Our Fertility Rate
“I think people have children for all manner of reasons- sometimes out of pure desire to nurture and witness life, sometimes out of an absence of choice, sometimes in order to hold on to a partner or create an heir, sometimes without thinking about it in any particular way. Not all the reasons to have children are the same, and not all of them are necessarily unselfish. Not all the reasons not to have children are the same, either, though. Nor are all of those reasons necessarily selfish.” - Elizabeth Gilbert
On a national and global level, the children we have or don’t have is the stuff of politics. The buzz about human fertility has changed. It has gone from fear of a devastating population explosion, to hype about a lowering fertility rate. The replacement rate for the human population is 2.1 children per woman, and in many areas of the world the birth rate has fallen below that number. I have heard a lot about it happening in Europe, but just the other day on NPR I was listening to a story about a school system in Boston (?) that is shutting down several of their schools, and the falling fertility rate was listed as one of the reasons (sorry, couldn’t find the link for this story, can anyone help me?) So now instead of a fear about not enough resources to go around, there is the socio/economic concern of a shrinking work force, a dwindling tax base, and an aging population. (By the way, I just read Children of Men by P.D. James. It made doing the research for this more interesting.)
Every one is pointing fingers. Who is to blame for this decrease in baby making? Some blame feminists and other selfish people who don’t believe in God. Others blame social and cultural structures and economies which give women major advantages as long as they don’t have children. My brother blames homosexuals (“well they sure aren’t reproducing!”) Certain groups are concerned because in America the white middle and upper class birth rate is declining, while the Hispanic birth rate is still firmly above the “replacement” rate. “They” are projected to outnumber “us” in a few generations. This puts me in mind of the Israelites in Egypt where the ruling class suddenly see that all those immigrants have multiplied and become more numerous than them. The politics of fertility extend so far beyond just an individual’s choice about how to plan their family. You need a population to have power and it is from the wombs of woman that you populate a nation, so governments are trying to figure out how to get their people to have more babies (see here, here, and here) .
The church is also experiencing a fall in the birth rate of its members. This information I didn’t get so much from looking at stats or reading articles (though I am sure they are out there). No, I am making this claim from observation at the dinner table during extended family gatherings. I am the oldest of eight children. And all of my aunts on my father’s side (the LDS side of the family) had six or seven children. Now as this plethora of progeny are growing up, marrying and having children of our own it is apparent that no one aspires to equal our mother’s achievements in the department of baby making. Only one of our set has reached the high-water mark of four children (the new six?) and they claim emphatically they are done! The rest hover around one, two, or three children. Interestingly, every single one of my siblings so far has halted at two and we are the offspring of the mother who’s womb out-performed all of her sister in laws’.
Now, to come down to the individual level. People have children for different reasons. I’d guess that not many reproduce out of duty to their country, but some do because they feel it is what God wants. Others because they love babies and kids, a few because they are pressured by family or peers, many for the joy, growth and learning that raising a family brings. Most people probably conceive for a combination reasons. Let’s face it, this is what we are biologically programmed to do; perpetuate the species. Here is my story: I got pregnant, in large part, because “it’s what you do” when you are Mormon and have been married for two years. The pregnancy was a time of anticipation and excitement, not to mention bonding with my sister and cousin who were also pregnant at the same time. I loved the feel of having life inside of me, I would sit with my hands upon my womb feeling the child inside turn, stretch and jump. Then our son was born and I experienced a long period of severe postpartum depression. The emotional toll was so bad that my husband and I considered that perhaps we should be a one child family. Well, it has been almost three and a half years since the birth of our son, and I have started thinking of having another child. My first reaction to these thoughts was “why?” In my journal I began listing pros and cons, explanations, motivations, considerations, possible pre-conceived ideas and underlying assumptions that could be informing this desire… I still cannot claim to be sure of all my reasons. What I can claim is a growing excitement about the idea of again bringing new life into the world, hope that I will be better prepared this time to cope emotionally, belief that although I really fall short as a mother our home is loving, safe, and a good one to bring another child into. I can also claim to be almost as scared stiff about this as I am excited, but the scales have tipped, the fear has lessened, the desire is growing, and so we are starting to make plans for adding another child to our family. Potential, possibility… and hope.
There you go. So, what things inform the way you have chosen to plan a family? What considerations, beliefs and desires are behind your decisions to have (or not have) children? And, if you feel so inclined, go ahead and weigh in on the topics of overpopulation, the falling birth rate, etc…
One serious consideration that PK and I have to take into account is not only caring for kids, but caring for elderly parents and possibly family members. With the ’sandwich’ generation dealing with both aging baby boomers and children, is it any wonder the people who can afford the costs of contraception are using it?
The conservative ‘pro-family’ ideology is clearly less important than the economic aspects of conservatism. If I could count on the kind of family friendly policies in the US that I can in Canada, we might move back. But to be honest, when a baby costs you 10,000 out of pocket just for the birth self preservation dictates that you limit your kids.
I’m just amused at the focus on the 1950’s all-american family with the self destructive policies of the early 1930’s being touted as the path to that.
Comment by angrymormonliberal — April 22, 2007 @ 10:49 am
Two years? You really are the new generation!
When I was pregnant with my fourth, someone asked me why I had children, and I had no idea what to say. To me it’s just the thing to do–get married, have a family. To some extent you could blame it on the Mormonism, but really, from the dawn of time that is the thing people have been doing–getting married and having families. Every time I tried to put some thought into how many I was having and why, I just got confused. I kept having more because I didn’t feel like I had enough yet. (Enough to suit me, I mean. I’ve never asked God how many I should have because I was afraid of what he might answer.) Now that I have four, though, I definitely feel that I have enough, and I am definitely, absolutely, positively done getting pregnant.
I’ve often wondered why Mormon families aren’t as big as they used to be. Four does seem to be the new six. Have we all turned into a bunch of wusses or something? I do think that child-rearing isn’t what it used to be. Babies and toddlers used to spend large portions of their day in playpens. Young children would roam the neighborhoods freely. Fewer mothers worked outside the home. Not that those days were better or worse, but they were certainly different. It seems like children are more high maintenance than they used to be. Or rather, it seems like more is expected of parents now, but there hasn’t been a corresponding rise in social supports, and I’m not talking about economics. People are so isolated. Parenting can be very, very lonely.
Comment by madhousewife — April 22, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
Ok I will most likely get the stones thrown at me for this… but I think today’s generation of parents are lazy… they want everything for nothing and they want it now or even faster than that. Technology has helped with those attitudes… technology can be good when used judiciously but nowadays people are so dependent up on it that they DON’T EVEN KNOW HOW to live without it! They want lots of gadgets, lots of money, and someone else to deal with their children all day instead of themselves. And they want all of this right away. They have children because “it’s the thing to do” or because their biology demands it and they don’t know why they do. But once they realize how hard parenting is and how time consuming and how much you have to sacrifice to be a parent, they say enough and call it quits. Parenting requires a lot of time, effort, patience, and hard work and even more so for a larger family. Today’s parents are not willing nor have been taught to have those skills or hard work ethic that is needed to raise a large family. {And when I say large, I mean at least 6 kids!}
There are of course exceptions to every generalization {and of course I am making generalizations} but I think people are not having nearly enough children. And this way of thinking nowadays will be passed on to their children who will in turn continue to only have 1.7 kids per family. Or some of them may be annoyed with the attitudes about number of children these days {as am I}, develop a backbone and not be afraid of hard work and learn to sacrifice now for their posterity and have themselves a larger family than average.
My .02 is that today’s generation of parents are lazy and selfish and they are teaching their children to be lazy and selfish as well.
Comment by Stephanie — April 22, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
Sociologists say that narcissism is on the rise in the modern generation. So that probably is a real reason for the decline.
But that doesn’t necessarily mean that 4 kids instead of six, or even one or two is the wrong choice.
Comment by Seth R. — April 22, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
Hey Stephanie, this isn’t a stone, I just want some clarification…. You state that laziness and selfishness are the reason that parents today are having less children… But do you believe the reason to have more is just to combat those tendencies? Or are you aiming for something else by having a large family? (ie: beneficial to society, necessary to please God, etc…)
could it just be that you were given the talents and circumstances and desires to have a large family, while others were not?
Comment by G — April 22, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
#2 madhousewife, I agree with what you wrote there. It is so true that parents these days put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be “perfect,” and have every waking minute of our children’s lives be enriching for them. We have to buy all the right books, take them to all the right little classes before they’re even old enough for kindergarten, and we have to certainly micromanage their school careers so they can enter the right college or university, etc., and be successful, so we feel successful. This wasn’t the norm a couple of generations ago, I don’t think — as you pointed out.
Parents these days have such high expectations of themselves and their children. Look at birthday parties as a case in point — when was the last time your little girl or boy attended a good old-fashioned home birthday party, with regular games and not a rented pony or slip-and-slide or whatever, with just cake and ice cream? No, many of us have escalated the birthday party scenario to the point where we spend hundreds of dollars at some venue where we feel we have to invite the whole class. In some ways, I think parenting these days has gotten off-track. We so intensely want “the best” things for our children, that we might sometimes lose sight of more important, non-material things, maybe. Things that previous generations offered their kids without even thinking about it. Maybe we’re trying too hard.
I am 41, have three little girls, and our family is complete. My husband had a vasectomy. We knew we wanted a family, knew we’d be good parents, and there was definitely a big spiritual component to all this. But our limits are there, and we recognized that two or three children would be best for us. I feel expended emotionally with three, and sometimes there’s not too much left over for my husband. I can’t imagine having more children. I think some women are able to have larger families, and that’s great. But that’s not me. I’m grateful to be living in a time when I feel okay about our choice, and I don’t feel pressured.
Comment by Catherine — April 22, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
Stephanie…Let me cast the first stone…lol
As a member of this generation (and a history major) it’s a part of our modern world to have ‘panics’ regarding the youth. This is less due to the young adults and more due to the parents. There are some very consistent aspects of youth culture that weave in and out of history from the early modern period to our day. Italian gangs in the 1500’s would put the Crips to shame. There are some extremely amusing letters written by a rich merchant to his son talking about how all his son is interested in is his hair, his parties and his swords (the Ipods of the day…lol)
To bring this into our century, the time in which the United States (and the world) had the largest number of children ever was during the 1950’s, a period of unparalleled expansion in social services. The taxes levied during this time would make Rush Limbaugh turn 30 shades of green. Sure there was social pressure, but the economics of having kids were really good then! A father could support a family on his salary alone, even with blue collar work. Furthermore, his salary and the salary of the president of the company only differed by a factor of 20 or so. Now, that same difference is between 100-300.
The 50’s created the widespread expectation that the father could support a family alone, previously this was only the province of the very wealthy. That expectation was built on the web of social programs from the New Deal. However, the 1950’s are an anomaly, not the rule. Women and children have always been a part of the ‘household economy’. What is going on now, is a extremely painful re-adjustment away from the wealth redistribution model of the 1930-50’s to a more extreme case of weathly and poor which is the norm for the world’s history.
My generation, with both parents working and waiting until their 30’s to have kids are no more selfish than well bred English women seeking their ‘Mr. Darcy’ or a girl in a singles ward dating only men who are financially competent. The sacrifices that are required to raise a family of 8 in a rural area in Alberta, include never driving a car newer than 10 years old (in an area where 4 wheel drive is essential 3 months of the year), having a 3 bedroom house given to you by your parents, raising all of the kids there, growing your own food, only wearing and playing with hand-me-downs. One parent works three jobs and is never home, the other is responsible fully for the care of all the children. The kids are almost all estranged from their parents… the point? Individual choice, i’d rather see more, happier families than just more kids
Comment by angrymormonliberal — April 22, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
Old folks have been saying that about the young’uns since Cain and Able got in a fight. My two bits says your two cents is highly inflated.
Comment by Peter — April 22, 2007 @ 5:48 pm
This is slightly off-topic, but . . . I am very happy with my one child. I thought we couldn’t have children, and I’d pretty much made my peace with it. Sure, every few months, I’d have a good cry, but then I’d remind myself of all the wonderful reasons to rejoice in being child-free: we could be selfish and spend our money on us; we could go out without having to worry about finding a babysitter; we could sleep in late . . . When I got pregnant, I was happy, but I also went through a period of mourning because I knew it would be the end of my selfishness.
So, here we are, a one-child family. After seven years of marriage, I have gotten so tired of the question, “When are you starting your family?” and I was stupid enough to believe that now everyone and their dog would be happy, because we’ve started our family. Nope. Now we are constantly asked, “When are you having another one?” We are happy with our one child. We aren’t in a hurry to have more. But it seems like nobody wants us to just sit back and enjoy the family we have.
Of course, I imagine once you have three children, you get the opposite question asked: “So you’re done now, right?” And if, heaven forbid, you go on to have four, or five, you are probably asked, “You do know how babies are made, don’t you? Do you know about birth control?” I wonder why everyone seems to think it is their business, how big or small a family is?
Comment by Quimby — April 22, 2007 @ 6:21 pm
I can always count on this blog to be interesting & provocative. This particular subject is interesting to me. I’ve been married for 5yrs. and just had my 3rd child in December. I have thought a lot about this particular issue and have seen similar trends within my own family. I am from a family of 7 children. My parents are converts so my parents’ decision to have so many was certainly questioned by extended family. I thought that my own personal desire to have a large family stemmed from coming from a large family. However, I have only one sibling who shares my desire.
I live in the South and most in my neighborhood (non lds) have two children at the most and can’t understand why my husband and I would have a 3rd because we already had 1 girl & 1boy. A neighbor has repeatedly asked if were would be moving to a larger home to accomodate this 3rd child. We only have 3 bedrooms-and apparantly this neighbor believes one should have a bedroom per child. funny.
Also, for G., I suffered from post partum after my 2nd child. I also took antideppresants for a time before having children. I went off antideppressants before conceiving my 3rd child. However, I took 1-2 1000mg fish oil capsules per day before, through out, and after my pregancy and haven’t had a problem at all. There are a lot of studies touting the many beneficial properties of fish oil for women & their unborn children. It may be something to look into.
L
Comment by L — April 22, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
I had my fourth child 2 months ago. My first-born turned six yesterday. Quimby, I am CONSTANTLY bombarded with questions of “so, you’re done, right?” and “Wow! you’ve got 2 girls and 2 boys –so you’re done, right?” and “You must be really brave” and “You must be sooo busy!” And yes. It is annoying and it hurts a little bit.
With every child we have had, we’ve made it a decision through prayer. I don’t see how it should be done any other way, really. Yes, many times finances, situations, jobs, age, health, etc. are all issues, but how many miracles come about by ignoring inspiration?
I know people have been upset with Stephanie’s comment, but she really has a point. I cannot, CANNOT! count how many times I’ve heard a mother say “I just can’t handle more than 2 kids. I’d go crazy. But my husband wants another, blah, blah, blah, etc. blah”. (And I should know, because I was one of them). Now is that because she really can’t handle more than 2? Or is it because she doesn’t want to handle more than 2?
I’ve often asked myself if we are done having children. I see my perfect set of girls and boys and imagine being finished. But then I get that nagging feeling that someone is missing. I count again. No, they’re all here. But then the feeling…and it is strong. So I can’t dismiss that we’re supposed to have more children in the name of economy/ecology/personality/health/situation/opinion/desire/hindsight/foresight/etc.
(fwiw –my grandmother was supposed to die if she had more than her 3 girls. She went on to have 5 more children; one set of twins in there. And she’s still alive today….just something worth thinking about…oh, and she had depression, too. Before medication. G, I bet if you really wanted to, you could do it. Pray hard…)
Comment by cheryl — April 22, 2007 @ 7:19 pm
Perhaps, Stephanie (#3), “today’s generation” also happens to be the oldest child of your generation’s six children and as such, considers themselves already having raised, at least in part, five children.
Comment by BWJ — April 22, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
I think there are a variety of factors involved. One thing that I know of personally is the rise in c-sections. That’s a topic for a whole other other post, but most doctors I know are extremely reluctant to perform more than 3 or 4 on a woman. And most women I know who’ve had them don’t want to have too many kids either, because the financial and physical costs of delivery are so much higher than uncomplicated vaginal birth. If you’ve had a c-section for your first birth, you’re not as likely to go on to have seven or eight kids. And a lot more women these days are having c-sections than were 20 years ago.
Personally, I do think the cultural trend away from enormous families (I’m thinking seven and up) isn’t too bad if it discourages people form having kids “just because they are supposed to”. Children deserve to have parents who love and cherish them. At the same time, I do think we have to be on guard against selfishness and materialism in our decisions. Kids can share rooms, they don’t have to have a billion toys and lessons, and all that. The cost of having a kid is very, very flexible and I have no problem with questioning what our society (often the media, which is funded by advertising, remember) tells me I “need” to give to my kids.
On a personal level, I have two children, a boy and a girl. I may or may not be having more, because I’m in the middle of a divorce right now. But my husband and I agreed on only having three or four. It was just the number that felt right and neither of us felt like having a big family (he’s youngest of seven, I’m second of five). Plus during my first pregnancy we discovered that I have a uterine abnormality that creates problems. Both my kids have been breech and so delivered c-section. Plus I had serious post-partum hemmoraging with the first and with the second I had a scary emergency delivery due to a placental abruption (most likely due to the weird uterus and previous c-section). So while our original decision was based partly just on our own feelings and preferences, it was then backed up by the realization that my body does not have babies easily.
Comment by FoxyJ — April 22, 2007 @ 8:24 pm
For what it’s worth, I’ve had a number of people tell me that the worst transition with kids is between 1 and 2. I know a number of women who had the first 2 close together, then needed to take a break before having more.
And since I grew up in California, I’ve realized that I find anything over 5 or 6 kids incredibly big. In our last ward I couldn’t understand why anyone thought the church’s birthrate was going down, because there were a number of families having their fifth or sixth child. But now that I think about it, I’ve rarely seen any families with more than seven these days.
Comment by FoxyJ — April 22, 2007 @ 8:29 pm
My mother had 10 kids and I really feel that that has been a gift to me–I learned a lot and enjoyed being one of many. I have heard some other (now gorwn) kids from big families complain that they felt neglected or just didn’t get as much attention as they wanted. I do not doubt that that is true.
I suppose we have all encountered families that seemed to be struggling. Some of these families may be struggling financially, emotionally (not enough attention), physically (not enough space,clothing, help getting teeth brushed, etc), whatever. Some such families have 8 kids, and some have 1. Maybe you would say that some struggle is good for you and will make the family unit stronger. Could be. But YEARS of struggle could also have a negative affect on the kids (not to mention the parents). Imagine growing up in utter chaos because your parents just couldn’thandle you all. That would not be a fun life.
I think we all need to make our own decisions about our family sizes. I know a woman who seems to me (and I know her very well) to be struggling with 2. She has admited as much–that she really is treading water to keep everybody up and at’em. Her husband is also opposed to birth control and I really fear for her and the future of her family. True, in the years to come she will probably develop coping mechanisms and her kids will become more self-sufficient and she might feel that she is ready for more. I just hope it doesn’t have to be the 6 her husband wants if she can’t do it.
I am a firm believer in birth control. I think every child should be wanted . I also think spacing is very important. We just had a baby boom in our branch and mine came with the biggest space cushion between this baby and my oldest with 2+ years. Not a huge gap of space, but it has been very appropriate for us. I have also been able to compare this with the other families side by side. Most had a spacing of about 18 months. Those extra 6 months between the 18 monthers and 2 year-old older siblings makes a world of difference. While my 2 year old is a great helper, my friends are chasing their mischeivious and (in some cases) resentful toddlers while nursing their newborns. Chaos. I love spacing. I love deliberate planning (although I am sure some surprise babies are nice). I seriously would love to do an enrichment group in my branch on birth control because so many people seem to be so clueless.
Comment by a spectator — April 22, 2007 @ 8:50 pm
Thanks for this post, G. This topic has been on my mind for a while. My husband and I recently decided to start trying to have our first child. I am full of excitement and fear! When I got married at 20, I wanted to grow up a bit more before having children. At 25 I did not feel in any way competent or ready for children. I am currently 28, and I still do not feel competent or ready for children. However, my body, mind, and heart are telling me that now is the time.
Stephanie’s post addresses a big concern of mine. I am worried that I am too selfish and lazy for children. Those feelings of inadequacy contributed to my decision to not have children before now. I have finally come around to realizing that I may be selfish and lazy, but that I have a lot of love to give. I am ready for the challenge of parenthood.
I am the youngest of seven children. I will probably have a smaller family because of timing, preference, and my experiences growing up in a large family. That may be selfish, but if you knew me personally, you would probably be relieved that I don’t plan to have a big family.
Comment by Kori — April 22, 2007 @ 9:11 pm
We don’t consider ourselves especially sensetive to the spirit but our birthing decisions were based soley on personal revelations that we could not ignore. We didn’t even ask - and yet there was that distinct feeling. We had both our daughters while I was still working on a bachelors degree - and I didn’t go to BYU. Ya - people ask in NYC, “was it an accident?”, “are you Catholic?”. The decision was not rational or practical - and its not easy! But we have never regretted it. And if we have anything to say about it - we won’t ever do it again. Why? Among many other things we want to be able to support them both in college. Its getting more and more expensive. Also, I want to be able to give them as much of my time and attention as possible. I’m not sure I could do it with 3 or 4 or 6.
Comment by cj douglass — April 22, 2007 @ 10:00 pm
I guess I don’t understand people who have ANYTHING to say about anybody elses decisions on having children. I would think that people who believe in prayer would understand most of all…but alas……
Comment by cj douglass — April 22, 2007 @ 10:08 pm
Growing up in a Mormon family that had more children than the parents had emotional resources for, I decided I would have only as many children as I could love and care for. Each of my siblings independently came to the same conclusion. And each of us has maxed out at 2, and we are all very devoted parents who work very hard at making our families strong.
I’m sure that other LDS families have other reasons for limiting family size. However, I am not in a position to judge. Neither is Stephanie [comment # 3]. Blanket statements about other people’s supposedly selfish and lazy decisions rarely bear good fruit.
Comment by Jenna — April 22, 2007 @ 11:10 pm
I hope when everyone reads my comments they understood as I clearly pointed out that I was speaking in GENERALIZATIONS. I certainly was not talking about any single person here on this board. I spoke of the parents of this generation in general. And I include myself in that generalization. I am not any better, any smarter, or any less lazy or selfish than the next person. We all are… because we are human. I was explaining that by following a trend of having smaller families tends to cater to the selfish and lazy side of our humanness {the natural man which is an enemy to God.}
However, my point was that this generation more than any other generation wants everything NOW and YESTERDAY and children are often seen as a luxury instead of a blessing. There is a saying that goes… “The Bible says debt is a curse and children are a blessing but people APPLY for debt and REJECT blessings.” That is how I would sum up this generation. That does not mean that every single person who has only 1 child or 2 children or whatever number is doing it for selfish and lazy reasons… but a large majority are… they want their new house, fancy cars, college degrees, and they want to be wealthy before they even think about having children. They want time to themselves. {Again I am speaking in generalizations here!} The prophet and apostles have spoken about this over the pulpit numerous times… not to postpone your family for college degrees, a new home, or because you think you aren’t ready, etc.
G {#5} - I don’t believe that everyone should have large families to combat those tendencies of laziness or selfishness. There are real legitimate reasons why someone should have a smaller family… health, mental, emotional, and sometimes financial that will require someone to have a smaller family and that is up to them and the Lord to decide. I am not about to tell any person how many children they should have, just as I don’t expect anyone to tell me how many I should have. However, I think that overall the majority of the attitudes about larger families continues to contribute to the laziness and selfishness overall in our society and will continue to lower the birth rate. The societal attitudes about families makes it more difficult to have larger families but I also think that is another reason to have larger families in general. The present attitude will only cater to the continuing of that attitude of negativity towards large families and continued laziness and selfishness. In general, I think more people should have more children.
As for me, I certainly don’t believe I am any better equipped to have a larger family than someone else. I admit to being lazy and selfish and have to work on those faults of mine everyday. I would rather sit on the couch and read a book or write or even sleep than change a diaper. But that is part of what having a family has been helping me with…it does help me learn to be less selfish. I take time for myself as necessary but I don’t feel that I have any special talents that others don’t. My circumstances are not any better than someone else’s. I have plenty of people in my life who believe I should have quit after baby #2 due to a medical condition that I have. Our decision for our family size is made with a lot of prayer and a leap of faith. We tried to use permanent measures to curtail the birth of more children at one point only to find out that God had other plans for us and both of us are grateful for following the Lord’s will and not our own. And now that we see what God had planned for us we are grateful for our choices and for the beautiful children we have now as a result.
#7 angrymormonliberal, I am certainly a member of this generation as well! I am not in an older generation panicking about the younger generation. I am making general assumptions about my own generation. I see what you are saying about society and history and the trends of society. However, I think the current attitudes about large families will continue to perpetuate those attitudes. Large families didn’t slow down because society made it more difficult… the attitudes of people towards large families shifted and the generation of no consequences came into play… a selfish generation who wanted sex without responsibility, drugs without consequences, etc and they have bred an even more selfish generation. Happy families are and should be something to strive for… we hear about this and learn about this at church all the time…this is what we all want for our own families but happiness is not the same for everyone. What you describe about the family living on the land in Alberta, growing their own food, and wearing and playing with hand me downs sounds great to me! I know plenty of families who live and do this everyday with super large families, who are happy and have a house full of love with children who are NOT deprived or estranged from their parents but have loving wonderful relationships. You are continuing a myth/attitude that other people in our society have about large families… that you have to have a super large house that they own themselves, 3 or 4 cars, brand new clothes and only organic store bought food with brand new up to date toys, in order to have a happy family. It really does come down to attitudes.
#8 Peter, my two cents are being made from a young’in and certainly not from an old folks position… I am 28 years old. My .02 cents says that I am the young’in and you are one of the old folks.
#9 Quimby, your experience is what I hear alot… especially the part about not wanting to have children because of not being able to be selfish anymore… I would be surprised if no one ever felt that way about having children at one point. I agree with you about the mourning process… a part of you is dying. I know I felt that way. I have also had the experiences that you explain so well… about people questioning our decision to have children, asking about our birth control practices and even from total strangers to ward members. I agree that it is not anyone else’s business as to how many children someone chooses to have. I am speaking in generalizations about society at large and not about any individual person and being on the receiving end of people’s attitudes about the number of children in my family, I do not intend in anyway to tell anyone here how many children they should or shouldn’t have. That is a personal decision between them, their spouse, and the Lord. I am speaking about societal attitudes at large.
#11 Cheryl, Amen and amen…
#12 BWJ, I am the oldest child of 6 children and sometimes feel that I have been raising kids since I was 10 years old. My parents were not perfect, they sometimes were sexist and selfish, but they loved us and family came first, and I love my large family now. I agree with #15 a spectator, that it was a gift to me to be one of many. I have friends who are oldest children of large families however and feel differently. I think it is all in the attitude.
#16 Kori, we are all lazy and selfish. Your concerns about whether you can be a good parent or not are most likely universal. I feel that way often! And I think you will be a great mother! Humility is a very desirable trait to have!
Whew… ok I am done… time for bed!
Stephanie
Mother to 5 children ages 15 months to 7 years, expecting baby #6 in Sept!
Comment by Stephanie — April 22, 2007 @ 11:50 pm
the hardest thing i’ve ever done (well, at least one of the very hardest) was to let go of the idea of having a third child. i had one of the most sacred experiences of my life in the temple years ago that led me to feel strongly that we had another child…but my dh is adamantly closed to the idea. he’s content with 2 and has never ever swayed in his firm resolve to have no more.
for a long time it didn’t seem fair that *he* got to be the one to decide when we didn’t agree on the issue. why is the person who doesn’t want another’s vote worth more than the person’s who does? but after long wrestles with the issue, i’ve resigned myself to it. (except for the times when i ache over it all over again and again).
one friend postulated that this may very well be the sacrifice i need to make to keep our family together–because it nearly ripped us apart. letting go of that “big family ideal” has been particularly hard for me (we both came from families of 5 kids and had discussed our expectations of being a 4-kid family when we dated/married).
but, i have my two little dreamboats, and am learning to be happy and in the present with them. and the clock is running out soon (some would say it theoretically already has—including my dh–julia roberts notwithstanding), and that will put the matter to rest entirely, but till then, it’s hard because i always have this tiny little hope for an accident or a miracle or a change of heart to happen. even though it’d be a big gap (caboose) baby at this point. and then i’d probably want a fourth so they’d have a buddy to grow up with…
all because of that experience in the temple. what do i make of that?
tough stuff. interesting thread. good comments. carry on!
Comment by blue — April 23, 2007 @ 12:55 am
wow, blue,
that sounds conflicting. and hard. you seem to be handling it well and doing what is best for the “existing” family.
getting agreement between mother and father in decisions of the number of children to have can be easily overlooked, but it is a huge issue!
for us, my husband has always been open to having more children (it was his idea to conceive #1) but he has been very understanding and respectful of my concerns and limitations.
I have a cousin in a similar situaltion to you, perhaps. she wanted a big family (meaning about 4) and he would have been totally pleased to never have any. they compromised with two, afterwhich he immediately had a vasectomy. I think she still wishes they could have more, but is satisfied to do the best with the family she has.
good luck
Comment by G — April 23, 2007 @ 12:57 am
i just thought i should add, for clarification, that the reason my dh hasn’t agreed to a third child, even though i’ve felt so strongly about this (to say nothing about the fact that he was with me in the temple at the time, and we shared the experience together) is that in the intervening years, he has lost his faith, and re-framed all the spiritual experiences of his life with a new “non-believer” lense. so it’s not a matter of him praying about it or anything like that. he simply doesn’t remember things the way he used to, and he’s able to interpret things differently now than he did when he was a believer. (his losing his faith was one of the other “very hardest” things i’ve adjusted to). ♥
Comment by blue — April 23, 2007 @ 12:59 am
someone alluded to this but i’m just looking at the changes from when i was a child to now, when my own children are in elementary school.
growing up i NEVER had a “play date”. we just played with the kids on our block. rarely we’d go to a church friend’s house (generally just for lunch in between sunday school and sacrament meeting back in the days before the 3 hour block was implemented).
we didn’t have much in the way of “extra curriculars”…my sister had music for a while but i just played by ear and didn’t get lessons. we did take those 4-6 week classes from the community center from time to time. i wasn’t involved in any kind of team sports till junior high. i paid for my own team expenses from my paper route income from third grade on (as if you could let your 3rd grader out alone these days) and later, babysitting money. and i rode my bike to practices and all the home games.
so it was a *lot less* chauffeuring then than today. now you have to drive to/from all over the county. it’s much harder to schedule life than when we were kids. to say nothing of funding things. my dh just did a mid-life change of plans, quit his professor job and is back in school for 4 years, followed by 5-6 years of residency (tiny pay, very long hours) before he’ll be contributing substantially. i make a very little on the side here and there while keeping the hearthfire burning and compensating for his unavailability. but kids today almost need to be involved in stuff…some kind of sport or art or music etc. because, well, EVERYONE around them is. there is actually an impact on burgeoning self-esteem for the tyke who doesn’t have any of the skills or experience that comes from having the opportunity to pursue something “extra” that they’re good at and into. at least at my house.
so i forego new clothes, shopping trips, cute home decor, dinners, movies, salon treatments, and other luxuries that many of my peers enjoy at this stage of life, because that movie could pay for an archery, soccer or piano lesson. i’m determined to not let our financial situation deprive our buckeroos from having opportunities to explore and discover their interests and talents while they’re kids. and i encourage them to be resourceful. to study and learn. to create opportunities to have experiences. aside from lemonade stands, they’re still pretty much anexed from earning money…but saving is a big focus.
the majority of our children today aren’t suffering from physical deprivation like our grandparents experienced during the great depression. they also don’t generally (farmers being an exception) have nearly as much work as their forebears to get done every day. but they *do* struggle in a way that i don’t think we had to as kids~~ just in terms of making sense of society and finding their “balance” in the world. resisting the temptations and facing problems that are SO much more prevalent and “acceptable” today than when we were young.
i think about my kids and what they face a lot. it takes a lot of one-on-one time to be really connected and in sync with how they’re feeling and what they’re struggling with and where their faith and psyche’s are at. i don’t know how that would actually be possible with 3 times as many as i’ve got. but i know some excellent mothers of large (eg: nine kids) families who really have it all together, and i salute them and honor them. just as much as the single sister, the sister who is doing what she can with no kids, the mommies with one or more kid(s), and especially the single parent moms.
any parent doing as much as they can to help the children in their lives to be happy deserves our gratitude and support. they make the world a happier, more beautiful, safer place for all of us, and i’m endlessly grateful to good parents everywhere! they made my childhood endurable, and now they’re raising children who enrich my lil’ darling’s lives.
Comment by blue — April 23, 2007 @ 1:09 am
I just posted on Veritas Life thread some research which reflects population trends.
I have always felt that as a husband/father it wasn’t up to me when or how many children we had. I happen to come from a “large family” in several senses! But I have allowed my wife to indicate what she felt was appropriate for her health etc It is sad to hear that couples can’t agree, but it is important to acknowledge we are all stretched to our limits with parenthood and additional children may be too much for all concerned.
I love the ones I have and they seem happy with each other, so have no complaints apart from clearing up after other people!
Comment by Max C — April 23, 2007 @ 8:32 am
Ah, another blessing of infertitltiy. I can stand on the sidelines and watch the fray . . .
A couple of thoughts anyway:
1) Until the 20th century people had lots of kids and lots of them died. Just look at genealogy [well, mine anyway.] Women would have 7 - 9 - 11 kids, 4 or 5 of them would die as infants, and another couple as children. Bearing and raising wasn’t the same thing back in the ‘good old days’
2) Yell ’selfishness!’ all you want, but if someone is being a good LDS steward, he/she should be thinking about resources and times and sanity and health and going to the Lord in prayer. [We are supposed to study it out in our own minds first. And letting what comes, come never seemed like our idea of stewardship to me.]
3) The world has changed. My g-grandma raised 10 kids On a farm. A different world for kids — they could run and go. They could wander here and there. Nobody worried about child molesters and kidnappers and CPS taking children away for being ‘unsupervised’. Nobody had to deal with the ‘car seats/booster seats until they’re 7 or 60[?] lbs rule’ like they have in CA. They lived most of their lives outside. [And this seems to be the case today — most of the big families I’ve met come from rural backgrounds.]
4) See the up-thread economic arguments. And add the one that children used to be an economic asset, now they are a liability. Maybe not the most idealistic way to look at it, but it is a reality.
5) Also — I’ve talked to people who come from big [8+] families. Some thought it was great, but most didn’t. They talked about being ignored, isolated, emotionally neglected, etc. True, most talk about how great the extended family thing is now that they’re grown and away from it all, but the actual descriptions of growing up sounded not fun. Sometimes bordering on neglect.
5) Why do some feel that sufferings is a sign of righteousness? Do/should we LDS really buy into the ascetic BS that ‘if you’re having a good and happy life, you must be a selfish ungodly person?’ Yes, we should all examine [with thought and prayer and common sense] our own decisions and lifestyle, but. Well, just but. Misery neither is nor should be considered next to godliness.
6) Finally, I’ve suffered enough ‘well-meaning’ ‘advice’ over the years due to my small family that I’ve grown very tired of [and short of patience with] all the assumptions and nosiness. On both sides. I’ll admit it’s easy for me to pull the plug on such nonsense — just mention infertitltiy and everyone gets all sympathetic. But why, oh why do I need to do that? It’s not their business. Or their place. I’ve stopped saying it, and if my ward members want to think I’m a selfish, materialistic slacker so be it. Their problem, not mine.
Comment by Not Ophelia — April 23, 2007 @ 8:52 am
I think that one factor of the declining birthrate is the fact that many mothers were not taught the homemaking skills that other generations were. Many families eat out a lot which would have been unheard of generations ago. Of course this is expensive. There are very few women who cook from scratch which is much less expensive.
I also think that in this permissive culture, many parents do not have the best management/discipline skills compared to other generations. The parents are well intentioned and well meaning, but they very frustrated with their children. If I allowed my children to get away with what some parents get away with, I would tie my tubes ASAP. I wouldn’t be able to stand having my children run the house. Also, many of todays parents may not have had very good examples of parents so they have to figure things out for themselves.
I am glad that I came from a family of eight. It may not have been the easiest at times, but there are advantages of being from a large family.
I do think however that all parents do not have equal parenting skills. There are some large families that are clueless about what their older children are doing. The older kids get into all sorts of trouble and the parents are so preoccupied they don’t know about it or want to know about it.
My grandfather came from a family of 17 children (not all reached adulthood). Probably only half of his adult siblings remained active in the church. I think it was the situation I described above. I have to ask myself “What is the point of having so many children if you can’t physically and spiritually take care of them?”
Someone mentioned C-sections. I agree that they limit family size. I just had my third child via c-section and my uterus will probably only hold out one or two more times. The decision will probably be simple whether I like it or not.
Comment by rk — April 23, 2007 @ 10:14 am
Not Ophelia (#26) and rk (#27) stated very well what I wanted to say at this point, so I won’t repeat their posts.
I’ll only add. One difference also may be that society is waiting longer to be married (early 30s compared to the midteens of the good-ol-farm-days). The decreased number of fertile years during marriage will yield further children as well as people planning _not_ to be raising children into their 50s or later. Children are expensive and retirement is expensive and budgeting both may require a sacrifice of one or the other.
Comment by Janell the Great — April 23, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
hey ya’ll, incase you haven’t noticed there has been some interesting overlaping comments between this post and “Veritas’s life” post.
I couldn’t resist appropriating this and bringing it over here. (shared by Ayra, #31)
Everyone look-Idiocracy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAYnc_-ddlw
(hope it works!)
Comment by G — April 23, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
Anyone equating righteousness with the number of children one has is idiotic. It’s unfortunate that we talk so much about personal agency but don’t seem to extend respect for other’s agency nearly enough. If the only socially-acceptable reason for not having (insert your prefered number here) children is infertility, that seems sick and wrong.
In talking to a friend who has eight kids, she said the worst comments/treatment she receives is when she’s in Utah. Interesting, no?
I wish that I had understood that many aspects of family planning aren’t entirely in one’s control. Are any of us really that self-aware that throughout the dating process we were planning on every eventual contingency? Man, I had no clue how meaningful it would be in my life that I was going to marry someone who had a strong work ethic. I also had no idea that, according to science, I had already kissed some of my most fertile years goodbye by the time that I did get married. Once married, I bought into the whole “you’re going to get pregnant the first time you have sex” school of thought. We decided that after my husband had started medical school and I began my graduate program that we should start having kids. Time passed. Sparing you the tedious details (okay, so the conception part doesn’t exactly fall under the rubric of tedious), I did finally get pregnant and had a much-desired child. I feel very lucky to have two additional children and hope to one day have more. My body isn’t cooperative and I am thankful for medical intervention.
I think it’s important to think about your own fertility and not worry about anyone else’s. I babysat for purely mercenary reasons, never once have enjoyed changing a diaper, and sit dumbly when people wax about their infants. The baby stage is definitely not my thing. But, like someone already noted, adults have to start somewhere so I’m putting in my time. My boys are delights and I am so so grateful.
But….know lots of women who have had breakdowns and are emotional wrecks. Some blame the number of children they have. Does that make them selfish or lazy?
Total aside but if you ever want to get a taste of what it must feel like to be a rock star (unless you are already a rock star and then I want a copy of your latest cd) take your baby to Europe. I was treated like freaking royalty when I toted my son around Italy, Austria, and Germany.
Comment by Lupita — April 23, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
“But I have allowed my wife to indicate what she felt was appropriate for her health etc ”
Max C #25, what exactly do you mean by ‘allowed’? I really think we need to be more careful about avoiding language that implies male ownership of womens’ bodies.
Comment by z — April 23, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
Re #27 (C-sections) -
If we hadn’t had a C-section on the first, we probably would not have had a second or third, and I would probably have lost my wife. The C-section on the first ultimately meant we had a C-section on the 2nd and 3rd.
My sisters-in-law all think it’s a big competition to have more children, to which I say, “Let them”. We’re happy with our 3. We wanted 4, but I’m not sure that’s going to happen at this point. The third was definitely a blessing from the Lord and at this point, we’re going to take what we’re given. (We waited so long for the third, we’d given up, and we’d adopted an attitude of not trying to have another but not trying to avoid it, either).
At this point, we’ve decided that we’ll take what we’re given.
Comment by queuno — April 23, 2007 @ 10:18 pm
I’ve always appreciated my dad who tells us (me and my sisters) that there is no pressure to have big families. He tells us all the time that we shouldn’t feel like we need to have more than 2 kids if we don’t want. (There are 5 kids in my family and both of my parents’ families.) He recognizes the cultural pressure and makes sure we know that there is no pressure coming from him. He acknowledges our mental health and tells us to be smart. I really appreciate that. I am glad I don’t have the pressure from my family to start popping out dozens of babies. My parents are also so encouraging of my waiting to have kids. I’ve only been married a year and a half, but I know there is no pressure to have babies right away (they have 5 grandkids, so it’s not like they feel that need). My husband is the youngest of 7, so he always wanted 7 or 8 kids. Now that we’ve been married for a little bit, we are starting to think 3 sounds like a good number. I think there is still cultural pressure to have big families, but I think it’s dying down a little. I am glad, because I think people are recognizing how important the mother’s physical and emotional health are.
Comment by cmac — April 23, 2007 @ 10:36 pm
Has anyone mentioned that probably a large reason we have smaller families these days is because we have the choice? Our grandmas really didn’t many birth control options. Our mothers had more, but it was so widely discouraged. Maybe if they’d had the choice back then, they would’ve had smaller families, too.
Comment by Quimby — April 23, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
quimby- yep…
I can’t help but wonder when people “blame” feminist for the drop in fertility (where I assume the implication is regarding birth control, and career options), that they aren’t actually “blaming” WOMAN:
“See what happens when you give them CHOICES?! They make the WRONG ONES!!!”
Comment by G — April 24, 2007 @ 12:25 am
I think it is responsible for people to recognize their limitation. I have 2 and at this point I don’t think I can or want to have more. I feel stretched and frazzled. Some days I just don’t want to do the mommy thing because I am so tired and frustrated, mostly with myself and my inability to be the fantastic mommy that I should be. And I should bring another child into this situation? Now that would be irresponsible. Know Thyself. Children shouldn’t be born into a home where a mother can’t handle them and especially when they are unwanted
My husband would have 20 kids, I however; feel done. In the interest of comprimise, we have agreed not to have another right now, but to not rule it out either. Marriage is often about doing things you don’t want to. I don’t think you should have another kid to make your maste happy, but I have not “won” this “battle”. I would be willing to have another kid just because he wants another, especially if I pray about it and feel its the right thing to do.
When I had my first son I went on Birth Control right away. Just 2 months after he was born I had a STRON feeling that I should have another. I told my husband, and he thought it was nuuts. He prayed about it and desided I was right. I got off my BC and 2 months later, I was pregnant. My first son had some development issues. Notice I said “had” issues. He was diagnosed with aspergers when he was 3. Today he is considered “main stream”. This is because he has a little brother with whom to socialise and learn appropriate behavior with. I know that having him was divine insperation. If I had waited and had to deal with My older sons problems I would not have had another! .
I know what it feels like to have divine inspiration to have more children, and I have not felt that since. My younger son is 4 now, and I still don’t feel like having another is a good idea, and most importantly, The Lord has not told me to have more.
Comment by just call me Cassandra... — April 24, 2007 @ 1:29 am
I was having a conversation with a member of a previous ward about having children, and praying about it, and she made the comment “God will always tell you to have another baby.”
Well, I didnt agree, but didn’t say anthing about it… it made me realize that there are probably quite a few members who feel that way- if you only have two children and feel that God has not told you to have more… you must not be listening close enough.
Rather sad, that. Sort of takes the “personal” out of “personal revelation.”
Comment by G — April 24, 2007 @ 11:23 am
I’m a convert to the church (I grew up VERY Catholic), raised by a feisty feminist mother. It was quite a struggle when I first joined at 15 to work out how I felt about motherhood and the idea of a large family (I’m a twin with no other siblings). At 24 (and married), it’s still a struggle. I have clinical depression and an anxiety disorder, and the thought of being at home with crying babies and demanding kids makes me panic. BUT–I feel very strongly that a) the Lord wants me to be happy and b) he will not give me burdens I cannot carry.
I grew up with a depressed, emotionally volatile father. I believe the stress of dealing with his unpredictable mood swings has triggered my own struggles with anxiety and depression. While I hope I’ll be a good mom (and while I know I have a lot to offer), I also know I’m at risk for creating the same unhealthy environment for my own children–especially if I stretch myself too thin. I want to be a good mom–but that may mean limiting the number of children I bring into my family. That’s something I’ll work out with the Lord. And that’s how it should be!
If the Lord says one or two kids is a-okay, then that should be good enough for me AND everyone else. If he tells me I can handle more, then I’ll take that leap of faith when I get there. But that is between me, my husband, and the Lord. And NO one else. We may think we know what’s best for each other, but there is no party line when it comes to prayer!!! Our inspiration is personal. Unless we have direct stewardship over others (parents over children, bishops over a ward, etc.) we have no right to tell other people what the spirit is telling them! (My sister, who initally hated my husband, insisted that I couldn’t possibly be hearing the spirit if I felt it was telling me to marry him–and she was wrong wrong wrong!!!)
On another note, I recently graduated from BYU, and I have to say–while most people my age publicly support the idea of families, the VAST majority privately admit their worries. Most want to wait a few years after marriage, and most prefer smaller families. Keep that in mind when you start to worry that others are judging you. We ALL have to work this out for ourselves–and we should remember that each family is entitled to its own inspiration.
Comment by Megan — April 24, 2007 @ 11:24 am
G, I really identified with your post. After having my first child I felt there was no way I could handle another one. I loved my baby so much; but I also would spend hours crying and feeling exhausted and actually a bit suicidal. I never would call myself depressed because I thought that’s how all mothers felt after having a baby.
It started going away when she was 9 months old, and was completely gone by the time she was 1.5—when I started feeling like I should have another baby. I too was completely surprised. I just didn’t think I could be a good enough parent to two children. I don’t think that was due to selfishness–I wasn’t worried about myself so much as the real quality of care my children would receive and how much my attitude and sanity would impact them. But my husband and I prayed a lot, and decided it was time to have another.
I just want you to know that for me at least, with the second baby everything was surprisingly much less difficult and more joyful. The depression was much less severe. For me, a lot of being depressed was due to utter exhaustion more than hormones, and I became exhausted because I would wake up 9-10 times a night to feed and comfort the baby. With the second, I knew all the tricks and routines to get her to sleep better, and that helped immensely. It also helped that I wasn’t adjusting to being home alone all day with a baby. I would take my older daughter to Mom and Me activities, the park, the library, and doing that gave me the opportunity to be with adults more often, which helped. Most of all, with the second baby I was a lot better at recognizing when I was about to slide down into the abyss, and I could more easily stop myself before it got really bad.
Just a couple weeks ago, I amazed myself by thinking about having a third baby. I think it’s been good for me to think of each baby as if she is my last, because that helps me to focus on what is really important for each child.
Comment by Day — April 24, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
As to the declining birthrate, I agree that is due to the ability to choose. There’s an article about how the birthrate in Ireland went down almost immediately after birth control became legal in 1979. I read about a skilled brewer in Italy in the 1500’s who had 14 children. Her husband was a debtor, so she sued in court and won a ruling to say that if she payed off his earthly debts, it paid her marital ones, meaning she didn’t have to have children anymore.
Comment by Day — April 24, 2007 @ 4:28 pm
What a wonderful thread! Thanks to every individual who mentioned that we should all mind our own business when it comes to revelation between ourselves and Heavenly Father about family size.
Practically everything that I could say has been said–almost–I still have to say a little. G, Megan, & Day [38 & 39] thank you for your comments about PPD, and Day, thanks especially for the hope. I had a very severe bout of PPD after my son was born. He’s 3 now, and I’m still having a really hard time. I am still trying to accept the fact that one will be all we might have. It’s been extremely painful and frustrating, but it’s the responsible choice for our family. (At least for now. Maybe when he’s 8? 14? Things may change–who knows?)
And one stone for poor Stephanie (except it’s not really a stone, more like rock candy). You said one thing that was wonderful:
[#20]
Bingo, girl. It’s always amazing where we think we’re going and then we find out where Heavenly Father really wants to send us. Surprise! I thought I was going to have at least five kids once upon a time. It’s tempting to judge the world at large by the lessons you have learned, but it’s baaaaad to do. When you make a generalization, you always hurt the innocent. But don’t take this the wrong way–so you pressed my buttons–big deal? Why do I have buttons at all unless they were meant to be pressed?
One last thing for any of you who are in a similar situation to mine–I found this scripture and found it to be of some comfort: D&C 90:25 “Let your families be small” (”small” cross-references to Mosiah 4:27, which talks about “it is not requisite that a man run faster than he has strength”). Thanks again for this post!
Comment by wynne — April 24, 2007 @ 5:22 pm
In my expierence with people asking about having kids, I have been offended by some of the crude comments. My husband and I had tried to concieve a child for 5 years. Every sunday form the time we married, we were asked why we didnt have kids. So many people had told me that it was a priorty to have kids in this religion. I was offended by this. It was not my fault that we couldn’t have kids. Why were these people judging me based on this conception? I just didnt want to tell them why we couldnt have kids. I have seem a few people leave the church because of nosey people condeming them on their decisions. My husband has an aunt who investigated the church after her 2 kids had died after giving birth to them. one woman asked why she didnt have kids,she told her and the woman went as far to tell her it was against our religion for her to not have kids, that she should try harder and therefor she couldnt join because of it. its been 12 years and this aunt wants nothing to do with the church.
For me wanting more kids I would jump in a heartbeat to have more. Its not just our decision to have kids thats affecting us. Its also health issues and what society is doing to us. Its a personal choice and I applaud to those who can have children.
Comment by Cathy — April 24, 2007 @ 6:31 pm
I’m the oldest of 10 kids, and have never once felt neglected or left out or as if I missed something by being in a large family. My parents are so great at loving us that if you asked any of us who their favorite child was, we’d all say ourselves. Large families do not always equate to a negative experience. I absolutely adore being part of such a big family.
#21 blue - My heart aches for you. I hope that someday you’ll be able to add that child to your family.
I can relate because…I found myself overwhelmed with the same desire. My husband and I planned on having a large family ourselves (although large to us meant four or five children). We were unable to get pregnant and stay pregnant. I’ve been to see some of the best specialists in the country trying to understand why I kept having miscarriages. I was driven not only by wanting a child, but by the fact that I felt a spirit and knew it was supposed to be part of our family. The doctors say that I fall into that 1% of the population who without rhyme or reason can’t get pregnant.
We finally made a very radical decision - we got pregnant via egg donation. We got pregnant with twin boys, who are now two months old. I actually sent a guest post here to FMH about it - I thought it’d make for some interesting discussion.
So G, I have to say that from my perspective, I very much envy you that this is a choice you get to make, that you get to decide whether or not you will or will not have children. I wish that I could be in the same boat, and that I hadn’t had to go through everything I did to have the children I have now, and I wish that more would come and join our family.
If we’re talking about why women are having smaller families, I personally think infertility plays a much bigger role than anyone realizes. Current stats have it at 1 in 6 families suffer from some form of infertility. I can’t tell you how many women in my ward confided in me their own struggles with infertility after I told them about mine. I had no idea that so many women were in the same position as me!
Comment by Hannah — April 24, 2007 @ 9:32 pm
Z # 31 thanks for pointing that out. Imperfect expression of our mutual decision being primarily taken by Maxine. I don’t recall any enthusiam on my part to have children, just a personal thing, it’s also difficult to explain the dynamics of 2 people making choices together in a brief post. I think I feel that Maxine by mutual consent lead us in decisions in this area of our life. I am perhaps unusual in that at the time I would have been quite content if we couldn’t have had children, but with hindsight feel happier now we could did and they are able to take up careers and business that is in the family as well as elsewhere. We are all imperfect in our expression sometimes. Thanks for pointing it out!
Comment by Max C — April 25, 2007 @ 1:57 am
My advice for managing a large family is to spread them out. Also keep up your health. Get plenty of sleep, eat well, watch your weight, and most important exercise. I promise your children will grow up and manage their own life. I married at 21. Had my first at 26, then 30, 36, 38 and now adopting a toddler in my forties. My oldest is self sufficient at 19. My high schooler does not require much except food, rides and of course love and attention. In return I have babysitter, a yard guy, and friend. The only time I thought I was losing my mind was a short time when #3 and #4 who were close in age were babies.
Blue #21. Be patient. No worries. Enjoy the kids you have for now. God has a way of softening hearts. My DH was (at first) against having #4 and #5; he obviously came around. There are plenty of orphans in the world who need homes. Most agencies and several countries will accept you until your early 50”s.
Comment by JA Benson — April 25, 2007 @ 9:34 am
I have been thinking and thinking about our next child. I want them when I see the smiling face of my one year old when I pick him up from his nap. I want them when I remember the powerful experience I had in the temple leading me to feel that there were more. I want them in the abstract. But in the world of the here and now dealing with my two older children and a baby who needs me a lot, I really don’t think I can honestly say I want them. And it hurts, because I want to want them. Some times I just don’t know if my sanity will really hold out for me. I want it to. I want to believe and to trust the feelings and promptings I felt, but really I think I might loose it. I’m talking from the perspective of one who has been to the edge and beyond in terms of sanity. Mental illness is a difficult term and a terrible curse, but hey, we all have our challenges. So what do you think is right for me? Not that anyone else can make this choice for me or anyone else, but your input might shed some light on the circles I’ve been running in my mind. Also consider this as a comment to say really, no one can judge another–they have no idea what the other is really facing.
Comment by CCC — April 25, 2007 @ 6:28 pm
wynne, if that scripture in d&c helped you, that’s great, but it’s not about not having big families. read the context. if having small families was the will of the Lord, most of us woudln’t be here.
i think the most important scripture with this topic is d&c 9 about studying things over in our minds and then praying to see if we got it right. sometimes our studying is right, sometimes it’s not. sometimes having another child makes sense, sometimes it doesn’t.
as a general comment, our leaders have expressed concern about dropping birth rates. we should not assume that it’s all ok.
stephanie may have overgeneralized a bit, but i would suspect that selfishness does come into play sometimes (perhaps more often than we want to admit), and is something we should all be careful of.
with choices come consequences and responsibility. with the use of birth control, if we use it, we take on more responsibility, and so we should be sure heaven approves. we can’t judge each other specifically, but if the leaders are concerned about trends, we should be too.
Comment by anonon — April 25, 2007 @ 7:30 pm
married 5 years. no kids. husband and i have no desire to have any. so we won’t. why is that such a problem for some people? if we don’t want children, we probably wouldn’t be very good parents anyway.. so why does this culture feel the need to force that on us? besides, humans are in no danger of extinction, i can assure you. taken a look at asia or africa recently? i don’t buy the dwindling numbers theory for a second. it’s a ploy to build the mormon numbers.
Comment by jb — May 3, 2007 @ 12:36 pm
Anyone who reads this needs to understand one thing. DO NOT ASSUME SMALL FAMILIES ARE BY CHOICE! I am a former Mormon, in my early 20’s, and I just found out that I could possibly never have children. I have wanted children my entire life. Especially now that I found the love of my life to share that with. I have Polycyctic Ovary Syndrome, commonly called CPOS. 1 in 10 women have it, whether they know it or not.
These days, with all the new cancers and diseases, it’s most likely our environment and the rise in these health problems that is decreasing fertility rates. DO NOT BLAME THE WOMEN AROUND YOU JUST BECAUSE YOU’RE “MORMON PERFECT” MOTHERS OF SEVERAL. Stop being hypocritical judgers of women who do not have children or have very few.
Comment by Lindy — November 16, 2007 @ 5:10 pm
This is an interesting discussion. There are a few reasons I see contributing to the size of families.
1.) Most families are not living on a self-sustaining farm needing the physical labor to make it run sufficiently.
2.) The c-section rates are about 25-33% for the u.s. national average. This greatly effects the choices on the size of your family since many mainstream OBs will not support a VBAC.
3.) The use of hormonal birth control has began to show it’s harmful effects in our generation 20 yrs and above. Artificial hormones mess greatly with our reproductive system and is linked with cervical cancer, breast cancer, and other types of cancer. Please explore all options before putting these harmful pills in your body!!
4.) Infertility in both men and women is high!! Some explanations for this are: environmental pollutants, inadequate nutrition for extended amounts of time (meaning it starts when you are a child), using your microwave instead of preparing a meal, not eating enough healthy fats, and overall emotions play a huge part in most illnesses.
*I am not pointing a finger at anyone who has or who is dealing with infertility issues saying they aren’t doing something right but only mentioning a few explanations. Some of my favorite books about fertility are:
Taking Charge of your Fertility by Toni Weschler
The Garden of Fertility by Katie Singer
Many women do not understand the natural cycle of their own bodies and these books are great references to start charting to see what your body is doing!!
Comment by spicyveg — October 8, 2008 @ 11:40 pm
Animals reproduce most when resources are most scarce and early death more likely. Thus, in the case of human animals, starving people in third world countries have huge families, while the rich in the same countries have smaller ones. “Selfishness” does not appear to me to be the most useful label to put on this type of behavior (unless you are referring to the determination of human genes to propagate). Small French families can be incredibly compassionate and close, while huge Indian ones can be incredibly uncompassionate and emotionally distant.
Comment by Joseph — April 2, 2010 @ 7:11 pm