304 Comments

1. sounds lovely.

   the questions are, will the current nursery leader think it’s lovely, since he’s the one who would have to change styles; and who will purchase the new lovely wood and cloth toys.

   I must admit, as a nursery leader I did come to love that awful plastic kitchen. I wouldn’t have had one in my house, but the 17 kids in nursery really did enjoy it.

   Comment by Johnna Cornett — January 25, 2008 @ 1:12 am

2. Artemis–

   You might find 10 minutes too long for a lesson. But I think your plan is wonderful!
   I must say that yes, I absolutely think your idea to swap out all the other toys with the ones you prefer is snobbish (your whole view of it condescending and arrogant), and extremely expensive. Try getting someone to pay for it.

   Comment by mami — January 25, 2008 @ 1:31 am

3. Ah, Waldorf education is just the best, isn’t it? ( and I’m a believer)

   You may have a hard time convincing the uninitiated at the value of all this though. Waldorf really requires a re-tooling of ones life if it is to be successful. I’m not knocking you- heaven knows, I’m the one hollering about wooden toys from the rooftops- but this may be harder to pull of than you think.

   Keep us posted on how this goes.

   Comment by tracy m — January 25, 2008 @ 2:20 am

4. honestly, if you’re really keeping her out of nursery because you’re “reluctant about the mountain of plastic toys and their relative disability to inspire creative play,” yeah, that sounds pretty outrageous. be in the nursery, not of the nursery! are you going to keep her away from the homes of friends and families who don’t have waldorf-approved toys? i really can’t even wrap my head around your reasoning and we’re a waldorf family with the playstands to prove it! what if there were more kids in there? would you really have kept her out of nursery because of unimaginative toys? what if you had an anti-waldorfer in your ward?

   for most of the waldorf toys, i can imagine a ward where the grandmotherly and grandfatherly types would LOVE to make toys for the nursery. ditto for scouts and young women and the relief society and high priests. that could be a really fun ward project!

   in terms of the menu, you’re lucky there’s only one other kid in there! i used to exclusively provide snacks because i was picky about what the kids ate and it got expensive. i’ve loosened up a little bit and i know a few goldfish on sunday won’t kill my kids, but i still balk at the peanut butter and anything sugary! (my girls used to come home with bags of candy, chocolate, and cookies every single sunday, after already eating some as a part of their snack, AUGH!)

   your plan for the day seems pretty good and not unlike a lot of what i’ve seen in other wards. i really like the preparation for the table, similar to how relief society seems to always prepare. it’s nice to see that kind of effort going into the nursery kids.

   Comment by makakona — January 25, 2008 @ 2:22 am

5. Wow! This sounds great! I hope you have great time planning, organizing, paying for, and carrying out the whole thing as the new nursery leader! Cuz baby, that’s exactly what any nursery leader would be thinking when you handed him that rigid mess of first-time mom gone haywire.

   Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 2:43 am

6. It seems like a fun time, though admittedly I’ve never tried scheduling (or herding) a passel of toddlers before, so I have no skin in this game.

   My question is a naive one: What is the advantage of wooden toys per se? Is it based on an environmental stance against petrochemicals, or is there an inherent creativity advantage for wood? I have taken a quick look at Waldorf before, but this answer wasn’t readily apparent.

   Comment by RE — January 25, 2008 @ 3:01 am

7. I think your plan for the nursery is excellent. And I think you should go for it! Don’t let people without vision get in your way.

   With that in mind…. and In my experience…

   I taught nursery where I had 1-2 kids. The 18 month little girl was adorable, but she was unable to sit and listen. She spent the most time having me hold her and practiced turning on and off the lights.

   I lived in a “poor” ward at the time, so I don’t know if this is church-wide or not, but they were unwilling to pay for anything. There was no nursery budget. Like none. The nursery had a couple of old dirty stuffed animals and some ancient filthy plastic toys. I made my own salt dough, brought in crafty stuff from home, and provided the paper and crayons. Parents provided their own snacks for their children.

   I don’t know how you could possibly get the money for this.

   Finally, letting Marigold play with some plastic toys for 2 hours a week isn’t going to ruin her. I’m sure with a conscientious mom like you at the helm, she will get ample opportunity for genuine creative play at home and in Waldorf-pre-school, when the time comes.

   Comment by meems — January 25, 2008 @ 5:06 am

8. One of the reasons that plastic toys are preferred for large group play is that they are easier to sanitize. They can be run through the dishwasher.

   I guess one could run hand sanitizer over the wood blocks, but it would have to be for a full minute each to be effective.

   Comment by Naismith — January 25, 2008 @ 6:02 am

9. What does your nursery currently do? This Waldorf plan sounds pretty similar to what my home ward is already doing. If this really isn’t the norm for nurseries in the church, I’m surprised. Our Primary Presidency tend to be very rank and file (overzealously so, I’d say) so I just assumed our Waldorf-esque nursery is the way its done.

   Comment by Phoenix — January 25, 2008 @ 7:24 am

10. I’d like to circle back to the ‘friend’ aspect of this conversation. Child development - including play - follows general patterns of behavior as evidenced through research.

    Solo play - children play by themselves and ignores other children is the norm for most 2-yr-olds.

    Parallel play - children play in similar activities side by side is seen as the child gets closer to age 3 and is generally diminished by age 4.

    Cooperative play - children actively engaged in play involving reciprocal behaviors can begin as young as almost 4-yrs-old.

    Of course, we know toddlers wack each other on the head with stuff all the time (our oldest daughter used Barbie as a weapon long before she learned to change Barbie’s outfits) - but that type of interaction at this level is generally not considered cooperative sophisticated play.

    With that being said, I love the idea of the new nursery approach. Not sure how the adults in nursery will embrace the increased work load.

    Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 25, 2008 @ 7:50 am

11. We use plastic toys because we can soak them in dilute clorox without hurting them, keeping them (comparatively) sterile.

    After the recent post on sick kids at church, I’d think that would be a plus!

    Comment by Joanne — January 25, 2008 @ 7:51 am

12. 1–yeah, super snobby
    2–want to know why your nursery has the toys it has? They were donated. If a parent complained about the toys (unless they were unsafe), I would say: “We will use whatever you bring.”
    3–seriously, pinecones? Have you ever met a 2 year old? In the mouth, in the eyes, it hurts just thinking about it…
    4–Yes, the plastics are for sanitization. When you refurbish the nursery with your wooden toys, I will also ask that you be in charge of weekly sanatizing: thanks!
    5–seriously, a table-cloth? Have you ever met an 18month-3 year-old? I would count the seconds after children arrive that the tablecloth would be pulled, and everything on it was on the floor.
    6–If I were your Primary President and you approached me with these concerns, I would, without hesitation, call you to be the nursery leader. A good nursery teacher (or good Primary Teacher) is much harder to find than a counselor!

    And, by the way, nursery is totally voluntary. It was first established for the kids of people who were teaching. If you choose to prepare Marigold for Primary by wandering the halls until she is three, good luck and have fun.

    If this is the way you fret about Marigold and nursery, I predict you will be homechurching and homeschooling in a biosphere before she is 5. Friend-to-friend: get over yourselves!

    Comment by a spectator — January 25, 2008 @ 7:55 am

13. Ummmm…..
    This lesson plan is EXACTLY what every ward nursery my children participated in from 1986 to 2000 did. Although yes, there were plastic toys. But also some nice wooden ones. And sometimes I had to donate a few things, and sometimes when I wasn’t the Nursery leader myself, I volunteered to bring the snack every week, because I wanted to go more nutritious than what they were doing.

    You mentioned your dislike of plastic, but what else bothers you about the nursery program they are currently running?

    Comment by Bored in Vernal — January 25, 2008 @ 8:08 am

14. Agreed BiV–the program itself is no great deviation from what is in the manuel.

    Comment by a spectator — January 25, 2008 @ 8:19 am

15. Artemis–Your quite lovely program sounds similar to the nursery program I taught from way back in the early 90s. It sounds like your nursery has the boon of tiny class size, so hopefully the leader would actually interact with the children in this sort of manner, which is obviously fantastic.

    As for plastic? Well, I’m no great fan either, but I doubt the very small amount of time Marigold spend w/them in nursery would do her harm–especially if she’s playing with another child rather than stuck in a big room of Fisher Price sans other kiddos. The slight tackiness and rather uninspired nature of those toys might be offset, as others suggest, by their “easy clean” factor. Otherwise, you’ll have to find another toy source. I LOVE the idea of seeing if someone makes toys.

    My largest suggestion is to talk to the leader, since this would fall on him. When I taught nursery I’d have LOVED it, but would have also appreciate someone respecting me and how seriously I took my calling enough to talk to me about it before expecting me to change my course. Such an expectation wouldn’t be respectful of what the fellow has offered of himself in the past. Since your ward (hallelujah!) has shown willingness to make changes for you, why not talk to the leader and see what he thinks? With any luck he’ll be delighted by the cool plans you’ve constructed.

    Comment by Janet — January 25, 2008 @ 8:38 am

16. Hol. EEEE. Cow. Loosen up soon, baby, or life will be very very very very very very hard.

    I know how you feel, though. When my kids were little, I totally drew the line at biohazards. Nuclear watse, used medical sharps: no; I put my foot down. My kids just could not play with them.

    Comment by hero — January 25, 2008 @ 8:56 am

17. This sounds very similar to our current nursery program. I’m the music leader for nursery, and take it very seriously. Aside from plastic toys, it’s pretty much the same.

    I actually used this method when I taught preschool in my home, and I don’t even know what the heck a “Waldorf” is –and I majored in child development. Maybe I’m just not remembering it right.

    Anyway, I have to agree that your primary concern seems a little…anal. I’m not sure how keeping her from plastic toys will make her smarter…? And although I’m impressed with the Primary President’s reaction to your concerns (which makes sense. I mean, only two children in nursery? Of course they should accomodate the parents), I still don’t get it.

    Comment by cheryl — January 25, 2008 @ 8:57 am

18. “But we’re reluctant about the mountain of plastic toys and their relative disability to inspire creative play. (Plus they’re plastic. Yuck.)”

    Yikes! This sounds a bit snobby. Nursery time is meant to give your child time to get used to being away from you for 2 hours, socializing, and getting a sense of God and Jesus. It’s not some elite, private preschool!

    Other than that, I actually really like the lesson plan.

    Comment by Macy — January 25, 2008 @ 9:02 am

19. My guess is that unless you volunteer to be in the nursery yourself, the current nursery leadership will probably “take it under advisement”.

    Our ward has 30 children in the nursery and a small army of workers and leaders (10, I think), including former educators who volunteered to be there. I don’t have the background to know what teaching model they are using, but I doubt that if I were to propose an alternate model for my child that I’d be taken seriously.

    At any rate, I’m just glad they stopped using Play-doh in the nursery.

    Comment by queuno — January 25, 2008 @ 9:14 am

20. Someday you will look back at this post and laugh.

    Comment by E — January 25, 2008 @ 9:37 am

21. When I was nursery leader, our nursery followed the same sort of schedule, except I’d mix up playdough time with puzzle time, because playdough every Sunday got old after awhile. Also, I’d end with bubbles, because first we’d put everything away and have a wide open floor for the kids to run around and catch the bubbles. It was a great incentive to get everything put away. They loved it. I just had to be careful not to start it too early or they’d get bored of it before parents arrived.

    It can be really hard to get all the kids to sit down for a lesson, I mean there’s a big difference between an 18 month old and a three year old. I tried to reference whatever the lesson was on throughout the whole two hours—if it was about animals, we’d mention the animal toys or read animal books or do animal puzzles, etc.

    One of the hardest things I had to deal with in nursery was parents hanging out there, because their kids had separation anxiety. Wouldn’t have been a big deal except any adults in there tended to chat with each other and I felt like the focus should be on the children, not jabbering with other adults.

    Comment by Susan M — January 25, 2008 @ 9:37 am

22. Plastic toys get a bad wrap mainly because a lot of them used to made of PVC (Polyvinyl chloride) which is really not good for anyone to chew on. But any new toy (especially toddler toys) should be made from safe plastics like PE and HDPE (which are also very recyclable).

    From an envormonmental standpoint its easy to write off plastic as bad. But is that really accurate? After all, the wooden toys have to come from somewhere. If the toys are perfectly safe, its better for the environment for them to be in a nursery room than in a land fill just so you can have shiny new wooden toys. Although I love wooden toys (especially hand made ones) and natural fibers, its not a given that they’re better for the earth.

    As far as the lesson plan, I like most of what you have there. It sounds a lot like our nursery. And I think its important that parents are concerned about what/how their kids are being taught. I would expect most people would welcome parental INPUT..but…you pretty much did the Nursery Leaders job for him. If I was that person, I’d hand you the keys and say, “have fun”.

    Comment by cj douglass — January 25, 2008 @ 10:03 am

23. The post sounds quite over the top to me?

    I have had 4 kids go thru nursury. Usually they were in classes of 6-10. My experience with small children is that they will play with anything that strikes their fancy. From wood to plastic to rocks and dirt. Or some kind of combo. They also go thru phases focusing on one type of toy for a while. I disagree that plastic does not inspire play based on the 4 kids.

    Like Queno if I propsed this they would simply ignore me and I would walk away telling myself to get over myself.

    I also agree with E. That a couple more kids and a few years on and you will wonder what you were thinking.

    The lesson plan seems fine to me if you want to take the time and energy to take over the nursury and create some seperation anxiety by your presence. Trust me on this one. We were in Nursury with out 2 oldest. Caused lots of issues.

    I suspect that after your vent the P President was like “who cares this much about nursury? If she does then let her run it.

    Comment by bbell — January 25, 2008 @ 10:14 am

24. It’s GOOD to insist on the best for our children!! That’s the only way positive changes will take place. I say, “Go for it!” Waldorf style is beautiful. it’s amazing what one person with preferences can pull off. For example, In our nursery we had a mom who was concerned about the lack of nutrition and abundance of sugar that was being fed to the kids. So she always brought her son healthy food. then the nursery teachers decided to buy the good food for everyone and were reimbursed for the small additional expense by the bishopric. No big deal. These small changes need to be made or else it a world of diabetes and obesity for our “precious” children.

    Comment by Raquel — January 25, 2008 @ 10:35 am

25. “Don’t let people without vision get in your way.”

    Priceless! Carve yourself a big wooden mack truck (biofuel only please!) of determination, cover it in a beautiful natural fiber cloth of self-importance and march in there and tell those uninformed unvisionary creativity destroyers who dare call themselves parents and leaders exactly how any intelligent and involved parent would have it done. Tip: Don’t let the door hit you in the a**. Unless it’s made of wood, cuz then it just might inspire you.

    People are right. This is already the nursery program. Done it. My husband does it now. The only difference is your toys and snacks. Pack snacks for the nursery yourself (for both girls). Also, while your plan is good, that much detail has now taken stewardship from the person whose job it really is. I know you think you are suggesting, but your plan leaves room to pick a different prayer poem, not decide on the best way to run nursery.

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 10:38 am

26. Raquel,
    I don’t think anyone is saying that parents should not be involved - just not controlling and overbearing.

    Comment by cj douglass — January 25, 2008 @ 10:47 am

27. I swear lately I’m reading auras or something, because I was having almost the same discussion with myself this morning. My daughter does not like our nursery the way it is run and I really think she would love it if only half of your outline was implemented.

    When I was NL a few years ago I brought healthy snacks and it was like a revalation- you mean, you can serve something other than graham crackers or goldfish in nursery?

    While you’re at it, add a sign in sheet where parents promise their kid didn’t throw up the night before and tell you what classes they are in so you can find them easily for a diaper change.

    Comment by claire — January 25, 2008 @ 10:48 am

28. About the # of kids in your nusery, we are the polar opposite. We have…count them…6 (that is SIX) nursery classes, each with between 6 and 9 of the little terro…..er, angels. Each class with a pair of adults as teachers. It is pretty crazy. We live in a newer subdivision with relatively affordable homes near an industrial area and a freeway…leads to LOTS and LOTS of young families. I have one of the older families with 15, 13, 11 and 6 year olds.

    Comment by Chad — January 25, 2008 @ 10:52 am

29. Wow! I find myself wishing, hoping, wanting to assume this post is satire. But I remember well a decade ago when I had similar thoughts about reforming nursery before allowing my child to enter. The only difference is the teaching philosophy…mine was/is Montessori.

    So, while I very well understand the way you feel, I must echo the many other comments: “Get over yourself!” Seriously. Marigold is almost certainly going to love nursery. And she will learn all sorts of good things. Do not take the nursery away from the person who actually has the calling. It’s quite likely that this person will play an extremely positive role in your daughter’s life.

    Final thought…pinecones and seashells? Too funny.

    Comment by Ahna — January 25, 2008 @ 10:56 am

30. Wow. Maybe you should worry about important things. I’m pretty sure two hours a week playing with plastic toys and eating cookies isn’t going to destroy your child. Seriously. Wow.

    Comment by Sarah — January 25, 2008 @ 11:02 am

31. I think Artemis is sincere and genuinely concerned, not snobbish. She acknowledged that this idea is unusual, but she’s not expecting things to change in her ward because of her- the primary president offered it! I don’t particularly agree with her idea, but I am appalled at the lack of respect and sarcasm she received in the comments! Sheesh, people! If she were writing about anything else that her family was concerned with, like food allergies or learning disabilities or a belief to not celebrate Halloween, or whatever, I think she’d find a lot more respect. She’s not asking YOU to do it!

    Comment by Barb — January 25, 2008 @ 11:08 am

32. I’m a bit shocked and saddened by the mean tone behind some of the responses.

    That said. As many have mentioned, the lesson plan sounds exactly like what I’ve seen in the nurseries my kids have gone to, other than a 10 minute lesson, which is too long for that age.

    Other than that, though, while plastic is not close to ideal, would it hurt your sweet girl for 2 hours each week? Nope. Not close.

    Comment by Julie P — January 25, 2008 @ 11:16 am

33. #31- Some of the things you mentioned are IMPORTANT and could actually have long term effects on a child. Food allergies- your an idiot not to address it. Plastic toys? Just don’t ask anyone else to implement something you’re not completely willing to come in and take care of yourself. Sure, you can ask (social suicide if you go forward with this particular plan), but then leave it alone.

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 11:21 am

34. That is to say “you’re” and idiot. But not you #31. Referring to parents who wouldn’t address actual, important issues. Obviously.

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 11:29 am

35. And that’s “an” idiot. Not “and” idiot. Holy cow. Why can’t we have robots do this stuff for us?

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 11:30 am

36. I think the schedule/lesson plan mostly sounds good. The nursery should have some kind of schedule like this, not just be a free-for-all. That said, I think you’d have to add about 10 minutes into the schedule to make it last until the parents get there — I would suggest adding it to play time. I also think 10 minutes is a little long for the lesson. Aim for 5. And like Susan M said, bubbles at the end are quite wonderful.

    I see a few problems with your supply list — the biggest one being (as other have pointed out), who’s going to pay for it? I don’t think tablecloths with toddlers are a great idea, but even if you can keep them from pulling it off the table, someone’s going to have to buy those tablecloths, and someone’s going to have to take them home and wash them every week. Someone’s going to have to purchase all those new toys, and be in charge of washing them. And someone’s going to have to bring those snacks every week (which are definitely going to be more expensive than what they’re having now).

    If you’re willing to provide the snacks, provide the tablecloths and toys, and be in charge of cleaning the tablecloths and toys every week, I think your plan will work just fine. I think it’s asking way too much of a nursery leader to do all of that. I’ve found that nursery leaders are pretty open to changing things if you’re helping, though. My sons are currently on a gluten free, casein free, soy free diet. I talked with the nursery leader about it, and volunteered to bring the snack every week (the grain part — she’s still bringing the fresh fruit). To begin with I talked to her about what they needed in a snack (for instance, no square crackers, since a couple of the kids don’t really chew their food, and those corners are not good in a small child’s throat). Then I brought in a few different things my kids could have to see what the other kids would eat. We figured out what the other kids would eat, and now I bring it every week, since it’s hard to find and much more expensive than the previous snacks. I also wanted them to use gluten-free play dough, so I bought it and brought it in to replace what they already had. They don’t mind using it, but asking them to shell out the money for it would have been (in my opinion) rude.

    Comment by Vada — January 25, 2008 @ 11:33 am

37. currently our ward has four nurseries (yes, 4) and is planning on making it five soon (yep, 5).

    My little buddy isn’t in nursery any longer, but just last sunday we walked past the tiny room where he had been assigned and he stated “that room scares me.”

    nice.

    artemis, your plan sounds wonderful… hope it works out in your ward.

    but personally, I don’t get the concept of not letting your child play somewhere because there are plastic toys.

    Comment by G — January 25, 2008 @ 11:34 am

38. Our nursery is cram-pack full o’ kids, most of them pre-articulate. Our leaders do an awesome job and alot of the style you’ve described is the same. The difference is that they have taken into account the difficulty of having a group of children together in a confined area for 2 hours and you really haven’t. Pinecone, seed, seashell, nature art is great for older two’s, almost three’s, yes. For an 18 month old? Generally not. You’ll have at least one kid rushed to an emergency room with a bean up their nose. That’s not pretty, trust me, I’ve seen it. Plastic is preferable for sanitization: take it from an ex-preschool teacher, you do not want to be the one who has to clean the wooden toys! Open- ended play is extremely possible even with the dreaded plastic for children who are more creative than any parent can be!
    My only complaint with nursery is that the leaders tend to want to do art projects that are a little too sophisticated for the age group they have, which is painfully evident by the number of projects that Lucky brings home that were obviously done by an adult.
    Also, if there was one thing I dreaded as a teacher, it was the Know-It-All Parent: the one who knew howw every child should be taught and wanted us to change our school/class to fit their preferences. Not that I didn’t love feedback and support, but there is a difference between being an advocate for your child and just being kind of a pain. If your calling was the nursery, then this would be great, but you’ve taken away the nursery leader’s authority in this calling. Why didn’t you talk to him first?
    Hero, i know what you mean about the biohazards. A parent has to have standards. It breaks my heart every time I see some kid with a syringe and it’s clueless parents just standing there…

    Comment by McMommy — January 25, 2008 @ 11:37 am

39. “wanted us to change our school/class to fit their preferences. Not that I didn’t love feedback and support, but there is a difference between being an advocate for your child and just being kind of a pain.”

    This reminds me of when our stake primary leaders decided we couldn’t have the children coloring “cartoon” looking pictures of Jesus because they didn’t want the kids to think he would pretend. And they couldn’t color anything else, like, say, animals, because that was too secular. I offered to let the children color any photos of Jesus the stake could supply.

    Anyway, until that insanity was ironed out, the children could only draw on blank paper. We wrote a theme at the top and then the kids drew (scribbled) their interpretation. Fine. It’s a good skill. Except for one exceptional child whose mother promptly removed him from nursery “because her child didn’t like to just scribble”. Bull crap. At that age your child only knows how to scribble. We were obviously wasting his amazing 19 month old talent and melting his brain. Maybe another parent would find coloring outlined pictures too restrictive to creativity. Maybe most parents would realize nursery is not a preschool, but a brief opportunity each week to introduce little ones to gospel instruction and class structure.

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 11:46 am

40. Again, that would be “Jesus WAS pretend” instead of “Jesus WOULD pretend”. When is that stupid robot going to get here?

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 11:48 am

41. Artemis, I love you, babe, but I have to say –chill out, mom. Nursery is two hours, once a week. She will not be scarred for life because the toys she plays with are plastic. There is a lot to be said for having structure in a nursery, and I do think kids suffer a bit when nursery is chaotic, but I’m going to go out on a limb and say that predictable routine whatever it is, and a kid she adores will go a lot farther than what toys she plays with. And don’t expect people to be happy about you charging in and telling them they are doing everything wrong if you aren’t willing to implement these things yourself.

    Comment by Heather O. — January 25, 2008 @ 11:58 am

42. When my kids were little, I totally drew the line at biohazards. Nuclear watse, used medical sharps: no; I put my foot down. My kids just could not play with them.

    Wow. You would NOT like our nursery.

    Comment by madhousewife — January 25, 2008 @ 11:58 am

43. just a thought on the other family. it sounds like this little girl and marigold are the only ones close to the same age. it may be good to think about the long-term impact this type of discussion will have on your relations with that family. marigold is young now, but in a very short time she will be friends with this other child and asking for ‘play dates.’ how is mom of the other little girl going to feel if they have plastic toys at home? will she be comfortable inviting you over? its great to advocate for your values, but where do you draw the line on imposing them on others?

    i also agree with other comments about not pushing a pre-arranged agenda on the nursery leader. i’ve found it much more effective to include the other person in a discussion about desired change and take a “one-down” approach - ask them the questions (i.e. what do you think we could do to improve our nursery?). also, have you gone in and observed the nursery how it now stands?

    Comment by hannah — January 25, 2008 @ 12:05 pm

44. Again–I think you are assuming alot if you view this plan as a change. As people in their comments have mentioned and as my experience has been, this is not a change. Why don’t you observe first before assuming that whatever they are doing is problematic?

    Comment by a spectator — January 25, 2008 @ 12:25 pm

45. I’m a nursery teacher right now. My wife and I do a pretty good job, IMO, and have a song, a little lesson and lots of play time.

    But if a parent brought some of these concerns to me I’d listen patiently, nod my head, smile, say thank you and then keep on doing exactly what we’re doing — plastic toys, gold fish crackers and all.

    My job is to let parents of young toddlers do their callings, enjoy Sunday school, priesthood and other classes while attempting to teach basic principals such as sharing, not hitting and not wiping boogars on their classmates while singing a few songs and teaching a very brief lesson they can sit still through.

    Nursery is not preschool. Bless you if you can make your little angels sit still for 30 minutes at a time.

    But my feeling is you’ll abandon any pretense of a super structured lesson plan after three weeks when Little Johnny pulls his pants off and swings them around his head.while Little Suzie screams at Decibel 3 for 25 minutes straight because she thinks her mommy and daddy have left her forever. Then when Little Bobby has a steaming pile of radioactive waste eating holes in your nasal passage and you can’t find his parents because they aren’t in the Gospel Doctrine class you thought they were and the Jones family decides to lie to you and dump their 15 month old twins on you because they simply can’t wait until their 18 months old you may change your idealized view of how to handle nursery and it’s plastic toys — as an aside, Fisher Price and the Little People Noah’s Ark is AWESOME!

    Good luck, Mrs. Waldorf.

    Now pass me the 4 pound bag of pretzels. This thread is going to get good.

    Comment by jared — January 25, 2008 @ 12:30 pm

46. Holy Schmoly, 45 comments on something I thought would be rather benign. Haven’t read them all, sorry–just got back from the park and some errands.

    First off, my apparently unforgivable snobbery–dude, people, I never said we were purists. We actually do have plastic items in our home. We are just trying to create what I feel is a more nurturing, less materialistic, and more creative play encouraging environment. And the situation I describe is a sort of ideal that I have no illusions will be compromised by reality. The Pres. & I have already talked about including some of the existing toys, though we’re trying to cut down on the amount of toys as much as change their quality. There are 3 wards’ worth of plastic toys and everybody uses everybody’s, so it really is a mountain of plastic.

    Second, we are doing this on the cheap. Remember that I said the materials list was a wish list, we won’t be getting everything, but I thought it would be helpful for people who were interested in it. We are getting some things donated, some things from the thrift store, and some things home made, several of those by me. And I will make them on a small budget.

    Third, before you go all ballistic on my choice, you might look around and notice that everyone has preferences about their parenting styles and the educational styles they want for their children. Parenting is a hot topic (duh) and everybody’s opinionated. So let me be a little opinionated and give me the benefit of the doubt without assuming that I’m being prima donna-ish or obnoxious about this. We were originally going to quietly opt-out, maybe only for 6 mos., see how it goes, etc., and now we are working out a way to get something more to our liking in a way that we hope will be attractive and non-offensive to everyone involved.

    It’s just an attempt to get outside the box. If you like the ideas, great, try them out. Or just some of them. Or not. And if you don’t, there’s really no need to condemn me. Those of you telling me to get over myself, I suggest the same to you. It goes both ways.

    Comment by Artemis — January 25, 2008 @ 12:50 pm

47. “I don’t even know what the heck a “Waldorf” is “

    I”m not quite sure which one we’re talking about here, but i can only think of a stuffy Muppet character, a pretentious structure designed to give patrons a sense of being elite, or an odd salad whose ingredients don’t make a lot of sense, but some people find to be an illumination in cooking. Probably because it was introduced by that elite structure and, therefore, must be delicious. Waldorf salad for all! I believe it is best and should be served at all ward dinners!

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 12:55 pm

48. I’m a bit shocked and saddened by the mean tone behind some of the responses.

    Me too.

    Your heart is in the right place, and I appluad you for standing up for what you believe is right for your child. However, the full scale of your plan may not be what’s best for your nursery, no matter how large or small. Implementing something as immediately structured where there has been none should be done in small stages to allow adjustment.

    While I’m also not a huge fan of plastic toys, in a breeding ground for bacteria like nursery, I’m all for it. I’d never purchase a plastic stove for my kid, but I’m not above letting him enjoy one that belongs to someone else. It’s never occured to me that this would be damaging to him in anyway, rather that he’s allowed to experience all kinds of different playthings that all have the potential to enhance his development. A child’s imagination turns those toys into whatever they chose them to be, anyway.

    Our son has autism, and I never placed him into nursery for many reasons, but the largest was the fact that our nursery had no structure, and our son requires it. However, our son is the only one with autism in our entire ward (and we have a large nursery). I didn’t feel it was fair to require them to completely re-tool their program to suit his special needs.

    We got lucky down the line when a close friend who is very familiar with our son was called for nursery, and we eased him into attendance with her. He went sporadically, but always had fun. Sometimes the chaos was overhwelming to him and he needed frequent breaks, but I firmly believe that the social envrionment was a necessity.

    I’m getting off track here, but I say just take baby steps. Pick one or two items from your list that are most important, and slowly introduce them. Over time, see if implementing more will work, and ease into it. Don’t sacrifice your beliefs, but maintain your sensitivity to others and their inclination to a more easygoing, free spirited kind of nursery. I’m not saying you’re uptight, I’m just saying relax your view a little. We all have to find a way to come together, and the last thing anyone would want is quiet resentment over something you intended only for good.

    Comment by Jill — January 25, 2008 @ 1:01 pm

49. Ok, for my two cents…

    Your lesson plan is almost identical to what my nursery does currently, and from the other posters that seems fairly common. So check out your nursery first and see what the do. If it is a chaotic free for all (which I doubt would be working with such a small nursery in the first place) then I definately think it is appropriate suggest more structure.

    I also question the table cloth, I think it is a nice thought, but might not work practically.

    I agree that 10 minutes is a little long for the lesson. In our nursery, they teach the lesson while they eat snacks, and it works out really well.

    Oh yeah, and for snacks, DO NOT RECOMMEND NUTS, ok, maybe if it is just Marigold and the other girl and neither is allergic, but most pediatricians recommend waiting until kids are 3 to introduce nuts, and most nursery age kids are under three. Many of the kids may have never had nuts before, and you do not want to be the one to introduce them before the parents are ready too. (This is my little soap box because my daughter is allergic to peanuts. I found out before she was in nursery, but if I hadn’t found out yet, and the nursery had served her nuts for the first few times (kids don’t react the 1st time) then it could have been very serious!)

    I like wood toys and all, but honestly, what is the difference in creativity between a wooden toy car and a plastic toy car? Yes, some toys are unimaginative, and probably it is more common among plastic then wood toys, but that doesn’t mean all plastic toys are horrible. And even if the ones in your nursery are, 2 hours isn’t going to ruin her creativity. Like other said, unless you want to take care of the cost and sanitizing concerns yourself, then I would leave that alone.

    I think that is all, but mostly, I wouldn’t recommend overhauling the entire program. First see how things work now, then make a few suggestions (and offer help) for the things that you think are the most problematic, be it lack of structure, or unhealthy snacks, etc. But DON’T try to micromanage the nursery leader, they need some flexibility too.

    Oh yeah, lastly, bubbles at the end of class are awesome

    Comment by april — January 25, 2008 @ 1:02 pm

50. Honestly, my son was in nursery for two hours a week. It didn’t bother me that his toys in there didn’t foster creativity or whatever. It was two hours a week.

    He’s a well-adjusted and bright boy who is showing no ill effects from his two hours a week in nursery. What he did learn, and what was important to me, was a basic understanding of who Jesus is.

    That’s what church is for. To give a basic understanding of Jesus. And nursery did that, despite having plastic toys and a rather “flexible” schedule. I send him to a nice preschool to help him develop in the more worldly ways.

    Comment by Miranda — January 25, 2008 @ 1:07 pm

51. OK one more thing,
    I don’t think you are snobby and all, but I can see how if you just handed your nursery leader your “wish list,” they might think you are and write you off right away. But from your last post, it sounds like you are going about this is a pretty non-offensive way, so you should be fine as long as you are willing to compromise a little. And I do agree that too many toys is bad, so getting rid of some of the less desirable plastic toys is definately a good idea.

    Comment by april — January 25, 2008 @ 1:10 pm

52. The Nursery/Sunbeam manual is online so you can take a look at it. I remember that I was actually pretty impressed with it and wish more teachers/leaders would look more closely and follow its suggestions. The lessons are centered around the creation and helping kids discover how nature and the world were created for them by Heavenly Father. Use of natural materials as visual aids is encouraged, and I love the way they integrate spiritual examples with things kids can understand. For example, the lesson on water includes a segment on how we use water for baptisms and the sacrament. The lesson manual and the Friend archive (also available online) have a lot of good material for teachers to use.

    Like others have said, it would probably be a good idea to make a few suggestions and step back to let others do their job. In my experience, Waldorf methods are usually for preschoolers, right? There is a big difference between 4 or 5s and 18 month olds in ability, attention span, and safety. I’d rather have my kid sucking on a plastic horse than a pinecone. When I was the Primary President I discovered that the nursery leader had helped the kids make peanut-butter and birdseed covered pinecones for their lesson on birds. It was a nice idea, but there was a huge mess to clean up and transporting the projects home was difficult too.

    Nursery is not preschool. It is a two-hour (or less) church class that not only helps parents fulfill their callings, but helps children learn social skills and to start gaining a testimony of Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. I wish more teachers would remember that.

    Comment by FoxyJ — January 25, 2008 @ 1:11 pm

53. Artemis,
    No one is critiquing your parenting style. This is about you obviously thinking the people in the nursery are clueless. Give them a break. Nothing you have said makes anyone think the people serving selfelssly in the nursery are not nurturing, encouraging, creative, or that they are pushing materialism.
    On a side note, there is nothing inherent in wood that will somehow make your child less greedy, more creative, and want to use a credit card less when they are older. Wood toys are very often made in China too:)

    Comment by mami — January 25, 2008 @ 1:15 pm

54. I have a great respect for Waldorf principles and practices. Two of my favorite children are attending a Waldorf school and it’s wonderful. The standards are high, and it works better for people who are willing to volunteer to keep those standards. (These children have no TV in their home, at the request of the school. It’s great for them.)

    Not everyone will acquiesce to all the Waldorf principles, and the goals of nursery and Waldorf schools are somewhat different. Still it’s worth a look to see what can be adapted into the nursery program.

    I was a nursery leader in the 80’s, and I am a big fan of structuring the time. The older children respond a lot better to structured time than the newer children, so we divided our class between the children who were going to advance into Sunbeams the next January, and the children who would remain in nursery. The older kids went to the primary room and had a short singing time with the primary music leaders, when they had a break between their sharing time schedules. It was fun and worship, and it gave the nursery kids a bit of practice in what would be expected in their near future. We divided the children for class time as well, which lasted about 15 minutes. The rest of the activities were done with all children together.

    What you can do is going to be driven by a lot of things you may not control, such as what the presidency will go along with, how many children you have and their ages, how many assistants you have to divide classes, your budget, etc. We ran our nursery of up to 18 children with two or three adults. For a while it was me and another young couple with a newborn, which meant that they tag-teamed on the newborn care. We had a supportive presidency, and we did what we could manage to fill our calling the best we could.

    We did follow the axiom that, in volunteer service, the person giving the service ultimately gets to decide how to do it.

    Comment by Mommie Dearest — January 25, 2008 @ 1:15 pm

55. Why are plastic toys less nurturing and more materialistic? I get it if they’re from TV or can only be played with “one way” but other than that, I’m not sure why a plastic kitchen is worse than a wooden kitchen (other than aesthetics and durability). Imagination-wise, they would be the same. And sanitation wise, way better, although with only 2 kids, that’s less of an issue.

    You’re very lucky to have such a small nursery when you have this much invested in it.

    Lesson plan looks good, but as you say, not very different from current guidelines.

    I would RUN AWAY from tablecloths, ceramic pitchers, salt dough, seashells, and pine cones. The clean up would be a nightmare, especially if you get boys, and NO NUTS EVER. I’m very surprised that’s a suggestion, actually, although I’m assuming that’s a copy/paste thing you did, and not something you would actually advocate. And the seeds thing baffles me too. Choking hazard galore - I wouldn’t bring pumpkin seeds into a nursery unless I wanted to get released STAT.

    Enjoy your new calling as a nursery leader. You’ll be great.

    Comment by The Wiz — January 25, 2008 @ 1:25 pm

56. Artemis-

    You may have intended this post to be a discussion on the benefits of a Waldorf style nursery, but the way you presented it was a tad…snobbish. It’s the only word I can think of. Your ideas are fine. There’s also nothing wrong with wanting the best for your child. But if you could just step back, read what you wrote, see that even Heather O. (#41) was a little confounded, perhaps you’ll see that your delivery was in error. Not the idea.

    Comment by cheryl — January 25, 2008 @ 1:25 pm

57. Okay ladies, cut Artemis some slack. From reading a recent post, she and her child have been through a very disturbing experience and if she feels overly protective of her daughter, it is totally understandable. If the child is a first child too, it’s totally understandable. Suggest what’s appropriate to ask, some of the considerations involved, etc., but no need to attack!

    Comment by Anon — January 25, 2008 @ 1:38 pm

58. I’m so glad you posted this. It brought much-needed humor into my day

    If I were your ward’s nursery leader, I’d be quite happy for you to “quietly opt-out”, as you put it. Although it is so sweet of you to subject your daughter to the horrors of nursery so that poor, wretched other child can have a friend.

    Comment by WJ — January 25, 2008 @ 1:40 pm

59. “We were originally going to quietly opt-out,”…” now we are working out a way to get something more to our liking”

    You’re right. Nothing snobbish or elitist about that.

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 1:46 pm

60. Cheryl, yah, I can see how the delivery could’ve been seen as snobbish. That’s the problem of writing a post late at night, I suppose. Plus, I assumed a certain background knowledge both of my bent for avoiding plastic (non-biodegradable, pthalates, etc.) and of my (I like to believe) relative open-mindedness, non-zealotry, etc. In fact, as I was going to bed, I was thinking, you know, a couple of things I said might be taken a little off…. But I was tired, so I didn’t go back for a rewrite. I will try to work on my delivery.

    A couple other points–the nursery manual suggests a 10 minute lesson. I went with that. It also suggests 35 min. of free play. Mine is a little less, but my experience is that if you’re doing songs and their actions with the kids (both in song time and during the transition songs/poems), the kids like it and like to imitate it. The craft time might be a little long, but they’re simple, open-ended crafts and the lesson plan acknowledges that younger kids might need something else.

    Like I said, the alternative lesson plan is very, very close to what is in the manual. I actually think mine is a little more toddler friendly, but I can accept that not everyone agrees.

    There is no peanut butter in the lesson/craft plan. Pinecones with ribbons, not PB & birdseed.

    Oh, and I’ve had very good success with pinecones as a toy, even with Marigold being as young as she is. Don’t get the super spiky ones, certainly, but the adult supervising the getting of them can feel them out. Dried corncobs work too. And they’re cheap–just save them and dry them out.

    We don’t have to do the nuts. We probably won’t. Actually, that’s why the pumpkin seeds work well–less allergy risk–and with the small adult/child ratio we have, we can monitor potential choking. With a bigger group, you probably wouldn’t want that. It’d still be nice to have a protein, though. Often kids acting up just need a little water, a little protein, or a little rest.

    And the (sturdy) ceramic pitcher, (smoothish, sturdy) seashells and other things I’ve suggested–I’ve seen them work fine in a toddler setting. Yes, you need to have adult supervision–but that’s the thing, the adult will be pouring, supervising, etc. If you feel there are too many kids, then adjust the plan.

    We’ve also talked about (me) team teaching with the nursery leader. And actually, one of the problems is the lack of routine to our current nursery and the fact that he doesn’t have an assistant. Which I mentioned first thing. If we can’t get him an assistant soon, we’ll probably have to release him anyway–one man with two little girls? Not that I don’t trust him (and DH would probably be attending/helping often anyway), but the guidelines require it. We’re looking at possibly getting a couple to do it.

    Comment by Artemis — January 25, 2008 @ 1:47 pm

61. RE #53 AHK! peanut butter covered pinecones? Back to my nut allergy soap box, peanut allergies (I don’t know about other nuts) are not just from eating them. That is actually how I found out my daughter was allergic, she got about a 1/4 tsp of peanut butter and smeared it on her neck - then broke out in hives.

    Comment by april — January 25, 2008 @ 1:48 pm

62. Artemis-
    I loved your comment about how often kids acting up just needed water, protien or a little rest. I wish I had known that when my class of 18 two year olds were following me down the street yelling the F word because one kid’s parents had said it in front of him the night before. Or with the kid who would routinely bite anyone who came near him. Or with the little girl who would purposely pee on the floor when she didn’t get her way. Although, I must say that in the last case, a glass of water would really have been akin to a loaded gun.
    Sorry, not to the point, I know. It just made me laugh a bit…

    Comment by McMommy — January 25, 2008 @ 1:59 pm

63. I don’t get the whole “disability to inspire creative play” with certain toys. Toddlers are some of the most creative people you can ever meet. They can turn anything into anything they want.

    One of my favorite nursery kids was the girl who wanted the lights off all the time so she could “put on a show.” Then she’d dance around the room with her “butterfly,” which was actually a robotic-looking dragon thing, singing.

    Comment by Susan M — January 25, 2008 @ 2:01 pm

64. Artemis,

    We homeschool using the Waldorf methodology and, though I didn’t finish it, I began the teacher training when we lived in Germany. I haven’t read all the comments yet but what you wrote about the toy issue reminded me of something Donna Simmons, a Waldorf teacher, engaged Anthroposophist, and Waldorf homeschooler wrote in her book “Kindergarten with your Three to Six Year Old”:

    “In the line with the desire to encourage creative play, one would want to provide a child with toys which support this. Going to your local ToysRUs or WalMart is hardly going to fit the bill-or might it?

    “I in no way wish to slight the dedicated and hardworking artisans and craftspeople who provide beautifully crafted toys made out of lovely materials….But, well…there’s a tad of Waldorf snobbery which occasionally rears its ugly head when one is discussing children’s toys and I don’t wish to feed this. Sure, it’s great to have gorgeous hand-made wooden and woolen toys, and the use of natural materials is certainly important, having, as it does, a positive effect on the young child’s senses. But–and this is a big but-the children are not going to be ruined if they have a few plastic toys!

    “The point is-or should be-that a young child’s toys should allow him the freedom to imitate what he sees and experiences. Thus his most important toys are not necessarily even toys at all. Real tools which can be used for real or pretend work, as well as dressing up are some of the most important playthings a child can have. For the latter, your local charity shop is a treasure trove if only you can remember to think in terms of props and po
    ssibilities rather than themed, set costumes.”

    She goes on to talk about how she had some Lego and Playmobile for her boys. But the point behind the Waldorf theory and toys is that they should feed and inspire the imagination. No wonder some kids love those plastic kitchens-its a toy that allows both imitation and free play possibilities. We certainly cannot afford all the lovely Waldorf toys so we buy what we can afford and supplement with quality, imaginative, open-ended non-Waldorf options. We ask our relatives to think of open ended toys like Legos and those without lights, sound or other kinds of gimmicks when they buy our kids presents.

    When I first investigated Waldorf I was enamored with the toys and trappings and had a hard time understanding the impulse behind these things. Now that I do, I am no longer concerned with my kids playing with the odd McDonalds Happy Meal toy now and again. They get there use out of it and then it magically disappears.

    My suggestion would be to make it really simple and not worry about having everything in your list. Maybe buy or make some playsilks (or you could use everyday, ordinary scarves) for Marigold (my children absolutely adore them-best toy ever) in varying sizes and bring those to the nursery. Kids that age can spend hours playing with that stuff. Bring pinecones, nuts, stones, and other natural outdoor things. Go to the thrift store and get cheap odds and ends and make use of the used toys that have imaginative possibilities.

    Its the idea behind the toys that makes Waldorf what it is. When I was the primary chorister I taught using Waldorf principles and it was fantastic. Nurturing the whole child is a lot harder but very rewarding. Boy, I wish you were in my ward! I think I’m the only Waldorfer in this area!

    Comment by KDC — January 25, 2008 @ 2:04 pm

65. I haven’t read the all the comments but would like to respond to the mean-spiritedness of some (and parts) of them.

    My home is full of plastic toys (perhaps even mountains, I swear they breed), I’m only vaguely aware of what Waldorf is all about. And Artemis has been nothing but kind and gracious when Marigold has played (and played and played) in my home. She has high standards, she’s very concerned about these things, but she is not a snob. In fact, I’ve always been very impressed by how Christ-like she is in the example she sets. And the truth of the matter is, in her gentle way, by example, but never by being condescending, or preachy, or “greener than thou” she has inspired me to do better for our planet, and better for my kids.

    I think more about the toys that come into my home (I never buy toys, where do they come from?), I buy more organics (though not all, not even close), I read labels more carefully (and still buy goldfish). I take my own bags to the grocery store (most of the time). And none of it is because I’m afraid she’ll snub me or because she brow beat me.

    I admit, it can be hard to be around someone who expects so much from herself, because she doesn’t let herself slid on so many of the things that I do let myself slide on. And some of her standards I don’t even necessary agree with (or know enough about to know if I agree). But that doesn’t make it her fault that I’m sometimes uncomfortable by her standards and knowledge.

    Just as many people came to Sister Beck’s defense (perhaps rightly)(to some degree) because she set the bar so high, I’m feel the same urge here. Artemis’s bar is high, it’s true. You may not agree with her standards. Perhaps she could have worded her original post more carefully (though i didn’t feel the response to it many of you seem to have had). But being snide and dismissive and sarcastic in response to someone’s opinion, someone kind and generous and as non- judgmental as Artemis, says far more about you than it does about her.

    And you all might consider if that’s really the type of person you want to be.

    Comment by fMhLisa — January 25, 2008 @ 2:04 pm

66. whenever i voice my opinions about how someone else is doing their job (for example, RS pres) shortly after, i get that calling. i would have never given this to a nursery leader.

    there isn’t anything wrong with wanting the best for your kid, but you have to realize that this is not a preschool, this is not something that your child will even have memories of, and probably won’t care if you have natural baskets with pastel colored toys. it is two hours a week, where someone, hopefully voluntarily, has said they will watch your child so that you and your husband can go to your classes and fulfill your callings.

    these are great ideas, just temper them a bit to realize you are not dealing with an education based nursery leader, who is probably doing the best they can with what they know.

    would love to hear how this all pans out. and you’re darn lucky there isn’t a ton of kids in nursery. this would never ever go over. especially the more expensive snacks and the tablecloth. why do we even have a tablecloth in RS?? never could understand that. what does it do for the lesson?? usually its some old thing that has been in the closet for decades….

    Comment by Terina — January 25, 2008 @ 2:13 pm

67. Most Churches devote many more resources to their Nursery and Primary programs than do the LDS Church. Our children’s spiritual education deserves our best efforts, which means implementing a schedule, and making sure their toys are clean and safe. Parents should be required to pay a small fee to replenish toys and supplies for their nursery children. “Thank you’s” would be nice too. Educating children is an important task that should be acknowledged and appreciated.

    In other words, nursery _should_ be more like pre-school, and not just free babysitting for two hours. Same with Primary.

    Comment by ECS — January 25, 2008 @ 2:13 pm

68. Are other wards using these toys? Because then the sanitation issue would be much larger.

    Comment by The Wiz — January 25, 2008 @ 2:21 pm

69. The kids I have at home are all in YM/YW. However, we still have a large basket of Lincoln Logs for when the VT comes by with her two little ones. Out of all the toys that have come into and out of our home.. those are the only ones that have lasted.

    Nonetheless, those Lincoln Logs have many miles left in’m. While they do allow for creativity, not sure today’s mothers of toddlers would appreciate them in nursery. dunno. There is no choking hazard, but the larger pieces can make a pretty good club in the fist of an 18-mos-old.

    My hat’s off to Artemis for having vision and courage to state it (I don’t really have a hat - it’s more like a winter cap with a pompon on top).

    Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 25, 2008 @ 2:26 pm

70. Parents should be required to pay a small fee

    Would 10% do it?

    Educating children is an important task

    For parents to take care of all week.

    Our children’s spiritual education deserves our best efforts

    And this is to be accomplished with wooden toys. Or maybe this:
    nursery _should_ be more like pre-school

    Is your child’s preschool giving her the spiritual education she deserves?

    implementing a schedule…not just free babysitting for two hours

    Is anyone disagreeing with this?

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 2:30 pm

71. um, i think you should call up the first presidency and let them know you KNOW how to run things better. and prepare all of the organic snacks and homemade wooden toys yourself. that is the best idea for someone as “forward” thinking as you. honestly, it sounds like you have too much time on your hands, and have never been a nursery leader either.

    Comment by annie — January 25, 2008 @ 2:33 pm

72. #69- love your name. self aggrandizement looks great on you.

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 2:34 pm

73. i don’t disagree that nursery should be more like preschool, or that Artemis may have legitimate concerns over how the nursery is run in her ward. The thing is, these leaders are not trained teachers, they are volunteers in a thankless job. If someone wants to overhaul nursery, it seems like the best place to start would be actually talking to the nursery leader, not going to the primary president. Maybe she did, but in her post it doesn’t sound that way at all. And, yeah, most of us don’t really know her, or what her concerns with nursery are, so when the major stumbling block presented is plastic toys and how offensive they are, it seems a little (or maybe alot, to some) snobby and extreme. And I say this as a mother who has often been accused of being snobby and extreme.

    Comment by McMommy — January 25, 2008 @ 2:35 pm

74. Artemis - it sounds like you have a great plan and are going about it in a productive way.

    It sounds like we both have the same goals for our kids, We want them to thrive - not just survive.

    Comment by Maria — January 25, 2008 @ 2:35 pm

75. Oh, and I wanted to add that I think it is great that you are trying to make a difference in Nursery. I personally believe nursery and primary are two of the most important institutions in the church and would definitely benefit from a more holisitic approach.

    Comment by KDC — January 25, 2008 @ 2:36 pm

76. #74- which sets you apart how? Pray tell.

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 2:36 pm

77. sol — you already have more than 10 snarky comments on this thread. You might want to go back and re-read what you have said, instead of poking nonstop at Artemis or anyone who is even vaguely supportive of her. And how did Mary M in #69 elicit such sarcasm?

    Comment by RE — January 25, 2008 @ 2:46 pm

78. Artemis–I can see the pinecones and ceramic pitcher working with only two kids. Muffin LOVES pinecones, and since it’s just us, I can easily keep him from eating them and gently take them away when he decides “smash” is next on his repertoire. Same with other stuff–he plays with a colored glass orb b/c I wanted him to feel its smooth heaviness, etc etc. I don’t think those objects would work in a large nursery, but in yours? Probably great. Just see if you can find a little dust buster :). Do avoid any peanut butter, for any reason. We had a medical student stay at our house for an “away” rotation who’d go into anaphylactic shock if he typed on a keyboard someone typed on who’d eaten a PB&J without washing up.

    I am sure your intent, as always, is good. I’d just suggest gently approaching the leader and the other parent while bringing up the ideas, rather than, say, handing a printout to the nursery leader without a lead-in.

    As for the plastic toys, I hear you regarding daunting “mountains”. Muffin received LOTS of toys from wonderful, generous people sharing their happiness with us. If I put oodles on the floor with him, he just looks confused. Why not rotate the toys? It seems to work well with Muffin (OK, he’s tiny, but still). The rotation means he still gets to play with the things people have shared with us, and he doesn’t get overwhelmed.

    Comment by janet — January 25, 2008 @ 2:51 pm

79. sol–SO glad someone else find Waldorf salad vaguely alarming. I never have figured out what walnuts are doing, lurking amongst perfectly happy apples.

    Comment by janet — January 25, 2008 @ 2:52 pm

80. sol - she’s a hero, Mary M roxors

    thanks RE

    gentle reminder - when we’re busy pointing our finger at someone else - we’ve got three other fingers pointing back at us.

    Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 25, 2008 @ 2:57 pm

81. Waldorf in and of itself might not be snobby (just trying to elevate learning), but it becomes snobby and elitist when parents are uncomprimising in a setting like nursery(two hours a week for under 3 yr olds). It sounds to me like Artemis is a lot more reasonable than her post suggests (”opt out”?!) I guess everyone’s decided to let loose like it’s every snobb they’ve ever met. Not very fair.

    Comment by cj douglass — January 25, 2008 @ 3:01 pm

82. I sort of figured it was delivery/first child deal. I’m not worried as much about snobbiness as about how living a life as uptight as the original post *sounded* would be really exhausting. I think I’ve mentioned this before, but with my four kids, worry has followed roughly this path:

    Kid #1 Should I allow pacifiers? what about latex? what about bad habits? what if it falls on the floor and I have no access to boiling water? what about the unknown risks? psychological damage? scrofula, scabbies, or ebola?

    Kid #2 Did that pacifier fall on the floor? I’ll just wash it right off with soap and warm water

    Kid #3 Oops, your binky fell in the trash can. Quick check to see that nothing overtly toxic is in the trash; quick swipe through my OWN mouth to suck off visible detrius, which is then spat back into the trash, give binky back to child

    Kid #4 Oh Honey. I sure hope you can fish that binky out of the aquarium by yourself, ’cause I really don’t want to get off my butt to come help you . . . .

    Like I said, it’s about tired.

    Comment by hero — January 25, 2008 @ 3:11 pm

83. #77 Maybe 5 or 6 snarkies. But let’s not pigeon-hole all my comments because you took offense to some. #39 was a story. Didn’t point it at anyone, except to use someone else’s comment as a jumping off point (in agreement). #47 Was a joke. C’mon.

    Many of my comments were corrections to previous posts. Were those snarky as well? Poking nonstop? At anyone who is even vaguely supportive of her? A bit of an exaggeration, don’t you think?

    And, lastly, my comment to #69 had nothing to do with what she had written. It had to do with her name choice. I mean, calling yourself Mary Magdalene or The Virgin Mother or any other revered figure from the scriptures is a little grandiose and irreverent.

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 3:14 pm

84. I have sat with my son in nursery for the last few months trying to get him to want to go (he still doesn’t). Our nursery follows something very similar to your plan and when weather permits, we often take the kids to the adjacent park for nature walks or out to collect leaves or something. There is a very designated activity for most of the class. But an 18 month old (my son) just isn’t as ready for that kind of rigidity where as some of the three year olds are. I’ve noticed that nursery works best when there are a least a few parents involved with the younger kids. I don’t want to be the one dropping my screaming kid off for the free babysitting. However, I am not expecting my kid to walk out of class quoting scriptures. It’s just not in his capacity right now. I think they should raise the nursery age to two anyway. But that’s just because I’ll probably be in there until way past then.

    Regarding toys: some of the toys in our nursery are pretty shabby looking. I wouldn’t mind doing some sort of toy-roundup. Ditch the old and broken ones and ask for donations of new toys. Plastic doesn’t worry me much, but those race cars are looking pretty germy.

    I think that as long as the parents of the other little girl and you are willing to work with the nursery leaders (or be the nursery leaders) you should go for your ideas. If other kids join the nursery, make sure their parents are equally involved and on board.

    Comment by Julia — January 25, 2008 @ 3:16 pm

85. And “Sol” is the center of a heliocentric universe.

    Just sayin’.

    Comment by hero — January 25, 2008 @ 3:18 pm

86. You know, I think if some of the people posting here understood where Artemis is coming from then they wouldn’t think she was snobby. Since I understand where she is coming from on this I don’t. I think she is truly and sincerely concerned about her child and how the nursery environment will affect her.

    As for opting out of nursery…why not? My mom did with us. Because we always got sick from all the other kids she kept us with her until we reached primary age. Thats the perogative of being a mom-you have to do what your gut tells you to do.

    The issue of toys and Waldorf philosophy is not merely about being eco or environmentally safe (although with all the lead contamination and recalls of many toys made incoming China in the past few months I think we should be a bit concerned). As the quotation in my first post in this thread indicates, the idea behind having natural fibers and wood in toys is that it nurtures the childs senses. There is a lot to this idea-but suffice it to say Steiner, the founder of Waldorf philosophy, believed that these natural materials foster a sense of warmth and comfort. Also, such toys are not rigid-meaning they are more malleable and open ended therefore fostering imaginative play more than, say, a Barbie (Barbie is as rigid as it gets with tons of details and so not as easy to use in creative play).

    This is why Artemis feels the way she does about plastic toys. I agree with her-but I also think that once a week won’t hurt a child who has a good and wholesome foundation at home-as I am sure Marigold does. I agree that I am also baffled by the anger her post has engendered.

    Comment by KDC — January 25, 2008 @ 3:22 pm

87. #85 Well, thank you! (blushing)

    Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 3:24 pm

88. thank you for reminding me why this blog is the most insipid, ridiculous, and nauseating blog in the blogosphere.

    as an lds mother who works full-time and actually understands feminism, i am embarassed that somehow this blog has begun to represent feminists in the church.

    grow up.

    Comment by noelle — January 25, 2008 @ 3:31 pm

89. KDC-
    Not one single person has obected to Artemis opting out.
    In general, I think people have seen her other posts and/or know her and are not suspecting the worst. My guess? She’s a great person and wonderful mom. I think, however, we should be honest in how she is coming across. We are all virtual people here–imagine how offensive it would be if she approaced actual -in-her-ward nursery leaders this way. I think she wanted feed back for a reason.
    End of gossiping “behind” Artemis’ back.

    Comment by mami — January 25, 2008 @ 3:33 pm

90. I don’t know why people are so mean about this post. Artemis already said that she has the support of her primary president (in fact, that’s who recommended they could change the program). Personally, I would love ideas like this for teaching nursery. The prayer poem is so cute, I plan to use this for my children. It could take some time to change the toys, and there could be a need to bring other treats from home, but those are for Artemis and her primary leaders to figure out. She’s just throwing out suggestions, and letting other people use them if it works for them. I rhink that too many kids can’t think for themselves nowadays. I loved that my mom would pick up things like cattails and pinecones when she took me for a walk and let me feel them and play with them. To those who say that children won’t remember at that age, the only memories I have of that age are when people used tools like the Waldorf method. More senses allow for more memory.

    Comment by Tonya — January 25, 2008 @ 3:41 pm

91. noelle, I bet you just spread sunshine where ever you go. You are an example to us all.

    Comment by fMhLisa — January 25, 2008 @ 3:41 pm

92. lucky you, Lisa. Able to sit and spread additional sunshine. Lucky, lucky, you.

    You are an example to us all.

    Comment by anon for this one — January 25, 2008 @ 3:44 pm

93. LOL How is this gossiping since she can read everything we are writing? I think I was honest in saying what I thought she would do (in my much earlier post). From the sounds of her post I don’t think she did approach anyone in that way, i.e. “plastic, yuck!” nor would she do so. She was just venting to people she thought would understand where she was coming from. So in case they didn’t I was attempting to help out.

    That is also why, if you read my previous posts, I suggested that she simplify her ideas and not worry so much about “the list” and other requirements and lighten up on the worrying about plastics. Maybe the nursery leader will be irritated-maybe not. Or maybe Artemis could request to kind of co-lead with her.

    If it were me I probably wouldn’t bother and would stick my kid in nursery anyway. But thats just me. Having five kids has taught me that some things are definitely more important than others and nursery (or primary for that matter) are not big on my list. I figure its only once a week.

    If it were me-and I could be in charge of nursery, I would do away with most of the required structure. Free play, snack, some songs, and a gospel story. Thats it. .-)

    Comment by KDC — January 25, 2008 @ 3:47 pm

94. So, okay, plastic. First of all, I’m not so sure that our nursery toys are regularly cleaned. So regardless of how this works out, we should probably work up a routine for that and I’ll put it on my list of things to discuss at our next Primary presidency chat. Which, since there are only 2 of us, is what it usually is.

    For me, avoiding plastic toys is about environmentalism, health, and aesthetics. In this case, I wouldn’t be buying new plastic toys (and thus encouraging the plastic industry as well as exacerbating the health problems of the people in China or wherever who make them without OSHA protections), so that’s not really a problem–in fact, you can argue quite well (and I would respect your argument) that it is more environmentally friendly to use the existing plastic toys than chuck them in the landfill, since plastic toys tend to be made with polymers that make them relatively unrecyclable (at least, that’s what I’ve been told) and these chemicals leach into the ground and groundwater. But I don’t buy them new. I’m having a hard time finding a non-pvc duckie, let alone an actual rubber one–anybody know where to find one?

    The health issues are with the pthalates and lead and other toxic substances in either plastic or its paint (which were all over the news before the holidays, yes?) and children regularly put these things in their mouths. Chlorine kills the germs, hand sanitizers kill most of them (and creates sanitizing-resistant germs with the rest), but even the chlorine and alcohol and that other dastardly ingredient (can’t remember what it’s called) in sanitizers are known to have negative health consequences, particularly in children, so while 2 hours a week probably won’t do harm (yah, I know), why encourage it when there are gentler options? Gentler options being to use natural, non-toxic materials to both make the toys and clean them. Soap and hot water are great (and would work for plastic, but as I say, I don’t think they’re being washed at all, and as others have pointed out, it would be more work and ward volunteers might feel resentful being asked to do that). Vinegar is a great sanitizer. Bean bags can be made with rice or corn and then microwaved for a minute or two–the steam that comes out effectively kills any germs. So you really could go either way with that, if you were choosy about the kinds of plastics you used. I have already offered to provide laundry services for the cloth items we use, since it’s my big idea.

    And yes, plastic toys can encourage creativity if they’re the right kind. Legos, etc. (thanks for pointing that out, KDC). If you can, as a good friend of mine says, choose toys that keep the play in the child, not the toy. If you keep the toys relatively simple, they can turn into anything. Anything can be anything, as they say, but it’s much easier to get an imagination going if things aren’t too structured, either in form or function. Our nursery seems to have a lot of the non-creative kind–they flash and make noise, but are pretty much limited in what they can do or be. It’s true that open-ended plastic toys are not terribly hard to find, but they’re not exactly in the majority either. The other problem is that many of these toys are designed for “early learning”, which I feel is developmentally inappropriate for toddlers and which I think Waldorf is right on about. Toys marketed for 1s & 2s are usually better for 3s & 4s, etc.

    But then there are the aesthetics. Natural fibers (wood, cotton, wool, etc.) are simply gentler to touch and look at and the good quality natural fiber toys tend to be made with more attention to good aesthetics and a desire to make them beautiful. I think that’s important. I want my daughter to develop a taste for beauty, to appreciate and enjoy the texture of things in her hands or on her body, to make beautiful things out of beautiful, natural materials, to see beauty in nature around her, which I can encourage by giving her nature objects to play with and having her play in nature. I feel that all of this nurtures her and her soul more than lots of plastic toys. And it all starts with little, mostly harmless choices we make when she is small, because she is small and doesn’t have the ability or opportunity to discriminate for herself.

    Yes, these kinds of toys are either more expensive or take more time and effort to make, but then necessarily we have less of them (less materialism) and the ones we make have extra meaning to ourselves and to our children (who will really love that we love them to make something ourselves, even if it is simple and funny looking, like the really simple cat I crocheted–rather pathetic looking, I think, but endearing in its homeiness, and Marigold loves to kiss it and make it meow). And we and our children tend to take better care of them, thus fostering senses of care, responsibility, and respect.

    Note: Waldorf cites the “living quality” of the toys as being more in sync with a young child’s spiritual nature, which is an interesting idea and really informs the practice, though I find it a little too new-agey or something for me to actually buy into it. If you’re interested in more, I did include a link to the Wiki page on Waldorf education, which has links to outside sources.

    I “went” to the primary pres. because we talk several times a week and “we” are in charge of running the primary and the nursery. In fact, even if we were a fully staffed presidency, I’ve still been delegated to oversee the nursery. I am very concerned about approaching the nursery leader in a good way, which is one of the reasons why I _didn’t_ bring it up earlier, deciding to opt out for awhile until I figured things out. We’d told people ahead of time we felt she was a little young to start nursery at 18 mos. and everybody was fine with it, no boats rocked or anything. But then the little friend issue came up. I’m still trying to figure out the best approach, something along the lines of, “we want to try an experiment, something a little different, but could be a lot of fun”. I’m also going to talk to the other mom to see what she wants and if she has any objections or preferences. Or really great ideas that I haven’t thought of.

    So now I’m thinking maybe we should figure out the nursery leader situation first, and if we need to call other people (and the current nursery leader has another calling anyway), then we can call it “training” and either way I can play nursery leader assistant for awhile. Those of you who suggested easing into it, thanks, I think that’s a good idea–it probably would’ve been inevitable, but it seems like a good idea to plan it that way.

    Comment by Artemis — January 25, 2008 @ 3:51 pm

95. Oh, and yes mami, someone did connect opting out to snobbery. I was addressing comment number 81. They thought opting out was a bit over the top unless I am reading this post wrong.

    Comment by KDC — January 25, 2008 @ 3:53 pm

96. Artemis,

    I just read your long treatise. My only reaction as a parent of 4 is Huh?

    Toy materials are just that… materials. I have a hard time believing that somehow a material that is “natural” will get any different reaction from a childs spirit kind of smacks of witchcraft to be honest. Or maybe neo paganism. trust me it is not more spiritual when one of my kids hits the other with a wood toy vs a plastic toy

    I am not trying to be mean just pointing out that these are some seriously weird ideas about toys.

    Comment by bbell — January 25, 2008 @ 4:01 pm

97. Hemp cloth stuffed animals. Then if the nursery gets really stressful, you can smoke an iguana and feel ever so much better. I actually agree that natural stuff is somehow less satanic, even though it is new agey and woo-woo. I LOATHE McD toys and the slave masters who oversee their creation. So sorry to Artemis if I my teasing you sounded like an attack; just trying to mellow you out, m’dear; something not really my place or my job. Apologies.

    Comment by hero — January 25, 2008 @ 4:06 pm

98. bbell, I said I didn’t buy into the spiritual thing. But I do think the aesthetic environment we provide our children does affect them and it’s worth it to me to make thoughtful choices about it.

    Comment by Artemis — January 25, 2008 @ 4:06 pm

99. Actually, there’s a long history of idealism and extraordinary effort in educating Mormon children at church. Primary was completely overhauled in the late 19th and early 20th-century, based on the then somewhat controversial ideas of Friedrich Froebel (who was a strong influence on Maria Montessori).* Brigham Young invited the most famous proponent of the “radical” new kindergartens to come and lecture in Utah, then hired European-university-trained kindergarten teachers for a private nursery for his own children. Turn-of-the-century Primary was all about developmentally appropriate activities that would foster mental, spiritual, and physical health, rather than the strenuous indoctrination that characterized Primary at its inception.

    Artemis is in great company, just maybe a century too late, or a couple of decades ahead of her time. The pendulum will swing eventually.

    *Froebel Foundation website: http://www.froebelfoundation.org/philosophy.html

    Comment by Kristine — January 25, 2008 @ 4:07 pm

100. Poor Artemis! She just wants the best. Oh well.

     Comment by Heather O. — January 25, 2008 @ 4:07 pm

101. no worries, hero, I can take the teasing. I can even take the attacks. And I appreciate the good advice from those who gave it. Maybe I should include more smileys to convey my non-uptight-edness.

     They call me mello yello….

     Comment by Artemis — January 25, 2008 @ 4:12 pm

102. And I was nursery leader for about five years, and loved it. Best calling in the church. I did have an almost mandatory no-shoes policy, a big round blanket for stories (lots of picture books) individual mats (about 4 was all we needed) for sleepies, and a lot of my own contributions, including a lot of books I left and one of those Ikea fabric worm-tunnels to crawl through (but could be washed). We had a structure a lot like the one above, but it was about as flexible as you could get without actually breaking the sabbath, the word of wisdom, or the missionaries’ hearts. Actually, I did that once, too, because our nursery was in one of those buildings with the baptismal font behind the curtain in the “cultural” hall, where nursery was held. One sunday the missionaries actually planned a baptism for right after church, which meant that they started filling the font when the kids were still in the room!!!! I have NEVER yelled at a relative stranger more angrily or scarily than I did those poor missionaries!

     They turned the water off and had the baptism a little late.

     Duh.

     Comment by hero — January 25, 2008 @ 4:15 pm

103. Yes “anon for this”(92) I see you rising above the sarcasm, you and I and noelle, we can all be so proud!

     But in all seriousness, I have never in my life attacked another person with the amount of careless venom that noelle just shot at us “insipid, ridiculous, and nauseating”. I think we can agree that was excessively unkind.

     I don’t know how to respond to that sort of thing, this is my work, I put a lot of time and effort and tears into this blog. Do I just let every insult pass? Must I respond kindly and gently even to the most egregious of unfair petty meanness?

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 25, 2008 @ 4:16 pm

104. dunno, Lisa. Are the electrons you use in your own defense organic?

     Comment by hero — January 25, 2008 @ 4:25 pm

105. Artemis,

     I saw your disclaimer but I also read this:

     “But then there are the aesthetics. Natural fibers (wood, cotton, wool, etc.) are simply gentler to touch and look at and the good quality natural fiber toys tend to be made with more attention to good aesthetics and a desire to make them beautiful. I think that’s important. I want my daughter to develop a taste for beauty, to appreciate and enjoy the texture of things in her hands or on her body, to make beautiful things out of beautiful, natural materials, to see beauty in nature around her, which I can encourage by giving her nature objects to play with and having her play in nature. I feel that all of this nurtures her and her soul more than lots of plastic toys. And it all starts with little, mostly harmless choices we make when she is small, because she is small and doesn’t have the ability or opportunity to discriminate for herself. ”

     Are you maybe overthinking things a bit? She is what 18 months old? She is not at the Art department at Berkley in nursury or in your play room. My kids have tons of wood toys but I cannot imagine attaching any value to the wood toys over the plastic ones.

     Comment by bbell — January 25, 2008 @ 4:27 pm

106. No they are powered by coal and the sweat, blood, and tears of miners.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 25, 2008 @ 4:30 pm

107. i don’t know sol….

     i’m thinking a little hero worship isn’t worth a blip on the radar when considering many God-loving mothers in other cultures routinely name their much-loved sons… Jesus.

     i’m just sayin …

     Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 25, 2008 @ 4:32 pm

108. Artemis-
     Sorry if my confusion over why you didn’t talk to the teacher first was offensive. I didn’t mean it as critically as it apparently sounded. Just looking to spare you some unnecessary tension with a nursery leader who could feel singled out by this, as if the work they were doing was inadequate. I think it is important to make suggestions for teachers, but I also feel that it’s important to make them feel supported. And probably my experiences working with toddlers and their parents makes me a little over-sensitive to the feelings of my kids’ teachers.

     Comment by McMommy — January 25, 2008 @ 4:38 pm

109. I love these ideas and think they would be great for children. Unfortunately, iit would seem, if you want the support of many of your commenters you will need to include Zoobies, Webkinz and cheap drive-thru toys.

     Comment by Sue — January 25, 2008 @ 4:39 pm

110. KDC–

     I was 110% kidding about the gossiping. I’m glad I made you laugh.

     Comment by mami — January 25, 2008 @ 4:43 pm

111. i take back my previous comment before, i was overwhelmed with the issue at hand. i think that artemis has some great ideas that are entirely appropriate, IF she were the nursery leader. as she is not, she should keep all of these great ideas in a folder for when she gets called to be one and be appreciative of those willing to serve and learn by themselves through prayer and discussions with the primary pres what’s best for their nursery.

     Comment by annie — January 25, 2008 @ 4:51 pm

112. #107- That was kinda funny. But I still think it’s weird to name yourself after your hero. Or maybe I’m just jealous cuz I don’t have the cahones to honor my hero so outwardly. Or maybe I should just give crap to “hero” for naming herself such.

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 5:02 pm

113. What, the wimpy second-string character in “Much Ado about Nothing” is such a grandiose title? I could change to Aliena, the wimpy second-string character in “As You Like It” instead.

     Comment by hero — January 25, 2008 @ 5:20 pm

114. OK, I stopped at 47. WOW. What a furor! Go hassle the primary presidency in your own wards. It sounds like they’ve got a perfectly pleasant agreement going on in Artemis’.

     The lesson plan sounds lovely. ( I’m even going to steal the prayer poem for my little ones!) I hope it works out beautifully.

     (By the way, I have some really lovely wooden puzzles in earth tones–scripture themed–that I’ve been looking for a loving home for. Email me if you want pictures. You can have them.)

     Comment by Jami — January 25, 2008 @ 5:21 pm

115. 113- Thank you, Aliena, I ‘m glad you see my wisdom. You are a woman of upstanding character, I am certain of it.

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 5:22 pm

116. “waldorfy?” you mean, waldorky.

     Comment by geo — January 25, 2008 @ 5:22 pm

117. #114- Uh, I think you meant fuhrer. Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I think I’ll stick with center of the heliocentric universe. More honors would just be too much. Really.

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 5:28 pm

118. sol, geo, behave yourselves! Go off to your little military-style nurseries and leave Artemis alone.

     Waldorf pre-schools are beautiful,peaceful places. A little tree hugging but very sweet. It’s not surprising to me that a loving mother would want to recreate the environment for her child.

     Comment by Jami — January 25, 2008 @ 5:36 pm

119. sol–very punny

     Comment by Jami — January 25, 2008 @ 5:37 pm

120. Just remember Lisa, noelle is a daughter of God too.

     Comment by cj douglass — January 25, 2008 @ 5:37 pm

121. Jami–

     I don’t think any of that was at Artemis.

     Comment by mami — January 25, 2008 @ 5:40 pm

122. #119- I thought so too

     #118-Huh? At what point did I describe my nursery? How did you get military-style?

     It’s not surprising to me that a loving mother would want to recreate the environment for her child.

     Yeah, I would like to recreate my couch, the “Arrested Development” box set, and a huge coke during a lot of church, but so far no takers in my ward. Drat.

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 5:42 pm

123. Artemis, it is difficult to explain the why natural toys, fibers and nurturing the whole child are such important concepts to other people. I suppose it is like comparing the difference between buying a tomato in the grocery store and picking a vine ripe one off the one in your garden. If you have ever tried both, most will agree the garden one is way, way better. I don’t think I have ever heard someone say the prefered the grocery store variety, but there is always room for differing opinions, even when I don’t agree with them, hee hee! I would have loved the opportunity you are getting, but in our ward in Calif we had 40 kids in nursery and we just tried to survive!
     I am sorry that some of the comments have been so mean, personally my feelings would have been hurt. But just so you know, those who have met you and/or know you, totally get the place where you are coming from! Hugs.

     Comment by Jo — January 25, 2008 @ 5:49 pm

124. Lisa, some people are just mean and there doesn’t seem to be a good cure for that yet, except for real life.

     Comment by Jo — January 25, 2008 @ 5:52 pm

125. 121 That’s what I get for reading the beginning and end comments, then mouthing off, half-cocked.
     118. I was teasing. (That’s what that cute smiley was trying to say.) I’m sure you have a wonderful, loving nursery.

     Comment by Jami — January 25, 2008 @ 5:58 pm

126. #125 I got that later. Sorry your joke was wasted on me. I hate to waste a good joke. Akin to blasphemy- and naming yourself after scriptural figures.

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 6:00 pm

127. I am afraid that unless you are making your own wooden toys, they are no more eco or environmentally safe or friendly than any other kind of toy. The are also most like just as dangerous chemically - especially if they are painted, or made from a cheap tropical hardwood - prone to severe allergic reactions in some cases.

     I agree with the fact that natural fibers are more comfortable. I cannot however justify some of the statements made in the thread.

     “I want my daughter to develop a taste for beauty, to appreciate and enjoy the texture of things in her hands or on her body, to make beautiful things out of beautiful, natural materials …..”
     (in order to do this, I will systematically kill and harvest these natural materials in an unsustainable fashion to make a toy - and a buck)

     If you aren’t making your own wooden toys, you should recycle existing toys (wood or plastic) and give the earth a break.

     Comment by BusinessWoman — January 25, 2008 @ 6:05 pm

128. i’m sorry lisa, would you have preferred a passive-aggressive response like yours? i mean that’s just so mormon housewife. not so feminist, though.

     Comment by noelle — January 25, 2008 @ 6:07 pm

129. I have never in my life attacked another person with the amount of careless venom….

     I don’t mind you attacking people Lisa, but denying that you do it is almost laughable.

     I suggest you go back and read a few of the more heated threads on your blog. When riled, you make some of the most cruel personal comments I have ever read anywhere on the net.

     Comment by AnonToday — January 25, 2008 @ 6:09 pm

130. I tried to read this post and pay close attention but I just couldn’t get Basil Fawlty and the American guests and Waldorf salad out of my mind.

     But, I’m surely glad that my grandchildren will have the advantage of this kind of stuff, since all the generations that went before had to suffer through childhood without the further light and knowledge that has been revealed to this latest one.

     Comment by Mark B. — January 25, 2008 @ 6:29 pm

131. #130- Was it when Basil says, “You’re too busy sticking your noses into every corner, poking about for things to complain about, aren’t you? Well, let me tell you something! This is exactly how Nazi Germany started! A lot of layabouts with nothing better to do than to cause trouble!” Yes. No wonder Jami referred to me as a fuhrer.

     Great reference.

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 6:38 pm

132. Not that this is relevant or even important since the conversation is going, but plastic toys with lights and sounds have their places. My son is blind, and those toys are great at helping stimulate any light perception he may have as well as helping him learn to orient himself in space and learn to follow noises. So while I’ve been getting rid of a lot of our plastic toys and buying wood or natural fibers when I can afford them, we keep the noisy light up toys.

     Comment by Lessie — January 25, 2008 @ 6:55 pm

133. For the love of all that is good and right in this world, someone please, please, turn off the damn comments on this post already.

     I’ve laughed too hard for one day.

     Comment by andrew — January 25, 2008 @ 7:05 pm

134. I’m confused. Had you ever actually observed your nursery before, and watched this leader interact with the kids, or did you just go in with all guns blazing?

     We’ve been to many nurseries in the church, and aside from the natural fiber tablecloths, etc., the playing, singing, interaction has been exactly what you are recommending.

     Comment by Liz — January 25, 2008 @ 7:13 pm

135. Noelle (88),

     Who exactly are you “thanking” for their insipidness? It’s really unclear, coming in at comment #88. Are you troubled by the original post? By one or more of the comments? By some combination of the two?

     Are you suggesting that the original post is unfeminist or antifeminist in some way? For instance, is the initial suggestion (that nursery should be Waldorf style) an antifeminist idea? (How?) Is Artemis too much of a “granola” for you? In my observation (though I’m not a working mom, so perhaps I don’t understand), I’d say that Artemis’s granola approach doesn’t necessarily rule her out as a feminist. There are a significant number of granola feminsts who I know (and of course, there are also many not-granola feminists.)

     If you’re troubled by this discussion, or the overall blog, how exactly would you go about improving it? Surely an lds mother who works full-time and actually understands feminism can offer constructive criticism and ideas, not just fire off quick insults.

     Comment by Kaimi — January 25, 2008 @ 7:17 pm

136. I’m with Andrew, please turn off the comments! There are no more ways Artemis can be told to chillax.

     Comment by E — January 25, 2008 @ 7:24 pm

137. Kaimi, she did offer a suggestion, though. She suggested that we “grow up”. So, there we go, people.

     Comment by McMommy — January 25, 2008 @ 7:25 pm

138. you’re right cj, I shouldn’t have reacted so uncharitably. But some days it’s hard. (there is also always the chance that she has enormous breasts the she displays at every opportunity, in which case you should make an effort to see her inner-god-daughter as well).

     noelle, I had been hoping that you were one of those newbies who forgets to see other bloggers as real people and thinks your meanness doesn’t matter online and then learns better. But so far you haven’t given me much hope. If you hate us so, then please go away, we’ll both be happier that way I think. Though if you change your mind and decide we aren’t all bad and unpack your good manners, then you are welcome. Even if you just want to share some constructive criticism ala Kaimi. You might also try reading our comment policies. And perhaps some of our personal introductions so as to be able to view us as real people. And daughters of a Heavenly Mother (and Father) who loves us.

     And, just for the record, that was not passive-aggressive, it was sarcasm, straight up non-passive pro-aggressive sarcasm. For which I have been duly called to the mat.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 25, 2008 @ 7:38 pm

139. Artemis–my apologies. It sounds like you have not yet given the nursery leader your list. But what made you want to “opt-out”? Just the general sense that you didn’t like it, or did you go in and observe?

     (I’m honestly asking–not attacking.)

     And have you thought about what Marigold could gain from this other little girl, rather than just that Marigold would be sure be a “fun friend for this little girl to have”?

     Comment by Liz — January 25, 2008 @ 7:39 pm

140. Artemis–I don’t think anyone objects to wooden/natural toys. I am sure we all have them and many of us love them and seek them out. I think people, myself included, are reacting to your desire to have them everywhere your child will be.

     We think: great, have them, love them, enjoy them at home, but don’t be so picky about Church (or the doctors office or someone elses home if you had thought about putting you imprint there).

     Comment by a spectator — January 25, 2008 @ 8:13 pm

141. I almost commented earlier… I have no mean spirited feelings about the OP at all and think the arguing is unnecessary.

     But I just wanted to give a couple examples from my kids’ nursery times that wouldn’t fit in with Artemis’s ideal (which is kinda cool and I think it would be great if they could sort of pull it off).

     They sing the Barney clean up song (actually this has been sung in nurseries in 2 or 3 states we’ve lived in).

     And, one year my son got pre-colored pictures. Yes, the teachers colored them and then gave them to the kids. The last year he was in nursery he colored his own pictures though.

     Comment by Vicki — January 25, 2008 @ 8:14 pm

142. Love the suggestions, Artemis. Hold to your guns.

     Though I gotta ask.. will the walls be painted pink? What shade?

     Comment by Chad too — January 25, 2008 @ 8:18 pm

143. Noelle, if you understand feminism then you undoubtedly know of the continued power behind the aphorism “the personal is the political.” Feminism does not consist solely of a issues a politician might consider inserting into a national platform; it also consists of hundreds of very personal, ideologically-informed choices we make on behalf of ourselves and our families. If you do not know this, then you haven’t gotten beyond very early first wave feminism.

     While I–and, I imagine, Artemis–understand that not all issues which I personally find important may matter much to someone else, the general arena of “parenting” certainly falls into territory with which feminists are oft concerned. You may not agree with this particular parenting concern, but dismissing someone else’s concern essentially violates the feminist tenet of respecting other’s choices and areas of concern unless those choices and concerns enervate gender equity or other areas of social justice.

     You may find Waldorf education laughable. You may even find it dangerous (though I’m guessing your flip dismissal betrays indifference). That’s fine. But seriously considering how we choose to parent our children is not laughable. Yes, FMH happily features the “big” feminist issues like abortion, equitable pay, asymmetrical theology, etc, but is also features–and should feature–smaller, personal quandries in which we find ourselves. Think of it as “trickle up” feminism.

     If you find Artemis’ dissonance regarding nursery menial, that’s fine. I’m sure others find certain things over which you agonize menial as well. Just don’t dismiss someone else’s concern simply because you do not share it. That’s hardly good feminism.

     Comment by Janet — January 25, 2008 @ 9:24 pm

144. I know I’m late,
     Artemis, the program sounds good, but this isn’t preschool, it’s not her main source of playtime or imagination or art materials or social interactions. it’s a mere 2 hours a week, and IMO it would be unfair to expect a church nursery to jump on board with any educational methodology, and all the training and supplying that would require.
     and honestly, when i imagine all the nice quality toys it would have, I think of them locked away in a dark building 98% of the time and it seems like such a waste.

     my advice as a more experienced mom is to send her to nursery not for the learning, not for the activities, but simply becuase she’ll develop loving relationships with her teachers and friend, and learn some songs, and hear about Jesus, and like church, and because you get the break.

     then, make your home life embody all this good stuff and find a preschool and a playgroup that match your ideals. but church isn’t school and it’s just a drop in the bucket of her experience learning, playing, socializing, and creating. That’s home and school stuff for the other hundred + hours in her week.

     Comment by cchrissyy — January 25, 2008 @ 9:43 pm

145. AnonToday (129),
     Seriously? I’ve never seen myself that way, and if I am acting so horribly and am unaware of it, then I have reason to be deeply ashamed of myself. Please, create a list of these cruel personal comments (some of the worst on the net) that I have made, so that I can learn from my mistakes. Otherwise I’ll have to dismiss you as making unfounded accusations to prove a point?

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 25, 2008 @ 9:48 pm

146. Were I Catholic… every child would have been named after Saints - martyrd type - Biblical heros included.

     I considered going with Bathsheba ……

     

     Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 25, 2008 @ 10:04 pm

147. for #135…

     I would like to posit that every LDS mother works fulltime.

     for clarification - I identify myself as a mother full time and I also work part time outside the home for pay.

     that’s the feminist in me talking - sorry I got back to the conversation late - had missionaries over for dinner. bless their hearts.

     Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 25, 2008 @ 10:17 pm

148. I’m all for organic materials. I too am a first time new mom with a fear of plastic, sugar, baby einstein dvds, idle mindedness, and other kids’ snotty noses. But I also felt a little overwhelmed reading the ideas. I keep swinging between two extremes: living in constant fear of the cancer in my kid’s toys, food and hygiene products, or just living in the world and choosing good alternatives WHEN I CAN. It’s a struggle I go back and forth with and while part of me can see myself writing a post just like Artemis’, the other part of me is laughing at it. I’m reading it going, “OMG this is just like ME and I’m not sure I like it!!” I appreciated the comment “in a few years you’ll look back on this post and laugh at it” which could have been meant snidely, but there’s some truth to it… at least in the way I relate to Artemis. I can see myself loosening up in order to keep the sanity, but I do also understand and agree with wanting a healthy, natural environment for my baby.

     Regarding Noelle’s comment… I’m really sorry to you all for saying this, but I agree with her. I know I’m the pot calling the kettle black, because here I am completely addicted to this blog and commenting for the very first time… but SERIOUSLY there are a lot better things we can be doing with our time than pathetically arguing a point into the ground. I know everyone wants to voice their opinion, but the endless back and forth is really pitiful. “Grow up” is right.

     Okay, I’m ready for the smackdown… 1, 2, 3 GO! Sock it to me!

     puh-leez.

     Comment by kernalie — January 25, 2008 @ 10:21 pm

149. #129-”some of the most cruel personal comments I have ever read anywhere on the net.”

     You must not get out on the net much. I suggest “stupid_free” at livejournal.

     Comment by Annonymous Coward — January 25, 2008 @ 10:46 pm

150. Just to be clear about something really important:

     In #122 I was referring to this, not this. Thanks. I’m glad we could talk.

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 11:01 pm

151. Mary M- You are a god sport. I thoroughly enjoyed our exchange today. Thanks.

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 11:02 pm

152. #151- Oh crap! I meant “good”. You’re not gonna believe that was accidental, but either way, it’s really funny.

     Hero- I really enjoyed your comments as well. Oh, lest I forget, have you considered Harpy (The Tempest) ?

     Just sayin’!

     Comment by sol — January 25, 2008 @ 11:09 pm

153. I remember laughing when I first read about ya’ll in Bust, I think it was Lisa who said, “we’re not just nice, we’re Mormon nice; and that’s a lot of nice.” It is really interesting to me that since I’ve been reading there’ve been discussions re; abortion. genital mutilation, a mothers “role” and etc and while they’ve been heated and contentious at times, there has been nothing close to the ad hominem attacks on Artemis. So I’ve been wondering why. The closest I’ve come to getting it is this story: two weeks ago I was at storytime with my son. He was seven weeks old and I’d just discovered a little bald patch on the top of his head. I was really worried about it and asked a mother of a 4 month old if her son had done anything like that. She said he hadn’t but another mother joined us, not having heard the beginning of the conversation, and patiently explained to me that children develop bald spots on the back of their heads when they’re left in their carseats for too long and maybe Miss X just holds her son more than I hold mine. I consider myself a reasonable person. But I don’t think I was being very reasonable when I hissed at her, “that would make sense if my son were doing headstands, the patch happens to be on top of his head and we hold him constantly, thankyouverymuch.” If I didn’t suffer from self doubt I would have been much gentler and understanding. Likewise I think those women felt attacked and judged, even though it wasn’t intended because no one wants to feel like they’re not doing the best for their child/ren. I’m a very proud sex-positive, third-wave feminist, that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t break my poor heart if people that I respected thought I was failing my children. Oh, and why did I have a seven week old at “storytime?” He’s been going since he was a week old so he’ll know that literature is a beautiful part of his world and a gift that we nurture. I know he doesn’t really distinguish between the library and Taco John’s, just like Artemis knows Marigold could play with a Tonka truck and a wooden top equally enjoyably, but it all accumalates and someday I hope my son thinks of it as just another way his mother showed her love.

     Comment by Sara — January 26, 2008 @ 12:03 am

154. can we please get to a discussion of femAnism? (is that an old one, or did i just invent it? i’ll bet my pal at work is regretting showing me this blog.)

     Comment by geo — January 26, 2008 @ 12:05 am

155. I’m confused. Had you ever actually observed your nursery before, and watched this leader interact with the kids, or did you just go in with all guns blazing?

     We’ve been to many nurseries in the church, and aside from the natural fiber tablecloths, etc., the playing, singing, interaction has been exactly what you are recommending.

     My thoughts, exactly. As a counselor in Primary, I assume you have access to the manuals. Did you look at one, including the organizational materials, and the ones for adapting lessons for small children? And if you have observed your Ward’s nursery, I want to point out that what you plan for one child (your current nursery) is different from what you plan for a group. I have been nursery leader four times in three different wards, and as several people have pointed out, the program is basically what you suggest. The setting may vary from home, but isn’t that what you want for your child? Varied experiences? How will she know your way is “best” if she has no comparison?

     I work with very young children for a living. I applaud your desire to give your child the very best, but It sounds to me as though you don’t have very much experience or education with early childhood development. As pointed out by others, some of the time frames, activities and foods in your vision of a Waldorf nursery are unrealistic or simply inappropriate for toddlers. What is appropriate for 3 to 6 year olds is not appropriate for your 17 month old. Nursery leaders have an extraordinarily hard job, because meeting the needs of a toddler (18 month old) and meeting the needs of a preschooler (3 year old) takes a lot of attention, devotion, and work. Doing both at the same time means something has to give, somewhere. Your schedule sometimes just has to go out the window with both age groups, not to mention the stages in between.

     If you are ever called as the nursery leader, read the manual, commit to following it (it has, after all, been prepared under the direction and inspiration of living prophets), pray, prepare, show up on time, keep the children safe at all costs, and let nature take its course. Because it will.

     Comment by geekbearinggifts — January 26, 2008 @ 1:11 am

156. Holy Cow! I hope friendships survive after this blog.

     Okay, I have to admit, I started out on this thread laughing my head off at a lot of posts and thinking, “Gosh, she is crazy! Organic snacks? Wooden toys? Evil plastic?” But after the very impassioned #94, I am all on board. I am going through my daughter’s toys tomorrow and we are going to follow a more minimalist approach from now on. We have way too much junk, and I think it probably overwhelmes her as much as it overwhelmes me. Not exactly encouraging creativity. Plus, her favorite toys are dress up, paper and a pen and the new (plastic) kitchen she got for Christmas. I would have loved a wooden one, but $25 for plastic or $100+ for wood. We are starving students and I didn’t want to have to eat the all natural wooden kitchen.

     I was NL for a while a few months back, and I noticed if you gave the kids some protein, they were SO much better behaved. Of all the suggestions, I say go for better snacks first.

     Noelle, what exactly is feminist about being *itchy? I thought that was the old feminists and the new wave was supposed to be a nicer bunch? But, whatever, keep the hate alive if it works for you.

     Comment by Sarah S. — January 26, 2008 @ 4:02 am

157. back atcha sol!

     i LOVE this discussion regarding 2nd wave and 3rd wave feminism. while there is a parity, there are just as many differences. (recalling the directives of the 1st wave w/a desire for new laws - the 1st and 2nd are very close in platform)

     I grew up during the 2nd wave and remember well the day my mother announced she was no longer going to cook for family because she no longer “had to do such chores.” Ya know what? she never did again. (today, I’m an awesome cook!)

     but this 3rd wave is way way terrific. the inclusive nature of welcoming sisters and brothers into the fold of diversity and making room for every type and demographic gives me hope.

     there is room for the tree hugging-birkenstock wearing-granola serving-Waldorf teaching woman. there is equally room enough for the iindividuals who chooses to sit on the periphary of curiousity until feeling comfortable enough to join in the conversation that says women are competant, daughters don’t need to be mutilated, and honor for men is never redeemed through the death of a beautiful daughter of a loving Heavenly Father. Come on in, the water’s fine.

     i’m gonna go dig out my Helen Reddy 8-track and brew some herbal tea.

     Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 26, 2008 @ 7:55 am

158. I have to laugh at comments like #155 where she suggests to keep the kids safe at all costs and let nature take its course. In my experience nature is a cruel BEAST who functions on natural selection and survival of the fittest. People are so crazy about nature, like what pure and natural is also kind. That’s CRAZY talk. Remember the “natural man”? Leaving nursery kids to their natural self means they’ll be trying to scratch out each other’s eyes for a lego block or a raisin they found on the floor.
     In my ward I tried to add some structure to the nursery and I had a bunch of angry parents complaining that I wasn’t letting the kids express themselves naturally. So I’m supposed to sit and watch their kids express themselves by screaming themselves silly or fighting each other for toys.

     Comment by Irie — January 26, 2008 @ 8:02 am

159. as a “free spirit” I hate having anyone tell me how to do my job - but working together respectfully to create positive change is a good thing. I raised my first four kids on legos and little tikes. I became a “granola” mom with my last one…montesori, waldorf, etc. The first four are creative and the fifth wants to spend most of her time on the computer. (She’s eating ramen loaded with MSG that her dad bought her as I type. Yikes.) Life is complex and we all just need to do the best we can, and be kind to others in their journeys as well. (IMHO.)

     If church nurseries need more money, I agree, it can come out of the 10%. (Easier said than done, but it’s the principle of the matter.)

     Someone above (I am not finding the number quickly, and I want to get on with my day) mentioned that we should stick to the manuals since they are overseen by the prophets and therefore must be just fine. That’s a nice idealistic thought, but they are written by humans with weaknesses and biases and are one of the places the church can use improvement in, as we have discussed here about other organizations.

     Comment by jeannine — January 26, 2008 @ 8:35 am

160. Love the discussion! I have been amazed at what an opinionated place nursery can be. That’s one reason I started my nursery blog. I’m happy to add my thoughts to a few of the topics.

     I’m flattered that you liked the prayer poem. It’s been a lot of fun in my nurseries.

     Food: Can we talk specifics? I’d really like to know what quality snacks people are using. I’ve been rocking the yogurt covered raisins and pretzels and they’ve been going pretty well.

     The Lesson: #155 About using the lessons out of the manual, the manual was written for kids up to age 8 so a lot of the activities really don’t fly in nursery. Like you said every age group has very different requirements. I think any capable teacher knows that a lesson needs to be adapted to their class and adapting the lesson for nursery can take a LOT of tweaking. I do my best to use as much as I can out of the lesson manual but it’s tough work.

     Toys: I HATE HATE HATE the toys we have. I open the toy cupboard and it feels like I fell into someone’s musty basement or onto the island of unloved toys. They are old and gross and a lot of them aren’t super safe. I dislike them so much that I aspire to the least amount of toy time as possible. It’s usually where I see the most child on child violence.

     I let the kids have access to anything they want during play time but I do my best to keep up other activities that are more fun. Still, I feel guilty throwing anything away because they were donated and it seems ungrateful. I’ve resorted to letting myself throw away one toy each week which I try to replace with something better.

     The Calling Itself: ALL the nursery workers in my ward are the young newly married gals. That makes me feel a tad uneasy. They seem to stay in until they become too pregnant to do the job. Since I’m not having kids any time soon I will probably be in nursery for another five years.

     I had some real doubts about my calling when I first received it. I felt like I was being pigeon holed into it by my age and sex. It turned out that I happened to really enjoy it. But I know other ladies in my situation in the ward’s other nurseries who didn’t. I recognize that women who are moms can really use the escape and so I think it’s much better me than them but I would really like to see guys in the nursery too. I don’t like the idea that working with young children is only “women’s work.” Our ward is big so there’s more than enough priesthood to go around. So I wonder why all three nurseries have been staffed only by women for at least three years.

     I still feel uneasy at times about being the nursery leader. I don’t want people to see me as a martyr or a babysitter or someone who really loves little kids enough to put up with anything but someone who is doing a time intensive and thought provoking calling.

     Comment by Kate — January 26, 2008 @ 8:51 am

161. to be honest its only nursery she doesn’t have to go if she doesnt want to. but having said that….she’s going to come across all sorts of diferent toys over the years made with some rubbish stuff but its hardly going to really restrict her development. she needs time to play time to socailise and do so do you. perhaps you dould donate some better toys in there or suggest them

     let her go follow the church lesson plan (very flexible to by the way) and chill!!!!!

     Debrauk

     Comment by debrauk — January 26, 2008 @ 8:55 am

162. PS- Artemis your schedule looks great and very do-able to me. I hope it goes well! I like your food and toy suggestions. Any pointers on where to purchase such things?

     Comment by Kate — January 26, 2008 @ 9:00 am

163. WOW! That’s all I have to say. Good efforts, but good luck! Honestly, I wouldn’t want my child playing with toys that are not easily washable but to each his own. Pretty sure my children are creative, with out all of that. We have lots of plastic and wooden toys, dinosaurs, legos, Lincoln Logs, Tinker toys. It’s the type of toy that builds creativity, not the material.

     Honestly, if it works for you that is great. Just make sure to follow the handbook. There is a reason it is there. Good luck!

     Comment by Wowsers — January 26, 2008 @ 10:03 am

164. Here’s an idea, our ward calls couples to the nursery, and they do a wonderful job. That way they are not split up either. The men do really well with the boys, and the women either or but that way there are always at least two people, because usually couples come together.

     Comment by Wowsers — January 26, 2008 @ 10:08 am

165. For once I held my fingers off the keyboard when I first read this post. My first reaction was, “she must be kidding …”

     The reality is, I don’t have the gumption to take this particular thing on and I personally think things are mostly fine in nursery. But if someone else created this kind of environment for my kids, I’d be thrilled. So, go girl!

     Comment by Ana — January 26, 2008 @ 11:01 am

166. onto the island of unloved toys.

     Aw Kate, you alluded to my favorite childhood Christmas special! Warm fuzzy memories! Of course, those toys were actually cute. I hate a lot of the plastic crap, but there are some nice, tasteful, inventive plastic toys out there . . . and of course they are pricey, just as are the wood ones. But if there’s a Kid to Kid store in your area, see what they have on a regular basis. They screen “donations” and I’ve picked up some quite nice soft cloth toys for my baby and seen some seemingly decent plastic ones for older children. They also often have some Melissa and Doug stuff. The Goodwill can score you an occasional good find as well, and garage sales very often feature the old standby of Lincoln Logs.

     Comment by Janet — January 26, 2008 @ 2:41 pm

167. Artemis, you mentioned the kitty you crocheted for Marigold and called it “pathetic looking.” No it’s not–it’s adorable! Too bad Muffin thinks his knitted bunny is just for unraveling with his teeth. It’s gone back to the mantel display until he stops biting everything. Best “teething ring” I’ve found? A (non-toxic, sanded) wooden dowel. Also, very cheap. The kid gnaws on that sucker with a vengeance!

     Comment by Janet — January 26, 2008 @ 2:44 pm

168. kernalie–sorry, no smackdown. I think it’s fine if you have other priorities than nursery and you were a lot more polite than the person with whom you agreed, so you don’t get beat up as you requested :). Welcome to the blog! Now….you could always email one of us a list of topics you’d like to see discussed, or even write and submit a guest post for consideration.

     Comment by Janet — January 26, 2008 @ 2:46 pm

169. I am all for making children’s experiences rich in learning and creativity. I think, however, this is a lot to expect from volunteers.

     Maybe Artemis should have included this list in her letter that she sent to all her friends and family about her name preferences. Sometimes, Artemis, your approach is just harsh and passionate - without fully seeing things through.

     And yes, fmhLisa, I think you must be good friends with her because you have the same problem. I’ve been very surprised at some of your mean comments on other posts (as the person in charge of this website). I am not Mormon, and can’t say that some of you make me want to go near this church. Which is a shame.

     Comment by Anonymous — January 26, 2008 @ 4:01 pm

170. I did not send the letter to anyone. I was only going to send it to close family. I’m currently exploring other options.

     One of the nice things about blogging is that you can test out ideas, theories, and letters. One of the not so nice things about it is people getting overly judgmental. Motes and beams, and all.

     Comment by Artemis — January 26, 2008 @ 4:09 pm

171. #160: That is strange that they don’t use men in your ward. In our ward, the oldest nursery class is run by 2 young married men who are graduate students (I think one of them has a baby). They do a great job and the kids love them. My daughter just moved to their class at the beginning of the year.

     I am surprised at how mean some of these posts have been. It seemed like they didn’t read her original post very well. I too thought her outline sounded a lot like what was already in the manual, but she acknowledged that in her OP. My only other thought was that she needs to be careful not to take away the nursery leader’s stewardship. That is part of the calling- setting up the nursery the way you think is best according to the manual’s guidelines. While she can make requests and suggestions, it is ultimately NOT her calling or stewardship. So, she doesn’t get final say, he does. I trust she understands this though.

     I have never been a nursery leader (although I once volunteered to the bishop to be one!) but I have been a primary president and learned a lot about nursery then as it was our stake primary president’s pet issue. I had one mom call me very concerned and with lots of suggestions for nursery. Many were things I could do nothing about (like putting in a peephole and adding a playground! this from a lifelong member!), but some I could do something about. Like not sharing toys with the other 2 wards in our building anymore so we could sanitize them better. I think speaking up is great, but we need to be realistic too.

     Comment by Anonymous Lurker — January 26, 2008 @ 4:36 pm

172. ok…so this thread has grown sooo long….and no one will probably read this….wish i had added it yesterday….

     Our nursery had tons of broken and old toys. the amount of toys was silly, since they were all old and damaged. I think people had dumped them at the church instead of taking them out to their local “good will” center.

     I mentioned my concern to the primary president and she talked with the other wards that used the room. We set aside a day to go through all the toys. Some of the YW came to help. We cleaned, sanitized, and sorted toys that should be donated to good will centers and most of them were thrown out.

     Sometimes it just takes some to make a comment and be willing to do something to improve the nursey. I think often times, people just complain and wait for someone else to fix it.

     KUDOS to Armitus for wanting to help. Her lesson plan only vaires a titch from the suggested outline in the Primary 1 manual.

     Sad part to our story is that we asked for specific donations from the wards to improve our supply of toys. We ended up with a box of books that I wonder if they were intended for some 3rd world reading program….and other junky toys that should have ended up in the trash.

     We went through them again…. But the kids didn’t mind what we had. It was just nice to get rid of all the junk. The nursery leaders from all the wards were relieved. They didn’t know it was ok for them to do it….everyone was just waiting for SOMEONE to step forward to improve the situation.

     KUDOS for wanting to help.

     Comment by Joanne — January 26, 2008 @ 6:30 pm

173. i like your plan. I love waldorf, and I love organic food and natural toys. My one suggestion is adding tables of choices. A few diifferent activities for each time, excluding gathering. . I love being a nursery leader, and think the more heirloom toys the better. Go waldorf!

     Comment by susan — January 26, 2008 @ 7:02 pm

174. Anonymous (169),
     I like to think the world is full of people who mean well, even if we don’t always live up to our ideals. Thus, I hate to think that you (singular, plural?) anonymous attacker(s) intend to be cowardly liars, but as you seem unable to back-up these vague accusations of my (and Artemis’s) extreme meanness, I’m afraid I’ll have to write you off as exactly that.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 26, 2008 @ 8:25 pm

175. My ward has three crowded nurseries, we could easily have four if we had another available room, I’ve been in nursery for coming on a year, and have just been called to be the nursery music leader. We have junky snacks (those transfat ridden whale crackers are really tasty) and lots of plastic (germ ridden) toys. But we do have an age-appropriate schedule much like Artemis outlines above. Plus bubbles. Kids love the bubbles.

     As the music leader now, I see all the nursery folks and how they interact with the kids. And at least in my ward, the nursery full of men, as opposed to the other that consists of young couples, is a lot more enthusiastic and participatory. They really seem to enjoy goofing around and interacting with the kids, where as the couples have a whole different dynamic, a worn out, we do this everyday, dynamic.

     This has nothing to do with the post, but as someone who is personally over-exposed to three-year-olds (I also teach pre-school and babysit many of my friend’s 3yo and have my own), I think all nurseries (where possible) should be lead by people who are not at home with toddlers all day (because we just can’t take it anymore).

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 26, 2008 @ 8:47 pm

176. I wasn’t going to respond because there are so many responses already, but I want to add something. I agree with organic, wooden toys, creative environemntes etc. I am an extreme mother in how I raise my kids. I create a “Waldorf” like environment at home. But after my second child, I’ve realized I can’t control the environment outside the home. I teach at a very low-income, diverse school. At christmas, I get home-cooked food, which of course is not organic, maybe not even sanitary. I get invited to birthday parties at trailer parks. I never hesitate to accept the food or go to the parties. I even bring my two toddlers. Like I said, at home we have HIGH standards, but the most important thing I want to teach my children is acceptance of others. I know Artemis means well, playing with wooden toys and healthy snacks are high priorities for her. But personally, lower down on my list. I think constantly trying to control your child’s environment even at a young age might make them miss out on other learning experiences, like how to adapt when their surrounding or the people around them are not just like what they’re use to.

     Comment by Melissa — January 26, 2008 @ 9:35 pm

177. I don’t have time to sit around and compile a list of your mean comments, fmhLisa. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen. It also doesn’t mean any of us is perfect (myself included). I’m just trying to get across to you that, in your zeal to make your point made, you sometimes annihilate anyone who dares think differently than you. I genuinely think that you, and Artemis, mean well, you just don’t understand how you, at times, come across. This comes off badly for both Latter-Day Saints, as well as feminists - as I would expect it would come off for myself, if I chose to publicly blast people.

     It might be easier for people to listen you to both if you were a little more gentle. That doesn’t mean you should be meek, a doormat, or a “stereotypical woman.”

     Comment by Anonymous — January 26, 2008 @ 9:41 pm

178. I can’t imagine that these numerous examples can be that hard to find. If you have the time to make the accusations, then you had better make the time to back them up. Otherwise . . . well, I’ve already explained about cowardly liars.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 26, 2008 @ 10:30 pm

179. Lisa,
     Calling someone a cowardly liar is a case in point.

     Comment by mami — January 26, 2008 @ 11:07 pm

180. mami, I didn’t call anyone a cowardly liar, I simply said that if you make anonymous accusations that you refuse to back up then things point very much in that direction. Not a personal attack, a statement of fact.

     Sure there could be other explanations . . . I’m not sure what, but I allowed for that, anonymous could explain her/himself. Anonymous could show the personal attacks I’ve made, prove, with examples, the horrible level of meanness I show to other people, the egregious personal attacks I’m guilty of. Or Anonymous could admit that s/he couldn’t find anything or perhaps that s/he misread my strong opinions and blunt speaking or reacted emotionally to the same. Whatever. But at this point things aren’t looking good for Anonymous.

     I thought about softening it, but why? I’m not the one making unsupported accusations. Anonymous is casting aspersions on my character, making very personal attacks on me and refusing to come up with ANY support of those accusations, and I’m the bad guy now? I’m no angel, but I don’t attack people, I attack ideas, I get frustrated, I can be blunt, I get mad, I’ve been flip or sarcastic on occasion (but not so much really considering), I’ve even been wrong and I’ve apologized, but I am do not attack people personally. And I am certainly not one of the most egregious meanies on the internet. That is utterly ridiculous.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 26, 2008 @ 11:38 pm

181. FMH Lisa — I love how you say it how it is, and how you don’t overly nicey-nice stuff up sometimes. I have never seen you be “mean.” I’ve seen you be straightforward and open about yourself, and passionate in advocating an opinion. I’ve seen you often use humour and self-deprecation, so I know your EQ score is just fine.

     You can’t please everyone, that much is clear. So you end up with some haters — I guess that’s life in the ‘nacle, in a nutshell.

     Comment by RE — January 26, 2008 @ 11:59 pm

182. As to snacks, I have to think that the ideal snack for a Waldorf nursery environment would consist of chopped apples, celery, and walnuts. Mixed, with a mayonaise dressing.

     Comment by Kaimi — January 27, 2008 @ 12:19 am

183. Kaimi–
     Your late to the party. We even have pictures of the salad.

     Comment by mami — January 27, 2008 @ 12:24 am

184. that would be you’re

     Comment by mami — January 27, 2008 @ 12:26 am

185. Sure, mami, but did anyone suggest it for the nursery snack?

     Comment by Kaimi — January 27, 2008 @ 12:33 am

186. #114 - Jami,

     At what address can I email you about the puzzles?

     Comment by Kat — January 27, 2008 @ 12:57 am

187. I know this is late but, as somebody who has had the Physical Facilities Rep, calling in the past, all I have to say is, f%^*@#g play dough?!? Cloves? Really? Soil, you want to deliberately bring in soil and hand it to two-year-olds? You go right ahead and you bring your carpet steamer with you.

     BTW, Waldorf, and wooden toys generally, are much more expensive. Therefore they are a symbol of status, of class. Insisting on such things teaches greater materialism, not less.

     Comment by Retief — January 27, 2008 @ 1:44 am

188. Best “teething ring” I’ve found? A (non-toxic, sanded) wooden dowel. Also, very cheap.

     Janet. Good call on the teething toy. Ours kept whacking themselves in the head with it though. Spark plug cables also make great teething options, especially for the molars.

     Comment by Retief — January 27, 2008 @ 1:51 am

189. good call, retief, aka jan 27 1:44 am. the original post is so smarmy and hoity toity i nearly gagged on the wooden toy i played with while reading it.

     Comment by geo — January 27, 2008 @ 2:33 am

190. is that retief as in goosen, the south african golfer?

     Comment by geo — January 27, 2008 @ 2:35 am

191. is that retief as in goosen, the south african golfer?

     ‘Fraid not. Retief as in Jame, but he’s fictional.

     Comment by Retief — January 27, 2008 @ 3:03 am

192. Lisa - I am not the Anonymous who has been discussing your comments, but I can certainly see that perspective.

     The great majority of your posts and comments are articulate and and focus on the issues at hand rather than personal attacks. But I’ve been lurking here for three years, and I have noticed that when you get particularly upset about a comment, your tact sometimes goes out the window. I think it’s great to take a stand–and we all have a tendency to be less polite when others challenge our deeply-held opinions–but to say that you are never mean just isn’t accurate.

     For example, on the “Sick and Angry” thread:

     so “me”, I was wondering, does it hurt, your heart? Being three sizes too small?

     Okay, back to lurkerdom…

     Comment by a different anon — January 27, 2008 @ 8:23 am

193. I am afraid I agree with Lisa on this, and I hope it doesn’t bring any anon meaness on my head in return. Leaving critical comments like the couple above and refusing to claim them by leaving a name and/or website is pretty cowardly. (or by refusing to back them up with facts). Lisa is being upfront, saying what she means, whether you agree or not, and whether you think it is mean or not, and you have her name and a way to get a hold of her. To respond with veiled comment is equivalent to a hit and run in my book. Say it, own it, in spite of your pointed fingers, Lisa does. I have noticed some of the meanest comments come from those who refuse to stand up and claim them.
     Just noticing!

     Comment by Jo — January 27, 2008 @ 9:34 am

194. Jo (193) - you make a good point. Unfortunately, I don’t have a website to leave, and I jealously guard my identity on the internet (hence I am a lurker and very, very rare commenter). I know I can use a pseudonym to avoid revealing my name on the net–and that’s exactly what I’ve done here. I have on occasion sent private emails to various permabloggers (here and elsewhere), and if I get a chance today, I’ll send one Lisa’s way.

     Comment by a different anon — January 27, 2008 @ 10:12 am

195. Lisa,
     I think everyone knows, incluing you, that goint back through years of posts to find your nasty remarks would is unrealistic. I am surprised that anon did not post the whole remark they are referring to.

     so “me”, I was wondering, does it hurt, your heart? Being three sizes too small? Maybe you should see a doctor about that, hope you have really good insurance. Or maybe you could get the Who’s to do a roast-beast/carol-singing fund raiser . . . we wouldn’t want to you drop dead as you danced on the graves of those brown babies whose mothers were too stupid and selfish (and lazy and evil) to take proper care of them.

     You may say it wasn’t a direct attack, that you were simply opting for sarcasm. But I don’t think it would fly if you said to one of your children, “Your acting like such an idiot!” or “What were you thinking? Do you need a frontal labotomy?” would be any better than saying directily, “You are an idiot!” I think the second example is in fact worse. I don’t think you think it would fly either. But you try to fly that kind of logic to justify your meanness here all the time.

     Comment by mami — January 27, 2008 @ 11:09 am

196. 186. Kat–I believe Artemis is currently pondering the phot. She may or may not want them. And while I don’t particularly guard my identity (Jami is, in fact, my name) I am not quite sure how to get you my email address without also giving the nasties my email address. Any suggestions?

     Comment by Jami — January 27, 2008 @ 11:12 am

197. going back
     and erase that would!

     Comment by mami — January 27, 2008 @ 11:13 am

198. Different Anon, I appreciate you saying that. Thanks.

     Comment by Jo — January 27, 2008 @ 1:03 pm

199. 186,196–Kat, I’m sorry. The puzzles have found their new home. Good luck in you search. Jami

     Comment by Jami — January 27, 2008 @ 1:42 pm

200. er…your search.

     Comment by Jami — January 27, 2008 @ 1:43 pm

201. Whoa. Those of us who are on the ‘net all the time inevitably lose our tempers and say stupid things on occasion. The quotation above hardly represents the best of Lisa; her passion for providing good health care for everyone got in the way of tact at that particular moment. I agree. But really, we all lose our cool sometimes and if I recall that particular thread correctly (where, incidentally, Lisa was better behaved than a few other people), she apologized. Lisa may have a temper, but she does regularly apologize–a rare, rare thing I fear.

     But if we’re going to weigh poor Lisa’s crimes, I’m rather sure they won’t outdo her virtues. A snide, sarcastic, or even cruel comment now and then comes with the territory of being a fallen human being. Having those comments immortalized in text comes with the territory of being a permablogger w/too much integrity to surreptitiously go back and delete one’s own less-savory moments via the back-door edit function. Cut Lisa a break, folks. Her kindnesses outweigh her occasional sarcastic flippancies, and the vast space of text she’s authored is bound to contain a few easy targets. Unless you’ve authored a similar bunch of text with nary a moment of snarkiness, you may not realize how hard it is to avoid.

     Comment by Janet — January 27, 2008 @ 2:57 pm

202. J
     

     anet. Good call on the teething toy. Ours kept whacking themselves in the head with it though. Spark plug cables also make great teething options, especially for the molars.

     LOL, Retief. Should have specified that said dowel should be *short*–albeit Muffin still manages to use it as a drumstick for everything from my face to his own. It replaced his previous teething fave: the laptop cord. Not exactly the sort of Pavlovian response I want him to get regarding mastication: shock! drop! (roll?). He also liked to attack the stereo remote by gnawing off the buttons. Little nutter

     Comment by Janet — January 27, 2008 @ 3:01 pm

203. Janet,
     She asked, no begged– us to find a comment. I don’t hold it against her. I don’t even think she is like that all the time. Heaven knows, I’ve made a complete a#*@ of myself online. But when Lisa claims she is never mean and all her readers (which obviously keep reading for whatever reason) have seen it and then accuses someone of being a cowardly liar for claiming she ever made a mean remark in her life–that’s a bit much, don’t you think?
     Does it outdo her virtues? That’s for each person to decide him/herself. But let’s not claim virtues of unfailing kindness which she doesn’t posess, at least not online.

     Comment by mami — January 27, 2008 @ 3:06 pm

204. I get that, mami. We’re all mean sometimes and Lisa saying she *never* engages in personal attacks hardly accurately represents any human being. (Ok, maybe my grandma and this lovely older lady in my ward who smiles beautifically all the time but may be slightly addled.) I imagine Lisa meant that she doesn’t make a practice of personal attacks, they aren’t her usual intent or modus operandi. Which, really, they aren’t.

     So yes, you have a point. I’m just suggesting everyone give it a rest. Whatever anyone wanted to gain from showing that Lisa can occasionally sting has been gained, but I’m not exactly sure its a gain for anything other than pettiness on all sides, frankly. The grinch remark wasn’t nice and neither was resurrecting it. Certainly we don’t need to be nice all the time since that would just make us puerile, but our breaches really ought to have some teleological point beyond making someone else feel crappy about themselves, don’t you think?

     Comment by Janet — January 27, 2008 @ 3:30 pm

205. I only brought that up because I found her treatment and, once again, calling someone a coward, indefensible. I was defending the innocent. I really didn’t want that person to feel crappier than Lisa made them feel. That was my point.
     If Lisa feels crappy-maybe she should set a New Year’s resolution somewhat like this one.
     
     I’ll be the bookie to take bets on who keeps it. Bets are in increments of $10 only.

     Comment by mami — January 27, 2008 @ 3:49 pm

206. Ah, but what about the church’s rather rabid anti-gambling stance, m’dear? (Seriously, it is rather rabid. When I lived a stone’s throw from casinos people actually handled out leaflets at church. Shamelessly, with nary a wink. But I just wanted that cheap prime rib! I swear! Card counting had nothing to do with it!)

     Seriously though, I understand calling someone on something (um, ask my husband or poor mother). But can we let it go now?

     Comment by Janet — January 27, 2008 @ 4:14 pm

207. Janet–
     Close the thread.

     Comment by mami — January 27, 2008 @ 4:42 pm

208. Very interesting discussion…I have to admit - my first thought after reading through these wasn’t about the plastic/wooden toys or snacks…its was surprise that your ward only has one person in your nursery (esp. a guy- our stake has been adamant about the no-guy-alone-with-kids-unless-there’s-a-window business). I was a lone nursery leader in our ward for several years and it stunk not having someone in there to help out when a kid got hurt or we needed a water refill or something. We now have rotating pairs…

     …Anyway…I definitely agree with your intentions, Artemis. I think in your subsequent comments you cleared up that you DON’T intend for nursery to be a preschool or a hippie-haven, just trying to make it the best environment possible:) If you have the support and resources to do it, I say go for it - but only keeping in mind that nursery leaders are volunteers (who didn’t even volunteer themselves for the job in the first place) and shouldn’t be expected to conform to any one parenting philosophy. To get teachers and parents on board, I’d be more inclined to emphasize things such as routine, sanitation, enhanced creativity and flexibility (you can get a lot more play out of blocks then a one-way-to-play electronic blinking turtle), etc. but be careful about endorsing any particular philosophy through your leadership in the church.

     We actually replaced many old wooden toys in our nursery with (used but sanitized) plastic toys because we were having so many problems with kids getting sick from each other at nursery. Kids were chewing on them, coloring on them, etc. - there are drawbacks to wooden toys in a group setting, especially if they’re not particularly well-made ones…

     You have definitely inspired me to take a look at the truck-loads of toys my own children have, though…I swear I have only bought my children a handful of toys over the years, but everyone else seems to think they need to have enough to swim in. I don’t care so much about the plastic vs. wooden thing (after all…if I already own the plastic toy, it would be far more damaging to the environment to throw it away than to keep it, right?) - but we’re moving soon and it would be an excellent opportunity to weed out some of our “brainless” toys.

     Comment by sandy — January 27, 2008 @ 8:03 pm

209. This has nothing to do with the post, but as someone who is personally over-exposed to three-year-olds (I also teach pre-school and babysit many of my friend’s 3yo and have my own), I think all nurseries (where possible) should be lead by people who are not at home with toddlers all day (because we just can’t take it anymore).

     SING IT SISTER! I was absolutely FURIOUS when I moved into my current ward nearly two years ago and was sent unceremoniously to the nursery. Even though I had a nursing baby about 6 months old who I had to drag with me. And even though I’ve only have 4 callings in the church, 3 of which have been in the nursery. It seems I am either without calling or in the nursery.

     Currently I had to be released because I have a newborn and it is rare I attend church anyway. Right now I feel so grateful I can’t play the piano and I am entirely, completely tone deaf because the primary chorister is pregnant and someone will have to replace her in a few months.

     In my ward, all the mothers of young children are either in primary/nursery or in young women’s. The mothers of older children get to go to Relief Society. I think I’ve been to RS maybe a 12 times in the last 3 years. Church is a chore for me when I have a nursery calling.

     Comment by MD — January 27, 2008 @ 8:14 pm

210. mami, it’s not my thread to close. But I imagine Artemis may close it–we’ve pretty much sussed out the nursery subject, after all.

     Comment by Janet — January 27, 2008 @ 9:36 pm

211. Janet, I figured that.

     Comment by mami — January 27, 2008 @ 9:40 pm

212. I only 2/3 belong here (I’m a Mormon housewife but not a feminist) or maybe not at all (I loved Sister Beck’s conference talk) and if I’m honest, I mostly come here for entertainment — there’s so much that’s inflammatory that it can be pretty engaging. I also haven’t visited enough to have much of a feel for you as individuals, so I hope I don’t regret testing the waters by commenting. (Or, should I say testing the flames?) Anyway, this post and the comments lived up to my expectations of being entertaining, and exceeded my expectations by making me laugh out loud several times (Sol/helios, your comments were like gold to me — or should I say like sunlight?)

     Artemis, your ideas did seem over-the-top to me (as a jaded old mother of 4,) and if others hadn’t sounded the alarm about: nuts, play dough, seeds, and pinecones, I would have. (Oh, and lots of people are also allergic to wool. But many are also allergic to synthetics.) I thought your later post explaining yourself softened the tone of the first post quite a lot, though, and I think that if you follow the good advice others have given (about not usurping the stewardship of the current nursery leader, etc.,) then you will probably bring some positive changes to your nursery. (You do seem to have a LOT more energy for that than I would, (but did I mention the 4 kids?)

     I would like to suggest two things:

     1. A preoccupation with “materials” (e.g. wood vs. plastic) can be its own kind of materialism. That said, we all have to navigate our orientation to the material world and make judgments about it — but we also all need to be careful not to make material things idols, and even “good” materials like wood and wool can be made into idols. I’m not saying that you necessarily are doing this, but I did want to point out that whether natural or synthetic, it’s still all material.

     2. Although they will (usually) be influenced by their parents’ preferences, children will also come with their own set of aesthetics, and their imaginations will sometimes be greatly fired by something loud, gaudy, electronic, and plastic. Although I love the look and feel of wooden toys, and do try to choose open-ended-play toys when I’m the one doing the selecting, there are also some plastic ones that have become dear to my heart, especially because I’ve seen my children enjoy them so much. In fact, isn’t it one form of creativity to see the potential beyond the intended purpose of an item? Anyway, my kids have played with lots of plastic but they still seem pretty creative to me.

     (I hope those links worked and aren’t a mess.)

     Anyway (yes this is still my point #2) what I would really wish to avoid would be for a child to have a natural affinity for an essentially neutral thing, and then to feel judged for that affinity, which could lead them to either feel unnecessary guilt, or even to be resentful or rebellious. For example, I’ve always disliked Barbie — even when I was young — and I therefore had no proclivity for purchasing Barbies for my daughters, BUT when my first daughter was given a Barbie doll and seemed to like it, I hid my preferences from her, to allow her to have her own experience, un-judged. Had she loved Barbies, I might have even ended up buying them for her (although I might have looked for a better alternative, but only if she seemed to be satisfied by it.) Anyway, as luck would have it (or maybe just because she’s very in tune with me, or very similar to me,) a little while later my daughter decided that she hates Barbies.

     Another viable alternative — once kids are old enough to reason — is to tell your kid why you dislike a toy ,and then let them make their own choices. For example, I won’t buy Bratz, but I would let my daughter buy them with her allowance if she were so inclined. And of course, if you feel really, really strongly about something, we do of course have the right, as parents, to forbid something in our homes — I just think that drawing that boundary too small can backfire on a parent. Personally, I wouldn’t forbid things like Bionicles or Barbies — but I would draw the line at, say, a prostitute doll or submachine BB-gun.

     I was going to tell you my current Primary and nursery pet peeves — none of them having to do with plastic, but instead to do with how the way the leaders relate to the children — but I think I’ve already written too long a novel of a first post, so I’ll quit. Good luck with your nursery; I hope if you decide to take your daughter there that it will be a good experience for her.

     Comment by Zina W — January 28, 2008 @ 1:49 am

213. Hey, my links worked. Except for this one.

     Comment by Zina W — January 28, 2008 @ 1:50 am

214. Oh, when I said “your 2nd post” I mean the one here in the comments (I think it’s number 49 or so) — I now see there’s a whole ‘nother long actual post. That’ll have to be saved for another day (like, probably, tomorrow,) since I’m already up too late.

     Comment by Zina W — January 28, 2008 @ 2:05 am

215. mami, I’m not actually a fan of closing threads, Artemis can do as she likes, of course, but I’m more inclined to take the organic approach. We do that at fMh, including leaving up history to be viewed in all its mess. I like mess, I find it very real.

     Now I think you (mami, and “different anon”) are under the mistaken impression that I made claims that I did not make. to quote you mami:

     But when Lisa claims she is never mean and all her readers (which obviously keep reading for whatever reason) have seen it and then accuses someone of being a cowardly liar for claiming she ever made a mean remark in her life–that’s a bit much, don’t you think?

     I never claimed that I was “never mean” (you seemed so convinced that I went back and double checked, which is just not like me, I’m really very lazy). Here is what I did say:

     I have never in my life attacked another person with the amount of careless venom that noelle just shot at us “insipid, ridiculous, and nauseating” [noelle’s words to describe fMh.]

     Perhap’s it is here that you decided I’d claimed for myself “the virtue of unfailing kindness” I did not, nor have I ever been under such a delusion of my virtue. But neither do I randomly insert pejoratives that are off-topic, unprovoked, irrelevant to the discussion with no accompanying reasoning at all (and then disappear) as noelle did here.

     After another enthusiastic assertion of my cruelty, I wrote further:

     Seriously? I’ve never seen myself that way, and if I am acting so horribly and am unaware of it, then I have reason to be deeply ashamed of myself. Please, create a list of these cruel personal comments (some of the worst on the net) that I have made, so that I can learn from my mistakes.

     and

     I like to think the world is full of people who mean well, even if we don’t always live up to our ideals. Thus, I hate to think that you (singular, plural?) anonymous attacker(s) intend to be cowardly liars, but as you seem unable to back-up these vague accusations of my (and Artemis’s) extreme meanness, I’m afraid I’ll have to write you off as exactly that.

     I never made claims of perfection or angelic sweetness. What I objected to were the repeated implications that I make a habit out of cruelty, that I am frequently (in your word “all the time”), egregiously (”the worst on the net”) vicious. I maintain that these claims are flagrant falsehoods.

     As far as your (and anonymous’s) single example, well, in my all too human weakness I find myself biting my fingers to resist reacting with sarcasm. Janet may not be proud of me for that particular moment, and I do hate to disappoint Janet. But in this case, I think I disagree with her.

     I personally found that diabolical –Must. Resist. Sarcasm.– attack of Seuss humor a sadly limp noodle to be whipping me with. You do realize that “me” (the commenter) had just said, and I quote: “And many brown babies die because their brown moms would rather not go to a doctor, although they do have free medical care”

     I find my restraint in response rather deserving of some sort of medal of extreme valor.

     That sentiment from “me” is one of the most sincerely ugly things I have ever read, and I know that it deserved to be called out as such. Is that a personal attack? Probably. Was it vicious? Arguably. Am I justifying my cruelty? Could be. But I am enough of a sinner that I do not regret it, and I think you will find, though you spend the rest of the winter devoted to the task, you will uncover (few and far between) nothing more horrifying (gasp) than this.

     I never claimed to always be sweetness and light. I never claimed to have a spotless record. A claim you could not be able to make yourself. I wonder, why would you include this gleefully mean parenthetical: “(which [fMh readers] obviously keep reading for whatever reason)” Not nice, mami, not nice at all. Or how about making bets about the next time I say something unkind. That’s not very nice. Or How about this quote: “But you try to fly that kind of logic to justify your meanness here all the time.” A personal attack on me, claiming that I use meaningless semantics to justify my constant cruelty, a claim that I do not believe you have even remotely shown justification for.

     You might think of making a resolution mami, like the one you linked to above.

     I tend to think that you do believe this plethera of meanness, this trail of heartless cruelty on my part really does exist. You’ve certainly been the only one brave enough to say so as yourself. So by all means, if you stand by your statements, then prove it, to yourself and to me.

     But honestly I think you need to take a good hearty look at your perception. You were clearly convinced that I’d made some claims of sainthood about myself that I have not made. Perhaps, you and your anonymous co-accuser(s) are reacting emotionally and rather illogically to the fact that you frequently do not agree with me and do not like my sometimes blunt and even tactless tone at those moments. Then you mistake hearty disagreement (of which I am a master) for meanness and personal attacks.

     You may find this distinction semantic justification for my “all the time” meanness, but while I have no problem insulting ideas, I do not make a habit of calling people names like “idiot” nor tell them they are “acting like idiots” nor ask them “if they need a frontal lobotomy” nor tell them that they (or their blogs or their posts) are “Insipid, ridiculous, and nauseating” or anything of the like. (And it was rather blithely un-nice of you to imply that I might use such a distinction to justify insulting my children). The distinction I try to follow as a general rule is simple: Insult an idea, Okay. Insult a person: Not okay.

     So let us be clear, the task is not to find a few instances of me losing my relatively innocuous Seuss-ified Mormon cool, but rather to prove this habit of “all the time” meanness. You claim this is too hard a burden mami, that “going through years of posts to find [my] nasty remarks is unrealistic”. But I’m apparently nasty “all the time” it shouldn’t be so hard to prove that. Or failing that, how about finding some (lets say ten, you’ve got years of material after all) of these cruelest personal comments ever seen on the internet. You are enthusiastically maligning my character, at least make an effort to do so honestly.

     I will never be Janet, queen of nice, but I like me. I think I’m funny, and strong, and occasionally too blunt. I have a temper, but I do try, hard, to see everyone as important children of God, worthy of dignity. Perhaps I should never have wasted my time with this, perhaps I should just have let the insults pass, heaven knows, I do all the time, I don’t have the time or energy to meet every attack.

     But I am officially done. And as tyrant, I decree that unless you come with accompanying proof (as outlined above), your (heretofore) unsupported attacks on my character are hereby verboten.

     Ah, the joys of tyranny.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 28, 2008 @ 3:36 am

216. fMhLisa,

     Your diatribe was nice, but didn’t accomplish much. I personally don’t think your mean comments are any worse than most, but full display of your passive / aggressive personality does not really have anything to do with being strong.

     Comment by Brenda — January 28, 2008 @ 10:44 am

217. Oh help, I’m the queen of nice? That’s sort of like being the queen if inefficacious oatmeal! Yargh, identity crisis.

     I like you too, Lisa. Love you, even. You get sarcastic now and then, but when you misread someone you are quick to apologize and that mitigates temper. Actually, it’s probably better than perpetual oatmealy niceness since the latter can be puerile and, let’s face it, boring. Yawn me, yawn yawn.

     Comment by Janet — January 28, 2008 @ 10:46 am

218. I really don’t think people understand what it means to be passive-aggressive. Of all my failings, and they are legion, this is not one of them.

     As far as how a full display of my aggressive personality appears to you, well, I have made the decision to make my innermost thoughts and feeling a matter of public consumption, to make my mistakes and display my foibles openly and with that choice I’ve had to accept that some people are just not going to understand or like me at all. I’ve made peace with that.

     And Janet, you are NOT blah oatmeal at all. Though I do love oatmeal. You’re more like a bottomless berry trifle with lots of layers of sweet creaminess and rich berryness plus some surprising crispy moments.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 28, 2008 @ 11:30 am

219. Attacking an idea: Ok.

     Attacking someone: Not Ok

     This is your stance. Good stance.

     Telling somebody her heart is 3 sizes too small. This is attacking an idea? Not a person directly?

     You attacked many people on that thread, if I remember correctly. Lots of middle class males.

     In your defence, you say how awful “me” was. There is much Truth there. But being awful doesn’t mean you have to be awful back. Really. It doesn’t.

     Honestly, I don’t care. Attack away - it’s your blog - say whatever the f*** you want. Just be honest in your perceptions as well. You attack both people AND ideas. It’s in the nature of blogging, especially when the argument gets heated.

     Hey, people have called Janet’s husband an a**hole on this blog. (that wasn’t you, I know) It happens. People move on.

     But claiming it doesn’t happen is denial, I would have more respect for you if you said..”yeah, I attack people - sucks, doesn’t it?”

     Comment by Amy — January 28, 2008 @ 12:33 pm

220. Amy, go back and read what I wrote. Read carefully.

     First my tyrannical decree, do not so much as cross your toe over this line again. Also, I NEVER freaking said I NEVER attacked anyone in my whole life. Nor that I always live up to my goal to attack only ideas and not people. I like to have goals, they’re good.

     You may then return and apologize for saying, “claiming it doesn’t happen is denial”, which is something I most emphatically did not claim.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 28, 2008 @ 1:01 pm

221. I have never in my life attacked another person with the amount of careless venom that noelle just shot at us “insipid, ridiculous, and nauseating” [noelle’s words to describe fMh.]

     I see the word never.

     Comment by anon for this one — January 28, 2008 @ 1:06 pm

222. Yes you do, perhaps you should look at the other words as well, they work in conjunction with each other, forming sentences, and paragraphs, meaning (even nuance) beyond a single word. And now I’m officially going to start banning people. (that means you Amy-anon-w)

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 28, 2008 @ 1:08 pm

223. Ack! Her toe! The line! She crossed it!

     Comment by madhousewife — January 28, 2008 @ 1:18 pm

224. I’m seriously so mean.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 28, 2008 @ 1:27 pm

225. Go ahead and ban people. Its your blog.
     If you want to be the only person able to break your “no personal insults” policy and get away with it, that is your right.

     Comment by Blogreader — January 28, 2008 @ 1:29 pm

226. Lisa - I cannot believe how mean you are. I mean, really. You hurt my heart. Constantly. You’re nearly as mean as Artemis is snooty–I just don’t think either of you deserve to live.

     You’re so mean and she’s so snooty that I just can’t concentrate on the real issues and am instead forced to be mean and snooty due to the sheer gravitational pull of the mean/snoot mass you two create. You should never blog again.

     Comment by EmilyS — January 28, 2008 @ 1:39 pm

227. Yes but Emily, at least she’s not self-involved ;).

     How’s that essay submission coming along? Nag nag.

     Comment by Janet — January 28, 2008 @ 1:43 pm

228. Why the idiot-me do my emoticons never work? Is there a pouty emoticon? Imagine it here.

     Comment by Janet — January 28, 2008 @ 1:44 pm

229. Alright Kids- play nice. Don’t make Lisa turn this blog around…
     Seriously, can’t you leave it alone now? Sometimes we’re all unnecessarily snarky and throwing things that someone might not be proud of into a person’s face just makes you a bit of a jerk. Pot calling kettle black-ish jerk.

     Comment by McMommy — January 28, 2008 @ 1:47 pm

230. Janet - pardon me, but that’s self-absorbed (just anyone can be self-involved, but it takes a special talent–like mine–to be self-absorbed). And don’t you forget it. B-)

     The essay submission will apparently be produced, like all of my work, between the hours of 3am and 5am on the morning of the deadline…. *sigh* How’s yours!?! Impress me with your preparedness!

     Comment by EmilyS — January 28, 2008 @ 1:50 pm

231. McMommy - I’m not a jerk. You’re a jerk. So there. Neener neener.

     Comment by EmilyS — January 28, 2008 @ 1:51 pm

232. Are you really arguing with more than one person, Lisa? Are you sure there’s no sock puppetry going on here?

     I don’t think that the hater(s) will be convinced, no matter what you say. S/he/them has decided that you’re a tyrant. And best of all, the recurring main argument is “it’s not fair.” (Why does Lisa get to say “three sizes too small” and I don’t get to say “insipid”? It’s not fair!)

     Once somebody decides that It’s Not Fair, there’s usually little you can do to change their mind. (You ever argue with a five-year-old?) Further discussion and explanation is probably pointless. Maybe if you ignore them for a while, they’ll find a more interesting toy, or go play in their own sandbox.

     Good luck!

     Oh, and Janet? You are definitely the most efficacious oatmeal ever. With brown sugar and cinnamon on top.

     Comment by Kaimi — January 28, 2008 @ 1:53 pm

233. EmilyS
     I am rubber and you are glue…

     Comment by McMommy — January 28, 2008 @ 1:54 pm

234. I was just talking to Fatimah about how some of the ways that black feminists have empowered themselves is by forming communities, then basically demanding the right to define themselves. And I guess in a way that’s the battle I feel like I’m fighting. I’m tired of people trying to define me, us, this blog, this community in ways that I feel are deeply unfair and untrue.

     But you are right, Kaimi, I need to stop now. You’re also right that it a lot of it was one person, and I’m disappointed that she choose to go the multiple pseudonym route, because I do admire her in a lot of ways.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 28, 2008 @ 2:04 pm

235. Lisa, I love you to pieces, but I don’t think swatting at each other anonymously (or even with consistent names) online about who is a big ol’ meanie is really what bell hooks etc. are up to. What defines them–or you–in the end won’t be the pissy interchanges into which we all insinuate ourselves occasionally but rather the brunt of our work. bell hooks, as it turns out, is quite personally rude on occasion (I’ve seen her totally dismantle rather hapless bystanders) but her thoughts and work towards love still stand out as more to me. The brunt of your work is to make a safe place for people who struggle, to bring struggle into the light and work for change. A few people (and there has been more than one IP) don’t change that. You–and I’m willing to bet my big ol’ pot of cinnamony brown-sugared oatmeal the people poking at you with sticks as well–are all better than this particular exchange. So back to business? You are like those feminists to which you allude–this blog has made the entire supposedly impossible notion of “Mormon feminism” rather mainstream. That’s a bigger deal than whether or not you occasionally resort to sarcasm or I to oatmealy olive-branch proffering that might actually be cowardice.

     Spirals of negativism spiral. Luckily, so do spirals of other types.

     Comment by Janet — January 28, 2008 @ 3:11 pm

236. Janet, you are my hero.

     Comment by Heather O. — January 28, 2008 @ 3:24 pm

237. […] of you might have followed the flame war going on at FMH about Artemis’ thoughts on nursery.  (Warning: Things got really ugly on that thread, so view at your own risk.)  Basically, Artemis […]

     Pingback by Mormon Mommy Wars » More On Opting out — January 28, 2008 @ 4:59 pm

238. this sound ideal, however, if you personally spend a full Sunday in nursery you may find it quite high in the challenge level. where is the scheduled time for potty breaks, babies crying when their parents drop them off (which may happen for several children 30+ minutes) and temper tantrums and kids that just don’t simply have an easy time following this plan? The nursery is often short-handed to begin with and always filled with unexpected emotional ‘fires’ to put out.

     I think it’s improtant to remember you are not PAYING the nursery leaders, this is their volunteer time and it’s a hard calling to have even with a simple plan and much less required prep. beyond what’s already expected. I believe the lesson books The Church puts together are inspired and offer the structure and necessary guidance for this short time our children are there and any available toys are there because they have most likely been donated. I wonder if you will be donating this list of toys?

     Comment by liz — January 28, 2008 @ 5:26 pm

239. I’m sad to see this turn so ugly.

     Comment by waiting — January 28, 2008 @ 5:34 pm

240. best line of the entire string: ” I just think that drawing that boundary too small can backfire on a parent. Personally, I wouldn’t forbid things like Bionicles or Barbies — but I would draw the line at, say, a prostitute doll or submachine BB-gun.” zina w is probabyly a geenyis. BUT, lest i sound TOO glowing, i’ve loved my prostitute doll for years and am deeply grateful my parents didn’t interfere, especially when i played woodenly with it at church.

     Comment by geo — January 28, 2008 @ 6:11 pm

241. just a few thoughts.

     I’d be hesitant to change anything that would deviate from the lesson manual- but only because I was under the impression that before the manuals were even published, the content was a result of inspiration.

     I agree that toys that make noise and flash are not ideal. But what about wooden toys? They are difficult to sterilize. Same thing with fabric…

     Pine cones, seashells, nuts, and seeds all give me the heebie-jeebies because of the slightest choking hazard they might pose. Not to mention sterilization…

     Finally, I know my kids and they have a tendency to throw their toys. A wooden toy seems like it might do a lot more damage.

     Comment by Fan of Melissa&Doug Toys — January 28, 2008 @ 6:20 pm

242. lest there be any misunderstanding from my post #241, i love zina w’s point of view. i wanted to clarify for the literalist mentality so pervasive on this blog. the indictment of john le carre lamenting the average american reader’s loss at irony seems to hold particularly true for the average american MORMON reader. wait, i’m having a vision: i see a whole new string starting…

     Comment by geo — January 28, 2008 @ 6:58 pm

243. Oh, and Janet, emoticons need a space before and after. Is this what you were looking for?
     

     Comment by Heather O. — January 28, 2008 @ 7:00 pm

244. This is still my favorite emoticon:
     

     Comment by Heather O. — January 28, 2008 @ 7:04 pm

245. i came back from an internet-free week to several emails from friends wondering why i haven’t been commenting on this post. i was quite wary to wander over here and read it. my husband is a waldorf teacher and most of our parenting practices are waldorf-inspired. i found most of the comments so hateful and angry that i hardly got through a third of them. i’m just going to say my piece and depart. i’m feeling quite vulnerable at the moment so i probably won’t even return to see my own comments torn apart.

     first of all, i have been amused and confused to see that almost every time artemis posts, she is slammed and ridiculed and her character shredded. it’s weird because her posts are almost universally the most innocuous; far more controversial posts get barely a whimper compared to artemis’ offerings. i have the privilege of knowing artemis in person and i’ll tell you that she is one of the kindest, most diplomatic people i’ve ever known and i can’t imagine her bravery in continuing to post when she is so endlessly and almost universally denigrated when she does so.

     second of all, my husband is a waldorf preschool teacher of between 10 and 12 students, whose classroom is full of yarn, knitting needles, pinecones, seashells, building blocks, and similar artifacts secretly collected by prison inmates. why do some of you refer to children as though they are complete savages? despite the abundance of deadly materials in his classroom, my husband has never seen a child in his classroom garrot another child with yarn, poke somebody’s eye out with a pinecone or swallow a seashell. apparently, when children are gently and contientiously attended by caring adults, they don’t kill each other. they also don’t rip down tablecloths and smash teapots, both of which are present in his classroom. what are the odds?

     artemis is suggesting that her ward’s nursery is more structured, healthier for both body and spirit, gentler on the earth, and more developmentally appropriate. how dare she, really? how snobby! much better that she not care about her child’s environment. or perhaps it’s just better if she bitches about it and doesn’t take the opportunity to make things better, an opportunity she was offered.

     ok, end snark.

     my children are in marigold’s age range. i love to take my kids to artemis’ house because she has toys they recognize - open-ended toys made from natural materials. that being said, i would never prevent my children from playing at somebody’s house because of their toys, or even because of their television. and i know artemis wouldn’t either. so much of what she said seems to have been taken entirely out of context. artemis didn’t degrade anybody else’s choices. she didn’t say she was a better parent or promote waldorf principles as the ideal for all children in all places. clearly, the ideas she laid down in her post are not unique to waldorf, as evidenced by the many people who posted that their nursery was structured similarly without any knowledge of waldorf.

     it seems to me that the basic ideas she laid down were very simple and, i think, essentially inarguable: simple toys made from simple materials. downgrading not only from nonbiodegradable, sweatshop-produced and likely unsafe plastic toys, but from a massive abundance of toys altogether, which is a more serious issue to mental and spiritual development than the materials of the toys themselves. healthy food. engaging music and activities, so the kids aren’t running wild for two hours but instead have a regular rhythm and know what to expect and can enjoy participating regularly. what radical ideas! how offensive!

     i asked myself, as well, where the money for such changes would come from. and then i answered that, knowing artemis as i do, of course she wouldn’t expect someone else to foot the bill. of course she would donate or make things herself, or expect to phase things in slowly, or pay for things out of her own pocket, or recognize that money that wouldn’t be going to crappy food or newly nonexistent activities could be redirected into these causes. and of course she wouldn’t just drop this list on some unsuspecting nursery leader and then walk out. i’m sure that she would be by the leader’s side every step of the way, helping to lead the songs, guide the children in the activities and answering any questions that might arise with her customary kindness and candor. i believe this is known as “giving someone the benefit of the doubt.” ever try it?

     i find it incredibly sad when parents who try very hard to retain their idealism and temper it with pragmatism and practical applications are denigrated for being snobby, stupid and insecure. why should the ideal be that we don’t think, we don’t care and we don’t try? whether you agree with artemis’ specific plan or not, shouldn’t she be congratulated for caring enough to think, and thinking enough to care, and trying to act according to her deepest parental instincts in all areas of her daughter’s life?

     i see a lot of mockery toward specific aspects of her plan, such as the suggestion that natural materials such as seashells and pinecones are offered as toys, which i find very interesting. similarly, my family has been mocked. it is confusing to me why such small details are nitpicked and the larger message of simpler things, more beautiful and creative things, and above all, fewer things, is ignored.

     were we still in the church, i would seriously considering taking my kids to church at artemis’ ward - to hell with ward guidelines. i would do so not because of the specific waldorf applications, but because i would be thrilled to have a leader or president who cares enough about my children, and their children, and everyone else’s, to go out on a limb and try to change things for the better. even if she were promoting ideas to which i was opposed, such as montessori ideals or early academics, i would still be grateful to have a leader who cared so much about my children’s emotional, spiritual and physical health. and i would hope that other parents would feel the same.

     and just for the record - those of us who go out of our way to provide our children with toys made from natural materials indeed do realize that it can become a form of materialism itself, and that buying something new is not always the best environmental choice over using something old, and that fair-trade, recycled or ecologically-friendly toys bought from small family companies are a better choice over wooden toys made from old-growth trees assembled by children in china. and it’s possible, people, for that to even be cheaper than plastic stuff. when you don’t buy your child ten-thousand toys, and instead purchase a few carefully-chosen toys, you can afford to make sure that the workers were treated fairly, that you are supporting small family companies and that from conception to disposal your product was created with a keen eye for the environment. and what a wonderful and important message for our children.

     and that is at the heart of waldorf: respect and kindness for the earth and all who live here, especially children. when i see the comments here treating children as restless barbarians who can’t wait to poke each other’s eyes out and destroy everything beautiful, my heart hurts for those children who receive such denigration. i have a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old - arguably the most destructive ages. and i can say from experience with my own children that gentleness is possible from children who are treated with gentleness. and that’s the most important thing i see advocated in artemis’ plan - gentleness and respect for children, manifested through every controllable environment. such a conscientious and loving parent should be promoted as an ideal, not dragged through the mud.

     Comment by chandelle — January 28, 2008 @ 8:12 pm

246. Interjecting here off the topic . . .
     I disagree with a couple comments citing Waldorf Toys as more expensive. A lot of simple wooden toys are actually quite inexpensive if you don’t buy them from the boutique shops. Also, how expensive IS a basket of pine cones, a basket of sea shells, and a basket of cloth dolls?

     Solution: Have the YW and YM make some of the toys for their Eagle Scout projects/ YW Recognition Awards. Make extras and donate to the church’s humanitarian efforts . . . the description of toys that the church solicits for international donation is very Waldorf-esque.

     Comment by J.A.T. — January 28, 2008 @ 8:57 pm

247. Chandelle, Id LOVE links to places like you talk about in the 2nd to last paragraph. I prefer safe, pretty, fair-trade toys (um, for myself as well as Muffin, whose happy playing with newspaper, heh) but haven’t found affordable ones except occasionally on ebay. I worry quite a lot about the “yuppie” status of the Waldorf and similar toys. I’d love to think we could come up with a way to make those toys more accessible (and a bit more affordable as well) to everyone. Maybe we could get place like Earth Goods to carry them and make a “helps sheet” for others interested in getting fair-trade toys in their area. What do you think? A lot of people don’t even know what the toys look like (so pretty!) and I think if we could find them more easily they wouldn’t be polarizing.

     Oh yeah! I though I’d invented yarn as a toy. It’s COMPLETELY Muffin’s favorite thing on the planet and he can’t bean himself with it. Yarn is the bestest toy ever.

     Comment by Janet — January 28, 2008 @ 9:09 pm

248. oh and one more thing I meant to mention.

     I work as a speech pathologist for kids under 3 and I have this one mother who is EXTREMELY particular and does not allow me to bring my own toys or materials into her home so I make-do with what is available (Diego, Pooh, etc).

     When she takes her child to church, they also have a nursery and he attends. His mother does not allow him to play with the nursery toys; each week she packs up his toys and takes them to church to play with. And I do believe that she expects him to share with the other kids…

     Comment by Fan of Melissa&Doug Toys — January 28, 2008 @ 9:10 pm

249. . . . or maybe I should get my sewing skills back in order and start making us some dollies :). And selling some at boutiques to the yuppies and then at community bazaars for less. Hee hee heee! Or hey! I’ve got a HUGE antique wash tub of California redwood cones.. They rock.

     Comment by Janet — January 28, 2008 @ 9:13 pm

250. Heather–how did you make that adorable emoticon little devil guy?

     Comment by Janet — January 28, 2008 @ 9:18 pm

251. The first step, Janet, is to be pure evil.

     

     Comment by Kaimi — January 28, 2008 @ 9:32 pm

252. Hey, people have called Janet’s husband an a**hole on this blog.

     ah…that would be me. :::blush:::

     and in janet’s own words:

     Those of us who are on the ‘net all the time inevitably lose our tempers and say stupid things on occasion. The quotation above hardly represents the best of Lisa; her passion for providing good health care for everyone got in the way of tact at that particular moment.

     my passion for supporting laboring women got in the way of tact at that particular moment and also got in the way of my ability to see the jest in what janet’s husband said. i apologized, felt like the biggest ass on the planet, and when i met him a few weeks later i ducked my head and hoped he didn’t recognize my name.

     we all say things we regret. i love lisa’s posts. i love her typos that appear as her passion spills forth without thought to grammar or style. i love her righteous anger and i thought her grinch reference was quite clever. lisa attacks ideas and sometimes spits at people. i don’t know anybody who doesn’t. i almost had to laugh at the anger directed at this post because in our friendship artemis tempers ME when i get too self-righteous or obsessive about having things just so. though our ideals are just about identical, she’s far more diplomatic than i could ever be. this post makes me think of the one a few weeks ago about how mean women can be to each other. those who thought that was a misogynistic statement are hopefully venturing over here and trying to put such accusations, sarcasm and such sheer hatefulness into the mouths of men directed at other men. try as i might, i just can’t see it.

     Comment by chandelle — January 28, 2008 @ 9:52 pm

253. oh janet. i worry about the yuppie thing too, even though we’ll never be at the income level suitable to have the label attached in a reasonable way. i worry about white flight. i worry about the importance of supporting and improving public services like education. i worry that our children, with their plant-based diet, lack of television, no association with the golden arches, and profusion of gentle, arts-based lifestyle habits, will turn into, as my grandmother asserted was inevitable, school bombers. i completely understand the fears. and yet we as parents must do what we feel instinctively is best for our children, regardless of what dismissive labels are attached to us by society.

     we buy most of our things secondhand. but firsthand, i really like a toy garden. most of their things come from small US-based companies. many of their products are unfinished or finished with a child-safe product like beeswax. they do have some higher-end, quite expensive products, but they also have cheap stuff, like cars and trucks for under $12, the cheapest playsilks you’ll find (though we prefer ahimsa silk), and soft handmade dolls for much less than you’d find elsewhere. it can be tricky to find good products for affordable prices, but i love the search and the careful consideration that means we buy less stuff and therefore can afford better quality. we always set strict limits for holidays and birthdays, like two toys per child or an upper limit of $50 altogether, and we always manage to find something wonderful within our limit.

     Comment by chandelle — January 28, 2008 @ 10:02 pm

254. Artemis, Chandelle, and others….

     I’m interested in learning which educational/development style appeals to me the most. From what I’ve seen I really like parts of Waldorf and parts of Montessori and some parts of early academics, but since what I’ve read is only from the perspective of adherents, I haven’t seen a con list to balance the pros.

     Does anyone have a good book to recommend or a good website to surf?

     Comment by reese — January 29, 2008 @ 1:43 am

255. Are you serious??? First off, the nursery is inspired from the Lord. The purpose of church is to teach and learn about Christ and what you are suggesting and trying to implement is not Christlike at all. Maybe you need to take a look at yourself and ask why this matters so much to you. My prediction is that you are very prideful. The church has a handbook for a reason. It is not optional. This is the Lords church and these are the programs that he has implemented for us as LDS. I am in total shock that you would try to change what the Lord has inspired with your own “worldly” ways and opinions.

     Comment by ME — January 29, 2008 @ 1:55 am

256. Darn. I had hoped to threadjack this with talk about emoticons, but here we are, talking about pride again. C’mon people, smily faces are SO much more fun.

     Comment by Heather O. — January 29, 2008 @ 6:53 am

257. Janet, Chandelle and others worried about their children growing up too granola-crunchy, you need to move to the Cambridge-Boston area. Seriously.

     Comment by ECS — January 29, 2008 @ 9:00 am

258. too snowy for me, but the pacific northwest should work just fine.

     Comment by chandelle — January 29, 2008 @ 9:24 am

259. ME, please read our comment policies before commenting again, it is against the rules to question a commenter (or poster’s) personal righteousness. Might I suggest that this is also a good rule for life in general, Emily Post and Jesus would both agree.

     Comment by fMhLisa — January 29, 2008 @ 9:31 am

260. Sorry to keep this thread going but I just had to add a bit of support here - we had a woman in our ward like Artemis who was very interested in the nursery not just being a dumping group for kids while parents went off and did their thing. She volunteered to be nursery leader and she and her husband really did a great job calming the place down and setting up stations/activities to focus the kids. All the parents in the ward really loved the change in spirit of the nursery and the kids weren’t as out of control afterwards. We were all really sad when her family moved from the state but our nursery has been able to keep up the ideas she implemented because every appreciated the change for the better. Kudos to parents who aren’t as apathetic as I am about stuff like that.

     Also, there was a woman in our ward who did opt out her son of nursery and even primary for that matter. She would bring her 4 year old son with her to all of the Sunday School classes. It was kind of sad because he would sit on the front row and be really interested in what was going on but whenever he raised his hand to comment, the teachers would totally ignore him because they didn’t know what to do with him. He was a really cool kid (homeschooled and friendly) but adults were pretty thrown by him and he had almost NO friends his age. We lived next door to him and whenever he saw my daughters he’d RUN over to us because he was so starved for kid attention. I think she had very good intentions and her son was obviously thriving spritually and educationally, but he was missing out on a HUGE part of childhood - being a child.

     So overall, I think Artemis has some great ideas and I don’t think she’s being extreme in throwing her suggestions out there. I’ve seen extreme and it ain’t her!

     Comment by Hollywood — January 29, 2008 @ 10:35 am

261. Ah, come on Lisa: ME’s #256 is my favorite comment so far…best. irony. ever — whether intentional or not. It made me burst out laughing. Sometimes people are their own best parodies. Jesus himself inspired the nursery manual, I’m seriously crying still.

     And as I said earlier, I think “mean” as an adjective for grownups is patently ridiculous. And anyhow, Lisa, you are not mean. And even if you were mean? Who cares? When you’re right, it doesn’t matter. Your classic “I’m Righteous and You Hurt My Feelings” thread? I swear I’m going to cross-stitch it with hearts and butterflies one of these days.

     And yeah, this thread was pretty awful — quite the wild ride. Artemis, you get the ovaries of steel award for leaving it open through the turbulence and, um, meanness directed your way. Seriously.

     Comment by RE — January 29, 2008 @ 10:51 am

262. Well, I still can’t make the devil emoticon…but I’ve got the Fonzie! And we can all use a Fonzie! :8

     Also, I’m thinking we need a post on the process of manual writing. Surely several ‘nacle members have been on those committees, yes? Some demystification may be in order.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 11:09 am

263. :8

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 11:10 am

264. Harumph and oh well. My computer dislikes me.

     Reese–If you’re interested in “attachment parenting” you probably want to take a look at Dr. Sears’ stuff. Just don’t fall for the easy trap that if you don’t follow it to the letter you are therefore “detachment parenting.” I think that while all of us have ideals, we probably all end up doing some sort of “buffet parenting” in the end–a little of this philosophy here, a little of that over yonder. Babies don’t come into the world having read the books, and sometimes they obstinately refuse to adhere to one school of thought I highly recommend reading Our Babies Ourselves for an intriguing look at cross-cultural anthropological commentary on parenting. It talks about how certain cultural ideologies become “naturalized” and embedded into our parenting styles in order to transmit varying cultural ideals. For instance, in the West where independence holds high value, children often sleep in their own room and become high academic achievers. In cultures which do not define “smartness” as being composed of high math/reading/etc. skills but rather a high work ethic and prowess and cooperation, people do things a bit differently. The book helps me take a step back and ask what i may be unconsciously transmitting, and then ask whether or not I want to do so. It’s not a parenting “manual” per se, but still, quite good.

     If I remember correctly, you’re soon due with your first baby after about with the evil of infertility. Best piece of advice I can offer? Don’t beat yourself up. As this thread so aptly demonstrates, we women get huffier and more sensitive about parenting than perhaps anything else–sort of ironic when you consider all the rhetoric about how we’re the best parents because of our inherent nurturing skills. Heh. Anyhow, of COURSE we all want to parent the best we can, and of course we’re defensive of our choices and disappointed when we may fail our ideals. I honestly think women who’ve tried for a long time to have kids are even worse about it–or at least I’m awful to myself, chronically. Whatever “school” of parenting you choose, the most important things are these: your baby is safe, your baby is loved, your baby learns to treat herself and others with kindness and forgiveness. The rest is gravy.

     And other people probably have great book recommendations, so I’ll shut up now.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 11:20 am

265. Hey, how come that emoticon worked up there in the last comment? Now trying once again for the Fonze :8 please work!

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 11:23 am

266. oh damn. I give up on those cute little things. Hangs head in computer shame.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 11:23 am

267. It was kind of sad because he would sit on the front row and be really interested in what was going on but whenever he raised his hand to comment, the teachers would totally ignore him because they didn’t know what to do with him.

     Well, that’s a durned shame! After many years as a teacher in the church, the two best questions still came from primary children:

     “Do Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother make babies the same way my parents do?”

     “If God was once like us and Jesus is God’s son, then who atoned for God?”

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 11:26 am

268. Reese,
     I think that Janet is right about the Buffet-style o’parenting. Almost every parenting platform out there has a mixture of awesome ideals and random flotsam that just wieghs it down. No two children are going to respond to any learning style the same way, and in spite of our best efforts, not every parent is able to follow the style they originally think they would prefer. Pick and choose, parenting should be more organic than a set of rules, guidelines, or books. Take the best of everything and leave out what doesn’t work for your family. That being said, do look into the “Teaching Children…” series by Richard and Linda Eyre or the book “3 Steps to a Strong Family” by the same authors, which offers a kind of menu for different ideas and strategies. Also, the author’s name escapes me for the moment but “Raising Self-Disciplined Children” which was written by a pair of child psychologists who specailized in family counseling.

     Comment by McMommy — January 29, 2008 @ 11:57 am

269. from post 262: “Ah, come on Lisa: ME’s #256 is my favorite comment so far…best. irony. ever — whether intentional or not. It made me burst out laughing.”

     i’ll repeat myself here, responding to the literalist mentality so painfully and self importantly pervasive on this blog: “the indictment of john le carre lamenting the average american reader’s loss at irony seems to hold particularly true for the average american MORMON reader. wait, i’m having a vision: i see a whole new string starting…”

     the most subtle indictment of all, however, is to observe certain “pundits” on here, while bemoaning some attack or another, respond almost exclusively to being baited. notice how rarely they take up a thread outside precious baiting. point is, they not only WANT the attacks, but will invent them were none given. notice further that any idea for discussion outside a narrow field of inquiry is udderly ignored (ha, had to pun that for allusion’s sake to the blog platform. sorry, sorta.) anyway, let’s all watch while one or all of them quote the blog bylaws for threads. yet this post puts them in a quandry, although probably not astute enough to recognize they are in one:

     Comment by geo — January 29, 2008 @ 12:01 pm

270. (oops, i must have inadvertently employed html coding that deleted some of my last post which elucidated the quandry as follows: “if i respond to this post then i’m doing precisely as she claims, but i must respond because i’ve been so baited, but i can’t because i’ll be playing right into her observation….but i must…but…can’t. does…not…com..pute…must…respond…but…can’t…does…not…com..pute…does…not…com…pute…”

     Comment by geo — January 29, 2008 @ 12:06 pm

271. geo, why don’t you write the post starting with the apt quotation and submit it? Its a great quote and I’m admittedly “not astute” these days what with sleep deprivation.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 12:10 pm

272. (geo–by the way, glad to play. I don’t get enough gaming these days!)

     Reese–my sleep deprivation is case-in-point for parenting books and the pressure of other parents, all of which tell me (some quite sternly) that my child is most certainly old enough to sleep through the night now. He seems not to be aware of this. Oh well. You just prepare as best you can and take the rest as it comes, to be quite cliche.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 12:13 pm

273. :)8

     Comment by Jami — January 29, 2008 @ 12:18 pm

274. oh well. ;)8 :l8 :(8 Thought I’d give it a shot. I too hang my head in unsmiling shame.

     Comment by Jami — January 29, 2008 @ 12:24 pm

275. yo, janet, second time i’ve posted the “quote,” although original with me and only became a quote as i quoted meself. regardless, it won’t get any traction here. far too afield of unctuous for that.

     Comment by geo — January 29, 2008 @ 12:30 pm

276. geo–Well, it is sorta easy to lose things in a post this long, eh? Mormons are not terribly adept at irony it is true. We need to watch more British television, perhaps. And (yes, still sleep deprived) I LOVE the word unctuous. Now I must go run errands and invent reasons to say “unctuous!” Unctuous unctuous unctuous. (subtext: somebody needs a nap rather badly)

     Jami–I think it’s an emoticon conspiracy against us.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 12:38 pm

277. I suspected as much. :s

     Comment by Jami — January 29, 2008 @ 12:43 pm

278. 

     Comment by EmilyS — January 29, 2008 @ 1:02 pm

279. bwa hahahhahahha!

     Guess this confirms that I am, in fact, pure evil….

     Comment by EmilyS — January 29, 2008 @ 1:02 pm

280. Janet

     

     It’s all in the spacing. Run your mouse over an emoticon you like, and it will show you what you have to type to get what you want.

     Comment by Heather O. — January 29, 2008 @ 1:48 pm

281. +:-) Exorcizing EmilyS

     Comment by meems — January 29, 2008 @ 1:52 pm

282. mmmmeeeeemmmmmmsssss!!!!!! nnoooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

     ackkkkkkkk!!!!!!!

     O:-)

     Comment by EmilyS — January 29, 2008 @ 2:03 pm

283. see? didn’t work.

     

     Comment by EmilyS — January 29, 2008 @ 2:03 pm

284. 

     Comment by geo — January 29, 2008 @ 2:10 pm

285. :goofy:

     Comment by geo — January 29, 2008 @ 2:11 pm

286. (just experimenting out of curiosity, despite despising emoticons. “despite despising?” hmm.)

     Comment by geo — January 29, 2008 @ 2:13 pm

287. Oh is the Fonze? I was trying for a thumbs up smiley. I found one, but I am pretty sure the blog will not show it right. It’s very likely to look like mess of mangled letters and symbols.
     Or simply a web page address.
     I celebrate the Tech-impared Me!

     Comment by Jami — January 29, 2008 @ 2:27 pm

288. DRAT! Or it may simply be stripped out completely.

     Comment by Jami — January 29, 2008 @ 2:30 pm

289. geo, the goofy didn’t show up. Much sadness. Let’s see if inept me can make my beloved Fonze appear: :8

     Emily, you really shouldn’t write your Eugene England Memorial contest essay while embodying Lucifer you know. It will taint your prize money.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 3:27 pm

290. Dagnabbit! Jami, the curse seems to have left you but remained with me. Clearly EmilyS/Lucifer is at fault.

     I said “despite despising” aloud three times before I bit my tongue. I am very proud.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 3:28 pm

291. Janet - oh don’t worry. I’m only embodying Lucifer whilst at work. I promise to channel all sorts of Mormon goodness when I get home tonight and stare blankly at my uninspired cursor for a few hours. I’m going to eat mac&cheese to nourish and strengthen myself for the ordeal ahead.

     But anyway, I know I have no real chance at that prize money, and I’m mostly just submitting to prove to myself that I can be bold and enter scary contests. That is a hugely important step for me. Deep steadying breath. Late night hours reaping the procrastination I have sown. ack.

     Comment by EmilyS — January 29, 2008 @ 3:34 pm

292. Chandelle (#259)–are you guys going to move to the Pacific Northwest? We are! Or I hope so, having just turned down oodles of jobs there to stay here for a year so DH can do a fellowship he covets and so I can go to Cambridge (England, sorry ECS) the next. Yay for Oregon and Washington and Northern California! Three cheers for gortex but also an abundance of organic flannel!

     BTW, your grandma is funny. My mother was raised with neither electricity nor running water, I’ve lived that way myself, and so far we have yet to write lengthy political manifestos accompanied by explosives. (Small sample size admittedly, but still–your kids will become the unabomber because they don’t have a TV? Brahahaha! Then again, I worry mine will become cynical because we have one.)

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 3:35 pm

293. Don’t be silly, Emily. You do so. I’ve placed in contests I didn’t even know I’d entered (professors seemingly dropped off things w/o my knowledge) and you’re way less saccharine and cloying than I am.

     I am going to nourish and strengthen myself with gingersnaps now. Oh–and at least you’re actually *writing* something. If I submit a piece, it will have been authored by the pre-baby me. Although “the baby on the bus goes ‘goo goo goo, goo goo goo, goo goo goo” has a certain theological clarity, yes? ANd Old McDonald and his farm? Salt of the earth, those animules, clearly in need of religious explication.

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 3:38 pm

294. Hi Artemis,
     I doubt you are reading this low, but if you are… I’m sure you need a hug by this point.

     I’m happy that Marigold has such a devoted and loving mother that is willing to go to such lengths for her. I understand your want to be protective and only give her the best. However, it is necessary to make sure that she is exposed to a variety of experiences to ensure that she grows into a well rounded human that knows how to adapt to different situations.

     My baby is going to nursery in a few months, and I understand your worries. I grit my teeth at the thought of snotty kids with dirty toys eating high fructose corn syrup and coughing on one another. I’m a germaphobe, and it will go against my grain to drop my baby off amongst who knows what microbes… but I’m going to take her. Part of faith in God and the Church is trusting your children to their program and knowing that it will be all right.

     Comment by Woogie — January 29, 2008 @ 3:53 pm

295. Janet - you are a wonderful encourager. I love you muchly. Let me encourage you in return:
     - you are not in the least bit cloying
     - you write really really well and you should submit something, even if its pre-baby something. no shame in recycling!
     - remember that when you have some time to write something new (and not being a mommy, I have no idea when that might be), you will have all sorts of new and wonderous experiences from which to draw. hooray!

     Comment by EmilyS — January 29, 2008 @ 4:14 pm

296. Janet, I know we can do this. It just doesn’t feel right succeeding without you.
     eight no space close parenthesis
     8 no space )
     OK now, let’s put them together:
     
     YAY!
     (I’m gonna feel really silly if that didn’t work. Would one of you kind admin people make it go away if I failed at the ‘Fonze.’

     Comment by Jami — January 29, 2008 @ 6:01 pm

297. yes, that’s always been the plan. oregon, washington, northern california or the vancouver area. i love the rain and clouds and ocean and green and liberals, and hate dust and mountains and snow and heat and conservative politics, hence i should be there and not here. and if you move up there too it will be all the better for me! right now we’re especially looking at bellingham, WA.

     yes, my grandmother really is funny. she has come around more to our “weird” parenting practices since seeing all the benefits in our children, but back in the day she was quite concerned that being without mcdonald’s and television would turn our kids into serious social deviants.

     Comment by chandelle — January 29, 2008 @ 6:23 pm

298. Okay, I have so got to try this

     Comment by Jo — January 29, 2008 @ 7:54 pm

299. Whoo hoo! It worked. :0

     Comment by Jo — January 29, 2008 @ 7:55 pm

300. Bellingham is one of the places we turned down a job, and we’re actually kindasortamaybe considering calling them and asking for it back, because that is THE town we want to end up in! Woohoo, B-ham!

     Jami, watch:

     (Heather O is my emoticon tutor as well–thanks y’all)

     Comment by Janet — January 29, 2008 @ 9:59 pm

301. Congrats Janet!

     Comment by Jo — January 29, 2008 @ 10:24 pm

302. The curse is lifted! Congrats!

     Comment by Jami — January 29, 2008 @ 11:55 pm

303. Well first I have not read through the more then 300 replies but wanted to add the comments of a current Nursery Leader as well with one of 15 years of early education experience.

     First we are given guidleines to teach from the Primary Manual, these are what we are to teach in the lessons, and there is alot of room in there for seasons and open ended activites..The primary program is a good program..let the scedule that is in it be followed.

     We actively encourage singing and play in ours..no table cloths though. All toys are kept in a cupboard, and we only bring out what we want the children to play with that Sunday. For an example in Dececember..WE used a wood table, blankets and dolls to create a nativity scene as we were talking about baby Jesus that week, we also took out the few dolls and stuffies that we have, brought in a couple more, and some blankets, had board books about the nativity out, a few simple puzzles, and our duplos and mat out…craft was a coloring sheet..but mostly we followed the manual really…

     Your daughter needs interactions of a variety for growth, and just because the church doesnt use the system you love well doesnt mean it is not going to help your child grow and understand the simple concepts taught in nursery..That Jesus loves them, that there family loves them, etc…as for being a bit weary I can understand that..most first time parents go through it, but think of it as growth for both of you…

     By the way we are blessed to have 3 nursery leaders so we can rotate and get to some classes too…

     Comment by Hollie — January 30, 2008 @ 8:12 am

304. Justify all you want, it’s pretty snooty…

     …not to want to change something for the better, I hope we all do that in our own feministmormonhousewife lives.

     But, to consider not sending your daughter to nursery because it’s not rarified enough for your family, and then on top of it, your guilty conscience plagues you because you would be depriving the other child of your child’s presence? Wow.

     Have you thought of what it’s doing/will do to Marigold to believe that people and situations have to qualify for her participation?

     It’s difficult not to get a little snarky here.

     I have 4 really fabulous, intelligent, activist, grade school aged daughters, and I have found that the re-education I do at home is as important as anything else. Instead of trying to keep the girls away from things I find disagreeable, I try to give them a lens through which to view them.

     Teaching them that our family has certain values and does things a certain way without disparaging others is a fine line to walk, but well worth it, I think. My goal is to prepare them to contribute their best and appreciate others as well.

     Comment by jqrollins — January 30, 2008 @ 9:17 am

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