The Spirit let Me Down
As your friendly neighborhood admin I ask you to be gentle with our guest, she is feeling very vulnerable at the moment . . .
by TAG,
Since i joined the church 18 years ago, I’ve always been adept at feeling the Spirit. (And even before, I always had a personal relationship with Christ.) The Spirit has saved my life before, my children’s lives - by speaking to me. He told me four years ago we were to visit my mom on her birthday, which meant going north in the winter, something we didn’t do. A chain of events occured and here we are, living in our home state again. (Yeah, but our bishop was hesitant because the Spirit didn’t tell my dh, He told me - and the bishopric kept praying that we’d stay. I told them to knock it off. But that’s another post. Sorry.)
The point being, I can feel the Spirit. For awhile, I kept track in my journal, and every week I had a testimony-meeting-bearing type of experience, if I felt so inclined. (I didn’t.) But now, He’s not talking to me.
I can say it’s been at least a year. Last fall, we found out my brother had died. He was homeless and paranoid schizophrenic and died while in the custody of the LAPD. That’s all we know. But during that time, WOW, I had spiritual experiences left and right. And once in the temple, the Spirit told me very clearly to “Stop asking.” That was my answer to why my brother died. Even though I didn’t like the answer especially, I did like that I knew the Lord knew me personally, and that I knew, someday, He would tell me why.
Shortly after my brother’s funeral, my sister found out she had leukemia. It was a huge blow, obviously, but most of the family was very optimistic. I never was, until a Saturday I went to spend with her in the hospital. She was in a medicine-induced coma, and we never communicated, really. I mean, I spoke to her of course, but I never felt that she heard me or knew I was there. Even so, I came home ecstatic. She was going to get better! I came home and told my husband that and he was a little wary. That week, he worked at my parents’ house, and they all went down to see her. When he came back, he tried to tell me she wasn’t going to get better.
I didn’t believe him. The Spirit had told me she was going to get better! After nearly a year of not speaking to me, He did, and in a most glorious way. She was going to get better!
But she didn’t. She died a week after I had my eureka moment.
But on feeling the Spirit, yes, I know, it’s up to me and my personal righteousness and all that. But the thing is, I read the scriptures - or not - as much as before. I pray - or try to, when it’s one way communication, it doesn’t feel like prayer - more than ever before. The only difference is I doubt. I doubt the Church is true. My temple recommend just expired and I don’t foresee getting another one. (But did I covenant to “never doubt”? I don’t remember doing that.) It’s not just a Church issue anymore, though, it’s a God issue. Why won’t He speak to me? It’s rather a circle that feeds off each other: the Lord won’t speak to me, so I doubt more, because I doubt, He won’t speak to me . . .
I know the Lord knows me personally. I just don’t know that He cares. To me, that’s even worse.
Wow. Although your circumstances are diifferent than mine, the situation is the same. I’m going thru this right now (maybe the spirit led you to post this? ;^) ), so when I get some insights, I send them on.
Comment by janescott — December 12, 2007 @ 11:16 am
TAG,
I wish I knew a way to help you. The only way I feel I can is to relate a story. Back in February this year, I was feeling really overwhelmed. I asked my husband to give me a blessing, hoping for a blessing for life to get easier. Instead, my blessing told me that the next year was going to be very difficult and that I would need to stay close to the Lord to get through. Just recently I’ve seen that start to happen. The promotion that I just recieved and I’ve been spending my whole carreer shooting for has turned out to not be a job I enjoy, just when my husband and I started trying to have children I was diagnosed with Grave’s disease and have to take birth control until it’s under control, the Grave’s has made school this semester miserable because I can’t keep up, and then when I started feeling better, I was in a car accident. To top it all off, even though I’m praying and reading my scriptures, I haven’t felt the spirit in a while. Fortunatly, I’ve had proof he still cares. Once things reach the point where their too hard to bear and I’m on my knees sobbing, life seems to let up for a minute, either the sun comes out, my employees behaive, or my husband’s able to spend extra time for me. All I can say is keep praying. I promise one day the sun will come.
Comment by Tonya — December 12, 2007 @ 11:19 am
I can tell you that for me when this has happened - when there have been times of searching and praying and just not getting answers and not feeling any guidance, I believe it has been a test. And so the key is not to give up, not to question your earlier spiritual feelings or to feel betrayed or abandoned. Patience, until you get to the top of this hill and can see the whole panorama. In my limited experience, these difficult experiences do start to make sense eventually.
Comment by Ana — December 12, 2007 @ 11:29 am
TAG, I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I don’t have easy answers, but one thing I have learned in my life is that when I feel a prompting, my definition of what it says isn’t always what the Lord means, but He is ultimately right. That’s happened to me when I felt certain that a situation would “be OK” or “get better”–and I imagined those answers would happen in much different ways than they actually did. But in the end, yes, things were better. I am certainly in no position to interpret your inspiration–this is absolutely just off the top of my head and I don’t mean to presume to apply it to you and to your sister–but it does occur to me that death can be a way that an ill person does get better. Losing a loved one isn’t better for us, but does allow them to move past the sorrow and pain of this world.
Comment by Melanie2 — December 12, 2007 @ 11:58 am
Hi TAG-
I am so sorry you are suffering. You likely already know you were blessed to have felt the spirit as much as you did. For a lot of people it can be a fleeting experience once in a while. Of course this doesn’t change that you are not feeling it now. When I first joined the church years ago there was a young man in our ward with a wife and six children to support. He became ill with cancer and the stake president gave him a blessing in which he felt impressed that the man would be healed. The man died a few months later and some really struggled with the blessing. I heard the SP speak about it not long after - how he too struggled with it until he came to understand the healing was not an earthly one. Perhaps your sister’s healing was the same.
I only know that you are right - the Lord does know you personally. And He cares, even when we can’t feel it, He cares. I don’t understand this either, but I sometimes wonder if this isn’t another of Satan’s tools to get us to veer off track. May you feel the spirit again soon TAG.
Comment by Annastasia — December 12, 2007 @ 11:59 am
Ana, that really resonates with me - to trust the previous spiritual experiences you’ve had, even when God seems to be silent right now. In my own limited experience, how much I feel the spirit has almost no correlation to how “righteous” I am being or how hard I’m trying to feel it. They come when they do - and there are times when they don’t, no matter how hard I might try.
You’ve probably heard the quote from CS Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters where he talks about how humans grow the most spiritually when all evidence of God is gone, and yet they still cling to belief and behave as if God is right there. I have found this to be true in my own life. It’s only in retrospect that I realize how I was actually helped by being left to stand on my own for a while.
Comment by ChelseaW — December 12, 2007 @ 12:01 pm
This is an experience very close to my heart because I feel like it’s a lesson I finally FINALLY learned, so I’m going to share the insight that was my eureka moment - even though I feel like I’m always sharing it here - so if I’m repeating myself, please bear with me.
Your story could be my own - sensitive to the spirit, one tragedy after the other, heaven seems senselessly closed - and I struggled for years to figure out why I had been abandoned by my closest friend. I’d had this book sitting on my bookshelf for years, and one day I just picked it up and it completely opened my eyes. I’m always recommending it because it had such a profound effect on me. The Believing Heart by Bruce C. Hafen.
In this book Elder Hafen describes when the Saints were in Kirtland. How it was a time of unparalleled spiritual manifestation - the church was organized, the book of mormon published, speaking in tongues and prophecy, and the temple built complete with angelic visitation and the appearance of the Savior. Then, less then 10 years later they were in Nauvoo - with their prophet slain, mobs destroying their homes, and their temple dedicated while partially built with no outpouring from the heavens.
Elder Hafen writes:
He counsels that we have to use those memories of Kirtland to get us through Nauvoo, and one day we will have the perspective to realize that we weren’t alone after all, but had unseen help. And that these times are, as a member of the Martin handcart company wrote, to make us “acquainted with God in our extremities.” He quotes
;and
I truly believe that we all have to go through some times where the heavens appear closed to us as part of our eternal progression. But I now know that they’re not, looking back I can see the hand of the Lord in my life, just in ways that I was unfamiliar with. I know how challenging this is, so I hope that this was helpful. Feel free to email me at tresa at tresaedmunds dot com.
Comment by reese — December 12, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
Dear TAG:
I join with the others to express my sorrow for what you are going through. I had a very similar feeling after my mission that lasted 13 years. My crisis was not the absence of the Spirit, but instead a near complete lack of faith in fellow church members and the plan of salvation, as a whole, and my place within it.
I am pretty much at peace now and am so glad that it went the way it did because we very often want to simply ‘plug-in’ to the program and expect it to work like an ATM, and life, here and in the hereafter, is much more complex than that.
It is very possible that your recent losses and family tragedies have effected you in much deeper ways than you realize and sometimes we simply need to grieve before we can move forward. Even Christ himself, grieved for John before moving on with his mission. Having the spirit doesn’t always mean that we get to skip the pains and sorrows of life. It simply helps us heal from them. President Monson once said that the adversary can duplicate any human emotion - up to the ‘burning in the bosom’, but the one that he cannot is peace.
Strive for peace, smell the flowers and take some time to just live. You will find that this is probably one of those time when there is just one set of footprints in the sand.
God Bless,
Your Spirit Brother in the California Desert,
Adam :0)
Comment by Adam — December 12, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
Wow. Sooo many people I know are going through similar stuff. RIght now it’s so baren down here. I must agree that I too feel this year is a time of testing. I like the Kirtland/Nauvoo comparison.
It’s like the Lord gives us those Kirtland moments in order to say, soak in it now, because I’m going to have to let you believe in the *absence* of proof, or I’m going to give you a chance to trust in me “yea, though [I] slay [you]” like Job. Or if He “slays” our friends or sisters. I’m so sorry.
“When It’s Dry” by Dave WIlcox
Summer lasted a generation
A generation - and then the winter wind.
The bounty harvest that seemed so endless!
It seemed so endless, until it gave what it could give.
Prosperity will have its seasons
Even when it’s here, it’s going by.
And when it’s gone, we pretend we know the reasons
And all the roots grow deeper when it’s dry.
It looked so easy, we change the weather
We would turn this world ourselves, our world so small
But slower rhythms - still unheard of
Said that every blessed summer someday has to Fall
Prosperity will have its seasons.
Even when it’s here, it’s going by.
When it’s gone, we pretend we know the reasons
And all the roots grow deeper when it’s dry, when it’s dry.
Comment by anon — December 12, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Tonya,
Not to treadjack, but I noticed you mentioned battling thyroid disease. I do too, and totally recommend Dr. Ridha Arem’s The Thyroid Solution. You’ll recognize yourself described in it. His diagnostic techniques and solutions aren’t just hype either. They work. Which is especially important when trying to achieve and maintain pregnancy. I’ve been under his care for five years and he is the best endocrinologist I have ever seen.
To O.P.–I wish I could give some guidance. I only have my personal experiences to share. I’m not Mormon nor particularly religious, but I was raised Greek Orthodox. In the past, when I have called upon God for guidance or help I’ve often been surprised by the answers. And sometimes I’ve been overwhelmed by the silence. But I always interpret the silence as a tacit understanding that my judgments should be trusted. I don’t know if that helps or not. But it’s just my experience, which is sometimes all we have to compare.
Comment by kate — December 12, 2007 @ 12:52 pm
There have been times when I felt the Spirit completely and almost every day, and there have been other times (years) that I felt like I had been abandoned. The Spirit always came back. Sometimes it took a long time.
When I was taking Latin, my beloved Latin professor would tell us to trust what we knew. I’d be asked to parse a word and I didn’t know what it meant, and she said “What do you know?” If I held to what I knew about that kind of word and what the possibilities were, I usually worked out what the word was doing in the sentence.
When I feel like I’m not getting direct guidance and I have to struggle on on my own, and hold to “what I know I know.” I know I have felt the Spirit before. I know that I have felt before the Lord’s love and that he knows me. I know that he is not capricious, and I know that being loved by Lord doesn’t mean he’ll prevent the occurances that occasionally make my life go all to hell.
“Weeping may endure for the night, but joy cometh in the morning.” - Psalms somethingorother
The night can be very long, and sometimes we have to hold on to what we know we felt before. Even the Savior felt alone on the cross. The morning always, always comes.
Comment by Katie P. — December 12, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
Re Doubt: I don’t think the Lord goes silent because we doubt. I don’t know why he does, but in my opinion, that’s not the reason. Regardless, he does sometimes. While I can’t say why I don’t get the heavenly radio station at any given time, I know I have felt it before and I can’t deny that.
Questions are fine. Doubt is okay with the Lord. I don’t think that a new present (where I don’t feel the Spirit) obliterates the past (where I know that I did feel the Spirit). So, I hold on to the knowledge I gained before (that he loves me, and he’s there, and there are no promises about this earthly life not sucking), and I hold on and hope.
“Hope is faith reaching out its hand in the dark.” - George Iles
Comment by Katie P. — December 12, 2007 @ 1:07 pm
Some months ago a member of our ward suffered multiple heart attacks and my husband was asked to administer to him in the ER. The outlook was not good. Minimal brainwave activity. During the blessing my husband felt very strongly impressed to bless this man that he would be made whole. He hesitated. This was a serious thing to say in such a moment. The impression came again, and so he pronounced the blessing. The brother that administered with him had the same impression. My husband returned home in good spirits. Over the next few days, as doctors prepared this man’s wife for the worst, I felt full assurance that he would be made well. I had no doubt. I believe in the power of the priesthood. I felt frustrated that my bishop and others expressed hopelessness. Four days later I was there as a decision was made and they pulled the plug. My world was rocked. I could not wrap my mind around what I had just experienced. What of the promised blessing? What of the assurance I felt? My husband and the other brother were similarly upset.and confused. To compound matters, my husband was asked to speak at the funeral. What could he say?
After much soul-searching, studying, and discussion, he concluded two things: He had pronounced the blessing the Lord had intended, and he had misunderstood it’s meaning. There was nothing in the blessing about being made whole in this life, nor did it necessarily have to mean a physical wholeness.
Sometimes in our mortal short-sightedness we seek to hear that which would serve us best now, and so assign our own meaning to impressions and direction from the spirit. For example, we moved our family for a job we felt very sure the Lord wanted us to take, only to get laid off six weeks later. In understanding that we were to move, I had inferred that all would be well (in the way I would like it to be well). Conversely, in the financially unsure months that followed, I had a strong assurance that all would be well, though I could not see the end from the beginning. I did not know what that would ultimately mean for our temporal situation, or whether it had more to with how I might change and grow spiritually. The difference was that I didn’t need to know. The assurance itself was enough.
My point is, assurances do not seem to come with as much meaning as we seem to attach to them. That is our mortal frailty wanting to make sense and have foreknowledge. The lesson is for us to find peace in the assurance and let God uncover the meaning (how it will play out) for us. Confusion happens when we have assigned meaning the Lord never intended, not because He changed his answer.
I hope this makes sense and is helpful. This is a lesson I am learning anew in a different context. I have found myself, once again, feeling misguided by assurances. The work now is to sort through what was real and what was imagined in my hopefulness. My best hopes for you in your searching.
Comment by sol — December 12, 2007 @ 1:11 pm
TAG, like you I enjoy frequent rich personal revelation from the Spirit. In spite of what we hear about the Spirit “fleeing”, in my experience we are the one who actually withdraws from Him.
As my sister lay unconscious, the Spirit told me that she is OK, but she remained unconscious and died 24 hours later…it took me some time to finally understand…she is OK. I miss her deeply, but I know that she is OK.
It is easy to misunderstand what revelation actually means. Sometimes it helps when I crosscheck by re-asking the question in a different way.
Are you angry at him?
Forget about weather the church is true or not, focus on your relationship with Him, do what you used to do to connect with Him and I think He will be there for you.
Comment by Howard — December 12, 2007 @ 1:15 pm
I re-read your opening post, and something occurred to me.
It sounds like feeling the Spirit and getting personal revelation is something that is part of your identity. So, a period of the Spirit seeming to go silent doesn’t just leave you lonelier, but it might be rocking your identity, your self-concept, as well.
It can be a real shock to have our self-conceptions no longer seem to be true. I think it is something that happens to most people eventually, though. I lost my self-concept when my mother died when I was 20. I had always been blessed and I thought of myself as beloved of the Lord and of my family. When my mother died, that didn’t seem (wasn’t) true anymore. Clearly I wasn’t one of the blessed of the Lord anymore and it turned out that Mom did 90% of the beloving of me. All I can say is that I suspect that we all live several lives, not just one, and that nothing stays the same.
You know how the scriptures mention spiritual gifts? I suspect that not only are some given one gift and others given another, but that we ourselves are given different gifts at different times in our lives. Maybe right now isn’t the time for the gift of personal revelation - that means that it’s the time for a different one and time to endure and find out what that is.
Comment by Katie P. — December 12, 2007 @ 1:26 pm
You might consider checking out Mother Theresa: Come Be My Light. Apparently, Mother Theresa did not feel the spirit for decades. One excerpt:
Of course nobody to whom she did not explicitly confess this ever suspected such a thing. The book is reviewed at
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html
Comment by Last Lemming — December 12, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
My heart goes out to you. I think many of us have such experiences. I echo those who talk about the tests we have. I think also of what my mom recently said about when Lazarus died. The Lord tarried, and because of that, Lazarus died. Imagine how that must have felt!
Sometimes the Lord tarries in our lives; sometimes prayers aren’t answered the way we thought they would be; sometimes priesthood blessings don’t come as we hoped they would. I agree with those who say that one lesson I have learned is that sometimes the Spirit’s impressions will play out differently than we thought. This doesn’t mean the Spirit was wrong, but that our vision is limited. I have to remind myself often of what Nephi said: “I know God loveth his children, nevertheless I do not know the meaning of all things.”
I had one of these kinds of experiences years ago. Things worked out so totally opposite of what I thought the Spirit and blessings indicated would happen. It was so very difficult for me, and continued to linger as one of those questions I wanted to ask Someday on the other side. After more than a decade, I was recently in the temple, and met someone who helped bring some closure to this for me. NOT clear answers, but some closure and at least the knowledge that the Lord was aware of me. But it took more than a decade! He tarried in a big way! I feel that part of the lesson I needed was to keep moving forward in faith, not to give up in any way. I was struck, too, that it was in the temple that He gave me this blessing. (My heart wants to plead with you not to walk away from the temple. This is a key place where we can keep focused on Christ.)
A book that had a huge huge impact on me was When Your Prayers Seem Unanswered by S. Michael Wilcox. I reviewed it recently here.
BTW, I think doubt is a normal part of life. The key is how we respond to that doubt. I pray you can find a way to choose faith in spite of the pain, and trust in what you knew all those years. These experiences can help us grow and stretch spiritually if we let them. It’s like when Peter walked on the water, but then saw the waves. When he was focused steadfastly on the Savior, he was fine. When he focused on the waves and trouble around him, he began to sink. It’s so easy to focus on the waves, but the key to getting through the troubles of life is to focus on Him, to really trust in Him. I am learning that faith is work, and to bring its full fruit in my life, it requires all that I have — all my heart, thoughts, desires, everything. I find that I hold back if I hold onto my will and my understanding rather than ‘let go and let God.’ Trust Him. Trust the answers and experiences you have received.
Comment by m&m — December 12, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
TAG–I have felt exactly as you describe, that God knew but didn’t love me. Those were dark times and a long while ago, but time hasn’t faded the vivid recall of how awful I felt. You have my full-hearted empathy. I hope I have time to offer something besides that later in the day, but for now just know you’re in my heart and prayers. I also offer my sympathies regarding your family tragedies. I am so, so sorry.
Comment by Janet — December 12, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
I’m going anon on this one. I had an experience a few years ago where the spirit clearly communicated to me that a situation would turn out a certain way. I had several blessings that confirmed what I had felt. I was devastated when the situation turned out the exact opposite as I felt (something bad happened to my child), and had been told in priesthood blessings. I am still not where I was in my faith before that happened, but I am working on it. I think it’s a time thing. I truly wish I could say something more than that, something comforting. I can’t, because I’m still not totally healed yet. But I understand, and I feel for you.
Comment by Anon — December 12, 2007 @ 3:07 pm
TAG, you have had a lot of loss, I am so sorry. The experience you are having is something I have gone through recently. I still struggle, but it does get better. I get tired of falling flat on my butt and there are days when I feel that I can’t accomplish anything good then something happens, something good. Not big or overwhelming, just like a whisper.
I tell God that I think He is trying to teach an egg to fly, but He says He knows what He’s doing. I guess its like the Kirtland experience (thank you Reese), and now, I am north of Nauvoo. Freezing. Chipping ice off the steps and praying for Summer. Then we take the kids sledding and I feel something good when I see them happy. Its just little things, but look for them.
Comment by KFJ — December 12, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Thank you all so much for your kind words. I wrote this e-mail last week and debated whether to send it to Lisa until yesterday when I just went for it. I’ve never seen something I’ve written published online (except blog comments) so it was quite something to see it up here.
I’m rather overwhelmed by so many things right now. I’ve ordered the Bruce Hafen book and the Mother Theresa book this afternoon! When I read that story about the Saints in Kirtland and Nauvoo, it seemed to speak directly to me, in a way that Church things have failed to resonate with me in a very long time.
There’s so much I didn’t include here, about going from embarassing riches to real poverty, struggling with working full time as a secretary and going to school full time, with even a stint with a second job as a cleaning lady after a life as a stay-at-home mom (which, I know, isn’t necessarily easy, either, but for me it was much easier than this!), marriage problems, and my dad being diagnosed with cancer and refusing treatment. (Who can blame him?)
At the visitation for my sister, I was a mess. Embarassingly so, but what are you going to do? I spoke to my mom’s Methodist minister about these feelings of not feeling the Spirit, and one of you reminded me of what he said. He said that Christ had to suffer on the cross alone, and maybe I needed to suffer alone too for a time. I told him that I thought that was asking too much of me since I’m not Christ or even very Christ-like. (Despite my name meaning, “Believer of Christ.”) And all of you saying you’ve been through this, and some of you that it’s taken years to get better, well, that’s just scary.
I really do appreciate all of your comments and support, especially that so many say you know how this feels, that you’ve lived this. That’s the thing, I feel SO ALONE, and, as Katie P. said, I have always been able to feel the Spirit. It’s surely one of my spiritual gifts, and it’s scary to not have it now. But I now know I can feel a little less alone because there are others who have felt this way and survived. Thank you.
Lisa, Janet, all of you, you really can’t know how much this blog has helped me and so many other people. Thank you.
Comment by TAG — December 12, 2007 @ 3:35 pm
Feelings, inner voices, and intuition can be powerful. Unfortunately, they are not a reliable source of truth.
I have had similar experiences that you are describing, TAG, and my mother’s parents were in inexhaustible source of stories of how they survived World War II paying attention to phenomena that Mormons would refer to as the Holy Ghost. Unfortunately, their biography is also dotted with regularly recurring poor choices.
The technique described in Alma 32, for example, is eerily familiar to wishful thinking. On the other hand, in a dangerous moment, there is not enough time to compute the available information to arrive at a rational decision.
On balance, it’s probably a good idea to let one’s feelings inform one’s decisions but it would be a mistake to attribute divine authority to them. Even LDS history is full of people who claimed to be inspired only to become apostates. One of the most famous conflict over inspiration is probably the heated reply of Delbert Stapley who told Juanita Brooks that her inspiration originated from Satan.
The point is that there is just no reliable to way to distinguish truthful and errant feelings. That’s an important lesson about the Holy Ghost if we want to protect ourselves and our families from harm.
Comment by Hellmut — December 12, 2007 @ 4:01 pm
TAG - I have been going through this for years, and it wasn’t until recently that I felt the touch of the Spirit again. When my frustration was worst, I remembered a few talks like this one and this one of the Savior’s Atonement. Though the time I have felt abandoned by the Spirit has been some of my worst, because of it I have gained an understanding of the Atonement I could not otherwise have had.
It seems of little comfort when you are yearning after the Spirit only to find nothing, but as Elder Holland once said to me, “Don’t give up. Just don’t give up.”
Comment by SilverRain — December 12, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
This statement is false.
Begin where ever you are, pray for inspiration from the Spirit. Pay attention to the “feelings” or promptings associated with this prayerful request and where those answers lead. Follow the promptings which lead you to more light…to the Lord.
Comment by Howard — December 12, 2007 @ 5:30 pm
The trouble is, Howard, that any number of people only followed their feelings not only to their detriment but also misled others.
For illustration, just look at the MLM craze in Utah. The epistemology of feelings might be contributing to the fact that Utah leads the nation in that respect.
You also might have noticed the dispute between Delbert Stapley and Juanita Brooks in my post. Both were convinced that they were inspired. At least one of them was wrong.
Comment by Hellmut — December 12, 2007 @ 5:58 pm
I agree with Hellmut. My own experience tells me his statement is not false.
I do believe that God loves us and wants to communicate with us, but “good feelings” and promptings are not always God. So many people have been harmed by others in petty and also in horrifying ways by people who are convinced they are doing what God wants them to do.
I don’t know how to find pure truth, but I do know it is an intensely personal journey.
Comment by LostinDreams — December 12, 2007 @ 6:46 pm
To be truthful, I’m not too sorry you are experiencing what you are, but I can empathize 100%. When I have these times in my life, I always seem to come through with a better understanding of myself and the love Heavenly Father has for me and somehow end up appreciating the drought. Of course this is hindsight, I’m not so enlightened in the middle of a spiritual drought. There are a few things that get me through such droughts:
1. Knowing that one purpose of the Holy Ghost is to bring all things to my remembrance. Because I have felt his influence in the past, I know it is possible and I just have to keep praying and be patient.
2. Someone once told me that no matter how many times you’ve felt the influence of the Spirit, you should ask Heavenly Father in each prayer to help you recognize the spirit. I’ve found that as I learn new things or have new/exciting/hard experiences, the Spirit speaks to me in different ways with different emotions/thoughts/feelings/influences. Also, praying for an eternal/long-tern perspective regarding your situation or others is helpful.
3. Elder Bednar once talked about praying for not just the Spirit, but the Spirit of discernment, which will help you distinguish not just right from wrong, but good from better and will help you have a higher level of feeling.
4. Lastly, the qutoe from Brigham Young that says something like: there are times when you don’t feel like praying, but those are the exact times when you should get on your knees and pray. Sometimes being obedient is hollow, but I believe that even though it feels hollow, your perseverance and sacrifice will bring you peace if you are open to it.
5. Wait, I have one more lastly, speaking of peace. Sometimes peace is what needs to be sought after, not a specific answer to a specific problem. I find that sometimes looking for specifics blinds me to the greater picture.
My heart yearns for you. It is so hard to feel like you’ve lost something you cherish. Especially something you rely upon for support and direction. But there is hope. Sometimes in your despair, your hopes get you through.
Comment by Nutty — December 12, 2007 @ 7:08 pm
Hellmut and LostinDreams,
Please explain how following “…the promptings which lead you to more light…to the Lord.” can result in your examples.
Comment by Howard — December 12, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
TAG-I’ve sometimes found it helpful to stop listening for a voice somewhere outside myself and to tune in more acutely to my own inner-voice(s). In the largest possible scheme of things god made me and all my internal babbles just as s/he made the holy spirit, so whether my guidance comes from an inner power or from somewhere outside myself, it’s still, essentially, from god…
In reference to the experience with your sister, I’d agree with previous posters that it’s really easy to misunderstand god’s voice (wherever it comes from) and a deep assurance that everything will be well, could just as easily mean that your sister will soon be well, as in be well and with god, as it could mean everything will be well and she’ll regain health. Part of faith, and trust, for me, is letting go of the need to know for certain what exactly that assurance means in each particular situation. All is well. Let go.
Comment by Amy S. — December 12, 2007 @ 8:08 pm
Also, sorry, but I just have to add. Doubt is the leaven of faith. Don’t beat yourself up for being full of doubt. It only means your human. With no questions or doubts, we’d have no need to stretch into the dark. I don’t believe god has quit speaking because you’re full of doubt, you’re just growing towards a much more mature faith.
Comment by Amy S. — December 12, 2007 @ 8:11 pm
Howard, the problem is that it is not always clear which promptings lead you to the Lord. Delbert Stapley and Juanita Brooks each believed that their promptings led to the Lord and yet they contradicted each other.
Of course, once you are with the Lord things are clear but in the meanwhile the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are plenty of good feelings on the same road.
Comment by Hellmut — December 12, 2007 @ 9:16 pm
Two years ago my aunt died from cancer. It was a very painful and long illness. Her illness shook my faith a lot, but her death actually made my faith stronger. Her passing was so peaceful and beautiful. She was suddenly “there”, out of a comatose state and smiling as she died. My point is, perhaps you misinterpreted the Spirit. To you the communication “she is going to get better,” meant recovery. Maybe the Spirit meant, she was going to get better by being released from pain and going to our Heavenly Father. It is never easy nor fair to lose someone we love, please give yourself time to grieve. I am sure you will hear the Spirit again.
Comment by Lisa — December 12, 2007 @ 9:44 pm
Sorry Hellmut, I know there was a disagreement but am not familiar with the details of the Delbert Stapley and Juanita Brooks story.
Please elaborate on the specific promptings they each believed they received, how these promptings contradicted one another and why this contradiction proves that “there is just no reliable to way to distinguish truthful and errant feelings”.
Comment by Howard — December 12, 2007 @ 10:24 pm
I can accept that maybe what I was feeling that day when I thought my sister was going to be better was a misinterpretation on my part. That makes sense.
But what Adam said in #8 - that peace can’t be duplicated by Satan - that’s what upsets me so much. It’s really not that I felt she was going to get better - I mean, I felt that, but I’m really not angry that my brother died and my sister died and my dad is going to die. We all die! I realize that.
It’s that I feel like the Lord knows me personally, He knows my pain, He knows I need peace, and he is purposely withholding it. I know He can give it to me - He gave it to me after my brother died, a very tangiable sense of peace, moreso than I’ve ever felt in my life, and that, at this point, it is just not being given to me.
My line of thinking has been this: 1. The Lord knows me personally. 2. I have proven able to feel the Spirit in the past. 3. I can’t feel the Spirit currently. 4. Hence, the Lord isn’t granting me the Spirit, despite knowing my pain and need and all that. And that makes me very angry at Him.
And Hellmut, I realize that maybe this is some imaginary construct of my mind. As I said, I’m doubting and if I were to give my testimony at church, it would be a lot of “I hope” statements (”I hope the Church is true,” “I hope Jesus is my Savior”) - I’m not even to “believe” or “think” let alone the “know” that I used to say. But I don’t even have the possible imaginary peace that I had before, from whatever source it came. I just want it back.
Comment by TAG — December 12, 2007 @ 10:56 pm
“…that makes me very angry at Him.”
“I just want it back.”
Comment by Howard — December 12, 2007 @ 11:28 pm
All I can do is to tell you what I did when I hit rock bottom earlier this year. I spent many years trying to give my problems over to the Lord, but He would not take them. I simply couldn’t understand it. I believed that I could be healed from the pain in my heart, and I couldn’t understand why the healing was not coming. I had been praying to see as God sees and to know as He knows. Finally, in desperation, I cried out to God, “I know nothing; teach me!” I laid everything at His feet: my family, my religion, my friends, my very life. You can only understand this complete state of surrender if you have experienced it yourself.
Shortly after I surrendered, I found healing. The Lord had been withholding nothing from me. I realized that I was the one who had been blocking the peace, joy, and love, because until that moment of surrender, I had not been willing to completely let go of my own agenda. I have never been the same since that day.
I used to have a long list of “I knows.” But now all I can say is that I believe in love. And that is more profound to me than any of my “I knows” ever were.
I think you might enjoy reading Meister Eckhart. I agree with your Mother’s minister that Christ’s life can be a powerful metaphor for what we must go through. Hang in there. I think you are close to receiving the peace you are seeking.
Comment by Wild Horses — December 12, 2007 @ 11:45 pm
1. The Lord knows me personally. 2. I have proven able to feel the Spirit in the past. 3. I can’t feel the Spirit currently. 4. Hence, the Lord isn’t granting me the Spirit, despite knowing my pain and need and all that.
I was with you until #4, but I think maybe it’s worth considering there is a different #4, and then maybe a #5 that you haven’t yet discovered.
The Lord doesn’t play games. His ways are not our ways, but He’s not going to toy with you. I have heard before that we can’t expect past efforts to yield the same results as we move forward, if we expect to progress. We should be stretching in our sacrifices if we expect to increase in our ability to feel the Spirit. This is not a static thing. So what interested me is that you say you are reading, praying all the same as before. You aren’t going to the temple, which means there is something different there (something not the same). I wonder…something to consider maybe? … maybe it will take more than what you put in before to get that peace. I know how hard that is, because the peace is so important…but it’s never about God not caring. He wants us to grow and progress, and we can’t do that with the same ol’ same ol’ all of our lives.
I also share Wild Horses’ experience. It is only when I have been willing to give up everything — my will, my thoughts, my picture of what things ’should’ be — that I have been able to find that peace in my darkest moments. True surrender brings healing in amazing ways.
But you know? I have also found that He cares about me, even when I’m feeling mad. Talk to Him, wherever you are in your journey. If you are mad, talk to Him. Tell Him why. Get it all out. Turn TO him in your pain and anger, not away. Talk to Him. Read this post to Him, maybe.
Sometimes I’m not ready to surrender all yet, but I still try to turn to Him, even if I’m upset. Start wherever you are. Keep searching your heart and praying for guidance to know what you can be doing to find His peace again. Ask Him to help you WANT to do what you can do to feel it again. He can guide you, from wherever you are, to take whatever the next step is for you. That will be different for each of us! And different depending on where we are in life! He can help you know what you can do to be in a place and state of mind where He can give you peace. But it helps to remember that it will come in His time and His way. That is the hard part…accepting His will in all of it all.
I think there are many people here who would say (and have said) that they can look back on their dark times and see the hand of God guiding them and stretching them and helping them grow beyond where they had been. I know this is the case with me, and it makes a difference with how I face more trials as they come - because I have learned that the lack of peace is not about Him not caring, it’s quite the opposite. He cares enough to help me grow. Just like I won’t run to my children every time they fall when they are learning to walk or learning to live…but I am always there, always loving them, always caring. If I rescued them every time they really wanted me to, they wouldn’t grow.
Comment by m&m — December 13, 2007 @ 12:45 am
TAG–I’ve debated all day whether I should say this, and haven’t had time to read the comments to see if anyone else has. I have misinterpreted God’s spirit in the past–when it really has been Him and I’ve just taken the inchoate revelation and put the wrong words to it. Your sister no longer feels pain and is, in a sense, healed. Certainly not how you wanted or hoped, but she is healed. Frankly, death frightens me. I find little comfort knowing my loved one is at peace when I miss them terribly. But I do think that death can heal; it’s one of the many things I got out of Terry Tempest Williams *Refuge*–which I recommend highly.
I so desperately do not want this observation to sound callous or dismissive. I LOATHE when people attempt to comfort a grieving person by noting that the dead loved one is in a “better place” because that knowledge does little assuage the crippling pain of remaining behind in mortality, wanting to hold the person who is no longer flesh and blood. Please understand that I no way mean to dismiss the intensity of your pain or the depth of the betrayal you feel. I only speak from experience and may be wrong. Two years ago I was quite, QUITE certain God had promised me something. He kept His promise, but it was not on the terms as I understood my revelation at the time. Revelation usually is inchoate, and that’s problematic.
I grieve for you. Feeling unloved by God is the hardest thing I’ve ever experienced–and in the midst of the worst trial of my life. You’ve had so much thrown at you all at once, and it seems dreadfully unfair to have the additional peril of “Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani” added to it (spelling could be off there). Christ’s lonliness on the cross makes us no less lonely–it just tells us we aren’t alone. And those aren’t the same things.
Anyhow, I may not be making sense. I send many cyberhugs and prayers your way.
Comment by Janet — December 13, 2007 @ 12:56 am
I’m so sorry for your loss. Janet’s comment resonates with my experience with interpreting the spirit. I know that my deepest feelings cannot always be attached to words — I think of verse in Romans “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.” I also keep returning to this quote from “Their Eyes Were Watching God.”
“There is a basin in the mind where words float around on thought and thought on sound and sight. Then there is a depth of thought untouched by words, and deeper still a gulf of formless feelings untouched by thought. Nanny entered this infinity of conscious pain again on her old knees. Towards morning she muttered, ‘Lawd, you know mah heart. Ah done de best Ah could do. De rest is left to you.”
And I wonder if, in moments of feeling the spirit — moments of peace or inexplicable joy — I attach words that should not be attached to interpret these ineffable feelings. Because of course I *want* an interpretation. I want *words.* But maybe I’m simply offered a momentary reminder that God is present. I wish I could be content, more often, with that–simply that–as the “answer.”
Comment by Deborah — December 13, 2007 @ 7:13 am
TAG — the last paragraph has much more to do with an insight I needed to tell myself than one that might apply to your situation. Thank you, though, for sharing your struggles. The prayer of the forsaken runs deep in our collective consciousness, but when its our moment of feeling it . . . I think comfort is beyond what any words can provide. But we try anyway! I hope you soon feel the spirit’s intercessions for your “groanings that cannot be uttered.”
Comment by Deborah — December 13, 2007 @ 7:23 am
TAG,
As a life-long member, I have often felt the spirit. I do not have the ability to constantly discern the still-small-voice. I have always considered this due to three main things. My unworthiness (including not just not sinning, but not doing all I could to seek the spirit), my own desires screaming louder than the spirit, or just the fact that when you have the gift of the holy ghost as your constant companion, it’s possible to not be aware how much it is guiding you. Then there is the problem of interpretation…
This is my experience where I misunderstood the spirit. When my son Alec was 3 months old, he underwent a series of test to find out why a (in all other ways) healthy boy was still jaundiced. We had ruled out several serious and not-so-serious diseases. We were left with two possibilities- a minor blockage of the bile ducts which could be fixed with minor surgery, and biliary atresia, which would eventually require a liver transplant. My husband and I prayed mightily and both got answers of peace and “it will be alright”. We were so confident that this little hiccup would be resolved by the surgery, that we were in total shock when a surgeon came to us in the middle of the operation and told us they had diagnosed biliary atresia and were prepping my son for a “Kasai” proceedure to lengthen the amount of time he would have before transplant.
Our world collapsed. I don’t think I’ve ever cried that hard. To me, the idea of transplant was synonomous with death. Fast forward nine years. While we have been through sickness, transplant, rejection, and cancer with this kid, God has led us through all of this. Our family has been incredibly blessed. Things have been tough at times. 2006 really sucked. But 2007 has been great with Alec cancer-free and as healthy as any other nine-year-old. I know this roller-coaster isn’t over. I hope that I can hold on to the good times during the bad. I have a different perspective about my children than most moms. Although no one is given guarantees, I have to face the fact that I might outlive my child. Despite my beliefs, that scares me. I can’t focus on that thought and have a normal life for him or me.
Awhile back, when I felt like my testimony was wavering, I drug myself to church. I really had a feeling that day that I needed to go or my testimony would sink deeper. It was fast and testimony meeting. I hadn’t fasted (nine months pregnant) and certainly hadn’t planned it, but I felt overwhelmed by the spirit and I bore my testimony. I have no idea exactly what I said, but I felt the spirit as I hadn’t for weeks-maybe months. The spirit continued to overwhelm me throughout the block. I came home so happy and renewed. I had a testimony. I felt the spirit. I knew God loved me. I knew I wasn’t doing all I could to have that feeling more often. But I gained a testimony of bearing your testimony. I’ve always been taught (and taught myself) that that’s a great way to grow your testimony, but now I know it’s true. That’s my suggestion. Bear your testimony of what you do know.
Sorry for the long post…Good luck to you in your struggles.
Comment by sofia — December 13, 2007 @ 10:11 am
Reese, . . . amen.
TAG,
I’m reminded of 2 NE 31:20
“20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of HOPE, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.
Also, I think that “all men” is meant for every child of God, including me and including you. Remember to keep thinking positively about your worth as a child of God, a daughter of God. Treat negative thoughts about yourself like the plague, and remember that you are ok, just keep CTR’ing and using what you already know at this moment. Cling to the bright hope.
Have you read the story about the origin of the song, ‘I heard the bells on Christmas day’ ? I think you’d find it very relevant. (Stories of our LDS Hymns).
Comment by J.A.T. — December 13, 2007 @ 10:11 am
I knew felt I had revelation. It didn’t happen. Now I don’t trust anything. I sit in church and listen to people say, “The Lord told me.” and I think they are idiots. I give 110% to my calling and am often told what a great job I do. My children get all their church awards. We have Family Home Evening. If people in the ward knew that I’ll never stand up in Fast and testimony meting again, they would be surprised. Sometimes I think I feel the spirit and then I think that I supposed I was feeling it before and it was a lie. The mind can conjure up anything it wants. I have thought a lot about telling someone this experience–a bishop, stake president, etc–But I’m so indoctrinated I know their answer. They’d say I misread the inspiration–I wanted it too badly, it’s an eternal blessing. The problem is, their answer would fit for any revelations. We want the Book of Mormon to be true because we have invested so much of our life in its truthfulness. We want tithing to help us out or we would recent all that money we’ve blown. If it wasn’t for my husband and his dedication and that I want to support him, I’d probably leave.
Comment by allie — December 13, 2007 @ 10:54 am
allie,
What was it you believed would happen…but didn’t?
Comment by Howard — December 13, 2007 @ 11:15 am
I have no idea where this analogy came from.
(Pretend we’re drawing at a chalkboard).
If we were to graph our learning progression (as spirits and humans), it isn’t a straight line 45 degree increase from (0,0) to (10,10). (Looks like this: / ) Some have asserted that it looks more like a stock-market graph, with ups and downs, hopefully more ups than downs over a lifetime, but still moving from (0,0) to (10,10).
I instead like to think of it as a vertical ladder made of backward letter “Z”s. (Kinda like the old Atari game ‘Donkey Kong’).
We continue on a (horizontal plane) using what we know, applying, investigating, searching, ’step-by-stepping’, preparing, growing, etc. We move from left _ _ _ _ _ to right as we do so. When we master that level, we come to the end of that plane. Then, we experience a learning point at which we “Eureka!” and zag up to the next plane. The zagging involves the ‘ah-ha’ or ‘eureka’ moments we have in life when we ‘get it’. After that upward zing, we arrive at the very left (or beginning) of a higher plane. We have to continue living, applying, investigating at a higher level until we progress again from the left to the right, when we make another “Eureka” zap up to the next level. (See it make a bunch of letter “Z”s stacked vertically on to of each other? ) It is a lot like learning math, we have to ‘get’ certain things and practice until we can start at the beginnig with a higher math concept.
Sometimes I wonder if our guided walks with the spirit aren’t part of the exciting zagging. However, sometimes we might need to spend some time on the plane we’ve been raised to. As others have pointed out, sometimes there is a need to walk with a lamp to your feet instead of following a noon-day sun to orient yourself.
Sometimes it can look disappointing b/c it seems like you are at the very far left again, and the growing phase starts all over and that exciting zagging isn’t happening right away. Actually, it is just part of the cycle of learning something new.
Just keep putting patiently one foot in front of the other.
Comment by J.A.T. — December 13, 2007 @ 11:20 am
Well, I don’t know if I understood all that, but I love the Donkey Kong reference.
Comment by TAG — December 13, 2007 @ 11:23 am
first off this post has been almost scary to read. it conjures up old memories for me. the times of desperation, times of lonliness and times of peace and joy.
it’s also a reminder that even though my life, at this time is quiet and full of happiness, it can all disappear with a phone call. And that I too, may find myself not believing that god loves me.
TAG,
.)
I am like you. I’ve always had the gift to feel the spirit. even when I was a little girl, I could recognize God in my life. 8 years ago, when I joined the church, it was amazing to put the pieces of my life together and actually understand what those feelings were.
even now, as I write this…WOW!!!
36. wild horses.
i agree with this 100 percent. I am posting because of this statement. it’s a peice of advise I might offer to a friend in hard times but…
the problems is that when someone is doesn’t have faith in god, it can be pretty difficult for them to surrender to a god they don’t believe is listening.
Comment by mfranti — December 13, 2007 @ 11:48 am
jat-thanks for sharing that scripture- 2 ne 31:20
I read that scripture with the missionaries and I “knew”. it’s also a scripture I rely on when my faith is lacking. it’s a place I go back to to remind my “why” I am here and “how” it came to be.
someone said to go back and remember or trust in the previous spiritual experiences and for me it’s reading that scripture.
I would hope that each one of us will ememer the times that the Lord was with us.
Comment by mfranti — December 13, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
mfranti (#47) said:
What fascinates me is that you don’t have to believe in God in order to surrender. DIfferent religions, cultures, and psychologists refer to surrender in different ways. Some say we need to surrender to the universe, others say to love, and yet others say we need to accept what life gives us. The grieving cycle, after all, ends in acceptance. So the key is being willing to accept life’s curve balls and to find joy in the experience of living. It’s when we stop trying to force our life to look perfect in our own eyes (whatever our definition of perfect may be) that we can ultimately find peace.
Comment by Wild Horses — December 13, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
..and so we agree again. i would have liked to include such statments in my post but i’m lazy. also, I used “god” since most of us here are talking about him.
but you are correct. the surrender part is so vital in moving forward.
in the original posters case, she now believes god or his spirit let her down and that disappointment’/anger/frustration is what is going to hold her back from surrendering
i don’t know how to explain it with a keyboard. i really need to talk my way through it (using my body) and unfortunately blog posts dont work that way.
Comment by mfranti — December 13, 2007 @ 12:19 pm
Ironically, I received this quote in an email this morning, and I thought about you, TAG. I know it doesn’t say much more than what’s already been written, but I thought it could help:
“There are times when you are fearful, when the stress and busyness of life seem to overwhelm you, when you feel adrift from the Spirit. Perhaps you even feel as though you have been abandoned. When I encounter those feelings, the best antidote is my memory of the moments when Christ’s peace has come to strengthen me. . . . I invite you to remember with me what it is to feel the Lord’s love in your life and to feel encircled in His arms.”
(Kathleen H. Hughes, “Remembering the Lord’s Love,” Ensign, Nov. 2006, 111)
Comment by cheryl — December 13, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
As I’ve gotten older I have come to see the Lord’s interaction with us being primarily based on feelings, not on answers. It is only rarely that I have clear distict directions given to me through the spirit. We are left to make our own decisions based on the feelings we recieve. When I feel peaceful, I know the Lord is with me through the good and bad.
My favorite image of the Lord’s interaction comes from Elie Wiesel - who viewed God, not as a rescuer from our problems, but as an active participant in our experience. He wrote that “God accompanies (us) weeping, smiling, whispering.” This is echoed in D&C 122 and Enoch’s experience with the weeping God.
Comment by Gilgamesh — December 13, 2007 @ 12:38 pm
Howard,
I don’t know that it matters what I felt, but the feeling was the same as that “assurance” that you “know” the Book of Mormon is true. The “whisperings” about the event occurred over a several year period. I would walk into a room and “the still small voice” would tell me.
It was all wrong, my “revelation” the “still small voice” all of it. so now I look at the negative about the church i.e. the history, the nepotism, the contradictory teachings. I used to think that people left the church because they sinned or they weren’t strong. I haven’t sinned, and I presently carry more than my share of the ward work. We’re one of those families that are there early, clean up, can be called upon on a moments notice. But not I understand now how I could leave because it’s so much work to be that “perfect” person the “Molly Mormon” for something that may not be true.
The worst part is, I thought I had help raising my children. I thought I could pray and get answers, now I wonder if all the answers are nothing but my own choices being accompanied by some sort of hyped chemical response.
I wish someone could tell me something that would take that fear away.
Comment by allie — December 13, 2007 @ 1:04 pm
allie,
I left the church and went on my own for more than 30 years, I thought I was having a good time but looking back, now I realize that I was in spiritual darkness. It was not an easy road. A profound and unexpected encounter with the Spirit turned my life around. “My own choices being accompanied by some sort of hyped chemical response”? Nope, it was and IS much more than that. It was difficult to come back, I had been excommunicated, so it’s been challenging but very rewarding.
Being the “perfect” person the “Molly Mormon” is fluff, it’s just appearances. Be kinder to yourself and let some of that go. For now, who cares if the church is true? A personal relationship with Christ is the part that is worth working for.
“…now I wonder…I wish someone could tell me something that would take that fear away.” What is the fear?
Comment by Howard — December 13, 2007 @ 2:07 pm
cheryl,
That was a quote that I was thinking about yesterday with this thread…so glad you posted it!
allie, you do have help. Keep focusing on the things that build faith in the Savior and in prayer and in all that is good. If you focus on the negative, you will sow negativity. Focus on things that can build faith. Believe.
Comment by m&m — December 13, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
cheryl,
That was a quote that I was thinking about yesterday with this thread…so glad you posted it!
aliie, you do have help. Keep focusing on the things that build faith in the Savior and in prayer and in all that is good. If you focus on the negative, you will sow negativity. Focus on things that can build faith. Believe.
Comment by m&m — December 13, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
allie, p.s., I’m not trying to throw your pain back into your face. I want to come give you a hug, give you hope. But hope and faith are a choice, not just something that come out of nowhere. They are a result of choices we make with what we think, what we sow in our minds and hearts. All I’m saying is that you don’t have to feel what you are feeling. I want you to feel that hope, that you don’t have to stay stuck where you are, afraid and skeptical. But the key is that it will take you choosing to believe, choosing to risk again, taking that proverbial leap of faith. No one can do that for you. Maybe you can start by considering that it’s not idiocy to believe. (I can’t imagine that you will want to believe if you think that believing is somehow a sign of stupidity, ya know?
)
Comment by m&m — December 13, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
During a time when my own faith was severely tested, I read a book called “When God Doesn’t Make Sense” by James Dobson. I’m not usually a big fan of Dobson’s, but that book really spoke to me.
Comment by Rivkah — December 13, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
My fear is that we are just all doing this on our own. That these children, all of which I did not give birth to, just came to us by chance and not by the hand of God. The “miracle” that each of them seemed is nothing more than chance. I fear that I have nothing more than my own knowledge how to raise them. I fear that all the ridicule that they get for not playing ball on Sunday, for not going snow boarding on Sunday, for not dating until sixteen, for by passing the coffee at the student cafe will someday make them bitter adults because they will someday be like me and feel abandoned. Although abandoned I can deal with because abandoned isn’t forever, but for me it’s more than abandoned, it feels like maybe the atheists are right. It’s all just chance.
Comment by allie — December 13, 2007 @ 3:07 pm
rivkah,
you reminded me of a favorite quote by evangelical leader jim wallis
“My Bible says faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,” he says. “My best paraphrase of that passage is this: ‘Faith is believing despite the evidence and watching the evidence change.’ ”
Comment by mfranti — December 13, 2007 @ 3:09 pm
allie,
Yes, that is frightening!
But, if you actually knew that we are “just all doing this on our own”, it wouldn’t create fear, would it? So, in a way, you fear, your ambivalence is actually a little bit of faith. You’re not sure, it could be either way. This is the place to start if you want to know for sure. Share your fear, your ambivalence with Him and ask for knowledge.
Comment by Howard — December 13, 2007 @ 3:32 pm
Allie, you are not on your own and even if you were, it would not be the end of the world. Gentiles are successfully raising children everywhere in the world, often with better outcomes than Mormon families.
Parenting is challenging and all of us are making mistakes as parents but it does not require a supernatural effort. If you are a making a conscientious but imperfect effort then your children will enjoy a better parent than most of their peers.
I do think it can be dangerous to rely on prayer as a parent. There is no reliable way to distinguish our own feelings, fears, and desires from the will of God. Doubting parents will be more effective than those who wrongly assume that their feelings represent the will of God.
It’s best to be humble rather than assuming that we have access to the mind of God.
Howard, Delbert Stapley was pressuring Juanita Brooks not to publish that John D. Lee had been reinstated as a member of the LDS Church. Brooks replied that she had received the confirmation of the Holy Ghost to publish that fact. Stapley replied that her revelation was from the devil.
Mind you, this is what Brooks related about the encounter. Regardless of whether this properly reflects Stapley’s perspective, it is interesting because the story illustrates that one can never be entirely sure if feelings are just a product of our bodies.
TAG, I am sorry that you lost the comfort of certainty. Nothing is more dangerous, however, than unjustified certainty. Although you experience loss, it might be a necessary step to a more responsible life.
Promises of certainty or divine knowledge are probably not a proper reading of the gospel.
I have to admit though that I am not an authority on matters of theology. From an ethical and political point of view, however, I have to say that I would not want any part of a theology that promises certainty. In fact, communities that promise certainty at best deliver self-righteousness and are prone to violence in the name of god.
May be, you can find some peace by embracing a tiny dose of fatalism. What will be, will be. May be, it’s a good thing that we are not in charge, not even vicariously by relying on our divine brother.
For one thing, such an attitude would unburden us from responsibility for matters, which are really not in our power.
Comment by Hellmut — December 13, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
Hellmut,
Brooks was prompted to publish. We are not sure about Stapley’s perspective.
So, how does this illustrate “that one can never be entirely sure if feelings are just a product of our bodies.”
Comment by Howard — December 13, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
Mfranti (#60), I like that quote a lot.
We are never absolutely compelled by the evidence to believe anything, because that would make faith unnecessary—and since faith is not to have “a perfect knowledge,” it entails a certain amount of doubt or uncertainty. And I believe there has to be purpose in that uncertainty.
I find that if I can just hang in there during those times when the heavens are closed to me, I usually emerge—eventually—on the other side with a faith that is more complex, more rich, and ultimately stronger. But man, those silent times—the “long, dark nights of the soul”—are hard!
Comment by Rivkah — December 13, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
Amen Rikvah and Mfranti. Faith without doubt isn’t faith at all. Annoying, but also true. I do so love Rilke’s quotation:
So doing prevents–at least for me–spiritual paralysis.
Comment by Janet — December 13, 2007 @ 5:18 pm
Thank you to all who have responded to my concerns. I have something to think about. I have read on the bloggernacle before, but never commented. Except for my husband, I have never spoken of these doubts to anyone. Some days I feel very alone with all these “true believers” in our ward. I’m off now to gather bath robes for the shepherds, nylon rope to tie up the angel costumes, and additional lights for the stage. After the ward dinner and nativity, no one will know that the one in charge is such a Doubting Thomas.
Comment by allie — December 13, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
allie–I bet you’re not the only Doubting Thomas in your ward ranks. Most of us travel that path at some point or another!
Glad to have you on the site, and good luck with what sounds like quite the pageant production (after which, I assume, there shall be casserole and with any luck “better than sex cake”).
Comment by Janet — December 13, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
Alli and others–I am struck by how common this experience is. I wonder if there might be anyone who has not experienced this kind of drought. I certainly have. I have a mentally ill child who hears God talking constantly. This person is certain it is God, except when everything goes haywire and then the voices turn mean and sound like Satan. After years of praying to the true God and asking his intervention, like talk to this kid and set the record straight, I have come to the conclusion that uncertainty is pretty healthy. Sometimes when I pray about this child I feel the spirit and sometimes I don’t. I think that is probably good because then my hopes don’t build only to be dashed.
I remember a time when my sister and I were praying about the same family problem. She couldn’t understand why we didn’t get the same answer. l thought it was probably that we were proposing different solutions. Some years later she while she was serving a mission she told me that she hadn’t realized until then that she didn’t know how to recognize the spirit. The first time she felt the spirit and really knew that’s what it was was at the MTC. (That was for Hellmut)
I used to think that there was test of faith and after that was over, life would be smooth sailing. Now I know that once one test is over it won’t be long before there is another and that when I withstood the latter and got stronger then the next one would be more difficult still.
I find D. & C. 121 and 122 to be most comforting. The part in 122 about gaining experience is helpful. But, I especially like 121:45-46 “”Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish they thought unceasingly; then shall they confidence was strong in the presence of God; . . . The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever.” The idea of not having to force the Spirit is really wonderful.
Comment by Claudia — December 13, 2007 @ 6:18 pm
TAG,
I really feel for you. You have been through so much (and a later comment shows it was more than even your OP said) in such a little bit of time, I wonder if you’re not grieving. Your anger at the Lord seems to be part of this. This is something I’m going through myself right now. I’m still trying to come to terms with the loss of the life I thought I would have due to an illness I have, as well as our struggles with money and trying to find good employment for my husband. Add in post-partum depression, and it’s been a lot of fun in my house the last year.
Anyway, where I’m going with this is that grief is very overwhelming, at least for me. The feelings swell within me until there really isn’t room for much else. I get occasional flashes of the spirit, but with those feelings looming or ready to loom at any moment, mostly, there isn’t room for the spirit to express itself in me. It’s been said, but I think both laying our burdens on the Lord and enduring the end are very applicable in my case, and could be for you.
If I’m just projecting, forgive me, but your post made me think of my own life and struggles the past few years and what I need to learn to do.
Comment by Firebyrd — December 13, 2007 @ 6:22 pm
This post and the ensuing commentary (including the wonderful quote above) are reminding me of something I used to think about all the time when I was severely depressed. I would sit in church and wonder about other people’s trials, in really black moments wondering if I was the only one who had seemingly insurmountable problems, and if my seemingly endless misery was a sign that God had made me calling and damnation sure. It wasn’t that I wanted to be nosy or intrude on anyone’s privacy or force anyone’s confidence; it was just that I felt so keenly the disjunction between the apparent motions I was fumbling desperately through, trying to stagger through the minimum requirements of my life, and the inner despair. I just wanted so desperately to see someone else’s innards, just to know I wasn’t alone. So I used to sit in church and entertain a bizarrely comforting fantasy that all of our trials were somehow revealed to one another. (Don’t get me wrong; it’s not that I actually wanted this to happen. I think that kind of mass revelation would be rather horrifying, actually. Such is the way of fantasies.)
During that time in my life, when I was barely holding it together, some of the kindest things anyone did for me were being willing to talk frankly about their own problems, large and small. It sounds strange, but people’s simple willingness to be honest about the fact that they had problems, that they had weaknesses, that God hadn’t answered their prayers, that they’d evidently misinterpreted God’s seemingly clear answer, that they weren’t even sure there was a God–whatever forms their questions and sorrows took–was a lifeline to me. It was simple, tangible reminder that I wasn’t alone.
Just a long-winded way of wondering how we might cultivate greater supportive candor and push past the superficial interactions. It’s not outside the realm of possibility that doubts and spiritual darkness might be a strange kind of lifeline to someone who thinks she’s the only one.
Comment by Eve — December 13, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
I agree with Eve. I wish I had written this post months ago. It has been like this weight off my shoulders to know that I’m not the only one.
That’s not to say I feel better, exactly. And I think it’s sad that *other* people’s pain makes me feel better! But I think you all understand that it’s good to not feel alone.
Allie, I am struggling with the fact that in a weak moment, I said okay to a woman at church who asked me to do something . . . the branch nativity program . . .how can I say lines about *knowing* the church is true and about things I’m just not sure about anymore? It’s not easy, is it?
I just finished my last assignment for the semester and life will be slowing down a bit for the next four weeks. I have a good friend who has been helping me with all this (I suggested she read this - she doesn’t check her e-mail very often, but when she does read it, I know she’ll think, “I’ve been telling you this stuff for months now!” Well, she’ll think it but be nice enough to not say it!) and she offered to read the New Testament with me. I think I’ll take her up on that.
Comment by TAG — December 13, 2007 @ 7:21 pm
Eve,
I have shared this before, but I will share it again because I think it’s so wonderful, and is something that I think we all have to be willing to make happen, including, and perhaps especially, by being willing to risk and share ourselves. From Sister Kathleen Hughes:
I also hope that our interactions with each other on a more personal level can be this way. No one should feel that they are alone in struggle. I’m grateful that TAG no longer feels alone at least through sharing here.
Comment by m&m — December 13, 2007 @ 7:40 pm
Because Stapley said that Brooks’s inspiration was from the devil, Howard. I thought that was obvious.
Let me give you a couple of other illustrations. For every Mormon bearing testimony, there will be two Pentecostals who will swear that God has told them that the LDS Church is a cult.
A couple of years ago, I encountered somebody posing as a Jew for Jesus who challenged me to pray about the truthfulness of Mormonism for surely God would dissuade me from the error of my ways.
There are dozens of charismatic religions who all feel that they have direct access to divine revelation and yet they all contradict each other as well as Mormonism.
Just look at Martin Harris. He invoked the Holy Ghost on behalf of Joseph Smith, the Shakers, William Strange, David Whitmer, Gladden Bishop, and William Smith before returning into the Brighamite fold. Harris did not encounter a charismatic leader whom he did not feel he needed to endorse.
A little bit of logic would have probably steadied Harris’s pursuit of salvation.
Feelings are invariably a physical function. They can be triggered by external stimuli such as the weather, fire, height, the images of famous or attractive people, babies, or animals. In other cases, our brain can stimulate itself. That’s basic anatomy, Howard.
Clearly, feelings are too unreliable to establish knowledge. The suggestion to the contrary can be harmful. It sets the Saints up to be suckered and worse, when we nurture our wishes according to Alma 32, we might mistake our most selfish and ill-advised enterprises for divine missions. When we reach that mindset then our conscience will no longer protest when we are taking advantage of our fellow Saints.
Comment by Hellmut — December 13, 2007 @ 10:47 pm
Hellmut,
Brooks related that Stapley said…that Brooks’s inspiration was from the devil.
Brooks related that Stapley said. Pretty shaky. Do we know that Stapley believed that he was prompted by the Holy Ghost to say that Brooks’s inspiration was from the devil? Is it possible that Stapley was misquoted? Is it possible that Stapley was simply expressing his opinion?
If this statement is actually true, it simply illustrates that Pentecostals do not hold Mormons in high esteem. It says nothing about the validity of personal revelation from the Holy Spirit.
You are confusing peoples religious convection, personal opinion and mental illness with promptings from the Spirit.
Most people can tell when they are moving toward the Lord and when they are moving away from him. The process is a simple “feed back loop”. Follow the promptings that lead you toward the Lord, not away.
Comment by Howard — December 14, 2007 @ 12:47 am
Howard, you put your finger right on the problem. When we don’t agree with someone’s perspective then we consider their feelings prejudice. When people’s feelings happen to coincide with our agenda then we consider them inspiration.
That happens frequently and, unfortunately, your argument is actually a case in point. You cannot know whether Pentecostals are more or less inspired than yourself. It’s an arrogant and judgmental accusation that illustrates the problems associated with feeling based knowledge claims.
It is unfortunate that Pentecostals look down on us for no better reason than their feelings just as it is unfortunate that you are thinking so lowly of Pentecostals only to defend an unreasonable approach to knowledge.
From a gospel perspective, the tragedy is that we are becoming bad neighbors because we are confusing feelings for knowledge. No matter how strong one’s testimony might be, it will only damn us when it comes at the expense of neighborliness.
From the days of the Kirtland Anti Banking Institution to the contemporary MLM schemes that are pulsing through Mormon culture, unfortunately, there are too many of our brothers and sisters who have no inhibition against taking advantage of their fellow Saints because they are mistaking their aspirations for the will of God.
Sadly, that is an observable phenomenon in almost every large LDS ward.
In my opinion, your uncharitable attitudes towards Pentecostals and other charismatic Christians are resulting from the unreasonable attempt of defending feeling based knowledge claims. Is it really worth it to cling to that illusion if it makes you less charitable?
As our argument demonstrates, when feelings are supposedly reflecting the will of God then anyone who does not share our feelings must be defective or evil.
It is probably no accident that so many Mormons, especially in the Mormon corridor, are distrustful of gentiles and are treating their non-Mormon neighbors with fear and condescension. That’s what one would expect when people are mistaking their feelings for truth.
Comment by Hellmut — December 14, 2007 @ 8:12 am
No Hellmut, this is not the problem. The problem is that you repeatedly chose to mix a broad range of feelings, opinion and mental illness together and equate this mix to promptings from the Spirit.
Mormons are given the “gift of the Holy Ghost” at baptism through the Priesthood, Pentecostals make no such claim.
Perhaps, but it says nothing about promptings from the Spirit.
Your accusation is baseless, I do not think lowly of Pentecostals, nor have I given any indication of this in this thread. Further, I have no knowledge or information that indicates that Pentecostals look down on us, other than your unsupported claim.
If these statements are true, which I doubt, they say nothing about promptings from the Spirit.
This is a baseless personal attack Hellmut, I do not hold uncharitable attitudes towards Pentecostals and other charismatic Christians.
This is unsupported, please explain why.
Comment by Howard — December 14, 2007 @ 9:22 am
I too struggle w/ a testimony…or lack there of. I often question if Heavenly Father & Jesus Christ really exists. I am ashamed & embarrassed that I feel this way. TAG, I have struggled w/ “promptings”. Being “told” to do something only to be dumped on my a$$. I still have a lot of anger toward HF about that ! The only reason I stay in the church is out of obligation. I joined the church when I was a weak, lonely 19 year old. I joined for all the wrong reasons, but I made a commitment & I feel I should do the noble thing & stick w/ it. I can see that it teaches wonderful things. There are a few really great people here too. But spritually, I suck! My friend says maybe I’m one of those people who will have to live their life before I “know” that its true. Right know, I’m fine w/ that. The church is my life now. The life of my family.
One thing I do (& this will sound awful) is fly low. I thank HF for all my blessing. I ask that He helps friends & family….but thats it. I don’t do blessings, I don’t pray to know what I need to do. I just thank Him a lot & leave it at that. I can’t take asking for help or guidance, get an “answer” & then have my world rocked because that answer was wrong, (or was just my own thoughts directing me.?) I can’t read Gods mind. I can’t even understand my own thoughts!
I will pay my tithing, do my service, support my husband, pray, follow the WOW, fast, enjoy & help uplift others around me. I then will hope that if there is a God, He forgives me for being doubtful, weak & deaf to the spirit.
Oh, one more fun tid bit. I have kept this secret from everyone for YEARS. I told my husband just how deeply I struggled about a year ago. A few months ago I made the BIG mistake of telling my struggles to about 5 ladies I do mno w/ . They all seemed very supportive. 1 friend has helped me greatly & still loves me & is not afraid of me.
Anyway, A few months after the spilled beans I was talking to Molly Mormon about this & that, I told her “well you know I still struggle.” (she was at the mno) She looks at me & says. “You are still having problems……..(wait for it!) It don’t get it. …….(wait, its good!)…………..What is your HUSBAND doing wrong?
AAARRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, she then went on & asked how can he be in the Bishopric is he can’t even help (FIX) his wife! AARRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ain’t that a kick in the head!
Comment by Doubtfilledgoodgirl — December 14, 2007 @ 9:44 am
Howard, I am not sure why you would raise the issue of mental health. The fact of the matter is that healthy people are claiming to receive revelation even though they are contradicting each other.
That proves the point that one cannot tell which feelings are from god and which are a function of our body.
Mental health, of course, would complicate the problem but is actually extraneous to this discussion. Perfectly healthy people contradict each other’s claims of inspiration.
With respect to the gift of the Holy Ghost, all Christian faiths lay claim to Christ’s promise at the Pentecost. That’s not an exclusively Mormon feature.
We are talking past each other because you are refusing to empathize with other Christians’ perspective. You would probably understand the problem immediately if you would stop to impose your Mormon lens on the adherents of other religions, many of which match (and contradict) Mormon claims of inspiration.
There is a large variety of charismatic faiths within and beyond Christianity. That alone should persuade an honest observer that feeling based knowledge is not all that reliable.
Comment by Hellmut — December 14, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
“Claims” of inspiration ducks the issue and contradiction of claims of proves nothing.
What path do you follow to find your way to the Lord? The Bible? Is it not full of contradictions? How do you sort them out?
Mormons do not have a monopoly on the Holy Ghost, but the “gift of the Holy Ghost” is an exclusively Mormon feature. The difference is His temporary presence in your life or a right to His constant companionship.
Yes, we are.
Wrong, you know nothing of my empathy for other Christians’ perspective.
Helmutt, you are ill-informed. I AM a Christian, I was baptized a Christian before I returned to the Mormon faith and often still attend.
Comment by Howard — December 14, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
There you go again. You can’t get beyond your Mormon perspective, Howard. Pentecostals, for example, would invert your argument and claim that they are the only one’s having the Holy Ghost and Mormons do not.
I don’t presume to have access to God because I realize that the sacred texts are contradictory. So is inspiration.
The inability of Christians to agree on pretty much anything should be sufficient for reasonable people to recognize that neither feelings nor scripture are a reliable source of knowledge.
For my part, I am contend to live with uncertainty. There is virtue in doubt. Dealing with uncertainty is part of living a responsible and adult life.
Comment by Hellmut — December 14, 2007 @ 3:39 pm
“…should be sufficient for reasonable people to recognize …”
Christianity is rapidly becoming the world’s most popular religion. Are you saying that these people are unreasonable because they do not share your perspective?
Comment by Howard — December 14, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
This is such a wonderful, helpful thread! (Other than Howard and Hellmut’s annoying threadjack, but I guess the real discussion has mostly wound down anyway.)
I’ve felt the same spiritual abandonment TAG, and so many others have described. My feelings were triggered by a bout with depression. I am mostly back to normal, except not spiritually. After reading these comments and looking at myself honestly, I think some of my spiritual block is due to my anger and resentment at God. If I were to honestly lay my burdens at his feet, I would have to leave the resentment, and the insistence that I should have been treated better, along with everything else. I can’t be angry at God for my “dark night of the soul” if I’m ever going to see the light again.
That’s much easier said than done, of course. But this thread has given me a lot to think about, and a lot of hope. It is so nice to know that so many others have gone through something similar, and made it out to the other side. It may sound like I’m comforted by others’ suffering, but actually I’m drawing hope from their faith.
The ironic thing is I’m probably one of those people that other people look at as being a Molly Mormon who has it all together. I’ve got a big, visible calling, and people keep telling me how well I’m doing with it. I keep wondering how long it will be before someone notices I’ve never borne my testimony, despite having frequent opportunities because of the calling. I have parts of a testimony, but not enough to recite the standard litany. It’s nice to hear from others who are slogging their way along too, with all their doubts.
allie, your experience reminds me of one of my own. I did receive personal revelation, and I followed it to the letter. It blew up in my face. I swore I’d never trust an answer to a prayer again. Now, several years later, I’m gaining some perspective and realizing that what I think is a trial may be something God has sent as a blessing. His definitions of ‘trial’ and ‘blessing’ are not the same as my definitions. I learned more from failure than I ever could have learned from success. I’m not yet grateful for that experience, or for the doubts. But failure has increased my compassion, and made God bigger, somehow, if that makes sense. He’s still my God even when he trips me and I land flat on my face, and that’s a bigger God than the God who always guided me to good things. There are more aspects to him. He’s not Santa Claus anymore, so he’s bigger and I have to expand my view of what God wants for me. I don’t know how to say that more eloquently. That might not apply to you at all, allie, but your comments made me think of it.
Comment by Melinda — December 14, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
Hellmut,
Melinda is right about the threadjack. There is no reason to continue this.
Comment by Howard — December 14, 2007 @ 5:01 pm
#72
I am too afraid to ever admit my doubts and spiritual struggles in church. People would shun me or bury me in righteous pity. I fantasize about going down to the cathedral and talking to a priest about my sprititual weaknesses. I like the anonymity of a priest who doesn’t share a carpool or live nextdoor like my bishop.
Comment by anonymous — December 14, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
“I thank HF for all my blessing. I ask that He helps friends & family….but thats it. I don’t do blessings, I don’t pray to know what I need to do. I just thank Him a lot & leave it at that. I can’t take asking for help or guidance, get an “answer” & then have my world rocked because that answer was wrong,”
I can identify with these feelings. Maybe not for the same reasons, but I feel a certain reluctance to reveal too much about myself even in my prayers. I don’t think this is a bad thing. I think it just is and I have so many blessings why do I always have to be asking for more or laying out things that I am better off not thinking about before the Lord. I feel a little embarrassed about pulling my inmost feelings out into the open for anybody perhaps even myself to look at.
I also am firmly convinced that what we feed grows. When one dwells upon doubts, doubts grow bigger. When one dwells on the things that are good and that bring us peace, happiness and enlightenment (the fruits of the spirit), peace, happiness and enlightenment grow. So why not find something besides the things that bring frustration, doubt and unhappiness to focus on. Do something nice for someone. Take a walk. Play basketball. Volunteer somewhere. Take in a movie. Read a book. Make bread. Sew. Whatever is personally relaxing and enjoyable, do more of that.
Comment by Claudia — December 14, 2007 @ 7:06 pm
Hi there, I’ve given some thought to this post, and now that the bickering threadjacking seems to have quieted, maybe I have some insights (see my comment, #1)?
Okay, here’s my situation with feeling betrayed and abandoned by God (well, the biggest situation; I’ve had several). So, growing up, I had zero interest in serving a mission. Not in my life plans, thank you very much, and sister missionaries seemed a little Molly-ish, maybe a little pathetic (forgive me, I was raised in a half-active home, being LDS was something one did once a week, to impress one’s visiting teachers. Being LDS in my home was for purely social reasons. The family sitting up front in sacrament meeting, so everyone can see us, see that We Are Here. Going to Mutual to put on An Appearance.). So, yadda yadda and one day I received this HUGE spiritual impression to serve a mission. Too huge to be a chemical imbalance. Too out-of-the-blue to be an unconscious desire. Too huge to be ignored. I knew I simply HAD to go. So, I wrapped my brain around the idea, got used to it, and actually began to look forward to it.
Went on my mission. Worst experience of my life. (In hindsight, it probably didn’t help that I was very likely clinically depressed before SSRI’s were invented, my mission president was spiritually abusive to me and the other missionaries, and other stuff went on that added to my misery.) During and after my mission, my testimony was, at best, in shreds. On my mission, I fluctuated between between being a bit of an atheist and believing in God, but believing he was just a giant f****er in the sky. So, I go home. I tried to find someone, anyone who would listen to me and my concerns. Nope. No one, not one person (except therapists) wanted their image of What Should Be to be popped. I was so alone. God had left me, no human wanted me. I felt betrayed, abandoned, alone. The weird thing was, no matter how much I doubted God’s existence, or the truthfulness of the church, I still KNEW the truthfulness of that initial spiritual impression to become a missionary. Strange, eh? So, in my brain, it was that God sent me out into the fire, knowing good and damn well I would get burnt. Yep, Giant f****er in the sky.
Fast forward many years. I have hung on to whatever shreds of a testimony I had, and even managed to make some of those shreds bloom (okay, I know I am mixing metaphors, but I am exhausted and can barely think straight). How did I get them to bloom–for me, continuing to pray (even when I doubted God’s existence, even when I was furious at him [cussing at God is better than any canned prayer I ever uttered], even when I plain didn’t feel like praying), continuing to devour the Ensign, and attending church whenever I could (there were times I just couldn’t take it, and I spent several years inactive, but I think God was okay with that, so long as I didn’t make it permanent).
So, one night I am praying, It is the same prayer I have uttered for about a decade and a half–*why* did you send me on a mission, knowing how badly it would screw me up? Begging, pleading for an answer. Not sleeping, because I was too invested in the prayer. Then it came. I got a mental image, of something like an object being shattered–it seems strong, but it is of clay, and shatters. But underneath the clay coating is a jewel–glowing, beautiful, strong. Stronger, more permanent than the clay exterior. To me, it was a metaphor for my testimony before and after my mission. I think God was telling me that I needed the crap from my mission to break off all the superficial-ness of what I thought was a testimony, to reveal the real testimony underneath. Because before my mission, remember, the gospel was a social thing, a way to look good (but, I never believed my own testimony was superficial and social–I thought I was different that my family-of-origin). After I received this spiritual impression, I was pretty sure my testimony was real. It certainly felt real. People who heard me bear my testimony sure commented on it. I thought it was real. But after this mental image thing, it seemed God was telling me that my testimony wasn’t as real and strong as I thought, and he wanted it to be something else.
So, now I realize that this is an extremely long post, and may not be at all relevant to what you (the original poster) wrote, but maybe it will help. Maybe if you hang on, let the shreds of your testimony bloom ( :^) ), maybe in a few years or so, you’ll get an answer that will fit you and your situation.
Good luck, and sorry again for the length.
Comment by janescott — December 14, 2007 @ 11:28 pm
janescott–my mission served a similar purpose. Though I had a genuine testimony before embarking on what would throw my health to the winds forevermore, and I came home sick feeling bereft of the loving God who had sent me, I also came out of the whole thing much more, um, authentic. For lack of a better word. It was THE experience, shattering though it was, that taught me the meaning of the world “grace.” Before my mission I viewed the gospel as largely performative: do this stuff, get this stuff back. God = vending maching; people who plug in quarters of faithfulness = righteous saints. Learning that God and His children aren’t an equation or a Coke machine helped me become a far stronger person. After (and I’m mixing metaphors as well, but it’s 2 a.m.) first shattering me to pieces.
It was hard. Not the hardest spiritual time of my life. I reread my journal and feel so terrible for that child, writing her self-loathing and assurance of failings in God’s eyes (why doesn’t he love me? Why? Why?) for endless pages. But it prepared me for the hardest other trials of my life, which have had spiritual components–infertility, for example, messes with your concept off eternal womanhood rather well. Anyhow, just so you know, you aren’t the only one with The Puzzling Missionary Experience. While the imagery troubles me, I’m often reminded of Donne’s “Batter My Heart, Three-Personed God.”
BATTER my heart, three person’d God; for, you
As yet but knocke, breathe, shine, and seeke to mend;
That I may rise, and stand, o’erthrow mee,’and bend
Your force, to breake, blowe, burn and make me new.
I, like an usurpt towne, to’another due,
Labour to’admit you, but Oh, to no end,
Reason your viceroy in mee, mee should defend,
But is captiv’d, and proves weake or untrue.
Yet dearely’I love you,’and would be loved faine,
But am betroth’d unto your enemie:
Divorce mee,’untie, or breake that knot againe;
Take mee to you, imprison mee, for I
Except you’enthrall mee, never shall be free,
Nor ever chast, except you ravish mee
Comment by Janet — December 15, 2007 @ 2:58 am
I so much thought of a “I said they would get better, not that they would live” moment when I read this story.
In that case it was a surgery that went very well, but that I knew was not the end of the story, and it wasn’t (that story ended with my doing unsuccessful CPR).
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — December 15, 2007 @ 10:17 am
Janet and janescott, those were well written posts.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — December 15, 2007 @ 4:01 pm
[…] have been provided an example of how the faithful deal with cognitive dissonance. The author of the post has hit on spiritual hard times after becoming accustomed to frequent […]
Pingback by Green Oasis » Dark Night of the Soul — December 15, 2007 @ 7:16 pm
I know I’m very late to this conversation, but I’ve had the flu for about two weeks (happens every time I have finals!) and I haven’t been able to pull myself out of bed, let alone get near a computer.
I think this post resonated with a lot of us because all of us have at times doubted our own spirituality or even equated spirituality (or spiritual receptiveness) with worthiness. We’ve all had times where it feels like the Lord has let go of the back of the bike and we’re pedalling on our own. Don’t forget we’re in training to become like him, so sometimes we have to do some things on our own.
Here’s my contribution to the vast store of anecdotes: when I was a senior in high school I started having seizures caused by brain damaged I’d suffered as a young child (I hadn’t had any symptoms in 14 years). In the years since (about nine), I’ve taken so many medications I can’t count them–meds that made me gain weight, meds that knocked me out all day, meds that zapped my personality, every side effect you can think of. The whole time I was getting priesthood blessings that kept assuring me I would get better. Finally I had the opportunity to have a brain surgery that could possibly remove the damaged area of my brain. Before the surgery my uncle gave me one of the most inspired blessings I’ve ever heard. Once again I was assured I would get better. And I’m still having seizures. Every year they are worse. I’m better able to cope, though. I’ve had four brain surgeries. When I had the first, I was so desperate I though that if it didn’t work I might as well die. I’ve figured out how to live with the epilepsy now. I think I am better–I am emotionally stronger and better prepared to live in a world that isn’t always accommodating. I also have been through spiritual deserts, times when it seemed I couldn’t feel the Spirit at all. At one of these times, I was having serious doubts and spoke to my counselor about them (he isn’t Mormon, but he is VERY knowledgeable about Mormonism). His advice was to start with the things I truly loved about Mormonism and keep my testimony of them and move on from there–learn and study about the other things until I can learn to accept them or even love them. The important thing is to keep on reading my scriptures, praying, going to church (when I’m well). Granted, there are things I don’t think I’ll understand in this life (why couldn’t black people have the priesthood? I don’t get it), but I figure I’ll ask God when I get to heaven.
So, I know I went off on a wee tangent there, but here’s one last thing I do when I am having a bit of trouble feeling the Spirit. When I was a little child, I used to imagine the Second Coming and Jesus would walk in to my house and come sit on our couch and I would go sit on his lap and he would hold me. Everything in the memory/daydream is very detailed/vivid, down to the dress I was wearing and the pattern on the couch. I’m sure everyone has something like this they can think of to bring them piece when they feel troubled. This is just my special thought.
I hope any of this has been useful. I’d like to know how things turn out for you.
Comment by AYW — December 17, 2007 @ 2:14 am
A couple of years ago as I was nearing the birth of my baby, I kept getting this feeling that something was going to go wrong around the time of her birth. When I tried to inquire further about it, the Spirit told me that it was going to be something extremely emotionally challenging that would last many months but eventually we would be so much better off for it.
Thankfully, it wasn’t anything to do with the health of my baby but when she was about 6 weeks old a devastating incident happened that turned my life topsy turvy. I believe the Spirit warned me because it was going to be such a huge trial in my life.
During the trial there were many times that I just cried my heart out to God. There are not words to express it really. I felt Him there but it wasn’t as close as I would have liked. In fact I got the impression that He was there but this was something that had to be done from a distance.
Eventually, a miraculous day of healing did come - about 2 years later. And I am so much stronger now than ever before. I have so much more understanding of the eternal implications of this life. I have learnt many gospel truths.
I agree that this is a trial for you. You have been blessed to have many wonderful spiritual experiences in the past. Now, what are you going to choose when you are left on your own?
Integrity, isn’t just doing what you know to be right, it is doing what you know to be right WHEN NO-ONE IS LOOKING. In a way, no-one is looking now (although of course He is but He is testing you), are you still going to be found on the Lord’s side?
Once upon a time you knew that God was un-changing and that He loved you. Why would that be different now?
These are the last days. Satan is making warfare with your mind. Don’t let him in. If you knew it to be true once, then surely it still is. Recognise it for what it is. The Lord is desperately wanting you to endure to the end.
Go and get your temple recommend renewed. Tell the Bishop of your trials and doubts. I suspect that he will still give you a recommend. You need the power of the temple in your life now more than ever.
Comment by Shanny — December 18, 2007 @ 9:33 pm
Though this is over a year old, I would like to offer…for future doubts on prayers, a talk by S Michael Wilcox called When my prayers seem unanswered.
Trust me, when i say he explains HEAVENLY FATHERS will, not ours, thats exactly what i mean and the fact is he has given this talk in laymans terms for all spiritual maturities to understand.
Sorry I cant give a link, but i know if you google for it you will find it easy enough.
Comment by Debs — March 15, 2009 @ 9:55 pm