Series: Pictures of Pornography and the LDS People

By: Janet - May 19, 2008

As our leaders often warn us, our beliefs do not automatically make us immune to the deleterious effects of pornography. Sare, one of FMH’s regular participants, has recently begun a series dealing with this issue on her personal blog, A Fear Of Flying. She foregrounds the series with the following remarks:

This series is an attempt help people find their own answers to these difficult questions and problems. It is also my way of trying to start a conversation that needs to be started: about pornography and LDS people. As Jodi Hildebrandt from the Lifestar program says, sexual addictions are fed by shame and silence. I hope that, in the few weeks that follow, people will speak up about pornography. I hope that people can offer one another frank feedback and support. Because Pornography is out there, and it is prevalent. Encountering it is pretty much inevitable in today’s world. And if we stay in denial, and let fear keep us from addressing it, the problem will continue to worsen and spread, and good LDS people will continue to feel hopeless and ashamed, rather than empowered, informed, and capable to overcome.

In other words, Sare wants us to speak to the problem honestly and absent the victim mentality which fuels the dehumanizing effects of pornography addiction. As you can read in her first post (below), Sare has taken her inenviable experience as the loved one of a porn addict and transformed it into a place from which she seeks to help others. At its best, feminism embraces empowerment of not only the self, but of communal commitment to a more just world. Sare’s pornography series strikes me as such an endeavor, and I’m happy she’s offered to share the conversation with us.


230 Comments »

  1. lol! FMH spells pornography wrong on two successive post titles. :) Are you trying to foil the Google search engine, or the family screeners?

    Comment by BiV — May 19, 2008 @ 1:49 am

  2. this conversation is incredibly relevant and important. thank you to Sare for opening the dialogue and inviting folks here on fmh to join in.

    the portrayal of addiction and how it appears to be manifested is spot on. often those same feelings of untrust, confusion, and bewilderment that effect the family member also effect the addict in much the same way (”Why am I like this?”). Recovery is about building back that trust within oneself, but more importantly, reestablishing a long-term trusting relationship with a spouse and family.

    When the addict is willing to go to any length to get and stay “sober”, then there is a chance. Unfortunately, family members cannot ‘make’ someone willing - that must come from within themselves or be directed by a higher power of their own understanding.

    I loved what Sare had to say regarding her own journey - “was it my fault?” Absolutely not! Sare had nothing to do with her first husband’s addiction or behavior. We are all powerless over other people, places, and institutions - family members are never at fault for the addiction (I recognize the absolutist language, but I stand by it).

    There is help for family members even if their loved one remains in the grips of their addiction. Wives, husbands, and sometimes parents need not wait for their spouse or children to seek help prior to seeking help for themselves in learning how to cope with the addict and the behavior. It can be the case, that a family member’s acknowledgement of the addiction may lead to a change in the addicts own self-awareness.

    Thank you Sare for this series. It’s a great Monday out there sisters and brothers.

    Comment by Mary Magdalene — May 19, 2008 @ 6:01 am

  3. Porn is a huge problem with same sex attracted Mormons also. Even we married women with SSA can get hooked on it. I’ve been six weeks porn -free yippeee! It can be a huge struggle sometimes though.

    Comment by A.J. — May 19, 2008 @ 6:25 am

  4. When my husband told me he had a pornography habit 4 1/2 years ago he wouldn’t go talk to the bishop or go to counseling with me. He said we could handle it ourselves. I became his “cop,” a very unhealthy role for me, I now know. I believed he had completely overcome his addiction. But out of the blue he left me 2 months ago. I don’t know why. In all of this, I wish I had, as the above comment said, gone to counseling and to the bishop for myself as soon as I knew there was such a serious problem in my marriage. No spouse should have to suffer in silence!

    Comment by Joan — May 19, 2008 @ 7:07 am

  5. Opening this dialogue is an incredibly selfless and courageous act.

    Sare’s description of the roller coaster of emotions at learning of her husband’s mental illness (although apparently undiagnosed) is pretty typical of the experience of loss in general. Everybody feels like they are they are unique and terribly alone and are afraid to talk about their experience. The stigma attached to the reality of a loved ones mental illness and/or addiction is very real even in LDS circles.

    While it is true, recovery can only be initiated and affected by the person there are things a loved one can do he/she waits for him/her to get treatment. There are support groups for siblings, parents, and spouses that are very helpful. They provide a safe place to share with others who have similar problems. It really helps to be able to talk freely and know everyone is sympathetic and nonjudgmental.

    It is important to take care of yourself while you deal with life and go about not being confrontational, not nagging and being as patient as is humanly possible.

    Comment by Claudia — May 19, 2008 @ 7:39 am

  6. I agree with Claudia re: mental illness. My dh has clinical depression and even on meds it’s a roller coaster but at least I can blame some thing (a disease) other than him just being an ass. I wish it wasn’t so offlimits to talk about because yes, I feel “Unique and terrible alone and afraid to talk about [my] experience.” We don’t deal with p0rn (that I know of!!!) but there was a lot in the other post that resonated with me.

    And Mary Magdalene, I just love it when you post because your closings always puts a smile on my face. Thanks!

    Comment by anon for this — May 19, 2008 @ 7:50 am

  7. ‘anks Janet, and FMH. :)

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 8:11 am

  8. ACK! The mis-spellings are due to my posting in the wee hours due to insomnia. I shall fix! I’m so sorry Sare!

    Comment by Janet — May 19, 2008 @ 8:31 am

  9. Joan…

    I did an interview with an LDS therapist who works with porn addictions and couples, and she talked a lot about that problem of the spouse becoming the addict’s monitor, etc. I will probably be posting that interview next Thursday.

    I’m very sorry for what you have been going through. No husband or wife should have to bear the burden that you have. It is not your job! And it doesn’t make things better, does it?

    My heart is with you.

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 8:42 am

  10. All too often Mormon men and women are so ‘innocent’ when they get married and they have been so repressed, they know nothing about sexuality, and they feel guilty about any experimentation of their own bodies. That’s why they cling to porn because it’s such a forbidden and exciting taboo and the guilt reinforces addiction.

    When I married my husband, he was so clueless I asked him to go research stuff… i.e. look at some porn I guess. :) I was raised with a ‘wiccan’ mother who showed me playgirl so I wouldn’t be curious and had “joy of sex’ on her coffee table. Needless to say I WASNT curious and am very comfortable with my own body. I was actually a virgin when I got married and felt my standards worked for me. Anyway, my DH was taught so much guilt about ‘carnalness’ and how evil certain acts were even within marriage. He had not even ‘taken care of himself’ for years and I believe if you don’t keep that muscle in tip top shape, things go downhill (literally).

    Anyway, we both looked at porn online and discussed stuff. I’m GLAD he learned about stuff and feels completely differently now about the human body. He’s more open than I am now and frankly, I’m the prude I think. My main point is that ANYTHING can be distructive if you become addicted. Chocolate, solitaire, porn, video games, handwashing ANYTHING. If you keep it in the right framework, seeing sexual acts (i.e. videos and even online) can be educational and benefit a marriage.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 8:42 am

  11. To think that problems with porn is unique to Mormonism is a fairly presumptuous. It is everywhere, ruining marriages all across the country. There may be more guilt involved in admitting it in our culture, but the addiction has nothing to do with what religion you are. I think that distinction needs to be made and understood.

    Comment by BusinessWoman — May 19, 2008 @ 9:10 am

  12. One last thought… I have a girlfriend who is doing that whole Lifestar thing. She’s upset because her husband admitted to her that he fanaticizes about other women sometimes. WELL DUH!!!! I like to sometimes imagine I’m with Dr. McDreamy does that mean I’m committing adultery? Heck, my hubby and I fight over who would get to make out with Angelina Jolie first! I mean, the whole point is, here is my friend taking that ‘thinking of someone else is adultery’ stance and my husband and I are very open about any attractions we may have to others - that doesn’t mean we cheat or love eachother less. I just feel one has to be accepting of the other and not try and hold them to a ’standard of perfection’. I have never thought my hubby was always thinking of me during sex, hell, role playing is half the fun. I wish my friend gave her husband more tolerance and love, she’s stubborn about this and I mean heck, how can he ever ‘prove’ to her he’s only thinking of her? IT’s a no win situation for him.

    Lifestar can be dangerous if you accept the role of ‘victim’ and label your spouse as ‘perpetrator’.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 9:12 am

  13. i’m so grateful that people are talking about this. sare’s right that it’s one of those hard-to-bring up topics. i have a dear friend, mother of 5, whose husband is a terrific guy and they seemed really happy. but one day after years of friendship she confided to me that her DH is a prn addict, and i became a confidant about how it was impacting her. he gets “better” for a time, then falls back into it. she’s an amazing woman, but it’s been hard.

    i suspect that my dad struggled with it the same way sare’s ex did. he’s bi-polar, and had a similar yo-yo personality. it made it hard to be his child.

    i’m glad to learn about this as a mom…in an effort to help my family avoid entrapment. prn is like a tar pit. you can get out, but it’s really hard, messy, and slippery. you need help to extricate yourself, clean up, and build fences around the pit to prevent you from falling back in. perhaps this forum will help some to do that, and spare a generation of people the impact of this evil in their lives. big “hero of the day” to you Sare! Thanks! ♥

    Comment by blue — May 19, 2008 @ 9:17 am

  14. While I agree that this is a difficult to discuss topic and I applaud fMh’s efforts to expand the conversation, I am troubled that the series is being kicked off with such an extreme example. While I respect her situation, and while many will have anecdotes to back this up, statistically, this is not typical. The problem of porn is exacerbated by these kinds of stories: they confuse many good LDS men who look at a picture and feel a thrill into wondering if they are psychologically aberrant (they are not–this is a healthy biological response!). This approach only feeds the shame and shuts down communication.

    These stories also encourage LDS women who discover that their husbands view or have viewed porn to feel that they are suddenly on the brink of a failed marriage and that their husband is suffering from a mental/emotional disorder. I fell that this is an overreaction in the vast majority of cases.

    I was sitting in a stake priesthood meeting and someone in the stake leadership gave us estimates of how many active men, at all levels of local leadership, were ‘addicted’ to porn. It was a mind boggling number, and likely encompassed many good men–wonderful husbands and fathers and priesthood leaders–in that room. This needs to be treated not as an aberrant, extreme behavior, but a natural one that many male members struggle with (not unlike masturbation and sex before marriage).

    I hope that as you all move forward with this discussion, that you clearly distinguish between dalliance and curiosity with pornographic images and real behavioral problems. I hope, too, that bloggers and commenters will clearly define what they mean by both “porn” and “addiction.”

    Comment by JohnR — May 19, 2008 @ 11:32 am

  15. (OK, this is the last time I’m going to post here for a while, but man, this is great to get the discussion going, I get excited)

    John R: this is one of the reasons why I wanted to do this series. I want to distinguish between an addiction or habit and someone who just has the occasional lapse or one-time event… and provide people with the knowledge they need, and the discussion necessary, to not “freak out” over incidents like that.

    It was an encounter just like you describe, with a woman whose fiancee looked once, then confessed to her within 24 hours, (and over that she was trying to decide whether to stay engaged to him or not) that made me want to get some real info out there, about prevalence, and all that you have discussed in your comment above.

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 11:39 am

  16. A topic I hope you’ll broach during the series is to what extent LDS women are involved in pornography. I appreciated the gender neutral pronouns of sare’s OP, but, if we bracket romance novels and those with SSA as mentioned above, is there a significant incidence of LDS women using pornography? And if so, how does that manifest itself? Playgirl? (Does that magazine even still exist?) Soft core movies on Cinemax? Internet sites?

    I guess I’m curious about how gender neutral we need to be here, and whether this isn’t mostly a male issue.

    Oh, and another thing, I realize this is perhaps selfish of me, but I get annoyed at the dominance this subject is given in general priesthood meetings. Sometimes it seems like that’s all the brethren talk about anymore. If they’re going to devote that much time to one subject, then instead of simply inveighing against it perhaps they could offer some constructive advice to those enmeshed in it. In any event, I freely confess to getting tired of the topic in the priesthood context.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — May 19, 2008 @ 12:28 pm

  17. I’m not placing my real name here because I struggled with this at one time as a man, and I don’t want to think about it–it’s in the past and it will stay there. It’s the only way I’ll keep it there.

    For me, like many recovering alcoholics, I’ve come to realize that there are certain temptations that I will always face–the temptation to look will likely be one of them. It isn’t as strong as it once was, and it fades over time, but I’d be foolish to think I was completely immune. That’s how I had relapses well into my marriage (thinking I was safe).

    Some men are not tempted by this. I think that many are. But the truth is that it is a simple temptation. The visual stimulation is a simple fact, and the psychology of it all is pretty blatantly straightforward. Unfortunately. Some men simply don’t have the addictive personality or are able to channel their energy in other directions. For me its not that simple, and I’ve struggled with it. I suspect my wife knew, but never said anything.

    I’ve dealt with it, I’ve talked to the bishop, and it’s over. I will never go back if I can avoid it, and I very much avoid the possibility. I also keep myself busy enough that I don’t need to worry about it.

    That’s what I find simplest. Right now, the computer is in a location where I simply can’t look at those types of things, and I don’t want to change that. I think it’s a good practice for all families. I recommend it for everyone.

    Comment by shamed — May 19, 2008 @ 12:54 pm

  18. Sare,

    When you use words like “lapse’ and “confessed within 24′ that is what I think troubles me and probably John.

    As I was saying… it MAY NOT BE something immoral at all. Healthy men and women can view porn and as long as it is put in a proper perspective and not a habit it can be helpful to a marriage. Heck, my hubby was made to feel that anytime he had a ‘bad thought’ he should ‘confess’ it. I couldn’t believe that. It’s attitudes of judgement like that that cause men to feel they are abhorrent, even when they are perfectly normal, healthy men.

    As women, we should allow men and women to express their sexuality and be a little more tolerant that frankly, everyone has ‘kinkiness’ in some way or another. I agree with John that making someone feel bad about viewing porn or masterbating on occassion is one of the quickest ways to have them form an addiction.

    Addictions happen when you mix ‘guilt’ feelings and ‘taboo’ feelings with an edge of excitement. My hubby knows he can go online at anytime and get some ideas from stuff and I’ll appreciate his effort. :) I view porn every once in a while and it gets me thinking new things to do with him when he gets home. I don’t feel guilty about it, nor do I think it’s unhealthy if it’s occassional. I have more guilt about how much chocolate I’m eating (being pregnant and all) and my cursed cell phone addition probably bringing me and baby brain cancer.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 12:59 pm

  19. I don’t know whether to post here or on Sare’s story…

    Anyway, I also wanted to say that I appreciate this series and am looking forward to reading it. My dh uses porn (I also have wondered about using the phrase “addicted”–part of me says he is, because he can’t seem to stop using it even though he knows it bothers me and that he would be better off without it; part of me says not so much, because I think his actual consumption is not all that high, nor does it seem to be having hugely detrimental effects on his life functioning. Well, we’ll call it a minor addiction). I knew about the porn before we got engaged, and he did abstain for several months before our temple marriage, which I appreciated. The worst thing about the time when we were dating is that I was definitely in “police” mode. He ahd a program on his computer (not a filter) that would monitor the sites he visited and send me a report. This might work for some, but all it did was make me obsessed. I would rush home form school to check on his internet activity, and every time we were together that would be hanging over us. He decided to stop using the program, and although I was disappointed (and occasionally wish he would use it again), I definitely noticed that I’ve chilled out a lot now that I don’t have constant access to his browsing information.

    Anyway, we’ve been married for 2 years, and he just hasn’t been able to kick the habit. I knew this was a possibility when I married him, and I’m really OK with it most of the time. He doesn’t neglect me, we have a decent sex life, and although we rarely talk about porn (emotions get high, he feels threatened), I feel like he’s doing what he can and will eventually talk to me about it when he’s ready. My challenge now is to focus on loving my husband as he is.

    Of course, some people’s situations are way worse, and I really believe that there are situations that are NOT healthy to be living in, but right now mine is not one of those. I guess I just want to say that a porn-using spouse does not have to be the end of the world.

    Comment by Asphodel — May 19, 2008 @ 1:03 pm

  20. I’m with JohnR and Kevin. We had a friend at BYU who divorced her husband and raised their little girl as a single mom. My wife made comments at the time about how good it was for our friend to be rid of this guy. I don’t know all the details of the situation (nor does my wife), but I honestly worry about my marriage if I ever confessed to my wife that I occasionally look at porn. I love my wife, I love my children, I am a good provider, emotionally present, active member, etc. What’s the issue? Good heavens.

    And yes, I’m utterly tired of being harassed in every priesthood session about the issue. Why does no one mention this in RS? After all, 62% of women masturbate, right? I’m amazed at what a misandrous Church we have, despite the patriarchal culture and structure. Good heavens.

    Comment by Joe — May 19, 2008 @ 1:24 pm

  21. As I was saying… it MAY NOT BE something immoral at all. Healthy men and women can view porn and as long as it is put in a proper perspective and not a habit it can be helpful to a marriage.

    Elise, I ain’t gonna argue. As we all know, sexuality within marriage is up to the couple, even among temple-reccomend holding members. What a couple decides to do, mutually, to enhance their sexuality is absolutely their business.
    But my story (and the one I mentioned, the fiancee) are examples of non-consenting partners. I don’t want my husband to look at porn by himself. I’m not willing to live with that… it is not healthy for me. And the woman I mentioned was not OK with her fiancee looking at it, either. So confessed was the way she looked at it, the word she used when she spoke to me. Also the word I use to describe what my DH did when he came back from ‘leaving’ me.

    One thing I agree entirely with… and something that BR mentoined in the second part of the interview I did with him, was that LDS people in particular do not do all that they could, sometimes, to fulfill the measure of their creation sexually.. because they are so worried about what is “wrong” and “right” within the context of their own sexual realtionship. It can be damaging, and can lead to sexual frustration, which can lead to… lots of stuff, like porn addictions, I think.

    Shamed… thank you for relating your experience. I do not think it is an uncommon one! And you inspire me.

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 1:26 pm

  22. I have learned *a lot* through my husband’s struggle with pornography:
    1) The term “addiction” is thrown around too loosely. My husband and I had/have a very healthy sex life and he treats me with great respect. It wasn’t impacting anything in his life, except for feeling the shame b/c of what he was told by the Church.
    2) When the problem insn’t that frequent, treatments can actually make it worse–why make a man in therapy track his “temptations” to view porn on a weekly basis when in his history he’s only looked at it a few times in his whole life? It’s making him think about it more, and more, and more than he would on his own. Ridiculous.
    3) Partners of porn viewers need resources. We need help to know what to do or have someone to talk to. My bishop was no help at all. I took a stab in the dark and tried absolute forgivness and compassion toward DH, which, in my case, was the right choice. It wasn’t worth ending my marriage over.
    4) We need to relax. Know that porn alone won’t kill a marriage. With all the hype of porn’s problems, I hit a hard panic followed by a hard depression when my husband told me about this problem. I was naive; I thought it was going to kill us. After a failed suicide attempt on my part, I realized that hey, why make a big deal out of it? He looked at porn six times in his whole life. He’s still the same person. We still love each other. We still have great respect, and great sex. People outside the Church would have never taken the reaction I did on finding out about such a minor infraction. Now I refuse to be bullied by people who want to turn my husband’s occasional shortcomings into something huge–but with the way it’s treated in GC and elsewhere, how could I have taken it any more lightly? How was I to know what was a big deal and what wasn’t?

    Comment by anon — May 19, 2008 @ 1:35 pm

  23. […] Series: Pictures of Pornography and the LDS People […]

    Pingback by Pornography Addiction on FMH « The Visitors’ Center — May 19, 2008 @ 1:38 pm

  24. that you clearly distinguish between dalliance and curiosity with pornographic images and real behavioral problems. I hope, too, that bloggers and commenters will clearly define what they mean by both “porn” and “addiction.”

    Very fine and necessary cues for qualification and clarity, JohnR. Thanks! Attempting to distinguish between erotica and pornography might also serve us well, though that’s a fuzzy line at best. One person’s erotica may be another person’s porn, I suppose.

    It does make sense that Sare would start her series with her own experience, however, even if that experience is admittedly aberrant. Even most true porn addicts, I imagine, do not attempt murder as did her husband. It sounds like porn addiction existed for him as an effect of some underlying issues rather than a cause of everything else she describes (though they probably fed into each other to some degree, no?)

    I agree with you that arousal is a normal reaction to a lot of porn (some of it, maybe not so much. I don’t understand being aroused by depictions of violence, for instance). But the natural biological response is exactly why we are all susceptible to fascination with porn and why church leaders warn against it. I doubt all are susceptible to addiction any more than all people can become drug addicts, but even if he lacks the addiction gene for getting hooked on booze or cocaine, I’d rather my child never try either even though a “high” = a natural response to both.

    I believe in sex-positive feminism as it turns out. Sexuality should empower us and should even serve to augment spirituality. Anything with such power as the human sexual drive, and the way it can strengthen or alienate human bonds, can be a strength or weakness. I don’t know how true pornography could strengthen a marriage, no matter how natural our arousal to it may be. (Here’s hoping that makes sense. I got next to zero sleep last night.)

    Comment by Janet — May 19, 2008 @ 1:58 pm

  25. I’m curious about those who view prn “moderately” or “just for fun or ideas”. I’ll let others go into what it does to the person or their loved ones.

    Think about how who you are supporting. A billion dollar industry that objectifies women and children. An industry that glamorizes violence as sexual. An industry of criminals and criminal acts. And just because you may have viewed it for free (internet), don’t think there were no victims on the production side, nor any profits for the sick minds that created it.

    If you can’t think of any other reason to object, think of whose pockets you are lining. Then try to have a relationship with a real person instead.

    Comment by sofia — May 19, 2008 @ 2:06 pm

  26. It seems to me that the issue with porn and the church being very adamant about mambers not viewing it is because it has the potential to be harmful. To me, it’s the same sort of thing as the word of wisdom: if a person smokes a joint every once in a while, they are not going to die, and maybe no one would even find out, maybe it wouldn’t be “gateway drug” at all. but maybe it would. You just never know. So it’s safer to just stay away from it. I trust the GA and their direction. If the prophet says stay away from it, then that’s what I’ll do. I believe he has our best interests at heart, and has counseled with the lord about it. I am not trying to tell anyone they are wrong if they feel it has a place in their marriage, just that it could potentially be harmful to a marriage and or an individual.

    Comment by mellocello — May 19, 2008 @ 2:09 pm

  27. Hi sofia,

    I’ll take a stab at your request. My hubby got on a porn site that was mainly an ‘advice site’ for men. :) It had all sorts of visuals and forums about how to please women. I’m VERY VERY grateful he did and I do not believe there were victims from this site. I also have occassionally tracked a couple who blog their experiences (with visuals) and have found it both erotic and helpful for me.

    I am against blatant misogynistic porn that has females acting in some time of archeotype. Frankly, we once rented a movie and all I could do is laugh at how obviously absurd the whole thing was (and very unrealistic). I do not pay anything, nor does DH, we just like to investigate things and accept that we each have different turn ons.

    Anyway, I’m not advocating viewing porn on a regular basis in the slightest. I don’t think either he or I have done any research for the last couple of months in fact. But all I am saying is that normal, HEALTHY men and women can and do occassionally look at porn and so long as they don’t become obsessed about it, I don’t think it’s always detrimental to a marriage. Infact, if your DH doesn’t know a thing about women, some porn, ie. the non-misogynistic kind might even help you out. :)

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 2:28 pm

  28. I

    f you can’t think of any other reason to object, think of whose pockets you are lining.

    Nice point, Sofia.

    Comment by Janet — May 19, 2008 @ 2:37 pm

  29. I think the solution offered, at least implicitly here, and elsewhere in the blogosphere, creates the problem, which then must be solved with such serious, life-threatening agony all around (a suicide attempt?)

    I went to Sare’s website and read the Bishop’s comments where he said, to paraphrase poorly, that sexual desire was created by a guy and a girl, most likely engaged, furtively beginning to experiment with the most basic, I don’t know, kissing and stuff. Get a clue people! (Not true for those with a clue already.) Sexuality is like hunger. It’s not taught. It’s just there; that’s what Puberty means. The body moves into that stage no matter what we look at or think about.

    As far as I can tell, when these normal sexual feelings are treated as seriously evil, seriously, then the weird stuff happens. In families and cultures where human anatomy is never pictured, I’m afraid males (and sometimes females) associate normal sexual feelings with intense feelings of Guilt. This is where all that ucky stuff happens (that I honestly didn’t even know about until recently (Hi, Dan Savage)) Sexual pleasure becomes associated with Painful guilt; then for the pleasure you need the guilt.

    How to fix this? Just do what Elise’s parents did–and what I have tried to do–don’t make the human body such a totally off-limits frightening thing–have art in the house that might have some nudity, don’t worry about it. Poof—-when the ideas are desensitized, they don’t have the same huge psychological power.

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 2:40 pm

  30. A little bit more explanation–I think extreme emphasis that viewing of nekkid bodies = Law of Chastity violations actively teaches boys that Sex (and all those fun evil scarey bad wonderful feelings) = two-dimensional images of nekkid ladies. If said boys/men/humans had, rather, grown up with the idea that humans have bodies that are sometimes naked; cuz clothes aren’t glued on, and cuz those darn nekkid bodies are in otherwise really boring museums and those art books that are, by and large, supposed to teach you something and are therefore, implicitly boring, then Sex does not equal pics of naked bodies. Rather it equals, you know, people. (like soylent green) ….. Proorn loses its appeal.

    Nothing was ever made more attractive by being allowed.

    Prrorn is bad because it objectifies people; because the pron industry treats people badly, (as above), for the same reason coffee drinking is bad, etc. (See, still bad, but in a very boring way.)

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 3:25 pm

  31. mellocello said:

    if a person smokes a joint every once in a while, they are not going to die, and maybe no one would even find out, maybe it wouldn’t be “gateway drug” at all. but maybe it would.

    A good tie in to my point. “A harmless joint” is produced in a country controlled by militant cartels. It is smuggled in and sold by criminals who break laws, rob, murder, evade taxes, etc. When you smoke a “harmless joint”, you perpetuate that industry. Same with pornography.

    Elise-
    As far as “not paying for it”… Would you be comfortable sharing details about your marital exploits (with visuals)? Would you want your daughter or son posing for it (On myspace)? Who pays the price for your new ideas? Maybe there’s a way to explore the wonderful relationship between you and your husband without involving a third party.

    Comment by sofia — May 19, 2008 @ 3:27 pm

  32. the feelings aren’t evil, djnn… and even acting outside the bounds of prorpiety isn’t “evil” persay. It’s human. It’s acting on something that is most assuredly present in every human being, in all stages of life.

    The interview you mentioned was, admittedly, a shallow look into the philosophies that surround the sanctions that bishops and the LDS church help to enforce. But you must admit, that acting out sexually is a slippery slope… you get to kissin on the couch and it’s quite easy to gravitate toward petting, etcetera. And if your goal is to avoid those things (and I understand not everyone reading this post might feel that way) then it would probably be wise to avoid the situation.

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 3:28 pm

  33. See, still bad, but in a very boring way

    Ok, THAT was funnnny :)

    I wonder if we did a poll on how members define pornography, what sort off spectrum we’d get. I’ve known intelligent people who think Kate Chopin = porn, an assertion I find discomfittingly bizarre. Nakedness certainly isn’t either a necessary or sole qualification. If it were, I’ve got a porn addiction to the art in Italy ;)

    Comment by Janet — May 19, 2008 @ 3:29 pm

  34. I am thinking along the same lines as mellocello. Both this thread and the accompanying thread have several comments related to addiction. The word of wisdom says that it was given for the weakest among us. D&C 89:3 “Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints”.

    Basically all of the “vices” (alcohol, tobacco, drugs, pornography, gambling, etc.) may not be utterly life-destroying to every single person every single time. Sure, some people can handle a drink every now and then. Other people take one and can’t stop. Some people may be able to view p*rn a time or two without it ruining a marriage. For others, it may destroy the marriage.

    Just because one person has an example of where their husband was able to view p*rn a few times without it destroying their marriage doesn’t mean that p*rn is not harmful. Just because one person can drink alcohol in moderation doesn’t mean that another can’t become an alcoholic.

    Instead of arguing the “merits” of p*rn (just like you could argue the “merits” of alcohol, gambling. etc.), let’s recognize that for some (probably a whole lot), p*rn can become addictive and destructive. I am guessing this is why our prophet counsels so strongly against it. Just like the WoW is given for the weakest among us, I believe the counsel against all these types of potential addictions are given for the same reason.

    Satan seeks to entrap us. Addictions are one thing he uses. Why play with fire? Sure, you might be able to play with a snake for a while, but eventually it will bite. I just don’t see the purpose in “defending” p*rn.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 19, 2008 @ 3:35 pm

  35. djinn,

    so true! My sons get to grow up with some of my sculptures (nekkid ladies) and photographs. I love the female form - (having a harder time trying to find a nice male form but that’s another story).

    I have my best friend’s backside on my wall. I remember when I put it up in my twenties, my bishop at the time couldn’t take his eyes off it when they came to visit. He never told me to take it down though, so ’smile’. Anyway, I’m not as liberal as my mom was growing up. (she had a 10 year rebellion during ERA period with the church in her wiccan era - and later came back) but I will say that my boys are very aware that the human body is wonderful and it’s ok to appreciate it. My husband does plan to speak to them about women (given how clueless he was) and I’m not going to pretend they aren’t going to make out before engagement (I kinda hope they do actually). If they understand the facts of life completely (we have had them watch the Miracle of life complete with its heat radar silhouettes) and know the trouble that comes with going over lines, I feel I’ve done all I can. Another thing I will not do is make them feel guilty for investigating themselves! It is a normal healthy thing in moderation (regardless of what some bishops say) and it’s the guilt that leads to issues. It’s always the guilt that fuels these taboos/addictions. It reminds me of men’s curiousity with men… the only place men can go ‘anonymously’ to look at men (which is normal as I have been curious about women’s bodies too) is on gay porn sites. If they had other venues to see their form, there wouldn’t be this sexual charge to it. I totally agree with your comments.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 3:37 pm

  36. No, I absolutely agree with that part. That fooling around leads to more fooling around. The assertion I disagreed with strongly is that fooling around leads to feeling like you want to fool around, admittedly a fine point, but important. You feel like fooling around because you are a human (not taking any liberties here, I hope.) I am disagreeing with the proposition that by NOT DOING SOMETHING (forgive the caps, please) we can KEEP THE FEELINGS FROM HAPPENING. Not so much. Rather, I think that the focus should be on (as is was not that many years ago in the Mormon church) actions, behaviors; things, you know, that we can control, not on our thoughts, which we cannot.

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 3:38 pm

  37. Asphodel #19 - I’m in the same situation you describe. I’ve been married a couple years to a kind man who is very respectful to me, and who has a “light addiction” to porn. We have a good relationship right now too. I hope he deals with his problem some time soon, and lets me help, but I’m not going to throw out a good marriage.

    Where do spouses get support? I don’t feel like I can talk to anyone in real life about this because it’s my husband’s secret, not mine. I’m not in a crisis; I’d just like to talk to people like Asphodel who can reassure me that my marriage isn’t going to end like all the stories they tell in General Conf.

    Anon #22 makes a comment that illustrates how necessary this conversation is. If finding out that a husband looked at porn six times in his entire life triggered a suicide attempt and serious consideration of divorce, then we’ve really got to do something to stop the over-reaction.

    On the other hand, I think Elise and djinn are confusing the discussion. A porn problem is when your DH looks at porn alone and won’t/can’t quit even though he knows it bothers you. Elise, your DH obviously does not have a porn problem since he does it for you and you don’t mind. djinn, exposing people to hordes of nudity in an effort to make porn boring is, um, an idea, but it doesn’t help spouses deal with porn issues.

    Comment by Wife — May 19, 2008 @ 3:49 pm

  38. djinn-
    We can’t control our thoughts? Hmmm…

    Comment by sofia — May 19, 2008 @ 3:50 pm

  39. That’s my point Janet (a permablogger talked to me, be still my heart); those with a rather expansive view of the human body don’t end up crouched over their computer viewing websites with rather more X’s in their name than may be appropriate. Rather, we’re over here at FMH!

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 3:51 pm

  40. If you can’t think of any other reason to object, think of whose pockets you are lining. Then try to have a relationship with a real person instead.

    I only look at porn on pay-per-view, and then only when I’m staying at a Marriott hotel. That way at least some of what I spent on the porn will make it back to the church by way of tithing on J.W. Marriott’s income and the income of all the other LDS who work at or own stock in the company.

    Comment by Jim-Bob — May 19, 2008 @ 3:55 pm

  41. lol.

    I remember when I was just entering puberty I was interested in every picture of the female body i could find… not because it was arousing, but because I was curious! I agree, djinn, that quashing even curiosity, and telling people that their feelings are wrong and have no productive vent, is counter-productive. My mother was a nurse, and so there were all sorts of nice little diagrams and pictures lying around for me to look at when I wanted to. Pornography? For me, porn is mean to elicit a sexual reaction in someone. But I suppose it could go the other way too.. porn is something that someone uses to elicit a sexual reaction in themselves.

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 4:00 pm

  42. Last comment, I promise; Sofia, if we control our appetites for food too much we become anorexic; if we don’t control them enough, we become fat. Similarly with Seqs; it’s a very fine line to walk. Sexual anorexia exists, as well. I cannot control my sexual thoughts, and I’m a guurl. I can control my sexual actions. I’ve decided not to worry about my thoughts. I suspect this is true of many many people.

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 4:01 pm

  43. Think about how who you are supporting. A billion dollar industry that objectifies women and children. An industry that glamorizes violence as sexual.

    For a minute there I thought you were talking about Hollywood or the advertising industry.

    Comment by jjohnsen — May 19, 2008 @ 4:11 pm

  44. #40 - and we hope he is paying his tithing on that!

    Comment by Abby — May 19, 2008 @ 4:14 pm

  45. There’s a difference between a thought or feeling that pops up occaisionally and what we do to feed that thought. I don’t feel bad about an unconscious thought or feeling unless I let it marinate in my brain all day, week, whatever. I just wondering if you don’t control your thoughts,… who does? ( spooky music in background)

    Comment by sofia — May 19, 2008 @ 4:17 pm

  46. OK, I lied. Why, do you suppose, it turns out that the Catholic Church has so many pedophiles as priests? Were the pedophiles drawn to the priesthood, or were they created by the same process that made them into priests? I’m guessing the latter. What would it be? Perhaps massive amounts of guilt tied to sexual feelings plus confession. The Mormon church should not be walking down that same road. Please.

    Change does happen from the bottom up. I don’t think pedophilia is the outcome in Mormonism, rather, the very obsession (Pron) we’re worried about here. All we (ok, I haven’t attended church for quite awhile but still see myself Mormon, and have a huge Mormon family I worry about) have to do is lighten up a bit. Take your kids to those museums in Italy. Art books; just something to desensitize kids to the physical human body. It’s easy.

    Notice, this has nothing to do with actions.

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 4:17 pm

  47. Speaking of Entertainment and the Media, here is what the “For the Strength of Youth pamphlet says about P*rnography

    Pornography in all its forms is especially dangerous and addictive. What may begin as a curious indulgence can become a destructive habit that takes control of your life. It can lead you to sexual transgression and even criminal behavior. Pornography is a poison that weakens your self-control, changes the way you see others, causes you to lose the guidance of the Spirit, and can even affect your ability to have a normal relationship with your future spouse. If you encounter pornography, turn away from it immediately.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 19, 2008 @ 4:20 pm

  48. That’s the point Sofia; if you think they’re evil, they become unmanageable (or perhaps I’m just OCD.) If you just let them come and go without stressing, they float away.

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 4:24 pm

  49. gotta agree with you, djinn, on being better able to control my actions than my thoughts.

    Every guy I have ever asked about pornography has admitted to viewing it. I don’t remember where I read the statistics (though I’m pretty sure it was on a bloggernacle blog) but something like 99% of men in general view pornography, and 90-ish% of LDS men veiw pornography. The vast majority of them manage to have healthy, loving relationships. The fact that nearly all males look at pornographic material, while only a few become addicted, makes me think there must be something else going on that leads to addiction, whether that be environmental, genetic, or cultural.

    I’m not too bothered by the use of pornography, though I do think the industry almost certainly does abuse women. I’m not sure there’s a way around that–which for me is the biggest sticking point with viewing pornography. I know, I’m ambivalent.

    The number of LDS men who become “addicted” to pornography (and I put addiction in quotation marks because I do think we equate any use with addiction) is staggering. I’ve often wondered how many of those “pornography addicts” aren’t just normal males with healthy sexual appetites, and if by labeling them addicts for viewing anything we do them a disservice. I wonder if we as LDS people create the problem of addiction by treating sexuality, and especially the viewing of erotica, the way we do.

    At the same time, while we may have issues in the LDS population with pornography, we don’t have nearly the problems with infidelity. I sometimes also wonder (and would be curious if others have ever wondered similarly) if by making pornography such a huge taboo we either create an outlet for men who might otherwise seek extramarital affairs, or if we simply weed them out early? I know there always cheating husbands in any population, but in the general population the percentage of husbands who cheat is something like 25% (about 15% of wives cheat). I’m quite sure the percentages are much lower among LDS populations, if for no other reason than if you take a random sampling of individuals and genetically test to see if their biological parents are the people they believe to be their biological parents, you’ll find that 99% of the time they’re right. In the general population, they’ll be mistaken 10% of the time.

    Comment by kristine N — May 19, 2008 @ 4:26 pm

  50. Stephanie - I have a hard time with this logic (I know they’re not your words). Over 90% of males masturbate. I would guess a similar percentage view p*rn. So of course some of these people will end up in “sexual transgression and even criminal behavior.” But that does not indicate a cause and effect correlation. Likewise the old Church nonsense that said masturbation leads to homosexuality.

    I’m still curious to hear someone address why the only LoC guidance YW/RS receive is to “protect yourselves from boys.” No mention of p*orn or masturbation.

    Comment by Joe — May 19, 2008 @ 4:33 pm

  51. Not true, Joe. The “For the Strength of Youth” pamphlet is given to all youth - both young men and young women, and is used in lessons. I use it nearly every time I teach YW. There is no clarification in the pamphlet that indicates it is talking just to the young men regarding p*rn.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 19, 2008 @ 4:35 pm

  52. I agree with a lot of what djinn has been saying. I’ll try to add my perspective having been both in and out of the church (respectfully I hope).

    Pornography/masturbation and the shame associated with it were a huge part of my youth. I took the GAs counsel to heart. This resulted in self-loathing and even suicidal thoughts on occasion. I was vulnerable to this shame because I wanted to do the right thing. It was a big deal for me. I considered myself a sexual addict for a long time.

    Years later, I leave the church for reasons unrelated to pornography (trust me). This gives me the opportunity to disregard the messages from the LDS church and culture that have been telling me that I’m evil, disgusting, unworthy, etc. for viewing pornography and masturbating. I allow myself to take a relaxed attitude on the issue for the first time in my life.

    Just as djinn said, poof, the sexual addiction evaporated. The difference was like night and day. A almost unbearable burden had been lifted. The key ingredient in my addiction was gone: shame.

    This may be hard to swallow, but mainstream LDS ideas about pornography are part of the problem. Taking a more balanced view was key for my recovery. If the LDS people want to overcome their addiction to porn, the first step is to cut out the teachings and attitudes that fuel shame about an innate and beautiful part of what it means to be human.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 19, 2008 @ 4:37 pm

  53. Actually, Kristen, the LDS number is closer to 3% misidentified fathers, still very low, considered with the regular population, where the numbers run between 10% and 25% (looking at studies done in England.)

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 4:38 pm

  54. I want to say sorry in advance because this is off topic. However, it is something that I want to discuss as a member of the church (one who is leaving for a mission very soon actually). Is masturbation wrong or is it okay?? This is something that Ive struggled with for many years now and frankly I just want a straight answer. Some say its vital to mens health and call it an art, others say it leads to porn and homosexuality. One girl who is a member of the church and that I am good friends with it said that she did it for a while and believed it was self abuse. Another friend and member says that she does it and believes that she can be a good member of the church and still do it. I just don’t know what to believe!! I know the church says it is wrong but I also believe that sometimes we need to figure out our own beliefs, even if they are contrary to the church. And honestly I keep going back and forth on whether I think it is wrong or not. Well, please let me know what you guys think, and once again sorry this is off topic but its something I need to know what other members think about and I’m not too keen on asking about it during church.
    - elderm

    Comment by Guest — May 19, 2008 @ 4:41 pm

  55. The main thing is to recognize that even though we are absolutely devoted to our spouses, we all have some turn ons which have nothing to do with our spouses. Whether it’s Angelina, McDreamy, latex, lace or shoes. :) Accepting the fact that your spouse is normal and healthy person and not some deviant who is “evil” makes relationships open and easy.

    Also, the handbook for youth is NOT for adults. I get so bugged when someone tries to tell me to live by it. I’m in my 30’s and not an emotionally immature 15 year old who can’t handle sexuality. It’s made by very sheltered men who probably have a lot of fear in them about others. I personally am of the ‘free range parent’ type who thinks that if I give my kid parameters but not rules, they will learn to navigate and trust themselves.

    Indeed, my husband lived by that handbook up until he was in his thirties and frankly, he was SO MESSED UP thinking everything was bad and being such a pharisee. He had the stupidest rules ever about avoiding temptation and women.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 4:41 pm

  56. Elise, why isn’t “For the Strength of Youth” for adults? Commandments and standards don’t change the older you get. I know it backward and forward, and there isn’t anything in there that I disregard now that I am an adult.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 19, 2008 @ 4:43 pm

  57. Stephanie - sorry, I was generalizing a bit too much. But other than handing out the pamphlet, have you actually discussed p*rn and masturbation with your YW? When was the last time it was discussed in a general broadcast? The statistical gap between males and females is only 30% for these activities, not nearly as binary (boys do, girls don’t) as we’re led to believe.

    Comment by Joe — May 19, 2008 @ 4:44 pm

  58. I don’t know, Joe. I’m guessing it’s not discussed in broadcasts to the YW much because with 1.5 hours per year of broadcasting time, the prophet/YW presidency focuses on what they feel are the most important things to talk about in those times, so maybe p*rn just doesn’t make the cut.

    Also, regarding lessons - the manuals we use are still the old ones from when I was a kid. I pull in FSY whenever I can to make our lessons more up-to-date and relevant.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 19, 2008 @ 4:47 pm

  59. Jonathan, you sound just like my hubby, (*only he is still active). He’s going to write a book for our boys so they know not only is occassional masterbation normal, it’s important to discover yourself. Knowing our luck we will get some pharisee bishop who will object to our sons ability to go on missions because of our teachings.

    With his first wife, they had a ‘family home evening’ on their honeymoon about sex being only celestilal and not temporal. None of this lust for them! He never saw his wife naked, really naked, in 7 years of marriage! He recorded every time he masterbated in his 20’s (like 10 times) and felt great guilt over it. It was all the Church’s teachings about sacredness and wholesomeness blah blah blah. God gave me a nerves and senses and frankly having some rip roaring fun is part of it!

    Too often even young women are led to believe temple marriage sex is so sacred etc etc. that they not only are let down that night by it’s complete awkwardness and laughability, but they don’t feel comfortable screaming ‘GIVE ME MORE!!!”. :) Bottom line: The best bishops I knew had 4 post beds and knew how to use them without guilt and typically their wives were spit fires.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 4:51 pm

  60. I disagree with the idea that a little p*rn is harmless, while an addiction is problematic. This is probably the case with alcohol, but I think p*rn is in a different category. In my opinion, a married person should channel all of his/her (sexual) affections towards his/her spouse. Looking at another person with lust is adultery, according to Jesus. It’s a form of betrayal, unfaithfulness. It makes true intimacy with another 3-dimensional human being more difficult, because you’ve learned to expect an airbrushed image of perfection. In p*rn, women aren’t real, live, intelligent, emotional, subjects. They are there for the gratification of others. It’s dishonest: the women pictured in p*rn are sending the very strong signal to the viewer that the women are sexually available, when in fact, these women don’t really want to have sex with most of the men viewing the picture. Women generally prefer an emotional connection with their sexual partner; this is absent from p*rn. The whole industry is doing a huge disservice to women, and indirectly, to men, too.

    I think it’s o.k. to learn about human anatomy and physiology. It’s o.k. to become educated about sex. Certain books on the subject can give you some good ideas towards developing a mutually satisfying sex life within your marriage. Maybe some LDS people would view these types of books as pornographic. But I feel like there’s a difference. If God were interviewing you about your viewing/reading habits, could you honestly say, “Well, my primary motivation for looking at this was to figure out how to improve my relationship with my spouse?” Elise seems to feel that way, and maybe for her, that’s o.k. But I can’t imagine that I could look at porn and answer that way honestly, and I sure wouldn’t buy that from my husband.

    My opinion is this: Stay far away from it. Completely. When you’re accidentally confronted with an image that is causing you to feel lust, turn away from it. Turn off the computer, or change the channel, or look the other way - whatever you have to do. P*rn will not bless your life.

    Comment by anon — May 19, 2008 @ 4:52 pm

  61. Stephanie - I completely disagree. Standards should change as one gets older and is able to confront new material. I had huge difficulties with this when I was teaching film at BYU. No one wanted to deal with important issues that I felt would lead others to empathy and they felt would lead others to sin. It is called the strength of the YOUTH for a reason. I’m not saying that you, personally, should disregard some of the guidelines in the pamphlet, but expecting others to live up to those same, teenage, rules is not feasible.

    Comment by Whitney — May 19, 2008 @ 4:54 pm

  62. elderm,

    If you take a look at the history of LDS teachings about masturbation, you find that there hasn’t been a unified voice on the issue. In the 1920s and 30s, the church even recognized that shame in connection with repression of masturbation was a mental health issue. Official church materials suggested parental guidance rather than repression.

    It seems to me that this is one case where the philosophies of men (i.e. repression of masturbation because it was believed at the time to cause insanity) got introduced into LDS doctrine.

    I have a post about it with more information, if you’re curious or want sources. The post was based on Historical Development of New Masturbation Attitudes in Mormon Culture.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 19, 2008 @ 4:56 pm

  63. Stephanie,

    Correct me if I”m wrong but it also says french kissing and getting horizontal on dates is wrong. I don’t know about you, but my hubby and I try to do that on dates as often as possible. :)

    My point is…. I think the Brethren tell you to walk as FAR AWAY from the line as possible because it’s true that some may fall. For some it works, but for others it’s pretty strict. Kind of like telling EVERYONE not to have a Coke. Anyway I never fell off the line, but walked very close to it indeed. I made out all the time and got to know myself (mirrors are great) and frankly, I think my husband and I have a very healthy marriage. My husband followed the handbook to the tee (not even kisssing until after engagement with his first wife) and boy, was their relationship messed up and trying to be so holy it failed miserably.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 4:56 pm

  64. Guest…

    I’m having someone post about what you brought up, on my blog on Thursday.

    I don’t think anyone can really answer your question but you. How do you feel, and how is your spirituality?

    I do know that all, or almost all men deal with a tendency to masturbate…

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 4:56 pm

  65. Sorry… didn’t mean to be gender-centric…

    women do, too. I admit that I myself have even done this on occasion. (How’s that for coming out? Lol. I think all my shame was used up when my personal life ended up on the front page of all the local newspapers.)

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 4:59 pm

  66. Elise,

    I totally agree. I wasted a lot of energy fighting a demon that I had created for myself (based on common LDS views). That energy could have been better spent actually doing good in the world. And my married sex life would have been even more fun in the beginning. :)

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 19, 2008 @ 5:04 pm

  67. Not to mention that masturbation is pretty much required by men to keep their prostates healthy. This is just a phase in Mormonism. It’ll pass. I hope.

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 5:05 pm

  68. I feel that I should address Wife; disconnecting the P*rn from feeling of shame may help your husband, too. That is, don’t tell him you think that he’s evil for watching it, rather, tell him other things; it makes you feel ugly because your breasts (can I say that) aren’t big enough, you don’t look like those girls so you feel uncomfortable — this is something I have actually done myself, ’cause I actually felt that way. It helped. Not viewing on the part of the spouse then becomes a kindness, an offering. It breaks the shame cycle.

    Comment by djinn — May 19, 2008 @ 5:14 pm

  69. Elise, FSY is pretty clear about clarifying what it is talking about. It says, “Before marriage . . . ” at the beginning of the paragraph that says not to passionate kiss or lie on top of each other.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 19, 2008 @ 5:17 pm

  70. sare-
    Thank you so much telling me about your blog, unfortunately I will be leaving for my mission on wednesday so I will not be able to view it. To answer your question, I go through phases of where I think it is wrong and then Ill think it is okay. I recently went through the temple and have stopped for a small amount of time because I didnt want to feel guilty in the temple. However, most of the time I feel it is okay, I’ve never ever had a problem with porn so I dont believe it leads to porn, although thats just me and it could be very different for other men. When I went to see my bishop about it he referred me to a member of the stake presidency in my college ward who was a physician. Long story short, the counselor of the of the stake presidency prescribed me two different prescriptions to basically kill my sex drive and make me sleep all the time. This experience made me very angry at the church but I got over it and have decided to serve my mission. Anyways, thats my history concerning the subject, I just don’t whether I should stop or even if it is truly wrong.

    -elderm

    Comment by Guest — May 19, 2008 @ 5:19 pm

  71. Stephanie,

    I was divorced earlier and I do not think the advice any leader should tell me is to follow the handbook for youth! I was in my 20’s and old enough to handle myself - and french kissing is a joy of dating thank you! :) it’s a handbook for YOUTH and not adults.

    Either way, it’s still the ‘extreme’ Taliban type of rulebook that I would take with a grain of salt as made by men who probably have never walked in my shoes period. I can tell you my daughters and sons will not feel shame from me regarding their healthy maturation. I would hope that any leaders my children get in the Church realize that they are not the guilt ‘moral code’ enforcers for my children. I will deprogram them the minute they get home from any Taliban-type lectures.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 5:29 pm

  72. Elise,
    Coke= p*rnography? Wow.

    What handbook says not to kiss your girlfriend?

    Comment by mami — May 19, 2008 @ 5:33 pm

  73. lol.. Mami,

    I distinctly remember that ‘passionate kissing’ i.e. french kissing was an OUT in the handbook. In fact, I read it when I was 16 and immediately thought they were trying to say I should kiss like my Grandma.

    I spoke to my Grandparents about it actually and they informed me they had NEVER frenched kissed at all as it was ‘lustful and degrading’! HA. It most people from the generation that wrote that book have very different tolerance levels of what is good/bad than I have.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 5:36 pm

  74. Elise, it doesn’t actually say “french kissing” - it says “passionate kissing”.

    That’s fine if you don’t want to use it. But, have you actually read the new one (not the pink one when I was a youth) before you start discrediting it and the “men who probably have never walked in your shoes”?

    Thank you for the veiled reference at calling me a Taliban-type lecturer. Amusing, really.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 19, 2008 @ 5:36 pm

  75. I crossed that comment. Sorry, Elise, you obviously do know that it says passionate kissing, which can mean a great variety of things OTHER than french kissing.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 19, 2008 @ 5:37 pm

  76. Elise,
    I am also torubled by your post blaming your husband’s first marriage faliure on the church. Dude–we’ve all been taught sex is sacred and how many people have not seen their spouses naked? That’s pretty extreme sexual disfunction. Lack of p*rn is not the problem, and neither is the Law of Chastitiy.

    Comment by mami — May 19, 2008 @ 5:38 pm

  77. Mami,

    I wasn’t advocating seeing your girlfriend/boyfriend naked, but your spouse. Anyway, because both my hubby and his first wife took such a literalist view of the Church’s stance on sex and sacredness that it really affected the whole marriage. Top that off with my hubby’s guilt about masterbation and such from his youth (which was fed from the Church and leaders) that he and wife were too ‘proper’ to research sexuality and eachother’s bodies. You’d be surprised how many LDS couples have no clue about the other’s anatomy or what may actually feel good. (this is especially true about women’s bodies)

    I do think the Church (not the Gospel) is very wrong in the way it feeds guilt and harm regarding puberty and normal healthy discovery.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 5:49 pm

  78. taliban-like? woah.

    Comment by mellocello — May 19, 2008 @ 6:11 pm

  79. Elise, I’m somewhat troubled by this phrase in one of your justifications for sex without boundaries, “God gave me a nerves and senses and frankly having some rip roaring fun is part of it!”

    God also gave you nerves that have nicotine receptors and receptors for other, harder drugs (the effect of methamphetamine on the dopamine receptors in the brain, for example). Does that mean that God intends us to use those nerves for “rip roaring fun”? Meth use, smoking, and other drugs are okay because we have the physiology ot derive pleasure from those?

    Granted sex with your spouse is ordained of God. But, it’s a stretch to say that sexual stimulation in any form is ordained of God simply because we have the hardware.

    I’m may also be having a hard time separating your defense of p*rn and masturbation from your denigration of Church authority.

    Comment by Bull Moose — May 19, 2008 @ 6:22 pm

  80. Bull Moose,

    My hubby and I don’t delve into every realm.. we stay where we are comfortable enough to feel safe with the Lord. I think perhaps I sound as though I’m the opposite of a prude, but as I mentioned once before I’m really kind of prudish :D Anyway, I never had such a bad time with any of my Church leaders until I met my hubby and realized how repressed he was.

    Now granted he came from a family that was told in the 80’s by local leaders that a lot of stuff was ‘wrong’ and would bar them from the temple (untrue by the way) and the official church doctrine now is to stay out of the bedroom. But here’s the question… if the church says they don’t get involved in the bedroom between husband and wife, why in the world would they claim that porn or masturbation is sinful? What about dual masturbation, or watching a movie together?

    anyway… I’m just saying that all too often people throw the baby out with the bathwater and in the end it’s the guilt that a lot of bishops and stake presidents lay on young men and some women that causes sexual dysfunction in later life. As for the notion that I denigrate the Church leaders - I really LOVE the gospel, but I acknowledge that it is run by old men who have had most likely a typical Utah mormon experience and have never had any time to deal with complexities of grey. There’s is a world of black and white and it might work for them, but to assume it is a square hole works for all our members is very insular and alienating. I see things in grey.. always have.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 6:36 pm

  81. wow, elderm.

    I think that would make me angry, too.

    I think we all just do our very best. I personally think it’s possible for people (men and women) to fully live the law of chastity, but that it is hard. And that messing up doesn’t mean you’re evil, just like I said human. Perfection is a journey… yada yada yada. :)

    Good luck on your mission!!! You’ll be in my area! Wish I could send a care package but I doubt that if I addressed it elderm it would get to you. :)

    Comment by sare — May 19, 2008 @ 6:39 pm

  82. I have to admit, I started reading this one on the commute home, and while some of the comments were really encouraging, others really brouhgt me down. I am a recovering porn and masturbation addict. I have been for years. It has been and remains a painful journey to recovery. I have met so many wonderful people in the process of healing, many of whom have had struggles far worse than mine. To look at me or listen to me you’d never know I was an addict. I’m like many others that way. I have been encouraged by those who recognize the seriousness of this problem for individuals and society, and who simultaneously seek to heal both victims and victimisers, with tough love admittedly some times being needed.. I have been discouraged by those who seem annoyed at the Prophets for pointing out its dangers, and by those who seem to think that some indulging in it is somehow acceptable. Even if you do not slip into addiction yourself, I can testify from painful personal experience, that permissiveness feeds the weaknesses of many others, and the victimization of far more. I have been a victim and victimizer in this. I have hated myself and learned to see my own worth through the pain I have caused and felt. Yes, a healthier attitude towards sexuality is needed. No, there is not a place for porn in that healthy attitude. Take it from someone whose addiction started with a sex self-help book read in what should have been a totally safe and acceptable environment even to many conservatively-minded folks. There is an ocean of pain here, so many of us are drowning in it and hurting others even though we don’t want to, please don’t throw another bucket of filth in it. Even if you are one of the lucky ones who can do it without getting yourself dirty, others do from the ripple effect. That’s all.

    Comment by anonymous for this one — May 19, 2008 @ 7:35 pm

  83. Wife (#37),

    Where to find support as a spouse can be a tough thing. When I first learned about my then-boyfriend’s problem, I went to a support group at BYU (I was an undergrad there at the time). The group was mostly wives, and there was a wide range of situations there: everything from a woman who had recently left her husband because of porn and many other (unspecified) terrible things, to a couple of women whose husbands had looked at porn maybe once or twice in the last year, to women who had just learned a week before about their husbands’ issues. There was even a woman in her 50s or 60s who had been dealing with this for 30 years. I heard some scary stories and some reassuring ones, and the group did give me some things to think about in deciding whether I wanted to get married to this man (I did). But I actually stopped going after that one semester, because I found that the group was making me think about it more than I wanted to–it was like a weekly dose of depression. Now that I’ve kind of made peace with my situation, I’d rather not wallow in it.

    That said, if you don’t have access to BYU groups, I don’t know where you can go. If it’s really disrupting your life, I might recommend going to a counselor yourself (I haven’t done this but would consider it if I feel myself getting too obsessive and down about it). Talking to a trusted friend would be great, but I don’t really have anyone that I feel comfortable talking to about the issue–I’m not really looking for pity or for someone to criticize my husband (plus, he’d die if he knew I was telling my friends). So, I guess we’re left with sites like this. Thank you, fMh! :-)

    Comment by Asphodel — May 19, 2008 @ 7:44 pm

  84. I always wondered about that “french-kissing” and “passionate kissing” thing as well, especially in light of the CES speaker who spoke at youth conference and refered to the former as “celestial kissing” so long as you kept an angel in your head. Apparently the angel would fly out your ears if your head were put in a horizontal position ;)

    The conclusion I came to was that two people could be kissing and one could be breaking the law of chastity and the other not. If one were thinking well beyond *kissing* then I thought that’s what the “passionate” referred to. Could be quite wrong about my reading of the SOTY pamphlet, but it seemed too bizarre to consider marrying someone without, you know, really kissing them.

    Comment by Janet — May 19, 2008 @ 8:05 pm

  85. A good tie in to my point. “A harmless joint” is produced in a country controlled by militant cartels. It is smuggled in and sold by criminals who break laws, rob, murder, evade taxes, etc. When you smoke a “harmless joint”, you perpetuate that industry. Same with pornography.

    Wow, that is such crap. My weed has nothing to do with militant cartels or smuggling. Its grown by some dude in Queen Anne (I kid! sort of…but you should remember that marijuana is legal in many countries, and is legal here for medical use. Don’t believe everything you see on TV).

    Your point about pron is equally crap.

    And am I the only one that thinks Elderm’s stake prez who prescribed him drugs cause he masturbated should maybe lose his medical license or something? I mean, there is no way that is ok, right? What were the drugs?

    Don’t worry about the masturbation kid. My husbands mission prez actually had to have a big meeting on it during his mission - he was having so many missionaries ‘confess’ about it feeling all kinds of guilty that he finally told the whole mission to quit talking to him about it because its OK as long as they weren’t taking too long in the shower and being late, haha.

    And, has anyone else seen Forgetting Sarah Marshall? There is a great character that is in Hawaii on his honeymoon and is very religious and so he and his wife are struggling with sex. It is very funny. In the end he gets some education, I think many mormon men and women could use some too. Not like, where the c*** is, though thats a start. But, like…HOW to do it. And how to make it feel good and be fun.

    The church is making much ado about nothing with porn, and as soon as both husbands and wives lose the shame it will quit ruining marriages.

    The whole thing sort of reminds me of how some americans react when they go to the beach in France. Its just sort of sad.

    Comment by veritas — May 19, 2008 @ 8:40 pm

  86. Thanks, Asphodel. That’s kind of what I thought, that there isn’t really a place to talk. I don’t think I need to see a counselor. I wish there was a place to talk about it. But even places like FMH don’t work very well. You can’t bring up the problems surrounding porn without someone like Elise beating her dead hobby horse about how neat porn really is. And Elise can’t just have her say and then let the discussion go on, oh no, she’s got to be every third comment on the thread. Elise - we get it, you love porn and want your husband to look at it. Want to go away so the rest of us can talk now? We’re not all going to say, “gosh, Elise! Thanks for enlightening us! We totally agree now that porn is the neatest thing ever!” no matter how much you keep posting over and over and over and over. Can you not accept that you are a totally weird situation? I mean, how many women tell their husband to go look at porn? My DH did it all on his own for many years before we even met. I even suggested he show me some porn (see how open-minded I am?) and he flatly refused.

    djinn - thanks for the advice. I haven’t tried shaming him at all when I found it. I asked him to talk to me about it and he won’t say a word. I told him how his porn made me feel (sexually inadequate and ugly). He applies all the shame on his own. I think he’s really a good guy, and I told him so.

    Anyway, other than the porn, my DH and I have a good relationship. I try and ignore the porn, and he makes that pretty easy to do. I worry about the slippery slope thing, though. Is he going to get worse and worse? I hope not, because I can handle what’s going on now, but I don’t want it to get worse.

    Comment by Wife from comment #37 — May 19, 2008 @ 9:27 pm

  87. wow… such an attack. I wasn’t saying anything you claim I’m saying at all. I think those who actually read what I wrote (like John and Djinn) understand I’m simply saying not ALL porn (and again it’s all about what you define as porn) is ‘evil, bad’ etc. etc. I’m really taken back by your viscious comments on me, but either way I wish you the best.

    Comment by Elise — May 19, 2008 @ 9:50 pm

  88. This thread is absurd. The notion that pictures of a naked woman causes all sorts of deleterious effects while looking at an actual naked women AND having sex with her doesn’t is ludicrous. Many of the views expressed here display an extremely unhealthy view of sex. It also displays a huge ignorance of human behavior.

    For example, to suggest that looking at any porn is harmful and causes viewing increasingly hardcore material is as untrue as the equally absurd gateway theory of anything. Were this true, so few males would be looking at soft core erotica, the market wouldn’t exist.

    I’m also annoyed by the ignorant statement that pornography “objectifies” women. By that standard any time I look at my wife in lust when she steps out of the shower I’m objectifying her. Heck, if I simply admire an innocent picture of my wife, I’m objectifying her. (Perhaps, I also stole her soul with the camera.)

    A bigger problem is that nobody can even define “objectify” in any way that doesn’t include just about every human endeavor. For example, I was hired by my company because of my programming skills, not because they care about me as a human being. By the standards here, I’ve been objectified.

    Many of the anecdotes listed here aren’t about “porn addiction” at all. They are about other disorders of which any obsessive-compulsive disorder could be manifested. Thanks largely to the LDS church, though, all sorts of aberrant behavior can be blamed on porn and be excused. (A man can confess just about any deviant sexual behavior, but as long as he adds that he’s “addicted to porn” he is forgiven and even pitied. This isn’t made up; idiot GAs have used this very example in talks!)

    Here’s another news flash to many of you women whose husbands are “addicted” to porn–they look at porn because it expresses what you won’t give. They look at porn because you lack passion and imagination. They look at porn because it has women who are comfortable with their own sexuality, women who wouldn’t treat their partner’s sex drive as a perversion.

    One last question; how many of you who are critical of your husband’s porn viewing, fail to examine your own hobbies or even obsessions which irritate your husband?

    Comment by Jason — May 19, 2008 @ 10:15 pm

  89. djinn (39): Aw, the flattery :)

    Yeah, maybe we should do such a poll. But how would we word it? “Which of the following count as pornography: 1) Hustler 2) Playboy 3) Nabakov 4) Kate Chopin 5) any depiction of any human being that hints at the existence of sexual anatomy, including women in pants :)

    veritas–really? You’d compare over-reacting to nude beaches to the opposition of photographs which show men getting sexual pleasure from beating women while engaging in intercourse? Hmm. That’s weird. I agree that we as a people tend to over-qualify things as porn and we go coo coo for cocoa puffs when any nudity shows up anywhere, but some porn *is* worth getting all upset about because some of it is, you know, actually porn. And not soft porn either, but the kind which brings to a focus pretty much every nasty thing cultures can do to women on the opposite side of the spectrum from the burkah.

    Or are you just comparing how Mormons will often see non-porn (ala nude beaches) as porn and break out the fire engines for any heat at all? If that’s your argument, then I agree.

    Comment by Janet — May 19, 2008 @ 10:55 pm

  90. Veritas- The pills were a sleeping pill and an anti-depressant. I guess anit-depressants usually have that affect on men. Whats interesting to me is that that stake presidents counselor also told me that he had used this “technique” on other guys my age. At that I point I calmly told him that I did not think that was appropriate and left, although inside I was so angry. I actually did think about calling him out on what he was doing, but its not my place to judge and he was trying to help me.

    Jonathan Blake- Thank you for posting that link of the timeline and that article, I found it interesting and I hope that someday masturbation will be considered normal and healthy in the church for both genders.

    Sare- If you can find out somehow who I am and really send me a package in the mtc, that would probably be the coolest thing ever. I am also very curious by what you meant with the front page if the paper thing?? Also, thank you for “coming out” its nice to know that other mormons masturbate.

    Comment by Elderm — May 19, 2008 @ 11:04 pm

  91. Elderm (you wanker, you),

    A physician who prescribes anti-depressant medication (many of which suppress libido) to “treat” masturbation as if it were an illness is committing malpractice and would jeopardize his license were this practice exposed. No doubt an MD unethical or deluded enough to misuse medication in that manner would also be willing to lie about it, though, so negative consequences would be unlikely.

    Just when I thought I’d heard it all. WOW!!!!!

    Comment by MikeInWeHo — May 19, 2008 @ 11:31 pm

  92. Jason, your comment sounds like a confession and justification for p*rn. Your comment displays a huge ignorance of the dangers of p*rn and its deleterious effects.

    Sorry to be so rude, I guess you just hit a nerve considering that it seems this post is meant to help people talk about p*rn problems and how to deal with them. Your condemnation of wives with husbands who look at p*rn (Here’s another news flash to many of you women whose husbands are “addicted” to porn–they look at porn because it expresses what you won’t give. They look at porn because you lack passion and imagination. They look at porn because it has women who are comfortable with their own sexuality, women who wouldn’t treat their partner’s sex drive as a perversion.) doesn’t help the wives who are actually dealing with the problem. You are essentially saying, “It’s your own fault!” which is exactly untrue and accusatory. In fact, I find it PATHETIC.

    Considering the official position of the church on p*rn is this:

    Pornography is any material depicting or describing the human body or sexual conduct in a way that arouses sexual feelings. It is distributed through many media, including magazines, books, television, movies, music, and the Internet. It is as harmful to the spirit as tobacco, alcohol, and drugs are to the body. Using pornographic material in any way is a violation of a commandment of God: “Thou shalt not . . . commit adultery . . . nor do anything like unto it” (D&C 59:6). It can lead to other serious sins. Members of the Church should avoid pornography in any form and should oppose its production, distribution, and use.

    could we discuss this in terms of that? Instead of continually defending the indefensible?

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 7:00 am

  93. One last thing, Jason, those women in the p*rn who “are comfortable with their own sexuality” are airbrushed actresses! Comparing your wife to that is like comparing my husband to Superman - it’s a myth.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 7:01 am

  94. Stephanie,

    I agree with you about a lot of porn out there. The women look vacant and fake in every way. Be careful to completely generalize however because I know the sites my hubby checked out were two normal and average women trying to help guys figure stuff out. It’s not always plastic dolls… some sites (especially sites made by people trying to have discussions on ideas and stuff) are just ordinary women and men.

    Comment by Elise — May 20, 2008 @ 7:25 am

  95. jason, your over-generalizations of why men look at porn make me angry, to say the least. If only us wives would be more imaginative and comfortable with our sexuality, that would get men to stop looking at porn? I think not. Maybe for some, that is the reason, but I know from experience that is not EVERY man’s reason, nor probably even most men’s reason. There are so many commenters on here who seem like they understnad the fundamentals of mormonism, but the testimony of a living prophet who is directed by God seems to be lacking. The prophet has told us to stay away form it. What more do you need to hear?

    Comment by mellocello — May 20, 2008 @ 8:17 am

  96. Elderm–of course we can’t judge another’s soul, but sometimes we do have to point out abusive action (just as Sare’s bishop, I believe, realized that her husband’s admission of attempted murder had to be dealt with by civic as well religious authorities). A doctor who is prescribing an addictive substance in order to curtail actions which 1) the medical community does not hold inherently problematic or in anyway indicative of disease–unless present in very large dimensions– and 2) could be treated non-medically is abusing his position of medical authority. And a church authority who makes medical decisions for his parishioners abuses his ecclesiastical authority. I think you’d be right to call such people out.

    Certainly chronic masturbation and insomnia can exist as a symptom of depression, so cases thereby probably exist in which anti-depressants and sleeping pills constitute an ethical and reasonable approach to the over-reaching problem. But if you get the idea doctor (or religious authority) is blanket prescribing a drug to anybody who tells him they have ever masturbated? That’s really really wrong and as MikeInWeHO says, a violation of medical ethics. It would be FINE and good to expose him.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 8:46 am

  97. p.s. Elderm, I forgot to wish you good luck on your mission! Few things can focus growth, pain, and joy like a mission.

    I thought the following might help you: the MTC is an amazing experience, fraught with emotional and spiritual highs as well as, for most of us, guilt over even the smallest indiscretions. I “confessed” a total non-issue to my ecclesiastical authority and was told not to look with at my actions with a microscope when plain view worked perfectly well, that too much introspection could start a guilt cycle run by Satan rather than God, inasmuch as said belly-button gazing might cause an introspective person like me to assume I was incapable of serving as a messenger of hope. I think that leader was onto something. We all sin. We’re fallen beings. The atonement means that we don’t have to bash our heads into walls over that fact, however. Instead we can deal with life as it comes, repent if we mess up, and carry on. If you do believe masturbation is a sin and you slip up, then just take it to God. He’s pretty cool about helping out.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 9:02 am

  98. Elise, I am not interested in classifying p*rn or judging your husband’s use of it. I think the church’s official definition (Pornography is any material depicting or describing the human body or sexual conduct in a way that arouses sexual feelings. is a pretty good one.

    I also am not going to disagree with the church’s stance on p*rn.

    Using pornographic material in any way is a violation of a commandment of God . . . Members of the Church should avoid pornography in any form and should oppose its production, distribution, and use.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 9:06 am

  99. Jason said:

    Here’s another news flash to many of you women whose husbands are “addicted” to porn–they look at porn because it expresses what you won’t give. They look at porn because you lack passion and imagination. They look at porn because it has women who are comfortable with their own sexuality, women who wouldn’t treat their partner’s sex drive as a perversion.

    When my husband told me he had a porn addiction, I couldn’t believe it. I was a former international model (Tall, fit body, and legs for miles). I had been frustrated in our marriage because I wanted intimacy more than he did. I was definitely not a prude nor uncomfortable with anything he wanted to try- unless it involved porn or pornographic movies (which he did try to turn on during sex). I couldn’t believe that the women in the pictures had some hold on him that I didn’t. If someone looked on from the outside, I think they wouldn’t believe it either. Things are good now (16 yrs later), but I wanted you to know that your generalization was wrong in our relationship.

    Comment by anonplease — May 20, 2008 @ 9:22 am

  100. Stephanie– I’ve got to jump in on the definition issue. Don’t you see a problem with the quotation above in that it actually doesn’t offer any real parameters at all? A lug wrench probably arouses sexual feelings in a 15 year old boy (um, paraphrase of *Buffy*). Some people find novels like *The Grapes of Wrath* “pornographic” by the definition offered by the church. I’m guessing those who drafted the statement wished for individuals to look at the issue on a personal basis–in other words, if reading TGOW makes you want to cheat on your husband, it’s porn for you and should be avoided by you. One person’s response to a given text or photograph, however, cannot render it pornographic. That’s a gigantic leap in inductive reasoning and leads to very bad censorship insanity. The church’s definition thus works very well on a personal level for those interested in keeping themselves away from prurient stuff, but not very well in a discussion which seeks some boundaries and perhaps a note of objective clarity.

    Intent matters. If the sole purpose of a photo is to arouse warped sexual feelings (I’d argue tha,–and monetary gain I suppose–is the only intent of photos of people engaging in violent sex, for example. But all “the author is dead” rhetoric in the world cannot make something inherently pornographic just because someone’s sexual feelings were evoked in response to viewing it. If we go down the purely subjective road you suggest in defining things for society as well as individuals defining things for themselves, we really might as well blame JD Salinger for the death of John Lennon.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 9:39 am

  101. Just to clarify, Elise, that means that I am not going to say, “What your husband is using is p*rn and is a sin”. I am also not going to say, “What your husband is using is not p*rn and is perfectly fine”. It’s just not my place to say either way.

    I will candidly admit that I am looking for materials to help me spice up my marriage a bit. It’s tricky. My husband and I went to a s*x shop to see if we could find something fun, but we felt sick inside the store, so we left. I don’t want to purchase or support p*rn, so I’m just being careful in where I look. Someone on here (Artemis?) suggested a book that looks interesting, so I bought it (”And They Were Not Ashamed”). Haven’t read it yet.

    Anyways, my point is that the church defines p*rn as materials that arouse sexual feelings. I don’t think a National Geographic with n*ked people in it is p*rn. I also don’t think a missionary serving in South America who sees a woman whip out her boob to feed a baby is guilty of viewing p*rn. But, if he got off on it, maybe so. I think Janet? said in another comment that p*rn may be in the eye of the beholder. So, again, I am not your husband’s judge. And gratefuly so. I judge myself enough - not interested in judging anyone else.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 9:39 am

  102. I think many of the people who have commented from different sides of the pr0n issue in this thread agree more than not, but are getting caught up in semantics and stereotypes about pornography that cause different reactions.

    As one who has had a lot of exposure to pr0nography over the years, it may be helpful to mention that there are as many types of pr0n as there are breakfast cereals in the supermarket. Some are violent and abusive; some portray illegal activity (rape, incest, etc.); some revel in adultery or other socially deviant behaviors; some promote a casual attitude about sexual relationships (multiple partners, hook ups, etc.); some belittle women, treating them like animals that can and should be ordered around; some idealize unrealistic female and male forms, creating self-image anxiety for people; some exploit (mostly young) women for gain in irresponsible ways. Other types of pr0n highlight couples in a committed relationship in mind, and encourage mutual exploration and communication; some types empower women to express themselves sexually; some titillate and provoke through covering up; some engage the mind as well as the body; some celebrate the emotional connection between men and women; some pr0n is created to highlight the aesthetic beauty of the natural body as an artform; some types encourage the development of a spiritual facet to sexual expression.

    The point is, there are many types of pr0n, many of which can be detrimental for the soul, but to say that all pr0n fits into the same category is unfair the individual who uses types of pr0n from the second grouping above because it groups them with sadists, misogynists, the insensitive, the selfish, the chauvanists. If 90% of LDS men have viewed or currently view pr0n, my guess is that the large portion of pr0n that is used by LDS men and women are in the second group. To assume that the “softer” stuff leads inevitably toward the “hard” stuff is inaccurate. In my experience, secretive use of pr0n at unhealthy levels of use, even addiction occurs only as underlying environmental, social, or work-related stresses trigger its increased use. And even in these circumstances, it usually would not lead the person to disregard their aversions to inhumane, unethical, disrespectful treatment of others in their search for ever more salacious types of pr0n.

    Above all, self-consciousness and relationship-consciousness are the key. The body has parts and passions that are healthy and normal, God-given even. They are to be used, but not abused. Understanding one’s own mental, physical, emotional, and even spiritual responses to sex, and extending that understanding to his or her partner as both an individual and a member of a co-partnership is one of the great adventures of married life. Sometimes that adventure may include seeing and reading things that enable us to learn and explore. Inevitably we will expose ourselves to things that are not good. But would you want to forgo the search simply because of the risk? That would be like never eating at a restaurant because of the risk of food poisoning.

    Comment by Observer — May 20, 2008 @ 9:47 am

  103. Comparing your wife to that is like comparing my husband to Superman - it’s a myth.

    It’s not myth, it’s fiction. Do you avoid all other forms of fiction as well, because Iron Man was a great movie that lied to me about men’s ability to build suits of armor that can fly.

    Comment by jjohnsen — May 20, 2008 @ 9:49 am

  104. When I went to see my bishop about it he referred me to a member of the stake presidency in my college ward who was a physician. Long story short, the counselor of the of the stake presidency prescribed me two different prescriptions to basically kill my sex drive and make me sleep all the time.

    Ah, yes. One of many downsides to a volunteer clergy.

    Comment by jjohnsen — May 20, 2008 @ 9:50 am

  105. Stephanie– That book you bought is a good one. I’ve never thought something that’s intended to help couples solidify their marriage via sexual suggestions/information counted as porn (see definition problem above). The TWNA text is tasteful and I think even my grandma wouldn’t think it’s porn. Here’s hoping you guys find it helpful!

    You might also try some romantic movies. It’s such a staid and boring suggestion tjat we sometimes overlook it, but honestly, and maybe this is a woman thing, but I can’t imagine a skin flick that leaves nothing to the imagination as all that spicy anyhow–it seems almost medical and cold. But Cinema Paridisio? Yum! Or heck, even Out of Africa (sad, but so stinking romantic in a variety of ways.) I heard there was a sex shop in Provo which aimed to be tasteful and geared towards married clientele of the LDS faith. I have no clue if it’s a silly shop or not, but maybe they have a web site? Artemis’ sex thread also had links to Christian sex sites, which I assume err on the conservative side.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 9:58 am

  106. No, jjohnsen, I don’t avoid all fiction. But I also don’t look at characters in movies as a realistic portrayal of how things are. I don’t say to my husband, “_________ in a movie did this, so you should, too”. It’s a movie! He’s an actor!

    So, let’s put Jason’s comment into perspective. He said women in p*rn “are comfortable with their own sexuality”. Really? How would I know that? They are ACTING. To say to your wife, “Well, _________ in a p*rn flick likes it. You should, too.” is just stupid.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 10:24 am

  107. Janet, in general, I agree (#100). This is a good forum for sharing our own ideas of what constitutes p*rn. But, I don’t personally feel comfortable declaring whether it is my opinion that Elise’s husband is looking at p*rn or not. I don’t have the information or the inspiration of the spirit to know. I don’t stand in his shoes. But, I do think the guideline given by the church is helpful.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 10:28 am

  108. Observer,

    You have said exactly what I’ve been trying to say. :) I think my husband and I are in the second category and hate that there is a generalization and label that is associated with such a broad base.

    It’s very dangerous to ‘jump’ into the victim/confess role I think, unless there really is a serious problem with things that feel dark to your soul. Nothing I do in this regard feels dark to my soul but I view indeed items some LDS would consider porn. We have items purchased from shops that we felt were fine - and that’s the point, it’s up to us.

    I have a friend who bought a ‘toy’ for his wife because he wanted to spice things up and help her enjoy sex. She accused him of being a deviant and almost left him over the fact he bought it. Even though he dropped the matter, for the next 10 years she was a ‘victim’ to his ‘perversions’ and punished him.

    I’m simply saying we should accept that all of us have sides we seldom show and when your spouse does show you more about what makes them tick, what they like or would like to try with you, we should be careful not to condemn and use the Church as the rationale for such condemnation.

    Comment by Elise — May 20, 2008 @ 10:32 am

  109. I am a recovering porn and masturbation addict. I have been for years. It has been and remains a painful journey to recovery.

    People who believe this are the ones that I wish would hear my story the most.

    I mentioned shame, but forgot to mention its partner, fear. These two ingredients were the core of my addiction. There are those who are truly addicted to sex and porn; some kinds of porn can be truly destructive, but in my experience, they can only do their worst damage in the presence of these two.

    Unfortunately, church leaders have said many things to make us afraid of porn as if one look is all it takes to put us on the path to becoming abandoners of family, child molesters, and serial rapists. They have also said many things that can make us ashamed of our own sexuality and the natural expression thereof (e.g. masturbation).

    For those who will explain away Brigham Young’s racism or Joseph Smith’s polygamy (I was once one of these), the statements of church leaders pose a serious threat because these strict adherents to the statements of Mormon prophets will not disagree with these messages that engender shame and fear. Their belief in the infallibility of prophetic decree forces them to accept the leaders’ opinions as if it came from God. I submit that—like others have said—these sexually repressive statements are the products of LDS leaders’ cultural background, not revelations from God. They are the equivalent of Brigham Young’s racism.

    There is hope for recovery for most of those LDS men and women who have pornography and masturbation problems. The hope lies in realizing that their desire for masturbation and pornography wasn’t wrong. If they can accept that, then the fires of obsession can be quenched in self love and acceptance. They can then get on with living a loving, fulfilling life with a healthier, more balanced view of sexuality.

    That has been my experience.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 20, 2008 @ 10:40 am

  110. Observer, I think the major factor here is whether or not the material itself causes arousal. The church’s definition (for the third time) says “Pornography is any material depicting or describing the human body or sexual conduct in a way that arouses sexual feelings.“

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 10:43 am

  111. For the record, I was nodding my head in agreement with you, Jason, right up until the paragraph that started “Here’s another news flash to many of you women…”. If you could have ended a couple paragraphs sooner. You had made some excellent points that were overshadowed by those combative, insensitive statements.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 20, 2008 @ 10:46 am

  112. Stephanie–Helpful on a personal basis, sure. No argument. I just wish they’d offered some sort of qualifier and additional language, because of course we are supposed to have sexual feelings aroused in order to have good marriages. According to the nebulous statements you quoted, some of my hubby’s love letters would be considered unrighteous. Which is, of course, silly. They’re between us and knowing he likes my body (especially since I don’t, especially) helps make us a stronger couple. But hey, when it comes to language the church is “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”: Go into too much detail and you create problems. Leave things all nebulous and you wind up with members “improving” upon council by declaring everything under the sun pornography.

    I like your approach of refusing judgment. That’s really the one position I can imagine in reference to someone else’s life unless they shared a LOT more and if I felt inspired, trusted, etc. etc.

    Jonathan–thanks for that, and amen. I’m so sick of guys who assume Mormon women are prudes in bed and that if their husbands look at porn it must be the wife’s fault for imitating an ice cube. What a silly assumption.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 11:00 am

  113. Let’s flip this around.Say a woman has a husband who’s not so hot at sex-never satisfied her and was conservative in his sexual tastes.Would his wife be justified in watching other men satisfying other women and requiring her husband to do likewise?
    I think to do so would be abusive and unrighteous dominion.He may have a responsibility to explore what he can do to improve things,but that’s not something that it would be appropriate at any level to force.
    We are of course not even beginning to explore coercion in the sex industry-the high levels of HIV infection taking place because inadequate protection is often percieved as more exciting and the high levels of sexual abuse reported by women subsequently employed by the sex industry,let alone the links with substance addiction and the need to feed it. The fantasy that these women are enjoying it is exactly that.
    I think that Jason’s sexual problems are his own.It could be suggested that with a little more technique-incentive-his partner might be a little more enthusiastic in the sack.
    But actually Jason I found your comments abusive and I guess I’m struggling not to respond in kind.Failed again.

    Comment by wayfarer — May 20, 2008 @ 11:10 am

  114. Janet, you make a great point about how members “improve” upon council. I still remember in high school when there was an anti-porn rally up in Salt Lake and some college-aged girl claimed that The David was pornography. In order to consider something porn I don’t think you should look at it in terms of whether or not you’re sexually aroused. Women have the right to breast feed in public, for example, without someone condemning them (or themselves) for getting turned on by it. Films that show beautiful expressions of love might turn others on, but does that condemn the material to the category of pornography. Instead, why don’t we look at porn as a kind of exploitation? Perhaps from a more industry-specific definition than one of personal subjectivity.

    Comment by Whitney — May 20, 2008 @ 11:11 am

  115. Jason,

    I have to step in here and say that I find what you wrote particularly offensive…

    When everything blew up in my face and all the news happened, one of the comments on the story in the herald was, “she must not have been very pretty,for her husband to have needed porn.”

    And then a nice anonymous member of my ward wrote in defending my attractiveness. And then the next news story had a picture of me, and this same commentator said “Wow. She is pretty. Guess i was wrong about that. He really had no excuse to look at porn.”

    I’m sorry, but… I found that entire exchange offensive when it happened. What does it matter what I look like? NO woman can measure up (and I mean that quite literally) to the sort of bodies and faces and sexual subservience found in pornoraphic material..

    nor should they.

    Your comment makes me wonder if you think that sexual favors are a husband’s “right,” and that if a woman is uncomfortable with a certain sexual act, that justifies the husband (or boyfriend) to go and look at pornography.

    I think you might have a pretty skewed view of the purpose of sexuality.

    Comment by sare — May 20, 2008 @ 11:20 am

  116. Let’s flip this around.Say a woman has a husband who’s not so hot at sex-never satisfied her and was conservative in his sexual tastes.Would his wife be justified in watching other men satisfying other women and requiring her husband to do likewise? I don’t know what porn you’ve seen but most of it even so called lesbian porn is geared toward men. I think the women in the porn vids mostly fake it. The men in the porn vids seem more interested in satisfying themselves but even they look bored. Its a waste of time. There are lots of good books on trying new things that are much better way to get ideas on new stuff to try.

    Comment by A.J. — May 20, 2008 @ 11:28 am

  117. RE defining porn:

    I think it depends on your purpose in definining it. If you’re defining it with the inention of censorship, then yes, a non-objective definition would work better.

    But if you’re definining it for the purpose of personal improvement (eg maybe some women are turned on by David, thus they feel uncomfortable pursuing that image) then a more subjective one, IMO is needed.

    For instance, I like to look at bra catalogues when I buy a bra. I don’t consider that same-sex porn. But some men look at bra catalogues to turn themselves on… in that case, it is porn. Does that mean I keep bra catalogues out of my home ? If one of my teenage boys comes up to me and tells me he is struggling with bra catalogues, maybe I would. But otherwise no.

    Personally, I think David (both Davids, I like the donatello one in particular) is a beautiful work of art that people should see. But if one person in particular found that it aroused sexual feelings and decided to avoid it, I would not condemn that person either.

    I must admit though, that I find it funny that the littlest thing will be decried as innappropriate and sexual… like the time Rodin came to the MOA and they kept “the kiss” in storage because of the public outcry.

    Comment by sare — May 20, 2008 @ 11:37 am

  118. PLEASE DO NOT TYPE IN THE WORD P0RN.

    IT WILL GET CAUGHT IN MODERATION OR DELETED.

    help a sister out here and be creative.

    love,

    mfranti

    Comment by mfranti — May 20, 2008 @ 11:42 am

  119. Observer, I think the major factor here is whether or not the material itself causes arousal. The church’s definition (for the third time) says “Pr0n0graphy is any material depicting or describing the human body or sexual conduct in a way that arouses sexual feelings.“

    Stephanie, I know what you are saying, but I’m not trying to define Pr0n0graphy as much as make the point that there are distinctions in the types of pr0n that exist, and that not all are degrading, twisted, etc. In other words, I’m not trying to say that the second category of sexual imagery in my post above isn’t pr0n; it most certainly is. Unfortunately, many readers of fMh may have had indirect or limited experience with pr0n, and consequently conclude that all pr0n is the same. It is not.

    If we are to flee ANY material depicting or describing the body or its sexual function that arouses us, we would be listening to, watching, reading, etc. very little outside official Church publications indeed. That book “And they were not Ashamed” mentioned in a few posts above could be considered pr0n (although technically the ending -graphy denotes something visual; just splitting hairs :-))

    I have come to the conclusion that we are (in part) sexual beings, and that proper sexual expression needs to be responsibly explored without blanket statements that engender guilt, fear, and repressive responses. The big M and appropriate sexual imagery give us quick access to that element of our being, and can be used beneficially in moderation. Being told to completely avoid sexually arousing thoughts and media, but to be suddenly confronted with sexual acts after a wedding ceremony is a major jump that many cannot navigate successfully because they do not have the skills to express what they want, how they want it, or even why they want it. Couple that with years of built-up shame and guilt, and you’ve a recipe for relationship disaster, the repercussions of which could take years, even decades to sort out.

    And in response to all those who have posted about the exploitive nature of the pr0n industry, I encourage you to look at ANY industry and note that they all exploit someone or something. The textile industry exploits women and children in sweatshops and farmland across the globe. The tech industry exploits the same people who build our cell phones and computers half a world away. The food industry rapes the land and uses what can only be described as abusive practices in preparing the meat we buy for $1.89 /lb. Furthermore, the food industry exploits the american people by feeding them an increasingly homogenous diet of processed food products derived from corn, contributing to all manner of health problems, the brunt of which we won’t see for another 30-50 years. The t.v. and film industry exploits the American people who choose to zone out on the images and advertisements they send out on hundreds of channels, 24/7, encouraging a consumerist, materialist culture that has lost touch with community, humanity, and core values. The medical industry exploits employers and in turn the American people by charging whatever prices they want for technology, prescription medications, treatments, etc., and ordering those prescriptions and treatments willy-nilly, causing health care costs to skyrocket. The auto industry pollutes the environment and encourages us to pump more and more oil out of the ground to drive further and further each year in gas-guzzling vehicles that make only moderate efforts to reduce emissions each year. Where ever there is a demand for something, there will be people to exploit the production, distribution, and consumption of said resources. Sometimes boycott is the only way to respond, but we can’t stop driving cars, eating food, using computers and seeing doctors. We can only make an effort to use the products of those industries in as responsible a way as possible.

    Comment by Observer — May 20, 2008 @ 12:57 pm

  120. quick correction: I looked up -graph in the OED and realized that it means something written or described, not necessarily image-based. Cheers.

    Comment by Observer — May 20, 2008 @ 1:14 pm

  121. Unfortunately, many readers of fMh may have had indirect or limited experience with pr0n, and consequently conclude that all pr0n is the same. It is not.

    Or fortunately, it depending on how you look at it.

    I don’t really think that pointing out exploitative aspects of other industries makes the extremely exploitative aspect of the p*rn industry any better.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 1:23 pm

  122. *Or fortunately, depending on how you look at it.*

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 1:24 pm

  123. Janet, I’ve been thinking about what you said, and I like that some guidance in the gospel is intentionally vague. It reminds me of the Testimony talk by Elder Oaks in this last conference where he talks about the two channels to God. I think the same principle applies to making decisions as to gaining a testimony. The church gives general guidelines (on some things), and it is up to us to determine how that applies in each of our own personal lives. Granted, that might sound dangerous to some, but if we have the Spirit with us, that small voice deep inside can whisper to us if something is right or wrong. And it may be different for different people. But, I highly doubt that anyone who has the Spirit with them could honestly confirm that hard p*rn is okay with the Spirit, particularly since that goes directly contrary to the church’s teachings.

    As a different example (since I have no experience with p*rn and am happy to keep it that way), the church doesn’t have an exact position on caffeine in soda. That means that someone who drinks a Dr. Pepper is not a sinner. However, I choose not to drink caffeine because I interpret the WoW to tell ME that it’s not good for MY body. But, I’m not going to condemn someone else who interprets that differently from me. My mom is addicted to Dr. Pepper. Every morning she gets up and drives to 7-11 to buy it so she can get through the day. She lays in bed and moans otherwise. It is a full-blown addiction. That doesn’t mean she’s evil or a sinner or whatever, but it is sad that she has an addiction that controls so much of her life. I know others who drink Dr. Pepper all the time with no addiction whatsoever. Caffeine in soda isn’t even a gray area since the church has no official position that I know of, but in general, I think the general guidelines and the still small voice that tells us if something is wrong for us or not are to protect us and help us to stay happy.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 1:41 pm

  124. PLEASE DO NOT TYPE IN THE WORD [redacted].

    IT WILL GET CAUGHT IN MODERATION OR DELETED.

    Aha! And now we see the official FMH policy regarding prawn. Prawn is fine, as long as it’s in moderation. ;)

    (Actually, prawns are pretty tasty in a nice jambalaya. You know, with cajun spices and sausage . . . err, chicken breast . . . err . . . nevermind . . . )

    :P

    Comment by Kaimi — May 20, 2008 @ 1:42 pm

  125. If we are to flee ANY material depicting or describing the body or its sexual function that arouses us, we would be listening to, watching, reading, etc. very little outside official Church publications indeed.

    Can I make one little irreverent aside and then I’ll promise to play it straight?

    Thinking about this reminds me of the first few times I went to the temple. I found the temple videos somewhat arousing. Now I wouldn’t bat an eye, but back then I was 19… which is probably all I need to say. Now you know just how depraved I was ;) and how nonsensical such subjective definitions of p*rnography can be.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 20, 2008 @ 1:50 pm

  126. Stephanie– you took the words right out of my mouth! ITA.

    Comment by mellocello — May 20, 2008 @ 1:56 pm

  127. Right. I probably shouldn’t have used the word “unfortunately”. I meant that the lack of exposure to the array of pr0n offerings causes them to dump pr0n into one category. This is similar to the way any culture group view outsiders as exhibiting one personality characteristic, for example. Unfamiliarity leads to often-incorrect stereotyping and broad generalizations.

    Also, I’m not suggesting that the exploitative aspect of the pr0n industry is any better in light of other exploitative industries, just pointing out that we participate in the success of exploitative industries every day whether we want to or not; it is the modus operandi of a global marketplace. Deriding one exploitative industry while fueling another can be seen as hypocritical, except, how is saying that helpful, considering that one cannot help but be hypocritical and live in modern society? If we are going to point out problems in one industry, we cannot (or should not) pick and choose which industry to turn a blind eye upon. We could easily vilify (and many often do) Bill Gates, Sam Walton, McDonalds, “Hollywood”, etc. for devastating the lives of countless more individuals than are affected by the pr0n industry.

    A free-market method of combating exploitative industry practices center around putting our money where our mouth is: if we don’t like the way animals are treated on CAFOs, we can choose not to buy meat anymore and go vegetarian, or we can choose to pay more to buy locally from farmers that we know adhere to humane practices. If we don’t like messages and images on T.V., we don’t watch certain shows. If we don’t like sweatshop clothing manufacturers, we decide we’ll buy clothing that costs lots more and is made if factories that have humane working conditions and living wages, that don’t employ children. If we don’t like fuel-guzzling vehicles, we buy the most fuel-efficient cars we can, make fewer trips, and use alternative means of transportation such as bicycles. The pr0n industry isn’t going away. The consumer can boycott the industry entirely, or support non-exploitative types of pr0n with his or her dollars. In none of these cases mentioned above does the exploitative practices of industry suddenly cease. The captains of industry do pay attention to where people spend their time and money, however, and may adjust accordingly. I’m just trying to provide perspective to the conversation. Writing off all producers of sexual imagery as vicious, hateful, selfish, money-grubbing misogynists is inaccurate. These same epithets could be used to describe any of the producers of less “naughty” commodities such as food, clothing, technology, etc.

    Comment by Observer — May 20, 2008 @ 1:56 pm

  128. small point observer: violent porn which seeks to arouse via violence differs from industries which use sweatshops in that sweatshops are not inherently necessary to the production of clothing. Consideration and depiction of sexual violence is inherently necessary for the production of violent porn, and thus so is placing women in positions which imitate it, even if they do not entirely enact it. Yes–we can argue this about much acting. We cannot have a film exposing the horrors of Pinochet unless some actors willingly plays the bad guys. But those have a byproduct for which I can make a reasonable endorsement. Violent sex? Not so much.

    Otherwise I’d say your market analysis = quite interesting.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 2:05 pm

  129. Observer, I see your point. BUT for me, food, clothing, transportation, technology, are all arguably things that are pretty necessary to modern life (well, maybe not technology or transportation….) but pr0n is not necessary. If it is *necessary* for someone to view/read it in order to preform sexually, then doesn’t that inherently make it an addiction? Of course, one needs food to survive, but that doesn’t mean they are addicted to it necessarily. I feel like the argument I’m trying to get across just isn’t flowing because of my own blundering and the fact that I have the flu. But maybe some one more eloquent can put a finer point on what I am trying to say.:)

    Comment by mellocello — May 20, 2008 @ 2:07 pm

  130. Stephanie–yes, I agree. Vagueness is good when we’re talking about personal application. (Not good to be commanded in all things and all that.) It just doesn’t work as well in a conversation where definitional clarity would focus things. As somebody (Researcher? Observer?) said above, there’s as many types of p0rn as there are breakfast cereals, and if you add in anything that could arouse anyone, the entire world becomes breakfast cereal. Of seafood, considering Kaimi’s funny joke :)

    BTW, your mom should just go to Costco and stock up on Dr. Pepper. What’s she gonna do if the 7-11 gets robbed and she can’t get in? :)

    mfranti–sorry about the typing sins above. Made it past the filter though!

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 2:09 pm

  131. Mellocello: thanks for your comment. I too don’t think that pr0n is *necessary* by any means, and I’m not trying to get everyone on fMh to go out and buy it or view it. And there are certainly lots and lots of pr0n industry people who are in fact vicious, hateful, selfish, money-grubbing misogynists. I’m just drawing a distinction between types of pr0n in hopes of engendering discussion that doesn’t make blanket generalities about the subject that question the ability of someone to participate in responsible, non-addictive use of pr0n, and heap mountains of guilt upon them by so doing. That guilt and the generalizations we make about pr0n seem to me the most detrimental aspects of pr0n0graphy and the LDS people.

    Comment by Observer — May 20, 2008 @ 2:18 pm

  132. Observer-
    It’s true that any time there is a chance to make money or create more power, there is the chance of exploitation. If you equate, however, sexual exploitation and it’s effects with work or environmental exploitation is just plain crazy. Beat me, force me to work 18 hour days, rape the land and burn the rainforest before you take my, my kids, or others’ sexual integrity. Our religion is alone (in Christianity) in its’ view of the Procreative powers’ sacredness. That being said, I think we should look at all the pockets we line and make “morally correct” choices whenever we vote with our dollars.

    Comment by sofia — May 20, 2008 @ 2:20 pm

  133. Two more scriptures that keep running through my mind and then I’ll stop (I hope - I actually do have a life outside of my computer).

    The first is near the end of King Benjamin’s address. Mosiah 4:29-30

    And finally, I cannot tell you all the things whereby ye may commit sin; for there are divers ways and means, even so many that I cannot number them. But this much I can tell you, that if ye do not watch yourselves, and your thoughts, and your words, and your deeds, and observe the commandments of God . . . ye must perish.

    The second is D&C 58:26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant”.

    I do think we have a responsibility to determine for ourselves what we want to do with things that fall in the “gray” areas. In general, my guideline for myself is: is this bringing me closer to, or further from Christ? I think that making my husband happy and strengthening our marriage would take me closer to Christ, so I want materials that do that. But, I do think there is danger there if I try to justify my own pleasure by saying that it “strengthens my marriage” while I indulge in p*rn. We need to be realistic and honest with ourselves.

    What a can of worms. So glad I am only responsible for myself and my own actions.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 2:22 pm

  134. And Janet, if my mom were REALLY listening to the prophet, she’d have her 1 year supply of Dr. Pepper, wouldn’t she? :)

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 2:25 pm

  135. RE: 132 “Beat me, force me to work 18 hour days, rape the land and burn the rainforest before you take my, my kids, or others’ sexual integrity.”

    Yikes. I am trying to decide if this stance is admirable or horrifying.

    Comment by ella avery — May 20, 2008 @ 3:47 pm

  136. There’s an article in the current New York magazine that touches on a lot of the themes being discussed in this thread. It’s from a secular, male perspective but perhaps some readers here might find it interesting.

    Comment by MikeInWeHo — May 20, 2008 @ 4:18 pm

  137. President Richard Nixon appointed a commission to study the effects of pornography. When the study came out the findings were shocking. They concluded that there was nothing damaging about pornography. In fact they said that it could help enhance a marriage by giving couples ideas of new things they could do. It could help them let their hair down, so to speak. The public was so outraged that the commission was forced to rewrite their report and more pointedly highlight any negative effects they found.

    Obviously today pictures of kids on the Internet is the only thing that causes outrage. In-spite of Nixon’s efforts to stamp out the terrible stuff it thrives and will continue to thrive because adults have the right to decide what they will or will not allow into their heads.

    I will honestly say that the idea that there is such a thing as an addiction to pornography is something difficult for me to swallow. Clearly given the amount of money generated by the industry those who might be addicted are a small minority just as compulsive gamblers are not in the majority of those who bet at the race track or buy lottery tickets.

    So what is it we are really upset about 1. that some people are addicted and they do great damage to those who love them or 2. that so many adults in our society find nothing wrong with the product peddled by sex workers.

    Sure enough it is immoral, but it is not the only kind of immorality that thrives around us. Some kinds of immorality is actually criminal and damages hundreds of thousands of lives. So, maybe we should view it the same way we do other forms of immorality. Does it really larger than life.

    Comment by Claudia — May 20, 2008 @ 5:15 pm

  138. They hypocrisy here is nothing short of stunning. I am attacked for being a generalist while that’s exactly what most of you are doing and even moreso.

    I completely stand by my statement that many men who view porn are making up for an absence of sexual passion in their lives or are tired of playing the sexual games their wives insist on. I’m not simply projecting because unlike most of you, I’ve actually talked to men.

    How many of you have actually talked non-judgmentally with your husbands? How many have even looked at what he looks at and discussed it. (As Observer points out, there are a myriad different types of pornography, not all of it videos and pictures nor even aimed at men.) I again suggest that many of you reexamine your own sexuality and sexual relationship before attacking your husbands and calling them perverts.

    I do not disagree that viewing pornography can become a substitute for interaction with real people for some men and women, but should also point out that other things can do the same. (At one point, I had a neighbor who clearly used Boy Scouts–non-sexually–to avoid dealing with his wife. I had a Bishop who just as obviously used his calling for the same purpose.) However, painting pornography with a broad brush and even expanding the definition is absurd (as a teenager, I had leaders who expanded the definition of petting to include holding hands with the fingers intertwined.)

    Comment by Jason — May 20, 2008 @ 5:57 pm

  139. 132: I agree that this stance might be….a little problematic. From my experience with victims of sexual assault, it seems like it might sometimes be far more traumatizing because of others reactions to their situation and because of how society treats their situation. I remember YW leaders telling me that I would rather be killed than raped. It is attitudes like these that lead to trauma, not necessarily the traumatic events themselves.

    Comment by Whitney — May 20, 2008 @ 6:43 pm

  140. 137, yes those were exactly my thoughts. Although I completely respect the sanctity and importance given to sexual intimacy, I worry about the leaps in logic that we make. When I was in a BYU singles ward only three or four years ago, I approached my bishop with my well worn copy of Miracle of Forgiveness, creased open to the page stating that women should place their purity above their lives. Better dead than unpure. I was berating myself emotionally because of sexual abuse I experienced as a high school student.

    I asked my bishop how to live with myself, when I had allowed the abuse to happen. I could have fought more, fought differently, resisted somehow, right?? Better dead than tainted merchandise.
    Luckily I had a wise bishop, whose first comment was “Put that book away. For good. Get rid of it. Its a book that can have a purpose, sometimes -this is not it.”

    Sorry for the threadjack. But I worry comments like 132 add to the mental trauma that people face when their “sexual integrity” has been compromised, whether volitionally or not.

    Comment by ella avery — May 20, 2008 @ 7:27 pm

  141. Ella, respectfully, when you were in high school, did anyone give you a copy of “For the Strength of Youth”? I ask because it says in the section on sexual purity

    Victims of rape, incest, or other sexual abuse are not guilty of sin. If you have been a victim of any of these crimes, know that you are innocent and that God loves you. Seek your bishop’s counsel immediately so he can help guide you through the process of emotional healing.

    When I hear stories like yours, I wonder if local leaders are teaching ALL the parts of FSY. Because I hope that if they are, more stories like yours can be prevented. People don’t need to suffer under the assumption of sin when the teaching are clear that there is no sin. I am not at all picking on you - just wishing that someone had delivered the message that the wise Bishop delivered a few years earlier.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 8:12 pm

  142. Excellent point Ella! I completely agree. In the end, we all fear different things and it is harsh to assume we all value the same ‘virtues’ over others - (I’d value knowledge over purity but that’s just me.) I remember that horrible ‘used chewing gum’ analogy in young women’s and was so mad I think I stayed away from the ward for a year or so.

    Comment by Elise — May 20, 2008 @ 8:15 pm

  143. Stephanie, yes they did - I did have a copy. To be honest, I guess I lacked the maturity to interpret what seemed like mixed msgs. The pamphlet tells you that you are innocent, and yet there’s a voice nagging you in the back of your head that you are unworthy, that you could have done anything, after all you barely protested much less fought to the death. This is compounded or reinforced every time you hear that your worth as an LDS young woman is intrinsically connected to your virginity. Used chewing gum, damaged goods, candy bar with the chocolate licked off, those were all taught. You hear enough variations on theme, and add that to the Kimball quote and that’s just where my mind got unhealthily focused.

    I think those nagging voices and thoughts are satanic.

    Comment by ella avery — May 20, 2008 @ 8:21 pm

  144. btw, I don’t blame the church. Or the doctrine. Now, looking back I attribute it to a general lack of focus on the atonement by my leadership, and my own lack of understanding.

    We can never emphasize enough the fact that the Atonement of Christ encompasses all our sins, struggles, pains, and afflictions. I am not “less than (fill in the blank)” to Christ because of what I experienced. He sees me as whole and through him I am whole. Even better, I am not “less than” even though my own actions take me away from Him so often.

    Comment by ella avery — May 20, 2008 @ 8:27 pm

  145. I’m glad you found peace and healing, Ella.

    Those analogies you mentioned (and I’ve heard about them before) are very disappointing. It seems to me that our church leaders (Elder Scott’s excellent conference talk, for example) are leading by example that we need to be more sensitive and aware.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 8:27 pm

  146. Janet I think we are actually largely in agreement. I would never condone or promote violent pr0n. That stuff is disgusting, my husband agrees. I am also very acknowledging of the problem of human trafficking in the sex trade and would in no way want to promote that. But like observer said, its not all created equal.

    I would say 90 percent of Pr0n is pictures of girls posing, maybe videos. Solo. Most guys i know (and I know ALOT - my husband works in the video game industry, and pr0n is quite commonplace amongst our friends) don’t even like stuff that has men it it, they want to see women. So, i agree that differentiating between the types of images out there is helpful in this discussion.

    Finding pictures of girls in school girl outfits on your husbands computer is not the same as finding pictures of men beating women or videos of women being forced.

    Comment by veritas — May 20, 2008 @ 8:30 pm

  147. veritas–Quite! If I found the former I’d chuckle and head over to a Catholic supply store. The latter? I honestly don’t know, once the rage and sobbing had passed.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 8:34 pm

  148. ella– our unfortunate cultural tendency of conflating purity with virginity really does complicate things, doesn’t it? I’m so glad you have found peace as well. I went through a time of feeling like I must be a terrible person for reasons similar to the ones you detail, and I’d creased the same page in MOF. Like you, I found the atonement far more encompassing than I’d previously realized in its ability to heal not just my own sins, but those committed against me as well.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 8:38 pm

  149. I’m glad you posted, ella…

    I want to be able to forestall this happening to my daughters. Reading your post made me stop and think, “what can I say to them to make sure they never feel like this?”

    Do you have an answer for that?

    I am so glad you were able to move away from feeling guilty about what happened to you, that you were able to realize you were an innocent victim, and find healing.

    Comment by sare — May 20, 2008 @ 8:45 pm

  150. Ella, I agree with you on teaching about the Atonement. I know I commented before on FMH that none of the 3 YW manuals have a lesson about the Atonement (it is just referenced in a couple of lessons). Yikes! I taught about it on Easter. We need to talk about it A LOT more. Essentially, the Atonement IS the gospel.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 8:52 pm

  151. Wait, what? There are NO lessons in the current YW manuals solely devoted to the central belief of our faith? How can we possibly expect our children to know it’s our central belief if we don’t make it our central teaching as well?

    I think I’m a lot more alarmed about this little tidbit of information than I am the idea of all of us running into (non-violent) porn now and then. Stupid pop-up windows anyhow.

    Stephanie, I’m immensely glad you talked about Jesus on Easter. What were you supposed to talk about, cupboard maintenance? ACK.

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 9:03 pm

  152. . . . and I say this as a woman who maniacally organized and cleaned her pantry shelves today :)

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 9:03 pm

  153. sare — can I take a stab at your question?

    1) realize no parent can assure the preclusion of their kids experiencing any particular emotion. Feeling filthy and guilty is a pretty normal reaction to sexual abuse. Unless someone continues to feel that way, and such feelings receive cultural reinforcement, I’d avoid telling someone how not to feel or feel and just let them feel. After an assault, you feel quite a lot. I remember feeling guilty for feeling angry. I got over it. You have to acknowledge feelings in order for them to ever go away.

    2) be really open about the body as well as sexuality. Kids who already view their genitalia as dirty probably experience more markedly difficult recoveries from sexual abuse than do children who have a healthy view of the body AND feel comfortable talking about that body. I don’t know the research on this, but my personal experience suggests it. My parents are incredible people and incredibly conscientious, good parents, but they are very . . shy about the human body. Sex education and instilling a positive body image really are the only things I’d say they could have been better at as parents. I thought it was a sin to wipe after peeing when I was really little, because my mom told me not to “touch down there” without really explaining that sometimes it’s rather necessary. (Luckily she wasn’t one of those anti-tampon people, though!) I suspect your own experiences and the healthy and humorous attitude you’re revealed in comments and posts will serve you and your children well.

    3) some research suggests that doll play can really help child survivors of sexual assault work through their trauma. As can writing, drawing, etc. Shrinks have anatomically correct dolls they use in therapy sessions for sexual abuse survivors. Really small children might be more freaked out by those dolls though–not sure. I’ve read conflicted accounts on the anatomically correct v. androgynous dolls. But everybody seems to agree that since kids work stuff out via play, that they do so with this as well.

    4) don’t let an overly introspective tween or teen anywhere near a copy of The Miracle of Forgiveness. There’s some good stuff in there, but I dearly wish the church would issue an edited version which didn’t contain the paragraph Ella referenced or the rather ridiculous assertions that masturbation causes homosexuality, and that homosexuality can be “cured” if you bloody your hands on Christ’s door enough. K know too many people who literally bloodied their hands or even tried to kill themselves as a sort of retroactive resistance to molestation or rape. Not good. (Sexual urges can be kept within the bounds the Lord has set, for gays, straights, bis and any other orientation, but erased? That’s a stretch, and not a healthy one).

    5) We should probably just write some posts on the issue, so I’ll shut up in a second. Here’s one thing that just occurred to me, though: many survivors of sexual abuse feel guilty if they feel any sexual response to their abusive experience (and, often, any sexual response to consensual behavior thereafter–especially if the abuse was the first time they’d felt sexual in any way). In fact, Deseret Book stores largely refused to carry copies of Jack Weyland’s Sarah because one of the protagonists, a teenage girl pregnant as a result of incest, admits to her shrink that sometimes her body responded to her step-father’s behavior. Jack Weyland is hardly a graphic writer; he mostly fits into the “coming home” school of Mormon lit which (sometimes simplistically) reaffirms culture as well as doctrine. Yet he bravely included that truthful detail, I assume in order to help survivors, and his book got branded “p0rnography” and banned. It still irks me and I still think I should write him a letter telling him he’s a hero for being the first author of LDS books to tackle the subject of sexual abuse. But my point is this: bodies can betray us. Kids need to know that, whether they’re 10 or 35. I think this may be one of the most guilt-augmenting factors nobody discusses. Luckily it doesn’t apply to a lot of abuse situations, but it should probably be on our radar screens as a possibility anyhow. I’ve talked with a lot of date rape survivors who felt guilty for being aroused previous to asking the rapist to stop and a few whose bodies kept responding even as they cried, etc.

    Long-winded me. I’m extremely open about sexuality in large part because of my history of being molested as a child and assaulted as an adult. We can go overboard the other direction as well, driving kids batty with overly serious and age-inappropriate sex talks. Finding a happy medium = an ongoing struggle for all of us, I imagine. I hope some of this is useful. You’d probably already thought of it all anyhow…

    Comment by Janet — May 20, 2008 @ 9:35 pm

  154. Janet, I really appreciate you sharing this insight, particularly #5. I think it is very helpful in light of both daughters and sons.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 20, 2008 @ 10:06 pm

  155. I really appreciate the comments made about the Kimball quote from tMoF. I find that quote abhorrent, but in historical context slightly (ever so slightly) mitigated. Undoubtedly it has done lots of psychological damage to young women over the years.

    I wanted to mention also, however, that it has its effect upon young men as well. For that, I have a story. An attractive 20-something woman in my ward has just finished school, and is leaving for her first career job in Utah. I don’t know her terribly well, but its understandable that she would want to be around lots of people her age so she can (among other things) find an LDS man to marry (slim pickings around here). She’s a convert of about 2 years now, and someone closer to her than I mentioned to me that she’s had trouble maintaining relationships with LDS guys once they find out that she is not a virgin, and lived with men previous to her conversion to the gospel. In the guys’ minds, it seems she is tainted goods, not worth marrying because she isn’t pristine, pure, holy, innocent, etc.

    This may reflect my ignorance of that mindset, but I was floored by this. As a man, I cannot see how marrying someone who is a virgin is somehow better than marrying one who is not. This woman repented and was baptized, and was a striving, committed woman in the gospel. She is smart, talented, has a good sense of humor, and is pretty to boot. And yet, talks of purity as a virtue of greater importance than one’s life have instilled in many men a desire for perfection in a potential mate, to the exclusion of those whom Christ himself has not excluded. Not to harp on Jack Weyland again, but didn’t Sam have a problem with Charly’s unchaste ways, causing his bishop to tear up his temple recommend because he wasn’t allowing room for the Atonement to make Charly clean again?

    Comment by Observer — May 20, 2008 @ 10:52 pm

  156. she’s had trouble maintaining relationships with LDS guys once they find out that she is not a virgin, and lived with men previous to her conversion to the gospel.

    Tangential, but not. Maybe. Sorta.

    My husband had this problem because he was not a returned missionary. Fortunately, he ran into a woman who didn’t give a fat rat’s behind.

    I would suggest that Utah may not be the best place for this young lady to find an LDS man who will value her as she deserves.

    Comment by MoJo — May 21, 2008 @ 1:23 am

  157. I’m also annoyed by the ignorant statement that pornography “objectifies” women. By that standard any time I look at my wife in lust when she steps out of the shower I’m objectifying her. Heck, if I simply admire an innocent picture of my wife, I’m objectifying her. (Perhaps, I also stole her soul with the camera.)

    A bigger problem is that nobody can even define “objectify” in any way that doesn’t include just about every human endeavor. For example, I was hired by my company because of my programming skills, not because they care about me as a human being. By the standards here, I’ve been objectified.

    #88: I’ve made some of these same points from a feminist perspective here: Questioning Objectification.

    Comment by C. L. Hanson — May 21, 2008 @ 2:46 am

  158. […] spouse) is OK, and waiting until your spouse is asleep and then sneaking into the computer room to masturbate to naughty pictures is a sin. But in fact there’s a whole lot of gray area between these two, and nobody seems to […]

    Pingback by For married Mormons: Where does OK end and sin begin? « The Visitors’ Center — May 21, 2008 @ 6:25 am

  159. Ella, Whitney, and others-
    I went to bed last night knowing my last post (132) was a little over the top. Notice though, that I did NOT say “kill me”. I have known several close friends who are working through sexual abuse and I never would try to retraumatize them by suggesting they would be better off dead. I guess I was just saying that (seeing what my loved ones have gone through) that if someone gave me a choice between working in a sweat shop and sexual abuse, I’d choose the sweat shop.

    It’s my feeling that the P*rnography industry is creating more sexual predators every day. When the soft stuff doesn’t do it any more, where do you go? Unfortunately, it’s all too easy. And when pictures just don’t do it, you might find a human being to use. We’re going to run out of prison space.

    Comment by sofia — May 21, 2008 @ 10:44 am

  160. Observer, seems to me that those men are weeding themselves out. Would she want to be married to a man who didn’t understand the Atonement and repentance? To some it might not matter, but to me it does. She deserves better than the men she’s dated, and I am sure she’ll find it. The men in Utah are not all bad.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 21, 2008 @ 10:58 am

  161. Also in regard to 88 -

    If you’re really interested in how p0rn0graphy (or any film that follows the classical Hollywood guidelines) is usually a form of objectification you might want to read Laura Mulvey’s essay “Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema.” If you’re interested in objectification in p0rn0graphy specifically you could check out Linda William’s “Hard Core.” That one goes over positive and negative representations in the industry.

    But…somehow I guess you’re not really that interested…

    Comment by Whitney — May 21, 2008 @ 11:02 am

  162. 149 Sare, thanks for your comments. I really apologize for the threadjack. The whole discussion has been tremendously important and I appreciate your courage and insights. You asked how to help your daughters . . . Janet’s response was incredible, as usual. I can only say amen to everything she did. (I rarely comment but have been regularly reading FMH for over three years. Janet is ALWAYS dead on, and many of her posts and comments have been transcribed into my journal (sourced) as a springboard for my own thoughts and learning. 153 will go in as well.)

    Looking back, and maybe this is something you can relate to - as a 15 or 16 yr old, my perspective was inadequate. I did not yet know that we as individuals are so much more than the sum of our experiences. Abuse, physical/mental illness, infertility, divorce, pornography, career or relationship failure, sin committed by ourselves or others, poverty, - fill in the blank - these experiences and ramifications mold our hearts and our worldviews, and teach us about ourselves and others and God, but they are not us. We are more than that which we experience. I am only 24 now, and pregnant with my first child, and I don’t know how I will do it, but I hope to teach my child this. That we don’t ever have to be victim of our circumstances, and that our experiences and suffering have an intrinsic value that we can incorporate and then move on.

    I think that church leaders would be/are devastated to learn that some of us use their literature and teachings to beat ourselves into the ground.

    Thank you Sare, for allowing everything about this entire discussion to happen.

    159 - sofia, thanks. we weren’t giving you the most charitable reading. The original phrasing just triggered something in me . . . but I understand where you were coming from and appreciate that.

    Comment by ella avery — May 21, 2008 @ 11:07 am

  163. That’s pretty dismissive, Whitney. Why offer sources and then slap the people you’ve given them to? I think most of us here would argue that *some* p0rnography objectifies women (and men, for that matter) in deleterious ways but that perhaps not all objectification is bad. It depends on context. To steal from the offensive comment a ways above, if my husband “objectifies” me as I step out of the shower, that’s fine. Healthy. Normal. It only crosses the yuck line if I’m disinterested in pursuing sexual activities at that moment and he disregards my feelings and full person in pursuit of the (solely) objectification.

    Comment by Janet — May 21, 2008 @ 11:11 am

  164. […] a license, so I’d like to start by quoting Jonathan Blake’s comment which he posted here: Pornography/masturbation and the shame associated with it were a huge part of my youth. I took the […]

    Pingback by Advice from the armchair marriage counselor | Main Street Plaza — May 21, 2008 @ 11:11 am

  165. Stephanie,

    In regard to #160, you’re right. She doesn’t need to be with guys like that. And I agree, there are lots of great guys (and lots of not so great guys) in Utah. I just feel bad for the guys and their unrealistic expectations, who pass up fantastic women because they fall outside unrealistic ideals. My brother is 28 years old, is nice, smart, funny, and probably the best looking in my family. He’s also unmarried and not really dating. I’m pretty sure he’s not gay, but he has mentioned in the recent past some of his “requirements” in regard to the women he wants to date. For him, physical perfection is the most important. I’ve not asked him about the virginity issue.

    He’s spent tons of time looking for the “perfect” girl that now he’s verging on “creepy” guy status. He plans on buying a house later this year, further upping his creepy guy rating. He needs to seriously reevaluate his priorities and expectations, IMO. I wonder how much influence messages about LDS concepts of feminine beauty, purity, and the supposed “right” of a worthy, returned missionary to have a smokin’ hot wife have had on him that have brought him in part to the predicament he now faces.

    Comment by Observer — May 21, 2008 @ 11:18 am

  166. For the record, I don’t agree with the rest of Jason’s comment(s). The armchair marriage counselor says he’s responding to hostility with hostility. Someone has told him that he’s selfishly destroying his marriage, and he naturally responds with “it’s not my fault — it’s yours!”

    The armchair marriage counselor says “Let’s step back and try to diffuse the hostility.”

    Comment by C. L. Hanson — May 21, 2008 @ 11:36 am

  167. The armchair marriage counselor is wise.

    Comment by Janet — May 21, 2008 @ 12:03 pm

  168. I only offer sources to Jason because he says that there is no clear definition of objectification that doesn’t include every human endeavor, but we are talking about p0rn0graphy here and for that specific industry there are so many sources to turn to for precise definitions. That’s why I think conflating the term p0rn0graphy with behaviors outside of the arts (ex: everyday human behavior like stepping out of a shower or breast feeding) is absurd and offensive. But, you’re right, I was being dismissive. I found his comment to be blatantly rude and misogynistic and I answered in a sort of passive aggressive way.

    Comment by Whitney — May 21, 2008 @ 12:34 pm

  169. I wanted to add another voice to this train of thought…

    I spoke to my hubby last night about what he looks at and doesn’t look at. He said that the sites he goes to is more like ‘Women glorification” than “women objectification”. He finds sites that extol all the wonders and beauties in women’s anatomy and pleasure. Before he investigated the internet and saw the p0rn he has, he kinda thought (from family and cultural training) that women’s bodies were inherently kinda dirty and yucky. All the things that women’s bodies do could be looked at from two perspectives and he made that mental switch after looking at p0rn. He didn’t go to the fake breast blonde bimbo sites, but more to ‘how to’ guides that were VERY EXPLICIT and helped to open his mind. (trust me that no LDS authored book would discuss this stuff - they tip toe around any real detail sex discussion)

    I think both women and men growing up in the church are ashamed of their bodies and esp. women. I remember some my former Sis-in-law handing me a ‘box’ after my wedding full of women’s deoderant/ wipes and douches! boys pick up on the ‘dirty’ thing too.

    Since my hubby has researched more (and trust me… no LDS book gets into the nitty gritty of female stuff like the internet can), he’s completely accepting and loving of everything to do with my body. I think his motive in looking at p0rn (to figure stuff out) was a factor in why I’m ok with it. Also, I will say that for someone uncomfortable discussing trying new things, it’s a LOT EASIER to simply show a photo of others doing it and say “see… this is what I mean.”

    Anyway, I’m just glad it’s kind of been decided that not all p0rn is degenerative or degrading. :)

    Comment by Elise — May 21, 2008 @ 12:42 pm

  170. (sort of) threadjack alert!

    observer, your comment (#163) reminded me of some associates of mine back when I taught in the MTC. They were also teachers recently married to each other. He was, quite honestly, not so hot. She was, quite honestly, extremely hot.
    She was tall, slim, leggy, blond haired blue eyed hot.

    So, as we’re chatting in the break room one day, he mentions how he is able to hit home to his missionaries the importance of serving an honorable mission; he arranges for his wife to stop by the class for a few moments. And then he tells them that if they work hard and serve the lord, they too will be rewarded with such wives.

    true story.

    I’m sure he really didn’t believe that, he was just trying to be funny, it was kind of a joke… but he really did use her as an (semi-serious) object lesson for his missionaries.

    Comment by G — May 21, 2008 @ 12:46 pm

  171. G- I have heard statements like that many times, even from mission presidents. And every time I hear it or hear of it, it makes me want to vomit. Or maybe the Lord will bless you with a smart, strong and funny wife with whom you can spend your whole life with and never run out of things to talk about! How about that instead!

    Comment by Racheldmc — May 21, 2008 @ 1:06 pm

  172. Elise, well, maybe I am the lone dissenting voice, but I don’t agree that “not all p*rn is degenerative or degrading”. I do think that ALL p*rn is degenerative and degrading, but I don’t think that every picture of a naked body is p*rn. That was my point.

    Please take what I say for what it is worth. I am not judging your husband, but when I read your comment a red flag went up. If my husband told me what your husband told you, I would ask to see the sites myself.

    Based on exactly what you quoted your husband as saying, if my husband told me that, I would not be okay with it. It doesn’t feel right to me. But, like I said, not my marriage, not my place to judge. Just be sure you are being honest with yourself about whether you truly feel it is right or not. That’s my advice (for what it is worth).

    Also, women’s bodies are not dirty, but s*x is. It can be dirty and smelly. I’ve always thought that was more my husband’s fault . . . (ooh, too much info).

    Comment by Stephanie — May 21, 2008 @ 1:12 pm

  173. Um, when my husband and I were newlyweds, we ran into an old comp and he said to my husband, “Wow, you must have worked really hard on your mission”. I was flattered. Hypocrite, I know.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 21, 2008 @ 1:14 pm

  174. Stephanie, I appreciate your honesty. It is dirty and smelly (although still a lot of fun) and I would probably be flattered too, although annoyed at the same time:)

    Comment by Racheldmc — May 21, 2008 @ 1:28 pm

  175. Stephanie,

    Considering I’m the one who initially helped him look for sites, it’s safe to say I’m pretty comfortable with where he’s going. He also knows the stuff I check out too (it’s a two way street.) Plus we are always talking about everything and don’t hide anything we are doing (I email my exboyfriends as friends and he’s comfortable with that - not many husbands would be).

    Anyway, he hasn’t been online in months - I haven’t either, but I have no qualms about any research done. I have to say I’m helping a lesbian friend of mine write a series of books about sex. Each little book will be on different subject matters and I’m excited for them to come out. :) Would you consider a book with a title “lesbian tips for a straight man” to be P0rn? - it will include pics. The point is… I use the word p0rn in sweeping strokes - it becomes semantics where you would view the same movies I do as p0rn (red shoe diaries with hottie Fox Mulder anyone?) There is p0rn for women (aka romance novels) and p0rn for men (usually images).

    It’s kind of like the word feminism to me. if I go saying I”m a feminist, all sorts of ward members immediately assume I’m the epitome of what Rush Limbaugh calls a femi-nazi. I say I view p0rn and so does my hubby on occassion and all sorts of assumptions are made in a likewise way. I think I’m just trying to show that in the same way there’s a rainbow of definition of the word feminism, so to (at least to me) for p0rn. Heck, one of my favorite movies someone called p0rn and I couldn’t believe it. (Original Sin with Antonio Bandaras).

    I do agree with you about hubby’s being at fault for any mess. :) All my best towels are ruined!

    Comment by Elise — May 21, 2008 @ 1:34 pm

  176. “I think both women and men growing up in the church are ashamed of their bodies and esp. women”

    This is over-generalizing things. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that it’s really not true for everyone who grew up in the church. But maybe you were trying to point to your expereince, and not generalize. If that’s the case, I apologize for splitting hairs with you.

    Jason– how do you know who we have talked to and who we haven’t? How do you know we haven’t talked non-judgementally with our husbands about sex and porn? It’s a shame that you don’t use more tact and non-judgement when you post. If you did, I actually might give some regard to what you have to say. When you belittle people you don’t even know, it makes it kind of hard to see your side of the argument.

    Comment by mellocello — May 21, 2008 @ 1:42 pm

  177. Would you consider a book with a title “lesbian tips for a straight man” to be P0rn? - it will include pics.

    I don’t know, but I also don’t think I would buy it. I’m pretty conservative in this area (some would call me a prude, and I am okay with that, as long as my hubby is happy). I agree with you about the spectrum of feminism. The idea of feminism resonates with me, but as it seems to be defined in society today, not so much.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 21, 2008 @ 1:42 pm

  178. It does help when a prude marries a prude. :)

    Comment by Stephanie — May 21, 2008 @ 1:43 pm

  179. I think both women and men growing up in the church are ashamed of their bodies and esp. women. I remember some my former Sis-in-law handing me a ‘box’ after my wedding full of women’s deoderant/ wipes and douches! boys pick up on the ‘dirty’ thing too.

    I don’t think this is limited to the church. There was a discussion on that evolved into how icky girls/women think their own bodies are. The f/f discussion notwithstanding, my point is really that female bodies haven’t been thought of as anything but icky (by women) since the Etruscans carved their little Buddha-bellied fertility goddesses.

    Comment by MoJo — May 21, 2008 @ 5:00 pm

  180. For the record, I’m not an angry male; I was exaggerating to make a point–namely that many of the women posters here are rather ignorant about men, sexuality and pornography.

    I find the reaction to my comments amusing. The failure to examine the general misandry here is astonishing as are the generalizations so broad, it’s quite clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about concerning pornography.

    For example, a plethora of studies going back decades have definitively shown that pornography leads to a decrease in sexual violence.

    There is no “pornography industry”. Yes, it sounds cute to lump everything disapproved of into a single target, but it just isn’t so. Is a picture of nude woman pornography? How about a drawing? (If the latter, then my devoted LDS mother is part of the pornography industry. She’d be surprised.)

    A bigger point that was lost is that the definition of addicted is overly broad. This is true of society at large. The word is now used to describe anything done habitually which another disproves of. It’s part of a large trend toward over diagnosing all sorts of mental disorders (to the point where ordinary depression is being described as a mental illness.)

    Comment by Jason — May 21, 2008 @ 7:47 pm

  181. Jason,

    I think you might be right that some women are ignorant of sexuality in general, maybe male sexulity in particular. I think that the leap for me is when you say that this translates to inherrent prudity (is that a word) in bed after marriage. In my case it didn’t! I’d be willing to bet that in my mother’s case it didn’t, either. :) I bet lots of LDS women who were relatively innocent before marriage went on to develop healthy sex lives (though it might take some longer than others, and I am very aware that there are women who really struggle with this).

    Also wanted to point out that your conceptualization is a little one-sided. I think that men have this same problem sometimes, when they go into a marriage with relatively little sexual experience. It took my spouse (my current spouse, happily married for 3 years now btw) a while to feel comfortable really letting go… expressing himself… loosening up, etcetera.

    I hope you don’t see any hostility in this comment. I’m just trying to honestly voice my objections.

    Comment by sare — May 21, 2008 @ 9:17 pm

  182. Jason, I still disagree with you on several points.

    1. many of the women posters here are rather ignorant about men, sexuality and pornography.

    What can you tell me about this that does not lead to an excuse to satisfy “the natural man”? For what it’s worth, I am raising four sons and read a LOT about boys and their sexuality. Something I have learned is that it is really important for boys to learn self-control when they are young so that when they face temptations, they can control themselves, not just succumb because it “feels good”.

    2. For example, a plethora of studies going back decades have definitively shown that pornography leads to a decrease in sexual violence.

    Cite these, please. I would be interested to read them. I doubt that I would find as many studies claiming the opposite. Why? Not because I don’t think the opposite is true, but because I think the people funding the studies you are talking about have more incentive and more money to work with to get the results they want.

    3. There is no “p*rnography industry”.

    Definitely disagree here. I wish I could find some stats listing how many billions of dollars are spent on the “p*rn industry”, but my ultra-powerful family filter on my computer (designed to keep p*rn away from my four sons) won’t let me google it.

    How about we get past the cutesy arguments (”Is a picture of a nude woman p*rnography?”) designed to deflect attention away from the real issue and focus on the real issue itself. It seems that the real problem here is when one spouse in a marriage is looking at what one spouse in a marriage perceives to be p*rn. If it is the same spouse who both views p*rn and feels bad about it, that is a problem. If one spouse views p*rn and the other feels bad about it, that’s also a problem. If one spouse views p*rn and neither care, then that doesn’t seem to be a problem for them. Let’s leave that third scenario out of the discussion and focus on the first two. Maybe then we can actual help each other instead of running around in aimless circles.

    And I really don’t think a good solution is “Stop feeling bad about it - it’s not p*rn”. All of the arguments about how naive LDS people are aside, the bad feeling is a pretty good indication that something is wrong.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 21, 2008 @ 10:08 pm

  183. well said stephanie. Again!

    Comment by mellocello — May 21, 2008 @ 10:39 pm

  184. It’s my feeling that the P*rnography industry is creating more sexual predators every day. When the soft stuff doesn’t do it any more, where do you go? Unfortunately, it’s all too easy. And when pictures just don’t do it, you might find a human being to use. We’re going to run out of prison space.

    Any sources for that little nugget of complete ludicrousness? Seems like the around the bloggernacle lately every post could basically be summed up with ‘the sky is falling!’

    Or maybe the Lord will bless you with a smart, strong and funny wife with whom you can spend your whole life with and never run out of things to talk about! How about that instead!

    Or maybe neither cause I’m pretty sure women aren’t God’s carnival prize for the winners who serve missions, no matter what the reasons they want to marry us.

    Jason may have not have put enough nuance in his argument, but essentially what he says is mostly true, especially this:

    The failure to examine the general misandry here is astonishing as are the generalizations so broad, it’s quite clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about concerning pornography…….A bigger point that was lost is that the definition of addicted is overly broad. This is true of society at large. The word is now used to describe anything done habitually which another disproves of.

    Comment by veritas — May 22, 2008 @ 12:38 am

  185. I have tried to refrain from using the word “addicted” loosely… I’ll have to go back over my comments and see how spectacularly i have failed at that…

    in my own case, my husband was addicted. He did it several hours a day, he spent thousands on it, he lied to people about needing money so he could get it, and he neglected our daughter to be able to pursue the habit. I think this qualifies as addiction.

    I do think, though, that some people fly off the handle when they find a spouse/partner/friend has looked at it and automatically assume they have a porn habit. Some will say that even looking at it more than once (coming back for more) is the beginning of an addiction… personally I like my definitions more operational than that. It’s the psych major in me, I guess. :)

    Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 12:58 am

  186. the definition of addicted is overly broad. This is true of society at large. The word is now used to describe anything done habitually which another disproves of.

    Jason and Veritas, you might want to read a few definitions of the term addiction before making or agreeing with such a statement.

    ad·dic·tion (n.)
    1. Compulsive physiological and psychological need for a habit-forming substance;
    2. The condition of being habitually or compulsively occupied with or or involved in something.
    Source: The free dictionary>

    Addiction: A chronic relapsing condition characterized by compulsive drug-seeking and abuse and by long-lasting chemical changes in the brain. Addiction is the same irrespective of whether the drug is alcohol, amphetamines, cocaine, heroin, marijuana, or nicotine. Every addictive substance induces pleasant states or relieves distress. Continued use of the addictive substance induces adaptive changes in the brain that lead to tolerance, physical dependence, uncontrollable craving and, all too often, relapse. Dependence is at such a point that stopping is very difficult and causes severe physical and mental reactions from withdrawal. The risk of addiction is in part inherited. Genetic factors, for example, account for about 40% of the risk of alcoholism. The genetic factors predisposing to addiction are not yet fully understood.
    Souurce: Medterms.com

    You’ll notice that neither definition includes disapproval from someone else. Dependence with “severe physical and mental reactions from withdrawal” are its hallmarks. The chemical addiction to sex is the neurotransmitter dopamine (along with a cocktail of other hormones), which produces feelings of euphoria. Dopamine plays an important role in helping us be drawn to activities that help ensure our species’ survival (sex) by giving us a reward for sexual behavior. Abuse of dopamine by conscious, excessive stimulation of the mind to release dopamine is characteristic of an addiction, no matter how society approves or disapproves of the way the stimulation occurs.

    You might want to read a simple article on sexual addiction before making a statement about it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_addiction

    I think I understand what you’re trying to say: that society is wont to assign addiction to everyone these days based on activities that have the potential for causing addictive behavior (not just drugs and alcohol, but also internet use, social networking, t.v. watching, eating, exercise, etc.). Sexual addiction is different than a healthy, or even a “strong” sex drive. I agree that use of pornography doesn’t equal sexual addiction, but habitual, compulsive use of pornography is indicative of a sexual addiction.

    Comment by Observer — May 22, 2008 @ 6:50 am

  187. Veritas-I figured someone would call me on that eventually. True, true. I definitely don’t consider myself a prize.

    Comment by Racheldmc — May 22, 2008 @ 8:55 am

  188. the generalizations so broad, it’s quite clear that many of you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about concerning p*rnography…….A bigger point that was lost is that the definition of addicted is overly broad.

    All right, veritas and Jason. Let’s look at what the church says about the addiction argument.

    It can become addictive. Repeatedly viewing p*rnography, especially when coupled with self-stimulation, can become habitual, even addictive. The addiction is established when a person becomes dependent on the “rush” of chemicals the body creates when one views p*rnography. He or she learns to depend on this activity to escape from or cope with life’s challenges and emotional stressors like hurt, anger, boredom, loneliness, or fatigue. This dependency becomes very difficult to break and sometimes escalates to sexual encounters outside the bonds of marriage.

    Note the use of the word can.

    President Hinckley has also said, that through its use “the minds of youth become warped with false concepts. Continued exposure leads to addiction that is almost impossible to break.”

    Where did Pres. Hinckley get his scientific evidence? I don’t know, but I also don’t think he needs it. According to the gospel topics website of lds.org, one of the roles of a prophet is to “speak boldly and clearly, denouncing sin and warning of its consequences. At times, they may be inspired to prophesy of future events for our benefit . . . Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church”.

    I guess that’s enough for me to make the statement that p*rn can be addictive and should be avoided.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 10:08 am

  189. I think my comment about child p*rn got caught in the filter. Dang it.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 10:10 am

  190. Observer, my point is about the use of the word addiction and how its use has increased by people disapproving of something. It’s not uncommon to hear accusations of computer games or even texting being “addictive” and then adding an increasing number of people to that pool. (Anything can be addictive, especially with people with obsessive-compulsive disorders.)

    Interestingly, we even use the word on ourselves; how often do we say “I’m addicted to chocolate” or something comparable? In this case, we often use addiction as an excuse. (In the case of pornography and LDS leaders, it’s quite effective, even if the person is a grandfather who molested his granddaughters.)

    “The pornography industry”

    My point was that there is not a monolithic pornographic industry as is often portray by many opponents of pornography. There is no cartel or conspiracy or single entity that could be controlled. The extreme variety of porn and erotica available belies this.

    My point about nude drawings was simply to illustrate that by many porn opponents’ definition, any depiction of sex or sexuality or anything which causes a sexual response is pornography and thus part of this “industry.”

    Sex and violence.

    I first read about this while doing a psychology paper at BYU in the mid-80s. I expected there to be at least a correlation between pornography and sexual violence. I was quite stunned to find the opposite. Repeated studies have supported this conclusion, the most recent of which involved Japan (look at studies by Dr. Milton Diamond and Dr. Berl Kutchinsky among many others.)

    Do note that there is one caveat: Some studies found that depictions of extreme violence and sex combined, even if the sex itself wasn’t violent, does cause an increase in sexual violence. I’ve wondered if this would include some mainstream horror movies.

    Comment by Jason — May 22, 2008 @ 10:12 am

  191. Anthony D’Amato (Northwestern University School of Law)
    Porn Up, Rape Down

    “The incidence of rape in the United States has declined 85% in the past 25 years while access to pornography has become freely available to teenagers and adults. The Nixon and Reagan Commissions tried to show that exposure to pornographic materials produced social violence. The reverse may be true: that pornography has reduced social violence.”

    Milton Diamond (University of Hawaii, Manoa) and Ayako Uchiyama (National Research Institute of Police Science)
    Pornography and Rape in Japan

    “Within Japan itself, the dramatic increase in available pornography and sexually explicit materials is apparent to even a casual observer. This is concomitant with a general liberalization of restrictions on other sexual outlets as well. Also readily apparent from the information presented is that, over this period of change, sex crimes in every category, from rape to public indecency, sexual offenses from both ends of the criminal spectrum, significantly decreased in incidence.”

    Comment by Eugene — May 22, 2008 @ 10:16 am

  192. anything CAN be addictive …. should we avoid everything that CAN be addictive? But really, I’m not looking to get into that argument again. :)

    As for the minds of youth comment Hinckley made, I agree. I don’t think youth (at least most of them) are capable of deciphering through the various different motives and types of p0rn to recognize something that isn’t a ’stereotype.’ I would argue though, that adults who are specifically looking for something regarding sex in particular do have that capacity (at least some adults do.) :)

    I think another thing the church said struck me… (p0rn mixed with self stimulation). Hmmmm…. maybe that’s the difference in why I do not feel bad looking nor does my husband. We aren’t looking to self stimulate at all. We are looking to either gain knowledge in some technique or whatever or looking for other ideas to enhance our life in the bedroom. Do we get turned on by the ideas presented? SURE… it’s what you then do with it that might make the difference. We go straight to eachother.

    Comment by Elise — May 22, 2008 @ 10:32 am

  193. elise… I don’t know that I agree with your definition of pr*n. (there, look, I did it, distaseful as it is to me… I almost feel like I’m swearing, typing that asterix in there, lol).

    I think that looking at diagrams, descriptions (and even pictures, though I think that would make me personally feel somewhat uncomfortable) for the purpose of learning about sexuality and “techniques” and information to inform a real, living, breathing sexual relationship is not pr*n, but education.

    I do think that if a husband views it for the purpose of arousal it is pr*n, though. So I guess some of what you have said, I disagree with… because I don’t personally think pr*n enhances a relationship (especially if only one partner is doing it, for his or her own pleasure and at the exclusion of the other partner.) But like I said, the church has stated to religious leaders in particular to take a “hands off” approach to sexuality within marriage, and so, unless you personally have an objection to your husband’s viewing it or he has an objection to yours, I suppose there’s no way to say that’s even my business to judge. Though I personally would not be OK with it, that’s my relationship, not yours.

    I just got up a guest post about a man who struggled with masturbation his whole life, and had intense feelings of guilt about it. his exposure to sexuality, and also pr*n happened when he was very young, and he struggled with habits that were ingrained by the time he was an adolescent. I think you’re right that youth are incapable of really handling what sexuality is and how they feel about it without the help of loving, honest parents. I think you’re right that kids can’t handle the stereotypes, either… unfortunately, a huge percentage of them are exposed at an early age, with nobody to help them handle them.

    Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 10:44 am

  194. Eugene, so what? We should encourage p*rn because then we will decrease rapes even more? It’s a net positive to our society?

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 10:47 am

  195. Elise- I think that you and your husbands situation is different than what is being addressed by Stephanie and really in this whole post.

    The whole issue is about p0rn/masturbation and addiction. How would you feel about your boys developing a habit of viewing p0rn and masturbating? Will you allow them access to p0rn? Or do you feel it is primarily appropriate to view as a married couple?

    Those of you who doubt that p0rn can be addictive I think may not have had many experiences with it. I have friends in and without the church who have been and are addicted to p0rn and masturbation. I understand that occasional masturbation can be a natural thing. But when someone feels a compulsion to do both of these things on a daily level, particularly when they are stressed or tired as mentioned in Stephanies post above, how can you deny that that is an addiction? That is the typical behavior of an addict (alcoholics, overeaters etc.).

    I also believe that the propensity toward becoming addicted to p0rn or masturbating is not at all exclusive to religious people. As I mentioned before, I have plenty of friends outside of the church who have struggled with it.

    Comment by Racheldmc — May 22, 2008 @ 10:49 am

  196. Good, Elise. Because I’m not either. Although I have noticed that almost all of the “vices” the church says to avoid (alcohol, tobacco, p*rn, gambling, etc.) are behaviors or substances that CAN be addictive. I think this is because it is a way for Satan to take some of our free agency by entrapping us. On the flipside, programs like Personal Progress are meant to establish righteous patterns of living (habits). But, all habits are not created equal, and neither are all addictions. In the same article I quoted above, it says,

    P*rnography defiles and degrades the body and spirit . . . Prophets have taught us that putting p*rnographic images into our minds is detrimental to our spirit and that in so doing, we jeopardize our ability to have happiness and joy.

    I don’t want to play “what sin is worse”. Does it matter? I would think the objective for us individually would be to maintain as much freedom as possible, and avoid any addiction that would limit that.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 10:52 am

  197. Also, that particular quote includes masturbation, but not all of them do. When the prophet advises against p*rn, he doesn’t always use “coupled with masturbation” as a qualifier.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 10:54 am

  198. Elise, that last comment wasn’t directed to you and your husband - I just wanted to clarify for general readership.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 10:58 am

  199. Hi Racheldmc,

    Actually with our boys we are very open about nudity in our house (not that we are naked mind you) but being that I am an artist, a lot of our house has bronze sculpture of nude women dancing - running - etc etc. It’s not about their sex organs, it’s about being ‘free’. (Before Jason says anything: I have tried several times to sculpt the male form, but seriously… penises are kinda silly in sculpted form.) :D hee hee.

    Anyway, we have bought a book that shows girls all sorts of other naked girls and how wonderful different bodies are and stuff. It’s called “Body Drama” if anyone wants to google it and I highly recommend it for young women. Anyway, my sons can look at it too if they choose, just as my daughter can look at the book I’ve purchased for my sons on puberty for boys. It’s not about ‘SEX’ it’s about de-mystifying our bodies and feeling comfortable about ourselves.

    My point is… I’m hoping my children recoqnize the difference between how beautiful both bodies are and what society does to ‘tweak’ it. I’m going to hope my kids can let me know when they have experimented with themselves. I’m not going to make them feel guilty in the slightest. I think self-control does not equate with the obsession NOT to touch yourself. I’m just going to say “Yep, sometimes we do that, but trust me… it will be much different when you are married and with a partner - in the meantime just relax about it and if you do want to do that please do it your room.” Kind of like I do with them at this stage with nose picking! :)

    All I know is I want to make sure my boys especially do NOT feel the incredible guilt and self loathing my hubby did growing up for masturbating once in a while.

    Comment by Elise — May 22, 2008 @ 11:05 am

  200. My point about understanding men isn’t to excuse all of their behavior any more than understanding women excuses all of their behavior. But understanding does lead to better communication and it does let you excuse quite a bit of behavior once you realize it’s non-threatening and inconsequential.

    I was also intimating that it helps that simply looking at a husband’s porn viewing without understanding the male psyche AND without understanding your own behavior and influence in that viewing is unfair to him and doesn’t help to solve the larger marital problems than may exist. Simply to illustrate, I would think that discovering a husband is viewing gay porn would be of much greater concern than if he were simply looking at nude women.

    My take is that all this is more about control than anything else. (Yes, there are many exceptions.) It is about the spouse with the lower libido controlling the spouse with the higher libido. While the male is more often the one with the higher libido, for many couples it is reversed. Unfortunately, I think religion and the “pornography is evil/nasty/whatever” memes are used like weapons. (Pornography isn’t alone in this. I’ve seen alcohol, work and even church used in the same way.)

    Final point, then I’ll free you all from my rantings. For many of you women who have complained about your husband here, have you considered marriage counseling from a trained professional? (Bishops are not trained professionals.)

    Comment by Jason — May 22, 2008 @ 11:09 am

  201. Stephanie,

    I agree… any addiction is problematic and should be avoided. I guess it all is in how you decide how to avoid addiction.

    Some will walk as far from the line as possible, never even daring to look at an “Adam and Eve’ catalog (which are great catalogs by the way)… Some get a little closer to the line but still don’t fall off… others do fall off and addiction occurs.

    I’m taking the middle road in life I guess (walking a little closer to the line - with increasing knowledge, but still not going over). I drink Coke (although some avoid it) I go to sex shops with hubby (although some would avoid it) I even play penny slots on the rare occassion we are Vegas. My only current addiction is stupid Solitaire on my cell phone and trust me when I say I am ‘bound’ by this vice. :)

    Anyway, some people may avoid everything that could be construed as dangerous… I’m just not built that way. I’m too curious, too seeking and really… I DID touch the stove just because my mother warned me not to. I wanted to learn for myself - which may or may not be considered a flaw in my character.

    Comment by Elise — May 22, 2008 @ 11:22 am

  202. Hey Jason,

    I agree with your last post… It’s all about communication and realizing we all are individual and very bizarre creatures. :)

    One caveat to your gay p0rn example… I was reading from a noted sex author that a lot of times straight men look at gay porn simply because they are curious about what other men look like (how they compare etc. etc.) She went on to say that women can simply and easily find porn to fuel their curiousity on women’s anatomy but the same cannot be said for men. So some straight men can ’stumble’ into gay porn sites simply to be able to look at men’s bodies. It would be best not to jump to the conclusion your guy is gay simply cause he went there… find out the motivation first.

    Now… kiddy p0rn is whole different animal and I don’t think my hubby would have an excuse in He11 to be looking at that stuff.

    Comment by Elise — May 22, 2008 @ 11:49 am

  203. I’ll agree, too, Elise. It is up to each of us individually to decide how we are going to manage our own temptations.

    Jason, you almost had me, and then lost me again. Good points about seeking to understand men and evaluating our own behavior as women. Also about not controlling your spouse.
    I still don’t agree with your underlying insinuation that p*rn is “non-threatening and inconsequential” and should be excused.

    This may just be me, but I really hope that the whole conversation here can get away from justifying or excusing p*rn and move toward helping/coping with p*rn in a marriage. I remember an article in the Ensign a while back about a woman who forgave and helped her husband to overcome his addiction. It really caused me to think about what I would do in that situation (I honestly don’t know). Sare’s story here caused me to think about it again. Considering that “90% of men have viewed p*rn” or whatever statistic someone cited on here, this is an issue that a lot of marriages must deal with. The fact that 90% have doesn’t make it normal or acceptable - just common.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 11:50 am

  204. It’s my feeling that the P*rnography industry is creating more sexual predators every day. When the soft stuff doesn’t do it any more, where do you go? Unfortunately, it’s all too easy. And when pictures just don’t do it, you might find a human being to use. We’re going to run out of prison space.

    I think the analogy to drug tolerance is tempting to apply to p*rnography, but I suspect that it’s generally false. I think some things might make it more progressive. If someone enjoys the naughtiness of partaking of the forbidden fruit, then when some form of p*rnography no longer tweaks a person’s conscience like it used to, they might seek out more guilt inducing forms.

    I think this is generally the case with members of the church who assume they have a p*rn addiction. They are largely motivated by the forbidden fruit syndrome.

    If p*rn is viewed primarily because of simple sexual arousal, then I think most people find a form of p*rn that they’re comfortable with and stick to that.

    Observer, seems to me that those men are weeding themselves out. Would she want to be married to a man who didn’t understand the Atonement and repentance? To some it might not matter, but to me it does. She deserves better than the men she’s dated, and I am sure she’ll find it. The men in Utah are not all bad.

    I suspect that you are seriously underestimating the number of LDS men who believe themselves to have a p*rn problem. If someone avoids all these men, then they hold a largely unrealistic standard for their partners.

    All of the arguments about how naive LDS people are aside, the bad feeling is a pretty good indication that something is wrong.

    My daughters are sensitive souls, especially my oldest. Sometimes I make false assumptions about what they’re doing, get angry at them, and raise my voice (I never yell). This can bring repentant tears to their eyes even though they were completely innocent.

    Feelings of guilt can sometimes be misguided. And authority figures can sometimes misjudge our actions.

    But when someone feels a compulsion to do both of these things on a daily level, particularly when they are stressed or tired as mentioned in Stephanies post above, how can you deny that that is an addiction? That is the typical behavior of an addict (alcoholics, overeaters etc.).

    What do you do to relieve stress? :) Not all stress coping mechanisms are negative or addictive. However, I agree that anything can be done to excess.

    Regarding the discussion of masturbation and p*rnography for self-stimulation in married couples, as a recent fMh post showed, many people are in relationships with partners of very different levels of libido. Masturbation (and p*rnography) can help relieve some of the tension is such situations because one spouse isn’t held hostage to the sexual appetite of the other. If this leads to a sexless marriage, something needs to be done, but this is not an inevitable result of p*rnography and masturbation.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 22, 2008 @ 12:05 pm

  205. Really good points Jonathan. :)

    Comment by Elise — May 22, 2008 @ 12:11 pm

  206. This may just be me, but I really hope that the whole conversation here can get away from justifying or excusing p*rn and move toward helping/coping with p*rn in a marriage.

    That’s what I thought I was doing. :)

    I’m trying to say that, in my experience, one of the best ways to cope with p*rn in a marriage is to avoid assuming that it is a problem. It may be, but assuming that p*rn (whatever that means for you) threatens your marriage may be creating a problem where none exists.

    It’s a silly analogy, but it would be like assuming that if your husband watches sports, then your marriage is on the downhill slide. Maybe sports will end up isolating him from you and your family. Maybe it won’t. But assuming that it will causes unnecessary conflict.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 22, 2008 @ 12:20 pm

  207. Stephanie,

    Just as porn or erotica can be destructive to a relationship, it can also enhance it. Likewise, romance novels are usually benign, but some women may find disappointment in their own relationships if their spouse doesn’t live up to the fantasy. (My own mother-in-law gets upset about any sexual suggestive videos or pictures, yet reads arguably even more unrealistic, and quite bawdy, romance novels.)

    I now defer to Jonathan’s post.

    Comment by Jason — May 22, 2008 @ 12:20 pm

  208. I think we need to turn the conversation back to its original intent. I’m not arguing (and never did) that consenting couples are evil if they have porn as a part of their sexual relationship. Though I don’t really agree with it and wouldn’t do it myself, that’s absolutely not my call.

    I think we’re all posting at cross-purposes right now. Some of you are highly sensitive to the idea that pornography is “overblown” as a sin and that someone might be labeled an addict when really they’re just curious or an occasional user or even a usual user who just hasn’t decided he or she thinks it’s wrong. About these situations, I say, to each his/her own. Your decision, not mine. Not my business.

    How about let’s make this a friendly place now, for people who really are struggling with a porn addiction. Or whose spouse is struggling. Or even someone who has a spouse who looks at it occasionally and does not feel OK with that and is struggling with a way to express him/herself, and is looking for help… that’s why I began this. And I want to make sure those people don’t feel sidelined and unable to talk about their struggles. There are enough people out there who say porn is not bad in any situation, deal with it, it’s just life, that there are hardly any venues where people feel safe discussing their objections to it, or asking for advice about it when they feel victimized by it. Elise, Jonathan, I respect what you’re doing, and for the most part I agree with your intent… but I think it might belong in another facet of the discussion. Yes all guys (and girls) struggle with how to express their sexuality, particularly when they don’t have an “ecclesiastically approved” vent for it. But I’m not sure that’s what this discussion is about?

    Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 12:28 pm

  209. just realized I forgot to asterix myself… I’m so sorry mfranti. :(

    Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 12:29 pm

  210. If p*rn is viewed primarily because of simple sexual arousal, then I think most people find a form of p*rn that they’re comfortable with and stick to that

    If this is true, then why doesn’t it work for sex in a marriage? Why do married couples become bored with sex if doing the same thing over and over can give simple sexual arrousal?

    I suspect that you are seriously underestimating the number of LDS men who believe themselves to have a p*rn problem. If someone avoids all these men, then they hold a largely unrealistic standard for their partners.

    You completely misread my quote and its context. I wasn’t referring to p*rn at all. I was talking about men who wouldn’t date a woman because she wasn’t a virgin.

    I’m trying to say that, in my experience, one of the best ways to cope with p*rn in a marriage is to avoid assuming that it is a problem. It may be, but assuming that p*rn (whatever that means for you) threatens your marriage may be creating a problem where none exists.

    Okay, let’s assume that as a married woman, you and your spouse have already determined that the p*rn is a problem. Can we continue the discussion from there? Because it seems to me that there are probably women reading this forum who are in this situation and are looking for a safe place to talk about it. Comments like above send this message: “It’s no big deal. It’s not a problem. Get over it. It’s normal” and IMO, make this an unsafe place to talk about it.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 12:30 pm

  211. It might be time to start another post, and make that explicitly clear from the get go. Most people’s interest or attention in posts wanes after the first day it goes up. We’re already on day 4, and theres only 6-7 making regular comments anymore.

    Make the post clear that we’re:
    1) not seeking to define the term pr0n0graphy
    2) not seeking to gather quotes from GAs about pr0n’s effects
    3) cognizant of the fact that there are many types of pr0n, and that all are not equally exploitative, extreme, etc.
    4) hoping to establish an environment where people can share ideas about how to have open discussions about pr0n use in marriage (either to confess, to explore options, set parameters for use, etc.)

    Another post topic related to this, but not directly so, is to explore how one might discuss pr0n and “the big M” with our children without building up the layers of guilt that have affected so many of us in regard to sexual expression. The rising generation will have grown up having unprecedented access to sexual media, and we need to give them real tools for navigating those waters responsibly.

    Comment by Observer — May 22, 2008 @ 1:02 pm

  212. Good point, Observer, although I think you are probably talking about a different post than seems the original intent of this post. One would be Sare’s, to help people who are dealing with p*rn addictions in their marriage, and the other one would be one that you seem to be describing: “:to explore options, set parameters for use”. Those seem two very different discussions to me, probably with different participants. If I saw the parameters for the one you are describing, I’d say to myself, “Self, this is somewhere you don’t want to go” and would spare ya’ll the GA quotes.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 1:09 pm

  213. sare,

    How about let’s make this a friendly place now, for people who really are struggling with a porn addiction.

    I can respect that goal, but request that we don’t self diagnose. As Jason has been pointing out, LDS folk are too quick to diagnose a p*rn addiction. I hope that anyone who suspects that they are addicted would find competent professional help. (I don’t have any experience with LDS Social Services, but I’ve heard anecdotal evidence that some there compromise professional standards in favor of following the LDS folk wisdom and doctrine, so caveat emptor.)

    Stephanie,

    If this is true, then why doesn’t it work for sex in a marriage? Why do married couples become bored with sex if doing the same thing over and over can give simple sexual arrousal?

    This is the well known (and widely experienced) Coolidge effect, named for President and Mrs. Coolidge. This is a threadjack, so I’ll keep it brief. I suspect this happens because human beings aren’t hardwired for lifelong, faithful monogamy. Men and women seek variety in their sexual partners. When we live in lifelong monogamy (a good thing in my book), then what we lose in variety of sexual partners we seek in variety of sexual practice. This doesn’t translate well to p*rn where variety of… partners (?) isn’t a problem.

    You completely misread my quote and its context. I wasn’t referring to p*rn at all. I was talking about men who wouldn’t date a woman because she wasn’t a virgin.

    You’re right. My apologies. I think, however, if I’m not mistaken, these men who refuse to marry non-virgins were brought up as a comparison to women who refuse to marry men who look at p*rn.

    Okay, let’s assume that as a married woman, you and your spouse have already determined that the p*rn is a problem.

    Like I mentioned above, I respect that goal. I hope people with real problems get help. I also hope those who just believe they have a problem can avoid unnecessary pain because they have misdiagnosed themselves.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 22, 2008 @ 1:15 pm

  214. Stephanie,

    I hope you don’t see my most recent comment as an attack on you. I was just identifying topics we’ve already covered in this post that wouldn’t need to be rehashed for the next post. The topics I’ve identified are my own, of course, and may not be what you’ve observed and read. I have appreciated your comments because they help us all see the big picture a little more clearly. If the context of a new post is addiction, then my list should certainly be amended.

    Comment by Observer — May 22, 2008 @ 1:17 pm

  215. Sare,

    I appreciate that you want women (or men) who view P0rn as an issue to be free to speak out.

    My concern would be that it becomes a bully club for the person who is viewing the p0rn. In the same stance, how then can people who view p0rn ever feel safe expressing why they do.

    Perhaps both sides can discuss it because frankly, when you hear the other ’side’ it can open up new ideas one has never thought of. If the only posters agreed that all p0rn is bad, and were consoling eachother over their marital concerns, I think a valuable forum is missed.

    Yes, it is clear we have people who abhor it an others who condone some of it. I think that is why this forum is 200+ posts. If you suddenly say, only those who want to offer sympathy to the non-p0rn viewing spouse can post, a whole group of us can’t share our own experiences and maybe even insight. I’ve learned from Stephanie across the aisle, not sure if she’s opened up at all my way, but still these cross opinions, experiences and voices are important so that it doesn’t just become a ‘victim’s rally’.

    Comment by Elise — May 22, 2008 @ 1:22 pm

  216. No, Elise, I haven’t “opened up” in the sense that I am willing to do the things you do. But, I also don’t condemn you for doing them and even do understand more. I admit my eyes have opened to a bit more “gray” (even though I’m not interested). I do think that two different posts with clear guidelines and expectations at the top would be helpful.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 1:26 pm

  217. I understand, Observer. I didn’t take it as such. I do think that this whole thread has helped “open up the can of worms” to focus future discussion.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 1:28 pm

  218. Stephanie, you seem determined to miss the point. When it comes to improving society, the challenge is to differentiate between politically correct or popularly accepted solutions and solutions that actually address the problem.

    During an early 19th century cholera epidemic, William Farr and John Snow did a statistical analysis (one of the first cases of applied epidemiology) to show that cholera was water-born, and not caused by “miasma” (air-born).

    But it took decades for this theory to take hold, because the idea that “foul odors” caused disease seemed so obvious and commonsensical, as opposed to “invisible” bacterium in water.

    So when repeated statistical analyses in completely different parts of the globe show a negative correlation between X and Y, it really might be more helpful to look elsewhere for the primary cause.

    To put it another way, the “foul odors” were an effect of the same fetid water that carried the cholera bacillus, not the cause of the cholera bacillus. Maybe some things we identify as causes are really effects.

    Of course, that doesn’t meant that we should pretend that “foul odors” are pleasant or should proliferate unchecked. But we should be careful about using personal aesthetics as epidemiological yardsticks.

    And yes, human agency is a net positive: toleration of behavior that “doesn’t break my leg or pick my pocket.” Regimes that censor sexually-oriented material the most are very often the same ones that repress women the most.

    Comment by Eugene — May 22, 2008 @ 1:32 pm

  219. Thanks for the clarification, Eugene.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 1:39 pm

  220. So, assuming we’re getting back to an actual discussion aimed at helping those who have been damaged by p*rn, like sare suggested, then I will chime in. Funny, but I found fMh because of an internet search related to my husband’s p*rn problem and have been a regular reader since that time.
    My husband was exposed to p*rnography at a young age (7-8 years old) in several different forms due to his father’s use of p*rn. His father was an upstanding family man, Melchizedek priesthood holder. The fact that he used p*rn was never discussed, but everyone in the family knew that he did. Sexuality was not discussed in my husband’s home except to say that “s*x is sacred.” My husband grew up conflicted and confused about his own s*xual feelings. He turned to p*rn as a teenager and then again as a young adult after his mission. When we married, he quit and then began again just a few months into our marriage. I found out about it a year into our marriage, we cried, yelled, went to the bishop, prayed a lot, and I thought it was over. Yeah, right. I didn’t find out about it again until nine years into our marriage. I found it on his computer. I confronted him. He admitted that he had never really gotten over it. Not only had he not gotten over the viewing of magazines, videos, and internet, but he had moved on to strip clubs (including propositioning a stripper), voyeurism, and had contemplated hiring a prostitute. I had begun suspecting something was wrong before I actually caught him due to the fact that he was not as interested in s*x as he used to be. As a matter of fact, he really wasn’t touching me at all. So, it took several days for my husband to confess to everything involved in his addiction. He admitted to having viewed every kind of p*rn out there. He said that with each cycle that he went through, it would start with “soft” stuff, and progressively get worse and worse until he was viewing violent, horrifying stuff. As for the voyeurism, he was trespassing and he was spying on women as they were dressing in the morning or undressing at night.

    Now, starting with his childhood: I am absolutely of the opinion that the more information that kids get from their parents about s*x and their bodies, the better. The mixed messages that he received as a child (not talking about it, but knowing that his dad used p*rn) were hurtful and part of the problem. Next, when his p*rn usage came out the first time, I think a lot of problems would have been prevented had the bishop suggested that we go to a counselor and explore the issue further. Instead, it was just suggested to “try not to think about it” and “pray for help”. It addressed none of the underlying issues at all. The only thing that has gotten us through this time has been counseling and lots and lots of discussion and research about the problem. I had never heard anything before relating to the studies in Japan about the rate of rape going down with the increase of p*rn and am interested in investigating that further. Regardless, those statistics do not speak at all to men and women who are personally struggling with this problem. It is not okay to just tell someone that it’s not big deal, it’s natural, get over it. It is beyond reprehensible to tell a woman that if only she were more beautiful, sexy, or s*xually available, that her husband would not be into p*rn. Regardless of whether the husband and wife do have different s*x drives and that is an issue that needs to be examined, telling the wife that she is just not good enough will absolutely be devastating and of no value at all. As for studies and evidence relating to the devastation caused to couples and familes because of p*rnography, there are plenty of case studies and lots of information out there. I personally think Dr. Victor Cline does a great job explaining the problem. So, I guess my point in sharing all of this is that making generalized statements will not serve the individuals suffering through problem with p*rnography. I was amazed at the number of cases that I read about in which my husband was described exactly. The problem with pornography, in fact, often follows the same path for many people. I can’t find whoever said it, but earlier someone said that most people are happy viewing whatever porn they are comfortable with and never getting into anything more serious. Well, on the flip side, there are many people who do get into more explicit stuff and move on to “real life” stuff. The discussion needs to revolve around what we teach our children to avoid these problems and how to help those suffering right now and “don’t worry about, it’s no big deal” attitude is getting us nowhere. Wow, that was my 10 cents, apparently, for what it’s worth.

    Comment by anonwife — May 22, 2008 @ 2:02 pm

  221. I had another thought just now in the “one-size-does-not-fit-all” vein. I consider myself a pro-feminist male, and I know my perspectives on women’s issues differ widely from many of the members of my sex. Additionally, I’m rather well-educated (at least in terms of degrees awarded), and approach topics for discussion differently from others as well (please don’t take this the wrong way: different doesn’t mean better). I wonder how these two factors (and others I haven’t articulated) color my approach to pr0n0graphy, as elucidated in my comments above? How would other men with different backgrounds respond to the topic? How do we bring their voices to the table?

    Comment by Observer — May 22, 2008 @ 2:08 pm

  222. BTW, here’s a link to an abstract about the 90% pr0n0graphy use statistic, to an article written by 6 professors, 4 of which work for BYU:

    http://jar.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/23/1/6

    Comment by Observer — May 22, 2008 @ 2:12 pm

  223. Jonathan- I used to eat to deal with stress. And I very much considered it an addiction. I think healthier ways to deal with stress can be excercise, laughter, sex with spouse etc.

    Comment by Racheldmc — May 22, 2008 @ 2:30 pm

  224. Anonwife, thanks for sharing your story. What exactly are you teaching your children? What would you suggest to others? I want to talk about sex to my own children more than my mom talked to me (nothing), but I am not sure how to do it.

    Also (and if I am overstepping the line, put me in my place), how are you handling it in light of your husband’s addiction? Specifically, what about the possibility that one of your children viewed p*rn of his at some point? Is there the possibility of the same cycle being repeated (with mixed messages)? How are you handling that?

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 2:32 pm

  225. Stephanie-

    My oldest child was only 7 at the time and my husband was always very, very careful about his p*rn use. Honestly, I’m no dummy, though I know many people would think “how did she not know”? He only used p*rn out of the house or when the kids and I were out of town. When I caught him, it was on his computer at work. Also, he worked in the computer networking industry and knew very well how to cover his tracks. I am 99% sure that my children did not know or see anything. I do not believe that the cycle will be repeated in our home because of my own (and now my husband’s) attitudes and beliefs and the things that we teach our children. My own family were not members of the church and s*x was a naturally accepted part of life. Talk about it was not hushed, it was a natural conversation. We, personally have decided to give the “big talk” to our children at age 8. We followed a book by Richard and Linda Eyre, I can’t think of the name of it right now, but it’s probably “How to talk to your kids about sex” or something. Anyway, we have been through two eight year old talks so far and they have been great. We feel like we have very open communication with our children about all aspects of life, including s*x and now we can only hope that it helps our children to avoid problems.

    Comment by anonwife — May 22, 2008 @ 2:44 pm

  226. anonwife,

    I agree that the secrecy and double life are toxic. Being able to talk about it with someone really helps.

    Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 22, 2008 @ 2:55 pm

  227. Thanks, anonwife.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 3:01 pm

  228. I just read the new post on Sare’s blog and want to recommend it. I have observed that women generally have a very difficult time understanding how men experience s*x and p*rn, why they do it and all that. Seems to me that should be at least one of the main goals of all this discussion. For me, overcoming the use of p*rn came down to a matter of learning and accepting or maybe even creating a framework for understanding what s*x and marriage is and how we fit into it all.

    Comment by happyone — May 22, 2008 @ 3:21 pm

  229. wanted to thank all of you,particularly those who have shared painful personal experience in order to mourn with those that mourn and comfort those that stand in need of comfort.Your courage and love stay with me.There is power in the process.

    Comment by wayfarer — May 22, 2008 @ 3:49 pm

  230. […] Series: Pictures of Pornography and the LDS People […]

    Pingback by Green Oasis » Mormons on Masturbation — May 30, 2008 @ 4:51 pm

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