My Mormon History: Mormon, Feminist, Housewife

By: fMhLisa - May 26, 2005

Get yourself a big cup of Postum, I have a feeling this is going to be a long one. (and I was right, you might as well give up now)

I was born and raised Mormon in a southern Utah town settled by Mormons, by third/ fourth/fifth Generation Mormon Parents. My parents had eight children and took us to church every week, even when we went on vacation. We read the scriptures every morning, held family prayer every night, and I’m sure you know how we spent Monday Evenings. They were active in the local Republican party and I grew up hearing wonderful things about Rush Limbaugh and Dr. Laura.

But having said all those orthodox things about my parents, they’re still a bit unorthodox in some ways. They watch the occasional “R” rated movie, but feel guilty about it. They let me go to the Prom two weeks before my 16th birthday (I don’t think they felt guilty about it, but the guy was an Eagle Scout).

Another unorthodox thing that formed me I think was that my mom is a very “aggressive” woman (as the church lingo goes), she has a strong personality that doesn’t always blend with cultural expectations. I admire this in her, even if she doesn’t generally admire it in herself. She would call herself “feminist in some ways” but rejects the label (as many of you do) because of both the negative connotations it receives in our culture (in church and out) and also I think because she does not admire her own strength.

I am the youngest and only liberal off-spring. How did I get this way? I’m not exactly sure. Maybe I’ll just ramble on until I figure it out.

As a teenager, I always very religiously inclined and very interested in politics. I was enthusiastic about seminary and young Republicans. (I was a geek.) But some things would stick in my craw, and are still stuck there, I guess, because I remember them all these years later. So I assume these experiences, these bits of memories, are the things that formed me into who I am today. A Mormon, liberal, feminist, housewife. I’ll share some of them with you.

As a teen, I did everything, EVERYTHING that is expected of a perfect Molly Mo. (except perhaps the submissive quiet thing. I don’t think I’m formed that way.) I attended all the meetings, did all the programs, prayed and read my scriptures, and all with a smile on my face. I glowed with good will and enthusiasm for all that I’d been taught was right and good.

Meanwhile, a lot of little questions ate at me. Silly questions, but things that called my orthodox mindset into question. Things I could not dismiss. Things like nudity. Could people running around naked in the Amazon really be sinners? I’d see them walking around acting normal on National Geographic specials, and it didn’t seem to me that they should have to put clothes on to be ‘good’ people.

And then the summer of my sixteenth year, I went to North Carolina to stay with my brother and his young family for a few months. This was the first time I’d ever been around black people. And I remember VIVIDLY my brother making definitive statements (he did that a lot back then, but he’s matured since) about black skinned people being “less righteous” in the pre-existence. And I remember thinking that I should believe this. Tentatively believing this, but it ate at me. (the humanist me that must have been buried somewhere under that orthodox me)

And the horrible empty ashamed feeling I felt when I’d vocally and enthusiastically condemn anyone who didn’t agree with me and the Gospel and Republicans and Truth.

And the question that bothered me the most (the resolution of which probably changed me most as I sought an answer over the next decade) started in a high-school history class. The ubiquitous (yet always profoundly disturbing) documentary about the holocaust. And the question every person has asked themselves. If I had been German then, what would I have done? Would I have embraced the propaganda, and ignored or dismissed or justified the ugly truth?

I wanted to believe that that deep in my heart I was really a good person, and no chance of birth would have changed that. And yet . . . I could not know. And I agonized over it.

I didn’t know this at the time but I think one of the reasons I agonized lay in those small silly questions, like nudity and racism. The questions where I ignored obvious truths based in logic and humanism, and instead choose to “believe” the things I’d been told to believe. (the reason I put quotation marks are not to denigrate belief, only the kind of belief I employed)

And this is going to sound like the dumbest thing, but I remember (again vividly) going back to Utah and sitting behind Russ, a boy whom I thought very cute and a little but dumb (cute was more important back then), and something was said in class about African-Americans (can’t recall what), and my thought (silently in my head, thank goodness) was that they were less righteous. And Russ suddenly had a rant about racism. “I hate racists.” Or something just that obvious and simple. And it was like a light went on. And I was just sick, guilty, ashamed for my thoughts. I didn’t want to be the thing that Russ hated. I hated it too. And still . . . I worried that I had to believe such ugly ugly things. My brother said so. Believe, submit, obey, accept, I thought that was the only good way. And back then for me it was an all or nothing package.

And when the Gulf War started, I sang “I’m Proud to be an American” at the top of my lungs with the other Utah hicks. And I felt this giddy excitement that there was a War. Because maybe war-life would be noble and romantic and we would all live out scenes from Memphis Belle. And my common sense was ashamed of every smidgen of that excitement. Because people were going to die now.

And then there was that warm fuzzy feeling that I’d always called “the spirit”, and it confused me. Why would I feel “the spirit” while reading about the Freedom Riders? Civil Rights had nothing to do with the eternal truth of the Gospel. I only wanted to feel “the spirit” at church, or when reading churchy things. It made me angry and confused to feel it listening to non-mo music, or books, or movies, or classes. Or during the waterfall scene in The Last of the Mohicans. (which I felt guilty for watching anyway!)

So the warm fuzzies no longer counted. I needed a real witness and I set out to get one. I read the scripture and prayed and double the righteousness output.

(Update: Now I do think that the warm fuzzies count, just not in the limited way I expected it to in my rigid thinking at that time. I just had to learn to think about it differently.)

And I was getting older, seventeen, eighteen. And I voted for the first time for George HW Bush with a warm glow that all was right in the world. And I was shocked! Shocked to wake up in the morning to that Bill Clinton guy!

And the questions really started to add up. A Sunday School teacher who taught us that “Nothing Good came out of the Women’s Lib Movement.” And even as stoutly conservative as I was, my jaw still hit the floor. And it mystified me, could a truly righteous man stare the facts in the face and really believe that. Really?

I was (not sure why) fascinated by Women’s history, and the Civil Right Movement. And as I read more deeply my initial impressions of distrust in “movements” and all those connected to them, grew slowly into admiration and a longing to emulate those brave enough to create movement.

And as I hit nineteen and inched toward twenty it really started to bother me that I had never received my revelation of the Truth. I became determined to receive my witness, the one I’d been waiting for as I grew. Knowing it would happen if I asked in faith, nothing wavering. And I lived righteously, kind and caring and orthodox and believing and smiling at everyone. And still no witness.

And the older I got the more disturbed I became by this lack. I prayed every night, poured out my soul. I studied my scriptures every single day for years, without fail. And I prayed. And prayed. And hoped.

I wanted to believe. I wanted to know as others knew. And I kept my doubts locked up inside because I was ashamed that I’d never received the gift all those I loved took for granted. But as time went on, this revelation did not come.

And as I learned more about the substance of what a Democrat or Republican really believed, I found myself stubbornly arguing Republican, but with a sick heart. I hadn’t really understood. And the more I learned the less opinioned I became.

And I met the cutest Man on the planet, and he loved me. And we talked about my indecision about politics and he didn’t really care about politics much, but he had an open mind, and it was all good. And I was honest too, about my waiting for a witness, and my prayer and hope and longing. And he believed in me and in the Gospel and it didn’t worry him.

Then, I don’t know quite when or how, but I shifted all my pathways of thought. And this changed everything.

I opened myself up wide and let everything in. Sifting through it carefully, honestly, and only then allowing myself to weigh it.

(Whereas before, I only let in the things I wanted to believe, the things that fit the picture I wanted to make. Rejecting everything else, or forcing it to fit where I wanted it to. Lying to myself.)

(Update)
(I just realized that Part of it was dh’s influence. Every time I stated opinion or ‘fact’, he’d ask me “how do you know?” and this drove me crazy! Why didn’t he just listen to me and believe me because I’m always right. But he never let up, and pretty soon I was thinking about it, how did I know? And often I found I that I didn’t know, or I’d based my opinion in some unsupportable assumptions or plain old wishful thinking. )

And I realized, I did not really believe that unregulated factories in Mexico were a good thing for the workers who never knew it so good. Charles Dickens and the story I’d just read of the six-year-old getting her hair yanked out by machinery, broke that illusion but good.

I admitted my interest in Women Rights. And I owned up to my outrage at female literacy rates in Afghanistan. And I no longer felt the need to justify flat-taxes.

I was almost twenty and I felt too young to get married but after dating for a year, it had to be marriage or sin. And I probably could’ve lived with the guilt but it would’ve killed him.

And then it came time for the temple recommend interview. And it was really time for me to face up to a cold hard fact. And I told my bishop about my crisis of faith. I told him all of it, because I couldn’t say “I knew” only that “I hoped.” And he was a kind man, and a good man. And he wanted me to get married in the temple to my love. And he dismissed my crisis as being connected to a little health issue I was having, which I knew was totally off-base, but it was what he wanted to believe.

So I took the recommend and got married in the temple and I prayed that this would be the experience, that this holy place and this holy moment would finally lead the revelation I believed must come.

And I wept through the initiatory, in a good kind of shock I think, but the rest of it I found disturbing and disappointing. And I prayed and prayed and hoped but no moment happened in the celestial room. And life went on.

And then apathy started to creep in. I guess I’d reached my limit of caring, and hoping and believing. As long as I could remember I’d done all the right things, said all the right things, hoped the right things, and still I could not say I knew there was a God. I still went through the Molly Mo motions, but a little bit of the hope died every day.

But life was still good. My marriage was strong, and I had good friendships and a wonderful family. And pretty soon I was a full-fledged dirty liberal. And I voted for Bill Clinton and this time, I was not shocked when he won.

And I’d finally answered my holocaust question. I could never know what might have been, but I can know what I am now. Now I’m someone who is brutally honest with myself, who does not believe things because I am told to, who will not force truth into a mold convenient for my preconceived ideas, who will not hurt people for ideas. I am that person who could never sit by and passively witness or justify evil. I am the person my teenage self needed me to be.

And I was twenty-three and had pretty much decided it was time to declare myself agnostic. To throw up my hands and learn to live with my failure as a Mormon. I wasn’t bitter with the Church, it had been nothing but good for me. But there were too many unresolved questions and no reason to put up with all the crap if I didn’t even believe in God. I’d put off having children at least partly because I felt I needed to have this resolved before I brought a child into the world. And it was time to move on.

And here I should mention that along the way I’d met my best friend in the whole wide world, T, a liberal Mormon who was probably one of the biggest reasons along with dh that I stuck with the Church as long as I did. T and I went on a long trip together and talked and talked and talked. And when it came around to God and the church, I was finally going to say it. I. Don’t. Believe. In. God.

And I opened my mouth to do so and it got stuck right there. And I can’t really explain what happened. But I suppose it was what I’d been waiting for all those years. My heart pounded, my eyes watered, my brain blanked out, and I could not say those words. I even tried to convince myself that I was just being silly, that I wanted to believe so bad that I’d stopped myself.

But I couldn’t deny at that moment that there was a God. I knew there was. I knew.

121 Comments »

  1. It reads like you’ve paid attention to the Spirit more than you knew.

    Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — May 26, 2005 @ 6:34 am

  2. Wow Lisa. I appreciate all that you have written that is so personal and important to you. I think the same issues are a challenge for all of us — though each person might approach and experience these challenges in their own unique way. I like how your post ends on the positive note that you know there is a God. Thanks for sharing so much.

    Comment by danithew — May 26, 2005 @ 6:47 am

  3. Lisa, thanks for sharing your honest experience.

    Comment by Christian Y. Cardall (TSM) — May 26, 2005 @ 7:17 am

  4. I’m sitting her this morning wondering if I should click on delete. I feel really exposed. And silly too, to think anyone would care. The delete finger is really itching.

    Comment by Lisa — May 26, 2005 @ 7:39 am

  5. Thanks, Lisa. I think a lot of people, maybe most of us, at some point or other have a crisis of faith. I’m glad you came through yours stronger for it.

    I think questioning assumptions is an important part of growing up. In my case, I had parents who pretty much voted Democrat, although they wouldn’t talk about it very much, except when some crazy political candidate would campaign against the Department of Education (my dad’s a teacher), They didn’t talk about religion very much, either. In my case, it was a bit of a shock when I married into a strongly Republican family who discuss politics and religion (my father-in-law’s an institute teacher) all the time.

    (As an aside, although I know there are nasty, racist Republicans/Conservatives out there, there also exist very tolerant, kind people (and feminists) concerned with doing good on both ends of the political spectrum, my husband and in-laws among them.)

    Comment by Allison — May 26, 2005 @ 7:48 am

  6. 1 Nephi 8:33
    And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.

    Lisa, is the “delete finger” anything like the “finger of scorn”? I kind of like this concept of a finger of deletion. First time I’ve seen that term. Every time I read the quoted verse above I think of the people in the building “giving the finger” to Nephi and his family and others like him who partake from the tree of life.

    Comment by danithew — May 26, 2005 @ 8:01 am

  7. Don’t delete this, Lisa. You did good. I needed it.

    Comment by annegb — May 26, 2005 @ 8:29 am

  8. Heavens, Lisa, don’t delete. It’s haering experiences like this that make the rest of us feel we are not alone!

    Comment by Cathleen — May 26, 2005 @ 8:37 am

  9. Lisa: Your comments about the Holocaust reminded me of a similar moment of introspection for me. I was alive during the Civil Rights movement of the 60’s but too young to have any opinion about what was going on. I do remember that my parents and many other adults I heard talking about the issue were scared about what the coming changes might mean. I once asked myself which side of the issue I would have been on if I had been able to choose. I’ll never know, but the thought that I might have chosen to be on “the wrong side of history” is sobering to me and has haunted me ever since. I hope that thought process teaches me to be careful about such choices now. It is part of what has made me a “bleeding heart Republican.” I think Wallace Bennett of Utah voted with the Southern Dmeocrats against the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (I am not sure). But Everitt Dirksen, the Republican Senate Minority Leader, received the NAACP’s Man of The Year Award for his support in making the 1964 Act possible. (The Act would not have passed without support from Northern Republicans.) I try to be a Dirksen Republican.

    Comment by Lowell — May 26, 2005 @ 8:44 am

  10. Lisa: This is wonderful; don’t delete it. My favorite part is your spiritual crisis about people in National Geographic Movies. Classic! It is a wonderful reminder of the extent to which our spiritual crises are a bizarre mixture of the profound and the idiosyncratically absurd.

    Comment by Nate Oman — May 26, 2005 @ 9:02 am

  11. But who has a crisis of faith that lasts a decade? And I’ve never told this story to anyone but T and the dh, and now it’s on the internet.

    Squeek.

    Comment by Lisa — May 26, 2005 @ 9:26 am

  12. Thank you for sharing this Lisa. I’m going through something similar, and it is good to know that I’m not alone. It is good to know that perhaps there is a place in the church for wavering believers, after all.

    Comment by Sue M — May 26, 2005 @ 9:59 am

  13. Don’t even THINK about deleting! Your candidness here really resonated with me, and I’m sure others will feel the same way.

    Thank you for opening yourself up to us, as I know it puts you in a particularly vulnerable position. But there’s something about that vulnerability that makes us all love you even more. :)

    Comment by maria — May 26, 2005 @ 10:35 am

  14. Thank you so much Lisa - witnesses like yours are exactly what I need at this point in my life. Knowing some of the issues you faced reassure me that I will be able to live with some of the issues and concerns I have. Again, thank you.

    Comment by Hanna — May 26, 2005 @ 10:57 am

  15. I am moved.

    Comment by J. Stapley — May 26, 2005 @ 11:02 am

  16. If you delete it, we’ll repost it at T & S ;)

    This is too, too, good.

    We love you.

    Comment by Julie in Austin — May 26, 2005 @ 11:09 am

  17. Thanks for sharing this personal part of yourself with me, Lisa. To a large degree my testimony hangs on the existence of real people, and I feel the spirit when I see that people are *real* — that they’re like me — that they’re beautiful. Thanks for making yourself real to me.

    Comment by Matt Evans — May 26, 2005 @ 11:47 am

  18. “But who has a crisis of faith that lasts a decade?”

    Who? Many, many of us!! And I’m older than you, so I’m going on two decades of questioning. There is nothing wrong or weak about questioning and discovering — it means you are willing to search and accept answers that may or may not be expected. That takes courage and is nothing to be ashamed of! sarah

    Comment by sarah — May 26, 2005 @ 11:52 am

  19. I add my thanks to everyone else’s, Lisa.

    I really admire the courage that it took both to sincerely question in the first place, and now to recount your doubts and experiences for all of us. It is often easier to just go through the motions and hope for the best and pretend that we don’t doubt (and this method can have benefits a la experimenting upon the word), but I have found that my most valuable bits of testimony have arisen out of similar circumstances–when I’ve actively searched and internally debated, and, having reached my limit and given myself over to whatever IS, whether I like the answer or not.

    Don’t know if that sentence makes sense, but there you have it ;)

    Comment by Athena — May 26, 2005 @ 11:57 am

  20. “But who has a crisis of faith that lasts a decade?”

    Who doesn’t? Welcome to the club, Lisa!

    Comment by Mark — May 26, 2005 @ 12:20 pm

  21. Lisa,

    I felt like you were describing my life. Okay, so some of the details are different, but so much is the same. I went through the temple just before my mission and had such a crisis of faith in the months following that I seriously considered leaving my mission and the church and running away to the East Coast somewhere, where they have lots of liberal people and I could blend in and disappear. I was crying myself to sleep almost every night. But, like you, at the peak of that crisis, I also had a spiritual witness and the part that I CAN share on the internet is that what it finally came down to was that I knew God loved me and wouldn’t make me do or go through anything that wasn’t ultimately going to make me happy and that I knew this was God’s church. And because I knew these two things, I COULD NOT leave, as painful as it was and, sometimes, continues to be.

    I just had to learn to shelve the things I couldn’t deal with or reconcile. And some of my questions I’ve found answers to and some I have not. But I have learned that the gospel is a lot more flexible and open than it has a reputation for, either within or without the church organization.

    I will say I’ve had somewhat of a relapse since getting married and I am not as active in my heart as I appear on the outside. However, I am still learning and I feel that my relationship with God is getting closer and better. And whatever else I do or don’t do in my life, I will cling to that relationship and be true to both myself and God. That, to me, is the key to everything.

    One other thing–I think the harder the struggle, the more you learn and the stronger your faith becomes. One thing I realized on my mission, as I was searching for answers, was that the only way to have any real fathoming of Christ’s atonement was to have at least one “Abrahamic sacrifice” moment in one’s life, i.e., basically being willing to put one’s heart on God’s alter, let it be ground into hamburger, for a reason you don’t understand and every atom in your body is screaming, “this doesn’t make sense!! This hurts!!” At least, that’s how I imagine Abraham must’ve felt when he was going to sacrifice Isaac. He knew the “thou shalt not kill” commandment, he knew his son was precious and a miracle. And the ONLY reason he went through with things is because he knew God wanted him to. I think Christ’s sacrifice was the same way, only infinitely more agonizing, and yet he did it for love, because he loved his Father and because he loved us. He gave up everything. And I think when we go through these stuggles, even though they don’t come close to comparing, we get some glimpse of what that’s all about and we learn to commit as fully as He did.

    Comment by Artemis — May 26, 2005 @ 1:12 pm

  22. Sheesh, this is NOT the kind of thing I should be writing about at work. It really throws me off kilter….

    Comment by Artemis — May 26, 2005 @ 1:16 pm

  23. Lisa, just saw your update on you coming to a new understanding of the warm fuzzies. I’m someone who still struggles with understanding when and if they count; any chance you could share more of your current thinking on this? Also, did the final conclusive experience you mentioned involve the warm fuzzies, or would you say it was qualitatively different?

    Comment by Christian Y. Cardall (TSM) — May 26, 2005 @ 1:25 pm

  24. Lisa

    Don’t you delete! This is a GREAT post! There is absoultely nothing wrong with having a crisis of faith, it’s what helps you grow in the Gospel and strengthen your testimony.

    I have to admit I have never had such a crisis of faith, mainly, I think, because I have always been able to seperate the discrepancies I see in members of the Church and traditions, from the Gospel. I don’t understand everything of course, and being a rather liberal person myself, I don’t think that Heavenly Father has truly created the inequality and atrocities that seem so prevalent. I never believed that people of African descent were less righteous in the pre-existence, even when I first saw that in the original Mormon Doctrine. I knew that it was false (I have been fortunate, even with the imperfect upbringing I had, to have parents who were very non racist/non judgemental of anyone despite religion or skin colour or culture). There are still some things in Church History (mainly ancient) that I don’t quite understand, but having the knowledge that these things will be explained one day, I know that I can hang on until then.

    I think you did good. You really did. We have to question things. We are expected to (in spite of what some people think). It’s when we question that we get answers. :)

    Comment by Mary Siever — May 26, 2005 @ 1:26 pm

  25. Lisa, you rock. I’d say more but I’m typing 1-handed while I nurse the li’l one. Excellent post. Thank you.

    Comment by mindy — May 26, 2005 @ 2:05 pm

  26. Lisa,
    Thanks for being so open and honest about your experiences and doubts. I think we all tend to assume that no one else in the church has doubts, but from all the responses this post got, that doesn’t seem to be the case.

    Comment by Olivia — May 26, 2005 @ 2:54 pm

  27. Nice post Lisa, but I have to say that I think you were a little too hard on yourself about what you believed as a teenager, especially the part about African-Americans not being righteous in the pre-existence. You believed that, not because you are a bad person, but because somebody you loved and trusted told you that.

    It’s incredibly difficult to question something somebody that you trust tells you, and few people actually ever do it. And you were young, too–just starting to be aware of the world and getting your own bearings. The important thing is that you recognized the error of that particular teaching when you did. I would also say that it would be surprising, given that you were not interested in rebelling against your family for rebellion sake, if you went against what you had been taught any earlier. It seems that you came into your own just about when everybody does–when you became an adult and “put away childish things.”

    Comment by Heather O. — May 26, 2005 @ 3:27 pm

  28. I read something somwhere, I think it was Philip Yancey’s Searching for the Invisible God and he said that it is part of being a believer to question, and he sites many great spiritual people who question God’s existence. he said something like people who don’t care don’t question.

    Comment by annegb — May 26, 2005 @ 4:25 pm

  29. I must have been terribly unclear for you to follow my comment with a desire to delete.

    Civil Rights had nothing to do with the eternal truth of the Gospel. — except honoring and helping others surely does have a good deal to do with the heart of the gospel.

    a lot of little questions ate at me — what we would call the traditions or sins of the fathers (ever notice that no one ever talks about the problem being the sins of the mothers).

    Tentatively believing this, but it ate at me because it was false and you were listening to the Spirit more than you realized and it bore against the false.

    More than you knew.

    Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — May 26, 2005 @ 7:26 pm

  30. Stephen, It wasn’t you that made me want to delete, just my own squirmies.

    Christian those are great questions. I’ll try to do a post about all that when I get back. Sorry I don’t have more time now!

    And thanks everyone, for making me feel like less of a freak.

    Comment by Lisa — May 27, 2005 @ 12:19 am

  31. Thank you for helping me to feel less alone.

    I am currently having a similar crisis, over the last several months, and so I focus on doing what feels right, figuring that even if it’s all craziness in the end, it surely can’t hurt to have faith and try to be obedient and honest and kind.

    I am an active recommend-carrying member with four little ones who we raise in the gospel, but I question SO MANY things for myself. Maybe someday they will make sense to me. In the meantime, reading and conversing and learning is a good way to pass time and try to figure out where I fit into LDS culture.

    Kerri

    Comment by Kerri — May 27, 2005 @ 12:20 am

  32. Wow, no wonder you feel like deleting, that was very brave. It’s sure nice to hear, though. Thank you. I can really relate to many of your experiences. The part that touched me the most was the little phrase: “will not hurt people for ideas” I have a deep sorrow for this current willingness to hurt people in our country. I think that phrase speaks volumes about philosophy and what love, kindness and compassion is that I don’t have the words to articulate right now.

    Comment by Braidwood — May 27, 2005 @ 12:27 am

  33. For who else does it go on years and years? For many people. And for me. The gospel was true but irrelevant because it didn’t work. And like you I finally got it during an unusual chance to talk and talk and talk to a longtime friend.

    Comment by Johnna Cornett — May 27, 2005 @ 12:34 am

  34. Thanks for the story. It was a very open and honest story. I admire your honesty. I wish that my story had the same kind of ending. I hope that church members could show such openness and honesty when they are in church buildings. Everyone seems so perfect when they are at church. It would be good to have a general feeling of humanness in the classrooms with a spirit of sharing, openness and ‘honest’ discussion. Thanks again.

    Comment by bob — May 28, 2005 @ 4:14 am

  35. Great post, Lisa. One thing that struck me as I read your experiences and ultimate resolution was that your realization that you truly believed in God led you back to being a Mormon. There are many other beautiful religions who believe in and celebrate God, but don’t have the baggage of Mormonism. I find it interesting that most Mormons who doubt don’t convert to other religions, but continue to struggle trying to reconcile difficult issues like polygamy in Mormonism. It’s interesting that “just” a belief in God would make someone dedicate their lives to being a Mormon.

    Thanks for the post. I love reading this site.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 28, 2005 @ 7:52 am

  36. Stephanie, there are many, many people raised as good Mormons who grow up to find their beliefs pared down to just a belief in Christ, or just a belief in God, or even less–just a belief in being good, and they don’t stay Mormon. I’m one of them. I think Lisa’s experience of staying Mormon and raising kids to be Mormon while not believing in the unique claims of Mormonism–just in God–is very rare.

    Comment by B — May 28, 2005 @ 11:02 am

  37. B- I think it would be difficult to accept all the Mormon rules just because you believe in God. You don’t need to pay tithing, never drink alcohol, and attend church every Sunday for three hours to believe in God. I think many Mormons have difficulty separating their belief in God from their cultural and social Mormon practices. When you do separate belief in God from Mormon culture, the culture becomes less oppressive. I like to think that I’ve progressed spiritually to the point where I believe in God, but don’t believe in many Mormon social practices. I go along with them out of respect for my family and heritage (or if there are practical benefits, i.e., not smoking). I’ve often wondered how many Mormons are out there like me.

    Comment by Stephanie — May 28, 2005 @ 11:34 am

  38. I liked this post, Lisa. Glad you didn’t erase it.

    Comment by Tess — May 28, 2005 @ 11:46 am

  39. Hi Lisa. I have never been to this site before but from link to link to link somehow I landed in the middle of your post. I am truly touched. I am much older than you are (Vietnam was the war of my adolescence and yes, I was a bit of a hippie) and I am a convert who has dragged herself kicking and screaming through the back door of this church for more than 20 years and STILL . . . I am here. I read a lot of myself in your post, some of the same questions, many things sit uneasy on my heart. But there is no place that I feel comfortable sharing those doubts. I am rather renowned for being a liberal among my church friends. They tolerate it as though I am a misguided child. (As a convert I think I must have the advantage of being thought naive or a product of my “less righteous” upbringing. Who knows?) My youngest child who is almost 19 is far too right winged for my comfort and we joke about it together. But always in the end there is this: while there is much I don’t know, there are a few things I do and I know them surely and solidly in my heart because if I try to deny them, it simply will not come out of my mouth. I know God exists. I know He loves me. I know that I am His child. And somehow from that place, I know the Plan of Happiness is true. That’s about it. I don’t know much more than that. But I’m grateful for that much. Thanks for giving me a safe space to comment and for being so real.

    Comment by Debi — May 28, 2005 @ 10:09 pm

  40. Johnna, something you said struck me, when you said the gospel didn’t work. What did you mean? I have felt that way, as well, when I think I do everything they tell me to do and life still sucks 90% of the time anyway. I’m learning to roll with it.

    But I think it bears discussion: how do you tell if the gospel is “working?”

    Comment by annegb — May 29, 2005 @ 2:02 pm

  41. Stephanie–I have no problem living the Mormon “rules.” I do have a problem with certain beliefs, and some of the institutional practices. To give just a few examples, I don’t have to believe in gender essentialism, or support a patriarchal system, or apologize for polygamy if I just believe in being a good person. I prefer to be enthusiastically involved in institutions I can support wholeheartedly, rather than marginalized on the fringe of an institution I have mixed feelings about. It’s a personal preference. I’m fine with other people in similar situations making different choices.

    I would email this to you rather than take up space in the comments, but you don’t have email enabled: you can find people like you, who live as good Mormons live while not believing all that Mormons are expected to believe, at www.aimoo.com/newordermormon.

    Comment by B — May 29, 2005 @ 9:41 pm

  42. Just for a thought experiment, ask yourself if you could have put up with the rules that Moses brought to the Children of Israel?

    They look pretty silly to us, but they allowed for a cultural survival and non-assimilation of the people, so that there was a place for Christ to be born.

    Did they make one holy, were they essential to salvation? No. Was obedience to them part of what God asked of the people for purposes that came to fruition hundreds of years later? Yes.

    Often we are like five year olds who really believe that it is ok to talk to strangers or cross the street or have cake for breakfast. And it may well be perfectly alright this particular time.

    Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — June 2, 2005 @ 6:27 am

  43. And some of us are like five year olds who really think it’s a matter of life-and-death to not let the mashed potatoes touch the peas and not color outside the lines in our coloring book.

    Comment by B — June 2, 2005 @ 4:46 pm

  44. boy, i don’t know anyone having these feelings IRL. it’s nice to know that people who question exist. in the meantime, i will continue to nurture my own faith in the face of self-doubt.

    Comment by banana — June 6, 2005 @ 3:52 am

  45. banana, I’m sure you do know people having these feelings IRL. They probably just don’t tell you about it.

    Also, my belief in God isn’t my only point of faith, that was just a turning point. And that post was long enough so the rest I left unsaid.

    Comment by Lisa — June 6, 2005 @ 11:58 am

  46. I’m finally really reading all the comments and had to respond to this.

    “There are many other beautiful religions who believe in and celebrate God, but don’t have the baggage of Mormonism.”

    I don’t know enough about every religion out there to say this definitively, but I will say that I would be really really shocked to find a relgion without baggage. thinking, thinking, thinking. Nope baggage is the name of the game.

    Comment by Lisa — June 6, 2005 @ 3:22 pm

  47. “I think Lisa’s experience of staying Mormon and raising kids to be Mormon while not believing in the unique claims of Mormonism–just in God–is very rare.”

    Urp. I never said that.

    Granted my mormon beliefs are pretty unorthodox, but I do believe in many/most of the unique claims of Mormonism. Whatever those are, depends I suppose on who you’re talking to.

    Comment by Lisa — June 6, 2005 @ 3:25 pm

  48. Sorry, Lisa. I misunderstood. When I personally refer to the “too many unresolved questions and…all the crap” of Mormonism (as I often do, in pretty much those words), I speak of its unique claims. Its claim to uniqueness (the only true and living church on the face of the earth with which the Lord is well pleased, the only church with a priesthood that has proper authority to do ordinances in God’s name) as well as claims that are unique to it (Gordon B. Hinckley as God’s prophet, somehow more or different than everyone else who has a direct line to God through prayer). I’m sorry for projecting my meaning onto your words. But what are the “unresolved questions” and “crap” if not that sort of stuff?

    Yes, there is baggage that comes with every church. But the baggage is different in every church. When someone has a problem with the particular baggage that comes with a church, but no problem with God, it seems very logical to look for a church with different baggage because it may be an easier yoke. There’s also the home-church option (like homeschooling) or the no-church option.

    I’m not trying to talk you out of your choices, just trying to understand.

    Comment by B — June 6, 2005 @ 5:29 pm

  49. My questioning came much later in life–after the temple marriage, the children, my husband turning his back on us. Nearly six years later I question more than I ever have and wait and hope for that spark of truth that I’ve never seen or felt. It’s been 27 years since I was baptized and I still can’t say that I “know” the church is true. At this point, I can’t even say I think it is. -t

    Comment by Teresa — June 12, 2005 @ 4:22 pm

  50. thank you for so honestly sharing your life! It’s so nice to know that I am not alone in my… what is it? not really a struggle to know the truth, because I don’t feel a need to “know the truth”.
    the church has been “true” for me. That is something that I could never say to my Bishop at temple Interview time. In fact, I heard a chilling story last Stake conf. about someone who did profess a problem at the end of the interview and the interviewer “snatched the recommend back in the nick of time”. I attend church faithfully , fulfill my callings, pray and read the scriptures with much satisfaction and fulfillment and attend the temple. But I don’t believe the church is the “only true church”. Are temple recommends only for people that “know without a shadow of a doubt”?

    Comment by cathy — June 14, 2005 @ 9:29 pm

  51. Wow. That was exceptionaly real. I’m not a mormon or a woman, nor, I must admit, have I had the type strict religious upbringing that you had. I grew up in the suburbs of detroit. Nevertheless, but you connected with me nicely through your story. Honestly, it was a beautiful thing.

    This sort of thing restores my faith in all humanity. All people and all races. We need more of this in life.

    Comment by Vito — October 4, 2005 @ 4:52 pm

  52. I read your life history, and have heard the histories of severalother Mormon liberals, and can’t help but wonder why a drift towards liberalism is so often accompnaied by a drift away from the church.

    Comment by srosbach — December 5, 2005 @ 8:08 pm

  53. I personally think it may have something to do with the fact that there is no pre-set paradigm for liberal Mormoness. So when a person matrues, and finds that they are infact liberal and Mormon, it can be a challenge to figure out (without examples) for ones self, how to be both.

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 6, 2005 @ 12:19 am

  54. I am glad to have found this website. I went back to church for the first time in 6 + months yesterday.
    I have felt like I want nothing to do with an organization that looks the other way when children and women are being sexually abused by family members, that sides with the man who has been abusive to his wife, who doesn’t believe the woman, that is racist.
    On so many levels, human beings with their skewed perceptions have thier hands in the gospel of jesus christ. Their biases and frailties contribute to the doctrine and policies the church upholds. I can and can’t accept that at the same time. But for now I am going to continue with it because I realize that with out it life is too hopeless and meaningless and depressing. Even if the church isn’t true, it gives me a feeling of hope and happiness. I have to ask myslef if it’s just an easy road for me, being white I’m not confronted personally with the racist issues, but I am with the gender issues.
    Going to church and being part of sunday school discussions is hard for me because so often people say the most racist and sexist things. I can’t always speak up because I feel so embarrassed for the person who ignorantly makes the comment. It is so awkward. I’m working on tactfully being able to express myself without it belittling the other person. At the heart of all of this I feel so much like LIsa when she said how people are more important than doctrines and policies.

    Comment by k2 — December 19, 2005 @ 6:37 pm

  55. Welcome K2. Hope you’ll stick around.

    Comment by LisaB — December 20, 2005 @ 1:07 am

  56. K2
    Thank you. i too have had experiences with members making comments. Usually a good way is to ask a simple question or statement in reply. I feel there’s nothing wrong with saying something to the effect of- that statement bothers me, or Where are you getting this information? So far I haven’t lost any friends just gained understanding. It helps me understand why people can be so ignorant if i look sometimes at my own prejudgements and stereotypes of people. I think sadly to say we all have them and must change. If we love our fellow members we will help them love others. Sounds sort of cheesy, may be a little too ideally, but i have seen people change most of all myself. I hope you heard from President Hinkley on racism and several other general authoirites on stereotyping this April conference. I felt reassured. I hope as members of the church we will grow. Also just a comment for the website makers I recommend belle hooks book Feminism From Margin to Center. Ate that one up. KD

    Comment by KD — April 6, 2006 @ 9:42 pm

  57. “But who has a crisis of faith that lasts a decade?”

    Someone who is serious about having faith. Faith is often (and deliberately) confused with “submission to authority,” particularly in hierarchical, patriarchal groups. I do not think doubt is the enemy of faith, but some doubts are definitely the enemy of some particular Faiths.

    And these are indeed simple-seeming things, such as, say, body modesty emphasised to the point where amazonian natives must go to hell by definition for dressing in the way the climate demands.

    I had an interesting “crisis of faith” a couple of years ago. General Christian doctrine, of course, states that Jesus is God the Son, very god of very god, begotten, not made yadda yadda… and I could not reconcile that with the fact that Jesus Himself ducked the question himself as if it were a radioactive potato.

    So I was talking to Him, as I sometimes do, and asked why that was. And he asked me “would it change the truth of my words in any way if I were or were not?”

    >blink

    Comment by Bob King — April 27, 2006 @ 4:29 pm

  58. Lisa, thanks for your honesty and comments about belief. And congrats on a wonderful website. I laughed out loud at your comment about your husband not realizing just how dirty the house would get!

    Back on the subject:

    This might help some with questions about their level of faith or about the Gospel of Jesus Christ: open your home to the missionaries. Listen to a discussion or two with some investigators about the fundamentals or basic beliefs of the Church. Then seek the Lord in prayer.

    I have a similar background–4th/5th generation Mormon (they’re all republicans, I’m not). But considering the vast number of humans there are in the world, I am fortunate I was born into the Church. [Even if church is 3 whole hours long!!] Now for a borrowed analogy: I’ve been given a full ride scholarship to the university of my dreams and the decision is mine. Am I going to cut classes or show up and faithfully study, learn, and graduate?

    Comment by summersoff — May 10, 2006 @ 8:58 pm

  59. Lisa, I understand that exposed thing. It’s risky and courageous to let ourselves be known.

    What southern Utah town? Did we have this discussion? Did you say Richfield?

    Most of us do go through this sort of thing, unless we’re Stepford Mormons, even they feel it, they just don’t admit it.

    Choosing to be in the church, choosing that road, is a hard road. I’ve made that choice, but it hasn’t been easy. And you know, it’s the active members who make it harder, not the non-believers. The active ones don’t like people like me among them.

    Comment by annegb — May 11, 2006 @ 7:20 am

  60. Lisa, I really enjoyed reading your blog. Thanks for sharing from your heart. I only have a couple comments I’d like to share…thanks for listening…
    1. You say you couldn’t deny GOD…I say, good for you. There definitely was something or someone in you that wouldn’t let your mouth or heart believe that God doesn’t exist. Because He truly does.
    2. Yet you felt very confused…I’m not here to knock any religion. But I encourage you to go to a bookstore, purchase a regular, plain ole Bible(not a mormon one), and begin reading it. I’m so glad for you that you felt in your heart that God does exist, but that you also doubted certain things, such as racism, that really do exist in the mormon church.
    3. I really encourage you to google such phrases as “escape from mormonism…..leaving the mormons…..” etc. and see what you find. I wish you every blessing as you seek the truth, which is Christianity through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Comment by Nidja — May 19, 2006 @ 4:31 pm

  61. But I encourage you to go to a bookstore, purchase a regular, plain ole Bible(not a mormon one), and begin reading it.

    Um, Nidja — we Mormons use the same bible as the rest of the Christian world [in the King James edition, actually] Most of us have read it already.

    The purpose of the Book of Mormon is to be a second witness to Jesus Christ.

    Perhaps you should read the Book of Mormon. You might find it to be quite different than your preconceptions.

    N.O.

    Comment by not ophelia — May 19, 2006 @ 7:05 pm

  62. Nidja,
    One of the reasons I created this blog was because I was so turned off by the irrational and down right stupid things I read on the type of website you recommend. Sure, I’m often confused and questioning and seeking, but irrational stupidity helps very little, I’m afraid.

    My King James version of the Bible is sitting right here on top of my computer, in fact the book mark is kinda blocking the screen, I just realized that’s annoying, maybe I should, scoot it, ah, all better.

    It is kind of you to care, it really is, and I throughly respect your motives, trying to share your happiness and truth with me. But I’m afraid your brand of belief doesn’t suit me. I feel that I do have Christianity with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Which is just my feeling and not something that can be debated.

    Comment by fMhLisa — May 20, 2006 @ 12:13 am

  63. the truth, which is Christianity through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Just to speak up for truth…there is a truth to this statement. However, that truth is not mine. It’s also not the truth of someone who follows the way of Zen or perhaps Hinduism. Also, I have to think that God, however you define it, is big enough to understand and accept all ways that people take to the divine. Mormonism, even at its shakiest, is one of them. Racism is inherent in all of us, Christian evangelicals included.

    Comment by pele — May 20, 2006 @ 5:06 pm

  64. Lisa,

    I loved what you had to say because you perfectly described the process that all must eventually go through. There comes a time when everyone must stand up and be responsible and accountable for their own selves. No one else is or can be. Our happiness now and forever is an individual thing. The sooner we begin to think and feel for ourselves, the sooner we can get real answers.

    And why should you be concered that you struggled for ten years? I believe the fact is that no one is truly “found” yet, because our understanding is so incomplete. Just because we come to understand a portion of the the truth of something doesn’t mean we’re “found.”

    All of us are still searching for greater understanding, some more aggressively than others. The moment someone thinks they “know” is the moment of damnation, because progress comes to a screeching halt. The only way we can progress is to first declare “I don’t know,” and then ask God for greater understanding.

    Incidentally, the reason you didn’t get an answer sooner is because you pursued the answer, pushing it away from you, according to the Law of the Universe. The moment you let go is the moment the answer came.

    Anyway, great stuff! If only all us — men and women alike — could really become thinkers and feelers as you have become! The world would be an entirely different place to live, even approaching Zion.

    Comment by Dave — July 11, 2006 @ 1:35 pm

  65. Hi Lisa,

    My husband showed me your story. I must admit it left me breathless and almost crying. Thank you so much for being so brave and honest! While I have never gone through such a trial of faith, and while I think you and I would have a healthy disagreement on politics - I am terribly involved in the Republican party and even (sigh) lost a run for city council… but I digress.

    My husband showed me your story:-) I suspect he found it doing a google for words like nudity and Mormon. He asked me to read your blog to see that men are not the only ones who question the traditional LDS stance on nudity.

    So now I’d like to question you, if it’s okay. How have you resolved your questions about nudity? Or have you? I’m wondering if you we aware of the strong and growing nudist sub culture within the LDS religion? (What?!?) Yea, I’m serious. But relax everyone - according to these harmless people, not all of them men, true nudism is not about sex. I have my own thoughts, but the comment section of your blog I’m sure is not the right place to share them.

    What, if any, are your thoughts?

    Thanks, Kim.

    Comment by Kim A. — July 19, 2006 @ 9:24 pm

  66. Honestly, I don’t have many thoughts about nudity. I guess I’m a mostly product of my culture, random nudity, ick. I don’t have a moral problem with people hanging out naked (obviously endowed people are going to have to think about that more than your average joe, but whatever). but I find nudity mostly silly, embarrasing and/or gross. I’d like to think if I was immersed in another culture, I could be flexible enough to view nudity within a different context, but I really see no point in hanging out naked in Idaho.

    Comment by fMhLisa — July 19, 2006 @ 9:57 pm

  67. I loved your story…I wish you were my neighbor ! How fortunate you are to have waded through the “crap” and found peace within yourself and the gospel. I had to take what I fondly call my “self-imposed hiatus” from the church (I was in the stake primary presidency at the time) a few years ago to sort of “find myself again”…maybe there are those people who can float along, “nothing wavering” , but I couldn’t…and still can’t.
    A comment on the nudity…it has never bothered me much, and I have often asked myself, if I were vacationing in the South of France where it was the “norm” to go to the beach topless, would I do it? I think I would!! I agree about no nudity in Idaho…to cold here in the winter…

    Thanks,KKN

    P.S. How can I get in on the FMH bookclub?

    Comment by KKN — July 27, 2006 @ 10:51 pm

  68. A friend who is a former Mormon, like me, recommended your blog–she said it was funny. I read the most recent posts and was totally turned off, angered even. Another friend found THIS post and sent me the link. I read it, and it resonated. I know Maxine Hanks, and Janice Allred is my MIL. I have a lot to say about this stuff. I am totally out of the church. I don’t want my kids to have anything to do with the kind of people who grew up the way you and I did, people who will not play with them because they are not Mormon. There’s so much I could say, but I don’t really have the time right now. Thanks for your thoughtfulness. I do believe that you are somewhat deluded because I personally believe the men who run the church right now are not good men. I think that as a feminist woman, I could no longer support in any way a system that fundamentally and institutionally veiws me as second-class, no matter what individual bishops or other people in minor positions of authority say. I could give you several examples of evil the church wrought, but I also know that it’s not my place to change your mind. I appreciate your journey and your heartfelt honesty in sharing it.

    Comment by Katherine — September 24, 2006 @ 7:29 pm

  69. im a new Mormon…and lately…the past 8 years ive had a crisis of faith too…to the point that i dont even want to get out of bed to go to church…and ive got an amazing Bishop…i worry about hurting his feelings and how he feels more than God…honestly.
    sometimes….in my opinion…i feel like God challenges our faith to make sure it is our own individual faith and Me that He is getting rather than doctrine from someone elses heart, mind and soul. For me, when I find my faith in Him and trust in Him, and it is my own…then I will think and feel like He has that understanding for me.
    I enjoyed your honesty and your openness.
    thank you

    Comment by Elise — November 12, 2006 @ 10:00 pm

  70. I FEEL SO SORRY FOR ALL OF YOU AND YOUR QUESTIONING OF YOURSELF AND YOUR FAITH BECAUSE YOU ARE YOUR FAITH, GOD IS IN ALL OF US, IT DOESN’T COME LIKE A REVELATION, OR YOU HAVE TO EARN IT, WE ARE BORN WITH IT AND JUST NEED TO TRUST IN IT. NO FORM OF RELIGION WILL EVER TEACH YOU THAT, OR TEMPLE OR ANY BISHOP.
    IT COMES IN SMALL THINGS, SEEING A STRANGER NEEDS HELP, KIDS WHO FALL DOWN, SAVING A DOG, OR WHEN YOUR BABY LOOKS AT YOU AND SMILES SO BIG WITH JOY, THAT IS GOD SHOWING YOU HIMSELF, THEY COME IN SMALL WHISPERS THAT CANNOT BE HEARD WHEN YOU ARE TRYING SO HARD TO PLEASE OTHERS IN YOUR CHURCH. BESIDES THEY ARE NOT THE ONES WHO DECIDE YOUR LIFE AFTER DEATH, NO ONE CAN JUDGE YOU , AND IF THEY SAY THEY CAN THAT IS THEIR OWN INSECURITY OF HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THEMSELVES.
    WE ARE ALL HERE TO LEARN WHILE ON THIS EARTH, BUT I THINK IT IS GOD WHO SAYS TO ALWAYS FORGIVE, HE WOULD ALWAYS FOLLOW HIS OWN ADVICE.
    YES!!! AND OPEN YOUR MIND TO FAITH AND SPIRITUALITY ON A HUMAN LEVEL, NOT BY WHAT ANY SAYS YOU MUST DO. READ ABOUT OTHER RELIGIONS AND YOU WILL SEE WE ALL JUST WANT TO KNOW GOD, AND WE ARE SO BUSY TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING OR THINK OUR WAY IS THE BEST, HE HAS BEEN THERE ALL ALONG WAITING FOR YOU TO HEAR HIM. I AM GLAD YOU ARE STARTING TO LISTEN, EVEN IF YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT!

    Comment by MCKINZIE — November 21, 2006 @ 1:49 pm

  71. Lisa,

    It’s good to know that I am not the only one that questions their faith. I too struggle with my faith on a daily basis. Unfortunately for me, my husband (who is a firm, strong Mormon) isn’t dealing well with my struggles, which has put a HUGE wedge between us. Not sure if our marriage will survive…

    Comment by Lori — December 5, 2006 @ 9:51 am

  72. Civil Rights had nothing to do with the eternal truth of the Gospel.

    Huh? Why can’t the spirit testify to you that you should believe and support civil rights?

    Love they neighbor as thyself.
    Who is my neighbor?
    Everyone

    here, here, here, here

    This entire church is based on the idea of an individual being able to get an answer to his/her prayers. God will answer your prayers.

    Comment by some dood — December 5, 2006 @ 6:35 pm

  73. I’m 23, was born and raised in the church, then left it when I was 13. I find myself now living back in Utah, working with Mormons and among Mormons, and it feels like I’m standing in a room full of people I almost was.

    Reading Lisa’s post brought me to tears.

    I don’t think I’ll ever be Mormon again, but my 13 years in the church did change me, and if ever there is a bridge to some place of true understanding and reconciliation, then compassion and thoughtfulness like Lisa’s will be the foundation.

    Comment by nicocitalee — January 29, 2007 @ 10:07 pm

  74.  Good for you, Lisa. You are a flip-flopper of the best kind-
    —you are not afraid to change your opinion the more you learn.
    Evolution is not all bad.
    I’ve sure changed, from “inactive and naive”, to “active and
    naive”, to discovering that “one does not always get rewarded for
    doing their best to do what the church teaches its members” (such as studying the scriptures and “out of the best books”. Avid study got me into a whole lot of trouble with the church when I
    dared to publically share some of my thoughts and what I learned.
    Stifling! No wonder LDS blog sites have become so popular.

    Rosetta

    Comment by Rosetta — February 22, 2007 @ 7:16 pm

  75. It gave me chills.. thanks.

    Comment by Cassie — March 2, 2007 @ 6:38 pm

  76. Wow, I’m glad someone bumped this thread. My own journey to a knowledge of God also passed through agnosticism; I had to be ready to “bear testimony” that I did not believe in God. I think you and I walked the same road that Langston Hughes walked, but in the opposite direction.

    Eternal life means knowing God, not just beliving in him.

    Comment by Christian — March 2, 2007 @ 7:20 pm

  77. I’m interested in how this Blog was developed. (from a technical standpoint) I need to contruct such a Blog, I assume this came from a template of some sort? (That you are not HTML-JavaCode warriors) so can you help me with some info?
    Thanks Steven

    Comment by steven Ford — March 19, 2007 @ 12:41 pm

  78. Don’t know how welcome “goys” are here, but your entry was great, and i enjoyed it. I think all women should be fascinated by Women’s history, and the Civil Right Movement. If Phyliss Shafly is the womens movement, thanks, I’ll take Nancy Pelosy!
    The warm fuzzies you describe are, not limited to any religion or topic, when they come …enjoy!
    Only hubristic arrogant people like George W, who made their mind up long ago about most everything, and never re-think a decision, are “above” the waffling of re-consideration. How did this term waffling, come to be no negative, when places like Harvard consider VERITAS something you must “waffle” toward most of your life!

    Comment by steven Ford — March 19, 2007 @ 12:57 pm

  79. P.S. I was a missionary in ther era when Blacks were not in the Priesthood, it bothered me, but not as much as the fact that after Brazil had so many converts of mixed blood, that made the issue so terribly complex, there was a “new” revelation that God had changed her mind! I bore testimony, and still can, altlhough what i say now, would leave many scratching their head! Then i could not say “the one and only truth” i did say it occassionally, but felt dis-ingenuous as i said it once or twice, and then quit, in preference to other positive points, that I did feel more confortable with. I am bothered by a concept like “You can’t pick and choose, the parts you like” Why not?? Isn’t that called judgement, why is judgement good for some, but not for others.

    Comment by steven Ford — March 19, 2007 @ 1:07 pm

  80. I’m a convert to the church. I keep teeter totting as to whether this is what I want for me. I don’t believe in Joseph Smith. I have my doubts and questions on SO many things. Yet, the fundamentals, the teachings of our ward and those warm familiar faces every Sunday are like a family to me. I love how the church focuses on strengthening the family so much. It is what I need in my life. I also love the feeling I get when I attend or participate in anything that has to do with the gospel. I feel I’m a better person since I was baptized into the mormon culture. However, being the liberal, feminist woman that I am - I question everything.

    I love this site. I came across it looking for mormon literature, anything really, that would help me come to terms with myself and so many of my plaguing issues. I do believe this will help. Thanks to all of you for your brutally honest comments.

    -CA

    Comment by Carmen Alderete — March 21, 2007 @ 4:07 pm

  81. carmen,

    I used to say (soon after my conversion) that even if I get to the other side and I find out that it was all wrong, I lived a better life because of it.

    If you like the teachings of the church and you feel the spirit when you attend, take it slowly and with a ton a patience (this is where true Christianity comes into play). Keep going and serving. You can and will be happy as a member of this church.

    love to you

    Comment by mfranti — March 21, 2007 @ 4:48 pm

  82. I’ve thought about two of the issues you discuss because of my mother.
    Before she went on her mission in the early 60’s there were two issues that really disturbed her about the church–one was polygamy, and one was people of African descent not having the priesthood. She wanted to resolve these before leaving, so she read, prayed, and had long talks with gospel scholars–and in the end, she decided that she believed the gospel, and so she would just go without complete resolution.
    She was called to Germany–it was 20 years after the War, and was dealing with members who were still shockingly racist against Jews, and members who had actually been in the German army. (None of them had been personally involved in killing Jewish people; most of them had spent their time in the war fighting against Russia). But despite this, they were still strong members of the church.
    I think what it comes down to is that the Lord works with people as they are, and He allows us incredible amounts of agency. It was a huge revelation to me how many mistakes even righteous people can make. It ends up being a comfort to me, that even with all my mistakes I am still loved by my Heavenly Parents.

    Comment by Day — March 21, 2007 @ 7:30 pm

  83. I must be the same age as you–I just missed the November 6th deadline to vote for George HW. And I went through a lot of the same trials of faith and questioning. So I wonder, WHY is it that becoming a Democrat makes people question their faith? I’m SO glad James E. Faust is a Democrat! I held that example up to someone who said to me, after I’d made a political comment, “I knew you were a Democrat, but I didn’t know you were a sinner!” as if the former is just a step on the way to the latter.

    For me, it really helps to separate what is culturally Mormon from what is doctrinally Mormon faith. I try to ignore the cultural stuff.
    I wonder who told you about people who are not modest going to Hell? I grew up in Utah too, but I never heard that.
    It’s interesting that what is taboo in the Mormon religion varies by area. When my sister lived in England, she heard members tell others, “It’s against our religion to kill spiders,” and all the members she knew believed that.

    Comment by Day — March 21, 2007 @ 7:36 pm

  84. Wow! Lisa, thanks for the beautiful post. I have just started searching on the Internet for people like me and finally, I’ve found some!! I have felt so alone in the church for a long time with nowhere to voice my opinions or concerns. My parents, dad in particular, don’t want to hear anything that questions the church. Their answer is always a shrill, “If you don’t like the church, just leave it then. You’re on the road to apostacy.” Other friends in the church don’t want to have discussions about anything either, lest it lead them to apostacy. So I sit silently in church wondering where I belong (if anywhere), terrified to say anything that will challenge the status quo, and inwardly cringing at so much in the Mormon culture that makes me crazy. Where do I stand now? I’m not sure. I’ve recommitted to learning about Christ and developing a relationship with Him. I will not leave the church because it would have devastating affects on my family. But at least here, I can know that there are others just like me out there. I’m probably even sitting next to some of you in church every Sunday. It’s a shame that we can’t meet up face-to-face. We’re all too busy being silent or putting on a smiling face and acting out something we don’t necessarily feel. Do I have issues with aspects of Mormonism? Yes. Polygamy. Blacks in the priesthood. Garments (sorry– but if I can’t say it here, where can I? Honestly, I can’t stand garments– they are uncomfortable, un-feminine, feel like the ultimate control of my body by men who tell me not only what underwear I’m allowed to wear and how often to how much of my shoulder I’m allowed to bare). Male authority. Lack of strong role models for women. Changes in temple ordinances (I thought God didn’t change so why didn’t we get it right the first time). The Book of Abraham. Excommunication of members for speaking out on intellectual topics and attempts to silent any real debate. Worthiness interviews where we are expected to discuss the most intimate details of our s*x lives with men. Church courts. And so much more. But I also believe in the Book of Mormon. I just don’t believe someone sat down and made it all up. So I am trying to reconcile it, learn more about Jesus, be a good person, and let the rest all just play out how it will.

    Lisa, I can’t thank you enough for this site and your post. It’s truly brought me much comfort. Yeah– I’m not alone!!

    Comment by Lulubelle — March 29, 2007 @ 3:06 pm

  85. I appreciate Lisa’s comments. I’ve lived as a member of the Church outside of the USA and I appreciate that opportunity. There is a difference between Church culture and the Gospel. The Gospel and doctrine is perfect. You need to use your own mind and your own judgment and seek for a testimony of those things that are doctrine. Some of the things that Lisa shared as “Mormon beliefs” are not doctrine at all and I think she was particularly sensitive to the spirit to recognize that. Her experience in questioning some of those things should not cause her to doubt the faith, but start her on a lifeline journey of coming closer to Christ. Because I think she would be surprised…she may, in many things that her heart was whispering to her, have a better understanding of the doctrine than those around her.

    Keep searching Lisa. The gospel is more beautiful in its pure form than most of us realise.

    Comment by Tiffany — April 1, 2007 @ 6:11 pm

  86. Comment to Lulubelle. Hang in there. I consider myself a strong-willed/minded/intelligent female in the church. I don’t have a perfect understanding of all things, but some of things you mentioned do have another side to them. Remember that the priesthood is only effective and the ‘authority of God’ when it is implemented in righteousness. Priesthood holders are to use it the same way that Christ served His Church. With love. Understanding. Priesthood is about service. If it is anything else - such as domineering, bossiness, self-righteousness, etc - those individuals do not have God’s approval and will be accountable to Him big time one day.

    I am 26 and have just been called as my ward’s Relief Society President here in Australia. My husband had just been released from serving as bishop for 6 years. If I feel someone treats me disrespectfully or without the honor I deserve as a daughter of God - I let them know right quick. I expect brethren to respect me and my decisions when I act in my area of authority. No one treats me less than I deserve. Likwise, I honor them when they faithfully serve in their assigned capacities.

    Hang in there. The gospel is true and beautiful, but 1. Satan absolutely delights in mucking things up for us and 2. the people around us aren’t perfect and make mistakes. Hang in there. You deserve to be respected and you deserve to be honored. You came to earth with a mission and a potential for great good. It is your unique contribution and a sacred task. And it is just as important as anything that the priesthood holders might be doing around you. I wish you my best.

    Comment by Tiffany — April 1, 2007 @ 6:54 pm

  87. Lisa, I LOVED your sharing, your candor, your truth. I’m glad you didn’t delete this. I’m new to the blog - and as others after me will no doubt do, I wanted to learn about The Woman Who Started It All. I’m glad this is here - I just skimmed (I’m running out of time…), but I’ll be back to read in depth. THANK YOU again - your candor/honesty/truth allows us all the space to be that way.

    Comment by Kathy — April 10, 2007 @ 4:42 pm

  88. Lisa, i want to thank you for your honesty. i really relate to what you said. and i want to say that i have bipolar disorder and other problems and sometimes i don’t express myself very eloquently…guess i’m afraid i’ll appear stupid!!(there’s the panic and anxiety already!!).
    i was baptized 2 months ago after being excommunicated for 3 years. i had been an active, but almost “numb” member for 10 years prior to that. i joined the first time as a young and naive mother of 2 small children, married to a verbally abusive man who used his Priesthood as just another reason to be controlling and mean. i would try to talk to my bishop and just get patted on the hand, given articles to read and generally hushed. this went on for 6 years, until i finally had had it with men, the Priesthood, Mormon culture….i just didn’t care anymore. i never stopped loving my Savior and i never didn’t know the Gospel was true, it was just all the pretending to be so happy when i was miserable, putting on a mask every Sunday, not feeling like i could be the “real Me” who had opinions and thoughts…..so i ended up having a relationship and refused to give it up. i was mad at male authority and stubbornly refused to listen to my bishop.
    it finally came to this for me-where do i want to spend eternity and with whom? i came full circle as far as knowing i could trust in Jesus. that’s who i made covenants with.
    still,i have a questioning, almost rebellious part in my soul that screams to be heard about many Mormon practices, yet i fear recrimination if i say anything. i have SO many questions about deeper doctrine, i want to be told the pure truth. maybe its my mental illness that plays a part in all of this. i’ve just always felt that, as an LDS woman, that we are just supposed to sit still and be quiet. well, i ain’t doing that anymore. i know i’m rambling. i just feel so stifled.
    Nita

    Comment by Nita — April 26, 2007 @ 5:13 am

  89. The beautiful thing about God is that he loves every single one of us even when we are stubborn, and ignorant, and stupid. Even all at the same time. The other beautiful thing about God is that he listens to all of it and only acts when we are ready for him to act. That’s what it sounds like happened to you. I read your story and I understand something that I never really thought about before. I realized that not only do each of us find a testimony in different ways, but that our testimonies are sometimes a right of passage. We struggle and fight and kick against the pricks, but all the while, God is there waiting for us. Then, when we’ve worked ourselves to a certain point, he gives us exactly that little prod, or push, or hug that makes everything clear.

    Thank you for sharing and articulating so that the Spirit was present while I read it.

    Comment by Michael K. — May 4, 2007 @ 12:13 pm

  90. Lisa,
    I found out about this website from an article in BUST magazine. (As of last June) I am no longer LDS, but naturally I continue to have an interest in articles/televised programs/talks on the Church. I wanted to tell you that I really enjoyed reading what you wrote. I think that if I had known about this website, I wouldn’t have felt so alone as a struggling liberal LDS woman. Your experiences mirror mine in a lot of ways. Even though I am happy with my decision to leave the church, I admire those of you who continue to raise questions but still hold steadfast to your values and beliefs. I think that says a lot about the strength of women.

    Comment by Shelly — May 15, 2007 @ 10:57 am

  91. I am glad you shared. I have never been on this website but have been struggling to “gain” a testimony. Having grown up the perfect Molly myself, as an adult I have worried that the warm fuzzies I felt over Hallmark commercials don’t quite count as “spiritual ” experiences. I have prayed for 3 years to have a witness of the gospel, but to no avail. Sometimes it can be too much trying to conceal my pain, looking so perfect at church with my husband serving on the high council and the 4 kids lined up on the bench all in a row. When I sit in testimony meeting it’s all I can do not to go crazy. I think, “Why them and not me”. I’m living quite a righteous life doing some pretty great thinks, and abiding by the gospel to a T. Sometimes I just can’t stand the guilt anymore, what’s wrong with me that I can’t have a witness that the gospel is true? I struggle with things that I just never thought about as a youth when I was spoon fed in S.S. The temple has always wierded me out although in the past I tried faithfully to attend and “feel ” something. Anyway, I”m rambling now. People who know me would die if they new I felt this way. I feel like such a fraud, attendinging church, teaching my chiidren, when I don’t even know for my own self. Blah, Blah, Blah

    Comment by S.B.G — May 25, 2007 @ 9:28 pm

  92. Brava, Lisa. Brava. An incredible spiritual journey and I thank you for sharing it. Doesn’t it feel great to face down all of your doubts, questions, misgivings, misunderstandings and to come out on top? Three cheers for personal witnesses. Three cheers for your perseverance. Thanks again.

    Nathaniel Scott Cannon

    Comment by Nathaniel Scott Cannon — June 7, 2007 @ 8:37 pm

  93. Lisa,
    I just learned about you and this website in Bust magazine. Thank you so much for your courage. I suspect that there are MANY of us out there, but we put on our proper “face” for Relief Society and consequently we all feel isolated and alone. I too live in Boise. We moved here a couple of years ago from a large and liberal city. I often feel suffocated and alone here. My career is closely linked to feminism. I often feel that the fact that I am a “career woman”, not to mention the fact that it is in a field full of feminists, causes people in our ward to wonder about me. Anyway–I’m delighted to find you all.

    Lulubelle–right on sister! Amen, amen, and amen. Your words could be mine exactly. Those are scary things to say, but I have the same sentiments.
    Jenny

    Comment by Jenny — June 18, 2007 @ 4:07 pm

  94. Well, I’ll be! Look at what the old crone has found…(this website)..and I’ve thought I was the only one who has walked through life these many years just not quite fitting in, and not quite fitting out. Was labeled as “falling away” when I refused to go to Ricks, called a women’s-liber when I wanted more than an MRS. degree, was told I didn’t know my place when I launched my professional career, shut out by other women because their husbands didn’t want me planting ideas in their wives heads. I’ve been a RS pres, YW counselor, camp director and Primary counselor amoung other things while raising 3 kids, working full time, raising a puena eterna husband whose infidelity launched me on a soul searching mission to figure out who I am and why I am so alone in my beliefs-and unbelief-I’ve found Jean Shinoda Bolen and realized I am a Goddess after all, and now I’ve found I’m not alone either. I see some bloggers called Artemis and Athena, so surely there are some more Bolen fans out there????? By the way, I divorced Zeus, feel fulfilled without a man, so I still don’t fit in. Thanks to you all for speaking your minds..perhaps this is the sacred circle I have been searching for…am I the hundreth monkey? can we acheive the critical mass that will end patriarchy?

    Comment by Queen of the Meadow — June 19, 2007 @ 11:23 pm

  95. Lisa,

    When you were much younger- you were a wonderful nanny and influence to my children, your nieces and nephew. They still talk about your propensity to read and share intellectual things with them, even though they were only children. You are the only family member, (divorce breeds distance), that still consistently contacts my children. You are a wonderful person and now, after so many years, I am uncovering a whole new dimension to you that is delightful. Keep strong and never doubt that you are an intelligent and amazing person. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and having the courage to question.

    M

    Comment by Wandering Soul — August 13, 2007 @ 11:25 am

  96. I bet they also have a some lovely memories of me yelling at them (I do have that temper), or perhaps of that time I left the scissors on the floor and E gifted me with big clumps of her hair. Good times.

    I’m actually feeling guilty that I haven’t made more of an effort to keep up with them. I like to blame giving birth to all those crazy punks for all my failures. I hope to do better from now on.

    Oh and the kids LOVE the kettebike!

    Comment by fMhLisa — August 13, 2007 @ 6:54 pm

  97. I’m not sure if I read this before, but I can say that I wish I would have gone through my similar struggle as early in my life as you did in yours. It would have been nice to feel more “resolution” on some of my issues before I became a mother. Instead, it was after child #2 came along and in the midst of PPD that I had my feminist awakening and along with it my first gospel crisis. I still haven’t figured everything out, but to paraphrase Nephi, I feel like while I don’t know the meaning of all things, I do know that God loveth his children. Sometimes I don’t even feel 100% about that, but I feel enough of that that I can’t reject the gospel.

    Comment by mindy — August 14, 2007 @ 3:58 am

  98. Here’s my problem with your post Lisa. You confuse Utah culture with Mormon culture. Granted, sometimes Utah culture spreads into LDS culture in other areas because of the large amount of Utahns meeting in any ward house, but that’s still Utah culture and not LDS culture. As I have done, go to the wards in Harlem, or even more white, liberal wards in cities throughout the world and the negative stereotypes you have attributed to “LDS culture” will be entirely abscent–except for in the Utah transplants. You should switch your emphasis from “fixing LDS culture” to keeping the negative elements of Utah culture from seeping into LDS culture or being mistaken as such.

    Comment by Spencer — August 24, 2007 @ 4:38 pm

  99. I just now had the time to read through your post and all the comments ;) Great stuff. I really like that we can be liberal and question things about the church and then still believe in it. I struggle with certain things, question them, and still manage to come back to feeling good about the church. I think that with any religion there are a lot of unkowns or things that just don’t add up. I chalk those up to the things that are not meant for us to comprehend quite yet. Maybe that’s just my random justification. Maybe it’s not.

    I also found the comment of “read a regular bible, not a mormon one” funny. How many times have I had that conversation with someone….

    Thank you for sharing your story. It’s very helpful to others that have found themselves in the same boat.

    Comment by EKD — September 5, 2007 @ 10:53 am

  100. Thanks for your posting. I appreciate your honesty and the honesty of others to talk about how they questioned their faith. I too questioned for a long time. I had always been uncomfortable with the Joseph Smith story, even as a child it irritated me a little. I never found it the way others seemed to, and I longed to feel as they had. I always considered myself spiritual, and held on to the smallest morsel of belief. But eventually the questions and uneasiness added up until the small threads of my belief broke and I left. But still, I love the church, for what it was for me and my routes to it. It’s my family history. I love it for that. But my belief is gone. And even when I attend church every once in a while, I look for something that might reel me back in, but it doesn’t. I suppose I’m mad at God somehow, for not making me normal enough to have a good marriage or friends to confide in. Mental illness, I guess has gotten the better of me, to where depression and unhappiness finally gave way, they gave way before I left the church which is probably part of why I left, hoping to find happiness elsewhere.

    I apologize for being so long winded. I suppose I’m just trying to make sense out of my lack of faith in a place so many have found theirs…

    Comment by Lisa — October 8, 2007 @ 5:10 pm

  101. so glad to find myself in such good company!
    It seems that I am a constant questioner,and in my case that constant questioning brought me to baptism, as a convert at the age of 11.the BOM was a revelation to me as it enabled me to question the abusive ways of relating to children that had carried over the generations in my family.
    It must be hard as Salt Lake Mormons to percieve how revolutionary the gospel can be to those steeped in other traditions-membership led to disaffection from both my own family and my husbands-and how liberating that can be, as we seek to live the gospel in our family-hoping to fail better than our parents!My children are struggling through similar processes as those described here, which is a source of anguish to us,but I hope I can allow them to find their own paths to truth.
    I share your frustration at the illiberality often manifest in the church-finding the writings of Hugh Nibley and your darling selves of late have been a light in the darkness.But what Ihave observed is that the church changes-it moves,slowly,into greater truth.I am more comfortable in the church of today than I was 10 years ago,and hope to be more comfortable in the future.Perhaps we have to grow to transcend our culture in order to embody Christs culture.For sure the church is going to have to accommodate a less amerocentric membership and I feel sure that it will meet that challenge with a growing maturity.Perhaps,like all groups we will eventually grow to feel safe enough of our own identity to incorporate new truths without reacting to them as a threat.
    Meanwhile we have to maintain our integrity-exemplified by those who have provided and contributed to this wonderful forum.Lisa, your integrity moved me to tears of joy and gratitude at your own sacred process.

    Comment by wayfarer — November 5, 2007 @ 11:57 am

  102. I enjoyed your post, Lisa.

    I think every single person should have a “crisis of faith” at some point - that helps them define what he/she believes in for him/herself. For some, I think it is a smaller thing, for others I think it’s huge - like yours. And some, I believe, bury it and never take it out and examine it - because they feel it’s a dirty little secret.

    I’m LDS. Like you, I grew up in Southern Utah. I fled to the East Coast when I was 20 because I wanted to know if I could handle living as the minority. I thought I was two people - the “good” person and the one who longed to be free to believe as I felt was right - about economics and politics and choice.

    I wanted to not feel bad that I longed for a career and that I knew I couldn’t handle a dozen kids (or even a half-dozen).

    Years later, I strongly believe that faith and religion are about helping one develop a personal relationship with God. It isn’t about becoming a clone. I have a much deeper testimony now. And I am a democrat and a strong believer in women and I cherish diversity of thought, of ideas, of beliefs.

    Comment by Sara — January 11, 2008 @ 2:53 pm

  103. Thank you.

    Comment by David — January 29, 2008 @ 1:19 am

  104. Gracious! I really like your site! I haven’t read the whole thing, but when I got to your annotation that now you think the fuzzies do count, I had to comment- I’ve gone through the same rollercoaster on that one. I know I have a witness, but I long thought that I didn’t have one for the longest time- now I think that old warm fuzzies did count again.

    Isn’t that odd? Sharing those experiences is great, and I could be wrong, but I get a good feeling sharing them here.

    Thank you for sharing the record, the full, honest one, (at least as far as I can tell!) - the one that doesn’t care what people say if you’re a liberal Mormon and doesn’t care what others say when you do believe in God after all.

    You remind me of my wife, from what I’ve read here. That is the biggest possible compliment I can give.

    Comment by Shaun — February 8, 2008 @ 8:36 pm

  105. I have to say that reading your blog has helped me greatly. My husband is mormon. He told me he didn’t believe in it while we were dating but asked me to consider practicing it after we got married. I don’t think he planned it that way. A desire for us to have a strong marriage and not knowing any other way to go about having one is what probably motivated the change.

    I investigated on my own. I’ve always had a distaste for missionaries from any faith, even my own, because the way they try to argue or sell you their point of view. People within your own church can even argue doctrine with you and consider it evangelical. I started with Church published materials that my husband had given me. Within 10 minutes of cracking the materials, though, I was astonished, and not in a good way.

    As I read further I found more and more things that weren’t fully explained. I didn’t understand why in church published material they would be so purposefully vauge. This lead me to look up information online. I learned a lot of things that as a prospective convert I was not supposed to know yet. Even things that the Church prefers it members not to read. I decided unwaveringly that this was not a religion that I could practice.

    I didn’t see the LDS religion as all bad. There are many positive things about it. I just felt those positive things are not exclusive to mormonism. And the aspects that were negative to me seemed to integral to the religion. I’m not trying to preach so I won’t list the things I disagree with or am unsettled by.

    I had begun to wonder ( I can’t really think of a better term ) how Mormons could be good people when they are taught racism and sexism. I know you can dismiss certain uncomfortable aspects of a religion. I had dismissed the tendency in my own religion to condemn homosexuals. But I couldn’t see people who are taught that being obedient to Church authorities is recuisite to exaltation (as I understand it) turning away from those teachings. My experience with my in-laws didn’t give me much faith in the LDS phenomenon of free thought. My mother-in-law has told me that it seems that God is “sexist” and that a man should always have the last say in decision making. My sister-in-law won’t leave a cheating husband becuase she is so ashamed that she is already on her second marriage.

    You’ve helped me realize how foolish I was being. And that I was basically stereotyping. People of every faith have free will and the ability to use thier intelect. Mormons may be pressured more to ignore those cognitive urges, but they are their just the same. There are racists and sexists and homophobes everywhere, in any walk of life coming from many different religions.

    I won’t pardon the church for illegally influencing the the vote on the ERA by using the obedience of female (and male) members. And I still will avoid using products and services that I know profit mormons. I know that sounds horrible. But I don’t want to fund a church that subjugates women and teaches racial inequality, among other things that I disagree with. But it’s more important to have faith in people then to respect the orgainizations that can exploit them. You’ve rejuvenated my faith in the strength of intelligent individuals.

    Comment by Alison — March 12, 2008 @ 2:33 pm

  106. Thank goodness for people like Lisa and Lulubelle (84). Keep on keepin on Lulubelle. I know you’re not likely to read this but I just wanted to let you know I feel for ya. I hope that my mother-in-law is secretly someone just like you. It’s a shame that following your heart would put you in a bad way with your family.

    Comment by Alison — March 12, 2008 @ 2:45 pm

  107. 105) I am sadened by your response to Mormons, and of your distaste to purchase anything from us only because of what is was done in the past. You hold on to stuff like that, you might as well be prejudice yourself.

    I know you aren’t on here for a debate, but with all the research you have done, it would seem to me that you would see what our religion is all about. It is the gospel of Christ, run by very imperfect men. Not one day of my life have I ever felt that I have been controlled by the men or the priesthood. I was raised by a wonderful father who taught me to question everything, and everyone, including the prophet. It is up to me to recieve my own revelation for myself, not the prophet.

    Anway, we are not bad people… okay the good part of us aren’t bad..you can find bad people anywhere you look and it isn’t just found in the LDS religion. I was moved by what Lisa said not because of the reasons you would think. I was moved because everything that she went through, the foundation that she had, the years of searching (for aren’t we here to learn, to work hard by the sweat of our brow) brought her to a point where she realized that she did, indeed, belive in God. She knew in that moment when she wanted to confess it to the world, that there was, infact, a God. A God so powerful that she could not deny the truth.

    I think there is a myth that we are told not to question things in the church. Anyone stupid enough to belive that is stupid enough to be called an idiot. How do you learn things if you don’t question. How do you find out what is right and what is wrong if you don’t question. What was it that Joseph Smith did when he was looking for a church to join, he questioned things.

    It is always about questions…every part of this religion is about questions.

    So, thank you, Lisa, for being honest enough with your self that you questioned everything you were taught.

    If members of the church really understood that the priesthood is not a one sex thing, life could be different. My husband, does not and will not ever dominate me. He will council with the Lord, and I will council with the Lord and together we will decide what is to be done.

    Comment by Sunshine — March 28, 2008 @ 9:37 pm

  108. you give me hope.

    Comment by anne.e — April 4, 2008 @ 5:30 am

  109. fMhLisa ,

    I happened on your site by accident, and though I feel prompted to post, I have little time remaining so please forgive the inevitable errors this will introduce.

    I am a convert of almost 30yrs. I find your mindset somewhat typical of those who, while brought up in the Church, know nothing of the Church.

    I search for 23 years for where Heavenly Father was. Being a scientist and logician both by profession and natural inclination I decided to early in my life to understand God through logical process. By this meaning that the system had to be internally consistent and account for all observable phenomena.

    I had fully formed, through my own study of the Bible — and almost every other faith on the Earth — my own ideas of how the doctrine had to be. NB: This is no great accomplishment. All it takes is a fine-tooth comb, several versions of the Bible, (in age and language, not modernity), an open mind, and the inclination to dwell on principle and pray. At the start of my quest I came on the same scripture that Joseph Smith did, though my results were not as spectacular.

    I needed to change very little in what I had worked out on my own. The biggest change (”biggest” as in where I was off-base) was the Word of Wisdom.

    When the missionaries found me, and I heard them say who they were, my knees buckled and I almost fainted — the so strongly did the Spirit testify to me.

    I studied the history of the Church, and the customs that are doctrine based, not culture based. I find that very few people bother to note that their is a difference. I have yet to find a doctrine based custom that is wrong. I have noticed a parallel in what are called “Cultural Jews” — a term I didn’t understand until a Hebrew friend explained it. You are mistaking the outward practices, “the doctrines of men”, as it were, from the Gospel. We lose a lot of our people to that — even returned missionaries.

    There are some impressions of your post that stick out in my mind, and I’d like to respond to those. The first observation is that if you might want to go to the source, rather than friends, when you have a problem. You say things like: “chance of birth”, “submissive quite thing”, the misconceptions about nudity & non-members, that cause me to question how you could have done everything expected of a “Molly M”. Certainly learning the doctrine was expected of you, yet your confusions in your post show none of that. For example — the nudity thing, remember: “where no law is given…”, does that sound familiar?

    You seem to believe LDS women are told to “shut up & be still”, or some-such, if I understand you correctly, (I might be confusing your comments with those who posted after… if so, forgive me…). You seem to not only know nothing of our history, but heard nothing the Prophets have said.

    You seem to imply that Church Doctrine encourages the subjugation of women. Nothing is farther from the truth.
    LDS women were the first to have suffrage. When UT was honing to join the U.S., the good women voted to forgo that right, promised its return in the future. In the Church itself, if you read D&C you’ll read how The Lord feels about unrighteous dominion. Is that language strong enough for you? This is right along side of the doctrine of “Common Consent”. It seems to me that women have the same privilege as men there.

    People who are not white. If you read the scriptures carefully, you’ll see that skin color was only a small part of the differentiation that was placed on the less valorious. In any event, you — personally — do seem a touch racist, as your looking at the people and considering that mark was beyond what we as LDS have been told to do.

    Remember D&C 64:10&11:

    10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.
    11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

    So, we aren’t to judge these: our brethren. That is the Lord’s to do, (a job which I am grateful isn’t mine :-} ).

    My flees on wings, so I’ll simply put in a few more general $0.02, and then go.

    It’s good your Mom is a very “aggressive” woman (as the Mormon Culture lingo goes), we need those women — they keep the men on the staite path. Didn’t anyone ever tell you that it is the LDS women that keep the walking with the Iron Rod, that they are the Civilizing Influence of the Church? Even of all mankind.

    My wife is anything but “submissive”. An USAF officer, a surgeon, a martial arts instructor — these all describe her, packed in a 4′10″ frame, but not submissive. She is a walking billboard for the LDS saying: “The may men hold the Priesthood, but it is the RS that gets things done!”. When we were stationed in UT @ Hill AFB, I went warned that the “Mormon Culture” might shake my faith. While it didn’t, perhaps because of the warning - I don’t really know - I did see what the person meant.

    I am a better man because of the Church. I have a very strong, (some would even say “overbearing” - and they’d be right…) personality. If it wasn’t for the Church’s teachings, I’d probably — by the shear force of my personality — have dominate my wife. It was that way prior the the Church coming into our lives. So she has said to me, and if I’m honest with myself, she’d be right.

    You have my email if you want to continue this, or during correction of anything I’ve written need amplification of my points. I’m not a very good writer, usually needing 6 or even 10 drafts to say thing cogently. That’s often because my mind outpaces my hands, but oh well…

    I hope that you can find what you need.

    - martin.musculus

    Comment by martin.musculus — May 17, 2008 @ 11:38 am

  110. My flees on wings, so I’ll simply put in a few more general $0.02, and then go

    Opps that should read:

    My time flees on wings, so I’ll simply put in a few more general $0.02, and then go

    Sorry, see what I mean about my mind outracing my poor typing skills…

    - martin.musculus

    Comment by martin.musculus — May 17, 2008 @ 11:40 am

  111. Wow. I just came apon this website by pure accident–or something! Lisa’s story left me dumb-founded. I am 22 and come from a big fat mormon family. I was your typical beehive and such, except for a tendancy to argue(and confound) my young women, sunday school and seminary teachers. I have frustrated so many of my friends and family with my genuine curiosity in matters of the gospel. I was 5 years old when I asked my dad “heavenly father had a father right? and he had a father and he had a father and his father had a father?” I was told yes but there are much more important things to worry about.

    Things like abortion, blacks and the preisthood, women and the preisthood and polygamy have always weighed on my mind. One teacher actually told me that women are up here(as he held his had at chin level) and men are down here( his hand at waist level) so the priesthood makes them the same. –wow! I have a book of my theses statements on life. When something doesn’t make sense to me I reasearch it, pray and then write up a few pages about why I think it happens…you know, something to help me deal with my cognitive dissonance.

    I have spent hours and so many tears trying to explain to my friend and family why women’s rights are so important. Why the state of society and the family is a result of women being treated unfairly and viewed as objects. I have dear friends who have left the church becuase they feel women are so mis-treated. I guess I can see their point, but I feel so lucky to understand there is so much more than the picture we can see right now. I have always felt there is room for feminism and women’s rights within the church. I have always thougth that if we truly lived by the love ethic that is in the book of mormon we would be happier families and our women and children would be treated with love.

    My passion for the gospel parallels my passion for civil rights. But not until I found this website, have I ever really felt understood.

    Comment by taylormade — June 2, 2008 @ 7:25 pm

  112. Thank you for sharing your journey. What you wrote resonated with me except in a different culture, half way around the world growing up as a young girl… Details different but same human emotions questioning a lot in life and faith. while trying to find herself.

    You are also a prolific writer and a woman of tremendous depth, honesty and courage! Thanks for sharing this inspiring story of self-revelation.

    Comment by RBK — June 30, 2008 @ 8:27 pm

  113. Found your website. I used to be a Mormon way back when I was a teen…. Had a very similar experience to yours. I was very upset and angry women didn’t have the priesthood and hated the sexist culture. But when I opened my mouth to say there was no God.. it just came tumbling out. I have felt happier, more moral, and just… right, every since. Its like feeling the spirit almost, but it telling me the exact opposite thing. Anyways, though we reached different conclusions, it was really nice to read how you worked through your experience. I am proud you are working to find feminism inside the faith. I wish some of my close Mormon friends know you…. they all think I’ve gone off the deep end, so there is little I can say to them now. It would be great for them to see feminist in their context.

    Comment by shannon — August 9, 2008 @ 3:19 pm

  114. Welcome Shannon. It’s assuring to have another feminist on the outside of mormonism in our midst. I can breath again.

    Comment by Ruby — August 9, 2008 @ 3:46 pm

  115. I can’t believe how lucky I am to have found such a wide range of thoughts, musings and spiritual crises! I, too, have struggled with explaining how I could be in such a church with only “feeling” that it is right. I have a wavering testimony of the Gospel but not of the overall greatness of the church. I know I did miss alot of it when I was away but am comfortable with my decision of kind of sitting on the fence for now. My separated husband has HUGE issues with the church and has for our entire relationship - 16 years - and I think now, it has only strengthened my testimony. So, thank you Lisa, for articulating so well my own personal struggle as a strong willed woman with visions for herself, her country and her children. I only want the best for everyone! Is that too much to ask? :)

    Comment by Mari — September 25, 2008 @ 5:25 pm

  116. I found this blog at Blogged.com. And boy am I glad I did. I’m a 19 year old single member of the church, and I’ve been a member for 1 year and 10 months. Not long at all, but, sadly, I am quite inactive. I’ve always felt a disconnect with other members of my ward, specifically the young women and women of Relief Society. I was raised by a liberal mother and a socially liberal father, surrounding by many more liberal relatives. My mom is pretty much a feminist. She protested me getting baptised initially because she didn’t want the traditional female roles that are so prevelant in the church to be pressed onto me. Eventually she gave in and signed the consent form. Before I was baptised and for almost a year afterward I was very active in the church, participated in youth activities, dated within the church, and my young womens leaders always remarked about how I was so dedicated to the gospel, and I remember one of the girls in young womens with me once said I was an inspiration to her because she felt like she took the church for granted, being brought up her whole life as a member. So I was doing pretty good, but then I moved away from that ward for school, and my love interest (who is almost two years older than me) went on his mission, and I lost the motivation to stick with it. I didn’t get along so well with the girls at my ward/stake, the only thing we had in common was the church, otherwise we probably would never have been friends. The only Mormon friends I had were guys, many of whom were leaving on their missions soon, and they were all back home. So when I moved away I had no Mormon guidance, and being the ridiculously shy person I am I cannot muster up the gumption to go to church and actually talk to anyone. I sit in the corner during Sacrament meeting and then sneak out before I can be invited to anything. Also, being in a college environment, I made some bad choices. And a part of me feels like it’s too late to go back. I know that’s not true, but I’m disappointed in myself, and when I think about the girls and leaders I knew at my old ward, I feel guilty because if I was still in touch with them, I know they would be disappointed too.
    I don’t really know what inspired me to go into my whole life story there…but what I’m essentially trying to say is thank you for creating this blog, and especially for writing your story, I could really relate to it in many ways. And it makes me feel better knowing that I’m not the only one who is struggling with some concepts of the church. And I’m also happy to know that there are other female members out there who don’t feel the need to hide their feministic and/or liberal leanings.
    I hope this isn’t creepy to say, but reading this blog (I’ve read a few other posts) is like having a Mormon version of my mother, or like having the Young Womens leader I always needed but never had. When it comes to church related issues, I still feel like the 17 year old convert on her first day at church sometimes.
    Again, thanks.

    Comment by Lissa — November 14, 2008 @ 8:07 am

  117. It sounds like a lot of you need to differentiate between your testimonies of the true basic gospel principles, from your testimonies of those who attend the church. Big difference.

    When your looking for offence or the bad points of something, you will certainly find it. And when dealing with human nature, you will find offence and bad points in abundance.

    As my brother once told me, “find out if it’s true. If it is, get to work. If it’s not, why are you wasting your time”. I know it’s true. I live it and I love it. If you know it’s not true, why are you all wasting your time hanging around and whining about the faults of the church. Move on. Do what does make you happy. But congregating and complaining about it will not make it better or make you any happier.

    I came across this web page looking for LDS decorating ideas and cannot figure out if this site is for or against the church, but had to express MY opinion. Thanks.

    Comment by Kami — November 30, 2008 @ 5:49 pm

  118. Lisa,
    Your story, plus the 117 responses (current count) are a real blessing to me. It shows how people who think deeply about the gospel and try to do the right things will be put thru many trials to test how they will react. We know, by revelation, that God put us on this earth for that very reason. I wish that I was as eloquent and fluent as you, for then I could write a similar story about my life. Reading your story is almost like reading it as my own proxy story. It helped me to see more clearly my own life in perspective. Thanks to you and all of the 117 respondents.
    Ned

    Comment by Ned — December 3, 2008 @ 10:37 pm

  119. I stopped reading the comments after the 20th because I had a hard day at work and I am tired so I apologize if this has been asked/mentionned before: Do you think it was a crisis of faith or a conversion process?

    Comment by Gwennaëlle — December 17, 2008 @ 3:21 pm

  120. I think where politics is involv ed, people in the US try to guess which party Jesus would belong to. The answer is none.

    We are indeed left to choose the lesser of two evils. Years ago I felt that was Democratic, but I have since come to feel that the republicans better support free agency, and the market system works much better in our imperfect world than decisions by misguided bureaucrats. But that’s right now. I wonder what government would look like under Jesus. Maybe somewhat like the church, but not all good people are LDS, so it wouldn’t be the church.

    Comment by Kimmillen — May 12, 2010 @ 11:33 pm

  121. Your story reverberates - I felt the same way about Last of the Mohicans, the holocaust, and voting for Bush (but it was W) then switching parties the next year. Prop 8 blindsided me because it seemed so glaringly “wrong side of history”, and as I researched I found us on the wrong side a lot. I think the church will progress, but only with internal pressure. I do believe in God, but right now that’s all I can really say. Wish we could meet!

    EAH

    Comment by EAH — June 8, 2010 @ 1:53 pm

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