Heartache, Healing, Forgiveness
It’s been weighing heavy on me. The pain and broken hearts. The bewilderment of waking up to find you’ve been rejected, your marriage unmade, it must hurt so much. Regardless of your Prop 8 position, that pain is real, and our Church encouraged it.
After an intense hour of sweaty dancing in the stake center’s gym this morning, the cool-down music began. It was an old play list and I wasn’t really expecting Bono and Mary J. Blige to start singing “One” until the moment the music started.
Our breathing strong and deep, our bodies tired . . .
“You say one love,
one life
It’s one need in the night.”
Mind and body and music and emotion.
I felt it then, that force that binds us all.
“Did I disappoint you?
Leave a bad taste in you mouth?”
And I started to cry.
Dancing.
In the building where I worship.
“We’re One,
but we’re not the same.”
I love and respect these women, our strong sweaty limbs in sync as we celebrate and strengthen our bodies and spirits.
“We get to carry each other,
carry each other.”
And I can not stop crying as I think of these dancers of my heart, focusing their time and money and emotion and deep-rooted belief into something that hurts so much.
“Have you come here for forgiveness?
Have you come to raise the dead?
Have you come here to play Jesus?
To the lepers in your head.”
My marriage was not taken,
but my heart breaks and breaks and breaks.
“We’re one, but we’re not the same
Well we,
hurt each other
Then we do it again.”
We hurt each other.
These dancers and I.
Can I forgive them?
Can they forgive me?
“You say
Love is a temple
Love is a higher law”
it seems too much
too hard
to love this church
these dancers
part of me
but not
tear at my heart
“One love
One blood
One life
You got to do what you should”
If I give in to
anger
if I eat all the heartache
If I
abandon them
the dancers
the church
will it help
me
or them
or unmade marriages
“One life
With each other
Sisters and my
Brothers”
and i cry
I don’t know
I don’t know
“One life
But we’re not the same
We get to
Carry each other
Carry each other
One”
The last time I remember feeling this way was when I was a kid, on the playground, trying to explain to a black classmate not just why my church wouldnt ordain blacks, but why we wouldnt let them be married in our temples. Especially when we claimed that sealing families was the most important thing we do in this life.
I was so embarassed to be LDS. I knew what we were doing was wrong. There was no explanation that made sense even to another member, let alone someone who was not a member.
I’ve spent the last few hours talking to friends and colleagues who want to know why we did the terrible things we just did. I don’t have any explanation for them. I know all the Church’s slogans and sound bites, and I know they are all b*llsh*t. They aren’t convincing to me, let alone anyone else. And I’m embarassed to be LDS, just like it was 1974 all over again.
Comment by obi-wan — November 5, 2008 @ 2:04 pm
obi-wan
Are you embarrassed to be friends with black people too?
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
I get this post. It is not just about song lyrics. To me, it is about having been *one* with someone (in this case, the church), and now, not. And dancing the delicate dance of being one with the church and feeling hurt by it. And forgiving the church for being the instrument of hurt, when they should be the instrument of comfort.
This post is not saying that the church alone killed gay marriage. It is not saying that the church is the only boogeyman. It is saying that the church played a part in causing pain and hurt to innocent people.
I dance this dance every time I go to church and/or interact with its members. They just don’t get how very hurtful they are, not just to nonmembers, but to people in the church.
I am embarrassed to be LDS. I know I will not stop being LDS, nor will I stop raising my kids to be LDS, but this dance *hurts*.
Comment by janescott — November 5, 2008 @ 2:13 pm
That was beautifully written. I was one that voted yes on 102 in Arizona and I just want you to know that I didn’t do it lightly or thoughtlessly. I’m sorry your heart is breaking and I’m sorry for those that think it was about hate.
Comment by Randa — November 5, 2008 @ 2:15 pm
This is the scripture that has kept running through my brain. I remember that as a youth my friend (who struggled a lot with her family) found great strength in it.
Matthew 10
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Following Christ (and his appointed leaders on earth) is not an easy thing. I think we’ve had it way too easy for too long. I hope you find a way to heal. Everything leading up to the election has been only the beginning. I see it in the way my co-workers look at me and interact with me today.
Comment by Diana — November 5, 2008 @ 2:21 pm
Lisa, you wrote this beautifully, and I totally got it. I read it just the way janesccott did. You did a wonderful job of opening up and sharing your feelings. Not all of us can do it so eloquently.
Comment by KristieS — November 5, 2008 @ 2:22 pm
I am aware that my opinion on Prop 8 and my opinion on historical Mormon polygamy are very different from most who write or comment here. Nevertheless, Lisa’s concerns for the feelings (lives, futures, happiness) of those directly affected by Prop 8 is very similar to my feelings for the many Mormon wives and mothers who woke up in 1890 to learn about the Manifesto. It must be worse for the Prop 8 couples, because nothing in the Manifesto required any Mormon man to repudiate a plural family, the way Prop 8 does for those it affects. Despite that intention of continued marriage and support on the part of the church in 1890, many men did reject and abandon their “extra” wives, and over the following generation those faithful women lived to hear prominent figures in their church — never mind the unanimous agreement outside the church — claim that their marriages never should have occurred and their children never born. Those wonderful women have been rightly described as Hagar, sent out into the wilderness.
No, I don’t recognize what to me are false marriages, the legal or societal same-sex unions that, in my view, should never have been formed in the first place. But I still can regret the pain and rejection of those affected by the campaign and apparent outcome of the election.
There. There’s enough in that for everybody, of every belief, to attack me. But please recognize that I recognize the pain Lisa describes, and I’m sorry for it.
Comment by Ardis E. Parshall — November 5, 2008 @ 2:24 pm
Lisa, that was beautiful. I thought it was very poignant how you wove your feelings with the lyrics of the song.
I hadn’t heard whether or not Prop 8 had passed and so I came home after preschool and looked it up on the internet. I can’t explain the feeling I felt–kind of empty and cold, seeing that it had passed.
The weird thing to me is that probably 80-90 percent of my friends are ecstatic right now over their victory. That is a very strange disconnection for me–I feel I am a pretty active member of the Church, but I know on this issue, I am so far, far away from most people who I attend Church with. And most of them are most likely JOYFUL about this, I feel sad.
I have had a very hard time reconciling my feelings over this. It’s hard to explain. I have faith in the leaders of the Church but this measure still feels to me to be filled with hate, misunderstanding, and prejudice. I, like Lisa, am not sure how to bridge that gap.
Thanks for sharing your feelings on this, Lisa.
Comment by ErinG — November 5, 2008 @ 2:32 pm
I feel you, Lisa. I am deciding my ‘marriage’ to God is more important than my ‘marriage’ to The Church. It hurts. Will my relationship with my children suffer because their childhood experiences will be different from mine, having gone through all the programs? Am I striping them of a heritage of strength, dedication, conviction, even if I myself no longer carry the cause? What do I replace my heritage with? How do I make friends outside, when I am and will always be peculiar? I will not wait for the hierarchy to change and be untrue to myself in the meantime. . I don’t believe the populace of the church can change anything or is even listened to, for that matter. i.e. Packers reaction that they simply don’t listen to the naysayers in reference to Julie Beck’s Oct. conference talk. I think the presidency and quorum decide and we follow. I can’t wait that long; I need to live my conscience. Right or wrong, I’ll be responsible.
Prop 8 was just the last of a very long list of issues. It’s like cutting out a piece of me but it brings me more peace than living with it.
Comment by asister — November 5, 2008 @ 2:32 pm
Mami:
What are you talking about?? Did you forget to take your meds??
The African-Americans (and other non-LDS) who voted for Prop. 8 don’t claim to be God’s kingdom on earth. They don’t have leaders who claim the authority to speak for God and use it to manipulate whole congregations into supporting their pet political position. They didn’t put up half the money to fund lying, deceptive ads intended to scare people into voting for a farce. They didn’t tell me that I have a covenant obligation to campaign for a bad piece of social policy. I don’t share any covenants with them. I don’t care how they voted. THEY ARE NOT MY PROBLEM.
Comment by obi-wan — November 5, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
Beautifully written. Janesccott’s interpretation and feelings mirror mine a great deal.
I am dreading the next few encounters with a few of my close homosexual friends - 2 of which are in long term, monogamous, healthy, loving, committed relationships which they call marriages. How can I even begin to acknowledge the immense hurt that exists in their lives as again they are told their relationships are not as they live them? Particularly when that hurt was caused in some part by something very important to me - the church. It is very hard to balance the two.
Comment by Cole — November 5, 2008 @ 2:39 pm
Obi-Wan–
The African-American churches were part of the coalition, sent letters to their members, and told them how to vote on prop 8 from the pulpit. So did the Catholics, and the Bapists, and lots of other churhches.
I too feel for the people who are hurt, but I still think passing yes was the right thing to do.
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 2:45 pm
I got home from work at 1 a.m. last night and was so anxious to see if 8 passed. I checked out MSN and just stared at my computer with all of these strange feelings roiling around inside me. I watched the video link from FMH about the Mormon missionaries tearing up marriage licenses. And I was so sad. I crawled into bed with my husband and he sleepliy talked about the election results with me and I started to cry for so many people I don’t know. I was disappointed, and confused, and I’ve been moping around all day with a feeling of melancholy. It almost feels like I am grieving. It is so strange because I am so far removed from this issue, being in Utah in the mainstream of the church and knowing only a few past aquaintances who are gay. And yet it is weighing heavily on my heart today.
And then I logged onto FMH and read this post that is not about being gay or being married or the church’s actions and position, but about a feeling only. So, thank you for this post, for letting me know I am not alone in this strange, confusing melancholy today.
What keeps going through my head over and over and over and over is our own eleventh article of faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping almighty God according the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let the worship how, where, or what they may. And allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.
Can someone explain to me how the church, as an entity, supporting 8 allows gay people this privilege? I am not being facetious; I’m really troubled by this.
Comment by Misty — November 5, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
I am one of the people who does feel JOYFUL about this. Do I feel joyful that people are hurting–no. I feel joyful that the majority (albeit small majority) of Californians understand the importance of marriage between one man and one woman–especially to the children who come from that union.
This brought me back to a few years ago when I remember voting on Prop 22. Back then it passed with about 60 percent yeses. I can’t believe that the world has deteriorated so much that it’s now barely passing, but I’m grateful. I’m so grateful that it did pass. I was talking with my mom earlier and she was telling me how much this prop 8 campaign has strengthened her marriage. She now knows, when the prophet says speaks, my dad or brother or whoever else in my family will listen and obey.
I do think it’s awful for people who have been married in the time between–but that should have never happened. The CA voters had spoken before and judges chose to ignore what the CALIFORNIAS wanted. Annoying and they are the ones at fault–not the church and not the Californians who are upholding the values of marriage and family.
Comment by anon — November 5, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
Barack Obama himself had more to do with Prop 8 passing than any other single entity.
Lot’s of people are claiming this, but it isn’t true, not even close. Just do the math.
Remember, only about 6% of Californians are black. The extra black turnout amounts to less than 2% of the total California voters. Even if every single one of those people voted for prop 8, that wasn’t enough to swing the election; it would have passed even if they had all stayed home. Plus, many of these “new” black voters were younger people, who were probably less friendly to prop 8 than the black voter population generally. Plus, Obama also brought out many non-black voters who tended to be younger and more liberal than the average voter.
Prop 8 would clearly have passed without Obama on the ballot, and my guess is the margin would have been even larger.
Comment by kodos — November 5, 2008 @ 2:47 pm
Thank you, Lisa
I was so happy last night when O won. It is still with me this morning, but it is overshadowed by this prop 8/102 thing. I just feel so sad. I had decided last week that I would be leaving the church, prop 8 and 102 the proverbial “last straw”. I am going in on sunday to break it to my bishop. It is something I feel like I have to do to make my concience clear. Keep doing these wonderful posts…they have bolstered me up a lot lately. Thanks!
Comment by nicole — November 5, 2008 @ 2:49 pm
anon, you are a chicken shit.
and, i will be JOYOUS when the supreme court overturns your vote.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 2:51 pm
I too am filled with sadness about this issue. The dissonance that I experience regarding my membership in this church and several issues of conscience (such as this one) IS painful. I am puzzled at how intelligent and otherwise caring people just don’t seem to see the bigotry in denying one specific group legitimacy. And is it hypocricy to remain a member of an organization that actively campaigns for things that I strongly disagree with? It is heart-wrenching for me. I appreciate what Lisa is communicating here. It helps me know that I am not alone.
Comment by Jenny — November 5, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
mfranti–
You will now be quoted in FMH history as disobeying your own comment policy–not that it applies to you.
So much for forgiveness and healing.
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 2:57 pm
Ardis, I find your comparison apt. It is, in fact, the one which comes inescapably to my mind–as well as Short Creek. The American populace (me included) generally feels repulsed by polygamy and by the practice of plural marriage as instituted by the FLDS. I even think the government needs to keep an eye on their “weird” “Immoral” “pick the nasty adjective of your choice” marriage practices for the general public good, as well as for the good of those involved in the marriages themselves. AND YET. And yet, despite this, despite understanding the good intents of those who broke up my ancestor’s marriages after the manifesto, those well-intentioned people who may have been right also broke hearts. It may have been for the public good and God may have been on the American government’s side, I really don’t know. I do know the pain was real. I do know that anyone who callously dismissed that pain as “merely the result of sin” missed a significant portion of the point–that family is defined differently by different communities and that when the majority rules, the minority feels pain. And the majority–even IN enacting their moral rules by law–ought to recognize that something tragic in that pain, ought to realize that their definition of family even if it is the right one cannot cancel out the true familial love in families of which they do not approve and which they simply do not understand.
I don’t live in California and thus avoided the inevitable spiritual breakdown I’d have had staring at Proposition 8 (which, for the record, I would’ve voted against). I hope and simply have to believe that those Mormons who voted for it did so with at least a bit of trepidation mitigating their sense of righteousness, for if there’s one thing our own religious marital history should have taught us, it’s some empathy for nontraditional families. I have to hope that the church leaders (Elder Jensen comes to mind–such a kind soul) feel terrible about the pain Prop 8 causes, even if they believe in its principle.
I remember being a confused high school student, asking my parents how on earth they’d explained the priesthood ban to people when it was in effect. I guess now I have some empathy for my folks’ position.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
If I had known this thread was here, I would have posted my comment in it instead of in the other one where it will likely fall into off-topic purgatory. So I cut and paste instead:
I am devastated. There aren’t words big enough to describe what I’m feeling over this. Gut-wrenching, heart-breaking, GRIEF and DEVASTATION. I’m not a Californian and couldn’t vote against Prop 8, and I am beyond dismayed at this ugly turn of events and the ramifications to thousands upon thousands of American couples and families.
I’m so sorry. 
We WILL fix what has been destroyed. (”Yes We Can!”)
This harshes my Obama buzz in the worst possible way.
Someone please tell me how I can maintain any respect for (or affiliation with) the LDS church after this. I am sick about it.
Comment by Lady — November 5, 2008 @ 3:01 pm
Exactly!
Comment by ErinG — November 5, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
you know, i don’t care. i really don’t care what you think of me. we open this post for those to have a place to express their sorrow and other people come along and shit on it.
and then i (we are )am expected to sit and take it. just like I’ve (we) done all along in the the name of fairness.
[insert expletives here]
I’m not going to be nice on this. I’m tired of people using god as a reason to be mean and hateful.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 3:04 pm
I think comment #7 hits it on the head. Pain occurs all the time in (and out of) the church because of sin and incompliance with church teachings.
I don’t know what it is about gay marriage that makes it seem like exclusively a civil rights issue rather than an issue of whether or not we are in favor of people keeping the commandments (as Elder Oaks(?) called it: the teaching function of the law). Gay marriage goes a long way to normalizing homosexuality, and I don’t want that for my children.
Perhaps it is that gay marriage (as opposed to promiscuous homosexuality) is an expression of love and commitment, and it is hard for us to see love as a bad thing.
I was in a homosexual relationship at BYU 13 years ago. I was in love; I still feel reminiscent/nostalgic sometimes over that time in my life. The heady feelings of first falling in love are unlike anything else on earth.
At the time I wondered — how could Heavenly Father not want me to feel love? To not love and know another person as I was loved and known?
But, — being in love does not make sin okay. My repentance process was painful and hard. My parents, very conservative, sheltering, SURPRISED parents, were amazing. I know they would vote against Prop 8 or 102 or whatever, but they would do so remembering the pain I went through, and they went through, and also the joy that we all feel now that I am married (happily) to a wonderful man and the mother of three (often wonderful) children.
If I had not felt the pain (Godly sorrow) of repentance, perhaps I would now be feeling the pain of not being able to marry my first love. Either way, pain exists where there is sin. Especially if there is love there also.
If gay marriage had been legal at the time I was exploring my sexuality for the first time (see Kathryn Soper’s recent post on T&S and my comment there), I might have had a much harder time thinking of my love as not justifying my sin.
Comment by Jane — November 5, 2008 @ 3:04 pm
Wow, a lot of mean comments happened while I was writing mine.
Please delete my comment (#33). I meant it sincerely, and now I no longer wish to expose myself in such a forum.
Comment by Jane — November 5, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
Woah mfranti!
Comment by Roxanna — November 5, 2008 @ 3:07 pm
Mami, you either can’t read, are incredibly dense, or really do need to check your prescription.
I told you: those aren’t my people. I don’t have to deal with them every week. I don’t care what they did. Whether they lived up to their own claims of moral superiority isn’t my problem.
Trying to ever again take seriously anything Elder Cook or Elder Ballard say, when I watched them blatantly lie over the pulpit to every member in California — that is what I have to deal with.
Comment by obi-wan — November 5, 2008 @ 3:09 pm
While I feel that the Court was wrong and that the People were right, I do not believe that the U.S. 5th Amendment allows anyone to nullify your status. Now that the P8 election is past, I’d be happy to make common ground with you against anyone that would go after you specifically. I’ll be glad to raise my voice on behalf of you and other Californian same sex couples who obtained a marriage liscence during this confusing time.
YOU and YOURS are NOT a threat to the idea of marriage. Indeed your desire for that paper and honors the idea of marriage, and I think you are to be commended for aspiring to the ideals of monogamy and fidelity. For me and other moderates, Prop-8 was never about who is worthy of marriage, but rather about what marriage means. I’ve often said that if we could give couples with you the status you seek, without changing the basic idea that marriage means the lifelong union of man and woman, and that children benefit particularly from having a stable mother and father in the home, that I’d take that solution in a heartbeat. Under these strange circumstances, I believe and hope that this is what’s going to happen in California for you. Please keep me posted, and you are in my prayers.
Comment by Christian — November 5, 2008 @ 3:10 pm
Thanks for the thoughts Lisa. I am saddened for the people who will lose their marital status. I just don’t know what to think about all of this.
Comment by Roxanna — November 5, 2008 @ 3:12 pm
Constitutions are there to keep the majority from persecuting the minority. Do you think for a minute that the US population would have voted to overturn segregation? No, it was those 9 ‘activist’ justices who said ‘NO’. And the California justices did the same — their job is to interpret the constitution and to ignore the will of the CALIFORNIANS who wanted to viotate that constitution.
Because we live in a secular society, and I no more want to force my neighbors to live under church law than I would want some of my neighbors to force me into Sharia.
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 3:12 pm
Your writing totally resonated with me Lisa. My joy over Obama winning is tinged with sorrow for Prop 8 passing. I don’t get it, not at all.
Comment by Jo — November 5, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
Jane, I think people will respect your narrative. I imagine that while many of us have a hard time seeing committed gay unions as sinful, those who do would still benefit from knowing that they contain love. Part of the anguish I find on the issue is the insistence of so many people I know, the absolute insistence, that gay couples do not love each other. I have no problem with their belief that sexual engagement outside heterosexual marriage is sinful (though I tustle with the degree to which legislating sin/morality is OK). I do have a problem with them negating love. Your story shows a complex view, one which simultaneously embraces the church’s position while also refusing to cancel out the difficulty of it. I find that sort of thing quite useful. I have to say, I’d respect your vote far more than that of some of the people I’ve heard speak elsewhere–the ones who simply don’t believe gay love can exist.
Please reconsider having us delete your comment?
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
I have been on the “no on 8″ side of the fence since the beginning, but I decided to vote “yes” on it last night because I was convinced that if the measure passed, the Supreme Court was going to have to take up the issue again since (in my not-so-legally-trained opinion) the addition of the words of Prop 8 to the constitution sets up a great big contradiction in the law.
I could be wrong, and the Supreme Court will manage to find a way to leave the constitution amended and still not find a conflict between Prop 8 and the “equal protection” clause, but I tend to doubt it. We’ll just have to wait and see.
Comment by Mark N. — November 5, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
Jane –
While I appreciate your post, it has little or nothing to do with the question of Prop. 8. You made covenants to live a certain standard, because of your belief. You broke your covenant, then repented. Good for you. That is not the case for the people on whom we imposed Prop. 8; they don’t believe they need to live our way, and they haven’t promised the Lord to do so.
Comment by obi-wan — November 5, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
Easy, the 11th Article of Faith deals with religious freedom, not gay marriage.
Comment by sam — November 5, 2008 @ 3:18 pm
Mark N.
Marriage laws are state issues and the Supreme Court has and probably will refuse to hear the cases.
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 3:19 pm
thank you for your post.
this isn’t meant to be a plug, but i wrote about this very thing on my blog this morning. http://loydo38.blogspot.com/2008/11/seeking-forgiveness.html
Comment by the narrator — November 5, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
I am in agony over the vote. Heartbroken that the LDS church encouraged it’s members to spend so much money on this. I would have less of an issue if the members had just done it themself.
I have been struggling with the church for quite sometime. Prop 8 has made me decide to end my membership. I didn’t want to do that. However, I have realized that I cannot affiliate with the church after this. It is the final straw with my leaving my name on the rolls of the church.
Comment by Tanya Sue — November 5, 2008 @ 3:22 pm
New to FMH here so I’m just gonna jump on in. Nicole, I feel sad for you that you feel you must leave the church over this. I don’t attempt to make you change your mind. But it is important for all of us to note that the church is not perfect. The Lord’s gospel is carried out by imperfect people - even his prophets. I do not say that to imply that the First Presidency was wrong in their decision to take a stance. But I do think that many members have carried out that request with hate in their hearts. And that is neither Christian nor righteous.
It is sometimes difficult for me to reconcile my personal beliefs with my world view. But I know that I have a testimony of the prophet, The Book of Mormon, the temple, and eternal families. I know the Lord understands our struggles far better than we can understand one another’s.
This life does not always seem just or fair. I think it is unfair that my best friend cannot bear children while I can. I think it is unfair that my boss’s daughter suffers from down syndrome while my daughter is perfectly healthy. I think it is unfair that homosexuals are given such a difficult burden to bear while I have never had to endure that kind of struggle. LIfe isn’t fair - but Christ is. He is the perfect judge. His gospel is perfect - the members of his church are not.
Comment by LB — November 5, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
I think that if those who wrote our state (and federal) consitutions were aware of where things would lead hundreds of years later, this clarification would have been in the original constitutions.
Comment by Diana — November 5, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
For what it’s worth, Jane, I was touched by your post and by your honesty and your viewpoint. Thanks for sharing.
Comment by Joanne — November 5, 2008 @ 3:24 pm
After reading the first few comments, I’m skipping the rest.
Lisa, thank you for such a beautifully written expression of your thoughts and feelings. Even though I agree with Prop 8 (stop yelling at me, I don’t even live in California), that doesn’t mean that I am incapable of feeling regret about the hurt and pain it has caused others.
Comment by that1girl — November 5, 2008 @ 3:24 pm
I have no idea what you mean here.
I will venture a guess and say: maybe the founders were wise enough to just put a structure in place for us to use i.e. let future generations find their own interpretations and not try to micro-manage us from the grave.
but this is a thread jack…….
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 3:29 pm
Well, I’m very happy if Christian is right (and hey, I’m not a lawyer) and nobody will lose their previously-granted marital status. That’s excellent news, at least.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
..a bright spot indeed.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 3:37 pm
the Supreme Court has and probably will refuse to hear the cases.
I’m referring to the California Supreme Court, not the feds.
Comment by Mark N. — November 5, 2008 @ 3:39 pm
Folks can hit me over the head all they want with scripture and prophet quotes and it still won’t do a thing about the pain I feel now and the tears I will shed on Saturday when I see my gay running buddy and his partner, who are the most wonderful souls I’ve ever encountered.
Comment by newbie — November 5, 2008 @ 3:40 pm
i loved this post, lisa. i get it and i share your pain.
Comment by megan — November 5, 2008 @ 3:42 pm
Lisa, I quite appreciate the question your posts beg: regardless of who is right and who is wrong, how do we learn to forgive one another in the face of terrible pain?
Pope Paul VI’s quotation comes to mind “if you want peace, work for justice.” In light of groups who define “justice” so differently, I don’t know if peace and total forgiveness is possible. If Prop 8 had lost, I know many Mormons who’d be angrily storming about railing about the lack of “justice” as well. I’m pretty sure it’s the people willing to walk out into no-man’s land who wind up doing the peacemaking . . . but only after they’ve been thoroughly shot at by both sides. Ugh.
Nonetheless, I hope we find a way. Because, after all, the demarcations are not all that solid–plenty of gay Mormons exist, and plenty of Mormon mamas and papas and brothers and sisters who want to follow the prophet also do not want to see their children’s or sibling’s relationships scorned or hatred against them bolstered. We start by talking. Even when talking turns to yelling, at least it’s communication.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
Follow-up to those (mami? if I’m reading you right?) who did vote or would’ve voted for Prop 8 if given the chance: how will you approach your gay loved ones and mend the hurt? For those whose families were targeted: how will you approach those who voted for the proposition? How can we act when we are approaching a person rather than a political power?
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 3:47 pm
#60
I sent a gay friend an appolgy. He’s an older man and has a long perspective about this whole thing. Here’s what he said:
Such graciousness on his part. Of course he remembers how things were 40 years ago. He’s seen the progress. He knows he will get there, even when it’s 2 steps forward and one step back. And he’s willing to continue our friendship in spite of the hurt ‘my’ people have done to ‘his.’
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 3:48 pm
The original post was about healing and understanding, was it not? What was that about assuming good intent on the part of the opposition? Mfranti, the most hateful comments on this thread are yours. Others may be misinformed, maybe even tactless and somewhat cold in their treatment of real life issues, but I would chalk this up to ignorance more than outright hate. Your attacking of opposing opinion does nothing to further your cause, and especially does not further the cause of peace. Please reconsider your behavior.
obi-wan,
your comments also have an undeniable taint of bitterness and your responses also serve to chisel away at the chasm that already lies before us as citizens and church members. Are you on the thread to attack those who see the issue differently or discuss intelligently? Angry responses will not help your cause. If you truly wish to be understood then try to understand.
For those who have a hard time understanding the church’s stance, myself included, do you wish to understand or only complain? A desire to understand doesn’t generally look like most of the comments here. The general sentiment seems to only leave room for the church to be dead wrong. That is a possibility. However, if you see that as the only possibility then you are not seeking to understand, only to be understood. That is fine if that is where people are, but don’t falsely couch your displeasure as an attempt to truly understand. It is especially easy to see through when responses given to clarify the opposing side are dismissed as hateful or otherwise attacked.
For those who gladly supported prop 8, please take a moment to consider the REAL people with lives, feelings, hopes, and heartaches every bit as valid as your own. Maybe voting yes on prop 8 was right. I honestly cannot make sense of it right now. But whatever the moral implications, let us not be cavalier when discussing something that so intimately affects so many. It is easy to be glib when we are on the winning side and feel we have God standing by us. It is better to remember that the same power (government, not God) that sometimes sides with us can also be against us and we should not be casual in the power we give our government.
Lisa,
To you I would say, there is always a way to peace, even in the midst of the storm. If you desire to somehow make peace with the church, it is possible. We don’t have to see all the pieces or know the right answers to have peace. It doesn’t necessarily mean agreeing with the church. It means that in any moment there is a way to peace if we choose it. It means being able to do exactly what it is you’re wondering if you can do.
Think of it like a marriage. Neither of you is perfect, nor will you be for eons to come, but if peace were not a possibility in the midst of the imperfections then marriage would be a living hell. For many it is simply because they have not learned this principle. Things don’t have to go our way in order for us to have peace. It is a choice in every moment, every circumstance, every relationship. Not that the circumstance will change, but that our hearts will be opened up to greater understanding.
It is the same with this issue. I know this may sound simplistic, but it is truth. If you desire to make peace with the church, you can. All the answers may not come, but if your true desire is to remain in the church and be at peace with it, that is a very real possibility, but you must ask for it and strive for it. If, on the other hand, your feeling is that you can be at peace with the church only when it changes, you will never find the peace you seek. The choice is yours, mine, all of ours. The deciding factor lies in what we desire most: peace or being right.
I know I’m opening myself up to all sorts of attacks right now. So be it. Nothing I said was meant as an attack and I hope it will not be received as such.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 3:48 pm
obi-wan and others - I’m glad you have the guts to say what I feel. I’m so embarrased by the misguided efforts of this “crusade” and ashamed of how church leadership has behaved. There was nothing about this campaign that demonstrated Christlike love - it was just political manoevring and homophobic fearmongering. I think I’m turning in my temple recommend over this one.
Comment by Meredith C — November 5, 2008 @ 3:50 pm
You know, that’s not really what this post is about. In fact NOT AT ALL. But please do go back and actually talk about healing and forgiveness.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 3:56 pm
Janet,
My gay loved ones knew about my stance (I did vote yes on 8 ) long before the election was over. Our conversation last night went like this,
Loved one, “I think you’ll regret it in 40 years, and see it as bigoted.”
Me, “I don’t think so. I already see that side of it.”
We both laugh, knowing we are both stern on our positions.
Loved one, “Well, you voted for Barack so I forgive you.”
Me, “So I bet your kicking yourself you didn’t register to vote here.”
Loved one, “Yep, yep.”
More laughter, and then discussion on why in the world people in our family voted for Bob Barr, and when we would be getting together again. That was pretty much it.
For us, there isn’t much to reconcile. We love each other, uncoditionally.
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 4:01 pm
Suzanne If you believe all that, I’m sad for you
Comment by nicole — November 5, 2008 @ 4:06 pm
That should say they knew abput my stance (I did vote yes on 8 ) long before the elcetion was over.
And we love each other unconditionally, not uncodtionally
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 4:06 pm
mami, don’t you love how it’s physically impossible to follow an “8″ with a paran without making a fonzie? It tried to manipulate the code last week, but failed.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:09 pm
And I’m glad your conversation went so well. I don’t even live in CA and either would’ve not voted at all on 8 or against it, but I’m still afraid some of my friends want to kick my hiney. Not that don’t love me, understand, just that they don’t get how I can be Mormon. Including, oh, a sister or two. OUCH.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:10 pm
Suzanne,
A friend of mine recently got married in Costa Rica and had to be married civilly before being married in the temple. It wasn’t because of gay rights. It’s common the world over. Not really horrifying and doesn’t make the temple marriage less valid.
Like it or not, homosexual lifestyles will eventually be addressed in schools no matter what. As with any sexual or social curriculum, parents should take an active role in deciding what is discussed and at what ages.
Married couples in student housing? This would be different than two gay roommates how?
My point is, many of the reasons given to strike fear simply do not for most people.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
Meredith C– no! don’t turn in the recommend! I understand how you feel, but no! In the temple, sitting in the celestial room, it’s just you and God. That’s where I’m going to freak out/converse with God regarding the matter. It would be lovely to think others are there doing the same.
I’m just hoping it never gets to the point where those of us who don’t see why gay marriage is such a big deal are asked to turn them in.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:15 pm
#63 Suzanne, those are the lies the church has been spreading that Obi-wan and others mentioned waaay back in this thread.
The church lying to help prop 8 pass has made this whole thing almost past bearing……
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 4:15 pm
janet,
that wasn’t me.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
oh, you fixed it.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 4:17 pm
sol–you’re speedy! I, obviously, require a nap if my basic reading comprehension of *names* is at risk
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:19 pm
i do find the exuberant celebrations for the passing of Prop 8 sad. It’s like when we see people celebrate over an execution. Whether you support the death penalty or not it is no time to celebrate.
I am coping by just trying not to think about it. That is how I cope with much in the LDS church these days.
But the comment in#60 helps. Some things are a long struggle. If I was in complete charge I am not sure how I would ultimately solve this situation.
Comment by CYCINGRED — November 5, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
It’s OK Suzanne — we’re sad for you too. Anyone who thinks enshrining religious doctrine into law (for everyone!!!! believers or not) doesn’t understand history or the very changed nature of our country.
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
sol, i will admit that my tone was a bit uncharitable. i apologize to you and others.
i am deeply hurt by this ruling but I am more hurt that my church (and fellow saints) used its might and dollars to help make this happen. i don’t know how to express to those that say that are happy about the outcome, on this particular thread, that it really sucks to have it rubbed in my face.
and it’s not my style to use lots of words and pretty language to call BS. Too many of us feel like we have to play nice all the time when today, we just don’t want to.
again, sorry to all.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
And sol, I found your comment quite astute.
Others have found peace in seemingly irreconcilable times–Margaret Young, Darius Grey, Eugene England, and the list goes on. I’m working on it, and have to believe it’s possible. Part of that entails accepting that I can be wrong–that all my prayers and agony simply haven’t given me enough understanding. But to quote a book I rather like, “we can love completely even in the absence of complete understanding.” I just haven’t figured out how yet.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
Or for that matter, our history as a minority and persecuted religion…….
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
Suzanne,
That is not the point of this thread. Please be kind. Pity is different than empathy. No one is asking for pity.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 4:26 pm
mfranti,
if peace and understanding are the goal, then today of all days is the day to play nice. Consider that others are not trying to rub your face in something that has caused you pain. Consider they are simply expressing a different side. Many of them truly feel they are doing something God requires. Misguided as that may or may not be, if you want others to understand you, then seek to understand why they feel the way they do and try to assign good intent instead of maliciousness. If they are simply ignorant, then why rail against them? What good will it do?
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
Lisa, this post is beautiful and represents the feelings I have at many a church activity. I love the people and the sisterhood I feel there, but I occassionaly feel like the relationshipI have with HF leads me in different directions than that which is preached from the pulpit. It’s a struggle and I don’t know how to help you through it.
Mfranti, I don’t know what to say except that I agree that if people want to post yucky mean stuff here they ought to have the guts to sign their “name.”.
Jane, thanks for sharing your story. Very brave, and I understand your point of view even though I disagree with it.
Comment by Eris — November 5, 2008 @ 4:36 pm
Suzanne: what if the spirit is telling you this is WRONG? What if it is telling you to follow the dictates of the New Testament and be compassionate and you feel Prop 8 was wrong? Are we all damned because we have a different spiritual experience than you?
Comment by Eris — November 5, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
I’m not LDS anymore, so maybe my perspective is unwanted. But I went to bed crying last night. The blow from the passing of Prop. 8 affected me more than Obama’s win. (I was somewhat ambivalent-to-positive about Obama, and I’m happy he won, but I thought about Prop. 8 a lot more.) I woke up this morning and felt better, more at peace. I thought of all of the wonderful people here and elsewhere who were courageous and independent in their fight against Prop. 8 and I thought, We’ll get there. For sure, we’ll get there. Then I came and read this post, and I loved it, and I was all set to give a hopeful response…but then, like an idiot, I read the comments, and then I just started crying again. I couldn’t help it. I’m not the sort of person who cries all over the place all the time, either.
My son was sitting on the bed taking apart his rocking horse with a screwdriver and he was very alarmed. He shouted, “WHAT’S WRONG MAMA?” I said, “I’m just sad, honey. We live in such an ugly world. Something awful happened last night to our gay brothers and sisters. Papa and I really want them to have the same rights as we do, but we’re outnumbered. And I’m so sad that we have to raise you in a time such as this. I wish it could be better for you.” And then I cried some more. He came over and climbed into my lap and wrapped his arms around me. He turned my face to his (like I do when he’s crying), and said, “Don’t be sad, Mama. I’ll make you so happy. I’ll make the world ALLLLLLL better.” I clutched him to me and said, “I know.” And then I sobbed. There’s something special about your 3-year-old doing the holding sometimes.
As for forgiveness, it’ll be slow in coming. I have to be honest about that. Not because of the people I know in my everyday life, but because of a handful of choice individuals who have revealed the true heart of this anti-movement. I think I could have lived peacefully with my anti-gay neighbors if I hadn’t had this special glimpse into the stripped-down version of that belief system. This whole experience has conjured, for me, the first truly black feelings about this church. It’s hard for me to spend time with even my progressive LDS friends, because I glance sidelong at them now and my heart curdles to think of them continuing to support this system. Since most of my friends are progressive LDS, that’s pretty sad for me.
Do with this what you will; I’m tossing myself willingly to the wolves in gratitude that I have this one place where I can express my true feelings. I can’t express the depth of my horror and sorrow at the result of these long weeks of studying and discussing. I feel so sad that my children have to grow up in the world that you, Prop. 8 supporters, have so carefully and expensively arranged for them.
Comment by Chandelle — November 5, 2008 @ 4:39 pm
Eris,
what about anon’s comment was hateful? Tactless in parts, yes. Ignorant, somewhat. But outright hateful? That is too far. Don’t confuse opposition with hate.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 4:39 pm
Oh dear, my comment should probably be deleted because it wasn’t very kind, peaceful or charitable. I’m working on that, I really am, but for right now, I just don’t have anything but sadness.
Comment by Chandelle — November 5, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
Chandelle, your little guy is such a sweetheart. Don’t you love the empathy of tots? Mine is alseep and I think I shall join him
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
When my gay coworker came into work this morning, she was upside by the legislation that had passed in California and in Florida (her home state).
I said I was sorry.
Neither of us mentioned the fact that I have family who donated both time and money, at the request of church leaders, to help pass Prop 8.
She’s still gay. I’m still Mormon.
We’re still friends.
But, damn, there’s an elephant in the space in between our desks!
Comment by Joanne — November 5, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
this could be its own post. one that would exceed space limits.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 4:43 pm
Suzanne– once more, you’re not noticing the topic (and this is your last warning, btw). The topic is finding peace and forgiveness, regardless of position. It is not telling others they are unrighteous. If you want to share further how you came to a position of peace regarding Position 8, others here (myself included) might find such a narrative both welcome and potentially useful in navigating our own tough journeys. If you simply want to insult others as you erroneously accuse the rest of us of wanting to do, you are welcome to stick to your promise not to return. Many people felt torn about Prop 8 because they believe in prophetic power but haven’t felt a personal confirmation, indeed may have felt the opposite, in regards to this matter. Engage that struggle. It’s a lot harder and less convenient than name-calling.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
That statement is simply preposterous.
Comment by Guy Murray — November 5, 2008 @ 4:44 pm
mfranti #94– post nothing, it could be a book. Or three.
really a going to take that nap.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:46 pm
Here’s a possible path to healing:
The Church has now officially stated that it supports certain legal protections (housing, employment, etc) for gays.
Do most Mormons realize that it’s perfectly legal in most places to fire someone simply because they are gay? States like Utah lack even the most rudimentary civil-protections for gay people.
If the Yes On 8 rhetoric is to be believed, could we now see more LDS support for legislation like ENDA which has langished in congress for so long.
Comment by MikeInWeHo — November 5, 2008 @ 4:49 pm
mike in west hollywood - how are you feeling?
Comment by fmoc — November 5, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Oh, I forgot. This is ENDA.
Comment by MikeInWeHo — November 5, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
yes, the boss’ brother has bragged about it to me.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 4:52 pm
re: 91
Thanks for asking. I’m absolutely fine, and euphoric about Obama. Of course the passage of Prop 8 was terribly disappointing, but not a major surprise. Pete and I purposely deferred the idea of getting married to avoid getting emotionally and legally caught up in Prop 8. I’m not big into self-pity or negativity. The fact that it was so close is very heartening. Onward!
Comment by MikeInWeHo — November 5, 2008 @ 4:55 pm
I’m interested in mike’s point of view because we’re in the same county - Los Angeles, which contributed about 15% of the votes for all of CA and had a historically high voter turnout yesterday of 83%
Assuming you are in WeHo, what is the mood like there today? More sad or more pissed?
I’m personally both.
Comment by fmoc — November 5, 2008 @ 4:55 pm
Since Suzanne is using an invalid email address and thus breaking the rules (which I figured out upon sending her a very kind email trying to bridge the apparent divide in understanding, her comment shall now be deleted. Should she feel like being honest (also a church edict, I believe) and following the rules, she’s welcome to rejoin the conversation
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 4:56 pm
Chandelle, I read your comment (the longer one) and thought how if things had been reversed with prop 8, I would be experiencing what you are experiencing. I think it is difficult for those who are anti 8 to understand that those of us who voted for 8 are also worried about the world we raise our children in. I was not jubilant at 8 passing (because honestly, who really believes this topic is over?), but I know I would have been heartbroken if it failed.
Comment by Diana — November 5, 2008 @ 4:56 pm
Okay,
I’m just gonna say this and then I’m out. It think what’s bothering me is the hypocrisy. We all do it. We fight for rights, understanding, tolerance, morality, whatever when it’s our own agenda or belief system. The hypocrisy comes when we refuse to treat the opposition with the same validity with which we wish to be treated. It’s happening on both sides of this. Whichever side you’re on, consider that the beliefs, fears, heartaches of the person sitting across from you are just as real and valid as your own.
Just as some of us cannot understand how someone could support prop 8, your neighbor is just as confused at your support of gay marriage. Just as some of us are heart broken to see brothers and sisters in what appears to be open rebellion against the prophets, others of us are heart broken that we find it impossible to follow those prophets any longer and don’t see how others can. Whether you agree or disagree with any of the above viewpoints they are nothing less than valid to the person who truly feels or believes them.
Do we want peace or do we want to be right? Peace begins with giving up the insistence that our way is best or singular in it’s moral correctness. Peace grows with seeking to understand what is valid about others’ view points and understanding that we may never fully agree, but can work together for the good of the other despite our differences. We needn’t be so polarized if we put others ahead of self.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 4:56 pm
That’s true. Prop 8 is much closer than 22 and I’m hopeful, too. This is the great civil rights issue of our day and it’s not going away, ever.
Comment by fmoc — November 5, 2008 @ 4:58 pm
I just did something i rarely do. I erased some comments, the first four or five or so, mostly because they were not about healing or forgiveness, and in tone and spirit were derailing for this conversation. Generally I’m okay with whatever direction a conversation takes organically. But I decided to spare myself some pain and I wish I’d only done it sooner.
You are still free to disagree here, but remember basic manners and love for each other, and it is almost never kind or loving to express your joy at the price of another’s pain.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
sol– I think we all want peace and we all want to be right. Hence, as you note, problem. Regardless of who is right, we have to learn to live with each other amicably or suffer further. I find your contributions quite astute. Certainly my position baffles my in-laws, who used to assert that my opinion of homosexuality would alter the moment I became a mother. Instead, I wonder how the world will treat him if he’s gay, and become more entrenched in my position. But I also want to understand my in-laws, love them, have true communion. It’s terribly hard, though, when each side just insists the other needs to repent. It enervates conversation, not to mention communion.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
wow. I love you guys! other people actually feel like i do. Almost everyone in my ward has a “yes on 102″ in their yard. I voted yes on 102 because the church asked us too and i couldn’t feel more horrible about it. i hoped and hoped that it wouldn’t pass, but it did, and I can’t complain because I helped it to pass. But this is just SO HARD. I’m glad other LDS people feel the way I do. I just can’t bring myself to actually believe that gay people are destroying marriage…the high divorce rate right now, that’s not including gay people, obviously, because they can’t get married. I don’t think gay marriage is right, but i don’t think denying them marriage is right either. It’s just so hard.
Today an LDS woman from my ward said “This is mind boggling to me. If you are an active member of the church, who lives everything you are supposed to, this 102 prop shouldn’t be an issue.” It kind of made me want to cry and flip out on her at the same time. But i did neither.
Comment by anonymous — November 5, 2008 @ 5:06 pm
Guy (84), you need to explain. It seems not “preposterous” but “obvious” to me. The Church encourage the passage of prop 8, and Prop 8 is painful to many (trust me).
Please don’t do drive-bys here. If you have a thoughtful point, make one. But your comment is just empty smug silliness.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 5:08 pm
I wasn’t sure how I’d feel if it passed. To be honest, as wrong and as deceitful as I knew every argument to be, I still had that guilt that I was “rejecting the Prophet” in the back of my throat prodding me.
I wondered if I’d stand there, staring at the ballot, unsure what to do.
I didn’t. I voted no without thought.
I still wasn’t sure how I’d feel, though. Not until last night when I found it was passing. It broke my heart. I’m so sorry I didn’t do more. I was too scared because of the Church, because of the things people said to me, how I was regarded for my struggles with this proposition. I couldn’t vote against my conscience here. I couldn’t condone the perpetuation of lies and half-truths.
But though I did speak out at first, I was quickly shut down by friends in the church. It hurt, and it was really confusing. The same instinct I followed in joining the church nine years ago was telling me this proposition was just wrong. How can I go against that?
I’m sorry I thought my silence outside my blog and discussions with my husband would be “all I could do for this proposition.” In that silence, I condoned something I can’t explain to people beyond saying “I don’t know.”
I was afraid. There’s something really wrong with that.
But I’m sorry I remained silent. I’m sorry I didn’t respond when a family member referred to proponents as the “moral majority.”
This proposition passing is a sad shadow to cast over the wonderful news of our now President-elect Obama.
I am certain this won’t last forever, though.
Comment by Lisa — November 5, 2008 @ 5:17 pm
True. We just have to decide which one we want more.
Really leaving now.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 5:18 pm
Something being painful does not imply that it’s not right.
Your criticism of the Church and its leaders is painful to me . I think that what you are doing is not right. You I’m sure feel otherwise.
Comment by somed00d — November 5, 2008 @ 5:25 pm
Mike, thanks for pointing that out (in #86) about the Church’s statement. It makes me feel a lot better and more hopeful for progress and healing in the future.
Comment by Ana — November 5, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
Sol you wrote so clearly what I was feeling.
I’m deeply conflicted. I don’t even live in CA, and I still found myself on my knees in prayer about the issue, because there are REAL people in my life - people about whom I care very much - who woke up this morning to shattered hopes and dreams.
It certainly takes a different face when one realizes there are human beings on the other side of the issue.
For me, I will choose to not make the issue any more devisive. I will let others seek out the facts and make up their minds. I will not commiserate or rejoice. I will quietly go on loving my friends, regardless. I will not become angry or hateful if they do not see the world my way - for or against. I will respond with love and compassion to everyone - those for and those against.
That is about all I can do.
Comment by Sara — November 5, 2008 @ 5:30 pm
Lisa # 99
No more smug or silly than your comment that the Church “encouraged” the pain.
Perhaps your interpretation of the Church’s stance on Prop. 8 was that it encouraged pain; however, I have seen nothing the Church has said, done, or encouraged either on its websites or in any of its directives or broadcasts to encourage pain regarding proposition 8, Some specific reference or source or link from you, perhaps, can help enlighten me on the specifics of how the Church did this.
I will grant you that many individuals involved on both sides of proposition 8 did and said things that were mean, nasty, and in many instances illegal. That doesn’t mean the Church was responsible for those actions, or that the Church encouraged them.
Part of the PR problem the Church faced here was that it “piggy backed” onto and ongoing political process, the protectmarriage.com folks–many of whom are individuals with whom I personally have strong disagreements both politically and doctrinally. Many of the tactics used by some of these folks were in fact wrong–again on both sides. I don’t see how you lay that at the Church’s doorstep, however.
I think your sentiment to feel pain, and comfort pain is the prime example of a Christ centered life–and is indeed admirable. But, your flippant conclusion that the Church was/is the cause of pain because of how some people acted, and/or because the majority of California voters reaffirmed what eight years earlier that had already proclaimed, remains in my opinion, “preposterous.”
The Church took a moral position–whether you agree with it or not–in this debate. That is what Church’s do. They are in the morality business. The Brethren were very clear in how to treat others, particularly those who held differing beliefs. And, it was not to inflict or cause or encourage pain. It was, in fact the opposite.
Frankly, my disagreement with you, Lisa, is not in your conclusion that pain may have resulted from what went on here in CA during this campaign, or as a result of the vote. My disagreement is with your conclusion that the Church encouraged pain and/or suffering, which is simply untrue.
Comment by Guy Murray — November 5, 2008 @ 5:31 pm
Guy? The church called on its members to support a proposition which is causing a great deal of pain for the people it affects. Not that hard to understand, whether you agree with the church’s position or not.
Comment by Joanne — November 5, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
Joane,
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4713197
I think the Church is very understanding and empathetic. Lots more empathetic and understanding that you or fMhLisa are being.
Comment by somed00d — November 5, 2008 @ 5:39 pm
Is it really THAT crazy the God does not want Gay marriage?
Comment by somed00d — November 5, 2008 @ 5:40 pm
Joanne,
Whether you agree with it or not, the gay marriage push caused people a lot of pain. Not that hard to understand, whether you agree with the GLBT community or not.
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
Can someone please tell me why my posts were eliminated?
If it was because I offended someone, then why are there so many other offensive posts on this thread?
Comment by BusinessWoman — November 5, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
Joanne #106
The Church did not cause or encourage the “great deal of pain” you describe. The Church supported, adopted and encouraged a moral position.
Comment by Guy Murray — November 5, 2008 @ 5:41 pm
The Church took a hypocritical and misleading position based on a mistaken view of its morality. With the Proclamation to the World they position themselves as champions of monogamous family units, which is utter bull.
If you do a reading of D&C 132 - THE FULL CHAPTER, not just the sound bites from the manuals - and then read the words of the prophets from Brigham Young right up to the Official Declarations, you will realize that plural marriage is a practice that is ESSENTIAL to the LDS faith, even if it’s not being practiced. The Official Declarations were made in order to keep the Church’s property in Church hands and keep people out of jail - not because plural marriage no longer mattered to God. A similar procedure was carried out in 1978 when the Church was refused access to certain African nations because of their racist practices.
The bottom line is that with the passage of Prop 8 and Prop 102, the Church has unwittingly bound its own hands. When the Millennium comes and “all things are restored,” the Church will be in the unenviable position of having to reinstitute plural marriage to congregants who thought they didn’t have to worry about it - as well as do so AGAINST THE LAW THEY THEMSELVES FOUGHT TO ENACT.
I do not envy you the epiphany you will have when that happens.
Comment by Tony — November 5, 2008 @ 5:44 pm
BW
Welcome to FMH.
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 5:44 pm
sol, your comment (#94) really hit home with me. I have a good friend who is homosexual, and is incapable of understanding why somewould would vote for Prop 8 or any similar jurisdiction. Any attempts to explain the other side falls on deaf ears.
My own personal opinions of the matter are a jumble and twisting mess, because as a member of the church I feel that I should understand why allowing homosexuals the right to marry is “bad”, but at the same time I cannot overcome the sense that doing so is going against the idea of loving our brothers and sisters. It’s a huge, jumbled mess and I don’t know if I’ll ever come to a definite conclusion — but I do know that I would have voted against Prop 8, because I cannot fathom “separate but equal” being okay.
That being said, the closemindedness from both sides of the debate is staggering, and frightening. It makes me ache inside.
Comment by Katy — November 5, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
Guy, please read carefully. I said the PROPOSITION causes people pain.
Comment by Joanne — November 5, 2008 @ 5:45 pm
Well, Guy, you identify the problem handily, it’s the “moral position” itself that is problematic. And like you said, regardless of how you feel about that specific moral position, regardless of how you encourage your followers to act toward that goal, it doesn’t change the resulting pain. You can regret the pain, or not. You can condemn either side or not. The moral position is there, and the resulting pain is still there, that is not preposterous, it just is.
(this comment is modified in 132)
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 5:48 pm
Or the “moral position” is correct and lack of adherence is the problem. This is much more inline with “Keep the Commandments”
Either way, you are right the pain is real, but to subtly blame and paint the Church as the monster is painful to me.
Comment by somed00d — November 5, 2008 @ 5:52 pm
bw I explained in 96. And don’t bother to complain, I’m a tyrant, and I don’t have patience today. I’ll simply ban you. And you too Mami, if you keep poking at me. I’ve decided you’re being mean spirited, and my opinion reigns supreme.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 5:53 pm
Lisa #116
As usual we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m not denying the pain. Often moral positions, eternal laws, may result in pain depending on one’s belief in and adherence to or disobedience to those principals. But that’s not the same as your earlier conclusion that the Church “encouraged” the pain. It did not. Thanks for your indulgence. I’ll drive right on out here now.
Comment by Guy Murray — November 5, 2008 @ 5:53 pm
fmhLisa,
Your post seemed to be sincere, but then the bully tactics start and I think you are looking for more compliance than understanding.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
This is my first post on this site. I’m 23 years old and I left the church 6 years ago. I am currently In the process of having my name removed from the records of the church. I made this decision long before this prop 8 endorsement.
I often read over the posts on this site to make myself feel better about Mormon people in general. My sisters are all very very Mormon and I have a lesbian sister too. It’s tearing my family apart that half of them are trying to take away her rights as a human being (which is how we feel). On top of this they are unsympathetic/insensitive and send us anti-gay marriage propaganda. They got offended when I offered my counter arguments. Saying that I was overstepping boundaries. These are people I believe to be good deep down… yet how are they acting so callous? Why is a religious argument more justified than a moral/compassionate one? They rejoice at their victory as I see my sister and her girlfriend cry at the discrimination and inequality they are facing. It kills me to see it.
Comments like the ones Suzanne has made makes me sad because I know there isn’t a whole lot of fact behind her argument. Just fear and ignorance… No thought at all about the gay people facing this issue.
Please be considerate and look for facts. Feel compassion. Why are there people out there who will swallow whatever is fed to them by church leaders? Haven’t church leaders been proven to be fallible in the past? It scares and hurts me a great deal.
Comment by Julesb — November 5, 2008 @ 5:57 pm
The Church’s official response to the vote. Perhaps some interesting items in there to consider.
Comment by Guy Murray — November 5, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
Tony, my understanding (and I may very well be wrong) is that the re-institution of plural marriage has already taken place. I don’t think it is a given that it needs to be practiced again. My fear (as I stated on another thread) is that the allowing of gay marriage will lead to the possibility of plural marriage becoming legal.
Comment by Diana — November 5, 2008 @ 5:59 pm
Often moral positions, eternal laws, may result in pain depending on one’s belief in and adherence to or disobedience to those principals.
And often “moral positions” are just plain wrong. Not so eternal after all. And are regularly reversed and revised. It happens all the time. (want examples)
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 5:59 pm
Please, anyone who is having doubts about the church, re-read “The Family: A Proclamation to the World.” It explains why we as a religion see that marriage should be strictly between a man and a woman. It is ordained of God. Also notice how long before this day that the proclamation was published; this belief has been a part of our doctrine for a long time.
It is not hate, but simply preserving marriage as God wants it. We do not attack anyone who is homosexual, nor do we refuse to allow them to have domestic partnerships and date each other.
It is not against the idea of loving our brothers and sisters, but against the idea of accepting the sin. You can still love someone greatly while disapproving of their lifestyle.
Please, before anyone considers leaving the church over this matter, honestly pray about it. Ask our Heavenly Father if voting yes on Prop 8 was really right. He will give you an answer.
Comment by Cate — November 5, 2008 @ 5:59 pm
Yes, I’m the meanest person on the internet, yawn. move on.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 6:03 pm
Please don’t put words in my mouth.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 6:06 pm
cate,
sadly I find the proclamation a highly problematic document, as would most people who struggle with prop 8, we don’t see marriage as God wants it the way you do. I’ve honestly prayed about it, I’ve had my answer, and it’s different from yours. There really is no easy answer to making up feel better, or to agree with you.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 6:06 pm
Lisa #124
And often “moral positions” are just plain wrong. Not so eternal after all. And are regularly reversed and revised. It happens all the time. (want examples)
I did not interpret the thrust of this post to go off on the merits of the prop 8 debate. I’m not sure you and I will agree on this anyway. And, as much as I disagree with you about this and many other things, I truly have no interest in exacerbating your pain–which I do not deny.
God bless.
Comment by Guy Murray — November 5, 2008 @ 6:08 pm
somed00d,
so how do you feel about personal revelation and the dictates of one’s own conscience? What is one to do with those? These things are complex and decisions are hard and offering black and white answers in solution is rarely helpful in such situations.
Nor neither is “uncovering my true agenda”. And ascribing to me malicious motives when I’ve been struggling and striving and trying so hard for decades to build and cherish my testimony of the gospel, even with the pain this sort of thing causes me, and attitudes like yours flung at me. Please, don’t.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 6:18 pm
I am grateful that there is a place where I can feel somewhat sane. I will not be joining in on celebrations of Prop 8. I know where I stand on this issue and I firmly believe in separation of church and state. Yes, what we deem important as a society can influence legislation- for example- Thou shalt not kill. However, when one groups beliefs infringe on another groups civil rights- that is where I draw the line. It is just wrong. I think we need to look deep within ourselves and recognize the prejudices that exist. Today, was an amazing celebration for African Americans, who were once segregated from whites. Who were once told they could NEVER hold the priesthood. My co-worker, an African-American from Nigeria, who recently became a US citizen said, “Today I can tell my two children that maybe one day you can be president.” We have come so far…and yet we have so far to go. I see the similarities between gay rights and African American rights. I am struggling to reconcile this with my religion. I have been taught to follow the prophet for my entire life. I love the prophet and value the things I have been taught throughout my life as a Latter Day Saint. But I absolutely disagree with this stance. And that puts me in a really weird place….
What are we afraid of? What are our prejudices about gay and lesbian individuals that we feel we have a right to take away their rights? Because isn’t that what this is about…prejudices? What about our strong belief in free agency? What about our strong belief in emulating Christ? I mourn today also, I mourn because I also do not know how to reconcile this with my religion.
Comment by Christy — November 5, 2008 @ 6:38 pm
somed00d,
You are way out of line here. Do you really think you can judge righteousness based on hanging out here for a day or so? Is it so hard to understand that people might struggle with this issue and the church’s response? Are you actively trying to push people out of the church? Why?
The church posted a response today that included this
Apparently the official church position would allow us to feel conflicted, remorseful, and pain. Why can’t you? Lisa spoke of her desire and need to “be understanding and accepting” (as well as forgiving). Are you working toward that?
Are you really so sure that you are right with the Lord that you can condemn a fellow sister in the church for struggling?
Comment by spencer — November 5, 2008 @ 6:40 pm
Lisa - That was a beautiful post. I don’t have any easy answers for you. Just hold tight to that testimony of yours and pray for the peace that comes beyond understanding.
I don’t understand the meaning of all things, so I live with the ambiguity and walk by faith in the meantime.
Take care.
Comment by patti — November 5, 2008 @ 6:42 pm
In reference to my 114, as I was making realized I was only half-right or maybe that’s half wrong. The “Moral Stance” is only half the problem, the really hurtful thing is actively trying to get one’s (socially problematic) (and actively painful) moral stance legislated.
Which really is off topic, has nothing to do with healing (sorry) just got drawn in and didn’t want to let my mistake stand.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 6:45 pm
From the church’s official response to the vote:
“It is important to understand that this issue for the Church has always been about the sacred and divine institution of marriage — a union between a man and a woman.”
And herein lies my biggest beef with the church’s involvement with Prop. 8: rank hypocrisy. I mean the above quote is an out and out lie. Woman should be “women” of course. I cannot understand why a church that once was persecuted for its unorthodox beliefs of what consisted a marriage, can now pretend to take the moral high ground in its revisionist definition of it.
Although I must say I also see some rank hypocrisy in Lisa deleting others’ comments for being offensive while leaving mfranti’s bit of name calling intact. Interesting.
Comment by Katie M. — November 5, 2008 @ 6:46 pm
Wait, what happened to the thread about forgiveness?
Maybe we all need some chocolate and sleep. I know I do. I’ve been alternately deliciously happy and disconsolate all day.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 6:46 pm
I’m deeply hurt that so many of these posts and comments feel the need to make the Church’s support of 8 an “anti” movement.
I am blown away by the backlash hate and misunderstanding.
People voted for 8 in good faith. People believe in marriage so defined as an eternal principal that exists without the bounds of our own miniscule existences. People believe that marriage is not about love and unity of hearts and all that. People believe that marriage actually means more than what our immature minds and spirits can grasp. How about a little understanding.
Not one Church release has stated that gays must be punished or otherwise, and no harm will come to their rights, except in title of union alone.
I personally hope 8 is challenged and the state goes to recognizing only unions, with marriage as something organized religions carry out.
Lisa, pain and anguish is evidence of a compassionate heart. You are a good heart, it is easy to tell.
That does not mean what happened was wrong. It does not mean that your way was right.
Wishing you comfort in some simple things in the coming days. Life will move on and there will be better days for you.
Comment by Nasamomdele — November 5, 2008 @ 6:46 pm
fmhLisa,
It’s hard for me to understand how you don’t see that you lose all credibility when you censor those who’s opinions you do not like or who, more specifically, disagree with you directly. You could say you removed the comments for argumentative tone or other such reasons, but then you would need to remove those of some of your friends and even your own. What reason, other than pettiness or fear, can you give for your abuse of admin power?
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 6:47 pm
#133,
Katie M.,
No more beef, please.
Comment by Nasamomdele — November 5, 2008 @ 6:47 pm
Spence, I agree that I was out of line and went over the line. I asked to have my posts removed.
You be the judge, do these words sound like one who is struggling? #124.
Not to me. I still think fMhLisa is putting on a show. But I should give here the benefit of the doubt and leave. Later.
Comment by somed00d — November 5, 2008 @ 6:50 pm
fmh Lisa,
I just wanted to jump into the fray and say I love you. And I’m wrestling with that pain you described intensely today.
If you had ever told me that a day would come when I wasn’t sure if the church held a home for me, I would have clawed your face off. Today is that day. I know I can’t leave, but I also don’t feel like the church brings me the peace it used to, I work every day to teach my Young Women this gospel, and I feel more hollow about it every day.
I was wondering if I’d feel differently about Prop 8 if President Hinckley were still alive. Would I be more willing to ignore my pressing conscious and my lack of spiritual confirmation to just shutup and follow given the years of trust he had built up? I don’t know. And I don’t know what that says about my faith either.
I have to renew my temple recommend, and I’m terrified this question will pop up. I’ve heard apocryphal anecdotes about GA’s saying that anyone who holds a temple recommend had better be supporting Prop 8. What truth is there or what that may mean in application, I have no idea. I just don’t want to be the one who finds out the hard way.
Comment by reese — November 5, 2008 @ 6:51 pm
I am personally quite ambivalent to the whole thing. I do not know anyone who is impacted one way or the other by this proposition. I guess that is why I am having a hard time understanding all of the emotion about the topic, on both sides of the equation.
Comment by StillConfused — November 5, 2008 @ 6:51 pm
some d00d was acting the troll. I deleted him. Don’t blame Lisa for that one
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 6:53 pm
kateM,
please see #68.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 6:53 pm
I should take credit for some of the deletions, though only of one person pretending to be 3 who didn’t use a single working email address. I’m cool with everyone else. Anyhow, don’t blame Lisa for all the deletes; I did a couple.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 6:53 pm
Is it really that hard to understand why someone gets upset when they take their heart out and bear it for all to see and immediately people start stomping on it? I read Lisa’s post and felt her pain and anguish, and saw her desire to find a way past it. People immediately jumped on her for it. How would you react in a similar situation?
Furthermore, for better or worse, mfranti is a perma-blogger here and friend of Lisa’s its not her job to be fair and balanced to everyone here.
Comment by spencer — November 5, 2008 @ 6:53 pm
I read the Church’s response to the results of Prop 8, and when also taking in consideration the heavyhanded stuff read over the pulpit here in LA county, it just sounds like a lot of double talk. Kind of like, “yes we are special and traditional and you’re not and we know this is devisive and it’s hard to hear, but we’ll say it real nicely, which means we’re being compassionate.” For those who have not actually read the propositon, the first three words are “Eliminates Right of…” And this is Christian how? Yes, I want to heal and move forward, but today I’m grieving and angry.
Comment by newbie — November 5, 2008 @ 6:54 pm
Katie, all, let’s change the tone if we can. Let (including me) get back to trying to hear each other and understand and empathize with each other.
I joke about being a tyrant, but I really do try my best. I rarely, almost never erase comments and I felt there was a complex combination of factors that made it better if I erased those. Perhaps there is a level hypocrisy in there, probably there is, but I’m only human, ultimately I could not in good conscience let a post about healing and forgiveness start off with the tone BW set. It felt deeply wrong to me.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
I guess you’ve left somed00d, but I’ve been reading FMH since 2004. I’ve never met Lisa, but I really do believe her intention is to be the best person (and member) she can be. Don’t be so quick to judge.
Comment by spencer — November 5, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
…and don’t blame me. i’m not moderating or even reading this thread.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 6:56 pm
spencer-
Lisa’s already married. Might wanna woo somewhere else.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 6:58 pm
reese, I think that the last paragraph of the church’s post today makes it pretty clear that they understood that some members wouldn’t get on board. I can’t imagine they are going to start adding a political test to the TR interview.
Comment by spencer — November 5, 2008 @ 6:59 pm
#149, damn - moving on.
Comment by spencer — November 5, 2008 @ 6:59 pm
Comment by spencer — November 5, 2008 @ 6:59 pm
That was a joke, right sol? You wrote so eloquently upthread about bridging that divide. You meant to add a smiley face, right?
Comment by reese — November 5, 2008 @ 6:59 pm
one more thing. i think lisa left my comments up because i had made a public apology for my tone later on in the comments.
can y’all stop talking about me now? thanks.
Comment by mfranti — November 5, 2008 @ 7:01 pm
Is it really that crazy that God doesn’t want African Americans to have the priesthood or be sealed in the temple? Is it really that crazy that God wants some dude to have more than one wife?
Trust me, God does things that plenty of people consider crazy.
Comment by jjohnsen — November 5, 2008 @ 7:01 pm
Well, there you go, Spencer added it for you. I’ll follow his example and grin write along.
Spencer, I sure hope you’re right, but it wouldn’t be the first time local leaders got carried away in their zeal.
Comment by reese — November 5, 2008 @ 7:01 pm
Lisa-
If those weren’t all your deletions I apologize for a hasty assumption. I will also change my #137 to address anyone who deletes comments based on argumentative tone (trolling included) and leaves up comments referring to another commenter chicken shit. Highly hypocritical and serves to hinder credibility.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 7:01 pm
Lisa-You are right and my tone was unbecoming. I quite respect what you do here. I just have to say that scrolling through and seeing someone called a “chicken shit” was really surprising and not something I’ve seen here before (with or w/o a later apology). But I do respect the right of the perma-bloggers to make those calls.
Comment by Katie M. — November 5, 2008 @ 7:01 pm
Sorry mfranti….posted my comment before I saw your #154. I am moving on.
Comment by Katie M. — November 5, 2008 @ 7:03 pm
I suppose that’s part of it, newbie, it’s probably good to be angry for a few days. But tomorrow, tomorrow I’m really going to try to understand that my friends and leaders did this out of what they felt were good motives, and I’m going to try to understand those motives, no matter how much I disagree with them.
They honestly feel like they’re protecting something, they honestly feel a threat. I thinking trying to understand the way their minds work is the right thing to do. And not only that, but we’ll make a lot more inroads with each other, be able to live together better if we don’t ascribe horrible motives like bigotry and hypocrisy, ultimately we are all bigots and hypocrites sometimes. And we don’t generally learn anything to but to be defensive and self-righteous if people label us such.
Or something.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 7:03 pm
spencer, if you wanna, you can be first in line for my eternal harem.
creepy much?
Comment by fMhLisa — November 5, 2008 @ 7:05 pm
#154- well, obviously I’d rather be right than have peace in this instance.
Comment by sol — November 5, 2008 @ 7:06 pm
This was the ugliest win of the election. That statement would be true regardless of who won. Still, the campaign for Prop 8 is a disgrace and a rebuke to Christian men and women everywhere.
I take no comfort in the 13th hour statement the church put out. After ensuring its members would bankroll and do much of the organizing behind the effort, it was surely being aware of how the campaign was being carried out–by others, yes, but also its own people. To now call for “mutual respect”, to state that “no one should be vilified . . . or subject to erroneous information” is farcical and self-serving. That statement is four months overdue. I might just as well hand a bunch of juveniles a loaded gun and show up in court some time later to remind them to be careful where they point it.
Process matters. The means matter. That’s basic Christianity.
Comment by Mathew — November 5, 2008 @ 7:07 pm
#136 Because it is her home and they were tracking mud in. I let my friends crash for the weekend and trash my place after a bad breakup. I don’t let some asshole waltz in and start busting up the furniture because he feels entitled to it. This isn’t the Library of Congress, it’s a blog. And some people might need a space where they can go and work this out right now without all the asshatery getting in the way. I think this is the end of the road for me and fMh and I am writing a final post about it but it might take me awhile because I am crying a lot and reading a lot. Mostly Walt Whitman and MLK Letters From a Birmingham Jail. I have loved this place.
Comment by crazywomancreek — November 5, 2008 @ 7:11 pm
#123- I agree with you on your fear… in that I believe that one of the main reasons the Church fought so hard to pass Prop 8 was to avoid plural marriage issues, because that surely would come next.
As for how to seek healing and forgiveness… I just don’t know. I was so exuberant last night over Obama’s win. I was filled with hope listening to his speech and seeing the tear-filled eyes of those who were listening to him,I felt very good for once that I was an American and that I was a part of this great process and I felt so humbled and so grateful for the many women who have made it possible for me to be able to cast my vote for Obama and to have a small part in that. I was crying through his speech and called my friend and we cried together and just felt hopeful for the first time in a long time. He does inspire others and I know that for once my vote went for someone good!
Then I woke up this morning and turned on the news and my heart fell when I heard about Prop 8. I sat on my bed and cried. How can people be so cruel? I thought back to all my friends I have known and loved throughout my life, friends who will be affected bythis personally. I don’t even live in California, though i grew up there and I have many friends and loved ones there.. good friends who are homosexual and whose lives this is affecting in a very personal way. I have friends here in Washington who are sad for their friends in California and it’s just upsetting to me all around. My husband and I led a group in our ward back in 2000 when we voted for the Defense of Marriage Act when it first came on the ballot and we were very strong supporters, doing everything the Church asked us to do. I was naive and young and didn’t think to even question or decide what I thought for myself. I just did it because I was asked to. I look back on that and I am sad for how I could have caused pain to others that this act would have affected. I didn’t think about it then. I believed I was doing what God literally wanted me to do and I didn’t separate at all God from the Church organization. I didn’t even think to pray about it. To me, God and the Church were one and the same.
Today if I lived in California I would have voted No on Prop 8 for many many reasons. There is no way I can look at this and see that this is a Godly thing… I am not saying the Brethren are completely wrong, maybe they had no choice but to support this, but I don’t think they were right either. They are not infallible as the scriptures and history has shown us. We set ourselves up for disappointment when we expect perfection from our mortal leaders. It is only from God that we can expect unconditional love and peace and perfection. His organization is not perfect because it is run by imperfect people. I think the only way I can make peace with this is by knowing that this issue will not go away… it will come back again and I believe that the next time around the outcome will be different, much different. I look forward to that day. I believe that God loves all His children, regardless of race or sexual orientation and to Him our happiness is most important…and that those who impose upon everyone else “their” interpretation of happiness are not really happy themselves. Maybe that’s simplistic and maybe I’m wrong.
I have hope that things will be better… because after all we voted yesterday to elect an African-American into the Presidency of the United States of America! To me that is proof that things can change here… that we can renegotiate our beliefs, our decisions, the things we have fought for and stood for. Part of maturing is an having an ability to be grateful, even in the midst of things happening that we don’t agree with.
I love Oprah’s idea to have a gratitude journal. Maybe this can help to deal with the pain and the hurt from this? I don’t know. Maybe that is too simplistic too. But I am grateful right now that there is proof, there is evidence in our history that we CAN learn from our past mistakes, that we CAN fix things that need to be righted! I am grateful that we have an opportunity to make our voices heard and we can vote our conscience! I am grateful for the ability to discuss freely our concerns, work out and discuss the issues and try to learn from one another. I am grateful that this issue is not over… that because of the Democratic Republic of which we are a part, we can vote on this again and have a chance to fix this and make it right! This is not the end! This is not the end of the line or the final word! We will be here again and I believe it will be sooner rather than later.
Comment by bookwormmama — November 5, 2008 @ 7:16 pm
CWC - my computer crash stole your email address. Would you email me at tresa at reesedixon dot com?
Comment by reese — November 5, 2008 @ 7:18 pm
sol
Perma’s don’t moderate each other here — we exercise our own judgment and moderate ourselves. Even when one of us messes up — it’s up to her to make it right, not one of the others.
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 7:22 pm
fhmLisa, in regards to motivation… I honestly and truly believe and hope that the Church was motivated by love and not fear out of their support of Prop 8. I don’t know for sure as I am not sitting there up in the office with the Twelve while they hash out the details and talk about the issues. I do know that for ALL of us… everything we do is either motivated by fear or love. And if we are able to look at each other, realizing and knowing that these are where our motivations come from… then maybe we can use that information to help us bridge the gap with understanding and peace… knowing that we may not agree, but that we can still try to understand the other person, realizing that these are human emotions and motivations that we are ALL motivated by at some point or another throughout our lives. That is a common thread maybe that we can start with. I don’t know… maybe I’m being too optimistic, maybe too simplistic… maybe I am making no sense at all! Just some random thoughts..
Comment by bookwormmama — November 5, 2008 @ 7:22 pm
#164 crazywomancreek , say it ain’t so?
Comment by fmoc — November 5, 2008 @ 7:26 pm
cwc
You presence and your insight makes this a better place. If you leave who will speak those words we need to hear??
Take a sabbatical if you must, but don’t leave us. You’ve inspired and given new thoughts to people. You’ll leave a hole if you go.
Sometimes we accomplish more in difficult places than we ever could in easy ones………
Comment by Not Ophelia — November 5, 2008 @ 7:35 pm
I have felt what you are feeling Lisa, and there is no easy way to reconcile. I went through it with this issue and others and eventually left. Its painful and heart wrenching.
I left the church a long time ago, but as someone whose family and inlaws are all mormons in california who donated significant money and time to Yes on 8, this hurts. They know how I feel and it has put a rift in our relationship even worse than me leaving the church did. I feel like I need to apologize to every gay married couple in california who is mourning today for the actions of my family there. It hurts.
Many have said in comments that it wasn’t just the church who did this. But their coalition they formed over 10 years ago and the 30 million the members donated (thats just members that registered they were mormon, I saw about 25 names on that list amounting to over 60k from my parents ward alone that weren’t listed as mormon) was a significant factor. Also, saying the church was motivated out of love makes me want to pull my hair out.
Right now though, I feel it is important to focus on the victories from yesterday…the amazing revolution that occured. When I read about the spontaneous parades and celebrations in the street - that were peaceful and unifying, I get chills. We have an opportunity to hear. Our faith in American democracy has been restored. Lets focus on that and look forward. Stay positive!
Comment by julie — November 5, 2008 @ 7:46 pm
My heart is broken over this.
Comment by MoHoHawaii — November 5, 2008 @ 7:47 pm
I have nothing to offer but cyberhugs. I’d mail chocolate to everyone if it wouldn’t melt on the way. Although I’ve been known to lick melted chocolate out of the wrapper…
I will say that I dread attending Church services this coming weekend more than any other in my entire life (well, this weekend and next Fast Sunday). I am afraid I will run screaming through the building if anyone stands behind the pulpit to announce their joy and victory over the passing of 8.
It’s strange… I understand in the most basic sense why the Church took a “moral stance” on this issue, but the amount of pure bile that flowed out of people in their absolute desperate need to denounce equal rights for our gay brothers and sisters… I can never forget. Why no one ever laid down ground rules on appropriate behavior for this “campaign” is beyond me - no, what is beyond me is how shockingly obvious it is that people are unable and unwilling to behave appropriately no matter what. Plain, common decency flew out the window. I can not tell you the spiteful e-mails we received from members of our ward, filled with obscene language used for nothing more than shock value. It smacked of ignorance and fear.
I have learned much about forgiveness this year. Much more than I ever wanted to know, and perhaps more than I can properly follow through with in my lifetime. It is the forgetting that I am terrible with. And I worry I will never be good at that part.
This is harshing my Obama buzz in the worst way. I wish we could just be kind to each other no matter our differences.
Comment by Jill — November 5, 2008 @ 7:54 pm
Friends, I suggest that some of you may want to be careful what you publicly post, because the crusade really isn’t over. See this passage from today’s Deseret News, which presumably doesn’t misquote LDS general authorities:
“When asked about whether Latter-day Saints who publicly opposed Prop 8 would be subject to some kind of church discipline, Elder Clayton said those judgments are left up to local bishops and stake presidents and the particular circumstances involved. ‘All we can say is that the LDS Church gives way to the spiritual discernment of local leaders in the handling of any matter that might involve the kind of question you have raised.’”
In other words, the fallout is yet to come on those who dared to disagree with Monson & Co.
Comment by Nick Literski — November 5, 2008 @ 7:57 pm
CWC,
I don’t even comment very much but I had to say that I hope you stay! I love reading your posts and comments.
fmhLisa,
My heart is heavy today too. I don’t even live in California (I live all the way in NC) but I was deeply saddened when I heard that Proposition 8 had passed.
Comment by CTR — November 5, 2008 @ 7:57 pm
I’m struggling with comments that have been made about the mistakes our leaders make, etc. I think that if I felt as those of you do who think they have made a human error, then I don’t see how I could take any of their counsel in other things. How do you reconcile when they are leading correctly and when they are leading you astray. I don’t mean anything mean by this, it just doesn’t make sense to me. If I felt that at any time a directive that came from the first presidency might or might not be coming from Christ (the head of the church) it seems to completely crumble any footing they’d have in guiding my life. It was the fact that these men, who I’ve sustained as “prophets, seers, and revelators” came forward and issued a proclamation that pushed me most into voting yes. Once I voted. I felt a great sense of relief that I had followed the counsel of our leaders.
Comment by Diana — November 5, 2008 @ 8:00 pm
#174 — bring it on. My conscience is clear. it is also my own and I have no fear of being held accountable for it before God.
Comment by Lady — November 5, 2008 @ 8:01 pm
Nick,
Drop the fearmongering. I recently had my reccomend interview and asked about this. They said they just ask the normal questions and let people answer according to their conscience. There is no mandate to discipline people who disagree with the Prop 8 campaign.
Comment by mami — November 5, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
CWC, that truly makes me sad.
Comment by Stephanie — November 5, 2008 @ 8:11 pm
I also just renewed my recommend and was not asked anything at all about Prop 8 (although I did wonder, if I were actively working in the anti camp how I would answer 1 of the questions in particular… I’m still not sure since I’m not in those shoes).
Comment by Diana — November 5, 2008 @ 8:11 pm
Julie,
I agree with you on focusing on the victories. On how far we have come. When I said that the church was motivated out of love… I said I HOPE that the church was motivated out of love. I don’t know that they were… possibly this was out of fear. That’s a very good possibility.
Comment by bookwormmama — November 5, 2008 @ 8:15 pm
Prop 8 was so close. It might have gone the other way. Have a good dinner. Get a good night’s sleep. Leave that burden of grief and disappointment on the doorstep. Go for a long walk. Then, next week, pick it up and go back to work. The vote was so close. Next time the proposition is on the ballot, it may come out right. Next time the church may reconsider it’s ill advised forages into such political issues as civil rights for gay Americans. Care and Speak up. It is how change happens. Thank you for the original post. There will be a next time.
Comment by Betty Jo — November 5, 2008 @ 8:31 pm
Also had a recommend interview this week—questions haven’t changed. (Though I was amused when the counselor admitted he got them off Google.)
Comment by Phoenix — November 5, 2008 @ 8:31 pm
Diana -
I have a testimony of the prophets, but I also have a testimony of personal revelation. One of my big conflicts with this particular directive is that I personally never received confirmation of its correctness.
Whenever I have recieved that spirit of confirmation, I have followed. But the Prophets are not the Pope. It has never been a tenet of our faith that they are infallible. That is one of the beautiful things about our restored church having access to the Holy Ghost.
Comment by reese — November 5, 2008 @ 8:39 pm
FMHLisa,
I bawled like a baby throughout your post and the comments. Thank you so much for this post. I don’t have answers or know what I’m personally going to do from here, but I really needed that cry and to know that I am not alone in what I am feeling right now.
Comment by tesseract — November 5, 2008 @ 8:46 pm
fmhLisa-
I can tell that this issue is close to your heart so I ask others to be gentle as well. I was thinking about the original post while I was making dinner and what I would say to you if you were there with me.
I thought about the song you mentioned, “One.” Healing starts with one, you. You are already providing healing for others. Your opinion is valid, even in the church. As long as we can respect each other, which I think we can. Others are leaning on you right now and you can lean on others.
I did see this in the Church’s position that I thought was important.
“Before it accepted the invitation to join broad-based coalitions for the amendments, the Church knew that some of its members would choose not to support its position. Voting choices by Latter-day Saints, like all other people, are influenced by their own unique experiences and circumstances. As we move forward from the election, Church members need to be understanding and accepting of each other and work together for a better society. ”
I may not agree with you on this issue, but I can’t help but feel for your heart right now and offer you a hand. I am not going to push my opinions in this situation. I don’t think it would be approrpriate.
Comment by Katie — November 5, 2008 @ 8:57 pm
Thanks for the post. I was so happy last night about Obama’s win, but felt continually anxious waiting to hear news on Prop 8. I was then so angry and overwhelmed with sadness for all those wonderful couples who have pledges their lives to each other and the others who where waiting and looking forward for a chance for themselves.
Reading the comments was cathartic. I was so angry with some, so sad about others, and plain blown away at the hope that those hurt most showed. I too will feel hopeful. It was close, not here in Florida, but in California. I too will fight another day.
I will try to forgive and be an example of tolerance and hope.
Thanks for a place to come and forgive me if a fail at times in the example of tolerance and hope.
Comment by Miles — November 5, 2008 @ 9:06 pm
fmhLisa- Thank you so very much for your post. I am heartbroken. I am glad I am not alone.
cwc- Please don’t leave. We need you here…
Even though I don’t comment very much– many of the bloggers here feel like family. My cyber-family. I have come to love and count on the comments of several women and men who can help us all learn and grow and stretch and laugh and cry. Thank you for being a part of this. It is something special to be sure.
Comment by moksha — November 5, 2008 @ 9:10 pm
re: 174, which came out TODAY, it is clearly stating that if a leader wishes to punish someone for not toeing the line in Prop. 8, that’s just peachy with the authorities. Fun times.
I am somewhere between amused and disgusted at the official statement of the Mormon church with ref to prop. 8, only slightly paraphrased: “I’m shocked, shocked to find vilification, intimidation, harassment or erroneous information passing is going on in here!”
Comment by djinn — November 5, 2008 @ 9:12 pm
fMhLisa, I’m so glad you articulated what I’ve been crying about all day (crying hard enough that I just barely found the post!). There’s a world of hurt out there, and I feel horrible about it. I am so, so glad to know that I’m not alone.
If I ever do leave the church, it will be when I feel there is no longer room for me to be there. For my sake, please, those of you who are ready to leave — don’t — I could not bear to feel that I’m the last nonconformist standing. I’m trying very hard to hang in there, to look forward, to embrace the amazing good that there is in the church. We as Mormons are very good at telling people, smugly, “This is the way it is; if you don’t like it you’re welcome to leave.” The scriptures and the spirit tell me otherwise.
I have felt very strongly through the last several months that I am not supposed to support the Yes on 8 measures in any way. (Kind of strange, since I don’t live in CA anymore, it doesn’t affect me directly, and my leaders haven’t asked me to support it.) The only comfort I have today is a small whisper telling me that everything will be okay, that God loves all of His children, and we don’t all get the same answers to our questions.
I wanted with all my heart to move back to CA after my husband and I finished grad school, and the two job offers he got were both in MA. With some perspective, now, I realize that God knew I would need to be far away from the Prop 8 battle. (I suspect there are other reasons I’m here, too, but that’s beyond the scope of this comment.)
And CWC, please don’t leave us. You make us feel less peculiar in our peculiarness. You’re our sister. I’d miss you terribly.
Comment by Libby — November 5, 2008 @ 9:13 pm
I don’t know if my comments will be appreciated here, but here goes:
I am a 24 year old gay Utah Mormon with an extremely active family. I have been struggling with this over the last few weeks, and have been languishing while waiting for the results with little motivation to do anything but glue my face to the computer screen. I recently even brought up the topic with my parents, each individually, and received different but concurring responses from both of them. It breaks my heart that my parents can’t understand that I don’t want them to love me in the context of their religion. I simply want their love independent of what they feel for God.
I have been contemplating whether or not to have my Church records removed, and at this point in time, I think that will be one of my next actions. Maybe this will help them understand that what they want for me can’t be forced upon me. I have struggled to maintain a relationship with my family as I continually feel left out due to their religious nature, and I think it is due to misunderstanding. Does anyone here know how to bridge that divide? I am beginning to understand that I can’t understand how they feel, and I don’t believe that there is any way for them to understand me.
I came on here yesterday and noticed the ad with the thieving missionaries. When I first saw it, I rejoiced, because I thought it might make people in California reconsider. I have discovered on this site though, that it seems to do more harm than good to negatively campaign.
One of my concerns with something like this is that it seems to make discrimination and violence toward the gay community justified. The FBI released a report last week that hate crimes last year were down across the board, except for when concerning the LGBT community. Those were up 6%. How do you reconcile with someone that you feel is almost making those attacks legitimate through their ad campaigns? I felt like I was being demonized by the commercials used, and that it could have inspired people to violence against gays in some places (I’m not referencing violence that was a direct result of the Prop 8 campaign; I’m more or less talking about activities in other regions that could happen because a “progressive” state in the country even feels gay people do not have the right to marry).
Lately I’ve been listening to that new Nickelback song a lot, and it makes it hurt even worse…
Peace!
Nate
Comment by nategiggles — November 5, 2008 @ 9:14 pm
For those of you who really are still wondering why the church or church members would choose to support Prop 8:
Sometimes there are unknown consequences for an action. We can guess at what positive or negative consequences might result, but we never really know for sure. Those of us who are choosing to trust in what the church has said might be imagining that the unknown negative consequences might outweight the unknown positive results of gay marriage.
Take our new president. I voted for McCain. Now that Obama is President I find myself hoping for all the positive consequences I can imagine. We don’t really know for sure what positives or negatives will happen in the next four years. I’m hoping for all the great things that his campaign stood for, and hoping for none of the negatives I was worried about. I doubt either campaign really knows the future. Often, life surprises us.
Comment by jks — November 5, 2008 @ 9:15 pm
But more seriously, for those of us who believe with all our hearts that churches should not write their moral code into our laws (really, the church with the most votes is going to win that one, and it ain’t going to be the Mormons), this is a tragedy. How can I forgive my family? Ignore the Stegosaurous in the room? I find it only mildly amusing that the “Yes on 8″ people unthinkingly assume that not only is their position moral, but it is the only position that someone who considers herself moral could hold.
Comment by djinn — November 5, 2008 @ 9:16 pm
I love this Nate. I absolutely love this. With all of this going on I’ve been thinking often of what I would do if my son were to come to me with the news that he were gay. I hope I would be able to live up to this.
Comment by reese — November 5, 2008 @ 9:21 pm
There is one thing I wanted to add:
Why does this seem to be a zero-sum game for the proponents of Prop 8?
Comment by nategiggles — November 5, 2008 @ 9:34 pm
I think that obi-wan and others have blown the shit out of the whole forgiveness and healing theme. I think I managed to stay on theme in #28, but it’s not going to last with all the vague accusations flowing against the church. To all of those who have come to this forgiveness and healing thread to rail on the church and your fellow members for sins both real and imagined: Face it: you don’t want our forgiveness, and you don’t plan to forgive us. And you think the only way to “heal” is to change the government and then bring it back to force your will upon the church, kind of like what the Sadducees did with the Romans. We don’t require you to agree with us to have fellowship with us in the church. But when you say poisonous and inflammatory lies about our motives in front of outsiders, let’s make not mince words — you are attempting a hostile takeover.
Comment by Christian — November 5, 2008 @ 9:45 pm
I am coming late to this, so I still am catching up on the comments - and am thoroughly saddened by some of them on BOTH sides in a thread that is focused on peace and reconciliation.
Mike’s #84 is spot-on, imo. The way for those who voted Yes to prove that hate was not their motivation is now to work to ensure that civil unions include every legal,civil right of marriage. The way for those who voted No to prove the exact same thing (that they are not hateful toward those who disagreed) is to allow that to happen by working side-by-side with their former “opponents”.
BOTH sides have included those that said and did terrible things. BOTH sides need to accept and strive to follow the following:
Matthew 5: 43-47 —
43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
I understand how brutally hard that is, and it is worth noting that it is the last characteristic listed prior to the command to be perfect (complete, whole, fully developed) in verse 48.
Reach out to those who voted for Prop 8 and serve them. “Love” them as an active verb until you can “love” them as a feeling.
1 John 4:19 says:
“We love him, because he first loved us.”
My advice, Lisa:
First love them.
Comment by Ray — November 5, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
Wow Ray, just Wow. I want to be like you when I grow up.
Comment by djinn — November 5, 2008 @ 10:02 pm
Thank you Ray — I’d missed Mike’s wonderful post in #84. I agree that’s a good thing to do, Mike, for its own sake. I don’t think it will in the least bit dampen the “bigot” shriekers. It wouldn’t do a damned thing for our reputation, since this ssm thing wasn’t ever really about rights to begin with. But it’s something we should do simply because it’s the right thing to do.
Comment by Christian — November 5, 2008 @ 10:02 pm
This is the last straw. I can never forgive the church for this. I was raised Mormon and though I long ago stopped attending, I held a soft spot for the things I believe it taught me. I would jump up to defend it from outsiders and every now and then daydreamed of the day I might go back. The reason FMH is part of my daily routine is partly the nostalgia I feel.
The support of prop 8 has undone all of that. I have had my name removed from the rolls. Whenever the “Mormon” topic comes up in conversation, I will have nothing positive to say about it. In fact, I will actively dissuade anyone I find is considering membership. I think the best way to heal will be to fight back. So that’s what I will do.
Comment by Mike G — November 5, 2008 @ 10:09 pm
Yo. If CWC exits, I’m gone as well. Solidarity, sister. The blog is awesome, I semi-worship the permas, but the comments are chipping away at my last shreds of optimism about the human race. Why suffer?
Comment by Chandelle — November 5, 2008 @ 10:11 pm
Mike G (and anyone else who is thinking this in their grief), please reconsider. I understand the anger. However, if our ultimate goal is to become like Christ, he outlined the way for us in the Sermon on the Mount. If you feel you must leave the Church, I understand. That is your right and your choice to make. Please, however, don’t choose to fight out of a belief that it will bring healing. It won’t. That I can promise. It might bring satisfaction in the short-term, but it won’t bring peace.
You deserve peace. Jesus laid out how to get it. Inside or outside the Church, developing the characteristics in the Sermon on the Mount will bring a measure of peace that nothing else can provide. If, right now (or even years from now), you can’t find peace in the Church, at least seek it elsewhere in the same way you hopefully would in the Church. Please, don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Comment by Ray — November 5, 2008 @ 10:24 pm
Ray– maybe fighting back in the manner of Dr. King? Many of his followers fought for equal rights and did so while adhering to the teachings of Christ. Maybe “fighting” doesn’t have to be a self-limiting circle of fighting for fighting’s sake, but rather in the sense of working to create a more equitable society. Although, I keep remembering the folk song that says “the hand that is empty soon turns to a fist.” Today, I don’t blame my gay friends for feeling like their hands have been emptied.
Still, anger for anger’s sake is never a great answer. Which is why I like your Sermon on the Mount reference. I don’t understand the church’s position, but I do know that its position on how to treat other individuals in our lives accords with my own even if the legal stance does not. Nonetheless, “blessed are the meek” who only inherit the earth . . . later. What we want now, we work for. Which is all to say, I have zero answers.
Sooooo tired. Really needed that un-napped nap earlier! Must… sleep.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
re: 200
I hope you take a few days before you make that decision, Mike G. It’s never good to make a major life decision in a state of acute anger, in my experience. It might be better just to back off for a while, enjoy your life, and try and forget about this whole thing for now. But I certainly understand how you feel.
Here in West Hollywood (aka Homo Provo), there’s a lot of anger and resolve. One of the main boulevards is blocked off for a huge vigil tonight. I’ll try and attend and take some pictures.
My heart is not too heavy and I don’t feel particularly angry. The Obama victory means so much more to me. One defeat by 4% is just a blip, really, against the background of a decades long civil rights battle. I’m with Andrew Sullivan.
Comment by MikeInWeHo — November 5, 2008 @ 10:31 pm
Chandelle, if those who don’t understand your suffering never see it, they never will understand it. I know it is painful to expose suffering, but please don’t rob others of the only way for them to understand - unless doing so really is beyond your current ability. If that is the case, increase your ability through becoming more Christ-like - then expose them to it again so they can have another chance to understand.
“Life is pain, highness,” carries much more import and power than comes across in the movie. Too many of us cover our warts, because we assume nobody else is as hideous as we are - because the make-up they apply to hide theirs works better than ours. I wonder how many others around us in the pews have warts they are hiding, as well - because they are sure we don’t have any and are scared of being seen as hideous by us. What a vicious cycle.
Again, I know it is painful (incredibly so, sometimes) to remove the make-up and go out in public amid the perfectly coifed in our jammies and hair rollers - but sometimes letting others see our warts is the only way to help others reveal theirs. We can’t help each other heal until we collectively recognize and admit our illness - until we see each other as the mutual sickos we really are.
Comment by Ray — November 5, 2008 @ 10:34 pm
I’m reading backwards, and now I must WAIL. I totally understand your frustration, but please don’t abandon your Mormon friends because of Prop 8 CWC and Chandelle (and everyone else talking about doing so, I just know you less). WAIL WAIL WAIL . . .I adore you both so much. WAAAH. Don’t leave, at least not forever. If begging helps at all I will beg until I’m hoarse. And then I’ll beg some more. What I lack in dignity I make up for in sincerity and adoration.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 10:37 pm
That’s *awesome*, Ray. I will happily scamper about in my jammies for mutual ailment-recognition purposes. And really, isn’t that the purpose a blog serves?
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 10:39 pm
#203 - Janet, yes, fight like MLK. Please, fight like MLK.
#204 - Mike, when I grow up I want to be like you - in all the ways that I believe matter the very most. (the others, not so much - *grin*) I don’t know if I can express how much I love and admire and respect you, but it has never been more obvious why than on this thread.
Comment by Ray — November 5, 2008 @ 10:39 pm
Mike, what Ray said.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 10:40 pm
And Ray, ditto what djinn said. In all this pain I still find much to admire in so many people here. I love this community for being honest about its pain and for trying to work together even IN that pain and IN the space of internal disagreement. Hot rollers, pajamas, injuries and all.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2008 @ 10:44 pm
So that’s what I’ve been doing.
It’s not that I have no boundries or sense of propriety, no no.
I’m charitable and courageous and showing my warts to the world.
Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Comment by reese — November 5, 2008 @ 10:47 pm
Jammies for humanity!
Comment by Libby — November 5, 2008 @ 10:55 pm
Remember Mormonsformarriage, that Hera posted about quite awhile ago? There are a couple of nice things posted there too about the end of the election:
http://mormonsformarriage.com/
Comment by Paula — November 5, 2008 @ 11:04 pm
Chandelle- Please don’t leave fmh. Your viewpoint is invaluable and adds much to the woven fabric that this blog creates. Take heart from people like MikeinWeHo. If he can find even some measure of peace and say that he is not too angry or too heavy-laiden, then hopefully you and CWC can too. We learn from the examples that you all set forth.
Comment by moksha — November 5, 2008 @ 11:30 pm
I was so torn today. Happy about Obama but so, so sad about Prop 8. I wish all my friends who voted and worked for Prop 8 would have to meet my gay married couple friends and explain to them personally why they did what they did. Explain to them how it is better for their long term relationships that were finally officially committed are now in serious risk of being nullified.
I want them to sit down with them for dinner and hear about their weddings and their honeymoons. I want them to hear us laugh when we compare newleywed stories. I want them to see a marriage destroyed and know they are part of it.
Comment by In Cal — November 5, 2008 @ 11:47 pm
I read these comments on my flight today. Every one of them. I appreciate everyone chiming in.
Nate- I am in your boat. I hear you, I am in my mid-twenties, a gay woman who just spent the past two weeks in Utah. Being around my family so much, this topic came up at the dinner table, in emails from aunts and uncles, and in the paper.
When my parents brought up they were crossing their fingers hoping it would pass, I bit my tongue. When my father said it was a moral issue, not a political issue and that is why being against gay marriage was right, I bit my tongue. When my aunt said there needs to be more done to get dissenters that are anti-prop 8 removed from the church, I bit my tongue.
I am sick about all of this but I am worried if I open my mouth the rage will just explode in the room and destroy these relationships I hold so dear with my family. I know they are not bigots. This is breaking my heart.
I grew up Mormon and still consider myself very close to the church in many ways. I do not understand this. I cannot understand it.
Maybe that is why I have been biting my tongue- I am not able to process it and am too tired to cry, cajole or convince.
God is love, and this is not love. This is dividing all kinds of families.
Comment by lemon drop — November 5, 2008 @ 11:56 pm
I haven’t had a strong testimony for years. I stayed, because staying officially associated but trying to keep my distance was easier on me and my family life than resigning would be. And well…what if I were wrong and the leadership were right? What about the consequences? What about that off chance that I messed up and left the lord’s church?
In my sadness today, which was just a culmination of sadness which has been building since my Church got active in this cause with far more vigor than I’ve ever seen them attempt to defend a person’s rights, I realized the only thing that could give me any peace or relief is to disassociate myself from this institution. It’s the first time the idea of resignation sounded good, instead of like more pain than I already felt. I’ll sit on it until I’m absolutely certain. But right now, I can’t imagine staying in this church…
If I abandon it, does it help them or help the church get better? I don’t know. But my staying here hasn’t helped or improved anything either. And it certainly hasn’t helped my life become more joyous. Sometimes I feel like I’m a loving and caring person in spite of my relationship with the LDS church.
I don’t know how it got so ugly and how I got so bitter. But it happened. Gradually. And it seems irreparable at this point. Not only that, but I’m not even sure that I’d want to repair it any more. My path to happiness and a good relationship with God seem to point me directly away from the church. And I feel like I’m being called to get away as quickly as possible. It seems like I’m ready to have faith at last, and not in the way most members speak of it. In this case, I’m finally getting the faith in my own judgment, and the faith that I have a solid spiritual compass in my own heart, and faith in my ability to make decisions on my own and faith enough to stop letting fear guide me.
I’m sorry if this sounds like blasphemy or it’s offensive to any of you. I have been bottling it all up for too long and I’ve been a wreck the past day or so…I will likely regret the post in the morning. But to end on a positive note, I must say I love this website. I don’t post often. But I read it all. The perma-bloggers here, and many of the commenters (chandelle, mikeinweho) are my heroes…
Comment by Not good enough — November 5, 2008 @ 11:58 pm
I truly appreciate the post. I have read many of the comments but had a hard time keeping up with all of them. I was one of the infamous 52% that voted yes. But I did not do it lightly and I might even say a bit hesitantly. But if it does bring any of you comfort, it is likley that the propisition will be considred a revision of rights rather than an amendment and the court will decide that it was instituted improperly. Tough times and this was an extremely devisive and emotional decision for many. But lets not forget that last night we Killed Jim Crow for good. We bury that fool come January.
Comment by Sam Sneed — November 6, 2008 @ 12:33 am
Not good enough,
I don’t want to tell you to stay in a religion that no longer brings you joy. I would recommend, however, that if you do leave, keep in touch with those people who were your friends and don’t let their religious affiliation poison your relationship. The world thrives on diversity and people who can have friends with different beliefs.
Lemondrop,
I just had a really good 45 minute discussion with my Mother. I love and respect her, and this morning I was ridiculing her because of my anger. I realized though, that the passage of Prop 8 just means I need to educate people and try to help them understand that I don’t want to take anything away from them. I want them to be completely happy in their life, and to be happy for me in the way that I live my life. That’s not to say that I want them to accept what I do in the context of their religion, other than to say that their religion allows and recognizes that not everyone will follow its teachings.
I’ve decided that the healing comes from within. When we look to ourselves and realize that our differences don’t make us better or worse than one another, we can begin the process. We need to share tears and joy and learn to love one another for the great potential we all have.
I’ve become an atheist since I came out of the closet 5 years ago, but I do believe that if we get to feel a higher power in our lives, it will be the power of love. If we can harness and share that with everyone we meet, maybe someday there will be a world where we can see peace.
I hope this helps for those that are hurting. I realized that instead of bottling the pain, I needed to talk to the people that I felt hurt by. This isn’t to say that I accused them of hurting me, but rather discussed what my concerns and worries are, and how we could work together to find solutions.
Peace!
Nate
Comment by nategiggles — November 6, 2008 @ 12:35 am
Oh, man, nategiggles, am I going to have to have completely innocent crushes on two guy posters here?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 12:41 am
That ones up to you djinn…
Comment by nategiggles — November 6, 2008 @ 12:46 am
Ok I went for a long run and I feel slightly more rational than I did earlier today. To address the original topic of this post - my heart, along with many others aches. How do we heal and how do we forgive? A few people have indicated that they’re leaving the church over this, and others (including myself) are seriously reconsidering our level of activity/commitment to this organization. Having had some time to reflect on this, it’s probably not the most effective way to instigate change within the church. I think that if we want to heal these wounds and bridge the gap between those who are hurt by this campaign and those who (unwittingly and probably with the best of intentions) have wrecked this havoc, the best thing to do is to probably stay active and open an honest dialogue. I find in the church we have a lot of rhetoric and a lot of really bad (again probably well meaning) advice from the top brass, but it’s extremely difficult to TALK about the REALITY of homosexuality at the local level. Many church members take the hardline positions they do because they’ve never really thought about what it is like to be gay - because they don’t know any real gay people personally - because NO ONE EVER TALKS ABOUT IT! I mean when was the last time someone got up in sacrament meeting and spoke honestly and frankly about their personal experience with being gay, or that of their child/sibling/parent? You can’t casually mention your son and his partner in priesthood meeting or ask the Relief Society to serve at your daughter’s wedding to another woman (in Canada or Mass. or California up until today). It’s stigmatized, it’s something to be ashamed of and it’s something that we keep secret in the church.
A family I know who is very active and well respected in my LDS community recently discovered that their son is gay. It was a devastating for them, but they rallied around him and have been fully supportive of him and his life choices. The parents have made it their mandate to reach out to other individuals and families coming to terms with similar situations, and have also made an unusual commitment to not be secretive about their son’s sexual orientation, and have even made a point of letting their leaders and fellow ward members know that their son is gay, and that they love him anyway.
It’s easy to be homophobic when you don’t know any gay people. It’s much harder when the people you’re bashing are also people you know and love, or family members of people you love. It’s hard to gay-bash in a Sunday school class when you know that your comments will hurt people actually there in the room, not just those evil-family-destroyers in W. Hollywood. If anything, this campaign has made me want to talk more about my own gay brother, and share candid experiences of the utter hell he’s been through and how happy he is now that he’s in a committed long term relationship. Mormons are generally good eggs and can usually muster up some compassion for one of their own.
That’s my two-cents.
Comment by Meredith C — November 6, 2008 @ 12:50 am
Janet, I love you! And I love CWC and I felt her anguish in her post. It is so hard to come here and read some of these things and I was asking myself, Why do I do it? Both CWC and I have friends who wonder what the hell we spend so much time here for, why we have invested our hearts in this petty thing when we have no investment in the foundational religion. And more than once throughout this process we’ve been asked, Why are you here if it’s not the faith? That’s a hard question to ask. I have become so invested in what people say and believe here. I’ve made close friends here. But I also walk away almost every day right now smarting so painfully and asking, Why? I hope things get better as Prop. 8 fades away, but man, there is a lot of hurt from which to recover. Whatever reconciliation I had for the church itself, whatever gentle nostalgia and wry peace I’ve acquired since leaving - poof! That’s gone. I’ve seen such ugliness from Prop. 8 and I can’t divorce it from the doctrine the way I could for everything else. I have to recover from this fresh hate in my own heart because I truly believe what I said yesterday or the day before - fighting hate with more hate never works. But there’s definitely a little sprout of hate in there. I think I might just need a little break to renew my affection for this church and its membership, or else just about everything I say is going to sprout from that sprout and be worthless and hurtful. And I hope that, to this point, not everything I’ve said has been worthless and hurtful. I hope that this is all CWC needs, too, because damn! but we atheists are endearing, eh?!
Who could believe that one little tiny ol’ blog in one little scrap of the interwebs universe could become so important? But it is. I sure do love all (okay, I admit, most) of you.
Comment by Chandelle — November 6, 2008 @ 1:12 am
Thanks, Meredith C. I think what you say is at the heart of a lot of my personal concern over the issue - it seems the only time homosexuality is addressed by the leadership in the Church is to 1) oppose gay marriage politically and 2) say that homoerotic acts are a sin, although the inclination toward them is not. We don’t seem to say anything else at all. Where’s the outreach? Why aren’t we actively ministering to our gay brothers and sisters? Surely Christ would have done everything he could to be inclusive of those who are already so marginalized by society.
A lot of my pain comes from the fact that we’re not reaching out and making a space for our gay members in our congregations. But this blog has given me hope that there are enough Mormons out there who want to help create communities of safety and trust for ALL of God’s children.
Comment by Rosamund — November 6, 2008 @ 1:36 am
FWIW,
While I, as one who supported prop 8 and as such, was grateful it passed, it might surprise some to find that I don’t feel like celebrating. I feel tired and torn and sad because of how divisive this has been…to which I understand people will say, “then why take the position you did?” The division was inescapable because we each had to come to what we felt was right on this. And we need to find ways to respect those differences in love.
The pain reflected in this poignant post reflects pain that I believe exists on both ’sides’ of the issue.
Perhaps unlike any other time before, as we have been invited to do in that piece from the Church, we have to all find a way to truly dig deep in our souls to forgive, to move forward. To find healing in the only Source and in the only Way to find it…as Ray said, by trying to be more like Him. And that is hardest when we hurt so much.
I have said it before, and I will say it again. I know it seems impossible that someone who supported prop 8 could care. But I do. I know the pain is real. I believe our leaders know that, too. To me, the piece published today by the Church shows that they acknowledge the pain this has caused, and invite us all to find healing, love, and forgiveness in our pain.
And so, my heart is heavy today for the pain of all of this, for all of us.
There is no in-your-face victory celebration going on in my house or my heart today. Just a lot of somber thoughts. And sorrow for what I think will continue to be a hard journey. I pray we can each face that with faith and forgiveness and charity.
Comment by m&m — November 6, 2008 @ 1:52 am
I’m gonna echo Chandelle and say I semi-worship the permas here too, and some of you others, and just offer thanks for a bit of sanity from time to time in my crazy life in Utah County. CWC, Chandelle, pleez don’t go.
Hugs…YES WE CAN…
Comment by Rich — November 6, 2008 @ 2:20 am
“the piece published today by the Church shows that they acknowledge the pain this has caused”
The church needs to explain why it is publishing this piece after the fact and not when it could have been an instrument in avoiding much of the pain it now wants to ameliorate. Salt Lake seeks to reclaim the moral high ground after victory is secured and there is no longer a need to turn a blind eye to so much ugliness carried out in its name. As a strategy for rehabilitating its reputation that’s a great move. As an example of Christian discipleship it falls short.
Yes, the church too is entitled to forgiveness. But the church too can acknowledge its failures. The first is not contingent on the second–but forgiveness does not require fealty.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 6:45 am
I think “The church” esp. with its totally disingeuous statement about reconciliation and “erroneous information passing” considering their own statements that run the gamut from misleading to out and out lies on their own website and so are not exactly secret, not to mention the ads that were paid for with Mormon money, does not get a pass, does not pass go, and certainly does not get $200.00. But I have already decided that. The actual anguish of so many Church members, however, over their decision, no matter in what direction, is melting my hard, hard heart. Besides, I think they have alienated way more of their youth than they realize. Reaping the whirlwind, boys.
But individual Mormons? I have not yet forgiven nor forgotten the 65% approval rating over prop. 3 in 2004 that stripped same sex couples of all rights. Perhaps, though, they only voted that way because they thought their God wanted them to, and did so against their own personal preferences, which is what I’m reading in at least some of these comments. Much more anguish than gloating. Too sad all around. Too sad to sleep.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 8:37 am
Prop 3 in Utah.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 8:38 am
Discipleship does not mean acceptance of sin. Discipleship means following the words of a prophet even when it is difficult. The church should not have to apologize for bringing us the words of a prophet, even if it causes pain to some. I think someone already said this but “Life is pain, highness. Anyone who says otherwise is selling you something.”
I think the statement published by the church was both appropriate and compassionate.
“We hope that now and in the future all parties involved in this issue will be well informed and act in a spirit of mutual respect and civility toward those with a different position. No one on any side of the question should be vilified, intimidated, harassed or subject to erroneous information.”
Comment by LB — November 6, 2008 @ 8:46 am
70% of African-Americans voted yes on Prop 8. The original Civil Rights group did not see this as a civil rights issue, apparently.
Interesting. We could learn something from them.
Comment by sam — November 6, 2008 @ 8:52 am
“Discipleship does not mean acceptance of sin.”
I’m not sure what sin you are suggesting I’m accepting but I agree.
“The church should not have to apologize for bringing us the words of a prophet, even if it causes pain to some.”
True dat.
“I think the statement published by the church was both appropriate and compassionate.”
This is where we disagree. I don’t think it is compassionate to call for civility after accruing the benefits of uncivil behavior. I don’t think it is appropriate to say no one should be vilified or subject to erroneous information if prior to that statement you engineer the funding of a campaign that traded heavily in misinformation and demonization. It doesn’t work to then say “I didn’t direct the campaign so I bear no responsibility” or “I didn’t directly fund the campaign so I bear no responsibility.” This isn’t a legal question where appropriate corporate forms can shield the actor. It is a moral question and as such each actor must answer for the morality of his actions. If the church seeded an environment in which uncivil behavior blossomed and in which misinformation was the norm, it needs to acknowledge its culpability, not wring its hands that such things exist after the fact.
Now in the grand scheme of things the church’s actions don’t amount to a hill of beans when stacked up against the evils that have been committed throughout history. But that isn’t really the relevant point of comparison–if it were I would have a much easier go when repenting of my own sins.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 9:36 am
Sam (#231),
What could we learn from them? I’m serious in asking.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 9:39 am
As I read the original post and all the comments that followed, there are many that were hard to read. I feel like the intent of the original post isn’t being honored. Some of the comments seem to be justification for the Church’s actions. I don’t think this is the right place for that right now.
I personally came to this thread seeking answers. How am I supposed to accept and forgive people that want to take away rights that I believe I am entitled to under the 14th amendment? How am I supposed to heal the divisions between the community I am a part of and the Church that I attended as a child because that Church doesn’t believe that all men are created equal?
It seems to me like there are some that are here just to rub salt in the wounds. Please, let us remember that although you may have the “moral high ground,” that doesn’t make our pain any less acute.
Comment by nategiggles — November 6, 2008 @ 9:46 am
nategiggles, don’t give away your own moral high ground, or I may be forced to rescind my crush, and you wouldn’t want that to happen.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 9:56 am
Sorry djinn. It’s still early in the morning and I’m a little cranky…
Comment by nategiggles — November 6, 2008 @ 10:03 am
Like Helen Lovejoy on “The Simpsons” we heard the cries of “won’t somebody think of the children?” throughout this campaign. This was the most shameful part of the Yes argument I think. These political terrorists used their children as human shields for their bigotry. This whole debate had NOTHING to do with children, and the fact that they used that card is disgusting.
I don’t have children, but if I did, I would not even think of exploiting them and the fears of parents for political gain.
Comment by Phouchg — November 6, 2008 @ 10:06 am
nategiggle (#234),
You seem to be making the church changing its position as a pre-condition to healing. The trick isn’t to sing kumbaya when everyone agrees but to sing it when you have deep-seated differences. The whole disagree-but-mutual-respect thing.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 10:08 am
Also, this too is the straw that is breaking the camel’s back re: my membership in the church. Looking back to 12 years ago when I was baptized at age 29, I now realize joining the LDS church was probably the worst mistake in my life.
Comment by Phouchg — November 6, 2008 @ 10:09 am
I rarely comment on this blog, but I have to admit I am shocked and dismayed by Mfranti’s anger at people who see the issue differently than her.
I supported Proposition 8. My support for it has nothing to do the fact that the Prophet told us to support it, or because it is an important aspect of our religion (useless reasons to me). I hated that Prop 8 was promoted as “protecting marriage.” (I do NOT think marriage needs to be “protected” from homosexuality). I hated all those stupid pictures of a male and female hands, intertwined. I have many gay friends and family members, and I did not take my vote on this issue lightly. Quite the opposite. I’ve never struggled with an “issue” more than I did this one.
To me it is so much bigger than equal rights. It’s about doing everything possible as a society to promote what is best for future generations, and that includes - to the best of our ability in this imperfect world - providing children with a mother and a father. Period.
I thought long and hard over Prop 8, and even though I supported it, I too feel confusing melancholy. It is not a “joyful” time for me. I am truly saddened that so many people I love dearly are hurt by the outcome of Prop 8. I fully support them and, yes, their homosexual unions. My vote was not cast out of hate, or based on intolerance, nor did it have anything to do with my religion.
Anon said nothing in his/her comment that invited him/her to be called a “chicken shit.” Please stop accusing people of being motivated by hate when you don’t know their motivations. Intelligent, thinking, LOVING people can differ in their views.
That said, I thought this was a beautifully written post, and I appreciated (and yes, can even relate to) your thoughts.
Comment by Sandy — November 6, 2008 @ 10:09 am
“political terrorists” “human shields”
Nothing disgusting about using those terms? Wow. I mean, just wow.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 10:11 am
Phouchg,
Your 239 was written while I was composing my 241. You are obviously in a very emotionally raw place. If it is possible then take this as a withdrawal of 241.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 10:13 am
I am sad for the people whose marriages are in jeopardy because this passed.
I do believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize that people might think differently than I do. That doesn’t mean I hate those people, I just disagree.
I realize that the LDS church put money and time into passing prop 8 and that in some cases members of the leadership engaged in - what I feel is - shameful, deceitful behavior.
I still believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman and I came to this belief on my own. I also read a statement from church leadership that said we should come to a decision on prop 8 (and similar legislation) on our own. Ultimately, our stance on prop 8 is personal. Following the prophet or leadership blindly has never been required, we are always encouraged to seek and pray and come to our own conclusions.
I fully support civil unions and I 100% think it is wrong to fire someone because they are gay, to deny service or health care or adoption. Being gay doesn’t mean you aren’t human or good. I know many gay people who are exceptional. I know many straight people who are too.
For me, personally, I can’t remove religion from marriage. It is, and has been over time, a religious ceremony.
My question is, can we reach a common ground? If civil unions grant all the same privileges as marriage but provide that there is a distinction, is that ok? Because, the relationships ARE different. They involve a different dynamic.
Because I feel that they are different, does that make me intolerant or hateful or a bigot? I don’t think that it does. I don’t love my gay friends any less, I don’t love my Mormon friends any more. I don’t think God loves you any less because you are gay or me any more because I am Mormon.
This post was beautiful, I think at times we all feel like the outsider. I feel like an outsider here, reading these comments. I want to find the bridge between us and build it.
Please, please don’t read my comment as being patronizing. I realize that text cannot convey the emotion of a voice. My comment is meant to be sincere and honest and curious for a way to move forward that includes both sides in the progression.
Comment by Sarah — November 6, 2008 @ 10:15 am
Make that: I appreciate LISA’s post. Beautiful.
Mfranti: moving on as well. Just want to make clear that just because we see the issue differently does not mean we are filled with hate, or rubbing it in anyone’s face.
Comment by Sandy — November 6, 2008 @ 10:16 am
This is in the Church’s new statement about healing and SSM.
“Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”
Woo Hoo! Everybody in Utah, now work to overturn 2004’s Prop. 3 which explicitly disallows these for same sex couples. Takers? Any takers?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 10:18 am
Mathew,
I have some pretty deep-seated beliefs about sexuality, and I guess maybe I am parlaying that the Church needs to change its legal opinion on this issue. I recognize that some people view this as a moral issue and that they feel like taking marriage away from gay people will somehow improve society.
However, I think that Church can still view homosexuality as a sin without making their unions illegal. I feel like this issue has gone from being one about what people believe in church to one about what people believe about legal rights. I think that allowing legal benefits to gay and lesbian couples doesn’t affect how a church stands on the issue and still allows the church to think what they may about those particular people.
Am I making any sense? It’s still really early and I don’t have my thinking cap on yet…
Comment by nategiggles — November 6, 2008 @ 10:19 am
Sarah, I think the problem with finding common ground is that in California, those rights you see as important are already granted. In many other states, such as Utah, they are explicitly disallowed. So, basically, if I see the Mormon church working to help make any of those fine pronouncements come true, then I’ll believe, until then, it’s just talk, with a big ol loophole written into it “so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.”
Besides one argument here. Marriage is so not a religious ceremony, otherwise we would not be passing laws about it. It’s a set of legal contractual rights. How many laws about baptism, say, are on the books?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 10:24 am
Djinn wouldn’t you say that what we have is a disagreement about what marriage is then? I believe it is religious and you don’t. I think therein lies the problem. Which is why I posed my question about a civil union. Is it a requirement that I have to give up my belief about marriage?
I hope, actually, that they get a move on in Utah to grant those rights. I hope the church does make good on it’s statement and that the Utah membership holds them to account for their statement.
Comment by Sarah — November 6, 2008 @ 10:33 am
You may have any opinion you like about marriage, however, you don’t get your own facts. Marriage is a set of contractual rights granted by the Government. Not by your religion.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 10:35 am
I don’t wish to ignore the sweet spirit of compassion in Lisa’s original post- but I really am too sad to write a coherent comment…and even sadder that any Christian could actually say this gives them any joy… the church of families, destroying families.
Comment by Kimberly — November 6, 2008 @ 10:39 am
I have written and deleted many replies Djinn but no matter how I phrase it, there is no where to go. I want to reach a common ground, it seems there is none so long as my belief is worth less than ‘fact’.
I am feeling that melancholy previously alluded to, the mountain just seems to high to climb.
Comment by Sarah — November 6, 2008 @ 10:44 am
Sarah, are you disputing the fact that when a couple gets married they need to get a license from the Government? And if they were to get divorced they go through the legal system?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 10:47 am
Are you disputing that Proposition 8 is an amendment to the CA. constitution? This is all about governmental rights. Are you disputing that people voted about it? Let’s find common ground here.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 10:48 am
I’m not disputing anything Djinn, I am stating my beliefs and nothing more.
I don’t want to argue anymore.
Comment by Sarah — November 6, 2008 @ 10:49 am
No, I actually want to know where you are coming from. I think what you are saying is that, uh, I don’t really know. You think that the religious aspect of marriage trumps the civil aspect, and so your religious beliefs can be inserted into the civil portion. Is this correct?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 10:57 am
Djinn:
I would be all for starting the anti-Amendment 3 campaign if I believed it would be at all effective in Utah. Unfortunately, past legislative sessions have shown that even when the LDS Church issues a call for compassion and understanding on a topic (i.e. immigration, abortion, liquor laws, etc.) the “doughy white guys” usually err on Gayle Ruzicka’s side and go overboard. But, hey, let’s try it anyway!
Comment by Eris — November 6, 2008 @ 11:02 am
So, I’d just like to throw out the idea that on the subject of marriage, in the USA, the state and church have been intertwined. churches are allowed to provide a ceremony that is not only religious in nature, but also a legal proceeding. However, when a person gets divorced, the two proceedings are separate. I think that because of this, churches feel they have an interest in the institution of marriage.
Any ideas on how to distinguish the two?
Btw, I never did comment on how beautiful I thought Lisa’s post was. I really did appreciate it.
And Djinn, if you want help organizing something like that in Utah, I am up for it.
Nate
Comment by nategiggles — November 6, 2008 @ 11:02 am
re: 240
Sandy, I just want to point out what I see as the problem with your reasoning because believe you and other kind-hearted people have been sold a bill of goods with tragic consequences.
The passage of Prop 8 will never cause one more child to be raised by a mother and father than would otherwise have been. Will there be less gay couples in California now? No. Will they adopt less children now? No. (Virtually none of whom would ever find a traditional home…they would just languish in foster care or overseas orphanages). Will Prop 8 reverse social trends conservatives dislike? No. Will Prop 8 protect religious liberties in the long-run? No. Will divorce rates decline? No.
The passage of Prop 8 does nothing but cause untold emotional devastation to families who finally realized a dream of being married. It also ensures that a terrible, divisive political battle will continue for another decade or two. At its core, there is nothing but a cold disdain for homosexuality and a desire to push back against the gay community however possible.
I wish you could have been with me as I watched thousands upon thousands of protesters flow down the street in West Hollywood last night. It was beautiful, especially when I saw how young most of them were and how many of them appeared to be heterosexuals.
Comment by MikeInWeHo — November 6, 2008 @ 11:03 am
I think it’s really sad that some people are pointing to African-American support of Prop. 8 as some definitive boundary preventing gay marriage from being a human right. Some female suffragists didn’t support equal rights for blacks. Some black people didn’t support voting rights for women. Some Mexicans are horribly prejudiced of black people. Some gay people are very hateful of women. And some black people interpret their Christianity as designing an opposition to equal treatment for gays. Nobody has a monopoly on this sort of dichotomy, and oppressed minorities don’t hold the rights to decide what constitutes a “real” civil or human rights issue for someone else.
Comment by Chandelle — November 6, 2008 @ 11:05 am
Don’t run away Sarah. I clearly have a problem with tone writing on this board. I actually want to understand what you mean by Marriage being religious; I’m guessing, however that not all religions get their definition of marriage under your “religious” umbrella. For example, well, should muslims get three wives, as is allowed in their religion?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 11:07 am
nategiggles,
You aren’t making a ton of sense, but I’ll engage (I’m like a stray dog with no owner in that sense).
First, pivoting off your post, I’m interested in your thoughts as to which you view as the more correct of the following two statements and why:
(1) Some people feel like taking marriage away from gay people will somehow improve society.
(2) Some people feel like making marriage available to gay people will somehow improve society.
Second, since you chose to use the term “unions” rather than “marriage” I’m curious to hear your thoughts on the differences between civil unions and marriages. Specifically I’m interested if there is a particular bundle of legal benefits you are concerned about or if being placed on the same social footing by having a union recognized as a “marriage” is also necessary.
Third, I agree that one side of this debate portrays it as a question of conscience/freedom of religion and the other as a question of civil rights. Assuming that there is honest disagreement and very large parts of the population take different views, what do you think is the best vehicle for determining which is right?
In the interest of full-disclosure I will state that I have a preference for SSM, but I don’t think my personal opinion should count for much in determining this sort of question. Further I have a strong preference for having the question resolved through the democratic process rather than the judicial.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 11:07 am
Oh, and Sarah, I appreciate your comment about the problematic nature of 2004’s prop 3.
However (doesn’t she ever give up?) I guess, aside from parsing out the governmental/religious nature of marriage, do you see the problem with defining it religiously? Different religions have different traditions, and only one gets to win.
Catholics, no divorce. Islam, three wives, many and diverse churces, no gay marriage. Other churches already have gay marriages, however, they are not recognized by THE STATE.
This is why there are only civil unions in many parts of Europe. They got tired of, explicitly, I believe, the “no divorce” aspect of Catholicism.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 11:17 am
If you truly seek to understand my viewpoint then I will reply.
I think that the great divide here comes down to the question: Just what is marriage?
Prop 8 sought to define marriage as between a man and a woman. By supporting prop 8 the LDS church is clearly giving up any claim they might have should they want to make polygamy legal again - which they won’t.
I believe, for myself, that marriage is not just a contract. I believe that marriage involves more than just 2 people, that it involves God and God’s law. I was married civilly before I was married in the LDS Temple, but I still made marriage covenants before God when I was married.
I don’t think that my religious beliefs trump the civil portion of marriage. I guess what makes this discussion difficult from the standpoint of common ground is that your belief that gay marriage is a question of rights, and not religious, makes my argument that it is religious and not just a question of rights appear invalid.
But its not invalid to me. Just as you feel my beliefs shouldn’t be law, I feel that your beliefs shouldn’t be law either. Does that make sense?
I’m trying hard, really hard, not to be divisive and argumentative, only to state my side. Please return the courtesy.
Comment by Sarah — November 6, 2008 @ 11:25 am
Mathew,
In response to your post, I think that your 2nd statement is the one I more strongly agree with. I say that because of things like MikeInWeHo’s comments in #258. I think that some parts of society believe that if they ignore gay people and don’t give them rights, they will somehow go away and society will improve. I, however, think this is untrue.
I used the term unions because I like to use synonyms and I wasn’t thinking about it in particular at the time, not because I actually meant anything by using a separate term. I do think that the term marriage as opposed to union, does afford more benefits to those involved. The term marriage conveys greater respect among all societies than the term civil union or domestic partnership, and marriage is more easily transferred between jurisdictions.
I don’t believe that any branch other than the judiciary at this point will allow for these rights. I say that because only the judicial branch is not beholden to the majority, and at this point in time, the majority still seems to view homosexuality as an aberration and something to hide away. The only thing I can think of is maybe we should appoint an independent legal commission to determine what the effects of the SSM are on religions and what effects withholding those benefits may have on gay couples. Whichever group is determined to have a greater benefit to society in regard to their argument should be allowed to legislate their view in the form of statute to be reviewed by commission again in a period of 5 years. I believe this is a social issue, and will eventually subside, although it may be many years before it does.
Last night I was talking with my Mother about marriage. She mentioned that she doesn’t understand why people would want to have an interracial marriage because it just makes it harder to get by in society. She also said this in respect to interfaith marriages. Maybe people just need to understand that although it is harder for gay people to get by, there will still be gay people that do, even given the difficulties.
I think at this point, I am just rambling…
Nate
Comment by nategiggles — November 6, 2008 @ 11:32 am
So is your point that you should be able to vote for your personal Mormon marriage beliefs? OK. Yes. There was the amendment, on the ballot, and I fully support your right to vote for it.
If the majority decides that gay marriage is correct, as will probably happen at some future point in CA just a few years down the road, what then?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 11:34 am
Although I visit this site on a fairly regular basis, I don’t often comment. I don’t often personally agree with all the comments and posts, but I have come to recognize the value of various opinions and viewpoints. With the national election and various local issues on the ballots, people have become somewhat heated in their arguments. Up to now, I have appreciated how people have attempted to somewhat civilly express their views and persuade others to, at minimum, understand if not completely convert to another viewpoint.
After reading a heartfelt post about the very real pain, confusion, and loss many people are experiencing, regardless of personal standing on Prop 8, I was shocked at the level of hatred and vitriol expressed here both in general and specifically aimed at individual commentators.
It is obvious that not all on this site are Mormon, but as one, I agreed to mourn with those who mourn, and give what comfort I can to those in need of comfort. And so, for whatever it is worth, to the many thousands of God’s children who are in need of comfort and solace, who are experiencing heartache, pain, confusion, discrimination, anger, hatred, loss, and more that words cannot express, I offer all that I have to give, my thoughts, my prayers, and my willingness to mourn together.
Comment by June — November 6, 2008 @ 11:42 am
#265 djinn,
Then there will be a lot of people telling you that you are anti- the sanctity of marriage.
Would they be wrong?
Comment by nasamomdele — November 6, 2008 @ 11:43 am
Then that’s what happens. That is how this country works.
Believe it or not, I’m ok with that. I am so grateful to live in a country where anything is possible, even if I don’t agree with the anything.
I know what I believe in. I know what I stand up for. I know when I fall short of walking the walk, fairly often, but I still get back up and keep trying. I change my mind, I evolve in my beliefs, I accept when I’m defeated and I move forward the best I can. After all, I didn’t vote for Obama (or McCain, I voted Ron Paul) but when he takes office I will be proud to call him my president.
I won’t say “the prophet told me to do XYZ and so I’m going to do XYZ” because Heavenly Father has never asked us to. He tells us to look and search and pray. And as I’ve said before, the members of the church that came to the decision against prop 8 after prayer and heart searching have my support. Fully.
For myself - I will pray about it, search my heart, search the scriptures and come to a decision for MYSELF because when it does come time to be accountable for my actions saying ‘the prophet told me so’ will mean nothing.
Comment by Sarah — November 6, 2008 @ 11:48 am
It seems to me that two different concepts are being discussed as one and the same.
The first is the set of rights granted by the government when a couple is married.
The second is the blessing given by a religion to a couple when they are married religiously.
The sanctity of marriage is in the second group, and is not affected by any given set of rights passed out by the state. So, no, I disagree. Respectfully.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 11:50 am
Djinn, judging by your comment in #249 that marriage is contractual and government-provided, I would say you are not on board with the sanctity of marriage.
I can respect that. Can you respect that I and others believe:
1. That marriage is ordained of God?
2. That it is religious and was religious before it was civil?
3. That marriage is recognized by government for the sole purposes of rights of law of that particular government? Government makes no claims to recognize love or commitment or attraction.
Comment by nasamomdele — November 6, 2008 @ 11:50 am
Sarah, I really appreciated your comments, all apologies for my too-harsh tone. I was sincere in asking for your opinion. You sound like a wonderful person who has agonized over this decision, and has come to it sincerely and with nothing but good will in your heart; which I understand, and I am sorry if I gave offense. I will try to sound kinder in my posts in the future, if I just don’t give up and leave, which I am beginning to think that I should do.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 11:54 am
Mike,
Young heterosexuals? Not sure what your point is, but ok.
I hesitated to comment because I didn’t want to get into a battle over this issue, and I knew someone would come back with the same comments that you made about the effects of Prop 8. I’ll expand on my thoughts, but then I’m signing off. Because people are going to get fired up. And that wasn’t my intent in commenting (which is why my general policy is: no commenting). I am just so sick of being attacked for my views which are not hate-based, as much as everyone would like them to be.
My vote for Prop 8 was not based in any way on a cold disdain for homosexuality (though I can’t speak for others). I think children are entitled to a mother and a father. This is due to personal experiences I have had and witnessed in my life, and I could not feel more strongly about it.
I may be one of the few who thinks we have it all ass backwards. (Get ready to rage) I have a problem with gay (or single) people adopting. Let me add a caveat: that’s in theory. I know they are great parents. I know they can raise happy, successful children. I wish I could provide every person with what they want, need, and are entitled to in life. I wish I had the answers to solve the problems we face, especially so many abused and unloved children. I realize that clinging to (what I consider to be) an ideal is not realistic in the world we live in. There are crappy mothers, crappy fathers. It’s better to be loved by 2 mothers or 1 dad than to live out life in an orphanage. I get all that, of course I do. But I don’t think that justifies taking measures to promote the exception as the rule, measures that would take the “non-ideal” and make it just as acceptable an option (I’m having a very difficult time finding the right words, hopefully my point comes through). I think we owe future generations more than that.
I hope this doesn’t come across as hating. It is not something I take lightly, and it has very little (for me) to do with homosexuality. I know you, I know you’re a good father, I know you’re a good man. ANd I know you’re much more intelligent than I am. I’m not here to go the rounds or try and force everyone into seeing things my way. I understand the divisiveness over this issue.
I only commented in the first place to make the point that (at least some of) those who voted for Prop 8 did not do it out of hate, and it frustrates me when it is reduced to perceived homophobia. It’s so much more complicated than that. For me, anyway.
Anyway, I’m more of a lover than a fighter. I don’t want to fight anymore. I’m so very tired of all the fighting.
Comment by Sandy — November 6, 2008 @ 12:01 pm
Nategiggles,
I agree this is more a case of “making available” than “taking away.” It is an important distinction.
Much as I enjoy reading MikeInWeHo, there are several statements in his #258 that are demonstrably false and several others which he has no means of knowing or proving.
I’m disturbed by your readiness to turn to the judicial branch to achieve what you believe cannot be achieved pursuing other avenues. Two times now Californians have gone to the polls and indicated their preference that marriage be defined as between a man and woman. After the judiciary nullified their democractic preference the first time Californians voted to ensure their preferences were not voided a second time by changing the Constitution. If you are making a claim that the judiciary should now look beyond that document to some other authority so that it might again ignore the will of the people you must grapple with the fact that others feel equally strong about the issue and believe equally fervently that any higher source of law supports their claim. At a certain point you have to accept that most people don’t agree with you and then work to change their minds. If I had to bet it is a change that will come to CA in the next decade. But pursuing judicial nullification of the majority will is, I think, a massive strategic error for the gay rights movement–they are better served playing the trammpled-upon minority than bullying idealogues. Pursuing judicial nullification also sends a message that the church may be correct to worry about its own constitutionally protected rights.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 12:01 pm
I’m sorry nasamomdele, I don’t understand your point. I really am at a loss here. The Government does provide a “bundle of sticks”–a set of things that happen when a couple gets married. This is outside of any religious tradition. It doesn’t matter what religion you are, the government still provides the same set of rights to everyone that gets married. Do we agree at least on this point?
Isn’t this by what you mean by your point 3? “3. That marriage is recognized by government for the sole purposes of rights of law of that particular government? Government makes no claims to recognize love or commitment or attraction.”
If government does just provide rights of law, then the sanctity aspect, the love, the commitment, the attraction aspect are outside of the governmental role. I do believe we agree.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 12:03 pm
I haven’t left yet, promise to self, leave. Sandy, to pare down your post to its essentials, are you saying that you think that single parents and gay couples should not be allowed to adopt?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 12:07 pm
Djinn,
In theory, yes. In reality, no. That’s the best I can offer right now. (And yes, that would exclude me from being able to adopt). Gotta run, but don’t think I’ll be signing back in anyway.
Comment by Sandy — November 6, 2008 @ 12:18 pm
Oh, and Sarah, it turns out you and I agree too.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
Which post did that, Chandelle? Are you certain that you’ve not misconstrued the argument? You may be projecting, since if Blacks and Latinos supported Prop-8, I have a hard time believing that you’d not be arguing this was evidence that it was a civil right. Nevertheless, I congradulate you on a marvelous counterargument against an argument that no one made.
The relevance of blacks and Latinos supporting Prop8 isn’t that victims of civil rights violations should be treated as moral authority to determine what a civil right is. The relevance is that these are groups that have both suffered government attacks on the integrity of their families. Black families were systematically broken up under Slavery, under Jim Crow, and now through a collision of economics and government policy where a man can’t adequately support his family and the family can’t get welfare if he stays with them. Latino families, particularly Mexicans, know what it means to have their families separated indefinitely because INS is playing sadistic games like “come back to Juarez next year and maybe we’ll process your paperwork then.” In other words, they see what it does to kids and the community when children don’t have their father and their mother. So obviously they would more strongly resist the neutering of marriage.
Comment by Christian — November 6, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
Christian, that was a touching post.
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
Lisa, I don’t know if you will even see this now, but - I get it. I admire you for facing it head on. My preferred method for dealing with the dissonance is to pretend it isn’t happening. If I don’t think about it, don’t look too closely at it - I don’t have to hurt over it.
Because I can’t make it make sense either. I know what I SHOULD believe, according to our leaders, but it’s not the same as what my heart tells me, or my spirit for that matter (on those rare days when I actually find the wherewithall to pray about it). I can’t see how this will be, in fifty years, anything that we look back on as a church with anything but regret
Comment by Sue — November 6, 2008 @ 12:41 pm
I congradulate you on a marvelous counterargument against an argument that no one made.
Damn Christian, you really are an asshole, aren’t you?
sam said:
70% of African-Americans voted yes on Prop 8. The original Civil Rights group did not see this as a civil rights issue, apparently.
Interesting. We could learn something from them.
You may be projecting, since if Blacks and Latinos supported Prop-8, I have a hard time believing that you’d not be arguing this was evidence that it was a civil right.
You are wrong. Whether or not blacks or Hispanics or women or Japanese or polygamists or Muslims or the disabled supported Prop. 8 is of absolutely no consequence to me. Oppressed minorities don’t hold the bottom line on what’s good or right.
By the way, since you’ve done it more than once now, “congratulate” is spelled with a T, not a D.
Comment by Chandelle — November 6, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
Sorry, italicizing made that unclear. sam’s comment was:
70% of African-Americans voted yes on Prop 8. The original Civil Rights group did not see this as a civil rights issue, apparently.
Interesting. We could learn something from them.
Then I responded to Christian’s comment:
You may be projecting, since if Blacks and Latinos supported Prop-8, I have a hard time believing that you’d not be arguing this was evidence that it was a civil right.
And I won’t be responding to you again.
Comment by Chandelle — November 6, 2008 @ 12:52 pm
I think that it’s ruder to make a straw man argument than to point out that someone else has made one, Chandelle. But thank you for correcting my error and showing me that someone really had made that argument. But please cut out the juvenile namecalling and passive aggression. I’ve seen you do better than this.
Comment by Christian — November 6, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
273: After the judiciary nullified their democractic preference the first time Californians voted to ensure their preferences were not voided a second time by changing the Constitution.
Yes, but consider that since the Supreme Court had already decided that the wording of Prop 22 (identical to the wording of Prop
was unconstitutional, what on Earth would lead you to believe that forcing unconstitutional language into the constitution could ever be a rational thing to do?
If somebody is going to get a kidney transplant, they have to make sure that the body receiving the new kidney isn’t going to reject it because it’s not a compatible match with the body of the person receiving it. If Prop 8 is eventually invalidated, it’s roughly the same kind of thing: the wording is just plain incompatible with the “equal protection” clause of the constitution, and it simply has to go. Don’t blame “activist judges” when they’re simply doing their job and rejecting a transplanted organ (that really did belong in the family law code, if it belonged anywhere, IMO) that will kill the patient if it’s not rejected.
Prop 8 was not an astute political move. It wasn’t well thought out, and now that it’s been added to the constitution (temporarily, IMO), nobody is even sure what it means or how it affects those already married as same-sex partners. This was simply not done well, at all. It deserves to be thrown out.
Comment by Mark N. — November 6, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
Correction: the sentence above with smiley in it should read:
… (identical to the wording of Prop eight) …
Comment by Mark N. — November 6, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
#232 I agree. I think the church leaders used the general California membership to be the bulldogs. Here (in California) the members have to live directly with the consequences of their behavior …in the church office buildings in Salt Lake, not so much. I am really upset with the leadership over this whole mess, but I’m not as angry as I was yesterday. I’ve read that some gay organizations have lawyered-up, so it’s not over yet: Never Give Up…Never Surrender!
Comment by newbie — November 6, 2008 @ 1:59 pm
Mark N.,
Is it safe to assume you aren’t a lawyer? The specific controls the general. Thus specific language defining marriage will not be overturned due to the general language of equal protection.
Why are we so willing to throw democracy and the rule of law under the bus to achieve desired ends. As I said above, process matters. Minorities, whether they be religious or sexual, should care so deeply about process that they are willing to lose in the courts or the ballot box time and again if only to preserve the wins they have already acculated–and will accumulate.
Comment by Mathew — November 6, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
#249 djinn, thank you for being intelligent, clear-headed, and to-the-point!
Comment by newbie — November 6, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
You might want to go check the Supreme Court caselaw on that proposition, counselor. The very case line that establish marriage as a fundamental right, do so in part because marriage is a system of rights that pre-dates our government system. Government has a fundamental duty to secure those rights, but it does not “grant” them in the first place.
The same caselaw establishes explicitly that while marriage is implemented by contract, that Marriage itself is more than a contract.
Comment by Christian — November 6, 2008 @ 2:15 pm
Djinn (#245)- I’m with you. I was living in Utah in 2004 and was shocked at the language of that amendment - it seemed a no-brainer to me to vote against it. About prop 8 - I keep thinking when I see all of the outpourings of feeling here at fMh that even though prop 8 passed (FWIW I’m now in Cali and I voted against it) - maybe the active Mormons here who are troubled about this can use all of this discussion to create positive change at the local level in our congregations - we can start talking more openly about tolerance and love and inclusion.
Comment by Rosamund — November 6, 2008 @ 2:24 pm
The government can deny those rights to groups of people i,.e., interracial couples then, gay couples now. What’s the opposite of deny?
Comment by djinn — November 6, 2008 @ 2:30 pm
Djin, you’ve skirted the question of what “rights” are being denied to same sex couples. “Right to marry”? That’s not on point since the marriage that the supreme court acknowledged as fundamental was the union of man and woman for life. If you wish to argue that a male male couple has a fundamental right to a union of man and woman for life, that’s not necessarily as absurd as it sounds, given the Berdache precedent. But as I undertand, that’s not your argument. But you might try it out, since it might give you an end-run around Prop-8. Since the people have spoken and told the court that it can’t redefine the word “marriage,” why can’t the court just redefine the words “man” and “woman”? Say that one of the males in a gay couple is “constructively female for purposes of marriage.” While I think that’s unwise, it’s not something that I’d amend the constitution to prevent. So long as we don’t neuter the word “marriage,” I’m OK with any other solution that allows the couples to “marry,” including Berdache.
According to Loving, the government could NOT deny those rights to interracial couples, because there was no rational basis for the law. The virginia law had a purely invidious motive.
Here, there is a rational basis for the law, i.e. to promote a system that make it more likely that children will be raised with a father and mother in a stable home. So the whole interracial couples analogy does not apply.
Comment by Christian — November 6, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
I feel sad as I read these comments. It seems like so many are blaming the church for this decision. What is the percentage of mormons in the states that voted for this?I heard it was about 2% or something. Either way, when someone believes in something it is their right to donate money or time to it if they please. There was so much money going to the no on prop 8 stuff as well but the people of California decided- not the Mormon church… the people of California.
I don’t know how I feel about prop 8. I have thought about it a lot. I don’t feel good about saying that someone cannot get married but I honestly don’t know what I would have done if I had been voting on that issue. I haven’t read anything by our church that said to vote yes on it or to donate money. Obviously others have. I do feel that the Church shouldn’t be held accountable for the vote though if they did do those things. The reason is that our church, like many others, classifies homosexuality as a sin. Whether you believe that or not is your decision but they shouldn’t be hated or blamed because they stood up for what they believed in.
I find it hard when people say they are ashamed of being LDS or of our church because of things like this. I’m not saying you don’t have the right to feel that way but I don’t know how you can feel that way if you truly believe in the church. Church members make mistakes, general authorities are not perfect - but the principle here is something that is not an “opinion” of a particular person. This is something that has always been a part of many religions and ours as well.
I am proud of my LDS faith. I am proud that our church gives so much to the world and so many people that are suffering through our humanitarian effort. How does something like this trump all of that and make it into a church to be ashamed of.
Like I said, I am not 100% sure what I would have done if I had to vote on this but if the church came out and said you must vote this way on this issue I would. I would be surprised if they ever did anything like that but if I believe in the church and have sustained my prophet then I will have faith that they know a reason that maybe I don’t.
Again, I don’t expect people to feel this way and I do feel bad about people’s sad feelings. I am not joyful over this. I feel , though, that bashing the church and that commercial that was made , are going over a line. You shouldn’t blame someone for standing up for their beliefs just like I wouldn’t blame someone that was gay for protesting.
If you are willing to leave the church over this you probably don’t really believe in it. I in no way encourage anyone to distance themselves from the church as I believe in it with all of my heart and have seen for myself what happiness can come of living its principles as I spent most of my life inactive before I was ready to give up my pride and have faith in something larger than myself.
I hope I don’t offend or hurt anyone with this post, but I feel like you come to a website with the names feminist mormon housewives expecting some debate and some differences of opinion but you don’t expect full on mormon bashing and comments of leaving the church.
Comment by Cher — November 6, 2008 @ 3:09 pm
Cher-
My thoughts exactly. If the website intends to allow this sort of LDS bashing, perhaps someone should change the name to Feminist Ex-Mormon Housewives. From what I’ve read on this board, that sounds about right.
Comment by LB — November 6, 2008 @ 3:22 pm
Christian, can you explain why this is true:
“a rational basis for the law, i.e. to promote a system that make it more likely that children will be raised with a father and mother in a stable home.”
I don’t see this argument as any more valid than the one used in Loving. You seem to have an excellent grasp on the law and the terms, so I am sincerely asking for some clarification here.
It seems to me that two parents in a committed relationship have stability, regardless of their gender. Why does 1 mom + 1 dad = good but 1 mom + 1 mom = bad in the eyes of the law?
Comment by Eris — November 6, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
#293: The percentage of Mormons who voted is not the only issue in Prop 8. Polls showed a sharp increase in support for the measure after leaders gave the directive from the pulpit for LDS members to give money and time. LDS involvement has been listed as one of the most prominent reasons the measure passed, if not the most. Mormons played a key role in convincing the other 98% of those who voted “yes.”
#294: You obviously haven’t read very much on this board. Try looking at all the posts and the intentions and feelings behind them before you start suggesting new names. We have all types of discussion and actually invite others to comment, thus providing diversity and insight. There are lots of Mormons here who have found kindred spirits. Please don’t judge us for not fitting your tastes.
Comment by Eris — November 6, 2008 @ 3:29 pm
LB in 230- Bravo. Funny, that same line from The Princess Bride occurred to me as well, as I considered my feelings on this tremendously emotional issue.
How I am finding peace about an issue which causes so many pain: Heavenly Father has never asked people to live without pain. He has not chosen to protect people from pain caused by oppression. He did not choose to protect His Son from the pain inflicted upon Him by people who hated Him. He did not choose to protect many of the saints of the early church from pain, persecution and loss. In this He is consistent. He allows us to feel pain for all types of reasons, fair and unfair.
He also consistently asks us to keep His commandments, and to follow His prophets.
Heavenly Father loves His children, gay or straight, conflicted by this issue or not, bigoted or open-minded- He loves us all, and will allow us all to feel pain, and will expect us all to make hard choices and to do the best we can with the understanding and circumstances that we have been given.
It’s gonna be hard- people are gonna be hurt- this is mortality. Let’s do our best to love God and our fellow man. Perhaps this helps no one, but this is how I’ve made peace with this situation.
Comment by meggle — November 6, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
Is it at all possible to return to the topic of this post? You know, how to forgive an institution that is supposed to offer comfort and solace and instead is hurtful?
This affects me personally. I would like to be able to sleep at night, not have tension between me and my pro 8 LDS friends, feel safe at church, etc. Could we discuss some of that and less rehashing of the same old divisive, painful things?
Comment by janescott — November 6, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
Janescott, it seems that to get one we may have to wade through the other. Not interminably of course, but unless we are interested in burying everything without trying to understand the viewpoints then are we really fixing the tension?
I agree it would be nice, though, if we could do this in a nicer way.
Comment by Eris — November 6, 2008 @ 3:39 pm
“How am I supposed to heal the divisions between the community I am a part of and the Church that I attended as a child because that Church doesn’t believe that all men are created equal?”
I’m not sure where you get the idea that the church believes this. Perhaps there are those within the church that feel this way, but no prophet or general authority has ever implied that we are not created equal. In fact, the church teaches exactly the opposite. While we each face seperate challenges, each of us is EQUALLY capable of choosing the good part. To condone the sin in some but not others would be unequal. We are all expected to live the same commandments and follow the same counsel. No one is exempt or above the Lord’s law.
To have compassion on someone, or to mourn with them does not mean that you accept them in their sin. I cannot think of a single time that the Savior did this - and yet no one would ever think to call him a bigot. When He met the woman at the well, his response was not, “I forgive you, because you couldn’t help yourself – that’s just who you are”; it was, “I forgive you,” and, “go your way and sin no more.” This implies that the woman had the capacity not to adulterate; she was more than the choice she had made.
Each of us is equal in our potential to follow Christ. We can love each other in our imperfections without embracing those faults. While many who supported prop. 8 did not ascribe to this CHrist-like attribute , there are many who have tried to do just that. Please do not think that we condemn gay marriage because we do not think you are equal. On the contrary - it is exactly the opposite.
Comment by LB — November 6, 2008 @ 3:39 pm
well, we’re no longer talking about healing and forgiveness, and I don’t think I can moderate any more ssm debate today so I’m going to close this here. Thanks everyone for participating.
Comment by fMhLisa — November 6, 2008 @ 3:52 pm