106 Comments »

1. My mother-in-law (not a member) gave each of my kids $25 when they were baptized, and then she gave my son $25 when he turned 12 and got the priesthood. That bothers me to this day, that there wasn’t an event that was equal to that. (My daughters are older than my son; had it been the other way, I’m sure she would have thought of it and ponied up the money for the girls. But I wish she just wouldn’t have done anything.)

   That’s a good idea, though I’m not sure I’m organized enough to ever accomplish something like that!

   Comment by TAG — December 13, 2007 @ 3:38 pm

2. Isn’t there New Beginnings for young women? I remember the event of being welcomed to the young women’s program.

   Not to say that I agree with the differences between the programs for teenage boys and girls, but I do remember turning twelve being a pretty big deal and there was accompanying pomp and circumstance.

   Comment by Katie P. — December 13, 2007 @ 3:48 pm

3. New Beginnings. Yeah. My experience as YW and as a YW 1st counselor: New Beginnings is crap. One two hour session composed of dinner (typical ward dinner fare), followed by talks given by other YW, YW leaders, and possibly someone in the bishopric–talks are either boring/not applicable or weepy. A song somewhere in between. Then some object is given out, designed to help the YW remember the theme of the night (i.e., a bottle of spice to symbolize virtue garnishing your thoughts, etc.). Then everyone cleans up, and goes home.

   A really big difference between what is done for the boys compared to the girls. It is a good thing I have a pretty strong belief in the doctrine, or this part of the culture would make me want to leave the church, especially for my daughter’s sake.

   I suppose I could institute some type of organized big deal when she turns 12, but the message would be clear–”mom cares about you, but your church does not.” And, frankly, boys receive the priesthood. A God-given POWER. Girls, well, girls go to Mutual. Something anyone can do. Something you have to sometimes endure.

   Sorry I’m so negative. I can’t wait to find out how much more negative I’ll be in 9 years when she goes to New Beginnings.

   Comment by janescott — December 13, 2007 @ 4:02 pm

4. I didn’t realize that they make a big deal out of boys turning 12. I mean, I know they get ordained to the priesthood, and the bishop has them come up during sacrament meeting and announces it,(though they do that for the girls now too) but besides that, I haven’t seen any special treatment given to boys when they turn 12. I would have assumed any fuss was on more of a family level (like TAG’s MIL), not a church level. I was young, though, when my older brothers turned 12, and my family was not active when my little brother turned 12, so maybe I just missed it. What is it that they do for the boys?

   Comment by april — December 13, 2007 @ 4:15 pm

5. Interesting. I wasn’t thinking so much ‘pomp and circumstance’ as ceremonial. Something that signifies you’ve reached a sort of coming of age. There’s a ceremony–ordination–for the boys (as well as the admission to power which is, of course, not replicable) and it is an event that initiates the boy into starting to become one of the men. Even if we don’t provide a parallel to the priesthood–a related, but separate topic–we can provide a parallel to the ceremony and initiation to adulthood.

   New Beginnings was just another meeting for me, one I would attend out of duty and not mind too much, but one I could’ve skipped and not missed much.

   Comment by Artemis — December 13, 2007 @ 4:23 pm

6. You know, I haven’t quite worked out just what a 12-year-old-joining-the-ranks-of-womenfolk would look like. Perhaps the recitation of maternal genealogy, like the birthing blessingway, ending with the girl. Perhaps some counsel or symbolic gifts about what it means to be a Woman of God (not just a Mother, you know); perhaps something about the girl’s many talents and potentials in life (spiritual, intellectual, mission and influence for good, etc.)

   Comment by Artemis — December 13, 2007 @ 4:32 pm

7. maybe something like what happened in the red tent, minus the whole breaking-the-hymen-with-an-idol thing?

   i love the idea of rites of passage for both boys and girls. thanks for this post.

   Comment by chandelle — December 13, 2007 @ 4:42 pm

8. Haven’t read it, but I suppose so, as long as you steer entirely clear of menstruation.

   Comment by Artemis — December 13, 2007 @ 4:43 pm

9. New Beginnings wasn’t very ceremonial in my ward, though we did some cool stuff talking about values and goals. Nothing on par w/what the boy scouts got to do, though. When I started YW they gave me brownies, which were tasty. Not much of a real acknowledgment of passage into young womanhood, however.

   I understand the idea behind NOT equating boys getting priesthood w/girls menarche (seeing as how it sets up the biological priesthood/motherhood thing right at the get go) but I DO like the idea of ceremonial recognition of the event. I think celebrating it would remove the shame and sense of “bother” many girls experience. And since no boy is going to ever get a celebration of his first nocturnal emission, it would offer something boys don’t get. Snort snort. (Really, that last part is just sarcasm, but I do like the Menarche ritual idea)

   Comment by Janet — December 13, 2007 @ 5:12 pm

10. Can’t you use a description that doesn’t co-opt Navajo ceremony terminology? I find that disrespectful.

    Comment by MAC — December 13, 2007 @ 5:49 pm

11. it’s not co-opting the term. it is based on the native american (and many other cultures’) ceremony for mothers.

    Comment by chandelle — December 13, 2007 @ 6:03 pm

12. “…because of the church’s policy position of not involving the girls in anything that would, erm, compete with the boys’ programs,…”

    I am so incredibly tired of hearing this over and over. There is no such policy, there is no unwritten rule, there is no recommendation. I have read all the handbooks cover to cover.

    In every case, what people perceive to be the problem is just that … a perception. As one poster said - “New beginnings was crap…”. If that was the case, as a YW leader, maybe she could have made it not crap. People in the church need to stop blaming their own shortcomings on some mystical imaginary “policy”.

    Comment by Giveitup — December 13, 2007 @ 6:24 pm

13. maybe something like what happened in the red tent, minus the whole breaking-the-hymen-with-an-idol thing?

    New Beginnings, indeed.

    I’m not sure it’s possible to separate womanhood from the biological component. Maybe we need to embrace it.

    Thanks, Janet. Now I want brownies.

    Comment by madhousewife — December 13, 2007 @ 6:27 pm

14. You’re welcome, madhousewife

    Giveitup–sure, YW leaders should work to make New Beginning s meaningful. The problem I suppose is that the boys’ program is all set out, totally organized, and has support ’round the world outside the church as well as in. It’s a bit hard for a lay leader to compete with that sort of apparatus. It’s not the boys’ fault or even the church’s (unless of course we want to get mad about being involved in scouting entirely, but that’s another subject really). It’s certainly not the fault of individual, overworked YW leaders who already devote unbelievable quantities of time to a demanding calling. We just have to help each other make things more fulfilling for girls–together. I think Artemis is OFFERING what you’re complaining about. She’s not whining, she OFFERING a way to augment the present dearth of official stuff. The handbook, cover to cover, simply can’t give the breadth of stuff scouting does. So, we try to make things better. You appear to be the one complaining. Why not help out and suggest ways to make New Beginnings more meaningful?

    Comment by Janet — December 13, 2007 @ 6:42 pm

15. “…because of the church’s policy position of not involving the girls in anything that would, erm, compete with the boys’ programs,…”

    I was not complaining at all about what Artemis proposed. I was complaining about the constant:

    “The churches policy is to put boys before the girls” comment.

    That is completely untrue and does a ton of damage when people talk like that. I agree with what she proposed. I disagree with her stating falsehoods about church policy.

    Comment by Giveitup — December 13, 2007 @ 6:53 pm

16. “…because of the church’s policy position of not involving the girls in anything that would, erm, compete with the boys’ programs,…”

    “I am so incredibly tired of hearing this over and over. There is no such policy, there is no unwritten rule, there is no recommendation. I have read all the handbooks cover to cover. ”

    No, there is no rule in the offical handbooks. That doesn’t mean that we need to stay in our comfort zone. Its hard to un-crapify a program on your own. You need teamwork and consensus. What do you suggest Give It Up?

    Comment by KFJ — December 13, 2007 @ 6:56 pm

17. Giveitup–I was just editing my comment when you responded. Cyberspace crossing! I don’t think you can honestly say that the YW program is as developed as is scouting. Again, that’s not the church’s fault. It’s not like they developed scouting with the intent of it trumping the stuff they came up with for girls. But we’re a lay church, and we just don’t have quite the same time to develop a girl’s program. I’m serious about suggesting ways to make the stuff we DO have more meaningful, though. Instead of attacking others because they noticed that the boys got more attention and recognition when they were growing up (certainly true in my ward, and it was a great ward! I’m not at all bitter about it, but it’s still true) why don’t you note how people in your ward made things equal, if that’s how it really was?

    Sniping at each other doesn’t help anyone–it does “tons of damage.” What did your ward do to help make YW great?

    Someday I hope to be called into YW, but am honestly a little intimidated because it IS such a huge calling, and lacks quite as much organization and direction and external verification as the boys have. THe YW leaders are largely unsung heroes. They need all the help we can offer, yes?

    Comment by Janet — December 13, 2007 @ 6:57 pm

18. oh yes–the scouting leaders need all the help they can get, too. They may have more direction and external support, but whooboy, that’s a calling and a half…

    Comment by Janet — December 13, 2007 @ 6:58 pm

19. when i was a teen, our stake put on an elaborate Debutante Ball every other year, to celebrate all the girls who had turned 16 since the previous ball. They went ALL out…it was pretty fancy schmancy black-tie and ball gowns. Portraits taken of each girl and a display table featuring each of us and our hobbies and accomplishments. elegant refreshments throughout the dance, which was preceded by a nice dinner and presentation of the girls.

    Sadly, my debutante ball was the 2nd to last one ever held. Something about the cost and effort put into something of that nature being in conflict with the purpose of the church. I don’t know the details, but it was one of those things that the girls in our stake got to look forward to for years, and it was all about the girls. There was no equivalent for the boys. But the boys liked it too. We learned how to actually dance in preparation for it. It was a really special night, regardless of the fact that none of us were really “society girls”.

    Comment by Blue — December 13, 2007 @ 7:07 pm

20. You still do not seem to get what I was talking about.

    My entire comment was simply about the fact that Artemis seems to think that it is Church policy to hold back the YW.

    I admit things are quite often unbalanced between YM and YW in some wards. I admit that things can and should be more equitable.

    In most the wards I have been in, it is due primarily to the fact that it is easier to get Fathers involved in YM activities, than it is to get Mothers involved in YW activities. It is a painful truth, but that has been my experience. I believe it all starts with the parents. When Fathers don’t get involved, YMs is useless. When Mothers don’t care what their daughters are up to at YW, the entire program goes to pot.

    Comment by Igiveup — December 13, 2007 @ 7:11 pm

21. Kind of random, but yesterday I was thinking about how I am going to teach my daughter about sex. I am not talking about the birds and the bees kind-of talk, but rather, a talk about physical relationships and their implications, birth control, STD’s, abstinence, body image and self esteem issues, etc. Anyway, it is something I have thought about before, but yesterday, the idea came to me that I could do a weekend retreat to a cabin or something with my daughter(s) and use it as a time to bond with with them and have a good open climate to discuss those things or other women related issues. It could be an annual thing, or whenever appropriate such as for somebody’s 12th birthday, menarche or 16th birthday, expecting a baby, etc. I haven’t thought it out too much, but I think it would be a nice way to celebrate womanhood, pass on wisdom, support one another, and bond. So anyway, that is my idea for something special to do with our daughters to celebrate and acknowledge their journey into adulthood; and at age 12, they are eligible to join the party.

    Comment by april — December 13, 2007 @ 7:16 pm

22. Blue, I like that idea too, it is sad that it got canned. Maybe it would have luck if it got started again; it seems like many wards are making an effort to be more equal in the resources and activities for the girls and boys. I know that in our ward, we have fund raisers for the YM and YW to help defray the cost of some of the expensive programs, and they each get half of the proceeds, so I would think cost wouldn’t be as big of an issue anymore, at least in my wad.

    Comment by april — December 13, 2007 @ 7:25 pm

23. Igiveup–no, I see what you were saying. I’m not sure you see what Artemis is saying. I’m not her so can’t say for certain, but I don’t think she was implying an intent to stunt or deprive girls. That would be “policy to hold back the YW.” I believe she was noting that the current policies lack much in the way of actually encouraging the girls to feel as valued as boys, because the policies are so different in depth and effort. The difference may be subtle, but it’s important in its embrace of intent.

    Your observation regarding parents is an interesting one. I wonder if it results in part from the moms feeling exhausted because they spend so much time parenting already, and the fathers see YM as an inroad into their kids’ lives they may lack. Or because mothers look back on their own YW experiences as somewhat useless (I don’t, but plenty do–I had great leaders and was very lucky). Or maybe the activities of scouting hold fathers’ interest–building fires and stuff is cool no matter how old you are–whereas the mothers find YW activities lame (but possibly the girls like them). Hard to say.

    But the fathers should care about what their daughters do at YW just as the moms should care about scouting. (Actually, if memory serves, the primary is in charge of the youngest scouts, so moms are often den mothers and all that). My father cared deeply about his girls and what we learned in YW. And when I wanted to take all the girls on a backpacking expedition as a Laural project (clearly I was slightly insane) he chaperoned.

    Comment by Janet — December 13, 2007 @ 7:28 pm

24. If I held a blessingway and invited all the important women in my life (mom, grandma, sisters, in-laws, etc) it would cause a HUGE UPROAR and my family would think I was apostate. Bad enough that I have this blog linked on the sidebar of my own family blog! If the women even came, they would not take it seriously and would instead want to have a discussion about ‘why I hate the priesthood’.

    Yes, I know that Artemis doesn’t see this as a threat to the priesthood, or the existing power structure. Neither do I. But to all my family members, this is exactly how it would seem.

    Comment by Sophrosene — December 13, 2007 @ 7:39 pm

25. 

    Comment by Sophrosene — December 13, 2007 @ 7:40 pm

26. While I like the idea of a blessingway as a ritual to celebrate a girl’s coming-of-age, I think a family tradition is only going to take us so far. We really need something that is institutionalized — no — culturalized, for the same reasons that janescott said above. We need a ritual that our daughters will not have to apologize for, explain, or defend.

    Obviously if everyone started holding blessingways, this ritual would eventually amass that kind of culturalized status. If.

    Comment by Sophrosene — December 13, 2007 @ 7:54 pm

27. GiveItUp:

    “…because of the church’s policy position of not involving the girls in anything that would, erm, compete with the boys’ programs,…”

    Let’s call a horse a horse — the priesthood is just such a program.

    I suppose you could argue with me about the definition of “program”. I agree that the better word would be “organization”.

    So how about this instead:

    “…because of the church’s policy position of not involving the girls in anything that would, erm, compete with the boys’ organizations,…”

    I don’t think anyone can refute that.

    Comment by Sophrosene — December 13, 2007 @ 8:10 pm

28. Giveitup,

    …because of the church’s policy position of not involving the girls in anything that would, erm, compete with the boys’ programs…

    I used these words because our Stake Primary President used those very words when I, newly called to our ward’s primary presidency, was inquiring about options for making sure the girls got as much focus and activity time as the boys did in scouts and at scout camps, etc. It was during the same training meeting that I learned that the boys in the Primary had a separate scouting budget above and beyond the Primary budget that they had proportional share of already. And this particular stake leader administrates and trains strictly by the book/GHI. I can’t say for certain, but I got the clear message that this position was clearly taught to her at the stake level and above. So I would have to argue that there IS a policy that girls’ activities, organizations, etc. not be organized so as to imply “competition” (her word) with those for the boys. Perhaps it’s not in the GHI (I can check my Primary manuals, but beyond that I wouldn’t know), but it’s clear to me that it’s being taught institutionally and may even be “in writing” via memos to Stake Presidents, etc.

    As for the menarche celebrations, I don’t dispute that there can be value there too, but there’s already so much emphasis on our motherliness that I was thinking this sort of blessingway would focus less on biological things and more on spiritual things, modeling to whatever appropriate degree the experience of priesthood ordination. You wouldn’t mention wet dreams at such a time, so why would you mention monthly bleeding? But that, of course, is my own take on it–do whatever you think would be most beneficial to and appreciated by the girls.

    Janet and Sophrosene, you both make some good points. Thanks.

    Comment by Artemis — December 13, 2007 @ 8:26 pm

29. Menarche is tricky. I like the idea of celebrating it, simply because there are so many messages sent to us that it is dirty, unclean, unpleasant, etc. I like the idea of turning it into something positive and affirming. But on the other hand - some girls have theirs earlier, some have theirs later, and some never really have them at all; so is it fair to form a celebration around menarche?

    Comment by Quimby — December 13, 2007 @ 8:35 pm

30. One of my husband’s professors at medical school likes to tell the story of how his adolescent son burst into his room one morning, saying, “Dad, Dad! I had my first wet dream!”

    This prof was very proud of himself for having cultivated in his son the sense that wet dreams were a natural step in the progression from boyhood to manhood.

    Comment by Sophrosene — December 13, 2007 @ 9:11 pm

31. April—your retreat idea sounds fabulous. My mom did something similar for me. My sisters and I were told that when we got our periods we would celebrate “Woman’s Day.” On Woman’s Day, we would go out and have lunch/shop/do whatever to celebrate female bonding and the rite of passage that is getting a period.
    As for the YW…yes, it does need work as a program, but damn if I don’t know what to do for it. My mom was YW president in her ward a couple years back. She dove right in and really went the extra mile, but even with all her hard work there’s still so much more to be done. I really don’t have any useful suggestions, but I’ll keep reading in the hopes that someone else does. I have not been called to YWs yet. I’d like to, but like other posters have said, the thought of being called kinda scares me.

    Comment by Phoenix — December 13, 2007 @ 9:46 pm

32. In my ward, the young women have a tradition of going into Primary and kidnapping the new young woman and dragging her off.

    Lots of fun, and saves her the worry of figuring out where to go.

    Comment by Naismith — December 13, 2007 @ 10:07 pm

33. In my ward (and the bishop is a by-the-handbook-kinda-guy) the Personal Progress medallions are handed out in sacrament meeting, and the young woman is asked to share something she learned.

    Since eagle scouts are awarded under the auspices of scouting, they are done at a separate court of honor.

    I think the sacrament meeting thing has a bigger audience, so I can’t think favorite treatment always goes to the males.

    Comment by Naismith — December 13, 2007 @ 10:11 pm

34. I have always worked in the scouting program, from cub scouts through the eagle projects. I still serve in a scout calling, even though I don’t have any more scouts at home. I love the BSA program in the church, and the way it works with priesthood training. It’s not perfect, but they provide a great way for boys to grow and mature on many different levels. The only problem I have ever had with scouting is that they don’t have something of equal benefit for girls.

    I have never worked in YW, except to assist with combined activities, and it’s probably a good thing. When I was a teenager YW was worse than it is now, and it was poorly administrated in my ward. I have always been a bit skeptical of what YW is up to. They didn’t have the YW theme then, which I quite like now. But a good theme does not an effective program make. I have kind of given up hope of seeing the YW ever offer the girls something that is the equivalent of scouts/priesthood. There is just too much history invested in both of those. When we would have Eagle Courts of Honor, we would call all the eagle scouts from the audience to sit in the “Eagles Nest” and sometimes the boys would have many of their visiting (male) family members come up to sit there. Old guys too. And no one’s gonna argue that it’s not really important to teach these boys how to do preisthood service. It’s a huge request to provide something equal to that for girls.

    Usually, New Beginnings was an enjoyable thing for our girls and us, depending on how competent the leadership was in planning it. They were fun and loving and celebrated the girls, but there wasn’t a whole lot of that same power and spirit which attends the boys’ events.

    I’m not sure why I can take notice of this and not have it bother me a whole lot. Perhaps it’s because, in my experience at least, women’s power manifests in a different way than men’s does. Or mybe I’m just tired. I can’t articulate it very well, and I apologize for that. It’s Christmastime, after all, and most women are profoundly busy right now. I shouldn’t even be here reading/typing this with the size of my to-do list.

    I think this is an important topic and would welcome something for girls to match what there is for boys. But for it to have any power in the church, it would have to come from God. Through the general authorities.

    Comment by Mommie Dearest — December 13, 2007 @ 10:18 pm

35. I love the Blessingway and the retreat ideas. I think a mother or a family can do many things to make turning 12 a special time. But the real challenge is to do it within the Church.

    We have seen on this thread that there is at least a program in place which has the potential to do this–the New Beginnings night. This to me seems the best possibility of giving the girls an equivalent to the special recognition boys get in the Church when they turn 12. Let’s brainstorm some ideas of how this program could live up to its potential and become more than just another boring night of church food!

    Has anyone seen any fantastic New Beginnings programs? How about short videos of each 12 year old girl, made from pictures of their childhood, and set to their favorite song? How about invitations to grandmothers, aunts, cousins, and female relatives from all over the country? Often grandparents will make a special effort to fly out for a boy’s ordination. Perhaps they could be convinced to come for a special New Beginnings. If this became a tradition around the world, it would be awesome! Maybe short words of encouragement (almost blessing-like) from mothers or other strong females in the girl’s life could be read to her as she sat in a chair in the front of the room and the women stood around her in a circle! Is that going too far? I’m brainstorming here! Help me out!

    Comment by BiV — December 13, 2007 @ 10:59 pm

36. New Beginnings certainly does have potential, but one of its main flaws is that it is not individualized. The boys ordination and advancement is specifically for them. You are usually not going to have it be a mass event. New Beginnings is for all the girls who have turned 12. Even if they are individually recognized, they still have to share the event. I suppose that there can be some positive things regarding sisterhood or whatnot associated with that. But it is still nice to sometimes have an event that is about YOU, and YOUR advancement, not you and Suzy and Jenny and whoever else happens to be the same age as you. It’s hard for something to be quite as special if it’s a mass event.

    Comment by Gwen — December 13, 2007 @ 11:42 pm

37. A few thoughts…

    Remember that scouting is not church-wide — it’s only in the US and Canada. I tend to think there is a reason for keeping it that goes beyond our Church. I think we should trust our leaders on this one.

    As to rituals and the like, on one hand, I find the idea of some sort of rite of passage for girls intriguing, if the goal is truly to celebrate womanhood. But then I get the sense that this isn’t the primary goal in some people’s minds; rather, the goal is somehow to ‘prove’ to the girls (or to ourselves?) that they are just as important by some external something. If this is indeed the motivation, this concerns me greatly. I am not downplaying the power of ritual; however, I think we need to teach our boys and our girls from the time they can first understand words and gospel concepts and the fact that boys and girls are different that, indeed, boys and girls are different. God has given us different bodies, and different programs, and different roles and responsibilities in the family and in the Church. Rather than apologize for this, I wish we could embrace it, and help them learn to trust in God’s love for ALL of His children, rather than go looking for proof of it in what they (we) do or don’t do in the Church or in life.

    Suppose we did try to somehow do something so that girls didn’t feel like they were “missing out” (or whatever the goal might be). And then they grow up and realize then that they aren’t doing the same things as men, and at that point, you can’t change that. You can’t cover it up with rituals or anything you can make up. At some point, our young women have to come to grips with this reality, and we need to help them do that with faith! They and we need to realize our divine worth is not tied up with what we do or don’t do, and especially not what we do or don’t do in comparison to the boys/men.

    Womanhood doesn’t need to compete with manhood. We don’t need the same checklist of things along the way as children youth or adults. We need to trust — and teach our girls and boys to trust — that God really does love us all equally, and that even if we don’t understand all the whys, that the order of things has its purpose. “I know God loveth his children; nevertheless I do not know the meaning of all things.”

    So, yes, celebrate womanhood, but celebrate it not as a competition, but as its own wonderful gift that is treasured by God and the Church in its own right. I don’t mean to downplay the sincere struggle these issues bring, but I just ache for women to really understand and feel their worth without having to wait for something ‘out there’ to change. I can’t imagine anything being more helpless, and I don’t believe we are meant to feel helpless, nor have to wait for something to happen to recognize and really know of our worth!

    Comment by m&m — December 13, 2007 @ 11:43 pm

38. chandelle, #11

    it’s not co-opting the term. it is based on the native american (and many other cultures’) ceremony for mothers.

    First of all, the blessing way isn’t a global Native American term, it is a specifically a Navajo term. Nor is it specific to women. “Young men leaving for the armed forces will have a Blessingway [Hózhóojí] given for them by their families before they leave.”
    
    It is inaccurate refer to the Navajo Blessing way as a coming of age ceremony, the customs surrounding the menarche are called kinaalda, also here. (an interesting aside, the Navajo girl profiled in the kinaalda book is an active member of the Church).

    But that is neither here nor there. If you want to have some sort of celebration that’s fine but calling a living Navajo ceremony a “native american blessing way” is disrespectful in the same way that calling a Las Vegas wedding a “sealing, for time and all eternity” would be.

    Comment by MAC — December 13, 2007 @ 11:45 pm

39. As far as the girl’s program not being equal to the scouting program it seems to me that the YW’s program has mainly a spiritual emphasis with some fun while the Scouting program integrates spiritual with adventure, outdoors experience, and fun in a more supported way. The YW’s can do adventure activities also but usually the YW leaders are not willing or free to go off on adventure activities. Who would take care of the kids or cook dinner after all? The YW leaders and Activity Day leaders have to come up with all their own ideas for activities from scratch while Scouting has lots more guidence and support; you can just start working on the next badge. (My son’s aren’t in scouting yet so I’m actually not quite sure what they do.)

    To get their fun and adventure both my girls are in Girl Scout troops and they love it. They earn badges, have badge ceremonies, go camping, snowshoeing, do community service, and let’s not forget the cookies! They both go to Girl Scout camp every summer and ride horses, canoe, rock climb, throw pottery, develop pictures in a darkroom, hike and have a great time. I didn’t have to worry about my 12 year old being homesick at YW camp since she has gone to Girl Scout camp every year since she was in 2nd grade. (I was a nervous wreck that first year she went, but she had a great time) For her first YW’s camp this last summer they camped in the back yard of a members cabin and watched movies and did each others nails. She thought that was fun too!

    It would be nice if the YW’s program had the support and organization that YM’s does, but I don’t see that happening any time soon. But just because the church might not provide everything for our daughters that we might like it to doesn’t mean we can’t come up with our own solutions just like Artemis is suggesting.

    Comment by RJR — December 13, 2007 @ 11:51 pm

40. chandelle, #11

    it’s not co-opting the term. it is based on the native american (and many other cultures’) ceremony for mothers.

    First of all, the isn’t a global Native American term, it is a specifically a Navajo term. Nor is it specific to women. “Young men leaving for the armed forces will have a Blessingway [Hózhóojí] given for them by their families before they leave.”

    It is inaccurate also refer to the Navajo Blessing way as a female coming of age ceremony, the customs surrounding the menarche are called kinaalda. (an interesting aside, the Navajo girl profiled in the kinaalda book is an active member of the Church).
    But that is neither here nor there. If you want to have some sort of celebration that’s fine but calling a living Navajo ceremony a “native american blessing way” is disrespectful in the same way that calling a Las Vegas wedding a “sealing, for time and all eternity” would be.

    http://discovernavajo.com/component/option,com_content/task,view/id,121/Itemid,1/“>blessing way
    http://www.hanksville.org/voyage/navajo/BlessingWay.php3
    http://www.vibrani.com/Kinaalda.htm
    http://www.amazon.com/Kinaalda-Navajo-Grows-Native-Americans/dp/0822596415/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197609530&sr=8-1“>here

    Comment by MAC — December 13, 2007 @ 11:56 pm

41. This is very instructive, ladies. I write a comment saying, “here is a way for us to make a difference within the Church in favor of our young women.” This is immediately followed by 3 comments representative of patterns of thought I’ve seen only too often:
    1. There are too many flaws in the existing structure. We can never make a difference.
    2. We should be happy with the way things are.
    3. We have to go outside the Church for solutions to our problems.

    Is there a creative way we can make progress within the existing Church structure? Are you willing to be a part of it?

    Comment by BiV — December 14, 2007 @ 12:27 am

42. BiV, just so you know I wrote mine before seeing yours, so it wasn’t in response to what you had said. FWIW. Not that I think that changes your response, but anyway….

    I would be interested to know what you think progress would look like.

    Comment by m&m — December 14, 2007 @ 12:30 am

43. All I know is that my two brothers got tons of money and tons of attention when they got their Eagle Scouts.

    My whole life I wished I could be in a program like Scouts. Lots of camping, adventure, camping out in zero degree weather… it all sounded cool to me. I never got to go on week long rafting trips on the Colorado. Minus the whole paramilitary/Hitler youth overtones…

    I always wished there was something comparable I could be a part of. New Beginnings was really schmaltzy in my ward and I always felt it was a Beginners Homemaking or something. Crafty and kitchy. Not my thing.

    Anyways, just adding my two cents. There definitely is way more emphasis put on the boys’ programs, not on purpose I’m sure, but just the whole institutionalized sexism thing I’m sure has something to do with it. Yeah, might be onto something there.

    Comment by lemon drop — December 14, 2007 @ 12:37 am

44. I’ve seen copies of three ward budgets this month (in two different stakes) and heard descriptions of two others — and in all five cases, there was more funding given per capita to the YW program than the YM program.

    I know, I know, it’s not the same. I’ve been a vocal complainer about how the primary girls get shafted compared to the Cub Scouts. But think of this — the Church has done almost nothing to create a YM program. They basically have co-opted the Scouting program and made a couple of modifications. The Church has bent over backwards to create a YW program.

    I think Naismith brings up a good point, and something I’ve seen in wards dating back a long time — YW medallions are handed out in sacrament meeting with quite a bit of attention. Whereas, Eagle Scout courts of honor are pretty sparsely attended. I have also seen a tendency to having YW come forward when they are advanced from one class to another.

    There’s no Church “policy” that minimizes the YW. It’s a local implementation. YMMV. (How I wish we’d all share our home states so that we can profiling where the more advanced stakes are.)

    I think I can make the case that bishops I know who have had a lot of daughters have been pretty sensitive to making the YW more prominent. As far as fathers in YW goes, there are lots of fathers who are involved in the YW.

    Comment by queuno — December 14, 2007 @ 12:39 am

45. Some ideas from my girlhood:

    As for my first New Beginnings, each of the new Beehives was spotlighted by a Laurel–baby pictures, favorites, letters from Mom, thoughts of “inspiration” from the older girl, etc. We were each given a poster board covered in all the info about us–the facts written with sharpies, candy bars taped on, the pictures attached. And then that Laurel was hypothetically supposed to look out for us during our first year (I say hypothetically because my older sisters were both still in YW, and they looked out for me pretty well). And the YW presidency gave us each a lovely figurine of a praying girl. All-in-all, I took home a lot of loot that night, and felt I was pretty amazing.

    Our stake held a YW medallion night yearly. We got our pictures professionally taken, slide shows about our growing-up made, our Laurel advisers read little tributes to us, and we each had a chance to make a few remarks. This was done in the chapel of the stake center, and everyone in the stake was invited to attend–additionally, lovely invitations were given to the starring girls to send to extended family. After, during the refreshments stage of the evening, everyone was able to browse past tables set up with our photos and examples and explanations of our Laurel projects. (I don’t know if they still do it, but it certainly seemed to rank right up there with the Eagle Courts I’ve attended.)

    As an adult, when I was in the YW in my last ward (been in Primary ever since), we did something similar for the graduating Laurels on a ward level.

    (Added info: Childhood experiences were in Las Vegas during the early-mid 90s, adult experience in Orem, Utah, just a few years ago)

    Comment by Keryn — December 14, 2007 @ 1:27 am

46. I think one of our problems is that New Beginnings isn’t really analogous to an ordination ceremony - scouting or priesthood. One aspect of it is to welcome the new beehives in, but that is not the sole focus of the night. It is also to introduce the new mutual theme/personal progress goals for the year and rally the parents support behind the personal progress program. You have every YW there, and their parents, and you have to make it fun and enlightening, reach everyone in your audience, and accomplish all your goals. New Beginnings is tough!

    Plus, it varies so widely year to year and ward to ward. In my last ward we had one beehive come in during one year, and the next year we had eight. Both ways present their challenges, but on an institutional level it is very difficult to create such specific traditions when things change so greatly. Do you do an entire night all about one girl? Do you force all eight to lump together?

    I think for more recognition to be paid, there would really need to be familial support. As a YW leader, it’s all we can do to make sure there’s a lesson every Sunday and an Activity every week, and the other stuff we squeeze in where we can. Not to mention that New Beginnings is supposed to happen in January after we just did YW in Excellence in December. So much to do, I don’t think I can think about this anymore while I still have Christmas to worry over.

    Comment by reese — December 14, 2007 @ 3:32 am

47. This may only tangentially relate, but I remember very well attending a sharing time about five years ago where the presentation was on the priesthood. “You boys,” said the woman leading the sharing time, with tears in her eyes, “get to have the priesthood.” Then she paused, took a breath. “And you girls get to marry the priesthood.”

    Therein was a huge chasm. Boys move into preparation for adult responsibilities having nothing to do with marriage, as immediately seen in passing the sacrament, collecting fast offerings, etc.

    Girls move into marriage training.

    At least in this woman’s description.

    Comment by Cherylem — December 14, 2007 @ 6:39 am

48. Reese, I am also a YW leader looking for ongoing and in-depth discussion of ways to be helpful, nurturing, smart and positive in that calling. this discussion was great, Artemis, thanks for getting it going. Anyone know a place on the web where the talk continues week to week? Would want & visit one if there were one? Just thinkin’ out loud here.

    Comment by tona — December 14, 2007 @ 7:36 am

49. I think New Beginnings does count as a fuss about turning twelve. I got a new dress, my mother did a little presentation on what I was like so people would know me, there was a dinner at the ward, and I got pulled up to be introduced by the bishop. The fact that I even remember it means it was a really big deal to me, and I think it worked out fine.

    I don’t mean to say that things between the YW and the YM are comparable - there’s no question the boys got to do much more fun and I loathed 90% of the my time in Young Women’s. However, the initiation into it is part of the positive 10%.

    For the ceremony…

    You can do baptisms for the dead when you turn twelve and not before. I felt like I was in a distinctly different phase of membership because I could go to the temple. Not only could I, but I should and was responsible to. The baptistry in the temple in the temple was lovely and I felt so incredibly beautiful in my baptismal clothes. Doing baptisms for the dead made me feel like a part of the Kingdom of God in both this life and the next.

    Doesn’t that count as a ceremony marking a new stage of development?

    Comment by Katie P. — December 14, 2007 @ 8:57 am

50. “But think of this — the Church has done almost nothing to create a YM program. They basically have co-opted the Scouting program and made a couple of modifications. The Church has bent over backwards to create a YW program.”

    I agree with queuno. This is a problem that I wouldn’t be surprised to see corrected. My concern has been that scouting tends to reinforce the stereotype of active boys vs. more passive, spiritual girls. That’s just my impression.

    As is true with most organizations, so much of YW depends on the leaders. If you have a ward where the leaders spend their energy doing modesty drills, preparing singing presentations for sacrament meeting, and gluing together crafts, it’s likely less fulfilling for all involved. Not that any of these activities is necessarily unimportant…I have been lucky to work in presidencies with pretty dynamic women, from international business owners to O.R. nurses. We have all struggled to incorporate more meaningful activities. It’s disheartening to put effort into an activity and watch the girls watch wistfully as the boys goof off playing ball in the gym.

    FWIW, I didn’t feel ripped off when my brothers were ordained or passed the sacrament or rec’d their Eagles. I mostly felt slighted with the scouting activities and camps, which were extravagant (to my teenage eyes), well-organized, and well-attended.

    Comment by Lupita — December 14, 2007 @ 10:05 am

51. i don’t know anything about the new beginnings thing ya’ll are talking about, but it sounds like a celebration of a girl turning 12, whereas the young men have a celebration of their achievements and activities in scouts. is that incorrect? if not, that does sound an awful lot like a consolation prize to the young women - the boys are celebrated for things they’ve actually done, while girls are celebrated for - what? having a birthday?

    why hasn’t the church adopted girl scouts as a parallel program for the girls?

    Comment by chandelle — December 14, 2007 @ 10:58 am

52. As usual, too busy/crazy for total response:

    1. I LOVE the ideas here–and BIV, I especially love the ideas of getting the female members of an extended family to visit/support the YW the way male role models often do boys. I love April’s retreat idea as well…actually, all the ideas people have shared. (April, I still owe you an email–I haven’t forgotten. Life has just been nutty.)

    2. My home ward did something I don’t think anyone has mentioned (forgive me if you have–quick skimming): in addition to a plaque listing all the Court of Honor Eagle recipients, they have one listing the names of the girls who’ve received their medallions. If anything, the girls’ is swankier–all velvet and engraved brass. ANd like someone else mentioned, they present the medallion in Sacrament meeting complete with some remarks from leaders. it’s been toned down a little, at the same time they toned down missionary farewells, to avoid the impression that our official worship hour is about personal accomplishment. But I think the girls still come up and receive official commendation from the bishop and remarks from a leader and/or mom.

    4. My very last New Beginnings involved each young woman setting up a table meant to represent how she integrated the different YW values, so most of us tried to find ways to mesh spiritual and secular goals in a decent tableau. Then we talked about what we’d done. I liked that. We had to think about how scripture study and math might be related. We had to think about how all the motherhood rhetoric might be connected to extracurricular stuff like track or debate. It wasn’t perfect, but it did integrate the goal areas a little better, and a bit more like scouting does. Furthermore, we invited whoever we dang well pleased, and some of my male friends (and non members!) showed up. That was cool.

    5. M&M–good point about scouting. I’d forgotten it was only here and in Canada. Rumors persist that we’ll ditch it and run our own version, but those rumors have been going on forever. I wonder if it will ever happen…. I have seen an unfortunate development in girl’s camp in some areas, where it’s turned into a 4 day testimony meeting in a resort-like setting complete with swimming pools and such. I always felt like the one thing we had that was on par w/scouts was a week of being expected to start our own fires, cook our own meals, chop wood, and see how it all connected to God and wilderness. I hate the idea of girls’ camp becoming a spa. (slight rant, sorry. I like spas, but girls’ camp should involve camping and learning the skills in the camp manual!)

    6. Katie P. — I felt the same about getting to attend the temple, but that’s geographically bound as well. The brunt of the church’s youth don’t have access to a temple, or at least not more than once every few years.

    7. Queno, you make a good point about the church having made a real effort w/the YW’s program. It isn’t as involved as scouting exactly because scouting already existed for the co-opting. Most of us recognize the effort that goes into YW, but it still lacks the cultural weight of scouting. Maybe in part because it only exists within the church? I don’t know. It’s an interesting question. But as I said before, our lay organizations don’t have the same resources at hand for YW as the boys do. When I was in the stake primary we could call the local scouting gurus for help and be flooded w/input and assistance from non-members on the local council. YW leaders are on their own. It’s a demanding calling.

    8. Artemis, I’m depressed that your leader said that stuff. Yargh!!! When I was in Stake primary and they changed the girls’ program (the name of which I’m spacing on at the moment) the whole presidency brainstormed for hours and held a special stake-wide 3-hour pedagogical meeting on how to make the new program meaningful for the girls, both so they wouldn’t feel surpassed by the cub scouts and simply because they deserved the time, attention, and transition during the nasty period of pre-puberty. I’d like to think our presidency wasn’t aberrant.

    Comment by Janet — December 14, 2007 @ 10:59 am

53. When my son turned 12, he received his ordination. My parents came to town to be there and it was a special day. Receiving the priesthood IS special and the fact that there is no correlation for young girls is a whole other discussion.

    But since his ordination day and that one event, there has not been much else for him as a boy. He went into Deacons very uneventfully. No leader welcomed him. No leader explained anything special to him. The first time he passed the sacrament, some of the other boys just said, “Go here.” That was it. I remember thinking it was very unsignificant from a organizational standpoint.

    Those of you who have made comments about fathers being SO involved in the YM program–that’s wonderful. But that’s not what I see here. The YM program is a lot less organized, and if there’s a well-thought out activity for them, it’s unusual. It’s the moms (in my neck of the woods) that push the boys to complete scouting/Duty to God requirements and without the moms, I don’t think any boy I know would make it to Eagle Scout.

    Now, compare that to the experiences I’ve seen here with YW. When a girl turned 12, she was kidnapped. Her room was “decorated” (which ususally means toilet papered), she was given treats. She was visited by her new YW leaders. She was introduced the first time she came to YW. I thought the New Beginnings program was very nice here. (The YM don’t have anything like that.) Similar things were done as have already been mentioned, but one thing really stuck in my head. The parents were asked to write a letter to their daughter. (Usually it was the mother that wrote it.) Some of the letters were the most beautiful tributes I have heard. One mother in particular wrote a letter to her daughter telling her what she (the mother) had felt about this child since the moment she was born, what potential she saw and the amazing things she would be able to accomplish. I will never forget the love and feeling of confidence in her daughter that that mother expressed. That is something that stays with you for a long time. When a New Beginnings program is like that, even when it’s honoring several girls at once, that makes 12-yr-old girls feel very special and of great worth.

    Having said all that, I do see a bigger discrepancy between boys and girls between ages 8 and 12 than following that. Where I live, lots of focus is placed on those 8-yr-old boys becoming cub scouts where the “Activity Day” program seems to be a faint copy of what the boys do.

    Comment by ErinG — December 14, 2007 @ 11:00 am

54. MAC–I see your point. There’s a long history of liberal white America enacting a sort of well-intentioned cultural imperialism towards ethnic groups we see as spiritually/culturally niftier than ours. I personally sigh every time I see kitchy dream-catchers for sale (you know, decorated with a soccer theme or something). And once a white professor proudly showed me his sand painting. I said, “wait, how can it be authentic? Aren’t they supposed to be destroyed after being made? Isn’t that part of what makes them sacred?” Answer, “Yes, but she sold it to me anyhow.” Sigh. Ward Churchill (despite scholastic scandal of late) has written some good stuff on this practice. I imagine Mormons would be outraged if another group said, “ooh, Mormon garments are cool! I think we’ll make something similar and market it as “Mormon sacred underwear.” (I don’t think they’d have much response, though, except maybe during the winter.)

    Nonetheless, this thread isn’t really about that. We could come up w/a different name. For now could we perhaps focus on the stuff underneath the name, the practice? A Blessingway’s subtext is fantabulous. Do you think we can enact such a practice without enacting imperialism? I do. So let’s come up w/how.

    Comment by Janet — December 14, 2007 @ 11:02 am

55. MAC, i’m sorry if you’re offended by the use of the term blessingway, but i think you’re really going out of your way to be so. nobody means offense. in fact, if you read the books about blessingways, the authors say that they wanted to honor the ancient and universal ritual of honoring mothers instead of engaging in the western commercialized baby shower, in which the mother-to-be is eclipsed by the importance of the existence of the baby and the fact that a mother is being born as well as a baby goes completely without notice or rite. the women who wrote those books were inspired by learning of the (as you say) navajo blessingway and desired to create something similar for all women, not just the native americans who are lucky enough to exist in such a culture that actually reveres mothers instead of smothering them with baby gear. i really think it’s not the terminology here that matters but rather the intention and the activity. i had a blessingway for a friend a few months ago. we all brought the mother flowers and we knelt and washed her feet. we all shared the truest knowledge we had about childbirth and mothering. when the mother went into labor, we all lit a candle for her in our homes to signify the connection between all mothers when another mother is born. it was a beautiful and significant ritual, vastly more intimate and important than the consumption-fest of a baby shower, and the terminology was really not what was important about what we did. we honored that woman and i think that is what any ritual, native american or not, is all about. you can pick it apart if you like, and take righteous offense, or you can be grateful that somebody, somewhere, is trying to keep rites of passage alive in a western culture that has largely forgotten them.

    Comment by chandelle — December 14, 2007 @ 11:10 am

56. the fact that a mother is being born as well as a baby goes completely without notice or rite.

    Chandelle, I LOVE this idea. LOVE LOVE LOVE. (I think it works for an adoptive mama, too )

    I’ll be frank: I liked having a shower, too. I needed some stuff and we are a little short on funds. There’s a practical aspect to that American ritual which I appreciate–especially when the moms are even younger and poorer than we are. But the spiritual practices you did with and for your friend are simple and beautiful. If I’m ever pregnant, I hope someone does these things for me.

    Comment by Janet — December 14, 2007 @ 11:24 am

57. BTW, are you coming to lunch? I can’t reach Artemis and am unsure if it’s still on. Baby napping; if it’s off, I’ll just let him stay asleep. (Like that will happen, LOL)

    Comment by Janet — December 14, 2007 @ 11:24 am

58. ErinG:

    The parents were asked to write a letter to their daughter. (Usually it was the mother that wrote it.) Some of the letters were the most beautiful tributes I have heard. One mother in particular wrote a letter to her daughter telling her what she (the mother) had felt about this child since the moment she was born, what potential she saw and the amazing things she would be able to accomplish.

    FANTASTIC idea! Especially since such a rift usually grows between mothers and girls in the years just following twelve. Having a letter like that could remain as proof of a bond both mom and kiddo might doubt on crappy days later on. Your little girl is going to be incredibly lucky to have you write her such a letter.

    Comment by Janet — December 14, 2007 @ 11:27 am

59. oh yes, i completely forgot about lunch. willow is terribly sick. she has an eye infection, a yeast infection, diarrhea, and a bad cough. i also have laryngitis and a bad cough, and isaiah is mostly over being sick but still has a runny nose. so…ah…probably not lunch today, no. but soon!

    Comment by chandelle — December 14, 2007 @ 11:28 am

60. Oh Chandelle, I’m so sorry. Poor Willow! (That’s my favorite name for a girl, but seeing as how DH’s last name is “Willis” I don’t think we’re ever going to get to use it, sigh sigh).

    I hope you and little Willow feel better soon, and that Isaiah doesn’t reinfect himself. I hate being sick. Yesterday involved much sickness (IC flare up from hellhellhell). It’s such a drag–literally, you walk around the house dragging. Get well soon!

    Comment by Janet — December 14, 2007 @ 11:32 am

61. Chandelle, #55

    I am not offended. Like I said, I just consider it disrespectful. I think Janet expressed it well.

    I don’t think that you are understanding the impact of holding some anti-consumerist, made-up ritual and calling it a “native american blessingway.” The whole idea is misguided.

    Comment by MAC — December 14, 2007 @ 11:33 am

62. “Scouting tends to reinforce the stereotype of active boys vs. more passive, spiritual girls. That’s just my impression.”

    “I mostly felt slighted with the scouting activities and camps, which were extravagant (to my teenage eyes), well-organized, and well-attended.”

    Unfortunately, both these issues are leadership problems.

    In our Ward, only two of the eight girls even wanted to go camping and have adventures - the others just wanted to do make-overs and have girls night out. Either way, doesn’t matter, the girls got to plan their own activities and fun.

    When they did finally plan a camping trip, it was canceled because none of the women leaders - or other women in the ward - were willing to go (including myself).

    Until we as adult women are willing to provide opportunities for the YW, they will always get the short end of the stick.

    Comment by BusinessWoman — December 14, 2007 @ 11:36 am

63. Okay, I am totally awash in new convert incompetence and failure. I had no idea about any of these traditions. Nobody told me about a new dress for New Beginnings–I’m not even sure the girls wore dresses; if it happens outside the chapel, we probably just wore school/work clothes. Nobody told me about the grandparents coming for his ordination–I probably offended them (again) because I had no clue that families make a big deal. And money or gifts for Eagle Scout? Never occurred to me.

    Which goes to show that these things do vary from family to family, ward to ward. And may be cultural and personal rather than having anything to do with church policy per se.

    Comment by Naismith — December 14, 2007 @ 12:18 pm

64. To be fair, I was the only girl amidst a crowd of boys. Until adolescence when I resisted Mom shopping for me, I got a new dress at pretty much any excuse my mother could think up.

    I hadn’t realized that “blessingway” was the name of a Navajo ritual. Now that I have, it makes me very uncomfortable.

    First, I don’t think we should appropriate the rituals from other religions and give them the same name. It seems very disrectful to me. I wouldn’t like it at all if someone thought the idea of reminder underwear was cute and made some of their own and called them Mormon garments. I don’t think we should do the same for others.

    Secondly…I’m a little uncomfortable with making up semi-sacred rituals at all. It’s too close to comfort to making up ordinances, and that seems like a good way to both denigrate the actual ordinances and to divide the Saints. Individual families can (and should) do whatever they want, but it shouldn’t come from the church.

    Comment by Katie P. — December 14, 2007 @ 12:30 pm

65. Naismith, FWIW I don’t think some of these traditions have anything to do with being a convert. I’m a seventh (?)-generation Mormon who was raised in Utah Valley, and I never had a new dress for New Beginnings. I’ve never even heard of that tradition. (Not that it’s a bad one at all, if families want to do it; I personally have just never heard of it.) I do remember lots of people coming to baby blessings, ordinations, missionary farewells, etc. especially in Utah where people seem more likely to have lots of extended family, but I’ve always gotten the sense that kind of thing was ultimately up to the family to do or not do. Even in Utah I don’t think any of these traditions were so embedded in the culture that they could be thought of as anything like requirements–different families did things different ways, and I don’t remember any complaints or critical comments if people failed to follow them.

    Comment by Eve — December 14, 2007 @ 12:55 pm

66. Tona - I’m sorry to say I don’t know of anyplace. The few yahoo groups I’ve stumbled upon are orthodox to the extreme and would find this particular conversation to be complete heresy. I would absolutely adore the person who started Feminist Mormon Young Women Leaders.

    Comment by reese — December 14, 2007 @ 12:59 pm

67. I served in YW at the same time my husband served in YM. He took the boys on High Adventure to a somewhat distant location. NO trouble finding men willing/able to go. I pushed for a similar activity for the girls. Two problems: the belief that girls camp equals high adventure, and , as BusinessWoman said,

    “Until we as adult women are willing to provide opportunities for the YW, they will always get the short end of the stick.”

    I had trouble garnering support from other women. Also, there was much trouble garnering support from husbands of those women. Amazing that a man can take time off work for scout camp or high adventure, but not so that his wife can enjoy a similar experience.

    I know this a little off the topic of celebrating womanhood, but Artemis’ observation of

    “the church’s policy position of not involving the girls in anything that would, erm, compete with the boys’ programs”

    really struck a chord with me. I was told the same thing. One of the first times my ideas of the church were shaken. We here so much over the general pulpit of our amazing worth, but it is hard to see that played out in the day-to-day. I feel sometimes that we are to be placated by such patronizing statements, only so we don’t notice that we are to be seen (serve, serve, serve) and not heard (no opinions).

    OK, sorry for the rant. Guess I’m still pretty upset. Also, why isn’t girls camp more like high adventure. Girls don’t want it? Not every chubby nintendo scout wants to go hiking either, but they go anyway. I think more girls would enjoy this sort of thing if we treated them as if they could do something else besides get handy with a glue gun.

    Comment by sol — December 14, 2007 @ 1:07 pm

68. Um, we hear so much over the pulpit. Not “here” so much. Oops.

    Comment by sol — December 14, 2007 @ 1:09 pm

69. One more thought. This will seem odd following my rant on policy. Someone touched on this a little, I think it was m&m, but I’m interested in others’ thoughts.

    Doesn’t this really all boil down to what we really believe about our inherent worth? No program or ceremony can create self-worth. There are plenty of Eagle Scout RM’s who don’t know a fig about their worth and responsibility as sons of God. No special evening with the bishop and grandparents can tell me who I am or my place in God’s plan. What are WE teaching our daughters about their place? Let’s not teach them to look to sources outside themselves and their God to discern their worth. Recognition and spotlight are nice, but only last an evening. A girl or woman empowered with worth from within will be neither inflated or deflated by recognition or by the lack thereof.

    As for my rant, that is a problem with unequal opportunity for experiences. Not a feeling that boys get more opportunity to be taught their inherent worth.

    Comment by sol — December 14, 2007 @ 1:19 pm

70. so…um…has anybody responded to my question about why the church hasn’t similarly adopted girl scouts the way they have boy scouts? did i just miss it somewhere? i wasn’t being rhetorical.

    Comment by chandelle — December 14, 2007 @ 1:21 pm

71. # 70,

    My only insight is hearsay, but I was taught by my uber-conservative mom that girl scouts is uber-feminst/liberal. I’m sure the church views it the same way. Just look at the difference between Duty to God and Personal Progress. DtG focuses much more on becoming a productive member of society, not just a productive member of a household. Girl Scouts might teach girls to develop skills other than baking, crafting, and looking pretty. That would be horrifying.

    Yes, this is a little cynical and bitter, but I do believe there is truth in what I am saying. Also, not interested in long defensive posts from YW leaders about all the wonderful marketable skills they are teaching their YW.

    Comment by sol — December 14, 2007 @ 1:32 pm

72. Because the Girl Scouts have morphed from a character building organization into a issue advocacy group.

    The Cookie Crumbles
    The Girl Scouts go PC.

    Comment by MAC — December 14, 2007 @ 1:38 pm

73. My understanding about Girl Scouts was that they don’t allow religious affiliations such as a church sponsoring a troop and having autonomy over that troop. Boy Scouts is set up to allow this. And yes there is that feminism issue.

    Comment by RJR — December 14, 2007 @ 1:44 pm

74. In my first ward as a young mother, our bishop would call up the boys and the girls when they left primary to present them to the ward. He then would introduce them to the ward in sacrament by sharing some of their strengths, talents, and accomplishments. Because he was wise he focused on character accomplishments as well as more visable ones. Then as the boys progressed through the priesthood and the girls into the different Young Women’s classes he would then call them up in sacrament meeting and present them to the ward. He would ask parents, and teachers before about their strengths. I can’t tell you how excited I was for my daughter to turn twelve. Then we moved. Now only boys are presented in sacrament meeting. My two of my three daughters have moved past young womens. I have mentioned this idea to my bishops, but no one has taken it up. It is such an easy way to recognize the girls and the boys. Sad.

    Comment by camay — December 14, 2007 @ 1:50 pm

75. I think one of our problems is that New Beginnings isn’t really analogous to an ordination ceremony - scouting or priesthood.

    I have never really see a ‘ceremony’ of this sort. — or do you mean just something that exists? The young men go into a small room, with their family, and they are ordained. In scouting, they get to stand up in front of whoever is there to get their badge or whatever as only a small part of the whole meeting. I haven’t been to a New Beginnings for a while, but it seems that it can be used to focus on the individuals as well as the theme…to introduce them, spotlight them, welcome them, etc. This seems no less ‘ceremonial’ than a pack meeting, which is anything but individual focused.

    When I was a young woman, I had the president(cy?) visit me in my home to welcome me. They made a big deal out of it, brought me my PP book, and I think a gift or something. Plus I think I was mentioned in Sacrament meeting as a Primary “graduate.” When I got my medallion, my parents came up with me, mom put in on my neck…it was a pretty big deal. I think back then we also got something every couple of years as well.

    I agree with whoever said that the YW tend to get a lot of planning and attention, and the YM’s program never seems to have that same kind of oomph, except maybe with campouts, but really, I personally was never one who cared about having more than one camp (So much of that seems to be about personality, not really what programs ’should’ be like in my mind.) I am still not a big fan of the big campouts for the boys. That will be something I will grit my teeth through with my son. I am praying he will live through his scouting experience. Seriously.

    In my mind, it all depends on the leaders and parents. So, my suggestion for progress is that anyone who is in YW works with the YW to help them think of valuable, balanced activities. Have the girls get involved. Train them to be leaders. Be positive about the program, PP included. MAKE it a good program, instead of ‘waiting’ for the program to change, which it may not. Help the girls prepare for their future — to be educated, to be spiritually prepared for whatever their future might hold, and to have the skills and vision to enable them to be mothers (if that opportunity comes to them) and homemakers (which we really all are). But help them discover their worth and feel prepared for life and connected to God, no matter what opportunities that come their way in life. Help them see that life is what they make it. You can do that by helping them see that the YW program is largely what they make it.

    My whole point is that unless we are proactive and positive, the girls (and boys, for that matter — how many of us truly love scouting?) will pick up on that, and learn to take a passive and/or negative attitude. We shouldn’t expect that things around us have to change in order to be happy, to feel valued, to be successful.

    I also think soooo much of this depends on parents. If we complain about or hold back on the programs, how can we expect that our children will have good experiences with them? Truth be told, I struggle with scouting, but I try with all my might to be positive about it with my son and reinforce that this is what the leaders want for him. And I am open as all get out with my girls that things are different for them and that is ok.

    We make scouting a family affair — discussions are as a family. Pack meetings are as a family. We try to involve everyone as much as possible. I want my girls to feel a part of the process, even if they don’t wear the blue shirt.

    Some other ideas from our home: When our children reach 12, we will do baptisms for the dead. When they turn 8, we take them to General Conference (obviously, this is a luxury because we live close enough to do this.) Their baptisms are BIG deals, with family and all. They get a nice set of scriptures from grandparents, etc. If the leaders won’t make a big deal out of entering YW, we will. The goal is to meet every Sunday (ha. that’s the goal, I said) to discuss progress in Faith in God and scouting for our oldest. When our daughters reach 8, the goal is to meet weekly with them, too, to see how they are doing on Faith in God. This has gotten my brain going on other things we might do — like recognize goal progress in FHE or something like that.

    In short, I think there are lots of things I think we can do as parents to make sure that all of our children feel important, cared for, and recognized, regardless of what local leaders or even programs do. And we can also share ideas with local leaders as appropriate. (”Hey, what do you think about having the YW come up in sacrament meeting to get their medallion” (if they don’t already). Etc.

    Comment by m&m — December 14, 2007 @ 1:59 pm

76. Wow. Long comment. Sorry.

    Comment by m&m — December 14, 2007 @ 2:00 pm

77. so…um…has anybody responded to my question about why the church hasn’t similarly adopted girl scouts the way they have boy scouts? did i just miss it somewhere? i wasn’t being rhetorical.

    What I’ve heard is the organizational differences between the two; they are not related or run similarly.

    In particular, in Boy Scouts the sponsoring organization (i.e. ward) gets to choose the scoutmaster and retains certain controls over the troop.

    In Girl Scouts, the local district gets to choose the scout leaders, although of course parents can volunteer, and the sponsoring group does not have the control with which the church would be comfortable.

    Comment by Naismith — December 14, 2007 @ 2:11 pm

78. If the Boy Scouts were ever to go ‘liberal’ I suspect the Church would no longer support them, either.

    Comment by m&m — December 14, 2007 @ 2:12 pm

79. I worked for the national headquarters of the BSA for five years. I can answer about why Girl Scouts is inappropriate.

    Girl Scout troops are independent. The leaders sign up with the national organization, and the local council or the national organization provides the venue, leaders, materials, insurance - everything.

    The BSA is not set up that way. The local council provides training and curriculum and sometimes land for camp, but any unit (troop, pack, ship, etc.) must have a sponsoring organization (Chamber of Commerce, Rotary club, public school, church congregation). The sponsoring organization provides a place to meet, the leaders, and the insurance that allows them to go places and have the kids be covered.

    There is literally no role in Girl Scouts for the church. There is an essential and pivotal role in the Boy Scouts for the ward, and there is some flexibility in there as well.

    I like the Boy Scouts. I don’t think they are perfect, but I think it’s a good thing for the boys. It would be great if there were a similar organization for girls, but, sadly, Girl Scouts is not it. Because of its structure, it would be the equivelent of abdicating all responsibility for the Young Women altogether.

    Comment by Katie P. — December 14, 2007 @ 2:13 pm

80. “There is literally no role in Girl Scouts for the church. ”

    There is also literally no role for God in the Girl Scouts anymore.

    Comment by BusinessWoman — December 14, 2007 @ 2:21 pm

81. Um, I think the girl scouts thing is becoming a threadjack. Programs in general were not the point of the post (though I did contribute a lengthy rant on the subject).

    I think a question would be whether we feel boys are valued more than girls. Whether priesthood is valued over womanhood. If so, why is this threatening to us? If we are sure of our inherent worth, does it really matter? Or is there something deeper? Are we afraid that this is how God views division between the sexes as well? That as women we are condemned to a place of “lesserhood” for eternity.

    I admit, the thought has crossed my mind and I have felt panicky and trapped. Thoughts?

    Comment by sol — December 14, 2007 @ 2:32 pm

82. While I find myself nodding in agreement to most of what has been said, when i stop really think about my own YW experience and where my life has taken me since, I find myself wishing that somehow my YW experience had done more to help me understand the TRUE importance of motherhood and womanhood.

    I spent the vast majority of my teen + years so focused on anything and everything that I could do outside the home that I think I missed the point. I always skipped those YW activities that were even remotely ‘domestic’ because I thought them beneath me, after all I was a highly intelligent woman! What need could I possibly have for those kinds of trivialities when I was going to be a high powered attorney…kickin butt and taking names. Oh yeah, sure…I’ll definitely find time to be the worlds best mother…one day. And when asked, of course I’d answer “that being a wife and mother was my deepest desire and ultimate goal in life.”

    Now that I’m married, 4 1/2 months pregnant with my first, having already told my boss I’ll be quiting in May with every intention of being a full time SAHM (and with no law degree anywhere in the near future) I find myself at a loss. What do good, intelligent, high powered wives do? What do good, intelligent, high powered mother’s do? I can’t scrapbook, sew, knit baby blankets, cook thanksgiving dinner, bake - I skipped all those activities-but more concerning to me is the feeling that I feel almost guilty by the fact that I WANT to do these things…the fact that I feel like I’ll be ‘letting myself go’ and turning into one of those dreaded Stay-at-home-utah-mormon-moms if I start doing these things. That these things are somehow less than camping, or hiking, or canoeing (don’t get me wrong, I love those things as well), or even being a lawyer.

    I can tell I’m rambling and that my experience is far from typical but I just wish I’d had a YW leader (or a religious culture) that told me that learning these skills doesn’t make me less of an intelligent, high powered woman.

    Comment by Mikel — December 14, 2007 @ 2:33 pm

83. Mikel,

    Those qualities don’t make anyone more or less of a woman. I don’t enjoy scrapbooking and sometimes feel like a freak because of it. Conversely, I have discovered I love to bake and to clean my house and am no learning to sew. Things I never imagined would be pleasing to me (things I saw as “weak”). Point is, not scrapbooking doesn’t make me any less of an LDS woman, nor does participating in my new found hobbies make me any more of a good LDS woman. Nor do they affect my standing in the world. These things are neither here nor there. What we should be teaching girls is that there is no formula for good, intelligent, successful, etc. It is only using your abilities in a way which is both pleasing to you and the Lord that matters.

    Comment by sol — December 14, 2007 @ 2:42 pm

84. I can tell I’m rambling and that my experience is far from typical but I just wish I’d had a YW leader (or a religious culture) that told me that learning these skills doesn’t make me less of an intelligent, high powered woman.

    I don’t believe even our culture says that learning these skills is less, just some in the culture. Clearly our doctrine doesn’t. Rejoice in what you are feeling! And I agree with what you are saying. If we shy away from these things in our families and YW, we do the YW a big disservice. I hope we celebrate womanhood and motherhood, because they are worth celebrating! And I think we can celebrate it while recognizing that not all women will have the opportunity to be mothers.

    Comment by m&m — December 14, 2007 @ 2:44 pm

85. Re: #70-71

    I don’t know if there is any official reason why the church never officially adopted the Girl Scout program. It’s not a matter of the church actively shunning Girls Scouts, though. From the beginning (1912), Girl Scouts has been a completely separate entity from Boy Scouts, so a close church association with the BSA organization would not automatically carry over to GSUSA. These days, the externally politicized aspects of both Scouting programs (mostly the discriminatory policies of the Boy Scouts compared to the devotedly non-discriminatory mission of the Girl Scouts) makes any official relationship with the church problematic. [Which is why I think the church should pull out of scouting altogether, but that’s another topic.]

    I can tell you that the church by no means discourages LDS girls from being involved in Girl Scouting. And in Utah, the Girl Scouts have a very positive and respectful relationship with church leaders at the highest level.

    Comment by Rechabite — December 14, 2007 @ 2:51 pm

86. And to return from the Scouting threadjack, here are my 2 cents.

    1c. In favor of intimate, meaningful, private ceremonial rituals such as Artemis describes? Yes, I am. I’m also kind of a neopagan anarchist as well as a true believing Mormon, so I totally dig that.

    2c. In favor of perpetuating non-Navajo use of the sacred Navajo term “blessingway”? That I am not.

    Comment by Rechabite — December 14, 2007 @ 2:58 pm

87. Girl Scouts could work…the girls could make their uniforms from scratch, bake their own cookies, pay tithing on the proceeds, and hand out LDS literature as they went doo-to-door selling cookies- thus quenching the desire to later serve a full-time mission. Hooray! Joking. Enough with the girl scouts! Sheesh!

    Comment by sol — December 14, 2007 @ 3:00 pm

88. Re #83
    

    There is also literally no role for God in the Girl Scouts anymore.

    Quite the contrary, actually. Girl Scouts is one of the few “secular” organizations in the world which is still very much a faith-based organization. In my experience, it is one of the only working environments in which a belief in God is very much celebrated. Its membership is just not limited to any specific spiritual tradition. Even if a girl’s personal spiritual tradition is devout, lukewarm, or “none.” Outside of the LDS church, I have never been involved with an organization that more firmly believes that “all are alike unto God.”

    Yeah, I’m a Girl Scout. Just couldn’t let that statement go unchallenged. Thanks. As you were.

    Comment by Rechabite — December 14, 2007 @ 3:59 pm

89. Chandelle,

    I was a Girl Scout for several years. I wasn’t aware of the policy that another poster mentioned that does not allow them to affiliate with religious organizations, but I don’t doubt that it’s true. Girl Scouts was great for me, but I’m glad it was a separate activity. I don’t think GS would mesh well with our church or any other, even though the oath does mention “serving God and country.”

    Mikel—I love you! Thank you for your comment! I’m glad I’m not the only one who loathes all things domestic. I’m a YSA who is not particularly interested in men (or women, either) all that much. My lack of interest combined with my disdain for crafts and cooking have made me feel like a super freak (the kind you don’t take home to mother). Non-domestic divas of the blogosphere unite! =)

    And I hope to someday be the kind of YW leader you wished you had: someone who can help the girls progress and show them that it’s okay not to be Martha Stewart.

    Comment by Phoenix — December 14, 2007 @ 4:15 pm

90. M&M 75 - When I refer to a “ceremony” for the boys, I’m referring to an institutionally accepted recognition or celebration, not necessarily a party exclusively in their honor. Going into a room with friends and family to be ordained is a sacred ceremony, and given that it is a sacred ordinance I’m not suggesting we do the same for the girls, I’m just saying that we don’t really have an institutionally accepted means of recognition. As we’ve seen in the thread, some leaders make a big deal of kidnapping beehives, some don’t, some bishops recognize in sacrament meeting, some don’t. New Beginnings is not just a Beehive night, every YW there has needs that need to be met and it can be a lot to cram into one night, depending on your demographics.

    The closest thing is probably your example of scouting, where the boys get recognized for every badge they earn as one part of a larger meeting. The problem is that YW have no time or place set aside to recognize every personal progress goal they complete. They get one night a year along with everyone else - YW in Excellence. In some wards I’ve tried to recognize on Sunday as part of opening exercises, but that can take a tremendous amount of time away from the teacher’s lesson which is already crunched for time as it is.

    I won’t give you a long-winded defensive post, Sol, because heaven knows that if you plan your activities around the personal progress book, most of them are going to be homemaking activities. That’s just a fact.

    But to the thread at large I just want to speak up for us poor beleaguered YW leaders and say - Please don’t ask us to do one more thing. Depending on your resources in the ward, how many inactive members you have, how much support you get from parents, yadda yadda yadda, trying to plan some big extravagant outing can just be impossible. Until you’ve served in YW, you have no idea just how much is required of us. It’s exhausting and never-ending. Plus, we don’t have half of the resources the scouts have. Not from anything inside the church, but as some have mentioned, the BSA has tremendous resources to draw from with free training and experts and manual after manual of what to teach these boys. Every thing we do has to come out of our own little heads. I say if you’re unhappy with the activities or efforts of your leaders, go up to one and offer to teach something based on your talents. She’ll probably fall into your arms weeping in gratitude.

    Comment by reese — December 14, 2007 @ 4:30 pm

91. reese, thanks for explaining what you meant, although I never thought you meant a party.

    I do think that somehow, somewhere, the YW are recognized as they transition into YW, no? It seems like any leader worth her salt is going to mention a new YW somewhere to a group, to make that transition noticed and to notice the individual.

    FWIW, I have been underwhelmed at the ‘recognition’ that goes on at scouting. Sure, they get a badge or pin here and there, but all in all, it’s not that big of a deal in my mind. I feel the important part of it all is the more private work we do, and that is accomplished through Personal Progress as well. To be honest, I’m not really a fan of the recognition part, although I do think that young people get something from that. I think this is something YW leaders can talk about, perhaps. Maybe recognizing girls as they progress through Personal Progress at Mutual, or letting the YW share once in a while what they have done? I feel there is a lot of meaning in the YW program and just like scouting, it depends on the leaders and parents who can make or break the experience for the youth and help them see the underlying value and purpose of it all, rather than focusing too much on trappings.

    I say if you’re unhappy with the activities or efforts of your leaders, go up to one and offer to teach something based on your talents. She’ll probably fall into your arms weeping in gratitude.

    I LOVE this!

    Comment by m&m — December 14, 2007 @ 4:45 pm

92. I’m honestly floored that so many people think Personal Progress is all about homemaking skills. It is much more about personal spiritual development. I was just released from YW after a stint of nearly 4 years and I promise you, I spent much more time teaching scriptures in relation to PP than teaching homemaking skills.

    PP is actually quite a balanced program with a lot of room for individual interpretation; young women are allowed to write their own experiences and value projects. I can’t think of a way to make it more open to everyone with different interests and talents. How long since you all read the PP book? I’m honestly curious.

    As a mom of boys, I worry a lot more that the young men of the church are missing out on spiritual development, when scouting is all about outdoor experiences and sports and career building skills, than I worry about young women missing out on what scouts do. I think that’s improving, as well, though. I have great hopes that the programs will be more similar when my kids are teens - but I want young men to become more like young women, not vice versa!

    For both programs, so much depends on how it’s implemented by local leaders. There’s really no way to get around that.

    Comment by Ana — December 14, 2007 @ 5:17 pm

93. I meant I want the young men’s program to become more like the young women’s program … just thought I’d better make that clear.

    Comment by Ana — December 14, 2007 @ 5:18 pm

94. Ana, 91, I just looked through the book and thought it looked pretty balanced. I have never, ever felt that my time in YW was all about homemaking skills, although I think that should be part of a balance program.

    Isn’t there a Duty to God thing for the young men in addition to scouting for the spiritual side of things?

    Comment by m&m — December 14, 2007 @ 7:02 pm

95. Ana, I look through the personal progress book weekly as I rack my brain for ideas. And while I do agree that it is wonderful for *Personal* spiritual development, I found that the topics that lend themselves to activities were mostly about homemaking. “Learn a skill that you can use in your future home.” is a topic that is in more than one value, and while that is purposefully broad and could cover anything from anger management to the perfect pie crust, we’re also limited by who we can get to teach the classes. If none of the leaders happen to be therapists….standard homemaking class it is.

    The goals that are more along the lines of “Read this scripture and write down your feelings about it.”…well, I’ve never been successful at working those into a whole hour and a half evening of fun. During Sunday lessons absolutely, but activities…I’m stumped. I’d love to hear any ideas you have.

    Comment by reese — December 14, 2007 @ 7:38 pm

96. How about we co-opt the idea of a bar-mitzvah? Only we wouldn’t call it a bar-mitzvah, of course.

    This seems to have the best of all worlds. (1) It recognizes the coming-of-age for both boys and girls, individually. (2) It provides a forum to celebrate spiritual accomplishment - aka, knowledge of the scriptures. (3) It is accompanied with a party.

    Comment by Sophrosene — December 14, 2007 @ 8:40 pm

97. Scouting is a lot more than camping and outdoor activities. We had scouts who struggled to meet their camping requirement because they didn’t like doing it, yet met all the other criteria fine. There are 120 some different merit badges, though all Eagle candidates must have at least the required 12 and another 9 elective ones. Just recently we had a bunch of scouts earn their Plumbing merit badge. There is Duty to God, which provides an extra component of spiritual development, but their scout leaders are their priesthood quorum leaders, so they get a well rounded experience between Sunday meetings and weeknight and special activities. In theory. Scouts, YM, and YW are only as good as the leaders make it. Ward support and parent support are important too. There is a reason why they have an Eagle Scout pin that they give to the mom and dad.

    YW programs have had a lot of development in the past few years, and I have no suggestions to make them better. That has to come from ward, stake and general church leadership. I have seen in many of the previous posts a lot of good ideas and examples of YW leaders who were doing all in their power to provide genuine enrichment for their young women. And mothers and family members can develop their own family rituals to teach whatever they choose to be important to their girls.

    If I was a YW leader (heaven forbid) I might comb through those merit badge requirements and find things of value for “my” girls to learn. Like plumbing, or first aid, or citizenship…lifesaving, journalism, home repairs, emergency prep….reading! Space exploration! Fingerprinting!? Dentistry? ok maybe not dentistry…

    Comment by Mommie Dearest — December 14, 2007 @ 9:12 pm

98. Sophrosene, 95

    Bar Mitzvah is gender specific. For girls and women it is called a Bat Mitzvah.

    Comment by MAC — December 14, 2007 @ 9:48 pm

99. Someone hit it on the head, it’s not entirely the programs that are haywire, but how they are implemented. I agree there doesn’t seem to be enough focus on spiritual development for boys. That is my experience. I think the problem is how we seem to pigeon-hole both genders. Scouting and camping were just examples, not the point. I still think the focus should be in equal opportunity for experiences in many realms for both genders. As someone who has served in YW, I can say I tried very hard to introduce activities that were outside the pigeon-hole, yet constructive, fun, and interesting. I never had a chance to find out if the girls would have been resistant. It was the other leaders who dug in their heels. I think this is the sad reality of the problem. Many people are either too stuck in their ways or too lazy to try something new.

    Comment by sol — December 14, 2007 @ 11:41 pm

100. reese, let’s talk more. I’m at tjhangen at comcast dot net. Would love to brainstorm possibilities.

     sol #98 I agree. It’s about being creative, open-minded for both genders and providing the opportunities that our HF would have us provide for them. That has a lot to do with seeking inspiration as leaders and not getting stuck in the traditions — however lovely — that evolve in any ward & stake.

     Comment by tona — December 15, 2007 @ 11:35 am

101. MAC, I know that.

     Comment by Sophrosene — December 15, 2007 @ 4:23 pm

102. I find it interesting that the reverse suddenly becomes true when we are adults. The Relief Society suddenly has a huge budget while the Elder’s Quorum and other men’s programs become lackluster. We even have a “dedicated” room that we meet in every Sunday. And yet… I don’t hear the men complaining as they file away to “behind the stage”, “in the gym” or some other such room every Sunday. It’s all about perspective. Does it also need to be mentioned that Scouting isn’t just the LDS church? It’s a national organization so OF COURSE there is going to be more organization and options available. I guess the equivalent would be to have the Girls Scouts go mainstream in the LDS church then.

     Comment by loralai — December 16, 2007 @ 10:32 am

103. What is wrong with learning homemaking skills? These are valuable, real-world skills everyone needs! As a YW leader, I was shocked to see how few real-world, “homemaking” skills my YW had. Personal Progress was one way to encourage/force those learnings. I agree that PP shouldn’t be (and isn’t) all about homemaking skills, but there certainly is value there.

     As a YW, I never felt unequal to the boys. If we girls wanted something, we found a way to make it happen. This was a combination of hearty resolve on our part (the YW), total support from our parents, and a willingness of leaders to make things happen (perhaps not an easily repeated combination). For example, our YW leaders put tremendous effort into Girls Camp, and we got to have all the adventure (planned with much more precision) the boys had–great hikes, white-water rafting, horse-back riding, skeet shooting, cliff jumping, rock climbing etc… I recognize this was entirely because the YW leaders were willing, but part of their willingness was because we as YW made it known this is what we wanted. Not all of my YW leaders wanted to be “adventurous” (and I don’t blame them–they’d never been exposed to such things), but in our case all it took was one willing leader, coupled with the desire of the girls in YW. To be fair, some of the girls were initially skeptical/scared of the activities, but it was a good experience for all in the end.

     Comment by Kristy — December 17, 2007 @ 10:22 am

104. Your wrong Giveitup. I was told by a member of the Primary General Board that the girls activity day program was designed not to compete with the cub scout program. There is an unwritten rule.

     Comment by Sister Snarky — December 20, 2007 @ 12:01 am

105. Kristy - there is nothing wrong with homemaking skills inherently, but I definitely bristle at the idea that girls need to be taught these things at church, while the boys are learning survival skills and leadership skills in scouts and priesthood. Homemaking skills, like cooking, laundry, and cleaning are basic things that all adults should be able to perform. I feel like the point of diminishing returns on these tasks is very low. There is nothing particularly difficult or special about them, nor anything that makes women more suited to performing these jobs. I still remember my 12 year old coming home angry because their beehive activity involved cleaning the nursery, while the boys played basketball yet again. I’m sure someone here has seen deacons cleaning the church nursery, but I haven’t.

     Suppose we did try to somehow do something so that girls didn’t feel like they were “missing out” (or whatever the goal might be). And then they grow up and realize then that they aren’t doing the same things as men, and at that point, you can’t change that. You can’t cover it up with rituals or anything you can make up. At some point, our young women have to come to grips with this reality, and we need to help them do that with faith! They and we need to realize our divine worth is not tied up with what we do or don’t do, and especially not what we do or don’t do in comparison to the boys/men.

     The quote above is from m&m in #37. The first part of it articulates my feelings exactly - ceremonies, budgets and certificates will not hide the fact that the church views men and woman as inherently different. She chooses to approach that fact with faith, I choose to approach with the attitude that the church is wrong. My daughters will never have the priesthood or be in leadership positions over men at church and I have complete faith in their ability to draw their own conclusions from this fact. If they choose to believe this is the natural order of things, that will be their perogative, but it won’t be because I haven’t presented an alternative view to them.

     Comment by Cheeriogal — December 20, 2007 @ 8:30 am

106. cheeriogal, i agree with what you said. but i don’t think anything in the church will ever change regards gender differentiation, so long as an essential church doctrine is that gender, and, apparently, its culturally-assigned roles, is divine and eternal.

     Comment by chandelle — December 20, 2007 @ 10:41 am

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