Dear fMh: My Husband left the Church and now my Children hate to go.
I have been LDS for 30 years, my entire life. Ten years ago I married a man who had converted to the church 2 years prior when he met me. He continued to live Mormon principles and participate in the church until 3 years after we were married or 7 years ago. At that time he had his name removed and will have nothing to do with the LDS church, in fact, he is anti. He will, however, allow me to take our two children ages 5 and 8 years to church every Sunday b/c he has not attended a church regularly since he left the LDS church and now considers himself an Atheist. He will not support the LDS teachings and when I try to teach my children about religion or they are given religious literature, he makes sure it does not contain Mormon undertones. He also will make snide remarks about the church to the children. My husband sincerely does not believe in the LDS doctrine.
I have continued to attend the LDS church with my children faithfully and regularly since my husband left. Although I have put great effort into being a dedicated Mormon (as much as I can be with my husband constantly harassing me about my faith), I am now concerned about my children’s faith. The children are now aware that their father does not believe in Jesus and gets to sleep in every Sunday and they wonder why they have to go to church. I am unable to control my children in church. I can not even take them into the chapel b/c they talk really loud and will run around. I, therefore, choose to sit in the foyer with them so they will not disrupt everyone and I still have difficulty controlling them. On Sunday mornings it often takes me 30 minutes or longer to round them up for church. They hide under the bed, run away from me, won’t get dressed, etc. At night when I try to say prayers with my daughter, she sarcastically says them, until I say that we don’t talk to Heavenly Father that way and I send her to bed w/o finishing or I say them for her. They both also constantly say that they hate church and that they don’t want to go to my church anymore and ask why they have to go to church. I constantly tell them that we want to go to heaven and we can only go there if we learn about what Jesus and Heavenly Father want us to do and we must learn this at church. Since my husband left the church, I have encouraged him to go to church, even if it is not an LDS church. I have been very supportive, but he says that he feels silly going by himself and won’t go without his family.
For a couple of years, we have been great friends with an exceptionally nice Baptist Youth Minister and his family. He is accepting of me being Mormon (which most protestants are not) and my husband being an atheist. Over the years, the youth minister has grown on my husband and he recently talked my reluctant husband into going to see a nationally renowned Baptist speaker. My husband went and loved it. With this and other experiences my husband had, he said a couple of months ago that he wanted to attend their church, but will not go w/o his family.
Right now I am worried about my children’s spiritual growth. I am not only afraid that they won’t be Mormon, but that they will be atheists with no morals. I just feel that I really need the support of both my husband and I to raise these children to be Christian. I know that if we attended church together, my husband would help control them, as he does quite well. Thus, I have considered just going to the Baptist church with my family and my husband has agreed that he will go with me every Sunday and I believe he will. If he did not keep up his end of the bargain, I would just return to the LDS meetings.
Today I told my bishop and he is less than thrilled with the idea. He tells me that he can’t tell me what to do, but that he doesn’t think it is a good decision. He wants me to pray about it and tell me what I decide. I know that he cannot understand b/c he has never been in a situation like mine. I don’t think that he realizes what grave consequences my current situation can have on my children and he says I need to think about my own salvation. Isn’t my own children’s spirituality important too, I am thinking to myself.
Please give me your opinions on my current dilemma. I would appreciate objectivity and trying to place yourself in my shoes. My children are really shallow and spiritually empty.
As I see it, there are several distinct issues to address here:
First, constructive ideas for getting children to behave in (and about) church under difficult circumstances. (with perhaps parenting book suggestions?)
Second, the more abstract question of faith, if attending any church as a family is better than no church or separate churches. And
Third, suggestions (perhaps best from people who’ve “been there”) for helping this couple learn to respect each other’s very different opinions.
Comment by fMhLisa — December 18, 2007 @ 11:12 am
hello,
I am de-lurking here for the first time. I visit this site everyday even though I am not Mormon. I am a feminist and found your site through BUST magazine. I love reading all of your views and perspectives. I was raised without religion or belief in god. I strongly disagree with this statement:
‘I am not only afraid… they will be atheists with no morals.’
Religion and morals are two distinct things. If your children are raised as athiest or are given the choice to believe in whatever they want does not mean they will be without morals. You can teach them right from wrong without religion. Its your job as a parent to do that either way.
Why not teach your children all different beliefs and allow them to choose when they are old enough to make that decision? Wouldn’t that be more valuable than forcing them to attend church and dictating what they should believe about heaven etc?
Comment by squid — December 18, 2007 @ 11:26 am
Please. Atheism does not equal “no morals.” If you’re one of those “any religion is better than none” people, fine, but enough with the insulting slurs.
If your husband wants to stay atheist and needs some encouragement and instruction on how to be respectful and loving towards his family’s beliefs, then send him to my blog.
Comment by C. L. Hanson — December 18, 2007 @ 11:26 am
It doesn’t seem to me your children’s actions are a matter of spirituality at all, but simply a matter of behavior. I hate to do any psychobable crap, not knowing you or what it’s like in your house, but if the children see you and your husband acting in disrespectful ways towards each other’s belief systems, maybe this acting out is their way of testing that, or something. (again, this could be totally off track).
I would suggest, regardless of what church you decide to attend, that you sit down with your husband and map out what behaviors you want your children to exhibit (at home, at church, in the store) , and pinpoint exactly what behaviors you (both) think are inappropriate, and work together (and make sure the children know you are working together) to figure out ways to teach the kids these behaviors, and make sure both you and your husband are consistent in enforcing consequences (positive and negative) for their behavior.
Regardless of what your children (or husband) believe on a spiritual level, they can (and MUST!) still learn to behave themselves appropriately in different settings.
I would suggest the book “Parenting with Love and Logic”, for as a place to start for both you and your husband, because no matter what else you don’t agree on, I’m sure you can agree that your children need to be respectful and appropriate.
I would also suggest you seek couples counseling (not LDS, because I don’t think that would help your husbands attitude much) because I get the sense from your letter (his snide remarks about Mormons, you saying your husband’s atheism “lacks morals”, which just isn’t true, unless your husband really is a horrible person, and it doesn’t sound like he is) I get the sense that you both need to learn to respect the other persons beliefs and to treat each other’s choices with more respect. And if you haven’t figured out how to do that yet, perhaps a counselor could help you figure it out.
Comment by fMhLisa — December 18, 2007 @ 11:32 am
I home teach a family (empty nesters) where the father is a devout Catholic but the mother and the children (three boys and one girl) are devout Mormons. The children have all served missions and now they are all married (in the temple). The Catholic father is one of the best Christians I know of. He attends his own church (by himself) but also attend our ward meetings. In fact, over the past 20 years that I have known him he has been one of the most consistenly active members of our ward. He has spoke in Sacrament meeting when his children left for their missions and he once gave a leson in Elder’s Quorum. I am sure that he would prefer that his family attend his church but he has accepted the arrangement as it is. He has grown to love his “Mormon community,” as he calls it.
As a former bishop I feel a bit funny giving you this advice but I would suggest that you work out a similar arrangement with your husband. You will agree to attend his church with him and the family if he will agree to stop bad mouthing your church in your home. It sounds like the children might have a problem anywhere with only one parent but perhaps a more harmoneous environment at home and encouragement from your husband will help them to behave wherever they attend church. It would probably be hard to convince them to attend two services on Sunday.
I believe that, unless your husband is a total jerk (I assume he’s not since you stayed with him all this time) he will soften his heart and see that you are trying to do what’s best for your family while trying to maintain the faith that you have accepted.
I wish you the best of luck in this effort. Please don’t lose your faith and know that the Lord is standing beside you as you face this challenge.
Comment by lamonte — December 18, 2007 @ 11:44 am
In the end, what is more important - keeping your family together, or where you sit on Sunday mornings?
Comment by Phouchg — December 18, 2007 @ 11:46 am
When I was going through my divorce, I had a court order to attend a parenting class. It was the best thing I ever did and completely 100% changed the way I parent my daughter. The techniques I learned have resulted in a much better relationship with my daughter. And, she’s much more obedient. There are great books about there about giving kids choices and letting them live with the consequences, something that even very young children can learn. For example: “OK, you have two choices. You can go to church with me and behave while you are there and then you can [insert something here, like watch TV, go to a movie, have dessert, go to Disneyland]. Or, you can not go to church or misbehave in church and you will [insert something here that would teach them Christlike actions, like spend the day cleaning trash in a vacant field and not watchin any TV or playing with friends]. It’s amazing what kids learn when they chose, then live with whatever consequences results of that choice. When they get older, they can then start making bigger choices (and living with those consequences).
Next, I agree with the other posters– atheism does not equal no morals.
Last, I disagree with your bishop that you attend the LDS church regardless of the toll it may take on your entire family. Can you do both services? Like one hour at an LDS church (Sacrament meeting) + one hour at a Baptist church? Then maybe your husband would compromise a bit, too, like attending some non-service LDS activities with the whole family. If you teach your children about Christ, the importance of attending some type of religious service to reinforce teachings, and then keep your family happy and intact, that, I believe, will have a far greater chance of bringing everyone back to God in one way or another in the hereafter.
Good luck!
Comment by Lulubelle — December 18, 2007 @ 11:47 am
Two quick ideas:
1) Maybe someone could volunteer to sit with you on Sundays and help out with the kids. Someone discreet who won’t make it more embarrassing than it needs to be.
2) If the kids aren’t into church, maybe you could look to alternative ways of developing their spiritual experience, in addition to church. I don’t know what would be appropriate for their personalities, but perhaps a smaller setting with fewer distractions? A service project, instead of sitting still? Some other way of participating in spiritual life might help them see what it is you hope they experience at church.
Comment by z — December 18, 2007 @ 11:52 am
Another great book is: I Refuse to Raise a Brat!
Comment by Lulubelle — December 18, 2007 @ 11:52 am
I also see the opportunity here to model your beliefs through a loving lifestyle, talk to your children about the differences between yours and your husband’s beliefs, what motivates them, pray for your children, and then trust them with God in whatever church-going arrangement you work out.
Comment by Vg — December 18, 2007 @ 11:53 am
I’m in a similar situation. I’m very spiritual, I even got a Masters degree in Women’s Spirituality, but my partner is an athiest. I have a different outlook on my situation however. I teach our children about every spirituality I can find (but we do stick mostly to a Universalist, Heavenly Mother emphasised, version of Mormonism) and their papa teaches them that you don’t *have* to be spiritual to be a good person. That way, I feel like my kids really are getting a balanced diet of religion and will be able to make informed choices about spirituality when they are older. Snide comments however can be beyond annoying so I would suggest that you sit down with him and strike a compromise. You can tell the children that some people believe in God (or a form of God) and some people, like Dad, don’t. Perhaps if he has a fair shot at telling them honestly how he feels then he wont be apt to make snide comments when you tell them what you believe
Good luck.
Comment by Ayla — December 18, 2007 @ 11:54 am
I agree–his snotty attitude about church is not about atheism, but is probably indicative of disrespect of you and what you believe in. A person can choose to leave the church, and they can also choose to *leave it alone*. It doesn’t sound like he is doing that.
And, your kids’ misbehavior sounds like disrespect, too. Not a lack of spirituality. I wonder if there are other areas where they show disrespect (i.e, obeying you, behaving in stores, etc.).
It sounds like spirituality is not the problem, just a nice excuse or cover-up for the real issue, which is a lack of respect.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Comment by janescott — December 18, 2007 @ 11:55 am
“My children are really shallow and spiritually empty”
That’s not a very nice thing to say. And I can’t even imagine how it can apply to someone as small as 8 or 5 (!!) years old. Kids at that age like climbing trees and jumping on beds. That may be “shallow” by adult standards, but who cares?
I hate to be a jerk about it, but are we sure this letter is real? The way the term “Mormon” was used, and a couple other things, seemed a little off to me.
Anyway, assuming it is real, my advice to letter-writer is to work on improving your family relationships. Don’t worry about the religion thing until you can establish even minimum standards of love and decency in the way everyone is treating each other. I don’t see any pair of people who are showing respect for each other (you-husband, husband-you, you-children, children-you, etc). Work on this in a way that is independent of religion. Start with yourself and showing unconditional love to your family members that is not conditional on their feelings about the church.
In the mean time, obviously you can and should be doing your own observance (prayer, scripture, etc). If you can’t attend church even by yourself, insist on getting visiting teachers and home teachers who can help bring the gospel to you privately (don’t pressure the rest of your family to be there).
You children will be better off in a loving, happy, respectful family where everyone is actively looking out for each other and building each other up, than a family that has token outward elements of LDS faith but is totally fractured.
I don’t know if the Baptist thing is a good idea. I kind of think it isnt. If your husband is atheist, why is he going? If you don’t believe it, why are you going? If it is supposed to magically solve all your problems by just going to ANY church, I’m very skeptical. As I said before, I’d work on the PROBLEMS first, specific religious creed can be worried about later.
Comment by Anonymous 2 — December 18, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
I have to ring in on Lisa’s third paragraph. Even if your husband doesn’t believe anymore, that doesn’t mean he needs to be antagonistic.
Sometimes when people leave the church, it is because they feel that they have been deluded for a long time and they’re angry at the perceived waste of time. That may be why he’s so rude–he’s still dealing with some anger/frustration. However, watch your own attitude toward his atheism (and is he really an atheist if he enjoyed the Baptist church so much? sounds more agnostic or religiously undecided to me). Being agnostic myself, I can tell you that it hurts to have my beliefs ridiculed as well (I have to admit the atheism = no morals was kind of below the belt). If you’re not respecting each others’ rights to believe, then it’s going to cause issues for a long time. Marriage counseling is a great way to learn to express and respect each others’ differences of opinions.
Lastly, I wouldn’t sweat that my children don’t like church. Lots of kids don’t. My son hates it. They resent having to sit for long periods of time and listen to talks and lessons that don’t mean anything to them yet. Church has got to be the least child friendly environment I can think of. While Primary has made some steps (although I haven’t been in primary for two years now, so things may have changed), it still has a long way to go before it’s structured in such a way as to make the time productive for the children.
Comment by Lessie — December 18, 2007 @ 12:01 pm
Sounds like your contempt for atheism is similar to his contempt for the church. So can you really blame him? Maybe you can both agree to mellow out and have better mutual respect for your partner’s genuine beliefs.
Atheists are not amoral anymore than Mormons are cultish or Mountain Meadow Massacre murderers. Sure you might find some atheists that are amoral and some Mormons that exhibit bad behavior. But pushing a stereotype or worst-case-scenario on the other is mean spirited.
Also, there may not be as much of a correlation between your childrens’ poor behavior and your husband being anti. A lot of kids don’t like going to church or act up. You might want to consider working on their behavior without blaming it on your husband.
I’m sorry for your difficult situation and hope you find peace.
Comment by minnie mouse — December 18, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
Can I focus just a second on your bishop?
Today I told my bishop and he is less than thrilled with the idea. He tells me that he can’t tell me what to do, but that he doesn’t think it is a good decision. He wants me to pray about it and tell me what I decide. I know that he cannot understand b/c he has never been in a situation like mine. I don’t think that he realizes what grave consequences my current situation can have on my children and he says I need to think about my own salvation. Isn’t my own children’s spirituality important too, I am thinking to myself.
Do you really think that the bishop hasn’t been in that situation, or that he hasn’t had discussions and/or training on how to handle these situations? Really? IANAB (I am not a bishop), but my informed estimate is that any bishop with at least one year’s experience has dealt with plenty of similar situations, including cases where a spouse has left the Church or with a part-member family, etc.
Second, your children’s spirituality is important, but so is yours. No matter what your solution entail, part of it needs to include attending sacrament meeting and partaking of the sacrament, even if you have to go alone.
I am glad to see at least one former bishop has responded above; he and others have encouraged the ‘dual-church’ arrangement, which mirrors recommendations given in our stake.
Let’s be careful to give bishops a little bit of respect, if not credit.
Comment by queuno — December 18, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
Dear Guest,
What concerns me here is that he is making choices regardless of your feelings. As a husband, your situation sounds to me like it’s less likely an issue of religion as it is marital communication problems. The religion thing seems to be his way of lashing out and hurting you. It’s easy sometimes to allow religion to be the battleground we fight about, but frankly, it’s a hell of a lot easier than fighting about our own personal feelings and struggles.
Having said that, I think the core of this entire issue rests with your husband. Go to counseling and figure out why he is disrespectful to you. I have a hard time believing that he is a supportive, loving husband outside of this religion issue. If he allows his children to disrespect their mother, if he is condescending about your beliefs to you and in front of them, I think that your relationship should be a far more pressing issue than whether he’s going to Church. Get to the bottom of the relationship issue, and I think you’ll be able to see the religion issue much more clearly.
Comment by Justin — December 18, 2007 @ 12:16 pm
I’m not a member of the LDS church, nor have I ever been, but I’m married to someone who has been LDS all her life. She attends every Sunday with the kids (7 and 6). While I don’t agree with the teachings of the LDS church — or any other church for that matter — I do respect her beliefs, and if she wants to go and take the kids, well, then I have a few hours to myself. I also help get the kids ready, etc.
To me, your issue seems to be more about respect. He should respect your thoughts/feelings/wishes, and work with you, instead of showing you total disrespect. Also, by the way, atheists can and do have morals (though I think this has been covered in other posts by now).
Here’s what I don’t get — he’s an atheist, but wants to go to a Baptist church? Strange. I’m an atheist, and I’d just as soon go to a dogfight as a Baptist church.
Comment by Rick — December 18, 2007 @ 12:24 pm
I just want to reiterate the comments about respect–it sounds like husband, wife, children do not respect each other in this house. Please find a counselor and work through that issue and then everyone will be in a better place to figure out the church business. Because right now, whichever church y’all attend will not change the sad dynamics of your household.
Comment by Julie M. Smith — December 18, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
I second “Love and Logic.” I’m alarmed that a 5 and 8 year old cannot sit without being disruptive in church. How do they get through school? Of course let them bring drawing paper, pencils, even Harry Potter if they like. I don’t expect kids that young to get anything other than general atmosphere out of Sacrament Meeting.
It’s not feminist to have your kids walking all over you. What are they learning about the personhood of women?
Have you been to a service at the Baptist church your husband says he would attend? You say the youth pastor is a neighbor–you should check out the children’s program and see what you would be getting into. We have a certain amount of quality control in our wards since we’re all connected and have manuals and handbooks and accountability and systems for handling the money. The baptist church in question may be a well run healthy community given your friend’s place in its ministry–normally nonmormon christians looking for a church home have to weigh whether a particular congregation is a spiritually healthy one before making it their home church.
Next week the Baptists will hold Christmas services while there is no LDS service, that could be a good way to start to ease in. And, once you’re in a Baptist context, there is a cultural of daily family “devotion” which is going to pretty much license teaching religion at home and having daily family prayer like you’ve trying to do under duress. Since most my friends are nonmormon christians, I’ve attended a lot of nonmormon christian worship services outside my regular normal LDS life, and I think you could really make this baptist thing work for you.
And, I believe you can be a gracious witness for the restored gospel to your family and others if you can be enthusiastic about your common Christianity while retaining your testimony and not letting anyone push your buttons.
One of your Bishop’s unspoken concerns is that if your family commits to regular participation over to the Baptist church, your five-year-old wont’ be baptized, and you won’t be able to continue paying tithing, which will disrupt your sense of membership and ability to attend the temple. I hope you and your husband can come to greater respects for each others’ beliefs (let them worship according to the dictates of their own conscience) so that you can honestly answer your children’s questions about your personal beliefs when they arise.
Comment by Johnna Cornett — December 18, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
It sounds like your husband is a jerk, and wants to change you for his selfish ends. (ie- he’s an atheist who wants you to bend and go to a baptist church for him, doesn’t make sense outside this context). I think you need to re-define the relationship and let him know you are a human being with real thoughts and feelings as equally valid as his, and he doesn’t have the right to treat you like this. If he doesn’t want to have an equal relationship, get out of there.
Otherwise, your kids are normal. Kids talk loud in church, and it is hard doing it alone. My advice would be sit with friends at church and ask them to help with the kids. It’s a-ok to get help. Also, where are your parents? Are they active members? Can they come to church with you? Can you send the kids to them while you work this out? Could you go stay near or with them if needed?
Comment by Matt W. — December 18, 2007 @ 12:55 pm
I don’t see how this is a good time to make a change in anything other than 1) building a marriage where no matter the subject, sarcasm, hostility, and undermining are unheard of 2) teaching kids to behave right in all settings, obey your instructions, and love and respect their parents.
don’t move. don’t switch churches. don’t get a new job or go back to school. A family can’t keep together when every relationship inside it is toxic. you have an emergency here, get help.
Comment by cchrissyy — December 18, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
I’ve read this post, and the following comments, with great interest. As an ex-husband who has left the LDS church, I’d like to think I have a perspective that may be useful on the question. At the same time, I don’t really want to upsent and alienate anyone here, so I’ve hesitated. I’ve decided to jump in, and I hope I can do so in a way that makes all of you feel respected, even if we disagree. That said, if the powers that be find this post offensive enough to delete it, I understand. Fair enough?
There was a time when I was more than an average “true believer” in Mormonism. It’s even fair to say I was a bit of an extremist. Accordingly, I raised my children with a firm grasp on doctrine and a good knowledge of Mormon history. They learned to have absolute faith in the teachings of Mormonism.
Then I did the unthinkable. Over a period of time, my own study and experience led me to change my views on Joseph Smith and Mormonism. This change in my faith subsequently allowed me to make personal decisions which I previously felt I couldn’t make. I came out of the proverbial closet, divorced, and had my name removed from the records of the LDS church. Understandably, I created a huge challenge in my daughters’ lives. The father who taught them Mormonism from the cradle was now rejecting the faith, not to mention living as an openly gay man.
I would not say that I am an atheist, but I no longer believe in the foundational concepts of christianity, let alone Mormonism. My daughters are aware of this fact. Their reactions range from unconditional acceptance to disowning me as “unworthy” of being called a father. I do not dispairage the LDS church to my children. At the very least, it’s a very good moral code by which children may be raised, and frankly, I’m not in a position to give them something to replace it. For that reason, I am troubled by the atheist husband in this post’s example.
On the other hand, I experience real concern, which I suspect this father shares. I worry that my daughters will blindly follow, to the point of rejecting critical thought. I have already seen a daughter reject me as her father, for the offense of getting a tattoo (at least that’s what she said at the time). When I expressed concern to her mother about this sort of dogmatism, the daughter in question was informed of that concern, and perceived it as an attack on the faith she loved. As a result, she refused to communicate with me for nearly a year.
As I read these comments, I realize that some come from those who absolutely believe that Mormonism is unquestioned, divine truth. As a result, the father in question is perceived as obviously wrong. His beliefs are seen as a threat to the children. From the description, he obviously needs to find a more constructive way to share his views. He shouldn’t have to be silent, even if the mother sees his views as subversive. I’d love to see this couple be able to respect one another, including respect for each other’s differing views.
So here’s my question–both for myself and for the example father. Assume, for a moment, that the father has a right to teach his children, just as the mother does (something the Constitution respects). How does he teach his children to examine spiritual ideas for themselves, rather than simply accepting what they hear at face value, without driving a personal wedge in family relationships?
Comment by Nick Literski — December 18, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
“I am not only afraid that they won’t be Mormon, but that they will be atheists with no morals.”
I wish that more LDS (and the larger world of Christianity as a whole) people would realize that this is an extremely offensive statement not only to atheists but to everyone who doesn’t fit into your neat little box of organized religion. I cannot count the number of times I’ve heard this and all it comes down to is pure, unadultarated, even enthusiastic ignorance regarding others’ beliefs. Morals and religion are not one in the same. I have known both extremely upright, moral people on both ends of the spectrum–and the same goes for grossly immoral people.
Sorry for the threadjack. Maybe you are so afraid of your children becoming athiests because you identify it with your husband’s behavior. I think, as other posters have mentioned, that the disrespect your children see between you and your husband regarding each others’ beliefs is manifesting itself in their behavior during church.
The only thing I could suggest that I feel doesn’t carry the possibility of fanning the flames of disrespect between you and your husband’s respective beliefs (that includes going to both church services–snide comments and eye rolls will probably happen sometimes unless a gargantuan effort is made–one that I wouldnt even expect most people to hold up over any length of time, especially if they outright disagree with what is being taught in the service) is a Sunday activity that the whole family can attend, that teaches moral, socially responsibility, and family values. Perhaps volunteering? Or just spending time together as a family without interruptions–hiking, playing board games, working in a garden, or any other special project you can all do together. Kids appreciate and remember the time you spend with them, and maybe it will benefit you all more than struggling to get them to behave in church every Sunday.
Comment by anna a. — December 18, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
sorry, that last 3rd to last sentence was supposed to read “morals, social responsibility, and family values.” It’s been a long day!
Comment by anna a. — December 18, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
Hi, Guest–
I know this must be a difficult quandary for you, especially because (as others have remarked upon) it’s a multifaceted one. You face the problem of your husband’s disparaging attitude regarding something you hold dear; its perhaps unintentional encroachment upon your children’s behavior and beliefs; the question *of* whether or not that encroachment involves intent; your husband’s seeming vacillation between hard-line atheism and full-hearted embrace of its seeming opposite (the baptist churches I’ve attended have been more charismatic in nature than LDS meetings, so it’s intriguing that your husband would desire that faith community instead of something in-between such as the Unitarians); whether or not you’re complicit in leading your children away from a faith and ordinances you believe mandatory for salvation; the attendant hope for an eternal family per LDS doctrine; and the painful paradox between the last two items on the list. Does attending another church in order to keep your family together make sense if so doing precludes the covenants which bond families eternally? Happily, I think that paradox has a middle ground (is there a word for that regarding paradoxes?)
So. I don’t envy you. I quite agree with the recommendation to seek couple’s counseling inasmuch as any spouse who regards a partner’s spirituality with scorn–especially in front of the kiddos–acts inappropriately and possibly as a cover-up for other issues. You can present a “united front” to your children on essential issues such as familial respect regardless of whether or not you and your husband can unite on the issue of faith. Until he can treat what you cherish without sarcasm and tacit approval of your children’s disrespect, I’m not sure any of the rest will make a long-range difference. (And if you’ve disparaged his beliefs of lack thereof in a snide fashion in front of the kids, that would have to stop, too.) I could be totally wrong, of course–I’m not a trained family therapist.
Two other things:
1. Ditto to those who’ve made suggestions for fostering your children’s spirituality–and civil behavior–in a variety of ways. You could tell them they needn’t believe as you do (we can’t coerce faith, of course!), but that they MUST behave respectfully when they accompany you to church. If they were older I’d probably let them choose whether or not to attend, but they’re still really small. They might just be acting obnoxious because it’s how they deal with the dissonance between you and hubby. You might need to have a really open chat about how they feel regarding this dissonance.
2. I see nothing inherently wrong with attending both a Baptist and an LDS congregations. Maybe your husband would come to SM if you go to the Baptist meeting with him? He’s clearly invested in familial unity–YAY!–or he wouldn’t want the whole family to go with him. Perhaps he’d make a concession if you will. I’ve certainly learned things at other churches, and I enjoy attending them even though I’m pretty die-hard Mormon. When he was branch president, my BIL actually followed SM by taking the youth in his branch to a different religious service every week for a while, a sort of crash course in comparative religions. They thought it was neat. And we had a couple in our St. Louis ward composed of an orthodox wife and an atheist hubby. He attended church because he valued the community and wanted to support his wife–and in return she didn’t hassle him about his atheism. Our bishop even gave him a calling. Everyone knew he was atheist, everyone knew not to bombard him with pass-along cards, and everyone adored him and absolutely saw him as part of the ward family.
Which is to say, I think you can come up with something workable if you’re both willing to engage in the give and take necessary for marital success. I’m truly sorry you can’t/don’t have the situation you view as ideal. That’s really really hard–I doubt any couple enjoys complete agreement regarding issues of faith, but this particular situation is admittedly dramatic. But it does sound like your husband is opening up to the possibility of sharing a part of himself he’s not previously wanted to share with you or the children, and that’s FANTASTIC.
Sorry this is so long-winded! I’m horrible that way. Good luck in your journey.
Comment by Janet — December 18, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
Oh heaven, that really WAS long now that I see it all printed up. Ack. Sorry!
Comment by Janet — December 18, 2007 @ 3:51 pm
Very well said, Johnna Cornett
Comment by Janet — December 18, 2007 @ 3:53 pm
My advice, as someone who had an inactive husband for years when my kids were small:
1) Get a blessing from your home teacher whenever you feel the need.
2) Stay close to your HF and the Spirit. If you have the Spirit with you it’ll help tremendously.
Everything I’d say has already been covered.
Comment by Susan M — December 18, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
Guest -
I want to push back on a couple of things. First, you say that your husband is making snide remarks and is an “anti.” I would like better evidence of both of these things, but I have to go from what you said. With all due respect to all of us Mormons, we tend to have a hair-trigger oversensitivity to perceived slights based on religion. Why are you calling him an “anti”? And what kind of “snide remarks” is he making?
It might be worth asking yourself if you are giving him respect about his beliefs — he may feel simply overwhelmed by the force of Mormon-ness in the home, and be striking out with cheap shots. Unless he’s just a jerk, which I doubt. The fact that you equate atheists with having no morality is a snide remark itself, and could be termed an “anti-atheist” position. “Anti” can be a two-way street. Moreover, labels like “anti” are reductive and will inherently stop conversation, which will certainly not help your situation. I’m concerned that you’re already negatively labeling your children as well — how can such small kids be “shallow” or “spiritually empty”? That’s crazy, they’re just little kids, and they seem to be acting out their parents’ issues, not anything from within them per se (although there may be behavioural problems manifesting from all of this by now; it’s not “incurable”).
I would think the priority should be to get your relationship with your husband back on track, and make sure you’re both respecting and loving each other. Then focus on making sure you’re teaching your children how to be good people — both by what you teach, what church you attend (or whether you attend one) and how you approach religion generally (ie, with openness and lots of respect and communication), and your and DH’s own actions and words every day.
Hope this isn’t too harsh, but there is a lot of judgment and labeling and dismissing in your post, and if that’s indicative of what’s actually happening in your family, then I think some serious self-reflection, marriage work, and open-minded mutual respect, together with teamwork to raise your kids, is definitely in order.
Comment by RE — December 18, 2007 @ 4:34 pm
My thought’s are similar to RE’s comment. (Though I must preface it that my world-view is limited to my experiences which do not include anything like unto yours.) Between the lines of your post it sounds like your equally antagonistic towards your husband, and have been since he drew away from Mormonism. He belittles your religion and you belittle his ability to raise “moral” children. It sounds like a truce needs to be established for both your sakes and the sake of your children.
On the other topic. my gut is that if attending the Baptist services renews the harmony in your home and enables your children to have a relationship with God (which you fear they currently lack), then by all means, hurray for the Baptists. That is not a decision that I can make and, really, one in which my input really isn’t important.
Comment by Janell the Great — December 18, 2007 @ 5:21 pm
You’ve been given some fabulous advice. I don’t really have anything to add except a phrase that has become a mantra for me: “Life is not about being right; it’s about learning how to love.”
Comment by Wild Horses — December 18, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
My heart goes out to you. I’ll pray for you tonight.
Comment by jer — December 18, 2007 @ 5:54 pm
Oh, my heart breaks for you. Maybe not for the reasons you’d think, though.
You say “that they will be atheists with no morals”. Please, please do not assume that because someone does not hold a belief in a higher power, that they are without morals. Nothing could be further from the truth. Someone who doesn’t know God, for whatever their reasons may be, are still human beings, and I’d venture that 99% of them are perfectly decent human beings, however misguided they may be. It is not our place to judge them, but to always welcome them with open arms.
You say “My children are really shallow and spiritually empty.”. This was the sentence that did me in. They are children!! CHILDREN!! They are not shallow, they are confused. They are not spiritually empty, they are desperately trying to find where spirit fits into their lives and how it is supposed to fill them. They can not be held accountable for their lack of knowledge and life experience. They know only the example they are provided. Please, please do not pass such harsh judgements onto the shoulders of your already suffering kids. They literally know not what they do.
Also, discipline is your friend. Your children may not like Church, but they must still respect you and your authority as their parent. Disobedience should be met with swift repercussions, and the nonsense acting out WILL stop. Might not happen overnight, but trust me, if you remain firm and focused, it will happen. Lack of obedience = lack of priveleges in our home, and boy does that do the trick. This issue reaches far deeper than religion. I’d work on nipping their behavior in the bud before anything else.
I was raised Baptist, and converted to LDS 6 years ago. I often long for and miss my childhood Church, because it was so incredibly different from the way we worship now. It’s a hard adjustment, I won’t lie. If your husband feels at home there, I’d encourage some kind of relationship with God rather than none at all. Perhaps he should consider taking the chuildren with him and take baby steps from there. Again, fostering any kind of seed wherein God is recognized and worshipped should not be dismissed lightly. Maybe you can come to an agreement where you will attend his church for one Sunday per month to help him settle in, and in exchange he will discontinue the badmouthing and general vitrol towards your choice of religion.
I do feel sympathy for your position. It is not an easy one to be in. Many times my doubt and anger has put my husband in a sad situation as well, however he is stronger than I in this regard, and his faith always strengthens my own - whatever it may be. I do feel that with a lot of love, patience, and prayer, your family can find this peace as well. You can still find mutual love and respect in the midst of disagreement, even one as life-altering as this.
Comment by rotabega — December 18, 2007 @ 6:01 pm
It seems like you are hearing from a lot of people who are questioning where you stand and how you are rearing your children.
You have a right to choose your faith and you have a right to expect that your husband will respect that. You also have a right to ask him to help you teach your children to be respectful of your faith and give it a chance. He can ask you to help him teach your children to be respectful of his position and give it a chance, as well.
I know it hurts a lot when someone you love rejects the faith you thought you had in common. For the sake of your kids you both need to be grownups and work it out. I truly hope you and your husband will be able to work this out and present a unified plan to your kids. It has got to be very confusing for them right now. I don’t believe it has to be.
FWIW, you sound a lot like my husband’s mom 35 years ago. She came very close to divorcing her husband, but chose not to. All five of her children follow her example of faith - not their dad’s - in varying degrees. You don’t have to sacrifice the faith that your heart impels you to. I hope you will find a way to be true to what you know and what you dream for you kids. I’m sure that’s very un-PC to say. It comes from my heart.
Comment by Ana — December 18, 2007 @ 6:02 pm
I am sorry about your heartache, Guest. Have you ever visited Faces East? It is a message board for believing spouses of former Mormons. You might find a number of people who share your experience and perspective.
Religion is a matter of conscience. Your husband has proven his devotion to you and the children by sharing his feelings about religion honestly with you.
I appreciate that you find atheism scary. Notice, however, that your attitude about your husband’s spirituality is not exactly respectful either. In fact, it is quite arrogant.
In part that might explain his behavior. He seems to be just as disoriented and insecure as you.
Have you ever tried to empathize with his point of view? Unlike sympathy, empathy does not require that you subscribe to your husband’s point of view but that you try to understand it on his terms.
I don’t know your husband but I bet that he is just as concerned about your children’s well being as you are. There are a number of aspects in Mormonism that are not conducive to a healthy upbringing of children. Chances are that these weigh heavily on your husband’s mind.
Comment by Hellmut — December 18, 2007 @ 6:39 pm
I’ve lurked here for a long time and cannot lay claim to being a feminist or a housewife, but I am a sympathizer. But I felt compelled to respond to this.
First do NOT fall into the trap that religion = morals. They are very distinct and different things. People mistakenly equate morals to religion and when they wander and doubt their reason for keeping to their morals, their moral foundation is gone and they end up doing things they regret.
The best thing you could do is sit with your husband and discuss how to instill morals into your kids have him help. As many have already said your problem with kids isn’t atheism. It’s that no kid likes to go to a quiet place and sit for 3 hours. Heck, I’m a grown up and I can barely stand it sometimes. Morals is as separate from religion as sex is to marriage. It’s ideal to have them together, but plenty of people have them apart.
Secondly, make the decision. Are you married to your husband or your faith? Reach out to your husband and accept him with all his differences and ask him honestly to accept yours. He shouldn’t disparage your faith. Likewise you shouldn’t disparage his. Note that lack of a set religion does not equate a lack of faith. It simply means he does not believe as you. Use this time as an opportunity to build trust and love between the two of you instead of resenting each other as I have seen so many people do.
Thirdly, might I suggest exposing your kids and your husband and yourself to different kinds of religions. I have done this with my children to further instill the idea that morals exist without religion. They have grown to see different religions instead of bad, but rather as a personal choice that people make and that even though people might not believe as they do there is good in everyone, a lesson I think you might need as well.
Further it will help your husband on his quest for truth. With the fact that he converted, then became atheist and is now thinking about being a baptist seems like he need something to believe in and does whatever comes at the time. I’d be really worried about him taking on another religion so quickly after leaving one. I’d suggest a year of soul searching and researching all different kinds of religions before settling on any new religion IF any. There is so much out there take time. But then I’m not one to talk as I’m rather impetuous.
Take him and the kids to catholic cathedrals, jewish synagogues, taoist shrines, mosques, buddhist temples. Read the Tao Te Ching, any light religious writings you can find. Truly expand your horizon. Expose your family to the wonderment of the way different people see God. It will instill them a deeper reverence for God, no matter how they see it. Make them citizens of the world instead of citizens of your church.
Fourth. Try to understand where your husband is coming from. While I am not excusing his snotty behavior, think about what would cause it. If he’s left the church he probably feels duped. Duped out of time, money, opportunities and probably looks at the church the way most of us look at our ex lovers (I can’t BELIEVE I dated them). He’s bitter and in his eyes he has good reason to be. Doesn’t make it alright, but it does give you a reason other than he wants to be difficult.
Lastly and most importantly talk to your husband. I’ve seen too many women try to shoulder this stuff on their own. Or think that “He should know I’m frustrated” unless you specifically tell him everything you’re feeling you can’t assume he knows. You’re a partnership, don’t expect that you need to go this alone. If you’ve talked to him and he wont pull his share then counselling would be in order. But as you talk to him put yourself in his shoes. You might not agree but at least try to see where he’s coming from.
Comment by ronito — December 18, 2007 @ 6:48 pm
I wish I had time to fully respond to you, Guest. For some reason, I feel a ton of compassion for you and want to punch the proverbial lights out of those who have responded harshly. Maybe it’s because I am in a similar situation. I married when I was inactive to a lapsed protestant who is now agnostic some days and more atheistic as time goes on. I am as active as possible in my situation, and even go to the temple, for about 15 years now. I don’t feel like telling you waht to do, because your situation has some differences. You are going to have to navigate this one way or another, and only you can decide how, since you have all the information.
First of all, let me say from what little you describe about your husband’s attitude, I couldn’t have stayed married to much of that. My DH makes an effort to be respectful, and when he forgets, I will eventually give him a gentle reminder.
I know that you are capable of understanding that atheists can be very moral, decent people, and will forgive you your lapse of judgement in your statement. I think in your better moments you love your atheistic husband dearly, and want to stay with him and keep your family together.
It was a blessing in disguise for me that my DH left amost all childcare up to me. I know I suck at being a feminist, but some families are like this. He had no objection to my taking the children to church with me every week, from their infancy. I was doing that job and I got to decide how it went, provided they consented to go along with it. I was blessed that they did and never tried to weasel out of church, even when they were teenagers. But if they had, I was prepared to not force them to go. They could have stayed home, but I would go. And I will go every week. I have a sunday school class to teach.
Now that my children are in college, the oldest two are not active. I can understand why, but it causes me a lot of worry. I just live with the worry and be as supportive of a mom as I can be. They are doing well in getting their lives together, and it’s easy to be proud of them. I remember my 20’s being such a struggle, and my parents not being all that supportive beyond telling me I should be going to church.
I went through hell and back in raising my teenagers. They weren’t wild, but they could easily have been, and it took a lot of my emotional energy to try to meet the challenges of that. The DH’s midlife crisis didn’t help. Suffice it to say that they pushed a lot of our family buttons.
One thing that helped me turn a corner in my approach to all these problems was attending an Arbinger family workshop. The principles taught there can be found in the book Bonds That Make Us Free by Terry Warner. It helped me to see what things I had under my control (only myself, basically) but the way I influenced my family, and I learned about respecting everyone else’s agency more fully, and having confidence in the truth of my testimony of the gospel.
I suggest you consider if you can be comfortable attending Baptist services with your whole family. Maybe try it and see how it goes. There are a lot of variables to look at that I don’t know. If you want to remain close to the church in a family like yours, I can promise you a struggle, but your own choice about yourself is just about all that is fully within your control. The challenges I had getting to where I am now were easy for me to overcome because I believe very deeply that Joseph Smith restored this church, and I intend to be part of it. But if my DH or kids wanted me to attend some other faith with them, I’d give it a shot and look for what truth they had. Christ is definitely present in their churches.
Many of us will be praying for you and your family. God will help you if you seek his help.
Comment by Mommie Dearest — December 18, 2007 @ 7:17 pm
Mostly my comment will be one big “ditto” to things that have already been said, but I’m still writing anyways to express my sympathy to the poster. I am a young single adult living at home after graduating college. My family is varying degrees of active, mostly inactive. My mom was raised in the Church; my dad was raised Catholic. Dad converted when I was little, but always had issues with the Word of Wisdom (he loves his coffee). Little disagreements with the Church snowballed into bigger disagreements, and now he really doesn’t like the Church much at all. (Although he does faithfully serve in his web adminstrator calling.) My two sisters show up for church occasionally; my two brothers usually don’t come at all. My mom does sacrament but nothing else. So I’m (depending on how you want to define things) the only fully active member. It is hard. Sometimes I think it was easier to live with my non-member roommates in college than my inactive family. There are times when it really just breaks my heart in ways I can’t even describe. A few years ago when Christmas fell on a Sunday, I went to church alone, which I never thought I’d have to do. I can’t remember a time when I’ve cried harder than that.
So, in other words, it can be hard, but it’s not the end of the world. If you’re worrying about kids lacking morals, I’d refer you to the earlier comment with the religion/morals vs. sex/marriage analogy. Religion can be a great tool, but it’s not a guarantee of morality. My 18 year old sister recently got married and took a lot of flak for it from people in and out of the Church. My mom got really frustrated and said, “she’s doing exactly what I taught her—to be pure and get married. How can be mad at her for that?” (Meanwhile, many of her church attending YW/YM peers have gotten into trouble here and there.) Anyways, my point is that my siblings may have left the church behind, but the morals have stuck. Like they say about FHE and similar programs, the church is only supposed to reinforce what is taught at home. What we learn there isn’t supposed to be anything new. So my advice would be to do your best to teach what values you want your kids to have. If you can have religious help from Mormons or Baptists (or whoever else), great.
As for whether or not to go to the Baptist church…I’m still unsure about that one. I’m confused about the atheist wanting to go a Baptist church part. My guess is that he might want to go because of the kindness of your minister friend. I say visiting can’t hurt. My family and I went to the Catholic church on occasion as we grew up. Not on any sort of regular basis, but when our Catholic extended family had special events. Lots of kids in my ward had some sort of dual-church experience and I think it’s a great way to teach tolerance and self-evaluation of what you really believe. I’d also say that if you want your kids to go to the LDS church, make efforts to help them socialize with kids in the ward. Ask home teachers/visiting teachers/Primary presidents/whoever to make visits. You don’t need to tell them the full scoop, but maybe just seek out more informal, social activities. I have always had a strong testimony, but it’s really really hard to keep activity going when you don’t feel liked by your ward. (I’m struggling with that now, but that’s irrelevant.) Anyways, that’s my two cents. Hope it helps!
Comment by Phoenix — December 18, 2007 @ 8:37 pm
Your husband will allow you to take your children to church with you, but he won’t support you sharing your beliefs with them in your own home, so he’s pretty much negating whatever benefit they could conceivably get from going with you. Obviously he doesn’t want his children raised Mormon. After seven years of this, it looks as though he isn’t going to change his mind on that front. If he doesn’t want them raised Mormon, well, he doesn’t want them raised Mormon. But what value system does he want them raised with? Does he want them to be secular humanists? Does he want them to be Christians? He can’t just undermine your efforts in religious instruction and refuse to provide an altenative.
Your children are too young to decide for themselves whether or not they will go to church. You and your husband need to come to a consensus about whether or not they will attend church. Their misbehavior is most likely a response to the discord they sense between the two of you. If your husband is willing to attend this Baptist church as long as his family is with him, I say you go with him. This is a major concession on your part, but if him leaving the LDS church isn’t a deal-breaker for you as far as the marriage goes (and I’m *not* implying it should be), you’re going to have to make major concessions if you want to keep your marriage and raise your children with some values you both agree on.
It’s natural that you would both have anger. He resents his time in the LDS church and that he still must have ties to it by virtue of his relationship with you. I’m betting you resent that you don’t have the active LDS man you married, assuming he would stay faithful to the religion you initially shared. Neither of you is wrong for having those feelings. What’s wrong is not showing respect for the other’s beliefs (or lack thereof) and feelings. I don’t want to pick on your husband, as I don’t have his side of the story, but his behavior vis a vis your religious faith–if what you wrote here is accurate–is disrespectful and hurtful. Perhaps you’ve been taking your own anger out on him in similar ways–I wouldn’t know. But in any case, your relationship needs repair. You don’t have a prayer of accomplishing anything with your children if you and your husband are divided, especially so openly. You need to present a united front.
I’m not saying that going to the Baptist church is the “right” decision, just that it seems to have a lot of merit on its face, especially if your husband already has a good relationship with the minister and has responded positively to the meeting he did attend. I don’t believe choosing this option will put your salvation in danger. I don’t believe your salvation is ever in danger as long as you’re sincerely seeking God’s will in your life. And if you believe it’s God’s will that you stay married to the father of your children and raise them together, then by all means, do what it takes to make that happen. Get some counseling (definitely not from LDSFS–a trusted friend or your doctor will probably be able to recommend a marriage/family therapist–heck, maybe the Baptist minister knows one) and decide together what choices you can live with.
I won’t overreact to what you said about your kids. Heaven knows I have been similarly frustrated myself in the past. (Last Thursday, actually.) But you definitely shouldn’t write your children off at 5 and 8.
I think you will find the solutions to whatever “parenting” issues you currently have come more naturally as you and your husband get back to being full partners in rearing them.
Comment by madhousewife — December 18, 2007 @ 8:49 pm
Apparently this topic inspires verbosity in us all.
Comment by madhousewife — December 18, 2007 @ 8:51 pm
ya think?
Comment by Mommie Dearest — December 18, 2007 @ 9:11 pm
Thank you to those who have responded kindly with helpful suggestions for my sister in law. She is unfamiliar with the bloggernacle and FMH in general. I suggested that this may be a place where others could share what has worked well in a family where the parents hold different religious beliefs/have one parent who has left the church, so she quickly wrote up some information about her current situation. As you can tell, she is feeling overwhelmed and conflicted about how to proceed, so thank you for reading charitably as her family is in a pretty difficult situation.
I have seen her respond to hard situations with her typical humor and grace–I know that she will do the same as she works through these problems. Thanks to those of you who have been able to offer some insight.
Comment by sister-in-law — December 18, 2007 @ 9:57 pm
My heart goes out to you. I agree with much that has been said. If I understand you, you are concerned about three issues:
-there is disrespect regarding your differing beliefs
-dc are acting up, esp with regards to church/church attendance
-the Baptist church may be a unifying alternative
If my experience means anything, I would say that that #1 thing to address is respect. It’s what everyone else here is saying. Nothing will work–not the Baptist church, not all of you becoming atheist, not improved parenting techniques, nothing will work without respect.
I think fMhLisa (#4) may have a good point about why dc have behavior problems.
While the Baptist church may be a unifying alternative for you, I don’t know how many eggs I’d put into that basket. Since he only stayed with the LDS church for 5 yrs, this may also be just a phase. But even a short-lived phase may give you some room to work out the other issues.
Responding to #16: It’s quite possible–even likely–that her bishop does not know how to handle this situation. My dh left the church 20 yrs ago (he is agnostic) and I cannot tell you how many bishops I’ve had who were totally clueless. They were well-meaning and sincere–I’m don’t fault them for that. But they had absolutely no idea of the issues I dealt with and often they and other church leaders made my situation more difficult with their thoughtless words and actions. I’ve really only had one bishop in all these 20 years whose actions and words truly reflected understanding. (Unfortunately, he was our bishop for less than a year!)
That is one reason I started Faces East discussion board (Thank you, FMH for the side-blog!) You are most welcome to join us! The LDS view of marriage is so tied up in our religious and social life, that marriage to a disbelieving spouse is fraught with countless land mines–within the marriage, for the believing spouse’s own personal faith and within LDS community life. We hope Faces East can be a resource and support for LDS with differently believing spouses.
It may seem bleak at times, but I can tell you that you can have a happy, healthy marriage. I hope you can find the good counsel and support you need to make that happen. Peace.
Comment by prairiechuck — December 19, 2007 @ 12:07 am
i don’t have time to read all the comments thus far, so pardon me if my comment is redundant.
i was quite taken aback by the comment that your very young children are “shallow and spiritually empty.” if they are acting up it is most likely because there is so much contention in the home and they are confused and testing the waters. children whose parents are going through a divorce often act similarly.
i think counseling, not church-hopping, is the best option for everyone. those children need stability, and your marriage needs mediation.
threatening your children with religious beliefs (i.e., we won’t go to heaven if we don’t go to church) is counterproductive and will probably blow up in your face in the long run.
i was lucky enough to leave the church WITH my husband, so we never grappled with these issues in any serious way. but we did go through a period when it was uncertain that we would officially resign together; despite not believing, my husband felt that he might continue to take the kids to church occasionally and teach them some basic doctrine. ultimately, he felt differently, but at the time i made it clear that i would support him in that endeavor but that i would not attend church myself, that i would not lie to our children, and that i wanted his support in exposing our children to a wide range of spiritual beliefs. we agreed upon mutual respect and were even in the process of laying down ground rules when my husband decided to leave the church as well.
what is lacking here from your husband is respect. i certainly understand the anger and helplessness that can attend resignation from the church; i hesitate to allow my son to spend saturday nights with his grandparents, for example, because i don’t want him to go to church the next day, without us, when he is so young and impressionable. nevertheless, that very real concern does not and never will translate to attacking my in-laws for their religious beliefs or making snide comments to or about them for their religious beliefs. that’s just basic respect, as it would be accorded to anybody.
regardless of your husband’s anger, he’s making your job as a mother extremely difficult. what he’s doing is not so different from divorcing parents who refuse to find common ground and undermine each other’s attempts at parenting. what he is doing is wrong and counseling may be the only way you will work that out.
he should not be pressured to attend the church, or any other church, if he doesn’t want to, and he should be supported in his spiritual search. i think a compromise could be possible - perhaps an hour in your church, then an hour in his.
and i don’t think you should assume that your bishop doesn’t know what he’s talking about. he is the bishop after all - it’s extremely unlikely that you are the only person he has counseled whose spouse as gone inactive or resigned.
i see a lot of labels in your post: “atheist,” “christian,” “anti-,” “spiritually empty,” “shallow,” “immoral,” and so on. behind these labels lie people. please don’t forget that.
Comment by chandelle — December 19, 2007 @ 10:10 am
i wanted to mention (but forgot) that indeed a major problem here is a lack of respect from your husband. but i also hear a serious lack of respect from you toward your husband and your children. sorry if that sounds harsh, but a lot of your post rubbed me the wrong way - not as an ex-mormon, but as a mother and as a partner.
Comment by chandelle — December 19, 2007 @ 10:13 am
I am the person for whom my sister-in-law posted the problem/scenario which has been the subject of discussion. I first want to apologize for wording my story to make it sound like I equated atheism with lack of morality. I never intended it to sound like that and want everyone to know that I consider myself a pretty open and accepting person and do not hold that belief. I am writing to express my gratitude for all of the opinions that were given. I have pondered and prayed about them and realize that many of the comments were so appropriate and helpful. I think that I have to deal with the respect and discipline issues. I have already talked to my husband about the issues and am hopeful our situation will improve. We have come up with a plan to develop strong morals in the children and I hope that we all can follow through. Many of my ideals must change, but this is something I think that I can deal with in my life. I will use all of your suggestions when considering what church all or some of us should attend on a weekly basis. I will also check out some of the suggested books and websites. I will continue to think about and prayer for those of you that have written in that are in similar situations and/or feel isolated by their families. Again, I sincerely thank all of you for your help and suggestions.
Comment by Enlightened — December 20, 2007 @ 10:26 am
Enlightened,
I have just one thing to add-if you still end up by taking your kids to church, I think being out in the foyer is a very bad idea. There’s no incentive to behave there, it’s kind of like a reward for misbehavior. Because they were bad, they’re able to go where there is more room to move, where it’s easier to escape you so they don’t have to sit down, where there is no one who could help you enforce their good behavior, etc, etc. I think you should move back into the chapel.
Comment by Firebyrd — December 20, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
Enlightened, your comment made me hopeful for you, and confirmed a lot of the things I believed about you. God never leaves you without help if you keep trying to find solutions, and in a situation like this, it’s usually up to you to get creative and find some. Looks like you already know that. I can quit fretting about you.
Comment by Mommie Dearest — December 20, 2007 @ 8:51 pm
My heart goes out to you. Not only did your husband choose a different path than what you thought he would choose, but he is now being disrespectful to you. It seems he is angry and blaming you for whatever reasons he decided to leave the church. I think It will serve for you and he to air how you feel he is treating you. And then work out a compromise. If he wants the family to attend the Baptist Church for a certain length of time, go for it. But you have the right to assert your wishes, too, which may include the whole family–including him–attending some/an equal portion of your ward’s church meetings. Compromise goes both ways. As for your children misbehaving, I bet they aren’t as great an interruption as you fear. As a single sister, I sat in meetings, and was sympathetic for single [appearing] moms who struggled to control her little ones. I never felt critical of the moms (or the kids).
Now I have a 21-month old, and it is my turn to worry about us disrupting Sacrament meeting. But as I watch those around me, I realize we’re not. Anyway, no more so than before we had our daughter, and my husband and I fell asleep [or played games on our Palms] in church. I know the more I focus on my relationship with God (am I opening myself to feeling His love and joy with me), the less I worry about being a “good” mom/woman/wife/member/etc., and the less my daughter seems to be bugging those around us (which based on the comments I get, she never bugs them–she delights and enchants them).
As for worries about raising your children as “atheists without morals,” I hear you. I interpret your statement that you fear your childdren will grow up without the love/peace/comfort–security that you got/get from growing up in/living the gospel. You would feel a void if that were taken from you, and you don’t want your children to suffer that void. The best you can do is focus on sharing that love and peace with them. They will make whatever choices that they will make. Some of those choices will bring them (and by extension, you) pain. You cannot protect them from that pain. But if you share with them the joy/peace you feel, they may remember that, and may then choose to bring that joy/peace into their life.
To those who dislike atheists being identified as being “without morals”, I’m sure no offense was intended. I intend no offense here, but my experience of atheists is that they don’t do much other than attack religions. From cartoons portraying the Angel Moroni on the SL Temple as Mickey Mouse, to lawsuits over nativity sets and menorahs in public parks, Atheists seem to identify themselves as “against something” instead of “for something”. If you are atheist or know atheists, maybe it would serve to take the time to show what atheists are for, to define who atheists are, instead of who atheists are not.
Comment by Lehua — December 26, 2007 @ 1:10 pm
hm, i think that’s really interesting, since atheists see most religious people as being terribly negative, condescending, accusatory and condemning, “against everything” indeed.
Comment by chandelle — December 26, 2007 @ 6:48 pm
Please read today’s post on my blog… My LDS DH left the church this past year and said he was athiest also. I have 2 children that I still choose to bring to church on a regular basis… http://joannajune.typepad.com/work_in_progress/2007/12/a-religious-fam.html this is why. I know every situation is different but, I also know that it’s always hard. Life is never what you thought is was going to be. But, no matter what choice you make I am sure that the God I believe in knows that you are trying your hardest to do the right thing for everyone. He knows it’s hard and he still loves every member of your family- regardless. (JMHO!) Good luck.
Comment by Joanna — December 30, 2007 @ 10:52 pm
Guest-
When I married my husband, he was inactive and I wasn’t a member. Three years later, I converted and yes, he had a bit of an issue with it. The difference is that we both respect that HF gave us both agency. He has never been snarky about my beliefs, nor do I nag him about his lack thereof. He also has no issues with me taking our two small children to church, helps get them ready, and comes for their programs and such.This issue isn’t so much about your husband’s faith, it’s about yours. Do you have the testimony to endure sitting in the lobby every Sunday? Do you have the faith to teach your children yourself? Is your belief enough to help you to respect your husband’s faith, regardless of how he feels about yours? If you truly believe in the precepts of the church, switching to Baptist church isn’t going to solve your problem. You’ll end up feeling like you did all of the compromising and resenting your family even more. So, examine your heart. Do you believe in the church enough to deal with this adversity? I have asked myself that question many a Sunday as I am wrestling with my 2 year old, and always, no matter how obnoxious he is (and he can be VERY obnoxious!) the answer is yes….
Good luck
Comment by McMommy — December 31, 2007 @ 11:59 pm
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Pingback by Interfaith « The Exponent — June 16, 2008 @ 12:35 pm
I am sorry with such a late response…I was surfing the net and came across this post and really would like to respond. I am not sure if anyone will get to read this, but here goes….
God is trying to find His way into the life of your family. God moves where we don’t look, don’t expect, don’t anticipate. I am a mother of four who is married to a really great guy that just does not see the need for church (which is NOT equivalent to God). From day one, I have taken my kids to church, knowing that is what we are called to do-teach our kids about God, Jesus, and salvation.
There are two points I would like to make:
1. We, as Christians, are called to put God first (which is our personal relationship with Him), then family, church, and then all else. By creating a struggle between your husband and yourself about which church to attend, then you are putting the church before your family. Remember, the church is not the same as God…it is only a place to worship and learn about Him.
2. I have studied Mormonism (as well as many other ‘Christian’ religions) and have found that many religions are man-made, and therefore not the truth demonstrated by the Lord Jesus Christ. I beg you to study the Mormon doctrine, and hold it up to the Light of God’s Word, the Bible. All other ‘truths’ are illigetimate. And don’t be afraid to question your faith. Paul commended the Bereans the most because they studied the scriptures daily to verify that what he was teaching came from the Holy Word of God (not the Pearl, Book of Mormon, or any other book).
Back to the comment I made about God trying to find His way into the life of your family. Step back outside of your circumstances. God is moving in your husband, and therefore trying to move you. It is not about which church or religion is better than the other…it is about seeking and finding the TRUE Voice of God.
Comment by trea adams — June 26, 2008 @ 11:49 am