On Taking Sick Kids to Church
How sick is too sick? When does carting a kiddo to church stop being about refilling the spiritual fuel-tank (dumb metaphor, but then I’m tired) and more about convincing your congregation that you haven’t gone inactive? How sick does a kid need to be before we nix the church attendance in order to avoid passing along the ailment to all the other Mormons? Share and share alike doesn’t apply to influenza, but what about a mild cold?
It’s 7:30 and Muffin has been intermittetly up for two hours–which is representational of the last week, and the week before the week before that. Bodily effluvium everywhere. Fun times. Poor kid. But poor mommy too, because I’m dying for some adult interaction and I’d really love to take the sacrament. I just can’t decide if those desires are fair to Muffin or to other congregants, who undoubtedly don’t want baby coughs (so heartbreaking) interrupting their Sabbath worship.
So all you parents out there, how do you decide to stay or go? Colds just seem so . . . lukewarm. Of course, Muffin has displayed an inordinate fondness for televised Catholic Mass, the more Latin chanting the better. Maybe that’s gonna be church for the day.
…….
Here’s some parenting advice, since I mostly just ask for it from others: should your little adorable pastry awaken you hours prior to dawn’s pearly light, by all means do not stare at your bedraggled self in the mirror, conclude that a haircut would magically repair your exhaustion, and pick up the scissors. You will soon resemble the pre-makeover Jodi Foster from Candleshoe. Not good. Not good at all.
Haha! [About the haircut. Not the sick baby.]
As a parent, I’ve never been upset when other parents bring “just a cold” babies to church. Mostly because I know these babies aren’t going to be touching people and breathing on people like primary-aged children do. Also, I usually just go with the gut reaction. Stay? Go? Whichever one you have, go with it. Even if it means your ward thinks you’ve gone inactive.
Comment by cheryl — January 20, 2008 @ 9:08 am
if i know that my kids are contagious, i don’t take them. if they have a fever (or did have a fever that morning) i don’t take them.
my sister has a little boy that picks up sicknesses really easily, and my sister gets frustrated with people (mostly her SIL and BIL as they will always bring their kids to family gatherings even though one of the kids has pink eye or was throwing up an hour before) so she would probably say stay at home. but if he’s not old enough to go to nursery, than i wouldn’t worry about it too much. thats where the germ fest really is…..
and first thing tomorrow morning (if you cut your hair last night) go to a professional and have them help you. i never trust myself with cutting my own hair. my husband keeps telling me that he’ll cut my hair, but that answer is a big fat no. you should post a picture of the back of your head so we can all see.:)
Comment by Terina — January 20, 2008 @ 9:15 am
there is such a wide range of ages and health levels in church that if my kids were ever sick, even just the sniffles, i kept them home. what is just a little cold to my healthy child could swiftly turn to pneumonia for a preemie, an immune-compromised person, or the elderly. even young babies spread germs if they are coughing or if their snot or drool gets somewhere. i was always bothered a lot by people who brought sick kids to church and shared the wealth with everyone else, especially when i was immune-compromised. i say, keep him home, and if they really want to know if you are inactive, they can certainly make a quick telephone call to find out.
Comment by chandelle — January 20, 2008 @ 9:56 am
If they are a non-mobile infant with a feverless cold with only cold symptoms, I think they are fine, at least in sacrament meeting where they won’t be sharing baby toys or reaching out to other infants. Any mobile child (including crawling) with any cold symptoms, I keep them home. This is a hot topic for me. I do not understand why people (not you) feel like church is so important that exposing the rest of us to their ailment displays piety!
I also think it’s cultural. Why Americans go to school and work sick is beyond me! and give out awards at elementary school for perfect attendance all year? Gee–thanks for exposing the rest the kids to whatever you had, because what kid never gets sick, ever? (No need to share now how you didn’t ever get sick, I know such children exist–but rarer than official school reports. And why are they rewarding kids for not getting sick, or exposing all our kids attending sick?) end rant.
Comment by mami — January 20, 2008 @ 10:44 am
Also, when our kids are sick, my husband and I each go to half of church.
Comment by mami — January 20, 2008 @ 10:54 am
I say it is proably fine for you to go to sacrament. Take a side bench so no one can sit next to you and sit near a family with lots of loud kids (like mine) so no one will know who is coughing. I know there are days when just being near other adults is worth spreading a few sniffles (aren’t I selfish?)
Comment by Liz — January 20, 2008 @ 11:16 am
Well, I’m one of the ones who goes towards keeping my kids home if they’re sick. If it’s a tiny cough or sniffle, they go, but if there’s anything green or yellow coming out of the nose, anything gelatinous coming forth from a cough, any sore throat or fever or contagious achy feeling - they stay home! I really would get annoyed when kids would come and cough and sneeze all over my healthy kids and then a week later my own kids are sick. Take a day off!
The other thing (besides why one would take their sick kids to school or church) that puzzles me is when one kid stays home with dad and I have the other one and everyone is all perplexed on why I would leave him home just because he has a cold/fever/bronchiole infection/ etc.
Can Muffin stay home with Dad?
Comment by meems — January 20, 2008 @ 11:40 am
Nothing has annoyed me more lately than walking my son into nursery only to see a classroom full of snotty noses and coughing kids. Last week I’d had enough and he came to class with me. This week will be the same, though we’ll probably just come home. I’m glad parents with sick kids can get that two hour break ,but I have to deal with the whining and lack of sleep if he gets it from them.
Comment by jjohnsen — January 20, 2008 @ 11:44 am
As a former nursery leader, I never allowed in sick kids. Mildly clear runny noses ok. Nothing annoyed me more than a green snotty nose in church. Any doubts, keep ‘em home. Yeah, perfect attendance, big pet peeve. My youngest always picks up everything. When in contact with anything, down she goes.
Comment by polly — January 20, 2008 @ 12:10 pm
I have to agree with Mami (#4). When my children were young, I kept them home when they were sick. Mostly, it seemed kinder to the sick child and a good excuse to pamper her/him. Sometimes I would have an older child stay home with a sick younger one. That fostered some good sibling bonding and made both children happy (most of the time).
Now I am a grandma with a severely compromised immune system. I only go to Sacrament Meeting, sit apart from others and never shake hands. I have learned how to protect myself, so even if someone there is contagious (adult or child), it usually doesn’t affect me.
Comment by Catherine W. O. — January 20, 2008 @ 12:25 pm
Can Muffin stay home with Dad?
I second meems’ idea. The Conference Championships (football, not General) are today, and I know I always set a lower threshold of sickness for keeping my kids home during football season.
Comment by Ziff — January 20, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
I hate it when my kids get sick because someone was trying to prove they never miss church. Gah.
Generally, I would say a minor cold is fine, but anything more, please please please stay home. Or trade with dadddy- or take turns. Anything. But don’t expose us all to influenza, nasty URI’s, even nastier GI stuff, or other gucky winter stuff- and I promise to do the same.
Speaking of… we called a sitter today, becuase the kiddos are green and coughing, but DH has to talk today. We’re going- kids are not. I may enjoy today more than any Sunday in a long time!
Comment by tracy m — January 20, 2008 @ 12:54 pm
We are currently assigned to work in the ward nursery and the worst thing I ever see is a very runny nose. We have wipes for those and it’s not too big a deal.
If a kid is sick enough to be contagious (a serious cough, for example) or if the symptoms are serious enough (vomiting, diarrhea, etc.) then I would hope parents would be smart enough to keep the child home.
My wife is a pediatrician who works with sick kids all the time. She is hyper-careful to wash her hands constantly (even when working with healthy children) because she can’t afford to risk getting sick herself or to pass something along from a child to one of her patients.
Comment by danithew — January 20, 2008 @ 12:59 pm
If they are contagious, even w/ “just” a cold, keep them home. Going off of #3, my DD (age 2) has asthma, which flares up big time when she has a cold. Most of the time when she gets a cold, we are in the ER pronto on oxygen and steroids. We’ve been admitted twice to the hospital this past year. It is miserable for her and for our finances.
I don’t expect the world to keep its germs away from her, but if you have the option, keep her home!!! Sick kids are no fun and very sick kids (and adults!) are serious business. We are religious about washing hands and keeping her away from sick people as much as possible. (It is supposed to get a little better as she ages - fingers crossed!)
Oh, and don’t think that people won’t notice if your kid is sick. You’d better believe that other moms are tuned into who the sick kids are. I will keep DD out of nursery if I see another kid with a runny, green-snotted nose.
Comment by Belle — January 20, 2008 @ 1:55 pm
I say when in doubt, stay home. If you want to go for your own needs, can your husband stay home with her?
Comment by jeannine — January 20, 2008 @ 2:10 pm
Well, by quarter of nine Muffin seemed nearly free of his week-long cold symptoms (other than the ghastly hour of his awakening and the 10-15 times he got up in the night as well) so off to church we went. DH the doctor says kids aren’t contagious, generally, after a week of illness, and he didn’t have fever anymore, nor snot.
Muffin could not have been more pleased with this development. I plunked him down in his carseat for RS, fully intending to hold him as usual, but he was SO delighted to look at everyone (I sat in the front, with the seat facing the back) that I left him there. He’s a social kid and I’ve kept him home all week. He spent the *entire* hour flirting with older women: coo coo, wink, grin, giggle, etc.. Despite my warnings, everyone wanted to hold him between meetings.
And other than a 15-minute nap, he stayed awake until a few minutes ago–that’s 8 hours! All just to be social, so far as I can tell. Funny kid, but obviously feeling better. As am I.
Thanks, everyone, for the feedback and advice! For the record, DH would’ve adored staying home today, but he had to work. And he had to get up even before Muffin did!
Comment by Janet — January 20, 2008 @ 2:37 pm
As the parent of a micro preemie, I certainly appreciate it when parents keep their sick kids at home. Since cold season started, my husband and I have been playing tag team with who gets to go to church and to which meetings because our boys can’t last one week at church without getting sick. A simple cold for my preemie means a very possible hospital stay. My preemie is my second child, and I was much more relaxed about germs with my first–mostly because I didn’t care so much if my son got the occasional cold. Now, I’m more aware of others that may be more compromised by a simple cold. It’s a tough call sometimes, and a huge pain to stay home, but you never know who you may be helping (not get sick) by doing so.
Comment by Jenner — January 20, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
I like Polly’s rule of thumb. I think a occasional cough is fine, coughing your lungs out, not so fine. Mild runny nose, sure, really icky nose, probably not. NO fevers, not ever. I can’t even imagine someone doing that, it is beyond me. But we used to live in a ward with all young families and it was shocking what the parents would bring the kids to church with!
Comment by Jo — January 20, 2008 @ 3:05 pm
On the perfect attendance thing- it’s all about money. Schools get paid more if the kids show up all the time. So they work it so they reward people for coming.
Bad. The Almighty Dollar.
Comment by The Wiz — January 20, 2008 @ 3:56 pm
I think I keep my kids home more then anyone I know. In my opinion a good thing. A few weeks ago I got to church late (like every week) and a mom had just taken her child in the bathroom puking. There was throw up all down the hallway. I helped her clean up so she could go home ASAP. Imagine my surprise when I walked into primary and noticed her daughter still at church. Since she was in my son’s class can you guess who didn’t go to primary that day?
Comment by Vinca — January 20, 2008 @ 4:29 pm
I have a disabled son who is extremely susceptible to respiratory infections, so it frustrates me when people bring their contagious kids to church. My kids end up catching it at nursery and bringing it home to my son who often ends up with pneumonia and in the PICU. So, my disabled son stays home from church with a nurse every week to keep him healthy, but we definitely keep our other kids home when they are sick. My criteria are cough, fever, any kind of green mucus in any combination. Usually my husband and I trade off going to church. I totally understand your need for adult interaction, though, which is why sometimes I stay home and sometimes my husband does. (An added bonus to that: every once in a while you get a quiet sacrament meeting!)
Comment by Xena — January 20, 2008 @ 4:34 pm
I went to church with a cough/sore throat today (hanging my head in shame). I probably shouldn’t have gone, because I would have kept my kids home with the same symptoms. I’m usually really sensitive to other people coming sick because my daughter has asthma that flares up when she’s sick. She actually doesn’t get so sick anymore now that she’s four-and-a-half, but I’ve had experiences in the past where we’ve gone to church or family gatherings with kids that were “a little sick” and she’s ended up really sick later in the week. I’m not that concerned with little babies that are getting over a cold though, because they’re less likely to spread it around. I hate it when other kids show up sick. Besides obvious symptoms I usually try and decide if my kid is going to be a burden to the leaders. If they’re not going to want to particpate in class or need their nose wiped the whole time, no point in them going. The main reason why I did go today was because my daughter hates missing Primary and I knew she’d go nuts trapped in the house all day today (plus there’s a holiday tomorrow). I guess I should have just called a neighbor to take her.
Comment by FoxyJ — January 20, 2008 @ 5:26 pm
In nursery I was holding a sobbing kid (not my own) with a cold. Sobs can be quite forceful and I got my face splattered with snot. I told myself just laugh it off, laugh it off.
But like #13 I don’t think I’d have any kids in the nursery if a runny nose kept them out. A dry nose seems the rare exception this time of year. I’ve been amazed at how resilient and immune the kids seem to be. We keep a big bottle of Purel handy and I wash my hands with it regularly. I encourage the kids to use it too whenever they want.
My husband knew a couple who were doing nursery and a kid managed to get his diaper off and had an explosion on the floor. Ew.
Comment by Kate — January 20, 2008 @ 5:33 pm
FoxyJ, don’t be so hard on yourself. Unlike little kids, adults know enough to cough into their elbows, sanitize/wash their hands, and avoid the ubiquitous hand-shaking of the typical Mormon ward. Unless you were cavorting about spitting on people, you probably didn’t get anyone sick. Kids, on the other hands, think bodily fluids are fun things to share
Comment by Janet — January 20, 2008 @ 5:33 pm
The washing hands thing doesn’t fly with me. I don’t care how much Purel you use. Most germs this time of year are airborn.
Comment by mami — January 20, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
My mother was a nursery worker many years ago, and she LOVES to tell the story about the day the Joneses (not their real name ;)) dropped off their twin girls with CHICKEN POX and then disappeared. Since the parents couldn’t be found, my mom and the other nursery workers set the sick and contagious little girls up on a couple of mats off to the side of the room, and they slept for two hours straight.
Chicken pox? Seriously? Keep your kid home.
Comment by tisheli — January 20, 2008 @ 5:43 pm
Even if it’s just a cold, keep them home. I had a preemie son with reflux issues who looks perfectly normal and healthy. But for the first three years of his life, if he caught ‘just’ a cold, his reflux would flare up and I would be cleaning up vomit for a week or more.
If you really feel you need to take the sacrament, call your home teachers, who should be able to make arrangments to give it to you at your home, or have your husband stay home so you can go.
Comment by heather — January 20, 2008 @ 6:26 pm
mami–Out of curiousity I asked DH about what you said, especially since I catch stinking everything! He noted that you’re right in that there’s fluid droplets in coughs and sneezes, but we can mitigate that by making to use our elbows (or if we cough/sneeze into our hands, using the Purel). He also granted that there are some purely airborne, no fluid things going on but said washing our hands at this time of year is the single biggest thing we can do to prevent disease, if we need to be around people. I only add this so people don’t ditch the hand-washing because of the airborn factor. And if anyone ever does cure the common cold, I think they should get a Nobel. My peditrician says the average baby has 10 colds their first year of life. 10! Egads, that just stinks.
tisheli–that’s just horrid. Horrid. What di the parents do, run off for lunch? Geez. Poor kiddos.
And a futher update: now both me and DH have colds. Sigh. Hope I didn’t get anyone sick today, because I did shake hands a couple times. Rats.
Comment by Janet's Husband — January 20, 2008 @ 7:29 pm
Amen #8 and all the other like comments. The other thing I don’t understand about people taking sick kids to church (besides the oh-so-aggravating germ spreading and the need for perfect attendance or checking some righteous thing off their list or whatever) is what about the poor sick kids?? They get dragged around without thought for how they feel! If someone forced me to go to church if I were feeling crappy, I’d be seriously annoyed. Don’t people, kids included, prefer being in their jammies at home snuggled with a blanket or playing with their own toys?
I once saw a kid wrapped in a blanket in sacrament meeting, fever through the roof, and then throwing up before they took her home. Why? Why why why? It makes no sense.
Comment by Boquinha — January 20, 2008 @ 8:22 pm
Now that we’ve switched to 8:30 a.m. church, I think my assessment of whether or not my toddler is contagious is going to change quite a bit.
Comment by Chelsea — January 20, 2008 @ 8:37 pm
As the mom of 5 preemies, one of whom grew up immuno-compromised I developed the intestinal fortitude to be quite blunt with those who endangered my little darlings. I have delivered my microbiology lecture sweetly, rudely, firmly, shyly and angrily. My son’s asthma flared with the slightest cold and then he’d be back in PICU with a tube down his throat, which would aggravate the reflux again for weeks or months. It was a miserable spiral for years. I spent the bulk of my time for his first decade just keeping him alive. Eventually, a Catholic mom of a boy in my son’s occupational therapy group and I developed a symbiotic babysitting thing that lasted for years.
Like Jenner I became more aware of the great and terrible effect a trifling little cold could bring.
I seldom shake hands anymore. I broke my hand 12 years ago and learned to keep it safe in my pocket to avoid the pain. I still keep my hands to full to shake hands…quite easy to do with all the stuff I haul to church. My hand is fine now but I do it to avoid the germs. No one seems to mind since I make a point of smiling with eye contact.
Comment by another sister — January 20, 2008 @ 9:25 pm
I have a tremendous amount of sympathy for wanting adult interaction.
I will say though - I remember going to church sick a lot as a child - specifically throwing up in various ward buildings. I know many kids don’t necessarily seem sick and then all of a sudden they are….I just agree with the pp that it’s polite to err on the side of caution. Some clear runny noses are fine (I’m actually not sure there’s a time when one of my children does not have a runny nose) - but more than that, it’s just polite to keep them home to recuperate.
I think there is a lot of pressure (especially with callings) for parents and adults to be at church every Sunday.
Comment by aerin — January 20, 2008 @ 9:51 pm
Some caution about hand sanitizers and kids:
Most hand sanitizers (including Purell) contain a VERY high percentage of alcohol, which, if ingested by small children, can cause intoxication and even alcohol poisoning (http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/medical/a/hand_sanitizer.htm).
So please be careful about hand sanitizer in nursery settings and/or using it to keep your kids from getting sick–if they lick it off their hands they could become very sick indeed!
Comment by Leah — January 20, 2008 @ 11:29 pm
I’ve never been upset when other parents bring “just a cold” babies to church.
I had a friend who lost one child to RSV, had another rendered deaf and somewhat disabled from it, so when I’ve encountered people with kids who had RSV I wasn’t too happy.
On the other hand, kids are going to catch colds, their immune system needs the practice.
As the mom of 5 preemies, one of whom grew up immuno-compromised I developed the intestinal fortitude to be quite blunt with those who endangered my little darlings. I have delivered my microbiology lecture sweetly, rudely, firmly, shyly and angrily.
I guess I err on the side of caution, mostly, but understand when others don’t, at least a little, some times, when i can.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — January 21, 2008 @ 12:07 am
Err on the side of not infecting everyone else. PLEASE.
This is such a pet peeve of mine, I’m trying really hard not to say something snarky. I always know when my kids are going to get sick. Always RIGHT after we go to church, because some parent decided to drag their “oh he just has allergies” sick kid to church.
Comment by Sue — January 21, 2008 @ 12:37 am
Good point, Leah. We found a couple alcohol-free brands (less drying on the hands here in the desert, another nice perk!) but sometimes you have to scout around.
Sue, there’s nothing snarky about not wanting your kids to get sick and asking people to be courteous. I wrote the post wanting feedback, you’re offering perfectly polite feedback. My question, I guess, concerns taking kids to church when they are no longer contagious . . . probably. You can get a pretty good 95% guess from various things others have mentioned, but like you I’d prefer to err on the side of caution since I am myself immuno-compromised. But then if my pediatrician wasn’t kidding about 10 colds per year for very small kids, it seems like we’d have to stay home a LOT. I’m hoping she was just wrong, or that Muffin is quite hearty.
Boquinha–Thanks for bringing up what I should have initially noted: bringing a kid to church who obviously would feel better at home is not fair to the kid. Amen.
Comment by Janet — January 21, 2008 @ 9:36 am
I brought my baby to church yesterday, and she was a bit snotty. But nobody but me held her, and she doesn’t touch other kids. I say snotty babies are okay, but keep those toddlers at home. Yes, the nursery workers can wash hands, but what about when the toddler sticks a half eaten cracker into another kid’s mouth? Blech.
I have turned around and gone home when my son was in nursery and he threw up in the car on the way to church, and I have kept him home from preschool when he’s coughing a lot. I haven’t had too much of a problem with moms doing differently. Most moms know other moms don’t want sick kids around. But that chicken pox story–what the heck?
But one time both DH and I had to be at work, and I sent my son to preschool anyway,even though he was fighting was might have been bronchitis. I learned my lesson, though, because I was sick too, but went to work because I only had one patient. Well, guess who got sick? Yup, my one patient, who was in no condition to fight it off as quickly as me or my son, and was sick tor twice as long. Everybody kept wondering where she got the bronchitis, as nobody else on the floor had it. I had washed my hands, of course, and didn’t touch my patient at all, but she still got it. Oh, the guilt, the guilt, the guilt. That’s the last time I go to work sick.
Comment by Heather O. — January 21, 2008 @ 10:35 am
Oh, and Janet, I’ve heard that same statistic about the first year of life. I think kids who stay at home are, on the whole, less likely to reach that number, but even kids who are at home seem to get sick, out of the blue. There was a time in J’s life when I swear he had a runny nose for 3 months straight. This is Little Sister’s first cold, though, and she’s pushing 8 months. But she was a summer baby, so I’m sure things are different for kids born in the winter.
Comment by Heather O. — January 21, 2008 @ 10:41 am
Are you kidding? Any sort of sickness is a free pass out of Relief Society! Milk it.
Comment by salt h2o — January 21, 2008 @ 11:06 am
When I was in nursery we had a couple that disappeared every Sunday. We go looking for them when their child had a messy diaper or wouldn’t stop crying, and could never find them. Finally one week when I was wandering around looking for them toward the end of church, I saw them walk in the front door hand-in-hand with their clothes rumpled.
I demanded to know where they went every Sunday while I watched their kid, and they admitted those two hours after Sacrament Meeting where the only time during the week that they could have “alone time” wink wink.
Comment by jjohnsen — January 21, 2008 @ 11:12 am
I understand erring on the side of caution, but I also think it’s unfair to judge others choices by your own standards. If I kept my kids home if their noses were running at all, we would make it to church about twice a year. And I’m not exaggerating. If the snot is pretty colors, though, they stay home. Also if they’ve had any kind of fever in the last day. My husband used to question that, and was like “but they feel fine.” I pointed out that nursery is just about the best place on earth for getting other kids sick, and since I don’t really want my kids coming home with new germs, it was polite to extend others the same courtesy. But a little bit of clear runny nose is pretty much constant in my house, and I just can’t keep my kids inside all of the time.
Also, if someone tells you that their child is coughing because of asthma or allergies, or throwing up because of reflux problems, do them the courtesy of believing them. My best friend’s son has horrible asthma and environmental allergies (he’s on a nebulizer, takes frequent trips to the hospital, etc). When he was nursery age their ward had nursery leaders who would take kids out of nursery if they coughed even once. My friend even got a note from her doctor explaining that her son didn’t have a cold, but just had breathing problems, but the nursery leaders still wouldn’t ever let him go. And there are kids who throw up daily as well, even though they’re not sick. My own son was one, though luckily it stopped before he was nursery-aged. Show some empathy to parents of kids with chronic ailments, rather than judging them.
Oh, and on the specific issue addressed in the post — I think if the baby is miserable, keep them home. Otherwise, a non-mobile baby is fine at church with a cold. Just keep a better eye on people coming near the baby, and make sure you give warnings. After that, if they decide to stick their face next to your baby’s, it’s their own fault if they get sick.
Comment by Vada — January 21, 2008 @ 11:20 am
Before I had kids, I worked in a preschool, and the whole bringing sick kids thing was a BIG deal. When i was just a few months pregnant and horribly, awfully sick I had one little boy who threw up on me at least once a day for a whole week, but his parents insisted he wasn’t sick and wouldn’t pick him up. He had never done that in the year and a half I had been teaching him, so I don’t think it was a chronic ailment. I also have a friend who does bring her kids sick to everything, swearing it’s allergies, and then everyone catches those ‘allergies’. It’s not the people with chronic breathing problems or reflux that bug me, it’s the parents whose kids are obviously sick and they bring them somewhere where it’s someone’s job to look after them and 16 other kids and think that that’s fair to the teachers and the kids.
Comment by McMommy — January 21, 2008 @ 11:34 am
OK, wow. Touchy subject. I have to agree with Vada that if i stayed home for every runny nose or cough with 5 kids I’d never be in church. Having said that, thick gooey nose slugs and fever are definately stay home and rest tickets. And barf. My oldest daughter would get a cough every winter- all winter- an allergy thing that seriously sounded like croup. Try explaining that away to every “well-meaning” stranger in Target. Basically I’ve adopted the “Judge not lest ye be judged” attitude. Kids are gonna get sick, I’m not going to play the blame game. It’s a judgement call every mom hates to make.
Comment by MollyB — January 21, 2008 @ 12:46 pm
I say keep them home. As a nurse in the Newborn ICU, RSV is a serious and potentially deadly disease. Any child under the age of 4 with immune problem can catch it. Infants under the age of 6 months are very at risk, with infants born prematurely the highest risk. RSV acts like a normal cold in adults and children but in infants it can be so much worse. I worked with a nurse that her 4 year old niece contracted it and died from it.
Frankly, I would just as soon stay home from church with a cold, I can’t imagine it is much fun for the sick child.
Comment by Tanya — January 21, 2008 @ 4:25 pm
Babies: as long as the sickness isn’t messy, I feel it’s okay to pack them to church. And if I haven’t totally exhausted myself caring for them.
Toddlers/Nursery Age: If any amount of anything that isn’t completely clear is coming out of the nose, or if excessive amounts of clear stuff is coming out of the nose, they stay home. Nasty coughs or excessive crankiness are symptoms that also get this age kept at home.
Primary Age: Pretty much same as Nursery Age, though the nose thing seems to be less of an issue because they wipe/blow their noses now.
My horror story: Sitting in Relief Society (last hour of church) and hearing a mom say how the night before they took one of their kids to the hospital because he had severe croup. Her little boy was in nursery with my daughter. Sure enough, by the end of the week, my daughter and my under one year old son had croup. I still hold a bit of a grudge towards her for being so stinkin’ stupid. Croup is HIGHLY contagious. Lesson: If you take one kid to the hospital for a contagious illness, the reset of your children should be kept away from other kids.
Comment by mindy — January 21, 2008 @ 7:00 pm
As the mom of a child who caught RSV because someone brought their hacking child to church, please, keep the sick ones at home.
We have a LIFETIME of dealing with and immuno-comprimsed child that was previously just fine because one family thought that their activity in the church took priority over keeping a sick child at home.
And to the person who said to take your sick child and sit in a group of children…no one will know who the cougher is…shame on you! Next week that family will be the ones dealing with the cold.
You never know what stage a cold is in. RSV starts out as a clear runny nose. I had a pediatrican tell me that the MOST contageous time for a cold is when the nose is clear…how many of those kids with clear runny noses wipe their hands and then dig through the bread in the Sacrament tray or cough on the tray. How many moms who just wiped a runny nose touch that tray.
When and IF I let my family go in the winter, only one of us adults is allowed to touch the tray and we sanitize hands right before we hold it and right after we hold it. I NEVER want to be responsible for landing another child in the hospital the way my daughter was. You just watch that tray go around next time. It will make you absolutely ill.
I have a newborn now and there is no way that I will take her to church. My husband and I switch Sundays. We take our older two to church and as soon as they get home, they wash their hands and faces and strip out of their clothes. RSV lives on clothes for 8 hours! The same thing applies when they come home from school. My little Sunbeam didn’t start going to church until she was out of Nursery…due to what RSV has done to her immune system…and this was at the request of her pediatrican. She couldn’t go to class for two years. All because someone brought their sick child to church. How selfish to compromise another persons life because they needed to get out of the house! I don’t care if you never came to church because one child or another had a runny nose. IT IS NOT FAIR TO THOSE WHO ARE COMPROMISED!!! Love your neighbor as yourself. If you had an immuno-compromised person in your home, you would not want them around sick people…especially if those sick people had a choice on coming.
One “cough” changed our lives. And I am ANGRY about it.
And I am a little passionate on this subject.
For the love of all that is Holy, and for the basic respect of your fellow human beings, keep a sick child at home…or next time I am sick I will probably go up to you and cough in your face.
Comment by Sue — January 21, 2008 @ 9:30 pm
Yeah, my dad the microbiologist is always reminding me that many ailments hit their peak of contagion before they’re symptomatic. Not terribly comforting for the immuno-compromised, and not much anyone, anywhere, could do about infect me or others like me when they don’t even know they’re carting around a nasty yet. The idea does make me less annoyed at people who go to work/school/church with colored snot, though. I remind myself that maybe they aren’t contagious anymore.
I understand your passion, Sue. Of course, any number of small things could change any number of others lives–today a woman at a stop sign yelled at me because apparently her child wanted to cross the street. I’d stopped, he just stood at the corner waving a snow shovel for 5 seconds, so I started to drive again. Commence yelling. I felt bad, but I also thought the woman shouldn’t expect me to be a mind reader and might note that I did, after all, stop and look. But had I been just a teensy bit less attentive, my rather careful driving could’ve nonetheless ended in tragedy. We do have to cut people a little slack–if they’re blatantly dismissive of others welfare that’s one thing. If they bring a child to church who gets sick while there, or if their docs have told them the kids is no longer contagious (and they turn out to be wrong) horrible things like you experienced could still happen, but it wouldn’t be anyone’s *fault* so much as just an awful confluence of circumstance.
It has occurred to me, on numerous occasions, that perhaps when I’m especially run-down and thus more susceptible to catching something that usual, I should be the one to keep my sorry butt parked at home rather than expecting everyone with a slight case of the sniffles to magically understand my risk. I am quite empathetic to wardsyour passion and rage, don’t get me wrong. But people who are compromised have to make sacrifices as well–and I say this, remember, as one of the ranks. We have to stay home, perhaps, during cold and flu season rather than thinking 200 other people should skip because of us. That, too, is common courtesy.
Comment by Janet — January 22, 2008 @ 12:17 am
We recently learned the hard way (*before* reading a widely-circulated article about it) that stomach bugs (norovirus et al.) are contagious for up to three days *after* your last symptom, because your body continues to shed the virus. And it can live on surfaces for who knows how long. So we got the bug at the ward Christmas party from friends who looked and felt fine, and then took it to our family in Utah for Christmas (who were quite nice about it for the most part).
For me and my family (none of us are immune-compromised, except for, technically, my 3-month-old), I don’t mind the sniffles, but I’d really, really appreciate it if you didn’t share the barfs. For us, faucety noses and hacking coughs stay home with the barfing and diarrhea.
Comment by janeannechovy — January 22, 2008 @ 12:52 am
My 2nd got RSV, but luckily he was old enough that it wasn’t as serious for him as it was for Sue’s child. RSV is extremely dangerous for newborns and babies end up in the hospital (or die) from it. The dangerous time for RSV is Oct-March. RSV looks just like a cold in a child or an adult.
Definitely consider keeping your newborn away for from people for a few MONTHS especially if he/she is born in the late fall and winter.
As for going places when you are sick, I just don’t understand how to avoid it. Colds can last 2 weeks. How do you have a child stay home for two weeks when she’s 10 years old? She can’t miss that much school. How does an adult miss work for 2 weeks?
I remember my daughter had also had mild coughs that seemed to last for 5 months. I thought maybe allergies? But they didn’t discover anything.
Sometimes very mild cold-like nose seemed to last for months for my son. I had to wipe his nose a few times a day or he had dried buggers or goey stuff at his nose all the time. This was constant during the years he was 2 and 3 and maybe 4. I worried that preschool would think he was sick, but since it never really went away, I couldn’t really determine that it was an actual disease.
Comment by jks — January 22, 2008 @ 1:37 am
Those of you who feel so strongly about people staying home when they are sick or when their kids are sick. I have a question. Do you go around letting other people know that you are willing to sub for them in their calling?
Because honestly, just a few months ago I went to church pregnant and sick, while my husband stayed home sick, because it was FAR less trouble than getting a sub even though I felt horrible. Because my Primary presidency doesn’t let you off. They make you find your own sub. And nobody in the ward admits to playing the piano. Finding a sub has ruined every vacation I’ve taken in the past 8 years because it is such a hassle. I really hate calling people period, let alone asking them to do something.
My husband teaches primary, and its always a hassle for him to get a sub as well. He has an assistant teacher who balks anytime he is asked to actually give the lesson because my dh is sick or we are going out of town. And he’s still supposed to find another male to assist.
I had completely forgotten about this, but I just remembered I had to bring my son sick to the Xmas ward party. He started sleeping in the afternoon and had some sort of mysterious lethargic sickness, but by the time I realized he was sick, I didn’t know what to do because I needed to play the piano for the kids doing stuff in the program at the party. So I brought him. I did not feel like there was any other choice. I did manage to find a sub for the next day and my husband and I were going to switch off with me at sac mtg (I had to play two songs in the sac mtg program) and he’d come to primary, but since my son was better we all showed up and boy was my sub relieved she wasn’t needed.
Adult responsibilities sometimes interfere with the privelidge of being considerate of other people’s health.
Comment by jks — January 22, 2008 @ 2:02 am
JKS–
The most adult responsibility we have is to take care of our kids–not fill callings. Frankly, it would not have been the end of the world if the kids had to sing without the piano.
Comment by mami — January 22, 2008 @ 2:37 am
Sue,
I am sorry to hear about your troubles with RSV. My little girl had it last year, she was a toddler and pretty strong, so she wasn’t at risk, but oh the mucus and coughing and throwing up. It was awful.
I’m just wondering, how do you know it came from church? Maybe you picked up the virus at a store or whatever…
by the way, when our daughter got it, the doc. said it was going around the community. So I told our next door neighbors that my dd had it and what the doc said. They still took their 3 week old newborn to church. I thought that was nuts!
Comment by me — January 22, 2008 @ 6:55 am
I’m so sorry.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — January 22, 2008 @ 8:09 am
Sue, I am so sorry your family is experiencing such a trial. I am so glad you shared your story (and anger) because people need to know how dangerous thoughtless behaviors can be.
You are exactly right Mami. Church will go on if the pianist (or any other calling) isn’t there and the true responsible “adult” will behave in a way that is considerate of the congregation in all respects. I was the primary chorister and we didn’t have an accompanist for many weeks. We survived. The children learned how to train their ears and sing acapella. I have also seen primary classes combined when someone wasn’t able to get a sub for teaching. The great thing about being in a lay ministry is that we can all pitch in and help each other when it is required that we do so.
Here are some questions for you JKS.
I have often subbed for people who were going on vacation or ill or whatever. I have also asked people to sub for me when I wasn’t able to fulfill my responsibilities. Thats part and parcel to receiving a calling. You may think it is a “hassle” to do so when a child is ill-but just think of the burden you are placing on those who are immuno-compromised, very young, or very old. Did you consider the “hassle” they have dealing with RSV, pneumonia, or other such problems? Especially when, in the previous post, you say that your own child had RSV as well? Where is the empathy for others and their trials? And if it is in your power to alleviate and prevent someones suffering by keeping your children home (not to mention your own child’s suffering) then shouldn’t you, as a follower of Christ’s gospel, do so?
Luckily my children aren’t immuno-compromised- but I am. And it doesn’t matter if its “just a cold”, the past few years anytime I got one of these supposedly “harmless” colds it ended in severe, debilitating pneumonia. Oh, and more often than not I got these colds after going to church. It doesn’t matter if you wash your hands-most of the time with coughing snotty colds the germs are airborne and just sitting in the congregation will expose one to illness. At least when shopping or out in the public we are not stuck in an enclosed space with a smattering of ill people.
A doctor at Primary Children’s Hospital told me that Utah is the “strep capitol” of the nation. I asked why that is and he said there were a combination of factors but the climate and the church culture were the biggest reasons.
When you consider the cost paid by some families because of thoughtlessness in this area isn’t it worth it to err on the side of caution?
Comment by KDC — January 22, 2008 @ 8:17 am
Random bit of medical weirdness–KDS, I had a doc here in Utah note that more people in Utah are just strep carriers (and never get sick so don’t even know they’re contagious) and that’s part of the reason for all the illness as well. Id wondered, since despite my crappy immune system I hadn’t had strep in years until I moved here, and have now had it twice in two years. Strep. Yuck. I hate it even more than having pneumonia, because it hurts more.
The more I think about it–which is way too much the last few days–the more I think those of us who get sick so easily ought to consider staying home at the peak of cold and flu season, rather than expecting others to entirely curtail their lives and possibly lose jobs/schooling etc. because of us. Obviously nobody has any business going anywhere with a high fever or trailing vomit in their wake (excepting real emergencies) but I can’t make peace with the idea that the (several) dozen people at church/school/work with very mild colds anytime between October and February ought to stay home on account of me. The best defense I have against illness is protecting myself, and not expecting others to. (Of course they should be considerate, but lose a job because their sniffles might give me pnemonia? No.)
Comment by Janet — January 22, 2008 @ 9:27 am
Oh, and you know what’s worse than church? Teaching college freshman! Dorms are petri dishes! All those shared bathrooms? And at BYU, the nicmo capital of the world, mono just lies in wait. (Flashes back to spending majority of freshman year sick–though not because of nicmos ;)–as well as every winter I ever taught college)
Comment by Janet — January 22, 2008 @ 9:30 am
I agree with Janet. It is wise for more fragile people to stay away during peak seasons. Doctors usually recommend keeping newborns away during RSV season.
Comment by mami — January 22, 2008 @ 10:07 am
Until Janet swooped in with her infernal voice of reason, I thought I had the perfect excuse never to go to church again.
Comment by madhousewife — January 22, 2008 @ 11:07 am
for those of you who say that you would never go to church if you stayed home for every little sniffle, there seems to be a pretty simple solution (beyond trading off with spouses). keep your children with you, at the back of the room, away from other people - keep sanitizing cloths with you to wipe down anything they touch - DO NOT send them to nursery or primary. i can’t believe how many people i hear from who say that they can’t stand being out of church so much and that they HAVE TO bring their sick kids if they EVER want to go and then proceed to talk about putting the responsibility for their child’s illness and subsequent infection of others in the hands of a nursery or primary leader. if you know your kid is sick, but you’re desperate to go to church, why would you exacerbate the problem by sloughing them off on someone else without any knowledge of how sick they are or whether there are kids there who can’t handle a sickness? and why would you assume that you know whether your child is infectious, unless you’ve ordered a lab test?
i took my kids with me a few times when they were sick. never vomiting, never serious coughing, but a little runny nose, sure. but i would never consider putting them in someone else’s care, and i was very careful to segregate them from everyone else and to clean up after them constantly - washing hands, wiping noses and then washing my own hands, wiping down whatever bench they sat on, preventing them from touching the hymnbooks, and so on. i just don’t understand how people can justify sloughing off their “just a little runny nose” kids onto primary and nursery leaders and all those other little kids who shouldn’t have to be exposed to your child’s potentially contagious, potentially serious (if only for someone else) illness.
the worst calling i ever got was primary leader when i was immune-compromised. i begged the parents to keep their sick kids home and almost universally heard that they couldn’t stay away from church every sunday with sick kids. so how does it make it fair that you pass your kids’ diseases onto me, much less the other kids in my class? if you insist on going to church with sick children, keep them with you, and away from the leaders who deal with children, and away from other people’s kids.
Comment by chandelle — January 22, 2008 @ 11:37 am
Maybe someone can correct this. My doctor told me that you are contagious for 3 days before you show cold symptoms and only 1 day after the symptoms show up. Confirm or deny?
Comment by Ana — January 22, 2008 @ 11:45 am
Chandelle–
That is just unspeakable. Ugh, ugh, ugh. I love working in the primary, but when the immune system is on the fritz in the winter and the kids are all sick? UGH
Ana–Depends on the virus, I believe. I’ll ask the microbiologist father and doctor hubby and get back to you. Sounds familiar, anyhow. Sometimes it annoys me that I have no actual scientific memory of my own :(.
madhousewife–sorry! But, see, you could always consider it a calling to go visit the sick and afflicted, taking cookies with you. And since you’d be feeling icky, theoretically, you could just leave the cookies on the stoop, ring the bell, and return home to nap!
Comment by Janet — January 22, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
But the cookies would be contaminated. Better to just eat them myself.
Comment by madhousewife — January 22, 2008 @ 3:43 pm
#60 - From what I’ve read, no one really knows how long the contagious period is for colds. You’re most contagious when symptoms are most severe, but you’re also technically contagious for a few days before symptoms appear and throughout the duration of the cold. In other words, you could be contagious at any time. There’s really no way of knowing for sure that you’re not. (Which is not an excuse for spewing any obviously-present germs all over others.) Things like RSV and influenza are more contagious than the common cold, but you can’t always know for sure that you aren’t carrying one of these more-contagious viruses.
Guidelines I have gleaned from this thread:
Vomiting–stay home
Diarrhea–stay home
Coughing–stay home
Sneezing–stay home
Green/yellow runny nose–stay home
Clear runny nose–stay home
Exposed to anyone with any of the above symptoms–stay home
Proclivity for touching things–stay home
Like I said earlier, I’m hip to all this, but I’ll probably have trouble getting my husband on board. In his view the only reason to skip church is if you literally cannot stand up without falling down. Unless you have some responsibility you have to fulfill, in which case you really need to try harder to stand up. (I’m exaggerating a little bit…but not a lot.)
Comment by madhousewife — January 22, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
This is an interesting subject. My son (our second) is 18 months old. He was premature, has a heart murmur and sever hyper-tension. Because he also has severe food allergies, he can’t have the flu shot. Last year insurance paid for the RSV vaccine, but this year they won’t cover it and we simply can’t afford it. Our pediatrician has had us keep him home from church this year and last during RSV/cold/flu season.
My wife and I switch weeks, which has worked. We’ve lived in this ward 18 months (we moved into this apartment to be closer to the hospital while he was in the NICU) and there are still a ton of people in the ward that have no idea my wife and I go together. Also, other than being a little small for his age, he looks very healthy so when people who do know our situation see him, their first comment is always “oh he looks so good. Is he still sick or something?” as if we were just making it all up so we don’t have to go to church.
Also, re: #41 agreed. Our son vomits–a lot when he touches things (tables, etc.) that have his allergens on them. He puked at church one time all over me and down three hallways–not because he was sick, but because he had been exposed to something (maybe a piece of sacrament bread?).
Comment by ender2k — January 22, 2008 @ 6:11 pm
Janet,
I did and have stayed home a lot during the flu season and I also told my bishop that I will not accept a calling in the nursery or primary. Luckily my immune system is picking up since I’ve been on a strict anti-candida diet (no sugar, no gluten). For the first time in years I have not gotten a cold this winter. You see, I’ve stopped trusting in fate, in doctors, or hoping that people will stay home when they are sick and I took my health into my own hands. Thankfully I am being blessed with health for the first time in 8 years.
Oh, and I usually get strep pneumonia so its pretty painful (almost died of septic shock due to strep pneumonia a few years ago and had two thoracic surgeries as a result. Due to circumstances one of those surgeries was done without pain meds. Pain and I are old and fast friends).
I keep my kids home every time they are sick out of consideration for others. Every time. This year my kids have been sick a lot so dh and I have been playing church tag and I’ve missed plenty of R.S. I look at this as the price I have to pay for having 5 kids 7 years and under. My responsibility kwim.
Honestly, what is so hard about exercising a bit of common sense? If you have a hacking cough, a gushing nose, fever, or need to vomit stay home for pitys sake. Why do the contagious have more rights than the rest of us? What disturbed me most about JKS’ comment was her last line saying that adult responsibilities sometimes interfere with being considerate of other peoples health. Really? This seemed incredibly callous.
After battling extreme and chronic illness for years I believe there is no material blessing as important as health. A diseased temple has a hard time attaining spiritual heights or even living day to day. Maybe some of you who don’t worry about this right now will understand when you get older.
Of course people who have to work need to go when they have colds (or be fired) but this isn’t true of Sunday callings. If you can’t teach Sunday school one week due to illness the ward will go on. So why put others at risk and ignore the needs of your children?
Comment by KDC — January 22, 2008 @ 7:17 pm
I have to agree that as nice as it would be if people with sick kids would stay home, I don’t count on it and we’ve learned to act accordingly. My daughter spent her first several months in nursery sick pretty much every other week–the pattern was obvious–we take her to nursery, then on Tuesday, she’d come down with a cold. She’d miss that next Sunday, then be healthy to go the next week and the cycle would start all over.
Our son (our second child) was born at the beginning of Nov. 2007–we kept him home from church completely until he was three months and kept his 2.5 year old sister out of nursery until the end of April so she couldn’t bring home anything. The kids and I pretty much hibernated all winter and while it wasn’t fun at all for any of us and I felt incredibly isolated since we’d just moved to Utah that fall and didn’t get a chance to really get to know people, we were all fairly healthy. Until we all went to sacrament meeting at the beginning of Feb. for his blessing and sure enough, by the middle of the week, we were all sick. We didn’t all go back until spring.
I’m just grateful that we have no one in nursery for the next 4 months! We might make it through this winter without anything severe if we’re lucky.
Comment by Kim — January 22, 2008 @ 7:29 pm
KDC, I think most people agree that people with hacking coughs and the other stuff you list need to keep their bums parked on the couch. But I’m also sympathetic to the notion of keeping a ward staffed and am aware that some primary, SS, and RS presidents would pitch a fit at a last-minute cancellation due to a child’s illness. Sucks, but people can be weird. I think when a mild cold is concerned, we have to play the game of comparative advantage/disadvantage.
You had to have surgery w/o pain meds? ACK! The only good thing about having surgery as often as I do is the lovely versed and post-op opium! Did they even give you conscious sedation? Please say yes. Because otherwise you could star in that scary movie that’s out right now about the person whose paralytic anesthesia worked but not the analgesic. EEEEKK!
I’m intrigued by the yeast thing. Is it OK if I email you? Our problems sound rather different, but with the shared immuno-response weirdness, I’d be interested in finding out what you’ve discovered. I loathe the notion of giving up my DH’s homemade whole wheat bread, fresh from the oven and slathered in butter and honey, but I would love to make in through a single month without getting sick.
And I agree re: material blessings and health. I’d trade a zillion dollars (not that I have it!) for a functioning immune system. I’d happily go back to living in a studio apt. I might even consider trading all my books!
Comment by janet — January 22, 2008 @ 7:34 pm
But what is a mild cold? Its so subjective. The other Sunday at church a woman got up to bear her testimony RS and she had completely lost her voice and had been hacking. She apologized for not being able to enunciate saying she had “a little cold.” I tried hard not to be frustrated with her.
You are more than welcome to email me Janet.
My dad and sister-in-law both have cancer and so I’ve been doing this health journey with them. All three of us have had marvelous results with cutting out refined and high glycemic sugars.
I was most definitely knocked out for surgery but they were unable to give me the epidural pre-surgery because my spine would spasm. Those physicians felt so sorry for me. I awoke with the IV’s sticking into my feet because they couldn’t find anymore viable veins in my arms. Good thing the epidural didn’t happen because it turned out I had contracted a golden staph infection from my pic line. So I woke up intubated without meds. It was terrifying. And I couldn’t tell them the morphine they were giving me wasn’t working because of the tube down my windpipe. Finally, 24 hours later, I was able to get oxycontin and another high powered med that I don’t remember anymore. Bollus after lovely bollus.
Comment by KDC — January 22, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
I really do try to stay home when sick or when my kids are sick. But since we were on the subject, I mentioned the couple times I felt like I didn’t have a choice but to go. I should also mention that there have been a couple times I simply didn’t show up to play the piano at church because by the time I realized Imy child was sick, sac. mtg. had already started and there was no one to call to let them know. So I just had to not show up. See–I’m not completely callous.
The point of the post was that it is not always easy to “just stay home.”
My other point was that sometimes symptoms don’t seem to be a real disease (like 6 months of a mild cough).
What about other places than church? I try not to go to church or social events while sick, but I go to the store or other places.
And yes, when I had a job, I went to my job with a cold because there was no one else to do my job. Who can take off 2 weeks from their job? Anyone?
Perhaps it will make you feel better to know that while I may be “callous” about other people’s health by occasionally going somewhere with a cold, or sending my 4th grader to school my kids we are rarely sick these days so we rarely infect anyone. They are 10. 8, and 4. My pediatrician was surprised when my 3.5 year old had her well check and had had no visits since her last well check. No fevers here. No vomiting here. No, I don’t miss the days of 1-3 year olds and all their germ sharing.
I’ve never sent a sick child to nursery. As for my 10 year old, who can really tell if a 10 year old is sick or just whiny and wants to stay home claiming “my throat hurts” or “I wiped my nose a few times during the night.” Over 2.5 weeks she stayed home one whole day and two times for two hours and then I drove her in, and I just started to feel like she wasn’t really that sick. She was acting completely normal.
Maybe I’m just tired of my calling. If there were any people in the ward to call to sub for me, it would be a little easier. But anyone who can play piano seems to already have a calling. And no one is good enough to call and have them play in a program performance with 30 minutes notice.
A little compassion for my social anxiety disorder about calling people on the phone would be appreciated.
My baby will be born in 2 months. I’m wondering how my husband and I can tag team effectively, since we just have one car and he had to teach Primary. I’m thinking I couldn’t really do my calling with a baby, but especially those first couple months I want to keep the baby home. Cross your fingers that I’ll be released.
Comment by jks — January 22, 2008 @ 8:39 pm
jks - why don’t you just ask to be released? you certainly have good reason. i asked to be released when i got pregnant because my immune system was already shot and i couldn’t handle being sick all the time from those kids on top of being pregnant. we also didn’t have a car and it was hard enough getting to church. and i didn’t feel bad about it even a little bit. wished i’d asked for it sooner, in fact, or said no in the first place.
Comment by chandelle — January 22, 2008 @ 9:05 pm
jks, I hope your primary president has the good sense to release you. I’m so sympathetic to piano players. The whole ward goes bonkers w/o the piano (maybe we’re heavily tone deaf? And incapable of keeping a constant meter without prompting?) but those who actually play the instrument become sort of invisible *until* they don’t show up and people get all cranky about it. Nobody ever remembers to thank them for what the do, though! I’m quite pleased with my current ward because they always thank the music people.
I have no idea where you are located, but I hope its one of those places where it’s standard to release moms from their callings when they have a new baby. With that and all your other kiddos, you’ll be exhausted enough, and your family should certainly come first.
A
Oh dear, I did that once. Since I had chronic strep as a kid and generally loved school, I knew durn well i’d get away with it. But then my mom’s best friend fed by one of my favorite foods, which happened to be all scratchy, and the jig was up. Much lecturing, alas.
Comment by Janet — January 22, 2008 @ 10:04 pm
KDC–i’ve never been intubated while awake and frankly dread it. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Ugh. But the bolluses (bollusi?) sound good . . .
Comment by Janet — January 22, 2008 @ 10:05 pm
Hm. Just thinking about the way some people treated Blain over on the latest sex-related thread (surface stuff). I wonder, if he’d claimed to have a lust-immunodeficiency syndrome (earlier in his comments)–would more folks have had mercy on him, maybe not been quite so quick to say “snap out of it”?
I know, it’s a false comparison: don’t bring sick kids to church for everyone’s sake versus don’t bring sexiness to church for everyone’s sake. Isn’t a fully commensurate comparison. But still, we do SO MUCH for the “lowest” denominator in this church: lessons designed for the new converts, not the old hands, complete prohibition of alcohol etc for the addictive personality…..
TOTAL threadjack; sorry. But while I’m jacking the thread: I had a dream once that it was General Conference and there was a talk by some sweet old GA where he announced that “the Brethren” had had a good long chat and decided that a glass of wine or beer on the weekend wouldn’t hurt much….
Like I said, it was a dream.
Long live Airborn(tm). Haven’t been sick in over a year, using that stuff, and I’m usually a November-January-and-March cold clockwork.
Comment by hero — January 23, 2008 @ 12:01 am
HA! What a fun dream! HA! Then, of course, the GAs would endure constant hassling on their preferred brand or whatnot.
Comment by Janet — January 23, 2008 @ 8:42 am
i don’t think anybody was berating blain for asking that sexiness is not brought into church. i think blain was berated for not taking responsibility for his sexual response and blaming other people for it.
Comment by chandelle — January 23, 2008 @ 9:10 am
Sick children with runny noses, coughing, etc., are not welcomed into nursery. A sick child should stay home with a parent. It’s the thoughtful thing to do for the sick child and for the ward members.
Comment by Carole Knowles — January 23, 2008 @ 9:22 am
I’m there with Chandelle. (#75)
I am powerless over other people, places, things, events, institutionts, etc.
However, we do have power over our reaction - don’t blame me because you find my freckles sexy - if that were the case, we’d all reach for the hijab.. and then where are we?
Besides, sexuality is as natural as breathing - just be responsible for your own panting.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 23, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
I’m all for staying home when kids are sick. However we live in an area with allergens year round. My kids have been to the Dr. numerous times and it’s always just allergies. We go to church with allergies even though it looks like they’re sick. We get lots of glares but I get tired of feeling judged when my kids aren’t actually sick.
Comment by mom of 3 — January 23, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
For what it’s worth, Janet, my son is nine months old now and has only had one extremely mild cold (he only even had symptoms for a day or two). I think the ten colds a year thing comes from the prevalence of kids in daycare or have parents that work with the public and get sick a lot.
Comment by Firebyrd — January 23, 2008 @ 10:54 pm
So putting one little martini directly into an alcoholic’s stomach shouldn’t trigger anything either. Just because you have one little drink in there, you don’t have to take the second one. You don’t have to. You don’t even have to respond to the first one. It is up to you, whether you react in a physiologically alcoholic way or not. Don’t blame the glass, don’t blame the olive, and don’t blame the martini, even if it is already in your stomach, working its martini magic: this situation is about how you are responsible for whether or not your stomach puts the alcohol into your blood, because civilised, respectable people don’t let that happen. Responsible people don’t blame the chemical, or the glass; they take the blame themselves, and simply willfully disallow the transfer of alcohol into the blood. Because, everybody knows you can’t live your life as if no alcohol will ever get into your stomach; that’s unrealistic and blame-shifting again. Forcing all drinks to not be alcohol is repressive and heartless and cruel.
This is a very snotty and unfair game of devil’s advocate, I know. And I’m not saying I agree with everything Blain said, but I really saw a disconnect between what he was trying, very very hard, to describe, and what people responding to him kept missing. I’ve been in that kind of conversational situation, where the responses are so set you can’t break through with actual news. It’s painful. It’s scary. Especially when you think you’re speaking to a somewhat sympathetic audience.
Comment by hero — January 23, 2008 @ 11:39 pm
i’m sorry, but i just don’t see the connection. does not the church advocate bringing our natural impulses under control? i know plenty of men with normal sex drives, my husband included, who can be around naked women or see naked women (both of which happen quite a lot in our lives) without responding because they have learned to control themselves through discipline and respect. if these men do respond to women they do not blame the woman. they do blame themselves for not having the self-control to avoid a reaction or at the very least they accept the reaction as being the result of themselves only and not the woman. arousal in fact does take a lot of brain power. it is indeed often a choice. perhaps not as much for hormone-driven teenagers, but certainly for self-aware adults who practice self-control. we are not animals. sexual arousal is in many ways inadvertent, but it IS controllable to a certain degree, and even if it is NOT controllable, it still should NEVER be blamed on someone else. if blain had said, gee, sometimes i get turned on and i just can’t do anything about it, that would be one thing. instead, he blamed other women for doing this TO him through their actions or dress, and that is the fallacy, the blame-placing, that many of us were pointing out as the problem.
firebyrd - that has been my experience as well. my children didn’t have more than one or two colds, mild ones, during their first year. we’re not germophobes or sanitizer-philes, but we didn’t go out very much and they were never in anybody’s care but ours. i think that makes a big difference.
Comment by chandelle — January 24, 2008 @ 10:39 am
So if an alcoholic has a relaspe, do we blame the bartender, the bar, advertisers, alcohol manufacturers? Or do we blame the schmoe who went to the bar, asked for the drink and consumed it? No one says that the packaging of alcohol is the problem, so why is the packaging (so to speak) of women the problem?
But on the original topic, Chandelle and Firebyrd, I thinnk that alot of times the statistics about childhood illnesses are based largely on children who attend daycare, so stay at home kids are less likely to get sick. Daycare (or nursery) is an ideal environment for germs.
Comment by McMommy — January 24, 2008 @ 10:55 am
I agree with Hero about the attack on Blain.
Chandelle, can you tell me where exactly he said he blamed women for the reactions he has? Because everyone keeps accusing him of that, but I cannot figure out where he said that. It seems that people are only assuming that he was putting blame or responsibility on women.
Comment by april — January 24, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
I guess I should comment on the original topic. Yes some people are very insensitive about bringing kids that are sick to church (or other close public places). However, I fall into the allergy category. I am congested a good portion of the time, but am not sick. It is frustrating when people think I am.
Also, with kids, my daughter often gets a clear runny nose when she is teething. If she doesn’t have any other symptoms of being sick, then I assume it is just the teeth, and I bring her to church. I don’t feel bad about it, but I often wonder if others are judging me. Other days, (not related to the teething) she has seemed just fine and normal on Sunday, then Monday morning she starts showing symptoms of something, and I feel bad because she was probably contagious the day before, but I had no way of knowing. We should all do our best to keep sick kids, and ourselves, away from others, but anytime you are in public you run the risk of catching something.
Comment by april — January 24, 2008 @ 1:49 pm
by ordering strict, condescending and judgmental guidelines for women in how they should dress and act and then saying that his physiological response was out of his control and that it was prompted by the way that women dress and act, it’s pretty hard to take that as anything but an accusation and blame-placing.
i took my kids with runny-teething noses too. i guess i just had to hope they weren’t really sick since they were almost never sick, and luckily that was always true for us, but i can see how there could be a mix-up about it.
in other news, i went out to dinner with friends three days ago, the first time i’ve been out in a long time. one friend, for some unknown reason, brought her son with a terrible cough. all night she was covering his mouth for him when he would let out this barking, deep chest cough and i didn’t ever see her wash her hands. i tried to just ignore it because i didn’t want to come off as obsessive or rude. i developed a cough yesterday and it’s become dramatically worse in just a day. i heard today that my friend, her son and her other child all have pneumonia now. i feel really wonderful about that, just fantastic. it gives me great hope, you know? it makes me wish i’d just sucked it up and asked her to wash her hands. i could have caught this infection somewhere else but it seems that the chances are many times higher that i caught it from her or her son, and that doesn’t make me happy.
Comment by chandelle — January 24, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
Chandelle, I am really not trying to start and argument, but I am still trying to figure out exactly what part of what he said was so terribly offensive. Saying that he ordered “strict, condescending and judgmental guidelines for women in how they should dress” doesn’t help because that is a subjective interpretation of what he said, but I am still trying to figure out what part of what he said you took to mean that.
I will concede that some of it was probably not said in the best way, he definitely could have been more tactful, but in giving him the benefit of the doubt, I didn’t interpret his underlying message to be misogynistic.
As for him claiming that the physiological reaction was out of his control, I believe there is some truth in that. How he handles that physiological response is of course very much in his control, but I don’t recall him ever blaming anyone for his actions, just complaining that it was distracting to have to deal with the physiological reaction in the first place. Yes, it is his problem, but I think some people naturally have a harder time dealing with it than others, and I don’t think it is unfair for him to ask for women to be considerate in how they dress. The “guidelines” he suggested are no different than general church modesty standards, so I don’t think it is out of line to petition women to follow that standard at church.
Anyway, sorry you got sick, hopefully it doesn’t progress to pneumonia. It sounds like you and your kids are normally very healthy so hopefully you can fight it off well. Oh, and when I was talking about runny nose/teething stuff, I have never had a mix up with that either luckily, what I meant was that times when she looks perfectly healthy (no runny nose or anything) then the next day she gets sick.
Comment by april — January 24, 2008 @ 4:47 pm
Oh Chandelle, ugh. Didn’t you just get over near-pnemonia a month ago? Why anyone would misinterpret the deep chest cough as benign is beyond reason. Those suckers hurt. And pnemonia is hard enough without kids…I’m dreading my first bout as a mom, and am semi-incredulous I haven’t gotten it this winter as usual (must have something to do with not having a job at the moment).
Do you require soup? I make a tasty lentil stew.
Comment by Janet — January 24, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
My baby was seven months old when she contracted RSV. She was born in April. We know it was at church because a woman brought her fevering, coughing, sneezing runny nose child to church and told everyone it was “allergies” and her daughter ran up to my daughters carseat…which was covered with a blanket…yanked it off and coughed in her face. We yanked her off, but the damage had been done.
It was sacrament and we went because my husband was confirming our neighbors daughter. Otherwise we would have stayed home. It was the first time I had taken her since October. I don’t take my infants ANYWHERE from October to March. This was our one exception.
I agree that anything can change our lives in an instant. It is just that this “instant” could have been prevented had someone kept their sick child at home…or at least kept their child under control…but that is a whole different thread.
Comment by Sue — January 24, 2008 @ 9:51 pm
Sue, I’m so sorry your family has had to deal with this. It’s hard enough to be sick oneself, but a sick child is heartbreaking.
Out of curiosity, how do you stay sane not taking babies anywhere for half the year? Do you and your spouse trade off so you don’t wind up with cabin fever? I was a preemie and then broke both my legs at 18 months–both required that my mom stay home for about 3 months after the hospital released me (well, with the legs she could choose to lug me around on her hip, but I didn’t really fit in a carseat, I imagine). She refers to it as some of the most lonely months of her life.
Comment by Janet — January 24, 2008 @ 10:52 pm
Hi, this is my first time posting on this site and I’m a bit overwhelmed with the passion that has been put into this topic. I served in the nursery a year ago and LOVED it. the handbook is very clear about sick children. They should not be brought to class. Runny noses, coughs, fevers, etc. I just assumed that is was common courtesy to keep your children home if they are sick. I have had to battle chronic illnesses myself and have recieved the sacrament at home with the permission of the Bishop.
I understand the pull to be at church and participate, based on a desire to express faith. Perhaps I am a bit naive and think too highly of people. I can’t imagine taking a child to church with RSV or chickenpox. I’m shocked.
Comment by Joanne — January 26, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
I also wanted to add, that while serving in the Nursey we had a family that brough their daugther to nursery sick. We had an open discussion about it and they were happy to support our “healthy nursery” policy. Even though they had struggled with attending church in the past, they weren’t offended and kept their daughter with them when she was sick. The mother ended being called to serve in the nursery with me. We became good friends.
She was relatively new to the church and just didn’t know. This doesn’t have to be a war between parents.
Comment by Joanne — January 26, 2008 @ 3:25 pm
Wow, I have never experienced people bringing severely ill children to church (ie vomiting, chicken pox etc.). Perhaps my experience is atypical! I find cold season to be annoying because DH and I have different standards as far as returning to the public sphere after battling a cold. I’m happy to keep her home when she is hacking up a lung or miserable but when she is perfectly happy and just a little bit sniffly….it seems ridiculous to keep her home. After all, those sniffles and occasional coughs linger and linger and linger and linger. Keeping her home doesn’t seem to do her any good and, for goodness’ sake, I can’t believe that after a week you are still contageous. If DH had his way we’d be stuck at home for a month which just seems beyond reason to me. (My DH is rather obsessed with what he deems too inconvenient for other folks–if he had his way we’d never fly with children or, really, ever go in public with any child, sick or healthy!)
I sympathize with the immune compromised folks. I have MS and so even a mild cold kicks my tush in a big way…I do my best to avoid sick people myself but I honestly don’t think you can keep a sniffler home forever. We live in a germy world, folks.
Comment by Marianne — February 4, 2008 @ 11:34 pm
This looks like an old blog, but I still wanted to put in my 2 cents worth.
I have to drive about 40 miles, round trip, to get to my ward. I have not been an active Mormon for many years. Last week, I decided to try it again.
I sat on the last row, at Sacrament Meeting, in a very small room, as they have a very small attendance. First, a small child, about 4 or 5, comes by me, coughing every breath, not covering her mouth. Of course, she takes a seat in front of me. I move to the other side of the back row, because when I get sick, I get really sick and it goes into bronchitis or pneumonia.
Next, a couple with 3 or 4 boys, sits in the back row, on the side that I had moved from. The father decided it was ok to rough house with his oldest boy, who stood up the whole time, in front of his dad. The boy laughed loudly, while the others screamed and whined. I could barely hear the speaker (one of whom was the mother of those kids) and I could not concentrate. At one point, I found the youngest son, UNDER my folding chair.
All in all, it was a bust. I came in, spiritually hungry and left the same way. I won’t go back. I kept my kids home if they were sick, when I was an active member and I also taught them to cover their mouths, if and when they coughed. They knew that from a very early age. I also taught them to be quiet in church, brought “quiet” toys, cheerios, etc. (I had twin sons and a daughter, and the boys were about 3 and my daughter 1, when I joined the church.) I also wouldn’t let them run in and out, like they were at a movie theater.
I had this complaint, as well as older people writing letters, reading and sleeping, back when I first joined the church. Now it is over 30 years later and I still see the same thing. It’s like people show up, to do their “duty” and go through the rituals of Sacrament, but they aren’t really there.
I’m all for “family time”, but I think other churches who put the little ones in their own classes or nurseries, have the right idea. At least, it gives parents a chance to concentrate on the messages and be re-filled, spiritually.
That’s all I’ve got to say, except, I am not going back.
Comment by Karen — September 15, 2009 @ 2:41 pm
Karen, was it my family in front of you? No, just kidding - we weren’t in any Sacrament meeting on Sunday (got a flat on the way to church). But, I hope my four sons are never the reason anyone decides to not come to church.
I don’t send kids to church when they are sick. Somehow, miraculously, out of four kids, we missed maybe one or two Sundays in the past two years. Sure, I’d pray for a sick kid to have the excuse to stay home, but no such luck. It was nice to take a month off when the baby was born and finally get a break!
Comment by Stephanie — September 15, 2009 @ 5:20 pm
Hi why are you all mormons? don’t you know that the 2 angel that appeared were satan’s angels? same with muslims same with catholics.
Comment by laluna — November 7, 2009 @ 9:25 am
Why are you all mormoms? the 2 angels were satan’s angels same to the musmims and also catholics.
Comment by inter — November 7, 2009 @ 9:27 am