Dear fMh: Single and Sexual
by WhirlyGirl
I’m a single 27 year old and I’m struggling with the fact that I am a sexual being, but also want to live worthy of the temple. While I’m sure that not every recommend holder has a fully integrated spirituality, nor has fully explored her own sexuality, this is my goal right now, and it’s proving to be VERY difficult, trying to figure out how to honor both sides of myself, when I don’t have a husband to be sexual with, and I’ve grown up hearing that masturbation is a sexual sin and sexual sin is right up there with murder on the scale of ‘worst’ sins.
Anyone have any experience/strength/hope to share with me on this situation, or books or articles that treat this subject? I’m disappointed that neither Sister Dew nor Elder Oak’s wife Wendy Watson (who has written books on marital intimacy but was single past her 40’s) has written about the LDS single female and sexuality!
WhirlyGirl, I am 30, single, and struggle with this problem. Thanks for posing the question.
Comment by tkangaroo — December 9, 2008 @ 8:11 am
Firstly, I don’t know how many people will agree with me on this, but I don’t think all “sexual sin” is the same. For instance, just because masturbation is a sexual thing, it doesn’t rank the same as adultery. I don’t think you need to worry about committing a sin that is up there with murder every time you are tempted to masturbate.
Comment by not the authority — December 9, 2008 @ 8:42 am
Masturbation = Murder?
Sorry, but that’s just crazy talkin’.
Comment by Chino — December 9, 2008 @ 8:47 am
Is this what you’re looking for? (found: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=ed462ce2b446c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=e6737befabc20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hideNav=1)
One example: masturbation is considered by many in the world to be the harmless expression of an instinctive sex drive. Teach your children that the prophets have condemned it as a sin throughout the ages and that they can choose not to do it. Throughout childhood, boys and girls have touched their own genitals frequently to wash and to dress. This is a behavior that usually has the same meaning as keeping one’s feet warm in the winter, enjoying a swim on a hot day, or scratching an itch. We ought to be friendly to our bodies and appreciate the body’s marvelous range of senses. This innocent touching is not the kind of behavior warned against by prophets through the ages. The sin of masturbation occurs when a person stimulates his or her own sex organs for the purpose of sexual arousal. It is a perversion of the body’s passions. When we pervert these passions and intentionally use them for selfish, immoral purposes, we become carnal.
Masturbation is not physically necessary. There is already a way by which the male system relieves excessive spermatic fluid quite regularly through the nocturnal emission or wet dream. Monthly menstrual flow expels the female’s egg and cleanses the womb. For both sexes, physical or emotional tensions can be released by vigorous activity. Thus, in a biological sense, masturbation for either gender is not necessary. In a gospel sense, it is a sin: “Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of His Church regardless of what may have been said by others whose ‘norms’ are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice” (Spencer W. Kimball, Love Versus Lust, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [Provo, 5 Jan. 1965], p. 22).
Shame about the human body, its parts and purposes, is justified only when a person uses it for carnal purposes. Teach your children that they will find joy in their bodies when they use them virtuously after the manner taught by Christ.
Also teach your children that they cannot separate sexual behavior from other aspects of relationships, roles, and values. This is one of the false assumptions of those who promote selfish and indulgent behavior. This is not only wicked, but it negates the true purposes of sexual intimacy, which are to create families and strengthen bonds between husband and wife.
(sorry it’s so long)
Comment by anon — December 9, 2008 @ 8:51 am
there’s too much pressure on a marital partner to fulfill every single moment of pleasure, so i must disagree with anon. Sometimes, physical activity just is not the same. Also, I believe most of the prophets who endorsed this law had more than one wife to keep him *cough* active enough. I’m just sayin’….
with that being said - if a person chooses at little DIY action 12 times a day… something else needs to be addressed. What’s the number? I don’t have one. At some point, ya gotta trust your gut and just know.
it’s an awesome Tuesday out there sisters and brothers - i’m gonna make it great. do the same?
Comment by Mary Magdalene — December 9, 2008 @ 9:08 am
27?
All apologies, but I’m curious: did you also grow up hearing that you necessarily needed to marry an RM?
Comment by Chino — December 9, 2008 @ 9:19 am
I think this is dead wrong. Shame about our bodies is never justified. We should have love for our bodies, guiding our bodies toward behavior that benefits it. Sexual desire is not “carnal.” It is to be embraced and celebrated. If you think masturbation is a sin, you should avoid it because the ensuing guilt might mess up your association with sex as something good. If you don’t think it’s a sin, still make sure, like Mary said, that this is not something you’re doing 12 times a day. I guess.
I firmly believe that 27-year-old women should not be talked to the way 15-year-old girls are talked to about sexuality. I don’t, however, really know what that would look like in a Church context. I know a lot of bishops don’t think masturbation is a big deal (i.e. it probably won’t keep you out of the temple), especially when you’re over a certain age. And making a big deal about it is damaging, if you ask me.
Comment by Minerva — December 9, 2008 @ 9:49 am
“(sorry it’s so long)”
I’m sorry its a load of crap.
Comment by Phouchg — December 9, 2008 @ 10:15 am
My mission president told me that on a “sinful” scale of 1-100 with 1 being least offensive, masturbation ranks in at a 1 or 2.
Just sayin’
Comment by indieguy — December 9, 2008 @ 10:32 am
It’s not easy to give a genuine response to a question like this when I know before typing the first word that it’s going to be greeted by hooting from some and taunts of “crap” from others, but if you want a MORMON response as opposed to a worldly one, here’s one:
You simply will not be able to “fully explore your own sexuality” while you’re single, if you do want to be temple worthy. The two are mutually exclusive. The temple standard isn’t to do whatever you want because you’re 27 and not 15, or because some anonymous or semi-anonymous commenter tells you that something is no sin or that she “firmly believes” something that contradicts priesthood counsel, or because notorious despisers of the gospel and those who practice it call it “crap.”
The temple standard is that all appetites — including sexuality — be kept “within the bounds which the Lord has set.” The temple standard is to practice virtue, cultivate virtue, explore virtue, concentrate on virtue — “unceasingly” — until such time as you can explore and exercise the full range of sexuality within your marriage.
As for masturbation, why would you want to settle for a counterfeit, a substitute, a dead end like that? Sex involves so much more than your body, and when you make it solely about your body, you’re cheating yourself. Anyone who doesn’t believe that should think for a minute about her mate, whether real or only hoped for. Would you be satisfied if his sexuality were satisfied through masturbation and not through union with you? Would you be satisfied if his union with you were nothing more than a physical linking, a kind of masturbating into you rather than lovemaking with you? Whatever is missing from those pictures is what you’re foregoing when you consider masturbation a satisfactory or even acceptable substitute for relations with your husband.
No, it isn’t easy. It isn’t impossible, either. And when you live the temple standard, you never have to apologize or be embarrassed or be ashamed of meeting your own gaze in the mirror. You can even sign your real name to a note like this, knowing it will be mocked in a venue like this, because you know it is true and right and temple worthy.
Comment by Ardis E. Parshall — December 9, 2008 @ 10:39 am
I guess I have just had different priesthood counsel.
And Ardis, I have signed this under my real name.
Comment by Laura Summerhays (Minerva) — December 9, 2008 @ 10:42 am
We’re good friends with a stake high council dude in another state who’s a close colleague of my partner. Since extended overseas travels is at times part of their job, we’ve discussed the implications of that on our respective relationships. Separation from your spouse can be almost as challenging as being single, imo.
This friend and I have had interesting discussions about the morality of masturbation. Two questions I posed to him:
1. Would it be less sinful for him if he only thought about his wife while doing it?
2. What if he had phone sex with his wife? Would that be OK?
FWIW, I think they send each other dirty text messages.
Comment by MikeInWeHo — December 9, 2008 @ 10:46 am
WhirlyGirl,
Masturbation is nothing like murder in a spiritual cost sense;
the long-standing counsel of the LDS Church is to avoid masturbation;
beyond that, your choice whether or not to masturbate is between you, God, and anyone you feel inclined to share it with.
Comment by adam e. — December 9, 2008 @ 10:58 am
Just another reason why we should return to honoring God’s commands in D&C 132 so these sweet single women can find a good husband to marry to righteously explore their sexuality in the bonds of holy matrimony as well as qualify for the blessings of exaltation.
Comment by Joe Smith — December 9, 2008 @ 10:58 am
I want to thank both “anon” and Ardis for sticking up for the Gospel. It’s really odd that we’re rating how bad one sin is against another. The truth is, all sin is an abomination to God and we should steer as far away from it as we can, rather than seeing how close we can get to the edge. WhirlyGirl, of course you are a sexual being. We all are. But what better way is there to show that you are a lovely daughter of God than to reserve that for within the boundaries of eternal matrimony?
Number 6: 27 is not old, so I’m not sure why you’re trying to imply that she’s STILL not married (at 27? No!) because she’s been waiting for an RM. Having been on a mission may not be the best indicator of a worthy husband, but it is usually a sign that they at least learned something in the two years they were gone. I trust that WhirlyGirl will make her own wise marrying decisions in her own good time.
Comment by Michelle Glauser — December 9, 2008 @ 11:01 am
Ardis, #10…
What about husbands and wives masturbating together? Of incorporating masturbation in a very romantic or loving way into their sex life together? I don’t think that’s evil at all. Every piece of church counsel I’ve received is that nothing is off-limits between a husband and wife.
As for masturbation when single. I think it is important that women learn about their bodies on their own a bit if they are ever going to have a healthy sex life with their spouse. Most Mormon men aren’t exactly well-versed in matters of sexual pleasure. If the wife herself can’t tell the husband what she likes, and what gets her going, how on earth is he supposed to know? And how can a woman know that herself without trying it out?
I think we need to stop thinking of sex as evil. It is a biological part of our bodies. Certainly it needs to be controlled, and I will be the first person to tell you that I think people can and should deny themselves of bodily appetites on occasion. But it’s not evil to be acquainted with your body. It’s not evil to be acquainted with pleasure.
Just my two cents….
Comment by Natalie — December 9, 2008 @ 11:04 am
“27-year-old women should not be talked to the way 15-year-old girls are talked to about sexuality.”
Word.
And, Ardis, fwiw, what’s up with your obsession with REAL NAMES ??
You’ve already exposed mine once or twice in years past. Please feel free to do so again if it makes you feel special.
Comment by Chino — December 9, 2008 @ 11:05 am
Yes! Polygamy as an antidote for masturbation! That’s the answer.
And for what it’s worth, Ardis, I didn’t say masturbation is not a sin. I acknowledged that some people think it’s a sin and others may not. Some people think it’s a big deal and others don’t. And when I say “people” I mean “Mormon,” so it’s a little presumptuous to call your response the “Mormon” response. I go to Church every week and hold a calling. I am an active Mormon and I have a different opinion than you. Go figure.
Comment by Laura Summerhays (Minerva) — December 9, 2008 @ 11:08 am
Thanks for the responses so far. My question is really not one of whether masturbation is ok or not; rather,
Does anyone have experience to share on how a single, adult LDS woman honors and explores her sexuality AND spirituality despite not having a spouse?
I’ve spent several years working on knowing myself and integrating all the different aspects of my personality to become as healthy and balanced a person as I can, but I’ve got a lot of confusion on how to go about defining and experiencing myself as a sexual being (which a woman in her late 20s inevitably is, whether married or not). I keep bumping up against some shame around feeling like I may be the only one going through this process, which I sincerely hope is not the case.
Of the few LDS women I’ve ventured to ask personally how they deal with this, all have said something to the effect that they pretty much just ignore the sexual side of themselves. I’m not ok with doing that. I want to know and honor myself, and be prepared to be a full partner in a marriage. My mother, who married at 19, thinks it’s great that I have the opportunity to define my own sexuality and come to a marriage self-assured and knowledgable on who I am, rather than possibly just taking on whatever my eventual husband thinks and wants, like she did.
AND, I don’t want to ‘become carnal’ in this process. I’m looking for feedback on how women, single or married, integrate their spirituality and sexuality, because I know that they are very much linked.
Thanks!
Comment by whirlygirl — December 9, 2008 @ 11:10 am
Gotta love Ardis.
Ardis, I love you.
#4 I am married, but it must be awfully hard to have the only real Church advice for a single sister addressed to youth “ages 12 to 18.” Sexuality is very different for a single woman who is 27– or who is in her 40’s. It would be nice to have some frank and honest conversation directed toward these women, whether it be by the General RS or GA’s. What are some suggestions on how to bank the fires? How important is it not to settle for a non-member or someone who is not temple-worthy when you already in your 30’s? What is your importance in the scheme of things? Are you doomed to an earth life devoid of sex and passion, of rigidly controlling every urge, so that you can go to heaven and be some man’s second wife? These questions are painful. It would be nice to have real, authoritative comfort.
Comment by Bored in Vernal — December 9, 2008 @ 11:10 am
Whirlygirl,
I am 29 and single. Here is how I’ve done it.
Allowed myself to look at men in a sexual way. I am an adult and can (sometimes) control myself.
Tried not to feel agonizing guilt over slip ups. We’ve got the atonement to get us through the difficulty of our position.
Admired my own body and its sexual attributes.
Did things that get me in touch with my body, like yoga or massages.
Talked to my bishops and presented questions to them honestly.
Talked openly about sex with close friends in a respectful way.
Made out with guys.
I have not had a perfect road. It is a struggle and I’ve made dumb choices. But I do like that I have allowed myself to acknowledge that I’m sexual. Because in the matter of 5 minutes someday I will suddenly be expected to be a fully sexual being and there is nothing wrong with having thought and planned for that.
Comment by Laura Summerhays (Minerva) — December 9, 2008 @ 11:17 am
Sexuality is something that comes from within you not at the hands of a husband. You are having healthy, normal feelings that you should address in a way that feels healthy and normal to you. It will be very easy for married people to tell you what to do but that may not be helpful to your individual situation. If YOU decide that certain activities are not in keeping with your goals and desires, then you should not do them. Whatever decision you make, make full peace with it and move on. The whole conflicted-Mormon-guilt is very unattractive.
Comment by StillConfused — December 9, 2008 @ 11:19 am
Re #15: Yeah, I take this personally. I’ve got (Mormon) sisters whose lives are pale shadows of my own because they refuse to view themselves as vibrant attractive beings. 27 is not old but anyone of that age should be grown-up enough to recognize the diminishing returns of playing the martyr. Find someone you’re attracted to and share values with and work out your religious differences along the way. The sky’s not gonna fall just because you’ve found happiness in one area of your life. And until you find that happiness, buck up and don’t be afraid to put the busybodies in your life on notice that you’re a woman.
Comment by Chino — December 9, 2008 @ 11:20 am
whirlygirl,
if you want to explore sexuality purely in a preparation sense, I would say read some good books. LIke Between Husband and Wife and They Were Not Ashamed (a book that has been on my list for a while, but still remains unread by me. Sigh.)
Also, there are lots of talks about sexuality and it’s divine purpose. Chieko Okazaki gave one excellent one. But I can’t find the reference for it right now! it’s not her famous talk on sexual abuse victims, it’s one that describes sexuality as a “feast,” and describes the various shades of love and sexuality… does anyone have a link to it, or a reference?
Comment by sare — December 9, 2008 @ 11:30 am
Ardis, I love you too. I’m sorry you think so poorly of this “venue”–for what it’s worth, I don’t think it is a haven for mocking temple worthy living and commitments. Maybe you could reconsider.
As for masturbation, I think the most problematic thing with it is that it doesn’t fully satisfy when used alone. It seems much more useful and satisfying when used as a means to an end, rather than a stopgap. I think sex of any variety, not just intercourse, was meant to be expressed with another person and you won’t get full enjoyment on your own.
On the other hand, I do think women (and men) need to know what makes them feel good so they can express that within a healthy sexual relationship. And it is true that full sexual expression and temple worthiness can only be combined after marriage. So you’re going to have to set some limits, but I think those are up to you and God. Becoming artificially asexual is not the answer either.
So for being 27, single, and faithful, well, can you explore your sexuality with some good makeout sessions? Set a couple of rules, like the swimsuit rule (no touching (groping) an area that would be covered by a swimsuit), and savor what is currently available to you. You’ll won’t have the need to kiss & makeout for 4 hours straight once you’re legally wed (because by then you can satisfy yourself by taking it further) and you might miss it. I do.
Comment by Artemis — December 9, 2008 @ 11:35 am
Minerva, I love your suggestions.
Comment by Artemis — December 9, 2008 @ 11:38 am
“Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”
A bit of good advice from Chieko Okazaki.
Comment by Chino — December 9, 2008 @ 11:41 am
First off when it comes to mastebation it is part of our natural sex drive . We learn what are bodies really like . I would advise you read more about sexuality and have a better understanding about sexuality and the bodies need for this.
When it comes to my bedroom and life i make the choices not the church..When it comes to the bedroom door the church stops at that point . I do like value the churches point but i take in what i feel is good and throw the rest out
I feel that every person masterbaits at some pint in their lifes as we get older we know what are bodies like and need so enjoy it and love it ..
Comment by bedroom — December 9, 2008 @ 11:43 am
“Artificially asexual.” If that’s your equation to chastity, Artemis, then no, there’s no reason at all to reconsider my opinion of “this venue.” But I’ll save you the trouble to telling me to go elsewhere and just go.
Comment by Ardis E. Parshall — December 9, 2008 @ 11:46 am
The last time I checked, the temple recommend interview does not include a question regarding masturbation. The relevant question, if I can recall its wording is “Do you live the Law of Chastity?” Bishops are instructed not to delve further in their TR interviews.
I suppose the next question is where can one find a definition of the Law of Chastity. Its definition, as part of the Endowment covenants, is a moving target. 40 years ago, that covenant was - paraphrasing - no sexual intercourse with anyone of the opposite sex except my legal and lawful spouse. (I suspect that the legal and lawful spouse language was added sometime shortly after the turn of the previous century to discourage sexual relations with spouses who weren’t “legal and lawful” spouses.) It has since been broadened to include any sexual relations except with a legal and lawful spouse. Whether “sexual relations” includes masturbation is, I suppose, open to discussion. FWIW, and it has been years, when I had access to Volume 1 of the Church Handbook of Instructions, masturbation wasn’t mentioned therein.
Comment by Micah — December 9, 2008 @ 11:48 am
Whirlygirl #19,
Way to try to bring the comments back to your original topic. Unfortunately, mentioning masturbation in a post tends to open a can of worms.
I can’t be much help to you in this area without asking many more questions, because I think that when you and I talk about “exploring sexuality” we may be talking about very different things. I like Minerva #21’s suggestions, however.
Comment by adam e. — December 9, 2008 @ 11:57 am
Talk about a can of worms Micah…. when we start to explore the language - it totally leaves out the idea of male/male sex or female/female sex. Ya think that’s legal?
But I love what Micah has said about the definition being a “moving target” - that seems to be accurate.
I appreciate bedroom’s perspective about leaving some of the dogma at the door. for me … that’s too general, but I applaud the honesty.
and, I have yet to have a TR interview that asks me if I own a butterfly. and that’s all i’m gonna say about that. shame shame on me for even thinking that, eh?
I’m an advocate of knowing one’s body prior to sharing it with another. My dh certainly appreciates that I know that too.
it’s an awesome day out there.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — December 9, 2008 @ 12:04 pm
Wow, this is such a good question and one I have no idea how to answer, But I do love Minerva’s take on it.
Just FYI here is a link to a post we did long while back specifically about masturbation, you can get a wide variety of views on the subject there.
Comment by fMhLisa — December 9, 2008 @ 12:04 pm
And Ardis, while I admire you and your blog very much, and your comments are often lovely and insightful, please stop digging at our blog when you comment here. It’s tiresome, and rude.
Comment by fMhLisa — December 9, 2008 @ 12:06 pm
Ardis, whoa, that’s not what I meant and I’m not sure how you read that from what I wrote. I really am your friend. I think you’re overreacting.
The “artificially asexual” comment was about what others had written of single LDS women ignoring their sexuality. To me that’s artificially asexual. I think one can keep the law of chastity and still acknowledge and express, to a temple appropriate degree, one’s sexuality.
Comment by Artemis — December 9, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
For what it’s worth, the thing I value the very most about my (married) sex life is that we were both novices/virgins when we got married, so we both were able to explore the other’s body and discover what makes them feel the most pleasure…together. The learning together is what made it meaningful to me, rather than saying on our wedding night, “OK, we should do this and this”. I think you have to do this whether you are experienced or not when you have a new sexual partner. I guess what I would like someone to explain to me is (because all people think a little differently) why it is necessary to know from physical experience what makes the parts do what, and for how long, etc. If this is not the small part of the definition of “exploring sexuality” many here are addressing then I sincerely apologize.
Another book that might help with everything you’re looking for is The Act of Marriage. My husband and I read it together before we were married. It explains about everything about sexuality without making it pornographic, which is what you seem to be worried about :). It has a couple of chapters that speak frankly about physical response, etc. and some that talk about other things having to do with sexuality. I would recommend it to anyone, whether (older) single, engaged, or married.
Comment by not the authority — December 9, 2008 @ 12:27 pm
re: #36
I guess what I meant to say in part of that was that as long as you have asked yourself why you feel the pressing need to explore your sexuality (not saying you shouldn’t), and you feel it is justified, then go for it. I am not saying this is the reason, but in case you are worried about getting married and having “bad sex” or not knowing exactly how you’ll react when A plus B happens, I don’t know that that is enough of a reason.
But really, I’m not saying you’re thinking that. I’m just tossing it out there :).
Comment by not the authority — December 9, 2008 @ 12:35 pm
I haven’t read all the responses - but I just have one piece of advice: invest in some toys and enjoy yourself.
Also, I don’t want to be a debbie downer or anything but I really don’t know how you can fully explore your sexuality without another person. There is only so far you can go solo.
I say don’t waste what you got and go have some fun but I am sure no one else would appreciate that advice…
Comment by julie — December 9, 2008 @ 12:53 pm
I second the yoga/massage suggestions to comment #21.
Just being peacefully present in your body with no particular goal (weight loss, speed) in mind can give you a kind of life force that is akin to the passion of an enriching sexual experience such as lovemaking. It incorporates some of the same virtues of lovemaking such as non-judgement, exploration, activity, spontaneity, concentration/attentiveness, peace, and unity, and it can be done alone or with others in safety.
Also, if you ever have the luxury, I suggest swimming naked in the ocean on a deserted beach…it brings you closer to yourself and nature/god in a beautifully honorable and sexual way.
Comment by BigSister — December 9, 2008 @ 1:07 pm
That’s weird, did you serve in Australia? Because I had a MP that told us the same thing, though he gave it a 1 or 2 out of ten.
Comment by jjohnsen — December 9, 2008 @ 1:27 pm
I’m would agree with 37 that there is only so far you can go solo. Masturbation is NOT the same as having sex in a loving, meaningful relationship with your spouse. However, I don’t understand the argument made above (not by julie) that just because it isn’t the real thing, that means that you have to be asexual for potentially your whole life (I’m not saying you are beyond hope of getting married or anything like that. I married a bit older myself)
So maybe masturbation isn’t going to let you fully explore, but at least it is some exploration that can be coupled with things others have said (making out etc) (I don’t mean that they should be literally coupled… it should be a solo actvity)
You can read more of my perspective here, (sorry, I’m male, but I don’t think the differences in this aspect are too different, but you can decide i guess)
Now, looking at my new wife’s perspective. We’ve been married six months now, and she is still really struggling with sex. Laura Brotherson’s book talks about the “good girl syndrome” where good lds women tend to feel guilty about sex. That’s not my wife’s problem. Her issue is that for so many years, she has conditioned herself to be “asexual” that she struggles now not to automatically expel any sexual thoughts from her mind. This has been a cause of great frustration for the both of us. She has so far been unable to acheive sexual release… and I believe that it is largely due to her beliefs that in order to keep the LoC, she had to be an asexual being. That anything to do with sex is wrong. That five minute ceremony was enough for her, cognitively to agree that there is nothing wrong with sex. Talking to her about it, she was even looking forward to it. But the struggle to undo all that conditioning, to allow herself to actually be sexual, not just have sex, has been and is a struggle for the two of us. I think that masturbation could have been a healthy outlet for her, allowing her to live the LoC and still recognize her own sexual nature.
Just my two cents…
Comment by CoriAnton — December 9, 2008 @ 1:33 pm
This piece gives a pretty good history of the development of LDS attitudes about masturbation. Historical Development of New Masturbation Attitudes in Mormon Culture: Silence, Secular Conformity, Counterrevolution, and Emerging Reform. http://www.mormonstudies.net/pdf/mormon_masturbation.pdf
Comment by DavidH — December 9, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
” But the struggle to undo all that conditioning, to allow herself to actually be sexual, not just have sex, has been and is a struggle for the two of us.” (#40). This is such a devastating problem in the LDS community. Not having grown up in an LDS community, I have the advantage of not having been exposed to this indoctrination, but I have met so many people who I doubt will ever be able to have a truly healthy relationship because of these problems.
Comment by StillConfused — December 9, 2008 @ 1:54 pm
I was recently divorced and have always been very sexual. After my husband decided to leave I talked with my Bishop and explained that i was very sexual and talked to him about the toys that I had collected during my marriage. I asked him specifically about masturbation, and the toys. He told me that while the church does not encourage masturbation, it did not generally discourage it especially in single adults. Much like has been stated before, he warned about doing it too much, and explained that it would never really feel the void left in my now non-marriage.
While my sexuality has changed, I still feel very sexual in my own being, and feel close to the spirit as well.
Comment by usuallystaking — December 9, 2008 @ 2:10 pm
re: 39
Nope, I served on the other side of the world in South America.
Comment by indieguy — December 9, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
WhirlyGirl, when I was on my mission we had a saying, which was something about searing your conscience with a hot iron. It could be applied to all sorts of situations. Of course a 27-year old woman is (properly) going to be a sexual being. And you can’t really expect Church leaders to give you much guidance as to how to do that; they’re just not equipped to handle this issue. Some 84-year old guy probably understands next to nothing of what it is like to be a 27-year old woman. So I would say don’t obsess so much over what you’ve been conditioned to regard as sin, sear your conscience with a hot iron, and by all means explore your sexuality in a responsible way.
Comment by Kevin Barney — December 9, 2008 @ 2:19 pm
This is coming from a prude, so take it for what it is worth: In college I had a good (single) friend who seemed fairly obsessed with sex. She had older sisters who “let her in” on some of the secrets, and she wanted to talk about it ALL the time. She went home and got pregnant one summer. I don’t know that there is definitely a correlation between her high level of interest in sex and actually doing it, but I wonder if there might be, so I would tend to be cautious about intentionally exciting or exploring feelings that might be hard to control (like making out - do we ever really stop where we plan to?)
Comment by Stephanie — December 9, 2008 @ 2:19 pm
I was told by a seminary teacher waaay back in junior high school that our bodies and ALL of its functions were given to us by God. YES, we should choose to do things that will feed us spiritually. YES, we should know our bodies and rejoice in them.
That being said, I think you just have to be your own best judge and feel out what you think is right. PRAY ABOUT IT! We can sit here and give you advice till the sun goes down, but at the end of the day, its between you and God.
My personal feelings about masturbation is that its a way for a woman to know what works for her sexualy. If you can’t give yourself sexual pleasure, how are you going to expect your partner to know how!? We are all different, but I think we can all agree that sex is not just for making babies. God has given us these bodies to enjoy, but there are rules!
Yes, there are guidelines for us! BUT one of the most wonderful things about this gospel is that we have no intermediary to go through!!! You can pray to your Heavenly Father yourself and ask for guidance.
Comment by Becca — December 9, 2008 @ 2:30 pm
Wow this is a really great topic and something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately, especially since I’m going through the temple soon.
To address the original topic, I love Minerva’s suggestions. Part of knowing sexuality is being sensual (the term meaning closely tied to the senses, not the untrue scary word that Mormons think means sex). Connecting with your senses is a very important part of life and since healthy sex is about emotions and senses, it’s a natural tie. Here’s what I’ve learned besides what Minerva has listed:
Cooking and good vibe-ing my food is a great release.
Reading a book by Gabriel Garcia Marquez will challenge me emotionally and give me a new view on things.
Talking about sex with my friends enlightens and relieves me - especially when I find out about their views on masturbation and the actual sex.
Laughing with friends is also a great release when the urge to pounce on the very next man I see is about to take me over.
Allow myself to think about what I will do when I get married (but not incredibly frequently).
Now. I’m 23 and single and never had sex and I’m so freaking frustrated sometimes I want to scream. I don’t consider myself completely unfortunate looking, but I have a hard time finding guys to kiss. Plus, I don’t just go around kissing because, and this is specifically FOR ME, I find kissing a sacred act and can’t just have random make out sessions, but believe me, sometimes I wish I would. The point is, kissing is not my solution to release when I’m not dating someone.
Sexuality is really a personal thing… like the gospel and how our relationships are personal with God - crazy, right? Our sexual urges are different, stronger, weaker, more frequent, UNIQUE to us. Why should you feel guilty just because someone doesn’t have the same type of urges you do? You shouldn’t Whilygirl. Think about what makes you tick and explore those ways any way you need to based on your goals for temple worthiness and a relationship with God.
And Ardis, I’ve never noticed your comments before, and I in no way mean this as a personal affront because I think you’ve stimulated (:D) some interesting conversation here. But, my needs are NOT artificial. They are very very real. I have the good sense to know that anything I do for myself - and I will say it because I am not ashamed that I do for myself - will not be the same as the beautiful emotional connectedness that comes with sex between man and woman. Until I have that opportunity, there are situational factors I have to investigate - like that doing for myself not always when I feel like it but when I need it, will help me to stop sexualizing a lot of things. I also have the good sense to know that our bodies are intrinsically linked to our souls and our experience here; our bodies need things. My body (and my soul, to a certain extent) needs sex. And that’s okay, because our bodies are different. Our understandings of worthiness are the same because of doctrine, but our personal implementation may vary.
Sex is a part of life and just because I’m not married doesn’t mean I don’t want to understand those concepts. And, just because I’m not married doesn’t mean I don’t understand how sacred and beautiful sex is.
Comment by Slarue — December 9, 2008 @ 2:31 pm
Will someone please explain this magical “5 minute” ceremonial sexual awakening?
Comment by you lost me — December 9, 2008 @ 2:35 pm
To the original question, I would say that sexuality is a subset of sensuality. With that in mind learning to incorporate sensuality into your life can help you feel satisfied and can help ease the way into really enjoying sexual behaviors when appropriate.
#40 mentioned the trouble that LDS women have with not viewing sex as a sin, but I think the problem goes much deeper than that and is prevalent in our wider culture. Women really aren’t allowed to shamelessly enjoy physical pleasures. Chocolate desserts have dangerous sounding names for a reason. We have ‘guilty’ pleasures. We talk about future regrets for current meals. There are few things in our culture that are more transgressive than a zaftig woman in comfortable, luxuriant, possibly sexy clothes happily and obviously enjoying a rich dessert in public with no guilt in sight. Most people find that mental image revolting, or at best unpleasant– this is absolutely tragic.
I think it would be helpful to ease yourself into the mindset that it is good for you to genuinely enjoy the pleasures your senses can bring you. Enjoy the taste of your food. Bring pleasant smells into your home. Look at beautiful things. Listen to beautiful sounds. Exercise for the strength, power and energy that it brings you- not because you feel like you should, or because you want to have a different body shape. Live in your body not around it.
Comment by Starfoxy — December 9, 2008 @ 2:40 pm
Starfoxy - I really like your comments on sensuality (and Minerva’s suggestions for being more sensual). I think that is a big part of sexuality that can be worked on whether you are single or married.
Comment by Stephanie — December 9, 2008 @ 2:47 pm
The line from the temple which Ardis quoted really struck me when I took out my endowments (keeping appetites within the boundaries the Lord has set) exactly because those boundaries neer seemed clearly set to me. On CES person would tell us BYU students that French kissing was a serious sin and then another one would refer to it as “celestial kissing.” At some point you do have to work out the boundaries between you and God, and that’s a good thing inasmuch as boundaries may, on some level, vary person to person.
But I do think you can be a sexual person while single–and without necessarily masturbating or obsessing about sex. You can notice when your body responds to another person (either with sexual chemistry or even its opposite) and learn to view such responses as God-given, even while keeping how you act upon initial response in check. ANd AMEN to the person who mentioned sexuality being a subset of sensuality. I wish we didn’t talk about sensuality as inherently sexual, as though it were something only married people could focus on. Mindfully noticing how your body responds non-mindfully is wonderful. I think more of us would have good sex lives (if and when that becomes a part of our lives) if we’d worked on being sensual beforehand. You know–really appreciating the way chocolate warms to your tonge and melts; appreciating the bracing cold and how your body’s breathing alters when you come into a warm room filled with a lovely scent. Noticing how different fabrics can inspire different posture, different walks. That stuff isn’t small. It’s huge, and I’d argue that it is intrinsically part of viewing our bodies as holy rather than corrupt.
So amen to what Starfoxy said: live IN your body. And live WITH your body–don’t view it as a shell carting around the real you. If you aren’t comfortable with masturbation (and yeah, there’s plenty of conflicting information from ecclesisatical leaders about it, so I’d say it’s something you wanna talk to God about if you’re ambivalent) don’t do it. Doing something because a bunch of people tell you it’s fine won’t make it fine for you, and maybe it isn’t. That doesn’t mean you can’t have a very sensual life. Sensuality is about being a whole person, not about what you’ll eventually do with another person.
For whatever it’s worth, the initiatory experience at the temple has always made me feel more at peace with my body. (Worked better before they changed it, and I’d have loved the old mikvah tubs even more!).
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 2:56 pm
50: The LDS wedding ceremony is about 5 minutes long. Some LDS take the notion of celibacy before marriage as being an injunction to avoid the whole topic of sex before marriage, but once the ceremony is over and you are actually married, then you’re supposed to be able to embrace sex and sexuality. The point is that the marriage ceremony does not instantly change one’s views and feelings about sex. The sexual awakening is not ceremonial, just the marriage.
Comment by Artemis — December 9, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
I think accepting and recognizing and exploring sexuality are different things. I think you can acknowledge and respect your sexuality without having to explore or feed it.
I agree with Ardis that age doesn’t matter on the standards, and that it isn’t impossible to live them. IMO, the truest way to be true to yourself is to live the standards. And our leaders have talked specifically about not deliberately stirring up the sexual response in any way in ourselves, either by self-stimulation or by engaging in some way with someone else. (That’s different imo from acknowledging one’s sexuality and not being ashamed of it. One can acknowledge it and accept it as a healthy part of one’s self without feeding or encouraging it inappropriately. Accept it, recognize it, hope for a day when you can find someone to share that with…but then channel your energy into healthy, appropriate activities that bring satisfaction in other areas of your life. I like the ideas to create a savor (and share?) a good meal. To exercise, do yoga — to take care of your body well. And I would add service to that list. At some point, too much focus on self (any aspect of self) can be harmful. Think Pres. Uchdorf’s talk on creation and compassion — find ways to be creative and compassionate — get outside your self and body — lose yourself to find yourself.)
BTW, I was single up until I was 27, so I understand a little of how hard it can be. But I think what our culture considers ‘exploring sexuality’ and what the standards are in the Church are different. For a reason.
Comment by m&m — December 9, 2008 @ 3:04 pm
I’d like to also point out that just because you are single, you should not have to compleatly miss-out on sex altogether.
While I agree that sex CAN be more fulfilling with a partner. How can you be cheating yourself by masterbating if you don’t have a sexual partner to begin with!?
Ardis, we ARE advised to be chaste, but last time I checked there are no Mormon nunneries!
I am lucky enough to be married to a man who does fulfill me sexually, but not everyone has that kind of dialogue with their partner if they have that kind of dialogue at all!
I have a dear friend who was married three days after I was, 8 years ago. And until 6 years ago, had never reached orgasm with her partner because she had never masturbated and did not know how to make it happen on her own! How is HE supposed to know if she has no idea! Neither one of them had previous sexual partners, good Mormons right!
I told her to go and get a toy and figure it out by herself. Needless to say, they are now able to have sex that pleases both of them.
Comment by Becca — December 9, 2008 @ 3:05 pm
I have to agree with Ardis on this one. I think that there IS a limit on how much you can explore your sexuality as a single, covenant-making Latter-day Saint. I like the idea of exploring sensuality instead of direct sexuality, I think that is more in line with the guidelines the Lord has set. I don’t have anything to add, just wanted to add another voice to what Ardis is saying…
Comment by Anon on this — December 9, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
Wow, I want very much to read all of the responses but I’m unable to control my patience right now
You are not alone. I, too, think it would be a smart thing for the RS and YW general presidencies to approach this matter. I don’t know why we tend to think women aren’t sexual beings - I know historically this is the attitude, but it’s hardly conducive to a woman’s health.
Sex and sexuality matters very much - and fwiw, I don’t think masturbation is a terrible thing at all. Take it to prayer if you’re comfortable, but I’m with Natalie (#16). Others say they had fun learning with their husbands, but this doesn’t work for everyone. It didn’t work for me.
Maybe if there’s more discussion out there, our leaders will bring it up. I just hope it’s honest. Blind idealism never got anyone anywhere and doesn’t help those who need blunt and respectful honesty the most.
My husband’s aunt died at the age of 50 a single woman, and I always wondered how she dealt with that. My only inclination is that she was a very, VERY busy woman lol.
Comment by LisaJ — December 9, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
er, as far as masturbation being “not a terrible thing at all” of course I think there are boundaries to take with that. and I don’t think it’s great or necessary or advisable for everyone. The same applies to most things.
just wanted to clarify.
Comment by LisaJ — December 9, 2008 @ 3:14 pm
There’s some evidence that masturbation was pretty much a strictly male issue until the beginning of the 20th century.
From a review of the book “Forbidden Technology”
The 19th century saw a great rise in the disease to the point of it being a near epidemic, at least among middle- and upper-class women. This was undoubtedly related to the heavily repressed sexuality of the era as well as to what Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English describe as the masculinization of industrial society (For Her Own Good: 150 Years of the Experts’ Advice to Women. Anchor Books, 1978). In a world in which a reasonably wealthy woman’s role is purely sexual and where sexuality is solely the realm of men, the greatest taboo was the idea that traditional coitus might not in and of itself satisfy the demands of women’s sexual needs…..
As in ancient times, treatment for hysteria consisted generally of manual manipulation of the womb area to provoke a “hysterical crisis” in which the woman convulsed and moaned and was relieved of her tension to the point of even being somnolent. In this way, women’s sexual needs were deemed to be an illness and without ever using the word “orgasm” doctors of the time made a fine living with women patients who returned frequently for treatments. These treatments were so common and were consuming so much of the time of doctors that this actually led to the invention and perfection of the vibrator.
The first vibrators were huge, expensive machines sold only to doctor’s offices (and came with names like “The Chattanooga”). With this modern technology the time to treat a hysterical patient dropped from one hour to ten minutes, allowing the doctor to see many more patients in the same time. Needless to say, the medical establishment was quite enthusiastic……
As the end of the century neared and more and more homes were connected to electricity, the technology of orgasm came into the home in the form of small, inexpensive vibrators. For the first time this technology was in the hands of the women themselves….
Your great grandma had a vibrator on her night stand. Deal with it.
Comment by Not Ophelia — December 9, 2008 @ 3:25 pm
I, too, think it would be a smart thing for the RS and YW general presidencies to approach this matter.
I guess I’m wondering how you think they would ‘approach’ it except to teach that sexuality is real, but must be kept within bounds. (Which they already do!)
I don’t know why we tend to think women aren’t sexual beings
I don’t know why you assert that somehow in the church we think this. I have not ever had the feeling that our leaders don’t understand that women are sexual beings.
Not allowing sexual expression and exploration outside the bonds of marriage is not the same thing as not acknowledging sexuality.
Comment by m&m — December 9, 2008 @ 3:26 pm
I think most of agree with Ardis that there are limits to exploring sexuality before marriage (and, as it happens, afterwards unless you have zero respect for your spouse). People probably just vary in their thinking about where the limits lie. At the risk of redundancy–having already redundated starfoxy’s ideas :)–I’ll say again that those limits might differ per person. Some things = definitely off limits, others maybe, maybe not. I admit I get frustrated sometimes when comments in the sex threads intimate that anyone who doesn’t masturbate is repressed or silly. Frankly, it seems like masturbation could serve as an unhealthy substitute for a fuller exploration of the senses. Certainly it doesn’t have to, but it still COULD. And if someone is uncomfortabe with masturbation, they don’t need to convince themselves it’s necessary for a liberated person. That’s silly. Human bodies react sexually to things without such a direct approach, and learning to appreciate the subtlety is fine thing.
(and no, I’m not condemning the idea that masterbation is OK. I have heard too many people go too far the other direction, equating it with murder or adultery, which is clearly ridiculous. I’d wager that if it is a sin, it’s a pretty small one. I just have little patience for liberalism which mandates certain approaches to sexuality as necessary rather than possible)
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 3:30 pm
Oh dear. I really cannot spell. Apologies.
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 3:31 pm
M&M, I’d love to see YW taught how to appreciate sensuality and the potential of their senses. I doubt it would lead to rampant sexual exploration and would certainly endow our young people with a better regard for their bodies than does exclusive attention to the notion of chastity-as-no-sex-before marriage. I supsect chastity isn’t that shallow and actually concerns a love for our bodies as much as forbidding them to do certain things at certain times. The latter should come from the former. I think if we really instilled the former, the latter would be less of a problem.
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 3:33 pm
NO–unfortunately doctors also fairly performed fairly routine clitorectomies on children in order to stop masterbation, which was thought to cause all sorts of childhood ills. 19th c. was really messed up regarding female sexual drives. Yuck.
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
M&M, I’d love to see YW taught how to appreciate sensuality and the potential of their senses. I doubt it would lead to rampant sexual exploration and would certainly endow our young people with a better regard for their bodies than does exclusive attention to the notion of chastity-as-no-sex-before marriage.
I agree that there is more to good teaching than simply teaching ‘no sex before marriage’ but I don’t think the solution is necessarily to somehow teach them to “appreciate sensuality” (But that could be because I am not sure what you mean by that).
Maybe you can give me an idea of what you are thinking about, though. What would an ‘appreciate sensuality’ lesson/activity for yw look like?
Comment by m&m — December 9, 2008 @ 3:42 pm
I have a very fulfilling sex life. My husband is very attentive and I rarely feel the need to masturbate. However, when I do feel the need/urge I don’t quench it. I like exploring my body on my own in addition to exploring it with my husband. I find it healthy for my psyche and find myself to be less uptight if I have release more often… whether it be self stimulation or stimulation from my spouse. My husband and I are very open about this and don’t judge each other for doing it. It’s natural to want to be aware of how our bodies work/feel. I think the combination has only strengthened our relationship because if I discover new sensations in my body on my own, its exciting for both of us to learn how he can bring me that same sensation. Same goes for him :o) Keeps things exciting and fulfilling for us.
Comment by masturbation = pure awesomeness — December 9, 2008 @ 3:43 pm
#67– yeah, i’ve never understood the argument against masturbation within marriage unless it is employed in order to release sexual tension specifically without the aid of a spouse. Some elder in the MTC gave a diatribe about it once, how it was evil because there would be no procreation. Easiest way to stop that diatribe? “Why elder, you seem to be giving masturbation a great deal of thought lately. Do share your other thoughts on the matter.”
(I am a cruel, cruel woman
).
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
I’d suggest studying up on Luce Irigaray’s philosophies. The best way I can sum her up is to say that she believed that woman’s sexuality is not limited to the singular act of sex. Anything that stimulates pleasure–soft blankets, a warm breeze, a good book, delicious food–is a way for women to express themselves as physical beings with multiple facets to their sexuality.
Though it’s extremely hard to summarize a poststructuralist feminist, so I hope that I didn’t completely butcher anything.
Comment by OpaqueDream — December 9, 2008 @ 4:00 pm
M&M — see my #53, as well as Starfoxy’s previous comments, for a bit of an idea. I’d love to have acitivites which focused on honing our five senses. A chocolate tasting party! (With small quantities of the really good stuff, and comparisons and notes taken. Basically the LDS version of a wine-tasting. In fact, I think this should be a snacker activity.)
Or what about listening to short pieces of music and actually discussing the body’s response to different tempos, instruments, moods, etc? It’s not just our ears which react differently to a Mozart requim v. Mahler’s 5th, or Pink Floyd v. the Beattles. (Probably an inappropriate confession, but the first time I ever recognized my body as being “aroused” it was in response to hearing “Strawberry fields forever.” Weird, but true. And certainly not innappropriate, seeing as how I did not proceed to pounce upon and fornicate with the young man who put it on his stereo for me to listen to.)
Or here’s what I’d LOVELOVELOVE to do: the Hoh rain forest in Washington state, a stone’s throw from where I grew up or, for more widely recognized reference, close to the place the *Twilight* series is set, contains what is supposedly the quiestest place on planet earth. Or “most devoid of human-made noise” anyhow. The excess moss deadens noise, blah blah blah. Some dude wrote a book about it, and there’s a marker on the supposedly quietest spot. I’d love to take a group of YW there and have them sit and practice meditation. Focus on their breathing. Notice that the air has a taste, that quiet is actually extremely loud in its ability to help you hear your own body. And the tiniest of animals. It’s so still there you can try and focus on the “space” between your eyes and the air.
Developing the ability to tune into one’s body and then appreciate how it is affected and effected (different things, quite, especially when a teenager) by the things we touch, hear, smell, taste and see is developing sensuality. It is also, as it happens, developing an appreciation for the amazing bodies God gave us and the endlessly astounding world He gave us to live in with those bodies. Any kiddol–or adult–who really develops atunement to such connections is going to have an easier time finding the spirituality in sex and in not divorcing that spirituality from the FUN of sex. Sex and sexuality will cease to be this seperate, taboo aspect of life. It becomes a part of every day existence. I could be full of hard cheese, but my personal theology holds that this is what God wants us to find in sex–the ability to merge not just with another person, but with the universe. I know it sounds really pretentious, but it isn’t.
And it’s a very helpful, simple, wholesome thing to help our young men and women with. With the extra perk of probably helping any marriages they might enter later on . . . or help them be sexual, fulfilled beings even without marriage. Chaste single people don’t get to enjoy the full spectrum of unification since they can’t have sex with another person, but that doesn’t mean they can’t approach some of the divinity inherent in sensuality.
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
Fascinating discussion. I’m torn between the two sides of this issue, seeing valid points made by both. Ascetisism vs. epicureanism is an age-old tension. Perhaps, with correct principles having been taught (no sexual relations before marriage, complete fidelity to spouse within marriage, thoughts and actions clean before the Lord) we are to govern ourselves. Individual application, as guided by the Spirit (the REAL Spirit, not the guilt-driven stick of a HG that some people try to beat you/themselves with), could help us figure out what level of sexual expression can still allow us to follow the principles.
Perhaps the big M is sin only when it takes us away from thinking and doing the things we ought to do (doing it too frequently, using it instead of seeking social interaction with others, using it accompanied by violent, illegal, degrading or otherwise spiritually-devastating thoughts or paraphernalia, etc.).
I’m married now and in a satisfying sexual relationship (for the most part). If there’s one thing I’ve noticed about my own sexuality over the past seven years of my marriage, its that sexual tension intensifies over time, until a release can occur. I believe that science can back me up on this observation. The time it takes to build up the sexual pressure might differ from one person to the next, but it inevitably does. I think this might be more prevalent among men, but certainly among women as well. If I haven’t had release for a while, I find myself more irritable toward my spouse and children, and less capable of holding my interest on non-sexual topics, especially spiritual topics. I’m not saying that my own personal behavioral weakness are justification for finding a release of sexual tension as much as simply stating that I have observed these subtle changes time and again. If I hadn’t been spending so much time concentrating on not having sexual thoughts before I got married, I would have probably observed the same phenomenon after the “slip-ups” and “accidents” that inevitably occurred.
I guess what I learned from these observations is that perhaps striving for the “ideal” life devoid of carnal sexual urges has taken up a lot of brainpower and time that could possibly have been spent on more beneficial and satisfying thoughts and activities. Had I found release (through masturbation) and moved on rather than let it stew, boil over, subside, then start all over again, I might have actually _increased_ my spirituality. Hard to know; we can’t repeat the past, and speculation about what might have been is an idle pursuit. Cheers!
Comment by Observer — December 9, 2008 @ 4:09 pm
OpaqueDream — Woohoo! Iragaray! Though I did laugh myself silly the first time I read her essay about genitalia. Still, she rocks.
And now I must take a nap.
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 4:09 pm
One more observation (I chose an appropriate handle, didn’t I?
): it seems that fMh goes through cycles about sexual topics as well. FMh averages 11.2 posts per week, but most of these topics aren’t about sexual expression. But once or twice a month… 
Comment by Observer — December 9, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
Observer:
I’d have to agree with you…. That buildup of sexual tension, for me at least, was definitely a distraction, that kept me from doing other, more productive thinking. I found that once I allowed myself that release (while single), rather than it beeing just a slip-up, I was able to increase my spirituality. I was able to read the scriptures in peace, rather than fighting down sexual urges, using scripture study as a tool to that end. Rather, my study became a much more uplifting experience for me.
The other big aspect of it for me, was that I was heavily influenced by the masturbation=sin next to murder/ no unclean thing can dwell with God stuff. So when I allowed myself that release, I was freed from so much guilt for the first time in years. I finally felt like I had a more clear view of myself as God sees me, rather than as one of the most vile sinners on the planet. This helped build my faith in my ability to overcome other shortcomings, and frankly freed up the energy to attempt it. In so doing, I can say that I feel that allowing myself to masturbate (not simply succombing to the urge, but actually when I came to the conclusion that it wasn’t a sin) has made me a better person.
It may not be for everyone… I’d recomend people do as Jesus said, and put the word to the test and see if it comes from above. Masturbation, was for me a great way to explore my sexuality, while keeping me chaste. Good luck to you, WhirlyGirl
Comment by CoriAnton — December 9, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
Honestly….. I just don’t see the big deal in young men/women in exploring their bodies… Finding release etc. I’ve masturbated for years and I don’t consider myself cardinal or anything like that. I find that it has helped me to be more in tuned with my spirituality and feminine awakening… I think the more you suppress it, believing it to be wrong…the more it would make young people over-obsess with it. I think the whole anti-masturbation rules lead some young men and women to marry early just to be able to get release in that way. I’ve seen many marriages end in divorce because they just got married before really getting to know one another…. I could be wrong though :o)
Comment by masturbation = pure awesomeness — December 9, 2008 @ 4:26 pm
Oh! I do believe that people can get nuts with it… like anything else people can over-indulge… become too obsessed with the feeling. Spend all day online looking at “stuff”. I think you can say the same thing about chocolate or anything else that makes you happy…. Does that mean that we should have a mandate on chocolate eating because it you eat to much you can become obese and that can lead to other health problems… I don’t think such things should be so strickly mandated… just my thoughts
Hopfully that makes sense!
Comment by masturbation = pure awesomeness — December 9, 2008 @ 4:31 pm
OK, janet. I suppose some of what is going on is that I think the word ’sensuality’ carries with it some baggage that automatically ties it with sexuality.
But I do get where you are going. I think self-awareness is good and healthy. And so is learning to savor the wonders of life and the world (and our bodies) that God has created. Still, I think this kind of teaching would require some important context and doctrinal foundation to really be effective in the way you are talking about. (Not that I don’t think you could provide that, mind you…just thinking out loud here.)
And I’ll likely sound like a stick-in-the-mud to some, but I think the doctrinal context and understanding about our bodies and the wonder of life and the beauties around us and the purpose of chastity are most important. It’s the whole “True doctrine understood changes behavior” thing that Pres. Packer has taught so often. The times when the real purposes of chastity has clicked for me the most, it hasn’t been about appreciating my body more as a sensory vehicle, it has been about understanding the doctrinal big picture more. About understanding why God has given us these drives (i.e., it’s not for self-gratification or self-awareness or self-anything)
Certainly within that big picture is a place for things like savoring a good meal and the wonders of nature (and a fun and healthy marital sex life in its time and place, and yes, that is something that should be talked about openly esp. by parents), but that big picture is critical to help the connections be made in an appropriate way. (Again, not saying you don’t agree, but just wanted to say it as a general comment. I think our culture is so saturated with sensory pleasure that it’s easy to get this out of perspective and think that sensuality is our main purpose in life. I think teens are highly prone to this kind of behavior and thinking, too.)
In short, I have observed too many people who see life as existing primarily for sensory pleasure and escape and ease. While sensory experiences can be part of the blessing of life, they are not the key purpose of life. Teaching that balance and perspective is no small thing, and no easy thing, imo. Doctrinal context and perspective are critical.
Comment by m&m — December 9, 2008 @ 4:32 pm
Just curious…what do you think the drives are there for?
Actually, we were sent to this earth specifically to get bodies and have sensory experiences we couldn’t have without bodies.
Comment by Laura Summerhays (Minerva) — December 9, 2008 @ 4:39 pm
CoriAnton (#73): It sounds like we had similar struggles in our teenage years. I wonder if its a personality thing? Pure awesomeness sounds like she never had the guilt complex we both did. As an oldest child in a family of 5, I tend to be very perfectionistic, and I was always trying to show a good example to others. This combination of a desire for inner perfection with a drive to put forth to the world that I was a “good” person allowed me to create almost overwhelming expectations for myself, which of course, I never lived up to. Anyone else want to weigh in? Are personality traits a factor in how we approach sexual expression in the Mormon context? If so, is it a major factor or a minor one?
Comment by Observer — December 9, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
#78
I was brought up taught that I should have mucho mucho guilt about masturbation… Raised in a VERY strict Mormon household. I just didn’t feel right about the whole restriction on MY body kind of thing :o)….. I didn’t buy it. But I will admit that I was always the (think outside of the box) type of Mormon when I was growing up. I was almost the death of my parents and Mormon church leaders… Though I was still a very good girl by today’s standards.. didn’t drink/fornicate/smoke/drink coffee… I was a pretty good gal ;o)
Comment by masturbation = pure awesomeness — December 9, 2008 @ 5:02 pm
Just curious…what do you think the drives are there for?
We are taught that they serve a purpose in the plan of God to bring to bring a man and woman together in love and unity in the marriage relationship (which of course includes the purpose of procreation). There is nothing in our doctrine of which I am aware that supports sexuality as an individual pursuit of pleasure.
I believe it also exists also as a challenge, as opposition if you will, on many fronts. For those who are single, it is something that is meant to be controlled, not explored or released at will. For marrieds, it is something to be tenderly and sensitively shared, not imposed on a spouse because it’s an individual need, or sought outside of the marriage relationship (think affairs or sex addictions, etc.).
Sex is often presented in our culture as an entitlement, an absolute need for human existence and self-actualization. This is not what we are taught in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Of course, we were sent to this earth to have experiences we couldn’t have without bodies. But those experiences have bounds and limits and purposes. We are given the opportunity to enjoy these things, and the most enjoyment can come when enjoyed within the bounds God has given us. For some, that means some pretty intense, patient waiting. And that is hard stuff to be sure. But there is also incredible growth when we learn to manage the body and not let it manage us.
Comment by m&m — December 9, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
But there is also incredible growth when we learn to manage the body and not let it manage us.
And, I should add, that kind of growth exists in a marriage relationship as well. There are times and seasons and situations (pregnancy and post-pregnancy, illness or disability of either spouse, stress, physical changes, aging, etc.) that affect can significantly affect the sexual relationship. Thinking of sex as an entitlement even in marriage can be very damaging to the individual and to the relationship as well.
In other words, singles are the only ones who will have challenges to face in this regard.
Comment by m&m — December 9, 2008 @ 5:10 pm
m&m (#80): forgive me, but mos of what you’ve written here sounds like speculation. I understand that God commands and does not always explain himself, and that prophets can reveal the will of the Lord to the rest of us. The problem comes when God’s revealed will accepts so many interpretations. Does “thou shalt not kill” mean “don’t kill anyone”, “don’t kill anything”, “don’t murder”, or something else? Does “thou shalt not commit adultery” mean “no married person should have sex with anyone not their spouse”, “no person (married or not) should have sex with someone they are not married to”, “no sexual relations, except between husband and wife, legally and lawfully married”, or something else? In regard to solo sexual expression, does “sexual relations” imply more than one individual, or doesn’t it? These questions may be interpreted by people, but the fact remains that God’s spoken will is murky at best, setting out general guidelines.
I have no idea all the reasons why God gave use sexual urges. I imagine it has primal importance as a means of promoting the survival of our species through sexual reproduction. But they certainly could have a lot more purposes. Certainly, there will be aspects of self-denial and indulgence that are appropriate in many different contexts during this life. I’m just not certain that what we have of God’s spoken will leads us to conclude all the things you (and others) have speculated about the spirit’s needs, sexual entitlement, etc.
Comment by Observer — December 9, 2008 @ 5:17 pm
But sex does give individual pleasure, even as an act with another person. I think it’s pretty weird not to acknowledge that this is an important part of sexuality. I’m not advocating selfish sex. But we want to have sex because it feels good to us and we know it feels good to our partners and we want both of us to experience it. I think it is a sacred thing; I wouldn’t say otherwise. I think it builds unity. But it also feels very good and God more than likely ordained it to be an act of pleasure.
What are we taught? Often that sex is not to be thought of or talked about or explored until a magic ceremony makes it okay. (This is not to say I think the ceremony is unimportant; I think it’s very important and I honor it). I don’t think that shame and smothering is integral to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I DO think sex is not necessarily an “entitlement” but it is really important to a person’s experience and self-definition (though i know you don’t like “self” hyphenated terms). If sex weren’t so important, God wouldn’t care how we experienced it.
Comment by Laura Summerhays (Minerva) — December 9, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
Hmmmmm….. Me thinks some lightening up is in order…..No?
Why is there no middle ground? I don’t understand why masturbating is so wrong? Is there any logical explanation given to us by the church? Other than it “might” lead to sexual addiction (porn addiction) if misused? Just like eating (if over-indulged) can lead to obesity…. I’m curious.
Comment by masturbation = pure awesomeness — December 9, 2008 @ 5:22 pm
re: 61
Mainstream Protestantism in the U.S. has typically promoted the attitude that sex was for men, and something which a refined or “Good” woman did not enjoy. While that is in no way doctrine in the LDS Church, the LDS culture was very much influenced by that Protestantism, including the attitude on sexuality. My wife, received got very strong messages from her family and Church community that sex was dirty, something which she should not enjoy. As she developed a strong sex drive, this became a source of a lot of emotional conflict. She never acted on her drive, but was struggled with the feeling that she was an inherently bad person for having these desires. She is hardly alone; many women, particularly of earlier generations, have felt the need to repress their desires and their sexuality to be a good person. The Church culture needs to do a better job of explaining the need for chastity without resorting to this sort of guilt about sexuality.
Comment by Derek — December 9, 2008 @ 5:23 pm
Derek (#84): could the terms “divine potential” and “divine worth” have something to do with our perception of female sexuality in the Church. These terms are applied almost exclusively toward speaking about and to young women. Young women in the church cast themselves as divine virgin goddesses (in embryo) like Athena or Artemis. How could such holy individuals besmirch themselves with desires of the flesh?
Comment by Observer — December 9, 2008 @ 5:35 pm
Interesting discussion. I have many thoughts on the issue but I doubt I can express most of them intelligently.
Whirlygirl, I don’t know if this helps much, but I was single until I was 28 and one of the things I came to realize was that my sexual identity changed throughout my twenties. I experienced many of the same crazed frustrations as most other single adults trying to keep the standards of the church as I understood them. But I also was interested in the realization that despite being essentially sexually “inactive”, the maturing and changing of all the other parts of my personality also affected my sexual identity. It was interesting to observe.
I’m not sure I can give an example that will make sense to anyone else, but for example, when I was 27 I discovered my love for theatrical performance and I think the requirements of emotional awareness, bodily awareness, and all sorts of sensory focus kind of turned me into a different person emotionally, intellectually and even sensually/sexually.
I’m trying to stick to your question: “Does anyone have experience to share on how a single, adult LDS woman honors and explores her sexuality AND spirituality despite not having a spouse?” and the related issue of integrating all the parts of yourself. I think maybe my answer would be that all those parts ARE integrated, it’s just a matter of figuring out how. You can monitor your sexual/sensual responses to all kinds of things and file that information away without obsessing over if you’re worrying about becoming “carnal”. Then I think you know yourself much better when you come to a marriage: you can be a fully realized individual who understands, to the extent she can, her own desires… and then comes the fun part of figuring out how those mesh with your partner’s.
If your partner is anything like mine, when you then tell him the kinds of things that make you appreciate and understand your own sexuality, he will be thrilled. Whether it was explaining to him that Jeff Buckley’s “Hallelujah” makes me weak in the knees, or that watching the film Out of Africa was my first realization, at age 13, that being in bed with a man actually sounded like a desirable idea, or that I find a man in jeans and a white button-down shirt with the sleeves rolled up is about the sexiest thing I can think of, or whether he’s enjoying the benefits of getting to go home with the lead actress after a triumphant performance because I’m flooded with confidence and endorphins… all these things are part of the whole package.
Just about every experience you have affects and informs your personality and your sexual identity is part of that. So live, grow, work, change, feel, and be aware. I think you’ll find out all kinds of things about yourself.
Does that help at all?
Comment by xenologue — December 9, 2008 @ 5:49 pm
I think a lot of different religions struggle with this one. I’m actually reading this book called Theology of the Body Explained that has to do with the catholic perspective and I’m finding it very helpful, despite the different religion. If you’re confident enough in your faith, I’d give it a try.
Comment by g.i.n.a. — December 9, 2008 @ 5:53 pm
Great questions. I love Starfoxy and Minerva’s suggestions.
I am older than you and I have been married over 13 years, and I still at different times find myself learning more about myself as a sexual being. I don’t think it is something that comes automatically when you say “I do” or all at any one time.
Comment by miles — December 9, 2008 @ 5:54 pm
Observer: Ya, my struggles difinitely had to do with my perfectionist personality… I actually had conversations with other missionaries about this, and it amazed me the ability some had to accept slip-ups as just a bump on the road… get up and try again, while I felt like the most unworthy person on earth, not sure if I was worthy to pray, feeling like I needed to eliminate ALL other sins from my life to even have a hope of being forgiven for masturbating… I so wish I could go back and tell myself what I know now… The sleepless, guilt-filled days and nights….
Comment by CoriAnton — December 9, 2008 @ 6:20 pm
But it also feels very good and God more than likely ordained it to be an act of pleasure.
I don’t disagree with that. Nor with this:
I don’t think that shame and smothering is integral to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
(If you think I’m suggesting otherwise, then I’m not doing a good job explaining myself, because that is far from what I have been trying to say. There is a huge difference in my mind between doctrine and self-control vs. smothering and shame.)
What are we taught? Often that sex is not to be thought of or talked about or explored until a magic ceremony makes it okay.
I think this is a bit extreme. *Some* families and some local leaders may choose to take the silent approach. But I don’t and I don’t advocate that. I am open with my kids. I actively seek opportunities to teach and talk about sex, and have been doing so (in age-appropriate ways, of course) since when my children were preschool/kindergarten age (my oldest is not yet ten). I deliberately have chosen not to sweep sex as a topic under the rug, and I don’t believe it’s supposed to be. So again, please don’t place my view in an extreme, because I believe there is great value in open discussion and teaching and understanding about sex and sexuality.
I think this word ‘explored’ is potentially very problematic, though. I think it’s awfully difficult to really ‘explore’ sexuality without engaging in sexuality. But again, that may be me misunderstanding what you in particular mean by that word.
Comment by m&m — December 9, 2008 @ 6:20 pm
I won’t put your view in this extreme category. No problem! I was projecting my own experiencing of growing up where nary a word was spoke on the subject.
We probably are using the term explore in different ways. I just know that during the most chaste time in my life I learned a lot about my sexuality. I was exploring, but I was also going to the temple (which is a good, safe place to think about sexuality).
Comment by Laura Summerhays (Minerva) — December 9, 2008 @ 6:25 pm
The thing that I find interesting about sex is that it is a timing-based sin — it is only a sin if you do it outside of certain prescribed timeframes. The exact same act done with exactly the same thoughts and emotions can be a sin one day and not a sin the next. Time based sins can be especially problematic because our brains don’t necessary incorporate the timeline. Often times, our brains think “x = sin” as opposed to “x = sin except under this timeline”.
Comment by StillConfused — December 9, 2008 @ 6:26 pm
Just to pontificate some more on some things a few comments have brought to mind.
I really agree with Janet that it is highly unfortunate that to most people sensual= sexual. In fact it often takes a conscious rearrangement of the words. I tend to think that sexual is sensual the same way that a square is a rectangle. In other words I think you can be sensual without being sexual.
A thought that came to mind in regards to this is the idea that women, or rather female bodies, are sex. (For example any ad with an attractive woman is said to be using ’sex’ to sell no matter how she is posed.) In this way it seems as if a woman must actively eschew anything sexual, or even sensual if she doesn’t want to be percieved as loose, since the default assumption is that woman=sex.
Completely unrelated to that is my opinion that a truely sensual person is very very good at delayed gratification. For example the best meals take lots of tiime to prepare and someone who really wants to appreciate that meal will wait until it is cooked properly.
Now that I think about it, perhaps the idea of idea of delayed gratification is connected to the notion of women as sex personified. Lots of things in our wider culture say that women have little or no impulse control (which openly contradicts the other popular cultural narrative that places women as the soul guardian of virtue). And so women are placed in a situation where everything must be kept bottled up tight, lest they lose all control, and if they do lose control then suddenly they are a ‘public’ or fallen woman- which is bad.
I think if we start encouraging women, young and old to truely appreciate their senses and bodies, and allow themselves to enjoy their sensations, then they will learn to develop a good sense of delayed gratification, and will likely learn that the standards we’re asked to keep are the ones that allow for most enjoyment and happiness.
Which brings me to my last point, the whole middle of the road idea. Lots of things the world considers sensual pleasures are things that actually dull senses and weaken our awareness of our bodies. In that way guidelines like the word of wisdom and the law of chastity allow us to lead healthier, more aware, and more vibrant lives.
Comment by Starfoxy — December 9, 2008 @ 6:28 pm
I was also going to the temple (which is a good, safe place to think about sexuality).
Great thought. “Exlploring” in a doctrinal sense is (I hope obviously) something I think is important. And, like I said, that is something I am doing even with my children. That all kind of goes back to my comments about putting experiences and teachings with ’sensuality’ in the context of gospel doctrine.
In that way guidelines like the word of wisdom and the law of chastity allow us to lead healthier, more aware, and more vibrant lives.
I love that statement.
As to sensuality and sexuality, I agree that it’s unfortunate that they get conflated, but they do, so I think that’s important to remember in discussions like this.
Comment by m&m — December 9, 2008 @ 6:44 pm
This has been an amazing conversation, and I have stayed on the outside because I didn’t really have anything to add. I was married at 19 and so I spent very little time exploring as it were. I was completely prudish and unprepared as a young bride, and it took a few years for me to get comfortable with it. Part of this was body image issues I got from my biological father, but the other was cultural. Good girls don’t do that. What finally helped me was the book “Between Husband and Wife” because it discussed sexuality openly (as I recall).
And I know this is going to sound silly, but Sex and the City is the best! I think it is the idea of four women, each of whom define themselves very differently and represent very different types of womanhood, talking and acting openly. I found much in the way of valuable information and certain episodes were inspirational… if you get my drift.
Comment by Eris — December 9, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
WhirlyGirl- I think I get what you are saying. I married at 24, and looking back I wondered why I worried about it so much. But I do remember those feelings…I think it is possible to be sexual and spiritual. I think when you are single, you do have to be careful if you want to adhere to the doctrines of the church. But, there are so many ways to explore your sexuality while also being worthy. I think there has been some good suggestions here.
To me, for women, sexuality is partnered with one’s own femininity. I see no problem in embracing that. I think as a single person, there is no way to not fantacize about what sex will be like. Know this…when the day actually comes….it will be different then what you think…but, the BEST part is working out the kinks with someone you totally love and trust. There are some really good books out there that instruct more then tittilate.
Back when I was single, it helped to talk to my friends and other single guys friends (not sexual interests) about things. A good romantic movie can be nice. Lots of chocolate! You know, if you like some slinky night stuff, go ahead and get it. As for masturbation…which I am not sure you were really wanting a whole lecture on…my advice is to not do it. Part of the fun of marriage is learning about yourself as well. You don’t need to be a porn star on your wedding night. I like the posts about yoga and massage. I think “touch” is something that lots of single people lack, that married people take for granted. When my husband leaves for a long period of time, I just miss having someone hug me or touch me. When you have a baby, they encourage lots of skin to skin holding. There is a reason for that. It is very calming to the system. There are ways to settle the wild beast without feeling like you have to compromise your own standards.
Comment by Katie — December 9, 2008 @ 6:57 pm
M&M, I actually think the teenage obsession with sensory experiences occurs in part because our culture does not teach people to develop our senses in a healthy (or for that matter subtle) fashion and instead focuses on excess. I’m rather certain God made the world beautiful for a reason–because he wanted us to enjoy it, with our senses. Denying them is to deny God’s plan . . . the telos of which is happiness. Happiness in community and service, but still happiness.
Which is all to say that my view of chastity and teaching kids about their senses DOES fit in, so far as I can tell, with the church doctrine. Maybe not the doctrine we hear about most often, but all the more reason to talk about it! Bodies are half of our souls, and we will carry them with us. They aren’t some annoying Cartesian implement we should look forward to ridding ourselves of (though hey, both of us look forward to the riddance of disease!).
I think I’ll just do a post later on about this, because to totally explain this will get too long. Sexuality is a part of sensuality (not the other way around, I’d argue) but even sexuality has something to do with the individual, the “I am” before the “we are.” I don’t think chastity is all about abstinence–I’d call THAT conflation the truly tragic one. It’s as much about creation and enjoyment and unification of body(ies) and soul(s) as it is denial. And sexuality is about more than sex. Being reductive is what leads to excess, I think. Make anything taboo and you make it desireable. Talk about it healthily, and, as you say, in a full context (I’d argue one much fuller than what you explicate) and it becomes a lot healthier.
Comment by janet — December 9, 2008 @ 6:58 pm
It’s time to get with the 21st century on this one, people.
Comment by Steve M — December 9, 2008 @ 6:58 pm
I can relate to Whirlygirl in so many ways. Although it’s unclear from her question whether she is celibate or socially active. I relate in that I was single and celibate until age 29. I considered myself very sexual, despite the fact that I’d never even been on a date, let alone kissed a man, until I met the man who would become my husband. I spent A LOT of time in those 29 years (rather from about age 14 on) in sexual frustration. I swear being alone amplifies it. You spend all your time wondering about sex, wishing for some kind of release or fulfillment, fantasizing about it and ultimately obsessing about it until you’re climbing the walls in hysteria. BTDT. I’m about as sex-crazed as they get. Sometimes the only things I really remember about my adolescence and young adulthood are the boys I had crushes on, or the hours upon hours spent praying for a boyfriend so I could PLEASE know what it was like. Writing in my journal about how it had better be worth all the hype because the suspense was killing me. Praying and praying for a husband because I JUST. COULDN’T. TAKE IT. ANYMORE. oh, the frustration. It’s miserable. Miserable. Someone who knew my “problem” with sex obsession said maybe God had made me unattractive to men in order to preserve my virtue. Obesity is the new chastity belt. (Believe me, if you knew my mind, you’d know my “virtue” was long gone by that time. I kind of do believe that if boys had found me even remotely attractive I would have been the town bicycle. But I digress.)
It’s so easy to tell a grown woman to buy a nice vibrator and her problems will be solved. If only. I don’t think “the magic M-word” is quite the answer Whirlygirl is asking for, anyway. In fact, I imagine she’s well aware of that option.
Now, I’m not the best person to give advice here, since I ultimately caved to my carnal desires (oh, you awesome M-word you), but for a while — back when I was still an active LDS, and in a painful repentance process that ultimately did more harm than good, I’m afraid — I did manage to find a balance, a break from the frustration, and even some happiness (before some outside, unrelated forces sent me spiraling back into more *ahem* sexual expression). So Whirlygirl, I know it’s frustrating. And confusing. And excruciating. And, if nothing else, I hope you know that you’re not alone in feeling this way.
Unfortunately the “law of chastity” advice for single/celibate LDS adults is extremely challenging (if not downright sadistic). It does take commitment and diligence (neither of which I possess in abundance, clearly), but the guidelines are already out there: serve, develop your talents, educate yourself, experience and enjoy the world around you (friends, family, music, literature, food, nature, whatever floats your non-sexual boat). There are so many things to be fascinated by and so many ways of expressing yourself. Sexuality is just one little thing. Your expression of sexuality becomes one facet of your confident, happy SELF. Don’t separate it from yourself, because it’s a part of who you are. It’s part of what makes you a wonderful human being. God made you, and He doesn’t make mistakes. Just be true to yourself. Being miserable sucks.
Comment by Lady — December 9, 2008 @ 7:53 pm
Have you all gotten the news that a new YW’s value has been added? We’re discussing it over at Beginnings New. Following Sister Dalton’s talk, they’ve added another value to the list - virtue. It appears that this will be about more than chastity and focus on preparation for the temple, but chastity will be covered by this heading.
Who knows what this will look like on the ground, but it’s interesting and kind of terrifying considering some of the YW advisors I had back in the day. I have horrible visions of the practice of this value becoming a series of exercises to feel bad about sex. But I would love nothing more than to be wrong. Maybe this will turn out to be a sign of progress towards a little more sex (in the right time) positivity.
Comment by reese — December 9, 2008 @ 7:55 pm
reese, we have talked about it. I think that when I present it (virtue), I am going to clearly distinguish between virtue and virginity (as we talked about on another thread a few months ago).
Comment by Stephanie — December 9, 2008 @ 8:04 pm
Thanks Stephanie, can you point me to that discussion? I’d love to read up on it, and it must have gone completely over my head. I missed it entirely!
Comment by reese — December 9, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
Found it, reese! Young Women and Date Rape Prevention. Discussion on separating virginity from virtue starts in comment #64.
Comment by Stephanie — December 9, 2008 @ 8:27 pm
N.O.- That was awesome! I don’t remember where I read this- so I may be off- but I think “hysteria” comes from the Greek, hysteros=womb. The idea was that the womb “floated” and when it became lodged in the throat, women became hysterical. That is also why people would slap a screaming, or hysterical woman. Get that womb back where it belongs! While I wouldn’t necessarily want my doctor to do it for me, I think I’d prefer an orgasm to a slap…
Obviously, I’m not LDS, so this may be no help to you,Whirlygirl but here’s my anecdote all the same: I was never sure what people meant when they said “sexually active,” when I was a teenager, despite the fact that I was a sexuality educator, speaking to other teen’s about “safer sex” education. I was a virgin, planned on being one for a very long time, yet considered myself “sexually active” because I kissed my boyfriends, which felt Very sexual to me! Of course my close grilfriends knew I was a virgin and assumed since I called myslef “sexually active” that I masturbated. It had never come up in a Direct way- only indirectly and I had gone along with the conversation…so they had further reason to believe that i wasn’t speaking “hypothetically”- which I was. So one day it came up- directly. I was uncomfortable and said, “No. I don’t masturbate. But I know what you are talking about,” I rushed to assure them. “Oh honey. We didn’t know!” They sounded as though I’d just revealed I was color blind and they’d been talking about Van Gogh. They recommended various vibrators, loaned me erotica and offered every piece of advice they thought was worth having. I consider myself astoundingly lucky to have the girlfriends I did. I do. They are still two of my best friends. They were strong, educated, self-aware, sex-positive young women. I feel fortunate and grateful for masturbation in a very similar way to breastfeeding- it is something awesome my body can do that serves a variety of purposes. Just as breastfeeding nourishes, settles down and bonds my baby and I, masturbating has been the means of effective family planning, satisfaction and marital happiness. Like Janet said, this may not be true for everyone, and we all have different degrees that work for us. That was my experience.
And N.O. when is the next installment of young gay friend already?
Comment by crazywomancreek — December 9, 2008 @ 8:54 pm
WOW! What a great discussion - wished I hadn’t started to read it because I’m putting off writing a paper for school. I love that we have a forum to “talk” about this.
To respond to WhirlyGirls’s question: Does anyone have experience to share on how a single, adult LDS woman honors and explores her sexuality AND spirituality despite not having a spouse?
As an “aging” 39 year old single/celibate LDS gal who still feels 21 - I work hard at exploring a lot of different things and deepening my spirituality. I start by by finding ways to be very happy that I have a physical body that functions most of the time. I run, do yoga/pilates/swim and feel grateful that I can. I take on new challenges each year that pushes me intellectually, socially, physically, and emotionally. I surround myself with positive people who I can talk with honestly about my concerns and who are themselves striving to live balanced lives. I take opportunities to smell, touch, see, hear, taste things and am reminded that I again am lucky to have functioning senses.
With this gratitude I talk a lot with the Lord and converse about all the little and big things in my life. He knows all my struggles, He knows about all those colleagues/mentors/dates/ex-boyfriends/whoever that I am mad and frustrated with, He knows what I am grateful for, and He knows all my hopes and dreams. I work hard at being honest with Him and myself and it is THEN that I can let all the other 75-90% stressors of singlehood go. It seems unfathomable to even myself, but as I do these things, I feel whole and unconcerned about what I have been missing all these years.
I’m certainly not perfect, nor would ever claim to or really want to be. I’d hate to be called a “Sweet Single” woman. I guess each person’s experience/struggle/solution is and should be different. We can support each other but ultimately we must all find our own way. If all these 101 comments suggest anything - it would be that you are not alone Whirly Girl. Best of luck to you!
P.S. Minerva - love your comments.
Comment by Jo (Joanna Legerski) — December 9, 2008 @ 9:01 pm
Lots of great discussion. I love Minerva and others suggestions about massage, yoga, books, hiking in the woods, cooking, music, aroma, skinny dipping in beautiful deserted beaches etc… I would like to add dancing. With a partner. Not just alone. I was on a professional salsa team during my late 20s (while still single) and I highly recommend that single (and married) women and men can benefit from finding a style of dance that seems appealing to them and learning it and enjoying it. Whether that’s waltz, swing, salsa, folk, country, what have you. Dancing is all about listening to and communicating with your partner– often without words. It is feeling your body move and move in response to and with others’. It is feeling theirs move also and this is not a sexual act. It can certainly be sensual to be sure, but some of my other single girlfriends and I found that it helped us to enjoy ourselves as sensual women that could move and were strong and could interact with males in a healthy and yet educational environment. (Not to mention the dancing world is a great place to meet a lot of fun and interesting people) I learned to appreciate my body more and feel sexier and let go of body image issues as I met more good male friends in the dance environment who openly shared their varying ideas of what sexy is/was. Which was often very different than the idea I had gained as a devout LDS young woman.
I also second the notion that someone else brought up that (my) sexuality and sensuality dramatically changed from my early 20s to my late 20s to my early 30s as a single LDS woman. In some ways I look back and wish that I could have been more open (earlier) to discovering what made me tick by studying more about feminine things and getting and enjoying massage and dance and yoga and Ayurveda and all sorts of things that help enrich my mind and my senses and my body. Its hard to tell someone what is right for them to do as I can only say now that it definitely took some time for me to open up being single and all because, like many others, I felt like I was wrong to feel anything sensual or sexual without a husband. I would change that thought process (at lot earlier) now if I could go back and do it all over again. And I would second Minerva’s notion that if there was someone I liked and had fun with that I wouldn’t avoid a nice kissing session and I would learn more about that interaction during the process instead of feeling worried the whole time that I would going to have to stop him real soon if he dared try anything. Not saying that I still wouldn’t stop (or expect him to do the same) things at a certain point– just that I wouldn’t put such guilt and stress on myself when it was totally unnecessary. But again, to each his own, where you decide to stop and start feelings of sensuality, sexuality and desire and how you choose to express those should be between you and HF. (And to blanketly say that we never really stop when we think we are going to is just treating ourselves or others like children or animals– isn’t the point to learn how to do that?)
Comment by moksha — December 9, 2008 @ 9:04 pm
WhirlyGirl, thanks for your question. I love it!!
I’m your age and recently married. Before I married, activities that helped me celebrate my sexuality (albeit in a limited, but important way) included:
- dancing
- dressing in a flattering way (sexy underwear was very important to me)
- reading and talking about sex (both the mechanics, and good quality ficional literature)
- horse riding (obviously this isn’t a sexual activity, but it helped ground me in my body and increase my awareness of my physicality, which was important to my sexuality then and now)
- kissing and caressing
-nude bathing (I spent time in Korea and _loved_ the bathouses there. There are seperate baths for guys and gals, so it’s non-erotic, although you go in naked. Women wash and clean eachother’s bodies- a wonderful nurturing, feminine space.)
The thing is, now that I’m married, I’ve found that I still use all of these activities to experience and explore my sexuality. I need them just as much now as I did before.
Comment by amber — December 9, 2008 @ 9:44 pm
# 96 janet- please do write the post. I’d love to hear more!
Comment by amber — December 9, 2008 @ 9:54 pm
Good to see you on here, Jo! Your comment was great. I hope everything is well with you.
Comment by Minerva — December 9, 2008 @ 10:05 pm
Oh, #109
The sexy underwear.
Oh, how I miss those. I’ve only been with ‘em for a year and a half, but I don’t think the old G’s are ever gonna grow on me. Sigh.
Comment by Natalie — December 9, 2008 @ 10:10 pm
I’m 38. Always single. I think a lot of the comments here are quite helpful–in particular I’ve appreciated #69, 93 and 104 on ways we can explore and get in touch with our physical selves.
I think that growing up in an Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture with fairly strict religious teachings about sex, being taught that virtue means no sex, it’s hard to develop a sense of your sexual self when you’ve basically been trained to sing a hymn when you have an errant thought. I would argue that although this kind of teaching and technique may have it’s place when dealing with the immature emotions and raging hormones of the teen-years, ultimately, it’s a stop-gap, divised and promulgated generally by men who have the good fortune of having married relatively young and not to bear the weight of the social burden of sexual shame on (in?) their bodies (male sexual response is to some degree so instinctual that I’d bet most guys feel little shame in arousal as long as they don’t take it any further, while women likely feel shame in the fact of arousal). I seriously doubt that most general authorities have seriously thought about the sexual longings of the single sisters of the church. Or, if they did, if they’d know what to think since male and female sexuality are very different kinds of things–let alone say to us.
I’m a feminist virgin Mormon writing a dissertation on representations of naked women, shame, and sex. I am lucky enough to have grown up in a pretty open family where we talked about a lot of things around the dinner table, my parents have a very affectionate relationship, and I am the family prude (that’s my role, with friends and in private I’m not). It’s been a real quandary to reconcile my public prudery with the requirement that I talk about sexuality and actually name body parts in public settings, let alone that I want to be a good example of someone who lives up to her covenants as a member of the church–I don’t want people to think that I actually know what I’m talking about from experience, right? I mean, the appearance of evil and all that. Luckily, my family doesn’t seem to be that flustered by it–when I tried to talk to my mom about it her response was “Well, you do have _feelings_. So, get over it.” (so hard to capture the inflection there)
It’s a conundrum we have in the church talking about sex. We talk about chastity (which we define as no sex other than between a wife and husband) (and usually in the most awkward and uncomfortable way), but we never talk about celibacy. Because celibacy is not the goal. The eternal family and the privilege of eternal procreation is the ultimate goal and reward. Earthly celibacy is considered the unideal exception (despite the fact that ALL of us at some time or another will be single or at least sex-less) and we consider eternal celibacy damnation. We have no tradition of discussing or exploring it. Here the Catholics have the edge in that they at least have a tradition of celibacy (and the good and bad that can come from that).
Kathleen Norris has an excellent chapter on celibacy in her book _The Cloister Walk_. She was at a retreat in a convent contemplating some issues in her marriage and began to talk to the nuns about intimacy and relationships and how they lived a celibate life. She quotes a prioress on the topic, “Celibacy is not an excuse for being unhappy or uncharitable, to stuff feelings down, to become angry, or an iceberg…The worst sin against celibacy is to pretend to not have any affections at all. To fall in love is celibacy at work…Celibacy is not a vow to repress our feelings, it is a vow to put all our feelings, acceptable or not, close to our hearts and bring them into consciousness through prayer…the worst thing that we can do is to deny our true feelings and become rigid, afraid to relate.” Another sister told her that “To be celibate, it seems to me, means first of all being a loving person in a way that frees you to serve others. Otherwise, celibacy has no point.” Another told her that “Celibacy has given me a good way to integrate my sexuality with my spirituality; I’ve come to realize that the goal of both is union with God and with others.”
I can’t stress how helpful I’ve found this. It’s given me permission to feel and notice and love, even when there’s no ideal resolution (I’d rather have a crush and be pining alone and from afar than never to have loved at all). It makes me sad when I hear other single friends talk about being “repressed”. I think that’s a horrible dead end. Instead, I’ve embraced the strategy of sublimation–trying to redirect the energy–(totally explains the dissertation topic) by finding things to do (grad school, 2 part-time jobs, church), being grateful for the blessings my single status brings (freedom!), trying to buy clothes that make me feel good and treating myself well (nice smelling conditioner, or polishing my toes, even when they’re seasonally covered with socks, for example), and from time to time just sinking into a pit of mushy movies, smushy books, and chocolate eating. And I tell myself it could be worse. Instead of being single and lonely, I could be lonely and married.
Comment by marianne — December 9, 2008 @ 10:45 pm
wow! i missed a great discussion.
laura, you should come out and comment more often.
you too cwc.
Comment by mfranti — December 9, 2008 @ 10:49 pm
Wearing garments makes me feel so unsexy. I feel like a nun.
Comment by Liz — December 10, 2008 @ 12:05 am
I have only read the first few responses so sorry if this is repetitive.
I have been asked by others not of the LDS faith why we believe masturbation is bad. My usually response is something like, we are supposed to try to keep our thoughts as clean as possible, and have you ever tried to masturbate and not think about unadulterated, lustful passion? Many of my friends have understood this and expressed that their pastors and other clergy have said to keep ones thoughts pure, but that had never occurred to them. Just my thought.
Comment by bigmama — December 10, 2008 @ 12:23 am
I have always loved my garments. So comfy to sleep in. No panty lines. No bra elastics pinching my skin and knowing I made the right choices to be able to wear them.
I know nuns and knowing them makes me more thankful I can take my g’s off and have SEX! (Well, someday hehehe, since I am currently single)
Comment by bigmama — December 10, 2008 @ 12:31 am
Whoa. Lots of discussion since I last checked in. I missed this earlier:
In regard to solo sexual expression, does “sexual relations” imply more than one individual, or doesn’t it? These questions may be interpreted by people, but the fact remains that God’s spoken will is murky at best, setting out general guidelines.
I suppose we may have to agree to disagree, but I don’t see this as being murky:
This is not isolated counsel, either. Chastity is repeatedly being taught as more than just avoiding sexual intercourse. It’s about avoiding intentional sexual arousal and stimulation outside the bonds of marriage as well. (Note that distinction — the standards do not denounce sexual feelings one has (those feelings are taught to be divinely given and are normal), but does teach about the wrongness of the intentional, unlawful (re: God’s law) stimulation of those feelings.)
Another example of the types of standards we are taught about what is not appropriate is on the Church website:
In the end, it seems to me that you can disagree with the teachings, and obviously some do, but I think it is very inaccurate to say that we aren’t given specific instruction on this topic and that the standards aren’t clear. Again, the standard is to avoid intentional sexual arousal outside the bonds of marriage, in any way. Plain and simple.
Reading back to janet’s comment - I think it’s important to teach this not as a ‘thou shalt not’ alone — again, give context and perspective on the wonder and importance and blessing of sexual relations — but let’s not miss the clear standards in the midst of it all, either.
Comment by m&m — December 10, 2008 @ 1:15 am
janet way back when said:
M&M, I actually think the teenage obsession with sensory experiences occurs in part because our culture does not teach people to develop our senses in a healthy (or for that matter subtle) fashion and instead focuses on excess. I’m rather certain God made the world beautiful for a reason–because he wanted us to enjoy it, with our senses.
Again, I don’t disagree with this. At all!! This is scriptural, even.
I know it’s hard to understand my comments in a discussion like this, but please understand that a lot of my comments are in response to those who are, imo, simply dismissing clear church counsel. Like I said in the previous comment, I don’t think the standards are as murky or subjective as some want to make them out to be.
And I don’t think we can really explore what you are talking about without those standards clearly and firmly in place (not that I am saying you disagree, again…just trying to clarify my own thoughts here). IMO, the exploration and enjoyment of ANY of our senses MUST be within God’s standards or such exploration can end up distorted, and very easily lead to excess either toward too much sensuality — or on the flip side, of a shutdown of healthy connection with one’s body and senses. (I think earlier generations often went to this extreme — not talking about sex at all, instilling fear and secrecy instead of teaching in the Light as it were.)
I think the challenge comes in the fact that it’s all too easy to teach the standards without teaching a healthy view of the body and the senses, and on the other hand, it’s all too easy to encourage sensory experiences and enjoyment without a healthy and correct view of the doctrine and standards. Both, imo, are required for a truly healthy development. No small tasks for those of us who are teachers and parents of youth.
No — That’s no small task to truly embrace in our own lives, and not just with sexuality. I think it’s rare to find someone who doesn’t struggle or distort in some way re: God’s purposes and doctrine about the body…think about the myriad challenges with eating disorders, addictions of many kinds (all leading to sensory experience as coping mechanism instead of healthy outlet and enjoyment), sexual sin, etc.
After all, teens are by no means the only ones prone to these extremes…honestly, which of us isn’t affected in some way by the distortions of culture and human weakness when it comes to our bodies?)
In fact, I think that all of this kind of balance in living and teaching truth — all of it — is a key part of, as we say, ‘learning by our own experience.”
Comment by m&m — December 10, 2008 @ 1:42 am
Just putting this out there, but while I was at BYU my bishop took away my temple recommend due to my struggle with masturbation.
Throughout my singles ward experience across North America most Bishops bring up the topic frequently to the priesthood and those members who fess up are generally put on probation (no sacrament and no exercising of the priesthood) till the sinner shows true repentance.
Comment by k — December 10, 2008 @ 3:46 am
Interesting, all the comments that were made while I was sleeping.
So I’ve been thinking more about it, and as I was reading my scriptures this morning, I ran across Alma 7:9, which tells us to repent and walk on the paths of the Lord, which are straight. I got to thinking about how when we justify sin, no matter how big or how large, we are straying from the straight and narrow path. It doesn’t count if we still have one finger or even a toe on the iron rod, that means we aren’t walking straight anymore.
In verse 15, we are told to lay down our sins that will bring us destruction and show God that we are willing to repent and make a covenant with him (to keep his commandments). Additionally, this is to be done today. Not once we are married and can repent from the past. Now.
In verse 16, we are promised that whoever does this from now on will think about how He has promised us eternal life.
God doesn’t look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. But He does love us and thus we have the Atonement so that we can repent. It’s not too late to repent if mistakes have been made, and all we can do is try our best to keep His commandments, which come from His prophets, whether clearly explained or not. When they tell us to stay spiritually and sexually clean, that’s what we should do, both within and outside of marriage. I’m sure there are people who would say on here that just a little coffee is okay, or not exercising regularly is okay. And we can certainly find justifications for any sin. But the truth is, we have been advised not to do those things, and we certainly won’t feel like justifying or blaming on advice of others anymore once we are face to face with our Judge.
WhirlyGirl, I hope you can sort out the advice that will bring you closer to God and the advice that will distance you from Him. I know it’s not easy. Life never was meant to be easy, and if it were, we wouldn’t learn anything. A friend told me that one of her favorite quotations is, “A person who stands himself against the wind knows exactly how strong it is. Someone who lays himself on the ground has no idea!” People who just give up and say, “I’m a sexual being, so I have the right to do whatever satisfies me sexually” are justifying their action of giving up. They aren’t learning to control themselves; they aren’t preparing for an eternal life where they can say they have trained themselves to be good people in the face of adversity and temptation. Indeed, it wouldn’t matter if someone never had the chance to marry and have sex in this entire life. Those who think it does matter are short-sighted. There is a whole eternity to come that is much more beautiful than this one and where we’ll have more chances than we can dream of. Eternal life is the greatest of all rewards. It is true happiness and it is worth it to prepare for that time.
Comment by Michelle Glauser — December 10, 2008 @ 4:41 am
I’ll probably catch some flak for this, but it seems like there’s still the 300 lb elephant in the room that nobody’s talking about here — how you project yourself. Sex is about attracting (and keeping) a mate. Are you attractive (this is a rhetorical question not aimed at anyone in particular)? All this talk about exploring senses and eating chocolate and all is great, but not if you’re out of shape and overweight, or ambivalent to the laws of attraction when it comes to how you dress and present yourself to the opposite sex. Are you taking good care of what God gave you, making it the best it can be? Is exercise a daily part of your life? Are you eating healthy food, in moderation? Do the clothes you wear hide the fact that you’re a woman? A friend and former colleague is an attractive single woman, but she hides her body in shapeless, rather manly clothing that does not display her womanly curves to any advantage. Getting our (men’s) attention is an important first step! I’m not talking about immodesty or “slutty” attire — but women can go a long way to improving their sex appeal with the right clothing (that doesn’t compromise standards).
I think most here will agree that the cure to sexual frustration is to find a worthy mate! Some critical self-analysis might go a long way to that end. The girl at the gym with the cutest butt is also one that spends a good hour on the elliptical or stairmaster, followed by 20 minutes of lunges. In other words, she’s working it, and her hard work is paying off (she’s got my attention anyway). My $.02…
Comment by Rich — December 10, 2008 @ 8:36 am
Rich,
For Pete’s sake. I have a sister who is 39 years old and has a great body, great fashion sense, and every man she meets falls in love with her. And yet she’s single. I have sisters who have very low self esteem who are overweight and they are married. I myself am overweight but am in a relationship with someone who loves my body.
Actually, the most sexual frustration a gal can experience is being in a singles ward in the pursuit of that “worthy mate.” It’s a losing game except for the few who meet the requirements of men who think like you.
Comment by Minerva — December 10, 2008 @ 8:45 am
Another guy who thinks single girls are single because they’re fat and out of shape. They’re single because they sit in front of the tv all day when they should be at the gym working out for two hours.
That’s an answer for ya. Great..
Comment by Lula O — December 10, 2008 @ 9:17 am
I think you’ve missed the WHOLE point of this discussion, Rich. Sure, I could flaunt the superficial and call that sexuality, and be happy that I have the power to turn men on. But that’s not really MY spiritual sexuality! That’s called objectification, and can get a lot of men, as well as women, in trouble. My goal is to move past that all-image part and develop a relationship with myself in truely knowing who I am as a sexual being, a relationship with my Heavenly Father in which I know He approves of and has a plan for my sexuality, and develop a relationships that help me find a man who appreciates ALL aspects of who I am, my body included, but DOES NOT think that what I am in regard to sex is a nice bod.
Comment by whirlygirl — December 10, 2008 @ 9:38 am
m&m (#118): I agree that we’re probably going to have to agree to disagree. That quote from Elder Scott is the exactly the type of quote that asks members to suppress (reject?) their sexuality in ways that I believe are unhealthy, and that cause lots of far-reaching effects about confronting our own sexuality once “the time is right”. I, too, agree that our sexual attractions and expressions should best be used within a married relationship, and that this life isn’t designed to go from one pursuit of pleasure to another, but I simply cannot support statements like “Do not arouse those emotions in your own body. These things are wrong. Do not do them” from anyone. The guilt associated with “Such practices would undermine your ability to be inspired by the Holy Ghost in the vitally important decisions you must make for your future” is devastating to those who believe that even one slip-up is going to “undermine” your ability to feel God’s love and direction in your life. And while “They lead to binding addictions and grievous transgressions” in some people, I don’t think that causality has been proven for all people. Nevertheless, Elder Scott makes it sound like if you touch yourself even once, you’ll lose the spirit and probably begin an addictive, destructive habit that will eventually thrust you to hell. Sorry, but if that were true, the vast majority of men, and many women in our church would be headed straight there, ravenous in their uncontrollable sexual drive that caused them all eventually to commit grievous transgressions. Fwiw, every time I’ve ever talked to a bishop about these things, he’s not been really all that concerned, and simply has counseled that I keep my spirits up and keep on trying. Hardly the fires of hell.
Comment by Observer — December 10, 2008 @ 9:52 am
Rich is only alive today becasue men can be ugly as sin and still find someone better looking then them.
President Hales addressed masturbation when he visited our mission. He felt (no real statistics just gut feel) 80% of missionaries confessed of masturbation, 10% did it and lied about not doing it, and 10% did not engage.
I think we make dating and finding a mate too complicated. When I was at BYU my roommates would spend hours comong up with creative dates. They could have spent those hours with actual girls on a simple grab a slice of pizza date.
If masturbation can quiet the drive and make you think about the person your with and not about sex the whole time is better than the divorce 2 years later then that is not such a bad thing.
And your husband may deny it but I would bet money he is not in the 10% that did not engage. All of those guys exploded.
Comment by Jerry — December 10, 2008 @ 10:02 am
Rich, you are helping with my bulimia: I cannot stop barfing.
Comment by L.W. — December 10, 2008 @ 10:12 am
Rich, you make me reconsider being a nun. Please say are single, and if you are, do all womankind a favor, and stay that way! Stupid is as stupid says! I can diet buddy, you are stupid (and shallow) forever!
Comment by bigmama — December 10, 2008 @ 10:42 am
wow, thanks for some great feedback on my question. Bored In Vernal #20, those are EXACTLY my questions and frustrations sometimes!
Thanks Minerva (21), Slarue (49), Starfoxy (51), Janet (53), Xenologue (88), Katie (98), Jo (107), Moksha (108), Amber (109), and Marianne (113) for your experience, strength and hope on this subject!
I’m a big fan of experiencing things with the senses. Textures, tastes, smells, temperatures all are so important to my experience as a human, and bring me energy and joy in my life. I’ve been doing yoga for about 4 years & love the connection with and experience of being In my body. There are a lot of things that people have suggested that I already do, but I think the main thing is that recently I had lost perspective that those things relate do relate to my sexuality and spirituality. I’ve been frustrated with God that if he’s given me such strong desires, why isn’t He giving me an outlet for them that He approves of? That’s what it comes down to, is finding for myself what His purpose is for me and honoring that. But that is SUCH a scary thing for me to do on my own. It is reassuring to know that other people are doing the same thing, allowing themselves to have a process around this, and are not going to either extreme of letting go of everything OR of shutting down that part of themselves.
Comment by whirlygirl — December 10, 2008 @ 10:46 am
I DO think that there needs to be somewhat of a difference in discussing sexuality and chastity with a 15 year-old vs someone who is single in their late 20s. The *principles* are still very much the same, but one’s understanding and perspective can change very much in the first decade after puberty. The thought came to me yesterday that it’s much like driving. Whether I am 16 or 45, I still need to put on my seat belt, obey traffic laws, respect the other people on my road, but the nuances and abilities of my driving improve over time so that I’m not as clumsy and prone to distastrous outcomes in my driving. I prove myself trustworthy with what I have, understand more of my limits, and should be spoken to differently about things.
No one with wisdom is going to let a new driver take a trip cross-country in a rain-storm without someone in the car to supervise and warn of dangers. But as that person learns more about the dangers, becomes more familiar with driving, and shows a respect for driving and the laws of traffic, trust grows, the conversation changes, and more independence is given. I hope that analogy makes sense.
I’m NOT saying that just because I’m 27 I should have permission to go crazy and disregard the standards, but that I would like the CONVERSATION and black and white-ness of the dos/don’ts and dangers to change a bit. The fact is that people DO get aroused. One can’t turn that off at 25 because he/she is not married, and one should not ignore that, but if the conversation that Elder Scott gave to “primarily the youth” is given to anyone who is single, I think Obverver is right, the shame and fear of losing the Spirit as a result of normal human responses can become paralyzing.
Comment by whirlygirl — December 10, 2008 @ 10:52 am
Thanks CoriAnton for your thoughts. I grew up being perfectionistic, overly anxious about doing/looking good in order to be loved/lovable. I think that this is a common thread among compulsive masturbators, and that the problem isn’t in the act (as with any addiction) but the unmet need that it masks. I really liked your discussion of this on your blog.
As for the “no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God”, I was reading “The Infinite Atonement” by Tad R. Callister recently and came accross this: “A careful reading of this (1 Ne. 10:21 and 1 Ne. 15:33) and related scriptures will reveal that the word “dwell” as used in this context refers to a permanent or eternal condition that exitsts *after* men are brough “before the judgment seat of God” (1 Ne 10:21). Dwelling, in this sense, is a future condition. Until the judgment occurs there seems to be no scriptural prohibition against imperfect beings temporarily residing in God’s presence.” (pg 77)
So, (i think) we can lose the companionship of the Spirit as a result of sin, and yet still reside with or be in the presence of God (rather than dwell, which is after judgment) as an imperfect child, i.e. feel His love, commune with Him in prayer, etc,…wish I’d understood that everytime I felt like I’d completely blown it and felt like I had to be SOO GOOD before I could acknowledge myself as a child of God again!
Comment by whirlygirl — December 10, 2008 @ 11:03 am
whirlygirl #123 - I think the key to that is the Atonement. We can be imperfect and sinners, but the Atonement makes up the difference. The key is that we need to allow the Atonement to work in our lives through repentance.
Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2008 @ 11:07 am
oops #133
Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2008 @ 11:09 am
In regards to comments here regarding the LDS Church’s “long standing” position on masturbation, check this out http://www.springerlink.com/content/5p211f5b48gpdglv/fulltext.pdf
Per this the position may not be so long standing. But the biggest surprise to me when I came across this paper was that people actually research this stuff.
I am not sure there is a good answer to the original question in this post.
Comment by Cyclingred — December 10, 2008 @ 11:49 am
I have to agree that I think the standards are incredibly clear when it comes to masturbation, but just like with every other sin/lapse in judgment/whatever, there is forgiveness and there is an atonement. There’s another day to try something different, to improve yourself, to re-evaluate your commitments and how well you’re keeping your covenants.
I have to also say this: five years or so ago, my mom attended a RS lesson in which the teacher spent virtually the entire time speaking about the sinfulness of women wearing pants, cutting their hair short, doing “manly” things because it was disrespecting the feminine natures that God gave them. This obviously didn’t fly, and one woman in the room said, after so much back and forth, “Listen, if I can kneel down in my Levis and say a prayer and feel good about it, then you really can’t tell me it’s wrong.” I think that’s an important concept. There is a scale of sexual stimulation, of thinking about sexual things, of engaging with another person, etc. Anything that’s entered into must be left with a clear conscience and a solid relationship with God if it can be considered right FOR YOU. And it’s an individual thing, I feel. Some things are clearly marked as “sins,” but other things are murky or gray. Spiritual guidance is the only marker that matters in those instances, the way I see it.
And also, I think whirlygirl is asking a great and important question. I don’t think it had much to do with masturbation (though it perhaps did?), but that’s where the discussion’s gone. I think some awesome AWESOME advice has been given regarding sensuality.
Comment by Avech — December 10, 2008 @ 12:02 pm
I agree that the law of chastity should not be applied equally to tee ns as to adults. It’s a supernally sadistic god who would allow an 18 year old to have all the sex she can get from her husband because she married during her first semester at the Y, and yet her 40 year old aunt is not even “allowed” to masturbate because it might offend the spirit. Hasn’t the Holy Ghost observed a trillion sex acts by now? Whence the false modesty and feigned embarrassment?
Comment by Araceli — December 10, 2008 @ 12:20 pm
I’m a big fan of the angry prayer. There are things we just can’t figure out for ourselves that just don’t seem to have clear answers. I’ve found that when I’m pretty blunt with the Lord, he’s in turn pretty blunt with me. A little scary, and always very humbling to be sure, but we’re down here in the trenches and he’s got the wider view. Demand some perspective.
Comment by marianne — December 10, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
I so agree with this. It can be like a drug. This certainly isn’t the case for everyone (I can only speak from personal experience as a former social phobic with severe clinical depression), but perhaps the loneliest and most imperfect and desperate among us have, at some point, sought out some kind of balm. Religion was doing nothing for me (apart from making it worse. Again, this is only my personal experience and I do not mean to imply that everyone who participates in masturbation is a desperate, self-hating, lonely, worthless, dirty, dirty hell-bound person. the church can take care of those labels on its own). Some people turn to eating disorders, substance abuse, gambling, shopping or cutting, but this was my vice. It seemed the least destructive option (apart from the burning in hell angle, but I’d get that from any of the above, no?). It was the only thing that felt good in my life and I could control the when/where/how. It’s never enough, though. For a single/celibate adult it’s no more than a physical release. There’s no emotional connection, no intimacy, no companionship, no actual needs being met. Depending on your general state of social or mental health I’m sure a single/celibate can manage rather nicely by surrounding herself with lots of supportive friends (loneliness), having heart-to-heart talks with a close relative or friend (intimacy), getting a pet (companionship, interdependence, commitment), exercising (physical release, endorphins), keeping a journal (emotional release) and being kind to yourself in general (indulgence, self-esteem).
Comment by me too — December 10, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
whirlygirl, I really like your driving analogy, and if you don’t mind, I’d like to extend it a step further into the overused “driving on the edge of a cliff” analogy. Both a 16 and 45 year old can drive up a road next to a cliff. A 16 year old is probably better off hugging the edge of the mountain. With his limited skills, the risk of going over the edge are great. A 45 year old is much more skilled and can drive closer to the edge. But, there is still a risk that the driver needs to be aware of.
Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2008 @ 3:02 pm
It’s so sad they still teach that pleasing your own body, in your own private moments, is a sin. Young girls should be taught to love their bodies. I grew up Mormon, and remember being taught that at a youth weekend. It was at that moment, even naive as I was, that I realized I didn’t believe in everything they taught. Masturbation in as natural as breathing.
You CAN believe this: the “higher-up” males in the church take part in it behind closed doors; no matter what they try to tell you. I would bet the farm on it. I can bet now, too, since I am no longer a member;)
Comment by Veronica — December 10, 2008 @ 3:07 pm
The guilt associated with “Such practices would undermine your ability to be inspired by the Holy Ghost in the vitally important decisions you must make for your future” is devastating to those who believe that even one slip-up is going to “undermine” your ability to feel God’s love and direction in your life.
The counsel is there to give us the standards, but that never means ‘one slip-up’ will end one’s spiritual life. Repentance is there, always. But that involves accepting the standards and the wrongness of the choice. Guilt was never meant to paralyze, but to turn us to the Savior. (Easy to say, I know - I’m perfectionist myself, easily affected by guilt.)
We *all* fall short of standards in some way. The question is whether we seek to repent and improve, or whether we seek to justify our sins and transgressions and failings. We all do the latter in some way or another, but that does end up hurting us spiritually. — even if it doesn’t lead to extreme sins, anything we do to justify ourselves in wrongdoing can hurt our spirits.
Comment by m&m — December 10, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
And I think 138 is a great response. God has given all of us trials and struggles and questions that test our faith and endurance. While I think it’s interesting to talk to others and get their experience, ultimately, just because someone else does ________ to meet their challenge doesn’t make it right, or right for you.
Go to God. Ask Him boldly and repeatedly and humbly what He wants you to do. In His time and way, He will help you know if you ask.
And search the scriptures and words of the prophets, too, for that is one key way He speaks to us.
Comment by m&m — December 10, 2008 @ 3:33 pm
Stephanie, I see you point on driving to close to the edge, but my thought is…
Ive been over the edge before and it was alot of fun, being too close to the edge is more difficult because of my skill when I went over the last time. Does that make sense?
Comment by bigmama — December 10, 2008 @ 3:46 pm
did not read all of the comments…. too many and too little nap time left (if you know what I mean).
My husband and I discussed this at length with regard to our children. We do NOT want our children to believe that masterbation is on the same level as adultry or murder… masterbation only involves yourself. You are the one you are potentially harming. Where adultry/fornication (and murder) effect others adversly as well.
That being said I believe it should be avoided if possible, though I understand that people slip up (myself included). I truely think that even in marriage it whould be avoided… say what you will. I do my best to avoid anything that is done souly for my own benefit, I try hard to stay away from anything that may lead to any kind of selfishness or greediness. (I AM NOT saying looking out for oneself is selfish, so PLEASE don’t twist my words that way. All of life is a balancing act as far as what is healthy) I do believe that the physical aspects of sexuality are best explored as a couple from the begining. This does not mean that you should deny that you are a sexual being though… that can cause major problems with a partner in the future.
Basically this is a question every person has to answer for themselves. I think Heavenly Father considers each person and their situations individually.
Comment by April — December 10, 2008 @ 3:50 pm
Oh my gosh. It sounds like you all think it is good to become natural women, carnal, sensual and, well you know the rest. I married and 31 and I can’t really remember worrying very much about sexuality. I wasn’t afraid of it, I wasn’t ashamed of it. I didn’t feel guilty about it. When I finally married I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it most when we were trying to conceive. I still enjoy it.
While there doesn’t appear to be a consensus about how sinful masturbation is thereare enough negative beliefs about it that some bishops and stake presidents will not give recommends to persons who tell them they do it habitually. For a person who considers him/herself worthy and spiritual enough to worship in the temple being denied a recommend is about as frustrating as it gets.
Comment by Claudia — December 10, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
re: 87
Interesting thought. If this is the case, why do you think we associate divinity with the virgin goddesses (Artemis and Athena) instead of the mother/fertility goddesses which abound in mythology (Hera, Isis, Frigga, Freya, Demeter, Sif, Hestia, etc)? Is it because the virgin goddesses are more independent, where the fertility/mother goddesses are often depicted as subordinate?
re: 101
I hope you miscommunicated, or that I am misunderstanding. Because my reading of your experience has made me furious. Did someone really have the nerve to tell you that God made you unattractive to protect you from yourself? Not only is that incredibly condescending, but distorted as well. When the hell are we going to stop focusing on such a narrow definition of beauty? Just because you may not be fit some specific cultural concept of beauty does not make you unattractive! Women are gloriously beautiful in all shapes and sizes! Not just their spirit, but their bodies. Yes, we all have our superficial preferences (I’ve always been partial to dark eyes and hair), and yes, we should be conscious of and concerned about certain health risks which our current body condition might present (which are also present in the ultra-slender, not just the obese). But if we can’t honestly see the beauty in a variety of different forms, of the smile of each individual person, then we are pretty pathetic. I’m sorry if you faced that sort of asinine stigma, Lady.
And Rich, come on!
(and sorry for the rant and potential threadjack)
re: 131
I think your point about the conversation is perfect. All too often in our rather Victorian culture, we try to suppress the conversation. We (the membership of the Church broadly) try to suppress all conversation, use silly euphemisms like “intimacy” (sex and intimacy can and should be related, but they are not the same thing!), and pretend those desires don’t even exist. There can and should be a conversation in which we engage the topic.
Comment by Derek — December 10, 2008 @ 3:55 pm
bigmama, I admit that I don’t fully understand what you are saying. I think you are saying that because staying close to the edge is now more difficult, you prefer to hug the mountain like a 16 year old?
Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2008 @ 4:07 pm
Precisely!
Comment by bigmama — December 10, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
Okay, well, I admit that I am a mountain hugger myself. But, I can see why a savvy 45 year old driver would say, “Quit telling me to hug the mountain! I’m not 16 anymore”
Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2008 @ 5:24 pm
Derek (#147): We don’t want our daughters to be like fertility goddesses (although the prime proto-judaic conception of the fertility goddess as Asherah could be an acknowledgement of a mother in heaven) because that fertility is what we so desperately hope to control. Ironically, I don’t think casting young women as Artemis or Athena makes them any more independent; their virginity isn’t as active and powerful as much as it is a delicate object to be handled carefully and placed on a pedestal. Or it becomes the pedestal/gilded cage itself, confining a woman to the expectations her culture has erected for her.
All of that is academic musings, however. I don’t think we should cast our daughters to be any type of ideal. We are humans, we make mistakes and experience joys and sorrows. We are unique and wonderful, yet ultimately so similar that we’re really nothing special. We are made up of lots of complex, sometimes-contradictory yearnings and attractions, and we do our best to seek happiness without hurting others as much as possible.
Comment by Observer — December 10, 2008 @ 6:15 pm
Sex in any form is for a married man and woman. Young men get plenty of lessons directed towards masturbation because it’s more of a male problem with youth than with women (regardless of religion). It’s hard to find any man who has never masturbated at least once. It’s natural to slip up, but it’s a lot easier to avoid it when you don’t go looking for it in the first place. Don’t start, that’s my advice. The Gospel doesn’t end at the bedroom door or anywhere else. Anyone who says differently is fooling themselves about the Gospel.
Additionally, sex is not an entitlement because you have a body. Those things can wait for marriage. I love sex, and I looked forward to it so much as a teenager and young 20-something. But it’s like Christmas sometimes: the hype of waiting sometimes increases your desire for it. It’s not a terrible sin, but few things are. The point is, it’s a slippery slope.
Having said that, and speaking frankly, what you and your spouse do is completely up to you. Personally, I’ve bought my wife a vibrator and urged her to explore her sexuality when I’m not around. Things are different, though, when you’re single. Those are forces you cannot tap into while single and still think you’re following the Gospel.
Comment by Jon — December 10, 2008 @ 6:31 pm
re: 147 Derek,
No miscommunication or misunderstanding, you hit it on the head. Believe it or not, at the time (I was 16), I considered that person’s words to be among the more merciful things someone had ever said to me, and I believed them wholeheartedly. (She was my most trusted mentor, a school advisor who was everything I’d been trained to admire: devout LDS, RM, BYU grad, young mother, 98 lbs soaking wet.) I grew up in “Happy Valley” in the ’80s. Surely I’m not the only one here who was thusly indoctrinated/brainwashed?
I do have some seriously jacked-up body issues, man. (If I had a nickel for every “Rich” in my life….) Even now, I have an amazing husband who thinks I’m beautiful and claims to love every bootylicious curve of me (he was worth the wait), yet it makes me crazy self-conscious and suspicious whenever he says so. I question his sanity, among other things. It’s really the only thing we fight about.
Thank you for your words of kindness. Up until this moment I truly thought my husband was the only man on Earth who professed such things. (It’d be nice if I believed either of you actually believed them, but it might take years of therapy for that to happen. Until then, I value the sentiment. You’re good people, Derek.) *smile*
(sorry for the off-topic)
Comment by Lady — December 10, 2008 @ 6:52 pm
But, I can see why a savvy 45 year old driver would say, “Quit telling me to hug the mountain! I’m not 16 anymore”
Is any of us immune from danger or the potential spiritual impact of pushing limits of sin and transgression? I really disagree with this kind of thinking.
The regret I have from my single years is pushing that line. I was always temple worthy, always living the law of chastity in its strictest sense. In fact, I never did anything but kiss the guys I dated — so I’m not talking any kind of extreme anything. But honestly, I wish I had gotten less physically involved (and again, I’m just talking kissing, nothing more) with guys along the way. Once I got married and realized truly how close to the line I had come, I regretted it. I also regretted the fact that the emotions and feelings and senses that should have been only for the relationship with my husband had been spent on guys who ended up leaving my life. One of those was pretty recent when I got married, and the memories did not fade for a while.
I think it’s too easy to be too lax about this stuff. I was even encouraged by my parents to let myself go a little. I think that kind of encouragement is wrong. That’s part of why I’m so passionate about this topic — because I understand from personal experience the value and truth of the boundaries the prophets teach — not just with the literal line of the law, but with keeping one’s self away from that line to preserve the sanctity of the marital sexual experience — ALL of it, not just the sex act itself.
Comment by m&m — December 10, 2008 @ 7:07 pm
Jon - ever assist your wife with that vibrator you bought her? Why put the caveat on the gift by stipulating that she can use it when you aren’t available? Ya never know what the two of you can discover together. ooo la la
Was that the voice of experience talking?
make it a terrific evening folks.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — December 10, 2008 @ 7:17 pm
#155
Thanks for the advice. She doesn’t like the thought of an “inorganic” vibrator much yet. I say alone, because it’ll be a stress-free environment where there aren’t any outside expectations. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to use it together, but she doesn’t want to quite yet. That’s fine.
Comment by Jon — December 10, 2008 @ 7:27 pm
I have often been in the Laurel classroom on a Sunday and heard how much we must stay away from the edge, not to push the line. Abstinence is a wonderful way to raise our kids and to behave as a single adult. Repentance is preached up the wazzoo (sp?) but I think instead of JUST using the scare tactics, we need to let our kids and those we teach that stepping over the line will not damn them to fire and brimstone. VERY good people have crossed the line and are better people today because they went through the steps of repentance. We need to let kids know our love is truly unconditional. I know of LDS parents who aren’t able to treat their kids the same after finding out that the line has been pushed. If they don’t know they will still be accepted at home and at church, why go through the repentance process at all? Their young minds can’t understand how that sacrifice will benefit them. Teaching kids about masturbation is important. Degrading them for doing it has serious consequences.
Comment by bigmama — December 10, 2008 @ 7:30 pm
bigmama, will you be my mom? ; )
Comment by me too — December 10, 2008 @ 8:03 pm
re: 151
You’re right, Observer; it’s all mere pontification. But I get a kick out of that sort of thing;)
re: 153
I’m so sorry for your history, Lady, and that this mentor of yours honestly thought that she was being nice. Damn.
Sad as it is, I can believe that you still have those issues now after marriage. Years of torturous conditioning aren’t easy to overcome.
And I can’t blame you for doubting my sincerity, given that conditioning. Nor can I claim to be perfect in my acceptance of all women. There are some features which I find less attractive than others. But having done a fair amount of figure studies (nudes) in art classes, I can honestly say I’ve found a wide variety of women to be beautiful and sensuous (I try not to think “sexy” while creating), and I’ve rarely seen a woman whom I don’t think has an attractive smile.
Best wishes to your husband in helping you feel the beauty he sees.
Comment by Derek — December 10, 2008 @ 8:05 pm
me too, that is the nicest of compliments.
Comment by bigmama — December 10, 2008 @ 8:40 pm
jon, trust me. you two can have a lot of fun together with that thing.
do it!
do it!
do it!
she’ll thank you later. i promise.
Comment by mfranti — December 10, 2008 @ 9:54 pm
Re Jon #152,
Why is it okay for a married woman to masturbate (with her husband’s encouragement), but not for a single woman to masturbate?
Is it that, like other sexual privileges, the right explore one’s own body parts is dormant until the right of marriage? Is it that if you have the permission of the one person with whom the Church condones sexual activity (i.e., your spouse), it’s okay?
As for the rest of this discussion . . . I can understand objections to some activities that may involve masturbation (compulsive porn use, exhibitionism, etc.), but the position that masturbation is sinful per se strikes me as arbitrary, unrealistic, unhealthy, and outdated.
Comment by Steve M — December 10, 2008 @ 10:33 pm
I think the ideas about sensuality (wearing sexy underwear, luxurious baths, chocolate, yoga, massages, etc) are outstanding. Add to the list being assertive about initiating physical contact with your friends. Do European-style cheek kisses or a hearty bear hug (or both) for greetings and goodbyes. In my opinion, our culture could use a LOT more of this.
I also think it would be good to get in touch with your sexual biology. I don’t want to step into the masturbation debate, but let me suggest some ways of getting in touch with your biology that don’t involve that. For example, the book Taking Charge of Your Fertility explains how to observe your menstruation and ovulation cycles using a variety of physical cues. Much of it is geared towards optimizing or avoiding conception within a sexually active context. But learning to observe your body’s cyclical patterns can bring a greater sense of pride and oneness with your body independent of [contra/con]ception purposes. One thing it explains is how to test your vaginal discharge. This is not masturbation any more than using tampons is masturbation (that is to say, not at all). If you haven’t already, it might also be valuable to basically give yourself a pelvic exam, just to be familiar with the organs. Who knows, this might prove critical someday in detecting if a disease or other problem arises. Again, this could be done in a completely clinical way that in no way could be considered to be masturbation.
My 2 cents.
Comment by anon for this — December 10, 2008 @ 10:48 pm
Yeah, I don’t so much think the cliff-driving example follows what I was going for in my driving analogy. This isn’t about getting permission to push limits, or pushing them regardless of permission, for me. I just want an honest ‘You’ve shown you’re trustworthy driving in other situations, so I’m going to trust you to drive wisely and safely in a thunderstorm’ kind of conversation and treatment about an adult subject because I am an adult and have had adult feelings that I’ve learned fairly well how to handle without going overboard with them over the past decade or so.
Jon, I also don’t get the reasoning for a double standard around a single woman masturbating vs. giving your wife permission to masturbate.
Comment by whirlygirl — December 10, 2008 @ 11:40 pm
re: 164
I think we need to recognize the difference between self-exploration (ie, exploration for the purpose of understanding her own genitalia and response, so she can better guide her husband) and self-gratification (ie, masturbation). It is a difference of intent, which is a legitimate difference (consider the difference between being enterprising and being greedy).
Comment by Derek — December 11, 2008 @ 12:42 am
Yeah, I get that.
Yeah, I get that too. Sincere and humble apologies for any offense caused here.
[…goes back to plucking the shrapnel from his smarting hide…]
Comment by Rich — December 11, 2008 @ 1:25 am
As a single, almost 40-year-old, this topic hits close to home. Let me start by saying that until 3 years ago I was perhaps the sexually purist person in the world for an adult… seriously. And I was fine with that. Honestly, I’ve never been completely sure if I wanted to get married. I had never liked/loved someone enough to want to have sex with them. It was never a strong drive. Something, I’m still not quite sure what it was, kicked in 3 years ago and I began to explore myself a bit. I learned two things through my experiences.
1. I honestly wish I had done this YEARS ago as it changed my whole perspective on myself. It freed me up to dress a little more va-voom (something I wonder if I had done years ago would have led to me being attractive to guys and thus perhaps married a long time ago). I now think that I would actually like sex… in fact, I’m sure I would, with the right person. So… a good result in my opinion.
2. Letting this genie out of the bottle did lead down what I consider a dangerous road. The temptation to dress more va-voom balanced on the edge of going too far and dressing trampy. Also, I did notice that after a while, the things that would set my off would not work and so the stakes would get raised. I ended up tampering with sites, etc. that were just leading further down a road that I knew I shouldn’t go (and that I didn’t want to go). A bad… and in my opinion, dangerous result.
About 8 months ago, I checked myself and pulled in the reigns. I’m very grateful that I did so before I went any further. I think this is where the exploration issue can be dangerous. It opens a venue that really isn’t open to me at this time. I don’t regret that 2 year period as it has opened my eyes, but I’m so glad that I stopped while I still could.
Comment by Anon — December 11, 2008 @ 1:37 am
I think Derek made a very good point about the spirit of intent behind the exploration. I’m not personally against self-gratification (married or single) but as Mary Magdelene also mentioned, it’s pretty evident when it goes too far. Even if we totally disregard what leadership opines, I know when something is not good for me on a personal level, when I’ve gone too far with the rope I’ve been given to hang myself.
I think there’s a continuum on the sexual meter. Prudish to deviant, with huge variations in between. Like anything else, people who try their best to live a spiritual life can identify what activities do not invite the spirit into their personal lives. Even that varies. When you do have a partner, you have no way of knowing if what turns you on will do the same for that person…no idea if what you want feels wrong to the other person and that has to be taken into consideration. So, you can learn about yourself as an individual but eventually, in partnership, like every other area of marriage, your individual expectations will be tempered by those of your mate.
I like the ideas that invite sensual experiences into the lives of single adults. There are so many ways to experience the subtleties of our individual natures…scents, textures, massage, yoga…so many great suggestions.
However, when I was single and divorced, I think it was the lesser of two evils to let off my own steam, rather than be chomping at the bit for every date, so to speak. It could have led to me thinking with the limbic area of my brain rather than the more rational area. Personally, I really could not have done the prolonged kissing suggestion…that would have been like trying to stop a steam engine…I probably would have jumped the guy in question.
I liked the tension of assessing the level of attraction on dates. It added spice to the experience. It also was very important to me that a man could control himself enough to have a conversation that was interesting out of bed, since that would be the majority of the time. Cherish the time you have to figure out what you need and want. Be gentle with yourself when you are sexually frustrated…it’s a very real and holy drive.
Strictly my opinion, but I never would have discussed this with my bishop. On an elemental level, I consider it a form of voyeurism and wouldn’t have seen it as any other person’s business to judge what is going on with me sexually, unless it involved adultery, in which case, affects my partner, against whom sacred vows had been broken. That would involve a bishop. My brand of vibrator is between me and the vendor.
Comment by Kimberly — December 11, 2008 @ 8:38 am
re: 165.
Ok, Derek, That distiction makes sense. I guess I read Jon’s post
Comment by whirlygirl — December 11, 2008 @ 8:57 am
oops….haven’t quite figured out this block quote thing!
Comment by whirlygirl — December 11, 2008 @ 8:58 am
And, I just realized that i wrote that Wendy Watson is Elder Oaks’ wife…she’s actually Elder Nelson’s new wife.
Comment by whirlygirl — December 11, 2008 @ 10:30 am
I think you are assigning causality where it may or may not exist. Two years of sexual activity is pretty typical for achieving orgasm, according to the scientific literature.
But a more important point is that from an LDS perspective, orgasm is not the “goal” or “purpose” of sex. Intimacy is. If they were having fun exploring each other during those two years, it certainly isn’t time wasted.
Because he gets to discover it with her. He gets to be the only one to make that happen for her. That is extremely binding and powerful.
Why would a happily married woman want to turn her back on her husband and rob him of his job?
Actually, it’s not “needless to say.” This is a matter of controversy in the scientific literature. There is no doubt that masturbation is the quickest way to bring a woman to orgasm. So if that’s all one cares about, fine.
But masturbation may or may not translate to a satisfying heterosexual sex life with a loving partner, which I think is the goal for most LDS couples. Following therpy that involves masturbation, some women can ONLY orgasm with masturbation, or perhaps only with a toy, if that’s what they become accustomed to. I think the issue is called “transference” in the literature.
For some it is an actual physical problem that a vibrator can build up scar tissue that actually makes the area less sensitive.
Comment by Naismith — December 11, 2008 @ 10:40 am
You can’t rationalize sin by claiming you have a right to do so or saying it frees you up. You can throw whatever personal evidence you have behind it, but wickedness never was happiness. You don’t need a man’s permission, you need God’s, and He’s been clear on the subject. Sexual matters are for a man and woman after marriage.
Comment by Jon — December 11, 2008 @ 10:44 am
I have nothing to say other than I used to think this way and now it gives me the creeps. I wonder if there is something wrong with me. But if the husband is the only one to make xyz happen for his wife, it’s likely xyz is not going to happen for a long time. And I don’t think that’s okay for most people. Women need to be able to help their partners along.
Comment by Minerva — December 11, 2008 @ 11:02 am
You can throw whatever personal evidence you have behind it, but wickedness never was happiness.
I don’t know how I can respond to such impenetrable logic!
I’m sorry, but I’m not sure that your subjective judgments of another person’s wickedness-to-happiness ratio is a particularly strong rebuttal to that person’s own life experiences.
You don’t need a man’s permission, you need God’s, and He’s been clear on the subject.
Has He?
Comment by Steve M — December 11, 2008 @ 11:28 am
mercy - say it isn’t so! his j-o-b?! does that mean it’s her job to figure out and teach her husband how he should climax? seems like too much pressure for either partner - and often it’s that type of pressure that leaves some couples … *cough* lacking in the fireworks department.
There’s much to be said for direct honest communication - “baby, I just love it when….” and then from there (together) folks can try the “since that is so yummy, I wonder what happens if we do this….”
this life is too short and the eternal life too long to wait around for someone else to figure out “what works.” Carpe diem. Sexuality is not a four-letter word nor should we treat it as such.
It’s a great life out there beyond the front door - enjoy it with me.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — December 11, 2008 @ 11:37 am
BTW, for those who are interested, a great academic article on historical Mormon attitudes toward masturbation is–
Mark Kim Malan & Vern Bullough, “Historical Development of New Masturbation Attitudes in Mormon Culture: Silence, Secular Conformity, Counterrevolution, and Emerging Reform.” Sexuality & Culture, Fall 2005, Vol. 9, No. 4, pp. 80-127.
I’ll excerpt a few passages from the authors’ Conclusion:
I would upload a copy of and post a link to the entire article, were it not for copyright reasons.
Comment by Steve M — December 11, 2008 @ 11:39 am
whirlygirl #132: Thanks for the quote from Elder Callister. That’s kind of the way my thinking has gone in recent years… but it sure was a long road. I agree completely… if only I could have known that ten years ago…
Comment by CoriAnton — December 11, 2008 @ 12:21 pm
I wonder if you’ll consider how sexist this sounds. Do we expect men to “graduate” to their first orgasm after 2 years of sexual activity? and call that healthy or realistic? Good grief. Heaven help us all.
Uh. If you’re making this argument, I’ll posit that the man’s orgasm is the “goal” or “purpose” - since from an LDS perspective, sex is meant for procreation. (If you want anyone to believe that the church thinks sex is just about intimacy, then why is gay sex so “wrong”?) Male orgasm kind of takes center stage if sperm is to meet egg (in the most traditional sense, of course).
And since a woman’s orgasm is proven to aid in conception - considering procreation is our actual “goal” or “purpose” - why aren’t we acknowledging the importance of her fulfillment? (Why is the sex act “over” as soon as he finishes? I hate to throw out the term “selfish lover” but when it’s all about the man’s “goal,” with no regard to the woman’s fulfillment, he’s just j**king off.)
Comment by hausfrau — December 11, 2008 @ 12:51 pm
I am so glad that I am not so conflicted about my sexuality and how I choose to express it. If I had to worry about all of this on a daily basis, I think I would be a nut.
Comment by StillConfused — December 11, 2008 @ 1:09 pm
Hausfrau #178.
Amen,
I may be in the male minority on this, but if I can’t bring my wife to her “goal” or “purpose” one way or another, it is hard for me to reach my “goal” as well. It can actually be frustrating for her sometimes, that I am so “goal oriented”
Whirlygirl,
there has been a ton of great advice in this discussion. Bottom line, get comfortable with your sensuous side, try some of the suggestions from the wise women on this site who understand and have personal experience in this realm.
I say enter that thunderstorm, the feel of the rain, wind, and thunder is exhilarating. Prayer will help you find the way through it.
Comment by Anonlurker — December 11, 2008 @ 1:18 pm
Anonlurker: you are not alone. Her’s is the best part, I think.
Comment by Observer — December 11, 2008 @ 1:36 pm
I am truly enlightened! I had never heard of men who have difficulty orgasming because his partner has not.
Does a woman ‘faking it’ make your orgasm more enjoyable? Do you know the difference? I am not being flip here, seriously. I am looking for further enlightenment.
Comment by bigmama — December 11, 2008 @ 2:02 pm
I was one of those women who took a few years to be reliably orgasmic. And I resent very much that anyone thinks my sex life during the first few years of marriage was “unhealthy.” It was wonderful, sweet and special. It was realistic to think that two LDS people could come together and have fun and get to know one another’s bodies. I would say more, but I am sure I will laughed at, and I don’t want to cast precious pearls before those who would denigrate our amazing and satisfying sex life.
And yes, it’s unfair that orgasm comes more easily to men than women. But then, it’s also unfair that men can’t have multiple orgasms the way women do.
We all join the church in different contexts, but when I joined during the Kimball era, it was taught that bonding and intimacy was a legitimate purpose of sex. Procreation is not the only purpose, or why would infertile people be allowed to marry? This really is a straw-man argument, since I can’t agree with that statement.
I think her fulfillment is important. Not just as an aid to conception. I’m simply suggesting that she can be fulfilled in the context of sex with her husband and doesn’t need masturbation (and there may be costs to that approach).
(Why is the sex act “over” as soon as he finishes? I hate to throw out the term “selfish lover” but when it’s all about the man’s “goal,” with no regard to the woman’s fulfillment, he’s just j**king off.)
I totally agree that a man’s “finishing” should not be the goal. When the couple spend time exploring each other’s bodies, that’s not gonna happen.
Comment by Naismith — December 11, 2008 @ 2:08 pm
bigmama (#182): sadly (or maybe happily?), I’m not aware of my wife ever having “faked it”. Given the way some of our sexual experiences have played out sometimes, and given her extreme honesty with herself and others, I would be comfortable guessing that she has never faked an orgasm. Lucky for both of us, she hasn’t ever had major problems reaching orgasm. There was no 2-month or 2-year waiting period people talk about. That’s not to say that she (and I) didn’t come to the marriage with our own set of sexual dysfunction (both virgins), but that’s part of building a relationship, I suppose.
And, to clear things up, its not that I _can’t_ without her, its just that I don’t really want to as much, because her’s is the best part. I certainly enjoy the release, but if she’s just going through the motions, its just not the same. Probably, I crave the intimacy and the knowledge that she is attracted to me enough to seek out such vulnerable physical interaction with me. That’s the biggest turn-on, I think.
Comment by Observer — December 11, 2008 @ 2:09 pm
I think an important thing to remember is that sex without orgasm isn’t *necessarily* unpleasant.
So, for example, someone like Naismith can have a two year warm up period and not feel like she missed out at all. Because she likely has a spouse that genuinely cares about her.
While others who are, perhaps, treated like a hole in the mattress may give voice to their dissatisfaction with sex by saying that they’ve never orgasmed. What they really mean is that their partner doesn’t care if they enjoy sex or not.
At the same time, some men (disclaimer- not necessarily LDS men) hang their ego on whether or not their partner has an orgasm. In these cases he only cares if she has an orgasm, not if she actually enjoys the experience. I would guess that having sex with these sorts of guys isn’t that great- even if he does actually bring you to orgasm- because is in mind it is all about him.
Orgasms aren’t what makes sex enjoyable,** a loving, thoughtful, and generous partner is. They are correlated, but not the same thing.
**they certainly help, though.
Comment by Starfoxy — December 11, 2008 @ 2:24 pm
#183 Naismith, thanks for clearing that up. I apologize for my quick reaction to what you said earlier. I should have chosen my words more carefully. I still stand by my point, but I hope you know that I never meant to imply that all sex without orgasm is unhealthy or even unpleasant, and certainly not that the intimacy of sexual relations can’t bring a person great enjoyment unless everybody gets their Big O. (Heaven knows I don’t require O every time, and neither does Mr. Hausfrau.) I sincerely apologize if you feel that sharing a personal anecdote would be like “casting pearls.” Please, soften my heart on this and open that door. Teach me. If there’s one thing we all share in common about our sexuality, it’s that it’s uniquely personal.
What I was hoping to point out is that (historically, culturally, traditionally) women’s enjoyment of sex has been so downplayed, marginalized, trivialized and even demonized that we’re still allowed to think it’s okay that women can go their whole lives without experiencing an orgasm, or that we should be happy with the one or two we manage to achieve after years of working for one. To me, that’s sad and disgraceful on so many levels. Are we free to discuss this in our families, our communities, our wards? I wish we could encourage the education, exploration and frank discussion necessary to facilitate women’s liberation in their own bedrooms, without the labels. (We need to include our husbands and sons in this too, of course.)
My argument that Mormons are taught that sex is just for procreation wasn’t meant to be a straw-man. I was highlighting the ridiculousness of that counsel. I lament that it is still used as an excuse to sway certain people from experimenting with or enjoying their own sexuality. To be clear: I’m infertile and I wouldn’t dream of giving up sex just because it’s “futile.” Nor would I ever presume to tell anyone that non-procreational sex acts are an abomination. I’m the first to tell you there’s way more to it than that.
Comment by hausfrau — December 11, 2008 @ 3:20 pm
bigmama (#182)
Much like Observer, I can safely say that my wife hasn’t “faked it” with me. She was aware of what buttons I needed to push and how I needed to push them from day one.
Having said that, when she is not going to be able to reach orgasm for one reason or another, she knows what to say and how to say it to still get me to my goal.
Originally I think it may have been an ego thing as Starfoxy suggests, but I have gotten over that mostly. At this point I just love the feeling of being in harmony with my wife and being a true partner in our act.
When all is in harmony we both enjoy the road as much as the destination
Comment by Anonlurker — December 11, 2008 @ 3:28 pm
I have nothing substantive to add, but I do want to mention how good it has been to read this thread and the comments in it.
Comment by Ray — December 11, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
I’m with Ray. Enjoying reading all the comments. The only thing I’d like to add is in regards to # 183: And yes, it’s unfair that orgasm comes more easily to men than women. But then, it’s also unfair that men can’t have multiple orgasms the way women do.
Going against the grain here a little bit- but actually men can have multiples the way women do. There is a long standing tradition of yogic practice that involves this exact thing. There’s also plenty of literature out there on it. ie… The Multi-Orgasmic Man: Sexual Secrets Every Man Should Know. It may not be as easy as for a woman to have several (at first), but it is definitely possible, and is also thought to be an important part of practice in some systems of thought. Part of the reason it is considered to be such an important thing to learn to master (again in some belief systems) is because it can also act as a form of birth control… If there is release without ahem, release, if you catch my drift. Anyway, food for thought.
Thanks for all the great insights.
Comment by moksha — December 11, 2008 @ 6:44 pm
While we are discussing all things bedroom — Men are under the (mis)conception that women like it to last a really long time. There have been times when I am getting tired/bored/whatever after a marathon session. While a certain amount of time is needed for a woman to have enjoyment, I reach a point where enough is enough. (Like the two hour mark — come on, there are other things to do). Anyone else have this come up?
Comment by StillConfused — December 11, 2008 @ 7:06 pm
#189 Moksha - my Mister has experienced multiples. I don’t recall it being that mythical (although it was very fun) so I’m given to believe it doesn’t merely require tantric conditioning. In fact, it’s not complicated or elusive at all. I’m sure it’s in your book, but for the uninitiated, get thee to a local Pure Romance or Slumber Parties rep (they’re all over the place; just ask your neighbor) to learn how to work this “release without release” wonder in your own feminist mormon household today! (I think I should spare fMh readers any how-to details.)
LOL at #190 StillConfused — I think we all have those moments from time to time. After 2 hours, I’d be reorganizing my bookshelf from across the room. Sometimes, if you ain’t feelin’ it, it ain’t happenin’. I’d say, go have a snack and try again later.
Comment by hausfrau — December 11, 2008 @ 7:46 pm
#191 Well, I do know quite a few women who’d like it to last more than 5 minutes.
Sure. Especially if I’m tired…I’m all for the shortcuts. A leisurely session isn’t always possible with kids in the house either. Sometimes efficiency makes for the most opportunity. Two hours? I’m with you there. I think I’d get out the jumper cables.
Comment by Kimberly — December 11, 2008 @ 8:15 pm
oh god, 2 hours? i’m hurting just thinking about it.
sorry folks, resume conversation.
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oh, sometimes i miss this place.
Comment by mfranti — December 11, 2008 @ 8:24 pm
That two hours includes dinner out, yes? Then the ride home and the whispered, “I’m just gonna go slip into something more comfortable” and foreplay, yes?
Two hours of in-ter-course?? ouch ouch ouch and salute to the stamina of youth and triathletes!
where’s my diet coke?? have a great rest of the evening - it’s never too late to start your day over.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — December 11, 2008 @ 10:01 pm
Mary Magdalene, I love your attitude and how you always have something zippy to say at the end of a comment. I seriously think it is so awesome.
Sorry to go all cornball but it had to be said!
Comment by lemon drop — December 12, 2008 @ 12:26 am
This seemed relevant
Comment by Rich — December 12, 2008 @ 1:49 am
References? I’m not saying it’s not true, but it seems . . . rather sad. Of course orgasm isn’t the (only) teleology of sex, nor do I happen to think it the most important one, and thus sex could serve many lovely purposes even devoid of orgasm. Still, 2 YEARS? It would seem like women who don’t share our belief in a spiritual side to sex, or in its purpose within marriage, would give up long before then.
I do know women who say their sex lives are quite fulfilling even though they don’t ever orgasm, but I’d always assumed they were in the minority. I really would be interested in seeing sources.
Comment by Janet — December 12, 2008 @ 2:52 am
Whirylgirl,
I think the answer to your question (and what most people are telling you) is that there really *isn’t* a way to have both sides of your being (sexuality & spirituality) equally honored and fullfilled at this time in your life. I don’t think you need to repress your sexuality or ignore it, but I don’t think its necessary to physically “honor” it either. I think its great to be prepared for marraige sexually, to know what its all about, have healthy attitudes about it, etc…but the real exploring is just going to have to wait for marraige. Only within those bonds can you fully explore it while truly honoring it, and still respecting and maintaining your spirituality. I like Minerva’s suggestions also.
I also think when you mentioned hearing masturbation as “equal to murder”, you opened up the can of worms. I dont think anyone went astray from your question by addressing that ending comment as well. I do not agree that masturbation is akin to murder, nor do I think any Bishop worth his salt would think that either. But having said that, I don’t think it makes it “okay” either. I have spent time as a single woman between marraiges (divorced and then remarried later) and it was really hard to set aside that part of my being for awhile. I made mistakes, I slipped up, but in the end I decided I wanted to be worthy of a temple marriage and I stopped everything (and I do mean *everything*). It is possible, and it doesn’t have to be “unhealthy” or repressive in the process.
In the end, I think you just have to accept that by truly honoring your sexuality, you’re going to have to control it at this time and wait until marriage to fully explore it.
ps: I also do not believe it is necessary for a woman to learn how to orgasm before entering marraige for her to have a fullfilling sex life. That is something that can be accomplished within marraige and with your husband.
Comment by sb — December 12, 2008 @ 8:13 am
Okay, I am getting a bit tired of having this described as “sad” or “just warming up” and so on. As if it wasn’t the “real thing.”
One of the reasons it amuses me is that in my 30 years of married sex, I’ve gone through many changes in the intensity of orgasm, etc. Yes, one of them was in the second year of marriage, after the birth of our child, when I started having an orgasm reliably. But another came 15 years later. And another came about 26 years into the marriage. So was I “just warming up” for 26 years? I don’t think so. I think it was all very wonderful.
As far as references, keep in mind that there are huge methodological debates over what constitutes an orgasm, and how representative samples are.
I haven’t looked at this literature in years, but of course the first classic was Kinsey’s 1953 classic SEXUAL BEHAVIOR IN THE FEMALE. I think they found that only around 40% of women had orgasms regularly by the end of the first year of marriage. But the good news was that it improved over time.
In the mid-1970s, Redbook magazine did a massive survey, and while the sample was just whoever responded, they hired solid sociologists to design the instrument, analyze the data, and ultimately write a book out of it, which showed their findings were foreshadowed by Kinsey and others. And other researchers have tried to replicate and found similar results.
This was important because it showed how satisfying the sex lives of monogamous religious people are–got quoted a lot in lots of churches.
It stuck in my mind, because they mentioned that religious women who had abstained from sex before marriage took longer to get started but were very happy with their sex lives. That stuck with me when I married, and I wasn’t in a big hurry to “achieve the goal.” If I had been more focussed on orgasm, I probably would have. But it wasn’t a huge priority; I figured everything would happen in due time, which it more than did.
I think the Redbook study showed that lots and lots of women outside our faith do share our belief in a spiritual (not religious per se) side to sex.
I agree, it is a minority. But it is a nontrivial percentage. I think 30% in the Redbook study.
Also, we should be careful not to compare apples and oranges; “never orgasmed” and “not regularly” are two different stats.
Comment by Naismith — December 12, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
I think the best solution to this is to go find a good man you are attracted to, kiss him, and enjoy it. While you should of course wait to go all the way, I see no problem with enjoying making out, and acknowledging sexual attraction.
Comment by Portia — December 12, 2008 @ 4:13 pm
It has never made sense to me to be taught that it’s not okay to touch and enjoy my own body but it’s okay (within marriage) for someone else to do it.
As a divorced woman who enjoyed an active sexual marriage for twenty years, it seems unrealistic to now deny myself that aspect of my womanhood.
I fully respect and honor not having a sexual partner while being single, however, becoming asexual is not a viable alternative either.
And as some posters commented, if you never allow yourself a release, you will become obsessed by it.
Other than that you have to turn off all sexual desire all together.
Neither sounds appropriate to me. If I turn off my sexual desires, then why would I then have the desire to find a husband? If I don’t turn off all my sexual desires and don’t release them, then I can drive myself and everyone around me crazy.
As a woman, I don’t want to be told that I have to leave that aspect of myself behind.
Embracing my womanhood means embracing that as well. No, masterbation is not as fullfilling as a sexual relationship with another human being, but it’s better than nothing.
And I am not convinced that yoga and badminton will satisfy the desires.
And really, if I am not commiting fornication or adultery, then is it really my bishops business what i do in my bed? In fact if a bishop dared ask me that question I would be shocked and think it a highly inappropriate conversation for me to have with another woman’s husband.
Comment by Anna — December 13, 2008 @ 4:40 am
Anna - I like your style. Thanks for commenting.
What an awesome weekend we have in front of ourselves sisters and brothers. make it a good one.
Comment by Mary Magdalene — December 13, 2008 @ 8:22 am
I am not Mormon but live in Utah. I was brought up to believe that masturbation was a natural part of being a sexual creature. I have used it throughout my life as a pleasurable part of relaxation at bedtime, part of sharing love with my husband and have always viewed it as normal. It saddens me that young healthy men and women are, as I feel, hung up about this topic. I had no idea until I read this forum tonight how you really struggle with your beliefs. May you all come to a peaceful understanding that this is perfectly ok with our Lord! Bless you all out there.
Comment by Annie — December 13, 2008 @ 8:33 pm
As usual, I’m posting way after this discussion is over, but FWIW . . .
WhirlyGirl, how you experience sexuality will be different from how anyone else experiences it. Enjoy and savor the sexual feelings that you have without going to extremes. Whether you masturbate or not is between you and the Lord; how you express your sexuality and what the proper boundaries are is between you and the Lord (and someday, you, the Lord, and DH). When I was single, one thing that I did (and still do) to express sexuality is pretty underwear, in particular pretty bras. But I am a very girly girl and that sort of thing is not for everyone. I recently was shopping with my SILs (DH’s sisters) on Black Friday. We walked past this HUGE line to get into Victoria’s Secret in the mall — one of my favorite stores and one we don’t have in my town. Just as I was about to say, “Oh, let’s go to Victoria’s Secret and try on bras!” my SILs started making fun of the women in line. Neither of them is into that sort of thing, and one of them is a newlywed, no less. I told my husband and he just laughed and said his sisters are tomboys. He is partial to me, regardless, girly girl that I am.
My point, though, is that what makes you feel sexy might not work for someone else; there is some self-discovery that must go on here. And I agree with the others that you’re not going to discover it all by yourself. But you can have a general idea what you like and what makes you feel pleased and sexy before you find and marry DH.
Comment by calico1cat — December 15, 2008 @ 9:24 pm
I find all of the opinions here really interesting. I’m so glad to have found this venue. It’s great to see people discussing LDS issues and related topics in a candid and relevant way.
I just thought I would mention that in the strength for youth pamphlet (getting back to the basics here) it does say that arousing those feelings within your own body is a sin. On that note, I do agree with many others here who have noted that on the “sin scale” this would rank very low. HOWEVER, I do seem to remember being taught that our goal should not be “how bad can we be” before having to confess to the bishop, for example, but “how GOOD can be we”. Of course no one is perfect, and of course we will do things that we might later regret or try not to do again, but generally when it comes to this issue, it would seem that although it is definitely not equal to murder, it is still something we should try to avoid. If you do it, I don’t think you’re condemned forever, just like you’re not going to be if you swear, or if you’ve ever gone to a movie on a Sunday. Again, these are comparatively “small sins” next to, say for example, cheating on a spouse, but that still doesn’t make them okay and doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t do our best to avoid these things if we want to be following church counsel.
As for being single and not ignoring your “sexual side” I really like the suggestions made here as well. Sex is often made to seem sinful and bad, not only within the church. Children, even in non-LDS families, are never spoken to about sex and parents treat this topic like it is something dirty and wrong so that kids will avoid it. I really don’t think that this is the way that it should be. I don’t know what the alternative is exactly, but there’s got to be something.
As for some of the earlier postings, NO, I do not think that chastity is equivalent to asexuality. Chastity is recognizing that you have sexual urges and still feeling those things, but controling them until they can be expressed in the way the Lord created them to be expressed. I don’t think Heavenly Father ever wanted us to ignore the fact that we have sex organs until we get married.
Anyways, one very simple suggestion for being single and sexual is to just take a peek at the lingerie section every once in a while. Maybe just in passing, or if you’re feeling brave take a look through and even try stuff on with the idea that “when I get married, this is the type of stuff I want to buy”. Shopping for this stuff can be embarassing at first, so it doesn’t hurt to get some practice at it, and to get comfortable feeling sexy and unashamed in that type of stuff (as long as you don’t go parading around in public in it afterwards).
Comment by stbmj — January 27, 2009 @ 5:02 pm
I just had another thought, and I would love to hear what some other posters think about this.
If we believe that God created our bodies, then we believe that God created the desire for sexuality as well. Thus, he created these feelings for the purposes of both procreation and as an expression of love and intimacy between husband and wife. It would seem to be that the world, who doesn’t understand this concept, views sex to be a desire equatable to say, eating or going to the bathroom, a natural human function that needs to be fulfilled. To the world, sex for the purposes of intimacy and love between married partners is a nice benefit, but it isn’t the main purpose. So if Heavenly Father gave us this desire and this aspect of ourselves, if we love him and believe in his doctrine, shouldn’t we agree to use it for the purpose it was intended for? I hope that this is making sense, and I am truly not trying to be offensive to anyone who has a difference of opinion on this topic, but I just thought I would voice my thoughts.
Thanks, and feel free to share what you think
Comment by stbmj — January 27, 2009 @ 5:12 pm
I am 28 and in the same position as whirlygirl. I have found that educating myself through books and open discussion with friends has helped me reconcile and accept my sexuality. There is nothing wrong in educating yourself. As an added bonus, any time you do feel sexual arousal or have a sexual thought, this is normal and possibly something you should rejoice in. I would be more concerned if you had never felt any sexual feelings because there could be underlying medical reasons that you should look into. It is hard to be single for so long and live a chaste life. I completely empathize with what you are going through. The main thing that comforts me, (and I say this as a woman who has not been on a date since she was 23 and never been kissed or had anyone hold her hand) is knowing that sex is a sacred thing and beautiful under the right circumstances and something I want to experience in my life, but only with my husband. Most of my friends are married and have been very open with me about certain aspects of sex. One very good friend said that while it feels great, and you probably would achieve that great feeling through masturbation, nothing can imitate the intimacy that you feel to the Lord and to your spouse when you are sharing your body with the person you chose to spend eternity with. I have another single friend who tried masturbation and she said that while it felt good in the moment, all it really did was give her practical knowledge of what an orgasm was and how arousal felt in her own body. It did not satisfy the need she felt for intimacy through intercourse with a partner. She also said that she felt no shame in the act but didn’t have any desire to experience it again because she felt more lonely after she orgasmed than she did before.
Another thought that helps is this quote: “An intellectual is a person who has discovered something more interesting than sex.” ~Aldous Huxley
We are bombarded with sexual everything no matter where we go. And because I have chosen to remain chaste and not engage in sexual activity outside of marriage I am frustrated. But that doesn’t make me a bad person and sex is not a bad thing. Learn to love yourself. Be grateful and appreciative of a body that has been given to you by God and works the way it was designed to. But don’t obsess about the act. I agree with those who posted about getting in touch with your senses through massage, yoga, meditation, etc… That is the best way to celebrate who and what you are without allowing your body to control you. It is not easy but know that you are not alone in your desires to acknowledge that sexuality is a part of who we are. Thank you for your question because I have been struggling with the same issues and those who posted comments helped me a lot.
Comment by treegirl — March 15, 2009 @ 3:33 am
Gee, I had a Mission Preisdent where it was about a 75 on that scale. At virtually every Interview he ask the male missionaries about it. Yes, his prerogative, but I wish he had also pushed some other issues as well.
Comment by Mike H. — June 16, 2009 @ 11:26 pm
So glad to see others have issues with this.
I was married for 20plus years and am having a very difficult time with my sexuality being cut off. Dating is VERY difficult as once you get too involved it’s hard to know how to draw the lines…never had to do it before. So then it is hurry and get married or get excommuncated or quit dating and stay single?
Of course, the men are a problem too…either not interested in waiting or way too creepy…so being alone is very probable…which means sex never again?
And then to add insult to injury I have to talk to my bishop to ‘confess’ my indiscretions only to be ‘disciplined’ like a naughty girl. This is all so humiliating and degrading. And he did ask me if I masturbated and made me feel like I was a slutty whore. I used to be a righteous relief society member who held a calling and now I’m not allowed to take the sacrament, say a prayer, hold a calling…I feel unacceptable. As if the divorce didn’t destroy my self esteem enough…the church culture sure isn’t helping.
My biggest problem with the ‘mormon culture’ is that nothing is consistent from bishop to bishop. Some are ok with things that others are ready to excommunicate you for. How is this right or fair? I’m to the point where I want to lie and avoid…or leave the church…hardly Christlike behavior. But I actually believe it’s true and want to live it so I am in a conundrum.
Comment by maria — October 28, 2009 @ 5:39 pm
Maria #210:
I think it is confusing that consistency in policy doesn’t exist among all church authorities, whether about masturbation or sex or any issue. But, it’s up to each leader to rely on the Spirit to offer the most appropriate advice.
My totally biased and unbalanced opinion is that you should do whatever you need to maintain your sanity, and keep yourself on track. If masturbation is your outlet, so what? Just do it and for heaven’s sake don’t tell those who will get riled up about it. It’s personal anyway, and no one else’s business, but your own or those you decide to share it with. Enjoy!
Comment by Bonez — December 13, 2009 @ 1:54 am
Ardis E. Parshall wrote:
Why would you choose to view any film that wasn’t “Citizen Kane”? Why would you own any vehicle that wasn’t a Lincoln? Why would you eat any meal that wasn’t Kobe beef?
Not that it addresses any matters of morality or spirituality, it’s precisely this kind of oversimplified false analogy that only serves to foment deeper questioning without ever helping to resolve doctrine and rationale beyond sheer mandate.
Should the worthy consist only of the “simple” faithful, those whose obedience exists from blind acceptance, or should there not be the pursuit of “enlightened” acceptance whereby doctrine becomes more than mere mandate, it becomes the rational, understandable, embraceable foundation of spiritual existence?
To paraphrase a previous poster, why would anyone want to settle for a counterfeit?
Comment by Marveline Ashare — December 17, 2009 @ 1:22 pm
Wow, I’ve sat here and read every response — I didn’t see anybody quite like me… postmenopausal, always enjoyed a healthy sex life with my spouse up until the past few years. Feeling tremendous guilt at not being “in the mood” with my dh and in order to get there, now needing toys and self-stimulation to make sure things are still working down there! I think I’m still part of the “good girls don’t” generation and also an oldest child… dreading my next TR interview. I’m not really asking a question or have anything earth-shaking to say, other than I have felt very alone and unworthy. I’m not sure if I can honestly say I feel better about it. I don’t know if I can allow myself that. Sometimes I am so ashamed I can’t bear to even pray about it. I know that is wrong… I am very glad that I found this board though. Thank you all for your honesty.
Comment by Mother of all guilt — May 20, 2010 @ 7:43 pm