Confessions of a “Small” Family

By: LisaJ - January 1, 2009

I have three kids.  

This announcement evokes two responses, and each depends on my audience. Inside the ward building a person is likely to quip, “So when’re you having another one?” Outside the ward building, the response comes with a gasp and dropped jaw: “Three kids!” 

Three kids.  An LDS family of three children rivals the non-member family of an only child. Outside the Church, three children is…well, a lot.  

I will not have any more kids. At ages 5, 4, and 3, my children are more than enough. I love my kids, but to realize our original plan of five would have been the equivalent to suicide for me.

Try explaining this to others, though. Friends and ward family regard us as children who will soon come to their senses and pop out a baker’s dozen like good Saints do.

“Oh you never know. You’re young. You could change your mind.” 

“…Are you sure?” 

It’s true I’m young(er), truth that people change their minds, but I resent insistences that I cannot know, that I would be silly to stop now, as if age determines how many children one should have. Even after confiding in a few friends – even my bishop  – that after my last child my anxiety disorder flared, they stood by their original thought. “You never know. You’re young.” 

I began to question myself. 

Three kids. How is that “replenishing the Earth”? I know a family with twelve kids. Eric comes from a family of six. I can’t think of anyone who stopped at three. Am I selfish?

Selfish!

Just a few months ago a girl in my stake related the same thought. Pregnant with her fourth, she confided disinterest in any more children and feelings of selfishness because of this disinterest. Her thoughts echoed my own almost exactly, and I wondered if I share the company of more women than I originally believed. 

Why do we feel we must do so much, even at the expense of our health and sanity?

We find merit in large families; indeed alongside a history of polygamy, others know us for our large families. I recognize with awe the women who flourish within their large families, these women who were made for many children. I know they exist. I don’t speak of them now.  

But why do we have large families? I know I wanted a larger family upon joining the church. I think most large families are wonderful, the children produced of such often selfless, full of charity. I still think so, but I know myself entirely too well to keep going. I could not handle more. I struggle with the three I have, with my health, and I resent the implication of selfishness or silliness in refusing to have more. It would be selfish to have more children. 

It seems to me sometimes that we place far too much emphasis on the frequency of our own procreation. It’s as if it speaks to our righteousness and faith as women. Quantity equals quality?

The admonition to multiply and replenish the earth is not a personal challenge. I don’t doubt some couples choose willingly to have extra large families and who excel and blossom within it. I am not one of them. I am not alone. Doctrinal or not, the idea that all women do and should have many children exists, and I believe it to be a dangerous one.

106 Comments »

  1. Where do you live that people actually count?

    Here in North Texas, my wife got flak for having a third…

    It’s not a race. There’s no gold star at the end of the rainbow for having any more or any less children than you and the Lord agreed upon…

    (Although, you’re very brave. 5, 4, and 3? Wow.)

    Comment by queuno — January 1, 2009 @ 12:24 pm

  2. queuno: brave? eh.

    It’s a story. Suffice it to say we’re done.

    I live in California, land of “you’re weird and silly if you think three is enough.” :)

    Comment by LisaJ — January 1, 2009 @ 12:29 pm

  3. As the oldest of four (with a family of 13 kids down the street), I always thought I wanted 3-5. Now I’m thinking 2 sounds nice. I even caught myself thinking a lady in the grocery store had a HUGE family… and stopped to count. Four. Four!

    I’m 30, done with school and married to a non-member (and thank heaven for the sanity check DH brings). But I’m sure you all can guess what every single conversation at church consists of:

    Them: “Are you going to start a family YET?” (Keep in mind: only married 2 years now)

    Me: “Yes, we’re thinking about it.”

    Them: “Only thinking about it? But you’re done with school now. You have no excuse.”

    Me: “We are trying, actually. I’ll be sure to keep you posted.”

    Them: “Are you sure you’re trying hard enough? Are you trying? Or just ‘not preventing’?”

    At this point, I want to bring up the frequency of intimate relations with my husband and offer a calendar or bar chart correlating the extracurriculars with my cycle. But I’m worried the Bishop will walk up behind me at that exact moment. At which point they add that I need to be a good example to the Young Women in the ward. (I’m 1st counselor.)

    A few years ago when I was in the middle of an ugly, scary, and sometimes violent divorce, I actually had ladies at church tell me that I should hurry and try to get pregnant before the divorce was final. “Because then at least [I] would have a baby.”

    /eyeroll

    Comment by that1girl — January 1, 2009 @ 12:35 pm

  4. Boy, do I understand that sentiment. I have 3 children also - but I’m only raising two (one was stillborn). I want to have another child but I’m still sorting through my thoughts on whether it’s because it’s what the Lord wants for me or if its because of the social pressure in the church or just my empty arms from having a stillborn baby. I wonder if I’m crazy for wanting to start again (mine are 10 and 6).

    Comment by Dawn — January 1, 2009 @ 12:48 pm

  5. I have been married for 25 years and have 4 children. We waited 4 years to have babies, on purpose, so I could start my graduate work (I finally earned my Master’s degree right before child #3 was born).

    I lived in Idaho (Mormon Think at it’s best) at the time and I did not experience anything close to this. For me, in the church, I have not experienced intrusive family planning advice. I have received support and encouragement. Sure, there is always one nosy insensitive person, but I wouldn’t extrapolate that to the majority.

    Now, in my professional associations, the mention of my 4 children is met with astonishment and awe.

    Comment by Robin — January 1, 2009 @ 12:49 pm

  6. Not the same exact situation, but related. My husband and I are 23 and 22 (respectively) and our first son is almost 1. He was definitely unexpected. We absolutely love and adore him, and we had wanted children at some point, but we had a long list of things to do before we had kids. Not just traveling and having fun but finishing SCHOOL, saving MONEY. We have definitely struggled with the unexpected shift in our life plan. Nevertheless, living in Provo Utah as we do, we kind of just expected and said that we would have more kids in an orderly and expected fashion, our next one by the time our son was three or so.

    A few weeks ago my husband brought up the idea of waiting, not until a predetermined date, but until we felt like we wanted and were ready for another baby. Until we felt like we had accomplished some of the things we had wanted to originally before we had kids. We had mentioned the idea before but were afraid of our oldest being raised feeling like an only child, or like a mistake as compared to our “real” family, basically just messing with his head. As soon as that idea was out there on the table, though, I felt like a million pound weight had been lifted off of my shoulders. I love the idea of having it be just the three of us for awhile, of finishing school without having to go to my classes pregnant, of feeling like it was my choice to have a baby instead of knowing I just gave in to peer pressure! I feel like knowing I chose to be a mom the next time can only make me a better mom. I know in the world outside of the church it sounds ridiculous that this idea was so revolutionary to me, but I know that in a year or so we will start getting questions from people at church, family, friends, etc. I feel so much more peace over this idea, though, and feel like I can somehow more enjoy my son knowing that he was not the beginning of an inevitable chain reaction that I have no control over.

    I’m definitely anticipating judgment and unsolicited advice, but acknowledging that this will make me a happier person and a better mom doesn’t make me a bad person, just like it wouldn’t if we decided not to have any more children at all (which could happen, honestly. Who knows?) I think the big family thing is more a product of Mormon culture than doctrine and as such I have no guilt over pretty much ignoring it completely for the time being. This is what is best for us.

    (I put my name as anon. because we haven’t mentioned this plan to our family yet and would rather they didn’t come across it on a blog comment) :-)

    Comment by anonymous — January 1, 2009 @ 12:55 pm

  7. I’ve lived in Utah most of my life and never experienced any intrusive remarks about our family size. (Married almost 5 years, one one-year-old.) So, I really haven’t felt the same pressure/feelings toward “multiplying and replenishing” as you. Everyone in the church I’ve met seems to understand that each family is unique: quantity is irrelevant.

    Comment by ddrplant — January 1, 2009 @ 1:10 pm

  8. again (like almost any other topic we discussed recently..) it really does depend. I have ALWAYS wanted a huge family. Don’t know why. My mom didn’t want to have any kids and then ended up with six. My sister’s not that eager to add too soon to their family… they have just one, lovely, sweet, very high-maintenance two year old.

    My husband and I are very good friends with a couple that has two, and literally feels like their sanity would be challenged to have more. They like their two-kid-two-parent family and the culture in their home that results from that.

    On the other hand, I have three so far and would still LOVE a dozen. At this point. I reserve the right to change my mind at any moment in time :) I really think every family is different, is MEANT to be different not only in parenting style, family traditions, priorities, but also in the number of kids, too.

    Comment by sare — January 1, 2009 @ 1:21 pm

  9. I’ve always said that we could be the poster family for Planned Parenthood, except for the fact that we have six kids. Somehow, I think that the fact that their births all were planned perfectly wouldn’t override the family size for that organization.

    We married thinking five. We thought we were done after four. (Two years between each of the first three births - three years between #3 and #4) A couple of years later, when our finances were more secure than ever before, we decided to have one more - so there are three years between #4 and #5. We were convinced that was all we would have.

    Three years later, we had an experience that made it crystal clear we should have one more. DW actually had been feeling that for a few months, but she knew I was convinced even more than she had been that we were done. It took a spiritual two-by-four upside my head, but there now are four years between #5 and #6. We both agree that it would take an actual divine visit (by someone other than just an angel) to prompt us to have another one.

    I believe strongly that all couples should have however many they believe they are supposed to have and can handle - and not one more. I would far rather a family have none than have any other number destroy the health and/or sanity of either parent. Thankfully, the official Church counsel is that this is a personal decision; I wish the church membership accepted that counsel and simply butted out of it for others.

    Comment by Ray — January 1, 2009 @ 1:50 pm

  10. I have been married for 7 years…and no kids yet, which has been entirely planned.

    Being a military spouse, we have moved a lot, and your question is one I loathe. When did it become everyone else’s business when DH and I start our family?? So now when people ask, I just tell them b/c I am selfish. What else are they really expecting? I will not be guilted into making a life altering decision that really doesn’t involve my ward!

    I take comfort now that our families love us for who we are, and after a sincere heart to heart with the potential grandmothers, they have stopped asking. We plan on having kids, and actively discuss it.

    Comment by Mary — January 1, 2009 @ 2:05 pm

  11. I have 3 and we are so very “done”! But you know, 5 years ago I wanted a dozen, so I am quite aware that given 5 more years, my ideas may change again, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

    I’m about your age and my kids are ages 2-6 including special needs, and we’re very sure that another child would do us all in. I know that feeling, you want to insist, “believe me when I say we’re done done done!” - but those strong feelings based on the information you have right now doesn’t mean decisions should be set in stone even when we have the new insight and experiences of age 35 or 40.

    In 8 years my crew will be ages 10-14, and maybe a new baby or two will sound great. or still sound crazy! who knows! :)

    what I do know is that in life things change. finances. needs of the other kids. physical health. psychological health. the strength of the desire for a child and the strength of desire for other pursuits.

    Comment by cchrissyy — January 1, 2009 @ 2:07 pm

  12. after having our first we decided one was enough. i don’t consider it selfish, but even if it is, that’s fine with me. how people ever willingly put themselves through all that again, i’ll never understand and i didn’t even have to go through the pregnancy/childbirth fun (directly) being male and all

    Comment by D — January 1, 2009 @ 2:16 pm

  13. I went on a date in college with one of the more popular guys. I told him there were four people in my family. He took that for four kids. I had to correct him. It was so awkward. He totally judged me. He came from 11 kids and was all “so you don’t want a big family?” I wanted to tell him that I remembered driving by his house in high school (his younger brother was my age) and kids were hanging off the balcony, his mom never knew where anyone was and life just seemed so chaotic.

    Meanwhile, back at my house, my mom was able to do a job she loved and get two master degrees, all while attending our concerts and sporting events. I made the decision then and there that I’d have a small family — and I eventually married an only child who feels the same way.

    Comment by Natalie — January 1, 2009 @ 2:20 pm

  14. Ray, I agree with your statements and yet feel compelled to pick at them

    “I would far rather a family have none than have any other number destroy the health and/or sanity of either parent.”

    I agree, but unfortunately, other than divine intervention, ordinary people cannot know in advance whether a parent is heading over the edge, or whether the next possible child is going to be more or less difficult than the norm.

    “I believe strongly that all couples should have however many they believe they are supposed to have and can handle - and not one more.”
    I would agree here too, except I know people (in several religions) who feel so unworthy and so awful about their failings that they have children to prove their faith. For instance, a devout Catholic woman I knew in her 30s who dislikes kids and never wanted any but her time is running out and she “knows” it is her destiny and “knows” that is she moves forth with faith God will bless her and make her into a good and happy mom anyway. It makes the “knowing what you can handle” irrelevant because you “know” God won’t give more than you can handle or you “know” he will expand your capacity to handle it once the baby comes. If the load looks impossible now, have that baby anyway and God will lighten the load!

    And I don’t only mean in terms of a woman not liking mothering or a woman feeling emotionally unprepared for the job ahead. I’ve seen this same faith and reasoning in the face of dire physical health problems, bad marriages, and poverty.

    And -honestly now- I believed it not that long ago.

    Comment by cchrissyy — January 1, 2009 @ 2:27 pm

  15. We’ve been married for about a year and a half, and we’ve never gotten a question about kids. I think that is partly because I come across as pretty independent and ambitious, and I don’t think anyone thinks for a second that I’ll drop my schooling and/or activism to raise a kajillion children. I mean, I wouldn’t say I’m career-driven, but I have pretty clear ideas about what I want to do. Quite a few things have to happen before children can fit into that picture. I think the minute someone assumes we live outside of Utah so that my husband can go to dental/medical school, and sees the disgusted/quizzical/blah look on my face (ahem, actually he’s going to art school, and I’m going to work in the labor movement…. yes, as in labor unions….), they stop trying to advise us on our future. :)

    We used to think we wanted three “with room for an accident”, but now we’ve put that down to two “with room for an accident”, and we want one of those to be adopted. I can’t imagine giving birth a whole bunch of times. I used to be terrified just by super-size tampons….. a babies head?! Whew.

    But, I do have to say….. last year, all the 20-something women in my ward were pregnant, and now there are newborn babies taking over the chapel….. and seeing those angelic little creatures….. oy….. We had to get some kitties to stave off our biological urges. :)

    Comment by Natalie — January 1, 2009 @ 2:32 pm

  16. #13, Natalie - Hi! :)
    For those who might be confused, I’m the Natalie that wrote #15 above and the post about dishwashers a few weeks ago.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 1, 2009 @ 2:34 pm

  17. I was pretty much in exactly the same situation as you. I got married at 30, had 3 kids (the oldest was 3 when the third was born) and felt like I was drowning. It seemed like they would be little forever. Then they reached elementary school age and it was so fun - I loved having the 3 close. I totally enjoyed their teenage years and thought it would have been nice to have more. Now that the youngest is on a mission, I feel a deep void at not having more kids. I would love the interaction of a larger family.
    Everyone is different and for a lot of people, 3 is plenty of kids. Don’t feel pressured to have more. Just remember that they won’t always be little and so much work.

    Comment by Sally — January 1, 2009 @ 2:50 pm

  18. Ha! I get this all the time. I’m pretty young, so people assume that I want a ton of kids, wanted three got four adore them all. I’m glad I had the opportunity to have my kids when I was young because then I would have the energy and enthusiasm to experience my children. I had older parents, I am the youngest of twelve, and my parents were just plain old tired, grumpy, and neglectful in a lot of ways.
    After the birth of our little surprise I had my tubes tied. Medical complications coupled with bad responses to birth control (it makes me a non-functioning depressed mean woman) led us to that being our best option. Now when people ask me how many more kids I want and they are surprised that my answer is zero, I simply inform them of my birth control choices. I love seeing people’s faces. They asked, I’ll tell. :)

    Comment by anonymous — January 1, 2009 @ 3:11 pm

  19. I’m feeling really fortunate right now, because I live in northern Utah county and MOST of the families in our ward have three kids - I’ve never encountered the pressure to have a bigger family. The one woman in our ward who has seven kids is met with awe ninety percent of the time (and I know this annoys her endlessly, but - what can I say, she’s awe inspiring - seven kids and she still finds time to shower).

    I’ve never been confronted with astonishment that I have three from non-members either. Even living in Vegas, people were never shocked by three kids. I can see if I had four or five, but three? That’s pretty close to the national average, isn’t it?

    Maybe I’m just really oblivious. Actually, now that I think of it, that may have a lot to do with it ;>

    Comment by Sue — January 1, 2009 @ 4:29 pm

  20. I never had to deal with nosy-posies about my family planning choices. My oldest was 10 when my 5th was born (5 kids, 7 pregnancies - that seems like a lot in 10 years but it didn’t seem too much at the time). I felt done. I felt like I was an okay mom to the ones I had; why push myself beyond what I felt like I could do? But I looked around me at the people with 6, 7, or 8, looked at my husband with a good job, looked at us doing okay in our parenting, and felt all this guilt at not having more children. Was I being selfish? There wasn’t anything WRONG; I felt very healthy physically, mentally, emotionally. Why couldn’t I feel okay about my decision, why did I take someone else’s different choice as a judgement on mine? I certainly didnt’ look at my friends with fewer children and think they were selfish or should be doing something different. I still don’t know why I looked at myself that way. It took me a while to be at peace with where we were; my youngest is now 5. I guess some people would say that inner conflict was perhaps a sign that I should have had more - but I knew that wasn’t it. Whenever I went to the Lord the answer I got was, “Have more kids - okay. Don’t have more - okay.” Perhaps sometimes we just need to have a little more confidence in ourselves as thinking, reasoning, feeling daughters of God. so this is no answer here, just my thoughts and experience.

    Comment by TXgirl — January 1, 2009 @ 4:34 pm

  21. I inherited a Mormon family after dating a Mormon boy, and while he left when I didn’t convert, they are still mine :) Both of his sisters had decided to have 2 children, due to terrible sickness during pregnancy. No one judged them, they didn’t seem embarrassed to “admit” their choice, etc. It was a matter of fact “I love my children but I can’t go through this again”. Everyone in their family seemed very supportive, although they did come from a ward with 12 kids, 9 kids, their own family had 5, etc.

    At least here in Dallas, and at least from my Dry Mormon perspective, it seems that 3 has become the norm. In fact, when I mention that I want 4, many of my Mormon friends roll their eyes and exclaim they could never handle it, haha. I think it’s definitely a cultural thing.

    Also, as a side note, I think that the obsession with large families is an indirect result of *so* much emphasis being placed on motherhood equaling priesthood, the woman having all her power in raising righteous children, etc. The more kids you have, the more “important” you are, in a way. You are responsible for even more little souls to guide and teach. Maybe that is a subconscious thing, or a conscious competitive thing. The questions of “are you having any more?” coming from a mother of 10 to a mother of 3 seems rather pointed to me. Almost like a passive aggressive kind of dig, you know?

    Comment by sophia*rising — January 1, 2009 @ 4:50 pm

  22. We have 4 kids (our youngest is 4 1/2) and we constantly get questioned at church about having more. We’ve lived in the same ward for 14 years and all of our kids have been born here. I just smile and tell them that I agreed to birth the first 4 and my husband said he’d have the second 4. I’m still waiting.

    I find that most of the questions and prodding come from women (and men) whose own self-esteems hinge on the number of kids they have and their accomplishments. They find it very hard to believe that we don’t share the same opinion. It’s also humorous that a lot of the people who ask only had 1 or 2 themselves. Regrets maybe?

    Comment by CABeth — January 1, 2009 @ 5:10 pm

  23. we are in southern california with four kids five and under and most non-members think we’re crazy… heck, most members agree! when we were living in los angeles, no one our age had as many kids as we did and it was common for people, whether in the ward or outside of it, to only have one or two kids. we’ve since moved somewhere more rural and while there’s still no one our age who is this “crazy,” there are at least people a generation ahead of us who are… that wasn’t common in la.

    i have been called a “breeder” and worse. my sister came home from work in tears after announcing the birth of our fourth baby. she said she couldn’t believe how nasty her coworkers were about the horrible things my family was doing to the earth and so on.

    i think it’s mostly a regional thing, moreso than a religious thing. even at the catholic school our oldest attends, we’re the anomaly. economics in southern california don’t allow for eight kids as readily as those of idaho, you know?

    Comment by makakona — January 1, 2009 @ 5:28 pm

  24. ut I looked around me at the people with 6, 7, or 8, looked at my husband with a good job, looked at us doing okay in our parenting, and felt all this guilt at not having more children. Was I being selfish?

    This is an attitude that, as this thread shows, occurs frequently among LDS women. But I can’t understand why. Selfishness means that you are putting yourself before others. How is restricting the number of children you have to a healthy amount selfish? Who is hurting by that action? Is there a single being that is losing out? Not that I can see. Deciding not to have children doesn’t even necessarily mean you put yourself first. I can see many people who benefit from that decision….. mother, other children, father, just as starters. Our goal should be to provide a happy and stable life for as many children as we do have (whether that be one or 15). It should not be to always live with the maximum number of children our resources (and bodies!) allow.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 1, 2009 @ 6:01 pm

  25. I’m sorry, Lisa and everyone else who gets judged for having “too few” kids. I don’t think it’s any mystery, though, where the “you should have as many kids as you possibly can” attitude comes from. I believe into the 1970s, General Authorities routinely linked birth control with abortion and feminism as great evils of the modern world. President Kimball in particular really hated the idea of men getting vasectomies, if I recall correctly.

    As Ray notes (#9) the current Church counsel regarding family size is much more hands off. But I don’t think we should be surprised that it takes a l..o..n..g time for all the old attitudes to go away. After all, Church leaders condemned limiting the size of one’s family in pretty strong terms. Add to that the problem that they hardly ever come out and say “we’re changing our counsel on this topic” so there’s really no reason that people who believe that birth control is pure evil can’t continue to listen to present GA statements in that light. (”Hmm. They said that family size is between the couple and the Lord. That’s just a softer way of saying that if you artificially limit the size of your family, you’re under the influence of the devil.”) Perhaps in another generation or two, the new hands off counsel will become truly dominant.

    Comment by Ziff — January 1, 2009 @ 6:37 pm

  26. This topic hits way too close to home with me. I’ve struggled a lot (A LOT) with “only” having three children. For health reasons, we haven’t felt right about having any more. Making that choice to not have more has been incredibly difficult for me, and continues to be. I have too often equated my worth with the number of children I have. And that is simply wrong.

    BUT (and this is a big but) I think it’s incredibly important to realize it’s not the Church’s fault or the doctrine’s fault that any of us feel that way.

    The culture or individual people’s intrusion on a personal choice might contribute to feelings of guilt, etc. We sometimes cross boundaries into each others’ lives when we shouldn’t. The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is personal, between a couple and God.

    BUT that doesn’t change the standard, the commandment, the doctrine, and we shouldn’t confuse the significance of the doctrine with the mistakes that people make in trying to interpret that doctrine for or impose the doctrine on others.

    The danger is not in the doctrine (because the doctrine includes wisdom and order!!!). The danger is when we impose our personal approach with the doctrine on others, or try to pressure someone one way or the other (there are those who try to *discoursge* people from having *more* children, just as there are those who try to pressure a couple to have children).

    Comment by m&m — January 1, 2009 @ 6:41 pm

  27. I have two kids, almost 4 and almost 2, and the thought of a third makes my internal overload alarm start beeping. My husband would love a third and a fourth, but then he also has a somewhat inflated view of my capabilities and sanity. The discussion is officially on hold, but it’s coming up again soon. I’m really glad to read this post and hear that someone out there has the same concerns I do.

    We got married late, by Mormon standards, and several years later still hadn’t produced children. For a while there our boilerplate response to “When are you going to have kids?” was “We’d be happy to call you every time we try!” Everyone laughed, but the questions — from both family and ward members — stopped pretty quick.

    Comment by Libby — January 1, 2009 @ 7:18 pm

  28. Perhaps in another generation or two, the new hands off counsel will become truly dominant.

    I think, though, that even with the ‘hands-off’ approach, the fundamental doctrines are still there, and there repeatedly. The underpinnings really haven’t changed. Having children is still a convenantal responsibility, a commandment.

    Even if you read the True to the Faith entry on birth control (which is one of the places the whole ‘this is a personal decision’ thing shows up), it’s about teaching principles (the importance of the commandment to multiply and replenish, the blessing and responsibility to have children) but then letting us use agency (with its attendant responsibility).

    Sometimes I think people equate the fact that we are given that space to make the choices about the commandment with changing doctrinal underpinnings, and I think that is not accurate.

    I did a post (in two parts) on this reviewing more recent teachings on the topic of multiplying and replenishing a while ago. I hardly think we are seeing the *doctrinal* teaching change. Again, allowing space for couples to make their choices , imo, should not be mistaken as being so different from the driving doctrines even behind specific statements made about birth control (which, still even ‘back then’ it’s important to note, included allowances for wisdom and order, esp. in consideration of a woman’s health).

    Comment by m&m — January 1, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

  29. BTW, Lisa, I had my three children in quick succession like you did (not in our original plan, but now I’m so grateful they came when they did because my health stuff hit shortly after #3 was born).

    FWIW, I have found that the last few years (mine are five years older than yours) have been a lot different (for me, a lot easier) than when they were little. Those early years were hard for me for lots of reasons, even as I loved my children fiercely (and miss their littleness now).

    As I say that, I can’t help but wonder if people who say, ‘are you sure’? or ‘you might change your mind’ might be simply reflecting that reality that time really can change our perspective sometimes. I’m not saying you *should* change your mind — just saying that I can understand why people might ask that. (I think about where I was when my kids were 5, 4, and 3, and it’s much different than how I feel now. I don’t mean that to sound condescending — it’s just the way life is. Time does sometimes (not always) change our perspective and decisions.

    Again, my reality is because of my health we haven’t felt right about having more, but I don’t think I could have imagined how different being a mother would feel after five years.

    I think sometimes it’s good to leave some space, though, that time and inspiration *might* — just might — change our view.

    So I guess I just want to say — maybe we shouldn’t be too upset with people who say things like that. They may be in part mourning their own passage of time and communicating a little of how they have ended up feeling looking back. I know even I feel some of that reading your words (like ‘don’t shut that door before you even have to, because you won’t believe how fast they grow up!’) — even as I haven’t been able to have more, and understand reasons why having more isn’t always wise. Does that make sense?

    Comment by m&m — January 1, 2009 @ 7:58 pm

  30. Then again, maybe that is an example of crossing a line, and if I did, I’m sorry.

    \

    Comment by m&m — January 1, 2009 @ 8:09 pm

  31. The underpinnings really haven’t changed. Having children is still a convenantal responsibility, a commandment.

    why?

    (yes, i know, i will totally be in the minority on this but dang-it, i want to know why, in this day of overpopulation and the stress we humans place on the environment, why is it necessary-a commandment- for us to keep creating little consumption units? tell me, why isn’t adoption enough?)

    phew. i’ve been wanting to say that for years.

    Comment by mfranti — January 1, 2009 @ 8:12 pm

  32. mfranti (#31), I agree. And I really doubt God would hold it against a couple if they adopted three children that would not have been cared for otherwise instead of doing it “the old fashioned way” three times. As far as I can see it, you are still very much contributing to the future of society, and are rearing children in truth and righteousness. If pregnancy and childbearing were required to fulfill all of God’s commands and a woman’s divine role, it would make certain famous Biblical women much harder to look up to.

    Even without adoption, I think there are many ways for a woman to be a “mother”. Some are mothers to their neighbors, community, or even their whole nation. We shouldn’t think God was so limited in his view of us that the only way we could achieve our fullest potential was by carrying children (though that is a truly beautiful act…. that I’m absolutely terrified to do someday).

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 1, 2009 @ 8:30 pm

  33. m&m - I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to when you allude to “fundamental doctrines”. Is that just the whole “multiply and replenish” thing? Because I don’t think that necessarily relates to family size (in our day and age, limiting family size might actually be a better method of ‘replenishing’ the earth and its resources). Sorry, since I am not planning on having children for several years, I’m not well-versed in the “doctrines” surrounding childbearing. Could you spell it out for me?

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 1, 2009 @ 8:33 pm

  34. I live in Salt Lake and have been “in the church” my whole life. I have 3 children and am DONE!!!!! I have only had 1 person comment that we “As Mormons” should have more children directed at me personally.

    I just asked my husband if he ever felt pressure to have more children from the church. He said he wouldn’t care if he had been pressured. I feel that his experience of no comments comes from him being a man in the church. Maybe I’m wrong.

    I have more comments from non-members about having such a “small Mormon family”. But I have felt guilt for not having more children.

    I have wondered if couples were going to have children, but WILL NOT ASK them. That is PERSONAL!!!

    Comment by Jill — January 1, 2009 @ 8:38 pm

  35. After two I thought a third would be impossible. After three I thought no way (99% sure).
    We now have four. It is awesome.
    If I was “younger” I would consider having more.
    You might just consider that the people who have spoken to you might just know what you feel. If a sixteen year old swears to never fall in love again because they’d just been dumped, wouldn’t you point out that maybe, just maybe they might change their minds?
    My oldest two are 11 and 9. I’ve lived a lifetime in that time.

    Comment by jks — January 1, 2009 @ 8:43 pm

  36. […] wonder if there isn’t more to such a concept. Right before I was ready to publish this note, I read over at Feminist Mormon Housewives about pressure to have more children and, in a way, a sens…. Why do we get people to rack their lives over such issues as these, when they should be happy and […]

    Pingback by Guilt and Repentance « Irresistible (Dis)Grace — January 1, 2009 @ 8:52 pm

  37. I just had #2 and we both want to stop there. The doctors (none of whom are LDS) know this; we discussed our family planning while discussing the broader issue of a c-section. The day after I had my baby, one of the doctors told my husband, “Your wife has such beautiful ovaries, it’d be a shame not to use them again.” That is probably the oddest compliment I have ever recieved.

    Comment by Quimby — January 1, 2009 @ 9:15 pm

  38. I APPLAUD those who know what they want (small family! big family! mid-size family!) and HAVE it. I think there is still very much the mentality that number of children is equivalent to the righteousness of the mother (father not affected–only his ability to provide is considered). I am from a big family and really enjoyed the experience, but I have siblings who did not and know others from large families who say as adults that they felt neglected as children in a crowd. I have also observed large families run amok–where it just seemed very clear to those in the next circle out that another child (or 2 or 3) would be, well, extraordinarily chaotic.

    We all have our own issues and I deeply respect those who can be honest with themselves. I don’t think I am very objective about myself, but I sure am great at being objective about others :) ! I had a friend who had three kids right in a row–123–and when I was marveling at her during that last pregnancy, her response was “well my mom did it, so I guess I can.” The thing is, her mom didn’t do it–her mom abandoned her 3 little kids who were placed in foster care because her mom was overwhelmed. It astounded me that my friend was totally blanking on that part of her history and using a false history to talk herself into this situation. Anyway–let us all try to make rational decisions for ourselves and be mothers of quality.

    mfranti–I love that you point out adoption as a response to that. Personally, I am somewhat troubled by artificial means to conceive in the face of kids who need families. That seems like a more selfish choice to me. I realize that is a controversial opinion and don’t want to jack the conversation except to say “I LOVE ADOPTION.”

    Comment by ESO — January 1, 2009 @ 9:21 pm

  39. PS–I think a large family is often very hard for a mother to recover from. After being in the trenches for 5-12 little lifehoods, it seems that it is hard for many women to “find themselves” when everyone is less dependent on her. Harder to transition into work, community, even hobbies appear to be too self-indulgent. I don’t think this is a particularly healthy or balanced state, but I think it often afflicts moms (again, not dads) who have invested so much (too much?) into others.

    Comment by ESO — January 1, 2009 @ 9:27 pm

  40. My goodness! On my mission I saw firsthand that So Cal wards could be the equal of Utah in prudery and fanaticism. But you’re showing (this, the literature thing) that Cal can exceed any of the Davis County wards I’ve been in–and I never thought Davis County could be surpassed in mindless conformity! For the most part, I think the average family size among Mormons has dropped considerably in the Book of Mormon Belt, though not as far as among the general populace.

    While I can understand your frustration, Lisa, I can also relate to the thought of those who tell you that you could change your mind. I’ve discovered in my own life that one can never say never. I don’t pretend that we can set our lives in stone. Life changes; our circumstances change, and they change us along with them. There are many choices in my life which I would never have conceived of making several years ago; in my younger years I never would have dreamed that I would be making the political and social decisions I make today. As inconceivable as it seems that I would ever make any number of choices, I am reluctant to ever say “never,” because I never know when my perceptions might change, or that I might feel directed by divine powers to make a particular choice.

    My wife and I cannot imagine having fewer than four children; in our perception, any fewer is not a family for us (disclaimer: I am not saying that everyone needs to have a “large” family, only that nothing less would feel like a family for us). However, our opinion on that may change when we have finally been able to welcome a couple into our family. Indeed, the very fact that some rather unusual and sensitive challenges have prevented us from doing so thus far has made us reluctantly consider the possibility that we might not end up with as many as we hope. Who knows? Perhaps we’ll end up with six (the number we feel is our limit) and then feel prompted to take on more.

    But no one should feel pressured to have a larger family than they themselves feel comfortable with. That decision–even the decision to get married or to have children in the first place–is nobody’s business but the individuals directly involved. You know your capacities, your limits, and your personal direction from above. Embrace the beautiful gifts you’ve received into your household, and don’t allow outsiders to detract from that joy.

    re: 3

    We sure can relate, That1girl! Though my in-laws and ward members stopped bugging us when we started being outrageously embarrassing in response to their prying. “Gee, we can’t seem to figure out how to have kids. Can you explain? Do you have any diagrams or pictures?”

    re: 14

    You make some very good points. Much of life is about trying things with which we feel uncomfortable or about which we feel unsure of our capacity, and allowing the experience and our Father to stretch our capacities.

    Not that this in any way means anyone should feel pressured by any earthly source to take on more children than they feel able.

    re: 21

    Insightful theory about the notion of large families, motherhood, and priesthood.

    re: 25

    Interesting you note that. My recently released bishop had a vasectomy about a year back, for which he took a lot of heat from family and some friends.

    (no, he wasn’t released for being heretical. He’s moving soon. We’re still in mourning)

    re: 31

    I am totally with you on the issue of consumption, M. But I think we should keep that distinct from the issue of population. We could all reproduce much more rapidly and still the earth would have enough for us all. I think that the planet cannot sustain the sort of profligacy which has become the bedrock of the “American way of life,” particularly as the rest of the planet tries to emulate that way of life. But I believe widespread fertility would be perfectly sustainable if we were to accept a more simple, less commercial lifestyle and economic system.

    I do believe it is a responsibility to help provide welcoming families for premortal siblings. How we can best fulfill that responsibility is for each individual family to determine with God’s help.

    re: 37

    How does one respond to admiration for one’s internal organs? Is that objectification, or healthy respect? Yes, truly a strange compliment…

    Comment by Derek — January 1, 2009 @ 9:57 pm

  41. I thought this sort of intrusiveness had gone the way of those large plastic grapes that RS sisters made for craft projects in the 1960s. I never experienced it myself (two children now in their twenties), and I don’t perceive it at all among the women in my ward, although I’m in Illinois so this may be a regional thing. Here we’re just thrilled to have you and however many kids you have. Maybe I just don’t perceive it because I’m a man, but then my wife hasn’t perceived it either.

    I’m very sorry that there are still pockets in the Church where this kind of intrusiveness and pressure is still the norm. I think it’s perfectly acceptable next time that happens to ask the inquirer why s/he thinks it’s any of his or her business. Seriously. Our cultural trait of Mormon niceness goes too far sometime; we should call people on their inappropriateness more often than we do.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — January 1, 2009 @ 10:00 pm

  42. LisaJ

    Could it be possible that you are taking peoples’ comments too personally? I have found that many people see the topic of family planning as mundane topic of conversation like the weather. The topic might be very personal to many of us, but a lot of folks are very open about their family planning and assume that everyone else is too. I frequently have people both inside and outside of the church asking me if I’m going to have more children. I doubt they are very interested in my family plans; they are just shooting the breeze.

    I really wish more people would keep the specifics of family planning to themselves, but that isn’t the culture we live in apparently.

    Comment by rk — January 1, 2009 @ 10:36 pm

  43. You could always kindly point out that President Monson and President Uchtdorf are both fathers of two. The number of children one has is not a measurement of righteousness or lack of it.

    Comment by Patti — January 1, 2009 @ 10:44 pm

  44. My husband and I have found an interesting middle ground: foster parenting. It keeps most people in the ward from asking questions about when we are going to have a baby, since they wrongly assume that we must be infertile and we are trying to adopt through foster care! Wrong wrong wrong. Really, we just love caring for children for short periods of time, enjoying them, and loving them, and then having a break! It also gives me the chance to be a “stay at home mom” without feeling the guilt of just sitting around childless.

    We’re just getting finished with a month long break and we asked to be put on the placement list again. I love kids, and I feel like God has given us this unique calling, but I also love having those breaks in between placements to be selfish! And if we ever have our own kids, fine, but in the meantime I’m loving being a parent and not a parent at the same time! :-)

    Comment by Lauren — January 1, 2009 @ 10:47 pm

  45. I could totally have handled a large family. But after 18 years of marriage and then a divorce, I am grateful there aren’t any other babies to go through the two household situation.

    I have 4 years between #1 and #2. After more than a year of trying for the second, an old aunt came up to me at a family reunion and told me it was time I start on #2. I burst into tears and said, “from your mouth to God’s ears!” She was stunned, but was much more polite after that, especially when I showed up the next year with my baby boy.

    Comment by bigmama — January 1, 2009 @ 11:28 pm

  46. I come from a family of 12 children. Which is why I had 2. Only 2. No more. I have one boy and one girl. That pretty much covers the bases.

    And then I had a uterine ablasion. Which is absolutely the BEST thing to do when you are done having babies. Basically it cauterizes the uterus. No more babies. No more periods (hello and amen) but no loss of hormones. Recovery time is one day.

    I had a few people in the church give me crap about only having two kids. My response was typically “I had ovarian cancer at 17. I am lucky to have any children at all.” or “Yes, two children and it is great because we have the time. money and attention to make sure that these kids are raised the best that we can.”

    The other thing about only two kids. I am 41 with a 21 year old and an 18 year old. That is right! It is party time. I get to enjoy the joy of being kid-free now. Sweet!

    Comment by StillConfused — January 1, 2009 @ 11:49 pm

  47. 35
    jks, you captured what well what I was trying to say, but so much more succinctly. Thanks.

    33, Natalie,
    FWIW, I wasn’t trying to imply that the doctrine necessarily will translate to family size (we all know that there are many factors that affect family size, and choice is only one of them).

    As to the doctrines and teachings surrounding the commandment to multiply and replenish, it’s hardly my job to ’spell it out for you.’ However, if you are interested in seeing some of the teachings that I thought were valuable and helpful and important, in a way that was helpful to me, the links I provided to my blog include a study on the topic I did earlier this year. But what is there is not comprehensive (there are many more things that have been said on the topic than what I included there), and (I hope it goes without saying) that the best way, imo, to figure out what the teachings are is to do your own study (I clustered and organized teachings in a way that were useful to me — what you are interested in looking at might be different, of course).

    Comment by m&m — January 2, 2009 @ 12:06 am

  48. I have 5 children. My favorite quote concerning children: ” Wouldn’t sell any of them for a million dollars, but I wouldn’t give a plug nickel for another one”

    Comment by 5monsters — January 2, 2009 @ 12:15 am

  49. Personally, I don’t think the issue here is what the “right” family size is. I think most people on this site would agree, to some extent or another, that we are commanded to “multiple an replenish the earth” to the extent we are able, given our human frailties, weaknesses, and individual situations. For some that can mean 12 kids, for another none. We don’t know and can’t say, not being that individual. And its really none of our business.

    I think the issue is whether it anyone other than the Savior can pass judgment on another based on their family size. And I would have to say - no, it isn’t their right. One commentor noted that it is just a conversation topic, like the weather. I would say that I think it is more like a conversation topic like “do you wipe back to front or front to back?” or “how often do you have sex?” Both of these questions are impertinent and rude.

    I think we sometimes, when hearing the phrase “judge ye not unrighteously” focus too much on the “unrighteously” and less on the “judge ye not.” Specific individuals are called to judge one another, and in very specific instances - bishops, for instance, when dealing with a trangression issue. I would probably think that Lisa’s bishop’s comment to her about “really being done” wasn’t so much a prompting as it was a “in my experience, most women your age I have met in the church change their mind” passing comment. She could probably ask him if it was a specific revelation for her, but I would guess that it was just more of an “its rains alot in March, we are probably in for more stormy weather” comment.

    Comment by Katie — January 2, 2009 @ 12:23 am

  50. we all know that there are many factors that affect family size, and choice is only one of them

    Actually, that isn’t right. Sometimes we have no control over family size.

    I think the issue is whether it anyone other than the Savior can pass judgment on another based on their family size. And I would have to say - no, it isn’t their right.

    And I would hope (and suspect) that people here who have commented agree.

    But by the same token, I think comments like jks’ are worth reading, too… sometimes life can throw a curveball, and/or our perspectives can change over time.

    I think often of Sister Holland, who has said something along the lines of, “I wanted eight children, and got three. Some of you wanted three, and got eight.” If there is any evidence of how life sometimes doesn’t turn out how you planned, family size is a good example, imo. :)

    Comment by m&m — January 2, 2009 @ 12:42 am

  51. #29, m&m: Oh do I understand the whole idea of plans changing.

    For example, we never planned to have three in such quick succession. Never. God, however, had his own plans.

    We plan, God laughs. Yep.

    I understand that with time comes changes, but I have to make a decision, my husband and I both, based on our ability and my mental and physical health. It would simply not be a good idea.

    And with the first three so close together, I think they deserve a little time with their parents. I miss my oldest so much. I had so little time with her. And I can’t imagine having a fourth who is so far away from the others age-wise.

    It just doesn’t sit right with me. It would be a bad idea. Health issues. Patience. If I could handle it, if I was wired differently, I might have another. I love babies, but it would be completely unfair to the three I have now. They need me too. It would absolutely be selfish of me to have more and more detrimental to my health than is already. I need time for me, too. If that’s selfish, so be it.

    That’s all. (and no worries :))

    #31, mfranti: You know, there’s a recent talk that discusses overpopulation. (and I don’t say this to refute your point, just an article/talk I heard a few years ago that has stuck with me and probably played a part in my guilt)

    “While some areas of the world are experiencing a negative impact from extreme population density, the world as a whole is actually moving in the opposite direction. Indeed, research indicates that by the year 2040 world population will peak and begin to decline”

    - Strengthening the Family: Multiply and Replenish the Earth

    Oy.

    #49, Katie: lol. You mean to say you don’t ask others if they wipe from front to back or not? haha. Good one.

    Yeah, see, I generally keep my mouth shut. If I’m curious and the timing seems right, I’ll ask but I’m always careful and I never judge. It’s none of my business. A topic of conversation? Sure. But just once, just once I’d like to hear someone say “Cool” instead of “Oh you never know.” wtf?

    Actually I have had one friend respond like that, but she’s unabl to have children. If there’s anyone who knows what it’s like to be judged about children or lack thereof, its her. I’d love to be there the day she blows and snaps “I can’t have babies” to those who push.

    Comment by LisaJ — January 2, 2009 @ 12:53 am

  52. Over the holidays, I met up with some friends that I haven’t seen for almost 15 years. There were 6 of us and 2 of the 6 (me included) were married with children. One of them has been considering having a child. She is recently divorced. She has thought about going it alone with either, anonymous or known sperm donor. Anyway, me and the other mom were talking to her about our experience. As long as I have known my friend, she has never wanted children, but she is considering it now. I told her that she should wait until she is more emotionally stable (was very recently divorced) and ready, and that if she was questioning it at all, it may not be a good time. The other mom, was pretty much telling her to have children regardless. Anyway, I left feeling like we both gave her bad advice. It is totally a personal decision. The only thing I did not feel bad about is telling her that she needs a partner/spouse or a very strong network of other mom/friends/family to help her because it is not an easy job and very hard to do all on your own.

    That said, I am 35 and prego with my 3rd and FINAL! I feel really good about it. I have not problem telling others about it. I work in the disability field and your chances for problems go up exponentially after 36. I also am ready for another phase of my life. I truly enjoy my older children and love my life now that my kids are older. We don’t have the next baby until our children are a little older, toileting themselves and a little more independent. It really helps to not be so s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d with your time and talents.

    If people have a problem with it, they can just bite it. That’s my solution. I don’t have a problem with the issue being between a couple and Heavenly Father. I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    Comment by Katie K — January 2, 2009 @ 1:43 am

  53. Well… I want to have a big family just because I Loved my family and wished there were more of us (there were 6 of us) and that we were closer together (there were about 2 1/2-4 years between each of us kids).

    But I do get troubled when I hear about people having a bad experience with their big family. I like to think I can strategize and create family traditions and conscientiously spend alone time with each kiddo, and stop whatever I”m doing to play on the floor with someone or have a discussion. But maybe it’s just not possible after a certain point? I guess that’s why it’s important to not lock yourself into a plan and do it regardless of how you’re handling your current family.

    Re adoption: We’re adopting 2 kids sometime in the next several months (pray that all our paperwork will work and our court process will go through)! It will take us from 3 to 5 kids. I love adoption, have always loved the idea of it and am glad I have a spouse who supports this effort (which some would call unwise, because we’re adopting at the expense of saving for a house, buying a reliable car, etc.)

    We all just have to follow what we know we want and can handle. I think Heavenly father plants desires in each of our hearts and so usually, those desires are what we’re supposed to pursue. Whether it be a large family, or a writing career, or making your home a haven for foster kids and troubled children, etc.

    Comment by sare — January 2, 2009 @ 2:23 am

  54. I was up until 2am last night thinking about JUST this subject, and now it shows up on fMh. Coincidence? I think not.

    We had our first son 10 weeks early last October (two steps ahead of a double funeral) and our daughter was born 11 months later (yea for birth control failure and the military giving my husband a 4 day pass!), also very premature. Both spent months in the NICU. Our son was 2lbs. Our daughter was 4. Both times, we nearly lost me and the babies. During all of this, my husband was on the other side of the world. I won’t be getting pregnant again (at least, not if I have any say in it) because I feel an obligation to the children I already have. And I feel like we’re done. I have agonized about whether or not I should get my tubes tied or have my husband get fixed. I realize that a lot of this comes from dealing with my MiL, who had 6 DREAM pregnancies. She loved being pregnant. Couldn’t understand how anyone wouldn’t! So, the whole time I was on bedrest, she kept telling me about the “power of positivity” and how “if you just have enough faith and don’t let yourself think about what might happen, you’ll be great and can have as many kids as you want! That’s what I did!”

    Yeah. I know.

    Our Northern Utah (Cache Valley) ward has been really involved in helping, but I’ve gotten really mixed responses, everything from people asking me “Can you pop them out any faster?” or “why didn’t you get sterilized after the first one??” to “you aren’t stopping, are you?? But you only have two!” or (my favorite) “I can’t believe you’re done having kids. You’re too young to decide that. Why would you close yourself off to the blessings of motherhood??”

    (I’m 25)

    And when my sister was YW pres, a member of her bishopric told her young women that every faithful saint needed to have at least 4 kids, because we were commanded to MULTIPLY — and if you have less than 4, you aren’t actually multiplying (I guess anything less than a factor of 2 doesn’t count??). THAT was a fun mess to clean up after he left the room.

    So, this morning, I was talking with a friends mom about this post– she had all of her three kids by the time she was 23, and that was it. I asked her how she was certain that she was done, and she said, “The same way I knew when I needed to keep having kids. I always felt like someone was nagging me — the spiritual equivalent of a toddler pulling on you pants leg. But after the last one… there wasn’t anyone nagging me anymore.”

    I don’t care if you’re having 1 or 11 kids — I couldn’t argue with that principle.

    Not that I don’t think that some people stop before they’ve had everyone on their “guest list”, or that some people keep going long after the party should have been over, but, as with anything, I think that we have options about how many kids to have, or how to go about trying to have kids, how we cope with the children we expected (or were surprised by), or deal with our inability to have them. There be one arrangement that would be optimal for our happiness, or there may not — but the choice is still ours. I’ve watched my inlaws with their dozens of grandkids (among 6 kids) , and my parents with their five (among 4 kids), and my unmarried aunt (who had 12 biological neices and nephews, but who has collected over a hundred children who call her *Auntie*) — and I don’t believe that having joy and rejoicing in our posterity is in ANY way tied to how many children have our DNA.

    #43– THANK YOU for pointing out that Presidents Monson and Uchtdorf don’t have giant families. It harder to feel funny parking a Honda Civic between all the minivans at church when you realize that the prophet could fit his whole family in one.

    Comment by Meredith(MerHart) — January 2, 2009 @ 2:29 am

  55. Isn’t it interesting that people feel they have any business commenting on your family size? Our first was born four years after we married. Up until then we were told we weren’t being good mormons, etc. etc. This continued even after we had two! Then as we added to our family (I was thinking 4, dh thought 2) and had our 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th, people commented,”You know, you really don’t have to do this, you don’t have to populate the world all by yourselves.” Anyway, we’ve heard it all at different times. I wish I would have just said, “Why do you ask?” when people were nosy. Just put it back on them and see them squirm!

    Comment by wistfulblue — January 2, 2009 @ 2:31 am

  56. In response to the comment about overpopulation, this is a pretty common myth, which stems from third world countries. The problems range far beyond the simple “they have too many mouths to feed”.

    The fact is that on average, families are having less children then ever before, and that number is ever declining. In some countries, the government is actually *paying* people to have children because their population is so low is it not able to sustain itself anymore.

    I read a comment in an LDS book, Earth, In the Beginning by Eric Skousen, that we could fit the *entire* earth’s population in the state of Utah with more living space per square mile than in Tokoyo, Japan. This comment was made back in the 90s, so the numbers have changed since then, but it definitely puts things into perspective.

    As someone mentioned before me, if people in established countries learned to live a bit more simply, the Earth could handle millions more people with no problem at all. In my opinion, it’d be more wise to point the finger at the ones consuming so much, and not at the families who have a big family because they want to.

    Not to mention, if *everyone* adopted, we’d run out of kiddos pretty quickly! :P

    I personally do not care if someone has 2 kids or 12. As long as they are clothed, fed and loved…more power to them!

    Comment by sb — January 2, 2009 @ 2:41 am

  57. But after the last one… there wasn’t anyone nagging me anymore.”

    I don’t care if you’re having 1 or 11 kids — I couldn’t argue with that principle.

    I just want to say that I think this is an overgeneralization, though. Not everyone feels that ‘done’ feeling, and not everyone has a clear answer like that.

    I was certain that I wasn’t ready for #3, and obviously God thought differently. (I learned then that I don’t always know what is best. I am glad God gave her to us before I wasn’t able to have more.) And then, I was sure I wasn’t done after she was born (like in the hospital), and things are not looking good for getting rid of that nagging feeling in this life (I haven’t lost hope yet, but I am OLD as this process goes and if anything, my health is worse as of late).

    I also know others who have not lost that nagging feeling before becoming (by age or circumstance) unable to have more children. (Sister Beck actually talked about this — that this desire to have children won’t necessarily go away even if someone can’t have more — and that can be viewed as a good thing.)

    Soooo…anyway, I think this “you’ll just know when you are done” thing is one example of something that really *can* be and is true for some people, but won’t be true for everyone, and should not, imo, be presented or interpreted (or expected) as The Way Things Are or How You Will Just Know.

    Just like the ‘all you need to do is have more faith’ answer that won’t apply to everyone who can’t just easily get/stay/be pregnant. (That one hurts my heart. Sometimes people can’t have more babies because that is just their trial, not as a sign of a lack of faith. Seriously makes my heart hurt hearing that, and I’m sorry when anyone hears that. Ouch. Serious pourlemonjuiceonapapercut ouch.)

    (And just an afterthought on this….Birth control can be a blessing (we have choice, and choices can be a blessing) but it’s also a significant responsibility, imo — part of agency and accountability and learning by experience and all of that — and something that our forebears were not able to choose on, really. Personally, it all makes me shake in my boots. If there is anything I don’t want to mess up on, it’s this. But I just try to do my best with what I know and feel, and trust and hope that that is enough.)

    Comment by m&m — January 2, 2009 @ 3:30 am

  58. Oh. Long comment. Sorry. Late. Tired. Rambling….

    Comment by m&m — January 2, 2009 @ 3:31 am

  59. “Birth control can be a blessing (we have choice, and choices can be a blessing) but it’s also a significant responsibility, imo — part of agency and accountability and learning by experience and all of that — and something that our forebears were not able to choose on, really.” Yeah, our fore”mothers” just died, leaving their children motherless. Or, often, they ended up with horrific gynecological problems leaving them bedridden. It’s a cruel joke that us women have the capacity to have more children than our bodies (and/or ourselves) can handle. I kinow a couple instances where women (yeah, Mormon) had that extra child even though medical professionals suggested otherwise, and they died. Leaving behind motherless children. Not mentioned very often over the pulpit. I’m glad you stopped, m&m. Wonderful point.

    Comment by djinn — January 2, 2009 @ 5:26 am

  60. I am single, but even though I don’t have personal experience with this exact question, I can relate to the outrage you feel at people’s impertinence (i.e. “So when are you going to find a boyfriend/husband?”).

    I have recently started questioning whether I want to have children at all–at least biologically. I have always liked the idea of adoption, and I don’t feel the need to have children who look like me (although I know some people who do, it strikes me as ridiculous and slightly narcissistic). My mind is far from made up either way, but I’ve watched my sister go through 3 tough pregnancies in the last 8 years and I am not excited about putting my body, mind, spirit, or family through that. And frankly, I am not sure if I want kids at all. For the record, I come from a strong, close-knit family of 5 kids, with wonderful parents who managed to make time for each of us individually and never showed favoritism or made any of us feel like a burden.

    It’s not that I DON’T want to be a mom, I’m just not convinced that I DO want it. I am new to this questioning-of-gender-roles-within-the-context-of-the-church. I am prepared for the fact that my thoughts and feelings are likely to change with experience, age and different circumstances. But I am interested in people’s thoughts on a woman’s choosing not to have children even though she is presumably capable of doing so, particularly in a church that views motherhood as the highest position women can attain.

    I hope this isn’t a threadjack–I only meant to take the original discussion a step further.

    Comment by Michelle — January 2, 2009 @ 5:30 am

  61. Michelle, I can relate. To write my thoughts on this issue would be a massive post, but I’ll try to sum it up for now by saying that I’m also 1 of 5 kids, had a great childhood, but I was the oldest and have absolutely no illusions about what having kids is all about. I’m not sure I’ve ever wanted kids, which is something that I’ve hardly ever discussed with anybody, particularly within the Church. I’ve just always felt that IF I was going to have them, they would be adopted. There are other reasons for this, but I have absolutely no desire, need, or drive to have my own biological children.

    I have a huge respect for motherhood and I have the best mom in the world. Which is all the more reason for why I feel unprepared and no desire to have kids. I can force myself to do plenty of things that I don’t want to do, but I feel it’s wrong when it involves another human being, especially an innocent child.

    I’m now 30 and any motherly instinct I ever did have (which was never much) seems to be getting less with age, which is the opposite of most women, I think. It may change, but I realize that it most likely won’t, knowing me. I sort of hope it will and I sort of hope it won’t.

    Comment by TheFaithfulDissident — January 2, 2009 @ 7:17 am

  62. Surely, each person need not take some predefined role–there is room for personal difference.

    Comment by djinn — January 2, 2009 @ 7:18 am

  63. Not everybody is supposed to have a large family-which can be defined as anywhere from 3 kids to 13 kids depending on who you’re talking to. Heavenly Father knows that you (and your husband, together) know what’s best for you and your family. How do you know that your decision to not have more children isn’t personal revelation? Would He really expect you to have more than 3 children if it meant sacrificing your sanity? I don’t think so.

    Some couples can handle it. Others can’t. Take for example, the Duggar family in Arkansas. They’ve got 18 children now, and have no plans to stop. I’ve watched their show and this couple is the type of couple that can handle that many children and raise them without assistance. Michelle Duggar home schools all of the children too. My distinct impression of this family is how calm and happy each and every member of the family is. I say, more power to them!

    But me personally, I’m done with 1. Yes, 1. My son is an active-minded, active-bodied child who saps me of every bit of energy I have. I absolutely adore him and he gets every bit of goodness and love I can dish out when I’m with him. But there is no way I could handle a second child. I get frustrated at times as it is, and my child deserves to have the sanest mother he can. I was actually glad when I went back to work when he was 5 weeks old–because of the break I had from him I was a better mother when I was with him. He’s been a handful from day one. It’s all personal.

    Don’t let anybody tell you what’s best for you and your family. How many children to have is a very personal decision between you and your husband. It’s about prayer, pondering and personal revelation. But I think you know that already. If you’re done, no one should doubt that you know what’s best for you and your family.

    Comment by Ladybug — January 2, 2009 @ 10:01 am

  64. With the advent of having to use seatbelts and car seats, and the predominance of the mini-van; the norm for a large Mormon family is 5 kids. At least that is what I believe without any proof to back it up. My wife and I were married right after my mission and we waited until her graduation to have kids, she walked for her diploma 6 months along. My wife being the oldest (and only married) of 7 at the time used to get really pressuring letters from her mom about how we were denying God and trading our salvation away for cars and TV’s because we waited that three years. Otherwise we never had any pressure one way or the other about family size (I am the youngest of 2 – I broke the “mold” on the way out) from anyone else. (now that my in-laws have 17 gk with two more on the way, they have definitely calmed down)

    We felt we were done at number four but after a while I had a really nice experience where I got the feeling there was one more, and that it would be a boy. I even “heard” his name and when I finally broached the subject with my wife about one more, she confirmed that she too had felt the same thing and that it would be a boy. When I shared the name, she hadn’t heard it before but immediately said Yes, that is his name. Less than a year later we had our boy. Then we knew we were done and both were “fixed”, so to speak. So now we are raising our brood of 5 (4B & 1G) ages 15 through 6 and while it is chaotic (i.e. house is always a disaster), it is also great in the big picture.

    Anyways, what I was trying to say is that everyone should have the number of kids that is appropriate for them, be that none or 18, or somewhere in-between. No one else knows you are your family as well as you do, so they cannot possibly know how many kids you should have. For my wife and I that ended up being 5, but that is just us. And BTW, my wife’s name is Lisa, so that should count for something here 

    Comment by TStevens — January 2, 2009 @ 11:30 am

  65. It blows my mind that anyone would have the audacity to make such a rude and personal comment to another person- regarding when or how many children is appropriate. A lesson on basic manners would be in order.

    It’s an intensely personal decision and should be treated as such. Since we’re discussing it, my personal opinion is that people should only have the number of children they would like to have- it’s a huge bonus if they also base their decision on their ability to provide for them too. I say this because we were miserably poor when I was a child and there is nothing romantic or laudable about not having food, heat or clothing- so I do take exception to advice that authorities give that tells young people not to wait until they have enough money. Each couple must do as their conscience dictates.

    Comment by Kimberly — January 2, 2009 @ 12:13 pm

  66. We used to get asked this all the time, even after we had two kids. Maybe it’s an age thing though? Because my wife doesn’t get asked any more. Or maybe people got tired of me answering their rude question with a rude answer

    Comment by jjohnsen — January 2, 2009 @ 1:47 pm

  67. We settled on 3 kids after determining that any more than 5 people was too many for a fireteam combat element, which is the essential building block of an effective infantry. (I think that’s in the Proclamation on the Family somewhere.)

    Comment by gst — January 2, 2009 @ 2:17 pm

  68. I like to read how many kids the new mission and temple presidents have when published in the Church News. They are averaging just under 5 lately.

    Comment by TStevens — January 2, 2009 @ 3:03 pm

  69. apparently some of you haven’t read Thomas L Friedman’s Hot, Flat, and Crowded.

    Comment by mfranti — January 2, 2009 @ 3:28 pm

  70. Perhaps I missed it, but I’m surprised there’s not more discussion here on the “spirits waiting for bodies” doctrine. When I was growing up in the ’70s, it was commonly understood as Mormons that our mission (as women, moreso than “families”, as the emphasis is now) was to house as many tabernacles as possible and bring them to their second estate (translation: have as many kids as we could).

    I’m forty, but in my lifetime, I have heard talks from the General Conference about the following:

    *Birth control and abortion are practically coterminous and for some reason, Heavenly Father will be really mad when he finds out you purposely prevented children from entering your wombs
    *Having one “trophy child” rather than–uh, I dunno, two? (yes, the “trophy child” phrase is a direct quote from a GC in the early 2000s or late 1990s) is displeasing to the Lord, selfish, and irresponsible
    *Using birth control is a violation of temple covenants (below is the exact quotation, because it truly sounds unbelievable)>

    At the April 1995 General Conference, Elder J. Ballard Washburn stated:

    “Thus we see that in marriage, a husband and wife enter into an order of the priesthood called the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. This covenant includes a willingness to have children and to teach them the gospel. Many problems of the world today are brought about when parents do not accept the responsibilities of this covenant. It is contradictory to this covenant to prevent the birth of children if the parents are in good health.

    Thirty-five years ago when I first started practicing medicine, it was a rare thing for a married woman to seek advice about how she could keep from having babies. When I finished practicing medicine, it was a rare thing, except for some faithful Latter-day Saint women, for a married woman to want to have more than one or two children, and some did not want any children. We in the Church must not be caught up in the false doctrines of the world that would cause us to break sacred temple covenants.“

    Comment by Prefer not to leave a name — January 2, 2009 @ 3:56 pm

  71. Oops, of course I posted before I finished the complete thought.

    Anyway, I agree it’s nobody’s business how many kids an LDS family has by choice or accident, be it none, five, eighteen, or whatever. The man quoted above was giving his opinion: in General Conference, yes, but his opinion. When we ask these questions about how our fellow Mormons could possibly think or believe x, y, or z, we should always scour the source (General Conference) for hints. Many members believe that they should pray and align themselves with the words of general authorities, even if their counsel is damaging, nonsensical, condemnatory, or foolish.

    Here’s my motto: If I agree with it, and if it makes sense to me, it’s doctrine. If I don’t like the idea, don’t agree, and it seems stupid, it’s not doctrine.

    Comment by Prefer not to leave a name — January 2, 2009 @ 4:00 pm

  72. Yes . . . Is it just me, or does it seem awfully conveniant to anyone else that it’s always General Authorities (who are by definition men) who are spreading the “have lots of kids” message, while at the same time spreading the “women are to stay home and take care of their babies and men are to work outside the home and bring in the bacon” message - therefore letting themselves off the hook quite nicely from having to take much more than fiscal responsibility for the very children that are, after all, so terribly important to our Heavenly Father?
    .

    Comment by Quimby — January 2, 2009 @ 4:03 pm

  73. Nobody ever asks me and DH when we’re going to have kids, because of our long-distance situation. We’ll be living together before the end of this year, and that’s when the pressure may come, if it does. I’ve always told him that if people ask when we’re going to have a kid, I’d love to say “Oh, I think about 38 weeks after one of DH’s sperm fertilizes one of my ova.”

    Oh snap! :)

    Comment by xenologue — January 2, 2009 @ 4:14 pm

  74. #70, Prefer: I was waiting for that, actually. I wasn’t sure if it had been explicitly spoken of in that way — or that recently –at church.

    Thank you for that.

    Comment by LisaJ — January 2, 2009 @ 4:46 pm

  75. #10 We’ve been married for 8 years, no kids yet. (Lots of grad school, interspersed with periods of poverty, poor health, and other instability.) Finally we’re stable and are looking to start the family “soon.”

    In the meantime, when people start to get nosy about why we don’t have kids, I let slip that we’re having “fertility” problems and that shuts them up in a jiffy.

    I don’t point out that our fertility problems are deliberate and reversible, but hey, nosy people get what they deserve. :) Not that I wish to mock anyone who actually does have fertility problems, of course.

    Comment by Bro. Jones — January 2, 2009 @ 7:34 pm

  76. […] I don’t know if I’m too much of a fan of traditional values, but that’s also not what this post is about. What’s more fascinating is how different ways of growing up can inspire such different ideas about what is desirable. We can’t really find out what we “ought” to do from what we “are,” but at the same time, something about who we are and how we grow up actually does inform what we feel we should do with our lives. And isn’t it so beautifully depressing how this can mess with people’s heads? […]

    Pingback by Family Focused « Irresistible (Dis)Grace — January 3, 2009 @ 12:50 am

  77. As the mother of five, I consider three to be the new five. It is your life, you know what is best for your family. Besides you know my viewpoint. Wait a few years. If you want more you can always adopt. The world is FULL of children waiting for a family.

    Comment by JA Benson — January 3, 2009 @ 1:07 am

  78. #43 - According to his biography on lds.org, President Monson has 3 children, not 2. [Not a huge difference, I realize, but just wanted to set the record straight.]

    Comment by Melanie2 — January 3, 2009 @ 2:54 am

  79. 78 - thanks for the clarification. I should have double checked first.

    Comment by Patti — January 3, 2009 @ 12:37 pm

  80. In the meantime, when people start to get nosy about why we don’t have kids, I let slip that we’re having “fertility” problems and that shuts them up in a jiffy.

    I don’t point out that our fertility problems are deliberate and reversible, but hey, nosy people get what they deserve. Not that I wish to mock anyone who actually does have fertility problems, of course

    This comment make me think about something related. During a recent discussion with my 15-year old daughter, I found out that she and many of the other YW were under the false impression that every young, married LDS couple in our ward was having “fertility” issues, since they don’t have children yet, most have been married 5+ years. This is just not true at all. For us, it was an opportunity for a good discussion. But it made me think, hmmmm……

    Comment by twinmomnc — January 3, 2009 @ 1:30 pm

  81. #15 - Natalie (and others who may be fearful about the vagina’s capacity to expand during birth) (sorry to go OT):

    I would suggest that you read “Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth” by Ina May Gaskin. She has a wonderful chapter in there about the anatomy and function of the vagina. The vagina is lined with folds of skin that unfold and stretch during childbirth. Underneath the skin, the vaginal walls are made of muscle, which also stretches. In other words, vaginas are designed to stretch. Also, during birth the blood flow to the vaginal skin and muscle increases, which improves its stretching ability.

    I remember having those “freak out” discussions with BYU roommates, comparing the size of tampons to the rumors we had heard about size of an erect penis. What none of us knew is that just as a penis has a dramatic ability to expand during arousal, a vagina has a dramatic ability to expand during arousal. Some of those same vaginal expansion mechanisms can come into play during childbirth.

    For me, gaining knowledge about how our bodies really function has been a great way of dispelling fear on this topic.

    Comment by Katie J — January 3, 2009 @ 1:43 pm

  82. re: 69

    So M, you don’t believe population growth is desirable or sustainable?

    Comment by Derek — January 3, 2009 @ 2:27 pm

  83. It’s interesting to read everyone’s different experiences. I grew up the oldest of five with my brother 13 months younger than me, and my next sister coming along 18 months after him. We were born in the late, late seventies, early eighties and my parents were suspicious of using birth control. After my sister was born one of the ladies in my parents ward, a few years older than my mother, who ended up having seven children herself, told my mom, “I think, the Lord would rather you used birth control, than for you to end up in the nut house.” My next sister was born five years later.
    Mostly due to the closeness I felt with my siblings, I always wanted to have small spaces between my children. My first two are 17 months apart, with the next two being 20 months, than 15 months, I’m pregnant now and the gap will be 23 months. My oldest is five, almost six. Mostly the comment I get is, “Wow, you’ve got your hands full.” The comment my husband got at work when we were expecting our fourth was, “The only form of birth control you know is getting your wife pregnant.” Everytime I have a baby my grandma says, “I hope you’ll wait awhile before you have anymore.” I just smile.
    I’m a very laid back person, so dealing with a lot of kids doesn’t bother me (most days), but I certainly understand that my life is defianetly not for everyone.

    Comment by JJ — January 3, 2009 @ 7:44 pm

  84. #78, Melanie2:

    According to his biography on lds.org, President Monson has 3 children, not 2. [Not a huge difference, I realize, but just wanted to set the record straight.]

    ahahaha, according to my experience, two is WAY different than three :D

    Comment by LisaJ — January 3, 2009 @ 8:59 pm

  85. I live in California, land of “you’re weird and silly if you think three is enough.

    Um… as a lifetime California resident, this sounds completely untrue (in the many different areas I’ve lived in).

    I know many, many, many LDS families with three children (in fact that seems to be the “normal” number). This is in families where the children are now parents themselves as well as families with babies. In fact, I know a family that is expecting their fourth and I remember being a bit surprised with this.

    Comment by Joanna — January 3, 2009 @ 9:43 pm

  86. #85, Joanna: I’m lifetime California resident as well. Granted I’ve only been in two or three stakes, but in my experience this has been the case.

    Three is hardly enough where I live.

    See #70 for references to past General Conferences for official reasons.

    At the April 1995 General Conference, Elder J. Ballard Washburn stated:

    “Thus we see that in marriage, a husband and wife enter into an order of the priesthood called the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. This covenant includes a willingness to have children and to teach them the gospel. Many problems of the world today are brought about when parents do not accept the responsibilities of this covenant. It is contradictory to this covenant to prevent the birth of children if the parents are in good health.

    Thirty-five years ago when I first started practicing medicine, it was a rare thing for a married woman to seek advice about how she could keep from having babies. When I finished practicing medicine, it was a rare thing, except for some faithful Latter-day Saint women, for a married woman to want to have more than one or two children, and some did not want any children. We in the Church must not be caught up in the false doctrines of the world that would cause us to break sacred temple covenants.“

    Where in California do you live/have you lived, out of curiosity? (northern/southern?)

    Comment by LisaJ — January 3, 2009 @ 9:54 pm

  87. Where I live in So. Cal. 3 is the new 6. At least according to my mormon friends. Most of us have 3, a few have more and a few have less. But we really respect each other. It isn’t our business how many baby’s someone has.

    But either way, we have decided that 3 is the new 6. So in my world you have 6.

    Also you have “multiplied” 2 x 1.5=3

    BTW, I have 3 and we are most likely done (barring any surprises!)

    Comment by Sheridan — January 3, 2009 @ 9:57 pm

  88. Where in California do you live/have you lived, out of curiosity? (northern/southern?)

    Both. I grew up in southern California (and went to school there, so I still have many friends all over the Los Angeles, Orange County, San Bernardino areas). I’m currently in northern California and have been in quite a few wards in the area.

    Comment by Joanna — January 3, 2009 @ 10:57 pm

  89. Joanna: Which part of Northern Cali, if you don’t mind my asking. Sacramento area, closer to Eureka, San Francisco…?

    I’m in the Sac “area”

    Comment by LisaJ — January 3, 2009 @ 11:01 pm

  90. Here here!

    Lisa my dear, you are sooooo not alone! I have no doubt many women in the church share your same anxiety, including myself. Currently I have two small children, and I have decided to have one more a few years down the road and then we will call it quits. Three is the magic number for me. I have very specific plans for after the third is school age. I get mixed reactions from people (in the church of course) if I tell them this, even those who I would have thought would be encouraging. But, suddenly, it’s cool, I don’t care. I know what is going to work for me and my family. Course it helps that my husband stands by my side quick to support me like the rock of awesomeness that he is. But seriously, I don’t know what has happened with me in the past year or two, but I feel like I have really come into my own, and I just don’t care so much what others think. I guess the buck stops here now. I think a big part of that has come from being able to read and relate to awesome posts like this one and on other similar sites. So thanks. To all of you who take the time to write about these things, I am grateful. I doubt I am alone in that either.

    Comment by J.G. — January 3, 2009 @ 11:26 pm

  91. No one in my current ward gives us any trouble for going to Church with just Rachel.

    But I have been places where people have been rather critical to see us with just two kids, about eleven years apart, me an attorney, my wife a CRNA.

    Used to be if you got in my face about it, you would get the full story of the three we buried and the three additional miscarriages we went through. My wife felt that was too harsh to unload on people for their rudeness. So now someone has to push harder before I respond. Doesn’t happen a second time though.

    I’ve had two friends who almost died trying to correct fertility issues, both because of pressure they felt. Last I knew, both were childless.

    I think we owe each other more kindness.

    Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — January 3, 2009 @ 11:45 pm

  92. How many children a person has is between her and God. That’s all there is to it.

    Comment by HK Bialik — January 4, 2009 @ 12:25 am

  93. #91, Stephen: That reminds me of a comment my ex-roomie made about my step-SIL and her husband about seven years ago. They had decided to get a truck as opposed to a van (or other “family friendly” vehicle) and my roomie saw it as testament to their lack of faithfulness regarding the prophet’s counsel about having a family ASAP. After all, they’d been married for a few years. Now they have three kids.

    It’s just so incredibly judgmental. We’ve no right to assume someone’s faith or willingness to do what is “right” based on so little information.

    Comment by LisaJ — January 4, 2009 @ 12:32 am

  94. I was aked in the London Temple why , after 2 years of marriage I had no children . I responded - I did but she died.

    the sister who had asked had asked was led away crying and had to be comforted, I was advised that I should not have been so brutal. Well, stick your nose in my reproductive business and you have to take it as i see it.

    It’s nearly 30 years ago but it’s stll clear in the memory

    Comment by christine — January 4, 2009 @ 11:14 am

  95. Three kids aren’t enough? I have never heard of anything like this. My wife and I are planning on three or so. Besides, many General Authorities have smaller families, like Elder Haight who had only two children.

    Comment by Jon — January 4, 2009 @ 5:09 pm

  96. Hi Lisa J - I live in a big ward in California. Three is the standard number for ourselves and most other families here. Only a few have more.

    Comment by Palm Springs Kid — January 4, 2009 @ 8:43 pm

  97. I always thought I’d have four. I currently have three, and have thought that maybe i’m done.

    My youngest is 20 months now, and he’s been such a sweet easy baby, that I’m kind of thinking 5 might be good. (Although two more pregnancies might be more than I can handle)

    I figure I’ll go with one at a time (hopefully) until I feel like my family is complete.

    I don’t believe that Heavenly Father would be pleased that a woman was harming herself physically or emotionally just to have as many kids as possible. After my first, my doctor recommended I wait at least 18 months before getting pregnant again to let my body heal.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 5, 2009 @ 12:33 am

  98. I have seven kids. I’ve gotten comments such as “don’t you know about birth control,” and my response is “if I didn’t I would have seventeen kids.” And then I’ll sometimes ask, “which one of my kids doesn’t deserve to live?”

    I have seven kids because the Lord wanted me to have seven kids.

    I have a daughter who just had her second child. If she has more great, if she doesn’t then that’s great too. That’s between her, her husband and the Lord and none of my or anyone else’s business.

    Asking people if they’re going to have more kids, or if they’re going to have kids at all, or suggesting that they have too many kids, is just plain rude and insensitive. Why not ask how many times they have sex in a week or how much money they have in the bank?

    Comment by Anna — January 5, 2009 @ 7:07 am

  99. Allegator said, “I don’t believe that Heavenly Father would be pleased that a woman was harming herself physically or emotionally just to have as many kids as possible. After my first, my doctor recommended I wait at least 18 months before getting pregnant again to let my body heal.”

    Here’s my problem: Why was Heavenly Father supposedly pleased all those decades and centuries before when there was little or no (access to) safe birth control, when the prophets as late as the early ’90s declared birth control to be wrong/covenant-breaking, etc.? Why is it only in the late 20th century/early 21st century that suddenly he isn’t “pleased that a woman (is) harming herself physically and emotionally just to have as many kids as possible”?

    Comment by Prefer not to leave a name — January 5, 2009 @ 7:42 am

  100. if you haven’t read the PEW survey on Religious life that was done last year. (it was the biggest most comprehensive study on religion in America ever done) I might ask what you all think of the parts that clearly suggest within statistical margin that the more children one has the more religious a person is. I understand religiosity doesn’t= richeousness, however it showed statistics like increased meeting attendance, belief in God, and other similar indicators.

    Comment by littlet — January 5, 2009 @ 12:15 pm

  101. In my view you have one more child then the national average. The average LDS family in North Texas where I live has 3-5 So I say you probably fall in the average for the LDS church. Tongue in Cheek… You also replenished (2 kids replaced yourself and your husband) and then multiplied (3rd)

    As far as peoples comments about it. I get asked all the time by people inside and outside the church if we are having any more. We have 5 all boys so the common question is are you trying for the girl? I am pretty sure that 95% of the time this is just idle chit-chat and its probably true for your case as well

    Comment by bbell — January 5, 2009 @ 3:50 pm

  102. I would just like to say here that you just can’t make some people happy. There will always be someone who wonders why you don’t have more kids. There will always be someone who thinks you have too many. These are the same people who say to you when you’re single, “Why aren’t you married yet?” When you’re engaged, they say, “Do you really think he’s good enough for you?” When you’re childless, they say, “When are you going to have kids?” When you have 10 kids, they say, “Haven’t you ever heard of birth control?” These are the same idiots who say to me, the youngest in a family of 8, “Were you a mistake?” when my parents struggled with infertility fior five years, and my mom almost died having me.

    Why can’t people just mind their own business?

    But my point is, it’s the same people, over and over and over again. They just can’t live without the gossip. My advice to Lisa is to just ignore them. It’s hard — people have really, REALLY offended me at times and I have a hard time not holding a grudge. But I’ve just found that it’s not worth it. It’s the same idiots every time, asking you these embarrassing and personal questions. Tune them out, avoid talking to them, ask to have them moved off your visiting teaching list. Whatever it takes.

    Comment by calico1cat — January 5, 2009 @ 8:20 pm

  103. Some LDS doctrines have changed and adjusted over the years to better reflect society. Take polygamy or the priesthood ban for black men, for example. If those changes/modifications were revealed from God, than wouldn’t it make sense that additional changes would also be revealed?

    What no one wants to discuss is that raising children in this (American) society is expensive. Depending on what a parent provides for them, children can be very expensive throughout their lifetimes.

    Society isn’t based on small farms in rural Utah any longer. Even if families make all their own clothes and grow all their own food, simple things like taxes or book fees can add up.

    Even tuition at BYU or BYU Idaho is very expensive and increasing each year.

    Obviously not everyone has to attend college, but I wonder if I will be able to afford college, even for my two children. And that is with loans, both for them and me.

    That’s why I strongly support each family making this decision personally and prayerfully.

    It should be between the family and God.

    I am the oldest daughter of a large family. We really struggled to get by when I was growing up - both in financial terms and emotionally. We never went hungry, but we went without a great deal. I did a lot of the work for my Mom for my younger siblings. I didn’t get to choose that. Not all large families are that way. I’m not suggesting that all large families are that way.

    It’s easy to sit in ivory towers, perhaps older in life, in certain areas in the U.S. and make pronouncements that may or may not speak for God. It’s quite another to live on the ground, in this economy, trying to feed and care for 4 under five years when your dh is still in grad school. It’s also easy to look around the pews and make unfounded judgements on the size of other ward members’ families.

    Raising a child is so much more than just a competition to see who can have more, who can get by with less.

    Comment by anon for this one — January 6, 2009 @ 1:12 pm

  104. I think that Heavenly Father wants us to have as many children as we can raise well (that doesn’t mean we give them all ipods). For some people, none, or one, might be all they can have and raise well. For others, maybe they would thrive with a dozen children.

    “Here’s my problem: Why was Heavenly Father supposedly pleased all those decades and centuries before when there was little or no (access to) safe birth control, when the prophets as late as the early ’90s declared birth control to be wrong/covenant-breaking, etc.?”

    I don’t know. I have a hard time imagining he was, but life was different then, and if a woman died in childbirth for a child that she wanted to bring into the world, I can’t say much about it can I.

    My opinion really only works for myself. Thank you for reminding me of that.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 6, 2009 @ 1:53 pm

  105. My favorite response to “Why don’t you have any/more kids?” is “We don’t like sex.”

    Comment by estudiante — January 9, 2009 @ 12:00 am

  106. For as long as I can remember, I’ve been pretty adamant that I don’t want any kids ever and I’m fairly positive that I was born without any maternal instincts or the ability to develop them. I used to think it was absolutely hilarious to pull off my baby doll’s head (I had one doll that was battery-operated and the batteries went into her neck, so you removed the head to replace the batteries and I thought it was the funniest thing I’d ever seen). I also know that given my absolute lack of patience, my inability to interact w/ little kids, and my extremely low tolerance of things that are irritating to me (like diapers, crying in public, toys that make noises, etc) that I would hands-down be the WORST mother any poor child ever had to deal with. I also have never been able to get over how fundamentally creepy I find pregnancy–yes, I know that it’s a miracle and it’s beautiful and it’s magical and that’s just great for anyone who can do it, but I just haven’t ever been able to wrap my head around the fact that there would be another human being living inside of me. There’s a PERSON inside my body?! Too creepy for me to handle.

    Yet, people in church have always insisted that I am wrong on these things. I hear all the time that I’m too young to know (I’m 25), that because I don’t want kids at all that is a sign that I should have them because God is testing me and my obedience with my lack of desire for kids, that once I find a man that I truly love I’ll want to fill my womb with all sorts of his babies (although I’m getting married in May and have been in love w/ my fiance for 3 years now and have yet to feel the desire to fill my womb with his babies), and all sorts of other nonsense. I’m told I’m very selfish for not wanting to have kids, but I simply point out that I think it’s more selfish to have children because I think it’s what I’m “supposed” to do rather than because I truly want a child in my life.

    I was so upset over this whole thing a few years ago that I went and talked w/ my bishop, crying because I couldn’t make myself want a kid or have any motherly desire no matter how hard I prayed or tried. I was worried that if I chose not to have children because I wasn’t sure I was right for motherhood that that would mean I was somehow sinning terribly. My bishop told me very lovingly that some women are meant to be mothers but not every woman is meant to be a mother. He compared it to kicking a soccer ball into the goal–there is one technique that the coach teaches all the players that works great. However, that’s not the ONLY way to get the ball into the goal and some players will figure out a different way. The goal was Heaven, the coach’s method of kicking the ball was motherhood, and I was one of the players who figured out a different way. He told me that Heavenly Father’s plan for me doesn’t necessarily mean that I have to have kids and that it was a decision that my spouse, me, and Heavenly Father would reach someday and that I didn’t need to worry.

    And since then, I’ve felt at peace w/ my decision not to have kids (and my fiance is totally fine w/o kids, as well) and whenever someone asks me about it, I tell them that God and I had a chat and He’s got something else for me to do. Because God knows that if I had a baby, I’d get frustrated with it and end up doing something like putting it in a drawer or something. So, really, God knows best and there’s definitely a reason I don’t have any motherly instincts!

    Comment by mellancollyeyes — January 9, 2009 @ 3:27 am

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