The Shape of a Mother Guest post by Brittany
Nine years ago, when my DH finished law school, we made the move from Cleveland, Ohio to Orange County, California. Once we got settled, I quickly came to the conclusion that Fantasyland didn’t just exist in Disneyland. Before Cleveland I had only lived in Southern Idaho & Provo and in none of those places did I see so many women trying, as I saw it, to fulfill a man’s fantasy by having inordinately large breasts. I laughed at their silicone and scorned their vanity.
Fast forward 7 years and 3 kids later. While conversing with my mother and my sister, I find out Mom, herself, has had a boob job - when I was 15! This is my mother who has the equivalent of a PhD (an EdS) in psychology, doesn’t watch TV or read “beauty” magazines, and has a great figure. What could have possessed her to have cosmetic surgery?
Finally Mom said to defend herself, “Don’t you remember how saggy my boobs were?” And suddenly an old photograph of my mother in a swimming suit flashed in my memory. The padded cups of the suit were sticking straight out, but my mother’s poor bosoms were hanging somewhere near the vicinity of her waist. Then I looked down at my rather full breasts (I was nursing at the time) and knew that in a few months when daughter #3 was weaned they would shrink and be yet another size smaller and definitely closer to my belly button. And I mourned for their loss, or my loss, however you want to look at it.
I love my 3 daughters, but I count the collective 27 months I carried them as the worst years of my life. With each of my miserable pregnancies I put on at least half my body weight, despite the copious amount of vomiting these pregnancies induced. Fortunately I was able to lose all of the weight relatively quickly, but no one can lose and gain that much weight in quick succession without her body showing the signs of it. I look pretty darn good (I’m saying that not to brag but because I’m trying to love my body with all of it’s imperfections) while I’m standing up, wearing a padded bra and clothes. When I’m upright, that loose stretched out skin around my abdomen doesn’t hang over my pants waist too much and no one can see folds of wrinkled, stretch-marked skin. The padding in my bra adds a little volume to my breasts, but also hides the fact that my nipples are like two confused soldiers; always at attention, but neither in their right spots nor facing the same direction. People compliment me a lot on my figure, and yet when I see myself naked I just think “Ew!”
Now I recognize that in order to call myself a feminist I should not worry so much about what my body looks like. But I defy any woman to come to my part of the world and not start critiquing her own body. It’s not just that I see women on a daily basis who look like they were assembled in a Mattel factory, but also that I spend 4 - 6 months out of the year wearing a swimming suit almost every day. When I see women doing their grocery shopping in their bikinis (I’m not exaggerating here), it’s hard not to start comparing my body with theirs. Couple that with the fact that plastic surgery is pretty much the norm here, and it’s almost impossible not to feel a little self-loathing. Thus, two years after my conversation with Mom and nine years after swearing I would never do it, I am seriously considering a little cosmetic surgery myself to restore my girls to their former glory. And why not throw in a little tummy tuck and ironing just to top the whole thing off?
But then out of the darkness comes a voice of reason in the form of my no-bra-wearing-even w/o-a-boob-job, baby-birth coaching & hypnobabies instructing, friend who forwards me to theshapeofamother.com. WARNING: there is nudity on this site, but it is the pregnant lady, flabby mother kind, rather than the p*rno kind. How could I be so naive as to think I was the only mom with flab or stretch marks (or “badges of honor” as my mil called them & which still pisses me off to think of - I don’t know why)? I’ll tell you how, because my Mormon friends generally wear 1 piece suits or tankinis (the one who wears a bikini doesn’t have any “badges” & the rest of us are a little bitter about it) and most of the other women wearing bikinis have had boob jobs & tummy tucks and only 1 or 2 kids! Seeing the “shapes” of other mothers helped me feel a lot better about my own body. I’m even thinking about getting a bikini myself & not worrying who sees the horror that lies beneath my layers of clothing & funny underwear. (Except of course for my 3 girls b/c there’s no way I want them thinking it’s okay to wear a bikini while their bodies are still in their prime & there are boys around!)
The thought even occurred to me that Christ still carries the marks of his suffering, so shouldn’t I be willing to do the same?
That being said, I think if mothers want to get boob jobs and tummy tucks, I say you go girl. We have sacrificed a lot to be mothers (i.e. careers, time, money, spontaneous sex, sanity, etc. etc.) so if you want to try to get the body back you once had, you go girl! As for me, I think I’ll just try a little harder to love what I flab, i mean have.
I say leave Southern California! DH and I moved to DC last August, and I have never felt prettier! Not that people in DC aren’t beautiful, but they are beautiful in a regular, natural way.
The SoCal beautiful/fake bubble can be pretty hard to deal with.
Comment by Racheldmc — April 23, 2008 @ 12:42 pm
yeah babies ruined my body too but yes i’m proud to wear to wear the scars but only when i and nobody else can see them …:)
recently my 18yod has been training as a bra fitter in a major store here as part of her pt job she insisted i get properly fitted….the joy, the support, the difference!! far better than a boob job anyday and less painful!
Debrauk
Comment by debrauk — April 23, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
Just last week, my sister and I were chatting about this same thing. I, like Guest, have been oppossed to any type of cosmetic surgery. You’ve desribed my feelings perfectly. I too, am going through the same emotions you are about my body. I’ve had the life sucked out of my chest by four beautiful children. They are simply empty pockets that sag.
So, I’ve seriously considered “reconstructive” surgery - not cosmetic surgery. I’ve labeled it reconstructive, because there has been so much damage done to them. It’s my belief that we are pregnant for such a short amount of time to live for such a long amount of time, with the gifts left by child bearing.
I sopke with my dear mother about her “tummy” and if she had to do if over again, she would have had a tummy tuck. she’s spent years never fitting into pants correctly. (And my mother is like Guests, intelligent, never obssesses about worldly, hollywood images, etc.)
But, in the same thought, beautification surgery is a slippery slope. I have friends who started out on the boobs, then moved to the stomach, then the face, etc. becoming obssessed with their figure, to the point they are never satisfied with the way they look.
So, I still don’t know what to do. I’m too chicken to have surgery and worry about the pain.
Comment by Abby — April 23, 2008 @ 1:16 pm
I see nothing wrong with doing what will make you happy. If it’s not wearing a bra and flapping them around for the world to see - go for it. If it’s a little tucking and surgical help - go for it. Don’t allow others to tell you what’s best for you, they’re not the one’s looking back in the mirror every morning.
Good luck!
Comment by Meg — April 23, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
terrific post Brittany - i’m diggin it.
I can’t imagine what it must be like to live in SoCal surrounded by the many oppressive messages of what a woman’s body should be. though it might be a leap, it reminds me of foot binding and the pain/suffering of young girls and women who endured such disfigurment to satisfy a man.
we lived in Hawaii during my first pregnancy (wasn’t a member of the church then) and I took myself to the beach daily is a neon yellow bikini - at 9 months. when we read about the ‘great earth mother’ - hon, i was it. of course, after squeezin him out…. i was more like the ‘great deflated ballon never to go back into shape mother.’ such a sight.
for today, body shape isn’t as much a priority as it has been in the past, but I wish I was more satisified with how I look.
as a side note and not a threadjack …. the word breast seems more feminist than other vocabulary choices.
make it a great day sisters and brothers
Comment by Mary Magdalene — April 23, 2008 @ 1:24 pm
Don’t you think there’s something wrong with the world when in one part of it people are starving and struggling to survive, suffering genocide and disease and in the other part people are spending millions of dollars to suck fat out of their bodies and enlarge sexual organs so that they look prettier?
This world is a very messed up place.
Every once in a while we should check ourselves and see if we’re building a condo in the great and spacious building in lieu of a mansion in heaven.
Comment by salt h2o — April 23, 2008 @ 1:25 pm
We live in Burbank, and everyone here looks nice and normal. I am heavy and don’t feel pressured to look any way other than how I want to look. I can see how the OC would be really different, though, if it’s anything like what I see on TV and what little I’ve seen IRL. And hoo-boy, was I LMBO at the things we saw at Venice Beach!
That being said, I’d be lying if I said I’ll never have SmartLipo under my chin and a tummy tuck if we ever have the money for it. I’ll do it in a heartbeat, and I’ll never feel a twinge of guilt about it. I’ve had a double chin all my life, through twiggy as a kid and teenager to a now obese state of womanhood. My stomach will never be the same no matter the exercise, but I plan to keep working my way to a healthy weight, and save my pennies for a tuck when I’m done having babies.
I’ll never put anything fake into my breasts. I’m OK with the sag, they still look great to me, even having dropped a little. I’ll never change my face, either.
My stretch marks have never bothered me, for some reason. They have faded nicely and honestly it makes me smile when DH traces them with his fingers. I feel beautiful, even at 206 pounds.
I am proud of my body and all it has survived. I don’t think wanting to remove a blob of wrinkly skin from my stomach makes me less proud, only more practical. More than once I have nipped that paper thin skin in the zipper of my jeans.
The chin, however, is all vanity. I’m tired of hiding in photographs, and looking for creative angles to hide my stupid fat neck. I take photos for a living, and it pains me that I am not in more of them because of my own insecurity about an issue that probably is only truly appalling to me, myself, and I.
Comment by Jill — April 23, 2008 @ 1:33 pm
So, salt h20 how would you fix that problem then? I agree with you, but don’t… *shrug*
I am all for doing what you feel is right. My sis got a boob job because she was a negative aaa, she looks so much better. I have often looked in the mirror and thought screw the badges of honor, I want to look pretty again. And then moments I have loved every badge, wrinkle, fat and sag! For me it comes in waves…
Nice post!
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
Brittany,
I only have two little ones but I have been nursing non-stop for four years so my poor breasts are sadly sagging even though I am still breastfeeding. And my tummy, well I could never wear a bikini. Thanks for the link to the shape of a mother, what a bunch of beautiful women.
When I think of all of the things that our bodies have accomplished every mother’s body is beautiful to me! I would never begrudge a tummy tuck or breast lift but natural is wonderful too.
Comment by Carrina — April 23, 2008 @ 1:40 pm
salt h2o,
Just to be clear, breasts are not “sexual organs”. That idea is half the problem.
Comment by sol — April 23, 2008 @ 1:43 pm
I used to be against the whole boob-job thing, wishing that I could love my body just as it is. However, I’ve decided that whatever makes a person happy is what they should go for.
I want to have one more kid and then if I don’t lose my belly fat, I’ll be on the operating table for a tuck and a boob job. As a negative aaa (as a previous poster put it) all my life, I have always been self conscious. That is no badge of honor to me and if it makes me feel better in my clothes and happier about my body, then I want to do it. I don’t want to look back in 20 years wishing I hadn’t spent the last 20 years hating my body. I want to wear a bikini again and feel good about myself. I guess I feel it is less of what others think of me as of what I think of myself. Having always hated my body I figure it might be just what I need.
I respect every woman’s choice. I think it is just too personal and individual to for me the reasons.
Comment by Julia — April 23, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
I find that a good bra does wonders. My girls, formerly both big and perky, are now small and deflated. I was still wearing my old bras, and when I finally got measured and bought a bra in the correct size (two band sizes and one cup size smaller than in my glory days, lol), I found that I didn’t look half bad.
My main issue with plastic surgery (for me, I don’t care what anyone else does for herself) is the tacit message I may be giving my daughters that since I’m unhappy enough with how I look to change it, they may someday believe that I don’t think they’re good enough the way they are. They’re still little, but I’d worry that when they got older they’d feel pressure to live up to some unreal standard. But you all know I have mother-daughter issues.
And speaking of mother-daughter issues and plastic surgery– did anyone see the Bachelor this week (yes, I love totally disgusting realty tv). Yowza– Shayne’s mom was pretty much the poster child for why people shouldn’t have cosmetic surgery. Now I’m probably going to go to hell for saying that on the internet.
Comment by Shelah — April 23, 2008 @ 2:31 pm
Just in case non-moms are reading this… Breastfeeding did not destroy my breasts, pregnancy did. I was 22 and a really cute 32 B. Ah, the memories… Anyway, the first three months of pregnancy swelled by breasts to a DD cup and were the only stretch marks I had from that pregnancy. My point is don’t think if you don’t breastfeed, you won’t be saggy. I love all the benefits of breastfeeding my six kids!
That being said, I have calculated how much money I have saved by not buying formula and less doctor visits for breastfeeding six kids. I figured I have earned enough for reconstructive surgery. (As soon as I get the nerve). I agree with Abby that it’s not purely vanity if you want to get back to your normal body. The problem is a lot of the “noticeable” breast jobs include DD silicon. This does not look natural or normal for most thin women.
Comment by sofia — April 23, 2008 @ 2:31 pm
Wow, my three kids had the opposite effect on my body. I went UP a cup size after each - ending at a very full DD. Misery, thy name is “well endowed.” Thank heaven for my crippling digestive condition that forced me on a medical diet and helped to shrink the girls back to respectable, non-porn-star size.
The moral: You always want what you don’t have. Find a way to love your body, if not for its aesthetics while naked - about 2% of the population actually looks good naked, anyway - then for the amazing things it can do: think, breath, run, sleep (when the babies are grown, at least!), etc.
Comment by Eris — April 23, 2008 @ 2:34 pm
Brittany, I feel exactly the same way! Caught between really wanting to love my body for what it is: a creation of God, and wanting to have some resemblance to my pre-baby body again! Surgury is such a big step in my mind that I don’t know if I’d ever go through with it, even if I decide that is what I want, but I certainly don’t judge those who do! Great post!!!
Comment by POM — April 23, 2008 @ 2:35 pm
i have such mixed feelings about plastic surgery. i’m sort of with salt h2o, though what she said was kind of harsh: don’t we have more important things to worry about, and certainly better ways to spend our money? and i also think that so much of what we struggle with is ultimately going to end up being about acceptance: if you get your breasts augmented, aren’t you just treating the symptom, not the cause?
i’m enormously unhappy with my body and have been for all of my life; my post-baby body isn’t much different than it’s always been so i can’t say it’s about that. but what seems clear is that almost all of us are struggling with some deep psychological dysfunction regarding the state of our NORMAL bodies.
those of you complaining about your negative AAA cups - please, take some of my cups. in fact, take all of it - there’s enough to go around. i’d love to have a flat chest. i’ve always thought that boyish girl bodies were beautiful in secret, i love androgyny, and even though i feel that it goes against my feminist nature, i’ve been envious that that will never be me, no matter what i do to my body.
and more and more i think about the things we women do to our bodies, ranging from plucking our eyebrows to brazilian waxing to surgery, and i wonder, how many of us would do these things if we didn’t live in this culture or if we weren’t so indoctrinated by the patriarchy? does it arise naturally, independently of messages from men, or from other women responding to men, that we shave our legs or wear lipstick? what message do we receive that we respond to by putting ourselves through such emotional and physical pain to fit within a mold that does not exist?
letting go of some assumptions about my body - that menstruation is dirty and would gross out any man, that shaving is necessary, that my genitals are warped in some way - has been enormously liberating and i’ve learned so much about the ways we women are constricted by and necessarily responsive to the patriarchy. so intuitively, i hate plastic surgery. but boy, if i ever have the money, it will be hard not to consider getting a breast reduction. for me it would be primarily because it’s HARD to have large breasts - it’s painful, shirts never fit right, it’s damn near impossible to find a bra that works. the woman mentioned above who got a tummy tuck because she was sick of not being able to fit into pants - that’s pretty different from getting a tummy tuck because you’ve internalized some message from society that your body is sub-par.
i know, rationally, that when i fret about my body, i’m responding to that deep indoctrination. but that doesn’t stop the worrying. how do we break out of that cycle?
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
I have a few thoughts on breast augmentation and the like. First, I think everyone should remember that it is surgery, and there are risks. It’s not like getting a haircut, it’s more like getting a mastectomy. I’m not saying that the risks are never worth it, but rather one should carefully weigh and consider. People have died getting boob jobs.
Second, I’m slightly uncomfortable with the “anything goes” attitude towards choices that are heavily influenced by damaging cultural messages. I certainly believe that there are plenty of situations, and circumstances where cosmetic surgery is the best option for improving self-esteem, quality of life, and whatever. Having said that, I think a more wide-reaching goal of shifting cultural attitudes should still be in the forefront of feminist thought. I believe we can condemn the forces that make cosmetic surgery an appealing option for improving body acceptance among women, while still recognizing and respecting that individual women have real needs that are best met right now by cosmetic surgery.
Comment by Starfoxy — April 23, 2008 @ 2:47 pm
Breastfeeding did not destroy my breasts, pregnancy did.
that is a very common misconception, that breastfeeding makes breasts sag. actually, the primary factor is genetics. beyond that, if you have babies your breasts will sag whether you nurse or not. the hormones of pregnancy compounded by the swelling both in pregnancy and when the milk first comes in (which will happen regardless of whether you plan to nurse) creates the stretching of skin that results in sagging. the final primary factor? living on earth. gravity has the worst effect on the buoyant parts of our bodies. move to the moon if you want to keep your perfect breasts.
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 2:47 pm
beautifully said, starfoxy.
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
Thanks for all your comments!
#1 I think DC is great and if most of our family didn’t live on this side of the country, DC would be at the top of our list of places to live. But, despite the proliferation of silicone, I love OC and we really love our ward here.
#3 I love that you call it reconstructive surgery! Ain’t that the truth!
#6 I appreciate your comment about building a condo in the great & spacious building - do you think cosmetic surgery puts people in this category? Just curious.
#7 I think most women would be happier if they had your outlook. Way to love your body. And the OC isn’t really like what you see on TV
Comment by brittany — April 23, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
Chandelle, now I am going to have to disagree with you
It is totally not the guys fault. Look at us here talking about our bodies and how we could change this our that. So far I haven’t seen a man saying, ” ya, you know you are right. You are fat, your thighs are large, your boobs are sagging, and those wrinkles, seriously?”
I would imagine that most husbands respond the way mine does. I love your body no matter what you look like. I have ranged in weight he has seen me at 145 and 200 and still he loves me. I think it is women that do this to women.
IMO
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
OK, OK, #13 and #18 two pregnancies, aging and gravity have made my breasts sag. Sorry, I too actually realize that breastfeeding isn’t really what makes my breasts sag. Breastfeeding is just what I associate with my breasts (poor sagging things that they are) on a daily basis. I would never want to discourage anyone from what has been one of the most amazing experiences of my life.
Comment by Carrina — April 23, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
i agree with you completely, sunshine. i think most of us ARE responding to judgment from women, not men. i’ve never known a man to say a word against my body or the bodies of most of the women in their lives. this doesn’t mean, however, that the women who are promoting these ideals are not serving the patriarchy as a structure or that they have not internalized the ideology of the patriarchy themselves.
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
Even before I had children, I did not love the look or shape of my body. Since I was 13, I’ve always had a poochy belly, huge saggy breasts, oddly square hips, and slightly lumpy thighs. I’ve always felt self conscious about these things, though not enough to do particularly much about it. I’ve been a runner on and off, and have kept my weight just at the top of “normal” on those ridiculous charts they used to have in the doctor’s office that tell you “if you are this tall, then you should weigh this much.”
After I had my three children, and my breasts grew from cantaloupe size to honeydew size, and then shrunk back again, and my poochy belly was a saggy, poochy belly with purple stripes, I was only a tiny bit more self conscious, but my husband kept reassuring me that what I had was still beautiful, just not the same. Like how a sunset is beautiful, and a mango is beautiful, but they are different beautiful things. At the same time, I always thought it would be nice to get breast reduction surgery when I was done nursing babies. I would finally feel normal. I would not distract every male in a 2 mile radius (OK, that’s my cute, jealous husband talking. I never really notice people staring, except in Latin countries). And the lower back pain would stop. And the neck pain that happens when I practice the piano or organ.
I never thought this surgery was a big deal, except for the miraculous change I imagined in my self image. Then I became a feminist. And by feminist, I mean a person who thinks females are good, smart, worthy, capable, and undeserving of societal stigmas that demean or prevent accomplishment. One such societal stigma is the idea that the female shape should ideally be long, gaunt, and bony, with plump, round breasts, and if a female does not fit this shape, she is somehow lazy, stupid, unproductive, or there’s simply something wrong with her. Or even that she is a victim, having the “ultimate indignity” of saggy breasts thrust upon her as a result of her choice to create a child.
I have long resented magazines, television, and other pervasive media that perpetuate the idea that unhealthy bodies are beautiful. The sheer volume of TV shows with anorexic-looking stars infiltrates our minds and implants this notion that we, too, should look like those tiny girls. Yet, even as I know intellectually that I’m being manipulated, I fantasize about being so skinny that my thighs don’t touch when my feet are together, or having a concave abdomen to mount a cute navel-ring, even to have a flat chest like so many boy-shaped actresses.
And to prey on my poor self image, plastic surgeons market “the mommy job,” a package deal which includes a tummy tuck, a breast lift with or without implants, and liposuction. In an article in the New York Times, Natasha Singer called it a “surgical cure for the ravages of motherhood.” The idea that bearing children causes deformity in the mother is so absurd, and the prospect of a “cure” for this aberration makes me want to move with my little girl to a different planet. Do I require a cure? Am I so defective that I need to be cut open and reconfigured?
Comment by sarah k. — April 23, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
I guess by my ranty long comment I meant to say that the only reason we even care about saggy breasts and floppy tummies is because we compare ourselves to an invented ideal, we despise our own bodies because they don’t look like those of people who have taken artificial and drastic measures to make them all identical, and when everyone is identical, there will be no more beauty, no more diversity to cherish.
Comment by sarah k. — April 23, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
Sarah– your post reminded me of something. I went on a cruise with my DH a couple of months ago. We were without our kids, so, for once in my life, I had lots of time to people-watch. One of the things I noticed, and I hope no one takes this the wrong way because I don’t intend it to be derogatory in any way, was that skinny bodies basically all look the same, but bodies with more meat on them show such great variety. Skinny is boring.
Comment by Shelah — April 23, 2008 @ 3:22 pm
In the scriptures we’re warned numerous times about pursuing the ‘vain things of this world’ a number of times- if big boobs aren’t considered a ‘vain thing’- then I don’t know what is.
We forget that there are people starving, with no future in sight while we waste our money in pursuit of the fountain of youth. How much more good could 5,000 do by being donated to the perpetual educatoin fund instead of being worn on a woman’s chest?
Agreed, a cleft lip, a physical oddity that inhibits one from paricipating in society is one thing- a boob job to feel sexy again is another. At some point we have to become ok with our aging- or when does the surgery and botox stop- at 50? at 60? at 70? Are we ever going to look in the mirror and be ok with being old?
Comment by salt h2o — April 23, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
Oh, something else I just remembered that I recently learned, breast augmentation is not a single event. The implants will need to be replaced or removed in 10 to 15 years. 1/3 of women will have a second operation in the first four years.
Comment by Starfoxy — April 23, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
salt h20, i would just be careful where you are treading. We are also told not to judge, but we all know how well that works.
Look, I don’t mind that you have an opinion and there is a lot you can do with 5000 (like food storage
), but to get on her and tell us that we are vain by wanting to change some of our body is a bit rude. If we want to get into being vain and what vain means…well…there are more subjects other than boobs that would make it so. For instance, you telling us we are vain…
I’m just saying…
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
My achilles heel is my nose, not my body. Its so crooked. And after a break in junior high, its even worse. And on top of that I think I have a deviated septum. I am very self concious about my nose and its the only thing I would ever consider “fixing.” But I have to agree with salt h2o, instead of changing our bodies to fit society, we need to work on changing society to fit our bodies, especially when it comes to something as natural and unique as aging and body types.
I’m working on becoming comfortable in my own skin. I’m trying to see my nose as something that sets me apart, makes me unique. In fact, years ago I still remember in high school, the boy who had a crush on me told his friend who he liked and his friend replied “Oh that cute girl with the crooked nose?”
Comment by Melissa — April 23, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
I can get behind the idea of re-constructing the look you had before a lot easier than the idea of creating a new shape or matching a mental ideal.
but in either case, I agree with #17 - this is major surgery, but people talk about it like it’s going in for a haircut. there’s the risks of mistakes, of infection. there’s post-op pain and swelling. Even if the decision to augment was affordable and ethically and socially acceptable, that operation part is a big deal, and I don’t hear people talking about it that way.
Comment by cchrissyy — April 23, 2008 @ 5:23 pm
Not that it will solve everything, but if your kids aren’t tiny any more, anyone ever heard of working out?
Comment by GetOffTheCouch — April 23, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
salt h2o - I actually agree with you that getting big fake boobs is vain & the money could be better spent elsewhere. Believe me, I see SO many women with huge, fake, breasts who just don’t look like real women anymore that it kind of makes me queezy. I also agree with you that people should age naturally (I’ve seen enough botoxed faces to never want that look for myself). But I do think there is a difference between getting breast augmentation just for the sake of having gigantic breasts and getting the surgery to restore what you once had.
I think the real issue is, like Chandelle said, how do we break out of the cycle of wanting to change what we have because we’re trying to “fit into a mold that doesn’t exist”? I also agree with Chandelle, in part, that this “mold” is created by men. However, there are plenty of men getting cosmetic surgery now too & I now my own husband struggles with things he doesn’t like about his body. So I look at the question of cosmetic surgery as not just a woman’s issue, but a human issue (although maybe I should classify it even further as an American issue).
Comment by brittany — April 23, 2008 @ 5:29 pm
#32 - I do work out - it doesn’t cure gravity or remove stretch marks.
Comment by brittany — April 23, 2008 @ 5:31 pm
#26 Shelah - My wife has the same mindset right now. Except that I’m in the skinny category and she claims to no longer be attracted to me. You think I can gain weight any easier than some of you can lose weight? Thanks for the double standard…
Comment by Joe — April 23, 2008 @ 5:31 pm
Having said that, I think a more wide-reaching goal of shifting cultural attitudes should still be in the forefront of feminist thought. I believe we can condemn the forces that make cosmetic surgery an appealing option for improving body acceptance among women, while still recognizing and respecting that individual women have real needs that are best met right now by cosmetic surgery.
Comment by brittany — April 23, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
I totally screwed up that blocking - sorry about that.
Comment by brittany — April 23, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
I don’t want botox, I don’t want bigger boobs, but I want to have the option of doing so without so much discrimination, and yet, by even saying that I can think (or judge) people I have seen who have done both (Priscilla Presley) so even in my mind set of allowing others to choose I still have judgment.
It isn’t created by men. (maybe and hopefully you mean “man” kind) but our problem is not the men. It is us. We are the ones (as women) painting our noses green(If I Only Had A Green Nose), or placing stickers upon us and others (You are Special both by Max Lucado) just so that we can feel like we are special. Not men! (I know that some like that look) but in general it isn’t them.
I still advocate those who want the surgery. I mentioned before that my sister had hers done and she looks beautiful… not to mention the fact that you can’t even tell they are fake.
Oh, and the whole surgery idea..eeck, but we should be able to choose.
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 5:55 pm
Even when my kids were tiny, I worked out. I lifted free weights while they were playing and had a step for aerobics in the family room and had a double jogging stroller and bike trailer. When the youngest was 3, I started at the gym. Even when I suffered from a chronic illness for a few years which caused me to lose weight, I kept up with strength training twice weekly so that I wasn’t losing muscle mass.
Now that I am in the midst of (I keep hoping) menopause, it is pure hell. I do 1.5 to 2 hours a day of active exercise, since I commute 9 miles into work, do some aerobics classes and walk with a friend. I also do strength training 2-3 times per week. Maybe it helps some, but I am still up five pounds from when my hormone fluctuations started. I’ve had to get a new wardrobe because it is all around the waist.
So advice to “work out,” especially from folks who don’t exercise near as much as I do, makes me want to scream. Right now it’s more than 10% of my waking hours that are devoted to exercise.
Comment by Naismith — April 23, 2008 @ 6:07 pm
While I agree, Sunshine, that women can be very judgmental of one another, it is largely men who have created this ideal of what women should look like. And even when it is not men creating this ideal, women feel compelled to live up to it in order to be attractive to men.
For example, the purpose of lipstick and blush is not just to give us rosy cheeks and lips. They essentially enable us to mimic what our cheeks and lips look like when we are sexually aroused, thereby making us more attractive to men.
IMO I think the rise in cosmetic surgery, particularly breast augmentation, could be directly linked to the rise in our cultural acceptance of pornography (I have no evidence to back this up, it’s just a guess). As more people view porn (not to be confused with pom) and find it acceptable, the silicone enhanced bodies of the women become more acceptable and desirable. This “ideal” filters down to your average woman who, while she may not see GG size breast as normal, no longer sees her own B cup as good enough.
That’s just my own theory and while I’m not going to stop shaving my legs or getting the occassional bikini wax (ouch), I see Chandelle’s point about how I am buying into a “patriarchal” system by doing so.
Comment by brittany — April 23, 2008 @ 6:28 pm
I would agree to that, but then I would say have you seen some of the women in those p*rn videos…(not that I have ever looked *awkward shrug*) but they are not all pretty, not to mention are all of them skinny and GG size…just off hand…
Eeh..maybe you’re right. I get so confused with my ups and downs..I would be a horrible example of a ‘flip-flopper’
Oh, and watch out for Shelah, she doesn’t like it when we use the p word spelled out!
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 6:46 pm
not horrible, but perfect example of a flip flopper
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 6:46 pm
i wanted to point to the prevalence of porn as well (alliteration!), but i didn’t know how it would be handled here. i think this is a hugely important matter. i’ve actually seen quite a lot of porn in my life, a wide range of it, and i would say that yes, the women do generally have very fake bodies, and having a good idea of how porn is made as well, i know exactly what they do to the women in the course of the making of the video, and exactly what they do to the video after it is made, to make it look that way. so it’s very sad that women have come to be judged by porn. not only do most normal women not look like the women in porn, but even the women in porn don’t look like that. most of it is computerized or added in some way during production. i would go into details but, ah, probably nobody wants to know about it anyway, and i’ll probably be caught in the filter as it is.
most women in porn are not “pretty” by common standards. it’s not about prettiness or even generalized attractiveness. it’s about the piecemeal production and distribution of parts.
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
i just want to clarify.
it’s men who sit at the head of large corporations that dictate what we should look like.
it’s all based on dollars, ladies. everything is for sale, including our self worth.
Comment by mfranti — April 23, 2008 @ 8:20 pm
And this, coming from a feminist!
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
…not sure how to read that last comment sunshine.
Comment by mfranti — April 23, 2008 @ 8:27 pm
just that it is men that sit at the head of large corporations, aren’t we as women fighting tooth and nail to get there too and alot of us succeeding, so …I don’t know..just being smart mouth I guess…*sheepish, apologetic, half smile shrug*
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 8:36 pm
i’m not disagreeing with your last statement, women that get that high up on the food chain aren’t looking out for thier sisters best interest either.
whole ‘nother post-so i will crawl back into my hole.
bye, goodnite. i’ve got packing to do.
Comment by mfranti — April 23, 2008 @ 8:49 pm
No, what is that again? Is that something that will fix the pooch I have after carrying babies that were over 12 lbs at birth, which meant a C-section was necessary? And which every personal trainer and physician have said will never go away no matter what I do? Will it stop my chest from trying to get to know my belly button better? Will that working out thing make all these silvery, shiny lines (see previous sentence regarding children who were in six-month-old clothing right after they were born) disappear from my abdomen?
Comment by Sariah — April 23, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
lol
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 8:59 pm
don’t give the assholes the benefit of thinking they have a reasonable argument.
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 9:05 pm
sorry. jerks. (just doesn’t have the same ring.)
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 9:06 pm
#32 - getofthecouch, I take specific issue with your statement. I am very aware of what I put into my body, I workout regularly (training for a triathlon), so when you say perhaps a little workout would change ones appearance and is a simplistic solution you want to apply to every individual. It is statements like yours that lay the foundation for all the judgment overweight individuals receive. I think the decision to have or not to have cosmetic surgery is far more complex than exercising.
Comment by Abby — April 23, 2008 @ 9:09 pm
thanks for the clarification mfranti - that’s what I was trying to say
Comment by brittany — April 23, 2008 @ 9:14 pm
51 who are you talking about…I think I am lost!
Comment by Sunshine — April 23, 2008 @ 9:28 pm
i was referring to all the arguments against getoffthecouch’s assertion that if you have a post-baby body you must be lazy.
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 9:37 pm
Having lived in, and oft visited S. Cal. I can say I see more boob jobs in the south end of the Salt Lake Valley than L.A. Just go to Costco on any day of the week. Is this phenomenon of sagging breast after children new? No. That is nature’s way, only nowdays we can pursue eternal youth if we have enough money..and vanity. Buy yourself a good, well fit bra, and don’t try to wear it “over a t-shirt”. Unless you have very small breasts or highly inflated breasts the bra will not support you like it was meant to.
Comment by hannatycc — April 23, 2008 @ 9:40 pm
over a t-shirt? are you referring to garments?
Comment by chandelle — April 23, 2008 @ 9:46 pm
I sympathize with the people who want surgery. I really do. I’ve always hated how my body looked. I’ve had a pooch from the time I was a little kid. I grew so fast from 10-12 that I’ve pretty much always had stretch marks on my breasts, which have always, always sagged.
That said, despite knowing how it feels to not like your body and to want it to change, I don’t think permanent body modification for vanity should be done. I don’t see how you can see this as anything but vanity, Sunshine-I obsess over my body and how it looks and I know that’s exactly what it is. Worrying about how I look rather than what I’m doing, controlling my thoughts, etc, etc.
Brittany, again, I sympathize, but even your justification doesn’t seem right to me. A lot of plastic surgery /is/ to just get back what someone used to have. The flat tummy, the wrinkleless face, etc, etc. That’s why we have the very strange-looking, expressionless people in Hollywood-they’ve tried to get back what they had rather than accept that they’ve aged and their bodies have changed.
I become more and more convinced that doing damage to our bodies to fit society’s standards is just wrong even at the same time I worry about my weight and how I can’t find clothes that fit and such. I’ve never pierced my ears, I don’t wear makeup, and I’ve given up shaving (why should I have to look like a pre-pubescent girl to be considered attractive?).
That said, I started out at a DDDD before I had my first son. I went up a cup size after he was born and it’s stayed. I’m seriously considering getting reduction surgery to get out of pain once I’m done having kids. If my breasts keep increasing in size with the one I’m pregnant with now and any hypothetical future children, I think there’s no doubt I will (and they’ll easily be able to remove enough that my insurance will cover it, hurrah!).
I think plastic surgery is a wonderful blessing to those who have been in accidents, have birth defects, have health problems that it could help, etc, etc. I just don’t think wanting to feel good about our bodies is a sufficient reason to be cutting them up. This is especially wince-worthy to me when I consider that the Savior took on all the pains of the world, including /all the physical pain we experience/. Adding to that burden when the truth of the matter is anyone who gets old is going to end up ugly and flabby seems really inappropriate to me.
Comment by Firebyrd — April 24, 2008 @ 12:21 am
I haven’t read through many of the comments, but you evidently want some arguments. Here’s a few…
The Steve Evans…How can you think of spending that much money on a boob job when there are children starving in Haiti?
The Ideal Husband…I think you look wonderful just how you are, dear, but if it’ll make you happy, go ahead. I can take about a week off work while you recover.
The Sensible Aunt…What’s the big deal? All you need is a well-fitting bra.
The Mother-in-Law…How can you think of exposing yourself to that level of unnecessary risk when you have little children at home? You do know that you have to sign a form that says that you could die.
The Sister…It’s your decision since you’re the one who has to look in the mirror every day.
The Idealist…The way we see our bodies is an artifact of our culture and particularly the advertising industry. We shouldn’t bow to the gods of the marketplace and those of eternal youth.
The Father-in-Law…That’s an awful lot of money. Wouldn’t you be better putting that into your retirement accounts so you can take care of yourselves in your old age? Remember the power of compound interest.
The Jewish Mother…Well, go ahead, it’s your body. Just don’t come crying to me when you end up with two different size breasts.
The Girlfriend…Sure; you’ll look better. Here’s the number for my surgeon. They take Visa, Mastercard and American Express.
Comment by Researcher — April 24, 2008 @ 7:33 am
researcher…
best comment on this thread.
Comment by mfranti — April 24, 2008 @ 8:50 am
Researcher- that was hilarious!
I think there are at least two different catagories of women here. Women who ALWAYS hated their bodies and women who simply want to look like themselves pre-pregnancy.
I was shocked when my SIL who had triplets at 20 told me she was getting a tummy tuck. She’s 50 now, married to the Bishop, Primary/RS/YW president type. But she shared how she has to tuck her skin folds into large pants for the last 30 years. She’s ran marathons and been in great shape, but that’s something that just won’t go away. She can’t wear a lot of clothes off the rack. This has obviously been something that’s bothered her for years.
I disagree with saltH2o that we shouldn’t worry about our appearance and instead focus on world suffering. Why can’t we care about both? A huge part of desiring intimacy in marriage is how comfortable we feel in our own skin. I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that someone divorced because of lack of intimacy that boiled down to the woman not liking her body.
Comment by sofia — April 24, 2008 @ 9:18 am
sofia, that’s a very important point. but again, could the money be better put toward therapy to learn coping mechanisms and acceptance rather than surgery? (not that i’m a big fan of therapy, because i’m not, but this still seems like an underlying issue to me.) struggling with clothing that never fits or the discomfort of having lots of extra skin is simply not the same as simply wanting to look 20 again. (but maybe i’m just saying that because i want my hopes for a reduction to be valid and not vain.)
Comment by chandelle — April 24, 2008 @ 9:32 am
Chandelle,
Maybe you should go to therapy? IT might help you figure out valid vs vain.
Comment by Sunshine — April 24, 2008 @ 9:39 am
Chandelle, I didn’t mean for that to sound rude. Sorry if it did.
My question now is, if you have 5,000 would you really spend it on the starving kids or would you use it to pay of debt, get a bigger kitchen, buy a better car (hybrid), get food storage, or save for retirement? Really, if that is the issue then match what you spend on your boob job and send some money to Africa.
Actually that is a whole other issue I have, I think that we should help the people in America first and then go outside the country and help others. Let’s get this country stable so that we can really do some good elsewhere. How many people from the Hurricane still don’t have a house? Some of those people have kids too!
Comment by Sunshine — April 24, 2008 @ 9:53 am
Breast reduction was so much worth it for me… I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…. I’d endure that level of pain again over having my life prior to surgery.
It was 1985 - I hadn’t even met my DH (we met in ‘86) and I was a single working girl and living the life far from where I had grown up, & a sweet little apartment - at that time in my happy hour was the most important hour of the day after working eight hours for ‘the man’.
anyway … no matter who I met (men or women) they simply couldn’t look me in the eye for the gawking at my bustline. It was amazing for sure… as in side-show circus amazing. Can’t count how many times a perfect stranger would sidle up to me and in a fertive whisper ask, “do you mind….” At which point I’d pointely respond, “No I won’t, and it’s none of your business.”
The pain was chronic - never mind trying to find clothes that looked decent. On top of that - I’m 5′1″ - but there was nothing petite about my shape.
Suffice it to say, the insurance covered everything 100%. Combined, just over 7 pounds of breast tissue was removed, and I’m still stacked. Nursing was not an option for my kids, but given my size to begin with - it would have been difficult.
For those who desire to give me a ration for making this decision pre-baby, pre-everything else. You weren’t there. You didn’t live it. If my daughters are faced with the same type of situation I can speak plainly about my own experience. As for the nursing issue…. all I can say is - I have four healthy kids.
fyi - if you measure the scars end-to-end it is 36″ .. and it all is covered by my brassiere/swimsuit. gotta love skilled plastic surgeons.
make it a great day sisters and brothers
Comment by Mary Magdalene — April 24, 2008 @ 9:54 am
Chandelle,
Thanks for calling me an asshole. Are you this nice in person? Or do you save your mild insults for the web and use serious ones face to face. It’s women like you that make me feel unwelcome on blogs like this.
Comment by Anon — April 24, 2008 @ 9:58 am
Maybe you should go to therapy? IT might help you figure out valid vs vain.
i was being facetious. my suggestion for therapy was also not very serious. my comment is primarily that serious discomfort with one’s body is probably not because there is something really wrong with the body; it’s become something is wrong emotionally. that’s speaking from experience. it’s different for everyone. therapy might actually help some people. again, this is a different issue than someone who can’t wear normal clothes without physical discomfort from a lot of extra skin or enormous breasts.
anon, are you the getoffthecouch from before? if so, yes, i am this nice in person to such condescending, hurtful people. if you are not the getoffthecouch from before, then i wasn’t talking to you.
Comment by chandelle — April 24, 2008 @ 10:09 am
dear anon, get off the couch, and a multitude of other names that i wont publicly post
perhaps if you stuck to one identity and didn’t always try to pick a fight, we might get to know you a little better and not consider you a troll.
i try to make everyone feel welcome on this site but all of your comments in the past have always felt like a splinter in our thumb. not too painfull but terribly annoying.
please don’t come here fists a-blazing nd then bitch when nobody plays nicely.
thanks
mfranti
Comment by mfranti — April 24, 2008 @ 10:22 am
I am the one that posted about working out. And if you had taken the time to actually read the posts before mine, and then what I wrote, you would know that I did mention that it wasn’t the solution for everything, but can be a solution for some.
I got in the best shape of my life after my third child, and no longer feel like I need surgery. I love my body now. I don’t have the tightest skin everywhere, but I am lean and strong and toned.
I’m sorry you are such a miserable person you have to insult total strangers. Perhaps you should read everything before you shoot your mouth off, and things won’t seem so irritating to you in the future.
Comment by GetOffTheCouch — April 24, 2008 @ 10:24 am
i did read everything, and i still don’t believe that drive-by comments like yours are productive. perhaps you should have gone in depth about your statement instead of shooting of your mouth in a one-sentence assessment about everyone here.
Comment by chandelle — April 24, 2008 @ 10:33 am
i think this was a reasonably peaceful conversation before comments like yours and mine. i’ll duck out now and i hope you will as well.
Comment by chandelle — April 24, 2008 @ 10:35 am
I think the therapy idea is a valid one. There are good reasons for cosmetic surgery. There are terrible ones too. I personally would never consider surgery for such reasons as:
-To improve my self esteem
-To save my marriage
-To look great at my HS reunion
-To avoid exercise or good nutrition
-Because everyone is doing it
-To fix my emotional problems
-Etc.
I found this website with good information about Cosmetic surgery and questions to ask yourselves to see if your motivations are vain, valid, or would be better served by therapy.
http://www.drazouz.com/answers.htm
Comment by sofia — April 24, 2008 @ 11:02 am
I guess I should clarify a little bit, since it seems like some people are trying to talk me out of surgery. If you read the last line of my post I said I’m NOT going to have surgery. I think all of the arguments against cosmetic surgery are very valid ones, but I also think it’s a very personal choice for anyone who wants it. Being a petite person who was a D before kids, I understand the discomfort that can come from large breasts. (i’m actually grateful to be a B now, saggy though they may be).
The purpose of my post was to address some of the body issues women have that may stem from the unnatural portrayals of women we often see. I think, if nothing else, we’ve learned from our dialogue that we all have some physical aspect we’d like to change about ourselves; but what really needs to change is our own perceptions about what beauty really is.
Comment by brittany — April 24, 2008 @ 12:42 pm
I lived in OC for four years and was impressed at how great everyone looked
It really WAS like the movies, to me. It wasn’t until a year or two passed that I realized the extent of surgical enhancements. It didn’t make me feel unpretty, just amazed at the lengths people were willing to go. The money part does get to me but you can’t choose how other people spend their dinero.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with wanting to feel or look your breast, I mean, best. Surgeries, cosmetics, personal trainers–all can be taken to extremes. I love calling it reconstructive. However, most of the women I know who’ve had it done weren’t thinking in that vein at all. It’s not worth it to me but if it were, I wouldn’t feel like I’d have to defend myself to anyone.
One of my good friends had a reduction in high school and her quality of life improved enormously. I think breast reductions should be completely free.
Comment by Lupita — April 24, 2008 @ 2:15 pm
I will be 60 this year. Neither my face nor my body will ever look the way it did when I was 25 regardless of diet, exercise, or surgery; but I like the idea of aging gracefully as discussed/pictured in this MSNBC photo story. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23358946
Comment by Melissa — April 24, 2008 @ 3:51 pm
That is a fantastic story & so true. It’s funny it mentions “The Real Housewives of Orange County” b/c I live relatively close to the “gated community” where those women live (it’s part of our stake actually). Whenever I am in the vicinity of that neighborhood the number of botoxed, freaky-looking faces I see increases. It’s really very entertaining, in a sad way, to see what these women will do & wear to try to look as young as their daughters. I am here to testify, money cannot buy youth, but it can buy a loss of dignity.
Comment by brittany — April 24, 2008 @ 4:58 pm
Wow, I guess that is one benefit of being flat as a pancake. As a teenager, I always wondered why the boob fairy passed me by and was very embarrassed to be flatter than a pre-teen. Even pregnant, I do not gain a cup size. I only go up one cup while nursing and then go back down afterwards. But I do not sag. There is nothing TO sag. I long ago decided it was better to be too flat than too huge. I can lay on my stomach no problem and never get backaches. I can play any sport no problem. I will never get a boob job because I look the same as I always have even after nursing 4 kids for a year each. Unfortunately, I do have a permanent pooch on my abdomen from those kids that makes me look perpetually 4 months pregnant since my waist is smaller than my abdomen. I have been asked if I was pregnant before because of it! I wish spot reducing were real. Oh well.
Comment by Anonymous Lurker — April 24, 2008 @ 8:49 pm
I’m surprised I haven’t seen yet the quote from Elder Holland’s conference talk fall 205–here it is:
“In this same vein may I address an even more sensitive subject. I plead with you young women to please be more accepting of yourselves, including your body shape and style, with a little less longing to look like someone else. We are all different. Some are tall, and some are short. Some are round, and some are thin. And almost everyone at some time or other wants to be something they are not! But as one adviser to teenage girls said: “You can’t live your life worrying that the world is staring at you. When you let people’s opinions make you self-conscious you give away your power. … The key to feeling [confident] is to always listen to your inner self—[the real you.]” 8 And in the kingdom of God, the real you is “more precious than rubies.” 9 Every young woman is a child of destiny and every adult woman a powerful force for good. I mention adult women because, sisters, you are our greatest examples and resource for these young women. And if you are obsessing over being a size 2, you won’t be very surprised when your daughter or the Mia Maid in your class does the same and makes herself physically ill trying to accomplish it. We should all be as fit as we can be—that’s good Word of Wisdom doctrine. That means eating right and exercising and helping our bodies function at their optimum strength. We could probably all do better in that regard. But I speak here of optimum health; there is no universal optimum size.
“Frankly, the world has been brutal with you in this regard. You are bombarded in movies, television, fashion magazines, and advertisements with the message that looks are everything! The pitch is, “If your looks are good enough, your life will be glamorous and you will be happy and popular.” That kind of pressure is immense in the teenage years, to say nothing of later womanhood. In too many cases too much is being done to the human body to meet just such a fictional (to say nothing of superficial) standard. As one Hollywood actress is reported to have said recently: “We’ve become obsessed with beauty and the fountain of youth. … I’m really saddened by the way women mutilate [themselves] in search of that. I see women [including young women] … pulling this up and tucking that back. It’s like a slippery slope. [You can’t get off of it.] … It’s really insane … what society is doing to women.” 10
“In terms of preoccupation with self and a fixation on the physical, this is more than social insanity; it is spiritually destructive, and it accounts for much of the unhappiness women, including young women, face in the modern world. And if adults are preoccupied with appearance—tucking and nipping and implanting and remodeling everything that can be remodeled—those pressures and anxieties will certainly seep through to children. At some point the problem becomes what the Book of Mormon called “vain imaginations.” 11 And in secular society both vanity and imagination run wild. One would truly need a great and spacious makeup kit to compete with beauty as portrayed in media all around us. Yet at the end of the day there would still be those “in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers” as Lehi saw, 12 because however much one tries in the world of glamour and fashion, it will never be glamorous enough.”
Comment by anita — April 24, 2008 @ 11:08 pm
that should be 2005, not 205 (as far as I know, he wasn’t speaking to the early Christian church then)
Comment by anita — April 24, 2008 @ 11:09 pm
The thing that gets me is the language that people use when they talk about the desire for cosmetic surgery. They want to ‘get their body back’ or ‘get back to their normal body.’ Women today feel so detached from their bodies, as if the body is some elusive thing that is separate from the self…but let me tell you something ladies…you still have your body, you don’t need to ‘get it back.’ The body you have now *is* normal….most women were designed to gain weight with pregnancy, to have curves. I’ve struggled with body image my entire life (I read a list of goals from high school and even back then ‘lose weight’ was one of them.) I’ve gone through various levels of self-loathing and it pretty much changes on a daily basis. I’m trying to feel ‘embodied’ and not be a critic, standing outside, looking at my body, judging its faults. It’s hard, in our ‘lookist’ society, to accept that there’s nothing wrong with our bodies, that having some weight is not a ‘defect’ - but it’s not. I’m firmly in the camp that we need to learn to change our thinking rather than change ourselves, and I struggle with this on a daily basis. But I am also firm in my conviction that I will never have cosmetic surgery.
FWIW, I’m not against reconstructive surgery - my husband was born with cleft lip and palate and has had over 20 surgeries, some of them cosmetic to make his face more symmetrical. To me, that’s very different from getting a boob job or a tummy tuck because we ‘want our body back.’ Again, we never lost the body - we just allow society to dictate what a body should look like, we begin to feel disembodied through self loathing, and we start to look at ourselves in parts rather than as a whole.
Oh and that ‘mommy makeover’ that cosmetic surgeons like to offer women? The idea that being pregnant and giving birth warrants corrective surgery because it creates multiple defectsin our bodies? This is absolutely selling an ideal for a high markup to make maximum profit on women who feel like, perhaps, they’ve lost some control over their lives, but through spending cash can at least gain control over their bodies. It’s a moneymaking issue, preying on people’s insecurities, and it’s a control issue - many mothers feel as though they have less power and control due to the demands of motherhood and the lack of social and economic power. (Diets and ‘body shaping’ work in much the same way.) I’m going to stop because I’ve gone on long enough. As you can tell, I feel very passionately about this topic.
(P.S. - I know this is slightly off topic, but botox is the ‘botulism toxin,’ and people actually pay to put this in their faces. I went to a panel at grad school where even Naomi Wolf said she sees botox becoming commonplace and that she might do it. Why are we so afraid of wrinkles? Why is change so abhorrent?)
Comment by VirtualM — April 25, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
I’m convinced. I’m going to stop wearing makeup, coloring my hair, caring about clothes that flatter me, and I’ll stop exercise and healthy dieting. I might even buy a bunch of pastel pioneer dresses and french braid my hair. And when I no longer appeal to my husband, he’ll find a nice 15-yr.-old to be my sister-wife. That’s a lot better than the shallow world I’ve been in!
Comment by sofia — April 25, 2008 @ 6:08 pm
I don’t wear make-up, shave my legs, color my hair. I do exercise and eat healthy, but that’s more for how I feel on the inside when I do. I personally find it demeaning to have to alter my natural body in order to be considered attractive. Obviously I’m very opposed to unnecessary plastic surgery. But if someone else wants to spend their hard-earned money on it, I’m not going to judge them.
By the way Sofia, my husband finds me extremely attractive.
Comment by Melissa — April 25, 2008 @ 7:29 pm
sofia, i think you’re missing the point. there’s a very big difference between exercising and eating well (maintaining a healthy body so we can work, play and live long lives) and wearing makeup, dying your hair and shaving (playing to the expectations from society of what a woman should look like, which is to say, completely the opposite of what women really look like). i don’t wear makeup, shave my legs or dye my hair. i don’t do these things because i reject the ideology that because my legs have hair on them, because my hair will turn grey as i age, and because my face looks as it does, i need to attach something to it, or remove something from it, to be acceptable, to be beautiful, to be “a real woman.” i reject that utterly, just as i reject the ideas that a man who has hair on his back or a smaller-than-average penis or thick bushy eyebrows has something so fundamentally wrong with him that it needs everyday or permanent alteration. however, i exercise and eat healthy. i do these things not to maintain a good-looking body (and actually, because i’m hypothyroidic my efforts are more or less useless when it comes to my weight) but because i want to live a long healthy life free of disease. i don’t see what in that makes me like a sister-wife. and i see absolutely no connection whatsoever between being aware of and proud of the body you’ve been given and polygamist compounds. and for what it’s worth, my husband also finds me extremely attractive, and in fact it was he who convinced me to stop shaving, dyeing my hair or wearing makeup - not because he wants me smothered and shadowed, but because he celebrates my true self and unequivocally denies the societal message that these things are required for women to be acceptable members of society.
Comment by chandelle — April 25, 2008 @ 7:59 pm
Also, Sofia, there’s a HUGE jump between stuff like makeup and hair coloring to cosmetic surgery. Cosmetic surgery is a permanent alteration of the body, which you already know. Makeup and hair color is a temporary performance, reversible, and don’t require a person to go under general anesthesia. Over a lifetime they can get expensive, but people don’t generally go into debt over them. But the real goal here is to feel comfortable enough with who we are that we don’t feel as though we HAVE to have these things in order to feel that we are worthwhile.
I do wear makeup sometimes because I like it - but I realize that I’m making a conscious ‘performance’ when I do so and I’m okay with that. I also color my hair, mainly because I like it funky, another ‘performance’. We all take on different personas in our lives based on who we’re with, what we do, etc. - makeup, hair, clothes are a part of that. Maybe I’m a hypocrite for being against plastic surgery, but the idea of permanent, sometimes dangerous surgical alteration of a body seems quite extreme to me and very different from non-invasive procedures such as wearing makeup, hairstyle, even shaving legs. Going as far as surgically ‘coding’ the body to conform with society’s standard - which is fickle - will leave many women (and men) still unfulfilled. It is expensive, sometimes riddled with complications, and sets an unhealthy precedent for our daughters. I don’t think anyone ever said to give up on doing things to make you feel happy, feminine, whatever….but I think that we as a whole need to expand our ideas of beauty so that we can find more than a narrow ideal attractive, beautiful, desirable, etc.
Comment by VirtualM — April 25, 2008 @ 8:45 pm
As far as “getting bodies back” goes…well, pregnancy and breastfeeding are not the only culprits. Someday, whether you ever have a child or not, your body gives in to the two real enemies: Time and gravity. I’ve never even been pregnant and I’d love to have my 26-year-old body back, but now that I’m in my 40s, that’s not realistic. Sagging, a tummy pooch, wrinkles…they’re all there. You won’t be able to know what your body would have looked like if you never had children, but from what I’ve observed, aside from cup size changes (or at least dramatic ones), bodies via aging end up looking remarkably the same whether you’ve been pregnant once, seven times, or never.
Comment by RE — April 26, 2008 @ 6:12 am
It was sarcasm, people.
For what it’s worth, I don’t wear much makeup, (usually mascara on Sunday), I don’t shave during Fall & Winter, and I don’t care much for clothes and shoes as long as I have a few well-fitting outfits. I don’t really care much for the maintenance rituals women do. But I think many well-adjusted women do. I think we see the example of Hollywood and a few women with low self esteem and extrapolate that all cosmetic surgery is purely vanity and self loathing. I actually like my body. Like others here my breast-size increased with pregnancy. It causes me backaches and prevents me from wearing a lot of clothes-(anything knit, unless it’s as big as a tent). I’m an active girl who exercises (wearing double sports bras), takes care of six kids, and is going back to school in healthcare. I don’t want to have cosmetic surgery now, but I want to retain that option if I decide to go down that road. Not for society, not for my husband, but for my comfort. :p
Comment by sofia — April 26, 2008 @ 8:40 am
but again, sofia, there’s a big difference between having plastic surgery to regain some semblance of your former self, because you don’t feel attractive because you don’t look 20 anymore, and so on, and having the surgery because you’re in pain and experiencing a lot of physical discomfort from excess tissue or oversized breasts. i get what you’re saying and i don’t think we actually disagree with each other here.
Comment by chandelle — April 26, 2008 @ 10:36 am
I’m going to dare “weigh in” here (pun intended) and add some male perspective if y’all don’t mind too much.
As a regular kind of guy, I confess to some confusion in earlier posts regarding “patriarchy” that is allegedly driving this whole thing. First off, I’m not even sure what that means. Aren’t the editors of Vogue and Glamor women? I find women judging each other a much bigger factor for how women see themselves than us guys judging them. Sorry to disagree with many of you, but I think y’all are your own worst critics — no need to blame us guys!
When I’m at the gym trying to stay in shape, I realize that part of my motivation is, as my H.S. soccer coach put it, that all of us are partly made of “hamburger” — most people want to be noticed, admired, and maybe even envied. And when I’m killing myself to add some definition to my abs (well, ok, trying to keep the spare tire at bay!) or define my shoulders or biceps or chest, I’m doing it as much for the other guys as I am for the women (and trust me, I don’t have a gay bone in my body). Don’t all of us just want to be admired and accepted (just a little)?
Elder Holland touched on an important point — everyone is different, and everyone has different tastes. What’s attractive to one guy is a turn-off for another. I personally don’t find implant-enhanced breasts appealing at all, nor do I know of any guys who do (though obviously some must). In fact, cup size is pretty much never a factor in how I rate a woman’s looks — it’s the whole package, including personality and confidence and wit and talent that makes a woman attractive to me. Take Pride and Prejudice for example; I can admire (and lust after!) both Lizzies — Jennifer Ehle and Keira Knightly, despite them having polar opposite bodies.
Two of my adult daughters work in the beauty industry; one does hair, the other works at a school of aesthetics (facials, microderm abrasion, waxing, pedicures, etc.). Both have first-hand knowledge of how to make the most of what you have, without resorting to anything fake. Dragging a comb or brush through your hair doesn’t constitute vanity or conformity does it? There is something to looking as good as you can, no?
Just be yourself — no harm being your best self however — ‘cuz there’s surely someone out there who will approve and admire you just the way you are.
Comment by Rich — April 26, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
I feel like I should tackle the idea of women policing one another’s appearance, and how that relates to the patriarchy. I was going to say something about this earlier, but the conversation moved on, but now that it has popped up again I feel I can address it without threadjacking.
Patriarchy in the feminist vernacular is a social power structure where a few (not all) white men are at the very very top and everyone else falls somewhere below that. As a general rule men tend to fall above women, white people fall above people of color, and non-disabled people fall above disabled people. The power structure is built on control of money, and social influence and is perpetuated through sexism, racism and ableism.
So here’s the big thing, women are not immune from being sexist or misogynist. A woman can be sexist against men, against certain types of women, all women, and even herself. So just because the chief editor of vogue is a woman doesn’t mean that the magazine isn’t chock full of sexist garbage. And just because the CEO of PeTA is a woman doesn’t mean that their ads aren’t replete with violence, objectification, and misogyny.
When women hate on each other for how they look or act this perpetuates the social structure. Even though it is women doing the judging, critiquing or the self-loathing, men as a class benefit from it.
And you cannot deny that men frequently exert pressure on women directly. Strangers on the street telling women to smile, or cat calling, and wolf whistles are a huge source of pressure. Men stare at women’s chests (and we notice). We notice which girls boys ask out on dates (and boys reliably pick the most conventionally attractive girls first even when they state more idealistic primary interests). I’ve heard men bemoan how women chop off their hair when they have kids. Men introduce their ‘lovely wife’ to friends, and coworkers. All of these things put an emphasis on a woman’s appearance. Again even if an individual man doesn’t do this, he can still benefit from it by way of the social structure it perpetuates.
Lastly I tend to think that while most of the (for lack of a better word) cattiness is competitive, a large part of women’s judgement against one another is rooted in concern. When my mom told me (at age 16) to suck in my gut she was doing so because she wanted me to be attractive and well liked and thought that conforming to a certain beauty ideal would help. And she was mostly right, pretty women are privileged in many ways.
Comment by Starfoxy — April 26, 2008 @ 3:40 pm
Rich, I love you! I was trying to tell them that it isn’t the mans fault or the whole ‘patriarchy’. It is the women who do this to women. Leave the guys alone. All the guys are doing is making us happy. I can’t tell you have aggravated I get that we blame so much on the men. For crying out loud, have some dignity and admit that the reason why we shave our legs, put makeup on, and get dressed the way we do is to impress ourselves and other women..and an added bonus if the men get something out of it.
Rich, I am so glad that you gave us your opinion! Thank you!
Comment by Sunshine — April 26, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
And just because the CEO of PeTA is a woman doesn’t mean that their ads aren’t replete with violence, objectification, and misogyny.
ugh…i HATE peta’s ads of naked women. i don’t understand the disconnect between exploitation of animals and exploitation of women.
Comment by chandelle — April 26, 2008 @ 8:31 pm
Starfoxy, good explanation.
Sunshine, I’d argue with the idea that… well, actually, I’d argue with pretty much everything you said in that last comment (really, where did the “all the guys are doing is making us happy” come from??), but the main point I want to argue is that we do these things to “impress other women.” Superficially that may be the case, but underneath it goes back to conforming to what we believe is the male ideal. Women may enforce the ideals, but it’s in response to something. Have you read Ariel Levy’s Female Chauvinist Pigs? It’s a good read.
Comment by Shannon — April 26, 2008 @ 8:46 pm
Power and Competition
We’ve been clearing the irrigation ditch of winter overgrowth. I’ve been reflecting on the Women’s Movement. Some early reformers insisted that empowering women required teaching them about competition.
It’s true that we women of a certain age (pre-Title 9) never really understood competition.
We thought we’d learned competition at our mother’s knee. We thought we’d refined our skills through the crucible of Jr. High, and executed flawlessly from Garden Club to PTA the most carefully wrought and exquisitely nuanced sense of competition.
We were mistaken.
I just figured out that what we thought was competition was instead naught but the petty tyranny of the powerless.
That said, I think that power and competition have little really to do with each other.
Remember those football Saturdays when the husbands sat around talking enthusiastically about power tools? We women would then smile indulgently. One of us might say, “Boys and their toys!” We chuckled at the silly but endearing fellows – just as our Mothers did before us.
THAT’S where we went wrong Ladies. You want to teach a girl about power? Hand that gal a chain saw! We cut through close to a mile of bramble yesterday. Man, NOTHING was standing in our way. I felt GREAT!
Some ladies cut brambles, others cut noses or boobs or tummys. Whatever works…
Just don’t cut in response to the petty tyranny of the powerless (male or female) and it will be ok.
Comment by Betty Jo — April 26, 2008 @ 9:42 pm
SF, you know I’ve been a fan for a long time, right? Yet I’m going to take some exception to what’s being claimed. This whole “patriarchal power structure” theory sounds an awful lot like a conversation with my John Bircher neighbor about the Illuminati and the Trilateral Commission — shadowy secret societies run by ultra rich white guys who control all the world’s economies — the whole conspiratorial aspect seems a bit far-fetched. Some shadowy group of power-crazed men sitting in far-away board rooms are subtly somehow conditioning society to get women to have breast implants…? Because we men benefit from that…how exactly?
There’s no denying that guys notice/look at breasts. How much of that is socialization, and how much is millions of years of evolutionary biology (breasts being the most obvious physical characteristic that signals the brain that you are looking at a woman instead of a man)? Who can say? Would you rather that we not notice? Of course men are all too often behaving badly; too many of us obviously need lessons in manners and respect and making eye contact. But we will continue to look — we are wired to look.
Did Hugh Hefner build the Playboy empire by socially conditioning men to like the big-breasted women featured in his magazine, or did he simply exploit the fact that for most men, somewhere lurking in the primitive parts of our brains, lies an attraction to full breasts and round hips because our sub-consciousness tells us these are the signs of healthy, fertile women who will bear us healthy children?
Shannon, I’m not sure what to make of this statement:
Why is anyone conforming to what they think is the male ideal? What is the female ideal (and should women conform to that instead)? Are they different?
The answers, I believe, go back to what I said earlier. We want to be found attractive — to be noticed, to be appealing, or…? Am I missing something here? What and how would you change the world if you could?
Why do women get their nails done; seriously, do any of you believe that men even notice your nails? Do you get them done because you’re concerned? (BTW, we rarely notice your nails, unless we’re lucky enough to get a back-scratch).
I helped raise 3 daughters. I spent A LOT more time comforting hurt feelings and emotional damage done to them by other girls while in Jr. High and High School. Girls can be so darn mean, competitive, and judgmental to each other! They dress and obsess and fuss more about pleasing each other than the guys — my daughters have told me this (I didn’t make it up). Yet somehow the men are thereby benefitting from all this cat-fighting? And it’s ultimately our fault when all is said and done?
I’m really confused!
Ironically, most of the tears my daughters shed over boys had to do with the boys not noticing them.
Lastly, is there a double standard? Do women really not care if we men are out of shape, bald, short, smell bad, or are covered in hair? Are my efforts in the gym a waste of time?
Comment by Rich — April 27, 2008 @ 1:24 am
Rich-
I can only speak for myself, but yes, we do care. I do hope, however, that you are doing some of that for yourself. There’s a big difference between exercising for health and trying to create a six-pack of abs in your mid-40’s. There’s also a professional advantage. When society sees a clean shaven, fit man who is dressed appropriately for his profession, society often gives him the advantage regardless of ability. The same is true for women. To “let yourself go” would be bad for your health, your career, and possibly your relationship with your spouse.
Comment by sofia — April 27, 2008 @ 8:11 am
“most of the tears my daughters shed over boys had to do with the boys not noticing them.”
Exactly. Girls compete with each other in order to “win” approval from guys. Girls are mean to each other and try to tell themselves (and others sometimes) that they are better than their competitors. And it is all about being a certain standard of beautiful and cool to get a guy.
Comment by jks — April 27, 2008 @ 11:30 am
Thanks for the definition of patriarchy SF. I have to disagree with you though about women’s “cattiness” being rooted in concern as much as competition. After reading the past few comments from both you and Rich and others, I’m starting to think that the current plastic surgery craze is rooted in biology and patriarchy.
Let me try to articulate my thoughts. Women and men both do things that will make them more attractive to the opposite sex, (although women certainly do more, for the most part). Generally we do things that will make us more attractive to society as a whole until we attract a mate and then we do things that specific mate finds attractive. For example, Chandelle (if I’m reading her comment correctly) used to shave etc. until her husband encouraged her not to. I, on the other hand, shave more now b/c my husband likes smooth skin (not because he likes prepubescent girls as someone else said about men who want women to shave) . My point being, it’s in our best interest to attract a mate so we can propigate our species. This is just basic biology.
The problem comes when society starts dictating unrealistic ideals about what women (and men to a lesser degree) need to look like in order to attract a mate. Here is where patriarchy comes in to play IMO. If you look at what people look at to determine what is attractive, it is the entertainment industry. It is the people who make movies, publish magazines, etc. etc. They are the people who present women such as Pamela Anderson and Kate Moss as desirable and attractive. While these women don’t have similar bodies, the bodies they both have are similarly unattainable for most women without surgery or starvation. And who are the people running the entertainment industry? For the most part they are white males. Even women’s magazines like Vogue and Elle are owned by parent companies such as Time Warner, which, I believe has a man as the CEO.
So there is my long explanation to create some middle ground between what Rich and Starfoxy and others are saying. I may be totally wrong, but that’s my opinion.
And just as a total threadjack, I’m curious as to what part of Idaho you live in Rich that you have a Bircher for a neighbor. (If I knew how to do an emoticon there would be a smiling, winking one here.)
Comment by brittany — April 27, 2008 @ 12:46 pm
I think you may be missing something- does that shadowy group of men subjugate women to benefit all men everywhere? Do they do it to benefit you personally? No. They don’t care about other men, they care about earnings and their own personal benefit. Who are these shadowy groups of (mostly) men? Well, here’s a few, and a few more (pdf warning). Unilever and Proctor & Gamble are parent companies to several brand names that produce cosmetics, toiletries, and all sorts of other consumables. Do those people benefit from widespread insecurity among women? You bet. Women control the vast majority of daily purchases, and an insecure woman is more prone to buy something to make herself feel better or fix whatever she feels needs fixing. Are ads carefully crafted to play on already existing insecurities? Yep.
So how does this trickle down to other men? One way is that all the money women spend on make up and clothes is money that men don’t have to spend, that puts men as a class at an economic advantage to women as a class.
So why do I think girls are so mean to each other, especially over how they look? I think it all comes down to money. It is still true that the most effective way for a woman to get economic security is to attract an affluent man. (Thankfully it is not the *only* way, but it is still the easiest.) Being not just pretty, but prettier than the other girls ensures that she will be the first to get noticed which introduces an element of competition and gives rise to the bitter fights. Getting noticed is important because it is the first step to finding a good man to marry and depend on. Yes the girls are fighting with other girls, but they are fighting *over* the attentions of the boys.
Now, you can’t you point at any one boy or man and say “You! you are causing this!” Yet, that individual boy or man can benefit from it because he is part of class that is privileged.
Comment by Starfoxy — April 27, 2008 @ 12:53 pm
Rich,
My statement about the “male ideal” links to the whole theory of the male gaze, and the role that has in media. It may not be what every man enjoys, but because that is the image that is repeatedly portrayed, it is taken as the ideal. Generally, things are viewed through the eyes of a heterosexual man (often white), so things like curves, etc are focused on. It’s why when I walked into American Apparel last weekend, for example, I was greeted by a 10′ x 10′ shot of a teeanage girl’s tight little behind encased in revealing boy-shorts.
The whole concept of gazing has an effect “in person” too - I’m in education, and there are very real differences between the way female students act in co-ed classes, and the way they act in single sex ones. That’s not to say all cattiness disappears, but the whole dynamic definitely changes. There’s a lot less focus on appearance, and way less “sabotage,” so to speak.
Hopefully that helps explain my earlier comment.
Comment by Shannon — April 27, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
Shannon, it comes from my husband doing his damndest to provide for me, our family, and himself. He is doing his best to make me happy. Making me happy makes him happy because I want to make him happy for making me happy. Maybe you are in a world where all you see is how small you are as a female and how the male is this big bad person who tells me how to think and feel.
Maybe, maybe not. My husband makes me happy. He works hard, and to blame him for my insecurities is just ridiculous. They are mine and I own them. I choose whether or not to feel more insecure about myself or my body by looking at magazines, products, makeup, whatever. No company can tell me what to feel, so in my mind it isn’t the mans fault. If you are feeling insecure by looking at those magazines, well, for crying out loud stop looking at them.
I am not saying that all men are searching out ways to make women happy. I am not saying that all men don’t lust after the womans body in inappropriate ways, but it is not men as a whole, and they shouldn’t be blamed as a whole for something that my husband never created.
I wear makeup, nice clothes and use oils to smell good. I exercise, eat healthy and take care of my body. Not because some man in Corporate Headquarters told me to. I do it because I feel better when I do. I feel alive inside when I look good. I am not skinny, my boobs are not perky, my butt is sagging and I am starting to get wrinkles but I still feel good when I take care of myself.
Own your issues. Stop blaming them on the men. My mother taught me years ago to not look at those magazines. She told me that they only make you feel worse about your self and she was right. Man was she ever right! What a great mother I have. I feel good because of me not anybody else!
Comment by Sunshine — April 27, 2008 @ 2:53 pm
For example, Chandelle (if I’m reading her comment correctly) used to shave etc. until her husband encouraged her not to. I, on the other hand, shave more now b/c my husband likes smooth skin (not because he likes prepubescent girls as someone else said about men who want women to shave) .
hm…i hope it didn’t sound as though i stopped shaving to “get/keep a mate” as you refer to it - as in my husband prefers hairy, your husband prefers smooth, and we’re both capitulating. what actually happened was that i always had discomfort with doing something that really brought me no joy, i hated capitulating to the patriarchy’s perceptions of beauty, but i thought it was necessary to be found attractive. my husband showed me the error of my ways.
(and FWIW, if you let your hair grow out you don’t become less smooth. in fact, i’d say it’s better. my skin is constantly protected, so i never need lotion or anything else to maintain its smoothness, and i also never have to fight stubble or other smoothness-defying unpleasantness. the hair itself is very smooth.)
Comment by chandelle — April 27, 2008 @ 5:47 pm
[…] FMH guest post on The Shape of a Mother […]
Pingback by Virtual Oases, April 27 « The Exponent — April 27, 2008 @ 6:41 pm
thanks for the non-shaving info Chandelle - I love it. Seriously I wish I could flout that societal convention, but really I spend too much time in shorts & swimming suits. And I don’t hate shaving enough to be more comfortable having people see my, um how can I put it delicately, “bikini region” hair. I will honestly admit I have embraced “the patriarchy’s perception of beauty” when it comes to body hair. Just to be clear , I’m not saying my husband is part of that patriarchy, but the man is downstairs cleaning my kitchen right now & will soon be folding clothes, two things I hate to do even more than shaving. So I guess I can make that concession for him.
Comment by brittany — April 27, 2008 @ 9:50 pm
Thank you all for patiently explaining this whole patriarchy thing; I’m finally starting to get where you’re coming from (I can be pretty dense sometimes). But I’m still not sure how that could be changed or torn down (is that a goal of feminism?), especially when you consider that within the whole fashion/beauty industry food chain, so many women-owned businesses profit/benefit from it as well, weaving itself inseparably into our economy. How do you eliminate the guys at the helm without hurting all the folks downstream?
I realize that much of the socialization is regional. My middle daughter finished her last year of H.S. in San Diego (where I grew up), and made an interesting observation. She told us that the girls there we not like girls in Utah (County) where I now live (yeah, the Birchers get around!) — they dressed much more simply (typically just jeans and t’s), wore little to no make up, didn’t futz much with their hair (unlike the girls here in the hairspray capital of the world!), and, most surprising to her, the boys were, if anything, much more in pursuit of these girls than here in Utah. The girls enjoyed a great deal of attention there; the competition between women was much less intense. So, yeah, something’s definitely really wacked out here in Utah with the whole perceived glamor consciousness. My ex’s OBGYN told her that over 40% of his female patients in Utah county (which is 95% or so LDS) had implants. Funny, my ex just got implants recently too. I’m still scratching my head over that one…
Anyway, for the guys like me at the bottom of the food chain, we may or may not buy into the Hollywood/marketing hype of what constitutes “true beauty”. As individuals the tastes vary, and in the mating rituals we humans do, we are not so unlike peacocks or mallard ducks or other evolutionary by-products of sexual selection and attraction. It’s all about the mating game for most of us. And I honestly believe, as I originally stated, that there’s someone out there that will love you and desire you the way you are, especially if you make the best of what you’ve been given (ongoing education, pursuit and development of talents, eating right, staying fit, limiting sun exposure, living the gospel, etc.).
Comment by Rich — April 27, 2008 @ 11:44 pm
Good point. The whole modern goal of consumerism is to convince the buyer that what they have is not good enough. I’d love to see a car commercial that says, “Cars- If they get you from point A to point B, they’re good enough!” I guess one of the goals of feminism (and anti-consumerism) is to recognize the ridiculous notions these commercials are trying to perpetuate, and consciously reject them. Knowledge is the first step in change.
And I agree with you, Utah county is becoming more “California” than California.
Comment by sofia — April 28, 2008 @ 6:53 am
from emma goldman:
Merely external emancipation has made of the modern woman an artificial being. Now, woman is confronted with the necessity of emancipating herself from emancipation, if she really desires to be free.
Comment by chandelle — April 28, 2008 @ 6:59 am
As far as LDS women go, I too agree that Utah is more California than California - many of my friends who’ve gotten implants have actually done so in Utah b/c it’s cheaper. But I still don’t see many women in Utah with botoxed faces or gianormous breasts (implants, yes, just not p*rn star size). And Rich, it’s encouraging to hear a man say he is interested in the whole package b/c I think society often sends men the message they should only be interested in the outside of the package. It’s also nice to hear a man say he likes Pride and Prejudice!
Comment by brittany — April 28, 2008 @ 11:13 am
Mothers of daughters be aware of the message you send when you choose to have plastic surgery. It is time we accept our bodies even with all their post pregnancy imperfections. If we can be confident in ourselves, we teach our daughters to do the same. We need to begin to change the way we judge ourselves and hopefully society will follow our lead.
Comment by TR — April 29, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
sunshine - the problem with you shaving because it makes YOU feel good is that society has programmed you (and all of us) to feel good when we shave (and your husband has been programmed to like it)! i recently stopped shaving, and i feel nasty. but i continue to not shave because i hate that society has inculcated the idea in me that my leg hair is disgusting. its absurd.
i spend a lot of time thinking about feminist stuff, particularly how it relates to men. i think the answer is somewhere between rich and the idea that men caused all the problem (and receive all the benefit). yes, our society is framed from a masculine perspective and this is devastating to women from the time we’re babies. but its my opinion that this devastation wrought on women while perhaps resulting in monetary gains for men nevertheless harms men just as much because it harms families and destroys balance. a white powerful man may be happy sitting on all his money with a pile of manipulated, insecure women beneath him, but he is not learning and growing. the patriarchy is real, but it harms everyone.
one more question: if boob jobs are ok with the church, why can’t i get a tattoo? this is not meant to be judgy of women who get surgery; i just don’t see the difference (this is only in the case of purely cosmetic surgery, women who get it for pain, disfigurement, etc, are in a different category). and i would really like a tattoo.
Comment by kittyprez — April 29, 2008 @ 3:53 pm
brittany
I bought boy shorts swimsuit so I would never have to shave my bikini area again! I hate shaving with a passion on every level!
Comment by Melissa — April 29, 2008 @ 6:09 pm
kittprez,
good question. my bet would be that nobody goes to their bishop and asks if it’s okay to get plastic surgery.
Comment by chandelle — April 29, 2008 @ 6:58 pm
Sometimes I wish I lived in Africa, or the place where woman walk around topless with their boobs hanging down to their belly. Ironically, I think it is beautiful that they can do that, but weird.. so why should I worry so much about my saggy boobs? I don’t…because they look weird.
Comment by Sunshine — April 29, 2008 @ 7:09 pm
Maybe I am on the wrong site because I don’t blame everything on the patriarchy. I don’t blame everything on the men. I think power, no matter what kind can be abused…terribly abused. Be it women or men in power it can be abused. I don’t think everything is a power struggle and I am fine with the fact that men can do things that women can’t.
The excuse that shaving our legs is the ‘patriarchy’s’ fault just doesn’t fly with me because there are areas, cultures where shaving isn’t even an option, let alone do the men like it…so how then, would your argument still hold up? It’s this culture. This culture here in America. We are doing it to ourselves not patriarchy…I just don’t buy it. Show me more examples of it being the patriarchy and maybe..but we are all so interconnected. Women are making just as much money off of women and their desires to become more beautiful (or their perception of beautiful) as the men are, so just own the fact that we, as women, are partly to blame and I will leave the issue alone.
Comment by Sunshine — April 29, 2008 @ 7:18 pm
i agree precisely with sunshine that its this culture, its this culture’s patriarchy that has set up shaving as a sexual value. however i dont think you can just discount the patriarchal nature of it. the ideal of a hairless woman goes far back…do you see any greek female statues with pubic hair? many of the male statues have it. when lord byron (i think it was him) got married, he was so shocked and repulsed by his wife’s pubic hair, which he didn’t know women had, that they never consummated the marriage. luckily it was in the age of divorce and she was able to leave him and marry a young french painter. mmh.
anyway, im not saying that shaving is something men everywhere objectively like, and i think its very very important to recognize that men are NOT the only perpetrators of patriarchal sexism, just like women are not the only victims of it (and you are right, the whole basis of it is economic for both men and women…oo how deliciously marxist). however, i think it goes without saying that in our culture women are held to a much higher standard of beauty than men, and that standard is built around perceptions of what men find sexually attractive in women, some of them arbitrary and cultural but nevertheless true, like leg shaving. thus, shaving our legs is the patriarchal system’s fault.
Comment by kittyprez — April 30, 2008 @ 3:39 pm