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1. Your examples are almost enough to make one want to belief in some form of reincarnation — equal opportunity at different kinds of mortal probations. Apparently Heber C. Kimball and others taught this idea. I don’t know what I think, but would seem more “just” than the one-shot deal. In absence of such a model, I have to believe in some recompense in the afterlife — true healing for those so wounded here on earth.

   Comment by Deborah — January 12, 2008 @ 7:35 am

2. I’m with you. I’m not comfortable with that doctrine at all. Nor am I really comfortable that “God won’t give us any trials we can’t handle.” This presupposes that EVERYONE is enough to handle EVERY situation that they are fitted with. Including extreme poverty, abusive parents, mental illness, sexual abuse, etc. I think both of these ideas are related, and extremely self-centered. Then again, doesn’t every religion have the same sort of “we are the chosen” mentality?

   Comment by woundedhart — January 12, 2008 @ 7:38 am

3. This question is, to me, too much like the “how could a loving God allow disasters?” argument.

   As I understand this doctrine, we agreed to the lives we were being born into before we were born. I’ve even heard that we chose our situations. I don’t know how deep this for-knowledge goes — whether or not we knew we’d go to college or be abused. I’ve heard testimonies from abused people that they did know and yet came anyway. I don’t know if that’s true for everyone; I’ve never believed that God knows everything you will ever do before you even do it. (I could be wrong, though. )

   I don’t believe this doctrine is about a “we are chosen” mentality. Our religion is not confined to whites in Utah; in fact we have more members outside of the United States than in now. We’re not a “we are chosen” people so much as a “we have chosen.” Our members chose this gospel from all walks of life — dirt roads in the Developed World, skyscrapers in the Developing World and all the other places between and beyond them on that spectrum.

   From an eternal perspective, what matters most is not who is comfortable or who gets the highest education. The only education that matters in Heaven is your spiritual education and we can all chose to behave in a Christ-like manner no matter what kind of life we’re living. The degrees of difficulty are different for everyone but then, everyone’s spiritual needs are different. I trust God (and my pre-mortal self) to know what I need and what I can take. God doesn’t give us trials that we can’t bear but that doesn’t mean He doesn’t give us trials that we can’t bear alone. Sometimes we need others to help us; often we need Him.

   There’s also this; just because God put us there in the beginning doesn’t mean He intends for us to stay there. A certain young man born into a farming family in Vermont in 1806 comes to mind.

   Comment by Proud Daughter of Eve — January 12, 2008 @ 9:28 am

4. I think we sometimes overestimate and overstate the importance and value of our “privileges”. I’m all for more economic and social justice in the world, and I think we ought to be grateful if we were not been abused as children. But there are lots and lots of folks leading beautiful, fulfilling, rich and gentle lives in the midst of extreme poverty. My African husband would give anything for the chance to live again in his village in a little hut, with no plumbing, with his chickens, goats, and land. And education doesn’t necessarily lead groups or individuals to wisdom.

   I don’t believe god has much control over the situation her children are born into—but i do believe that she enriches, blesses, and graces with dignity all of our lives.

   Comment by Amy S. — January 12, 2008 @ 9:30 am

5. but amy, that’s not so much the real question. personally, i think living in a hut in africa with no plumbing and chickens and goats sounds great! but what about the child who supposedly chooses to be born into child prostitution or to be born with AIDS? whose every moment in existence is filled with pain and horror just to die at such a young age that they haven’t really learned anything except how cruel and terrible life can be? there is no real dignity for some of these children and women. there is not a single moment of peace for some of them.

   one ugly side of that “doctrine” (assuming it is doctrine, that slippery fish) is the apathy and self-righteousness this might instill in some people. how easy it would be to say that a person not only chose to live in horrible circumstances but indeed is even growing from it. i grew up in an abusive home and had somebody said such a thing to me, i can tell you it would have offered me no comfort and may indeed have even inspired a bit of condemnation toward god.

   and if i hear somebody say that these people exist in terrible circumstances just so somebody else gets the chance to be charitable, i will scream.

   Comment by chandelle — January 12, 2008 @ 9:51 am

6. As I understand this doctrine, we agreed to the lives we were being born into before we were born. I’ve even heard that we chose our situations. I don’t know how deep this for-knowledge goes — whether or not we knew we’d go to college or be abused. I’ve heard testimonies from abused people that they did know and yet came anyway.

   The thing is, things like this don’t seem like doctrine to me. It feels like faith promoting rumours. We feel better about situations if we feel we chose them, but this just feels too controlled to me. I agree with Amy S that I don’t think God has much control over things like this or natural disasters. I just don’t think there’s that level of involvement from on high.

   PDoE - I agree it’s much like the disasters question, but it’s also different, in that this is about us as an individual and the implication that God chose (or we chose or we agreed to) events/problems/family situations before we came.

   It’s the Saturday’s Warrior scenario and I tend to think that we take stories like that and make them real for everyone in every time. I just don’t know that I buy that we all chose every challenge that we face. And I really don’t want to believe in a God that would choose to send some people to the horrendous lives they have.

   Amy - I wasn’t saying that you can’t be happy when you’re poor or live in Africa (forgive me if it came over that way). Wherever we live, in whatever circumstance, I believe we can be happy. I just don’t like to think that God chose someone to live in a place where they’re literally starving/ being raped/ born with an incurable disease, just because it will “do (them) the most good”.

   Comment by Rebecca — January 12, 2008 @ 9:53 am

7. or how about this one? i once studied a case of a baby born with no skin. the moment she was born she was shot up with morphine and she was kept constantly sedated until she died. if she didn’t have enough drugs, she would scream hysterically in agony more horrible than any of us can imagine. where was her dignity? what did she learn? or was she just one of those “special souls” lucky enough to be born in such circumstances that she could die early because “she just needed a body”?

   Comment by chandelle — January 12, 2008 @ 9:55 am

8. I have a hard time believing loving parents would allow their children to get shots, knowing that those shots hurt and might make them sick. Why do we do it? Because the shot is an eyeblink compared to what could otherwise happen. Because we know as badly as it hurts in that eyeblink, it will reinforce their immune system and keep worse things from happening. That eyeblink seems like forever to a child getting a shot. What we do is make sure we are there, holding their hands and waiting to comfort them as soon as it is over.

   It’s all a matter of the eternal picture. Sure, right now this life seems like IT. We can’t remember anything before. But as hard as some have this life, it is just an eyeblink in their eternity, and the loving God is right there, holding our hands and waiting to comfort us as soon as it is over.

   Comment by SilverRain — January 12, 2008 @ 10:01 am

9. chandelle-
   But we have to remember that this life isn’t the only one. Of course, it’s the only one we truly know right now, but it’s not the only one. We lived before, we will live after. Living a short life of crap is usually just that –short. Those that choose to use this as a “look how great I am!” aren’t understanding it. I think we’re all smart enough to know that God is no respecter of persons.

   PDoE has some very good points. I really like what she said.

   Comment by cheryl — January 12, 2008 @ 10:02 am

10. Aww, SliverRain, you said it so much better than I did…

    Comment by cheryl — January 12, 2008 @ 10:07 am

11. Thanks, Cheryl. Here goes some cross-posting, hm?

    Comment by SilverRain — January 12, 2008 @ 10:16 am

12. (While I was composing this comment, several others have made some of the points I wanted to make , SilverRain in particular. This is a topic I have strong feelings about, but I don’t have time to totally revise what I wrote below. So forgive the repetition, please!)

    I agree with PDof E (#3) that:
    

    This question is, to me, too much like the “how could a loving God allow disasters?” argument.

    I don’t believe we knew every detail of our mortal lives prior to birth. Although I’m not sure exactly how much we knew and understood about mortal life in our pre-earth life, I think we probably agreed to accept any conditions, no matter how “horrible” they might be. Perhaps we were confident that we could prove ourselves no matter how severe our test might be. Perhaps we were better able to put our very brief time on earth in an eternal perspective, and believe that we could endure anything for such a relatively brief time.

    I have recently been around all my young grandchildren at a family reunion, and I realized again how often they cry. They fall, they run into things. They quarrel and get their feelings hurt. Do we immunize our babies, let our toddlers get cuts and bruises, allow our children to injure themselves riding skateboard & bicycles and playing sports? Do we permit our children to interact in society, even though might be bullied, belittled, ostracized, or come in last in competitions? If we do these things, we probably think that these experiences are a necessary part mortal life. We believe all of us can learn useful things even through suffering and pain.

    I also strongly agree with PDoE’s statement:
    

    The only education that matters in Heaven is your spiritual education and we can all chose to behave in a Christ-like manner no matter what kind of life we’re living.

    Although I am grateful for my education and material goods, I have lived many years in developing countries, and have seen how much peace and happiness members of the Church can have even though they may be illiterate, live in a shack at the subsistence level, and have difficult family situations. Most of my ancestors lived this way, as did most of the world’s population until relatively recent times.

    I have been inspired by stories of people who have managed act in Christ-like ways, even in concentration camps. And I believe that those who have suffered terrible abuse in this life can be healed through the acceptance of the Atonement of Christ–either in this life, or in the life to come.

    And those who are traumatized and corrupted by their experiences also have hope in the Atonement. As I understand it, the mercy and forgiveness of God will take into account all extenuating circumstances at the time of judgment.

    Perhaps the Millennium will be a time of healing, learning and rejuvenation for all those who had lives which were, as Thomas Hobbes termed them, “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” In any event, I believe that one day we will all agree that God is both just and merciful, and all tears will be wiped from our eyes.

    Comment by RoAnn — January 12, 2008 @ 10:50 am

13. I don’t see it as God allowing bad things to happen. I see it as *us* allowing bad things to happen.

    Comment by Susan M — January 12, 2008 @ 11:04 am

14. SilverRain and Cheryl - I think you’ve missed my point. I understand the need to see the big picture, but my question isn’t whether the pain suffered here is worth it, because it’s all relative. That is probably not much consolation to a child prostitute or battered wife.

    My question is, do you think God purposely chose to put us (and those examples I have given) where we are, knowing the horrors some of us would endure?

    Maybe it would heko if I asked this as well - what kind of God do you think about? A micro-manager, who has chosen our struggles and when we’ll have them or a loving father who watches as the world ticks on and is there for comfort when we need Him?

    I also agree spiritual education in invaluable, but I don’t think it’s the only kind you should get. We’re told to educate ourselves and we’re told we’ll take all our knowledge/learning with us. I don’t see that the two need to be exclusive.

    I have to run to one of my class member’s baptism, but keep the comments coming. It’s a subject I think about a lot and am interested in the differing views that are being expressed.

    Comment by Rebecca — January 12, 2008 @ 11:10 am

15. The 2nd God. The first one would take away agency.

    I’m going to look some things up. Then I’ll be back. Rebecca, these are good questions…

    Comment by cheryl — January 12, 2008 @ 11:21 am

16. I found this from Elder Maxwell (circa 1985):

    Premortality is not a relaxing doctrine. For each of us, there are choices to be made, incessant and difficult chores to be done, ironies and adversities to be experienced, time to be well spent, talents and gifts to be well employed. Just because we were chosen “there and then,” surely does not mean we can be indifferent “here and now.” Whether foreordination for men, or foredesignation for women, those called and prepared must also prove “chosen, and faithful.” (See Rev. 17:14; D&C 121:34–36.)

    In fact, adequacy in the first estate may merely have ensured a stern, second estate with more duties and no immunities! Additional tutoring and suffering appears to be the pattern for the Lord’s most apt pupils. (See Mosiah 3:19; 1 Pet. 4:19.) Our existence, therefore, is a continuum matched by God’s stretching curriculum.

    This doctrine brings unarguable identity but also severe accountability to our lives. It uniquely underscores the actuality of the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man.

    It also reminds us that we do not have all of the data. There are many times when we must withhold judgment and trust God, even in the midst of “all these things.” Only with the help of this doctrine can we begin to understand things as they really were, are, and will become. (See Jacob 4:13; D&C 93:24.)

    Agreeing to enter this second estate, therefore, was like agreeing in advance to anesthetic—the anesthetic of forgetfulness. Doctors do not de-anesthetize a patient, in the midst of what was previously authorized, to ask him, again, if it should be continued. We agreed to come here and to undergo certain experiences under certain conditions.

    Elder Orson Hyde said, “We have forgotten! … But our forgetfulness cannot alter the facts.” (Journal of Discourses, 7:315.) Yet, on occasions, there are inklings. President Joseph F. Smith observed how “we often catch a spark from the awakened memories of the immortal soul, which lights up our whole being as with the glory of our former home.” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed., Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1939, p. 14.)

    Then this (just a statement):

    Jesus Christ was foreordained to carry out the Atonement, becoming “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world,” (Revelation 13:8; see also 1 Peter 1:19–21). The scriptures tell of others who were foreordained. The prophet Abraham learned about his foreordination when he received a vision in which he saw “many of the noble and great ones” among the spirits in the premortal spirit world. He said: “God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born” (Abraham 3:22–23). The Lord told Jeremiah, “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations” (Jeremiah 1:5). John the Baptist was foreordained to prepare the people for the Savior’s mortal ministry (see Isaiah 40:3; Luke 1:13–17; 1 Nephi 10:7–10).

    The doctrine of foreordination applies to all members of the Church, not just to the Savior and His prophets. Before the creation of the earth, faithful women were given certain responsibilities and faithful men were foreordained to certain priesthood duties. As people prove themselves worthy, they will be given opportunities to fulfill the assignments they then received.

    See also Agency; Plan of Salvation

    —See True to the Faith (2004), 69–70

    I’m not sure if it answers all the questions, but I think it helps.

    Comment by cheryl — January 12, 2008 @ 11:40 am

17. Re Rebecca (#14) I don’t believe that God is a micro-manager, but I do believe that the Scriptures sustain the idea that God is in control of the big picture, and that He knows the end from the beginning.

    I am very uncomfortable with a “Saturday’s Warrior” scenario, if that implies that we had total foreknowledge of our mortal relationships before birth. But there does seem to be evidence that God controls geography and lineage, at least to some extent. Many patriarchal blessings seem to use language that supports that idea, and certainly many prophesies in the Scriptures speak of the lineage of certain people as being foreknown by God.

    I think God intervenes in very specific ways at times (e.g. to save a fore-ordained prophet from death), but mostly allows us to experience the results of of everyone exercizing their agency. I also believe that He is available to comfort even those who are born into the terrible conditions you gave as examples.

    I guess for me there is a distinction between God “purposely putting” and “allowing” us to be born into terrible circumstances. For me, the former implies that God wishes us ill; the latter implies that He respects agency. In all cases, I believe that God can bring good from evil, and save His children despite all the efforts of Satan to make us miserable like himself.

    Comment by RoAnn — January 12, 2008 @ 11:59 am

18. I agree with Susan.

    Also, what if we chose our parents/location eons ago, before we knew the specifics? “Ohh I’d love to be in the same family line as you. And that’s going to be a beautiful part of the Earth to be born in!”

    Then people came along, messed it up, made really poor choices that affected generations to come, and now here we are.

    I really doubt if someone’s up there going, “oh that AIDS victim on drugs just got pregnant. I’ll go!!” or “Wow, that psychotic child abuser and her drunken sexual predator husband need another addition to their family. Count me in!”

    On the other hand, maybe our spirits are so filled with naive, pure, unjaded love, maybe we would go, just to try and help.

    Who knows? But I admit, it’s certainly a problematic doctrine to teach in Essentials class, and is fraught with questions

    Comment by meems — January 12, 2008 @ 12:02 pm

19. Re Cheryl (#16) Great quotes! For me, they answer all the questions beautifully. Thanks for finding and posting them!

    Comment by RoAnn — January 12, 2008 @ 12:03 pm

20. You’re welcome. I’ve been searching some more, but I just can’t seem to find anything else.

    meems-

    On the other hand, maybe our spirits are so filled with naive, pure, unjaded love, maybe we would go, just to try and help.

    I really like that thought! Motives in the premortal world have got to be nobler than motives here…

    Comment by cheryl — January 12, 2008 @ 12:11 pm

21. RE #18 meems:
    I know someone whose family was seriously damaged by abuse. She told me that in one daughter’s patriarchal blessing she was told that she would be a savior to her family. That seemed odd at the time. But after that daughter revealed the abuse, and all those affected (including the abused, the abusers, and all other family members) had gone through much pain and suffering and repentance and healing, it was obvious that her revealing the abuse, and her eventually forgiving her abuser, that enabled the entire family to forgive each other and reestablish relationships of trust and love.

    I don’t know if she volunteered, or was foreordained to her role in that family; or iff God simply permitted her to be born where she was. But I think it is helpful for all of us to try to see the possibilities for bringing to pass much good in our present situation, no matter how bleak or terrifying it may seem to us at the time.

    Comment by RoAnn — January 12, 2008 @ 12:23 pm

22. Motives in the premortal world have got to be nobler than motives here…

    Boy, I hope so!

    That’s an interesting story, RoAnn.

    Comment by meems — January 12, 2008 @ 12:41 pm

23. Thanks for the post, Rebecca. I’ve wondered a lot about these questions as well.

    SilverRain said:

    I have a hard time believing loving parents would allow their children to get shots, knowing that those shots hurt and might make them sick. Why do we do it? Because the shot is an eyeblink compared to what could otherwise happen.

    My problem with that analogy is that (at least, as I’m reading it) it suggests that for some people, things like abuse are somehow necessary for their spiritual growth–that if they weren’t born into horrific situations, they wouldn’t get what they needed out of life. And I have a hard time believing that. A shot is painful, but in and of itself it isn’t evil; its fundamental purpose is good. I don’t think the same can be said about something like child prostitution. Even if it’s true that people can learn important and valuable lessons from suffering various evils–which I certainly think can happen–I’m still uncomfortable with the notion that God chose those evils for that individual.

    One of my concerns with this is that if we believe that the suffering in an individual’s life is somehow ordained by God for the good of that individual, we might be hesitant to attempt to relieve suffering in the world. If surviving abuse is comparable to getting a necessary shot, for example, on what basis should we try to stop abuse (and other evils) in the world around us? The doctrine that God has chosen the optimal life circumstances for each individual seems to all too easily lead to complacency; why work to combat social inequities if it’s part of God’s plan for some people to be born into lousy situations? That kind of reasoning has been used all too often historically to justify the status quo.

    I certainly agree with all that has been said about God’s ability to bring good even out of horrible situations. But I don’t think that means that the evil itself is therefore somehow part of God’s master plan. I agree with RoAnn that there’s a difference between God allowing evil, and God being actively behind it–and for me, the idea that God deliberately chose our circumstances is uncomfortably close to the latter.

    Comment by Lynnette — January 12, 2008 @ 1:16 pm

24. Perhaps there is middle ground here. Neither we choose and volunteer for a horrible earth life, or that God sends us into a terrible life because it will be good for us.

    Perhaps it is more like accepting a calling. God comes to me and says, “Alas, I have this earth position to fill. It looks very much like there will be sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and although you would be born into the church, the situation will make it near impossible for you to ever believe that it is what is claims to be. I think you have some of the strengths needed to do well in such a difficult earth calling. I think you will be one to be able to survive the difficulties without reacting with sin to numb the pain, and I think you might be able to go on to help others heal after similar experiences. There wont’ be a lot of help in healing and you will never feel like part of the church. Would you be willing to accept this earth calling?” And I feel terribly inadequate to accept such a challenge, but trusting that my Heavenly Mother and Father need this position filled, I accept. We may even discuss other options. There is another spirit suited genetically for this family, maybe she could go instead. But I know this sister and would rather I be the one to be sexually abused than her. I feel that way about my younger sister, so I can imagine that choice.

    That picture still recognizes that our heavenly Parents give and honor our free agency in all things. It recognizes that there ARE difficult earth assignments. But it also doesn’t say God chooses it or that we choose it. No, I am not such an idiot that I would jump happily or naievely into such a earth situation. I am not so sure of myself that I would jump in saying, “Oh wow a chance to save the whole faimly.” But I can see myself accepting such an earth assignment if my Heavenly Parents sat me down and we discussed the pros and cons and then I was allowed to say yes or no and that if I do say no, I know someone else has to go into that earth situation. I can see the kindest spirits taking such assignments so that their brothers or sisters do not have to suffer. I can see accepting that assignment to be born with no skin because my friend and sister might have to take it if I don’t, because my Father asked me to take it.

    Comment by alas — January 12, 2008 @ 2:03 pm

25. Rebecca, I don’t know about everyone, because I only know what happened to me. But I had a sacred opportunity to find out that I was very aware that I would be born into a family without the Gospel and a promise made to me that I would have it brought to me in my lifetime. I felt a sense of understanding, of opportunity, a chance for growth, of sorrow for what life would bring us, and overall a sense of God’s love for each of us as an individual and knowing He loved me and was aware of my life. I also knew I was not alone in this, that He had given me others to love and be loved by.
    And I am not sure about my son, I know he is a Celestial being, beyond accountability,but I also know who he is in this life, is NOT who he IS. There is so much beyond my understanding and I just catch a glimpse now and then. One of the things I KNOW,is that God loves my son, as much as He loves anyone who has been given “more” in this life. I take that as comfort, because for now, it is all that has been given me. Sometimes I can’t wait for this to be over, so we can really see!
    Good question and one I wrestle with myself, when I see the sorrow.

    Comment by Jo — January 12, 2008 @ 2:05 pm

26. alas-
    I never thought of it like that before. It would make sense that God gave us the choice, since agency is really the reason we are here. I can picture people turning down certain “assignments” just as people here turn down assignments. And I’m sure they are probably for very certain reasons (like here). Combined with meems (#18) thoughts, this would paint a very nice picture.

    Comment by cheryl — January 12, 2008 @ 2:13 pm

27. Hmm, I’m not sure I’m comfortable with the idea of being given of choice of very specific things before birth. Maybe it happened, maybe not
    .
    But I am comfortable with thought that we were all given a fairly graphic explanation of the range of possibilities of evil we might encounter (realizing that we couldn’t fully understand much of what we were told because we had never had a body), and then saying that I would be willing to be born anywhere and trusting that I would be able to call on Heavenly Father for help to get through whatever that entailed.

    Comment by RoAnn — January 12, 2008 @ 2:37 pm

28. RoAnn, and I say, any contract I signed before I had a body was signed without full knowledge and now invalid and I want OUT! Ha ha, just my way of saying sometimes I don’t like thinking I signed up for some of this, if I did, WHAT was I thinking???

    Comment by Jo — January 12, 2008 @ 2:47 pm

29. I agree with Lynnette. It can’t possibly be that God wanted Anne Frank and her family to die in the gas chambers for their own spiritual development.

    I’ve also been told that awful things happen (i.e., the Holocaust) because God cannot take away people’s agency, and people do horrible things to each other. Nice, but not convincing. I don’t think any answer is. Either God is impotent or he is a sadist.

    Comment by ECS — January 12, 2008 @ 2:53 pm

30. I really agree with Alas. I also know that God is unable to interfere with our free agency. If someone abuses that agency and harms others, that is part of the test on Earth. If God were to take away agency in horrible things, then he would be able to take away all agency. Wouldn’t we all then resent this micro-managing controlling God just as teenagers resent controlling parents. We wouldn’t grow and learn. At the end of our lives there would be no “well done thou good and faithful servant.” God can’t interfer because then our salvation wouldn’t be because of faithfulness or obediance, it would be forced on us.

    Comment by Tonya — January 12, 2008 @ 3:12 pm

31. Do you think God can control whether someone develops Alzheimer’s disease? Or whether God will protect you on your way home tonight so that you don’t crash your car and lose your ability to think and act for yourself? If you don’t think God can control these things, then why do we pray? Why do we ask God to protect us?

    Comment by ECS — January 12, 2008 @ 3:39 pm

32. If it is doctrine that we all get the trials we can handle, doesn’t that mean that HF handed out the tough jobs to souls with the most fortitude and the best chance of enduring, repairing, ultimately changing these situations? In contrast what about those of us, like me, whose difficulties in life are so small in the eternal perspective as to be insignificant, but that loom so large in the temporal realm? What does that say about us that were ‘chosen’ to live here, relatively healthy and worry free? Are we the spiritual equivilant of the remedial reading class? I don’t know if I do believe that it is doctrine, but I do think that there are many things we can’t know yet, even though that seems like a pat and careless answer.

    Comment by McMommy — January 12, 2008 @ 3:40 pm

33. I don’t believe that God is a micro-manager

    I don’t like the term micromanager, and I don’t think God spends every moment controlling things in our lives, but I believe that He *will* help us through mundane experiences, if we ask. Put another way, I do tihnk He generally cares where we live, where we work, and where we buy a house, because those are all potential contributors to how effective His mission is carried out. What color you paint your house? I don’t think He cares. What ward you move into? Yes, he does.

    I have brother who, by any earthly account, lived a miserable life. Unable to communicate or transport himself, he was in constant pain and suffering until he passed away, more than a decade more than he was supposed to live. I ask myself, “Why?” The best I have come up with are two reasons: He needed a body to fulfill mortality. Check. He couldn’t be baptized (was judged to not be accountable). So our doctrine believes he’s achieved a place in the Celestial Kingdom. That’s a pretty great gift befitting someone considered special in the preexistence. Second - my parents, who gave us many dreams and many hours to care for him, firmly believe that his extended life on the earth was for them to learn compassion, long-suffering, and to make them more Christlike.

    I don’t have answers for the specifics of why Heavenly Father allows certain things to happen. But I think it’s crazy to assume that He’s not aware of what he’s done. If you accept the oft-quoted premise of His work and His glory, then it follows that He might know what he’s doing…

    Comment by queuno — January 12, 2008 @ 4:10 pm

34. I do think that there are many things we can’t know yet, even though that seems like a pat and careless answer.

    It may be “pat”, but it’s not “careless”.

    Comment by queuno — January 12, 2008 @ 4:11 pm

35. duh.. Bad typo. Should be.

    my parents, who gave UP many dreams and many hours to care for him

    Comment by queuno — January 12, 2008 @ 4:12 pm

36. Do you think God can control whether someone develops Alzheimer’s disease?

    Maybe it’s not about the person with Alzheimer’s, but about their family and friends and the lessons they will receive.

    Thinking God is impotent or a sadist just doesn’t square with everything else the prophets or the temple teach us.

    Comment by queuno — January 12, 2008 @ 4:14 pm

37. I haven’t read the comments yet (too busy watching football), but we Mormons have a bad tendency to trot out the Preexistence as a theological deus ex machina to try to make sense of all sorts of things. And usually what happens is that it helps make sense of things superficially, but then when you think about it more deeply it doesn’t help at all but just raises more questions. Witness the folk dogma that blacks weren’t valiant in the Preexistence as a way of trying to make sense of the priesthood ban.

    I think the quoted statement from the manual is not hard and fast doctrine but is simply a Mormon speculation that, like much Mormon speculation, has not been thought through carefully. So I think the original poster should feel perfectly free not to teach it in her GE class.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — January 12, 2008 @ 4:22 pm

38. Queuno quoted ECS and commented (#36):Thinking God is impotent or a sadist just doesn’t square with everything else the prophets or the temple teach us.

    Right, which is why I think ECS (#29 & 31) may not believe in God, and might like those of us who do, to question our belief.

    Comment by RoAnn — January 12, 2008 @ 4:25 pm

39. The awful truth is we don’t really know very much about the premortal existence and how most of us came into the place where we landed in in mortality. I have a tendency to be a bit skeptical when I hear people talking in specific terms about how our lot in life turns out to be what it is.

    Believe what makes you feel better about the hand you a dealt. . My personal belief is that there is a good deal of randomness going on. Thinking as a human not an immortal I can’t for the life of me see anyway God can refuse to send spirits to people in the third world. How fair would that be?

    If life is a stage and we are all actors, then it is a course in improv. It isn’t what part you get its what you do with it that counts. It is expecting much not having little that causes grief.

    Comment by Claudia — January 12, 2008 @ 4:25 pm

40. Right, which is why I think ECS (#29 & 31) may not believe in God, and might like those of us who do, to question our belief.

    All I got from ECS’s comments is that she hasn’t been able to come up with a satisfactory answer to the problem of evil. And I’m with her there; I most definitely believe in God, but all the possible explanations I’ve encountered seem to raise more problems than they solve. If God is powerless to intervene because it would interfere with agency, for example, why do we have so many stories (many canonized) of him intervening? What about suffering (disease, natural disasters, etc.) that isn’t the result of human agency?

    Maybe it’s not about the person with Alzheimer’s, but about their family and friends and the lessons they will receive.

    I have a hard time with the notion that God would countenance the suffering of some in order to teach other people lessons. What would we think of a parent who refused to treat the illness of one of their children because they hoped that their other children would learn spiritual lessons from the experience? And if this scenario is indeed the case, should we be hesitant to search for a cure for Alzheimer’s, because we might be thereby depriving people of necessary experiences?

    Again, I do believe that God can bring good out of evil. But I still struggle with accounting for the existence of that evil in the first place.

    Comment by Lynnette — January 12, 2008 @ 5:03 pm

41. Good post Rebecca. In fact there have been a number of interesting posts about the Problem of Evil in the bloggernacle recently. I think I’ll write up a theodicy post soon. I think Mormonism is better equipped to deal with the problem of evil than most any other religion I know of.

    Comment by Geoff J — January 12, 2008 @ 5:19 pm

42. Yes, I’m asking questions because I don’t have an answer for them. Not to challenge anyone’s beliefs.

    Comment by ECS — January 12, 2008 @ 5:26 pm

43. RoAnn,

    I’m pretty sure ECS like you just fine, and I’m also pretty sure she believes in God as much as anybody else here. The question of God’s omnipotence isn’t really settled in our beliefs though, is it?

    (btw, my only quibble with ECS’s formulation is that she leave no room between impotent and omnipotent. I think there is lot of room there.)

    Comment by Mark IV — January 12, 2008 @ 5:26 pm

44. Mark - I’m not sure there’s room. Either you have the power to control an event or you don’t. I’ve heard theories that God must work within natural laws, but I don’t buy this because these theories elevate laws above God.

    Comment by ECS — January 12, 2008 @ 6:24 pm

45. ECS, Mark IV is right to question my assumption about your belief in God. I’m very sorry if I incorrectly identified you as a doubter interesting in sowing doubts.

    I guess that it’s just that in my past experience, someone who poses the kind of questions in the way you pose them in comments #29 & 31, has usually decided to believe that God doesn’t exist, rather than think God is either powerless or a sadist.

    I was ignoring the fact that one could either 1) still be in the process of wondering about the nature of God, and perhaps hoping to hear convincing evidence that He is both powerful and beneficent, or 2) believe that God is indeed either powerless or a sadist..

    If you are looking for evidence for God’s goodness and omnipotence, it seems you haven’t yet found it on this particular thread.

    Comment by RoAnn — January 12, 2008 @ 7:18 pm

46. The awful truth is we don’t really know very much about the premortal existence and how most of us came into the place where we landed in in mortality. I have a tendency to be a bit skeptical when I hear people talking in specific terms about how our lot in life turns out to be what it is.

    Believe what makes you feel better about the hand you a dealt. . My personal belief is that there is a good deal of randomness going on. Thinking as a human not an immortal I can’t for the life of me see anyway God can refuse to send spirits to people in the third world. How fair would that be?

    If life is a stage and we are all actors, then it is a course in improv. It isn’t what part you get its what you do with it that counts. It is expecting much not having little that causes grief.

    I’m going to have to blog on this entire thread.

    There are two things going on.

    First, is exactly what Claudia said, we are here to react to what we have. Nothing we get in this life is that great. It seems like it, but what struck me about Versailles when I visited it with my wife (and yes, I’m still amazed that it was cheaper to go to Paris for a week than to a discount hotel in San Francisco, luck is everything) was that I’m happier with my home that I would be to live in a large, rather tacky structure like that one, with vermin and without central heat or air.

    My diet is better, my food more palatable, my work more stable.

    As I noted then, if heaven is just 200-300 years ahead of us technologically, then it is already better than we can really imagine, in ways that we are missing (they didn’t take hot showers every morning and did not know what they were missing).

    Second, and this is very important, I really think that in many ways we are more like characters in a game played by our immortal selves. I’ve played a fair number of simulations (I worked in the industry at one point, a long time ago). While I don’t fancy sleeping in the mud, I had characters who did. I think that from the perspective of immortals who have been sentient a very long time, human experience is different than it is from our perspective, within the veil.

    Is any of life really necessary for any particular person? Think of all the newborns who have died, obviously it is not.

    Having a human species is necessary, so that God doesn’t have to restart the human race every generation to allow us to be born, but within that structure as long as the society is not too corrupted, God is patient.

    (What does that say about the importance of the Church, beyond some technical issues of having it around in order to promulgate keys and such — obviously it isn’t that important to any one person either, regardless of its significance on a structural level).

    As to

    I really doubt if someone’s up there going, “oh that AIDS victim on drugs just got pregnant. I’ll go!!” or “Wow, that psychotic child abuser and her drunken sexual predator husband need another addition to their family. Count me in!”

    I know genres of games where people play situations like that (Life with Master comes to mind, where people play a game that consists of being Igor in the Frankenstein movies — the abused lab assistants. I was amazed at how popular the game is. Not my cup of tea, or I’d be famous as the author, but surprisingly popular.

    Or Dogs in the Vineyard where much of the dynamic comes from the way people are bent and bruised by overcoming evil. I’d have never thought of the game mechanics (which is what makes the game popular).

    I suspect that in the hereafter, people are going to go “oh, you did what? So plain vanilla? Well, i guess someone had to” to many of us. I know that the things I’ve been through are just a part of normal life for many. Joseph Smith buried six children, I’ve buried only three.

    Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — January 12, 2008 @ 7:40 pm

47. Do you think God can control whether someone develops Alzheimer’s disease? Or whether God will protect you on your way home tonight so that you don’t crash your car and lose your ability to think and act for yourself? If you don’t think God can control these things, then why do we pray? Why do we ask God to protect us?

    Excellent point. I have had God protect me. I’ve been kicked in the face hard enough to stop forward momentum and lift me up backwards (a little accident with a black belt). Not even a bruise.

    Or the time I got careless and picked up burning metal, thinking it was burning plastic (metal conducts heat much differently than plastic) and could actually hear words telling me not to be so careless, along with the impression I was going to get a slight burn where I’d remember it but it wouldn’t get in the way.

    Or visiting with a family on my mission who were engaged with the Church because their next door neighbor had given him a blessing right before he was scheduled for an amputation. The probes had shown that the bedsores were clear through to the bone. He got discharged with only clean skin and no smell (bed sores stink worse than anything I can name).

    The real problem is not the miracles, but when they don’t happen. It is easy to understand a God who doesn’t intervene at all, or one who intervenes like a robot, but a God who isn’t tame, that is a God that is harder to deal with and to respond to.

    Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — January 12, 2008 @ 7:47 pm

48. The real problem is not the miracles, but when they don’t happen.
    Stephen, oh my, that one goes right to the heart, cutting deeply. Exactly. Why did Elizabeth Smart get to come home when so many other girls are buried? Why are some healed and some are not?

    Comment by Jo — January 12, 2008 @ 7:56 pm

49. #14 - Better late than never, even though some have already said it better than I could. I don’t think I did miss the point. I believe God allows us to suffer pain. That is not the same as purposefully putting us in situations with pain. Allowing us to fall off the bike is not the same as being pushed.

    #23 Re: “I’m still uncomfortable with the notion that God chose those evils for that individual.” I’m aware ECS finds this unconvincing, (and I’d like to know why.) God choosing those evils is not the same as God allowing those evils. He has to allow us our agency. That includes the agency of those around the situation. That even includes the agency of the child molester. It sounds as if you’re saying “I want my agency, but I don’t want that agency to affect anyone else.” It can’t work that way. You can’t have agency in a bubble. If what you did had no consequence, even on others’ lives, it would not truly be agency. Part of agency is having to suffer the consequences of what you do. Part of maturity and becoming like Heavenly Father is realizing that we are all interdependent.

    Maybe you’re saying “I want agency, but only the agency I feel is appropriate.” Again, you can’t have true agency and place restrictions on it like that. That pain is part of the whole kit of this plan. Why do you think Satan was able to draw so many of God’s completely cognizant children away? Yet, despite all the pain that comes with the Plan, we shouted with joy to hear of it. Figuring out why we shouted with joy is one of the great mysteries of God, in my opinion.

    I think Alas’ thoughts have something to do with the truth of it, too.

    #40 - “I have a hard time with the notion that God would countenance the suffering of some in order to teach other people lessons.” That is why becoming like God is such a journey for us. Our thoughts are not His, neither are His ways like ours. We have been warned of that. That is why trusting Him can be so difficult. The only real thing we have to go off of is His love, and for so many of us, Love in this life is a double-edged sword. It takes a lot to overcome our fear and realize that His love is everything you could hope for, and though it allows pain, it comes with no desire for it.

    I find this interesting because it seems to tie in with some things I have recently learned about God and my relationship with Him. There comes a point when you can’t control everything, and just have to trust that it is all in God’s hands somehow, even if you don’t understand how or why.

    Comment by SilverRain — January 12, 2008 @ 8:40 pm

50. To ECS #31
    I know that there have been times in my life where I have been protected while driving. I’ve had times where I’ve been nervouse to drive (rain, snow) and I’ve prayed the whole way home. When I got home safe, I wasn’t sure how, but it happened. I also know that when I was in one accident (not my fault), I had prayed over which route to take home. I felt strongly that the route I took was okay. Didn’t stress about running yellow lights or speeding or anything like that. I was hit head on. However, I was okay. Not a broken bone or anything. There was a car right behind driving right behind me that wasn’t as strong a car as mine and the drivers were both much older. I hate to think what would have happened if they had been hit instead of me. If I was supposed to be in the accident to save them, I’ll gladly take that accident. The second accident I was in (again not my fault) I was nervous the whole ride home. I felt nervous about leaving work when I did. I guess what I’m saying is that if we listen, and it’s supposed to be, God can protect us when we pray. He can help us to be more alert and aware and not cause accidents. However, he can’t stop the stupid drunk from getting behind the wheel and driving home. That’s free agency. And if we choose not to listen to him, he can’t protect us from that either.

    Comment by Tonya — January 12, 2008 @ 9:21 pm

51. Stephen M (Ethesis) said (#47):
    

    It is easy to understand a God who doesn’t intervene at all, or one who intervenes like a robot, but a God who isn’t tame, that is a God that is harder to deal with and to respond to.

    Perhaps part of the reason things are left so open to interpretation is to present us with a more level playing field as we choose whom we will serve. We can choose Christ and exercise our faith in the goodness of God even though there are many reasons why one could deny that goodness.

    Tonya (#50), I, too have had many instances when I felt the Lord intervened to protect me or loved ones. There have also been times when He has not, but He has always helped me to deal with the sad consequences of my own agency, or that of others, or even the vagaries of normal mortal existence.

    SilverRain has dealt beautifully with several aspects of how I believe agency works (comment #49). I agree with all the points she made.

    In my case, pride in my own mortal reasoning power was at one time a huge barrier to my belief in a beneficent God. Fortunately, I finally recognized that was a good thing that, as SilverRain put it, Our thoughts are not His, neither are His ways like ours. I came to believe that God really did know what He was doing when he designed our mortal probation.

    When we can accept that God isn’t “tame,” (I really like that term!), and that we probably won’t get the final answers to many of our questions in this life, we can decide that we love Him anyway, trust that He knows what is going on in this world, and that His promises about the eventual triumph of good over evil her on earth will all be fulfilled. We can also trust that we will receive comfort as we struggle through life’s challenges, and that our suffering (or that of others) is not in vain.

    Comment by RoAnn — January 12, 2008 @ 9:32 pm

52. Re: SilverRain (#49),

    It sounds as if you’re saying “I want my agency, but I don’t want that agency to affect anyone else.” It can’t work that way.

    Hmm. I might be not be explaining my thoughts very clearly (which is quite possible!), but I’m actually rather baffled as to how you got that from my comment. I wasn’t making an argument about agency; I was objecting to is any notion that God is somehow complicit in evil (for example, that he deliberately places individuals in situations where they will suffer horrific things because that suffering is somehow part of his master plan.)

    If what you’re saying is that suffering is a byproduct of agency, and God allows the former because of the importance of the latter, I’d agree with that. Though I don’t think an appeal to agency entirely resolves the problems posed by the existence of evil–we’re still left with the problems of God’s seemingly erratic intervention (as mentioned by Stephen in #49) and the problem of the evil in the world which isn’t a result of human agency.

    Also, I find the “God’s ways are not our ways” response to be unpersuasive. I’m quite willing to concede that my own understanding is profoundly limited, and I could doubtless stand to remember that more often. But if what we mean when we say that God is “good” or God is “loving” has no connection at all to our human sense of the terms (because his ways are so different from ours), then it becomes meaningless to assert that God is good, or God is loving. Augustine (to give just one example) used just such an argument (”we can’t understand God’s ways”) to explain why God damned unbaptized babies, even though such an action seemed unfair and even horrific to human sensibilities. I don’t think it’s an adequate answer. If we encounter teachings which suggest that God is engaging in behavior which appears morally reprehensible to us, I think it’s legitimate to question the truth of those teachings–at least, if we want to maintain that God is good.

    Comment by Lynnette — January 12, 2008 @ 10:12 pm

53. Thank you, 52, for ye have brought me revelation. OK, not really, but an interesting thought came to mind reading about the unbaptized babies thingy. Before I joined the church, the doctrine of most churches that unbaptized peoples shall burn in the fires of hell and what-not bugged me a bit. It seemed a tad unfair. Then along comes the church, modern-day revelation, and-presto-baptisms for the dead, problem solved-IF we do our bit. Maybe this question, most questions of Faith in fact, is like that: we just don’t have all the answers…yet. Why else have a prophet, if he’s not here to answer questions like this for us? In the meantime, we pray, and fast, and help what we see as unfairness as we can. Because, really, debating the nature of God solves very little in the end, but trusting that He can help us all make a difference, well, now, that’s a whole other story, right?This is ramble-y (but heartfelt) sorry.

    Comment by McMommy — January 12, 2008 @ 10:34 pm

54. I really need to read this whole thread, Becky, because I feel like you’re voicing a question I’ve had a million times myself. i too tend to just skip over points in a lesson that I do not believe (yet, if ever). And I too am curious if this bit or that bit is really doctrine, or just something slipped in. Such a bind. I suppose this is one good thing about being in the nursery!

    Comment by fMhLisa — January 12, 2008 @ 10:47 pm

55. This scripture came to mind after reading these posts:

    And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackenss, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good. The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than He?

    There it is, straight from the horses mouth, so to speak. I can’t think of anything that sounds more like the mouth of hell gaping open than child prostitution or some of the other things mentioned. And right here God says that even something that awful is for our experience and good.

    I believe that we did choose much of what would happen to us. I think specifics are nigh unto impossible because of others’ agency. I also think that many of us may have been a little over excited. I am pretty sure that I was all gung ho about the idea and had an “I can face anything” attitude, because that is a lot what I am like now. I don’t think our personalities change much. Because of the very nature of agency, I think God allowed us to choose where and when we wanted to go, and then let us live with the consequences of our choices. Perhaps it was a guided choice, I’m sure He gave us a lot of advice and warnings and whatever else, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the final decision was up to us.

    Comment by Sarah S. — January 12, 2008 @ 11:05 pm

56. Rebecca asks,

    “Does anyone know of any quotes by prophets saying the same kind of thing as the quote from the lesson? (Is it really doctrine?)”

    I believe the following paragraph qualifies.  It is found in “Doctrines of the Gospel” (Student Manual, Religion 430 and 431, 2004, p.56).  It is from a general conference talk given by Harold B. Lee while he was serving as Church President:

    “All these rewards were seemingly promised, or foreordained, before the world was.  Surely these matters must have been determined by the kind of lives we had lived in that premortal spirit world.  Some may question these assumptions, but at the same time they will accept without any question the belief that each one of us will be judged when we leave this earth according to his or her deeds during our lives here in mortality.  Isn’t it just as reasonable to believe that what we have received here in this earth life was given to each of us according to the merits of our conduct before we came here?”  (Ensign, Jan. 1974, p.5.)

    Comment by R. Gary — January 12, 2008 @ 11:33 pm

57. “I have a hard time with the notion that God would countenance the suffering of some in order to teach other people lessons.”

    Sadly, and verily because mortality bites, this is EXACTLY how he taught the biggest lesson he ever taught: Jesus on the Cross. If we don’t learn THAT lesson we’re all screwed.

    Would I rather be tortured to death or watch my child be tortured to death? My hand would be up so fast my hair would melt. But I’d still not really enjoy the torture.

    Comment by hero — January 13, 2008 @ 12:03 am

58. Ok, I put up my post on the problem of evil and referenced some of this discussion. I’ve been meaning to put it up for some time so thanks for the inspiration Rebecca.

    Comment by Geoff J — January 13, 2008 @ 1:16 am

59. R. Gary,

    The doctrine Harold B. Lee espouses is one that also lent itself to the notion that blacks were somehow neutral in the war in heaven and thus deserved their lot. I personally believe that that particular bit of folklore has been discredited and so I would be cautious in embracing its parent doctrine.

    What I find most curious are the implications of the doctrine you cite. I think that it would say a lot more about the pre-existence than is currently believed, viz., that it was a place of testing where our merits could be ascertained. Is that what we believe? The general view in the church seems to be that the only pre-mortal test had a binary outcome: choose Jesus or choose Lucifer. Do you believe there were varying degrees of valiance, and if so, can you disentangle it from the defunct Negro doctrine?

    This would make better sense if Mormons believed in karma and reincarnation. The thing I dislike about that eastern concept is that it seems to serve the caste system. After all, you can easily ignore the untouchables if you think they “deserve” their fate.

    One other thing to think about: if you do believe in a pre-mortal judgement, who’s to say that we are the good guys?

    All in all, I think it’s a doctrine — if it is a doctrine — that serves very little purpose. The fact is, we are all God’s children and we all have an equal right to freedom and happiness. We have no idea what the pre-mortal world was like.

    Having said all this, I do think the passage in Abraham about the noble and great ones deserves some thought. But I would be reluctant to assume that just because I’m a healthy, wealthy, white, active Mormon male living in the west, I am somehow “noble and great” and thus had the lottery of life rigged in my favour. At this point in my journey, the truth or not in that statement has little bearing on where I’m headed.

    Comment by Ronan — January 13, 2008 @ 3:30 am

60. #52 - “we’re still left with the problems of God’s seemingly erratic intervention” And that’s what it boils down to, isn’t it? That it seems erratic because we don’t know everything about a situation. Parents’ actions can seem awfully erratic and arbitrary to a two-year-old, too. We have to trust that it isn’t erratic - that He has a reason for what He does, and that it is a reason we will some day comprehend.

    #52 - “If we encounter teachings which suggest that God is engaging in behavior which appears morally reprehensible to us, I think it’s legitimate to question the truth of those teachings”

    Of course it is. That’s why he had James and Moroni write down that wonderful promise. If you need wisdom, ask Him and the Spirit will tell you. Even if your answer is “I can’t tell you now, but I love you and it will be okay,” you have been promised that you will have an answer. You just have to accept that such might be your answer and not try to force God to give you the answer you want.

    Comment by SilverRain — January 13, 2008 @ 6:55 am

61. hero (#57)- Thanks for writing what I’ve been thinking. I’ve often pondered HF allowing his only begotten to suffer in such an unimaginable way for the benefit of us. Why? Because He could not do it for us, or I’m sure He would have. Who could look at a beloved child in extreme pain and not cry out, “Let the pain be mine instead!”

    Which brings me to ECS (#44 )
    “Either you have the power to control an event or you don’t. I’ve heard theories that God must work within natural laws, but I don’t buy this because these theories elevate laws above God.”

    Of course natural laws are outside of God. How else would He have progressed? If you are uncomfortable with saying that these laws are “above God”, then say they are “outside of God”. They are the truths and the frameworks of all existence. They are not created nor can they be uncreated. God is exalted because He has perfect knowlege and works in perfect harmony with these principles or laws. This is why a Savior had to be sent for us. If God controlled the laws of justice and mercy, He wouldn’t have sent his beloved Son for such an ordeal.

    Comment by sofia — January 13, 2008 @ 12:39 pm

62. What I find most curious are the implications of the doctrine you cite. I think that it would say a lot more about the pre-existence than is currently believed

    After all, Alma talks about similar things as well, which I thought was surprising once I realized what it was he was saying (after a general authority pointed it out to me in response to a question at an Alphonso Bedoya fireside).

    Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — January 13, 2008 @ 1:57 pm

63. I think of Christ’s promise that the first shall be last and the last first in the kingdom of God.

    Those of us who find ourselves to be “the first” in this life -good life, good homes, good country, etc- will find ourselves damned for that position unless we use our resources to ameliorate the suffering of others. So a huge burden falls on those of us who are presently “well off.” “It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

    As for those who are presently the “last”, I believe AIDS victims and child prostitutes were mentioned -I think about this a lot so I’ll add child soldiers, rape victims, anyone tortured to death, neglected orphans etc. - I don’t believe anything in this life could justify their horrific suffering. I believe that Christ promises that they will become the first, their suffering acknowledged and recompensed by his atonement as comment #50 alluded to.

    Believing this I still feel uneasy since I too would expect the divine to intercede far more often than is apparent. It makes me think of Amulek in Alma chapter 14:
    10 And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scen? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.
    11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

    Thanks for bringing up the topic. I’m interested in what everyone else think.

    Comment by Just Katy — January 13, 2008 @ 2:25 pm

64. Ok, because I am a complete stud, I asked my amazing Gospel Principles teacher about this particular issue with the maual. And he totally knew, Yea! So scripture references Acts 17:25 and Abraham 3:22-25 say that HF knew us all before the Earth was created, and that he knew where and when we would be born. Abraham goes on to imply that those that he had marked for particular and/or difficult jobs were told about it in the pre-existence.
    So, I guess it is doctrine, and not even doctrine peculair to the LDS church. Although, now that I think about it, I’m not sure why we all have such a hard time believing that some souls would choose hardship in this life for the sake of others. After all, isn’t that kind of sacrifice the reason for our church? Christ chose untold torment for all of us.

    Comment by McMommy — January 13, 2008 @ 3:23 pm

65. This is such a fascinating topic . . . I was always taught (in church and in my family) that we Mormons had large families to give homes to as many spirits as possible. By that logic, then, if we don’t give these spirits a home, they’ll go somewhere else - possibly somewhere worse, possibly somewhere downright horrible. But this doesn’t jive with this idea that God knows exactly where and when each one of us will be born. The two ideas are simply not reconcilable. My head explodes when I try to make them work together.

    The idea that God knows the time of our deaths is equally problematic for me. My father recently said, “Heavenly Father has a time appointed for all of us.” Well, when viewed from an historical context, that simply does not make sense. So, people born 2000 years ago were only supposed to live to be 40 or 50? Why? People born 6000 years ago were supposed to live 900-odd years (assuming we accept a literal translation of the OT)? Again, why? I don’t believe God does anything without a reason - so either God has no say in this, or we should be able to determine the reason.

    Comment by Quimby — January 13, 2008 @ 4:15 pm

66. There seem to be some different questions here. One is the existance of evil. Why is there evil on this earth that isn’t just about our free agency. Why does God allow someone to get altzheimers? Why does he “send” a tidal wave to helpless villagers? Why are babies born with horrible deformities?

    We live in a fallen world. There is evil that is not human caused, earthquakes, rain that doesn’t come and leaves people starving, and other horrible disasters, because Adam and Eve made a choice to live in THIS world rather than the Garden of Eden. It is part of the world we live in. I think it is amazing that God EVER intervenes. Because this world is fallen, things happen. Sh*t happens.

    I don’t understand why sometimes our Heavenly Father prevents the bad things from happening. Perhaps to show us that he loves us. I mean, if he never intervened, we might feel justified in feeling very deserted. I think there are times that he comforts us, and other times that he doesn’t comfort us, but leaves us alone in the suffering. I don’t know why sometimes he does and sometimes he doesn’t. But I have gone through things, and he just plain wasn’t there. In fact I am in one of them now. I pray and it is like no one answers the phone. Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring until I just give up and think maybe I’ll try another time. Why does he answer some prayers and ignor others? Well, when you figure out how to make an eagle fly and set the stars in their course, then you can talk to him about why he lets some people suffer and gives others protection or comfort. That was what he told Job. When you can make the eagle fly and set the stars in their course, then I will explain things to you about why I allow suffering to come to some people and protect others.

    God does know what kind of condition that children get born into. So, OBVIOUSLY he allows it to happen. I think saying that we get some choice is better than saying God just shoves us into a horrible situation against our will. I just can’t accept that view of God. And of course I sometimes feel “NO WAY did I chose this.” But then I look back on when I was in college. There was one professon in my major who was HARD. He demanded twice what the others professors did. I singed up for everything he taught. Then I cused and griped about how hard he was and wondered why I did it. But next semester, I signed up for him again because I learned more from him that the other professors.

    Haven’t y’all ever said Yes to a calling and then when you were into it felt like you should have said not only no, but H*** no. Well, I have and so I know very well that we agree to things to please God and then wonder how stupid we can be because it is harder than we thought. If I can do that with Releif Society president, I sure could have done it with this life.

    I also disagree with the idea expressed that some lives are “vanilla” or remedial. Being born into a cushy life is its own kind of challenge. I can’t say it is harder or easier—just different. So, for those whose problems seem small, maybe your challenges are in the future, or maybe it is to see if you help others from your abundance. The test is what we do with what we are given. NOT what we are given.

    It is horrible that people came up with excuses using the pre-existance to justify racial prejudice. But that doesn’t mean that the idea of who were were in the pre-existance making a difference in our earth life is totally bogus. Misguided people put a value judgement on the valiance of blacks in the pre-existande. That value judgment was incorrect.

    This is why it is so important not to use any thing we are gussing about the pre-existance to judge people. Not the ones with a chushy life being blessed for being valiant, or the ones with hard lives being stronger. Judge not. Our tests may be different, but God is going to make them fair.

    Comment by alas — January 13, 2008 @ 4:35 pm

67. Re: the reincarnation idea occasionally kicked around in this thread.

    If we could perfect ourselves, no matter how many lifetimes it took, then there would have been no need for the Saviour.

    And anyway, my gut-level reaction to the idea of reincarnation is “No loving God could ask me to do this again.” Seriously. There’s lots of things I love about my life but once is enough.

    I agree most with the comment in #24. I like how alas’s idea of our births being callings that we can choose or refuse meshes with both the idea of free agency and fore-ordination.

    Comment by Proud Daughter of Eve — January 13, 2008 @ 8:23 pm

68. I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I have to respond to ECS’s #29:

    “Either God is impotent or he is a sadist.”

    EXACTLY! That’s exactly what I’ve thought since my sister died. (And no, not because she died, but because of the spiritual fast I’ve gone through while she was sick and since she died, how I feel the Lord just up and deserted me.)

    Recently we all here on FMH were talking about if God is a “puppet master” which I would have never admitted to believing, but after seeing the discussion that unfolded, I guess that’s what I had always thought. But now I figure that either the Lord is a deity that can do things in my life (a puppeteer) or He can’t, and then are we to worship him because He created us, but no other reason? If he isn’t a puppet master, doesn’t that make us deists? Why ask for anything if He isn’t this puppeteer who will act in our lives?

    Okay, I read all the comments . . . and I still agree with ECS. And let me say I didn’t always feel this way, I had a very strong testimony (or I thought so!). I’m just currently on the fence about a lot of things.

    Comment by TAG — January 13, 2008 @ 11:32 pm

69. For 11 years I have prayed the same prayer-that the Lords blessing to my daughter that she would be healed would come to pass.In that time not only has she not recovered but I now also suffer from the same illness and now my 11 year old son has fallen sick with it.I dont understand -but I want to,and figure that all things considered,I should give God the benefit of the doubt.
    I can conceptualise our situation in many ways,and in my pain often rail against God.But some ways of thinking about this are more constructive than others,and I get to choose how I conceptualise my circumstances.
    God said”we will prove them now herewith’,speaking of creation.’the darkness comprehended it not ’speaking of Gods work.
    I have come to believe that God has no hand in causing our suffering,but that nevertheless he allows it in order to fulfill his own purposes’the immortality and eternal life of man’-that we dont have to understand but to ‘bow beneath the rod’Not that we are being punished but that we are learning to share in the nature of Deity as we suffer for our childrens pain or alongside our brethren and sisters as we strive to alleviate suffering.
    God has no part in evil,only in accomplishing his purposes through Satans abuse of his agency.
    I cant engage with the idea that I chose this pain-I’m too ill.
    I refute the idea that my daughter or son chose their pain.
    We were just in the way of a particular virus and had a genetic predisposition to it.No-one to blame,it just is.We have to find a way to get through each day as positively,kindly and faithfully as possible.God loves me and my children far more than I can-I choose to believe this as being the most constructive option all round.there is a big picture and I have no notion of it,but I deeply believe in a benevolent God and hope one day to watch His universe unfold with him as it is no doubt doing at this moment.
    I have not created God,and cannot define Him.He is truly not ‘the tame God’ I would have created.

    Comment by wayfarer — January 14, 2008 @ 1:12 pm

70. And thankyou all fro being the sweet and questioning souls that you are-I need your company.

    Comment by wayfarer — January 14, 2008 @ 1:15 pm

71. Wayfarer,
    I think what is important for you is to feel the Heavenly Father loves you and that he does not want you to be suffering any more than you want your children to be suffering.

    I really do understand the feeling that there is no way you would have choosen this pain. I guess I have a lot more perspective on my pain than you can have on yours right now. I am out of the pain, so I can look back on it and see what I have learned. I can use the memoriy of my pain to comfort others in theirs. You are not there, and won’t be for a long time. Maybe not in this life.

    I think your attitude that you were just in the path of a virus is good. That is the truth. God didn’t “send” you the virus, it is just part of this earth.

    I think what I am saying is that when we came to earth, we knew it was a fallen earth with sickness, disasters, evil, and all kinds of horrors and pain we would have to go through. We know we agreed to that much. And like you, I can’t see any way I would have agreed to watch my children suffer from some painful sickness. I just can’t see it from my perspective. I don’t know how many details we knew when we agreed to accept a birth assignment. I don’t think that God knows “all things” because if he knows 100%, then what is the purpose of this earth? I think perhaps we agreed to possibilities. Like a bishop accepts a calling to be bishop. He doesn’t know if he is going to be conducting funerals or excommunicating ward members, or exactly what he is going to be doing. But he has an idea about the possibilities.

    Like I know there is a possibility that my children might die early of a disease that runs in families and my BIL died of. They may have that same heridity. Does that possibility keep me from marrying my husband? Does that possibility keep me for having children? Would the possibility have kept me from this earthly life assignment? Knowing what I know now, it is a hard choice. If I had known my husband carried genes for this disease, would I have married him, or would I have tried to fall as much in love with someone else? It is the same kind of question about what we knew in the pre-existence. We really don’t know how much we knew.

    For me, I think I knew there were possibilities of abuse. But I don’t think it was something God told me would happen, because where is my father’s free agency in that.

    Comment by alas — January 14, 2008 @ 1:58 pm

72. Again, why? I don’t believe God does anything without a reason - so either God has no say in this, or we should be able to determine the reason.

    You think you should be able to determine the reason in this life? Or are we entitled to the answers, eventually, once our eyes have been opened to the perspective veiled from us.

    (a) God is omnipotent.
    (b) God is omniscient.
    (c) God chooses to intervene when He feels it meets his purposes.

    That’s my perspective, and nothing that my family has experience or anything I’ve learned in or out of the temple teaches me different.

    Some might call that “sadism”. Devil’s advocate question: So what? (I’m not sure that the definition applies, but let’s play with it.) So what if God’s approach is construed by our limited understanding to be sadism? Maybe God is sadist, sexist, and plays favorites. Does it make his plan less valid? Do you have another plan of salvation you’d prefer to follow? Could it simply be that your eyes aren’t opened yet to an understanding of how it really works?

    Comment by queuno — January 14, 2008 @ 7:57 pm

73. “has experienced”, not “has experience”

    Comment by queuno — January 14, 2008 @ 7:58 pm

74. queuno, what I’m saying is really less black and white than you seem to think. I’m not demanding to know the answers; but if we accept that God works through natural laws, and if we accept that God is pretty much a rational guy (that is, that he has a reason for taking a course of action), and if we accept that God made us in his image, it stands to reason that we should be able to come up with logical explanations. I’m not saying it has to be all at once; but really, what I’m talking about is fairly arbitrary - why was Metheusalah some 900-odd years when he died (assuming we accept the OT as a definitive source on this) and why, a few thousand years later, was the average life-span 30 or 40 years? Was there a reason? If not, doesn’t it stand to reason that God had nothing to do with it at all, that it’s all very arbitrary, that it just is? Is it harder to accept a God who micromanages or a God who is hands-off? I don’t know; just thinking out loud.

    Comment by Quimby — January 14, 2008 @ 8:05 pm

75. I really like this post, Rebecca. The afterlife is frequently invoked to defuse the problem of evil; for Mormons, the premortal life can equally be invoked to explain apparent inequities in this life, but not without problems that leave me, like you, more than a little uncomfortable.

    Queuno, maybe the question to ask is: if God is, by our standards, immoral, is it moral for us to obey him? Do Mormon ethics require a complete renunciation of the conscience?

    Comment by Kiskilili — January 14, 2008 @ 8:12 pm

76. This discussion brought to mind some of the comments shared by the Stake President at my mother’s funeral when I was struggling to understand why, why, oh why did she have to die? Why wasn’t she healed? How could she be needed more on the other side than she was needed so here on earth?

    Here are some of the quotes by church leaders that he shared, which brought me comfort.

    First, by Melvin Ballard

    I remember, on entering a carpet factory, I first saw the back of the carpet. I went around to the other side; the carpet was the same but the appearance was different. On this side was the design, the color, and flower, all being worked out, and produced by the same method of operation. We have often looked upon things from the reverse side. We have not understood God’s dealings with us as individuals, nor with His Church, nor with the affairs of the world; but when we possess the key-the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, that searches all things, that takes of the things of the Father and reveals them to us, and enables us to unlock the apparent mysteries that surround us-we shall look upon the design of our lives, the design God has concerning us, concerning His Church, and concerning the nations of the earth

    Another quote was by Spender W. Kimball who said,

    If we looked at mortality as the whole of existence, then pain, sorrow, failure, and short life would be calamity. But if we look upon life as an eternal thing stretching far into the premortal past and on into the eternal post-death future, then all happenings may be put in proper perspective. If all the sick for whom we pray were healed, if all the righteous were protected and the wicked destroyed, the whole program of the Father would be annulled and the basic principle of the gospel, free agency, would be ended. No man would have to live by faith.

    And by Orson F. Whitney

    No pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted. It ministers to our education, to the development of such qualities as patience, faith, fortitude and humility. All that we suffer and all that we endure, especially when we endure it patiently, builds up our characters, purifies our hearts, expands our souls, and makes us more tender and charitable, more worthy to be called the children of God . . . and it is through sorrow and suffering, toil and tribulation, that we gain the education that we come here to acquire and which will make us more like our Father and Mother in heaven.

    Comment by patti — January 14, 2008 @ 11:26 pm

77. Ronan,

    The LDS Church clearly teaches that God “has chosen the time and place for each of us to be born so we can learn the lessons we personally need and do the most good with our individual talents and personalities.”

    The Sunday School Gospel Principles course “is for investigators and others who want basic gospel instruction.”  (See “Curriculum 2005 through 2008,” at LDS.org.)  The Gospel Principles course manual is an approved resource for Melchizedek Priesthood and Relief Society First-Sunday lessons.  It is for “investigators, the newly baptized, those returning to activity, and those who may need or desire a stronger understanding of basic gospel principles.” (Ensign, Mar. 1993, p. 80.)

    In her discussion opener, Rebecca quoted the last sentence of a short three paragraph secion titled “We Developed Personalities and Talents While We Lived in Heaven.”  Those three paragraphs read as follows:

    The scriptures teach us that the prophets prepared themselves to become leaders on earth while they were still spirits in heaven (see Alma 13:1–3).  God foreordained (chose) them to be his leaders on earth before they were born into mortal bodies. Jesus, Adam, and Abraham were some of these leaders.  (See Abraham 3:22–23.)  Joseph Smith taught that everyone who has a calling to lead people on earth in the Church was foreordained to do so (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 365).  However, everyone is free on earth to accept or reject the calling.

    We were not all alike in heaven.  We were given different talents and abilities, and we were called to do different things on earth.  (See Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 51.)  We can learn more about our talents and callings when we receive our patriarchal blessings (see Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye in Holy Places, p. 117).

    Even though we have forgotten, our Father in Heaven remembers who we were and what we did before we came here (see Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 50).  He has chosen the time and place for each of us to be born so we can learn the lessons we personally need and do the most good with our individual talents and personalities.

    When I read statements of doctrine in a basic and fundamental Church doctrine manual, I read those statements as statements of doctrine.  And when I read statements made by Church Presidents in general conference that are subsequently quoted in an Institute manual titled “Doctrines of the Gospel,” I read those statements as statements of doctrine.

    In this case, you are free to disagree with the doctrine, but you can’t claim the Church doesn’t teach it.

    Comment by R. Gary — January 15, 2008 @ 12:24 am

78. sort of on the same line . . .

    Does someone know the quote from (I believe) Ezra Taft Benson that says something like we made promises to do certain things on earth, we don’t remember those promises, but we’re accountable to those promises?

    Comment by TAG — January 15, 2008 @ 12:58 pm

79. Since agency is such an important doctrine, I would dare say we had some input and knowledge of where we would be born. Life is mortality, full of pain, and heartache. I don’t understand why some people are given other challenges and trials, and weaknesses and why are others given different ones.
    God is who he is because of his obedience to Laws. That is why we a have a Saviour. He is there to take ALL of our Sorrow, and pain on his shoulders. Not just our sins, but the sorrow and pain of others who sins effect us. If we truly believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ we must accept that he HAS done this for US. Does the fact that I live in a nice home, take away any of the sorrow I have? Is it right to minimize my trials because someone else may have trials that SEEM to be harder to bear? I know I am often depressed because I FEEL GUILTY about having such a blessed life. That is is wrong. Christ suffered for me as surely as he suffered for you. When all is said and done, all will know the great gift he has given, no matter if we were raised in a country of famine, or a home of sexual abuse.

    Comment by Tanya — January 18, 2008 @ 5:54 pm

80. 1. If you are born in Africa with AIDS and die at 2 years old, what a blessing to be able to return to God in the celestial kingdom for eternity with no further trials to endure. Those two years may be hell, but an existence of eternal bliss in the presence of God is a choice most of us would choose if we had that chance with such a small price to pay. I’m sure others will disagree, but this almost sounds merciful. It also sounds much easier than spending 80 years getting over our own problems and becoming obedient to God’s will - now that’s a tough life, especially if we are blessed with affluence and pride is in our lives.
    2. There are no trials on earth that cannot be overcome with the help and atonement of Jesus Christ. Some of us have to endure terrible things - molestation, abuse, famine, devistating illness etc. (Our family has been through all of these but famine.) When we suffer these things, we have two choices: turn towards God and seek his help, or turn away and curse him. I know from personal experience that ALL things can be overcome through the Redeemer of the world.
    3. If you lack wisdom ask of God. I had a hard time asking for knowledge in the past. I did not feel that I should ask because I felt I had already been told by others, the spirit burning in my heart, life experiences etc. But finally, when I got over my worldly “wisdom”, knelt down and prayed, I began to receive answers that only come from direct communication in sincere prayer to a loving and merciful father in heaven. It’s wonderful. So, if you ever struggle with doctrine, do as Joseph Smith did: read, ponder and pray. When we pray with a sincere heart, with real intent, we do receive greater light and knowledge. Me and my family are living proof to that!

    Peace be with you as you surround yourself with the love of God and his son, our Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Comment by Florida Boy — January 19, 2008 @ 6:44 am

81. Hi Rebecca,

    If I ever need an answer, I go straight to Our Heavenly Father, after all, he knows the answers to all our questiions. I am sure you are praying about it. Through the Spirit you will get the answers and comfort you need to feel confident to teach what you need to teach. If you teach with the Spirit, you cannot go wrong.

    I feel that some spirits want to return to Our Heavenly Father as quickly as possible and therefore are born in such a place like Africa with Aids for that to happen.

    Some like myself was born in an abusive family. It does not matter who chose for me to be born into my family, we cannot blame anyone but the abuser for his/her actions. It comes down to free agency and Heavenly Father respecting our choices. Most abusers were abused themselves, they know no other way and many are too weak to change.

    I was 18 when I joined the church and I was able to endure all the abuse that I suffered for almost 40 years. Only we can endure our own trials but this does not mean we can do it alone. Trials keep us humble enough to stay close to Our Heavenly Father.

    I sometimes wonder if I was close to my abuser and I am looking forward to knowing the answer to that one day and perhaps resume our friendship.

    Heavenly Father never makes mistakes and everything is for a purpose. We may not have all the answers right now, but one day we will understand, for now we must walk by FAITH.

    Good luck with the lesson. Your sister in the gospel, Anna Maria

    Comment by Anna Maria (UK) — June 12, 2008 @ 12:29 pm

82. I am responding to this post as someone who endured terrible abuse as a child. Sexual and other physical abuse that I won’t go into here.

    “He has chosen the time and place for each of us to be born so we can learn the lessons we personally need and do the most good with our individual talents and personalities”

    I truly believe this wholeheartedly. The trials we face are the trials we face. The atonement - and what Christ felt - doesn’t only cover those little cushy 21st century western sins - it covers the the whole gambit. If we believe in the Atonement, we must believe that people are in these situations *because* of the lesson to be learned and the good they can do. I don’t mean this in a callous way - a baby born with AIDS makes no sense to me. None whatsoever. But I also know that not everything *will* make sense to me until I move on from this life, and that I just need to take the rest on faith.

    Comment by Lisa — March 9, 2009 @ 2:15 pm

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