Young Women and Date Rape Prevention Guest Post by Freddie
At 19 years old, I was called to be First Counselor in our Single’s Ward Relief Society. Two months into my calling, our RS Presidency was asked to come to a special meeting with our Bishopric and the Stake Presidency. The men told us that, in the preceding six months, three sisters in our ward had come to them for counsel because they had been the victims of date rape. They were very concerned about the safety of the sisters in our ward, and wanted to have a special fireside to talk about ways that women can help protect themselves. They suggested self-defense classes during Enrichment. The goal was to have a frank discussion, as sisters, about local resources, including Rape Crisis Centers and law enforcement, as well as counseling options for trauma. I can’t emphasize how great our priesthood leadership was — none of them blamed the sisters, explicitly or implicitly. Shortly thereafter we had our fireside. It was well-attended, and the Stake President came and gave a talk about how victims of assault are not to blame, and how the Atonement and professional counseling can help heal wounds. It was a great experience.
Shortly after the fireside, several more sisters in the ward took me aside. They said that they wished that they could have had this kind of discussion in YW. All of them had been victims of date rape or some form of sexual assault in high school, but none of them had known how to deal with it. I was shocked that so many sisters in our Relief Society had had those experiences — not one of them had reported it to law enforcement, and one had never had the courage to speak up to anyone before. We brainstormed as a Relief Society Presidency, and decided that we should contact the local family wards in our stake and try to host similar firesides for their YW. Two of the sisters who were assaulted in high school had been 15 at the time, so we wanted to speak to all of the Young Women, not just Laurels.
We were surprised to find that none of the local YW leaders felt comfortable with the fireside. They all insisted that the YW are too young, too innocent, and that they would just be ’scared’ by such a fireside. We tried to explain that the fireside was intended to (hopefully) give the girls tools to protect themselves, but our arguments fell on deaf ears. Over and over again, the leaders insisted that the girls were not ‘emotionally mature’ enough to handle a discussion of date rape prevention, despite the fact that several of our RS sisters had been assaulted when they were YW. I had only been out of high school for a little over a year, and I disagreed profoundly. It has been a few years, but this still troubles me.
Is there anyone out there who can shed some light on the reason these women refused?
Is it harsh for me to say because they are idiots?
Seriously, some people live in complete denial. I can guarentee that one of my sisters would not have allowed her daugther to attend. She wants her to retain that innocence the rest of her life and is banking that nothing will happen.
I think that some people (not all) still think sexual purity in a relationship is a women’s responsibility and that if something happened it is the women’s fault. I have a friend who was disfellowshipped when she was date raped. I am always shocked she is a member of the church.
Finally, I cannot tell you how impressed I am at both your leaders and you for addressing this so well. I have been in many singles wards and most (not all) leaders I had would have chosen to pretend it wasn’t an issue.
Comment by Tanya Sue — April 6, 2008 @ 9:24 pm
I think it’s a combination of factors.
First, there is probably an ostrich effect going on here: let’s pretend it doesn’t happen, that way we’ll protect ourself. There is probably a bit of old-fashioned thinking going on here, a bit of “blame the victim” mentality. No doubt there are still people in the church who believe that women shouldn’t “allow” themselves to be raped.
Church teaching says that YW shouldn’t date until they are 16, and then should only go on group dates - so there is probably the idea that any woman who finds herself in this situation is probably ignoring church culture. It’s not so much “she deserves it” but more a reluctance on the part of the leaders to be seen as condoning something that is against church teaching. (Of course that fails to take into account the fact that “date rape” doesn’t just happen on dates. Nor does it mean that a YW is safe from rape if she is in a group situation.)
Comment by Quimby — April 6, 2008 @ 9:33 pm
I think a large part of the obstinate refusal to allow for this kind of fireside is a misguided coping mechanism. They are so very very afraid of this that they refuse to admit that it is possible. And when or if it does happen, then they will blame the victim to preserve their illusion of safety.
If you can convince yourself that the victim did something wrong, and that is why someone raped her then as long as *you* don’t do those things then no one will rape you. The leaders were just engaging in this kind of logic from a 3rd person perspective- “there is no risk yet, they are too innocent, therefore they are safe.”
Comment by Starfoxy — April 6, 2008 @ 9:36 pm
In my young women’s, it was a Branch, we went to a rape crisis center for mutual and another year went to a Woman’s Safety presentation at our local college. It gave me the strength to speak out, and protect myself. This was in Minnesota where feminism (all the women are strong), at least at the time, was so common you could practically drink it from the water fountains.
I KNOW WE NEED THIS IN OUR CULTURE!!
Comment by susan — April 6, 2008 @ 9:43 pm
This was in the early 90’s.
Comment by susan — April 6, 2008 @ 9:43 pm
I think too, that the YW leaders are probably naive. Rape is kept so secret that although it is tragically common, many people are simply unaware of that fact. Your stake leaders saw a recurring theme in the stake and moved to address it; the YW leaders in your ward believe that the chances this would affect one of their girls is slim and therefore don’t want to have look at such an ugly topic head on. They aren’t idiots, they are human.
Comment by E — April 6, 2008 @ 9:48 pm
i’ve been inspired to bring this up in our next YW board meeting.
thank you, for your post.
and susan,
..the men are good looking and all the children are above average.
Comment by mfranti — April 6, 2008 @ 9:51 pm
aaack.
It’s the same argument that some LDS parents use to not talk to their daughters about sex. They don’t find such topics “necessary” until marriage or even after, when the inevitable confusion and trauma manifests itself. I took a dating and marriage prep class in college. When the teacher asked whose parents had talked to them about sex, I was shocked to see only about five people raise their hands. (In a class of about 25.)
IMO, the real reason is the lack of comfort on the part of parents/yw presidents that is preventing needed instruction/discussion.
Comment by sare — April 6, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
wanted to add to my last statement to clarify: the class was at an LDS university.
Comment by sare — April 6, 2008 @ 9:55 pm
This is such a fantastic idea. Date rape does not just happen on dates. I had some problems with a teacher at 15 years old. I don’t know definitions exactly, but probably closer to bad harassment than assault. I never told a soul. I don’t know why not, I had and have a great relationship with my parents and I had strong, supportive friends. I think I just made a judgment that it there was limited remaining time I had to spend with the jerk, and as long as nothing *too* bad happened, it would be easier to just suffer through then try to forget it ever happened. It’s hard to say for certain, but if we had had something like this at church, with phone numbers made available and all, I think there is a good chance it would have given me the courage to be more assertive about it. I’m “over it” now, except that I do feel bad that perhaps my inaction caused other girls to suffer, that could have been prevented.
PS: I 110% agree with #3.
Comment by anon woman — April 6, 2008 @ 10:00 pm
wow, some seriously mangled grammar in a couple of my sentences there, sorry folks, hope you get what I was trying to say.
Comment by anon woman — April 6, 2008 @ 10:01 pm
Incredible. I don’t understand people who think “it can’t happen to me” or “that would never happen to my child” or “they are to young and pure” load of crap that is. These young women are smarter than we are. They are exposed to more than we were and are taught less about sex and rape. There was a post on here that talked about that very thing and how stupid people in the church can be on such subjects. It is so sad. Great post, though, i will bring it up to my presidency.
Comment by Sunshine — April 6, 2008 @ 10:46 pm
I’m curious to know if there was any sort of special talk given specifically to the men about respecting boundaries, no means no, that just because you bought someone dinner doesn’t mean you “deserve it”, even how to help their female friends report incidents if they are aware something happened. I don’t mean to denigrate the great response and concern of the priesthood in dealing with proactive measures on the sisters’ side, just wondering.
Comment by sophia*rising — April 6, 2008 @ 11:08 pm
sophia*rising, I would kind of doubt it, because most Mormons would assume that Mormon guys - especially priesthood holders - just get it and would never do anything like that. Unfortunately that’s also a bit naive.
Comment by Quimby — April 6, 2008 @ 11:10 pm
Thanks for all of the comments, everyone.
I’m glad to know there are so many of you YW leaders thinking about having a special fireside — I really think it’s the right thing to do.
sophia*rising — I don’t think that there was a special priesthood talk about no meaning no, but I think it’s because they gave the chastity talk more than any other single’s ward I’ve been in. (I guess they figured the guys would realize that if something is inappropriate to do consensually it is definitely inappropriate to do it without consent.) I like your idea of including the men in this conversation — I think it would raise awareness and, like you say, maybe give them the means to help female friends or family members. Also, men and boys can be victims as well.
Comment by Freddie — April 7, 2008 @ 12:35 am
I was lucky enough to have STK YW leaders who took the opportunity at girls camp to talk to us about rape and date rape. They had a police officer come and tell us about what to do and where to go if we were victems, and they told us that we could do whatever we needed to do if we were in a situation where we were being hurt, and that it is NOT better to die than survive that. They were very clear about it not being our fault. We also had a meeting my freshman year at BYU in the dorms dealing with the topic of date rape. And, might I add, I did have a couple of roomates who were had some real bad experiences with guys who didn’t understand the meaning of the word “no.” In both cases that I knew of, the guys were active members. I don’t think that teaching the law of chastity is enough. I think there should be clear statments on a regular and not infrequent basis that NO should be taken to mean NO.
Comment by emily dawn — April 7, 2008 @ 4:17 am
Oh, and silence isn’t the same thing as consent.
Comment by emily dawn — April 7, 2008 @ 4:19 am
Is there anyone out there who can shed some light on the reason these women refused?
I can honestly say that I might have been a bit put off as a YW President if I had received a call from a random member of another ward’s RS presidency wanting to present a fireside on preventing date rape to my YW. Their refusal could have come in part because your RS presidency was overstepping their stewardship. I don’t know about your stake, but my stake is very spread out over a lot of rural area. I can tell you the names of a few RS presidents in some of the other wards, but for the most part I just don’t know these sisters. This is such a serious and important topic- Most YW wouldn’t feel comfortable having the “frank discussion” needed to fully address this topic in front of someone they didn’t know.
That being said, I think it is *very* important that this discussion be had. The YW *need* to hear this. I would present the info to the Stake YW leaders and let them plan a fireside on the subject. If the Stake Presidency hasn’t already talked to them, he needs to.
Comment by Jennifer in GA — April 7, 2008 @ 5:38 am
Lame leadership- probably women who are afraid to say S-E-X, much less say R-A-P-E. We did martial arts when I was in YW and everyone was very open as to why were were doing it, But the leaders were also mothers… so if they have lame leaders, they might not get it. Maybe share some stats with them on the number of sexual assaults and the age groups in which the assaults occur. I have seen church stats on this- but I think those were “forbidden” records– (an open reference book at LDS family services that I accidentally read for a while). Did you tell them about the number of women in your singles ward who were assaulted as well? I have found sometimes if I do the numbers, i.e.”this means that statistically, two of your YW will be sexually assaulted this year, ” goes a lot further than just suggesting the idea. Also, get the Priesthood in on it as well. Its okay for men to support the protection of their daughters….
Good for you for doing this. This may very well be why you were called to do this.
Comment by Spunky — April 7, 2008 @ 5:44 am
when I was a freshman at BYU, a guy who had served a mission in my home ward called me up to go out. Innocent and trusting, I went with him. Not good. He did stop short of rape, saying “If I go any farther, I can’t go to the temple”. When he called again, I refused to see him. Maybe he thought his behavior was perfectly appropriate, but it took me years to get over the sickness and guilt I felt. I certainly didn’t feel like I could talk to anyone about it; if felt like it was my fault for having agreed to go out with the guy.
Comment by anon for now — April 7, 2008 @ 6:21 am
I agree with Jennifer in GA. Don’t contact the wards individually.
Although it looks like this happened far enough back that it’s probably not an issue anymore (I mean that you’re probably not in the same calling, not that date rape isn’t an issue), the correct way to do this would be to ask to attend a meeting of the Stake YW Presidency. Present the situation formally and ask them to seek inspiration as how to best help protect those in their charge.
I think it’s rather absurd to blame the church for the problem of date rape. It’s not a problem that is confined to members of our church. It’s not a problem that is created by the church.
My questions on this topic are:
Why is it the church’s responsibility to teach girls how to avoid date rape?
What about parents?
Is this topic not covered in school?
I remember having a rape prevention assembly back in junior high in the mid 1980s. Has society regressed so that this information is no longer presented to the girls?
Is talking more openly about the subject in church going to mean more than if it was covered in school?
Would presenting this information in YW protect any of these girls? For example, did “anon for now” (comment 20) ever get any training on date rape prevention? Did it help when the situation came up? Why or why not?
Comment by Researcher — April 7, 2008 @ 7:29 am
There is a great Ensign article on date rape: “A Hole in Her Soul,” from the July 2006 issue.
Also, I wanted to say that I see this confusion of ignorance with innocence a lot in the Church, not just having to do with sex. I heard from a schoolteacher recently that her school district (in a predominantly Mormon area) decided not to administer surveys to the students asking questions about depression and suicidal thoughts because they thought there was no need to bother such young people about such dark ideas. It’s sad!
Comment by Tat — April 7, 2008 @ 7:33 am
Researcher-the church should acknowledge date rape and talk about it with the YW because the church is the moral authority in these girls’ lives. It is because of the strong emphasis on the YW’s responsiblity for chastity and modesty that many of these violated girls feel such intense guilt and shame.
So in the church discussion of prevention, there should also be information about resources for help and how to heal, should anything happen.
Comment by anon for now — April 7, 2008 @ 8:08 am
Why just the young women? Have a fireside for the boys, too.
Comment by Susan M — April 7, 2008 @ 8:26 am
We had a similar response in RS when the leadership wanted to talk about breast cancer awareness and estate planning. They did it, but the attendance was about as bad as one could imagine. It is as though talking about these issues will make us more vulnerable rather than more savvy and aware.
When it comes to sexuality and YW no matter how enlightened we think we are it is just difficult to picture our own daughters out there dealing with some of the sexism and harassment that is so pervasive in the schools and entertainment media.
Comment by Claudia — April 7, 2008 @ 8:32 am
Thanks for bringing this up Freddie. I’ve been attending some Spanish classes at the local Spanish branch (I’m no longer active otherwise). I may mention this to my teacher and see if she wants to mention it to the stake presidency. We live in a pretty quiet area, but we’re by no means “safe”. As for why no one would listen, yeah. . . probably denial and maybe a little “blame the victim”.
Comment by Lessie — April 7, 2008 @ 8:37 am
Our YW presidency has been debating this very topic recently. They had decided to do a night about protection and information but weren’t sure if they should have all the girls or leave the Beehives out.
I can totally understand the reluctance to include the younger girls. I think, for me, it comes out of the feeling of “do we have to expose them to the ugliness of what they could possibly face?” Unfortunately, the answer is YES. In fact, its probably the girls that are the most naive and innocent that need to hear something like this the most. Having been one of those kind of Beehives myself, I know that it’s sometimes the ones that haven’t had any exposure to the right kind of information that need it so much–they need to have the tools and education to face any situation they might encounter.
I think our ward YW leaders basically came to that same conclusion and so all the girls are invited to attend.
Comment by ErinG — April 7, 2008 @ 9:04 am
I appreciate everyone’s comments on this subject. I work at a rape crisis center and am pleased to announce that there are several Young Women groups who request us to do presentations for them on red flag behavior and dating violence. I think that slowly denial is subsiding and old attitudes that it doesn’t happen to “good mormon girls” are dicipating. Hopefully through more education and awarness we can reach out to more grils and help them understand that dating violence is not their fault, and that there are some signs they sould be aware and cautious of.
Comment by Jill — April 7, 2008 @ 9:06 am
We have a Laurel and a Beehive - I’m so glad to hear that your presidency decided to include all the girls. I would love to have a lesson devoted to this subject for both my girls.
I’ll be making this suggestion in our ward.
OK sisters.. it’s Monday… but give yourself permission to go out and make it a great day (leave sheet changing til tomorrow!)
Comment by Mary Magdalene — April 7, 2008 @ 9:07 am
I agree with 18 and 21. This is a sensitive subject and definitely needs to be addressed, but if I received a call from someone I didn’t know wanting to come talk to the young women in my ward about this topic, I would be extremely hesitant. And possibly a bit offended, because in every YW presidency I’ve been in, this comes up.
I can imagine thinking, “Um, we’ve thought about this. We’re already doing this, this, and this. And you don’t know my girls and what they’re going through.” Frequently the girls ask for self defense activities, and the leaders find ways to include talking about rape, date rape, abuse, etc. I would definitely think you were overstepping your stewardship. I would also be very concerned that you wanted to treat 12 year old beehives the same as 17 year old laurels.
So that’s my experience as a YW leader. As a mother, I have a twelve year old little beehive. We have talked about sex, date rape, rape, and abuse. But there’s no way I would allow her to attend a fireside like this. She is not naive and I understand trying to keep her innocent is stupid. But I also see no reason to scare her. And that’s what would happen. We have talked one on one, but sending her to a fireside where the tone would be very serious, possibly even somber, would scare her out of her mind.
But I’ve been a YW leader long enough to know that she’ll be ready for this type of thing probably by the beginning of MiaMaids, certainly by the end. I would hope that her leaders seek the guidance of the spirit, rather than just scheduling a fireside to be put on by people they didn’t know.
Comment by Ahna — April 7, 2008 @ 9:09 am
Ahna, the good news is… we don’t have to agree.
I absolutely would send my beehive - and probably attend as well to know for myself what material was presented, who presented it and how, and what was the reception to the information and what types of questions were fielded afterwards.
The information doesn’t change depending on the age of the listener, but how that data is understood and processed internally is in large part based on conversations in the home leading up to such a fireside. I gotta do my part.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — April 7, 2008 @ 9:31 am
Thanks again for all of the discussion.
I wanted to respond to #18 and #21 — it does make sense to do this through stake YW leadership first. Thanks.
A few more details: In my particular case (and this was over five years ago), we lived in a rural stake and the members of our single’s ward relief society presidency were each born and raised in a different ward in our stake. I was assigned to approach the ward that I grew up in about the fireside, and since I hadn’t been out of high school all that long, I knew the leadership and had known most of the YW all of my life. We also explained (and I should have mentioned this in the original posting) that we had the support of the stake presidency (we did) and that we were mostly proposing the idea — we would be happy to turn the fireside over to local leadership or to conduct it ourselves, depending on needs (we thought maybe some local YW leadership would feel more comfortable having younger women who had attended these high schools recently connecting with the girls). The response I got from the YW leadership in my home ward was what I described — they didn’t want to talk about it at all in any form in YW. And, having been raised in that ward, I can say that we didn’t ever discuss anything like this while I was a YW.
Also, (re 21) I hope it doesn’t come across like I’m “blaming the church for the problem of date rape”! Quite the contrary (thanks anon for now for your comments in #23 — I completely agree) — we found our fireside in the single’s ward to be such a good way to promote healing, to create a safe environment for discussing topics that are often avoided, and to raise awareness about the reality of the problem in our own community, that we wanted to encourage others to have these conversations. We also thought that, since our RS sisters had not had the relevant information when they were YW, it would be appropriate to try to contact younger girls who may not be having these conversations as school/home.
Comment by Freddie — April 7, 2008 @ 10:40 am
People need to talk about what abuse IS, especially when it’s date rape or something where it’s forced but with someone you know.
No one told me that the pressures I was feeling with my first husband were emotional abuse, and after we were married, of couse he sexually abused me because he’d been abusing me for years. I just didn’t know that the mind games and the pressure was wearing me down so. I just wanted to be a good girlfriend to my RM and priesthood holding husband.
I see so many girls struggle with this, thinking love takes WORK, and wanting to be a good girlfriend so they can be a good wife and it never occurs to them to just breakup. When I met my true love — it was EASY to love him because we loved each other. Yes, we need to work through our difficulties, but above all we support each other.
Comment by Natalie — April 7, 2008 @ 10:41 am
should have said ‘at school/home’
Comment by Freddie — April 7, 2008 @ 10:43 am
I was a ward leader at girls camp a couple years ago and we had a horrible situation come up on the second-to-last night. We discovered (due to an unrelated medical emergency) that a couple of the junior leaders had been molesting younger girls. (All of the junior leaders had been aware this was going on, but were trying to “handle it” themselves.) The way the stake leaders dealt with it was to send the older girls home and keep the victims there so that we could all benefit from the spirit of the next night’s testimony meeting. ????? No one ever addressed what had happened even though everyone was aware and rumors were flying like mad. The poor little girls had to listen to everyone talking about them without the support of their parents. The parents weren’t even informed until after they came to pick up the girls. I found out recently that a similar situation occurred in another stake and that again, no one knew what to do so they just ignored it and hoped it would go away. I think it is terrible that we are not giving our young women the tools that they need to protect themselves. The only lesson I remember getting was when the teacher stomped on a nicely wrapped box and related it to giving up your virginity to a boy. I have no idea why, but many young women have seen me as a person they can confide in (which I am grateful for). The things that young women deal with now are overwhelming, but they always feel that they can work it out themselves or with the help of their friends and wind up causing themselves more grief. if they could reach out to their leaders, they could find the support they are lacking. But why would they ask for help when we refuse it when it is so obviously needed?
Comment by anonymous — April 7, 2008 @ 11:05 am
thank you for this post. and for the subsequent discussion.
In response to researcher (#21), I would say emphatically YES! talking about this subject in church is going to mean so much more than talking about it at school. certainly the girls can get the bare bones info somewhere else–a number for a rape crisis hotline. how to go to law enforcement. self defense, etc.
but the fact of the matter is that the church is the source of mormons’ ideas about sexuality and chastity (at least for the most part). young women feel guilty and shamed and dirty after rape not just because they’ve been violated, but also because of whatever ideas they possess about the morality of sex. because the church promulgates those ideas–ideas which can imply dirtiness or shamefulness on the part of any girl with sexual experience, even if they don’t express that explicitly–, i think the church has an obligation (not just that this is a good idea) to state openly and with no reservation that when anyone (female or male, because as one commenter pointed out, rape is not exclusively a female problem) is coerced, compelled, or forced to have sex against their will, they bear no responsibility and no guilt for that. that the church and its leaders are there for them to help them in the process of healing and overcoming the negative affects of such an experience.
when the church speaks on this issue, it communicates to these girls (and the boys and the adults) not only information, but vital messages on the relationship between being the victim of a sexual crime or even a sexual coercion (date rape is notoriously slippery to define) and sin or guilt. if the church is going to create those ideas in the first place, it needs to correct for reasonable misinterpretations of them.
and, FWIW, i just sent a link to this post to my stake president, asking him to consider the idea not only for our singles ward but for the family wards, too. thanks for the wonderful post, freddie.
Comment by amelia — April 7, 2008 @ 12:34 pm
I’ve taught my daughter and son violence and rape prevention strategies since they were old enough to attend school.
Everyone needs this kind of information–even boys are molested and raped.
Comment by Jana — April 7, 2008 @ 12:48 pm
I would just caution against planning this in a YM/YW meeting without first letting the parents know about it and/or inviting them to be present. (In fact, it might be wise to conduct it as part of a fifth Sunday).
There are varying degrees of information that you probably want to present to different ages, and you have to depend on the preparation parents have given.
And yes, boys should be included (in the same meeting, preferably).
Comment by queuno — April 7, 2008 @ 2:06 pm
I have three children, ages 6,(boy), 4 (girl), and 1 (girl). I have frank discussions with all of them about their bodies. I’ve told them several times that if anyone touches their private parts, or asks them to touch somebody else’s private parts that they need to tell me. I’ve explained to them that if someone does these things usually they will tell them that they can’t tell anyone and even threaten them. But, that it is very important that they tell me (or their father) that these things are going on. We talk about how Heavenly Father designed our bodies and how our private parts are sacred.
I don’t need to mention sex or go into the whole mess about how molestation affects you, or the perpetrator. The important thing is that they have been warned and told what the appropriate action is.
As my children get older I will have even more discussions about their changing sexuality. It is such an important part of the plan of salvation, I don’t think anyone should be afraid to talk about it. Kids don’t miraculously know what they boundaries are for sexuality, they have to learn them.
Comment by anonymous — April 7, 2008 @ 2:39 pm
having worked at a police department in UT, some of these do not turn out to be date rapes after all. so please remember that some people abuse religion when it comes to crimes/moral tangles. with that said i am not the one judging just passing what i have encountered.
Comment by guest — April 7, 2008 @ 3:40 pm
Question for guest #40. Out of curiosity, how do you determine that a date rape occurred if there are no physical bruises, trauma, etc - is it just a he said/she said situation? And if so, is the case simply dropped because of lack of evidence? I understand that with all the pressures to live a perfectly moral life in our religion there will inevitably be some who make a mistake and try to blame someone else out of regret, but how do we tell our daughters that there are law enforcements out there to protect you if this should ever happen, only to find out that perhaps their story won’t be believed? I have 3 daughters and was molested myself as a teenager, so this does worry me.
Comment by pom — April 7, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
I have to agree this needs covered and if we risk offending the sensitivity of a few “unprepared” girls then this is better than running the risk of rape and mental emotional damage for some.
Countries who are very liberal such as the Netherlands are very early in sex education and relationship classes. This does not cause early experimentation but actually the age of 1st sexual encounter and rates of tennsge pregnancy are lower than in “religious” America where postponing the discussion is the norm.
Comment by Tarmac — April 7, 2008 @ 4:59 pm
Go, #13! I was wondering that, too!
#21, I have been a junior high school teacher in SLC for 21 years. We have had workshops for girls on this topic, but only with careful parent permission so that no parent freaks out and goes ballistic because someone talked about sex in front of their kid (as if they’d never hear it in the halls anyway). Unfortunately, NO ONE has ever thought about talking to boys at school about this — although we have a very clear zero-tolerance policy for sexual harrassment at school, so they MIGHT just get some inkling of no means no.
I’d like to see all girls AND guys (but separately, to those who suggest putting the kids together, this will not work. No one will dare to ask quesitons) get talks about this at school AND church. The more they hear it, the more it might sink in.
#27, uh, I hate to tell you this, but very, very few Beehive girls are all that innocent as far as basic knowledge. Now, practical knowledge they don’t have, but they KNOW how to look sexy and they want to attract boys — it’s just that most of them have no clue what that might lead to in male thinking.
They have ignorance, not innocence — and it’s dangerous.
Great post!
But let’s not leave it to singles, why have abuse prevention and detection for married women too? So many women do not recognize abuse when it’s not obvious. I didn’t realize my ex was emotionally abusing me and manipulating me because I always associated abuse with bruises and alcoholism. Married women could use some info, too.
Comment by apaperbackwriter — April 7, 2008 @ 5:09 pm
I think the challenge with talking this subject over with Beehive age girls is not their innocence (or lack thereof) but their immaturity. As apaperbackwriter said, some of them know how to look sexy and they want to attract boys, but they have no idea what it could lead to. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have Beehives who are still in the “Boys are gross!” stage. Even the ones who have had frank and open discussions about sex could still be freaked out and totally block out what is being taught.
So it’s not that I think Beehives (and/or Deacons) should be completely excluded from the discussion, but that a wise leader would probably want to tread lightly (at first) and really take into account the maturity level of her girls.
Comment by Jennifer in GA — April 7, 2008 @ 5:18 pm
#43 Thank you for your comments:) It is great that there are resources out there for girls in school. I am shocked that in 21 years you have never seen a sexual harrassment workshop for boys! That really worries me about the thinking that is going on out there. It’s almost as if people are thinking “well, some boys will always want to rape and abuse, so there is no use talking to them, lets just talk to the girls about what they can do to prevent and deal with it.” And we wonder why so many female victims feel like it is their fault! The leaders and educators must be wondering why there are still rapes going on al all with all these girls and women becoming educated on how to stop it!
Apart from the fact that boys are also possible victims, there is a possibility that educating boys and men on how their actions can be abusive and the consequences of treating women this way may actually prevent rapes more than teaching a 90 pound 16 year old how to defend herself against a 150 pound man.
Comment by pom — April 7, 2008 @ 5:54 pm
#44…Yes! You are so right about the varying degrees of maturity when it comes to Beehives…and Deacons too. I think they need the same information, but presented separately from the MiaMaids and Laurels. Maturity varies in the older groups too, of course, but the years between twelve and fourteen, in our society, are huge. The growth and change are similar to the differences between an eighteen month old and a three year old.
Comment by Ahna — April 7, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
If it leads to sexual assault, that is not their fault, no matter how they are dressed or undressed.
Just wanted to make sure you aren’t arguing that a girl is “asking for it” if she looks sexy.
Comment by Quimby — April 7, 2008 @ 6:15 pm
i think apaperbackwriter was simply pointing out that our society equips girls with a certain kind of sexual knowledge very early–the knowledge of how to create an appearance of sexuality and attractiveness–, but that our society (i would say both our larger society and mormon society specifically) does not give those same girls the practical knowledge and understanding to go with it. and that what we end up with is girls who are thinking mostly in terms of trying to fit in and look pretty without understanding some of the complexities of their behaviors.
i certainly don’t mean to imply that a girl or a woman bears any degree of responsibility for being abused or raped because she looks sexy or behaves in a way meant to attract sexual interest. i don’t believe that even when a woman consciously manipulates a situation to arouse sexual interest (this becomes more murky in instances of date rape, however). and i don’t read apaperbackwriter as meaning to imply that either. the point is more about how we give certain kinds of knowledge to our girls but still refuse to give them other kinds of knowledge when it comes to sex. it’s the ignorance/innocence made later in comment 43.
Comment by amelia — April 7, 2008 @ 6:28 pm
I would like to know more information about what was covered this presentations. For example, what are some of the warning signs of a potential abuse situation?
Comment by rk — April 7, 2008 @ 7:34 pm
“Just wanted to make sure you aren’t arguing that a girl is “asking for it” if she looks sexy.”
No, I’m not arguing that at all. I’m arguing that some 12-13 year old Beehives may not realize that *some* boys/men will use any reason to abuse them, including the way they are dressed and/or acting. I’m arguing that, because of her maturity level, a Beehive might see it as harmless flirting while an older teenage boy will see an opportunity to take advantage of a naive girl.
Comment by Jennifer in GA — April 7, 2008 @ 7:36 pm
DH is bishop in a Singles Ward. He walks a fine line between trying to get some of the RMs to date and trying to prevent/stop others of them from stalking. In these past 4 years he has had an LDS psychologist (male) and an LDS social worker (female) put on several programs and firesides, with RS and EQ together and separately about date coersion, stalking and rape. The county has presented their self defense class for Enrichment twice. Our ward draws from 3 Stakes (in the midwest) and our PhD and MSW have also given their programs in singles groups north and south of us. My husband has gotten at least 10 times as much training on this in this calling as he did in a family ward 13-18 years ago. I do not know if this is a reflection of the times or that he is in a singles ward. We are certainly in a more feminist area than Utah. I do know there is a hotline to professionals in SL, both psychologists and lawyers to advise Bishops how to procede in the event of assaults. I think the Church’s institutional awareness of date rape rose slowly and that in more traditional areas priesthood leaders do things the way they have always been done rather than reading the new, more enlightened Handbooks.
Also, Susan referenced Minnesota-where my husband is from. She is right. In his family the Norwegian women are large and in charge and everyone knows that’s how it should be. I certainly learned to think for my self and stand on my own there after having been raised to just meekly obey.
Comment by karen — April 7, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
Nope, I wasn’t implying a victim was asking for anything. However, there are many girls who really do not understand that testosterone is a very strong thing and arousing it is nothing to be done lightly. I am not excusing males for any actions or blaming girls for men’s actions. But there’s a good deal of ignorance out there.
Now, I have seen a couple of workshops on non-violence for boys, but nothing on how not to become abusive. Ever.
Non-violent solutions to problems for ALL kids are stressed frequently. Zero tolerance for any type of harrassment is enforced and taught daily (in small and large ways). Anti-bullying is taught and enforced. All this is good. All this is better than what was available when I was a kid.
However, I have never seen a workshop about date-rape prevention for boys at the school where I teach. But it is only one school, and it’s in a very conservative area.
There’s room for improvement here. Once skin cancer awareness week is over, I’ll chat with the counselors and school nurse about the possibility of anti-abuse workshops for guys and girls.
And don’t get too bent out of shape, Quimby. I’m a teacher, for heaven’s sake. I’ve dealt with girls who’ve been raped, hit, verbally abused, etc. I know that even a girl who does ask for it (it here meaning sex) — as in, she’s a prostitute, still doesn’t deserve rape or abuse. And, yes, we’ve had a few prostitutes at the school too (usually forced to be so by their drug addict moms). I know the difference; you just can’t hear my tone of voice on a blog comment.
Now, lest anyone get all holier-than-thou about the type of school, let me assure you that this kind of thing is common in more schools than you think. And, yes, we have many, many healthy kids who have not been abused and are not abusive or bullies. But they need to be aware of all this, too, for even if they are never abused/abusers, they will no doubt meet some who are. And if they non-abused are educated, they may be able to provide help and support — or at least not be like the YW leaders who think every teen is innocent.
That’s why I think the original post had such a great idea. But, then again, I’m a teacher — of course I support the idea of people being educated.
Comment by apaperbackwriter — April 7, 2008 @ 8:03 pm
#50, you said things well. I agree with you.
Comment by apaperbackwriter — April 7, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
I don’t think I was getting all bent out of shape. I was just asking for clarification - because it’s all well and good you knowing what you mean, but someone else might read it as, “Well, even other women say they’re asking for it” and use it as justification - and I’m sure that’s the last thing anyone here would want to have happen.
Comment by Quimby — April 7, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
I agree with those who have said that the problem is that the leaders aren’t comfortable talking about sex at all, especially not with the young women. This is a complex issue that can’t reasonably be discussed while keeping sexuality at arm’s length — just teaching self-defense moves (as you might for stranger rape) isn’t sufficient.
One point I haven’t seen in the comments so far is that it’s not just the obvious black-hat villain that you have to look out for — it may well be someone she has romantic feelings for, someone she has a relationship with, even someone she wants to make out with (but not have all of sex). And it’s very hard to talk about that in an LDS context without it coming off as blaming the girl.
I think this novella captures some of the nuance in one possible scenario.
Comment by C. L. Hanson — April 7, 2008 @ 11:31 pm
Regarding when the time is right (age wise) to warn and arm girls with regards to date rape, etc. I heard a rather surprising statistic last night. The average age at which children are exposed to Internet porn is eleven (11). That is an average. So very young children are learning about sensuality in some very unhealthy ways at quite young ages.
It seems we asking the wrong question when we wonder if a 12 year old is ready to be exposed to good information that will help protect her.
Comment by Claudia — April 8, 2008 @ 7:27 am
Just because a girl does not know how to say, ‘no’ does *not* make it date rape.
A week later, having feelings of guilt and discussing her actions with a YW leader still does *not* make it date rape.
If she is actively involved in the sexual acts, gives no indication of wanting to quit, gives instruction on how to touch her, but later feels betrayed and violated - that is NOT date rape.
From personal and bitter experience I now look at all cases of date rape with suspicion.
Comment by R.U. Sure — April 8, 2008 @ 8:13 am
#17 says silence is not consent, #57 says neither is silence necessarily refusal. This whole thread seems to indicate that the silence itself — the inability to say anything openly about the subject at all — may be part of the problem, especially for inexperienced young people.
Might there be a gray area between rape and consensual sex? I know it’s totally taboo in feminist circles to even suggest such a thing so I’m a little hesitant to ask this question…
Comment by C. L. Hanson — April 8, 2008 @ 10:57 am
R.U.Sure-even more reason to have the fireside. To help young girls (and older ones too) learn to say no and learn the difference between regret and abuse (because there is a difference).
I think it is important to note that sexuality is so complex and confusing to both boys and girls. We see plenty of movies where the woman says “no”, the man forcefully kisses her, she still says “no”, and it goes on from there with her finally falling passionately into bed with the man. We give very conflicting lessons. How do they know which is the correct way if someone doesn’t tell them? For example how does a young man know if the girl is being coy like the movies or really means no? We need to make sure that they understand no means no-life is not like the movies.
The flipside is that we need to make sure young women understand a young man’s horomones and sex drive. That if he is trying to do something she does not want done, she needs to say NO! And it is ok to say no. It is ok if he doesn’t like her later, etc. That they also need to not be “cute” like in the movies and say no to be hard to get etc, because it sends mixed signals when she does mean no.
I know several friends that have been date raped, and it was horrible. I in no way excuse the actions of the men involved. But I also cannot help but wonder when you have a 14 or 15 year old boy involved how much of it is always about abuse, and how much of it is confusion because we send out so many different messages as a society.
I think that we need to have these conversations over and over again because there are so many mixed messages out there-both in the church and society at large. We need to help both sexes understand the complexity of things and how to avoid some of the unfortunate misunderstandings that have happened.
Comment by Tanya Sue — April 8, 2008 @ 11:14 am
“make sure young women understand a young man’s horomones and sex drive”
By which you could infer that young women have no hormones or sex drive?
Comment by Researcher — April 8, 2008 @ 11:43 am
“make sure young women understand a young man’s horomones and sex drive”
By which you could infer that young women have no hormones or sex drive?
Could we please stop putting words in each other’s mouths? By fully reading Tanya Sue’s post it’s easily understood that she is *not* saying this at all.
Comment by Jennifer in GA — April 8, 2008 @ 11:58 am
Jennifer in GA-thanks for having my back!
Comment by Tanya Sue — April 8, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
Is it harsh for me to say because they are idiots?
That is the kindest way to look at it I could think of.
/sigh.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — April 8, 2008 @ 9:54 pm
The thought that comes to my mind is that date rape does not equal sex. Equating the two is what causes girls to feel ashamed if they are raped. Young women need to be told clearly and distinctly that rape is a violent crime against them. Lessons on chastity are important, and they need to differentiate between the choice a young woman can make to have sex and rape. Rape takes away that choice. In fact, in a discussion of date rape, how much of it even needs to be on “sex”? The discussion needs to be on both prevention and what to do if rape happens.
I think we need to teach our children and youth about this type of safety starting when they are very young. For example, with my children now, we talk a lot about stranger danger, about not letting anyone touch your body, about telling mommy and daddy if anyone hurts them or makes them feel “sad”. I feel that’s an appropriate amount of information for young children who are almost always in my care or in the care of adults that I choose carefully. My oldest is turning 8 this year, so we’ll do the safety training for cub scouts. It is incredible. The idea is that you as a family sit down and talk about safety concerns with children (particularly related to molestation). It is almost uncomfortably graphic for such young kids. But, it is important! It gets you talking as a family. Is there something like this for Activity Day girls? If not, we need to work on that! 8 is a great age to introduce the topic if you haven’t already. Then, as the youth get older, you add more information as appropriate.
I think the discussion of date rape in particular is appropriate at the same age that talking about dating is appropriate. Since Beehives have lessons on dating, I think date rape is appropriate. However, it would be a different lesson than the one I would give Laurels. Considering that we should pray and ask for inspiration for any lesson, this would be one in particular that I would hit my knees especially hard for.
Comment by Stephanie — April 8, 2008 @ 9:56 pm
I mean *talking about* date rape is appropriate
Comment by Stephanie — April 8, 2008 @ 9:57 pm
In fact, the article Tat references (#22) shows that our church leadership sees that this is an issue and cares. This article is definitely “on the table” in terms of resources to use to teach the YW. It would be a good starting point for a discussion.
Comment by Stephanie — April 8, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
To add to what Stephanie said regarding shame . . . we need to distinguish between virtue and virginity. Rape only takes away the latter. Unfortunately there’s that still-circulating quotation from President Kimball about how a girl should rather die than lose her virtue. I assume he either meant “rather die than have casual sex” (which I don’t agree with either, but whatever) or “die than lose her virginity.” It’s still pretty bad because a rape surivivor is exactly that, a survivor. No reason to be dead unless the rapist gives you no choice at all in the matter. But I think that quoation hasn’t helped the nasty conflation of virtue/virginity.
Comment by Janet — April 8, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
To add to what Janet said, we need to distinguish between virtue and virginity for other reasons, too. If a girl chooses to have sex and then feels bad about it, she may not regain her virginity, but she most certainly can regain her virtue! How awful for any young woman to think she is better off dead if she had sex. President Kimball is a good man, and I am sure he meant the quote in the context of encouraging young women to not have sex, but I imagine it would be so damaging to read that quote to a girl in YW who already had sex. We have to be so, so careful in the messages we send.
Comment by Stephanie — April 8, 2008 @ 10:54 pm
The “Date Rape Tightrope” is such a hard one to tread. Yes, it happens, and it is vile and abhorrent. I have nothing but compassion and heartbreak for victims.
But unfortunately, we also live in a society where it has become commonplace and almost easy to blame anyone else when you don’t want to take responsibility for your actions. My mom has worked as an ER nurse in Utah County for nearly 20 years, and has seen countless numbers of teenage girls brought in for a “rape exam.” According to her, nearly half of those girls later admit to the doctor or social worker that the sex was consensual, but that she thought if she blamed the boy, she wouldn’t get in any “trouble.”
I really really hate the bad taste that these girls leave for those who are true victims. It shouldn’t have to be a he said/she said deal, but those who look for an easy out make it that much more difficult for those who are abused.
Any ideas on how to deal with this happening? Do we legally persecute girls who falsify the event? Will earlier and more specific “sex talks” diminish the occurrence? I have no idea.
That being said, I agree whole-heartedly with the idea of teaching abuse prevention to children (boys and girls) at the appropriate gravity to their maturity.
Comment by Teresa — April 8, 2008 @ 10:58 pm
I don’t think that’s such a great idea. What if a rape comes to trial, and the man really did rape the woman, but is found not guilty - what would stop the man from filing criminal and/or civil charges against the rape victim?
If it’s a matter of “not getting in trouble”, one solution (though not a very popular one, particularly in LDS circles or, dare I say it, with any parents of teenage girls) could be to stop viewing premarital sex as a big punishable no-no. I’m not saying it’s a good solution - don’t ask me to defend it.
Comment by Quimby — April 8, 2008 @ 11:03 pm
Yikes, but as a mother of sons, it would make me so angry if someone falsely accused one of them of rape. It could ruin his life! Look at the Duke Lacrosse team. Sure, the charges were dropped, but they were drug through the mud.
Hmm. I think one solution to this goes back to education. Teach the boys both about not being a perpetrator (to prevent date rape from happening) but also about protecting themselves from being falsely accused. It is actually another good reason to avoid having premarital sex.
Scout/YM leaders get a lot of training in avoiding one-on-one situations. YW leaders are always supposed to be 2 deep as well - both to protect the youth from anything happening to them and to protect the leaders from false accusations. The same reason could apply to encouraging teens to double date. You protect yourself from anything happening to you, and you protect yourself from being accused of anything.
Comment by Stephanie — April 8, 2008 @ 11:13 pm
Quimby — Let it never be said that you are anything less than logical and opportunistic! =)
Good points, Stephanie. I also wonder how much of this is pressure from the LDS culture and decidedly high standards of morality, and how much stems from the massive “It’s not my fault — my mommy didn’t breast-feed me/my daddy never hugged me, etc…” mentality. If the latter, can we change it? Can we teach our children (and often ourselves) to take responsibility in a society that has endless fingers to point in any direction than towards themselves?
Comment by Teresa — April 8, 2008 @ 11:21 pm
I hope so, Teresa. In fact, it seemed to me that a common theme going through conference (particularly Saturday) was personal choice and accountability.
Comment by Stephanie — April 8, 2008 @ 11:24 pm
Re: #67 Apparently the quote is from The Miracle of Forgiveness. Here are some others, apparently from the same book, p. 197:
and p. 65:
I admit I copy-pasted these from “anti” sites (not from a physical copy of the book), but considering that I heard these quotes preached from the pulpit as a youth, and people I know have been given this book as part of the repentance process within the past few years, I don’t think it should be seen as “anti” to discuss the implications.
The problem is that on the one hand we have the modern feminist ideas that sex without express verbal consent is rape and one should never blame the victim, and on the other hand we have the LDS teaching that if a girl chooses to be alone with a boy and consents to “heavy petting”, she has already committed a grave sin, whether it leads to intercourse or not. The problem is that there are a whole lot of cases that fall in the overlap, so it’s not clear whether the girl should or should not be (partially?) considered responsible. It’s difficult to even analyze the question because that would require detailed discussion of sexuality.
It’s easier to try to find a simple criterion to divide the issue into two distinct clear-cut cases: “Was express, specific verbal consent given? No? Then the guys is a criminal who has committed a violent act.” I’ve gotten in trouble with other secular feminists myself for suggesting that it’s not that simple. In the case of young people who hardly know what they’re doing and can’t bring themselves to talk about it, consent/refusal may not always be so cut and dry.
This ambiguity is what I was trying to capture in the story I linked to in comment #55. These sorts of cases happen in real life. It was my intention to leave the interpretation of the story open-ended to encourage people to think about (and talk about) their own take on it.
Comment by C. L. Hanson — April 9, 2008 @ 1:12 am
I was a victim of date rape. I was at party where I shouldn’t have been and I had been drinking. I said no multiple times but it happened anyway. It was my first sexual encounter.
I never reported it because I was in the heart of Mormon country and I knew the public opinion would be that I had asked for it because I was in the wrong place doing the wrong thing. Unlike the girls who report a date rape because of feeling guilt for consensual sex, I went the opposite way. I was emotionally distraught over having my ability to choose taken away that I was determined to take full responsibility for it. I became very promiscuous because I needed to convince myself that it was what I wanted to do and who I wanted to be. I know that it wasn’t the best way to deal with the situation but I’m not going to apologize for dealing with it the best I could.
I can’t stress enough the importance of talking about these things to young women, even Behives. They need to know not only how to prevent rape from happening but that, if it does happen to them, losing their virginity is not worse than death. Saying “yes” to a drink or “yes” to making out does not mean “yes” to sex.
Not only do we need to have frank discussions about rape but also about consensual sex. God made our bodies to crave and enjoy sex and it’s inevitable that some of us are going to give into temptations. Of course, we hope that our kids don’t but they need to know that if they do participate in sex that God still loves them and that they are still good people. I remember feeling like it wasn’t worth the effort to try because I was already so tainted that God would turn his back on me. Thankfully, I was wrong.
Also, I just found this blog and I LOVE IT. There are Mormon women out there like me!
Comment by S — April 9, 2008 @ 10:25 am
S, I suspect that this has happened to someone close to me. I would like to help her find the healing and understanding that you have found, but I don’t know how to bring it up. Do you have any suggestions?
Comment by Stephanie — April 9, 2008 @ 11:39 am
So thanks to this post I have just talked to our YW pres about having a self-defense/rape awareness activity w/ our YW (I’m Laurel advisor). She thought it was a great idea, although was hesitant to include Beehives (in her defense she has a daughter who is a very young Beehive). Once I pointed out at least one Beehive who we think could benefit from this right now, she was on board with inlcuding all YW. I think we are going to approach it by having the self-defense instruction all together & then dividing up into classes for the awareness & prevention part. I’m really excited about this b/c while I am very blunt & open about sex, chastity, etc. with the YW, I never thought about doing anything like this. Thanks for the post! And while I’m thanking people (sorry for the threadjack here), thanks Quimby for the New Beginnings link - I’ve found great ideas for my lessons!
Comment by brittany — April 9, 2008 @ 7:21 pm
Stephanie-
I’m not sure how to bring that up. Everyone is so different that what may have worked for me might not work for your loved one. For me, I didn’t want to talk about it to anyone. My family still doesn’t know and it’s not something that I talk about to my husband. What helped me come to terms with not only that, but the choices that I made afterward was redefining my relationship with God. My whole life I had been taught about the atonement and that I was a child of God but I only believed it superficially.
It was a long, hard road of repentance but at the end I really had a true relationship with God and a better understanding of the atonement. (I don’t think I’ll ever have a full understanding in this life.) I always believed in the atonement but that it was for everyone else. I had to realize that it was for me, personally, and that it not only covered my sins but all sorrow and all heartache.
Knowing that God loved me and cared for me despite everything that had happened is what got me through it. It’s not just hearing it but really knowing it. I don’t have any good advice about how to do it but, hopefully, you’ll be able to find a way to help her find that for herself.
Comment by S — April 10, 2008 @ 10:03 am
Thanks S.
Comment by Stephanie — April 10, 2008 @ 10:17 am
S — your story is heartbreaking and amazing. Did you make some wrong choices? Sure. We all do. But like you said, saying yes to a drink is vastly different than saying yes to sex. It is for women and girls like you, that I harbor such anger at those who “cry wolf” to avoid blame and consequence. I thank you for being brave enough to put this out there. It helps define that afore-mentioned line that is often so difficult to establish. I am so glad that you seem to have found the comfort and peace that only the Atonement can bring.
And I think your comment drives home even more the fact that we *must* talk to our daughters and sisters and friends more about this.
Comment by Teresa — April 10, 2008 @ 11:01 am
I think there is an overall lack of sexuality education in the church. The question came up as to whether or not it is the churches responsibilty or if it should be taught in the home…both. I think the church needs to realize that most parents are falling short in the sex ed dept at home and start offering some kind of parenting courses. They shouldn’t be responsible for teaching our children everything…but they need to help the people who only teach what they’re told from the pulpit to finally talk to their kids about real issues. Homosexuality, rape, incest…all tough conversations must be addressed eventually (and at age appropriate times) by parents with children in a loving way. As a sex educator myself I really don’t see how hard it is to grasp this concept–however, I do understand that many people find talking about sex extremely uncomfortable. Get over it.
Comment by K — April 16, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
To insinuate that the church would ignore or condone date rape because of dating too early is a ridiculous notion. The reason for this presidency’s refusal to address the topic is beyond me, and I would say has more to do with their own upbringing and age than anything else. As first couselor in the YW presidency, I can tell you I would have been THRILLED for these young women to do a fireside. I am a firm believer that young women and men needed to be educated in matters of physical imtimacy, and that young women need to know how to protect themselves. It is unfortunate that these leaders did not take advantage of an opportunity to protect and teach these girls. However, we can not expect the church to teach all these things. The primary responsibility lies with the parents, and unfortunately too many parents in and outside the chruch are too embarrassed, too behind the times, or too irresponsible to do it themselves. If the presidency was “older” that might explain it. For certain generations talking about sex and rape was taboo - and I’m talking about society in general. Today we women can be much more vocal about educating those we teach, and we should use the opportunities when presented to do so with spirit.
Comment by sarah — January 7, 2009 @ 5:36 pm