Dear fMh, Is Sex better if You Wait? by doubleL
My husband and I have been married for two years. Neither of us were virgins when we got married but we did wait to have sex before our wedding in the temple. To be perfectly honest, not having sex with my husband before we got married might have been the hardest thing I’ve ever done and I felt like because we were able to wait, we would be given a perfect sex life-like God would give it to us as a gift because we’d earned it. Quite the opposite has happened. I have mixed memories of my honeymoon. The days were great but the nights were terrible because we could not seem to click.
Since our honeymoon, we have not been able to have sex consistently or arouse enough desire in ourselves to totally enjoy it. I have gone through so many stages of being angry that we waited (because when we were dating the sexual connection was there) to just saying that I am ok with not having sex.
I get afraid of thinking about having a family with my husband because I am worried it will just get worse. I’m also afraid that we may grow apart and one day not want to be together anymore. We have talked about this and I don’t think it’s just about communication. We’ve cried and wallowed; we have tried to do different things but we always just get right back to never having sex.
I love my husband more than anything. He is my light and my strength. Everyone who sees us together knows that we have this great love for each other but it’s killing me that we don’t have sex! All anyone talks about is how good it is to wait but they don’t tell you how to handle not “fitting” together after you’ve been married. Help me!
Just wondering out loud: Do you have any other stressors going on in your lives? Jobs? Finances? Family? Health issues? Unresolved family of origin issues?
I apologize if I’m coming across as arm-chair psychiatrist. I’m reflecting on my own experiences and know when DH and I are dealing with major issues and are totally stressed, sex is way low on our list of priorities.
My random thoughts, for what they’re worth.
Comment by Kalola — April 29, 2008 @ 10:45 am
Reality check - sex is not always better if you wait. Obstacles create passion and desire. Unfortunately, sometimes those obstacles lead to some serious guilt and can damage your sexual relationship in marriage. Trust me on this as a virgin husband (was definitely not easy) - the passion and desire slowly declines over time anyway. I’m not sure it would have been different either way.
Who is feeling the most unfulfilled? You, I assume? If you’re OK with not having sex, why is this a problem? Stats say that 1 in 3 people have a mixed libido marriage. In my case, I was the HL partner for the first few years. But I’m tired of getting duty sex and trying to make the stars align for my wife to desire being with me. And now, even though my sex drive is strong and I’m physically capable, I’m not really interested in being with my wife. Some reading for you…
Sex-Starved Wives
She’s Gotta Have It
Comment by Joe — April 29, 2008 @ 10:57 am
I agree with Kalola, outside stress throws me way off in this area. Mr. Eris and I were both virgins when we got married and it took years for us to “click” as you say. Luckily, we were both clueless that we weren’t “clicking” but I look back on it now and just laugh.
I personally went through a stage for about two years, after we had started a family and I was going to school, where I wanted to want to have sex, but just couldn’t make it happen. I felt horrible about it, but with some time, prayer (seriously helped to give the burden to someone else!), and learning to relax - both in the bedroom and out - things picked up.
Not an expert, but can definitely sympathize.
Comment by Eris — April 29, 2008 @ 10:57 am
This might not be totally applicable, because my husband and I were virgins when we married. But it took us about six years of marriage to really figure out how to satisfy each other consistently; however, we still struggle with unequal libidos.
I think that these sorts of problems happen in all marriages, not just ones where you wait. (A handful of times listening to Dr. Laura is enough to teach me that.)
I know its hard to hear, but this will probably be an ongoing struggle for a long time. Try finding some good books on married sexuality to read together. And if worst comes to worst, you could seek counseling.
But don’t give up hope. After almost ten years and 3 kids, we’re having better sex than ever.
Best wishes, and love.
Comment by Jocelyn — April 29, 2008 @ 11:00 am
What is this elusive “clicking”? Is he a Tuesday morning person while you are a Saturday evening kind of girl? Or is this more about technique than timing? Just confused…
Comment by Joe — April 29, 2008 @ 11:04 am
I think that one of the biggest misconceptions about sex is that it works totally smoothly for most people most of the time. Therefore, if you are having problems then there is something majorly wrong with you or your relationship. In fact, I think the opposite is true. Almost every couple is going to have times in their lives when they just don’t click. Whether it is when you first get married, when you start having kids, or when you start to age, it is going to happen sometime. So I wouldn’t despair about your relationship. Getting discouraged can often lead to a bad cycle. Things didn’t go well, you feel discouraged, things don’t go well because you are discouraged and frustrated, you have less sex, etc. I think that in these cases sometimes it just takes patience and continuing to try until things get better. Sometimes talking to a doctor and/or a counselor can help work through some of the frustration.
Comment by Meg — April 29, 2008 @ 11:07 am
I can relate to your struggle…I waited the first time I was married, and it was a miserable experience for a myriad of reasons that I wont go into here. I also waited the second time, and it was a little better, but my husband was a virgin, and had been so programmed that ’sex’ was bad, that it took us a couple of months before he was comfortable with it. I often wonder what would have happened had I not been programmed to make such a ‘big deal’ out of sex. I do think that had I given in beforehand, it would have been much more exciting due to the fact that it was ‘off limits’.
We’ve been married for 12 years and have had our ups and downs with sex…more downs than ups honestly, and right now, I feel like we’re in a phase where we’re not ‘fitting’…sometimes those phases have lasted years. BUT the biggest thing for us is that we adore each other, and we are committed to each other. The times when things have clicked for us are the times when there are not a lot of outside stresses, AND when we are really communicating with each other, even if those conversations are somewhat uncomfortable and awkward.
Best of luck to you!
Comment by Angie — April 29, 2008 @ 11:17 am
It sounds like you are putting way too much pressure on yourself, which is only going to hinder any ability to relax and enjoy what chemistry you do have in bed! I agree with the posts that say it is very common for these things to take time - even years, and that added pressure doesn’t help. It’s probably only because you were both ‘experienced’ lovers when you got married that this bothers you so much. Being virgins at marriage, we totally didn’t know what we were doing, so our expectations weren’t that high I guess lol. It was fun and exciting, but not ery passionate by any means. We’ve been married almost 8 years now and our love life is completely different. I don’t know if it was time, or just not caring that my body isn’t perfect - having kids can force you to come to terms with this hehe - but sex is better now than I ever thought possible! Give it time, and give yourself a break. Making it an expression of love rather than over-thinking the details might help you enjoy it more. I know it is frustrating, and all this advice might sound trite, but I hope it helps a little!
Comment by POM — April 29, 2008 @ 11:28 am
I don’t think it’s a good idea to simply give up on sex. This will just lead to growing frustration and resentment that will build over time.
Others have raised good points (as to whether there are other stressors in your lives, the fact that you weren’t virgins so perhaps had heightened expectations, etc.). I wonder if you can, delicately, disclose the fundamental nature of the problem. Is it a matter of mechanics or technique? Because those things can be learned with some patient teaching and gentle, constructive criticism.
I wonder whether you might benefit as a couple from seeing a sex therapist, assuming you could locate such a responsible professional in your area.
Comment by Kevin Barney — April 29, 2008 @ 11:51 am
I wasn’t a virgin, the husband was — and it’s hard sometimes. I had a reality view, he had a view that movies and media had programmed him with and we just didn’t click. Being on birth control hasn’t helped either — I have no libido and its starting to wear off onto him. We’re still newlyweds! I worry about our future family — but we do communicate great, even about sex, so I am hopeful.
Comment by Natalie — April 29, 2008 @ 11:52 am
My husband and I have had a lot of problems with different sex drives. It seems like it’s me that needs to change and he just always has to be patient and I feel bad for him. I was not a virgin when we got married and I sometimes am afraid that my low libido now is a consequence of my bad decisions before. It probably isn’t, and it certainly doesn’t make sense in a repentance kind of way, but I can’t help but think it sometimes. Maybe it’s just low self-esteem, which doesn’t help the sex issue either. But we keep working on it. We go through times of really wanting to work on our sex life and times of just not having sex for months on end. I guess the important thing is to not let this ruin everything else about your relationship and to not give up on the issue. Good luck!
Comment by Sympathetic — April 29, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
I was a virgin my husband wasn’t for the first few months sex was very uncomfortable. Foreplay great but actual intercourse was uncomfortable. I got a couple raging bladder infections but as time went by it got better and better. It is physically uncomfortable or is it lack of desire? Some medications lower sex drive stuff like antidepressants and somebody else said birth control does too. Berrykat
Comment by berrykat — April 29, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
WHAT ARE YOU TAKING ABOUT!
If you are saying that it is better to have sex before marriage than after you are crazy. The sex may be better before marriage but the intimacy is much greater if you wait. You won’t have to deal with the guilt and it will be fulfilling. Also if you are more worried about your partner than what you are about whether your needs are being fulfilled, then it will all work out. Intimacy is more than just intercourse and the sooner you figure that out the quicker you can have a very fulfilling intimate relationship. But the answer is not to give into your base desires before marriage. After 25 years of marriage and good and bad sex I think I can speak with some certainty
Comment by Bosley — April 29, 2008 @ 12:19 pm
doubleL: I would find a counselor immediately. As much as we love and rely on our spouses in non-sexual ways, as much as we know that sexual desire ebbs and flows over time, and that it isn’t our fault necessarily when it isn’t as strong, sexual expression is essential in a marriage for both partners. The emotional intimacy, the time spent trying to share and respond to your spouse’s feelings, the stress release are all vitally important in reinforcing the covenants you have made to your spouse.
Of course, the amount of sex varies from couple to couple, and is often unequal between partners. Frustration, pressure to perform, discouragement, etc. are all valid feelings when things don’t go right in the bedroom. I suspect it has something to do with the intensely emotional nature of sex: it forces us to share deep feelings and display what are normally private thoughts and desires in a way that is completely intrusive into one’s own space. The benefit to this acquiesence of autonomy, self-sufficiency, etc. connects us more profoundly to the person we share that with in much deeper ways, too.
Not being able to connect sexually as well as you would like may simply be the result of not knowing all the ways to connect (and I’m not talking about sexual technique). This doesn’t mean you are stupid, ignorant, or insensitive; only that you have not had exposure to, and sometimes even, permission to explore new ways to connect with a spouse (permission from spouse, from religious culture, etc.). That’s where a counselor can really help. Like Kalola said, there are sometimes external forces that inhibit intimacy, but there are also internal personality traits, preferences, skills, and other things that can inhibit as well. An expert outside of the relationship (and outside of the close circle of friendship or family) can more objectively provide constructive suggestions.
The stigma of counseling is evaporating. Although some people may feel embarrassed by it, most people I know could do well to have some counseling now and again, and many do. I’m open about the fact that my wife and I went through a period of counseling about some issues, including sex, and it helped dramatically. It’s not a cure-all; we still have ups and downs like anyone else, and we’ll probably find it appropriate to enter counseling again at some point in the future. But there’s no reason that the cycle of disappointment, self-deception (convincing yourself you don’t really need sex), crying, etc. needs to continue. Life’s to short to let things like this prevent you and your husband from experiencing it to its fullest.
Comment by Steve — April 29, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
I wasn’t a virgin when I got married. But I remember the first time I had se*, it was a great experience. But it was also forbidden. And that, I think, made it incredibly exciting. Now as I’m approaching (cough cough) my later youth years (ok, 40 years old), sex has been, for me, has been all things running the gamut of nonexistent to bad to great. But I’ll tell you this: The second you give up on sex and stop having it, the less you’ll miss it, and the more it will negatively effect your marriage. Sex is essential. It is EXTREMELY essential for me (for the most part– I know there are exceptions). When things go wrong in the bedroom, the essentially go wrong everywhere else. Physical intimacy is a vital component of a healthy, happy, and emotionally intimate relationship. For me, feeling good about myself is key in enjoying sex. When I feel fat, or tired, or ugly or in need of a shower, the thought of my husband touching me makes me cringe. The more I take care of myself, the better. Going to bed at a reasonable hour helps, too. If we get to bed too late, sex is just something we don’t have time for. Keeping things a bit risque in the bedroom helps both of us. Sexy lengerie, new positions, the kama sutra book, games for lovers, fun lotions… Try spicing it up. But whatever you do, make sure you don’t give up on sex.
Comment by Lulubelle — April 29, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
I think not having sex before you get married is a personal decision. But I think you need to realize that sex is hard for everyone at first. Whether or not you are married. It seems like religious expectations convince you to jump into sex right away instead of experimenting first and this can lead to tension and stress. If you look at sex as an expectation (honeymoon) than it can never be pleasurable. I think this is one of the problems with the way we raise LDS children into thinking that sex is naughty. Without any experimentation (even if that just means education) than sex can’t work.
Comment by Whitney — April 29, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
Bosley - sexuality is not a base desire. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the pinnacle of human expression. Are you “giving in” to your base desires when you’re with your spouse? I agree with you on sex vs. intimacy, but this is the kind of mentality that causes major issues for LDS boys and girls…
Comment by Joe — April 29, 2008 @ 12:26 pm
My husband and I are much in the same boat (though we did have sex before marriage). When we were “kids” sex was great. We went through a few year separation, got back together, and since then? Not so much. Now it’s just a frustrating topic for both of us. (((hugs))) to you.
Comment by Meg — April 29, 2008 @ 12:28 pm
My husband was a virgin when we married, not only for intercourse but for basically everything - he’d only kissed one girl in his life and it was 7 years before we got married. I was essentially an intercourse virgin but experienced in everything else. We had mismatched libidos for the first few years of marriage and that was really hard. He’d waited so long to have sex, to have any intimacy at all, and then he had to be constantly very patient with me, and not approach me but instead let me come to him when I wanted it; I can’t be seduced. Birth control also screwed me up entirely, so I went off of it a few months into our marriage and that helped. My husband is 5 years older than me and as he’s gotten older, my sex drive (and comfort level) has increased while his drive has decreased a bit, so we’re more evenly matched now and sex is much more comfortable. Another thing we’ve both realized is that my desire is largely dependent on my cycle; we have lots of sex during the week when i ovulate, but it’s spare for the rest of the month. He’s learned to adjust to that and we’re both happier knowing that we’ll have one fun week and the rest of the time it might happen, or it might not, but it’s okay either way.
It’s quite simplistic to assume that if you wait, god will reward you with a great sex life, just as it’s simplistic to assume that you’ll be punished in some way if you don’t wait. Sex is an extremely complicated issue. Your bedroom issues are very common; I can think of several friends right off the top of my head who have serious differences in libido, little or no interest in one or the other, pain, medical disorders, psychological discomfort, anorgasmia, and a multitude of other problems.
It’s very difficult to make any suggestions without knowing more of the specifics of your case. Is it a lack of desire, for one or both? Is it a problem of technique or timing? Is there an abuse history on either side? What do you mean that you can’t “click”?
I studied sexuality extensively in college and beyond and I want to tell you that many couples are happily celibate, whether by accident or design. Sometimes sex just doesn’t work for some people and that’s okay. Many couples also have regular periods of intentional celibacy, and they often report that their sex lives improve when they break their sex fast. The real question is whether you are unhappy with your lack of sex life because you really want one or because you think you should have one. If you both are happy being intimate in other ways, it’s okay, REALLY, if you guys just don’t have sex very often. All this pressure is not going to help your difficulties.
A little more light cast on your specific issues would be helpful, if you are willing.
Comment by anonforthisone — April 29, 2008 @ 12:29 pm
I’m with Kevin, if you are comfortable sharing more details you should so we can better direct the advice.
You said you were not a virgin. Did you enjoy sex previously? Is this clicking problem exclusive to your husband? Is it timing? Is it technique? Is it lack of sexual attraction towards each other? What changed to the attraction before the marriage and after the marriage?
I get so frustrated hearing these stories. I feel strongly that a healthy sex life is critical to a healthy marriage. The female body is designed to be multi-orgasmic, so your potential to enjoy sex is actually greater than a male! I sure hate to see lost potential.
I have found that nearly all sexual problems can be overcome with a little bit of education, patience and a positive attitude.
Big green hugs,
Froggie - who likes sex first, chocolate next, and in the best of all words………chocolate and sex at the same time
Comment by Froggie — April 29, 2008 @ 12:29 pm
The sex may be better before marriage but the intimacy is much greater if you wait. You won’t have to deal with the guilt and it will be fulfilling.
I don’t believe that across the board statements like these are helpful. You can speak from your own experiences, but the experience of sexuality is very different for everyone. I have several friends, for example, who had sex before marriage and feel disappointed because their married sex is so unfulfilling in comparison, whereas others feel that the safety of marriage makes sex much more satisfying. It’s different for everyone. And referring to the experience of sexuality as “base” is quite disappointing and negative as well, not to mention incorrect for many people who feel that experiencing sensual ecstasy with another person is an expression of their higher selves.
Comment by anonforthisone — April 29, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
Joe you are right. I misspoke when I said “base desire” but because it is the “pinnacle of human expression” as you called it, most of our lds boys and girls aren’t mature enough to know the consequences of pre-marital sex and expressing that human expression. So I feel that abstinence is still best before marriage
Comment by Bosley — April 29, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
I am glad a few people have mentioned birth control. Guest, could that be an issue? My husband and I waited until after we were were married, but I felt “on fire” with desire for him before we were married, and not so much by the time we got married. It was frustrating. I am positive it is the birth control I started two months before marriage that messed me up because sex has gotten better over time (particularly in the few months I have not been pregnant or nursing), and when I did go back on the same pills I had used years before, I had zero desire. None whatsoever. I wish I had realized that when we were newlyweds. I am grateful I have a patient husband.
Comment by Stephanie — April 29, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
Having sex before getting married isn’t any sort of solution.
It just means that the premarital sex is going to suck instead of the marital sex.
But now you’ve got the added baggage of wondering whether this guy really cares about you and is committed to you, or whether he’s going to be gone in 3 months moving on to a different girl.
A better solution is to prepare yourself emotionally to connect with your husband, and maybe read up on a couple good how-to books on the subject.
Comment by Seth R. — April 29, 2008 @ 1:13 pm
Birth control took a toll on our sex life at first too. But once I got off the pill (hallelujah!) and we had some time to practice, things got a lot better.
Comment by Racheldmc — April 29, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
this is a good place to start for any couple getting married. there’s no reason why you can’t discuss sex before marriage. if it’s ok to discuss kids, finances, even buy a house together during your engagement, it makes sense to talk about little things like 0ral sex, possible boundaries, and reading good books together- complete with pictures (in a complete clinical sense here guys. i know many of you might be offended because you consider that p*rn) if you can’t discuss it and actually get an idea of the “goings on” than how are you going to magically come together after you are married and the stress of married life sets in?
oh the expectations we put on ourselves and our SO’s to just know what to do because we think it’s natural and we love each other. if you want to know how to do something, you have to research it.
oh and that applies to the newly married or old-ly married folks too.
good luck!
Comment by mfranti — April 29, 2008 @ 1:35 pm
Chiming in on the birth control chain: messed me up too. (Considering that it turns out we can’t have kids, I’m rather bitter at those nasty pills in retrospect.) Nothing like a HUGE hormonal upheaval at the same time as a major life change to mess with the old libido.
I’m extremely glad we waited, nonetheless. The only other thing in marriage (besides stuff like one member being gay, exhaustion, other stuff people have already covered) which I can see curtailing sexual desire is the pressure to be perfect for your spouse (and yourself). There’s no “well, if we don’t have the sexual mojo, we can always split up” thing at the forefront. I’m no therapist either, but it does seem like if you really want to be someones sexual end-all-be-all and you want them to be yours, you could be setting your expectations so high that the libido inversely crashes out of stress (picture libido as frantic guy dodging around furniture and looking for a place to hide before somebody asks him to impersonate Atlas).
Comment by Janet — April 29, 2008 @ 1:43 pm
Wow. I didn’t know they would post this or that I would get so many responses. Thank you!
Well, wear to begin. You asked for more detail… I could write a novel. My husband and I have gone over ANYthing that could be the cause of our (mutual) lack of desire and the main ones we have decided on are:
First- We got pretty close to “messing up” before our wedding and it scared us both pretty bad. We both worked hard from that point on to turn off our desires. We are afraid it carried over to our wedding night and we don’t know how to turn back on.
Second- Our first time didn’t work, mechanically. We were completely nervous and completely threw out foreplay. Literally, I took my clothes off, he took his clothes off and nothing happened (of course! we know now that it never would’ve worked that way). It really messed with my husbands ego that he couldn’t get aroused and it made the honeymoon practically sexless (we had sex once after we cried and prayed which I hope isn’t our foreplay forever).
Third- and this is mostly me, I am afriad, like #11 Sympathetic said, that I am being punished because I have been with many guys and done many bad things.
Fourth- We have both gained weight since we got married and think that we are either: a- unattracted to each other any more but that just depresses me so much or b- the weight is taking away our drives.
So at first it was mechanics but that has been worked out and now it is just desire. Thanks again for such a supportive response everyone.
Comment by Guest poster — April 29, 2008 @ 1:48 pm
PS: No birth control. I go crazy emotional and have never survived a realtionship once I got on birth control so I opted for the IUD (non hormonal).
Comment by Guest poster — April 29, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
I agree with Joe on the differential libido issue.
I’m convinced that polyandry is a pretty normal biological phenomenon for human females. That’s why male semen coagulates–to prevent a subsequent male’s semen from fertilizing the egg. I like to call it the “Anna Karenina Phenomenon.”
Comment by Doctor Jane — April 29, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
Sorry pss
I have absolutely NO regrets about waiting. I think it is the best decision I EVER made. Even knowing that sex was going to be my struggle in marriage (and with my track record I was not expecting it) I would not change a thing. My question wasn’t if I should’ve waited but why it didn’t work even though I waited.
My last ps, I swear.
Comment by Guest poster — April 29, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
My husband could do it 5 times a day and about once a week is fine for me. I have noticed that if we actually do it 3-4 times a week, he is more relaxed, I feel like I love him more and things are better. I have to sort of make myself get into the mood. At times, this may sound weird, but I have prayed to find him more attractive that way. I figure it’s a righteous request. I also feel that church training messed me up. Your entire life you hear, it’s bad it’s bad, and then after a small ceremony, it’s all, knock yourselves out. That’s weird. I am going to try really hard with my girls not to focus on things being a sin, but how better it is to wait, how that’s how it’s supposed to be, not that things are evil. FWIW, hubby was my first, he wasn’t a member, I wasn’t his first. Did make things a bit easier.
Comment by LCM — April 29, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
I think Seth nailed it (no pun intended), most people I know say sex improved the more they had it. It doesn’t matter if you start at fifteen or after you’re married, you and your partners are both going to get better at it and figure out what works best in the bedroom. In certain cultures (ours included) I think the added pressure to make this first time an almost holy experience certainly doesn’t help things.
I get embarrassed thinking about the first little while in our marriage, I had no idea what I was doing, or even knew enough to know what I was doing wasn’t working for my wife. People that do wait should be given an instruction manual (something my wife has given as wedding presents), so they can become comfortable quickly.
Sex is better than ever now, because we talk about it and figured out what works best and is most comfortable for the two of us. Don’t give up.
Comment by jjohnsen — April 29, 2008 @ 2:00 pm
This is such an important topic, especially for mormons!! I commend you for bringing it up, especially in such a hush hush culture as ours (LDS).
First I’d like to say that my experience was very similar to yours. I really liked what you said about “waiting” and how you felt that one of the blessings of waiting meant that you would have a great sex life with this person you stayed clean with. I feel the same way and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “You’ll be much happier if you don’t spoil it before marriage”.. blah blah blah. The truth is that lovers are made, not born.
When we were dating, my husband and I made several trips to the bishop because we couldn’t keep our hands off each other. I never felt guilty in the situation, but when I got into the bishop’s office I felt terribly bad. It just seemed like I would be so much happier if we could just enjoy our intimacy naturally instead of waiting for the marriage institution to take place. This is how I felt.. I know and believe that temple marriage is a great blessing, but that wasn’t what I FELT at the time.
We stayed on track for a temple wedding, and I went on birth control in preparation for our marriage. I have to say it was THE WORST THING that I ever did… I had NO LIBIDO…. It was great for before the marriage so that we could keep our hands off each other, but I had no desire after we were married.
In fact, (GASP)… My husband and I have been married for 2 1/2 years and have not had intercourse yet ( thank goodness for other things to do:):)). There are several reasons- First I had VAGINISMUS… which I had NO IDEA I had until I traumatically found out on my wedding night(Vaginismus is an involuntary tightening of muscles in and around the vagina making penetration excruciating or impossible). It can often happen to young women like me who were virgins brought up to believe sex was bad. So even on my wedding night, I couldn’t physically “switch” from the RED LIGHT to the GREEN LIGHT.
On top of that I had the libido killing birth control pill. So for the first year of marriage, my husband and I were in and out of counseling. It was so traumatic, especially for a girl who was brought up to believe that girls marry virgin RM’s in the temple and live in blissful harmony for the duration of earthly existence. We suffered in silence- how could I tell anyone? For that same reason you mentioned- if we were worthy we were suppose to have a great sex life after marriage. If anyone knew, then who knows what they would think of me.
This is precisely the kind of psychological problem that occurs in so many women raised in a conservative religion. Someday we’ll have babies- what will I tell my daughter someday? To wait until marriage? I had such an awful experience, I don’t even know what to tell her. If only I had known about Vagnismus- and birth control before my marriage so that my first year wasn’t full of disappointment and sadness.
Now my husband and I are becoming more in sync. It took us a while, but we get closer and closer everyday to having a normal healthy sex life, essentially unlearning 20 years of bad programming on behalf of sex.
I believe that sex is something that you perfect, and that you work on with your partner, no matter how difficult. Like someone said earlier, if you ignore sex, you’ll never want to do it. THe more you have sexual relations, the more you’ll want to, and the easier it is to overcome your sexual issues with your partner (assuming you are both understanding of what each other need).
Though my experience was extremely heartbreaking and traumatic, I’m sure that similar issues occur in other situations where sex was had before marriage. It was just difficult for me to believe I made the right choice in marrying my husband after we had so many problems… all AFTER we were married. Now I realize that commitment is the most important thing and that it applies to all levels of your marriage. That means you are committed to making your sex life work, just like other areas of your life.
Comment by Friend — April 29, 2008 @ 2:01 pm
it was too good of a discussion topic to ignore. so thank you!
Comment by mfranti — April 29, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
Have you tried a sex therapist? Sex is/can be an amazing connection with a another person. Does anyone of you have any hangups/baggage that you are nor dealing with?
Comment by jonmiranda — April 29, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
I would say that my husband struggles with not having what society sees as the typical male sex drive and it hurts him. But I don’t think therapy would work for us for reasons I’m not going to go into but trust me that it isn’t the path we want to explore.
Comment by Guest poster — April 29, 2008 @ 2:16 pm
Guest,
Therapy isn’t easy for anyone. No one WANTS to go to therapy really. It has such a stigma. Just like society’s stigma on sex drives like your husbands. Both stigmas are useless. Those who can benefit the most from therapy are those who refuse to go.
Comment by Jess — April 29, 2008 @ 2:52 pm
I would like to second a few of what posters above said:
1. First, I think it would’ve been really weird to go from not experiementing and staying on the very conservative end of “chaste” (i.e. no heavy petting, etc) and then going to “se*” all in just a few hours. How can anyone have a happy se* life? What will I teach my daughter as she gets older? I have no idea! I don’t want to teach her it’s wrong wrong wrong, sin sin sin, abstain abstain abstain. But I don’t want to give her the impression she should start sleeping around either. This will be an interesting dilemma for me. (HERE’s a future POST suggestion: How are we teaching our kids about se* as they grow up?”)
2. Seriously– the more se* I get, the more I want it, crave it and need it. I made a promise to myself that I would basically never turn my husband down for se* (unless I was sick) and I would initiate se* at times even if I didn’t want it. The result? We have it a LOT, like 5-6 times/week. The more I’ve given, the better we are together. We laugh more, treat eachother better, are more affectionate, and basically, just enjoy each other more because life in the bedroom is really active.
3. When my last marriage came to an end, the thought of se* was revolting to me. I went nearly three years with almost no se* (like maybe 2 times only in three years). Not sure which came first but the lack of se* in our relationship was a strong signal that it was OVER. When I rediscovered se*, it was amazing, fun, exciting and I felt young and se*y and desirable again. There’s nothing better than having a lot of great, fun, unhurried se*. It’s bliss.
Comment by Lulubelle — April 29, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
Time to plug “The Act of Marriage” again. My wife and I give it as a wedding present to couples we know really well.
And be aware… sex is also an emotional thing for a guy. It’s not just “wow! see boobies! thrust! orgasm!” If a guy feels judged or like his wife is upset with him, it can just take all the wind out of it. Also, if the guy is a decent guy he’ll also likely have a hard time if he thinks you’re uncomfortable.
So really, it’s just hard to “get it up” if you don’t feel like you’re wife isn’t enjoying herself. Pressure doesn’t help either.
Really, this is one of those areas where you’re just going to have to jettison the expectations. So what if you don’t “make it” tonight? Big deal. You’ve got plenty of nights ahead of you - what’s one more without an orgasm? Same as last night right? So it’s not like you’ve lost anything. Fool around and have fun with it. If you feel stupid, go ahead and laugh about it. You do look silly - most people do naked (which incidentally is why most people who’ve tried it recommend against using camcorders in the bedroom - don’t go there).
But quit trying to have a “great experience” and just enjoy your time together for what it is. Dress up in something special and DO NOT get all disappointed when it doesn’t lead to intercourse or ends in another letdown. At least you got some snuggling in right? What’s wrong with that? Nothing - that’s what.
Because let me tell you, nothing kills libido for a guy quicker than the feeling that he’s letting his wife down. So being disappointed is not really productive.
As hard as it may be to hear this, the best thing you could do for your marriage is to accept today - right now - that this really is “as good as it gets.” Once you do that, you’ll be able to ditch all the expectations and baggage that you’ve loaded on this relationship, enjoy it for what it is now (not what it might be later), and actually grow together as husband and wife.
The sex will naturally sort itself out much easier once you make peace with the possibility that it might not ever get better, and that’s OK.
Comment by Seth R. — April 29, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
Birth control pills are evil… except for during the engagement - THAT is when they should be taken, and life would have been so much easier… They sure work as contraceptives, but not in the way one might think..
And then one needs to stop taking them before the wedding, and use something non-hormonal. Isn’t that funny… I’ll never again eat those pills, I’ve never been so weird in my life as during those 3 months I took them. Terrible time. It’s interesting to hear that so many had those symptoms, and even more interesting that those rather significant side-effects never were mentioned when getting them. Grr. Thanks for the topic, this is a good setting and perspective to have it in.
It IS definitely better if you wait, if you take time for it, not have any expectations and if you make sure to only care about the other person (i.e. not yourself). Experimentation, honesty and humour helps a lot too. Step #1 is to never use those awful pills though.
Comment by polaris — April 29, 2008 @ 3:04 pm
Hey! I have had a really similar experience. i got married a year ago and also felt a huge dip in sex drive. the paradox was that everything was so hot before we got married, just like you said. things have been slowly improving, but its different every time. sometimes im full of anxiety and tell him just to go for it while i mentally sit it out. sometimes im totally into it.
i think part of the problem IS fooling around before marriage, but not in the normal sense. i dont think its so fundamentally awful because of what it is, but i think it changes the way we think of sex, especially if your first experiences are guilt ridden but hot. the guilt and the hot get tied together in ways they maybe should’nt be. i don’t think that god would punish you by making married sex bad, but i think it tends to make forbiddenness a part of sex in our minds, and when its not forbidden anymore, its not nearly as hot. we have to train ourselves to think of sex in different ways, and every person has a different way.
advice: this is hard for mormons sometimes, but maybe you should work out some fantasies in your heads that turn each of you on? it doesn’t have to be other guys (but it could be…whatever you are comfortable with), it can just be a situation (ha you could even pretend you’re not married again!) we’re taught that fantasies are bad or mean sex isn’t working, but for me they are a good way of figuring out what i like or don’t, and learning to be comfortable in an uncomfortable situation. you don’t have to tell each other yours either if it makes you uncomfortable.
Comment by kittyprez — April 29, 2008 @ 3:07 pm
Guest, you should really read (and have him read) the articles I posted in #2. Men with lower desire are not uncommon. The oversexed man is just a myth spread by Hollywood and beer commercials. It’s amazing how women immediately jump to the conclusion that their guy is either gay or having an affair is he’s uninterested.
Comment by Joe — April 29, 2008 @ 3:09 pm
This is a bit of a threadjack, so I’ll apologize in advance. But, with my experience with birth control pills and hearing so many other women who had the same problems (not just lack of libido but whacked out emotions and anger), I can’t figure out why some people think it would be a good idea to give them to teenage girls as a form of contraception. With all the fluctuations of hormones and emotions that teen girls experience naturally, it seems that the last thing they would need is an artificial surplus to add to the mix.
Comment by Stephanie — April 29, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
Could one of the fMh permas email me? I’ve tried to figure out your contacts page, and I give up. I can’t get an email to go through.
Comment by Seth R. — April 29, 2008 @ 3:48 pm
I am guessing you have already done this, but have you gotten a blessing. Not a blessing of comfort, but one of healing? To me, this seems to be affecting you on a level well above emotion, so perhaps a belssing of healing would be useful (and you can share as much or as little with those you trust).
I also want to agree that foreplay might be a good tool here. Agree to mess around but don’t initiate or expect sex. See how far you can go without the actual act, and maybe it will lesson the stress.
Even in non-LDS situations, sex after marraige can be frustrating. I remember reading an article years ago that suggested not having sex on the actual night of your wedding because you would be so tired and the failure might be hard to recover from. So, for me, I am looking forward more to the morning after the wedding than the night itself.
Comment by Melissa S. — April 29, 2008 @ 3:49 pm
I took BC pills as a teenager (to clear up my skin) and I had no problems with them at all. In fact, I really felt that they balanced my hormones and made me more emotionally stable. It was only when I started using them as an adult that they threw me out of whack. I didn’t have the anger or overemotionality that others mentioned, but my libido did go straight into the toilet. It is interesting that such an effect is almost never spoken of - it blows me away that so many women here experienced that as well.
Comment by anonforthisone — April 29, 2008 @ 3:50 pm
I remember reading an article years ago that suggested not having sex on the actual night of your wedding because you would be so tired and the failure might be hard to recover from.
Great idea! We didn’t expect anything special and even made a deal that we wouldn’t expect to have intercourse right away. A 25-year-old male virgin shouldn’t be expected to perform amazingly well at first, so I didn’t expect it. We actually did have sex the first night, and it wasn’t great, but we weren’t disappointed; we knew it would improve, and it definitely did, especially once we figured out that I had a sensitivity to his semen.
Comment by anonforthisone — April 29, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
I don’t understand why so many of you taking the pill experienced decreased libido. I’ve honestly never heard of that. I took the pill for years while I was single and I had a very very healthy libido during that entire time. Maybe try different birth control pills?
One of the hottest nights of se* my husband and I had was on vacation recently. I told him I was not giving him se* no matter what but we could just “fool around.” It was the funnest experience ever and I finally “gave in”. It felt naughty and totally erotic and it just happened when neither of us could stand waiting another moment. And it felt somewhat spontaenous, too. My point is- have FUN! Experiment.
When I had se* for the first time (not married), one of the reasons it was also so fun (even for a first time) was because I/we didn’t plan to hae se* that night. It just, oops, happened. When you’ve saved se* for marriage, it just doesn’t “happen”. It’s like “ok, we’re married now, let’s do it.” I can imagine that for many, that has to be a weird, frightening, high pressure event. I’m not saying it’s the wrong way to do it (actually, it’s the best scenario) but is has to lead to (for many) not the best se* ever. Just knowing that would help alleviate some of the expectations and anxiety, I would imagine.
Comment by Lulubelle — April 29, 2008 @ 3:56 pm
I don’t want this to sound insensitive, but have you ever asked your husband what really turns him on? And has he asked you the same? And have you both taken the time to allow yourselves to figure that out? The sight of a naked woman is enough for many men, but not all. Silly answers that focus on purely spiritual, metaphysical, or idealized images of a spouse aren’t what I’m talking about here. Perhaps it’s an outfit, perhaps its a certain hair color. Perhaps its suggestive dancing. Perhaps its seductive music. Perhaps its breasts. Perhaps its feet. Perhaps its making love in the morning, outside, other places, etc. Who knows. What matters is figuring out what you like, and what he likes. That takes thought, time, and experimentation. Cheers.
Comment by Steve — April 29, 2008 @ 4:03 pm
A lot of great advice already! I just wanted to add that
1) you can overcome this
2) don’t beat yourselves up about it!
Sex is a part of life and it is wonderful, but don’t let this one aspect of your relationship ruin your life together! Continue to work on it and talk to each other, but live your life in the meantime!!
Hang in there!
Comment by Barb — April 29, 2008 @ 4:05 pm
[…] FMH: Is sex better if you wait? […]
Pingback by More bloggernacle posts about sexuality « The Visitors’ Center — April 29, 2008 @ 4:11 pm
Sounds like you haven’t seen me around those parts for years.
Link.
Comment by Colonel Angus — April 29, 2008 @ 4:27 pm
I feel as though someone else posted my thoughts! My husband and I have been married for a year now and our sexual experience (or lack thereof) is very similar. It’s comforting to find out I am not alone. Thanks for the feedback about contraceptive pills. I just stopped taking them in order to try to revive my libido. I’m starting to see a light at the end of the tunnel.
Comment by NewBride2 — April 29, 2008 @ 4:35 pm
whoa! i don’t remember that particular skit…”anal angus!” yikes!
Comment by chandelle — April 29, 2008 @ 4:57 pm
I love my wife with all of my heart. Even though we are also struggling with sexual intimacy, I am grateful to know Heavenly Father’s plan. I am grateful to know that there is opposition in all things. I am also grateful to know that if we continue to move forward in faith, we will be blessed eternally.
Can anyone share what helped keep your faith/hope up during a trial such as this?
Comment by a loving husband — April 29, 2008 @ 5:35 pm
LOVE this post. Ok below could very well be TOO MUCH INFORMATION but I had to share what worked for us.
I was the most hormonal 28 year old virgin in the world when we got married- so I expected things to take off smoothly, I thought I was going to love the sex.
I hated sex. I got an UTI every single time we had it- and you know what kind of hell that is.(trying to fall asleep on the toilet with your head proped up against the toilet paper roll is a challenge and a feat!) 2 years later things are great between us and here is how I transformed:
1- Practice makes perfect. My husband told me it was bad, I knew it was bad but we kept at it.
2- Flirting all day long. We started making sexual inuendos and jokes with each other. I started telling him how sexy he was, or if he bent over I’d slap his bottom- even sending him a hot text message (be careful with that one)
3- Pretend you’re still dating. This may sound very weird but sometimes I pretend we’re still dating and we’re being ‘naughty’ bizarre- but it works
4- Foreplay, foreplay, foreplay! All those things you weren’t supose to do when you were dating DO THEM! You need the build up to the main act.
5- Get the IUD. It changed our sex life and my hormones.
6- Change your underwear. Having sexy underwear on after work is a great way to let your husband know you’re ‘up for it’- and it will help to put you in the mood as well.
I’m not saying these are cure-alls- but they worked for me.
Comment by salt h2o — April 29, 2008 @ 5:37 pm
Friend - this is exactly what I hear from most of my Mormon friends (I was raised in Utah) about their sex lives. Two people get married and then on the wedding night are supposed to have intercourse right away without much leading up to it. I know in my experience, I wasn’t ready for sex right away. It took a lot of other things to get me ready both physically and mentally. When there is expectations of sex on your wedding night it seems like everyone I know has a bad experience. This coupled with all the people around you (all those girls at your wedding shower, for example) expecting to you to suddenly change your entire outlook on sex. This seems to lead to the silence that everyone has been talking about. We’re raised, as Mormons, to fear and resent sex. We’re taught as girls, however subconsciously, that women are supposed to be the “gate keepers” who keep overactive boys from “violating” them. Boys are taught that all of their fantasies and experiments are wrong and should only be shared with one person in marriage. How is it a surprise to anyone, then, when sex after marriage is frequently difficult or even impossible?
I am not married yet and don’t have children, but I hope that I will be open to my children’s questions and try not to judge their desires the way members of our community continually do.
Comment by Whitney — April 29, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
#34- I would love to email with you! My husband and I have been married for about 16 months. Right before we got married I found out that I had a large ovarian cyst and was told to not have sex until after the surgery. I had surgery 4 days after we were married and one of my ovaries was removed. The doctor swore it wouldn’t affect me in any permanent way blah blah blah…had I any idea of what it would be like! I went back on BC after the surgery to decrease the endo pain and eventually went off BC b/c I had absolutely NO libido whatsoever. The thought of my husband touching me in intimate places made my skin crawl (no, I have never been abused and I was certainly looking forward to sexual intimacy when we were engaged. It was after my ovary was removed that I couldn’t stand it). I had another surgery 6 months after the first and had the endo completely gone from my body. But my libido has never returned. We’ve consulted a well-known endocrinologist and his advice was to meet my husband at the door in a trench coat and heels, never once listening to me that this is something medical/physical. I have tried everything that I can think of to get turned on and the only time I get close is the peak day during ovulation. My husband and I have not had intercourse either and recently (like 2 weeks ago) I heard of vaginismus and am beginning to wonder if I have it. So, #34, if you have any advice on how to work through it, I would love to know!
My husband feels so let down—all his life he was told that if he kept himself clean before marriage then sex would be wonderful and beautiful and spiritual. And then he gets married and his wife can’t get turned on and they don’t have intercourse. Let’s just say that I have done a little reading on Abrahamic trials….
We’ve talked about going to a sex therapist but every MD we have seen so far has been SO insensitive and is SO sure that it’s “between my ears” that I am so hesitant to trust any doctor or therapist at this point. I can definitely empathize with this post!
Comment by noname — April 29, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
oops- I just realized you’re on the IUD, smart girl.
There really is a lot of good advice here.
some last pieces of advice:
1- Talk about it with your girlfriends.
2- Talk about it with your husband AFTER you’ve had sex not before.
3- Sex is addictive. I promise the more you have it the more you want it.
4- If your relationship is as good as you say it is- you’ll be fine. Just give it a bit of time.
5- Read books about this subject. Lots of books.
Comment by salt h2o — April 29, 2008 @ 5:50 pm
Is sex better (than what)?
I waited 24+ years until I got married (and even a few days after that). My husband has never, I’ve never… our sex history only contains us. It’s all quite awesome. Money, kids, paying the bills, that’s tough, having great sex, no problem.
I am so glad I have nothing to compare it to, nothing to compare each other with and content to believe he’s the most awesome lover on the entire planet. I completely endorse waiting!
Comment by Sabine — April 29, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
If I’ve overstayed my welcome, you just tap me on the head.
Comment by Colonel Angus — April 29, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
Just wanted to chime in and say that waiting certainly didn’t affect our sex life. Yes, sex is better now than it was on our wedding night, but we knew it would be that way. I was very innocent and it was all so awesome and new for me. I had nothing to compare it to. My husband was a widower, though, so he knew what he was doing.
He was so reassuring when we were engaged and I told him I was worried about being a novice. He said, “It’s not what you do, it’s who you’re with.” And it’s so true!
FWIW I’m not mormon (I’m Christian and was raised very conservatively, though, and I wore a promise ring and having sex before marriage just wasn’t an option for me).
Comment by Swan — April 29, 2008 @ 6:52 pm
Sex is addictive. I promise the more you have it the more you want it.
This is not true for everyone. Believe me, I’ve tried it.
Comment by anonforthisone — April 29, 2008 @ 6:54 pm
I guess there is no way of knowing if sex is better if you wait. If you wait, you will have no idea if it would have been better if you hadn’t, if you don’t wait, you have no idea if it would have been better if you had.
I second the idea that practice makes perfect (or at least much, much better). Seeing a counselor might help too.
But in the end, I hope that you aren’t regretting waiting. You did the right thing, and while you aren’t receiving the blessing of an amazing sex life right now, I have no doubt that your faithfulness will bring you blessings in the long run.
Comment by Tammy — April 29, 2008 @ 7:43 pm
Someone above alluded to a point that I feel needs to be made more clearly. Are you trying to do this in your garments? It’s pretty tough to feel sexy or get aroused in gunny sacks like that. Put on some different underwear…
Comment by Kevin Barney — April 29, 2008 @ 7:55 pm
I think we as a culture suffer greatly from lack of sex education. My husband and I have had major trouble with sex because of my endometriosis and the chronic pain it gives me, particularly during penetration, so we’ve been forced to break a few taboos we were raised with knowing that as long as we were both totally game and it didn’t involve anyone but us, we were good to go. So many women I knew at BYU felt that anything other than the missionary position was a sin. If that were true, we’d be forced to be totally celibate.
I’m a total podcast junkie, and I while back I started listening to the Savage Love Cast by Dan Savage. He is a sex advice columnist based in Seattle. He’s totally profane, hilarious, and practical. I grew up in an inactive family and thought that I was completely unsheltered, and yet I’ve learned so MUCH! I’d definitely give him a hard R for content, but it’s not as titillating as you’d think. He is gay, feels like non-monogamous marriages are the way to go, uses the F word constantly, discusses totally kinky behavior, and usually recommends ending relationships with mismatched libidos, so be warned. I listen to his podcasts knowing that I’m going to disagree with a lot of his conclusions, but I learn a ton through the process.
I would definitely recommend listening to it, with your own values firmly in mind, to anyone who feels they could benefit from a sex counselor but can’t afford it/ doesn’t have one nearby. If nothing else, I think there’s great comfort that comes from realizing that everyone has sex issues. Whether you marry as a virgin or sleep with anyone you want. Television conditions us to think that it’s easy, but that is just not the norm for anyone.
Comment by reese — April 29, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
Oh reese, I love Dan! I read his column Savage Love in the Chicago Reader. Great stuff, even though most Mormons’ eyes would blow up for reading it.
Comment by Kevin Barney — April 29, 2008 @ 8:27 pm
NoName-I cannot speak about the sexual aspect of things, but I can speak with the medical aspect. If you know something is wrong, listen to yourself and keep consulting doctors until you find someone who can help. I have some health problems and that is the best piece of advice I have ever been given. You are not crazy and your doctor doesn’t know you better than you know yourself.
Comment by Tanya Sue — April 29, 2008 @ 9:03 pm
Guest-I haven’t had sex, so I cannot give you first had experience (single here).
One thing I have heard that helps can be to try to follow some of the rules you did before you were married. Don’t do anything but make-out. Touchy feeling is out of the quesiton. And I mean follow this for weeks and see if you can develop a different progression of things moving forward so that you aren’t pressured into moving forward with things. Just enjoy kissing, etc. I have heard (like I said, no first hand experience) that it can help build the drives and desires back up. As humans we generally want what we cannot have.
Comment by Tanya Sue — April 29, 2008 @ 9:06 pm
Experts estimate that somewhere between 5-10% of women on the birth control pill will have a drop in libido, something about a protein that binds the testosterone and estrogen.
If it really is low libido, I’d recommend you get your hormone levels tested by your doctor. Low testosterone equals low libido.
Good luck!
Big green hugs,
Froggie
Comment by Froggie — April 29, 2008 @ 9:09 pm
#59 noname - I would love to talk! It’s so important to know that we are not alone and that we are not surrounded by mormons having amazing sex lives while ours is nonexistent. I have an “anonymous” email- t10derkiss@hotmail.com if you would like to talk more privately.
I’ve read a lot about the pill and sometimes it takes a while for the effect to go away… It seems the longer you’ve been taking it, the longer it takes to go away. It took a good year for me. WHen I mentioned the change initially to my GYN ( who should have spotted the vaginismus, but just mistook it for being a virgin), she said that it *might* go away in 3 months- why would I wait 3 months for it to go away, especially as a newlywed? It was abhorrent that she would suggest such a thing! But it ended up staying in my system a lot longer.
The best professional help i can suggest is a physical therapist. She got me to the point of probably being able to physically have sex, but then I had to work on all that emotional trauma I had acquired from that first year. So if you go to your GYN, she can suggest a women’s health physical therapist that can help you let go of all of that stress down there. BIG HELP!
After that (or during) it may be helpful to go to a Clinical Psychologist instead of an MD. I had counselors insist that it was only in my head too… but I also had a counselor who explained to me so clearly that it is quite difficult to go from sex is bad bad bad to sex is ok now and have lots of it!! YOu may need to go through a couple of therapists before finding a good one.
Now, my libido seems to be much better, and I can do other great things to feel intimate with my husband (whoever tells you that you can’t do all that other stuff, shame on them. no wonder we have so many problems if people are telling us we can only do missionary position.) Do what’s comfortable for both of you. A great book that both my husband and I read is Mars and Venus in the Bedroom, and another great classic is The joy of Sex. Mars and Venus was so enlightening and educational for a good little mormon girl like me hehe.
Most of all, don’t feel guilty. It’s so hard not to, especially with the social pressures we are under. But your husband loves you- It was very difficult for my husband when I had no libido- and it’s not just about getting sex. For men, sex is a way to be emotional, and when we deny them intimacy they feel rejected. It’s important to remember that, then we can try to be close to them instead of trying to be sex goddesses because society thinks we should be:)
Comment by Friend — April 29, 2008 @ 9:29 pm
I just wanted to chime in and say that for me, 1) yes, shelving your expectations really helps decrease the performance anxiety (which impedes libido and climax), so the less you expect, the more you’ll enjoy it and, over time, it will get better. 2) Experimentation really helps you both figure out what works for you both. I’ve only ever had sex with DH, but I get the sense that every pairing needs time and experimenting to work things out, whether for emotional, psychological, or physiological issues. 3) Communicate (considerately) during sex–tell each other if something is working or not working, helping or not helping. 4) Do what turns you on, before or during. Maybe it’s sexy talk, maybe it’s researching new ideas & positions (iVillage has lots, plus there’s lots of books and kama sutra stuff out there, as I’m sure you know). Maybe it’s lingerie or body chocolate or naked couples massages. Just do it. 5) In lieu of therapy, I recommend the book “The 6 Secrets to a Lasting Relationship; or, How to Fall in Love Again and Stay there”. It’s not specifically sex therapy, but it is essentially relationship info. AND therapy (if you want to use it that way), w/o the anxiety of a 3rd person you have to look at and talk to.
Comment by Artemis — April 29, 2008 @ 9:46 pm
I have no libido. I feel like I could go the rest of my life with no sex and I wouldn’t miss it. I think there are several reasons for this that have been mentioned above but one thing that hasn’t been mentioned is premature ejaculation. Dh and I have been married for almost 10 years and he still can’t thrust for very long before climax. I’ve read that there are some ways to help this but I am honestly not that interested in doing my part to help. Has anyone had real success with a technique to help pe?
Comment by nolibido — April 29, 2008 @ 9:49 pm
I think it’s more than just low testosterone or estrogen. There may be imbalances in other hormones in the endocrine system that either cause or are somehow related to low libido. Hypothyroidism is one. I was diagnosed after pregnancy #4 (I think this last pregnancy just destroyed my thyroid). There was seriously a period of time when I felt completely numb from the waist down. I couldn’t have acted interested in my husband if I wanted to. I felt awful, and my sweet husband was frustrated. I was so grateful to find out about my thyroid - there WAS something wrong with me. Not that I’m unsexy (well, that may be debatable), but my hormonal balance was off. The body just doesn’t function the way it is supposed to when something is off, and the endocrine system is a whole matrix of hormones.
Guest, perhaps a blood screen would help? For both you and your husband?
Comment by Stephanie — April 29, 2008 @ 10:20 pm
Two books, Getting The Love you Want and And They Were not Ashamed. They won’t solve all of your problems but they might help you understand some of the emotions that we hold on to and cause problems during sex.
The author of the first book said that the person we marry is like our parent that we have most of our unresolved issues with. I guess I married…well, both of my parents. How weird is that? True, but definitely weird.
Comment by Sunshine — April 29, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
Television conditions us to think that it’s easy, but that is just not the norm for anyone.
I agree with Reese, #67. I wish for what I call “Hollywood Sex” where you rip each others clothes off and everything is timed “just right”.. Yeah… right…
Sex has been a total let down for me too. We’ve been married for 9 years I was a virgin, he wasn’t. We probably did more fooling around, b/f we got married than after… Most of our problems stem from my lack of libido and I’ve been off BC to see if that would help. It hasn’t. On top of that, sex makes me feel vulnerable and now with post-nursing boobs and some baby weight to get rid of, I’m for the first time in my life self conscious.
Would someone out there just invent a libido pill or something? Guys get the little blue pill, Viagra. Why can’t we (women) have a little pink pill?
Anyway. I’m glad to see I am not the only one with a screwed up sex life… no pun intended.
Comment by SuperGabers — April 29, 2008 @ 10:37 pm
Seth #40, that’s freaking hilarious.. and right on the money..NEVER, EVER, EVER, record yourself. Leave that to the professionals.
Comment by Sunshine — April 29, 2008 @ 10:42 pm
Double L, have you ever learned to pleasure yourself? I realize this is a big taboo for most LDS, but it may be the very key to solve your problem now that you are married. Once you get that part down, then you involve your husband and show him how and what works for you. Just a thought (and a little surprised nobody’s mentioned it here yet).
Comment by Rich — April 29, 2008 @ 11:48 pm
For those who have struggled with vaginismus, I have been there too. It took us almost 5 months to complete intercourse after marriage. I went to the gynecologist and told her that I must be just waaaaaay too small and what can I do about it? She was not very helpful - she looked at me dumbfounded and said that the vagina is the stretchiest muscle in the body since it lets a whole baby come through. So then I felt like I really did have a defective vagina. But she did off-handedly suggest using dilators that you can order through the internet. I did end up using them (they kind of look like different sizes of test tubes) and they did help me stretch. It felt VERY wierd to search for, order, and use these things. There was lots of laughing involved while I did my “stretching”. But it did help me overcome the physical limitation we were having.
I can also relate to so much of what other people have written. These comments have validated my experience and it has been relieving to know I am not alone. I hope the tip about dilators can help any other newlywed that feels like there is something wrong with her anatomy.
Comment by Anon — April 29, 2008 @ 11:49 pm
My husband and I were both virgins on our wedding night, and hoo-boy, was that night ever a let-down. My expectations were SO high, after months of hot make-out sessions. But it was excruciatingly painful and thankfully brief.
I was honestly ticked off the next day. Not at HIM necessarily, just at the world. It felt like an injustice. THAT was what I’d built up in my mind and waited for? I was so grumpy all day. My poor husband had no idea what my problem was. I’m sure he was wondering who on earth he had just married.
Luckily, on our honeymoon, we put our noses to the grindstone and practiced. And it got better, and better and better. I know that isn’t the case for everyone, but for a lot of people - practice makes perfect.
The forbidden thing still clicks with both my husband and I. If there is a chance we might get caught, we both totally want to do it. It’s just ingrained.
Comment by anon for this also — April 30, 2008 @ 12:28 am
This has been amazing. The pressure I felt has been lifted just by knowing that other people have struggled. I think I was worried that we were the only ones trying to get amazing sex and it feels good knowing that we aren’t alone.
Thank you everyone for good tips and for sharing your stories. My husband and I are excited to try some new things.
Kevin Barney #66- Yeah, my husband and I joke all the time that we are surprised Mormons have so many kids because garments ruin all romance, at least in our house.
I almost feel like the church should talk about this more. They just say, “Sex is bad until marriage” but what about after that. There is no where to go to talk about sex or to go learn about how to work on it. I’m glad we have the internet.
Comment by Guest poster — April 30, 2008 @ 6:00 am
noname? (warning, graphic information ahead) The “cure” for premature ejaculation is: him not starting until you’re finished.
Ways to do this: 1) him using his fingers on you (this may take lots of practice, start gently) 2) him using his tongue on you (I recommend lots of practice on this one, even if you figure it out right away.) 3) a, ah, sex toy. I was totally disturbed by them until a friend bought me a small, cute one. 4) Kegel exercises.
To start you probably need to understand what your body likes. You may need to practice masterbation on your own at first; once when you figure out what your body likes, start having him encorporate what you’ve discovered. Chances are, he’ll think it’s majorly awesome.
When you’re satisfied, he gets his chance. Ladies first. I know this is all really embarrassing and difficult, not to mention freighted with massive amounts of religious baggage.
But, It’s what I did, and, for me, it worked rather spectacularly.
Comment by djinn — April 30, 2008 @ 8:03 am
DoubleL, #82 that is what I thought about the church until I read the book, And They Were not Ashamed. It is written by an LDS woman author. I was at Deseret Book looking for a Mother’s Day present, bought it and then headed out the door when I was so lucky to glance over to the book on cd rack and found this book. I picked it up turned it over and started reading. It was odd because even in that moment I felt ‘uncomfortable’ reading something that was about sex. Just the back of the cd box was so interesting to me that I walked over and found the book. I sat in that store for about an hour flipping through the pages.
That book is amazing. She quotes prophet after prophet, scripture after scripture about sex and how we should enjoy sex and how it is okay. It is AMAZING!! My favorite, though, is the scripture “Men are that they might have joy.” Joy in every aspect of their lives. Joy in sex…she quotes more to make this scripture even more important, I just can’t remember. If you don’t want to read, get the book on tape. She is amazing!!!! She actually talks about knowing your own body. Think about it, our bodies are ours. We are in charge of them and it is up to us to know how they work. Once we know that then we can help our spouse to understand what we need and what we want. (asking for what you want can sometimes be embarrassing, but it is amazing what happens when you do.)
She also says (and this was important to me because I wondered the same thing) that they church really can’t come out and say what is right and appropriate during sex. Just think of the can of worms or problems that they would create, not to mention (she quotes this scripture) “It is not meat that I should council you in all things” meaning sex is up to you and your spouse. Not the whole church and not even your neighbor. Your level of comfort is between you and your spouse. I found that to be very profound.
Now, that being said, we need to change the way we refer to sex. I have an 8 year old daughter, 5 year old son, and a 3 year old son. We have already been through the process of sex. (yes age appropriate) My daughter got out of the shower and asked a question about babies. So, I pulled out my somewhat animated anatomy book and we looked at what it looks like to have a baby. Where the baby comes from, when is the appropriate time for someone to see you naked. It was so awesome. It was a totally relaxed open environment to talk about sex and the body. She mentions in the book that we need to change the way we talk about it. The time to have sex is after marriage. Oh, and she talked about when we get married in the temple (she encourages temple marriage) how we make covenants, well, sex is the ordinance of marriage. Just like getting dunked is the ordinance of baptism. That is why it is so important to wait until you are married.
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 9:00 am
I’m another who can’t believe that works for anyone. It’s like the more I do it, the more I’m sick of it. I don’t like foreplay because I’m highly sensitive. I adore my husband, but our libidos are sorely mismatched. He would like it ideally at least once or twice a day - I think I’d be happy with maybe once a month. I try to do it as often as he wants - he’s still frustrated and feels “unfulfilled” sexually, I’m sick of his frustration and expectations. He can bring me to orgasm, and I like them, but I just don’t want to do it all the time. I can’t imagine going to see a sex therapist, unless they were LDS and could deal with it from our perspective.
Comment by Rebekah — April 30, 2008 @ 9:16 am
I think it’s helpful to look outside ourselves and meditate on spiritual aspects of sex - and spiritual symbolism that points to it.
1. We believe in a Resurrection - how many others have a firm hope of a perfect resurrection of a glorified body? That should settle all so-called obstacles in the bedroom. A painting that best depicts the Resurrection for me is The Birth of Venus by Botticelli. It shows nude Venus coming out of her seashell, with attendants waiting to put on her clothes. When I saw this in Florence, I was reminded of 2 Nephi 9:14, wherein the wicked are ashamed of their bodies in the Resurrection, whereas the righteous have perfect glory in their “enjoyment”. Enjoyment to me means the embodiment of joy, which a naked body is, for all our family and friends to see - then a robe of righteousness is given to each of us. Picture this in your mind.
2. Our bodies, designed in the image of God, appear to contain physical emblems of divine and cosmic symbolic significance. For the man, there’s the obvious symbolism of the Tree of Life. There’s the sprout, stem, and budding. The sack, to me, seems obviously designed by the intelligent designers as an emblem of the beehive and the seed all in one. Study different beehives for yourself to see it; as for the seed, they both have a dividing line in the middle.
For the woman there’s to me the obvious symbolism of the Tree of Knowledge. Why are men so attracted to those two points setting way up high (Bob Seger song)? In my opinion pheronomes and science still don’t explain the whole mystery. In my view men have an a prioiri knowledge planted in us from the former world we lived in. Those points are the emblems of Eve taking two fruits in the Garden from the serpent; with their beautiful blossoms too.
This doesn’t remotely exhaust divine symbolism in the body; there’s no end to it. Picture this in your mind.
3. The body, like the temple garment, is a cosmic map pointing to the whole Plan of Salvation, and the Atonement. If you study Kabbalah Tree of Life diagrams (ancient Jewish philosophy and mysticism), they are centered around the body of Adam Kadmon (the cosmic man) and a divine woman/goddess. With careful study you can see it also on temple clothing. Kabbalah is the study of polarities and how they become one. Kabbalah has three polarities, fire opposing water, with Spirit in the middle resolving them into one. This compares to our baptism of water, fire, and the Holy Ghost. Kabbalah has 10 fires of the Sephiroth. This compares to 10 commandments; innumerable other connections. If you study the names associated with those numbers, they compare with many beautiful passages in the scriptures in the Bible, Book of Mormon, D&C, PofGP. One example is how the Atonement resolves justice and mercy into one (Alma 42): these are prominently in Kabbalah. So for me, Kabbalah is obviously of ancient divine origin, imprinted all over the scriptures, however corrupted it may have been over time. Picture this on your bodies next time.
4. Sex is everything from fooling around and laughing your head off (I think the English Romantic poet Lord Byron taught us well that sex can be funny) - all the way to a hierophany, the mystical, sacramental communion with the divine presence. This points to a deeper understanding of the Atonement. For Atonement is more than just the reconciliation of God and man, or the oneness of the godhead; with these likened to the embrace at the temple veil through “Five Points of Fellowship” (old masonic/Mormon terminology). It is also man and woman, that they may be “one flesh”. Picture this next time.
5. Tantric sex and Kundalini (Eastern traditions) teach us of spiritual practices that highlight a deeper awareness of sexual experience. Sex is more than physical or emotional; it is also spiritual. Oneness is more than flesh. Among many other types of experiences, I’m a firm believer sex can lead individuals, who are aware and meditate, can lead to OBEs (out of body experiences), astral sex with your partner, spirit possession, energy release, etc. I’m convinced the temple initiatories help us to loosen up our spirit/body connection so we can be more prepared for these visionary, divinatory experiences, among other kinds. Picture this in your mind.
Hope this is helpful.
Comment by cadams — April 30, 2008 @ 9:22 am
Guest poster. I reinterate # 76’s recommendation. “And they were not ashamed” is awesome; highly recommended. One big difference between it and other LDS “intimacy” books. It’s written by a woman. Great book for reversing “Sex is bad before marriage” or what the author calls “The Good Girl Syndrome.”
And, yes, leave the g’s at the front door. Close the curtains and wear what turns you on–literally. It should be nobody’s business–especially not your bishop or SP. They’re not in your marriage. This will bother some people, but I feel very strongly about it. Too many years’ experience.
Comment by Anon_2 — April 30, 2008 @ 9:30 am
Sunshine is giving excellent advice. Satisfying a woman is a skill that requires expertise and experience just like any other skill.
Read the book together with your husband and talk about what you are reading. You might want to read two or three books to get a variety of perspectives that can spark your conversation.
Beyond the how to guides, you might benefit reading about sexuality more broadly. There is some fascinating work in primate anthropology that will not help you with your problem in a narrow sense but provide some useful perspective.
There might be other issues but none of them can be resolved without proper education.
I am wondering about your lack of libido though. That is an indication that something biological might be going on. In healthy lovers, hormones will be raging for the first three years of their relationship (that’s why most divorces occur in the fourth year of a relationship).
There are a number of ways to explain the absence of libido for young couples couples:
a) Have you been dating and engaged for a long time?
b) Were you socialized with negative images about sex? How did your mother and father and other authority figures talk about sex? What do you believe about sex?
c) Did you have a painful experience having sex with each other?
d) I apologize for raising a sensitive matter but is there any chance that your husband is gay?
e) Are there any medical issues that might restrain your libido?
I think that it was Janet who said that there are other explanations for a low libido than sexual orientation or infidelity. However, that does not put me at ease because healthy young men and women are supposed to have sex. That’s how our species survives.
If there is no libido then there is a problem. At the very least, you should properly diagnose your condition because it might be an indicator of a serious underlying condition.
Comment by Hellmut — April 30, 2008 @ 9:46 am
You know, something else that hasn’t been brought up is pornography. I have met men (mostly men, but could be women too) that have a low sex drive because they look at porn. You wouldn’t think that possible, but trust me it is. They seem disinterested in their spouse and can only get off if they watch someone else have sex. It is very detrimental to the soul, not to mention your significant other and can cause huge problems in the bed.
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 10:02 am
That might be an urban myth, Sunshine. Men who look at pornography will be more frisky, not less.
What is true is that men are naturally interested in other women after three years, which is a function of hormones.
Comment by Hellmut — April 30, 2008 @ 10:11 am
Hellmut, where is your evidence for that (#90)? I’ve heard the same thing about pornography (#89), and it seems to make sense.
Comment by Stephanie — April 30, 2008 @ 10:55 am
Great book, my wife hands it out as wedding gifts to close friends and family after we read it. It really helped with the “sex is bad for 20+ years, then suddenly it’s great”.
Hahaha, what?
Comment by jjohnsen — April 30, 2008 @ 10:59 am
No, it is not an urban myth having first hand experience with men who have had lower sex drive because they looked at porn..it would make most men frisky, but not all. Not everything applies to all… maybe you were saying that..I couldn’t really tell.
Not only that but my sister therapist strongly recommend to avoid porn. It begins to condition you that they only way you can get excited is to look at porn and then where is the togetherness in that? There isn’t any because you are letting an outside source do all of your work, pretty soon you rely on that and don’t want to make any effort, work, or put any love into the relationship.
Trust me…it happens.
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 11:04 am
May I just say that one of things I love about FMH is that you are able to have this kind of a helpful conversation with openness and frankness. Whatever did our parents do when they had these sorts of issues?
Comment by Kevin Barney — April 30, 2008 @ 11:07 am
Actually, I agree that p*rn leads to an increased appetite for things related to se*, but that doesn’t necessarily translate to an increased desire for normal, healthy se* with your wife.
Comment by Stephanie — April 30, 2008 @ 11:10 am
#95, exactly!!!!
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 11:14 am
Sorry about the p word mfranti…I forgot! *shrug*
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 11:16 am
I believe it all comes down to how you are raised. If your parents never talked about sex, or told you sex is bad, then it’s unlikely you’ll be able to change your mind since that’s your first “experience” in learning of sex. It’s hard to overcome that kind of conditioning without professional help. THis is hard because in our church so many parents try so hard to raise their children to avoid sin, but don’t know a healthy way to do it without giving those children an unhealthy view of sex. It’s that whole “If you obey then you will be blessed” so you’re led to believe if you are obedient in avoiding sexual encounters before marriage then you will be blessed with positive ones after marriage.
SOmetimes it’s har dto get the parents out of the bedroom, but that is just what HAS to happen.
ANd for goodness sakes take your daughters to the Gynecologist at the normal age, not 3 months before their marriage. I have a friend who had to have a surgery 3 days after her wedding for a cyst she didn’t know existed until she went to the gynecologist 3 months before. It can help those with Vaginismus realize the problem and have the time and patience to overcome it before they are intimate with someone. It also teaches young women that their lady parts are important not just for sex with the husband (as waiting to go the gyn till you’re about to be married suggests), but for health, well-being and self-esteem.
Comment by Jess — April 30, 2008 @ 11:47 am
Hmm, many people I know, as well as many people that have posted in the various FMH sex threads disagree with you, but maybe they’ve all got lucky and eventually it will destroy their husbands libido.
I know this might upset people that have been told from year one that porn is horrible, lingerie is dirty, and toys are evil, but these things are all used by people in normal, healthy relationships all the time. Of course people have problems with pornography. There are also millions of people that have a glass of wine with dinner once or twice a week without becoming raging alcoholics that destroy their lives.
Comment by jjohnsen — April 30, 2008 @ 11:55 am
Lulubelle….I think you may be dealing with more issues than you think if you can’t type the word “sex.” Go ahead…send in a post that is more more than the word sexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsexsex
Comment by Fran — April 30, 2008 @ 12:21 pm
Great “sex” once was fine, but now you’re going to make my work firewall block FMH.
Comment by jjohnsen — April 30, 2008 @ 12:28 pm
Responding to the idea that p*rn helps marital sex or hurts. As someone who has dealt with this, I’d say it hurts the relationship, regardless of what it does to the sex drive. As a guy, I’ve found there are two ways you can get turned on during sex.
1. You can mentally retreat inside yourself and fantasize about whatever imagery you want. While physically present with your wife, your mind is somewhere else. You can orgasm that way, and it can certainly work.
OR
2. You can actually be fully involved with your wife, engaged emotionally with her and enjoy her reactions, feelings and enjoyment of the moment. You can also make it work that way.
Of the two approaches, the first couple years of our marriage, I was on #1 most of the time. I had a p*rn problem and it really twisted how I viewed women, including my wife. When we were having sex, I was somewhere else. My wife didn’t know what was going on, but she knew something was wrong, and didn’t like the constant subtle pressure she was getting from me to “be a certain way” during intimacy. We had a happy marriage overall, but the bedroom was a source of lowered self-esteem for her. As for me, I knew I was AWOL, and felt like a selfish jerk for it.
Over time, I’ve managed to switch largely to #2. And it has helped a lot. My wife noticed the difference immediately. I think that, to the extent porn takes intimacy and puts it inside your head, it really does hurt relationships in the bedroom.
Comment by Anonfornow — April 30, 2008 @ 1:07 pm
That’s how pornography works, Stephanie. Guys look at pictures to stimulate their libido, not to suppress it.
Having observed guys using pornography in the military, I have never seen anyone who would not have been more desperate after porn.
That’s an important point, which is why I already alluded to it. Thanks for saying it more explicitly.
Notice, however, that I am making a different argument.
I did not argue that pornography would be a remedy. I did argue that pornography is not the problem.
Wow. You have talked to a guy who claims that he has less sex because he is into porn? That’s interesting. I would love to learn more about that.
Are you sure that this guy has not been leading you on? May be, he is leading himself on.
The thing is that male sexuality relies on visual cues for arousal. It is the essence of pornography to deliver arousal, which is quite different from delivering satisfaction.
But I suppose anything is possible. Having shared quarters with a couple of thousand guys over the years, I do not know a single man like that. I also have never read about anything like that in the power and sex literature. Neither in the birth control policy literature.
They talk about phenomena like stress, other creative outlets, and lactation to reduce or sublimate libido.
If pornography reduces libido at at all, it’s rare. Masturbation can be a factor, of course, but a healthy man will prefer intercourse if the latter is available.
I am pretty confident that guys who like pornography but do not like to have sex are either seriously messed up or, more likely, are having sex with someone else.
If pornography is in the mix then affairs or prostitution are likely to be the real culprits.
It’s important to keep in mind, however, that this is merely a discussion about the plausibility of hypotheses, which are probably not all that relevant to Brother Guest.
Comment by Hellmut — April 30, 2008 @ 1:21 pm
Hellmut, I do agree that the man is visually turned on, but I don’t want 3 other women and 4 other guys in the room with me and my husband. How is that not an orgy?
My husband and I have talked about visual stimulation plenty of times and i certainly don’t have an issue wearing something sexy. I enjoy it myself.
So, how can you say then, if he is watching p*rn and then masturbating that p*rn isn’t the problem? He then gets turned off to his wife because he enjoys the way he does it himself, or he enjoys the way the women look rather than they way his wife is.
I am not raising my nose all high and mighty, I am simply saying that it is dangerous. There are so many other tools out there to help a relationship increase intimacy besides p*rn.
Like I said before I don’t feel comfortable inviting others to share in an experience that should be between me and my husband.
In the book that I mentioned she talks about finding what fits with your level of comfort and his level. Every couple will be different and that is fine. I personally feel that the prophets urgings to avoid p*rn and correct. I have had experience with the devastation that it can bring, the sadness, and the loss of trust. It is not a tool. Satan will make anything look good, or of value just to get you to try it.
I have had alcohol through my life time. I also disagree that having one drink is okay. One drink leads to another..leads to another, leads to, well just this once and driving home.. So, that excuse doesn’t work for me. Find something else. Whats wrong is wrong.
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 2:19 pm
I personally follow the word of wisdom and don’t use alcohol. But you’re going straight to extremes. There are millions of people that drink, and it doesn’t lead from one drink to another until finally you’re slaughtering helpless teenagers on the road with your drunk driving. Is it possible the same thing could happen with porn, could couples actually use it to enhance their experience without a negative effect on their relationship?
Comment by jjohnsen — April 30, 2008 @ 3:22 pm
Fran: I can’t type se* at work because it’ll send signals to our IT team.
Comment by Lulubelle — April 30, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
Yea, I am going to extremes on that one, I admit. That being said, (hypothetical) you don’t drink because it is against the word of wisdom, but you watch p*rn. Both are against the commandments, but you choose to follow one and not the other. Double standard. So, I don’t think you can compare the two. I know what p*rn is. I know it is addicting, and why go against the council of the brethren.
Only in the highest degree of Celestial glory will you be able to create. Have you ever thought that that would include sex. No wonder it is so important. No wonder we are told to not watch other people having sex. It is sacred and celestial.
You will do the one and not the other?
After that rant what is comfortable for me, may not be for you and vice versa. I don’t wish to sound condescending, but it is between you and your husband and the Lord. I don’t really think it matters what my opinion is. That, to me, is the joy of sex. We aren’t all made the same, or have the same interest. Find out what works for you.
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 4:38 pm
can i ask that you guys spell p0rn/se* (and any other trigger word) a different way? i’m tired of rescuing comments
Comment by mfranti — April 30, 2008 @ 4:38 pm
LOL I didn’t realize that se* was a problem too…
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
Hellmut, read this.
Comment by Rivkah — April 30, 2008 @ 7:09 pm
awesome article
Comment by Sunshine — April 30, 2008 @ 7:45 pm
When I served a mission in Japan, the p-rn culture was pervasive.
Guys would be unapologetically reading p-rnographic material in public, the stuff in the comic books was completely over-the-top, and the ads everywhere left little to imagination and didn’t even attempt a degree of tastefulness.
I remember riding a train and looking over at a late middle aged man reading a full color spread on how to tie up a woman, complete with graphic imagery. He was doing this in full view of a young businesswoman seated opposite him and a several high school kids standing in the aisle. He didn’t even care or miss a beat.
The stuff was everywhere.
Funny thing though, I never saw a more sexless and uninterested male population in my life. There was kind of a bored objectification with women. Like the guys were simply uninterested.
It wasn’t just me either. Older generations of Japanese would often complain how listless, bored, and zombie-like the younger generation of guys was becoming. It was really like a big chunk of the young male population had been neutered or something.
I’ve heard Japanese women complain about this too. One website about dating called Japanese guys cold, indifferent, and without much passion. We foreign missionary guys were actually kind of a hot item for a lot of girls. I’m starting to realize it was more than just the tall, blond hair, blue eye thing, or even just American pop culture worship. It was the fact that we actually bothered to care about the women we met as people. Some Japanese girls were literally getting zero interest in them from their male peers.
By the way, the same website discussion had complaints about foreign men too - namely that they never have any money or a stable job. FYI.
I’ll be frank, to my own firsthand view, and the view of a lot of missionaries I served with, the Japanese guys often treated their women like crap. And it wasn’t just the old traditional chauvinism either. They just didn’t seem to give a damn about them one way or the other.
This, of course, wasn’t true of all young relationships (perhaps not even most). But it was true of enough of the guys, that I noticed. So did a lot of us.
After reading that article from Rivkah, it’s really starting to fit together. P-rn is literally killing all the life in the young male culture over there. And the United States is going down the same path.
Comment by Seth R. — April 30, 2008 @ 10:28 pm
You can call that culturally bigoted of me if you want. I saw what I saw.
Comment by Seth R. — April 30, 2008 @ 10:29 pm
There is a fair bit of peer-reviewed and well documented research which also suggests that pornography hinders marital happiness by making one less satisfied with a non-airbrushed partner. See for example,
Zillman, D., & Bryant, J. (1988). Pornography’s impact on sexual satisfaction. Journal of Applied Social Psychology, 18, 438-453.
Comment by Naismith — May 1, 2008 @ 4:42 am
Lots of great thought in this Post about sex. I have a couple of ideas- You should come up with something symbolic to rid yourself of any shame in past behaviors (and they aren’t BAD! Just Untimely.) If you haven’t been baptized since your untimely choices, that is such a symbolic act it it can really make you feel “clean” again. If you have been, remember, your past sins were washed away! You were forgiven. Sometimes, of course, a therapist can help make you feel “forgiven,” after all, forgiving ourselves can be the toughest!
There are lots of symbolic ways you can create to “forgive” yourself- whether through some sort of personal penance, or just sitting and writing yourself a letter of forgiveness of all the things you did (with specifics- it works best if you put the actual words down into writing) and then burning it.
Next, I agree with lots of the posters that stress just kills it. Laughter is wonderful. I suggest: naked aerobics, strip memory, strip go fish, naked ballroom dancing. Twister is such a funny naked game. I also suggest some of those very contrived intimacy exercises: sitting cross legged in front of each other naked and holding hands, mutual back rubs ect…. Taking the pressure off yourselves by agreeing to do all of the mentioned above, but NO SEX for 1 month. : ) Good LUCK!
Comment by cgbmac — May 1, 2008 @ 8:40 am
Not to enter too much into the pr0n discussion here, but a few comments: the article referred to Helmut in comment #110 attempts to speak to common sense, particularly from a post-ERA feminist’s perspective, but unfortunately the author has absolutely nothing more than anecdotal evidence to support her claims. I’m not a supporter of all types of pr0n, its industry, and certainly not its abuse; at the same time, however, I’m not entirely convinced that the conclusions Wolfe draws from her own observations of contemporary culture can be unmistakably tied to increased availability and use of s**ual imagery. While it certainly is a factor in regard to gender communication and socialization, what is unclear is whether or not increased use of pr0n is the cause of inter-gender difficulties, or merely symptomatic of existing difficulties related to a variety of other factors. Also, in my opinion and experience, attraction to and use of pr0n, and the effects constituent on the individual, will vary from one person to the next, necessitating individual discretion.
What is important is treating our spouses with the respect and honor they deserve, both in the bedroom and out. That requires honesty, communication, and focused effort on the well-being and happiness of our spouse. In some relationships, that may include the use of mutually-acceptable se**ual imagery. In such cases, couples can gauge its resultant effect on their se**ual relationship, and adjust or eliminate accordingly.
For those who believe that God has forbidden it, partners should work toward ways of eliminating it from their lives as much as possible, and of proactively preventing its infiltration into their relationship. In this context, focusing on “men bad, women objectified” messages in regard to pr0n use is particularly hurtful for both parties involved. It has unintended effects of diminishing the woman’s role to that of the victim, which simultaneously denies to women both complicity in the causes of the behavior, and power to extricate herself from the situation. In that sense, contemporary pr0n’s image of the woman getting exactly what she wants from a man is like a double slap in the face: the pr0nograph1c woman is empowered, while the real life wife becomes the submissive, dehumanized object. Also the “men bad” message further alienates the man from addressing the factors that entice him to furtive use of se**ual imagery in the first place: usually these are unsatisfactory se**ual relationship with the spouse (frequency, variety, etc.); school/job, money, and/or parenting stresses; etc.
The important thing to remember here is that almost no one is immune to the effects of se**ual desire; it is built into our bodies for distinct purposes. Understanding and controlling our innate urges requires time, patience, and cooperation in a committed relationship, especially since these urges effect us in different ways. Judgment, deception, hypocrisy, selfishness, accusation, and victimization all hinder rather than help us approach the issues of pr0n, se**uality, and the nature of of desire in our lives in the context of our contemporary cultural milieu. Peace.
Comment by Observer — May 1, 2008 @ 9:52 am
#74 nolibido— I feel so sad reading your post. Please let go of your ideas of what intercourse is about. Someone else mentioned digital(finger) stimulation and ladies first. That’s what works for us. In fact, we use digital stimulation of the external pubic area all the time, in all of our snuggling, whether it’s scratching or caressing or just holding. I stimulate her slowly and carefully for as long as she wants in whatever way feels good to her, based on her quiet vocalizations or actual words. Sometimes it leads to her feeling satisfied but not interested in penetration but often it builds until she MUST have ‘me’ inside.
Comment by happyone — May 1, 2008 @ 12:29 pm
My mother says that her mother’s idea of sex-ed was to hide a book in the linen closet and pray that you found it, so she did things differently. From the time we were little we called everything by its proper name and as we grew up we learned their proper functions (when appropriate). My parents are extremely affectionate in front of their children. As we got older they got slightly less discrete about the fact that they really turn each other on. After my sister got married she told my mom that she felt bad about having sex before and she felt that it was really hindering their sex after, and in her wisdom she told my sister that it was time to let it go and move on, because the lingering guilt just wasn’t helpful (inspiring repentance is great, depression and self-immolation is beyond the aim). I think that my parents attitude that sex was great and fabulous, balanced by also teaching us clearly that there was a time and a place for it (definitely not when you’re too young to comprehend and accept the consequences, and preferably not before marriage) has been really helpful.
I also have to say that crying and prayer don’t sound like great foreplay. And I think garments are hot.
Comment by e — May 2, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
Could I just ask if some folks think that actually spelling out “s3x” and “p0rn” gives them some sort of power???
Comment by Fran — May 2, 2008 @ 3:30 pm
#74 Nolibido, this is Djinn again. It’s often deeply embarassing for a woman to begin the sort of activities that I suggested, it certainly was to me. But, if you can get started on your own, and then shyly suggest to your husband that he can help, he’ll probably be thrilled. I suspect that Sex is really a skill that has to be learned; it’s not innate for many of us. Men have to learn how to uh, digitally stimulate; it, in my limited experience, does not come naturally, but once a certain threshold has been passed, it’s worth it. Practice, “MMM more of that,” “uh, that a way instead” “lighter” “more purple….”
The way I ended up with a sex toy is that a dear friend purchased it for me. It took me awhile to get up the courage to use it, and longer to figure out what I liked, but it did work. It’s now abandoned, poor thing.
Comment by djinn — May 2, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
fran,
if the words are not edited in some way, they’ll get caught up in fMh’s filter and the permas will have to spend a lot of time letting them out, which will make them all come in out of order and confused. better to edit and allow the posts to appear directly.
Comment by chandelle — May 3, 2008 @ 8:46 am
Hellamut,
some guys react to pn by shutting down in sexual relationships- they’re the ones who are eaten up by guilt and shame and hate themselves for their secret life and don’t think anybody could ever love them, etc. I agree there’s another subset who feel they need more sx than average guys, who want it all the time, and who pressure partners do do more, or to act more like the pn. and then there’s the large amount of normal, causal users who aren’t so totally effected in either way.
I’m just saying. they’re are both types.
Comment by cchrissyy — May 3, 2008 @ 11:00 am
This post (thanks doubleL!) and the ensuing comments have made me think really hard about sex, marriage and our expectations, and how the church, society, the media, our families / friends create a whole set of different ideals for how it, and we, should be.
I wasn’t a virgin when I got married (neither was my husband) and sex has been pretty mundane (and often worse) but it wasn’t until I read people’s comments above that I finally realised we weren’t alone! We’re taught (especially in the media) that sex should earth-shattering, and the church puts enormous stock in its place in our relationships. But actually, its pretty tough most of the time for any two people (however much they love each other) to match physical, intimate and emotional desires at the same time in the same way. DoubleL - the very fact that you care enough about this to a) ask for help and b) want to make changes for the better shows that you’ve got a great chance of improving your sex life. In my experience, it is only when both parties give up hope that resentment sets in and marriages founder.
I don’t have any tips for you other than to keep talking and to keep faith. My husband and I have now been together EIGHT years and only in the three few months have we been able to have any kind of mutual pleasure from sex….. and the results are pretty good :o). I guess this is what is meant in marriage vows (here in the UK, at least) about being together for better or worse.
Comment by Claire — May 3, 2008 @ 5:42 pm
I admire your candor, guest poster, and am so glad you’ve gotten a good response. I would reiterate that sex is work, that it takes time, that it is deeply connected to many other emotional life fronts, body image concerns, residuals of abuse, unhealthy sex attitudes, and general life stressors stressors, and that intimacy is learning to feel like you can connect with your husband through imperfections and acceptance and difficult times, not just despite them.
I’ve scanned all the posts and don’t think anyone has said this out loud yet, but it should be said here and in every other feminist forum that NOT ALL WOMEN EXPERIENCE VAGINALLY-STIMULATED ORGASMS. I’d wager that the majority do not. Which means vaginal sex alone may not do it for you. For MANY of us, the only way is through clitoral stimulation. For many of us, even our dear mortal husbands fall asleep or cramp up fingers before they are able to do sufficient clitoral stimulation. Which means many a healthy, mutually respectful married sex life relies on electronic assistance to get everyone satisfied.
Blush.
But it needed to be said.
The End.
Comment by JB — May 4, 2008 @ 10:43 pm
(applauds)
Comment by cchrissyy — May 5, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
Joe,
You sound just like my poor husband. In fact you write similar to him and he pointed me towards this post and I thought it may have been him under a different name, ’cause lets face it it’s not easy admitting your not getting any when you want it.
He has a higher libido and I can go for weeks without wanting se8.
I love it when we have it, but I just don’t have the inclination to initiate it, which is what I have to do since he never knows when I’m going to say yes and has just stopped trying.
Even though it’s hard, he just waits until I want it, which is sometimes because I’ve realized it’s been so long, and sometimes because I want it. Sadly it’s usually the first, but like I said I do love se* when we have it and enjoy it, but I don’t seem to want it.
Many women have pointed towards thier birth control, which it might be for me, since I changed about 2 years ago and I dare to say that’s around the time my libido really went down.
We’ve also had marital problems.
We also want it at different times of the day, or he wants it at a time that I never want it. (He’s a morning or daytime lover I like it at night.)
We also have two young children and I hate to do anything if they’re awake so by the time I would feel comfortable he usually is too tired anyways.
I’ve also never had an orgasm, except with m*sturbation, which I admit I’ve done since I was a young girl.
Some might now judge and say the fact that I’ve m*sturbated for so long is my sin and why I can’t orgasm with my husband.
I think each women has their way to enjoy their body and I try to m*sturbate with my husband after having se* and still keep it sacred.
Comment by anon#3 — May 5, 2008 @ 8:59 pm
I’m late to this thread, and a lot of this has already been said, but I just wanted to weigh in.
My tips:
-read up on the topic a lot
-let go of all your residual pre-marriage guilt
-have fun
-practice
-use lots of lubrication
-don’t make intercourse the goal of every encounter
-give yourself plenty of time to warm up; don’t try to rush things
-teach your husband to use his fingers and mouth
-try to add variety
-exercise regularly
-learn to love yourself and your own body; negative self-image for me was a huge turn-off
-do things that make you feel attractive (e.g. wear pretty pj’s)
-remember that we don’t have to look like a supermodel to experience incredible pleasure; those happy nerve endings are there in people of all shapes and sizes. (For a while, I had internalized the media message that only perfectly beautiful, thin people deserved se*)
-communicate a lot on the topic with your spouse
-experiment to find activities you both enjoy. Give each other detailed feedback.
-it’s o.k. to be silly sometimes
-it’s o.k. to be just mellow sometimes
-it’s o.k. to be quiet and romantic sometimes
-it’s o.k. to get really crazy excited sometimes
-you can have fun with each other even if it doesn’t result in orgasm every time
-but don’t be afraid to encourage him to do the things that do bring you to orgasm if you’re interested!
-Treat each other with kindness, love, & respect in and out of the bedroom. Serve each other, look for the good in one another, appreciate each other. Have fun together. Be loyal to each other. Be honest. Be really good friends. Treat each other right.
What a fun part of life this can be! But what a frustration and struggle it is when this isn’t going well. This has been an ongoing learning process for me and DH (over many years), but things are getting better and better. Good luck to you and your husband.
Comment by no name today — May 6, 2008 @ 2:32 pm
anon#3 - I’m definitely not your husband, but you sound very much like my wife. I’ve given up initiating, since she’s the limiting factor. Much like you, that usually happens when she realizes how long it’s been. And it feels a bit manipulative. She enjoys that I really seem to connect with her, but remains somewhat distant herself. Unlike you, she orgasms each and every time. I can count the number of “misfires” on one hand.
So in the context of this topic, I’m wondering not if the se* is better before or after marriage, but if premarital se* is important for sensing compatibility in that aspect. As liberated as we like to think our culture is, this really has some aspects of an arranged marriage. The downside of monogamy and premarital abstinence…
Comment by Joe — May 9, 2008 @ 11:50 am
I’m so sad to see so many people talking about learning that sex was “bad”!!! My mother taught me at age 5 or 6 that sex is a wonderful, beautiful thing. That Heavenly Father made us this way so that we can have a special way to show our love for each other. She also explained that the world wants you to think that it’s “bad”. That Satan wants people to laugh about it or talk about it like it’s not something completely private (of course referring to the intimate detail, and not a discussion like this post) After that, I always knew that it was for husband and wife ONLY and that all the stuff you see in the media about it is how Satan wants us to see sex: It’s very fun and bad. I always knew that it was something FOR me! My Heavenly Father planned it FOR me! It’s too bad that in standard nights or whenever we were instructed in YM/YW so many people just took away that it’s BAD. There needs to be more focus on they “why and why nots” and less on the “what and what nots”. And as far as what Joe (I think it was) said about giving into “base” desires–It IS an instinct, you know. And doing it before marriage IS giving into base desires. That doesn’t make you a terrible person, or make sex a bad thing. It just means you used it the wrong way. Teach your kids not that sex is bad, but that it’s GOOD! And that
Comment by Lisa in Poland — May 9, 2008 @ 2:12 pm
I know it’s been a while since this thread was active, but I just found it and thought I’d contribute. . . .
One of the things I have found is that changing the venue can make sex really hot. I am not talking a five-star hotel and a romantic weekend here (because that will build up your expectations and you’ll be disappointed). I’m talking a different room in your house or apartment, or a private place outdoors, or in the woods in a car — anywhere. Instead of having it in the bedroom, try seducing him on the couch while you are watching a video (not necessarily a racy one). Other places we have had sex include in a snow cave he built in our backyard one winter and while camping. Recently, we stayed with a relative, in her bedroom. We both wanted to get frisky, but I felt that it would be rude to have it right there in her bed and kept turning him down. Finally, we couldn’t stand it anymore and had it there — insensitive of us as it probably was, it was the BEST sex I have ever had . . . .
Comment by calico1cat — August 13, 2008 @ 11:24 am
I’m glad someone is comfortable talking about this subject in an appropriate way. I’m not married myself but I want a marry a LDS woman in the temple that is comfortable addressing the subject. My parents hardly ever discussed it when I was growing up. Made sex sound dirty. Which it isn’t. How it is supposed to be used is important. I know that was unintended because my dad didn’t grow up in a religious family and his dad tried to commit sexual abuse on my oldest sister. That might have been caused by his overexposure to pornography. I’m grateful that are finally even LDS sex therapists addressing appropriate ways. I believe–and I could be wrong about this–that even Latter-day Saints that try to be obey the law of chastity the best they can sometimes do smaller things that violate it. We tend to do that with every commandment. That’s why Christ is our Savior and Heavenly Father will judge us. That’s my story.
Comment by Dennis Strack — November 10, 2008 @ 11:50 pm
I just read through all these comments right down to 131 and it is 3.14 in the morning here. I want to thank you all. I only wish I had known all this stuff 36 years ago. We need to use our bodies, and use them well. Have fun all of you, I’m past it now. It is so important to know and understand this stuff if we are to have happy marriages - and isn’t that what we hear all the time in church? Go for it, but don’t let fear or guilt get in the way. However, if you really believe you are not suited (and that doesn’t seem to be the problem here, you all seem to adore/love/care about your spouses) then I believe you have the right to leave your situation, and to be true to yourself and seek happiness even on your own. You will understand when I say I have not been welcome in RS since I expressed that opinion. Why don’t we have sex ed for Young Women? Or even Women? We talk around the subject all the time, and use weasel words as I believe they are called. From memory, and it is a long time ago, I hated sex until I was told about ky jelly. I had to get cysts and go to a specialist to be told about the process. What a waste of years. Later when I was forced to be single after experiencing sex, it was torture to live for decades without it. Now i just sit up late playing on my PC like now……..
Comment by possum — February 14, 2009 @ 12:23 pm
I think sexual compatability is a lifelong project.
In the early years, it’s all the husband can do to keep from climaxing as soon as he gets in and gets going.
In later years later, the wife warms up, climaxes, and is done while the husband can’t seem to fire his gun anymore. He ends up going and going and going until she’s worn out.
Every couple goes through it in their own unique way. You are more normal than you think. The Lord expects you to stay together, communicate, study it out, and work on it together. When you finally get it together, you’ll have GREAT SEX and will be madly in love. .
Comment by RS — March 5, 2009 @ 12:10 am
How can a physically intimate relationship have any chance if there’s virtually no education for this pre-marriage. It has caused a great deal of unhappiness and unnecessary stress in our marriage.
Comment by Tricia Kinghorn — March 16, 2009 @ 10:22 pm
Guest,
I just found this blog today.
I realize it has been several years since you first started this topic but I was wondering how you are doing now?
My marriage was a very long time ago and has been over for a very long time, but I have learned a lot about my situation and was wondering how your situation was now.
Comment by Amanda — July 14, 2010 @ 6:00 am