Pictures of Pornography: JustAGuy
Here’s the latest from Sare’s series at A Fear of Flying. I’m going to try and see if one of the other permas knows how to get Sare access to our editor so she can manage the post spam filter, etc. With Lisa’s father’s death and my recent surgery, things have gotten a little behind schedule. Thus, Sare’s got a couple of posts from this series over at her blog that haven’t been cross-posted here. We may post them later, but if this is a topic of particular interest for you, check out her personal blog.
Pictures of Pornography: JustAGuy
by Just A Guy
This story is about more than porn. It is about growing up as a common LDS boy with a common hate/love fascination with sex. Only, I thought I was a rare pervert and I would surely go to hell if I couldn’t get free. That is also common.
I know my experiences were common because I’ve now met many others worse off than me. I’ve listened to others conversations and I’ve had a few heart to heart talks and I’m glad I stopped walking the path to porn addiction when I did. I hope my frank sharing will help you and others avoid this path and find a better way. I have now learned and grown up enough to understand and control sexual feelings, but it was a hard, sad way to grow up, sexually. It was like living two lives.
I grew up in a good LDS family. We went to church, had FHE, all us kids were good friends and our parents taught us the gospel and lived it too. I believe that the problems didn’t come from religion, or family, they came from our closed culture. I was never really taught about sexuality at home or at church. I learned it from the world, particularly my friends, the media, and experimentation.
Lesson: Start Young
I saw my first hardcore pornography when I was five or six years old. But I was already addicted to sex by then. Of course I had no idea how sex really took place for adults. I just knew what felt good and that it wasn’t good to feel good that way. Kids played and kids talked and I was curious. My mom caught me a few times alone and with others so I knew it was scary bad to touch there! I learned quickly to hide my curiosity from adults. They just got mad.
I didn’t really understand real sexuality until I was 10 or 11. By then, I had learned enough from other kids to know the basic body parts (that girls weren’t really broken boys), how they fit together and liked it, and that parents didn’t want us to know this, even though my friends said parents played all the time. This made me even more curious. After all, I was grown up enough (so I thought) to know and no one would tell me why it was bad, just that it was.
Lesson: Be Frank, Open, Complete, Truthful, and Uplifting
I was very confused and very curious. So I turned to the only answers I could find by experimentation and questions to older kids. My parents taught me a little here and there. They did not say that bodies were evil, but they didn’t explain why some actions were. Nor did they tell me what to expect with growing up and how to cope.
Primary didn’t help. They just talked about good people doing good things and how to be obedient. Who cared?! That just made me feel bad when I couldn’t sit still or when I knew I was doing bad things. They said “follow the Spirit.” It makes you feel warm… AND??? That didn’t mean much. “It will teach you right and wrong.” REALLY? HOW?
Now I know I felt the Spirit back then. But I didn’t know it at the time. I felt guilt. I felt frustration. I felt fear. I felt curious. I felt sidelined. I felt demeaned. All because I had questions I could not ask. I didn’t know how to hear the Spirit in all that noise. No one talked about how to control curiosity by getting answers from the right sources, like parents. When would we talk about real things? That’s what Scouts was for!
Lesson: Anticipate Exposure
Besides that early experience as a young kid, “real” porn was completely absent from my life. But I believe that a form of porn was always available to me. When you are curious, any hints or possible answers are examined carefully. I remember seeing “private parts” in shapes all around me. I was fascinated by the human body and looked at pictures anywhere I could. I remember wondering how they would fit together, and how it would feel when I grew up and got married. I listened intently when anyone described anything about sex. I learned slang, and more of the “dirtiness” of sex because that was all that was talked about. And all this was apart from church and family. This was my secret self.
I remember the feelings I felt when I first saw those Playboy magazines as a five year old. It was all about fear of getting caught doing something wrong. But I didn’t know why it was wrong. The other kids said it was. I had no idea what I was looking at. I don’t remember images, but the experience is vivid in my mind because it was forbidden. It made me so curious. That was when I needed to be taught by my parents what sex was about. That was when I needed to learn what porn was and why it was wrong. The Spirit was there, telling me, but I didn’t know what it was saying.
Events like that were repeated in other ways, time after time, as I grew up. Porn has many forms all around us. People on the street, magazines in stores, bra ads in the paper. It was all porn because I wanted to see it that way. I wanted answers but I knew I couldn’t talk about it with my parents.
Once puberty began, I discovered a new variable. I felt drives and hungers that were scary and uncontrollable. Everything was stimulating! Walking, breezes, bathing, warm sun. I knew something was wrong because nearly everything had a sexual bend to it and I thought that these feelings were evil extensions of my perversion. It didn’t make sense and it made it harder to think of other things in life. But I trusted the rules and commandments from primary and home and I tried to change.
The problem was, puberty was too late for an easy change.
Lesson: Don’t Underestimate Masturbation or the Imagination
The M word is ugly. Sex is a dirty word. I used to get a thrill looking it up in the encyclopedia. Righteous people don’t think about either and they aren’t tempted. I know because there are no stories about it.
As a teenager, I didn’t know what to do. I had lofty goals, and I was a model student and young man, on the outside. I felt like there was a demon inside. I did a good job controlling him. He was only in control in times of stress, when I was alone. Its to bad teen life is stressful. Maybe I could have thrown him out before my mission. But I didn’t quite. And I really tried. At first, I was sure that masturbation would get me excommunicated if anyone ever found out. I thought about killing myself to be free, but I knew that wouldn’t fix a sin, just keep me from getting worse. Maybe God would have mercy and put me in a lower kingdom and not send me to hell. But maybe I had committed the “unpardonable sin” because I knew masturbation was wrong and I still did it.
I read every church book I could. The Miracle of Forgiveness tore my heart out and I prayed and prayed to be free. But I was petrified to talk to the bishop. He knew my dad. And dad would tell mom and they would be so disapointed. I loved them and they loved me and this might break that.
The secret had to be kept between me and God. The scriptures were comforting. Enos’s prayer inspired me. But prayer didn’t seem to help much. Maybe in some moments of temptation, but not always. I never felt free. But I began to understand, everything. God did teach me and he did give me answers.
I read and read including non-religious books about sexuality and I eventually began to understand the difference between God’s purpose for sex and man’s twisting of it. God said masturbation was wrong while psychologists said it was natural and even necessary. I trusted the Spirit and I knew it was wrong. But I still had a habit to break.
Lesson: Don’t Expect the Church to Preserve Your Children
Church didn’t help much. No real discussions could take place there (Pres. Packer’s beeping slideshow about stages of the mind and singing hymns just doesn’t cut it). No one was willing (or felt enabled) to openly discuss sexuality’s good and bad points, answer questions and provide real support to overcome bad habits and look forward to healthy sexual expression in marriage. I think this was because most leaders didn’t know much to share, or were suffering themselves, or had “cut off the offending hand” and ignored it all together.
Don’t ask. Don’t tell. Don’t look. Don’t see.
Scouts actually caused problems by putting boys together, late at night, to talk dirty about sexual exploits without leaders noticing, explaining or correcting. And then there was my mission. If I felt mixed up as a teen, I was thrown in a blender and frappéd as a missionary.
I always wanted to be a missionary. I never felt any indecision about going. Every year that I grew closer to going, I would resolve to break my habit and enter the temple and mission a pure man. I was prepared in every way, but morally. When my mission interviews came, I was petrified. All my friends were getting mission calls and I was sure that I would be shamed before them, excommunicated, or disfellowshipped, or at least refused a mission call. I was sure the doctor giving me a physical could tell I had a longstanding habit and would turn me in.
Finally, when faced with telling a boldfaced lie to the Stake President, I had to come clean. I admitted to the big M. His only question was “Do you still do it?”
Well, of course not! I had resolved right there and then to never do it again.
That’s all that happened. No followup, or counsel, or help, or explanation, or encouragement. It is the “unseen” habit. When I failed in my resolve, I felt angry at him for just passing it over. I realized later that I was a odd case, not for the habit, but for bringing it up in the first place.
I loved my mission. It was everything a mission should be, the best of times and the worst. It transformed me. But it did not break the habit. The habit almost broke me. The tension between my secrets and my faith was so strong that I felt like Alma the Younger, wishing to be an angel, but feeling like a slave of Satan. I wish I could tell you just how excruciating that felt. At times I felt like I was one big hypocrite and then I would feel the overwhelming love of God for me, personally. But in that love I also felt his disappointment.
During this conflicted time I learned two things. I was very special to God. He knew and cared about me. Me. And Satan did too. He had worked long and hard to bury a solid hook deep inside me that was holding me back. But that didn’t make me evil. Despite my weaknesses I witnessing miracles in the work. I had a vision of what I wanted to become. I was following the Spirit and I was drawing close to God. And second, I learned how the atonement worked. I preached it until I understood it, then I wanted it for myself like nothing else.
So I went to my Mission President to confess and be free once and for all. He looked disappointed. He encouraged me to get in control. He told me that the work would suffer until I did. In two later interviews he asked how I was doing. That was it. Months later, I learned from another missionary that he had addressed the leaders of the mission and told them that one in two missionaries currently masturbates.
As horrifying as it was to hear, I suddenly had a revelation. I was not alone. Did that mean I was not a pervert?
Then my mission ended. I wish I could say that was the end of it. But no. Leaving a mission is depressing. Depression doesn’t help addictions.
Lesson: Get Help
I continued to struggle with masturbation and sexual curiosity for years after my mission. Only now, I had new challenges added on. I was not serving others all the time and the Spirit was harder to keep close. I was losing focus on the great spiritual person I wanted to be. I was expected to date, get close to girls and prepare for marriage, but stay chaste. I noticed how women looked. I had to battle wandering thoughts far more than before. Without a mission companion, I was alone. Absolutely alone.
I felt more stress than ever before and I began to feel less fulfilled by my habit. I was going to college and had easy access to the Internet. But I didn’t feel any real curiosity about porn. I had always known it was dangerous and demeaning. I also vaguely remembered it as gross.
I was fortunate to avoid porn until it found me. I was caught in a “porn storm.” Thats when a mistyped URL takes you to a site that hijacks your browser and every click to close it opens more windows on more sites. It was sickening sweet. Hunger, loneliness, shame, curiosity, horror, shock, lust and fear of discovery all rolled over me at once. After a few seconds I realized what was happening and logged out to force the windows to close.
But my body remembered the experience. It was new and enticing. But even stronger was my disgust. I never mentioned this to anyone. I just went on with life. But I didn’t change the other “softer” porn habits of thought and personal practice. Satan just had to wait for another moment of weakness to inject more shame. That came several years later when I was still not married, had just broken up again, and felt like I was doomed to be a “menace to society”.
I just felt like I wasn’t worth much to anyone. I couldn’t get a good job or make enough to win a girl over and live like everyone else seemed to. I began to feel angry at society and the church. And that’s when I decided to learn more about sex on my own and I went to the Internet, alone.
I looked up all sorts of educational stuff, learned a lot, but eventually found and viewed some porn. I did this a few times. Then I met someone that I wanted to marry. At that point, my shame was deep.
But I reached deeper into myself and remembered my mission, my goals, I realized that these sexual interests were perverted from something much more important to me and I wanted the better way.
I decided to confess to my girlfriend and to my bishop. Both were supportive. It was difficult. I worked hard and we moved on and got married.
For me, marriage was the way out. I realize that this may not work for others. My demon has tried to climb back a few times, but for me it is much easier to ignore him with a loving wife near! I wasn’t into porn very deep, either.
I don’t know what to say to those who can’t marry to be free, or who are much deeper than I ever got. I just know that sex was designed by God for good. I had a long journey with many troubles, but I’m now traveling in good company and I’m very, very happy. I also feel a great responsibility to teach my future sons and daughters with love and openness. Maybe they can avoid all this trouble and pain.
It is important to point out here that the author was exposed to p0rn at an early age. Whoever showed it to him committed a crime punishable by law—including the sex offender registry. The author also talks about being “addicted” to sex by the time he was 6. A child being victimized (shown p0rn) is simply acting out—which caused more problems down the road.
It is critical that addiction is not confused with actions (althought certainly can lead to addiction) caused by victimization.
Comment by mami — May 22, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
That necessary bit of language critique also points towards a broader question regarding addiction. As Mary Magdalene pointed out on the giganto thread, pretty much all addictions stimulate a certain portion of the brain. But a child can become a bonifide alcoholic at a young age, and nobody would really argue the definitional fuzziness, whereas I’d agree that a child certainly isn’t committing any sin which the term “p0rn addict” usually connotes (though it may not denote).
I know very little about the physiology of addiction, however, and imagine many of us don’t. Maybe someone with expertise in the area can speak to how addictions vary? Certainly the over-application of the term and its slipperiness have caused much ado on the other thread. (And I have to admit I cracked up when somebody called it “much ado about nothing” since “nothing” or “noting” can, in the vernacular of that play’s author, mean “much fuss over female genitalia. Funny!)
Comment by Janet — May 22, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
Interesting and enlightening story.
I am curious about one thing — first you said “I saw my first hardcore pornography when I was five or six years old” then later you said “I remember the feelings I felt when I first saw those Playboy magazines as a five year old”. Are you calling Playboy hardcore or are you saying you were exposed to much more graphic stuff as a little child?
Comment by Geoff J — May 22, 2008 @ 6:33 pm
You know, I feel bad for justaguy. What a tough story! But geez, curiosity about sex, masturbation, looking at porn occasionally? Isn’t that just normal? Isn’t that what we should be teaching our children and not the fear/shame/guilt (or is that what you’re trying to say here and I just missed the point?)
Comment by Jana — May 22, 2008 @ 6:49 pm
Don’t assume marriage is a way out.
My ex- husband told me it was, and I believed him. But he never kicked his habits — he preferred them to me. Like the fictional or not-so-ficitional narrator in this story, he had plenty of excuses — and he used them. (Notice how this story only blames; it gives no incite or suggestions?)
Fourteen years later, he was after other women and left me.
Mine is, of course, not the only story like this. Marriage is not going to fix this kind of a problem.
Comment by theexwifeofoneoftheseguys — May 22, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
I have an image from when I was young, maybe five years old, when I was naked with my sister and we were just playing around. I had her in the doggie position. I knew that you had to do something in that position. I don’t have any memory of seeing my parents in sex, but where else would I have this memory from?
Later in life, my father sat several times in the living room quite openly watching pornography, very very explicit. My sister and I were playing outside. But we were faking. One would pretend while the other peeked in through the open door to view the filth. On some occasions our mother would be in the kitchen.
Later after my parents divorced, my father caught me looking at some of his pornographic videos. He was disappointed but didn’t say anything. He couldn’t. The divorce stripped him of his legal rights as a father. The divorce was over the abuse he dolled on his wife and on me. Later we discovered that he sexually abused my sister. He also sexually abused both of us, by making us shower with him. He would make my sister and I wash his body, including a very hardened “boy’s part.”
So what did I do in my life? I experimented with another boy. I forced myself on my female cousin (not all the way, but I tried to get her to suck). And I learned the joys of masturbation.
I didn’t touch pornography myself until about a year after my mission. I still haven’t let go, though the use these days has been fairly light in comparison to the past. I am married and I love my wife. But I still secretly look at porn. I don’t know when I could ever tell my wife this. Maybe the afterlife?
Comment by Anonymous — May 22, 2008 @ 6:58 pm
My comment is in moderation.
Comment by Anonymous — May 22, 2008 @ 7:00 pm
mami, read it again. This magazine was shown to him by a friend near his age. If you believe that caused the whole thing you need some serious education about this issue. It’s also unrealistic to believe any boy can get through his youth without being exposed to this garbage.
Comment by happyone — May 22, 2008 @ 7:38 pm
Jana, I think you are spot on. Curiosity about this stuff is very normal. Learning to control our strongest urge is not an easy challenge in life and we should be patient with ourselves and each other.
Comment by happyone — May 22, 2008 @ 7:45 pm
Wondering about the playboy at an early age (playboy is soft core by the way, hard core =’s “money shot” or penetration shots not shown in playboy) anyhow, does a 5 year old looking at nude pics of a woman’s body that he probably doesn’t know much about or sexualize and doesn’t process any differently than seeing mom get out of shower cause feelings of guilt, shame, and addiction? I’m more prone to think not much of anything happens until the cultural training he later receives teaches him shame and starts then reevaluating all of those early instances as evolving his sex addiction. I think about the essence of Jana’s comment often. I’ve read an article in the last year in the Des. News about most common topics googled per geographic region. Utah was freakishly high in most of the top porno categories (generally in the top 2) in the nation! I’m wondering if as a culture we create abnormally high levels of “shame/fear/guilt” and this has a greater contribution to addiction as adults (vs. the occasional peek at a nudie mag).
Comment by Beekeeper — May 22, 2008 @ 7:51 pm
Anonymous- I don’t know what your wife will say, but perhaps the secret itself is worse than the problem?
Comment by Barb @ getupandplay — May 22, 2008 @ 8:00 pm
i don’t really know what to think about this one. it seems to me that very little of the commentary was actually about p*rnography - most of it seems to be a twisted guilt-shame spiral of obsession with masturbation and sexual desire. those descriptions of everything turning him on, from the warm sun to a breeze, remind me of what my husband, several male friends, and ex-boyfriends told me about their experiences in puberty. it’s practically a universal experience, as far as i can tell. as is masturbation. and i hate pornography, from a feminist standpoint, so i’d never defend it, but it’s true that it’s pretty much impossible to avoid, in one form or another. to me, the real problem seems to be not that justaguy was masturbating or feeling sexual desire, but rather that he was a) uneducated, b) not allowed to talk about his experiences, and c) condemned for his desire, all of which prompted a cycle of obsessive compulsions surrounding masturbation instead of a normal, healthy approach in which it happens on occasion but does not dominate one’s life. i think this story very well illustrates that masturbation is not the problem. the problem is the way we teach our children about sex (or do not, in this case), and how we approach the issue of inevitable experimentation (or do not, in this case - seriously, how repressed or uneducated do you have to be to think you’re the only one who masturbates?). this last is not a condemnation of justaguy but it is a condemnation of the cultural messages and parenting that he received, in which he could spend such a large portion of his life obsessing about this small activity to such a degree that it pathologizes (is that a word?) and dominates his life, his every perception of himself and others, his experiences with the divine, his relationship to other people. that is extremely sad to me. i feel very sorry for justaguy, not because he had such a problem with masturbation, but because external factors created the problem for him.
Comment by chandelle — May 22, 2008 @ 8:02 pm
#8 I was referring to the hard core p0rn, not the Playboys. If he is calling Playboys hard core p0rn, I just don’t know what to think.
#6- Respectfully asking, are you suggesting your p0rn problem now stems from your abuse? or just sharing 2 different aspects from your life?
Comment by mami — May 22, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
crap, i forgot to edit the p-word in that one.
i’ll probably be creamed for what i posted above - how dare i suggest that masturbation is usually normal and condemning it is what makes it unhealthy? so i won’t come back to read my comment be ripped apart; i’m feeling a bit delicate today.
Comment by chandelle — May 22, 2008 @ 8:06 pm
I know this guy, (real, not fictional, I promise) and the beginning of the story was sort of left out… I know he is OK with talking about it, he just wanted to focus on the part of it that invovled his habits and pornography to not muddy the waters. But when he referres to being “addicted” to sex at a young age, I think what he’s saying is he habitually masturbated already at that age. He was actually abused by an older child, (just a one time event) and it peaked his curiosity and kind of got him into the habit of frequent, habitual masturbation. The sad thing is, already at that young age, ( I think he was three or four when the abuse incident took place) he felt like he could not talk to his parents about it. He already felt shame at that age.
Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 8:07 pm
If he is calling Playboys hard core p0rn, I just don’t know what to think.
i agree. hard-core p*rn is usually defined as demonstrating actual penetration, and it’s been a while since i’ve seen a playboy, but i’m pretty sure it’s not hard-core. even hustler is not really hard-core, under that definition. (which is not to say it’s not disgusting.) i also agree with mami that #6’s p*rn habit and the abuse he received as a child are probably not related (unless, possibly, it’s child p*ornography he is viewing). sexuality deserves compartmentalization. his father’s p*rn habit almost certainly did not make him a molester, and being sexually abused almost certainly did not make #6 an observer of p*rnography. there are probably some crossed wires there, for sure, as there are for all of us, but correlation does not equal causation.
Comment by chandelle — May 22, 2008 @ 8:11 pm
oops, i’m sorry mami - i guess you were just asking a question about that, not saying that you actually disagreed. i extrapolated.
Comment by chandelle — May 22, 2008 @ 8:12 pm
chandelle,
don’t worry about being creamed by me, at least.
I think that’s sort of the point of this story… every guy does it. And every good LDS guy who doesn’t have parents to talk honestly and openly to about it thinks he is evil (OK maybe some don’t, but all the guys I’ve talked to did.) The solution?
One is obviously communication and loving education by those in his life whose role it is to educate.
Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
and if any of you are wondering why in heck some guy would tell me all this, let’s just say…
after what happened to me, and my whole personal life was made public, people came out of the woodwork. So many people just opened up and talked to me about these issues… which is when I started to become motivated to make conversations like these public. It is startling how many people think they’re the only one with a guilty secret like this. It is sad. It shows just how satan’s influence works in our lives to make us guilty, and ensnare us into feeling unworthy.
Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 8:20 pm
Distinguish. Curiosity is normal and not to be feared or shamed over. Knowingly acting is a sin.
Distinguish again. Committing a sin is not the end of life so long as we feel genuine regret and act upon it by turning to the Savior. In that case it is the beginning of healing and growth.
JustAGuy - thank you so much for the post, it mirrors some of my own feelings and experience. For me, my addiction to p0rn and masturbation began with a trigger from an ‘education’ sex book. Can I blame everything on that one book? No, it goes back in subtle ways to before that and the full blown addiction wasn’t apparent until years after, but it stands clear as the noonday sun as a turning point that took my life on a turn for the worse that built into something awful and hard to shake. Like you though, through the pain, I’ve also found the Lord reaching out to me and showing me my worth after I thought I was worthless.
To Sare and FMH generally - I’ve found these posts so wonderful and helpful to me. Unfortunately, some (not all by any means) of the comments have been nothing short of harmful and detrimental to me as an addict. I’m not blaming the commenters for my addiction, but dangit it ticks me off to hear people trying to justify the sins or denigrate the prophets or get annoyed with them. I live in this hellhole, don’t tell me it’s ok, don’t try to convince my family it’s ok, it’s not. But to everyone here (including especially JustAGuy in this post) trying to find the right balance of proper sex ed and honest openness of sexuality, thank you for showing the need to find a proper balance, not just giving in to either extreme side. Those sides being turning all sex into shame, or saying everything is natural and acceptable - both of those arguments are dead wrong and I have the wounds to prove it written in my bones.
Comment by anonymous for this one — May 22, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
Sare– The thing is, in his situation it is absolutely NOT his fault. I interpret his post as almost self-loathing and condemning. That piece of information is vital to the story. Of course he was extra curious and experimented with the reaction of his body. It is clear to me too that he still has not been able to divide his normal behavior (normal physiologicall reaction during puberty), from his extra curiosity. I feel so badly for him he had no one to talk too. He still seems to blame himself that he had the problem in the first place. It was never his problem (something he created) to begin with.
Comment by mami — May 22, 2008 @ 8:28 pm
I actually totally agree with Chandelle here.
Comment by happyone — May 22, 2008 @ 8:29 pm
Thanks for sharing your story, Just A Guy. I was very moved. About a year or so ago, I had an anonymous guest post on this site that was similar (in the sense that it talked about feeling guilty for having a sex drive). Your post, I think, was more eloquent and honest while mine was more of a whiney rant. Thanks again for being so open about your experiences. You’re definitely not alone.
Comment by Feel Like A... — May 22, 2008 @ 8:34 pm
I live in this hellhole, don’t tell me it’s ok, don’t try to convince my family it’s ok, it’s not.
–Anony for this… I think that’s the one thing I worried about it taking this public. People have differing opinions and situations, and what may be helpful in one person’s situation (for instance, someone who feels like they might go to hell for masturbating, like this guest poster might fell suddenly able to fix things if he finds out he’s not going to be thrown out of the church simply because he masturbates) can be harmful for someone else (someone like you, who is trying so hard to overcome a very real problem.) I personally don’t justify masturbation. yes it is common, no it won’t likely keep you out of full fellowship… but it is also a sin. (Sorry, I know this will ruffle some feathers.) There are lots of little sins we all commit, and unless we try to eradicate them from our lives once we’re aware they’re sins, we don’t progress.
Lol. It was really hard to write that. I hope nobody takes offense , but I’m sure some will.
Mami- you are right, right right that all that happened to him as a child was absolutely not his fault, and that the fact that his habit was established at such a young age, being nearly impossible to break at the point he realized he had a problem, makes the whole thing almost seem absolutely not his fault. But we still can’t take accountability out of it… at the point he realized it was wrong, and still did it, he was in a way accountable, don’t you think? It is a heartbreaking story. I cried when I first heard it. Cried and cried. The saddest part: he didn’t need to feel so terrible, that whole time. If he’d been given a little bit of knowledge and education and reassurance by those closest to him, he could have gotten help sooner. He could have talked to people who had more invested in him and were likely to try harder to help him with his feelings of low self-worth.
Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 8:39 pm
is masturbation a sin? where? in all cases? how does that work with the whole “church stays out of the bedroom” thing?
Comment by happyone — May 22, 2008 @ 8:47 pm
well, that’s the point, happyone. Not in all cases, and nobody could tell someone else they’re sinning… that would be wrong and judgmental. And yet we’ve had prophets tell us not to do it. erego: commandment= shame.
Mfranit, I don’t understand where you get how it would be shaming. It’s this man’s experience struggling with feelings of low self worth due to his lack of understanding about sexuality. He even talked about his realization that masturbation was a common phenomenon in the church, even among serving missionaries. I’m sorry you viewed it that way.
Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
sorry meant commandment=sin.
Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
Sare-
I agree with you. Yes, at some point we have to take accountability. I’m really glad this story was shared. Thanks for your thoughts.
Comment by mami — May 22, 2008 @ 9:17 pm
Sare, do you have references about the prophetic quotes? I sincerely want to know. I want to make sense of it.
Comment by happyone — May 22, 2008 @ 9:18 pm
I know that kimball has said masturbation is a sin. sigh. alack and alas. I do not like deliniating things like this because I don’t want good people like happyone to decide I think they’re sinners. I don’t think anyone can judge anyone else… we all have to decide where we are and what we need to change.
Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 9:21 pm
I do not like deliniating things like this because I don’t want good people like happyone to decide I think they’re sinners.
And yet this is exactly what happens when an LDS prophet says that masturbation (or homosexual sex, birth control, oral sex, etc.) is a sin. This is the root of the problem. Good people trying to do the right thing hear their prophet saying these things are sinful and then waste their lives fighting against their God-given sexuality, tearing themselves apart.
Hearing about all the shame resulting from mainstream LDS ideas about sexuality makes me… tired. It breaks my heart having experienced for myself the healing that takes place in letting go of shame and yet to see people cling to their shame like a best friend because someone they respect taught them to be ashamed.
Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 22, 2008 @ 9:35 pm
Well, there are prophetic quotes, yes. Some of them are also a little . . . weird. President Kimball said not to masturbate, because it would turn you into a homosexual. He said it in the same book where he explained that Bigfoot is really Cain.
So yeah . . . take with the appropriate dose of salt . . .
Comment by Kaimi — May 22, 2008 @ 9:36 pm
happyone, since you asked, here you go.
This is taken from the Parent’s Guide in Gospel Support Materials. I just read over this section on “Teaching Adolescents from 12 to 18 Years”. It is very good. It encourages us to be frank with our children, and supportive of them.
Regarding masturbation in particular, it says,
One example: masturbation is considered by many in the world to be the harmless expression of an instinctive sex drive. Teach your children that the prophets have condemned it as a sin throughout the ages and that they can choose not to do it. Throughout childhood, boys and girls have touched their own genitals frequently to wash and to dress. This is a behavior that usually has the same meaning as keeping one’s feet warm in the winter, enjoying a swim on a hot day, or scratching an itch. We ought to be friendly to our bodies and appreciate the body’s marvelous range of senses. This innocent touching is not the kind of behavior warned against by prophets through the ages. The sin of masturbation occurs when a person stimulates his or her own sex organs for the purpose of sexual arousal. It is a perversion of the body’s passions. When we pervert these passions and intentionally use them for selfish, immoral purposes, we become carnal.
Masturbation is not physically necessary. There is already a way by which the male system relieves excessive spermatic fluid quite regularly through the nocturnal emission or wet dream. Monthly menstrual flow expels the female’s egg and cleanses the womb. For both sexes, physical or emotional tensions can be released by vigorous activity. Thus, in a biological sense, masturbation for either gender is not necessary. In a gospel sense, it is a sin: “Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of His Church regardless of what may have been said by others whose ‘norms’ are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice” (Spencer W. Kimball, Love Versus Lust, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [Provo, 5 Jan. 1965], p. 22).
Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 9:37 pm
I looked it up. Seems pretty obvious it’s about unmarried adolescents. Not too worried.
Comment by happyone — May 22, 2008 @ 9:41 pm
Odd quote. How does mensturating relieve sexual tension for a woman? Why in the world was that compared to “nocturnal emission”.
Jonathan, however odd this quote is, I have a hard time listening to your take on the prophets teachings when from your site it would appear that you are an atheist, no?
Comment by mami — May 22, 2008 @ 9:44 pm
I don’t know, mami. I thought that was odd, too. Interesting though.
Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 9:47 pm
me too. odd!
Jonathan,
thanks for your perspective. It is interesting how varied and diverse all the perspectives are, in a setting where people are free to express themselves and feel safe doing it. We really are a melting pot of philosophies, us Mormons.
I’m tired and going off on tangents now so I think I’ll go to bed.
Comment by sare — May 22, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
(i’m back. i’m addicted.)
thanks for asking that question, mami (about menstruation and masturbation). my face was a big question mark on that one.
i’m going to be honest. reading this was really hard for me. throughout, i wondered if it was written by the last guy i dated before marriage, the man who baptized me. i know it’s not, because that man never made it on a mission. he could never go because of masturbation and what i do believe was a sincere addiction to p*ornography. now, i sided with elise and others like her in that gargantuan p*orn post from before; the terms of addiction are way overblown by the church and i believe that its emphasis on masturbation as a sin is destructive. but when i think back on that relationship, the truth is that it fell apart because of those addictions. for him, all the cliches were true: he started small, and then sought out progressively more intense and, dare i say deviant? forms of p*rn. the cycle of addiction was textbook for him and that relationship was exhausting for me, trying to support him while he was trying so hard to get over it and go on a mission and be “worthy.” not only our relationship but our friendship was destroyed by his addiction. i heard that he got married, in the temple, not too long ago, and i could not help but wonder if he had truly overcome those problems or if he had just driven it underground. it’s extremely hard for me to believe that he had successfully rehabilitated himself, given what i knew of his habits, which were bizarre and repugnant to me.
anything can become an addiction; i don’t think anybody here disbelieves the validity of sexual addiction, and this is probably just one form of sexual addiction. so while i do believe that the concern of addiction, and of masturbation especially, is overblown, i do recognize that it can and does exist as something that is destructive. i just don’t believe that masturbation is inherently so.
Comment by chandelle — May 22, 2008 @ 10:02 pm
Drive by post.
Masturbation lowers the risk of prostate cancer by a third.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352278,00.html
Masturbation has only been seen as a sin by the Mormon church in the last 40 or so years. There was a quite amazing blog post somewhere on the bloggernacle that I have misplaced…. It had quotes from the earlier part of the century that showed a very different, much more tolerant attitude towards masturbation.
Let’s all just get over it. Wank ho.
Actually, I don’t mean that quite so frivolously, but Justaguy, for all I know, he’s my brother, or some close relative. It’s pretty clear that the tremendous agony he felt was from attempting to stop a perfectly natural action. Sorry Mami. From my experience sexual desire is like hunger. If you don’t get enough, it’s all you can think about, eat something, poof–you can think about all those other things in your life.
Yes. It seems clear to me that the problem was caused, not by sexual feelings at a young age (doesn’t anyone read Freud anymore?) but by his society’s overreaction to them. (Mine, too,. Ask me about my guilt complexes sometime, assuming you have several hours of free time.)
btw, I’m preparing a post on what the research shows about on pornography and sexual crimes. Short version, the more pornography the fewer sex crimes–by quite a stunning percent. Don’t ask me why. Pllus those who commit sex crimes grow up in conservative homes with repressive sexual attitudes. Fun times.
Comment by djinn — May 22, 2008 @ 10:13 pm
Karen,
must comment on your quote from a feminist perspective…. and as a health care professional…
Over 70% of women are unable to orgasm without direct clitoral stimulation. Unfortunately not all women and even fewer men understand this concept. Furthermore, most women are unable to fully reach this state without learning the responsiveness of thier own bodies, generally achieved (and sometimes exclusively at first) through masterbation. These teachings and attitudes enrage me because they often directly and indirectly contribute to the unsatisfying sexual experience of women. I can’t tell you how often I’ve had my professional ear bent by mormon women who are miserably unsatisfied in their sexual lives. Can’t help but feel that these comments (often unknowingly by the authorities that make them who are no experts on sex and should just keep thier mouths shut or work at being very vague) undermine a healthy sexual existence for women -far more than they do for men.
Comment by Beekeeper — May 22, 2008 @ 10:19 pm
I really, really appreciate this post. I appreciate Just A Guy’s honesty. I think it is going to help me better to understand the men in my life (sons, brothers) and the challenges they face.
Two quick thoughts - both #6 and #15 show molestation as the trigger event. I don’t think we can underestimate how devastating even a one-time abuse is. It is so important to protect our children. And if it happens, it is so important to get them professional counseling and do whatever we need to do to help them work through the emotions and feelings and understand that it is not their fault.
Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 10:22 pm
lots of interesting comments.
let’s talk about addictions. anecdotally, when a desire becomes a drive that becomes overwhelming enough to control daily thoughts and actions to the point of destruction and ruination of one’s life… we’re talking about addiction. It’s easy to think about the junkie using illegal drugs - but lots of hard working folks are able to maintain a functional life while smoking dope on a daily basis.
When we look at addictions, we are examing the results of the addictive behavior: missed worked, stealing, lieing, barfing, becoming withdrawn from friends then family, etc. Those are signs and symptoms we can point to say, “I think there is a problem.”
however, we are observers in that process, until the individual acknowledges the the device that is driving them straight into the ground - we are powerless to fix them. For me, I needed a moment of clarity provided by a loving Heavenly Father that showed me what would happen if i continued to drink the way I was and it was getting worse. Addictions never get better on their own - they will only get worse, while a bad habit can be remedied through self-will and knowledge. there is a huge difference.
ok, so we’ve looked at the behavior - what is causing that behavior? and who is an addict?
there are several schools of thought on this - imagine, we can’t all agree on something
some will say (generally those in the medical science fields as they are microscope based) addictions are substances we introduce into our bodies that causes an increase in the dopamine or serotonin increase in the synaptic cleft between neurons (this is where cocaine does it’s magic). A spike in the dopaminergic mesolimbic pathway can be the result of either drugs or another stimulus that makes us feel good.
Now, alcohol doesn’t increase anything in the brain (like cocaine) since it’s a sedative - but it’s still an addictive substance, but we never self-identify as an alcohol addict.
Where does that leave us? I love science and the concreteness it brings to the table, but I am a realist. If someone wants to identify as an addict and it’s a behavior that has disrupted somebody’s life to the detriment of nearly everything else, I’m gonna offer’m a Big Book with the 12 steps and take’m to an open meeting. what’s it to me if they want to improve their lives?
at the end of the day - we can love the addict and hate the behavior. sometimes, loving them does mean family members need to be illing to cut ties in order to stay healthy themselves.
I love alcoholics and junkies - I don’t give up on them, but I have to geve them room to go back out so they can finish working on their story and return with a desire to get and stay sober. I see it every week - at the same time, I stay sober.
pet peeve of the century: relapse does not have to be a part of recovery.
how to know the difference between addiction or heavy habit? see if you can stop the behavior (drinking, drugging, prn, masterbation, sex, too much food, internet, prescription drugs, etc) for 30 days. can you do it? did trying to stop become so overwhelming for the whole month that you started counting down the days until you could pick up again? or, did the habit leave your conscious thoughts after a week or two?
it’s not a hard and fast guideline, but it can start a conversation if you’re concerned.
sisters and brothers, i love talking about this and i’m grateful you are patient with me. I am gonna make this Friday an awesome day - please join me!
Comment by Mary Magdalene — May 22, 2008 @ 10:27 pm
Along that same line, how many sexual “temptations” (for lack of a better word) can be traced back to child molestation? In my experience with talking to people personally, it seems that it is the case a lot of the time. Either molestation or date rape or something that victimizes a child/teen in a sexual way. The other behavior seems to stem from that event(s). In this post, Just A Guy didn’t mention it - sare filled in the details, but I think that the molestation explains a lot.
Perhaps in these situations, when someone is struggling with p*rn, same sex attraction, masturbation, premarital sex - things that the church cautions us not to do - AND THE PERSON WANTS TO CHANGE (I am so not interested in discussing people who are happy being gay. I am happy that they are happy), it would be helpful to go back and ask if there was an event like this in their lives. Help them to heal from that first, and then deal with the temptations.
Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 10:55 pm
Wow-I almost called my brother to ask if he wrote this post! There are a few differences, but as a whole the similarities are shocking. My sweet brother tried to commit suicide after his mission, when he went to confess to his bishop. The bishop took his temple recommend away and told him that there might be a church court for him. (Thankfully there was not, as the stake president didn’t feel like masturbation was a cause.)
My heart breaks for the shame that these people live with. The guilt my brother felt was more paralyzing than anything else. After a life of unwavering faith he is now questioning everything. Why would God not take this from him if he did everything he was taught. (Except the key element of talking his problem/concerns over with someone so he knew he wasn’t alone)
Thank You for sharing, I will be passing this along to someone who really needs to know that he isn’t alone.
Comment by texasmom — May 22, 2008 @ 10:59 pm
“Masturbation is not physically necessary.”
I’m not so sure. Maybe like eating isn’t necessary. I can always get what I need through an IV. Seriously, Maslow says sex is a basic human need. Sexual intimacy is a few tiers higher.
My own story is similar to JustAGuy. I was curious about sexuality from a young age. Discovered masturbation at 12. Liked the lingerie ads, exposed to Playboy (by another member kid) in my early teens. Didn’t get into any “real” p0rn after that until immediately after I returned from my mission. Gotta love the ‘net. JustAGuy - marriage won’t stop this for you. I want to lose the p0rn. I’m not really too conflicted about it now, but I have a moral problem with it. The masturbation? I’ve accepted it as a normal part of my sexuality. It definitely doesn’t control my life.
Comment by Joe — May 22, 2008 @ 11:01 pm
Steph, in some cases there is support for classical conditioning with regards to arousal and the age of first experience (think Pavlov and his dogs). In other situations, it’s a matter of learned behavior (think modeling).
My experience is often folks don’t know why - and that can’t really be addressed - so we’re left confronting what we are aware of. I’ve often it like this… the alcoholic refuses to admit he’s got a problem until he/she knows WHY they are this way. That’s like stating, “I’m not gonna get off the Titanic until I know WHY it’s sinking.”
Knowing ‘why’ is often a luxury we can’t wait around to learn.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — May 22, 2008 @ 11:03 pm
Good point, Mary. I’m not saying you need to always know why you face temptations. But, I’ve heard enough correlations of molestation to other things to wonder if it is the case some of the time, and if it is, to try to heal from that as part of overcoming the addiction.
Comment by Stephanie — May 22, 2008 @ 11:07 pm
Chronic Prostatitis–chronic pain in the pelvic region (the prostate), which used to be thought caused by excessive masturbation or a bacterial infection, now appears to be caused by lack of ejaculation in men. So, gee whiz, the male body was meant to masturbate; when it doesn’t ,various problems, from severe, crippling, anxiety (see above) to actual diseases occur.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1442-2042.1999.06338.x
You don’t believe me? Perhaps there’s an actual urologist who reads this blog?
Comment by djinn — May 22, 2008 @ 11:09 pm
Absolutely right Stephanie - there is a connection and if it can be addressed from the root cause - all the better. The individual suffering is often reassured it wash’t there fault when the initial source of the problem is determined to be well outside of their own doing.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — May 22, 2008 @ 11:12 pm
I must also comment on Mary Magdelene’s post about classical conditioning and learned behavior with regards to uh, sexuality. Learning to be hungry doesn’t require either classical conditioning or learned behavior. Neither do sexual feelings.
Comment by djinn — May 22, 2008 @ 11:13 pm
djinn-
That study does not say lack of ejaculation is the cause of the disease. The study says simply that is a way to treat already present disease.
Comment by mami — May 22, 2008 @ 11:14 pm
Methods: Thirty-four single male patients who avoided masturbation and extramarital sexual intercourse for personal and/or religious beliefs and who did not respond to a clinical trial of doxycycline hydrochloride therapy (200 mg daily for 4 weeks) directed against mycoplasmas, chlamydiae and ureaplasmas were enrolled in the study. They were encouraged to masturbate regularly at least twice a week and were re-evaluated at the end of a 6 month period, including a complete inquiry regarding their sexual function during this time. Response was assessed by a symptom severity index.
The strong implication is that avoiding masturbation and extramarital sexual intercourse is indeed the cause. Sorry. We really need a urologist on board. The findings, even though I can’t bring them up on google instantly, are pretty clear.
Comment by djinn — May 22, 2008 @ 11:18 pm
djinn - um yeah, you’re right - we’re born with a host of natural drives.
I was simply addressing something different Stephanie was talking about. Specifically - why do some things arouse us when others don’t and why is a history correlated with some sexual behaviors. I was stating that sometimes very first sexual experiences set us up for specific predilections. Of course, you are free to disagree.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — May 22, 2008 @ 11:24 pm
No, Ms. Magdelene, I think you’re absolutely correct. I have two female friends who were molested by their grandfathers. The grandfathers also molested, basically, all of their other granddaughters as well. Both friends have similar behavior patterns, as do their sisters and cousins.
However, aside from such severe examples, it’s difficult to get through childhood without some exposure to, uh, you know…. sex, be it cats giving birth, catching parents unawares, experimenting with neighbor boys at an extremely young age, reading medical texts, etc. Human sexuality must have some sort of resistance to such normal activities or none of us would be anything like approaching normal. Also don’t forget that the modern experience of large houses and privacy is quite recent. Very recent for those of us with more extreme pioneer ancestry–not much privacy in ths sort of tiny 2 bedroom (often the parents downstairs and the kids together in a loft) houses that many of our pioneer ancestors lived in.
Comment by djinn — May 22, 2008 @ 11:34 pm
6 — There is hope. The Atonement works. It’s okay to be scared. This is the “Thought for the Day” that I posted to the Support Forum on LDSR today: When your path of recovery requires you to go through a scary place, remember that God is already there. (adapted from a line in an episode of Touched by an Angel).
14 — Not going to rip you, because you’re partially right. And partially wrong. MB may be normal, but it’s not healthy. And the approach of piling on shame is, in fact, a contributing factor to the problem.
20 — Very good points. I’ve seen that tone many times, and felt the same way. I think some of it is getting at the idea that reducing the shame and anxiety about s(xual matters will help erode the cultural support for the addiction. And some of it is, in fact, the cultural support for the addiction, trying to be the former.
This is an issue that involves many people, and those people are at many different stages of dealing with the problem. Some of them want to minimize the problem, or pretend it doesn’t exist. Some are ready to deal with it in a real fashion. I don’t think you’re going to find a majority of the latter category without going to a specialized site like LDSR.
23 — He’s not talking about feeling guilty for having a sex drive. He’s talking about having an addiction. That involves guilt over aspects of sexual feelings that are normal, but it goes beyond that. Please try to understand what JaG is talking about in a way that’s closer to what he’s saying.
25 — Yes it is. And I don’t know where you got the idea that the Church stays out of the bedroom. Bishops aren’t going to dig into specific activities taking place between spouses, but the teachings and counsel regarding s*xual behavior have been unequivocal in pointing to certain activities, including MB, which are not okay.
38 — So what exactly is the danger of “overblowing” the concern about SA and MB? I see no danger in people being more aware that SA is widespread, or being willing to see that they are, themselves, addicted. If they’re not addicted, but they take steps to address their addiction, no harm is done. If we talk about the concerns with MB and what the dangers are and aren’t — again, not seeing the harm.
I agree with detoxing the shame about this issue, and that using shame to try to step sexual behavior is counterproductive. But there’s a huge leap between that and saying that MB is okay. And there is a not-small motivation out there to say just that — if not in all cases, then in the cases of the individuals at hand. MB isn’t uncommon, even within the Church, and people want that to be okay. You can see that in this thread.
It is not judging people to tell them that MB is sin, anymore than it’s judging people to tell them that anything else is a sin when it is. There’s no need to tap-dance about that question.
40 — I love addicts too. And I love what you have to say here. Thanks for getting it.
41 — S(xualization of children is very common, and is a pretty wide spectrum, ranging from violent molestation to exposure to s*xual material and attitudes in very subtle ways. This is just one way of distorting how s*x is understood that can lead to the appropriate twisting that can support SA. However, addictions are not about the various drugs of choice, so SA is not about s*x. Addictions are coping mechanisms for dealing with pain, and the drugs of choice are simply anesthetics chosen because they work. The solution is in turning to God to heal, whatever the addiction is to. He can heal our hearts, and healed hearts don’t have as much pain that need anesthetizing.
43 — S*x isn’t an individual need, whatever Maslow said. It’s a drive, and a species needs, but you can live without it — you can live a full and rich life without it. That’s not often necessary, but sometimes it is. If you want help in sorting this out, I’d suggest LDSR — take a look around.
46 — Not buying that. Your linked to study says “Prevention and cure are not possible because the cause of NBP is unknown.” It doesn’t claim to prove a causitive link — it indicates that people diagnosed with NBP may find relief through more frequent ejaculation. Some did, and some didn’t. The size of the sample was very small. Your claim simply isn’t supported by this study.
Comment by Tim B — May 23, 2008 @ 12:52 am
I forgot to mention that LDSR means Latter-day Sexual Recovery, which has information, support forums and a (new) blog. The link to my “name” here goes to the blog, but there’s more participation on the support forums thus far.
This is not a paid promotion. I’m just an addict in recovery that has found LDSR very helpful.
Comment by Tim B — May 23, 2008 @ 12:58 am
Point well taken, there is a time and a season for all things. Having said that, knowing why the Titantic sank must have done wonders for future generations of ship builders, navigators and actuaries.
Comment by Peter LLC — May 23, 2008 @ 5:27 am
yes…
The danger of bringing an issue like this out into the open and talking about it is that everyone will have a different opinion of what is/is not OK, based upon their own beliefs and experiences (and like Tim pointed out, sometimes needs and desires).
I think you all are doing a good job being respectful to each other, even this is obviously a very sensitive issue for some. Thank you for that.
Comment by sare — May 23, 2008 @ 7:28 am
Tim B, thanks for that link.
Comment by Stephanie — May 23, 2008 @ 7:59 am
…prophets have condemned [masturbation] as a sin throughout the ages…
I chuckled at that. I challenge anyone to find even one scripture that specifically condemns masturbation. No, Onan doesn’t count: that was about levirate marriage, not masturbation.
Masturbation is not physically necessary. There is already a way by which the male system relieves excessive spermatic fluid quite regularly through the nocturnal emission or wet dream.
I laughed at that also. TMI warning: nocturnal seminal emission only happened rarely (every three months maybe) for me when I was completely abstinent from any activity that lead to ejaculation. Most of that celibate time I was practically high on sex hormones. It was dysfunctionally distracting.
For both sexes, physical or emotional tensions can be released by vigorous activity.
This guidebook was unintentionally humorous for me. For me, vigorous exercise increases my sex drive. This also seems to ignore that most teenagers have sexual tension, not just some vague “physical or emotional” tension.
mami,
Jonathan, however odd this quote is, I have a hard time listening to your take on the prophets teachings when from your site it would appear that you are an atheist, no?
I’ve mentioned that I’m an atheist here as well. You’re right to take that into account. I try to avoid any biases that my beliefs about God’s existence create when I comment here, but it’s impossible for any of us to escape all of our subconscious biases. However, if you only listen to people who believe exactly the way that you do, then there’s not much of a discussion going on. You don’t get much perspective on prophetic counsel when everyone you talk to believes in its infallibility.
We all disregard what prophets have said to some degree, some more than others. We may give lip service to obeying everything as an ideal, but for one reason or another, we all make choices about which statements by LDS prophets to actually follow. Food storage anyone? Birth control? Interracial marriage?
In my post about masturbation that I seem to be promoting a lot these days, I cite historical facts that you can draw your own conclusion on. As djinn mentioned, the LDS church has had an on again, off again relationship with masturbation. I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.
Regarding the speculation that molestation is a trigger for sexual addiction, for what it’s worth, JustaGuy’s story could have been mine except that I was never molested, I confessed to the requisite priesthood authorities much earlier, I have found peace, and a few other minor details. I can’t say for certain, but I think we were both just as addicted. I don’t discount that either of us were or are addicted.
I also know some women who were molested who aren’t much interested in p*rnography or masturbation.
So molestation may contribute, but if we’re looking for some one thing that we can blame, try again. The causes are many and varied.
Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 23, 2008 @ 8:43 am
Tim,
The church does stay out of a bedroom between a married couple. Back when Kimball wrote that.. they didn’t. Heck they took away my cousin’s temple rec for having oral sex with her husband in the early 80s. But now they have learned better.
So long as both parties feel they are not being damaged or harmed, and so long as additional individuals are not in the bedroom.
So if I masturbate during sex with my husband THAT IS A SIN???? What of mutual masturbation and watching eachother? What about phone sex with your spouse when they are on business? I have toys is that a Sin? Geesh.. I could name a hundred different ways a married couple can ‘masturbate’ and still be completely connected.
My point is.. just because a prophet who is not current said it, doesn’t mean it is applicable to me. Brigham Young said all sorts of nonsense I feel free to disregard. A lot of what Kimball said (*especially in that MOF book) I take with a grain of salt.
The neat thing is the LORD knows every heart and circumstance. Prophets do not. They speak to a majority and don’t often bring up the exeptions to the rule. I would never blanket most things as a SIN .. period. (luckily The church now a days doesn’t either). Even abortion they step back from and give for circumstances and say it should be between the person, bishop and the LORD.
Let’s try to open the box a little and realize that sexuality is wonderful and masturbating (whether on the phone with hubby/wife, waiting for them to come home to help with the mood, doing it together, etc etc.) can be a wonderful tool for fulfilling the joy in your sexual marriage.
Comment by Elise — May 23, 2008 @ 8:43 am
TMI warning: nocturnal seminal emission only happened rarely (every three months maybe) for me when I was completely abstinent from any activity that lead to ejaculation.
thank you for pointing that out. i wanted to address it, but, not currently being in possession of a penis, i wasn’t sure it was appropriate.
the ability of one to experience nocturnal emissions is dependent on several factors. if you take a sampling of all the men in your priesthood quorum at church, you’ll undoubtedly find that some men had many wet dreams in adolescence, some had a few, and some had none at all. the differences in sex drive amongst these pubescent boys would most likely be insignificant. one should not expect that waiting for a wet dream is going to resolve sexual tension. (the waiting alone…sheesh.)
Comment by chandelle — May 23, 2008 @ 8:55 am
For me, vigorous exercise increases my sex drive.
i also laughed at that suggestion. exercising is a common suggestion for women struggling with very low sex drive. endorphins seem to promote sexual desire.
Comment by chandelle — May 23, 2008 @ 8:56 am
In the end, it really doesn’t matter if you are addicted or not. It is really this simple:
Do you drink once in a while?
Do you not pay your tithing once in a while?
Do you smoke pot once in a while?
Do you drink coffee once in a while?
Do you view p0rn once in a while?
Do you beat your wife once in a while?
Do you cheat at business once in a while?
Do you beat your kid once in a while?
Did you answer yes to any of these questions? If you did, then you are on the road to not living up to your potential, and if you don’t change your ways will not be making it to the highest level of the C kingdom.
That is where all the stress is generated for active LDS men that view porn.
It may be a natural urge. So may be drinking coffee or being dishonest. That doesn’t make it appropriate for an active worthy priesthood holder. Viewing p0rn or doing the big M once in a while is not a soul crushing sin. Neither is drinking or smoking. But all of them will hamper you spiritually and put a hard limit on your eternal progression.
Comment by ActiveButWithAPast — May 23, 2008 @ 9:36 am
Elise… yes. I agree that the church has stayed out of the bedroom lately, and it’s a good thing. Our temple covenant is to avoid sexuality “except with your husband or wife…” to me, this means, anything WITH your husband or wife. Including masturbation, phone sex, whatever…
Each person will have a different definition of what they are comfortable with in their own marriage. And each person has their own relationship with God to account for. Ultimately isn’t that what it comes down to? What brings you personally closer to God, and what you think distances you from Him, etcetera.
*disclaimer… I realize that agnostics and atheists will not find this particularly relevant. Sorry… speaking from a purely LDS perspectiv here*
Comment by sare — May 23, 2008 @ 9:38 am
I think my comment must be in the filter.
Comment by ActiveWithAPast — May 23, 2008 @ 9:39 am
sorry… that was unclear. I meant, anything with your husband or wife can be good. Still living the covenant, etcetera.
Comment by sare — May 23, 2008 @ 9:40 am
I also know some women who were molested who aren’t much interested in p*rnography or masturbation.
I also know some women who were molested who aren’t much interested in sex at all. Perhaps my point is that molestation can lead to unhealthy sex lives, whether that is an addiction, or an aversion, or some other variation that causes a person to be unhappy.
Comment by Stephanie — May 23, 2008 @ 9:44 am
So molestation may contribute, but if we’re looking for some one thing that we can blame, try again.
Do you really think that’s my intent? Just because you choose to masturbate and look at p*rn without having been molested doesn’t discount the fact that someone else might.
Comment by Stephanie — May 23, 2008 @ 9:47 am
Stephanie,
I wasn’t thinking about you specifically. I got the vague impression that some were trying to find a cause for p*rn addiction in molestation. I may have misunderstood the intent. I added my personal experience that it’s a very complex issue so that we should be cautious when coming up with general rules.
Even if we specifically say “X is addicted to p*rn because X was sexually molested as child”, that’s just too simple to really account for any single person’s sexual history.
Comment by Jonathan Blake — May 23, 2008 @ 10:05 am
Okay, Jonathan. I see what you are saying. I think we are both after the same thing - opening the conversation. I was just trying to suggest that as a means for some people who are struggling with sex addictions, looking into their past to see if there are events such as molestation might be helpful. I am thinking more in terms of healing than just “blaming”.
Comment by Stephanie — May 23, 2008 @ 10:23 am
We deemed that it’s an appropriate time to close comments on this thread.
You can continue the conversation at Sare’s blog.
Comment by mfranti — May 23, 2008 @ 10:40 am