Invisible Woman
The following was emailed to me as part of an invitation to a women’s conference in Salt Lake City, the same day as MWH’s Counterpoint Conference last November. In some ways, I agree with it, but in some ways I don’t and I feel a troubled disturbingness lurks beneath the beautiful facade.
I agree that some of the most important things we do may be, in fact, invisible, except to God. And that’s okay. But to actually be invisible to your husband’s co-workers? To be invisible to your children? To never receive any recognition at all that you’re helping to create something wonderful and good? If all recognition is inherently self-centered, why do we recognize anyone at all?
In fact, if most Christians would say that Jesus Christ accomplished the greatest work, built the most beautiful cathedral, so to speak (and they do), would they also say that Jesus was self-centered? Hardly. And we give Him lots of recognition.
Why is it such anathema for “good” Christian women to have recognition for their work, mothering or otherwise? We seem to have a better balance of “do good works in secret” and “visible recognition” for men–we honor, remember, and name things after and it is Good. Should women really aspire to be invisible?
Invisible Woman
It started to happen gradually. One day I was walking my son Jake to school. I was holding his hand and we were about to cross the street when the crossing guard said to him, ‘Who is that with you, young fella?’ ‘Nobody,’ he shrugged. Nobody? The crossing guard and I laughed. My son is only five, but as we crossed the street I thought, ‘Oh my goodness, nobody?’
I would walk into a room and no one would notice. I would say something to my family — like ‘Turn the TV down, please’ — and nothing would happen. Nobody would get up or even make a move for the remote. I would stand there for a minute, and then I would say again, a little louder, ‘Would someone turn the TV down?’ Nothing.
Just the other night my husband and I were out at a party. We’d been there for about three hours, and I was ready to leave. I noticed he was talking to a friend from work. So I walked over, and when there was a break in the conversation, I whispered, ‘I’m ready to go when you are.’ He just kept right on talking. I’m invisible.
It all began to make sense, the blank stares, the lack of response, the way one of the kids will walk into the room while I’m on the phone and ask to be taken to the store. Inside I’m thinking, ‘Can’t you see I’m on the phone?’ Obviously not. No one can see if I’m on the phone, or cooking, or sweeping the floor, or even standing on my head in the corner, because no one can see me at all. I’m invisible. Some days I am only a pair of hands, nothing more: Can you fix this? Can you tie this? Can you open this? Some days I’m not a pair of hands; I’m not even a human being. I’m a clock to ask, ‘What time is it?’ I’m a satellite guide to answer, ‘What number is the Disney Channel?’ I’m a car to order, ‘Right around 5:30, please.’
I was certain that these were the hands that once held books and the eyes that studied history and the mind that graduated summa cum laude but now they had disappeared into the peanut butter, never to be seen again. She’s going, she’s going, she’s gone!
One night, a group of us were having dinner, celebrating the return of a friend from England. Janice had just gotten back from a fabulous trip, and she was going on and on about the hotel she stayed in. I was sitting there, looking around at the others all put together so well. It was hard not to compare and feel sorry for myself as I looked down at my out-of-style dress; it was the only thing I could find that was clean. My unwashed hair was pulled up in a banana clip and I was afraid I could actually smell peanut butter in it.
I was feeling pretty pathetic, when Janice turned to me with a beautifully wrapped package and said, ‘I brought you this.’ It was a book on the great cathedrals of Europe. I wasn’t exactly sure why she’d given it to me until I read her inscription: ‘To Charlotte, with admiration for the greatness of what you are building when no one sees.’
In the days ahead I would read — no, devour — the book. And I would discover what would become, for me, four life-changing truths after which I could pattern my work: 1. No one can say who built the great cathedrals — we have no record of their names. 2. These builders gave their whole lives for a work they would never see finished. 3. They made great sacrifices and expected no credit. 4. The passion of their building was fueled by their faith that the eyes of God saw everything.
A legendary story in the book told of a rich man who came to visit the cathedral while it was being built, and he saw a workman carving a tiny bird on the inside of a beam. He was puzzled and asked the man, ‘Why are you spending so much time carving that bird into a beam that will be covered by the roof? No one will ever see it.’ And the workman replied, ‘Because God sees.’
I closed the book, feeling the missing piece fall into place. It was almost as if I heard God whispering to me, ‘I see you, Charlotte. I see the sacrifices you make every day, even when no one around you does. No act of kindness you’ve done, no sequin you’ve sewn on, no cupcake you’ve baked, is too small for me to notice and smile over. You are building a great cathedral, but you can’t see right now what it will become.’
At times, my invisibility feels like an affliction. But it is not a disease that is erasing my life. It is the cure for the disease of my own self-centeredness. It is the antidote to my strong, stubborn pride. I keep the right perspective when I see myself as a great builder. As one of the people who show up at a job that they will never see finished, to work on something that their name will never be on.
The writer of the book went so far as to say that no cathedrals could ever be built in our lifetime because there are so few people willing to sacrifice to that degree. When I really think about it, I don’t want my son to tell the friend he’s bringing home from college for Thanksgiving, ‘My mom gets up at 4 in the morning and bakes homemade pies, and then she hand bastes a turkey for three hours and presses all the linens for the table.’ That would mean I’d built a shrine or a monument to myself. I just want him to want to come home. And then, if there is anything more to say to his friend, to add, ‘You’re gonna love it there.’
As mothers, we are building great cathedrals. We cannot be seen if we’re doing it right. And one day, it is very possible that the world will marvel, not only at what we have built, but at the beauty that has been added to the world by the sacrifices of invisible women.
~Author Unknown
Uggggh!
Comment by fMhLisa — January 31, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
well, I certainly feel invisible in my family and in the church. I feel VERY visible and respected in my occupation - to the point where I appear on TV, in newspapers and magazines, as a respected authority. No one in my family or in the church notices me even when I appear on TV - or at least it is rare, especially in my family. Oddly I don’t think I care too much about being noticed - at least I certainly don’t live for the moments when I am publicly recognized - they pass very quickly. I have to admit I wish my family would notice and respect me more - and I wish the church would pay attention to its women more, however, mostly I am all about just getting the job done - the public notice seems a side issue. I guess I would make a bad celebrity
Comment by susan — January 31, 2008 @ 11:03 pm
Wow. I find this incredibly disturbing.
I understand the intended point and I kind of feel about it the way I’ve come to feel about President Beck’s talk. There is drudgery in motherhood, in homemaking, but that drudgery is not without purpose. There is holiness in a clean house, in a cooked meal. There is glory in creating an environment where the Spirit can dwell, even if it feels pointless to scrub the toilet again.
But once again, that good and beautiful and elevating point was lost in all the other rhetoric. At least President Beck never went so far to suggest that we are selfish and prideful if we want to be described as anything more than a nobody. Good grief.
Reading through most of the story I kept feeling sorry for the woman whose self-esteem had gotten so low that she couldn’t introduce herself to the co-worker. She couldn’t correct her child that she was not a nobody. She can’t stand up to her family when they ignore her completely. How sad that instead of finding worth in her efforts, she thinks it’s better to be a martyr. How sad that her children only have an example of invisible womanhood.
Comment by reese — January 31, 2008 @ 11:07 pm
When I had all of my children at home, I used to go around singing to myself, “I want to be a window to His love, so when you look at me, you will see Him. I want to be so pure and clear, that you won’t even know I’m here…”
And then I would cry and cry.
Comment by Bored in Vernal — January 31, 2008 @ 11:09 pm
That is some amazing glurge. If it makes you feel better, I found a source:
This excerpt from Nicole Johnson’s novel The Invisible Woman (W Publishing Group, 2005) is reprinted with permission.
Comment by Norbert — January 31, 2008 @ 11:22 pm
I think that kids that don’t respond when an adult speaks to them are RUDE. Not the legacy I want to present to God. But on the other hand I wouldn’t want anyone to know my name if these were the kids I produced.
Comment by gypsymom — January 31, 2008 @ 11:23 pm
This is my first post…here I go…I always say to my four little texans, and my one big texan, “The worst thing someone could say about me is…I can’t really describe her”. I love the Lord, I love my family, but I also love myself and deserve respect for my life, and my efforts. To me this nauseating little story is all about disrespect for a wife and a mother. Teaching your children (and husband) appreciation for your efforts in their lives is NOT prideful.
Comment by texasmom — January 31, 2008 @ 11:27 pm
In fact, if most Christians would say that Jesus Christ accomplished the greatest work, built the most beautiful cathedral, so to speak (and they do), would they also say that Jesus was self-centered? Hardly. And we give Him lots of recognition.
But He doesn’t need that recognition, nor did He ever. Always, everything He did, was for God’s glory and work and nothing else. To me, that is what this piece is about — doing what we do for God, and not caring so much about what others think.
That’s not to say that we encourage disrespect for women in their roles. Of course we teach our children (and maybe sometimes remind our husbands
) that there is nothing insignificant in a woman’s efforts to create a home where love, learning and the Spirit abounds. But in the end, the ideal is to be grounded enough in God’s love and in our own understanding of what we are doing that we don’t need external validation to feel worth.
That is what this piece says to me. Maybe you don’t like how she got there, but imo, I think the world would be a much better place if more of us were where she is — not FEELING invisible (I think that word has negative connotation to it), but knowing in our guts, in the core of our souls, that what we do as wives and mothers and nurturers matters.
And I do think that thinking that we deserve anything really is a misguided notion. God is the giver of all. He, and He alone, deserves the praise. (Eye single to the glory of God and all of that….) I know for myself, at least, when I seek only His approbation, I am much, much happier.
(Sorry, but this whole external validation thing to me is a trap and is one I am working very hard to overcome, so that’s where I am with that….)
Comment by m&m — February 1, 2008 @ 12:32 am
sorry, only the first paragraph was supposed to be italicized…obviously I missed a tag something somewhere.
Comment by m&m — February 1, 2008 @ 12:40 am
Hey, it’s plain rude and bad manners not to acknowledge someone when they are speaking to you. Pure and simple. Wanting to be treated with basic respect is not self-centered or prideful. I like the comparison to building cathedrals in some sense; we are often contributing to the building of our family in small ways and we will not see the “finished” product. But really. Invisible? So rude!!!
Comment by meems — February 1, 2008 @ 2:20 am
as i started reading this, i half wondered if this was going to end up being kind of a “sixth sense” ending…like she actually was a ghost!
but by the end it just seemed like a woman trapped in a circle of people who have never learned the beauty and necessity of gratitude in life. that’s sad.
Comment by Blue — February 1, 2008 @ 2:31 am
Yeah, this story felt a wee bit creepy and wrong to me. I don’t see anything prideful in just wanting to be acknowledged–and I find it endlessly annoying when people ignore me or my efforts. To consign woman’s role to one of invisibility is simply offensive. This is disturbing.
Comment by AYW — February 1, 2008 @ 3:14 am
Wretched. Sentimental. Dreck.
Comment by RE — February 1, 2008 @ 5:41 am
So, this was certainly a timely post. My (soon-to-be) fiance and I live on opposite coasts, post in graduate programs, and in our nightly “free-minutes after 9pm” talk last night I broke down sobbing out of what I could only articulate as “fear of being forgotten” by what I’m afraid will happen to me as “a wife in Mormonism.” It’s stories that this that really, truly, wig me out.
As a member of the church, and actually using my PhD program to study Mormon Women’s History, I find so much strength in our roots and our theology….but sometimes I’m terrified of what I term “cultural pressure” to conform to this invisibility.
Does anyone out there have any advice for a girl who loves her df (hee hee) with her heart and soul, but is paralyzed at the thought of losing herself as a potential SAHM?
And…I just would like to tack on at the end here, that I love this community even though I’ve only posted a comment one other time. You all give me so much joy.
Comment by Pinto — February 1, 2008 @ 8:18 am
that was supposed to be “both” not “post.” Whew. Sorry.
Comment by Pinto — February 1, 2008 @ 8:19 am
That was disturbing, and what I think is really disturbing is that we’re all supposed to find it heartening. Let’s make a pact right now that as women in the church we’re going to build each other up and recognize and acknowledge what we all do and make sure that nobody feels invisible, so that nobody has to find validation in stories like this one.
Not saying we’re not already doing that. But clearly, somebody’s not getting the message.
Comment by Joanne — February 1, 2008 @ 8:21 am
Pinto–Wow, I did the long-distance thing during my ms. Actually, I’m doing the same thing now in my PhD, post-marriage. Not so much fun. Good luck–I hope the distance brings strength to your marriage (it has in mine!).
Anyway, I’m not sure I buy the idea that within the Mormon church you slip into the shadows as a SAHM. I think our church does a lot at the very least socially to prop up the SAHM and give her recognition within a sphere of peers. In a lot of ways as a non-SAHM I feel very separated socially from other LDS women, just because I don’t have kids and can’t describe what I do without launching into a hugely long and unwieldy lecture.
I don’t buy this woman’s invisibleness–she’s pulled out a few incidents and made a lot out of them, but I doubt she’s as invisible as these anecdotes make her sound. Nobody gets up at 4 in the morning to make home-made pies, baste a turkey by hand, and press the table linens for thanksgiving (what mysterious source of unnatural energy does this woman have anyway–a super-secret nuclear battery charger?) for a bunch of people who are ungrateful for the effort. She should speak up for herself more, certainly, but I don’t believe in her martyrdom.
Comment by kristine N — February 1, 2008 @ 8:57 am
Crazy. I’ve got 4 kids under the age of 7 and they better as heck listen to me when I’m talking! My husband would also never be so rude to me in front of people, either.
This email sounds like it was possibly made up –like one of those chain emails people send around or a Mormon urban legend.
Fwiw, I see nothing wrong with doing things that take no recognition. I don’t. I do them everyday, but! It is impossible for a woman –any woman! –to do the things she needs to do everyday without some form of appreciation. And if women cannot expect recognition and love from the very people she serves (husband, children, friends), then how can she go on? Sure, God sees what we do, but He also knows that it’s not enough. That’s why He sent us to families and gives us relationships. We’re supposed to acknowledge and love each other!
Argh. I still can’t get over that her children would ignore her. My children are the greatest sources of “I love you’s!” and “You look pretty, mom” and “thank you’s”. I can’t imagine what life would be like without their simple but sincere appreciation.
Comment by cheryl — February 1, 2008 @ 9:15 am
So, is it bad that the stripling warriors named their mothers as the ones who had taught them so well?
There were a few sentences in that anecdote that I could relate to, but only a few. While it is true that much goes unnoticed of what I go through as a mother it can equally be said of anyone in my family. I don’t see every trial my daughter endures at school, or all the times she has suffered something unfair at my hands. I don’t see all the times that my husband worries about taking care of us or feels a failure.
I try to use Heavenly Father as my example of parenthood and I can promise you that when he speaks people listen, and if they don’t something bad usually happens. I run my family much the same. I speak and they listen. If they don’t hear me I speak louder. If they still don’t hear me I quietly get in front of them and let them know the consequences they will have to face if they don’t listen.
In marriage i think it should be as between Heaven;y Father and Christ. NEVER to they appear together without being seen as a whole. When I step next to my husband he instantly introduces me and will usually hand the conversation over to me till I’ve had my say.
There is nothing unrighteous in this. I’m not seeking recognition and praise, but I do demand respect, gratitiude, and obedience (from my children) because if they can’t do this for me, how can they properly do it for their father in Heaven. I also take it rather seriously that Honor Thy Mother and Father is a commandment. If you won’t let your children break any of the other commandments why would you let them break this one?
Ahh, I hope I’m not coming off as a drill sargeant mother here. I’m really not. And I’m sure this woman hasn’t raised a pack of selfish brats, she is just talking about her own perception. I just don’t think any woman should feel THAT invisible to anyone.
Comment by Liz — February 1, 2008 @ 9:22 am
#18 it may be made up but i have actually met women just like this. And i’m with you. My childrens’ “I love you”s and “You’re the best”s and kisses are the battery that leeps me smiling.
Comment by Liz — February 1, 2008 @ 9:26 am
I love that she recieved some witness from God that she was valuable, but I also agree with everyone else. I can’t believe she just puts up with her family ignoring her. Just because we serve our children, doesn’t mean that we can allow them to be rude. If she continues to let her children ignore her, they will ignore their teachers and their bossess. She’s doing them a disservice by letting them treat her this way. And her husband, mine would be on the couch that night if he were to ignore me like that at a party. I’m all for service, but come on, speak up for yourself.
Pinto- when my husband and I were engaged we were just starting into school. Our arrangement was that I’d put him through school first and he’d put me through later. My MIL made a comment to him about hoping that one day I wouldn’t say “my turn to go to school now.” When I heard that, I started having the same reservations as you. My husband and I worked through it though. He understands that I need things outside of the home to do (wether it be volunteer work, starting a kids program, or actually having a job). What was your fiancee’s reactions to your concerns? It seems like he’s already supportive because he’s okay with being apart for school. If he’s a supportive guy, then he’ll also see the work you do and appreciate you for it. He’ll understand when you take on projects outside the home so you can keep your sanity. If he’s not understanding of your needs, now’s the time to think about what you need, what you can sacrifice, and whether it’s worth it. But, again, from your post it sounds like it won’t come to that ; )
BTW I did start going back to school before my DH got done with his. My MIL hasn’t made a single comment yet. So, that was a lot of worry for nothing.
Comment by Tonya — February 1, 2008 @ 9:35 am
What a painful story!
I think the worst part of it isn’t that it is some poor woman’s experience, but rather that the organizers of a women’s conference would hold it up as a shining example of womanhood. Please tell me that it was a “Fascinating Womanhood” conference, not a official church conference.
Comment by Jami — February 1, 2008 @ 9:42 am
While I think this story is a little bit heavy on the martyrdom, I do recognize certain elements of it. I’ve met similar co-workers and my husband has behaved that way, but then, so have I, and we both just considered the other one to be very rude and inconsiderate. However, I do have two anecdotes, one from my childhood and one from my own motherhood, that do seem to line up with this. When I was in second grade, we drew a picture of our family and then dictated descriptions of what each family member did. I drew my mom into the picture, but failed to mention her in the caption. I talked about me, my sister, and my dad, but not my mom. Believe me, my mom let me know how much I had hurt her feelings by that. The second anecdote is from my own son. Right now, instead of big and small toys, cups, etc. he says baby and daddy toys, cups, etc. He doesn’t mention mommy ones at all. I’m not in his frame of reference. Of course, he doesn’t ignore me right out, or anyone else if I can help it . . . the others who have mentioned that are right, that’s just plain rude.
Comment by Lessie — February 1, 2008 @ 9:43 am
Ugh. I know women who thrive on those types of emails and epitomize and revel in that kind of lifestyle. And they feel so justified in it that women who do differently are “wrong.” Anyway, as a point about recognition . . .
I have an uncle who joined the church all gung-ho years ago and then later left and is pretty anti really. He’s recently made the (yes, somewhat cynical) point, “Oh puh-leeze. A God who wants everyone to constantly be giving him glory and attention and praise all the time? What’s that about?”
The comment gave me pause. We’re to be like Him. We’re to avoid pride. Yet, why (doctrinally-speaking), does he require glory and praise? Best I can come up with is that maybe it’s not so much that he wants/needs/has to have it so much as giving us the opportunity to express gratitude and practice humility? I don’t know how I feel about that explanation, but I am curious about the “whys.” (Not meaning this as a threadjack, but if anyone knows the doctrine behind this, I’d love to hear it).
As for the point about the story in the post. We have a mantra in our family–”It’s okay to think you’re great, but the minute you think you’re better than someone else, you’ve crossed a line.” Essentially, there is nothing wrong at all with recognition and appreciation and self worth. Nothing. In fact, it’s emotionally healthy. What becomes a problem is thinking that you’re better than others–that lends itself to being critical, holier-than-thou, and uppidy. There’s nothing wrong with appreciation. We could all use and share more of it, eh?
And, I love this site, too. I’m soooooooooo grateful for this site and the people on it.
Comment by Boquinha — February 1, 2008 @ 9:58 am
I agree with Liz; I’ve heard this sort of attitude in church. For instance, my daughter who is incredibly gifted and is likely headed for the Ivy League to study astrophysics (can someone who knows this sort of thing tell me the best program?) was in YW on Sunday, it was the “Preparing to Become an Eternal Companion” (which, of course, deals with the importance of cooking, cleaning, and sewing). The teacher asked Bekah if she helps out at home because she knows that I work, and she said actually, her 10-year-old brother is now in charge of cooking when I’m at class at night. “Oh, because you aren’t there, busy with activities?” No, because it’s his job, even when his sisters are there! Because he likes to cook and is good at it!!!
But things like this story and lessons at church strike me that yes, our work as women is to raise children: boys who will change the world and girls who will grow up and have boys who will change the world and girls who will grow up and have boys who will change the world and girls who . . . . . . It frustrates me that my daughters are not encouraged at church to think of the possibilities. There should not be lessons on cleaning, cooking, and sewing in young women’s Sunday lessons (maybe as a Wed. night activity). I think we do teach our young women that women should be invisible.
Comment by TAG — February 1, 2008 @ 10:11 am
If you follow the link Norbert sent, there’s a link to the website of the author, and from her website’s name I think we can safely assume she’s not LDS. She’s also ditched the banana clip for her hair. Still, if this is getting passed around in Mormon circles as words of wisdom, it’s definitely worth picking apart.
My thoughts are about the same as Liz’s — our kids get their first idea of their relationship with their heavenly parents through their interactions with their earthly parents, and if they don’t learn to express abundant gratitude to their parents, they likely won’t learn to give thanks to Heavenly Father, either; likewise, it’s hurtful to kids not to be taught to listen and show respect to their mothers. I do know people who I think have problems with ingratitude and self-absorption at least in part because their mothers gave too much and expected too little. Often when I have gone out of my way to do something challenging for my kids, I will point it out to them and tell them I did it as a labor of love — and it seems to me that this is helping them learn to do loving things for me and for each other. I don’t think any of this is selfish, since love, sacrifice, and gratitude all add to the glory of God.
I do think there are women who get up at 4:30 to make pies — and, frankly, I think they are doing it for themselves as much as for anyone else. At my house on Thanksgiving day we all get up around the same time (8 or 9-ish) and we all work together to get the meal to a standard we can all be happy with. (This year we did potluck with family, and my husband agreed to be in charge of the turkey, while I made apple crisp and pomegranate jello.) If my family really wants something like homemade pies made by me, I’m usually willing to oblige, but I expect them to help make the time for me to bake by helping in other ways.
I also agree that we all (husbands, kids, and mothers,) do things that we don’t get recognition for — and that we need those things to go towards our reward in heaven. But I agree with all of you who’ve said that there’s a big difference between accepting that we’ll never be repaid (on earth) for all our sacrifices, and between raising our kids (or training our husbands) to be rude and ignore us.
Comment by Zina W — February 1, 2008 @ 10:12 am
hmmm, some of this “unappreciation” is simply our societies emphasis on youth to the detriment of age and experience - also our society’s not teaching children to respect and honor their parents as we should. this is a worldwide problem - even in cultures where tradition and respect for parents and age is heavily emphasized, this is changing - probably not for the better. we need to do more towards teaching respect - respect for women, men, children, parents, etc.
Comment by susan — February 1, 2008 @ 10:28 am
TAG–I went to Caltech, though not for anything even remotely physics related. It’s a very intense place, and, at least 8-12 years ago when I was there, it was especially difficult to be there as a woman. That said, if she’s interested in a truly unique college experience, Caltech is definitely one. The only places that are similar are MIT and the University of Chicago. The program there will kick her butt and teach her intellectual humility, but will also, if she works hard and does well, prepare her incredibly well for the very difficult life of an astrophysicist. If she can make it there and maintain her interest in physics, she’ll be in good standing to pursue an academic career. The odds are a bit against her, though–something more than half of undergrads come in thinking they’ll do physics, and something less than 20% actually did when I was there (I know, a measly 20%).
In some ways I loved my time at ‘tech, in other ways I think I would have been better prepared by a program that started more basic. Even so, I would suggest she at least apply and if she gets in, send her to prefrosh weekend (since she’s female there’s financial aid available for that–one of the perks of gender!)
Sorry for the threadjack. Oh, and if she goes someplace like ‘tech, she’ll definitely not have to worry about being ignored
Comment by kristine N — February 1, 2008 @ 10:31 am
I try really hard not to be judgmental every time I read this blog, but so many of you writers are way too sensitive and spend way too much time looking for ways to criticize the church. In no way was this story/talk saying that you should aspire to be invisible. It isn’t saying that every single thing you do and say should be invisible. Of course there are going to be times when your husband/child/co-worker/whoever says, “Thank you” and recognizes good and selfless things you’ve done. It’s because of those times that they actually recognize you that you can live with all the times they don’t. Most of the things we do as mothers and even just people aren’t going to recognized and that is okay. That is what that story/talk is saying, not that it should be your goal in life to be invisible. Seriously, stop thinking that every talk in the Church is attacking you. It’s annoying.
Comment by Sarah — February 1, 2008 @ 10:50 am
The first time this was sent to me, it made me want to puke. Reading it again this morning, same reaction. More than anything, I am disturbed by people who read this and think it is inspiring. It is drivel. Ingratitude is disgusting but an easy habit to fall into, especially if children aren’t gently corrected from an early age. I do not aspire to be invisible yet the hollow once-a-year motherhood appreciation days do nothing for me. One of the most important lessons that I learned from a friend before I had kids was that NO ONE like a martyr. So, don’t become one. Great life lesson….
Comment by Lupita — February 1, 2008 @ 11:04 am
Yah, I think Joanne’s hit it right on when she said the most disturbing thing about this is that’s it’s being held up as an ideal. And while this example may not have been uniquely LDS, we do seem, as a culture, to buy into it. Like the “Window to His Love” song that Bored in Vernal talked about. I remember singing that for New Beginnings when I was in YW. And while I appreciate that the intent is to teach us to give glory to God (and I think we should), does that mean our own existence should be unseen?
Compound that with the relative (not absolute) “unheard-ness” of women in the church, doctrinally, organizationally and culturally and you have a person who seems to be both invisible and silent. Not unlike our (lack of) understanding of our Heavenly Mother.
I do not think the gospel intends this, church culture notwithstanding. I think we should think twice about promoting invisibility or quietness, at least in a gender-specific way, and focus more on the divine nature, divine skills, divine everything that we are. God is not invisible and we are meant to be like God.
m&m,
I didn’t say he did. And certainly He did what He did for Love, no for recognition or for what others would think of Him. But WE need to recognize him. And even God considers ingratitude a rather serious sin, a la D&C 59:21. Maybe He doesn’t “need” it in the way we think of need, but He does want it, perhaps only for our good. And maybe He likes being appreciated, too.
I agree with you up to the last sentence. I even agree that that’s what the author was after. But I think this piece is dangerous because it reinforces some really unhealthy notions, already discussed.
Comment by Artemis — February 1, 2008 @ 11:04 am
No one likes a martyr, that is.
And, had this actually been a talk in church, I would have probably lost it in the aisle.
Comment by Lupita — February 1, 2008 @ 11:08 am
This is definitely true. If we’re driven by social recognition, most of us are going to be severely and continually disappointed.
I think the negative reaction to this talk, however, is more that women are generally not recognized for their accomplishments. Indeed, women’s accomplishments have traditionally not even been considered to _be_ accomplishments. Additionally, women have been forced into narrowly defined roles of wife and mother that prevent them from showcasing their natural talents in other areas. _That’s_ what’s annoying.
Comment by ECS — February 1, 2008 @ 11:12 am
Oh, and no, this was not a church-sponsored women’s conference.
Comment by Artemis — February 1, 2008 @ 11:16 am
The idealization of invisibility bothers me because it reminds me of how I felt — desperately longing to disappear, to be completely annihilated — the winter I tried to kill myself. So maybe I bring my own baggage to what may be nothing more than melodramatic tripe, but geez. It’s just not healthy.
Comment by RCH — February 1, 2008 @ 11:23 am
Tonya and kristine N– Thank you so much for your responses and encouragement. And best of luck kristine in your own studies right now.
Like Tonya guessed, I am pretty much zero percent concerned about the supportiveness of my fiance. I suppose I’m mainly worried about feeling pressured by those outside of my marriage to fit a mold that I’m afraid might not make me happy. And, I’m afraid of the prospect of alienation from other women if I don’t really “fit in.”
I know, I know…these are the obvious concerns of a site like FMH. I guess it just never really hit how much of a worry it is to me until I had the opportunity for marriage. Single women in the church do go through many difficult trials, but they also have a great deal more freedom in self-perception I believe, since we are a “fringe demographic.”
But, like I said, this community is such a wonderful thing in my life because it shows me that I could still find friends that would want to discuss and work through some things rather than summarily label me as an uppity, feminist, boat-rocking renegade out to destroy the family and impose a cosmos-destroying moral relativism on the faithful. lol…well that was just melodramatically fun to write.
You know, maybe at the heart of it, I’m afraid to leave my cushy, diversified, urban-based singles ward RS because I have an irrational fear of a probably misinformed stereotype of what the RS in the little Oregon coastal town where I will be moving after our marriage could be.
Sorry this is long. I guess I just don’t want you to think I’m elitist or self-righteous…I realize that all these fears and concerns about the life of married LDS woman and as a potential SAHM are only based on my own mother’s example and assumptions I’ve created from growing up in the church I think. I guess I just want to say that I’m so grateful for you all who show me that we can all choose our own ways and the diversity we can create is beautiful.
Comment by Pinto — February 1, 2008 @ 11:25 am
#14- I know just what you mean! only my fear didn’t come until after I had my first child. But I panicked about becoming just a mother who spends all day catering to the demands of my family. I had only gotten my Associate’s degree, so to combat it I have just gone back to school. I think the way to avoid becoming that (or just feeling that you have become that) is to make sure you do something for you. Use your education for something, even if it is small at first or only part time while your kids are little, or whatever. But make sure you are doing something to stretch your mind.
#25- This kind of thing makes me incensed!!!!! I can remember the day when I learned that I was supposed to erase all my hopes and dreams to become a wife and mother. And I was supposed to be happy about it as if that is all there is to live for. Does anyone remember that seminary video with the girl who was really good at science and her teacher wanted her to go to college and do something great, and she was really struggling with the decision. Then she found her mom’s diploma and found out that her mom had also been really brilliant but had given it all up to be a mom. I hated that video! I wish I had been able to realize then that this was skewed thinking. At the time I just accepted it because the church was teaching it. And, so were my parents.
Although to some extent it is right to do things expecting no recognition and build our cathedrals, I agree that the general idea of letting yourself become invisible is dangerous. Women don’t need that kind of encouragement. We are pretty good at self-efacement already. We need more inspirational stories about how to demand respect from those around us.
Comment by Sarah S. — February 1, 2008 @ 11:31 am
M&M I agree with this statement. We should let our love and understanding of God’s love be the motivation and steam behind the work any of us do. I do not think that this precludes demanding recognition and appreciation for work done on the behalf of others.
Consider how Christ tells us about the Atonement at every chance he gets (and instructs us to do the same). Why does he do that? So that we can understand his love for us, so that we can gain a testimony of his divinity, and so that we can apply the atonement to our lives. A woman can bear testimony to her children and family, of the divinity of womanhood, the importance of women’s work, and the love that she has for them, by showing them the work she’s done, and demanding appreciation for it.
Recognizing the work of others is a learned behavior, and is something parents should teach their children. In this fictional family the husband and children will not learn to respect and love this woman and they will suffer for it. She might feel better about herself, but the husband may lose respect for his wife, and the children may never learn just how valuable a woman’s divine work is. The people I know who are most disrespectful of women and motherhood (they also tend to be the most rude in general) are the people who had a silent martyr for a mother.
Comment by Starfoxy — February 1, 2008 @ 11:49 am
First of all, I’d love to meet you, Artemis. I just moved to SLC from the DC area, and I’m dying to meet people. I have a conflicted view of Utah, my home state and also my greatest challenge.
Secondly, I am struggling with the invisibility of women, and I could relate to this article in a very poignant way. I am not a silent martyr, nor do I intend to be, but I’ve noticed how society quietly packages you away once you’ve borne a child - relegating you to the oh-so-dreary (in their words, not mine) task of being a wife and mother.
Truth is, I LOVE being a mother. At 29, I feel my life is only beginning as I watch my infant daughter - I am bursting with joy to share the world with her - it’s good, wonderful, ugly and sorrowful parts - all of it.
My experiences before I bore my daughter serve to weave a tapestry of the world which she will see - I have lived (what I consider) a vibrant life full of new experiences and bumps and scrapes and wonderful things.
But now I am invisible - to everyone but my little girl, and I’m not sure I was prepared for it.
Comment by Sara — February 1, 2008 @ 12:05 pm
BTW.. I have always HATED the song A Window to his Love. I don’t know why, but every time my mom started singing it, I cringed. I did get the opportunity to sit in Sis. Dalton’s (of the YW pres) home, and I could see what the song was talking about. I could actually feel God’s love for me through her. But, the song makes it seem like we should be invisible. Even with Sis Dalton being a “window to God’s love”, I was still able to see her and the work she does. I was able to see that it’s through her hard work that she is so loving to others. I can see that she has love for me, and that is why God’s love comes through so strongly.
So, now I do see the point in behind the song, but I still hate the song.
Comment by Tonya — February 1, 2008 @ 12:29 pm
Tonya, I’m with you - I see the point, but I think God really wants us to be so much more than (figuratively) a piece of glass! I’ve always hated the song, too!
Comment by Ana — February 1, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
Starfoxy, your comment is just . . . brilliant.
Thank you.
Comment by ella avery — February 1, 2008 @ 12:43 pm
My friends just pointed out how much he loves Proverbs 31:10-31, and I had to admit to him that I don’t like it. It makes women look like they are supposed to sacrifice everything and work hard by themselves and all they will get is praise. Personally, I don’t want praise, because I don’t believe it. I want people to work alongside me, even though they know that I can do it alone. Praise doesn’t mean much. As one of my professors would say, “We all know about repressing women by putting them on a pedestal.” As for dealing with feeling invisible, I have no ideas . . . pray for God’s love?
Comment by Michelle — February 1, 2008 @ 1:05 pm
I don’t believe that about invisibility. My mom was the very center of our house. How could the invisible part be true when there’s the expression “If Mom isn’t happy, no one is happy.” seems so very true?
I agree that the behavior of her family is extremely rude. It isn’t okay to be ignored like that, and it isn’t inevitable.
—
I’ve loathed “A Window to his Love” since I was a missionary and a companion decided to read all of the lyrics to the song as a spiritual thought after a dinner appointment. That had to be on the most uncomfortable five minutes I’ve ever experienced.
Comment by Katie P. — February 1, 2008 @ 1:06 pm
Praise is not the same thing as recognition.
Comment by Artemis — February 1, 2008 @ 1:43 pm
I’m looking at this site for the first time ever today, curious after a mention of it in an Associated Press release about the (im)probability of women’s roles changing in the church with a change in the First Presidency.
The self-abnegating feminine ideal is not even remotely LDS in origin; however, Victorian moralizing coincident with the restoration period dies hard. (For the first known incident of a female having her wings quickly clipped for putting herself forward, see Eden, Garden of.) I have to laugh at the outrage directed at the story’s author for her “martyrdom.” She not only has to put up with a caddish husband and selfish brats, but her fellow women blame her for the faults of her family. Right back to Freud, our favorite for insisting that every untoward thing is Mom’s fault–and that a wife’s role is really an extension of that mothering.
The male ego demands aggrandizement and acknowledgment, either internal or external (preferably both) or a man fails to function productively. This is a fact, rather than a criticism. (We don’t censure our bodies for needing food, exercise or fresh air, we simply provide them.) Do women need the same reassurance? I really don’t see why not. We are made to feel guilty for having needs–and then are blamed for feeling guilty rather than overcoming external pressures. What I see among women is a constant self-questioning, second guessing and self-judging that no self-respecting male would waste his time on. Can we help it? I don’t know, and I judge myself harshly for not being able to answer the question…. (Hey, folks, the last statement’s a joke!)
Comment by Di-yana — February 1, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
I can’t believe she just puts up with her family ignoring her.
BTW, I agree with this part, but frankly, I feel like people are sort of missing the forest for the trees. The key message to me was doing what we do for God. (Or maybe I’m just looking at it differently because of that meeting I just went to, where pieces of this (and only pieces) were combined with our doctrine of motherhood and the power and influence we have.)
Starfoxy, note that I acknowledged that there is nothing wrong with teaching our children and others to appreciate the roles of wife and mother. But demanding recognition of them? I don’t agree with this idea. Sounds too force-based. We teach principles and let them govern themselves, no? I’ll let my husband step in and teach them respect. Me “demanding” it only undermines the respect they might have, imo.
In the end, to me it’s about the motivation. Do we seek recognition because we need it, or do we seek it because we care about those around us rejoicing in these roles as they should? Do we care about them really understanding our love for them, or are we so starved for their love that we need to hear their recognition?
Do you see what I’m driving at? The Savior never needed recognition for His own sake — never! It was always about giving glory to God and about helping others understand the love entwined with what He did.
I have told my children of the sacrifices I have made, because I want to bear testimony of the importance of my role as a mom and wife, because it helps them know that I also believe education is important (and I tell them and try to involve them with how I am keeping my saw sharp even as a SAHM). [To those who think that being a wife and mother means forgetting every talent you ever had and fading into the background misunderstand the doctrine and also the power and influence in wifehood and motherhood and sisterhood. And also the teachings about the role and place of education for women. But to me, it’s exactly the need to be in the foreground somehow that I think is wrong. Why is it perceived to be more valuable to have a diploma or to be crusading for a cause than to be home changing diapers? It’s NOT.]
Anyway, sometimes, I am starved for reinforcement and I seek recognition because I frankly just need a pat on the back. The more I really believe that God doesn’t miss a thing I do, and the more I do all for Him, the less I need that recognition, and the less I care about what others think. But that won’t take away the passion I have for teaching principles about a woman’s role, because I believe it is in truly understanding the doctrine of a woman’s roles and influence that behavior and attitudes will change — not by focusing on what *I* do, but on the importance of the *role*
I think we need to separate these two things out. And I think it all depends on our motivations.
Comment by m&m — February 1, 2008 @ 2:44 pm
Pride looms large amongst many other problems with false martyrdom. This sort of thinking merely leads to another sort of ridiculous competitiveness–not who can accrue the most recognition, but the least. Whoever feels the most beaten down, the least appreciated, can therefore comfort herself with the notion that she is the best mother…a rubric still dependent upon comparison with others rather, really, than to one’s previous self. Franky, it also strikes me as blasphemous–yes, we are supposed to emulate Christ, but we are not Christ. Becoming invisible in His name makes a mockery of the entire notion of not hiding your light under bushels of any variety, including bushels of domestic goddesshood.
I’m quite happy with the notion that I can serve as a window for God’s love, but if I am such, then I’m stained glass that colors divine light with my own passions, temperment, and patterns of talent and adoration. And that’s ok-dokey, for God requires not that I become insubstantial trompled upon will-o-the-wisp for His sake, but rather the best me He and I can jointly create. Should my actions be motivated by the lust for recognition? Certainly not. But let’s face it, recognition does more than validate the self-worth of the recognized. It perpetuates the notion that those things upon which we bestow adulation deserve respect. Without recognizing women’s work as work, we unwittingly perpetuate the notion that her efforts are essentially worthless. No thank you.
That said, there’s more than one archetypal female martyr. The Marie Barones of the world, constantly bemoaning their martyrdom with loud voice and using it to manipulate others, annoy me more than the quiet types who get lost in the fray. They stem from the same deep need to know we’re valued, however, so we need to write some controlling metaphors which pander to neither school of thinking. Anybody notice how men don’t seem to require such controlling metaphors? Maybe it’s because they have actual control. (She says, feeling a wee bit cynical).
Comment by Janet — February 1, 2008 @ 2:45 pm
Maybe for some people. For others, working for social change or earning a paycheck is more important than changing diapers.
Comment by ECS — February 1, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
When I think of my mother possibly reading this story, and finding comfort in what ungrateful selfish wretches me and my sisters were as teenagers, it makes me weep. When I think of some grown daughter thinking she needn’t apologize for teenage selfishness because it might invalidate her mom’s notion that she was a Cathedral, it makes me want to scream. The author’s intent was no doubt good, but for the love of my mother (a silent, long-suffering woman) this sort of prose drives me batty.
Comment by Janet — February 1, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
We are made to feel guilty for having needs–and then are blamed for feeling guilty rather than overcoming external pressures.
Who ‘makes’ us feel guilty? We are not passive beings that are ‘made’ to feel anything. Guilt as designed by God is supposed to turn us to God, period. If we are feeling guilty and are then doubting ourselves or looking to other people to reinforce, then in the ideal, we are missing the power of the Atonement in our lives and misunderstanding guilt. That isn’t to create guilt, but just to point out what I think we often miss in discussions like this.
Of course, learning to trust and apply the atonement is a lifetime journey but it seems to me that as long as we keep talking about our ‘right’ to feel validated, I think we may limit the opportunity to learn that. To me, that is a key purpose of life.
This to me is one of the greatest ironies of discussions like this. We want to empower women, but we turn to mortal ways to do that (Stand up! Be counted! Demand recognition! Don’t put up with disrespect! Don’t succumb to invisibility!), rather than talking about how to tap into our true, divine power and potential, getting that power from God. We will never find our true power, imo, until we figure out how to do that.
Comment by m&m — February 1, 2008 @ 2:54 pm
I take your point regarding motivation, M&M, but as I said above, we aren’t Jesus (and I’m betting Jesus and God find comfort in our love, the only thing besides our will we can actually offer them). A person starved for love does need recognition, and nobody should ever be so starved that they have to beg. We need to create a society where a woman needn’t beg for appreciation of what traditional female work requires, rather than telling the woman that she simply shouldn’t feel bereft. Doing the latter actually dismisses both her pain and her work, which I’m quite confidant you would not want.
As for diapers, well, certainly for the child involved changing a dirty nappy outweighs changing the over-reaching system which conveys the notion that the diaper-changer is of no value. But in the long run, said kiddo and mama will benefit from revamping a social order which denigrates unskilled labor just because it does not require a diploma. It’s a lot more complex than creating a “diplomas outrank diapers” or “diapers outrank diplomas” false dichotomy. Anyhow, we can do both. (Ok, maybe not chronically ill you and me, but others.)
Comment by Janet — February 1, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
also, standing up and being counted can BE part of God’s will. In fact, i imagine it’s God’s power that gets people recognized a big portion of the time. After all, “Stand a little taller” isn’t Donald Trump’s mantra. Should we be good in order to get praise? Nope. But we should realize that being good involves being present, being counted, being seen as examples of God’s will. Another false dichotomy lies at the assumption that we can either receive recognition or find our potential via God. The latter can and should lead to the former.
Comment by Janet — February 1, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
Pretending that enormous social pressures do not exist is like standing in the surf and blaming oneself for being knocked down by the waves. We like to think our agency makes us enormously free beings; recognizing limitations makes us more free because we’re operating in the realm of reality rather than wishful thinking. How many women do you know that are brimming with self-confidence? Once you get to know most women well, almost especially the most accomplished, you find they are riddled with self-doubts and misgivings, soldiering on in the face of near-immobilization. It’s time to unload the backpack!
Comment by Di-yana — February 1, 2008 @ 3:05 pm
We need to create a society where a woman needn’t beg for appreciation of what traditional female work requires, rather than telling the woman that she simply shouldn’t feel bereft.
Read my comments again. I don’t disagree about society.
And I’m not saying one should have to beg for love, or trying to dismiss those who feel starved for love. Please take a step back to see what I am saying. How can talking about tapping into and trusting Christ’s love be dismissive of someone’s need for love?
This woman in this story realized that God’s love was enough. Ultimately, all things must fail except the love of Christ and I would much rather that we as women learn to go as quickly as possible to HIM for that love rather than having to wait for imperfect people around them to fill that need.
In the meantime, we should seek to be kind and loving and helpful and encouraging. But we should always seek to point others to Christ for that neverending source of love and comfort that He can be, if we let Him.
Comment by m&m — February 1, 2008 @ 3:05 pm
But we should realize that being good involves being present, being counted, being seen as examples of God’s will.
Janet, note again that I haven’t dismissed this possibility, but have pointed out that it’s all in the motivation. Do we stand up for God’s sake, or for our own?
Comment by m&m — February 1, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
I think that idea about not knowing who built the cathedrals is over-stated. Surely, at the time the cathedrals were built, people knew who the best artisans and craftsmen were. They didn’t just pull in people off the street to do that work. History doesn’t remember their names, but their contemporaries knew they were doing good work.
I don’t care if history remembers me, but my DH and kids ought to know that I do good work!
Also, plenty of people are willing to work anonymously on great things now. Quick, who invented the cell phone? Name four scientists who contributed to getting the astronauts to the moon. Who developed the measles vaccine? Who put together the 911 emergency response system? Those are all good things that were done fairly anonymously.
Comment by Melinda — February 1, 2008 @ 3:08 pm
No, those were all things that were done for a paycheck!
Comment by Di-yana — February 1, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
To me, one of the saddest things about this story was that her friend brought her such beautiful encouragement and recognition, and she turned it into this…ickiness. I know a woman like this, a woman who I love, who is smart, funny, well-read, and, dang it, interesting for more than her ability to pop out kids and wipe noses, but she continously ignores those talents and qualites that Heavenly Father blessed her with. Instead she proudly wraps her identity around her husband and children and ignores her own needs and desires and goals. While I agree that motherhood is a beautiful and wonderful part of being a woman, I don’t think that the goal should be to lose yourself in that identity.
And, m&m, while changing diapers isnt less important than changing the world, it also isn’t more important. I think that the argument of which is more important or right is a slap in the face of our foremothers who labored, fought, and bled for the rights and options that we have now.
Comment by McMommy — February 1, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
Yes, and my argument is that we do both, and that God commands us to do both.
Comment by Janet — February 1, 2008 @ 3:31 pm
I think of the mothers of the prophets and all the work and teaching that they did, unseen, to their children and families. Think of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and what she must have done. We can’t let ourselves feel usless and unseen. The kids DO notice, you will find out as they get older. I remember how my mother taught us the Golden Rule. I tried hard to teach it to my children and was wondering if they ever heard me. Then one day, I noticed a paper that my daughter wrote telling about the Golden Rule and what it meant to her. I said to myself, “She actually heard me.” We are noticed, it just doesn’t show most of the time. Keep tying those shoes and fixing those peanut butter sandwiches. Thanks for writing this post, I loved it.
Comment by Lucy Stern — February 1, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
M&M–I just realized how dismissive that last comment might look. I’m not intending to be that way. I have read your comments thoroughly and still believe you’re creating a an either/or situation which needn’t exist. Unfortunately, today isn’t a good day for me time-wise, so I’m going to have to bow out for the time being. I’m not trying to hit-and-run your careful comments, though–just busy!
Comment by Janet — February 1, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
McMommy, You can be a mother and do things that you like. I enjoy ham radio, baseball games, cooking, and weekends away with my husband. YOU can be a mother and have fun too.
Comment by Lucy Stern — February 1, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
Lucy, unfortunately I have no idea what I like to do aside from being lazy, reading books and wasting time online. All of these hobbies take alot of concentration, though, so lots of times my poor kids wish I would be a bit more of a martyr, Im sure…
Comment by McMommy — February 1, 2008 @ 3:47 pm
A man would characterize those things as “regenerating, research and engaging hearts and minds in debate about the key issues of our day.” Alas, we are put on this earth to serve others. As the joke goes, What are the others there for?
Comment by Di-yana — February 1, 2008 @ 3:56 pm
M&M- I should have made it clearer that I intended my thoughts to be a supplement rather than a challenge to yours. I agree with just about everything you’ve said, but felt that I should add that seeking recognition can be about *more* than soothing one’s own ego.
And as far as demanding goes, in person I’m very soft-spoken and indirect (it drives my husband nuts) so when I ‘demand’ something it means that I ask for it, out loud, clearly, without equivocations, and waffling.
Comment by Starfoxy — February 1, 2008 @ 4:59 pm
#58 - And the cathedral builders were working for free? Not very many people work on things for free and without any form of recognition (but, there are people who do! even men
).
The article itself plays on false notions, what five year old would REALLY say nobody? most of the five year olds I know would proudly proclaim that it was their mommy.
Can you name the architects and construction workers for any of the buildings near you? (minus temples or the tabernacle) Unless they have studied architectural design, most people have only heard of (or can remember the name of) Frank Llyod Wright.
My mother in law is almost an invisible woman - and even tough that’s what she does, I’m sure she doesn’t like it. I feel terrible whenever we visit, as she refuses to let me help her with anything… if anyone has any advise, I wouldn’t turn it down! I’m not sure how she got that way, as her mother is one of the most visible and outspoken people I know (running her own radio station for years, canning MASS amounts of food in her tiny apartment, killing chickens .. she amazes me).
I agree with most of you that allowing yourself to be treated in this way will train your children to either be invisible, or take other people’s achievements for granted. Even though I love my husband, I was astonished after we first got married and found out what sort of expectations he had as to what he would and would not help with around the house. I can directly link this attitude to the way his mother raised him. He was one of those boys who went away to collage, and brought back a car-full of laundry for his mother to wash when he got home.
Since we both work, I have forcefully relegated some of the household chores (mostly laundry *cackles*) to him, and he is also starting to offer to help on his own. Some of the people in my ward would be screaming heretic if they knew (citing various scriptures in the NT - I think they use those scriptures to comfort themselves in the face of their own predicament), while others have encouraged me.
After all that rambling, there IS a great amount of joy that comes from helping others without them knowing what you are doing for them. But, that doesn’t mean that their is no reward - seeing or knowing the joy and happiness that the recipient of your gift will have, without needing to feel like they have to pay you back is priceless. For a huge number of people, Christ’s atonement works like this for them. Eventually they will know who helped them, but they are rewarded whether or not they sang praises to him in church on Sunday or not.
And, there is ALSO great worth is serving others, and letting them know who you are. I know many lasting friendships that were begun with acts of service. But, you can’t make friends with someone who you don’t know, and friendship and love go BEYOND service.
Off Topic
Regarding Caltech and Astrophysics, my cousin is currently attending Caltech for that very reason, and last I talked to her - LOVES it. I’m not sure of the exact male:female ratio now, but I’m sure it is skewed to a large extent, but not so much that it would be uncomfortable.
Pinto, I currently live in central southern Oregon - your fears about the backwardness of many of the small communities here are not unfounded. If you are moving to a town with more than 20,000 people, you should be fine. Otherwise, you need to start praying now! I should say, there are a lot of great people, even in the smaller towns, you’ll just need a little help finding them, and bringing them out of their protective shell.
Comment by Sophia — February 1, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
Pinto
I’m sure I’m way too late in answering your post, but thought I’d give you some encouragement. I too had the same fears as you and I think it depends so much on your fiance/husband. Is he they type to understand your independence and intelligence? If so, I think you’ll be fine. My husband knew right from the start what he was getting into. He really doesn’t fit in to Mormendom either, so he’s fine letting me rock the boat when needed.
Until men are also encouraged to be OK with being invisible in this church, I will find this article and so many others like it degrading, humiliating and sexist. Don’t fall for it ladies.
Comment by Melissa — February 1, 2008 @ 5:31 pm
I got this in an email forward a while ago, and I’m so glad I’m not the only one who was troubled by it.
McMommy said:
This was my thought too. The only part of the story that resonated with me was the words of her friend telling her that what she was doing mattered. But then she seems to take that experience and turn it into the message that there is some inherent value in the invisibility of our work, and that’s simply ridiculous. It’s nothing but a negative for our society as a whole that “women’s work” is not valued and recognized. As others pointed out, even the cathedral builders were paid for their work! And no doubt the people around them knew what they were doing as it was happening, even if their names are unknown to us now (and not all of them are).
My least favorite line was, “We cannot be seen if we’re doing it [our job as moms] right.” Ugh. Isn’t that what they say about servants?
Comment by Chelsea — February 1, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
Sophia– Hmmm…maybe we can have a two-person snacker in Oregon sometime! I’ll be on the South coast or Eugene or somewhere in between (still working that out).
Comment by Pinto — February 1, 2008 @ 6:07 pm
Please understand that some of us don’t agree. One need not be so utterly self-effacing in order to appreciate God’s approval of our work.
I don’t think it helps anyone to assume that there are “fairies” who do the work. I think it’s a good thing for everyone in the family to understand (when they reach the age of being able) that there is a lot of work involved in raising children and managing a household. It’s just more honest. It doesn’t detract from our humility in the least.
I’m particularly concerned at the story about the carved bird and the notion that God sees (and approves of) such things.
I was really impressed with Elder Ballard’s talk a year or so ago entitled O Be Wise in which he stresses priorities, simplicity and delegation. Although the talk was about church service, it also applies to mothering when he said,
This reminded me of my own mother, who never let us into her kitchen, so that she could retain control (and play the martyr).
Sadly, I know some moms who are so devoted to their families that they go off the deep end, ironing sheets, cleaning in places nobody sees (which I do appreciate is important for those with allergies), making ornate birthday cakes, etc. To me, this is the mothering equivalent of carving the bird. And I am not sure God is pleased at frittering our time away when we could be doing other more worthwhile things.
Comment by Naismith — February 1, 2008 @ 6:45 pm
I am someone who regularly over does. I throw elaborate parties around a theme that is carried through everything from the invitations to the dessert. I handmake whatever I can, including overly elaborate handouts, my jewelry, and whatever birthday presents I can. When my stake threw a nativity festival and my ward couldn’t come up with enough nativities to submit, I made 12.
But, I do this for myself! I do this to show off/ use my talents (depending on the situation and my motivation). I do it because I think it’s fun. And I try to be very honest with everyone around me so that I don’t project an impression that anyone needs to “keep up.” Because I have plenty of my own areas that I am lacking in.
What I think is tragic is when we get confused with what is necessary and what we choose to do to compete. It’s almost as if some of us don’t know how to distinguish our worth without some sort of ranking, so we compare and contrast and compete, which diminishes us all.
Comment by reese — February 1, 2008 @ 7:13 pm
I haven’t read the other comments yet, but I’m glad to see this post. A friend forwarded this e-mail to me last fall and I found it disturbing for the same reasons Artemis did. I sacrifice an awful lot, but I darn well better not be invisible to my husband or my children! (And I’m not, thank heaven.)
Comment by Pam W. — February 1, 2008 @ 7:25 pm
CTR - i dropped by your blog and i just wanted to let you know that you are friggin’ hilarious and i bookmarked you. you have an awesome blog and believe me, i know blogs, embarrassingly so. and i completely agree with you about the wednesday letters. any group that required me to read that tripe again would be immediately and unceremoniously abandoned.
Comment by chandelle — February 1, 2008 @ 7:42 pm
Reese, when I read your comment (#72) I got all inspired to do more. I even stood up for a moment and contemplated turning off the computer. Then all of that motivation made me whoozy, so I laid back down and decided to be more awesome tomorrow.
Comment by McMommy — February 1, 2008 @ 9:43 pm
I think it’s a good thing for everyone in the family to understand (when they reach the age of being able) that there is a lot of work involved in raising children and managing a household. It’s just more honest. It doesn’t detract from our humility in the least.
Good grief. I really don’t want to say again that I agree that we ought to teach the importance of our roles and what goes into them, but there I go. I said it again.
And I am not sure God is pleased at frittering our time away when we could be doing other more worthwhile things.
And I sure hope that no one thinks that I think we should be ‘frittering our time away.’ For the record.
And, m&m, while changing diapers isnt less important than changing the world, it also isn’t more important.
Actually, our prophets through the decades have said that nothing is more important than the work we do in our families. That has taken me a long time to really believe, but I’m really beginning to believe it.
Comment by m&m — February 1, 2008 @ 11:19 pm
Hee! McMommy!
It sounds much less impressive if I tell you I’ve managed to also spend a grand total of six hours putzing around on the computer today. But I’m resting for the baby, right? Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Comment by reese — February 1, 2008 @ 11:27 pm
What I think is tragic is when we get confused with what is necessary and what we choose to do to compete. It’s almost as if some of us don’t know how to distinguish our worth without some sort of ranking, so we compare and contrast and compete, which diminishes us all.
Well said.
Comment by m&m — February 1, 2008 @ 11:40 pm
Okay - I know this was awhile ago that I talked about my daughter’s YW class, and maybe it’s a threadjack of sorts, but it was bothering me that I couldn’t think of what the fourth thing that was taught in this lesson about being an eternal companion which was really about being a housewife. I asked her, and the four principles that were talked about in the lesson were cooking, cleaning, sewing, and WASHING!!! As in washing clothes. That just seems the most egregious of all of them. I don’t mind doing the laundry so much, but I sure as hell don’t see it as having to do anything with being an eternal companion. It has to do with being in a family and everyone doing their part.
Washing!!! I mean, do we get to use a washing machine or do we have to use a washboard and basin?!
Comment by TAG — February 2, 2008 @ 1:41 am
“We cannot be seen if we’re doing it right”
I could entertain the concept if it wasn’t an essay about a “good woman” but also about how to be a good man, a good friend, a good home teacher, and a good child by becoming as unnoticed as possible.
Maybe if it had an example of how Jesus, our perfect guide, savior, and exemplar, fulfills his role most perfectly if nobody knows he was ever there, and instead of thanking him and showering him with love and 2-way communication, we ought to not even answer if he asks us to turn down the volume on one of our modern toys.
I’ll consider this outlook on humility and service when half the text references a good father held up as an ideal whose kids “[can’t] see if I’m on the phone, or cooking, or sweeping the floor, or even standing on my head in the corner, because no one can see me at all. I’m invisible.”
Sounds like a great family, a real joy to be a part of. sure.
Comment by cchrissyy — February 2, 2008 @ 1:54 am
Mormon Mommy Wars has a great thread about celebrating the little things we do. FWIW, I like it when women can share with each other their little triumphs and efforts, because that to me strengthens and encourages us and reminds us that the little things matter.
Maybe that can help communicate that I am not advocating being completely self-effacing as Naismith seemed to want to suggest I was. That makes it sound like I think we should all be silent martyrs in sackcloth and ashes, deliberately hiding all that we do in a paranoid fear of being proud, or to play the martyr to somehow do something (not sure what). That’s not what I was suggesting AT ALL. And if you read the piece as suggesting that, then I don’t agree with that approach.
I don’t understand why it seems so outrageous, though, to suggest that I do think that too often, we as women are not secure in who we are or what we do and rely too heavily on external things and praise to validate ourselves (this is evidenced by how often we get into a tizzy about what someone has said, and we get either depressed or defensive), to actually determine our worth or the worth of what we do. I think we often forget who we really are and what worth there really is in the day-to-day, often-unheralded work and service (because we are in denial if we think that it isn’t often unheralded) that is the stuff of family and home life — and just LIFE. (We all have this kind of stuff to do, regardless of where we are in our lives at this time).
But I think we can be grounded in that bigger picture view of who we are and what matters most and what value there is in what we are doing, and still have fun with exercises like what they are doing at MMW. We can be optimistic and rejoice in goals set and accomplished. I love it when we can do that for each other in a spirit of sisterhood, and when we can do that in a spirit of reminding ourselves how much power and influence we have within the walls of our homes and the realms of our lives. So I never was advocating dismissing or abandoning others and withholding love or reinforcement or encouragement.
But I will still come back to why we ultimately do these things. “Let your light so shine that they may see your good works” — and why? “to glorify your Father, who is in heaven.”
I realize that not everyone likes this little piece from the post, but I am not talking about the piece, I’m talking about general principles.
Hope that helps clarify my thoughts a bit more.
Comment by m&m — February 2, 2008 @ 2:00 am
I did laundry until after 11:00 tonight. I cleaned all three bathrooms after the kids went to bed. Then I laughed through these posts. I’m not invisible. I will inform my children that the maid did not show up last night, the work was done by me, and now it is their turn. I’m glad you are all out there so I could smile before going to bed.
Comment by allie — February 2, 2008 @ 2:55 am
I haven’t had the time to read all the comments, so sorry if this has been discussed, BUT
Has anyone noticed that our relationship with Heavenly Mother is/has been relegated to exactly this sort of ‘invisible women’ status we’re talking about here?
Ya, I’m disturbed . . . .
Comment by Not Ophelia — February 2, 2008 @ 9:50 am
that was going to be my comment, somewhere along the lines of: perhaps those of us who feel (felt) devastated because we had no feminine example of godhood have indeed had the ideal example to emulate all along: invisibility.
Comment by chandelle — February 2, 2008 @ 10:00 am
Not Ophelia and chandelle — seriously, nothing in our religion wounds me as much as that single point. and nothing makes me more angry (and I should say there are justifiable kinds of angry) than the fact that we have no feminist thealogy because those who have tried to research and write them have been “discouraged.” From what I’ve read and the work I’ve done, LDS cannon and history has SO much potential to lift and encourage and support a feminine example of godhood (compared to many other religions, perhaps even all…I’m going through my mental catalouge. There are divine females in Hinduism, Buddhism…mariology in Catholicism….but no Goddess….unless you go back to Egypt, Greece, etc. I also realize that this point has been debated recently…but isn’t it great that there’s something there to debate about?!)
Anyway, sorry for the rant, but Goddess thealogy is something I love dearly, has given me strength, is not wacked out drivel but actually well-developed, and I think could do so much good….and I REALLY don’t understand how we can develop theologies that get sold in Deseret Book, but a theAlogy is heretical.
::deep breath:: threadjack. Pretend this comment is like a post-it note on the side.
Comment by Pinto — February 2, 2008 @ 11:33 am
the fact that we have no feminist thealogy
I disagree. It may not be explicit, but it’s there, deeply woven into all that we believe about all that matters most.
Comment by m&m — February 2, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
I used to be confused by forgiveness, invisibility, and being Christlike. There is a kind of power and recognition to be found in martyrdom and in being a victim, but it isn’t happiness. We are responsible for the way that people treat us, and for seizing the chance to truly feel strength in being who we are. Quiet or loud, daughters of God with the strength and integrity to stand up for ourselves and for what is right and for what we deserve. I know too many women in the church who have given up their interests and dreams when they were married, instead of integrating them into their lives. Artists, scientists, poets…. If we are struggling with depression or feeling invisible, we should step back and listen and honor our inner selves. Our families will be strengthened.
Comment by susan — February 2, 2008 @ 5:42 pm
m&m- Oh I know it’s there! That’s what is so exciting. But it has not yet been unpacked, developed, or systematized like many other aspects of our doctrine. I’m calling for more study, serious consideration, and honest dialogue about this idea that all of us accept, but few of us openly speak about.
Comment by Pinto — February 2, 2008 @ 5:54 pm
Pinto, I agree that it is exciting, but I do think we need to be careful about how we approach this.
Two quotes have come to mind with this. (I have stayed away from quotes here, but I think these are worth including.)
From President Hinckley:
“[N]one of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge.”
There’s a tension between these two quotes. I think any of us can approach the scriptures and our Father seeking understanding. I love how she invites us to so seek. But I think we need to be careful, as Sister Holland was, not to speak too much to specifics, and take Pres. Hinckley’s counsel about caution and limits to heart.
Comment by m&m — February 2, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
Wow, how depressing. What I would say to the person who wrote the piece is this.
If we act like we are invisible and make ourselves into servants then I guess that is what we become. Stand up for yourself. If no one hears you when you ask them to turn the TV down, Do it yourself. They’ll notice that. Set some boundaries and stick to them.
If you can’t do it on your own find someone who is trained in cognitive behavior therapy and learn better ways of looking at and handling things.
Do more of the things you love of less of the things you don’t.
Comment by Claudia — February 2, 2008 @ 8:54 pm
m&m…
never mind.
Comment by chandelle — February 2, 2008 @ 9:14 pm
Susan (#87), so exactly completely true and perfectly stated, thanks!
Comment by McMommy — February 2, 2008 @ 10:46 pm
I have never thought there is any merit in being invisible. There is nothing supporting that in the scriptures that i know of. However there is a lot of merit in being a servant, and enough is said about it when the Lord told his disciples, when they asked who was the greatest among them, that the servant of all was the greatest of all. I find it a little challenging not to confuse the two, but service does not automatically equal invisibility.
Sometimes I have to remind my children that I am not their slave and no, I won’t do their bidding until I have time in my schedule. They are old enough to wait now. When they were very little however, I usually was right on the job when they peeped, and that life was a drag on my soul indeed. But I never felt like I had to do it all without expecting gratitude or recognition. As if there was something righteous about being invisible. That’s crap. But, a life of service is worthwhile, and worth pursuing.
Comment by Mommie Dearest — February 3, 2008 @ 2:01 am
chandelle (91),
I’m not sure what you wanted to say, or what message you wanted me to get from your comment (if any), but I just wanted to say that I’m sorry if I said anything that offended you. It’s not my intention.
Comment by m&m — February 3, 2008 @ 2:23 am
So…invisible then.
Comment by RE — February 3, 2008 @ 8:29 am
if I said anything that offended you. It’s not my intention.
i know. that’s why i didn’t say anything when i set out to say so much. i wish i could express how dangerous and hurtful your words are, but i know that you mean well and you clearly have a good heart. so i backed off.
Comment by chandelle — February 3, 2008 @ 9:51 am
From comment 89
Once again m&m enlightens us. How nice.
Pattern.
Invisible.
Woman.
m&m — I shouldn’t even respond to you. I promised myself to ignore you long ago. But I keep hoping that maybe someday you can see how in your zeal to defend the status quo, your words together with such carefully selected quotes might just be damaging and hurtful to some.
Comment by Not Ophelia — February 3, 2008 @ 11:03 am
Not Ophelia.
You definitely shouldn’t respond to m&m - your dismissive and accusatory tone with her don’t do you any favors.
Comment by patti — February 3, 2008 @ 12:38 pm
Well, you were the one who said that, “I think the world would be a much better place if more of us were where she is.” Now maybe it was unclear, but you seemed to be endorsing the original essay.
And I don’t agree with it. I don’t concur with her conclusion that
Of course we can be good mothers and not be invisible!
I am a big advocate of not caring what other people think, of listening to your inner voice (which for many LDS includes the promptings of the Holy Ghost) and doing what you think best, irregardless of what others think.
But that is not the same as the invisibility described in this essay. I don’t think we should worry overmuch about other’s stated opinions about us, but we need other people to reflect who we are.
There is a reason that societies all around the globe, without communicating with one another, have made solitary confinement the worst punishment in their legal system. Because it takes away our mirror.
They psychologists among us are thinking that I am referring to social construction of reality, and yes, I think it is an important theory in understanding the human mind.
Comment by Naismith — February 3, 2008 @ 12:58 pm
Dang, that’s a fascinating way to look at loneliness. I hadn’t thought of it in those terms. Naismith, you should write a guest post on the topic. Have you read Lacan? He may be full of crap on a lot of stuff (especially regarding gender) but he’d play really well into this idea.
Comment by Janet — February 3, 2008 @ 6:00 pm
N.O.–you’re alive!
Comment by Janet — February 3, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
Well, you were the one who said that, “I think the world would be a much better place if more of us were where she is.”
And what I meant is what I said about what I got from the story, in part because of where I heard it and what was said with it and what I felt. Please take all that I have said into consideration before you take me to task, because what you are arguing, Naiasmith, I agree with. You are arguing with things I never said.
I confess I don’t understand what is so hurtful and horrible from saying that we should know who we are, in the core of our souls, and know that the most important things we do matter, because God sees everything that we do.
I didn’t say I agreed with the whole piece. I never said I even agreed with “We cannot be seen if we’re doing it right” because in many cases I think the opposite can be true. I gave what it meant to me and then said that I think we would be better off as individuals and as a whole if we were more grounded in this way. That’s all.
Comment by m&m — February 3, 2008 @ 9:31 pm
m&m, i really don’t want to delve into this issue, but i just wanted to make it clear that what i was referencing as terribly destructive and hurtful was your attempts, in #89, to warn women off of considering, questioning and seeking information about the feminine divine in mormon theology. and i believe that’s what NO was referring to as well - not the assertion you repeated above.
Comment by chandelle — February 3, 2008 @ 10:22 pm
I also want to explain why I included those quotes, because it’s actually not simply about the status quo to me. I find Sister Holland’s quote to be really insightful and interesting. I wonder what she has learned by pondering the things she has. I hear her inviting us to take our questions right to the scriptures and to prayerfully ponder them to find patterns and messages that are there. They are not invisible, but require us to open our hearts and minds.
And then I see that invitation for a personal quest balanced with the words of the prophet who says that we shouldn’t embark on this journey to somehow get ahead of the prophets or publicly preach what the Spirit may quietly teach. (This is something that the scriptures warn against.) But that doesn’t mean we have to wait for prophets them to teach us everything that there is to know. It’s an interesting balance to ponder. The scriptures tell us we can know ALL things through the Spirit. But I think the Lord won’t tell us some things if we won’t keep them to ourselves.
For example, I think of what I have learned about the temple from the scriptures and the Spirit. (I’m thinking of something that came over weeks and weeks of hours and hours of study.) I haven’t felt I could share them. I don’t ever want to share things I shouldn’t because I want God to feel He can trust me. I want to be able to learn more!
Sometimes I have felt frustrated that we don’t hear more about what it all means, but I realize that it’s because the Lord wants ME to pay the price. When I have, He has opened my mind and heart and helped me understand, line upon line. It sobers me to contemplate what else I could learn if I paid the price.
Again, He has promised us that He can tell us all things through the Spirit, but we have to be ready, obedient, and willing to keep things sacred, to ourselves, when they aren’t talked about.
The prophets won’t be teaching specific things from the temple, and who knows if they will ever teach anything about our Mother in Heaven. And who knows if any of us is ready individually to learn more, but Sister Holland’s article suggests to me that it’s there and it’s possible. Is that simply encouraging the status quo? It seems to me quite the opposite, even if it’s not encouraging institutional change. But my point is that I don’t think we need that change to overcome our hurt or to find out more about things that we want to understand.
If this is hurtful, I’m sorry. But I find it liberating and empowering and wonderful to think that I can go to the scriptures and, if I am ready and receptive, the Lord can teach me more and more and more. It makes me want to be as receptive and obedient and diligent as possible, and willing to put much effort into being pure and studying the word of God to be able to have more of the veil taken back. To me, these two quotes suggest a possible pattern of learning more about things we want to learn more about. Seek and study and prayerfully ponder. And then be willing to keep things that God reveals quiet when they aren’t what is publicly known. I don’t see how we could expect God to tell us more if we aren’t willing to follow the patterns He has given and the commandments given regarding learning spiritual truths that have not been revealed to all.
Comment by m&m — February 3, 2008 @ 10:27 pm
chandelle, if you read that quote carefully, and my explanation above, you may see that maybe what I said is not what you think it was.
Comment by m&m — February 3, 2008 @ 10:32 pm
m&m…
what is hurtful is the subtle implication that if a woman was as spiritual as you, these things would not be a problem.
Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 1:49 am
btw…
has anyone already linked to Lynette’s fabulous post on why she doesn’t want to believe in Heavenly Mother?
Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 1:51 am
what is hurtful is the subtle implication that if a woman was as spiritual as you, these things would not be a problem.
G, where have I implied that I am more spiritual? Let me say again: This is at the heart of a very personal journey and struggle I am experiencing myself — trying to really trust in God’s love to the point where I don’t need external validation (which I finally realized last year after nearly four decades of life that I have been driven by essentially my whole life). While I am not there yet, I know that that is where my peace with myself and my life and my weaknesses lies — in trusting God and His love and His word. That to me doesn’t imply that I think I’m more spiritual, it means that I struggle, too. This isn’t a competition, and I’m not trying to make it out to be!
I am sorry if the way I have expressed it is so passionate or comes across as strident to be misread as condescending, but please note things like the following where I say: “this whole external validation thing to me is a trap and is one I am working very hard to overcome, so that’s where I am with that….” I’m there in the battle of trying to find that feeling of worth I think most of us seek. I am sharing things that have helped me and that mean something to me. Is that not what a blog is about?
Please, if you disagree with me or have had different experiences, fine, share those, but please stop making me out to be something and someone I am not, who is saying things that she is not.
Comment by m&m — February 4, 2008 @ 2:07 am
m&m…
from you comments it is apparent you feel strongly that God desires you need less external validation (and therefore accept ‘invisibility’ as far as human recognition goes.)
That’s great. If you are receiving personal revelation from God on the matter, you need to follow it.
However, you have spent a lot of words implying that everyone else should feel the same way. That if they just prayed more and read the scriptures more, they would understand better and there wouldn’t be any fussing.
Personally, God is sending me the message that the social/cultural/religious pressures to make women’s work and accomplishments “invisible” are a destructive plague that must be fought and vanquished.
I respect your divine inspiration to fight the starvation you feel for recognition, reinforcement and a pat on the back (to paraphrase your comment #47) because I too have to fight those demons.
can you respect my divine inspiration to fight cultural norms that try to disappear women’s work?
Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 3:36 am
ah,
here is yet another link to contribute to this (now probably dead) thread; Jana discusses Laurel Thatcher Ulrich’s book “Well Behaved Women Seldom Make History”
Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 4:18 am
Then why didn’t you just say what you got from the story? As in, “to me, it said that I might….”
What you said was, “I think the world would be a much better place if more of us were where she is.”
It came across preachy because of the reference to “more of us,” implying that we should also be doing what you think. Why not just say, “I might be happier if I was where she is.”
I don’t think people would have found that near as preachy.
Sure, it’s easy to dismiss this as just word games and semantics. But that stuff matters to people, mostly unconsciously. What really sealed the coffin for Alberto Gonzales as Attorney General was when he went before Congress and said “Mistakes were made.” In passive voice. Not acknowledging, “I made mistakes.”
Comment by Naismith — February 4, 2008 @ 7:23 am
Not Ophelia, Chandelle, and G — Just wanted to say thanks in a little way. I posted some ideas that personally meant a lot to me (and to my grad. school interests in my religion program right now) and though I understand m&m’s comments (really, truly, I do. I’m not mad or anything), I felt a little bit “well, maybe I should keep these thoughts to my seminar classes instead.” I chickened out because I didn’t want to be pushing something that was possibly offending others.
I’m glad that we represent both (or many) sides of the debate here about LDS feminist/goddess thealogy–both the idea that it could be dangerous to try and define something we know little about, but also the counter-point that we have all the more responsibility then to seek out, publish, and really think about what we do have (in MIH ideas AND in m&m’s point about finding subtle patterns about women in the scriptures).
I’m more a proponent of the latter. I think that Mormonism has had many, many theologians that have delved into other topics we have little information about (Talmage anyone? B.H. Roberts? Many entries in “Mormon Doctrine”?)…I don’t understand why we have not done the same (or been allowed to do the same, as may be a real possibility) for our rich and beautiful beliefs in the feminine divine AND divine femininity.
Lastly, thanks G for the link to Lynette’s post. Lynette and I studied together last summer and I really know how much this subject matters to her and how much sincere thought she’s put into it.
Comment by Pinto — February 4, 2008 @ 10:20 am
I don’t have time to read through all the comments, but I would like to say that like many of you I was well trained by my mother as a martyr.
However, my husband was trained even better by his mother that the mother should be a martyr.
When we had a few little kids he told me at the dinner table a little story about the mother who gave her last crust of bread to her children. This was years ago, but I decided then and there that being a martyr was so absurd and I was not going to do it.
Despite his early training by his mother, my husband is not a jerk and he has been very reasonable in giving up the game. Every now and then we slip into the martyr game, but I am so sensitive to it that it doesn’t last long.
Not long ago we spent an extended period of time with my husband’s parents. My husband’s mother has honed the self-sacrificing/martyr thing to such a sharp point that it is painful to live with her. A couple of times, I thought about calling her on it, but decided that it would undoubtedly just be confusing to her.
Spending this time with the in-laws really brought home the point that I need to take care of myself and not act in the self-centered ways that the woman in the original post does. She makes a great point that she is so self-sacrificing, but it is really an extreme form of selfishness.
Can I say that again? Being the martyr is an extreme form of selfishness. It’s all about “me.” Unfortunately the woman who wrote the essay on invisible women had a friend named Janice who enabled her in her martyrdom by giving her a book on cathedrals and now women all over the world (I also got this essay on a non-LDS support group and of course it always says at the bottom to send to ten women you know) are being trained in how to be better martyrs.
Please, women, let’s all figure out healthy ways to live life and serve those around us without being martyrs. Let’s live life in positive ways! Let’s live life in optimistic ways! Let’s all get a good behavioral therapist if we need it!
Comment by Researcher — February 4, 2008 @ 10:22 am
She makes a great point that she is so self-sacrificing, but it is really an extreme form of selfishness.
amen to that, sister.
Let’s all get a good behavioral therapist if we need it!
and to that. :::sigh:::
Comment by chandelle — February 4, 2008 @ 10:41 am
“a little story about the mother who gave her last crust of bread to her children.”
wasn’t that from Les Miserables… two soldiers talking about a beggar woman giving the last crust of bread to her children, not because she was hungry but because “she was a mother”?
I can’t remember the conference talk… but I am sure I remember hearing it as part of a General Authority’s talk on motherhood.
And to this day I have a hard time eating the “good food” in the house. I eat what I know neither my husband nor son would be very enthusiastic about, and can never make myself take very much of the foods they are excited about.
And I am very conflicted about this tendency in me.
(sorry for the weird personal anecdote… but it is on my mind)
Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 11:20 am
uh, make that “not because she WASN’T hungry…”
Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 11:21 am
I think it was a talk by Elder Holland
Comment by Rebecca — February 4, 2008 @ 11:55 am
Yes, that is exactly the story I am talking about. Thanks for pointing out where it came from. That is exactly the mindset we’ve been trained into. It’s not like we’re on the brink of starvation and having to divide our last crust. As the mothers who are bearing and nursing the children, shouldn’t we have healthy food? If the men around your house prefer steak and ribs and chocolate cake, by all means skip it. You’ll be healthier. But if it’s that piece of toast that got burned, throw it away! Don’t be the mother in law who always takes the burnt toast!
I’m not saying that we should take the best of everything and have to be first in everything. That is absurd also. Family life involves a lot of give and take. In forming a family, we immediately have to live the law of sacrifice. We sacrifice everything from our bodies (bearing children) to our right to have our immediate surroundings be the exact way we would choose (try sharing a bathroom with little boys).
Let’s not warp the beautiful principle of sacrifice into the martyr mindset. Being a martyr is a self-serving way of approaching the many negotiations that make up family life. And what’s more…no one will appreciate you for it!
Comment by Researcher — February 4, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
Then why didn’t you just say what you got from the story? As in, “to me, it said that I might….”
What you said was, “I think the world would be a much better place if more of us were where she is.”
It came across preachy
Have you considered that maybe it’s how you interpreted it? I am not sure what else you want me to do. I have tried with comment after comment to clarify what I really meant. At some point, I don’t know what you expect to accomplish by insisting on going back to something that I have already clarified repeatedly.
I’m sorry that you think I said it wrong. I really am. I’m sorry if I offended people. But it wasn’t my intent to do all that I have been accused of doing, however, and I just wish that could matter, as this is a limited medium for all of us, and words and semantics are only part of what comes into play in this sphere.
Comment by m&m — February 4, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
Researcher, Thank you so much for bringing up that story. My husband and I always get into arguments because I refuse to eat the last piece of anything good, drink the last glass of milk, finish off the pizza, etc. Neither of us understand why I can’t bring myself to do this. You struck on it. My mother has trained me well to be a martyr. I also love your statement that being a martyr is selfish. I upset everyone around me so much more when I play martyr than if I just ate the last piece of food that I want so much. You just saved me tons of money in tharapy : )
Comment by Tonya — February 4, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
m&m… if that is how you really meant it, you should consider how with comment after comment you have misrepresented yourself.
Comment by G — February 4, 2008 @ 2:27 pm
Cool Tonya! Maybe we can split the difference and pay for some therapy for me to learn to get along with my in laws.
Comment by Researcher — February 4, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
So, hopefully I am not too late for this discussion…
Anyway, there is a poem by Carol Lynn Pearson about this that I really like. I grew up reading her poetry, (she is my grandma’s cousin) and it really influenced a lot of my beliefs on woman and motherhood, etc. The poem is called Millie’s Mother’s Red Dress (I hope that link works)
Comment by april — February 4, 2008 @ 2:41 pm
Hey, I’m still needing my therapy to get along with my in-laws too.
Comment by Tonya — February 4, 2008 @ 3:33 pm
I don’t usually post here, because I don’t consider myself a “feminist” in the way that I think women in the Church are mistreated or should be given the priesthood. I’m just not one of those people who believes that the idea of a Heavenly Mother is being glossed over in an attempt to marginalize women. I tend to interpret the Proclamation to mean that men and women have separate and complementary roles that are nevertheless equal. I feel in every way an equal to my spouse, and I wouldn’t stand for being treated otherwise. I feel like it’s my responsibility to stand up for myself and my needs, probably as a reaction against my mother, who definitely played martyr and got herself nowhere with it. It’s funny that the “Windows” song was mentioned, because she loves that song, and it’s always struck me the wrong way. I don’t want to be invisible (and with soon-to-be 4 under 6, I’m anything but–don’t ask me how I ever get privacy in the bathroom). I expect to be recognized for my unique talents and efforts, but I also realize some of that does have to come from within, because people are not always capable of constant adulation. Sometimes they get so busy with their own responsibilities that they just forget to notice. I know I’m just as guilty of that as anyone else.
Comment by Snow White — February 4, 2008 @ 5:30 pm
can you respect my divine inspiration to fight cultural norms that try to disappear women’s work?
I don’t know why you think that I wouldn’t. Share away. I just would appreciate actually feeling some respect for my point of view along the way, even if I don’t express it just right. I am sorry that I don’t.
Comment by m&m — February 4, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
I missed this from Artemis, where she said:
I agree with you up to the last sentence. I even agree that that’s what the author was after. But I think this piece is dangerous because it reinforces some really unhealthy notions, already discussed.
I can respect that point of view and understand that that is more what people want to discuss here and that my comments probably were different from what people wanted this discussion to be. I’m bowing out so as not to frustrate that desire. Consider it my peace offering.
Comment by m&m — February 4, 2008 @ 8:09 pm
Back to the Mother in Heaven issue for a moment …
I would like to suggest that men, IN GENERAL, think more passively about Mother in Heaven, and so, even though they are curious about the details, it’s okay to not know - it’s okay that she is either distant or invisible. Like when you go and play outside, you know that your mom will be there when you get home.
I personally feel that most of our current ideas about Mother in Heaven are just popular opinion put forth by those vocal enough to become popular opinion. If a woman were to write a book like Mormon Doctrine, not just for feminists - but generally well researched - if it became popular (and that’s another topic all together!), it would perhaps change the way many Mormons think about heavenly Mother.
I hope I articulated myself clearly enough
Pinto - Sounds fun
look me up when you get over here .. *adds her blog address to post*
Comment by Sophia — February 5, 2008 @ 6:00 pm
I would throw myself in front of a train for my children, but I would not give up myself for them and become invisible.
Comment by waiting — February 5, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
In response to all the “ugg” and “bleck” comments towards Invisible Woman, I want to pay respects to the relevancy of her concerns. I recently read Virginia Woolf who was on my mind when I decided to pay fmh a visit. Early feminist writers (and i include her in this category) were rightfully concerned about the gender bias in historical remembrance. Remembrance meaning long-term remembrance, to many people, equals power. Feminists before us and now are working to empower our gender by making us visible presently and in the future. The result of strictly defining the female gender role as sole child care-giver is to limit our visibility outside the spaces of our home. Sometimes the lack of outside attention translates into the perceptions of those within our home, and I agree with other comments that this needs to be corrected.
In A Room of One’s Own, VWoolf said, “For all the dinners are cooked; the plates and cups washed; the children set to school and gone into the world. Nothing remains of it all. All has vanished. No biography or history has a word to say about it.” Invisible Woman had something to say about it and I’m grateful she did. Maybe this is a statement revealing my current state of cynicism but If her conclusion were mine, I’d be bluffing. The first part of the essay was okay, but the last part’s a bit contrived.
Comment by feminist mormon of color — February 6, 2008 @ 2:51 pm
Feminist Mormon of Color–your apt quotation from Woolf reminds me of why I so enjoy Laurel Thatcher Ulrich’s work. She recognizes the value of “private” work and brings it into the public sphere. Academia long ago abandoned the notion that seperate spheres actually existed with the clear demarcations indicated by 19th c. rhetoric, but it’s still incredibly affirming to see someone shine light on the largely invisibly work of those who preceded us.
Comment by Janet — February 6, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
Janet - I still think a gendered dichotomy of inside-outside persists, and i’m not sure that academia has completely abandoned the idea of separate spheres due to prevalence of literature especially in transnational feminism. I think the work of these early female writers are incredibly appropriate to our circumstances today especially as women raised in the church with expectations to marry and be primary caregivers if we are to fulfill our true potentials and I use Woolf (1929) to illustrate this point.
Comment by feminist mormon of color — February 6, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
btw, thanks for the Ulrich suggestion!
Comment by feminist mormon of color — February 6, 2008 @ 3:28 pm
Good point, FMOC. I guess I was only referencing my particular field. We still use the speak to the pervasive rhetoric regarding separate spheres from the 19th c. (kinda hard to miss) but argue that despite all the rhetoric of the day, the lines weren’t clear and fast. In contemporary church conversations people still often either think those lines hold or desperately want them to. One of the reasons the seeming contradictions in the POTF don’t bother me as much as they do some people is that they seem to tacitly wrestle (can you wrestle tacitly?) with the boundary fuzziness.
Comment by Janet — February 6, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
FMOC, I LOVE that quote by woolf, have it recored in my journal…
I also love what she said about having to kill the “angel in the house” (the self-sacrificing mother who lives only to serve others) out of self-defense; “Had I not killed her she would have killed me.”
and I must second and third Ulrich’s book.
Comment by G — February 6, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
Her children and husband need to learn some manners.
Comment by Catherine — February 6, 2008 @ 5:33 pm
Janet - I think you can wrestle any way you like especially with those spaces in between binaries! I’m not catching the meaning of POTF? I’d be interested in reading arguments in your field directed against the delineation of spheres around 19th century rhetoric (and also how you’re defining spheres, where and which body of literature you’re referencing, etc etc) but maybe outside this forum…
G - LOL, Your’s is a good quote by Woolf, too - where is that found? I agree with its premise though I’d replace the angel with a different one….haven’t decided which one, yet.
Comment by feminist mormon of color — February 6, 2008 @ 9:55 pm
Shudder! Just got this again on a CHD-related online support group.
At some point a relative was forwarding everything that came around. My husband and I decided to ignore it rather than request that he stop and all the forwarding stopped after awhile. Same thing happened with another relative. Now it’s one of the ward members who sends this type of thing. We just glance at the email to make sure it doesn’t contain any personal information and don’t even bother reading. We read the ones that get sent from people that don’t normally forward everything and we’ve found some real gems that way. But when someone is forwarding everything we figure they’re going through a phase and it will stop.
Comment by Researcher — February 12, 2008 @ 7:15 am
Well, just to be difficult, I will tell you that there was a person I taught on my mission, several decades older than myself, who has been forwarding things (everything) to me for over 8 years. Like you, I delete most of it without reading it. But if it’s a phase, it might be a phase like life is a phase….
Comment by Artemis — February 12, 2008 @ 9:58 am
Just an FYI — the original post states “author unknown” — this popular email is actually an excerpt from Nicole Johnson’s novel The Invisible Woman (W Publishing Group, 2005) For more information, check out the author’s Web site at www.freshbrewedlife.com.
I have not read the book — but perhaps if we all did, we could put this into context and it would not seem “contrived.”
Comment by M — February 20, 2008 @ 8:04 am
A follow up (should have included in the earlier post) - a description of the source novel, The Invisible Woman by Nicole Johnson:
“This unusually reflective and insightful book brings a powerful message of personal value and hope to every taken-for-granted woman in today’s emotionally sightless world. In the Invisible Woman, Nicole Johnson shows how much she understands the difficulty of living with great responsibility without receiving any recognition. In this book, Nicole puts us inside the mind and heart of Charlotte Fisher. As we walk through Charlotte’s story of feeling invisible, we experience the comedy and loneliness of her life. The invisibility that at first feels inflicted ultimately brings her real significance and meaning.”
Comment by M — February 20, 2008 @ 8:08 am
I think we become invisible when we no longer take care of ourselves.
Comment by anonymous — March 30, 2008 @ 8:45 pm
I wanted to say that I am not LDS and I have read through all the comments and I feel like you ladies did not read the story.
Yes maybe the woman felt like she was invisible and it is disturbing in the way she was treated but she could have changed it and made it diffrent. But this story could have been meant to help women not get into that situation. I do not feel like I am invisible. I have a son who will be 13 years old and I have been married for 15 years. My husband is the most gentle and kind person I have ever known other than my father. After reading this book I saw a few things I can relate to . And I think this was a way to make us think of what we do not want to be like. I know my father in heaven. I love Jeasus. I read the Bible, I am a christian and go to church. But I think my main question to you is why do you chat like this online and even sometimes hurt feelings and make yourself seem better than another in some ways. I read some of the comments and I felt that some of you were stuck up and snobish. I could not see my self going to church with some of you. I think you would make me feel out of place and inadequet.
My entire life I have been treated with respect and have been raised with great morals and even Mormon like values but I have never been able to stomach LDS women and there self righteous CRAP!
Comment by Renee — April 8, 2008 @ 2:17 pm
I am sorry for my comment. I should not have got so carried away.
Comment by Renee — April 8, 2008 @ 2:19 pm
I think one of the reasons for discussion on FMH is that many of us do not have places to discuss ideas elsewhere. In real life we can’t put an idea or a cultural tidbit like this under a microscope and beat it until it’s dead like we can here.
Speaking for myself, I don’t have many acquaintances in “real life” who like to discuss ideas. The few that do tend to be so busy that they rarely have the time for conversation.
“I could not see my self going to church with some of you.”
I think we would largely tend to be “nice” in person. And don’t worry; these sorts of things are almost never discussed at church. There is little time for conversation at church.
And furthermore, I imagine that few LDS women would feel comfortable participating in these discussions. I would guess that the women participating in a blog such as FMH represent a very small fraction of women in the church. Literate, intellectual, feminist to some degree, with the time to blog.
The discussion on a site like this tends to weed out people who do not like intellectual discussions, don’t like having their ideas examined and challenged, or tend to be sensitive.
Just because your ideas are challenged does not mean that you need to abandon them, and conversations do not always result in positive things, but sometimes they do. I personally thought that many interesting ideas were shared here and I doubt that anyone has been permanently scarred by this discussion.
Comment by Researcher — April 8, 2008 @ 4:02 pm
Great done and keep posted. Looking forward to reading more from you.
Comment by Usdating — January 10, 2010 @ 1:37 pm