Misanthropy as an Analogue to Misogyny

By: Guest - January 8, 2009

By Apogee

For several years I have tracked in earnest the postings on this blog. I have found them to be insightful and refreshing. It seems that this is one of the very few settings where one can discuss issues regarding sex and sexuality in both an honest and unapologetic manner. I don’t think I fit the mold of the typical blogger on this site. I represent patriarchy, a father of multiple children in an LDS home. I make a lot of money, and my wife stays at home and tends the children. I could be Mark. She could be Molly.

Shortly before celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary, I returned from a long absence from the home for military duty. Through a series of conversations my wife told me that she resented the last 20 years of having to put up with having sex two or three times a week. We have had many discussions about our sexual relationship, many of them punctuated by tears, but it seemed that an accord was always reached that we both accepted. She now advised me that that was no longer the case, and had never been the case.

I told her that our sexual frequency met my needs, but was willing to compromise. She told me that her preference would be to have sex once every two weeks, but might be willing to compromise to once a week. When we had this conversation we were in the bedroom, looking out the window at three of our small children playing in the backyard. She knew that I considered this issue to be fundamental to our marriage– lack of resolution was deeply hurtful, and could lead to divorce.  So when I suggested perhaps once every four days, she looked at me and, without blinking, said “you’d be willing to wreck their lives over three days?”, referring to the children. I held my tongue, but felt like saying, “right back at you.”

In the same conversation she told me that she felt that it was a sign of my spiritual weakness that I was unwilling to accept her proposal. In her view, my desire for more frequency than she proposed was a weakness of the flesh that, like other obstacles in this life, needed to be overcome.

This is when I began to question my spirituality.  In a few short minutes my wife had converted me into a spiritually depraved sexual predator.

Yet I wondered whether her estimation of my character was correct.

This week I finally opened up to two very close friends about the pain I was feeling over this issue. I was shocked at the results.  Both of these friends had sat on high councils; one had been a bishop. Not only did they lack the wherewithal to give me any advice, but their immediate reaction was, “Oh, you’re in the same boat I’m in.”  They then spooled out story after story of men who suffered in silence because their wife just said no. One man, sitting in a church court for adultery, was offered a plea bargain: go back to his wife, and he would only be disfellowshipped. After 10 minutes straight of racking sobs, the man said, “Excommunicate me. I will never, ever, go back to her.”

Whence such venom?  Such distrust?  Yes, this man had strayed, but, my God, was the Scylla truly worse than the Charybdis?  In my quest for advice, I had read a number of chapters from books while freeloading at the local Border’s.  A drumbeat theme is that wives need affection and men need sex.  There are 1000 ways that I have tried to communicate this to my wife, yet ultimately it comes back to an assault on my character. My conversations with my friends yielded more than schadenfreude. I was able to purchase back my dignity.  Now I will move forward. Whether it is with her without her, I do not know.

Irrespective of my own particular circumstances, the question arises why the wives that were the subject of our conversations are willing to risk losing their husbands over this issue. If I knew that failure to do the laundry, being a slob, or not making enough money would be grounds and motive enough for my wife to leave me, I would likely improve my conduct. Yet women feel that their exercise of autonomy within marriage is so important that they would risk the marriage being broken rather than understand and acquiesce to the basic needs of the husband.

One of my friends (who, by the way, is brilliant) made the sociological insight that perhaps the increase in divorce in the last 50 years is a direct result of feminine self-awareness and the possibility that the willingness to say “no” has exponentially multiplied. This is true even in the relatively patriarchal setting of the LDS church. In fact, disproportionate self-consciousness over the church’s patriarchy, and the self-deprecating nature of many church leaders regarding the inferiority of the male gender (”I tried over and over again, but it takes my wife to finally get it right,” etc), tend to exacerbate the problem.  There is abundant counsel in the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 7) regarding marriage, and, indeed, the advice that Paul gives is rather forthright.  Never say no.  Period. Never demand, never refuse.  Ask politely, humbly, and the other should say yes.  For whatever reason, this Scripture has never been quoted in any general conference or General Relief Society meeting.

This simple teaching could save marriages, both in and outside the Church.   Failing to follow this teaching, on the other hand, yields nothing less than what the secular defines as mental abuse.  On the ecclesiastical end, it constitutes a very grave sin, one that the refuser will be required to account for at the Judgment.   Any broken marriages arising from such disobedience will yield harsh judgment for both parties.  In short, a woman who refuses a polite request for sex does so at her grave peril.

I’m not coming to this discussion as a beer swilling biker who wants to “get some.” I represent many, many men who don’t understand why their wives have turned on them. Moreover, we are starting to realize the Truth. If good Mormon husbands merit such treatment, then it is time for them to reevaluate whether it is worthwhile being good, being Mormon, or being husbands.

Apogee

425 Comments

  1. Apogee, I was this wife, and honestly I didn’t understand why my husband wanted sex so much. It seemed a burden to me, until I realized (and read) Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands, by Dr. Laura. I bawled when I realized I was denying my husband the intimacy that he needs in the marriage. I was focusing on me and only me and what I wanted or didn’t want.

    There is a part in the book where I understood what I was doing to him. Sex to men equals the same thing that women get when they vent, or talk, or need emotional support from their husbands. It is the way a man connects and to realize, to really understand how much I was stripping my husband of what he needed emotionally was devastating. How did I come to this place? Why would I do such a thing to another human being? My answer, I heard it all my life. In some shape, way or form, I was getting and seeing the way I should treat my husband. I’m not blaming, they did what they knew, and now I know better and I will do better.

    This is going to be one hell of a discussion!!

    Comment by Sunshine — January 8, 2009 @ 10:32 pm

  2. Thanks for your honesty. To me, it sounds like you two really need some outside help to see your way clear to a compromise on this issue. While your frequency timetable does not sound unreasonable to me, my thoughts have absolutely nothing to do with it. Only your wife can say how much is too much (of course, you are the only one who can say how much is not enough). What if you politely asked four times a day, would you feel that your wife would ‘refuse at her peril’? Once a day? While I agree that both partners should do what they can to support and satisfy the other (in all areas of life), you can see how different people could reasonably disagree about limits on this. If this really is the only issue the two of you are having, some professional mediation could work wonders in figuring out how to creatively meet both of your needs. If there are other clashes or control issues, professional counseling probably wouldn’t hurt either.

    Comment by Markie — January 8, 2009 @ 10:36 pm

  3. Thank you for you honesty and candor. You leave no doubt as to the level of your personal pain, introspection, and isolation. Amazing how the heat of passion and the cold of rejection are often hand in hand.

    … and why don’t we hear those scriptures during Conference? Excellent point.

    Again, thank you for bringing this to FMH.

    Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 8, 2009 @ 10:36 pm

  4. Wow. I’m not even sure what to say. Women should never say no? What about all the reasons women do say no? They are exhausted, they are sick, they don’t feel loved, simply used for sexual purposes without their needs taken into consideration? I know with my ex I got tired of feeling I had to or it meant I didn’t love him. That was stupid to me - of course I loved him but really why did it always have to 11 or 12 when I was just beat? I was the one who had to get up at 5:30 and by then I really just wanted to sleep. We have to feel loved before we have sex. Men feel loved during sex. I get that. He didn’t.
    My current husband gets this. He knows if he wants some he doesn’t get me roses or dinner - he does the dishes so I can read. He vaccumms on the days he gets off early so I come home to a neat house. He never fails to tell me I am beautiful - and more importantly - Mean it. Yes, sex is important, I know this. But our needs are not to be cast aside either. I am perfectly willing to compromise with my husband as his sexual frequency needs are greater than mine. I would like once a week, he would like every day. It usually works out to be 2 or 3 times a week. It is never scheduled - sometimes it is much less, sometimes more. But I never feel used or pressured and I don’t believe he feels neglected. I believe it is all about talking about it. About tone, about honesty, about finding out each others needs and adressing them equally before coming to an understanding. No one should feel hurt by sex or the lack thereof. Sex should never be used as a club or ultimatum. And conversation with open minds and loving hearts is the key.

    Sorry so long

    Comment by Samantha — January 8, 2009 @ 10:37 pm

  5. After reading this, I have so many thoughts. Normally I wouldn’t comment on something as sensitive and potentially provocative as this until 60 or so comments have been made… but I just wanted to get in here before the dam burst…

    I read this aloud to my husband and his first reaction was: “Bonds that make us free. Terry Warner.”

    I think that’s a good suggestion.

    Apogee. I am a woman and a wife, not a husband. But I can sympathise with you. Want to know why? Because women actually need sex too. contrary to what has been written in a lot of self-help/marriage books, women naturally have a sex drive. It varies at different times of life, but it’s there, it’s important, it’s a need for us I think just as much as it is a need for husbands. In different ways, I guess… the focus might sometimes be different, and the drives might not match very often, but it’s there. If my husband cut me off, I’d feel betrayed, horrible, i’d feel dirty for wanting it when he didn’t (that might be my own issues speaking there), I’d feel forlorn and unloved.

    So I am very sorry. Reading your post, it’s not to me so much the frequency factor (Dh and I don’t have sex every 4 days lately… it’s probably more like once a week and believe me, I don’t ever say no because it’s something I enjoy and need just as much as he does) it’s more the attitude you’ve been met with. She tolerates sex. She’s rejecting you in a way, by saying that she merely tolerates it, and if it were up to her it wouldn’t be a part of your relationship.

    That to me bespeaks a real problem… not something to chastise her about, but something to look at a little more deeply. Obviously she has issues about sex. There could be lots of factors: emotional trauma, the way she was taught about it, maybe even things that have happened between you that she hasn’t said anything about (this is so often the case with me when I’m feeling less romantic than usual) or perhaps physical factors such as lack of sleep, and hormonal things.

    Like I said, it’s obviously a problem, and I’m very sorry you’re feeling so miserable.

    On the other hand, it sounds to me also like you’ve got some interesting ideas about sex, too.

    The first one I already mentioned: the idea that for women it’s a need for companionship and men it’s a need for physical gratification. Sex should be all about mutual companionship and mutual gratification. Men need companionship too. Women need gratification, too.

    The other is that sort of “keeping tabs” mentality that I get from your post. Why count days? I guess if she’s counting days, it’s hard for you not to. But if I as a wife knew I was supposed to have sex “every four days” or even “every week” or “every two weeks” I’d start feeling pretty unromantic about it pretty fast. It’d be like doing laundry: What was it I forgot to do today? Folded the clothes. Check. Cleaned the dinner dishes, check. Picked up the kids from dance. Oh that’s right! I forgot, I was supposed to have sex.

    Not very romantic.

    Anyway, I don’t want to seem harsh or uncaring. But I would like to say that I think there must be a lot more behind it and that you guys both need some help… get thyself to a marriage counselor. :) Don’t give up, yet… you sound really bitter, and frustrated… don’t do anything rash. And make sure you don’t quote those scriptures to your wife :) Maybe give her chocolates instead.

    (not that chocolates solve marriage problems. But you get what I’m saying, right? She’s obviously struggling, and so are you, and you love each other, and so you can help each other, perhaps with the help of a professional third party.)

    Comment by sare — January 8, 2009 @ 10:45 pm

  6. Women should never say no?

    before this thread gets jacked too much over this one question, i want to say that this post and the thoughts behind it are about so much more than a woman should never say no.

    i knew when i posted this it might turn into a debate about men asserting their power/authority via scripture or tradition but if we women can truly admit the amount of power we have below our belly buttons, we might fully understand how difficult this is from the OP’s pov

    thanks.

    Comment by mfranti — January 8, 2009 @ 10:45 pm

  7. I’m sorry that came out more combatative than I intended. But I was one of those women whose (ex)husband use sex as punishment - you didn’t clean just right so now you owe me oral sex etc. Or demanded it when he was angry which left me feeling completely used and dirty.
    I totally understand this is not where you are coming from and I do appreciate your honesty. Like I said - talking about it is the only way to help it IMHO.

    Comment by Samantha — January 8, 2009 @ 10:47 pm

  8. Men go on missions away from their wives for years, spend years in the military among men, go treking, do things which guarantees that they spend years in prisons yet have to have sex every day if they live in a suburban house with their wives? NOT. If sex was that important to them we would have no wars, empty prisons. This just doesn’t fly boys.

    Comment by Ruby — January 8, 2009 @ 10:51 pm

  9. I’m reading Olive Kitteridge by Elizabeth Strout right now. In the book, one of the characters turns to her husband in bed one night after 20+ years of marriage and tells him that she’s “done with that stuff.” So what does he do? He finds a lonely widow, and they have a standing engagement, a way to satisfy each of their biological desires. But over time, by seeing this new woman each week, he becomes attached to her, and (it seems) grows to love her. So what’s my point? I don’t know, I guess, maybe just that when we ask for something kind of unreasonable and get what we want, we can’t always see the negative long-term consequences when we’re making our demands (and I think that plays both ways, maybe).

    But I will say that when I’m tired, a quickie is pretty easy way to make both of us happy.

    Comment by Shelah — January 8, 2009 @ 11:00 pm

  10. OKAY - here we go. I have never posted on fMh before but this triggered my latent desires to express myself on this subject. I will try to be brief (I did say “try”). I was temple married for 29 years to a “righteous” priesthood holder, have nine children, two miscarriages. The “perfect” Mormon family. NOT. I was raped by my husband numerous times throughout our marriage because he needed sex - not loving intimacy - just sex. The first time it happened we were at BYU. I had no idea what to do or who to talk to or where to turn. After the second time,I spoke with my Bishop. “Your husband has needs” so I tried, oh how I tried.

    After 6 kids in 7 years I began using birth control. (I love my diaphram!) Two more planned children.Life was relatively good for a while. Then, I had a surprise pregnancy, #9.I had a son coming off a mission,kids getting married.I had not planned on this! Husband was ecstatic - He thought he was quite the stud and said so in Fast & Testimony meeting! (He was in the Bishopric). I was crushed and deeply hurt. Baby was born, he took me to his work, less than 12 hours after I gave birth
    (I always leave the Hosptial that soon) to show off HIS baby girl. Long story short - he wanted/needed sex so I could have more kids. I was forty three!!!

    I was tired of giving in for fear of being raped again. I was tired of him throwing scriptures at me, such as from Paul, tired of him reading from the Handbook of Instructions and telling me I was evil, tired of going to the temple with him only to be lectured on part of the sealing ceremony telling me to give in to his needs, so tired of being a sex object to him - not a whole women with needs of my own. We had gone to LDS counselling for years, but I never had the words or the courage to say what was really wrong - I felt like a prostitute for meetiing my husband’s sexual demands and that he had literally raped me over the years of our marriage.Finally, I told the therapist, a psychologist, and my Bishop. All hell broke loose.

    Husband went to a church court, was released from the Bishopric, and he blamed it ALL on me. Oh the terror I felt in my heart. I pleaded with him to separate for while - a grown-time out. The harassment continued until I felt certain it would escalate into physical abuse. I told the sherrif, husband was arrested (marital rape IS SEXUAL ASSAULT). After 18 months our divorce was final. I have absolutely no regrets. I prayed, fasted, attended the temple. I slept better than I had in years on the night he was arrested.

    My Stake Pres. told me that husband had broken the temple covenants by his treatment of me through the years. I still have deep issues with “righteous” priesthood holders using the scriptures, etc to force their wives to meet their sexual demands. Satan uses force, the Savior uses persuasion.

    Yes, it was horribly traumatic for our children; six married on their own,three were at home. Still has repercussions in our family. Two years later I married a non-member who lives the values I believe in, supports me in living the gospel and church activity, and treats me with such respect and gentleness. I have been greatly blessed. I never knew sex could be fearless and enjoyable. Another interestin tidbit. I always experience organsm with sex, so x-husband would say to me, after he raped me, “see you enjoyed it too” even though I explained to him it was simply my bodily response. The orgasm was not pleasurable to me; just a physical response. His rationalism still astounds me.

    Interestingly - three of my four married daughters (fifth is only 12 years old) have divorced directly because of pornography. They are good LDS girls. Two of them married returned missionairies, one was on the Stake High Council at the time. What is going on in the world today? While I never knew if my X was into porn, I now wonder if that fueled some of his sexual demands. Maybe porn has changed the way even LDS men view their wives??? I don’t believe for one second that “feminine awareness” is the culprit. Food for thought. LUCY SOPHIA

    Comment by LUCY SOPHIA — January 8, 2009 @ 11:00 pm

  11. I have a theory that dissatisfaction in a sex life often comes from two sources: men don’t feel like they get it enough, and women don’t feel like they get enough out of it. Sex (sometimes, hopefully not always) can be perceived as very invasive to women and can easily cross the line of “loving obligation” to “control.” I have to agree with Sare that it’s about “mutual companionship and mutual gratification.” I understand that both parties need sex, but a man is all but guaranteed to climax during every encounter, and a woman isn’t always. And while I’m not saying that you should keep a tally or anything, but if a man expects to climax every time, why shouldn’t a woman? I guess what I’m trying to say is that if men tried to focus more on the women’s needs and vice versa, we’d probably all be a little happier.

    Comment by Liz — January 8, 2009 @ 11:04 pm

  12. But I will say that when I’m tired, a quickie is pretty easy way to make both of us happy.

    thank goodness for the shower quickie. quick, easy and clean.

    and everyone is happy.

    Comment by mfranti — January 8, 2009 @ 11:05 pm

  13. Apogee,

    Another married, LDS man who occassionally reads this board. I understand and sympathize with you and have endured the same situation throughout my 21 year Temple Marriage. This is a serious issue which has led us to the brink of divorce, not because we don’t love one another but because we have come to resent each other- me for being denied and her for me asking for sex. I will also confess that this situation led to my disfellowship- after a year without sex I made a foolish mistake that I am now working to repent of. While I don’t have answers, I will recommend a book for you to read that we are using to try and resolve our intimacy issues. It is called “And They Were Not Ashamed: Strengthening Marriage Through Sexual Fulfillment” by Laura Brotherson and is available through Deseret Book. It addresses a lot of the causes behind initmacy issues and helps couples work to improve their relationship and intimacy (not just sex). We have both found this book helpful and it has helped us each understand issues we have that are contributing to our marital trials. Good luck, I think if we were all honest we would realize that this is a huge issue within the Church, we are just not comfortable or conditioned to talk about such “earthly” things.

    Comment by Monk — January 8, 2009 @ 11:08 pm

  14. I wanted to chime in and say that I liked the thoughts expressed in your third to last paragraph. It’s kind of like Dan Savage’s “GGG” concept adapted for Mormons. I absolutely agree with this. So many marriages would be happier if couples adopted this philosophy. We don’t hear this enough in church. I repeated some similar thoughts to my bishop once in casual conversation…he agreed with me. We really should be talking about this more. I hope you will talk about it more in whatever capacity you have in the church.

    On the other hand…as another member of the “patriarchy”, can I say that it’s hard not to read the rest of your post without feeling a bit of hostility? Do you really believe your wife thinks you are a “depraved sexual predator”? It’s really hard for me to just drop in the comments and say this, but I wonder how much of this is perpetuated by anger towards each other, or other issues for which sex only becomes the lightning rod. Are you the guy that commented on a very old thread the other day and called your wife your “enemy”? Either way…I sincerely hope you are both able to get things resolved.

    On a lighter note…this Manuary is awesome!

    Comment by mpb — January 8, 2009 @ 11:10 pm

  15. The central issue, if we are getting the full story, appears to not be frequency but rather control. For twenty years, Mark has acquiesced as to frequency - meaning Molly has set the terms and Mark has accepted them in order to make Molly happy. When he suggests higher frequency but still less than he wants (an attempt to compromise), she rejects it and refuses to compromise. Her stated “solution” is, “My way or the highway” - using the kids to add guilt to the equation.

    I think there are valuable topics of discussion in this post, and I also appreciate the raw honesty, but I believe the central issue is reaching an understanding of why she insists on absolute control over sex. It leads to all kinds of questions for me:

    1) Does she also control the form that sex (and/or foreplay) take?
    2) Has she ever had an orgasm? Is she capable of having an orgasm? (If she has not felt a connection through sex, and if it does nothing for her, cynicism and control issues are understandable.)
    3) Does she insist on control in other areas?
    4) Is her insistence here indicative of a deeper issue with control?
    5) Is there something about the way you treat her that makes her crave control in any way she can get it?
    6) Is there something about her past that makes her crave control? (over anything, but especially over the male authority figure in her life)
    7) Per #5, was she abused in some way (particularly sexually) at some point in her life? Has she been raped?

    I could go on and on, but your post doesn’t give me enough information to begin to know what the root problem is - and there always is a root problem when someone demands total control of anything, particularly sex.

    Other than that, excellent post. I just hope the discussion doesn’t turn into a fistfight over generalities and competing philosophies. This post deserves better than that.

    Comment by Ray — January 8, 2009 @ 11:19 pm

  16. oh ray, you say it so much better than i do.

    Comment by mfranti — January 8, 2009 @ 11:25 pm

  17. Setting aside all other issues which may be going on, I have to ask as a woman who loves sex, do you know if she experiences orgasms during sex with you? If not, is she open to experimenting with other methods or outside help like vibrators?

    Comment by DVK — January 8, 2009 @ 11:25 pm

  18. Oh, and one more point:

    Many military spouses must exercise absolute control of their lives while their spouses serve extended periods of time away from them. Many of them like that autonomy and power and control. Often, it is hard to let go of that control when the spouse returns from duty - especially if that spouse is going to leave again in the near future.

    Just something to consider.

    Comment by Ray — January 8, 2009 @ 11:26 pm

  19. Ray already laid out very well my thoughts!

    Comment by DVK — January 8, 2009 @ 11:27 pm

  20. yeah… me too.

    OK ray, take my post and make it into 5 concise points… I’d really appreciate it.

    Comment by sare — January 8, 2009 @ 11:30 pm

  21. mfranti, I also wanted to comment on #6 - which is brilliant.

    If women really understood how much control they have in this area over GOOD, LOVING men, I think they would give up some of that power and seek compromise much more often in order to keep that GOOD, LOVING man. Mormon men, by and large, are such men, and they are worth initial compromise while striving for unity.

    Slight hyperbole warning:

    Anyone who has a man who is willing to compromise with regard sexual frequency should see him as a man who is worth keeping and training. His other flaws are redeemable.

    Comment by Ray — January 8, 2009 @ 11:32 pm

  22. A few clarifications. First, the absolute key to any Pauline scripture is to embody his First Commandment–have love (charity, for you KJV freaks). The notion is that once you have that in your character, you don’t tend to ask willy-nilly. This was the premise I started out with when she made the Announcement, and it landed with a thud. I thought that compassionate Christians could speak wisdom on this to each other. She thought that I was only angling for a better negotiating position.

    On the issue of Quotas, when compromising, ya gotta start somewhere. Once you’re in a groove, then you can follow each other’s riffs, and you stop counting. But someone’s gotta say. “One, two, three, four . . .” to start the tune.

    If you detect hostility, it’s an x-ray cloud from the Big Bang. 24 hours ago I was hostile. Now I feel my self-esteem returning, and that I’m not a crappy husband and father (and I’m not), I can garner some objectivity. But, yeah, there’s some residuum.

    Understand how this has been a SPIRITUAL issue. I went to the temple yesterday and it was the worst day of my life. I was so very low. I thought this was all my fault, and that if the marriage came apart it would be because of my lasciviousness (I use this ridiculously arcane word pointedly). But now I know it’s a two-way street.

    On counseling. I will make this a spiritual quest. I will rise above this. She can join me, or not. If she sees I am earnest in becoming a better man, then counseling can work. But it will be a dud if a brilliant counselor comes up with a plan which she dismisses out of hand because it does not comport with her spiritual view of my and my propriety.

    Finally, what, if anything, underlies this? I am driven, and have some personal hobbies that take time away from the family. I have offered to give them up. She says this will make no difference. I take the kids to school, I clean the kitchen often, I do the finances, and often do the grocery shopping. I just bought her a new house. I buy her flowers at least twice a month (she adores flowers). I am not perfect, but I have read a lot, and I do try to punch the right buttons. Not because I want more sex, but because I understand that this is what she needs. I am trying.

    Thanks to all. I’m listening.

    Comment by Apogee — January 8, 2009 @ 11:35 pm

  23. I understand that her blanket refusal puts you in a darn tough spot, but you’ll never be able to debate your way to a willing partner.

    You’ve got to warm her up, and I echo the above, that this means counseling and communication and getting to the heart of the issue. I don’t just mean rub her shoulders a bit tonight and see if she changes her mind. Couples therapy is so valuable!

    Comment by cchrissyy — January 8, 2009 @ 11:36 pm

  24. Married 25 years. Detest sex–but not really, I don’t think. I just hate sex with my control freak. I fantasize about sex with someone who loves me who I love back. Never had it. Probably never will, in this life. I do it, I put up with it, I am even orgasmic (thank heavens for vibrators); but my husband is so completely emotionally and spiritually broken in so many ways that I can’t fix, and he won’t fix, and we have a situation that is very difficult. I know it’s less frequent than he wants, and less passionate than he wants, but for me it is just like, keeping myself from barfing, or screaming, or running away. I hate hate hate it. I am sorry for men like Apogee. And I am sorry for myself.

    Comment by anon — January 8, 2009 @ 11:39 pm

  25. “But it will be a dud if a brilliant counselor comes up with a plan which she dismisses out of hand because it does not comport with her spiritual view of my and my propriety.”

    That’s very true.

    Sigh.

    What Ray had to say brings up a lot of things I would never have thought of… the whole control issue, military adding to that.

    I’d say… she might refuse to accept counsel from a professional. But dang it, it’s worth a shot. Pray hard, find someone who comes highly reccomended from a close friend or family member, and see where that takes you. That’s my unsolicited, perhaps incredibly naive advice.

    Comment by sare — January 8, 2009 @ 11:41 pm

  26. If sex is unappealing to your wife, that’s sad. I would think a reaction might be concern and sympathy. Is there some problem that’s weighing on her mind, making it difficult for her to relax? Is she exhausted? Does she find sex painful? Do you even know why it is so unappealing to her? (I don’t think the “that’s just how women are” answer that the books have given you is specific enough to your wife.)

    And it’s sad that you are hurt. Does your wife even know that you are feeling hurt? A lot of times men bite their tongue and bury their feelings, so women might not realize what’s wrong. I don’t think quoting scripture at her and threatening her with answering at the judgment day for her actions will get you very far. Maybe just telling her that it felt like she was accusing you of being a sexual predator. Or that it felt like she would rather be sex-free than have you in her life. Maybe give her a chance to realize that you’re vulnerable, that you feel hurt when she says such things.

    Comment by Beijing — January 8, 2009 @ 11:42 pm

  27. I love my husband! I love that we don’t have problems in this area. I love that he doesn’t ask, he just comes on to me, but not when I am tired or every single night- when he knows that I feel well enough. I love that he takes pride in his love making skills; he wants me to feel good and is concerned about how I’m feeling, which in return modivates me to be better in this area.
    This may sound crazy, but tension is this area is foreign to me. A good sexual relationship is about giving on both sides- about wanting the other to feel good. So my question isn’t what aren’t you getting in the bedroom, it’s:
    1. what aren’t you giving
    2. are you being spontaneous
    3. are you being attentive to the way your partner is feeling
    STOP COUNTING!!!

    Comment by Hildegard — January 8, 2009 @ 11:45 pm

  28. Never say no. Period. Never demand, never refuse. Ask politely, humbly, and the other should say yes.

    What if your wife had politely, humbly asked to have sex less often?

    Comment by Starfoxy — January 8, 2009 @ 11:45 pm

  29. Apogee-

    It sounds like you are trying and that is commendable. Counseling is good and while yes it usually only works if both follow it - you should definitely continue on with or without her. Sadly its usually the one who would benefit the most who wont listen. I understand ir can be a spiritual issue as was mine when I left my ex because of his abuse of sex and my resulting lack of ever wanting to have anything to with it again. This fortunately has changed through professional counsel and prayer and just being with a totally awesome guy.
    It does sound like she has deeper issues going on and this is simply the way she is manifesting it. I agree with mfranti #6 and ray #12 & 18.
    However it works out I wish you the best. It sounds like you are a good man, and good men are worth keeping.

    Comment by Samantha — January 8, 2009 @ 11:49 pm

  30. Ray wrote:

    1) Does she also control the form that sex (and/or foreplay) take? I do what she asks
    2) Has she ever had an orgasm? Is she capable of having an orgasm? (If she has not felt a connection through sex, and if it does nothing for her, cynicism and control issues are understandable.)see below
    3) Does she insist on control in other areas?No–I give it to her. She is queen of the house and its management. But I often put kids to bed so she can get up early to exercise.
    4) Is her insistence here indicative of a deeper issue with control?Can’t say. See below.
    5) Is there something about the way you treat her that makes her crave control in any way she can get it?Dunno
    6) Is there something about her past that makes her crave control? (over anything, but especially over the male authority figure in her life)Perhaps, but I won’t violate her privacy and discuss it here. I suspect that has a small part to play here.
    7) Per #5, was she abused in some way (particularly sexually) at some point in her life? Has she been raped?     No

    Freaking brilliant.

    This woman I married has always been on a pedestal for me. She orgasms quite often, and I do not pressure her on this. That is not the issue. It is really quite simple: She views sex like cycling. She should only have to do it when she feels like it. Period. And she is willing to double that to once a week to “compromise.” Also, she feels that frequency cheapens things. She views sex as a spiritual experience, not solely for my gratification. So she is offended if I ask, even nicely.

    I will say, mea culpa, that when I was younger I pouted when she said no, and often begged or teased until she gave in. She referred to this in the Announcement. But what was I to think? Often these “persuaded” encounters led to her orgasm. So I assumed it was all good. I plead guilty. So, why can’t I move on with her, even admitting this (and I have, many times).

    Comment by Apogee — January 8, 2009 @ 11:50 pm

  31. Finally, what, if anything, underlies this? I am driven, and have some personal hobbies that take time away from the family. I have offered to give them up. She says this will make no difference. I take the kids to school, I clean the kitchen often, I do the finances, and often do the grocery shopping. I just bought her a new house. I buy her flowers at least twice a month (she adores flowers). I am not perfect, but I have read a lot, and I do try to punch the right buttons. Not because I want more sex, but because I understand that this is what she needs. I am trying.

    I’m sure you are, which makes me think you haven’t found her sex button. My husband did all of this above, still does and I love it, but it doesn’t get me all hot… we have discovered that I love, adore pillow talk. He will listen, we talk about work, about life (and we don’t have a tv in our bedroom which I would totally reccomend) about the kids, about sex, what we want in sex, what we want in marriage, and then I am ready.

    Each of us has a love language and it has helped me to know what mine is and what my husbands is.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 8, 2009 @ 11:55 pm

  32. What if your wife had politely, humbly asked to have sex less often?

    Oh, she has said that same thing. But that is not what Paul taught. He knew the dynamic 2,000 years ago when writing under inspiration. Your question denies the fundamental premise that sex in marriage is a need for the man. The question as you pose it then becomes absurd. What if my wife politely and humbly asked me to shoot her friend? Or not to eat for a week? To ask such a thing is to misapprehend what you seek.

    Then there is the ontological issue of whether such a question is even capable of being humble or polite.

    To ask such a thing is to hurt the other deeply.

    Another note. This discussion is reciprocal. If my wife and were flopped, I would never ask her to have sex less often.

    Comment by Apogee — January 8, 2009 @ 11:57 pm

  33. I’ve only been married for 2 years and we have no children so this issue really hasn’t come up for us yet. I haven’t have my husband really complain not having enough sex. If anything I ask for it more, bit I wonder how things will be a few years later and a few kids in the home. I’m very glad this issue has been brought up now before I grow up to crush my husbands soul. I really feel for you, but I too must confess that the women must never say no thing really struck a cord. Back in the day before “ feminine self awareness” and the discovery of the word no or whatever you said, there was a lot more marital rapes. Yes rapes. When someone says no and is than either forced to have sex either by force or manipulation that is rape regardless of the relationship of the two parties. That wasn’t illegal back in the good old days probably even today it’s be a hard issue to raise. But this goes back to the time of ownership of wives. “It’s not rape because she can’t say no, she’s his wife” I’m not suggesting that you are encouraging rape or anything of the sort. I’m hope you are speaking in jest when you say that women should never say no. Even in jest though this concept is highly offensive to me. Do you have a valid point about your needs being met? Yes! But you completely lost me with this talk of women never being able to say no. No mean No between even between a man and a wife.

    p.s. Sorry to be even more of a downer on an already bummer of a topic, but it’s an important point. I learned about marital rape in 9th grade and was very unenlightened in my responds. I raised my hand and asked my teacher “How can it be rape it they are married?” My teacher explained it as I have above.

    Comment by Polly Anna — January 8, 2009 @ 11:58 pm

  34. Ok - well to be blunt - it’s not soley for your gratification. It’s for both of your gratifications. And I am glad you now see that pouting and teasing was wrong. That is no way to get her in the mood! Honestly, I don’t see once a week as a deprivation. But thats just me and everyone is different and has different needs. It does sound like all the past (and any resentment caused by past behavior) could play a part and could certainly be block for her that she needs to work out. I could be way off base but….thats how it worked for me.

    Comment by Samantha — January 8, 2009 @ 11:58 pm

  35. I don’t have much to add here, but the main issue to me is the one having to do with her view of spirituality (or lack thereof) being tied to desire for sex. This, to me, speaks volumes about her perception and education as far as sex goes. I think sometimes in this church (and I believe this has been discussed before here), Youth leaders are not as careful as they should be about discussing the sanctity of sex. Maybe she has some residual feelings coming from her first chastity lessons–that sex is worldly. It is, but not when in the bonds God has set. You are in these bonds. This makes all the difference.

    What I’m trying to say is that the main thing that worries me from what you said is that she called you on your spirituality for wanting sex three times a week. This was an inappropriate jab, in my opinion, one that I think stems from her (incorrect?) basic perception–whether realized or not–of sex, not her love for you.

    I wholeheartedly second the book that was recommended: And They Were Not Ashamed by Laura Brotherson. And also Jeffery R. Holland’s talk, which you are probably very familiar with: Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments.

    Comment by Novice — January 8, 2009 @ 11:59 pm

  36. Uh uh. I don’t hear a man who’s temporarily lashing out in anger due to a recent sting; I hear someone who feels very entitled because of what he’s “providing.” What are Molly’s choices, if we assume that she is not receiving pleasure from sex, has attempted compromises, feels pressured to have sex against her will (does that *not* ring alarm bells for anyone else?) and yet is still willing to have, on her side presumably *unwanted* sex? I think it is reasonable to assume that the avenue open to her, if she is indeed, “Molly,” is to seek refuge in puritanism, marital chastity, whatever you wanna call it. Do I think that’s wise? No. I like open communication. I like, “touch me there,” “never touch me there, let me tell you about the time I was in the 2nd grade…” I like lots of talking lots of delving, exploring, cerebral and physical. But do I get why a woman would retreat to the safe haven of chastity (which she’s NOT) rather than endure sex against her will?? Yeah. I sure do.

    Comment by crazywomancreek — January 9, 2009 @ 12:00 am

  37. 33 years of marriage have let me know I don’t know enough to give anybody any advice. When it comes to my marriage, I can only be thankful I married a spouse who lets me be myself. She cuts me a lot of slack in many areas.

    I think my wife, although she enjoys sex, could go weeks without it, her life is so full of other things. A few years ago, I realized I would be “lucky” with once a week and that is where it has stayed. I don’t push for more because any more would be a seemingly be burden for her.

    Fortunately for me, that’s enough. My heart goes out to those who struggle in finding a happy medium. Life is hard enough without adding an over- or under-dose of intimacy to the picture.

    Comment by Jimmie — January 9, 2009 @ 12:00 am

  38. Another note. This discussion is reciprocal. If my wife and were flopped, I would never ask her to have sex less often.

    this was my very first thought when i read this post.

    could you imagine our horror as women if our husbands said, “i’d like to limit our sex to twice a month. i really do love you though.”

    assuming we’d like to have it 4 or more times a month

    Comment by mfranti — January 9, 2009 @ 12:02 am

  39. The LDS church tends to be about 30 years behind the rest of society in many social trends. In the 70’s the divorce rate exploded as feminism took root and women took control of their bodies. The LDS church may shortly face a wave of divorce as that trend catches up with LDS culture.
    Women have a right to control their bodies. They have a right to say no. Those of us who are sensitive to patriarchy, have always tried to be sensitive to our wives’ needs. Sadly, many, many of us now feel betrayed as our wives assert their absolute right to say no.
    Sexual intimacy is one of the most powerful bonds in marriage. Many women just do not seem to appreciate that abusing, neglecting or eliminating that bond will ultimately cause a marriage to come unglued. You may attribute it to an inherent weakness in men, moral failure, or anything else you want, but the fact remains that marriages will die. They are dying now.

    Comment by Simon — January 9, 2009 @ 12:02 am

  40. Sex is a need for a man? You gotta get off that. Sure, once a month maybe it really is a biological need, but its amazing how much less we “need” when we truely are humble and have charity.

    Comment by Hildegard — January 9, 2009 @ 12:09 am

  41. OK, everyone, remember that my first post was a two-parter–me, then my manfriends (the high councilors, good community servants, nonwifebeaters). I am addressing a broader issue here. I do appreciate the advice, and the little slaps I am getting for my mea culpas. But this is a huge problem out there. What do we hear every conference. Porn, porn, porn. Do I do porn? No. Would I even consider it in a good sexual relationship? No. Some of my friends have not had sex for a year. There is something profoundly wrong with that. It can drive a man to porn, no doubt.

    Deep breath. Go back to Paul. Who disagrees with 1 Corinthians 7? Anyone? Anyone? Paul is not talking to a$$hole husbands. Me and my manfriends are not a$$hole husbands. We are hurt. We are frustrated. And we are sad. Crazywomancreek, I have read your posts before, and you are a wise woman, like my mother, but if I am a true Christian, you would need not endure anything. I should know better than to ask in such a way that would hurt you. I would ask when it was an ache, and you would understand, because I would not abuse the privilege.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:13 am

  42. 40. Presuming that the ‘need’ is a selfish ‘need’?

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 12:14 am

  43. For the last year or so (not nearly as long as Apogee’s wife), I have absolutely not wanted to have sex with my husband. Two things.

    1) lately, having sex is sort of the mental equivalent of DH putting his hand over my mouth and nose and just holding it there for a good five minutes or so. I DO NOT mean literal suffocation, I just feel totally….. Invaded has the wrong connotation for this situation. Mental suffocation is as close as I can get. So even a hug makes me feel panicky. It is not not at all pleasant and no, it’s not something I can easily compromise on, even for as nice and wonderful and helpful a man as my husband. Could you, if what you were feeling was so viscerally negative?

    2) I am self-aware enough to know that the reasons (note the plural) I feel this way have nothing, really, to do with sex or with love for DH. They range from things going on in my own life, things that DH does (some of which he’s always done and they’ve always bugged me, some of which are new), things that have to do with our life as a couple and as parents of young children. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if there were some underlying health issues going on. Until we can, as individuals and as a couple, deal with those issues, the sexual interest isn’t going to return.

    Just addressing sex frequency is like putting a bandaid on a shotgun wound. If there ARE underlying issues, those have to be identified and addressed. (And yes, I am dealing with issues, and so is he. I’ve gotten so I can even initiate a hug….)

    Comment by Valerie — January 9, 2009 @ 12:15 am

  44. I wrote 40 in response to 32.

    Comment by Hildegard — January 9, 2009 @ 12:16 am

  45. Sex is a need for a man? You gotta get off that. Sure, once a month maybe it really is a biological need, but its amazing how much less we “need” when we truely are humble and have charity.

    Hildegard, sex as a need is writ throughout Scripture and modern therapy. You have succinctly encapsulated my counter premise.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:16 am

  46. I am happily married to a recovered sex addict and some of your justifications here are ringing my alarm bells. The pressure on her to go beyond her comfort zone. The pouting you used to do when she said no, and now the scriptural rationalization you are piling on her to change her mind about her marital duty. Your belief that sex is a need and that women don’t understand that. Her drive to take control back and not get vulnerable.

    Look, I don’t know you at all, but it hit me far too close to home and only you know if there’s truth there. Is that why you took her words as if she were calling you a depraved sexual predator? Is that the shameful label you put on yourself? If so, there are LDS 12-step meetings for men. They’re listed at providentliving.org

    Comment by anon111 — January 9, 2009 @ 12:19 am

  47. #39
    I really like that you’ve said. I am very sensitive to the idea that “marriages are dying” over this issue. I get it. Men need sex. It’s important. But anyone who believe that women should be deionized for saying no when they really mean it is dead wrong. No one should be force to do something especially as traumatizing as sex can be for anyone, but themselves and for mutual love for their spouse which is rooted from within. If you have sex for reasons like guilt, obligation, duty etc it’d going to be disastrous in the end. If your wife truly doesn’t want to have sex then my guess is there is a deeper issue to be dealt with and demanding it or resenting her is not they way to fix it.

    Comment by Polly Anna — January 9, 2009 @ 12:22 am

  48. Valerie

    Your issues sound like there is something else going on. My concern has been with the spiritual baggage that has been placed on me. What if your lack of interest was seen as a spiritual handicap by DH? Yikes! Incendiary.

    This brings up an important point. If my wife had cervical cancer or vaginal pain or something, my God, I would be so outta here and shut up. But we are both in good physical and mental health. So it comes down more to choice than circumstance.

    I want you all to know, even those that have dissed me. that I love your guts.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:22 am

  49. Your question denies the fundamental premise that sex in marriage is a need for the man.

    Sex in marriage is a need for both parties. I am the high libido partner in my marriage. This need, however, does not override bodily autonomy.

    Sex is not something men do to women’s bodies- and which women either deny or acquiesce. Sex is collaborative. Something both partners do together.
    ‘Having sex’ with a woman who is hating every minute of the encounter should be called what it is- rape. (You’ve said that your wife apparently enjoyed it, so I am not, NOT calling you a rapist.) I don’t know how a good person could enjoy sex with a partner who is barely tolerating it.

    Listen, your wife calling you depraved for wanting to have sex is wrong. It is wrong and mentally abusive. I have no doubt you personally are going through a lot of pain over this, and that you personally are not necessarily a bad, evil wicked person.

    However, the mindset that you are encouraging others to adopt is behind so much of what is wrong with relationships between men and women. I am all for couples having sex more often. I believe that inviting someone to say yes is completely different than telling someone to never say no.

    Go to counseling. Try and fix the problem. And if it comes down to it, get a divorce. You deserve to be happy in a relationship and have your needs met.

    Just never, NEVER, tell women that saying no is a sin. Never.

    Comment by Starfoxy — January 9, 2009 @ 12:24 am

  50. i am fascinated by this whole discussion. i find myself feeling a lot like “molly” many times in the last few years of our marriage. partly because i really just don’t understand why the heck they need to do it so darn much. i’m also a SAHM with two small kids and a husband that is in the military. he’s gone. a lot. i also have a few issues of my own i have been working on, and things have changed for the better. not a huge change, but enough where i’m not irritated when he asks. i pray that i never get to the point that you are at. i am so sad for you and wish i had some advice to share.

    Comment by just me — January 9, 2009 @ 12:24 am

  51. I want you all to know, even those that have dissed me. that I love your guts.

    Except for anon111. That was just beyond random.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:25 am

  52. I think that often the way to change a situation is to change your thinking. You need sex every day? Or you want it every day and you need it sometimes. You aren’t going to think your way out of this unless you think along new lines. Stop saying need, it might help.

    Comment by Hildegard — January 9, 2009 @ 12:29 am

  53. Starfoxy:

    Think about reciprocity. You should understand this as the high libido partner. To say that saying no is a sin is to say that saying no to one who really tries hard to be worthy to ask does no damage, or that the damage is all the asker’s fault, or that the damage does not hurt the marriage. Just ain’t so. I go back to Paul (feisty apostle–even wrote down when he was pissed at his colleagues. Never gonna see that kind of kiss and tell with the current Qourum of the Twelve ;-)).

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:29 am

  54. # 42 Amen.

    Sex as a scriptural or spiritual duty is bogus. Sex should be a loving, bonding, enjoyable experience for both. If it’s not then there is something else going on and that needs to get fixed. Demanding sex anyway will not help. Apogee I have to say that in some posts you come off as perfectly reasonable and in others you seem — well petty. I’m sorry if I’m just reading you wrong I mean no offense. However just some food for thought - Peter was also incredibly mysoginistic and preached all women should be subservient and silent. I’m not sure he is who I want to take my sexual intimacy advice from. Again all I can say is counseling on both parts.

    Comment by Samantha — January 9, 2009 @ 12:29 am

  55. I think that often the way to change a situation is to change your thinking. You need sex every day? Or you want it every day and you need it sometimes. You aren’t going to think your way out of this unless you think along new lines. Stop saying need, it might help.

    This is not epistemological. It’s hormonal. I don’t “know” what it is, a need, a desire, Boyd K. Packer’s little factory (wtf??). But it’s there, and we all know it is there, and I can’t think my way out of it any more than I can think my way into it.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:32 am

  56. #48
    Starfoxy just reinforces the point that these are the proverbial “Irreconcilable differences.” Divorce really sounds like the best option she had to offer.

    Comment by Simon — January 9, 2009 @ 12:32 am

  57. Samantha:

    I suppose I can be petty, but I’m stringing together a lot of threads, and I’m still rather raw.

    “Demand” is the wrong word. No one with a proper spirit would do such a thing.

    Let me rephrase your post: Affection and appreciation as a scriptural or spiritual duty is bogus. Affection and appreciation should be a loving, bonding, enjoyable experience for both. If it’s not then there is something else going on and that needs to get fixed.

    I replaced sex with a&a because many therapists regard the wife’s need for a&a right up there with husband’s need for sex. Just a thought.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:37 am

  58. Here’s my candid advice.

    First, get over the idea that you deserve your wife’s sex, that you own it, that it belongs to you. That’s wrong. Every individual has absolute say over his or her own body. Anything else is unthinkable.

    Second, begin to pay attention to what she is feeling, her needs, her desires, ahead of your own. Spend several of your obligatory once a week sessions focused entirely on her pleasure, denying yourself entirely of any but vicarious pleasure.

    I think if you shift your focus from your own needs to hers, something amazing might happen that ends up meeting your needs far better than you had ever dreamed possible. Don’t do it for that reason, though. Do it just because you love her and want to explore how much happiness you can bring her.

    Good luck. I really hope things work out for you. I’m sorry if my advice wasn’t very diplomatic. I don’t think you’re a rapist but I do think you are possibly rather self-centered. I think you may feel a sense of entitlement. Don’t worry, though. That can be fixed. It sounds like you’re willing to try whatever it takes to make things right.

    Comment by Tatiana — January 9, 2009 @ 12:38 am

  59. Wow! I’m amazed at how fast this conversation is developing. It’s the first time I’ve actually participated instead of lurking.

    This woman I married has always been on a pedestal for me.

    Not to get into flamer mode, picking apart each sentence, but as a wife in the no-sex mode, these lines really struck me. “This woman” is on a “pedestal”? A pedestal is for a statue, an anonymous icon, “Woman.” A wife is a friend and companion, and yes, a lover. I strongly suspect Apogee doesn’t mean that line the way I’m reading it but it does make me wonder if his understanding of his behavior (and hers) and her understanding of both of their behaviors are in accord.

    Apogee mentions all the things he does for her; are they the things she wants him to be doing? Not a conception of what she, as Woman, needs, based on readings and conversations with other people, but based on her telling him, honestly, what she needs and wants (again, not what she needs related to sex, but what she needs in the rest of their life together.)

    She views sex like cycling. She should only have to do it when she feels like it.

    Hrm. Well, yes. And so do es Apogee, evidently.

    Comment by Valerie — January 9, 2009 @ 12:43 am

  60. First, get over the idea that you deserve your wife’s sex, that you own it, that it belongs to you. That’s wrong. Every individual has absolute say over his or her own body. Anything else is unthinkable.

    Read 1 Cor. 7 and give me your thoughts. He speaks of neither spouse owning their body after marriage. Is this misogynistic? Do you disagree?

    I really have a hard time with cherrypicking stuff from the NT. Can we do that (yeah, I know about the hairstyle stuff, but here he is talking about relationships)? What is the normative limit of cherrypicking, it it is indeed sanctioned?

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:44 am

  61. #57 Agreed. Affection and appreciation should be a loving and bonding experience and can not be pressured,guilted or forced any more than sex. And if it is lacking then there is something else going on that needs to be adressed. I have no issues with your word replacement. :)

    I do not believe you are spiritually handicapped for wanting it more any more than she is spiritually handicapped by wanting it less. This does not make either of you bad people. Simply that there is a problem that needs to be adressed that cannot be fixed simply by having it(sex) more. Maybe the answer is counseling, maybe eventually divorce as you both deserve to be happy. I don’t know — just throwing thoughts out there, I am sorry if I offend.

    Comment by Samantha — January 9, 2009 @ 12:46 am

  62. Ouch. I appreciate your thoughtful approach to the issue and appreciate hearing the “traditionally male” POV on the matter. I even acquiesce to the notion that a lack of other-centered give-and-take may be at the problem’s root. But women’s self-awareness, guilty to a degree though it may be, would serve as counterpart to men’s lack thereof in some areas and over-abundance in others. AS you say, no man should ever *demand* sex. He also should exercise the good sense not to “politely ask” for it in certain circumstances. Because no matter how kindly you phrase a nookie request, surrounding circumstances may render the request unkind indeed.

    Going out on a personal limb of peril here: I like sex. Sex is fun. I consider myself an extremely sensual and quite sexual being and find Mormonism’s allowance of same liberating and downright cool. I also suffer from certain autoimmune diseases, one of which renders the aftermath of sex horrifically painful. Said aftermath requires, and I do not hyperbolize, opium. You got it–opium! Break out those poppies! (Wonder what the sex would be like if poppies employed earlier . . . hmm.)

    My husband, not being a moron and in fact being a genius, comprehends the practically inevitably Pavlovian conditioning such circumstances create . . . and has the good sense not to “politely ask” for any nookie unless he can take over the brunt of child care and housework the next day. Which means, not often considering his surgical schedule. For him to ask would equal abuse of a sort, and for me to acquiesce to such requests would amount to masochism of another. And would lead to resentment just as much as would no nookie whatsoever. There’s such a thing as psychological rape, when the woman cannot refuse for whatever sociological reason (and mind that intent gets exceedingly murky here–I’m not saying a guy who blithely accepts his wife’s resentful acquiescence is a rapist). But either party feeling incapable of saying “no” clearly would be as maritally destructive as would abstinence.

    Which is all to say, sex and sexual relationships carry far too many complications for reduction to a simple “ask nicely and don’t say no” equation. Sex is less arithmetic than calculus–more complex, but also more beautiful when navigated with some savvy.

    I find it fantabulous that you and your wife actually TALK about the issue. That bespeaks other types of marital goodness, even in the face of this especial tustle. Seriously. Kudos to you both. And thanks for sharing the side I don’t often consider. I have never understood why “sex” should be on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, because it just doesn’t seem like a “need” to me even though I’m quite sex positive. Help me understand more why it’s a need and not a want, as Hildegard says. What makes it a need, exactly?

    Comment by Janet — January 9, 2009 @ 12:47 am

  63. Once again, I appreciate the advice, but can I steer this to what I perceive as the broader problem, the pervasive problem (based on the experience of my friends), and not my situation? Is it possible to embrace a teaching that men do indeed need sex, and that in a proper Christian spirit (primarily from the man) women can accommodate that need without being disgruntled?

    The whole premise is that for a spouse to consistently say no to sex is incredibly damaging to families. Individuality aside. It just is.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:51 am

  64. I’m going to have to disagree with Ray a little bit (but only a little bit): it does sound like this is about control, but to me it sounds like her trying to gain control over something she feels like she’s never had control of. Apogee says at the beginning they have spent the “last 20 years … having sex two or three times a week,” which is obviously much more frequent than her ideal (once every two weeks). So it sounds like she feels like she’s been acquiescing control for the last 20 years and now feels the need to take some of that control back. (I’m not trying to suggest Apogee has done anything wrong in this — just that that might be her perspective.)

    I definitely think there needs to be compromise, and that both parties need to be willing to give. (I think that perhaps Apogee should have made the “right back at you” retort — after all, this is important to both of them, and they both need to be willing to give, and perhaps his wife needs to understand how he’s feeling about it a little more.) I think the help of a good marriage counselor could be a great thing here. If both parties want to make things work, but can’t come to a good agreement on their own, sometimes a good counselor can help them both see things from the other’s perspective, and help them work out a good compromise.

    I also second (or third?) the thought that perhaps Apogee’s wife wants sex much less because she’s not enjoying sex. I think it’s in general very hard for Mormon couples when one person isn’t enjoying sex, or having orgasm, because they don’t know how to change that, and they generally don’t feel like there’s anywhere to turn to try and figure it out, and it makes it frustrating for all involved. Hopefully a good counselor could help with this as well.

    Comment by Vada — January 9, 2009 @ 12:51 am

  65. “Here’s my candid advice.

    First, get over the idea that you deserve your wife’s sex, that you own it, that it belongs to you. That’s wrong. Every individual has absolute say over his or her own body. Anything else is unthinkable.”- 58

    “Sex as a scriptural or spiritual duty is bogus. Sex should be a loving, bonding, enjoyable experience for both. If it’s not then there is something else going on and that needs to get fixed. Demanding sex anyway will not help. Apogee I have to say that in some posts you come off as perfectly reasonable and in others you seem — well petty. I’m sorry if I’m just reading you wrong I mean no offense. However just some food for thought - Peter was also incredibly mysoginistic and preached all women should be subservient and silent. I’m not sure he is who I want to take my sexual intimacy advice from. Again all I can say is counseling on both parts.”-54

    Brilliant!

    Comment by Polly Anna — January 9, 2009 @ 12:53 am

  66. p.s. I’m not too good at this blog commenting thing yet. i don’t know how to do a lot of the tricks you do and I don’t understand some of the slang.

    Comment by Polly Anna — January 9, 2009 @ 12:54 am

  67. Sexual intimacy is one of the most powerful bonds in marriage. Many [people] just do not seem to appreciate that abusing, neglecting or eliminating that bond will ultimately cause a marriage to come unglued.

    I really like this.

    As I think about this, my last comment probably came off too harsh. To explain, I think there are two extremes on the same continuum.
    1. Not wanting to have sex (and therefore saying no).
    2. Vindictively, selfishly, carelessly, or callously setting terms on sex as a way to control your partner. Men generally do this by demanding sex whenever they say, women generally do this through more passive aggressive means such as blanket refusals.

    What I find wrong about this post is that is condemns both #2 *and* #1. There were no qualifiers, no weasel words.
    Had it said “In short, a woman who (selfishly, vindictively, carelessly) refuses a polite request for sex does so at her grave peril.” I would be content.

    Comment by Starfoxy — January 9, 2009 @ 12:58 am

  68. I am interested in the “ask nicely” for sex part that you discuss. Are you asking just before bed in sweet tones of affection? Do you take into consideration how her day has gone as well? Many years ago, on Oprah, there was discussion about this very thing (minus the religion). Since we women are emotionally based the point was made that intimacy for us begins nearer to 2pm rather than bedtime. I suggest showing your affection for her in ways of helping her with the kids, around the house, complimenting her efforts as a mother, wife and homemaker.

    My ex openly complained about not getting enough sex to all our friends(they didn’t stick around long) and family members. Interestingly, he complained when he got it 3 times/week and he complained when he got it 1 time per week. If he had been less critical of my homemaking and mothering and more helpful and complimentary, I would have felt like I was something other than his bedtime hooker. So in short, I guess I suggest making her feel like she matters to you and let her know you appreciate her. Give her physical affection and then not expect sex out of - sometimes all we want is a hug.

    Comment by anonfornow. — January 9, 2009 @ 12:59 am

  69. I won’t embrace that men need sex. I understand that men desire sex, and if my partner compassionate, I WANT it too.
    That is how this woman works.

    Comment by Hildegard — January 9, 2009 @ 12:59 am

  70. I haven’t read all of the comments, but was wondering how often you are away from home? (no need to answer) Okay- so way back in the day when I was single, I lived in a military-rich area of Southern California, with lots of single men of all ages ripe for the picking. Within a short amount of time, it became abundantly clear that these men were very professionally mature– but very emotionally and personally immature.

    This point was reinforced by a counselor who advised against becoming too involved with any man who was similarly absorbed- i.e. men who spend all of their spare time watching sports, doing church, in the military, etc. insomuch that they do not have the time commitment necessary to emotionally invest in, mature and sustain a family or marriage relationship.

    I do not intend this to be insulting and I am in no way accusing you of being emotionally immature- but perhaps- if you have been continually absent from the relationship with work, church or other obligations– just as she might be continually absent from the relationship looking after kids, callings, ect. perhaps the two of you have not matured your relationship into a place where your need for sex is understood as much as her need for communication, etc. (Hope this makes sense)

    I agree with you that professional advice is necessary, if for no other reason than her subtle threat of divorce over sex as often as every 4 days. It seems to me that something else is going on with her besides the sex issue.

    Comment by spunky — January 9, 2009 @ 1:00 am

  71. Apogee RE # 63

    The problem is like Janet said how do you explain need? I do understand that men get the same emotions and bonding during sex that we require beforehand. But how do you teach that men NEED sex without turning it into on obligatory duty that guilt trips all the wives whose husbands tell them they aren’t doing it enough? How often do they “need” it? Versus how often they want it? This is simply not quantifiable when used in such a broad brush stroke. Every couple is different.
    I do believ that it should be taught what I said above. Men get emotional satisfaction from *willing, open, loving* sexual intimacy that women ask for beforehand. We want to feel loved and appreciated before we are willing to open ourselves to that most intimate of sharings. They get that during and from sex. This should be taught. But not that they have to have it so we have to give or else..

    Comment by Samantha — January 9, 2009 @ 1:01 am

  72. Help me understand more why it’s a need and not a want, as Hildegard says. What makes it a need, exactly?

    Janet:
    First, your medical condition creates a whole new rubric that really has no traction in this discussion. Your situation is off-limits. My discussion is limited to choice situations. For example, post partum there was no nukie for us for eight weeks or so. Good to go.

    Now, as for “need”, I think the Scriptures and the GAs hit it over and over again. From an evolutionary biology perspective, clearly it is omnipresent, especially in the male. It is absolutely ovewhelming, and marriage was ordained to release that tension. I suppose some women can speak to this, but every man out there reading this post is probably nodding his head.

    I feel sort of like an ambassador from Earth on Vulcan. Some of you are raising your right eyebrow and saying, “A need? This is not logical.” And then McCoy comes up behind me and says, “Dammit, Jim, they’re all Vulcans!” I will avoid Shatnerian melodrama, but suffice it to say that it something very male, and very frustrating.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:01 am

  73. Had it said “In short, a woman who (selfishly, vindictively, carelessly) refuses a polite request for sex does so at her grave peril.” I would be content.

    So amended. Your emendation incorporates Pauline concepts that suffuse my thread. I wrote the original in a rush.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:04 am

  74. Let’s address that “need” issue, since it seems to be a sticking point. Do men need sex? Maslow thought so. Mark thinks so. Molly, and many other posters seem skeptical.
    Let me submit for your consideration the sweep an scope of human history. Read Shakespeare. Read the Bible. Watch the news. Watch Oprah.
    You can debate the biological necessity as much as you like. Here’s the bottom line: Men will pay for sex. They will steal for sex. The will go to war for sex. The will kill for sex. They will die for sex.
    Many men like me would leave a woman we love deeply and eternally rather than be without sex. It that entitlement, rather than “need?” You can debate. I believe the totality of literature and history makes your quibbles look silly indeed.

    Comment by Simon — January 9, 2009 @ 1:07 am

  75. #40, Hildegard: We’re not talking about a biological need for sex. We’re talking about an emotional need for that intimacy.

    That is a viable need.

    Comment by LisaJ — January 9, 2009 @ 1:07 am

  76. fwiw, Paul, not Peter, was the one who wrote to Timothy about women being silent.

    I think I agree with a lot of what Apogee is saying about the obligation. The women’s movement has changed a LOT and part of that is the ability not only to say no whenever and whyever she wants, but a sort of anti-entitlement. Like this: “*If* I have any reason whatever not to want it–if I ever am feeling less than eager–then *any* effort from my husband to change that state of reluctance can be bludgeoned with the double barrel of feminist whatpartofNOdon’tyouunderstand? PLUS a Puritanical ohyouwickedhornyevilcreepyMAN, and he has no right to object to either form of self-righteousness. I am right, I am not ready for sex, and I am entitled to refuse ANY of his claim or ‘entitlement’ to MY body.”

    I can say no for any reason. Is it always, always, always, unquestionably FAIR for me to say no? There may be, and I realize I could get POUNDED for saying this, an ever-so-careful element of sacrifice and balance, in our sexualities. Perhaps some people sacrifice the more obvious appetite for frequency when civilization demands a relationship in which to work that out; but perhaps, just perhaps, civilization also asks that for the sake of peace, joy, love, some sacrifice of comfort is necessary on the other side, as well–that those who are less inclined might consider the other person and do something out of love that they might not be immediately enthusiastic about doing. It can’t always be earth-shaking and mind-blowing for both partners; might that not occasionally be ok?

    And I do think that Apogee is probably right that someone who is married and has been without for months or over a year is more likely to seek other outlets. And this goes for women addicted to romance novels as well as men addicted to photoporn.

    Comment by hero — January 9, 2009 @ 1:08 am

  77. Bravo, Simon, Bravo! The damned English major just trumped the philosopher!

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:08 am

  78. First of all, I am so sorry about your situation. I always wonder, if men and women were meant to be together, why are sexual preferences so different?

    There is one thing I don’t quite agree with you though. “Never demand, never refuse.” My husband has never been demanding but I also feel bad for not refusing. I simply feel it is unfair to just “fake it” for my husband if I’m not in the mood. We usually have sex 3 to 4 times a week so I’m not making him wait that long, but I just don’t want to be one of those wives that is repulsed by sex.

    I do think that most LDS women are not in tune with their sexuality. After I was first married, my husband encouraged me to read books about sex and orgasms. He bought me a vibrator and encouraged me to masturbate. I was really hesitant at first, but found I was able to explore myself and my inner desires.

    I think most LDS women just don’t know how to make sex feel good. I think that is one of the main reasons there are so many martial conflicts around sex. It’s a shame because it can really make a relationship amazing.

    Comment by Shannon — January 9, 2009 @ 1:10 am

  79. #74 - quibbles? really? As far as I know celibacy never proved fatal to anyone. Men’s eternal quest for sex does not eliminate our right to reserve the right to join in sexual intimacy only for loving, sharing, open reasons with a man of our choosing. Just because a man is willing to kill, steal, pay for and rape for sex does not make us or our needs mere quibbles.

    Comment by Samantha — January 9, 2009 @ 1:13 am

  80. #40, Hildegard: We’re not talking about a biological need for sex. We’re talking about an emotional need for that intimacy.

    That is a viable need.

    Curious. Usually women are regarded as needing emotional intimacy. Indeed, sex without intimacy is a pet peeve for many women. Allow me to say this. For a woman, the emotional intimacy of a cuddle can do the trick. A man also needs that cuddle/intimacy, but also needs the release that such a cuddle often engenders. I will say that it is always better when the sex is emotional and not mechanical. We’re not all morons that way.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:13 am

  81. #74 - “Here’s the bottom line: Men will pay for sex. They will steal for sex. The will go to war for sex. The will kill for sex. They will die for sex.”

    But will they change diapers, wash dishes and watch chick flicks for it?

    Comment by bigmama — January 9, 2009 @ 1:16 am

  82. #74 - quibbles? really? As far as I know celibacy never proved fatal to anyone.

    No, but how Hobbsian. A life that is nasty, brutish and short.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:17 am

  83. here let me try this:

    I just hope the discussion doesn’t turn into a fistfight over generalities and competing philosophies. This post deserves better than that.

    -Ray

    Comment by mfranti — January 9, 2009 @ 1:18 am

  84. But will they change diapers, wash dishes and watch chick flicks for it?

    I guarandamntee you I can change a diaper faster than you can. Been there done that about 10,000 times (I have a lot of kids).

    Chick flicks? Check out Bellevue–widow returns her husband’s ashes to the places he loves in an old Bellevue convertible with two girlfriends. Got that one for my wife and I last week.

    Folks, I’m not that bad a guy.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:20 am

  85. #79
    Quite right, celibacy never killed anyone. It does however kill marriages. The quibbling point is not women’s needs, but men’s. While you muse over whether we REALLY need it, the relationship languishes then perishes, then the house is on the market and we are all apartment shopping. And the children suffer. Did he “need” it? If you are divorced, the answer was yes. Why test the premise?

    Comment by Simon — January 9, 2009 @ 1:21 am

  86. As a girl who used to be this wife (and please, I’m putting myself out here right now), I can tell you it isn’t about what he can do to help her to be more in the mood.This is probably, from what I’ve read, a personal issue for her.

    I don’t know what it would take…if anything. A man can do the dishes, fold the laundry, give his wife flowers, write her love notes, be gentle and kind and she still may scrape up a reason to say no. There’s something else going on, and no I don’t mean an affair but an internal emotional disconnect. Perhaps an issue with the initial intimacy since she seems to do okay after that.

    Best of luck, Apogee. To you and your wife.

    Comment by LisaJ — January 9, 2009 @ 1:21 am

  87. #82 not necessarily. There are many people that choose it, revel in it, and live long healthy happy lives. . But that’s not the point. All I was trying to get across is that just because *some* men are willing to go to any lengths does not equal “I want it, I need it, so you have to give it to me”. I realize that is not what you specifically are trying to say - at least I hope not - but that is how #74 came off to me personally.

    Comment by Samantha — January 9, 2009 @ 1:21 am

  88. And Apogee I am certainly not trying to say you are a bad guy. I really do wish you and your wife the best of luck. I do think intimacy in marriage is a big deal but just to reiterate some of my previous posts — there is more to this issue than sex. For her at least that cannot be fixed by sex. Yes by all means teach that men need emotional intimacy as well, but dont put us under obligation or spiritual condemnation because we say no. It is no more fair than your wife using spiritual condemnation on you for wanting more.

    Comment by Samantha — January 9, 2009 @ 1:25 am

  89. oh, Apogee, in case you were feeling like nobody liked it…i thought this was hilarious:

    I feel sort of like an ambassador from Earth on Vulcan. Some of you are raising your right eyebrow and saying, “A need? This is not logical.” And then McCoy comes up behind me and says, “Dammit, Jim, they’re all Vulcans!” I will avoid Shatnerian melodrama, but suffice it to say that it something very male, and very frustrating.

    it was the term, “Shatnerian” that brought it all home for me.

    Comment by mfranti — January 9, 2009 @ 1:26 am

  90. mfranti–

    You are beyond sweet.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:28 am

  91. Good night, all.

    If anything, you have all convinced me that my marriage is worth saving. I will give my sleeping wife a hug as I go to bed, and she will awake and wonder why the big hug, and I will say that some friends thought it was a good idea. No, I won’t ask for anything. ;-) She has a big day tomorrow. Look forward to the overnight and morning posts.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:32 am

  92. In one way, everyone still is talking past each other. Let me ask the following:

    1) Why is sexual intercourse (which is what we have been discussing when the word “sex” is used) the only alternative when either a wife or a husband needs a sexual release?
    2) If either one is going to explode or deaden emotionally if left unattended, why are the only alternatives to take care of it alone or insist that intercourse must occur?

    I’ve been exhausted when my wife was revved up, and she’s been exhausted when I was revved up. Part of a mature relationship is working out an alternative to the extremes that will accomplish what is needed in those instances to provide at least enough satisfaction to postpone actual intercourse until both are ready. Insisting on unalterable extremes is easy and lazy; working out viable options that allow for postponement is harder but MUCH more rewarding.

    I submit that if intercourse is the only acceptable option to either partner whenever s/he is sexually aroused, no matter how the other is feeling, that partner is acting selfishly. Otoh, if denial and the cold shoulder is the only acceptable option to either partner when the other is aroused and s/he is not, that partner also is acting selfishly.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 1:44 am

  93. I think that, perhaps, one of the reasons for the vehement disagreement to the idea that sex is, in men, a need is that that kind of thinking has led to much pain for women. For example, after getting sexually abused by a long time boyfriend, the general opinion of everyone, parents and longtime friends included, was that it was my fault, since it is expected for men to have an uncontrollable attraction to the female body. I cried and cried everyday for over a year. I lived alone for the first few months, and honestly felt like I was descending into a sort of madness, since I could not and still do not, see how sexual behavior in men can be excused as completely and naturally uncontrollable. Women have their own sexuality, but it is cruel and ridiculous to ask women to control both their own sexuality and that of every man they come in contact with. I found that it was just easier to deny the existence of my own sexuality and focus on helping the men “control themselves” by dressing modestly and being as standoffish and cold as possible. It is because of this that I seem drawn more toward men in whom I see a great deal of restraint and control, since it is exhausting and demeaning to be expected to be responsible for the sexual behavior of your partner. Whether you believe that men are incapable of controlling their sexual behavior without extensive help from all females, it must be acknowledged that women will be punished, socially and emotionally and even judicially for the irresponsible sexual behavior of men. Women are often socially rejected for public displays of affection, and I have found that I live my life in private fear that if I were ever to tell someone that I enjoyed sex, or even showed a little friskiness that I would lose any defense or social support if something did happen to me again.
    As I read these posts I cried non-stop, because I have experienced almost uncontrollable feelings of fear and anger when some poor boy or another tried to onto me. It is hard to describe how difficult, sickening and helpless you can feel when you do not sense love or social consideration in your partner. I used to seriously consider substance abuse as a way of getting through those times, just to shut off my brain and keep me from becoming a scared rabbit or angry monster during intimacy.
    I really feel for you Apogee though. I think that your story emphasizes the fact that men are also emotionally invested in sex, and understanding coldness and denial can break men just as it can women. Thank you.

    Comment by Jddaughter — January 9, 2009 @ 1:50 am

  94. Wow, this thread exploded fast. I want to add a couple of things:

    1. I think sex in marriage can be a need. It’s certainly possible to go for years without sex (and the church expects this of many people), but it’s it’s not always possible to have emotional intimacy between two people without sex. And I definitely think a marriage needs emotional intimacy.

    2. I think husbands shouldn’t discount the wife’s need to not have sex. This can definitely be a need. If I have a migraine, I need to not have sex. Some days after I have been used as a jungle gym by small bodies all day, I need to just not be touched at all (and therefore need to not have sex). I have a hard time getting to sleep after sex, so sometimes I need to not have sex so I can get up and function the next morning. Refusing sex (at least sometimes) can be a need just as much as desiring sex can be.

    3. There has got to be compromise, and I definitely think anyone (Apogee or any of his friends who he discussed this with who are in similar situations) who is feeling this way needs to talk with their wives about what they are feeling, and most likely needs to go to a marriage counselor. Not because either party is necessarily doing anything wrong, but because of exactly what Apogee said: “I feel sort of like an ambassador from Earth on Vulcan.” Many men and women just talk past each other on things like this, and can’t understand why the other person just doesn’t get it. A good counselor can act as an interpreter, for both parties.

    Best of luck to you and your wife (and to your friends and their wives, too)!

    Comment by Vada — January 9, 2009 @ 1:50 am

  95. #92 agreed, absolutely.

    Also let me just add(i know I have added too much already) that I love to book suggestions and would Mars and Venus in the Bedroom. Also a song (yes I know how primary). It is called After Your Orgasm by David Wilcox. Don’t be turned off by the title. It is a really beautiful song, that speaks (at least to me) volumes about true intimacy and what it is supposed to be like. The lyrics are here David Wilcox - After your orgasm lyrics“>
    but you really need to hear him sing it to get the full effect. Anyway - goodnight Apogee and best wishes.

    Comment by Samantha — January 9, 2009 @ 1:54 am

  96. Crap not only can I not spell and leave out words when Im tired but I did the link thing wrong. Sorry. *the book suggestions and *would add

    Comment by Samantha — January 9, 2009 @ 1:59 am

  97. #86 said,

    internal emotional disconnect

    I’d guess this has everything to do with Molly’s refusals, and quite possibly the refusals of Apogee’s friend’s wives, too. I’d say it boils down to finding out why they don’t/she doesn’t feel emotionally connected to their husband(s).

    Apogee, in your case, even though you (and maybe she) think she’s healthy, there still could be something physical/hormonal - unseen and undiscovered to this point - which also prevents the emotional connection.

    Or it could be a lack of trust in you for some reason, even if it’s not rational. For example, because of your military absences, she may not trust that you will be back safe and sound at the end of deployment. This may be preventing her from forming an emotional connection with you for fear of losing you. (Again, not necessarily rational, but who knows.) It could be that she perceives that you’re not committed to eternity with her - (”for richer for poorer, sickness or health, sex or no sex”) - and can’t connect emotionally because she doesn’t know if you’ll really be there forever. Yada yada.

    Men (seem to) get the emotional connection when sex happens.
    Women (often) need the emotional connection before sex happens.

    If my guess is right, find out why there isn’t an emotional connection there for her. As others have said, counseling if possible… and not counseling to improve your sex life, but counseling just to help explore why she’s been unable to form an emotional attachment and to resolve those issues. The sex would then probably happen with time.

    Comment by Thoughts — January 9, 2009 @ 2:03 am

  98. Last one before I head to bed to sleep with my wife - and nothing more:

    Garth Brooks recorded a song years ago entitled “Somewhere Other Than the Night” that is profound. “He” could be changed to “she” (and vice versa) without damaging the main point at all.
    ———————————————————————————————–
    He could see the storm clouds rollin’ across the hill.
    He barely beat the rain in from the field.
    In between the back doors slammin’ she heard him say,
    “Damn this rain, and damn this wasted day.”

    But she’d been waitin’ for this day for, oh, so long.
    She was standin’ in the kitchen with nothin’ but her apron on.
    In disbelief he stood and he stared a while.
    When their eyes met, they both began to smile.

    Somewhere other than the night
    She needs to hear, “I love you.”
    Somewhere other than the night
    She needs to know you care.
    She wants to know she’s needed;
    She needs to be held tight -
    Somewhere other than the night.

    They spent the day wrapped up in a blanket
    On the front porch swing.
    He’d come to realize he’d neglected certain things.
    There are times she feels alone even by his side;
    It was the first time she ever saw him cry.

    Somewhere other than the night
    She needs to hear, “I love you.”
    Somewhere other than the night
    She needs to know you care.
    She wants to know she’s needed;
    She needs to be held tight -
    Somewhere other than the night.

    To know she’s needed,
    She needs to be held tight -
    Somewhere other than the night.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 2:08 am

  99. Apogee: I agree with you that sex is a need for men. Jddaughter: I don’t think that need should be “uncontrollable”. Apogee is arguing that he is reasonable to ask for sex 2-3 times a week, not that he cannot go without sex for longer. I don’t think he’s got malevolent or completely selfish intent in asking for sex. He just feels like he shouldn’t have to go longer than 2-3 times a week, and is trying to use scripture to justify himself.

    Apogee, I hope that doesn’t sound too harsh. I’m sure you and your friends are all good men. The vast majority of people out there are good people, too. Your wife is, I’m sure, a good person. Like many other people who have commented, I think this really isn’t about sex for you or your friends. Sure, sex is a need, but there are other needs not being met in your relationship, and the touchy issue (no pun intended) is that sexual frequency desires are not being met on either side. While I like Ray’s idea that sex doesn’t have to include intercourse or mutual gratification, I think that won’t really answer the underlying issues here, which are the other emotional, non-sexual needs that aren’t being met in your relationship. I’m sure Ray would agree with that, too.

    Concerning Pauline scripture: today many biblical scholars distrust Pauline authorship of many of the epistles attributed to him, and also believe that some verses and phrases within texts actually believed to have been written by Paul were added at a later date by men seeking to reinforce attitudes and social mores that gave men the power and authority and forced women into subservience and silence. I’m not claiming to know whether Paul actually wrote the words found in 1 Corinthians or not, but when we read the Bible, I find it helpful to try to remember that not all that is found therein is inspired, or even written by the person by which it purports to be written.

    Also, I find it helpful to approach scripture keeping in mind our best understanding of social, political, economic, and religious contexts. The Church disregards many words spoken by 19th-century modern prophets (for example, counsel and sermons regarding blacks as inferior spirits, children of Cain, never have the priesthood, etc.) as simply the product of their time period. Whether or not you agree with their dismissal of these teachings is another issue entirely (just so we don’t get threadjacked, I think BY and others were totally off-base on the whole blacks and the priesthood thing). But I think its helpful to understand 1 Cor. 7 in the context of male and female social roles and expectations in that ancient civilization. Our civilization has vastly different expectations and attitudes in these regards. We don’t emulate ancient ways of living as the “ideal”, else why don’t we persist in practicing polygamy, or killing disobedient children, or being forced to marry your brother’s widow?

    I don’t disagree with you or with what I believe the author of 1 Cor. 7 is saying about men (or women) having sexual needs. I just cannot in good conscience support the assumption that because these needs exist, wives should feel obligated by their husbands and Paul to submit their bodies. Husbands shouldn’t feel this way either. Remember, in v. 6-7, Paul says “This I say by way of concession, not of command. I wish that all were as I myself am [unmarried (c.f. v.8)].” It actually sounds like Paul is advocating sexual abstinence as the highest ideal, with marriage and sexual relations a concession to those who don’t have the self-control to mortify the flesh! How do you like them apples?

    In the end, I think 1 Cor. 7 was advice given from the perspective of one who, while he may have been very wise and certainly had a strong testimony of the gospel, was nevertheless a man, and not always speaking universally-applicable words. 1 Cor. 7 is not a “Thus saith the LORD…” chapter, nor is it “I saw in vision…”, or even “The spirit speaketh this to my soul, and I share it with thee…” Heck, It may not even have been Paul who wrote it. If I were to recommend one thing about scripture, it is that I would be extremely careful in the way you choose to use them. I would ask myself, “Am I using this scripture to justify my own opinions?”, and “Am I using this scripture as a weapon in a verbal sparring match?” The spiritual and emotional casualties resulting from the misuse of scripture can be serious indeed.

    Best of luck working through these issues with your wife and (hopefully) together with a qualified professional marriage counselor (not just the bishop). You are not alone, and there’s probably a way to mend the broken hearts and hands that hang down. Cheers.

    Comment by Observer — January 9, 2009 @ 2:40 am

  100. Great post–I have read most of the comments. Apogee, while this is not personal advice per se, as you want to focus more on the broader picture, I wanted to mention the counseling option. There are a lot of well-intentioned unskilled counselors out there. The issues being discussed in this thread could really be helped by what is called “Emotionally Focused Therapy.” Basically it address the underlying emotions and attachment needs underneath the conflict, sexual problems, and etc.

    A good counselor will usually be able to get the less-willing partner on board, and in EFT the counselor will facilitate both partners’ discovery of what is going on underneath emotionally, and what their needs are, and create emotional experiences IN the sessions that are nigh impossible without the help of a professional. You can find an EFT therapist here: http://eft.ca/findtherapist.php
    It’s not like EFT is the solution for everything, but I think it is very applicable in these cases with very distressing issues.

    Obviously wives who aren’t into sex have needs too, just like their husbands do. Counseling doesn’t solve everything, and sometimes doesn’t help at all. But good counseling REALLY helps (EFT for example has a 75% or so rate of improvement in relationships), and as a therapist I just cringe when I hear about people like you and your church leaders with the same problems, and some of the people who have been commenting. We all are trying to get our needs met, but often we just end up hurting each other in that pursuit. Reading scriptures to each other about why we should be doing this or that, or etc. will not help when we are stuck in these cycles.

    It doesn’t have to be so bad for so many! It can be great! Or at the very least, good enough.

    Comment by adamf — January 9, 2009 @ 3:19 am

  101. Didn’t you think it was weird when you first got married that yesterday you couldn’t have sex, couldn’t even think about it without feeling like you would go to hell for it, and today you were supposed to go for it, be crazy about it, become this sexual being, skilled at pleasing your new spouse?

    I think the church does such an excellent job of telling kids and young single adults NO NO NO sex, that it’s naughty, it’s dirty, and only bad people want sex, that it is very difficult for them to break out of that mindset once they are married and are supposed to. I know for myself, it took a few really good romance novels for me to say to myself, “What? Women can enjoy sex?” (Not that I’m recommending romance novels to anyone).

    I think naturally it takes some time to overcome this, to become comfortable not just with your partner, but with yourself and your own body. Having an orgasm is one thing, that’s just the body, but convincing your spirit that what you are doing is not wrong, even though you may know it, is sometimes very difficult. From the comments, it sounds like many women, especially, are taking a long time to come to this realization that sex is good, and natural, a very special gift and privilege,for our enjoyment, and can be very useful in building our marraiges into strong, fulfilling relationships.

    When my husband and I met with my bishop before our wedding, he gave us this counsel: Never use sex as a weapon. This was creepy because my bishop happened to be my dad and I had to wonder if he spoke from experience, but it was the absolute BEST advice I have ever received. I didn’t understand it at the time, how could I? But looking back after eight years of following that counsel (both of us following it), I can see that it was inspired.

    I don’t know who is right or who is wrong or if either one of you is. I don’t know the answer to this question. But truly, I don’t think a few times a week is an unreasonable request for a man. But I agree with others, that it is not about frequency for your wife; there is an underlying cause for her reluctance. Find it.

    Comment by Misty — January 9, 2009 @ 4:34 am

  102. Boyd K. Packer’s little factory (wtf??).

    This made me laugh. More importantly, though, this thread has given me a lot to think about and discuss with my fiancée as I approach marriage. Thank you, Apogee, for your candor. Thanks to everyone else who has augmented the original ideas with thought-provoking (and, at times, thoughtfully provocative) responses.

    Comment by fishingwithjohn — January 9, 2009 @ 4:55 am

  103. Apogee,

    Thanks for your post- it sounded very, very similar to my situation. One of the primary reasons I married my wife was because I sensed sexual compatibility at the outset, but after we were married, she lost her desire in a way that sounds exactly like your wife. My personal theory is that she had imagined me to be a combination of Matthew McConaughey, Hugh Grant, Mr. Darcy, and who knows what other men from her chick flicks; when we got married and I turned out to be a regular guy, she came crashing down to earth, and now we actually have to schedule sex on the calendar for her to ever think about it. It’s insulting and it enrages me at times, how a woman can marry and then demonstrate a complete lack of attraction afterwards, and then be outraged at the idea that men might find the idea of polygamy or an open marriage appealing.
    A lot of you women commenters have sad stories to tell of abusive husbands, and my heart goes out to you (while my brain says, “What in the hell were you thinking when you married that guy?”). But the point of Apogee’s post is, there are a lot of us who are doing well financially, we are very helpful around the house, we help with the kids, and all of the other things that you girls say are prerequisites, and yet our wives demonstrate a complete lack of attraction to us. The idea that if a man will just do x and y, then his wife will think about sex more, is a lie. I have found that I can clean every room in the house and fix a million different problems, and I am no more likely to have sex at the end of the day than if I were to sit around on my butt watching football and belching.
    You women who understand this and are proactive about sex- your husbands should thank God every day for what they have, because simply based on conversations with men I know, you are a rare find.

    Comment by Anonyman — January 9, 2009 @ 5:52 am

  104. would you still want to have sex with her if she got really fat? Just wondering, because I did and my dh doesn’t seem to wanna have sex anymore. I’m fat, but I do like sex.

    Comment by me — January 9, 2009 @ 6:18 am

  105. Misty, we do do a disservice to our youngsters when we constantly tell them: NO NO No. As a branch president and former high Councilor over the YW, I teach our YW and YM that sex is a beautiful gift that HF gave to all of us to create wonderful bonds between a man an a wife. Rather than say sex is a NO NO, I tell them that it’s a WAIT WAIT.

    For Janet, (#63 I think), she querried “What makes it a need, exactly?

    HMMM…………. How many ways can I say this?
    When a man has sexual relations with his spouse he feels the following (in no particular order:
    1. He’s still wanted and loved.
    2. He feels a relief from the arrows and slings of life.
    3. He just about always has an orgasm and gets the chemichal dopamine rush that ensues.
    4. He feels that he’s glad that after all these years, he can still perform and feels some sense of manliness (depends on your age i guess) but it is always validating for the man no matter the age.
    5. He feels tremendous love and appreciation for his wife (both romantic and just in a mutual admiration sort of a way).
    6. He feels more able to control his own thoughts and drives because there are plenty of low cut blouses and Victoria’s secret ads and commercials out there as well as porn. (I tell my YM that most are born addicted to porn so they have to be doubly sure to stay away).What a great thing to be able to switch in our minds the outside temptations for a mental and emotional picture of a beautiful naked eternal lover.

    I could go on. My wife tries to never turn me down. Is she always gung ho? Nope. Do I try to pick my times when she is not in the midst of a brain numbing Stake YW event? Sure (but not always). Will a quickie do - sure that’s fine sometimes.

    I honestly have little hope that men and women will ever “get” the other side’s point of view. Won’t happen I tell ya. So what, I do lots of things for my wife that I’d rather not do from a purely selfish standpoint. She does the same and sometimes sex is probably one of those things. We love each other and try to each go way beyond “halfsies.” That’s the only way it (marriage) will ever work.

    Good night.

    Comment by pres — January 9, 2009 @ 6:19 am

  106. That was to Janet at # 62.

    By the way, my comments do not suggest that our wives must take the full responsibility when we don’t have all those great feelings because we are unhappy with the frequency of our relations. It’s just to say that there is an upside (a really big one) that approaches if not meets the “need” threshold.

    Comment by pres — January 9, 2009 @ 6:27 am

  107. Shouldn’t go back and re-read my posts. With the YM comment, I teel them that they come hard wired to appreciate to feminine form and that they will naturally be drawn to it — basically born addicted to it. The just have to stay away because of that and save all the gawking for their mates.

    Comment by pres — January 9, 2009 @ 6:33 am

  108. I too highly recommend Laura Brotherson’s book. I believe it can enhance ANY marriage. I also recommend counseling with a GOOD counselor.

    You are hurting, she is hurting. Your are right, she is right. You are wrong, she is wrong. A good counselor can help you work it all out.

    I have a policy of never saying no to my husband, but he is very respectful of me and doesn’t demand it. I have also found that even when I’m not in the mood, I can get in the mood with enough foreplay. It took me a while to get to this point but I am blessed to have an awesome husband. I would never have come to my policy of not saying “no” if my husband had demanded it.

    Comment by DeeAnn — January 9, 2009 @ 7:08 am

  109. Just to shoot this out there, only because I have thought about it…
    What would you do if she were no longer able to physically have sex anymore?
    My mother is a widow and has been without it for some time now. Same goes for my mother in law. Both have said they miss the companionship the most and not so much the act.

    If something were to happen to my husband, I wouldn’t just take off or find gratification elsewhere. I realize it would be missing, but hells bells, there is more the marriage then just sex.

    Comment by Katie — January 9, 2009 @ 9:01 am

  110. Apogee, to discuss your actual point, all those YW lessons involving licked cupcakes, stained wedding dresses, torn up roses, chewed gum have their effect. So, girls are taught that sex is not only icky, but the activity makes you a sinner; not only a sinner, but all those horrible words like, uh, “slut”. Bad, bad bad bad. Really bad. At the same time we (that would be me) have to discuss this particular embarassing potentially damning issue with someone with a great deal of power over our lives. The Bishop. Plus, we have to dress carefully, for fear we’ll end up as “walking pornography,” and are told all that stuff up above in the thread–i.e., girls really aren’t into that sort of thing.

    What happens? With, as far as I can tell, many women, they end totally hating sex. They become sexual anorexics; even those like your wife who orgasm.

    I sympathise totally with you, even though female, because I have, I believe, a normal sex drive. Let me explain. Even though I grew up Mormon, I did not believe, though I wanted to soooo very badly. I was, however, very modest and meek. The Bishop’s interviews scarred me, perhaps for life. But, because I saw the questions as none of their business, and the men as (I realise this is harsh, but, hey) what’s the word for people who like to watch?) it didn’t affect me sexually, sorta.

    I married a man (also from a Mormon background) that would withhold sex from me. It was horrible. When I wasn’t getting sufficiently, uh, laid? it’s all I could think about. Sexual thoughts, which I could not repress, would invade my every waking hour. It’s horrible, and makes me wonder what “sex addiction” really means. I would do the same for my husband that you would do for your wife; I would try to be extra nice, but I was already working full time, cooking, cleaning, raising the kids, etc. What else is there to do? Nothing helped.

    So, I have no good advice. I think your wife and your friends wives have been unalterably changed by their experience growing up the the Mormon church and the only choice is to either live in agony or DTNFFA (Thank you Dan Savage– Dump the Non Father F*er already.)

    Sue for custody of the kids. She’s the one threatening; she doesn’t like sex, it’s not going to change; find some nice convert not raised Mormon (or Evangelical) and the live the rest of your life happily.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 9:04 am

  111. Posts like these make me appreciate my marriage.
    It seems that this is about more than just sex. There seems to be a lack of trust, a lack of understanding, and a lack of love here too.
    I think, in general, that men need sex like women need emotional support from their husbands, and women need sex like men need emotional support from their wives. The needs are real, and both parties need both, but men might need a little more sex and women might need a little more emotional support.
    Talk to your wife about seeing a counselor. Let her pick one out, if she likes. And then go to the sessions with an attitude of “what can I do to change myself and our relationship” instead of “what can she do.”

    Comment by Tim — January 9, 2009 @ 9:05 am

  112. Apogee,

    Thanks for the post and the follow-up comments. I’ve enjoyed the discussion and have only one suggestion for all participating.

    Do not bring Paul into your bedroom. Paul paints with far too broad a brush to apply to the nuances of individual sexual relationships.

    Comment by adam e. — January 9, 2009 @ 9:11 am

  113. I think Apogee’s point is totally about sex. Everything else is a distraction. I’ve been there, and I’m female.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 9:23 am

  114. Good morning and I read all the comments. I am continually amazed at the depth and breadth of knowledge on fmh and the willingness to carry the discourse forward.

    I. am. a. woman. who. needs. sex. Like I need oxygen, diet coke, and new shoes.

    Make it a great Friday.

    Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 9, 2009 @ 9:23 am

  115. A tiny bit more info; I’m guessing that Apogee (love the handle, btw) married a woman that didn’t find him sexually exciting. No amount of diaper-changing is going to change this. That spark, if missing, ugh.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 9:28 am

  116. I mostly agree with you, and if everyone who was having a problem with this went to a counselor… well… all most everyone would be going to a counselor at some point.

    Some women like and need sex, some don’t, and some can never orgasm. But it’s different for men. The longest time my wife and I went without sex (which wasn’t too long in the big scheme of things), I was feeling irritable and irrational. My wife noticed it had been happening for the last few days and was the first to suggest lack of sex as a cause. Men need sex. I heard a story through the grape vine, that a bishop once advised a man to get divorced because his wife had 100% refused to have sex from the start of the marriage. Just as women have emotional needs that must be met, men have physical needs (and the other way around). In marriage, you have to compromise and meet each others’ needs. I favor the dish-doing approach.

    Comment by Jon — January 9, 2009 @ 9:28 am

  117. There has to be some kind of trade-off, doesn’t there? Women say yes to sex, men say yes to polite requests to help the children, clean up the house, fix things.

    Comment by Michelle Glauser — January 9, 2009 @ 9:37 am

  118. I hope this isn’t too garbled, my mind isn’t terribly focused right now, but I thought I might share my feelings on the subject. Sex is a need for men. I get that. It’s not much different from eating or sleeping. It’s part of their physiology. So, let’s compare it to eating.

    When you are hungry and need to eat, you do whatever is necessary to get food, right? You’ll cook, or at least drive to the nearest fast-food store. In order to do either of those things, you have to know how. If you don’t know how to cook anything, you’ll learn so you can meet the need to eat. Why should sex be different?

    Because you need sex, you should be willing to learn what you need to do to fulfill that need.

    The complication arises from the fact that in order to have sex righteously, it must involve another thinking, feeling person in possession of agency. It can’t be any other person, it has to be the person with whom you have made covenants to work with and love for eternity. So, what is it you need to do to get sex? It’s not an easy one-answer-fits-all, each woman is different. What needs does SHE have in her life that are not being met? What would she like done that would make her actually want sex, be turned on to it? She may not even know herself, which is why patience and counseling can help. That being said, not all counseling is created equal, many counselors, even LDS ones, don’t have the skills to truly help people discover their own needs.

    So, you need to focus on her, help her discover what needs she has that aren’t being met. Often, women may feel that the only way they can cry for help to meet their needs is to withhold the one power they sort of have: sex. It’s often the first thing that matters to men. I suspect she’s crying out for that help. It may be that couching sex in terms only of meeting your needs is the very thing that is turning her off to it.

    Yes, your needs are legitimate, but so are hers. If you let her know that it is an emotional need, not just a physical one, that you don’t know how to fulfill it, but that you are willing to forgo that need for now to try to help her mend whatever is broken in her heart, you will show her that you truly care about HER, not only about what role she has in your life. Tell her that you didn’t realize how she must be hurting and feeling. Plead with her to help you help her, to discover whatever you can do to support and cherish her. Pray with her. Focus on her. Even a little of that might go a long way, it depends on what is hurting her.

    Christ was willing to give up His own weariness to serve those who wanted healing, try to do your best to do the same. You can’t change her, but you can serve her. Perhaps, when you show her how you are willing to serve her and meet her needs, she will be able to overcome her own misgivings to meet yours.

    But do it either way, whether she can serve you or not, and you will start to feel charity for your wife and the love of God will bless your home. It’s not a matter of who is right and who is wrong, it’s a matter of loving and cherishing whether or not she is right, of forgiving her faults (even in this). Pray and fast for the Spirit’s guidance and for the power of the Savior to heal you of your hurt at her behavior.

    Letting go of your needs is sometimes the only way to get them fulfilled, but don’t do it like a recipe that will spit out a perfect cake at the end. Do it because you really want her to be happy and healed.

    Comment by SilverRain — January 9, 2009 @ 9:47 am

  119. Out trip down this road took place after I got pregnant with our son. I was increadibly sick, had a horrible pregnancy, and then during the delivery I had to have an emergency C-section and face the very real chance of dying. I became resistive to my husband’s advances because I was so scared of going down that path again. I felt that I was risking my life trying to fulfill his sexual needs. It hurt because I felt like he was picking himself over me. I felt that he would rather have his desire fulfilled than to have me in his life. Deep down I felt like he was trying to kill me. It took me a while to peice all of this together, and it was painfull to tell it to my husband. Imagine having to tell a kind loving man that you felt like he was trying to kill you, it wasn’t easy. But, it helped he now realizes the mixed emotions I have about sex. On the one hand I do have a desire to be intimate with him and to share that experience, on the other hand, I don’t want to loose my life in pregnancy.
    That being said, I’ve found that my love life improves a lot when I take care of myself. I am by nature a stressed out boderline obsessive compulsive, but I’ve learned that leaving the lunch dishes on the table after I get the kids down for a nap and reading a good book or taking a nap or doing a hobby really helps my disposition. I also have to work myself up for it. I start out in the morning preparing to attack my husband when the kids are finally asleep. It’s been along time getting to this point. By the way, good post. I think a lot of people struggle with this.

    Comment by anonymous — January 9, 2009 @ 9:49 am

  120. My brother is a “SEX CAMEL”. He gave up on sex after years of dealing with a spouse who used it as leverage.

    Comment by Scott — January 9, 2009 @ 9:51 am

  121. Hey, SilverRain, I think Apogee’s wife has made it clear that her preference is “no,” and that not respecting that make Apogee a sinner, a sexual deviant. They have moved way beyond your advice, which, otherwise, for someone else, strikes me as wonderful.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 9:55 am

  122. Djinn—I don’t think they have. What you describe are the barriers put up because they haven’t been respecting each others’ needs. And remember, we know the story only from his perspective, and he doesn’t know what has been going on in her head, only what he THINKS is going on in her head. If Apogee can make the first step, those barriers may break down. It’s not guaranteed, but it’s still a chance.

    Comment by SilverRain — January 9, 2009 @ 9:59 am

  123. Excellent comments, but I have to address one minor thing from #101 - a terrific comment overall:

    I think the church does such an excellent job of telling kids and young single adults NO NO NO sex, that it’s naughty, it’s dirty, and only bad people want sex,

    The Church doesn’t teach that and never has. I have close friends who were taught that by their parents and some local church leaders. That is an unfortunate by-product of the apostasy that too many members can’t escape, but the Church doesn’t teach it.

    Sorry to nit-pick, but it’s a soapbox.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 10:31 am

  124. Could it be a medical problem causing a low sex drive? Would she go to the doc and get treatment? Just as there is viagra to help men with certain physcial problems…emm there are medical treatments for low female libido.

    Comment by A.J. — January 9, 2009 @ 10:38 am

  125. Christ was willing to give up His own weariness to serve those who wanted healing, try to do your best to do the same. You can’t change her, but you can serve her. Perhaps, when you show her how you are willing to serve her and meet her needs, she will be able to overcome her own misgivings to meet yours.

    Well, after a night’s sleep I read this post, and it reflects a conversation I had with DW an hour ago. Someone else mentioned emotional connection. I asked my wife if I made a quest to be more spiritual, REALLY guided by the Spirit instead of checking boxes, would that enhance our emotional relationship. (I did not even mention sex, btw). Stunned silence, and then she said, in so many words, “Duh.”

    If it’s that easy, sign me up. Maybe I have not been the charitable one here. I am willing to accept that, and will hope and assume that over time we will bond in new ways that will resolve the sex issues in a wave of other solutions.

    But, let’s assume to the contrary, so we can discuss the metaissue. There are men out there that are better than me, that are better priesthood holders, that are just good men. What do we say to them? Go back to my original post. What is the solution?

    I understand the contextual problems with Pauline advice. But if we chuck his advice, what do we have?

    I want to venture something. I told my wife this morning, as we cried, that my goal for us was to get in each other’s way trying to hold the door for each other. That is love. I have enough faith in her that if I agree to shoulder my duty as a father and leader in our home (she tells me this is her deep desire), she will reach out to me. I think she feels cheated that she did “hold the door” for me for years, and I took without giving back. Time to pay the piper.

    I will say that for those men out there whose wives will not hold the door first, it makes it harder–much harder. Husbands behave much better when they get sex. (Oooh–that sounded crass, but it’s true). And it is a very simple way to jump-start a path to a more fulfilling partnership. This is especially true in the extreme examples I mentioned in the first post.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 10:43 am

  126. Apogee, your candor and eloqence has me paralyzed with pain. That’s what took so long to comment. I have been on both sides of the issue. Married twice. A convert, who happened to have previously lived with a man (who I married) and had two other lovers (in the secular world, described as serial monogomous sexual relationships). My first fiance was my life-long friend and a Marine ( I was Army), killed in a car crash on base- but we were sexually active prior to marriage- and I was 5 weeks pregant when he was killed, making preparations to wed. I also lost the baby.
    I share these things in the interest of self-disclosure and context, since a religious person could possibly dismiss my experience as profligacy- but then, so was Paul’s, before the road to Damascus. I’m definitely not your average Molly…and a nurse by profession, who has heard just about everything from all sides of an issue.

    >Control- that’s the outward sign,or solution to the etiology- lack of power. You say you have a lot of kids. Your wife’s life entails a lot of sacrifice that she may only be understanding the exact nature of now. You provide. She depends. No power. You are military- she can’t decide when she needs you or where you both go, it’s decided for her. No power. She has to hold the fort, do without you- you may or not come back or cheat while she waits. The needs of the country prevail. She buries her need for you because she’s in survival mode. No power.
    You come home, hold all the cards and now, she has to let down all the barriers she’s erected to get by- raising kids is her job and you need sex to have those, but that’s done, so sex has become arbitrary on that front. It’s become her sole source of power…the one NO she actually has. She may have been compromising on the frequency that was always way too much for her, but she caved on that for years too. She may be asserting the one preference she’s got left.
    Just sayin’. Could be totally off base.

    >It could also be more mundane. Kids suck you emotionally dry some days. Multiple kids increase that risk. It’s a whole different kind of tired. I’m a high libido woman, and I can say, there were plenty of nights I prefered sleep to sex. Catch me in the afternoon and I’m good to go. After 9pm, and even Mel Gibson can take a hike…wait, no, I’ll dream about sex instead.

    >Sex frequency was 2-4 times a week in marriage #1. To this day, he says we were highly sexually compatible and it had nothing to do with his affair. He worked too much and I felt trapped at home with small children. He devolved into a jerk, had an affair with a 20 year old, willowy blond and accrued debt I didn’t discover until we divorced. Despite this obvious emotional disconnect, we continued a mutually satisfying sexual pattern until he moved out. Even though he was emotionally distant, sex just happened to be the one thing that worked for us and we both needed it. Nothing else did…although, if I’d known about the charge accounts,

    >My best friend died after I had personally cared for her for two years. I had a bout of depression during my grief that stripped my libido away. Nothing. Two years and I went through the motions, for the sake of my husband, because I didn’t think it was fair not to have sex. Two years of feeling invaded, albeit with my consent. Two years of hiding the fact I could have done without. I do know that sex is a need. I also understand that it can hurt a lot to have it when you don’t want it. My mother is terminally ill. While my libido is good, I’m finding sex more exhausting than usual because my emotional batteries are low. It brings down my survival barriers and I usually cry afterward (great finish, huh?). My dh is a night owl and I’m an early bird- it has created a timing issue in the sex life, rather than the willingness.

    >Sex, by design, is an act of physical surrender for a woman. Even though I am a rather assertive bedmate- even a tad aggressive, the final act of penetration is an invasion…even if it’s by invitation- that’s why it’s so devastating to be raped. It’s a perspective to bear in mind. Because…if you two are fighting about sex, her body has become the spoils. To the victor goes the spoils … without realizing it consciously, every time she ends up on her back, she’s been conquered. Possibly making for a heady encounter for you but somewhat akin to being crushed by the heel of a boot for her. If this is such a bone of contention for the two of you, even foreplay could feel like the preparations for the Omaha beach landing for her. If she’s conceded much of her life in favor of your goals, your career, life as you have defined it, then you are dealing with Custer’s last stand. Trouble is, we all know what happened to Custer.

    Apogee, you sound like a loving husband and a smart man. Sex is a need - for some, more insistent than others, just as sleep requirements vary. (One of my lovers thought I was a nymphomaniac because I wanted sex more than once a week.) You sound like a great couple. Get thee to a good therapist, because you are both too upset to do this alone.

    Comment by Kimberly — January 9, 2009 @ 10:45 am

  127. Kimberly:

    Thou art a zephyr in the even.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 10:49 am

  128. Ahem…
    If I’d know about the charge accounts, I would have thrown him out sooner.

    Comment by Kimberly — January 9, 2009 @ 10:52 am

  129. As a woman, I have never understood women who do not want sex. Sexual intercourse is a natural human desire. Regular sexual intimacy is a vital part of a marriage. The second sex is withheld or used as a weapon, the marital bond has been weakened.

    The way I see it, your wife is asking you to financially meet all of her needs without question, but you are not allowed to have your needs met. That is the epitome of selfishness and unChristlike behavior. How would she respond if you said to her that you only felt like supporting her half of the time?

    Based on what you have stated, I think that your needs are actually a bit on the low side. A healthy relationship would likely entail more physical intimacy than your stated amounts.

    I can appreciate your quandry about staying in an unfulfilling marriage for the sake of your children. When young children are involved, there is a concern that the stress of a divorce can have a negative impact on them. At the same time though, if your marriage reaches the point where it negatively impacts your ability to be the best dad that you can be when you are with the children, you will want to revisit what is in the best interest of your children. That is a personal decision that you will have to reach based on the specifics of your situation.

    I am not sure what your personal views on masturbation are. That may relieve some of the physical frustration that you can have as a result of the lack of marital intimacy. Obviously that won’t be as good as “the real thing”, but releasing the physical pressure may allow you to focus more clearly on the emotional aspects of this marriage that are clearly out of synch. Of course, if you personally do not feel that masturbation is appropriate, you should not do that, as that will result in unhealthy feelings of conflict and resentment.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 9, 2009 @ 10:57 am

  130. Apogee, I think this problem is much simpler than you have stated. You and your wife love each other very dearly, but your wife doesn’t like to have sex with you. Uhhh, you’re what? 40’s? All the tears and, as you specifically called out –EMOTIONAL– connection is not going to help. Perhaps you should just make a conscious vow, like Catholic priests do, and just give up sex.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 10:58 am

  131. 45 is not dead. 45 is healthy, active, and very much alive sexually.

    I should know. ;)

    Comment by Mary Magdalene — January 9, 2009 @ 11:06 am

  132. Apogee, I think this problem is much simpler than you have stated. You and your wife love each other very dearly, but your wife doesn’t like to have sex with you. Uhhh, you’re what? 40’s? All the tears and, as you specifically called out –EMOTIONAL– connection is not going to help. Perhaps you should just make a conscious vow, like Catholic priests do, and just give up sex.

    djinn–

    Whoa, you so don’t get it. I left the Catholic Church, and a good friend of mine left the Catholic priesthood, because those teachings are beyond wrong. They are aberrant. Let me take your logic to its conclusion. I don’t like changing diapers, or grocery shopping, or, hell, working a lot. So I should tell my wife to do it all herself and deal with reduced income.
    Unacceptable? Certainly. Your recoiling that this suggestion is founded on an ethical compass that recognizes a team approach to creating a good family. Until you recognize that sex for a man (and many women) is as fundamental as these other obligations that society ethically imposes (maintenance, nurturing), you will continue to advocate a dysfunctional position.

    I am disturbed that you advocate my making an aberrant choice in the face of what you regard as an immovable and nonnormative circumstance (lack of desire, or lack of willingness). You assume that her conduct is normal, or static. Not so. She chose to marry, and that means she chose to have a sexual relationship. Her dynamic state, and her accountability, is just as fluid as mine in this equation.

    Please note that I never said my wife has no desire.

    You did. I have hope that other things I am doing wrong–and can change–will improve things. But if I did everything I could and her willingness waned, I would not do as you say. I would divorce and move on, as some of you have advocated as a possibility.

    Consider the dichotomy this presents. djinn advocates staying in a marriage but being celibate. I say end the marriage. Which is worse? In both cases, the marriage is over. In the latter, a new beginning is possible. Do the math.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 11:20 am

  133. 45 is not dead. 45 is healthy, active, and very much alive sexually.

    I should know. ;-)

    Yup.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 11:22 am

  134. Apogee, I have been, unwillingly, divorced, with children. It just about killed me. That’s not metaphorical. I understand what is involved. I think you should read my comment at #109, and then re-read my comment to you at #129.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 11:26 am

  135. To put it directly, I think you and your wife have unreconcilable differences, which she has made absolutely clear. So, you need to start at that position. Leave. Take off. As a man with the money you have leverage. Move next door. Sue for custody. Find someone you’re sexually compatible with. I am not the only woman on the planet who can barely survive without sex. Or, live with the status quo–life sucks; what can I say.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 11:30 am

  136. She has admitted she has never liked sleeping with you. It’s not going to change. With her. Plus, Paul said many things I’m sure you’re happlily willing to ignore. Or do you insist that your wife cover her head in church, keep quiet, etc.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 11:33 am

  137. Apogee, your post has been insightful and loving and I hope that you and your DW are able to make it all work out. You sound like a wonderful husband and father.

    I am recently divorced and I identify a bit with your wife and her feelings, during the time I was married. What would have helped? Well, I think you both may have figured it out (post # 123).

    In my case, I felt like it was expected, unromantic, and therefore a chore. I didn’t want it to be a chore. At least not every single time. I wanted (and needed) some of the lovey gushy stuff that comes with it, at least every once in a while. I was willing to try to balance it and make the compromise. Romance me a bit more often, and we’ll fool around more often. But we had so many other problems, this one never got the chance to be resolved.

    Best wishes to you and your DW.

    Comment by Ladybug — January 9, 2009 @ 11:39 am

  138. djinn–
    Would you have vowed to be celibate? Or did you divorce to avoid that fate? Or were there other issues (abuse, etc.), that pushed you over the edge (lack of sex was not enough by itself)?

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 11:40 am

  139. Apogee –

    I appreciate that using my medical condition as a substitute for the sexual norm would amount to poor inductive reasoning. That’s not what I was attempting, though it was late and I was sleepy so perhaps it seemed that way. Rather, I was trying to point towards the idea that *many* such circumstances exist, and within the norm. Mine just works well for dramatic effect in illustrating the notion that sometimes “asking nicely” isn’t asking nicely at all, considering other circumstances. And if a guy doesn’t ask when he shouldn’t be asking, a wife won’t be refusing, now will she? And vice versa, because plenty of women have stronger sex drives than their husbands (oh stop it–they do too). It takes savvy, honesty, and sacrifice from BOTH partners. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not happy about the limits on our sex life any more than is my hubby: the point is that we work together to satisfy both person’s needs in selfless ways which are not masochistic.

    Well, that and a reiteration of the obvious point towards others have wildly gestured: if a woman or man is refusing their partner sex, they probably don’t enjoy sex. If they don’t enjoy sex, either 1) the other partner is a lousy lover or t2) the “frigid” one has underlying issues which require treatment which extends past suffering through what ought to be a pleasant and fun activity, or 3) a combination of the two or 4) they simply have different sex drives requiring the sort of compromise you and your wife discussed. Redundancy department of redundancy, amen.

    Also, as an avid Star Trek fan, I advise you that Shatnerian allusions will kill any and all eros in any room besides a Trekkie convention :) .

    Comment by Janet — January 9, 2009 @ 11:42 am

  140. Apogee,

    Obviously you are in pain over this. I also believe that ideally marriages should have lots of sex. 2-5 times a week. Maybe twice on Sunday. This is an ideal though and not everybody fits the ideal

    I would really like to hear her side of the story before commenting though. There are always 2 sides to everything and one of the problems with this type of post is that the other side is missing.

    Your kids need their Dad in their home. I would make that my top priority if I was you. Make whatever compromises you need to make with your wife over sex.

    Comment by bbell — January 9, 2009 @ 11:44 am

  141. Ok, really, last thing: wanted to again note that you and your DW sound like you’re approaching this in exactly the sort of way which WILL lead to happy-if-not-facile resolution, and that’s admirable and rare. Very good luck to you! I’d wager the issue remains in “seethingland” for most couples.

    Comment by Janet — January 9, 2009 @ 11:46 am

  142. She should only have to do it when she feels like it.

    She wants you to LOVE her! She wants you to ADORE her! She wants you to tell her how you thought of her constantly while you were away. She wants you to bring her little things that say you were thinking only of her.

    She wants you to quote scriptures while staring into her eyes, telling her that she is the goddess of your world. She wants you to make her weak in the knees. She wants you to tell her how cute she looks in those jeans (she wants to hear that 10 times) She wants you to stop talking about how many times you have had sex in the last month, to brush her hair 100 times and to be jealous of the guy who looked at her in the grocery store.

    You make her the center of your world and she will make you the center of hers.

    She WANTS you to make her feel like it.

    (…or maybe that was ME I was thinking of…)

    Comment by Bored in Vernal — January 9, 2009 @ 11:47 am

  143. kimberly, promise you will never leave us? promise.

    Comment by mfranti — January 9, 2009 @ 11:50 am

  144. …pinky swear it!

    Comment by mfranti — January 9, 2009 @ 11:51 am

  145. My ex divorced me. It was not my choice. I just gritted my teeth and bore it through the sexless spells. I am monogamous by nature, it turns out, so I was never tempted, even the slightest, to cheat. I think, though I do not know, that he felt about me like your wife feels about you. Plus, (evil, perhaps verging on bitter, laugh) he, uh, not having other experience, didn’t know what he had. The kids are fine.

    Would I have vowed to be celibate? If it had come to that I would have left, eventually, I suspect. My body just goes nuts when I don’t have sex, and there is nothing I can do about it, which like I mentioned makes me wonder about sex addiction, as I don’t act out; I’m just seriously miserable–from what you have said, I suspect we are very similar that way. Celibate? I couldn’t do that to myself.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 11:54 am

  146. I realize I am coming in late to this, and I haven’t read all the comments, so maybe this was addressed…… but I really think that sticking to Paul for hard fast rules about sex is a little bit, um…. horrible. Remember, this is the same guy who said women should be silent in church, and that slaves should obey their masters. I don’t think we have to accept all of his social commentary as inspired.

    As far as women never being able to refuse, I wholeheartedly disagree. If I felt like I had to have sex no matter what, every time my husband wanted it, it would quickly become a battle ground, a place where I felt I had to exert my autonomy and independence. My husband and I are very flexible. Sometimes I tell him no. Sometimes he tells me no. More often, we just get the other worked up so that we’re both in the mood. Honestly, your attitude towards women’s “obligations” regarding sex are a huge, huge turn-off. I would be appalled if I discovered that my husband felt I owed him sex, and I can’t even tell you the disgust I would feel if he pulled out scripture on me to that effect. Is this the verse you are referring to? “4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.”

    If you think that gives you a right to expect sex whenever you “need” it, I think you are way off base. The wife has control of your body too, see? So if we are talking about obligations and control and responsibility, then she has just as much right to deny sex to you as you do to ask for it. Using the scriptures in this manner, honestly, is just silly, manipulative, and circuitous. It’s not healthy.

    Sex is a beautiful thing that we share to EXPRESS OUR LOVE. If it became the symbol of our problems, that would completely change how I felt about it. I would not want to have sex ever if I felt like it was an expectation of my wifely duties, and that I was somehow obeying my husband in doing it.

    Is it possible to embrace a teaching that men do indeed need sex, and that in a proper Christian spirit (primarily from the man) women can accommodate that need without being disgruntled?

    You can keep insisting on this point of yours; OR, you can listen to all the women who have posted here saying that your attitude towards sex does not strike them as healthy or loving. You can say it is all you want…. but if your wife doesn’t feel it, you’re talking to empty air. You might fervently believe your desires and expectations are respectful and loving…. but in the end, if your wife doesn’t feel that they are, then they’re not. If they don’t make her feel loved and respected, then they’re not loving and respectful.

    Sorry, I understand that your feelings are sincere, and that your emotions have been seriously hurt. But the way you talk about sex and your wife’s “responsibilities” just really, really rubbed me the wrong way. I’m sure your wife has picked up on the same vibes herself.

    Oh, and #49, Starfoxy — Exactly!!!!!! I agree 10000% Apogee, every single line in her post is right on.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 9, 2009 @ 11:59 am

  147. Re: 122

    This thread kept me awake last night thinking about the current situation in our home right now. Dh is undergoing treatment for a condition that requires suppression of all male hormones for a period of 4-6 months. We knew it was coming and so we “stocked up” on sex for a month ahead of time. Two months into the treatment now and we have both had some real eye-opening revelations.

    1. Although we are unable at this time to actually enjoy the sex act,the intimacy we share has gone through the roof. The ability to cuddle for hours at a time and just enjoy the closeness without even the remote possibility of intercourse is entirely different.
    2.. It is a scary thing to know that sex might not happen again, ever. But thanks to modern medicine and those little blue pills (if needed) we are confident that all will return to normal.
    3. I love waking up in the middle of the night and reaching for his hand to hold or spooning to get warm. In the past this might have been interpreted as an invitaion. Now it is simply an “I Love You”.
    4. That morning *poke*poke*poke* in the back while I am still asleep is something that I do not miss at all. Sisters, you know what I’m talking about and brothers, you are all guilty of this.

    We have had many frank discussions about sex recently, along with some good laughter. Last night I asked him if he thought the hormone treatments had directly eliminated his desire for sex or if the inability to have sex had affected the desire. His answer was that the desire just wasn’t there. Interestingly, this treatment has brought a few other changes to him emotionally but I won’t go into them here.

    I am in my 50’s (re: 129) and am not prepared to permantly give up my sex life. But I must admit that I am enjoying the respite, along with the discoveries that this experience is bringing to our marriage.

    Apogee, my heart goes out to you. I support the idea of counseling as well as a good medical checkup. Those hormones had cause all kinds of havoc on an otherwise wonderful marriage.

    Comment by the sleeping nun — January 9, 2009 @ 12:00 pm

  148. http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/12/23/when_a_woman_isnt_in_the_mood_part_i“>
    12/31/08
    http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/12/23/when_a_woman_isnt_in_the_mood_part_i
    http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2008/12/30/when_a_woman_isnt_in_the_mood_part_ii

    Two very interesting and appropriate links. Do be aware of his caveats. The men he refers to in this article are good men. He isn’t referring to men who have significant moral and emotional issues.

    In spite of protests to the contrary most women have a lower libido than most men. Its natural and it is actually good.

    By the same token most men have a lower nesting instinct than women. This is also good. He does need to leave the nest to provide for the family. A man yields to his wife’s nesting instinct. i.e. he doesn’t golf and hunt and play basketball every spare minute of the day. If he does he is no good. A really good man doesn’t just yield, he takes an active role in enhancing the nest. He picks up his socks, he clears the table he bathes kids, he cuddles, he suggests chick flicks to see or rent etc. (Don’t go overboard.)

    A woman yields to a man’s needs for affection and a good woman actively offers affection and acknowledges her happiness in the receipt of affection returned.

    In the process of sacrificing our natures to our spouses we can become truly happy. It is a two way street.

    Comment by aloysiusmiller — January 9, 2009 @ 12:05 pm

  149. re: 148

    correction to last sentence: Those hormones *can* cause all kinds of havoc…

    and please don’t give up on a wife that you truly love. Divorce, although sometimes necessary, is traumatic for all involved, especially those little children.

    Comment by the sleeping nun — January 9, 2009 @ 12:09 pm

  150. If my husband couldn’t have slept with me because of a medical condition, I would have just dealt (the celibacy option.) That’s part of the promise you make when you marry. The problem comes when one partner opts out, because to quote “you’re not as young and thin as you were when we married.” PS at the time if I gave you my measurements, you probably wouldn’t believe me, but I was admittedly older and heavier. What do you do?

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 12:12 pm

  151. I know a lot of married women having a lot of sex, and a lot of women who want more than they’re getting. Apogee, I think you wildly stereotype women’s libidos, and the fact that you see this as a pervasive trend may have more to do with the sex-role attitudes of you and your friends than about people generally.

    Also, I’ve been on both sides of the fence with this one. Sex that you don’t enjoy is incredibly unpleasant. It’s intrusive, not just boring but excruciating. Your wife doesn’t enjoy sex with you, and I would start by trying to make it better for her. One of the results of living chastely and monogamously is that it can give you a narrow view of sexual experience. It doesn’t have to be that way, of course, but I think when you have more than one partner/marriage/relationship you are exposed to new things along the way, and when you don’t live that way you need to make an effort to grow sexually, try new things, read, learn, experiment, etc. You can totally do this within a chaste context with a willing spouse, but it takes some doing from both of you. I am not trying to be mean, but I wonder if you and your friends are really providing satisfying sexual experiences to your wives, and/or if that has been a real priority for you all these years. It isn’t an innate skill.

    Also, I second the recommendation for counseling. It can really help.

    Comment by Rory — January 9, 2009 @ 12:16 pm

  152. I think StillConfused in #127 is onto something.

    If you and your wife simply have uneven libidos, perhaps you could, um, take care of your own needs from time to time, if necessary to bridge the gaps. That way, sex isn’t so much about satiating your physical needs. But you’d probably want to get a feel for your wife’s feelings about masturbation first.

    You might also consider focusing on sensuality and intimacy, rather than merely sex (for the time being, anyway). Some books suggest having intimate sessions where the goal is not necessarily intercourse (taking a bath together, massaging one another, etc.). These experiences build intimacy and provide for physical closeness, but aren’t as laden with baggage as sex sometimes is. They can also be building-blocks for a new, more comfortable, and more fulfilling sex life.

    Personally, I don’t think sex should be about bargaining and negotiation. Nor do I think that one spouse should have to submit to the other whenever the “need” arises (I don’t think Paul was an expert on human sexuality). But those are only my own feelings.

    Comment by Steve M — January 9, 2009 @ 12:16 pm

  153. Sorry, that’s StillConfused in #129 (this comment).

    Comment by Steve M — January 9, 2009 @ 12:17 pm

  154. Apogee, if you take the nuclear option, talk to an attorney first before any word to the wife; tell, discretely, your side to those nearest and dearest using whatever euphemisms required. If she is like my ex, (i truly believe that there are not that many types of people) she will go ballistic. So, tread carefully. Your kids will survive. Don’t say anything bad about their mom to them, just continue being your sweet self. Or, accede to her non-desires.

    Comment by djinn — January 9, 2009 @ 12:18 pm

  155. A few observations for Apogee:

    My first marriage ended because of sex. My former wife (”Ann”) was molested by her stepfather as a young girl. When she and I married, everything was just great for the first several months — and then she started having flashbacks to the molestation, typically while we were making love. We sought counseling right away and continued to seek counseling through the decade or so of our marriage. There were a few upticks along the way, but the general trend was downwards; for the last few years we were married, we made love once, maybe twice a month. (I would have been thrilled with once a week, so try to keep some perspective, Apogee.)

    More devastating, though, was the fact that Ann didn’t welcome any physical affection — hugging, kissing, touching, and so on — since she saw all such affection as leading to sex. I loved her dearly (and she loved me!), she was a very attractive woman, and she had no problem wandering around me in various states of undress. I trained myself to sleep on my left side, facing away from her, lest I accidentally touch her while we were sleeping. During the last year or two of our marriage, I often slept in the La-Z-Boy recliner out in the living room instead.

    Note in all this that Ann loved me as well, and all of our friends and family members felt we had the perfect marriage. We married in the temple, we had children together, and my personal mantra was that somewhere between now and the eternities, things had to get better. I worked very hard at being a good husband and father, at loving and supporting Ann (I was a ‘house-husband’ for the last part of our marriage), and at not protecting myself emotionally (i.e., reciprocal or punative emotional withdrawal, etc.).

    So it was pretty devastating when Ann came and told me that it was time for the marriage to end. It was as amicable, as loving a divorce as you could ask for — it only took us an hour with a divorce mediator to lay out property division, alimony, child support and custody — but the divorce was nonetheless wretched. A quarter of a century later, I am still haunted by the silent tears running down our 5-year-old’s cheeks as Ann and I tried to explain to our children that our marriage was ending. For my own part, I felt as though I had failed at the most important role in my life. I loved Ann with all my heart, wanted to be with her forever, and wanted to raise my kids full time, not on a shared custody basis. I hurt so much I wanted to die.

    Since that day, I never have and never will counsel someone to get a divorce. I know that it is sometimes the best option (as it may well have been in our case), but I have seen the damage that it causes, particularly in my own children. Even though I have been blissfully married for 20+ years to a wonderful woman (”Becky”), with whom I have been happier than I ever was with Ann, if I had some way of going back 25 years, waving a wand, and preserving the marriage with Ann, I would — not because I miss Ann, but because of the children.

    What is interesting is that a few years ago, Ann — who remarried, divorced after several years (not because of sexual issues, but because of emotional abuse), and then remarried again — said in effect the same thing to me. She said that she wonders now if she was too hasty in asking to end our marriage. She got past her sexual issues in her second marriage, even though her (now ex-)husband was from the start a rather wretched husband (she told me that she almost had that marriage annulled in the first month, but having gone through one divorce, she didn’t want to jump into another). She said that she wished that she knew back then what she knew now, and that if she had, she never would have asked for the divorce.

    Long post, I know, but the point is: both sides need to work hard to work these issues out. Don’t think that divorce will be an ‘easy’ solution; it won’t.

    Comment by perigee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:21 pm

  156. 4. That morning *poke*poke*poke* in the back while I am still asleep is something that I do not miss at all. Sisters, you know what I’m talking about and brothers, you are all guilty of this.

    Laughing so hard I’m having incontinence issues…but, please, sleeping nun, speak for yourself. I personally take full advantage of this tendency- I consider it a strategic advantage!

    Comment by Kimberly — January 9, 2009 @ 12:51 pm

  157. Divorce does suck. I don’t want to do it. We’ll see.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 12:53 pm

  158. I know a lot of married women having a lot of sex, and a lot of women who want more than they’re getting. Apogee, I think you wildly stereotype women’s libidos, and the fact that you see this as a pervasive trend may have more to do with the sex-role attitudes of you and your friends than about people generally.

    Wow. You must have a lot of open discussions with lots of people to know so much about their intimate lives. I opened up on this issue for the first time to close ecclesiastical leaders, and imagine my shock when they told me that I was telling them their story (they are actually in worse shape). I don’t go around talking about the issue, and I had imagined that I was alone. I never suspected what I would find.

    Now, you can say that I am stereotyping, but until 48 hours ago, the opposite was true. I thought that my wife’s attitude was atypical. Now I find this to be true–for the opposite reason. She is actually more willing than what I am discovering elsewhere.

    You suggest I assume too much. But if one goes in the desert full of rocks, and starts to look under those rocks, and the first three rocks all have scorpions under them, I think it’s safe to assume that there is a large preponderance of scorpions under the rocks (I love scorpion hunting with my kids–creeps us out in a fun way).

    I don’t go around prying into others’ sex lives. I looked for advice, and got unexpected commiseration. My cohort is not homogeneous nor reflective of my norms or status (we run the gamut). I do think what I have described is a problem out there that needs creative solutions. It is not a stereotype shibboleth born of misogyny.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:04 pm

  159. Wow. You must have a lot of open discussions with lots of people to know so much about their intimate lives.

    Honestly, Apogee, yeah. I talk about sex with other women all the time. Seriously. I know a shocking amount of information about some friends’ sex lives. :)

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 9, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

  160. Some thoughts on “needing”:
    1. Your wife being the place where you “need” to evacuate your little factory is so unromantic.
    2. If you “need” sex, but you only “want” your wife to be happy, your priorities are out of order.
    3. Needing sex is far less productive then “desiring” your wife- your whole wife, mind, body and spirit.

    Please try to need your wife and kids.

    Comment by Hildegard — January 9, 2009 @ 1:11 pm

  161. If you and your wife simply have uneven libidos, perhaps you could, um, take care of your own needs from time to time, if necessary to bridge the gaps. That way, sex isn’t so much about satiating your physical needs. But you’d probably want to get a feel for your wife’s feelings about masturbation first.

    We have had this discussion in the context of sparing our sons the burden of thinking masturbation is a mortal sin. We counsel against it, but tell them it’s not a big Thing. We don’t need a dead teenager on top of everything else.

    I am confident she would view it, in me, as a violation of my covenant to have her and only her. Sweet irony, huh? Me and only me . . . but, when and only when I say.

    I know their are forums here that deal with the little “m”, and that Church doctrine on this issue is more than fractured. But that would just complicate things right now.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:14 pm

  162. I keep trying to post, but my comment isn’t showing up. Then when I try again, it says I’m posting a duplicate comment. :(

    This might not even appear on here, though, so blah.

    Comment by Just Someone — January 9, 2009 @ 1:16 pm

  163. Oh, of course. That’s the one that shows up.

    *Long breath*

    Computers.

    Comment by Just Someone — January 9, 2009 @ 1:17 pm

  164. natalie, amongst my blog friends, i’d have to agree with you.

    they talk more about s*x and are much more comfortable with it in general so i could make the same assumption about all women, couldn’t i?

    but attempting to have the same kinds of talks with my lds church mates, brings on a totally different response.

    we are talking (imo) totally different types of people.

    remember, if it were so easy talk about s*x , enjoy s*x , look forward to s*x amongst women in lds culture, our posts on the subject wouldn’t be so full of painful anonymous commenters.

    Comment by mfranti — January 9, 2009 @ 1:18 pm

  165. re: #127 and #152

    That would be a typical secular solution to the problem of mismatched libidos: select a frequency that your wife is okay with, and then supplement with masturbation. It’s not ideal, but it’s probably better than each partner resenting the other (thinking the other partner is just being selfish and inconsiderate).

    This solution might not work for Mormon couples who see masturbation as infidelity and as a grave sin, but, again, there’s weighing that against resenting one another. I started a discussion of marital masturbation in an LDS framework here: Fidelity, Autonomy: Where does your body end and your spouse’s begin?

    Comment by C. L. Hanson — January 9, 2009 @ 1:22 pm

  166. Apogee,
    what about planning a trip with your wife? A week-long getaway to where ever she wants to go–no kids, no planned activities (unless she wants), no obligations–sex or otherwise. And make it very clear when suggesting this that she has final say over where, when and what activities. State it very clearly to her that this is not an effort for you to try to get sex, that if no sex happens — so be it. You love her and want to be with her–like a second honeymoon. You want her to be happy.

    Spend that time together, let her relax and you as well. If sex follows then use all of that time to explore and cuddle and talk, if it doesn’t then be happy with that and just enjoy being with your wife. But I would almost bet that after a day or two, removing the other stresses of everyday life will at least open up the opportunity for discussing.

    My husband and I have taken two trips (one overnight and the other for 11 days) in our ten years of marriage. And for me I have such fond memories from those trips of feeling loved and like I could give in to my urges because the rest of my life wasn’t sucking the life out of me. I knew my children were safe and this was our time to love and nurture each other so I was able to let go. We are currently planning our next getaway because we now realize how important it is, mostly to have time for us away from the kiddos.

    Just a thought…

    Comment by LT — January 9, 2009 @ 1:22 pm

  167. I do think what I have described is a problem out there that needs creative solutions. It is not a stereotype shibboleth born of misogyny.

    Yes it is a problem and we, as male and female, would do well to openly and honestly admit our role in it rather than trying to play one sex against the other. That won’t help solve anything and will probably make it worse. So, Apogee, what is your creative solution?

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 1:22 pm

  168. Ok,

    Apogee’s 20 year marriage is no longer being spoke by both parties as everlasting. Why?

    Is it because she doesn’t want sex with him as often as he wants it and not only that, now she says so. Maybe it’s feminism that makes her think that way.However, she claims the right to resist based not on feminist but on sanctity grounds.

    And so, as a hard driving successful male he says “OK, you want to discuss this in the language of religion, I can do that. Whatever you want!” Here then come scriptural justifications for his desires, demands, and yes, needs.

    Can’t find fault with the effort, he’s trying to communicate in the language she has chosen.
    —
    But here’s the thing. I thought that the most important paragraph in Apogee’s post was the first one.

    “Shortly before celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary, I returned from a long absence from the home for military duty. Through a series of conversations my wife told me that she resented the last 20 years of having to put up with having sex two or three times a week. We have had many discussions about our sexual relationship, many of them punctuated by tears, but it seemed that an accord was always reached that we both accepted. She now advised me that that was no longer the
    case, and had never been the case.”

    2) It TAKES A WHILE to re-integrate a family unit after a long
    absence. After a long absence it’s HARD to re-establish intimacy. Perhaps that’s harder for women then men. Or, the sexes may have a different approach to achieving it.

    The absence was for Military duty. The move from that environment back to the nest is very difficult on everyone. EVERYBODY is all bristly. How can you all NOT be? Sometimes it takes a while of just cautious walking around each other trying really hard to be polite. I’m pretty sure that negotiating rules of sexual engagement are best left til after a while of that.

    There is a 20 year old marriage here. If you want it to be
    everlasting, then love, not sex is the better foundation. It lasts
    longer.

    If you are committed to a relationship, then it seems to me that if
    you have loved your companion in the past, but now begin to ask yourself if you still do, that’s a really good sign that it’s past time for both of you to walk slow and talk low.

    Make no sudden moves.

    Don’t treat the current hurt like a loose tooth - worrying it constantly.

    Take vitamin B supplements, get a lot of exercise, try to get yourselves centered again. Don’t be in a rush, you were a long time apart.

    It’s so much easier to succeed at positive and useful discussions or even useful but fair fights when both participants are steady on their feet. Wear sturdy shoes.

    Comment by Betty Jo — January 9, 2009 @ 1:24 pm

  169. If I was in your wife’s shoes, I would feel incredibly pressured to have more sex or ruin my marriage, which would make it stressful and unenjoyable, lowering my desire. It’s a cycle. Perhaps some sensual activities (like taking a bath together) without pressure will help her libido out. You’ve been away for a while - she may have grown accustomed to doing without “activity”.

    I really dislike using anything from Paul as reasoning, mostly because of his BS about women not speaking over men.

    Comment by Moonbeam — January 9, 2009 @ 1:25 pm

  170. Okay…… here’s my comment I tried to post. I did silly things to hide the dirty words….. is that why it wasn’t posting before?

    And one other thing: rigorous sex can be painful for women. I am often very sore down there after having passionate sex. I love it, but it’s not something I want to repeat every day. Okay, here’s what I originally tried to say:

    I have one answer for you:

    Oral s3x.

    It’s not invasive for the woman; as some women have pointed out, penetration has interesting psychological aspects to it. And it is completely selfless, ESPECIALLY if you’re willing to just stop every once in a while after she’s done. When my husband gives me oral s3x, I KNOW he loves me and is devoted to me and my happiness, and I know that the sex is about pleasing me and sharing an experience with me, not about fulfilling his own physical need. Just like Hidegard says in #160; if sex is about your needs, and not showing your love, it’s way different. And your wife is just like us. I’m sure she can see the difference. Having sex to expel a need feels like you’re being used….. a h00ker could do just as well. But if you want to have sex to please me, to share your love for me, to give to me, then it’s making love. The two are completely different.

    I mean, the regular sex is good too. But for real.

    Oral sex.

    Comment by Just Someone — January 9, 2009 @ 1:26 pm

  171. 3. Needing sex is far less productive then “desiring” your wife- your whole wife, mind, body and spirit.

    Please try to need your wife and kids.

    Hmmm. If a wife doesn’t see sex as the cement that bonds a marriage together unless the husband has reached a certain emotional maturity, then the husband has to reach that maturity in a sexless state. “I’ll be waiting, dear.”

    Doesn’t work. Unequivocally. One cannot “need” in the way you describe without the sexual relationship functioning.

    Otherwise, I can just become a priest and set up a battered women’s shelter, where I can take care of women and children in dire need. Compassion, understanding, and care. Not a marriage.

    You are close to djinn’s suggestion of celibacy. Embrace her as a person, forget about the sex–that’s just extra goodies.

    We could always form an LLC and be the managing members, with its purpose being to raise the kids.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

  172. I’m somewhere in a middle ground. Barring illness/abuse, etc., it shocks me to hear people in a marriage say they haven’t had sex in however many MONTHS. At the same time, I don’t think once a day/a few times a day is a right to be enjoyed by either partner if the other person is against it.

    I do, however, feel most sorry for the men in heterosexual relationships. Women *do* have the final say, because most men (thank god) will not rape their wives. But how would women feel if they were turned down, over and over and over again? A chipper “I love you, I’m just tired” probably wouldn’t cut it. I don’t have T.V., but one time I caught an “Everybody Loves Raymond” episode, and it made me ill to watch Raymond act giddy and incredulous when his wife deigned to give him sex. He looked like a kid whose mother finally gave him a cookie- it was very… controlling, manipulative, sad, pathetic a little.

    Every time this comes up, the immediate reaction is “show her you love her! clean the dishes! take care of the kids for the next week and then we’ll talk!”. Why does that have to come from the husband to the wife first? What if the wife gave to the husband first? Men have to fulfill all of these requirements, so that *maybe* they’ll get sex? I don’t know. It’s a sensitive issue but to me it is foolish to selfishly insist on one’s own sexual needs to the complete exclusion of another’s. If one partner wants it every day, and another wants it once a month, a compromise is not twice a month.

    And lastly, why does it have to be full on sex? Both partners can do many other things with/to one another. Not to sound crass, but sometimes just lending a hand (ahem) would be enough- why does it have to be all or nothing?

    Comment by sophia*rising — January 9, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

  173. Wow. You must have a lot of open discussions with lots of people to know so much about their intimate lives.

    You say it like it’s a bad thing. Maybe I attract freewheeling outspoken types, but when I get together with friends for dinner or go to my kid’s playgroup, I hear incredibly detailed stuff about sex, birth control, spouses, you name it. Maybe because it’s so central to our lives it sometimes seems like the core of our conversations. I’m with Natalie K. here. With my really close friends (like best friends from college) there is no holding back (even when I kind of wish they would!).

    Comment by Rory — January 9, 2009 @ 1:28 pm

  174. Oral sex, hand sex, doesn’t matter. Any sexual intimacy is a commitment for her that can only be made occasionally.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

  175. ^ Note- I don’t mean to imply that the possibility of rape only happens in heterosexual relationships

    Comment by sophia*rising — January 9, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

  176. Apogee,

    You are a good husband, and your wife made a choice to not sustain her attraction to you, and her choice is the one that will ultimately affect your marriage and your kids in the long run. This is not something she can blame on you. She might reconsider after counseling, but if she doesn’t, then yes, you deserve to be with someone else who will make the decision to love you.

    Comment by Dan Ellsworth — January 9, 2009 @ 1:30 pm

  177. I don’t see how people can take sex out of the equation. For in sex will you find the power to create worlds in the life hereafter. Sex is marriage, sex is the ordinance of the covenants you made in the temple. You can not, should not take sex out of any marriage equation, period!

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 1:36 pm

  178. Hmmm. If a wife doesn’t see sex as the cement that bonds a marriage together unless the husband has reached a certain emotional maturity, then the husband has to reach that maturity in a sexless state. “I’ll be waiting, dear.”

    No. I don’t think you’re really thinking about what women are saying here. I will try to lay it out very clearly.

    You use sex to fulfill a physical need. You talk to your wife often about how you need sex a certain number of times. For 20 years, she unwillingly gave of herself (2-3 times a week!) out of her love for you.

    You need to change your views on sex. It is not about selfishly fulfilling your need. It is about sharing and expressing love. Your wife does not feel like your sex expresses that love because she feels like she has to do it FOR YOU to be a good wife. You are not doing it to please her. Sex is a thing for you, for you, for you. And she’s done it 2-3 times a week. For 20 years. Maybe she feels like for the next 20 years, you should be the one sacrificing your bodily needs and desires, and only have sex every two weeks. That’s really not too different than what you’ve expected from her.

    Start using intimacy (not just sex!) to express your love. Be intimate and affectionate without it leading to sex. Make it known that you are cuddling and caressing her to show love, not to get sex and “fulfill your need.”

    I’m trying to be very clear and blunt here. Change the way you think about the purpose of sex.

    3. Needing sex is far less productive then “desiring” your wife- your whole wife, mind, body and spirit.

    This is exactly right. You can stubbornly argue the point that you need sex, or you can accept that this is possibly how your wife feels. Insisting on needing sex will never change your wife’s attitudes towards it, no matter how vindicated it makes you feel.

    And I agree with what someone said before….. celibacy never killed anyone. At some point, we just need to get over it.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 9, 2009 @ 1:38 pm

  179. Otherwise, I can just become a priest and set up a battered women’s shelter, where I can take care of women and children in dire need. Compassion, understanding, and care. Not a marriage.

    I agree with you that that’s not a marriage, but not for the reason you give. It’s not because of the celibacy, it’s first off because a “women’s shelter” is for any woman (or women) who needs its services. You’re in a marriage not with “women” but with one particular person, your wife. You chose this person for a unique set of qualities and experiences. Your insistence on frequency of sex as its own issue separate from your wife’s psychological issues or sexual satisfaction or relationship with you is diminishing to her. It suggests that all you are looking for is sex and any woman could (or should) provide it. In your post above it appears you are generalizing your problem and extending it to all women in order to avoid dealing with the hairy particulars of why your relationship is so fraught.

    Betty Jo raised a really good issue, by the way. If you’ve been away there are all sorts of transitions to work through. Problems are common as families re-integrate. If things were truly better before then there is hope.

    Comment by Rory — January 9, 2009 @ 1:40 pm

  180. Your insistence on frequency of sex as its own issue separate from your wife’s psychological issues or sexual satisfaction or relationship with you is diminishing to her.

    Exactly! If sex is just to satisfy physical urges, then your wife could be swapped with any other warm body. Not exactly a heart-warming feeling.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 9, 2009 @ 1:43 pm

  181. Natalie K’s comment in 177 is spot on.

    Comment by Rory — January 9, 2009 @ 1:46 pm

  182. I have to say, I don’t have any answers. I have been searching for some myself and spouse for years. I am married to a spouse who would love more sex, I am not so inclined. Let me go back a few years. When I was a youth I had sex with one companion several times and it was great! However, being a member of the church, the guilt kicked in big time, I told my companion I couldn’t partake any longer, we talked about it, and it stopped. (I talked to my Bishop) We continued dating for another year. Many years later, staying very chaste, singing hymns in my head whenever I started thinking about sex, I met a wonderful person. We got married and I was oh so looking forward to sex, but something was greatly lacking. I don’t know what or why. I want it to be different, it never has been. It is a problem we haven’t been able to solve while our children were growing up, and now that they are gone, we still haven’t solved it. I feel very bad for my spouse and myself, I know it can be so good. I will continue reading this post to see if there is any advice given we haven’t tried. And yes, we both have orgasms.

    Good luck Apogee, you sound like a great person.

    Still Learning

    Comment by Still Learning — January 9, 2009 @ 1:46 pm

  183. Whence the assumption that I do not love my wife or don’t care about her sexual satisfaction or relationship with me? I do show nonsexual affection, physical and otherwise. I have been home for over a year, and the issues are still difficult as I have described them.

    If all I needed was an orgasm, I’d just jerk off. The latest intimations that my wife is a sperm receptacle are as offensive as someone treating me as a sperm donor so she could fulfill her dream of having a large family. Come on.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 1:49 pm

  184. Your wife does not feel like your sex expresses that love because she feels like she has to do it FOR YOU to be a good wife.

    That is not anything apogee can correct. If she feels that way, then it is her issue to work through, not his.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 1:58 pm

  185. to 182.
    My apologies, Apogee. This isn’t about sex as much as it is about affection and being wanted by your wife (which to you, like my DH, is hand in hand with sex)?
    I think you feel rejected, and as a defense you are quoting scripture and rationalizing why your wife owes this to you, but really you just feel vunerable and hurt.
    I don’t know why people stop wanting each other. All I can do is encourage you to really try to get her attention before you call it quits; she might not know exactly what it is you are feeling. Your kids are worth putting up a a fight (as in trying to win her affection back) for. Best wishes.

    Comment by Hildegard — January 9, 2009 @ 2:19 pm

  186. #176 - Just as something to consider, we have NO revelation about how “procreation” works after mortality. None. Personally, I don’t think taking “an intelligence” and creating “a spirit” has anything to do with sexual relationships as we understand and practice them here. I might be totally wrong about that, since it purely speculation, but I will be perfectly fine if sexual intercourse is not a part of my eternal existence once I die - as long as I’m with my wife.

    Intercourse is great, but it’s not a necessary aspect of my marital bliss. If something happened to halt intercourse in our marriage, our sex life wouldn’t stop; it only would change.

    We are products of our cultures, and it is really difficult in such a highly- (overly-) sexualized society to understand that MANY couples over the years have enjoyed true marital harmony and love and bliss and wonder and enlightenment - and FULL unity without intercourse. Personally, I think getting over that cultural bias and accepting whatever moderate compromise we need to make to reach true unity (especially after we are done having children - which is the only biological imperative related to intercourse itself) is one of the final measures of rejecting the “natural (wo)man” - and I say that as a man with a wonderful sex life in all its multi-faceted glory who hopes to die from mutual heart attacks at 105/104 during intercourse with my wife.

    I stopped worrying about how often we would have intercourse years ago and focused instead on a vibrant, healthy, comprehensive sex life. Fwiw, I would recommend that approach highly.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 2:21 pm

  187. #185 - I meant to type “FULL unity without intercourse once the childbearing years are over.”

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 2:23 pm

  188. Actually we do…. I will find the article and post it.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 2:24 pm

  189. I haven’t found it yet, but I will get it up as soon as I do, but think about it Ray. In everything we have covenants and ordinances. Baptism we make covenants, the ordinance is the actually submerging of the body. In the temple we make covenants we promise our spouse things we will do to love them and honor them, what, pray tell, is the ordinance? Sex. Every time we have sex we renew the covenants that we made in the Temple.

    It is Holland that gave a talk on it, and I believe Pres Kimball that also spoke on the importance of sex here, and in the here after.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 2:40 pm

  190. Re. 182,
    Apogee, I’m sorry if I came across as insensitive. Obviously, the situation is far more complicated in real life than could ever be conveyed on an online forum. My words just arose out of the insistence I keep perceiving of this whole “sex is a need” thing. I really do see some harmful effects of that viewpoint, and just wanted to clearly emphasize those things. I really hope you can figure everything out and come to a solution that gives peace to both of you.

    In the end, I agree with what others have said, like Ray in #185. Being married is about so much more than sex. Don’t let this one factor take away from all the beautiful things that have kept you together for 20 years. I echo others that have spoken against the divorce option. Best of luck.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 9, 2009 @ 2:48 pm

  191. If all I needed was an orgasm, I’d just jerk off.

    So you’re saying that a bit of supplemental masturbation is an unacceptable compromise for dealing with the frequency issue? Have you tried polygamy?

    Comment by C. L. Hanson — January 9, 2009 @ 2:49 pm

  192. #123 Ray - Thanks for addressing this. As a YW leader I have never taught a lesson that included sex as dirty, naughty or wrong. On the contrary, my YW knew they could confide in me and get honest truthful answers. I never have understood why women have problems with knowing sex is off limits to life until marriage and then accepting it as part of the partnership in marriage. We all know driving a car is off limits until we get a drivers license. Getting a drivers license gives us new privileges just like getting married and having the license gives us the opportunity for pleasure and new exciting privileges.

    Comment by bigmama — January 9, 2009 @ 2:50 pm

  193. I need to say thank you for all this. I am 12 years married. 4 kids under 9. We haven’t had sex in, well, I’m not sure. It may have been since pregnancy 2 years ago, but I suspect there’s been one time since I delivered our last child. Before, b/c we’ve never been all that frequent, it was fear of pg that kept me saying no. Now my tubes are tied, and pg is no longer the excuse. I realize it’s just me. I have low libido, but there must be more also.

    This thread has made me realize how absolutely selfish I’ve been. We have a good marriage (if it can be good when devoid of sex). Divorce is not an option. We don’t fight. My dh doesn’t complain, though I KNOW he wants sex more often; he has given up asking. We sleep on our separate sides of bed, never touching. We never kiss each other goodnight, though he’s sure to kiss me before he leaves for the office and when he gets home from work. I can’t recall our last passionate kiss.

    I’m treating this like a confessional, and I suppose for that I apologize. I did just want to say Thanks to Apogee, and to wish you luck. Although I don’t agree with everything you’ve written, it makes me realize only what I can imagine my dh is thinking, and needing. In theory,I want to satisfy him. When we do have sex, I always enjoy it. He’s amazing in bed and I always orgasm. But it seems like I’m always tired; there’s never a good time; kids always need me (even last night I was up every 2 hours with various kids); and, like someone else mentioned above, the last thing I want/need is someone else touching me, wanting something from me.

    I don’t know if your wife feels that at all, but thought I’d put it out there.

    Thanks again for this wonderful discussion. i saw the post go up last night, and I was up reading comments till 1, mesmorized. Turns out, I should have just gone to bed and used that time to jump on my dh.

    Comment by havetobeanonymous — January 9, 2009 @ 2:55 pm

  194. It is to good to just post this, but here is one article I was referring to. I will find the other and pay close attention to this part:

    Second, may I suggest that human intimacy, that sacred, physical union ordained of God for a married couple, deals with a symbol that demands special sanctity. Such an act of love between a man and a woman is–or certainly was ordained to be–a symbol of total union: union of their hearts, their hopes, their lives, their love, their family, their future, their everything. It is a symbol that we try to suggest in the temple with a word like seal. The Prophet Joseph Smith once said we perhaps ought to render such a sacred bond as “welding”–that those united in matrimony and eternal families are “welded” together, inseparable if you will, to withstand the temptations of the adversary and the afflictions of mortality. (See D&C 128:18.)

    But such a total, virtually unbreakable union, such an unyielding commitment between a man and a woman, can only come with the proximity and permanence afforded in a marriage covenant, with the union of all that they possess–their very hearts and minds, all their days and all their dreams. They work together, they cry together, they enjoy Brahms and Beethoven and breakfast together, they sacrifice and save and live together for all the abundance that such a totally intimate life provides such a couple. And the external symbol of that union, the physical manifestation of what is a far deeper spiritual and metaphysical bonding, is the physical blending that is part of–indeed, a most beautiful and gratifying expression of–that larger, more complete union of eternal purpose and promise.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 2:58 pm

  195. That leads me to my last reason, a third effort to say why. After soul and symbol, the word is sacrament, a term closely related to the other two. Sexual intimacy is not only a symbolic union between a man and a woman–the uniting of their very souls–but it is also symbolic of a union between mortals and deity, between otherwise ordinary and fallible humans uniting for a rare and special moment with God himself and all the powers by which he gives life in this wide universe of ours.

    and this too

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 3:04 pm

  196. I often wonder what married couples would do if the husband or wife could no longer “perform” due to a physical disability?

    Do people still believe that love = sex, and if you don’t have sex there is no love?

    Apogee ~ I would ask you these questions? Do you enjoy just cuddling with your wife? Do you enjoy just holding or squeezing her hand? Do you give her soft kisses on the cheek? Do you give her spontaneous hugs? Do you massage her back or tired feet? (My DH can get me purring doing that. :-) ) Do you nibble on, or fondle, her earlobe? (Again, DH gets me purring when he does that. I have ear orgasms. :-0 )? The same would also hold true for your wife — Does she shower you with any sort of affection?

    DH and I have been married 36 years. We have reached a point where we appreciate little signs and gestures of love and affection rather than chandelier swinging, mind blowing sex. We’re “frisky” in our own way. :-)

    Comment by Kalola — January 9, 2009 @ 3:05 pm

  197. I’ve read with great interest all the posts since last night. I agree with some points / disagree with others. Suffice to say, we are all different, not simply the male/female dichotomy. Having been divorced, mainly because of severe control issues that heavily involved sex, I have found a sincere, respecful, loving man, who would NEVER dream of demanding anything from me. Our sex life is more than satisfying; I never knew sex could be so much fun.
    I can also remember the feelings of terror of being on my back,sometimes forcibly, while X ground into me, revelling in his supreme dominance over my very being. He often pinned my arms and…anyway, horrible. For years, I felt I was the defective one, epecially since he was the “righteous” priesthood holder. Being the mother of nine children with X, it’s amazing I am still sane!!

    Raising children is a huge factor in any marriage; one many men don’t get. Becasue X forbade birth control, I was scared each time I became pregnant. I knew what childbirth and nursing was like. I constantly had little bodies tugging at me, inside and out. My body was never my own, especially with X. He hated it when I finally used a diaphram - because I took the control away from him, as to pregnancy. For the first time in our marriage I had some control over MY body.

    I’m sorry, I still have a hard time sympathizing with Apogee. I have a DIL who was sexually assaulted as a teen, and a daughter who was raped shortly after she moved to Provo, so I know a bit about women with who have bad sexual experiences. Even after I married my current husband, I would often have flashbacks, of sexual trauma with X. New husband is patient and ALWAYS listens to me. We can cuddle naked without having sex - wow - I never knew that was possible. I like it. That said,we have a normal sex life and I have no sexual problems, now that I have a normal husband.

    After X was disciplined and we separated, I had several members of the High Council ask how I was doing. Every one of them said that experience in the disciplinary court, made them re-assess how they treated their wives. I think, and this is only my opinion, that LDS men can use religion as a weapon to control their wives. I am in my 50’s and have known many LDS women who have had similar experiences - men who use their preisthood to control.

    X and I analyzed our sex life to death, went to counselling, read books, etc. BUT, the root problem was his spiritual belief that I was his, body and soul, that he was in charge of me, physically and spiritually, and the gospel backed him up, which he constantly told me.Even on the way to and from the temple!

    Is there a deep seated bias in many LDS men, that because of Eve, we are inferior? That we need to be controlled? That men are in charge of us?

    I LOVED the article that Beverly Campbell wrote about Eve. It blew me away and I read it often. It resonates as truth to me, but why don’t we teach THAT in our meetings? Maybe if more LDS women were certain of their real worth, they would be more sure of their sexuality, and maybe if more men knew who their wives really are, they would be less demanding of their rights.

    Again, Apogee, I wonder what song your dear wife would sing if she felt free to express her innremost feelings?

    LucySophia

    Comment by LucySophia — January 9, 2009 @ 3:07 pm

  198. Apogee, you can not, should not take sex out of marriage!!!

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 3:07 pm

  199. Lucy Sophia, you were right to leave.

    Indeed, most tragically, it is the young woman who is most often the victim, it is the young woman who most often suffers the greater pain, it is the young woman who most often feels used and abused and terribly unclean. And for that imposed uncleanliness a man will pay, as surely as the sun sets and rivers run to the sea.

    Elder Holland

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 3:10 pm

  200. Hi apogee-sounds rough.Have you looked at Alex Alman’s stuff on youtube?Someone mentioned it on another post and i think it’s wonderful and coming at this from a male perspective.A project to explore together,but starting from acknowledging a very male place.Go look now![nothing creepy or anything you should’nt see]

    Comment by wayfarer — January 9, 2009 @ 3:13 pm

  201. Catching up again, but:

    #188 - “In the temple we make covenants we promise our spouse things we will do to love them and honor them, what, pray tell, is the ordinance? Sex.”

    Actually, the exact wording is “sexual relations” - NOT “sex” (or “intercourse”). That is exactly my point.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 3:15 pm

  202. Okay, after reading this post and many of the comments I have something to say. It’s true, I don’t have sex enough with my husband. I want to work on meeting in the middle concerning my needs and his. I’m going to work on this because I love him and want to have a good marriage. But, and I can’t say this enough, I am so grateful to be married to a man who would never throw scripture in my face to manipulate me into giving him more sex!! Sex should be between a husband and wife not husband, wife and Paul or some other scriptural reference. Can’t we ever do something because it’s good for our marriage and we love the other person, understanding we all have weaknesses we need to work on, not because we are being told what to do by scriptures or the church.

    Comment by Anne — January 9, 2009 @ 3:18 pm

  203. I can’t believe that no one has mentioned that sex makes kids. If your wife has children (and you say she already has a lot) then she knows the physical cost of pregnancy, labor, delivery, and lactation — these are things that you can’t “help with” no matter how many diapers you have changed. And there is NO FORM of birth control other than abstinence that 100% guarantees that you will not get pregnant.

    I have a high sex drive as does my husband. But I also have horrible, debilitating pregnancies, post-pardum depression, and am extremely fertile. The thought of another pregnancy-labor-delivery-lactation does keep me from intimacy from my spouse as much as both of us would probably like–and I live in a time when I can get birth control that would prevent 2-3 times a week getting me pregnant every nine months.

    That being said, what are your views on birth control? Would you be willing to get a vasectomy for your wife?

    Comment by Vundermom — January 9, 2009 @ 3:20 pm

  204. I may be off base here, but I’m going to share my experience and hope it helps bring another view of what is going on with your wife. I’m very so-so about sex. My husband is great. I orgasm. It’s fun. He does things that I like. But, it just seems like I could take it or leave it. What’s really interesting is, the longer I go without it, the less I want/crave/desire it. In trying to get pregnant, we decided to go a month with having sex every day. The more we had sex, the more I wanted it (and surprisingly, the less my husband needed it). Instead of him pushing every night, I was the one pushing. You said you had returned from an extended leave of duty. In that time, your wife may have learned that she could go without it. Unfortunatly, I don’t have any solution for you. It’s kind’ve hard when you both are keeping track of how often it happens. I would say, agree to at least every other week, but I know she’ll notice if you try more often and resent it. I really think that only a counseler could help convince her to agree to it more often.

    Comment by Anonnymous — January 9, 2009 @ 3:24 pm

  205. I disagree, Ray, sexual relations means sexual intercourse, or am I missing something in your point….

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 3:25 pm

  206. Sunshine, I actually agree 100% with the quotes you cited. I am NOT saying that anyone should cut intercourse out of a marriage when it is “available” as part of their sex life. That would be stupid.

    What I am saying is that intercourse is not a “requirement” of a fulfilling sex life. There are many couples who can’t have intercourse who still have a wonderful sex life. I’m saying we need to separate the two in our own minds and deal with them as separate issues.

    In the temple I covenant to have “sexual relations” only with my wife, NOT to “have sexual intercourse” with my wife. Of course, where possible, the latter is included in the former - but it doesn’t have to be. If, for whatever reason, my wife and I had to eliminate intercourse from our sex life, we still could have a mind-blowing sex life - and we still could honor and fulfill the temple covenant.

    That’s important, and it gets overlooked far too often in our society.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 3:27 pm

  207. Another thought: Apogee, perhaps you should tell your wife you “want to make love” to her not “I need sex.”

    And a question for everyone: Do you prefer the term “making love” or “having sex”?

    I prefer “making love” because I learned that you can have sex without the love. “Making love” sounds so much more sensual.

    Comment by Kalola — January 9, 2009 @ 3:27 pm

  208. I have read every single comment, and I have a couple of things I’d like to add, wise and clever as only an unmarried 25year old can be…

    1) The most efficient way to never have your spouse be your sex partner is to add guilt, force, and powerstruggle into the mix

    2) Women need to realize their DUTY - to themselves! We are all sexual beings, it’s such a wonderful blessing from the Lord. Learning to take responsibility for one’s own sexuality can make all the difference! By that I mean that learning to enjoy ones sexuality is one of the best things one can do for oneself and sone’s partner.

    3) remind yourself how lucky you are to have someone to love, mentally and physically. I envy you!!

    Apogee, I am glad you brought up the talk-into thing and the pouting - and I am so glad you learned the futility and foolishness of that sort of attitude. it turns sex into a commodity between the two of you, and turns what should be good, clean fun&emotion between the couple into …. yet another power struggle.

    Comment by stranded — January 9, 2009 @ 3:32 pm

  209. Apogee - Get professional help soon and often. Alone if your wife won’t go. If she does go, I’d suggest you center all your questions and soul searching for the first two months on what you can do to empower your wife.

    Sunshine linked to a Holland article. One section of Holland’s talk sums up the advice I keep hearing MANY wise women of this forum give you. But I get the sense from your responses that you are very hesitant to accept these comments as applying to you and your marriage.

    Holland - “As all couples come to that moment of bonding in mortality, it is to be just such a complete union. That commandment cannot be fulfilled, and that symbolism of “one flesh” cannot be preserved, if we hastily and guiltily and surreptitiously share intimacy in a darkened corner of a darkened hour, then just as hastily and guiltily and surreptitiously retreat to our separate worlds–not to eat or live or cry or laugh together, not to do the laundry and the dishes and the homework, not to manage a budget and pay the bills and tend the children and plan together for the future. No, we cannot do that until we are truly one–united, bound, linked, tied, welded, sealed, married.”

    “Can you see then the moral schizophrenia that comes from pretending we are one, sharing the physical symbols and physical intimacy of our union, but then fleeing, retreating, severing all such other aspects–and symbols–of what was meant to be a total obligation, only to unite again furtively some other night…”

    Comment by Eric Browan — January 9, 2009 @ 3:36 pm

  210. #206 - Here is a very blunt and graphic question, Sunshine - simply to make my point explicit:

    If I am in an accident and lose my penis forever, am I suddenly doomed to be in violation of my temple covenant simply because I can no longer penetrate my wife in an act of intercourse? If my wife develops extreme dementia and no longer is capable of consent, do I go ahead and have intercourse (essentially raping her) - in order to continue to fulfill my temple covenant?

    To me, the answer is a clear and unequivocal, “NO!” In the temple I don’t covenant to have intercourse with my wife; I promise to abstain from sexual relations with others. That is very,very different.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 3:37 pm

  211. Towards the end of our marriage, I told X, in all sincerity and with tears running down my face, that if he really truly loved me, he would get a vasectomy. He looked as if I had struck him in the face. He was absolutely horrified and told me I was so incredibly wicked to even say such a thing. His response spoke volumes to me and I knew our marriage would not last much longer.

    Shortly after this discussion, he sat me down while he read from the Handbook of Instructions to me, on the topic of birth control. My response - “Ins’t it better to save our marriage by practicing birth control?” Obviously he didn’t agree.

    I know it may sound petty and perhaps insensitive, but I do find it funny that I am happily married with a lovely sex life now, while he is still single and doing without!

    Comment by LucySophia — January 9, 2009 @ 3:42 pm

  212. theoretically I agree, Ray, but you can’t take sex out of sexual relations.

    If you do then you have relations and not ’sexual’ relations. You have intercourse and not ’sexual’ intercourse, so then it wouldn’t be sexual relations like you describe it would just be relations, our intercourse of a non physical nature and that isn’t the same things as sexual relations. In marriage you can have relations, mind blowing as they may be, can in no way compare to a mind blowing orgasm.

    You can’t have your cake and eat it too, Ray. :) You can’t use the word ’sexual relations’ without implying sexual intercourse of some nature. Sex being the operative word here…

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 3:42 pm

  213. Obviously you are in pain over this. I also believe that ideally marriages should have lots of sex. 2-5 times a week. Maybe twice on Sunday.

    Holy Crackers.

    Comment by sare — January 9, 2009 @ 3:46 pm

  214. A young missionary told my DH that once a woman is beyond child-bearing, the couple should no longer have sexual relations. Obviously that young man had a lot to learn.

    Comment by Kalola — January 9, 2009 @ 3:46 pm

  215. My 211 posted before I read your 209, I agree, but that isn’t Apogees case and shouldn’t be a factor.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

  216. Dumb question, but I’ll ask anyway: Why is sex so important?

    Comment by Kalola — January 9, 2009 @ 3:50 pm

  217. #211 - Sunshine, let’s just agree to disagree about this. My “sexual relations” involve WAY more than intercourse - and still would be “sexual” even in the absence of intercourse.

    Frankly, I think you are reading way more into what I am saying than I actually am saying, but perhaps you aren’t. Perhaps you really are saying, “Yes,” to my questions in #209. If so, we really do disagree at a very basic, fundamental and important level. That’s fine, as long as it’s understood as such.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 3:51 pm

  218. and I was typing while you were posting #214.

    I don’t know if it’s relevant to Apogee or not, since I don’t know his wife’s situation fully, but I appreciate the fact that you are talking only about his apparent situation.

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 3:55 pm

  219. I agree with you Ray, but at first, before I read 209, I thought that you were saying you can have a sexual realtionship without sex of any kind. In 209 you gave a great example of what you meant, and I agree to it. However, I do not feel that example relates to Apogees problem, seeing how sex of any kind is hard for his wife.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 4:00 pm

  220. pres — thanks for taking my query seriously. Much appreciated! I understand a lot of what you say, although it still seems weird to stick sex on a hierarchy of needs with stuff like food and shelter, without which we die. Maybe ol’ Maslow had a marital tustle of his own.

    Comment by Janet — January 9, 2009 @ 4:01 pm

  221. LOL!, yes there is always another side to any, or in any relationship.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 4:01 pm

  222. Kalola read this article , assuming your are LDS this will give you a great understanding of what it means to be ‘one flesh’

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 4:03 pm

  223. Kalola 213- My DH had a mission companion who said he would only have sex to have children. My husband has always wondered how many kids the mission companion ended up with.

    Comment by Anonnymous — January 9, 2009 @ 4:05 pm

  224. 218, argg… I meant *doesn’t* relate to Apogee’s situation.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 4:05 pm

  225. Dang… I think I have been on to long, mfranti, please delete this and 223…

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 4:07 pm

  226. Sunshine ~ Thank you for the link to an excellent article. BTW, you wrote “assuming your are LDS this will give you a great understanding of what it means to be ‘one flesh’.” I do not think one has to be LDS to understand what it means to be “one flesh.”

    Comment by Kalola — January 9, 2009 @ 4:17 pm

  227. Kalola, ya I agree. I just wanted to forewarn you about the content if you (general you, and others reading) didn’t want that type of information.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 4:25 pm

  228. Wow. As a newlywed 7 years ago, I was annoyed that my husband was less interested in sex than me. But now that I read this, and all this stuff about Men needing sex (every 4 days) or divorce, I am SO RELIEVED!!!!!!

    THANK GOD I have a husband who doesn’t ask every 4 days (or else) and doesn’t want to have sex if I don’t want to have sex!!!!!! PRAISE THE LORD — I am so lucky.

    That said, now that I have kids, sex is not nearly so attractive and I have become the kind of wife you want yours to be, Apogee. If he wants to and I don’t, I have sex just to be kind — I just don’t tell him that, to save his feelings. But you should beware what you ask for — I think my being a “Good Pauline Wife” has had a deleterious effect on my happiness in marriage. It is much less romantic for me, just feels like a duty now, to be kind. I guess it is good that he doesn’t feel like you, but for me its…..boring. Blah. and sometimes, YUCK. But I smile and do my duty because I am nice. You seem so certain that yours is the best way, but living in it, I’m not so sure.

    Comment by Vegetable — January 9, 2009 @ 4:31 pm

  229. I have enjoyed watching this spool out, and the retraction of some claws. No, I’m not perfect, and yes, I can do better. I am resolving to focus on nonsexual intimacy. This goes into my desire to be more spiritually focused on DW. She tells me this is what she needs. I am taking her word for it.

    Ray, I am probably dating myself considerably, but the temple ceremony was changed years ago, replacing “sexual intercourse” with “sexual relations.” It still jars me to hear the new version. The emendation gives insight into meaning. Also, I never thought of sex as an ordinance, as I always heard the sex language in the temple to be proscriptive. But I can go with that.

    I am going to try to be a “real religious man.” The atonement, I am confident, can heal my marriage.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 4:34 pm

  230. Oh–if my wife asked me, would I have a vasectomy? I would pull all the strings I have with doctor friends to get into the next surgical slot. Done. For DW, absolutely.

    Comment by Apogee — January 9, 2009 @ 4:36 pm

  231. vegetable -

    having sex to be kind… to me it sounds demeaning to the both of you. why wear it out? why not have the courage to say “not nonight dear, but let’s have a lunch date while the kids are at school…” so you make having sex an attractive thing, not a drag, not a duty, not something you put up with to be nice. what’s kind and nice about allowing sex to become blah, youck and boring? By looking at it as doing your duty, it seems to me you’re doing a great job at ruining it for the both of you. How will he become better in bed if you don’t let him know that kind of nookie is plain boring to you? take some responsibilty, don’t hide behind the darned martyr act.

    Comment by stranded — January 9, 2009 @ 4:36 pm

  232. I’ve read through all the comments, and might I just say, I don’t think it’s a logical point to use a situation of illness, injury, etc. that 100% PREVENTS sex from being able to take place, and then use that to make a point about the insensitivity of talking about the importance of sex in a relationship.

    Sexual intimacy is very important, and if both partners are able to give it, it *should* be a part of a relationship. Of course, if someone was injured/ill and could no longer give/receive, we are talking about something altogether different. I think our discussion seems mostly focused on how two healthy people in a marriage can compromise on sexual needs. One can admit the importance of sex without that implying that they would, say, divorce their partner if he/she were paralyzed from the neck down and could not engage in the actual act of intercourse.

    Comment by sophia*rising — January 9, 2009 @ 4:45 pm

  233. Stranded — I agree with you! But there was nothing wrong with my husband’s sexual prowess, I just was simply not interested and wanted him to be satisfied with it, even if I felt I couldn’t because of all the demands of early parenthood on a woman’s body. It didn’t HURT, it just wasn’t fun for me. At the beginning, I didn’t think it would be wrong of me to give without being able to receive, but now I see the damage I’ve done. This is meant to be a warning to Apogee.

    Comment by Vegetable — January 9, 2009 @ 4:57 pm

  234. From #231:

    I don’t think it’s a logical point to use a situation of illness, injury, etc. that 100% PREVENTS sex from being able to take place, and then use that to make a point about the insensitivity of talking about the importance of sex in a relationship.

    I missed that point wherever it was made as I was reading the comments. What comment was it, please?

    Comment by Ray — January 9, 2009 @ 5:10 pm

  235. sophia*rising,

    I don’t think it’s a logical point to use a situation of illness, injury, etc. that 100% PREVENTS sex from being able to take place, and then use that to make a point about the insensitivity of talking about the importance of sex in a relationship.

    This is true to an extent. If one is going to claim that sex is a bona fide biological need (like eating) then bringing up tragic accidents that prevent sex altogether point out that no, sex is not really that sort of need.
    On the other hand like you said, while sex may be a want it is still a very important want. A want which can be used both to please and punish one’s spouse. The way this want is handled by those dearest to us cut to the very core of one’s self-worth, and happiness.

    I think that most of the people who have brought up the tragic sex preventing accident have done so to point out that this isn’t really about biological needs for sex, but rather about the use of sex as means of control or how to fair when spouses have competing desires. Sex does not have to be a hard-wired biological need for it to be very important.

    The language used here (I need sex, and she should accommodate me, or she’s being sinful.) sounds childish and grasping. I think the real need is respect and love, and it is very hard to feel respected or loved when things you dearly want are simply brushed off by the person who supposedly loves you most.

    Comment by Starfoxy — January 9, 2009 @ 5:29 pm

  236. Starfoxy, beautifully written

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 5:33 pm

  237. I can’t speak for Sunshine for sure, Ray, but I think the misunderstanding is coming from personal definitions of words differing. I was completely baffled by the distinction you were trying to make until I looked at the wikipedia definition of sexual intercourse. I lumped everything in my head as “sex,” so I didn’t understand the distinction you were making between sexual intercourse being the actual act of penetration and sexual relations. ;)

    In general, this thread has made me very sad. I love sex and I love my husband and I love having sex with my husband. Even when I don’t feel like it, I’ll usually do it anyway, because it makes him happy and I want him to be happy. Maybe that’s the problem you’re having Vegetable? You’re seeing it as a duty rather than a service? And you know what, plenty of times I end up enjoying it myself. As for my husband, unless I tell him I’m not interested in orgasming, his default mode is to try to give me one because he wants to make me happy (though he admits to ulterior motives as well, as he figures if I enjoy sex I’ll be more likely to want to have it).

    Comment by Firebyrd — January 9, 2009 @ 5:36 pm

  238. Firebyrd, I actually do see it as service (we do have a duty to serve others, I think), and I think Apogee thinks that should be enough for his wife to want to have sex.

    I guess my point is that if it is always for service, that’s not enough, and can actually further damage the sexual relationship. I think Apogee should be satisfied with less sex if that means it is better for his wife, and should fear pushing it, lest it become even less meaningful for his wife than it already is.

    Comment by Vegetable — January 9, 2009 @ 5:49 pm

  239. Where is the link to the “Holland” talk several of you mention.

    Thanks

    Comment by Goodstuff — January 9, 2009 @ 5:54 pm

  240. here is the link.

    Comment by Sunshine — January 9, 2009 @ 6:21 pm

  241. oh, holy crap the number of comments exploded since I read them in the middle of the night.

    so, forgive me, I had something I wanted to add and am going to post without reading all the comments (and will, thus, probably repeat what someone else said better than me)

    And this really isn’t meant as a criticism of you Apogee, just an idea about possibly part of the problem, but when I read the OP, I got the impression that you were spending a lot of time justifying the reason that men need sex (no argument here; they do) but almost no time trying to understand why your wife found it so repugnant. This could be completely unique to the post, itself, but it did give me pause.

    It seems like such an *active* dislike of sex has to have *some* sort of cause beyond just not wanting it (it’s pretty easy for us women to just passively “endure”–endure meant without the negative connotation, but I couldn’t think of the right word–sex for ten minutes every few days when there’s nothing to make us *hate* it. It’s just vigorous naked hugging after all.) Does it give her bladder infections? Make her feel “used”? Like she’s only valued for sex? Does it hurt? Does she feel manipulated or out of control? Does she feel like nothing she does will ever be enough for you? Do you expect her to suddenly be in the mood even if the house is a mess and you worked late and the kids are fighting? Next time you chat with her, my advice is to spend more time trying to figure out her side of it. That way it won’t risk coming off as you attempting to force her into it because you have such good reasons. (Which would make me respond all rebellious, too, no matter how I *actually* felt.)

    Comment by Isis — January 9, 2009 @ 6:24 pm

  242. I don’t know what else to say, Vegetable. Even though I do it sometimes just for my husband, that doesn’t stop me for wanting it for myself at others. While no woman should be forced into having sex, it doesn’t seem right to make a loving husband go without just because the wife doesn’t want to. Some of it might play into the women feel more like having sex when they feel loved and men feeling more loved when they have sex (which has proved true in my marriage), but I don’t know how to apply that to the larger problem Apogee is talking about (or your personal situation) beyond communication, communication, communication. And both partners have to want to make things work and open up to each other.

    Some of Apogee’s comments from today seem to indicate that he and his wife had another heart to heart and he has new ideas for what he should be doing to try to make things better. I really hope it does, because while some of what he’s said rubs the wrong way (I’m very sex positive, if you couldn’t tell, and the thought that I should never, ever say no irritates me), overall, he seems like a genuinely good guy who wants and is trying to make it work.

    It’s such a hard thing, but I think most, if not all, relationships that end do so because one partner refuses to put their all into things. Relationships where there’s an unequal amount of effort relative to the person’s abilities get rocky. Obviously, due to various circumstances, there probably isn’t ever going to be exactly equal effort as far as quantity (not that this can really be quanitified), but as long as it is the very best both can do, I think things can work out.

    I could be wrong. I only know the intimate details of relatively few relationships when you consider how many people are out there, but with the ones I do know about, one partner holding back seems to be the problem. It certainly was the case for my parents.

    Comment by Firebyrd — January 9, 2009 @ 6:24 pm

  243. Heh, despite my inability to address Vegetable’s situation with anything but sympathy, I did babble on a lot.

    Comment by Firebyrd — January 9, 2009 @ 6:25 pm

  244. Re: 192

    Honey? Is that you?

    Comment by teancum — January 9, 2009 @ 6:45 pm

  245. #219 Janet,

    I do remember Maslow from my Organizational Behavior classes at business school. We die without food and water. We cant exist without them. We can EXISTwithout sex. Marriages probably can’t and moreover, who wants to just exist when we can really LIVE. On the needs level, it’s truly a need when it comes to maintaining fulfilled and intimate relationships with our spouses.

    Comment by Pres — January 9, 2009 @ 7:10 pm

  246. I think Apogee should be satisfied with less sex if that means it is better for his wife, and should fear pushing it, lest it become even less meaningful for his wife than it already is.

    Agreed. Apogee, what if you only had sex every other week, but it was sex that your wife really wanted and enjoyed? Wouldn’t that be better than having a dutiful serving wife that gives you her body 2-3 times a week?

    With sex, I definitely think quality is more important than quantity. At least from a female perspective.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 9, 2009 @ 7:21 pm

  247. Ok, in seriousness, chalk me up as another guy in Apogee’s situation. Except I have given up trying to communicate or otherwise work the problem out. For me, talking about the problem is simply not worth the emotional toll. And initiating sex with someone who is not interested is not worth the hit to my self-esteem. We have a great marriage in all other respects (”Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?”) and love our kids, so I guess there are worse things than really, really infrequent sex.

    And please, spare me the talk about doing the dishes, demonstrating intimacy in other ways, trying to learn about her needs, yada, yada. Been there; done that. I am not an idiot. Or a brute. I just think it is not important to my wife; nor is it important to her that it is important to me. Have I considered divorce? Sure. Will it come to that? Who knows? The “devil you know,” and all that.

    Comment by teancum — January 9, 2009 @ 7:21 pm

  248. This conclusion seems to have been already reached, but I agree, doing more housework, buying flowers probably isn’t really going to fix things (although extra help around the house never hurts a relationship).

    I think counseling is a great idea. My Mister and I went, and it was so helpful to have a third perspective.

    My main thought is that instead of trying to just do more around the house to get her in the mood, ask what she needs, what makes her feel loved, and then don’t pressure. I’m a bit of a camel, and in between fill-ups I sometimes resent any perceived pressure to have sex. Go two weeks trying to meet her needs (real needs, that she has specified, not just helping around the house or diaper changing) with no requests for sex and see what happens.

    I find I want sex more often when my Mister just wants to cuddle- because I don’t feel pressured.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 9, 2009 @ 7:25 pm

  249. Ha Teancum, I missed your post.

    I agree, that sometimes there might not be anything that will work to fix the issue, but I think that those times are really rare.

    I think if you can figure out what is behind the problems, there’s a way to get past them.

    Counseling Counseling Counseling.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 9, 2009 @ 7:27 pm

  250. I LOVE the morning Poke Poke Poke. What better way to start the day than with some lovin from my man. No problem at all doing that on a daily basis.

    Now I don’t know if this will work as well in reverse (since you are a man and I am a woman), but I can recall once being told “I am not in the mood”. My response was “Okay dear. Well, I am going to have an orgasm. You are welcome to join in or just watch. The choice is yours.” After a minute of watching, there was joining in.

    On a more serious note, what gives me the greatest pause about your current wife is not that she is withholding physical intimacy from you, it is that she is attempting to misuse the gospel to use it as a weapon against you. The gospel is a shield not a sword. Her comment represents her clear misunderstanding of the purpose of the gospel. Not only is she clearly damaging the marital bond, but she also runs the risk of interfering in your relationship with the gospel. I don’t think that makes God very happy.

    Please know that things will be very different in your next marriage. Because you will both be divorced/widowed/non-virgins, you will be able to have very frank discussions while in the courting phase to determine sexualy compatability. You will also be able to have frank discussions about all of your respective needs and desires. That will lead to greater satisfaction for both of you.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 9, 2009 @ 7:28 pm

  251. To clarify: When Alliegator and others say, “find out about her needs” we are not talking about Maslovian needs in the strictest sense (i.e., what she will die without), right? I think we have agreed that those “needs” are not really needs. Or have we?

    Comment by teancum — January 9, 2009 @ 7:35 pm

  252. Hi Apogee,

    Thanks for your perspective. It’s given me a little more insight into my husband and I’m grateful for that.

    I am going to try to be a “real religious man.” The atonement, I am confident, can heal my marriage.

    Are you familiar with J. Ferrell’s The Peacegiver? Nothing about sex, but much about marriage: I very highly recommend it.

    If she has been going along (for 20 years!) with a sexual pattern that she is unhappy with, then there are some major underlying issues here…abouve and beyond the sex. Your wife may or may not even be aware of this.

    If you do manage to address these issues together, your marriage will be stronger and more meaningful than ever (no hyperbole here).

    Kindness and patience will go a long way towards maintaining a relationship strong enough to work these things out. This is an acutelly painful time for each of you, and you will each need kindness from the other as you deal with this pain, individually and together.

    Unfortunately, it can be hard to give freely while being told you’re inadequate as a spouse (which each of you are). Imo, this is one of the major areas where the atonement comes in.

    In the short term, it may go a long way to focus, your comments to her on gratitude for her willingness to _double_ her desired frequency (from once a fortnight to twice a week), which may represent a significant sacrifice.

    I love what you said about ‘getting in the way opening the door for each other’. If you can both even both even desire to work towards doing this, then there is a bright future for both of you..
    very best of luck, for everythig.

    Comment by Amber — January 9, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

  253. I know people come into discussions like this with their own experiences, but I hate to see advice for divorcing when there hasn’t been any kind of counseling.

    People who are hurting do things they might not do if they had a better way of expressing their hurt. You throw away a lot of good things when you don’t take a little time to try to heal the hurt.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 9, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

  254. (and yes, teancum, when I said needs, I meant, what she needs to truly be happy in life)

    Comment by Alliegator — January 9, 2009 @ 7:41 pm

  255. I am a life-long member of the Church, have held several responsible administrative positions, and have sat on disciplinary councils on many occasions on the ward and stake level, usually as a result of someone’s failure to keep the Law of Chastity to one degree or another.

    My eternal companion just finalized her disposal and divorce of me after 34 years of marriage in order to facilitate her marriage to her junior high school lover (before she joined the Church) with whom she had been secretly having an affair for a couple of years before I left our home over a year ago.

    Mere days after I moved out, her lover flew into town and bought her a lavish “Hearts on Fire” engagement ring. When I cleaned out our home (sold during the divorce) I encountered many symbolic and flamboyantly sexual messages that she left behind there for me to find in order to stick her finger in my eye, and let me know in no uncertain terms that she had succeeded in landing him, and that they were having a “really good time” together.

    He was married as well for decades, and after my former wife looked him up and began corresponding with him, they began their adulterous affair. Had anyone told me even months before i left our home that my wife was committing adultery while we were still sleeping in the same bed, I would have thought they were either playing a very cruel joke on me, or a were a prophet.

    I trusted my ex-wife implicitly, and had been totally faithful to her in mind and deed. To say that my mind reeled to and fro like a drunken man when I realized what she had been up to is the grossest form of understatement.

    In the throes of dealing with what I had found in our former home, I contacted her lover’s wife, who I assumed had already been discarded as well. I broke down into tears when she responded that she had no clue as to what those two had been up to. My letter to her was her first intimation about all of that, and when he was confronted, he readily admitted the affair with my wife.

    This dear woman and I have become good friends over the last several months, a sort of two-person recovery group from betrayal after a long-term marriage, and we seem to share the same values as regards notions of fidelity, love, trust and what a marriage should be about.

    Neither she nor her now ex-husband are members of the Church, and the fact that my ex-wife continues to adhere to the Word of Wisdom, and declare herself to be a member of the Church (she got him to stop drinking beer and wine), was perplexing to his ex-wife who told me: “I know it’s because she’s a Mormon.”

    I wrote to her and pleaded that she not judge the lot of us “Mormons” by my then-wife’s actions in premeditatedly and calculatingly seeking out her husband, communicating with him, enticing him, seducing him, breaking up their marriage, robbing her of her husband, and destroying her home and dismaying her and their grown children, etc.

    Mid-life crisis’ gone wild? Who knows. At this point, I find myself caring less and less about the mechanisms involved than I do about healing, moving on and eventually finding someone (in or out of the Church) who shares my values and is at least mature enough to be honest with me about what they really want out of life and marriage.

    (I have never been one for the “support group” scene, but I have found that CoDA (Co-Dependents Anonymous) is based upon gospel principles, and is a very supportive and loving environment in which do do some introspection and self-discovery for anyone seeking insights into what they may have contributed to the destruction of a relationship, as well as a means of preventing such from happening again in the future. The Light of Christ attends those meetings.)

    But to the point — my ex-wife and I always enjoyed a healthy, active sex life, although as we grew older the frequency (but not the intensity) tended to lessen somewhat. I actually thought the period right before she kicked me to the curb was a period of renewed awakening in our sex life. I now realize she was merely using me as a training dummy to get herself all schooled and ready for her new lover. Ouch!

    Yes, woman need sex as much as men, but unfortunately our “puritanical” and incorrect notions about sex and its place in our lives here in mortality has become warped and twisted beyond anything recognizable. Go figure. Not only have the treasures of the earth been co-opted, so have all the rest of the legitimate and God-given gifts, blessings and opportunities that come with having a mortal body in this second estate.

    I do not know why the Brethren have not spoken out more positively about the “thou shalt’s” but instead spending so much time focusing on the “thou shalt not’s” as regards sex within marriage. Maybe it is due in part to the tsunami of filth and wickedness that has engulfed mankind of late, and in their role as watchmen on the tower, they are, as they should, continuing to raise their voices and speak out strongly with the voice of warning to a world on the brink of drowning in its own filth.

    In some ways, we are left to figure out sex within marriage all on our own. In a corrupt and imperfect world we are laboring under the legacy left us by the traditions of our fathers (and mothers) which are incorrect (and unworkable), as well as the intense media bombardment that tells us that in order to be happy, and have joy and rejoicing, we have to do and be such-and-such. It is hard, without the Spirit, to obtain any useful information in such an environment.

    And I realized after I left our home that revelation was something I didn’t get much of in decades due to the constant contention and unkind feelings that inhabited our home. I was led to reflect on the Prophet Joseph’s story of how when he was translating the Book of Mormon, he had a spat with Emma. When he tried to translate, he could not until he first went and made up with Emma. That principle likely applies in our homes and lives as well, and i have come to believe that “contention” in even the least degree, restrains the Spirit of the Lord in our homes and lives, not to mention in our communities and nations.

    Meanwhile, the adversary reaps souls in the whirlwind that is increasingly sweeping across the land.

    As I read several of the posts, one thing that hit me over and over again was that a signal factor that was missing in my failed marriage was frank and honest communication.

    We had a good, active and satisfying sex life, remember? Both my ex-wife and I regularly got what we each needed from that. So where did we go wrong?

    I have come to believe that both husband and wife have to be ready, willing and able to step up and be totally honest with one another about ALL aspects of their union.

    My ex-wife and I were obviously approaching sex in our marriage from a very superficial level and that totally escaped our notice in some way. Sex did not bind us together, or bring us to the point where we became one flesh. Sure, we had great sex, but somehow, we never really connected with one another at some deeper level. Not even after 34 years of practice.

    I hope we all understand that sex in marriage should never be viewed by any of us who have knowledge of its place in eternity as anything “dirty”, “shameful” or wrong in any way, at least not when it is kept within the bounds the Lord has set. I have to believe that it can be something that can bring a husband and wife together and much closer than any other power on this earth.

    Anyway, that is what I hope I will find one day, with a woman with whom I can truly see eye to eye, instead of merely mouthing words and platitudes and feeling secure in the social culture of the Church, because in that, I have deluded myself that merely because I am an active member who was married in the temple, that I can let my guard down. In my future dealings with women, I intend to adopt the Lord’s advice to be “wise as a serpent, harmless as a dove” in my choosing of another wife. My first assignment at that didn’t turn out the way I planned.

    Comment by zeezrom — January 9, 2009 @ 7:45 pm

  256. Oh man, I second the recommendation for “The Peacegiver”. That is a life-changing book. Truly incredibly. It would not be a bad one for every single couple to read …… a few times….

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 9, 2009 @ 7:48 pm

  257. “The atonement, I am confident, can heal my marriage.” No sir, the atonement will not heal your marriage. Only you and your wife working together can heal your marriage. The atonement may help you to unload the burden of your wife’s sins, and vice versa, but please understand that the healing of your marriage, if possible, must come from a joint commitment of you and your wife to heal this marriage into something that is not only satisfying, but fulfilling and marvelous for the two of you. Please do not place the burden of the success of your marriage on the atonement, Christ or the gospel. Place that burden where it rightly goes, on you and your wife.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 9, 2009 @ 7:55 pm

  258. Please do not place the burden of the success of your marriage on the atonement, Christ or the gospel. Place that burden where it rightly goes, on you and your wife.

    I feel like that is what the Atonement does, though. One of the most central aspects of the Atonement, I’ve found, is that I am as low as the dust. I am so far from perfect, and the ideal “me” is impossibly far away. It is only that humility that allows the Atonement to work through you. And, I think, that humility is the only thing that can build up a successful, loving marriage.

    So, just a technical note, but I definitely wouldn’t separate the Atonement from very hard personal work. I think they are necessarily inclusive.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 9, 2009 @ 8:05 pm

  259. I’m sorry, zeezrom. So very sorry for your experience. Been there and felt that level of betrayal and pain.

    Sex did not bind us together, or bring us to the point where we became one flesh. Sure, we had great sex, but somehow, we never really connected with one another at some deeper level.

    That is a very deep piece of wisdom, very valuable. I came to the same conclusion at the end of my first marriage. Yes, sex is a very powerful tool to affirm and cement a deeper connection. But just as changes in interest or frequency in sex doesn’t always indicate marital breakdown or lack of love, it’s equally important not to assume that a good sex life automatically indicates a good marriage. Just as you say, it’s the level of honesty and acceptance two people can accommodate within their relationship.

    Comment by Kimberly — January 9, 2009 @ 8:14 pm

  260. Wow! Over 200 comments before I even knew this topic existed. It doesn’t seem like any stone has been left unturned, and I think several people may have already gotten to the heart of the matter. Apogee, you sound like a great guy and I applaud you for your candor and willingness to take criticism and try some of these wise suggestions.

    I hope it’s okay if I offer some of my own thoughts in a slightly different direction (and if they don’t apply to your DW, Apogee, perhaps they may apply to some of your friends’).
    * p.s. I’m in my 30s, been with my DH for 5+ years, and I’m a doula & childbirth educator by profession–not a marriage expert, sex therapist or even a mother–just so you know my perception here.

    1: Just a guess, but your wife may be going through the early stages of pre-menopause (NOT menopause), which strikes some of us as early as our mid-30s. You’re no stranger to female hormones after 20 years of marriage and a handful of kids, but this can feel like uncharted territory for some couples. As much as I normally abhor the suggestion that a woman is “just being hormonal,” I can’t disagree that hormones are powerful little buggers, and appreciating how our bodies respond to them can do a lot for our understanding of sexuality (Keep in mind also that every woman matures uniquely, despite the life-pattern that’s generally sketched out for us). Don’t use her changing body/hormones as an excuse or a crutch — and by all means, don’t hold it against her or blame her for something so beyond her control — but do what you can to understand them and work them to your advantage! (I highly recommend the book, “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” by Toni Weschler. Its primary aim is learning how to avoid/achieve pregnancy by observing a woman’s cycle, but it has invaluable information about how our hormones manifest in our sex drive as our bodies mature. Another beauty is “Women’s Bodies Women’s Wisdom” by Christiane Northrup).

    2: Speaking of hormones, as a survivor of “hormone therapy” for infertility (yuck!), I can attest that wacky hormones can effect a woman in surprising ways. For example: despite how much I love and adore my husband, and despite how much I enjoy lovemaking, there are days I can’t stand even being in the same room with him. Even hearing him breathe is a turn-off. On these days, I honestly feel that I would be quite content to never have sex again. I’ve thought and said things under the cloud of a hormonal shift that are not only uncharacteristic of me, but fundamentally untrue (no matter how true it feels at the time). Please be patient. It’s nothing personal. Then there are other days when my libido is so insatiable that it seems that no level of passion or vigor will ever be enough to fulfill me. Again… patience; nothing personal. Men’s hormonal fluctuations (and most healthy women’s, for sake of argument) are less likely to manifest in such extremes.

    3: Depending on the age of your youngest child I think it’s only fair to consider that your DW just doesn’t have the same sexual energy that she had 20 years ago. With the relentless demands of motherhood and housewifery (not to mention the aforementioned likelihood of a new hormonal rebalance in the mix), who can blame her? I don’t know how many kids you have or how old they are (id your DW still nursing a little one or has she recently weaned?), but it’s not uncommon for mothers to feel like they give, give, give everything they have to everyone around them every minute of every day, and sex is just one more tax on their body that they just can’t physically/mentally/emotionally spare more than once a week. If that. Give to her (say, a backrub in the shower, or just a chance to take a nap by herself. something more personal than housework and diaper changes, which–not to belabor the feminism in the room–is less a favor than a responsibility. it’s your house too. they’re your kids too. but I digress) and maybe she’ll be able to gather up the stamina to “take” from you. so to speak. : D

    4: Falling-in-love sex (or “newlywed” sex) is not the same as being-in-love sex (or “lifer” sex). I realize this is a no-brainer, but I think it bears consideration after 20 years of marriage that perhaps your “same-old same-old” just ain’t cuttin’ it. Mix it up! *wink*

    5: It’s already been said, but I really hope you try to get to the root of your wife’s displeasure with sex. It’s really sad that it took her this long to tell you about it, but I hope you can give her credit for being honest with you. I’m sure it was painful for both of you. If counseling is too uncomfortable, perhaps–if you’re able to–take a weekend away together, with no expectation of sex, so you can devote uninterrupted time to start an open dialogue about your marriage. You might come to a new and clear understanding of each other and breathe some new energy into your relationship. Let things unfold naturally and in their own time. Be patient. I don’t see either of you being at fault. I just see a sad situation in an otherwise good marriage that deserves to be saved, and good people who have important needs that deserve to be met.

    Good luck, you guys. : )

    Comment by Lady — January 9, 2009 @ 8:15 pm

  261. I am sure this probably has been posted (I am only at 74 reading) but I can’t resist anymore. First I read 1 Corin 7 with my husband and neither of us interpreted it the way the OP has. In fact my husband laughed at that interpretation. (I am so grateful for him) And even if you do, I disagree with the thought that GA’s have agreed with it. I have this quote from David o McKay-

    “Let us instruct our young people who come to us, to know that a woman should be queen of her own body. The marriage covenant does not give the man the right to enslave her or to abuse her or to use her merely for the gratification of his passion. Your marriage ceremony does not give you that right.” President McKay Gospel Ideals p471

    That being said. I feel for you I really do. The things your wife said are really out of line. I hope you two can find a solution for it.

    I second the suggestion of reading Hollands Of Souls Symbols and Sacraments. It is wonderful. (I also don’t think it supports the OP’s interpretation of Paul but. . . )

    Comment by Amy — January 9, 2009 @ 8:22 pm

  262. Pres — (#245) Oh, I agree. Life is better with good sex as a component. Then again, life is worse with lousy resentful sex. Which is why the whole topic becomes such a minefield I suppose! I think EVERY couple should be willing to talk openly about their sexual relationship and work for its improvement. I mean, what possible reason could anyone find NOT to make things better, even if they’re already quite good? Even fraught with complication as my sex life may be (along with nearly every other couple, in some way or another), I’m grateful for a theology which celebrates rather than denigrates sexuality. Here’s hoping our culture eventually catches up with the theological possibilities! Woohoo!

    And you know, a lot of the reasons you listed for how sex is a “need” apply to women as well. I imagine (though am not certain) that most marriages have seasons during which the wife rather than the husband has a higher sexual drive. Even when that’s not the case, and even when she may not be especially libidinous, having your spouse “come on” to you in a non-boorish fashion re-affirms the notion that you are loved, cherised, and (ahem) fantasy-worthy. Plus women like dopamine as well :).

    Comment by Janet — January 9, 2009 @ 8:58 pm

  263. I just found this gem and thought I would share it.

    http://sunstoneblog.com/2008/09/29/when-virgins-collide/

    Comment by Shannon — January 9, 2009 @ 9:05 pm

  264. Apogee –

    Two questions, along with an apology if I’ve missed clear explication elsewhere. I have strep and a fever of 102:

    1) Doesn’t the reduction of marital relations to the equation “Don’t demand sex; only ask nicely and don’t every say no” functionally eliminate the first part of the rule? When “no” ceases to become a viable option, a polite request becomes a demand. And that is unacceptable. It is, as I said earlier but which you ignored (somewhat but not entirely understandably) in favor of lumping the assertion in with my unfortunate medical condition, just as maritally destructive as abstinence. Heaven knows abstinence = maritally destructive. I suppose the sexual Golden Mean is an elusive little beastie. Thus we must pursue it :) .Still, if “no” isn’t on the table, any request is a demand, yes?

    2) I don’t know how to ask this delicately, so here we go: Doesn’t having sex with a spouse you know is spiritually, emotionally, and even somewhat physically unwilling take the satisfaction out of the act except at the most base level? I get why constant rebuffs would enervate and emasculate one’s ego, but doesn’t “pity sex” do the same thing in a slightly different way? And if not, why not?

    Comment by Janet — January 9, 2009 @ 9:08 pm

  265. This is an interesting discussion to read. As a single woman in my late twenties I can understand on an intellectual level that once you are married sex isn’t wrong, but the problem is that sex has been a “No” for so long it has been put on the shelf with things such as alcohol - things other people enjoy but are prohibited. The problem with describing sex as in comment #191 to a driver’s license is when others around you have been driving for a long time. Eventually you don’t even dream of a car and you are content with walking.

    I’m trying to escape from that mindset. Surprisingly what has really helped has been pole dancing classes at the local fitness club. For the first time I feel like I feel like l am a sexual creature and I have an outlet to express that sexuality, but in a way that doesn’t violate my temple covenants. I hope these classes can save me from later therapy down the road when suddenly sex (ie alcohol) is not prohibited. I want it to be a fun experience, not terrifying.

    I know this doesn’t address Apogee’s question, but since I’m living the Law of Chastity (Law of Celibacy as you get older…) I can’t give much sexual advice anyway!

    Comment by Carrie LC — January 9, 2009 @ 9:11 pm

  266. Thanks for the link Sunshine!

    Comment by Goodstuff — January 9, 2009 @ 9:51 pm

  267. Janet (#262)

    A minefield indeed! What’s good for the goose may very well be good for the gander. I was just explaining a few insights about the “needs” issue. Lousy, and resentful relations are maybe worse than none at all from a guy’s viewpoint, but just barely. At that point it is time to change something. Maybe being single would be easier at that point as there would therefore be no pent up hope.

    ‘Nite.

    Comment by pres — January 9, 2009 @ 10:40 pm

  268. I’ve read the first 100 comments and will try to read the others later. But I wanted to add my two cents.

    Apogee, I’m actually quite sympathetic. I think you framed this in an unfortunate way in the OP, what with the scriptural citation and the never say no thing. I would put all of that aside.

    But I have known a number of marriages where the wife doesn’t want sex, or wants it only very rarely. In these situations I know of, it’s not a matter of the husband forcing things or not washing the dishes or being sweet enough or paying enough attention to foreplay. All the advice you’ve gotten on this thread is great advice–for the rest of us–but my impression is that none of that stuff is going to help the situations of you or your church friends you alluded to.

    In the cases I’ve known, the women simply had warped views of sexuality, quite frankly largely deriving from negative messages about sex from their church upbringing. They had internalized Standards Night and couldn’t let it go.

    I thank God that my wife and I don’t have these issues and are well matched sexually. In the one particular case I’m thinking of, a very old and dear friend of mine, I know for a fact the husband was an amiable sweetheart, and the wife just thought sex was dirty and disgusting. He and his first wife divorced, and he is now very happily married to a well adjusted Mormon woman.

    If I were in your position, apogee, it would be counseling first, and if that didn’t help, divorce. (Most advice columnists will never mention the divorce word; that’s why I love Dan Savage, because he’s more realistic about untenable situations.) Sexual intimacy is very important to me, and if my wife desired me so little that over a period of years she insisted on sex only once or twice a month and no more, we wouldn’t be well matched as a marital couple and would get a divorce. (You wanted Manuary, you got Manuary!)

    Which raises an interesting issue. Since I have seen this kind of imbalance in so many Mormon marriages, I wonder whether it is really a good idea to marry with no concept of reciprocal sexual compatibility. If I were in that position, I’m not sure I would want to run such a major risk without at least talking about each other’s feelings and preferences and desires pre-marriage. I know this is radical, but to me it might even be worth it to face some temporary church discipline to make sure you are well matched. (Oh the horror! A radical idea, I know.) Because my perception is that there are a lot of Mormon couples who are really ill matched in terms of sexual libido, and got into the marriage with no way to determine that beforehand. And it is a huge, huge problem.

    Anyway, best wishes and good luck to you!

    Comment by Kevin Barney — January 9, 2009 @ 11:00 pm

  269. I read a lot of women in here making excuses for your wife’s behavior. Please do not think that all LDS women and mothers have these feelings. There are many of us with healthy natural libidos and desires who see sexual intimacy as a beautiful way to show our love and devotion to the man in our lives.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 9, 2009 @ 11:08 pm

  270. Comment to No. 259:

    Kimberly, Right on! and thank you. You have hit the nail on the head.

    Verbal and other forms of communication in marriage such as the kind word or touch, the heart-felt kiss before leaving, the slammed kitchen cabinet door, the “look”, the barely audible murmur of disapproval, the joyful: “Hi, Honey!” upon returning home, etc., are so much more important than I ever realized, and I wish I had paid much better attention to some of those, especially the negative ones.

    (At times, I think it takes a two-by-four such as I have experienced to get my attention as to what is truly important in this life.)

    If I could say one thing to Apogee and his wife, it is that no matter how dismal things may appear, and whether they believe it or not, their marriage is still “fixable,” and they should muster the courage and the faith to be willing to do whatever may be required in order to preserve it.

    As anyone who has gone through a bitter and vicious divorce will tell you, if your marriage can be repaired, that is vastly preferable to a divorce, and in my experience, there is no such thing as an “amicable” divorce.

    Comment by zeezrom — January 9, 2009 @ 11:09 pm

  271. Whew. Just read all the comments. Here are a few bits I have in response:

    1) there is a lot of “do the dishes, watch the kids” stuff (some of it from me, even!) … but I think the point of that stuff isn’t the dishes or the kids, it’s the attention DH gives to what *I* want. He sees me, sees my needs, helps me with them. SUCH a turn on. For a lot of women, that may be dishes or kids. Laundry in my house. But for other women, it could be totally different. It’s about *noticing me* and *seeing me.* Not the dishes, themselves.

    2) Paul was totally a douche with regards to women. Why are we even *citing* him when it comes to sex?

    3) Mirena IUD. I’m in love with that thing. It’s more effective than a tubal ligation and I haven’t had a period in almost a year. (Because I SO get the fear of pregnancy thing)

    4) Victoria’s Secret edible massage oil, cherry flavored. The idea of oral sex made me gag before this stuff. Praise Vicky.

    And is it just me or does spending three hours reading about sex make you feel more frisky? Geez. Maybe all us frigid wives *should* be reading romance novels.

    Comment by Isis — January 9, 2009 @ 11:30 pm

  272. I haven’t read all the comments–so I apologize. My simple take is that it is way out of line for a married person to accuse his/her spouse of spiritual defect for wanting sex. However, I also think the used Pauline scriptures are taken way out of context–and as others noted, they are questionable resources anyhow (said chapters).

    As a married woman, I don’t deny that men and women often have differing libidos, however it seems strange to me that a woman would turn down a good orgasm. I suggest (oversimplifying-I know) that if your wife had an orgasm at least 2/3 of the time it could quite possibly increase the frequency of sex.

    Comment by my 2 cents — January 9, 2009 @ 11:40 pm

  273. I think you’re right on about reading romance novels or other sorts of things to get you in the mood, Isis. Women seem to respond better to non-visual evocative or descriptive material. If it takes that to arouse one into feeling ready for some intimacy, so be it! I wouldn’t look upon this as anything inappropriate- of an internal revving up. (As long as it’s not demeaning, extreme, or objectifying to women.) And I’m sure your husbands will appreciate reaping the benefits…

    Comment by DVK — January 9, 2009 @ 11:41 pm

  274. Apogee, I appreciate your candor and your sadness even as I’m appalled by the views you have expressed.

    I think it’s a great example of how patriarchy harms men as well as women. Of course you are shocked, hurt, and unhappy at finding out that 20 years of sexual intimacy was largely unwelcome! The “submit with a smile” mentality prevents honest communication between spouses, and this kind of situation is a consequence. And of course she’s unhappy– she’s endured 20 years of unwelcome sexual intercourse and has obviously reached some sort of breaking point.

    I think you should consider the possibility that your wife is having a pretty significant religious life crisis here. Imagine this conjecture: After investing 20 years in the idea that submission will make everything fall into place, she’s come to the conclusion that that wasn’t true, the promise is false, it doesn’t work that way. So she’s been “consenting” for her entire adult life, and where has it gotten her? To the brink of divorce– and things are bad enough that she’s willing to seriously consider it! It’s pretty earth-shattering when a realization like that dawns. This might be a bigger spiritual issue for her than you realize, especially if you’re having serious doctrinal disagreements (I take it she’s not quite the Paulite you are) and she doesn’t feel she can look to you as a religious authority or at least as a religious companion. As well as losing confidence in your commitment to her happiness and to the continuation of your marriage.

    So what’s your plan? Wave Paul around, argue her into exhaustion, extract a grudging acquiescence and do it to her, knowing all the while that she’s feeling incredibly violated and trying not to cry or vomit? That can’t be it, right? Is that really what you want? If not, you’re just going to have to get over Paul. Because I think she’ll choose have sex with you when she’s well and truly convinced that it’s a choice in your eyes as well as hers. If she knows you’ll leave her over it, the threat will always be there no matter how “nicely” you ask.

    Also, if you can’t be celibate, how did you get through military service without committing adultery? Lots of men all over the world are celibate, and it won’t kill you to be one of them. You say you need sex, you may really believe you need sex, but maybe you just really really want it, and don’t feel strong enough to do without it. But you can.

    I want to emphasize again that I’m utterly, utterly appalled by your view that women ultimately do not have the right to refuse sex. I would certainly never have sex with a man who espoused that . Can’t you have any compassion for how soul-crushingly awful unwanted sexual intercourse must feel? And how one must come to feel about the person demanding it? Maybe you haven’t really tried to understand her perspective. What if she asserted the right to give you twice-weekly enemas or something? Try to get your head around it, because in my opinion it is your demand that is the very grave sin, and will yield harsh judgment and place you at great peril.

    Comment by z — January 9, 2009 @ 11:46 pm

  275. Apogee - just a thought: It sounds like you do and have done many things for your wife outside of the bedroom - help with the housework, buy her flowers, etc. Have you ever considered the possibility that the things you have been doing don’t work for her? Or maybe don’t work anymore? That is, if the sexual arrangement you two have had for the past 20 years has changed, could the things that communicate your love to her best have also possibly changed?

    I have loved the book The Five Love Languages to help me assess and reassess what things I can to for DH that will give me ‘more bang for my buck.’ Good luck.

    Comment by that1girl — January 9, 2009 @ 11:54 pm

  276. I’m very late to the discussion…it took me the better part of the day to read though the comments during breaks from my tasks. I enjoyed reading the different perspectives.
    1.

    Someone else mentioned emotional connection. I asked my wife if I made a quest to be more spiritual, REALLY guided by the Spirit instead of checking boxes, would that enhance our emotional relationship. (I did not even mention sex, btw). Stunned silence, and then she said, in so many words, “Duh.”

    In my experience there is more to emotional issues than being “REALLY spiritual”. Absolutely, the Atonement is applicable to any and every situation, but we are not Christian Scientists here. There is a time and place outside of church and scriptures for addressing emotional and relationship issues. I hope you don’t confuse the emotional with spiritual, because they can be very different things.

    2. NOW - I don’t say this as an accusation or to start a thread-jack, but rather for education’s sake for Apogee as well as any women and men dealing with addiction in their relationships.

    As a daughter and former partner of sex addicts, and recovering co-sex addict and sex and love addict myself, I have to agree with #46 Anon111 that some bells went off for me, too. I’m not saying that you are or aren’t dealing with some form of addiction here, but there are some attitudes of entitlement and manipulation that, unchecked, could definitely lead that way. Underlying any addiction is an attitude of entitlement and resentment grown out of unmet needs. Sex addiction is not solely related to pornography. I hope someday that discussion of sex addiction from our General Authorities will not be mostly confined to pornography - there are myriad ways that it can manifest itself, and sometimes it doesn’t even have to “look” bad, but rather can *feel* dysfunctional to one or both partners.
    It is a devastating situation, both from the perspective of a child as well as that of a partner and addict.

    Patrick Carnes has written some excellent books about sex & co-sex addiction as well as sexual anorexia, and the process of recovery from these conditions.

    3. Some other books that I have benefited from in my own process of understanding relationships and sexuality are:

    Between Husband and Wife by Stephen E. Lamb & Douglas E. Brinley

    His Needs, Her Needs by Willard F. Harley, Jr.

    The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman

    What your Mother Never Told you about S-E-X by Hilda Hutcherson, M.D. (A GREAT book for any woman, especially anyone who was never taught/encouraged to understand and explore her own sexuality and the different aspects of sex)

    He Did Deliver Me from Bondage by Colleen G. Harrison (Using the Book of Mormon and the Principles of Jesus Christ as they correlate with the Twelve-step program to overcome compulsive/addictive behavior and other problems)

    So that’s my $0.02.
    (hopefully those links worked and it’s not just a bunch of garbledy-goop around my book titles!)

    Comment by whirlygirl — January 10, 2009 @ 12:02 am

  277. Kevin Barney hereby gets a previously non-existent award for referencing advice columnist Dan Savage on a Mormon Blog. I wonder if DS would find it funny? (DH and used to read his columns aloud; haven’t stumbled upon them in any of the SLC stuff since we moved, however).

    Comment by Janet — January 10, 2009 @ 12:04 am

  278. Re: 254

    Alliegator: Like Apogee needs a healthy sexual realtionship to be truly happy in his life? I realize the “needs” debate happened well up the chain. Maybe we have agreed a satisfying sex life can be a need, if a satisfying emotional life is. Or am i missing something?

    Comment by teancum — January 10, 2009 @ 12:17 am

  279. #24 wow, I could have written that (except that only 19 years married) - and the part you wrote about not having that type of relationship in this life really hit home because I think it will be the same for me. No sex for 6 years now (I think… I lost count!) but with kids still at home getting a divorce is not so easy as it sounds. Counselling is out in the culture we live in (plus “d”h would never go for it - he wont even talk about stuff like many of you have mentioned). So, as someone else asked later on (sorry can`t find it off hand) “why the heck did you marry him in the first place?” - well, I was young and stupid and lonely I guess - and not a member of the church (as “d”h still isn`t “religion is for weak people”) - so we (=I) hang on to the hope that things will be worked out and be better in the world to come - and if anyone tries to seal me to him, I`ll come back and haunt them (lol)!!!

    And for those of you who have a good relationship with your spouse - one where you can be totally open and honest and talk about anything, treasure it with all your heart, mind and soul because it is so precious ^-^

    Comment by anonymous for this one — January 10, 2009 @ 12:18 am

  280. Apogee, I’ve read all comments and haven’t noticed anyone mentioning Tantric sex. You said your wife believes frequency cheapens sexual union, which she views as an ideally spiritual experience, right? That seems like a good fit with philosophies which try to instill sexuality with spirituality. Mormonism has a good basic doctrine to support such union, but nothing in the way of particulars. Maybe Tantric practice would serve as helpful both because it’s new (and novelty can spur interest, woohoo!) and because both the experience and the teleology mesh with her idealized sexual views.

    If the practice lives up to the hype, you might find less sex more satisfying than you have previously, just because the afterglow (curse that stupid band for ruining the word forever) supposedly lasts so long. Not sure–could backfire as well, I guess.

    Anyone have a good book recommendation on Tantric sex? If she’s got issues of repression, of course you’d want one sans photos and perhaps sans illustrations (though geez, illustrations = helpful!). Maybe if you guys do get into therapy the therapist might even know of a good book.

    Comment by Janet — January 10, 2009 @ 12:42 am

  281. #244 - Sorry teancum, bigmama has no honey.

    Comment by bigmama — January 10, 2009 @ 1:01 am

  282. Apogee, if you decide to try Janet’s suggestion (#279), I would suggest you have a female friend of hers suggest it (if you know of one who would agree and to whom your wife might listen). Coming from you, I’m afraid it would be seen by her as a selfish attempt to substitute infrequent “kinky” sex for the more frequent “traditional” sex you really want.

    I think it’s a good idea, but you would have to be very careful in how you try to approach it. Actually, waiting for counseling and/or therapy might not be a bad idea, since I think that is the most crucial thing both of you can do - and how you make love is sure to be a topic there.

    Comment by Ray — January 10, 2009 @ 1:05 am

  283. I love Dan Savage. Loved the column he wrote in memory of his mum.
    Apogee: What do male priesthood holders do when they need advice on a major life decision? Is it possible that someone you trust can listen to you spill your guts and give you a priesthood blessing? I don’t think asking for a little advice from the Lord to save your marriage would be out of line at all.

    Comment by Josette — January 10, 2009 @ 1:21 am

  284. 3) Mirena IUD. I’m in love with that thing. It’s more effective than a tubal ligation and I haven’t had a period in almost a year. (Because I SO get the fear of pregnancy thing)

    I hated my IUD and finally got it taken out last month. It was the worst thing for my sex life. It squelched my sex drive into oblivion, and because it shifted into a bad position made sex decently painful (worse than postpartum) and caused me to be very sore afterward. Not directly sex related but it also made me bloated, and a b**ch.

    I suspected it was causing problems and that is why I took it out, way before I had originally planned, but man I did not know how much it was screwing me up. Anyway, just a heads up, the Mirena does not work well for everyone

    Comment by anonforthis — January 10, 2009 @ 1:58 am

  285. For all the Paul-bashing going on here, there is actually very little the women have said that contradicts his advice. He counsels in 1 Cor 7:4 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence, and two verses later, In 1 Cor 7:6 he counsels “Defraud not one another except with consent for a time”. Taken together, these do *not* mean that it’s a wife’s duty to consent to sexual relations whenever and however often her husband pleases.

    It can be taken with better reason to advise that withholding sex within a marriage should not be used as a form of control or punishment. It also applies to these unilateral “I’m tired of sex, and I’m never going to do it with you again” that might almost as well be divorce decrees.

    It also seems that there’s nothing wrong with voluntarily abstaining for an indefinite period while other problems, (medical, emotional, spiritual, whatever) are worked out, with fasting and prayer.

    One thing that I didn’t fully appreciate until my own divorce can be expressed in a couple of lines from an author I like: “How could you tell the difference between not liking sex, and not liking the only person you’d ever done sex with?” and “intimacy of the flesh was easy, after the far more terrifying intimacy of the mind”. In the sex-saturated world of today, many people don’t appreciate the emotional, or spiritual, or other aspects of intimacy, and think that sex is all there is to it. That’s only the tip of the iceberg.

    Comment by Confutus — January 10, 2009 @ 6:58 am

  286. Confutus–

    Thank you for bringing some balance back to the Paul issue. There is a very good sermon that puts 1 Cor. 7 into very good perspective, especially on the sex issues. http://www.pbc.org/files/messages/4843/3586.html. An excerpt:

    Not once does he ever suggest that you have the right to demand sex from your mate. What he says is that what you have the right to do is to give him or her, as a gift from you, the fulfillment of these sexual desires — and the responsibility you have is not to your mate, but to the Lord to do so. It is a matter that Paul puts on the basis of the relationship that a believer has with his or her Lord, and it is the Lord who asks us to give this gift to our mates in marriage, and thus to make it a basis of mutual fulfillment and satisfaction. In other words, sex in marriage is a gift that you are to freely offer to each other. It is not a selfish, self-centered satisfying of your own desire.

    If we understand that it is going to make a big difference in many marriages, and, if you reflect on it a moment, you will see why. I suggested last week that physical sex is given to us to teach us how to relate to one another psychologically, and how to relate to God spiritually, and this is true in this area. Sex is so designed that we have no control over it ourselves within marriage. We need another to minister to us, and that is designed of God in order to teach us how to relate and fulfill the basic law of life which Jesus put in these terms when he said, “If you attempt to save your life you will lose it,” {cf, Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 17:33, John 12:25}. If you try to meet your own need, if you put that first in your life — “I am going to have my needs met” — the result will be that you will lose the joy of life and you will lose everything you are trying to gain. Instead of finding fulfillment you will find emptiness, and you will end your years looking back upon a wasted experience. You cannot get fulfillment that way.

    That is not merely good advice — that is a law of life, as inviolable as the law of gravity. You cannot beat it any way you try. The only way to find your needs met and yourself fulfilled is to fulfill another’s needs. Throw your life away, Jesus said, and you will find it. That is what sex is all about. It is designed not to have your needs met, but to meet another’s needs. Thus, in marriage, you have a beautiful reciprocity. In the process of devoting yourself to the enjoyment of your mate, and to giving him or her the most exquisite sense of pleasure that you can, you find your own needs met. That is what is meant by Verse 4, “For the wife does not rule over her own body, but the husband does; likewise the husband does not rule over his own body, but the wife does,” {1 Cor 7:4 RSV}. That is not saying that you are slaves of one another. It is saying that the power to give fulfillment to your mate lies with you. He or she cannot fulfill himself or herself in this area. It is impossible. That is why sex with yourself, solo sex, is a drag. It does not go anywhere. It is a dead-end street. It is a momentary, mechanical fulfillment that leaves you psychologically unfulfilled. The only way those psychological fulfillments can be met is by your partner giving you the gift of fulfillment and you giving him or her the same gift.

    Sorry for the sloth and the big quote, but why reinvent the wheel?

    BTW, DW and I had a long conversation last night and, ahem, other activities. And it was VERY mutual. I am exhausted. I will start improvement with myself and God and work forward from there.

    Comment by Apogee — January 10, 2009 @ 7:18 am

  287. Apogee,sounds like you are finding a better place,but felt I could’nt leave this without sharing a last thought-that this is really a challenge to your mutual capacity for intimacy-a shared challenge.Deeply painful to you both,but i think conceptualising it as a struggle between male and female perspectives will only distract from the real work to be done.It’s great that we get a chance to grow.Be tender.

    Comment by wayfarer — January 10, 2009 @ 7:36 am

  288. One more thought I want to share. If you already own her, then how can she can make a gift to you of herself? If you claim ownership then you steal all those gifts from yourself, the ones she could give you day after day for eternity, the ones that are the most precious gifts anyone can receive.

    My mom once told my dad something very true. You can bully people into doing a lot of things, but you can’t bully someone into loving you.

    Comment by Tatiana — January 10, 2009 @ 9:45 am

  289. 278- Teancum- Ideally both parties in a relationship are going to get what they “need” to be happy. Unfortunately, Apogees wife is having some issues with sex. So until those issues are resolved, Apogee is going to have to sacrifice his own needs. Not fair, obviously, but sometimes we do things to help people we love, and to fix broken relationships.

    When we do those things, we often end up with a better relationship than we started with.

    *I agree that men (generally) “need” sex to feel loved by their partner, but to say that they can’t go without sex if their partner needs some non-sexual attention while she figures things out, or while they get some counseling, I think that’s a serious misplacement of priorities.

    I was talking with my brother about the emotionally focused therapy (adamf linked to it above a ways) and he said something to the effect of: We have primary and secondary emotions, and usually we express secondary- anger, frustration, etc… instead of primary- the desire to feel loved or accepted.

    I really recommend looking into the EFT. People do things they don’t really want to do when they’re hurt, fix the hurt. Life can be so much happier for both partners.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 10, 2009 @ 11:40 am

  290. In “Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus” (a book that has great advice half the times I read it and is insufferably sexist half the time I read it), the author basically states that (all things being equal–let’s not start on “what if I’m paralyzed from the neck down, all right?) men and women “keep score” on what they are getting and giving (and please, no threadjack on keeping score. Yes, we should serve, and love, and such, but it’s awfully tedious feeling that you give and give for nothing in return. And feeling that way results in a lot of unhappiness).

    For instance, if a man changes a diaper, earns money, or holds a door open, he gets one point from his wife. A man gives 10-40 points at once to his wife for not criticizing, willing sex, etc. Here’s the crux: A man will give until he thinks it’s even. A woman will give until she is dry. However, since a man stops giving when it’s roughly even (and this is NOT a criticism, it’s simply a GENERALIZED STEREOTYPE), they assume that if the woman is giving, she must be behind, or, in the case of sex, just doin’ what men and women do.

    So, how does this relate? Well, I think Apogee’s wife may have given sex until she was dry. She may feel she just has no more to give. Note: this is not Apogee’s fault. Women need to communicate before they have to give ultimatums. However, both of them now have to deal with the fact that she may feel she has given, given, given, and now can give no more. Hopefully, both of them can figure out how to fix the situation.

    And on the topic of needs (not to beat that horse any deader): it seems to me that men do have a physical need for at least the release of sperm. Evidence: lack of sex = wet dreams. However, as Apogee has stated, he’s not interested necessarily in just a release of sperm (the need), but also in the emotional, loving connection to his wife (the strong desire, equal for men and women but often expressed sexually by men).

    Comment by Molly — January 10, 2009 @ 2:13 pm

  291. People discussing how bad a divorce is for children also need to consider how bad a bad marriage is for children. Is the way that your spouse treats you the way you want your children treated by their spouse? That is a personal decision.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 10, 2009 @ 3:15 pm

  292. My opinion will probably not be popular, but it’s mine for a reason.

    THERAPY. Go to couples and individual therapy. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

    When I met my husband, fell in love with him and we married, the chemistry was overwhelming. After giving birth everything changed, because I had severe post-partum depression. All traced of desire that I had once felt undeniably and constantly vanished nearly overnight. I chose to live in denial for a very long time and by the time I was suicidal and willing to receive help our marriage was in further ruins due to his affair.

    I never deserved to be cheated on. Period. I’m not at fault for his disgusting betrayal. But as his wife I was not holding up my end of the bargain. No, not the physical end. The intimate. By intimate, I mean I wasn’t communicating with him at all, I was keeping secrets, I was betraying him in my own way with my fear and mistrust and lies.

    By the time I got honest with myself (and him) it was almost too late to salvage our marriage. Thanks to an amazing therapist and a lot of hard work, we are happy again. Our sexual needs are in sync and easily fulfilled, because I can actually feel desire again, and he knows it. I’m not so entrenched in my own misery and self-loathing, which allows me to be a loving, caring, and sharing partner in every way.

    Things are just as they were when we met - why should they change? Your desire and love for your partner should be a constant. Of course it will have its ebb and flow, but the complete lack of intimacy and her staunch refusal tells me that something deeper is at play here. I was an empty void for so long, incapable of feeling anything except an unending pool of despair and self-hatred.

    I realize that not every woman will be suffering from a hormonal imbalance or depression, but I do caution you to not write these things off as possibilities. They are much more prevalent than we are willing to admit. There should be no shame in receiving help, or even considering the fact that something more serious might be behind this and exploring what it could be.

    I disagree with the notion that men only need the physical act of sex. I know for my DH, he is much more emotionally needy than I am, and that is perfectly fine. I’m willing to give him the attention and affection he craves because I love and adore him. The feelings I have for him make it easy to fulfill his needs, because he also fulfills mine (as different as they are from his). It never feels like a compromise. It feels like love.

    Comment by Jill — January 10, 2009 @ 3:22 pm

  293. This far into the comments, there’s little to add. But I’m reminded of a joke, relating to male “need”, FWIW:

    What is the male equivalent of PMS?

    SRS (Sperm Retention Syndrome)! :-)

    I remember once actually while in the throes of it trying to analyze it. It was like little guys with hammers, hammering away at my brain… “don’t ignore me! don’t ignore me!…”, etc. It’s truly awful! Thankfully it abates with age. If your marital problems are limited to sexual frequency, my advice is, keep working on your marriage and avoid divorce like the plague, because, as has been pointed out already, divorce sucks (I know this personally, despite being in a fabulous 2nd marriage), and the sexual frustration will eventually subside, assuming love and kids and good things are still part of your relationship.

    Comment by Rich — January 10, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

  294. I read this post last night and haven’t stopped thinking about it since. My feelings on this topic are so complex that I don’t even know where to begin and I haven’t read all the posts.

    However, as Still Confused wrote above: It’s true that a bad marriage is far worse than a divorce. If your wife treats your needs with such disregard makes me wonder how she treats you in other areas of your relationship. I can speak from personal experience that there are far worse things for children than a divorce.

    Another poster also wrote that the more one lives without sex, the less one craves it. And I agree with that, too. When my first marriage was really bad, I can count on less than 2 hands the times we had sex in 3 years. I lived in the guest room. And I hated my husband for many (most ligitimate) reasons. When we finally divorced and I started dating again, the first time I kissed a man was thrilling and it was like I was alive again– raging hormones, giddiness, excitement, ecstacy. And I’ve never forgotten it.

    With my current husband, I’ve made a personal promise to myself that we would remain intimate and have a very active sex life. Sometimes I initiate sex when I don’t feel like it at all. But it keeps our marriage fresh, fun and alive. It keeps me feeling sexy and it keeps him happy, and it keeps us intimate. We still makeout in the kitchen while I’m cooking dinner. I believe that many women’s sexual desires and needs are less than their husbands but we all do give and take and physical intimacy is so crucial in a relationship.

    I don’t have answers for you. From your post, it sounds like your wife has some major issues going on. It could be that she resents you, feels ugly about herself, is completely exhausted. It could be chemical. Therapy is crucial for you both. If she refuses to go, I think that pretty much sums it up and you have some big decisions to make.

    A marriage counselor told me something I will never forget: A strong, happy marriage is the best gift you can give your children. When I realized that giving my daughter that with her father was impossible, my decision was made. While the divorce was painful and expensive and traumatic, it was necessary and the best thing that ever happened to her and to me. Because now I have a good marriage and she finally has a great father figure in her life.

    I will pray for you as you decide how to proceed from here.

    Comment by Lulubelle — January 10, 2009 @ 4:18 pm

  295. I’m never going to get through everything here, so I’m just going to jump in.

    1) I agree that no one should be told that saying “no” is wrong.

    2) I do, however, think that saying “never,” as Apogee’s wife seems to be doing, IS wrong. My heart goes out to them both. Without getting too personal, I can see where she may be coming from. I can understand her desire — maybe even need — to have less sex. On the other hand, would we be supporting her refusal to make sure the children were fed? I don’t mean just “what if she refused to cook?” because there are other options — like Apogee could cook or they could go out to eat or order in. But there are no such options for Apogee here! He does have a legitimate — more than legitimate, God-created and ordained — need that she’s not just denying but denigrating and stigmatizing! I pray that counseling can help them both.

    One book that I recommend is “The Five Love Languages.” Apogee, from his account, seems to be doing a lot to help her and to show his love for her. But maybe the things that speak to him of love don’t speak to her. This book could help them get on the same page.

    God bless you both, Apogee.

    Comment by Proud Daughter of Eve — January 10, 2009 @ 4:23 pm

  296. I have never commented on a forum online before (I don’t like talking to people I don’t know, it freaks me out slightly) but I felt the need to throw my two cents into this section.

    I love sex; I will be frank about it because you have all been so amazingly honest I feel I should be too. I am a woman who has a high sex drive. Is it biological? Or is it because I know how good it is or can be that I want it on a regular basis? Who knows, all I know is that I enjoy it, probably more than my Husband does sometimes. I am very connected to my sexual being, I don’t feel ashamed by it and me and my husband talk about it quite often so that we both know what we want, what we feel and what we desire.

    Communication and exploration are very important in a healthy sexual lifestyle in my humble opinion. Now perhaps I am in a different situation from others because I was a sexually active adult before I became an LDS. I don’t know but perhaps because I was raised ‘in the world’ as the phrase goes I have never considered the idea that sex is something to be ashamed of, a duty to perform, something base or dirty, not that the church teaches that it is but I have spoken to a lot of members who have very limited views on sex. I feel sad for women that I have spoken to that have never enjoyed sex, they may have had and involuntary orgasm but they have never revelled in PASSION. Do they have selfish Husbands who do not see to their wives climax? Maybe. Are they disconnected from their own sexual being due to ignorance of inhibition? Perhaps. But without communication, frank and honest conversations will these situations ever resolve themselves? No, definitely not.

    Having children however can alter a woman’s sexual persona. This I think is a concept some men (not necessarily the ones open enough to post here) don’t understand. After I had my son sex was the last thing on my mind (and remember I love it) because I not only had post natal depression but I felt hideously ugly and just yucky! But not only that, I felt different about myself, I was no longer a saucy young woman I was a mother. And it took me time and contemplation and personal hard work to make the transition from saucy young woman to sensual adult mother, to be happy with my new body and new role and open enough to explore this new point in my life.

    Sex is a good thing and in my opinion and an important part to a happy marriage. It does however have a stigma attached to it for a lot of women who buy into the idea that sex is an activity that only men need and enjoy. It isn’t. Also I will go back to the word exploration as well because I will be honest however much I like sex if it was just missionary position over and over I don’t think I would be quite so happy but thanks to an open minded relationship and no fear of recrimination our sexual relationship is varied, intimate and mutually satisfying. It’s not on a timetable, like others have said sometimes its more often, sometimes its less often for a variety of reasons, the key is to communicate and be honest with each other.

    Comment by Le Ginge — January 10, 2009 @ 4:36 pm

  297. On a slightly less serious note:

    Molly, said in #290: “I think Apogee’s wife may have given sex until she was dry.”

    and we all know it’s no good dry.

    Comment by Ray — January 10, 2009 @ 4:48 pm

  298. I just wanted to register my agreement with Still Confused. Divorce sucks, for sure, but when parents remain in a bad marriage “for the children,” they’re not necessarily doing their kids any favors, either. Growing up with their parents modeling a bad marriage might just be more damaging to the children in the long run.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — January 10, 2009 @ 5:00 pm

  299. Re. Ray, 282
    Were you a woman in a past life? Or were you one brother among seven sisters? Or do you have 5 daughters or something? It is SO refreshing to see a man that actually does seem to understand so much of the female psyche. You should hold sessions for all of our husbands. :)

    Apogee, if such a friend is available, it would be a GREAT idea to have a female friend approach your wife about this and make suggestions. Girl talk is generally anything but oppressive. Best of luck.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 10, 2009 @ 5:16 pm

  300. Apogee, you sound like a great man.

    I agree with those who say that trying to find a resolution through resort to an interpretation (inaccurate, in my opinion) of the scriptures that men should ask nicely and women should never refuse will never lead to a mutually satisfying result.

    This is entirely speculation, because I don’t know you or your wife, but it could be that your wife is stuck in whatever views she developed about the importance (or unimportance) of her own desires, feelings about her body, and feelings about sex during those days when you were younger and you did not take her “no” seriously. I am not attributing any malevolent intent to the younger you in begging and teasing her to have sex, but her recent reference to that situation makes me wonder whether they had a negative and still-lasting effect on her. Perhaps in those days, it was hard for her to say no, and when you did not take the initial “no” seriously (or at least thought you could talk her out of that feeling), she resigned herself to the thinking that apparently you believed that your desire was more important than hers, or that duty was more important than her feelings, etc. The fact that these “persuaded encounters” led to her experiencing an orgasm did not necessarily mean that they were what she really wanted or that they were a net positive experience for her.

    Anyway, I’m not trying to give your wife an excuse for not practicing the principle of forgiveness. But these “persuaded encounters” may have led your wife to adopt some harmful beliefs about sex and/or about your attitude towards her own feelings, and these feelings and beliefs may persist now, even though you admit the mistakes of the past. Even if she says she has forgiven you, the damage may still be there. You both may have to open some old wounds to make things heal correctly.

    Again, this is all speculation on my part. Of course I have no knowledge as to whether this is what happened between you and your wife.

    My comment is more autobiographical than anything. I am newly-married to a wonderful man who, unlike me, came into the relationship with sexual experience. The first few honeymoon months are over, and, although I enjoy sex, I am learning that my DH would like to have sex more frequently than I would. I’m not sure how to proceed. (Obviously, open conversation is important.)

    In general, I am quick to discount my own feelings and desires to the point of not sufficiently standing up for myself. I am learning that such conduct, on a consistent basis, can have a harmful effect on my marriage, especially in the area of sex.

    If I don’t feel desire and my husband is in the mood, I’m certainly not opposed to go ahead with sex with a “I’m not really in the mood, but this one’s for you,” attitude. He is a considerate lover, and I can still enjoy the experience emotionally and physically. But I can only do that so often.

    DH adores me, and he has a forceful personality (unlike me). When DH tries to change my mind after I have turned him down, or he emotionally withdraws when I say no, it’s really hard for me (and yes, I know it’s difficult for him). I tend to resort to thinking that, because my “no” was not as graciously received as I would like, he believes that his sexual well-being is more important than mine. (Not healthy thinking, I know.) The next time I really want to say no, I am less inclined to do so because it is easier to just go along with it than deal with the tension that results from having said no. But if I do that, I will just disappear during sex. It’s really not a good feeling to have sex while you are thinking that your partner, who says he adores you, in the bottom of his heart doesn’t really care about you because, if he did, he would really care about the imbalance of desire. I can even climax during this type of sex, but it still doesn’t feel good. I know that if I continue this resentment will build inside me and sex will just be something that I tolerate. I fear that these negative feelings might solidify quickly, and that, 1, 2, 5, 10 or 20 years down the road, I too may feel justified in setting similar rules about frequency because it will be the only way I can make sure that I am heard on the issue and have any control over my own body.

    Thankfully, (1) DH and I do enjoy sex with each other–it’s just a frequency issue we have to work out; (2) I have a helpful therapist who is helping me navigate this new territory; and (3) my husband’s a great man who is determined to be the best husband. We also see a great couple’s counselor. We don’t openly discuss sex there (maybe we will someday), but the “impasses” we do address together with the therapist are really just non-sexual versions of the dynamic that arises in the bedroom. So the help the couple’s therapist has given us has helped us in bed.

    I’m not putting the blame on my husband for this one. We both have a lot to learn, and it’s really not about figuring out who is right and who is wrong; it’s just about figuring out how we, with our own particular histories and vulnerabilities, can meet each other’s needs, sexual and other. Good luck!

    Comment by Post-Honeymooner — January 10, 2009 @ 6:05 pm

  301. Apogee, congrats on a good night. Weekends are so much better when begun in such a manner :) .

    Comment by Janet — January 10, 2009 @ 6:15 pm

  302. I want to add another opinion on the ‘have one of her girlfriends talk to her” idea. I wouldn’t do that.

    For one, you don’t know what her girlfriend is *actually* going to say to her. Two, if I ever found out that my husband was routing his sex ideas for me through my friends then I would feel doubly betrayed no matter how well the sex idea may have worked out. Three, if I had the feeling that intense desire for sex was depraved such behind the scenes string pulling for the purpose of getting sex would only confirm my feelings.

    Comment by Starfoxy — January 10, 2009 @ 6:20 pm

  303. In fact, disproportionate self-consciousness over the church’s patriarchy, and the self-deprecating nature of many church leaders regarding the inferiority of the male gender (”I tried over and over again, but it takes my wife to finally get it right,” etc), tend to exacerbate the problem.

    I really dislike this “self deprecating nature of many church leaders regarding the inferiority of the male gender.” I don’t feel sexually emboldened by this attitude. I don’t think it encourages women or men in developing a true partnership.

    Comment by Post-Honeymooner — January 10, 2009 @ 6:24 pm

  304. 300 comments and no one has bothered to quote “Annie Hall” …I may as well:

    [Alvy and Annie are seeing their therapists at the same time on a split screen]
    Alvy Singer’s Therapist: How often do you sleep together?
    Annie Hall’s Therapist: Do you have sex often?
    Alvy Singer: [lamenting] Hardly ever. Maybe three times a week.
    Annie Hall: [annoyed] Constantly. I’d say three times a week.

    Comment by Lady — January 10, 2009 @ 6:41 pm

  305. I’ve only skimmed the comments, so I may have an incomplete picture. But I get the sense that Apogee has been seriously misunderstood. Unless I’ve missed something, he doesn’t seem to be claiming that his wife owes him sex by virtue of his priesthood. 1 Corinthians 7 doesn’t say that sex is the wife’s duty to the husband, but that neither spouse should “defraud” the other of what the Lord wants them to enjoy together. This isn’t about priesthood or duty, but about love. When we love one another, why would we want to deny them what is supposed to be the incredibly sublime emotional joy which comes with sex?

    Yes, in real life there are times when we can’t just drop everything and have at it, and each partner should be understanding of that. But does that mean we can’t still recognize the importance of embracing this very vulnerable aspect of our spouses? I say this as a spouse who has on several occasions declined my wife, so I’m not perfect myself. The reasons usually seemed valid at the time, but in retrospect I’ve realized that the rejection my wife has felt hurt her more than I had realized, and I could and should have been willing to overcome my hesitation.

    I agree, it is not really correct for Apogee to make this an issue of gender. While we seem to have embraced the notion in our culture that good girls don’t want sex, many cultures have embraced the notion that women have libidos (Aristophanes’ comedy Lysistrata revolves around a scheme among women of Greece in order to end the Peloponnesian War via a sex strike, and the subsequent difficulty of the title character in maintaining the resolve of the women to hold out). There are plenty of couples out there in which the woman has a higher sex drive. I think many of our attitudes are a bit messed up by the opposing forces of a wildly hypersexualized popular and commercial culture on one hand, and a religious culture often overstating its case in order to protect their children from that popular culture on the other hand.

    In any case, it may well be that sex will have to be a low priority until Apogee and his wife resolve the issues they have about sex (which may stem any number of causes: Apogee’s wife may have experienced some sort of sexual abuse or trauma in earlier years, or she may simply have a limited perception about the nature and role of sex in relationships, or Apogee may be a selfish lover, or he may just be a jerk as a husband–we just don’t have enough information to know). But in no case does that make his essential yearning to share in the joys of sex with his wife wrong.

    Comment by Derek — January 10, 2009 @ 7:52 pm

  306. #297-Ray, you crack me up.

    Comment by Firebyrd — January 10, 2009 @ 7:58 pm

  307. Kevin and Stillconfused are spot on. It does the children no good for parents who are unwilling to love each other (or at least for one of them to be so unwilling) to stay together. Nothing. I wish my mother had had the courage to leave my father and find someone who would have loved her for who she is. Whatever the challenges, I’m pretty damn sure they couldn’t have been any worse than what I experienced.

    Comment by Derek — January 10, 2009 @ 8:03 pm

  308. Am I the only one that has no idea what the title to this post means? I guess I could figure it out with some concentrated effort and a dictionary. Sigh… sometimes I feel like such a poorly educated dweeb here..

    Comment by Patti — January 10, 2009 @ 8:04 pm

  309. Am I the only one that has no idea what the title to this post means?

    It was an attempt at irony. We are very self-conscious in the LDS Church not to appear to be misogynistic (woman-haters). The priesthood is a gentlemen’s club (sans cigars and brandy). And some LDS men have proven to be cads. However, LDS women can just as easily be nasty toward husbands, on a number of issues. And the one at hand is sex. The posts have pretty much swept the floor clean of the possible viewpoints. The title reflects that for every yin there is a yang.

    Yes, I recognize that a woman can be hurt by a man’s refusal to have sex with her (I recognize it. Never seen it. Hard to conceive of it. Like volcanoes on Io, the scientists tell me they are there, spewing methane into space, but I ain’t never seen it). So the entire discussion can be flopped. But I am coming at it from my perspective (a man’s).

    Comment by Apogee — January 10, 2009 @ 8:31 pm

  310. Anyway, I’m not trying to give your wife an excuse for not practicing the principle of forgiveness. But these “persuaded encounters” may have led your wife to adopt some harmful beliefs about sex and/or about your attitude towards her own feelings, and these feelings and beliefs may persist now, even though you admit the mistakes of the past. Even if she says she has forgiven you, the damage may still be there. You both may have to open some old wounds to make things heal correctly.

    Again, this is all speculation on my part. Of course I have no knowledge as to whether this is what happened between you and your wife.

    DH adores me, and he has a forceful personality (unlike me). When DH tries to change my mind after I have turned him down, or he emotionally withdraws when I say no, it’s really hard for me (and yes, I know it’s difficult for him). I tend to resort to thinking that, because my “no” was not as graciously received as I would like, he believes that his sexual well-being is more important than mine. (Not healthy thinking, I know.)

    DW? Is this you? DId you sneak into the blog without telling me?

    Comment by Apogee — January 10, 2009 @ 8:35 pm

  311. The conversation is waning a bit and I really haven’t said anything until now … but just want to give a big fat ditto to Derek, Kevin and StillConfused regarding “staying married for the children’s sake” When my first dh and I divorced, the final straw was realizing that my son absolutely could not be raised in the home he was in. However messed up he is because of the divorce is much less than he would have been by being raised in the horrid situation. It wasn’t a decision made lightly (3 bouts of marriage counseling, numerous bishop’s visits, hours in the temple by me), but in the end, divorce was the best answer for everyone involved - especially my child.

    Comment by lyn — January 10, 2009 @ 9:00 pm

  312. Oh… I guess I could add that one of my LDS friend’s sons has come up with an elaborate “second life” that he spends with his (pretend) stepfamily. If my son was projecting horribly negative vibes about the situation, I doubt his friend would be pursuing this “stepfamily”

    Comment by lyn — January 10, 2009 @ 9:10 pm

  313. Ok. I have had a few days to think about this one, talk to my husband and generally stew over it. I haven’t read all 300 posts, so I am not sure if it has been said. But….ready…

    I think this is crap. EVERY marriage has problems and that is why communication is so important. I see how you and your wife sat down and discussed this, but you still came away with the feeling of her refusing you and then going on to say that it was a wife’s duty to say yes. I think you missed everything your wife was saying. Am I missing something here?

    Marriage is not 50/50. I don’t care how feminist or mormon or housewife you are, sometimes you need 80, sometimes you get 20…folks it is all over the map. If this is what your wife wants right now, then you need to be supportive of it. She may change her mind in the future. You may change your mind. I agree, her comment of, “you’d be willing to wreck their lives over three days?” is totally valid and frankly, I can’t argue with her. At this point, she needs some support, not condemnation and threat of divorce (which is what I can only determine how she feels from her statement).

    Comment by Katie — January 10, 2009 @ 9:14 pm

  314. As a wife who has been turned down, it hurts. I love my husband so I try to see where he is coming from and not take it too personally. We talk about sex alot and with some openness and research have come up with some solutions for my high libido that allow him to decide if and when he will “join in” that leave me satisfied and relaxed, instead of a raging volcano.

    Our libido’s were always much more evenly matched, but libidos all change with hormones, time, stress, and age. Mine went through the roof in my mid thirties when my kids went to school and my body wasn’t touched all day long. Finally I needed and wanted alot more sexual touch than before. At the same time dh’s libido went down. Ah well, time for all that communication, love and compassion marriage is all about. I don’t doubt that our libidos will change again at some point in our marriage, so learning to deal with this is all part of the being with one person long term.

    Apogee, Good Luck with your marriage and get to a counselor either together, separately, or just you alone. It will provide support and hopefully be educational.

    My husband’s suggestion is to remember that sex lives in it’s own house and duty can’t come over. If you have needs, jerk off. If you want to have sex more, own that fact.

    Comment by miles — January 10, 2009 @ 10:05 pm

  315. There is a scene in Annie Hall viewed on a split screen. One side Annie Hall is talking to her therapist. On the other side Woody Allan’s character is talking to his. She says he is just too demanding and wants sex all the time, at least three times a week. He says she is never interested and hardly every wants it, only three times a week. It was funny. If Woody Allan could win best picture with a movie about these kinds of problems in relationships, then it has to be really common.

    My husband and I came to an accommodation many years ago. He was unhappy because he didn’t think I was willing to initiate enough. I felt that he didn’t ever give me a chance to initiate anything. So we agreed we would take turns. At one point we went so far as to say on even numbered days one of us had the initiative and the other on odd numbered days. At one point he decided to wait for me to take the initiative before he would take his turn again. I’ll admit quite some time went by before that happened. But, it did happen. Eventually, I decided not to say no anymore. Things got a lot better. But, I had to come to that decision on my own. I think his patience and willingness to try accommodating my perceived needshelped me to do that.

    Comment by Claudia — January 10, 2009 @ 10:15 pm

  316. A few random thoughts:

    1. When I went to therapy, my counselor told me “I have to warn you, that the healthier you become through counseling, the more inclined you will be to end your marriage. Think about that very carefully before you proceed.” At that point, I realized that my mental, emotional, spiritual and physical health trumped my marriage’s ability (or right) to survive.

    2. I do think it’s an interesting thought that those in the church or other institutions that preach similar values may distort one’s views on sex. It would be hard to hear ones entire life growing up that ‘no sex no sex no sex’ was the way it ought to be then say “i do” and have a great sex life. Hmmm…

    3. A very close friend of mine (non member) confided in me that she hadn’t slept with her husband in two years and hadn’t given him sex one during that entire time. I asked her if he or she was having an affair. She said she wasn’t but wouldn’t blame her husband if he did given the circumstances. They ended the marriage shortly thereafter and she remarried, had a child and has a very active sex life now. But I thought that was interesting… she acknowledged that she had cut her husband off from sex and felt that if he went looking for it elsewhere, it was understandable. Ladies and gentleman: This really is a critical issue in a marriage. If sex disappears, I am not excusing this my any means… but doesn’t it make sense that sexual urges will manifest themselves elsewhere in maybe unhealthy ways… overeating, masturbation, porn, affairs, overspending… It’s just not healthy. ??? No answers, just a thought here.

    Comment by Lulubelle — January 10, 2009 @ 10:27 pm

  317. It does the children no good for parents who are unwilling to love each other (or at least for one of them to be so unwilling) to stay together.

    The big problem playing armchair marriage counselors is that we really don’t know Apogee and his spousal unit. But what he’s shared so far leads me to believe rather strongly that he OUGHT to be light-years away from even contemplating divorce, given all the baggage and repercussions it can bring to a family. Unless there are a lot more problems involved than sexual frequency, I don’t think ANYONE should be tossing around the “D” word here.

    Comment by Rich — January 10, 2009 @ 10:50 pm

  318. I find it interesting that a woman’s sexual peak is around 40 years old and a man is around 20. As someone in the 40 category, I can say that this is true for me. Can’t speak for the man’s side of the statement.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 11, 2009 @ 12:05 am

  319. Haven’t read every single comment but my thinking is similar to that of #241. What the OP gives us is a conflict over frequency, a failed negotiation, and a husband’s description of his wants.

    The void that we are circling around is the absence of discussions between husband and wife in which the wife describes her experience and understanding of their physical intimacy, describes her likes, and her desires. These are discussions in which she can speak freely without fear of being judged or of hurting feelings. Discussions that seek understanding and that seek greater emotional intimacy.

    Comment by Douglas Hunter — January 11, 2009 @ 12:17 am

  320. Apogee - so sorry for what you and your wife are going through! I think it is an important issue that you have shared here, and, like you say, it seems to be a widespread concern, impacting many marriages.

    #92 - Ray

    1) Why is sexual intercourse (which is what we have been discussing when the word “sex” is used) the only alternative when either a wife or a husband needs a sexual release?

    From a practical, larger-scale perspective, I think this is a good and interesting question, with potentially very worthwhile implications.

    Comment by thedancingnewt — January 11, 2009 @ 12:21 am

  321. DW? Is this you? DId you sneak into the blog without telling me?

    No, I assure you, I am not your DW!

    But if my comment hit home, I might also add that it would probably be helpful to learn from your DW how, and to what extent, the persistence of your younger years hurt her. You may feel unfairly blamed during that process, but resist any temptation to debate her feelings or go into self-defense mode. It would not be helpful for resolution. Instead, focus on really trying to understand her. And then, if she knows you understand (or at least acknowledge) the hurt that she felt, and that you are truly sorry that your actions caused that hurt, she can truly forgive you and heal (and perhaps see will see that, in her hurt, she misunderstood you and/or even contributed to the problem). A good therapist can help with this process.

    I don’t know how much your wife is like me, but more than anything else I want to be heard and taken seriously, with all my vulnerabilities, weaknesses, and self-doubt. I don’t want to be put on a pedestal. And given the particular pairing of DH’s personality and my personality, it takes work for both of us to make sure he hears my feelings and that they do not consistently take a back seat to his, especially around issues where he is most likely to almost blindly push for what he wants and I am most likely to perceive sharing my feelings as a risky prospect. It’s a challenge for both of us, but we are determined.

    My two cents. Best wishes!

    Comment by Post-Honeymooner — January 11, 2009 @ 12:27 am

  322. Yes, I recognize that a woman can be hurt by a man’s refusal to have sex with her (I recognize it. Never seen it. Hard to conceive of it. Like volcanoes on Io, the scientists tell me they are there, spewing methane into space, but I ain’t never seen it).

    Talk to the wives of men who’ve had serious illnesses. A lot drugs–even common ones like antidepressants–kill the libido. I don’t see my husband as any less manly because his MD/PhD program made him so tired that for a few years he turned me down far more often than the opposite. FAR more often.

    Still, it did hurt. But not in the same way you seem to describe–I felt fat, and ugly, and certain that his medical colleagues were smarter, savvier and cuter than me. The thwarting of my sexual urges was very much secondary to the self-esteem crisis (which was in no way his fault and was rather neurotic on my part). And a woman isn’t going to tell you about it because she will feel very disloyal to her husband, fearing you will conclude that he is either gay or impotent (or fearing that you will look at her and think ‘damn right, you’re hideous’). It’s as much an ego-crusher for we womenfolk as ye males, if for slightly different reasons.

    Another reason I think women don’t like to talk about their husbands turning them down? For men to say their wives say “no” might be painful, but it’s also a cultural commonplace for humor and male-bonding (see Annie Hall reference or pretty much any episode of that loathsome Raymond show). For a man to turn a woman down implies, in cultural parlance, that that the woman is too hideous for imagination. That’s not true, of course, but I’d bet it’s one reason women don’t talk about it much.

    Comment by Janet — January 11, 2009 @ 12:34 am

  323. You jestingly asked if your DW had snuck on to the thread. Any chance she’d want to share a level-headed counterpart? So our advice could be more rounded? So many comments show (in addition to cultural obsession with sex) a true desire to help, I think. Would a dialectic approach between the two of you better aid in that goal? (Don’t know you or her, so have no clue. Thought it was worth the asking.)

    Comment by Janet — January 11, 2009 @ 12:36 am

  324. I confess I didn’t get through all of the comments (there are only forty bazillion…), so someone may have already made a similar point. Oh well, here it goes.

    You stated that the title of this post was supposed to be ironic. Considering the content of the post, I find it much less ironic and much more revealing of your attitude in general. Misanthropy is hatred of people, while misogyny is hatred of women specifically. Basically it seems as though you are equating men (or yourself) with being human, with human needs and desires, and women (or your wife) with being something else, something other, with very different needs and desires, if any at all.

    I think if you focused less on your wife as a “woman” and more as a person like yourself, you’d begin to see some improvement in your situation. The fact is, while men do need sex in marriage–as do women–sometimes people, male and female, for various and sundry reasons, need to not have sex. If you really were the wonderfully spiritual man you keep professing to be, you would respect her NEED for less sex right now as you work through your problems. I mean, I see that this is painful for you, I really do, but you are not the only one with needs.

    Also, I may be missing something obvious, but where exactly does Paul say that wives should never refuse their husbands for sex? If it’s 1 Corinthians 7, you and I have very different interpretations.

    Comment by JS — January 11, 2009 @ 2:07 am

  325. Yes to JS.

    I know the poster didn’t intend this, but the peek into his brain and the claim that his brain represents the average male view of sex is freaking me out about having sex with my husband instead of the opposite. What if he secretly thinks I have no real religious right to say no? How is that not rape? I really hope the poster’s view isn’t normal.

    Comment by wife — January 11, 2009 @ 2:36 am

  326. […] In the moving on department, Runtu explains that the truth hurts especially if you’ve been an apologist for the other side. Aerin contemplates how our past informs our present. On the other hand, some just have fun with it, as with this SML classic If Joseph Smith Had The Internet (which definitely merits re-posting). And, continuing the tongue-in-cheek theme, we have a cheeky marital quiz (perhaps inspired by this treasure trove of marital advice…?) […]

    Pingback by Sunday in Outer Blogness: Religion, Politics, and Life Edition! | Main Street Plaza — January 11, 2009 @ 5:44 am

  327. Wow. What an awesome discussion. I just read every post. *snort*

    I don’t have anything substantive to add. Just, this … dude … if you’re married 20 years and having sex every fourth day … count yourself among the blessed and go get a hobby or something. Seriously.

    Oh, and some things preempt sex. If my wife and I could never have sex again - that would be really too bad - but, I wouldn’t for a billion dollars think of divorcing her. I’d miss her so much. Who would sit there so wonderfully absorbed in Dr Who on her laptop while I made myself Top Ramen. Really, I was going to say just plain old good conversation is as or more important to me. But I don’t even need that. I just need her nearby. ~

    Comment by Thomas Parkin — January 11, 2009 @ 5:50 am

  328. re: 324

    Technically, you are correct. Anthro is a Greek root meaning “human,” while andro is the Greek root meaning “male.” The title of the post should have been “Misandry as an Analogue to Misogyny.”

    Comment by Derek — January 11, 2009 @ 10:31 am

  329. My husband and I have awesome, excellent, perfect sex every single time we do it…but we don’t do it very often, at least by the standards set by Apogee and others here. Definitely not as often as several times a week as many here have mentioned. And I’ll be honest - I hold the cards when it comes to frequency. My husband has no desire to have sex if I’m not interested. The one time we tried to do it that way, we both ended up crying. I am very blessed to have a husband who is patient and considerate of my level of desire, who would never want me to submit to him in that disgusting way. If I don’t experience pleasure, it just isn’t worth it to him.

    Someone, I think Kevin Barney? made the “radical” recommendation that these things should be discussed before marriage. I think this is a great idea. My husband and I had many, many discussions of sexuality before we got married. But there’s only so much you can know as two virgins. I had no idea, for example, that my sexual desire would go hand-in-hand with my stress level, or that my stress level would exponentially increase after having two little kids at the same time as I’m working full-time and completing a degree. We couldn’t have known that birth control pills would destroy my libido in one fell swoop, or that, after quitting those nasty things, my libido would be completely dependent on my menstrual cycle, such as that two weeks of the month, I’m all over my husband, but the other two weeks, I have minimal interest. We also could not have expected that I would have a physical disability after giving birth to our first child, one that puts me into cycles of constant pain and overwhelming fatigue.

    My husband was a virgin when we got married, and he was pretty repressed. He had multiple orgasms several times during the first few years of our marriage. We never argued about sex, but it was something we worried about a lot, the first few years. If he asked and I said no, I felt like crap for saying no and he felt like crap for asking. But other than that one time (which was my idea), it never occurred to him to ask me to “do it anyway.” If it’s not a mutual experience, it’s not a worthwhile experience.

    Now he’s getting older. His libido has calmed down, though it’s still prodigious, and now we’re quite equally matched. I suspect that, as I get older, and especially as our kids get older, my libido will increase. My husband feels that he has “trained” himself, somewhat, to follow the pattern of my sex drive. He takes it when he can get it, lots of it during those two weeks. The rest of the time, he waits for my signal, and if it doesn’t come, he doesn’t complain. He knows it will come around again. He’s a man, not a child. He has learned the art of self-control by being selfless, utterly committed to my pleasure and willing to wait so that it’s really, really good when I finally overcome my pain or anxiety. When we make love, I’m just as committed to his desire. It’s this selflessness that has guided our sexual relationship from the beginning. I believe, as the lower-libido partner, that it’s just as hard on me as it is on him when I can’t conjure the desire out of thin air. It makes me feel awful. But he has never made me feel awful. It would be an incredible violation if he did, and if such behavior continued, our sexual relationship would implode.

    There has never been any sexual manipulation on our parts. My husband participates fully in the care of our children and home, and treats me wonderfully, not because he thinks it will get him sex but because that is what a loving partner does. If we never had sex (and we’ve gone through periods as long as six months without sex, when I was physically incapable) he would, and does, continue to do these things. I have never held the promise of sex over his head to coerce him into doing something. We have never used sex as a weapon. This is an important distinction.

    I feel for you, Apogee, I really do. Your wife did a rotten thing, essentially lying to you for how many years? and now expecting you to turn around and become a different person. Perhaps things would have turned out so differently if she had been honest from the beginning about her level of desire and had not submitted to you so that you came to expect this thing. But it makes me shudder to hear you calling upon some nebulous religious dogma to support your idea that your wife should continue to lie back and take it as long as you “ask politely.” Brother, you can never ask politely enough for such a thing.

    I have read this post several times and I keep coming back to one practical fact. You wish for your wife to submit to you sexually when she doesn’t really want it. What would that look like? Using her vagina for masturbation? She looks off into one corner of the room while you use her body for your gratification? That image turns my stomach. There is a spectrum of rape and you are on it.

    From the low-libido wife, here are some truths. No amount of dishwashing, diaper-changing or flower-buying is going to turn a woman on who is determined not to be in the mood or incapable of being in the mood. Rubbing her shoulders, playing soft music and insisting that you care only for her pleasure are simply going to drag out the violation of attempting to coerce her into having sex. The simple truth is that if you really love her, you will wait.

    Sex is important. When I feel physically or emotionally incapable of making love to my husband, my heart and body hurt for the intimacy and pleasure we are missing. But the simple truth is that these things happen in marriages, unprecedented, and our commitment to our marriages says that as long as we consider the marriage as a whole worth saving - and I believe that you do - we wait and try to work through these issues. This is not to say that I believe couples should stay together at all costs. I wish dearly that my parents had just divorced instead of subjecting me to years of observing their violent relationship and being tossed around in their drama. But it seems that the rest of your marriage is very positive. So isn’t it worth waiting, working on this?

    When I am incapable of intercourse, we explore other forms of intimacy. Sometimes these are sexual forms of intimacy, and sometimes they are not. My husband uses his hand if it gets bad enough. This is a gift to me, that he expels what is stagnant and continues to wait. He knows that I love him and that I need time. He gives me that time because he loves me and he’s willing to wait. He’s willing to wait because the rest of our marriage is awesome. It’s that simple.

    Also, read and reread what Thomas Parkin said. These are almost exactly my husband’s words, and no man I’ve ever met has so embodied a consciousness of compassion, forgiveness and love. Thomas Parkin is a wise man, and so is my husband.

    Comment by Anon #124,786 — January 11, 2009 @ 10:45 am

  330. I, too, was quite confused with the title of the post. I assumed he met to refer to misandry rather than misanthropy. But even if this were true, how does a woman’s lack of sexual desire equate to hating men? Most people don’t have a lot of control over their level of desire (as evidenced by Mr. Apogee himself).

    Comment by Chandelle — January 11, 2009 @ 10:54 am

  331. #307 (Derek): I wish my mother had had the courage to leave my father and find someone who would have loved her for who she is. Whatever the challenges, I’m pretty damn sure they couldn’t have been any worse than what I experienced.

    Don’t be so sure. When my former wife Ann remarried, she married a man who turned out to be emotionally and physically abusive towards our children. Some of them have struggles to this day (as adults) that I credit in part to that abuse (as well as to the divorce in general).

    #309 (Apogee) Yes, I recognize that a woman can be hurt by a man’s refusal to have sex with her I recognize it. Never seen it. Hard to conceive of it. Like volcanoes on Io, the scientists tell me they are there, spewing methane into space, but I ain’t never seen it).

    I have. My current wife, Becky, was previously married to a man who had longstanding pornography habits. He made it clear to her that they didn’t make love more often because she wasn’t as good-looking as the women in his pornography, and therefore he wasn’t aroused by her. Given the incidence of pornography use in society at large (including among LDS men), I suspect this problem happens more often than you may think.

    Comment by perigee — January 11, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

  332. I find the phrase “at her grave peril” quite threatening and confrontational, and perhaps that’s the problem here. Women don’t want to have sex because they’re bullied or threatened into it. Apogee - if I were you, I would be trying to come up with ways to make your wife have sex with you more. Is she tired? Does she feel unappreciate? Is there something you could do for her? You are not powerless, and if you leave her over this issue, you have no right to say that your hands were tied or that you had no choice.

    Comment by Heidi K Bialik — January 11, 2009 @ 2:25 pm

  333. Sorry… meant to say:

    “Apogee - if I were you, I would be trying to come up with ways to make your wife want to have sex with you more.”

    Comment by Heidi K Bialik — January 11, 2009 @ 2:26 pm

  334. So, in the end Apogee, what are your choices? What do you truly want?

    You have received the insights and opinions of many women and men. Have we helped you?

    In the end, your sex life is something for you and your DW to resolve. I wish you both all the best.

    Comment by Kalola — January 11, 2009 @ 3:01 pm

  335. I have read most of the comments and I am very surprised to note that no one has mentioned the book The Five Love Languages. Were I to attempt a summary of it here, it would not pique anyone’s interest, but trust that this book may very well revolutionize your (collective–every reader) view of affection in marriage. This book is even better when read and discussed as husband and wife.

    Apogee, what I am saying is this: as much as I am sure your wife appreicates your help around the house, it may very well just not be the kind of thing she personally needs to feel loved. This is also a method of getting to the “sex button”, if you want to put it that way. Before wanting sex, it helps if the person has their love bucket filled.

    Comment by Novice — January 11, 2009 @ 3:22 pm

  336. P.S. You may think you know exactly the way your wife feels love and affection (and you very well could, 20 years together being significant), but you–and she–may be extra surprised to find that it could be something you’ve never thought of. She might not even realize what she has been needing.

    Comment by Novice — January 11, 2009 @ 3:26 pm

  337. I haven’t read through all the comments but wanted to share a little bit….

    I can’t possibly know exactly what your wife is feeling/experiencing and won’t project….but I know from my own marriage that sex is hugely important and I hope you are able to find some resolution.

    As you mentioned, I don’t think your situation is unique and I think there are a lot of couples who experience issues when it comes to sex. I remember right after I was married I went out to lunch with some of my girlfriends- strangely enough we had all gotten married right around the same time. I remember the topic of sex coming up- a couple of my girlfriends expressed that sex wasn’t very pleasurable for them and at times painful. I think the sexual experience for men and women can often be very different…

    In my own marriage, sex has also been a source of conflict. My husband and I couldn’t have possibly known the struggles that could come with sex in marriage. Unfortunately, I have some trauma in my past and had no idea how this would affect our relationship. Early in our marriage I wasn’t able to enjoy sex- physically, emotionally, or mentally. My poor husband- 22 years old and just wanting to have some good sex! : ) It created a great deal of conflict and resentment and has been incredibly difficult to work through. At times, we both considered divorce, believing that we were not compatible. We were both committed to working through it and thankfully, have been able to. Today, we have frank discussions about sex and my husband has helped me enjoy sex and I believe we have a very healthy fulfilling sexual relationship.

    I don’t believe that your wife is/has experienced what I have but rather want to point out that these conflicts exist in many other relationships and do have the potential for being resolved…hang in there.

    I also want to point out that while I have found sex to be fulfilling and gratifying, I also believe that a person (male or female) has a right to say no to sex at any time, for any reason and that should be respected. Even in marriage. And that is not about feminism.

    This post has also made me wonder about those Latter Day Saints who are gay. This post reiterates again and again that having sex is important and necessary- and we proclaim to gay members that being gay is okay, as long as they are not engaging in gay relationships or having sex outside of marriage. And if it is really necessary for men to have sex on a frequent basis or are acknowledging the importance of intimacy, aren’t we setting up our gay members for failure?

    Comment by Christy — January 11, 2009 @ 3:41 pm

  338. I’ve gotta agree with 324 and 325. This post has been *haunting* me. Keeping me up at night and I’m having trouble getting past it.

    Apogee, I think you *are* the Mormon idea of a “good man.” But the problem is that for some reason, this stereotypical Mormon idea of manhood sanctions–even encourages and entitles–misogyny in the name of religion. Which hurts *everyone.* Misanthropy, indeed.

    Comment by Isis — January 11, 2009 @ 5:00 pm

  339. Apogee, I think you *are* the Mormon idea of a “good man.”

    As much as I feel for Apogee, I disagree with the implications of that statement. There are “good men” who struggle with any number of serious flaws. I do; Joseph Smith and Brigham Young certainly did; to some degree all of us fit that description. I see that as one of the wonderful aspects of Mormonism - that greatly flawed people still can be “good”.

    However, I think it’s overstretching Apogee’s situation (lots of kids but very little time spent with his wife) to describe it as anything close to a Mormon ideal. We get told CONSTANTLY to work for balance, and many Mormon men I know have sacrificed in some way to spend more time with their wife and kids. Frankly, that seems to be a big part of Apogee’s marital problems - a degree of selfishness relative to time management that has convinced his wife that he doesn’t really care about her.

    I have no problem believing that Apogee is a “good man” - but I have a real problem with implying that he is “the idea of a good Mormon man”. It’s a fine line, and I’m trying hard to not be judgmental, but the ideal of “a good Mormon man” doesn’t neglect his wife and children to pursue individuality to the extent that Apogee seems to have done.

    Comment by Ray — January 11, 2009 @ 5:17 pm

  340. Re. 327 (Thomas Parkin) and 329 (Anon):

    Best answers yet. More than just advice, you provide an actual model that Apogee can try to imitate. Thomas, your words gave me a little virtual crush on you.

    Apogee, I seriously suggest trying out the mindsets that these two demonstrate.

    I can’t imagine the hurt I would feel if my husband thought of leaving me because of something like “not enough sex”. Your wife’s comment was hurtful, yes, but you have to realize that it probably stems from a very, very deep hurt as well. If my husband hinted to me any of the attitude you’ve shown here, I would feel horrible. Is that all you’re keeping me around for? Is that what the basis of our deep, eternal love has always been? Do I have nothing else to offer you but my submissive, limp body? Yeah. I can guarantee I would respond with some kind of biting comment. And I would definitely be way turned off at any idea of having sex with you, once I realized how you felt about it.

    Seriously. Every time I think about your “at her grave peril” line, I want to throw up a little bit. I couldn’t stand to have my husband touch me if I thought for a second that was his perspective. (Thank heavens the idea would never cross his mind….. he’s more along the lines of Mr. Parkins, cited above.)

    Oh, and in my mind, it’s incredibly misogynistic.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 11, 2009 @ 5:53 pm

  341. I’m glad Christy brought up the implications for our gay brothers and lesbian sisters in her post #336. I was surprised no one had brought that up and was going to comment along those lines also.

    Whoever said life was either supposed to be perfect or fair? It seems awfully shallow and uncompassionate for an LDS man married twenty years to complain about having sex only two or three times a week when only a couple of months ago Mormons were emptying their bank accounts and pockets to ensure that gay people could never marry and have “legitimate” sex. If all men really do need sex every other day, shouldn’t we at least try to ensure that it’s not just straight men that have that sanction?

    I, too, am very grateful that my husband would never divorce me over something so petty. We’ve had stages where we’ve gone from eight or nine times a week to once a week, and each of us has turned down the other from time to time. Who cares? I’m not just a warm place to put it, and he’s not my personal dildo.

    Comment by Prefer not to leave a name — January 11, 2009 @ 6:50 pm

  342. re: 329 (and 339)

    I think you’ve said some very heartfelt and profound things here, Anon. And I see that you have expressed empathy with his position. I have a question: are Apogee’s desire for more frequent sex with his wife less valid than another person’s desire for more communication with their husband, or for more non-sexual touch? Would people be so quick to tell Apogee that they will wait for what they need if it were something other than sex? Would we be so quick to tell Apogee that he needs subsume his need, to give complete control of his need to his spouse were he the wife and the need was more romance?

    Maybe I’m inferring incorrectly, but the implication seems to be that sex is not as valid a need as other needs. If so, I think it is an unfair implication. I think that we as spouses should be striving to accommodate our spouse’s needs in all areas.

    Is sexual desire truly immutable? There have been times I wasn’t in the mood, but I agreed to sex to please my wife. I usually ended up just as happy as she.

    Just to be clear, I do recognize that there are times when circumstances simply do not allow for meeting sexual needs (time constraints, physical constraints, emotional obstacles). Neither party should be expected to drop everything on a moment’s notice to take care of their spouse, sexually or otherwise. But unless I’ve missed something, I don’t think that is what Apogee is talking about.

    re: 336

    Christy, your point about gays is one I’ve often considered, and is one of the reasons I struggle most with the Church’s position on homosexuality. We are not built to be celibate. I think the Catholic priest sex scandals which have surfaced so much in the past few years have a great deal to do with the enormous difficulty humans have with celibacy. It is perfectly natural for us to want to explore that side of our nature, particularly with people we develop intimate bonds, and so to expect homosexuals to resign themselves to a lifetime of celibacy seems very problematic to me. But that is a different post altogether.

    re: 338

    Men in the Church get very mixed signals, Ray. There is a undercurrent in the Church (primarily cultural) that men should do whatever it takes to “succeed” in their roles as provider. Between that undercurrent, the very nature of our Darwinian economic system where only the most dedicated get ahead, many men rationalize putting career far ahead of family.

    Whether or not Apogee falls into that category, I don’t think we know enough to say. It is certainly a possible reason for his wife’s emotional distance and reticence, and he should probably at least consider how much of a priority he has made of the emotional needs of his wife and children.

    Comment by Derek — January 11, 2009 @ 7:04 pm

  343. However, I think it’s overstretching Apogee’s situation (lots of kids but very little time spent with his wife) to describe it as anything close to a Mormon ideal. We get told CONSTANTLY to work for balance, and many Mormon men I know have sacrificed in some way to spend more time with their wife and kids. Frankly, that seems to be a big part of Apogee’s marital problems - a degree of selfishness relative to time management that has convinced his wife that he doesn’t really care about her.

    Ray

    Between that undercurrent, the very nature of our Darwinian economic system where only the most dedicated get ahead, many men rationalize putting career far ahead of family.

    Derek

    What it God’s name are you talking about? Oh, brother, you make me wish now that I had taken those offers in New York, so I could have millions now, instead of living where I do, with the job I have, that allows me a short commute and time with the family. You two have inferred the exact opposite of my circumstances, and this makes for a bitter pill, indeed.

    My wife and chose my career track–TOGETHER. We decided to have many kids–TOGETHER (I wanted fewer than she did). We moved to a new house that was not exactly what I wanted, but made her life MUCH easier. We try to date every week, and we take a mutual approach to housework.

    Some posters have correctly picked up that externalities don’t always (sometime ever) affect the bedroom.

    Bottom line, to quote DW: “A better marital relationship is a necessary condition to increasing our sexual frequency, but not a sufficient one.” Yes, she’s brilliant, and in this scintillating logical statement, summed up our marriage. Paraphrasing: become a great man, be what I would ever dream of, but there is no way that means that I will want to be with you more than I want to be with you right now.

    She could be hedging–maybe she’s waiting to see if I improve. But I think not. I think she’s saying not to bother with changing any of my ways if my goal is an improved sexual relationship.

    There are two ways to look at this. One is to forge ahead and try to be a better husband, with the knowledge that our sexual relationship will continue to languish (per her statements). This would reflect my own desire to be a better person, and rise above ay relationship difficulties with the hope that improved character will ease those difficulties (or my present emotional inability to deal with them).

    Or, I divorce her and find someone with whom I am sexually compatible. This second option allows me to to try to improve myself and have a relationship that would be more fulfilling and less hurtful.

    Comment by Apogee — January 11, 2009 @ 7:45 pm

  344. I’m going to recommend to DW that we see an EFT counselor nearby. Thanks, adamf. Since the most recent posters seem to be reading crazy facts into my life, and since I’m now being accused of looking for a living masturbation doll, I’ll take my leave. Thread’s dying out anyway. Thanks to you all, especially the ones who recommended counseling.

    Comment by Apogee — January 11, 2009 @ 8:02 pm

  345. Apogee, you are the one who said you spend lots of time away from your wife. You never shared the details in #342 in your post or other comments. Those details would have changed my last comment, but they weren’t available when I wrote it.

    This is why I have said more than once that I’m trying not to judge you or your wife - that I’m reacting only to what you have shared.

    Comment by Ray — January 11, 2009 @ 8:15 pm

  346. Apogee, as a single, active member of the church. Please tell me how one goes about finding another one who is “sexually compatible”. I am sure you felt at one time - probably before marriage- that your wife and you would be sexually compatible. No matter how long we date, we will always find new and not so wonderful things out about our mates.

    Another thought - has your wife been tested for testosterone levels? A low level can reduce the libido to non-existent. There are creams that would help if it were the case. She may not be open to the idea from you, that is where a counseling session could be really helpful.

    Comment by bigmama — January 11, 2009 @ 8:36 pm

  347. Ray

    Actually, what I said in the OP was that I had been gone for an extended time for military duty. Some posters assumed that meant I was often gone. Not so. Before the military stint, I had never been away from home longer than a week. I’m usually home every evening and most weekends.

    Comment by Apogee — January 11, 2009 @ 8:46 pm

  348. Apogee,

    Based on a lot of the comments in this thread, I think that the possibility of you finding sexual compatibility with a completely new partner is not nearly as likely as your finding it with your wife of 20 years (with, of course, some help from a professional). Even if you did find someone who wanted to “do it” more, there are phases and cycles in life… eventually you would end up mismatched anyway.

    Marriage is about weathering those times and keeping our heads on straight so that we’re around and the relationship is still solid when things cycle back around and are better.

    Comment by sare — January 11, 2009 @ 9:07 pm

  349. Ray, I think discussing what *is* the “ideal” of Mormon manhood would be a really fantastic manuary activity. Because, there’s what we hear over the pulpit, and then there are the subtextual cultural ideas that infiltrate people’s actions even more thoroughly than what’s “official.” The problem with subtext, of course, is that it’s not only… well, subtextual, but it varies according to geography, sociography, background, etc.

    But I know my sister (21 and dating BYU kiddos) has been talking lately about how she’s growing so weary of Mormon boys because–in her limited experience–they tend to be much more chauvinist. And even my DH, who is such a sweetie pot compared to SO MANY of the other boys I dated, has little chauvinist moments that get backed up by his religious experience. Like, “you shouldn’t get a say in when I come home from work because according to the Proc, I’m the breadwinner and you have to stay home…”

    Anyway. It would be a fascinating discussion.

    Comment by Isis — January 11, 2009 @ 10:41 pm

  350. I think if you leave your wife looking for someone who will have sex with you more, you will be sorely disappointed, unless you’re looking for the kind of woman who takes cash.

    Seriously… who wants to marry a guy who left his first wife because once a week wasn’t enough?

    Comment by Heidi K Bialik — January 11, 2009 @ 10:46 pm

  351. There are lots of women who want and enjoy a healthy sex life. On the other side, there are also women who only want sex once a week or less. There are also lots of other personality, physical and mental dynamics that will need to looked at as well. The choice will ultimately be yours.

    Unfortunately, many women are under the mistaken impression that their men can’t do better. Then the man does move on and is happier and the woman is bitter. If you don’t treat your spouse the best, don’t be surprised if/when your spouse finds someone else who does. That goes to both genders.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 11, 2009 @ 11:02 pm

  352. Apogee,

    I had this problem for the first 4-5 years of marriage. I wanted more, DW had no desire. We tried the compromising and bargaining approach, but that made no one happy. I can’t say if our situation was the same as yours, but we made some discoveries. First, we had kids almost from the time we were married. And my DW was bored out of her skull staying at home. So, we arranged to have her pick up some needed certifications, arranged for child care, and she got a job. This led to other feelings of guilt, around leaving the kids, and mainly caused by the notion that she grew up with, and that still exists in her family and in the Church that woman’s place is in the home. However, lot’s of talking, plus the fact that our kids are turning out just fine, helped with that.

    But even then, it wasn’t all rosy. Things only got better by having lots of (and I mean lots of ) heart-to-hearts about how she really felt about sex, and getting really deep into those feelings. We discovered reasons related to subtle things I did and said, and how I said it, reasons related to upbringing and sexual attitudes of her parents and the church (she’s a life-long member, I converted in my 20’s). Basically, my DW, being a very smart women, through lot’s of talking with me, friends, and her sister, shed the obstacles that were holding her back,

    Nowadays, we’ve been married almost 16 years, and have a great sex-life. She actually demands it more than I do, and has been for about 10 years now.

    I feel for you, Apogee. I think things can get better if you are willing to have some really frank and deep conversations with your DW. It will be worth it.

    Comment by CW — January 11, 2009 @ 11:09 pm

  353. And sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t.

    Comment by Araceli — January 11, 2009 @ 11:11 pm

  354. #351 - “If you don’t treat your spouse the best, don’t be surprised if/when your spouse finds someone else who does. That goes to both genders.”

    And for her, that might mean finding someone who doesn’t use threats to get sex.

    Comment by Heidi K Bialik — January 11, 2009 @ 11:31 pm

  355. Apogee,

    I’m sorry if my tone was too flip. I do understand that you have a situation that is causing you distress. My reading of the thread was that things had pretty much wound down and turned a bit light. You’ve had an emotional situation surrounding sex in which you were satisfied, and know you’ve learned that for your wife it was more than she wanted … and there is nothing easy about that. I just don’t believe you can force or manipulate the issue. You can only present your side, and wait for the compromise to take hold. Anyway, that’s how I’d handle it … and then I’d go get a hobby. *wink*

    I thought there was a ton of good advice on this thread, and lots of openness, from many different perspectives. I gave mine … I didn’t mean to minimize what you’ve experienced.

    Natalie,

    Thanks. :) ~

    Comment by Thomas Parkin — January 11, 2009 @ 11:34 pm

  356. And for her, that might mean finding someone who doesn’t use threats to get sex

    .

    And for him, that might mean finding someone who doesn’t think he’s threatening her when he wants to have sex.

    Comment by Apogee — January 11, 2009 @ 11:36 pm

  357. Hmmm, Thomas. Would that hobby start with an “m”, and not be model-building?

    No offense taken. This is my first time as the OP, and I’ve really been able to track the thread’s evolution. At first even those who were offended by some of my thoughts were almost professional about it. Now, it seems to wander from irrelevant witticisms to “Gee, Apogee, you’re a $hithead.” S’all good.

    Comment by Apogee — January 11, 2009 @ 11:42 pm

  358. Telling someone that they can refuse to have sex with you, but at their “grave peril” is threatening. If you don’t mean it to be threatening, you should rethink your choice of words.

    Comment by Heidi K Bialik — January 11, 2009 @ 11:44 pm

  359. When you refuse to have sex with your husband for a year, when the refusee is by all accounts reasonable, that’s abuse, and if it damages or sinks the marriage, the refuser is accountable. Period. The OP was a two-parter, and the second part dealt with the issue of situations far more problematic than mine. When I speak generally, I speak with that cohort in mind.

    Comment by Apogee — January 11, 2009 @ 11:49 pm

  360. And no, I have NEVER threatened my DW with this language, or even quoted scripture at her (as some of you think). I have used these references in the OP that I penned in ten minutes in an outpouring of thought and emotion. Some of you have said I need to communicate better with DW, but in this regard I may not have communicated enough. But I don’t think I can, hence my resolution to seek counseling.

    Comment by Apogee — January 11, 2009 @ 11:54 pm

  361. Referring to the OP - I don’t think once weekly sex counts as abuse.

    Comment by Heidi K Bialik — January 11, 2009 @ 11:56 pm

  362. Well, seeking counselling is probably the best thing to do. I wish you the best.

    Comment by Heidi K Bialik — January 11, 2009 @ 11:58 pm

  363. Catching up again, but with regard to #347 -

    From Comment #22:

    Finally, what, if anything, underlies this? I am driven, and have some personal hobbies that take time away from the family.

    I apologize, Apogee, if I read too much into this, but (added to your time away with the military) I took it at face value as saying that you don’t spend enough time with your wife and kids.

    Comment by Ray — January 12, 2009 @ 12:00 am

  364. Like I said, home most evenings and weekends. I used to be VERY involved in Church callings, and was gone A LOT, but that was several years ago. I guess a calling can be a hobby. I am gone a few weekends a year for hobby activities (I’m being cagey for privacy reasons–it could be hunting, tech shows, or bowling, or none of the above ;-)), but that’s about it, and DW is OK with it. Or says she is. Guess that’s another thing to talk about.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 12:08 am

  365. Apogee, have you ever really addressed why, in your mind, your need for frequent sexual activity prima facia trumps her need for less? I This baffles me. It also still baffles me why sex with an unwilling partner wouldn’t be distasteful and enervating to one’s manhood. I am truly trying to understand. Maybe these things baffle her just as much? Certainly an excellent counselor can help you navigate such territory absent the defensiveness that might otherwise attend the conversation.

    You once said you felt certain the atonement could heal your marriage–a commendable attitude, to be certain. The atonement could possibly also mitigate your respective sexual drive such that your wife’s suggested compromise doesn’t sound so abhorrent to either of you. Why not? Something to hope for.

    I admit, I’ve found much of this thread useful at the same time it has deeply disturbed me and even spurred one unfriendly nightmare. But I do wonder, considering your conversation with your other male friends, how common your viewpoint is. My husband doesn’t share your way of looking at the issue, but maybe he’s in the minority. Hmm.

    Anyhow, good luck to you both. I sincerely hope you’re able to work out an equitable solution which keeps your marriage intact and brings you both happiness and fulfillment.

    Comment by Janet — January 12, 2009 @ 2:48 am

  366. oh, and I haven’t seen this even though it seems so stinking obvious: is your wife on birth control pills? Because those suckers can seriously mess with your libido. Going off the pill ROCKED. Counseling remains the best idea, but a medical check-up might not be bad. So stinking many meds mess with the sex drive!

    Comment by Janet — January 12, 2009 @ 3:05 am

  367. Here’s an AWFUL joke that still makes me laugh (because, obviously, I am AWFUL myself):

    Man calls the doctor: “I think my wife is dead.”
    Doctor, appalled: “What do you mean *think*? How can you not KNOW?”
    Man: “Well, see, that’s just the thing. Because the *sex* is the same, but the *dishes* are piling up.”

    You’re welcome.

    Comment by hero — January 12, 2009 @ 8:33 am

  368. Maybe it’s because my husband and I got married as virgins in our late 30s, but we seriously consider every sexual encounter as a gift: we freely give our bodies to one another and experience sex as a joyful, playful meaningful celebration of our relationship. Sometimes we have gone for a week or two wirhout. Sometimes we can have sex every day. But we never keep tabs, never make each other feel guilty or ashamed or inadequate.

    First and foremost we are friends– friends who each had to be celibate for two decades as adults while we searched for the right person to marry. We don’t take sex for granted, and we each have the self-control and self-respect (and common sense) to know that our libidos will never match up exactly just because we happen to be married.

    Comment by Nonamenina — January 12, 2009 @ 10:30 am

  369. I happened upon this blog and thread tonight while doing some online scripture study. I read through about #75 completely, and then a few here and there after that.

    I’m here to state my personal scriptural understanding of 1 Corinthians 7 and I hope it helps this discussion along. I will do my best to make a more comprehensive response to the lengthy and important discussion later. First, 1 Corinthians 7 (with JST in brackets):

    1. Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: [saying] It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
    2. Nevertheless, [I say] to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
    3. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
    4. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
    5. [Depart] ye not one [from] the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

    Definition >> Incontinence: “failure to restrain sexual appetite” (not the common modern usage “failure to restrain bowel or urine function”)

    To me, 1 Corinthians 7 is unambiguous. If either partner in the marriage (woman or man) wants sex, the other should provide sex to fulfill this desire. This is the easy interpretation, though it may be oversimplified and incomplete, more nuance to it comes out later in the post.

    However, it is also true that any person (man or woman) has the right to say no to sex at any time for any reason or no reason. If anyone forces or manipulates an unwilling partner into sex it is rape. As has been mentioned, you can rape your spouse: unwilling is unwilling and “no” means “no” whether you are married or not.

    How do you reconcile these two truths in the common scenario that partner A would like sex, but partner B does not?

    Partner B has a conjugal duty to fulfill partner A’s wants (per my interpretation of 1 Corinthians 7). However, partner A has an absolute obligation to honor partner B’s sanctity of body and agency. *If the situation does not change, partner B’s agency must be respected and no sex is justified.*

    Despite the fact that sex and sexuality are way more emotionally tender subjects than other areas, this is really no different than any “thou shalt” commandment. An example: A Latter-day Saint should attend all three meetings of Church.

    Partner A wants to attend Church as a couple. Partner B does not want to attend church. Partner B has a religious duty to attend church. However, partner A has an absolute obligation to honor partner B’s agency.

    If partner B refuses to attend church, it is not justification for partner A to physically, mentally, emotionally or socially force or manipulate partner B to attend the three meeting block. You should not tie up your inactive spouse and drag him or her to meetings. It is wrong for partner B to violate the commandment to attend church. *It is also wrong for partner A to force partner B to attend church.*

    Turning the church attendance example back to our discussion about marital intimacy:

    It is wrong for a spouse, male or female, to deny the righteous sexual wants and desires of the partner. However, it is also wrong for the partner whose wishes are being denied to force sex on her or his spouse. The length of time and the degree to which sexual desires are being denied is completely irrelevant, it is never appropriate under any circumstance to force sex on your partner.

    Also using church attendance as an example, there are common sense, “spirit of the law” exceptions here. If someone is violently ill, they should not be asked to attend church. Likewise, asking for sex from an exhausted or physically ill spouse is not good. If a person experienced extreme trauma in a ward chapel and had a legitimate, damaging psychological reaction every time he or she entered one, it would be inappropriate and insensitive to expect that person to attend church with the same frequency and ease as others. Likewise, if sex triggers traumatic reactions in your spouse because of past sexual or physical abuse it is not appropriate to insist on sex on your terms.

    So, in the ideal world where all spouses were compassionately providing every want of their partner, sexuality would be paced by the partner with greater libido, but in reality it is limited by the least common denominator. What are the sexually charged partner A’s of the church to do? D&C 121 has excellent answers, and although this section is specifically about the priesthood, it is equally applicable to women’ attempts to influence the actions of others.

    41. No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
    42. By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

    If your spouse is not meeting your sexual wants, you must show long-suffering, meekness, kindness, *love unfeigned.* Note also how grave the consequences of force or compulsion in verse 37:

    37. ….when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved….

    Again this verse is specifically referencing the priesthood, but is equally applicable to women’s use of their influence and powers and what consequences that has. Note that D&C 121’s descriptions of the attributes and actions of a Latter-day Saint trying to influence others sound a lot like 1 Corinthians 13’s description of charity (love):

    4. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
    5. Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
    6. Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
    7. Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

    If I have a sexual want that is not fulfilled by my partner- so what? I am under the obligation of charity: I suffer long, envy not, seek not my own, do not behave myself unseemly and bear all things. In short, I love my spouse and, as Paul says right in 1 Corinthians 7, I render due benevolence. I should force or manipulate sex no more than I should force or manipulate the laundry to get done or the bathroom to get scrubbed.

    A partner should seek in every way to satisfy and fulfill every righteous desire of the spouse, and sex can certainly be a righteous desire. The partner should use all the love, affection and concern possible to meet the wants and wishes of the spouse. This thread is full of examples on both sides: instances where the partner who wanted more sex or the partner who wanted less grossly violated the principles of love and devotion.

    Where wishes and wants conflict, love in action and the Spirit’s guidance will present a solution. It cuts both ways in this situation: the spouse who wants the sex should follow those ideals as much as the spouse from whom sex is desired. As Paul says, neither the husband or the wife have power over the body after marriage.

    Comment by Kiyosa — January 12, 2009 @ 10:42 am

  370. Although only having been married 7 years, we were on a trajectory to end up in your shoes. I enjoyed sex sometimes (usually once a month when ovulating), but, though, I rarely said “no.”, I was starting to feel resentful of my “wifely burden” and my husband felt something was missing. Luckily, during an extended absence, my husband found a wonderful book, “And They Were Not Ashamed” by Laura Brotherson. She’s an LDS woman who suffered years, in an unhappy sexual relationship. She approaches the subject with a fresh new approach. We learned that we hadn’t given the time and energy to our “sexual stewardship” and that once we were educated and figured out what did it for me, my husband was more satisfied as well. Now, we’re making love a lot less, but it’s so satisfying!! I’m fulfilled in ways I didn’t know I needed, and my husband feels like such a sucessful lover, that he’s much happier with “less is more.” I can’t recommend the book too highly! She delves into typically LDS issues in a way I’ve never seen anywhere else. It’s changed our lives

    Comment by qualitynotquantity — January 12, 2009 @ 10:47 am

  371. I think you’ve said some very heartfelt and profound things here, Anon. And I see that you have expressed empathy with his position. I have a question: are Apogee’s desire for more frequent sex with his wife less valid than another person’s desire for more communication with their husband, or for more non-sexual touch? Would people be so quick to tell Apogee that they will wait for what they need if it were something other than sex? Would we be so quick to tell Apogee that he needs subsume his need, to give complete control of his need to his spouse were he the wife and the need was more romance?

    Maybe I’m inferring incorrectly, but the implication seems to be that sex is not as valid a need as other needs. If so, I think it is an unfair implication. I think that we as spouses should be striving to accommodate our spouse’s needs in all areas.

    Derek, I’ll take a stab at this one.

    When I first read this comment, I thought, “Of course sex is as important as other needs!” But then I thought about my marriage and decided that it really isn’t as important. I talked to my husband about this and asked his opinion, and he agreed (after I informed him that it was NOT a trick question :) ).

    Sex is important, really, really important. But it is not the most important thing. The things that make my marriage what it is are love, compassion, commitment, intimacy, communication, trust, friendship, support, reciprocation, a shared vision, and equality. Sex does not make my marriage what it is, and though it may certainly deepen all of the above, I would not consider it essential to deepening the traits that make my marriage what it is. I can attest to this having been forced to endure long periods without sex due to illness. My marriage did not struggle during these periods, because we learned other avenues of intimacy and the above listed attributes remained intact.

    My marriage could survive without sex, if, for example, my hormones went completely out of whack and I never again felt the desire, or if my husband were crippled and could never again attain an erection. That’s the fact of it. My marriage could survive without sex. My marriage could not survive without love, compassion, commitment, intimacy, communication, trust, friendship, support, passion, reciprocation, a shared vision, and/or equality. The loss of just one of these things would mean that our relationship could no longer exist. Sex is not on that list.

    The loss of sex would be a huge blow. We’d likely go to counseling to discuss the ramifications of a sexless marriage. But I would not consider divorcing my husband over the matter, while I would undoubtedly pursue that option if even one of the above attributes were missing in our relationship.

    Sex is less important than these other attributes because in a healthy relationship, it is not essential to maintaining and building upon the characteristics that make a marriage. That doesn’t mean that sex doesn’t help or that it’s irrelevant, but I believe wholeheartedly that an intimate, supportive, reciprocal, communicative, sensual and loving relationship is possible without intercourse, if the relationship is healthy and the partners are committed.

    Comment by Chandelle — January 12, 2009 @ 11:00 am

  372. Great thought, Kiyosa.

    I’ve been thinking about the misogyny/misandry side of the issue, which several people have expressed confusion about. While I can’t say I know what Apogee meant when he picked the title, I do think there is some validity to the idea. Consider the fact that part of misogyny is demeaning things which are considered feminine solely because they are feminine. For example, one could easily make a case that the cultural derision of the romance genre in literature is misogynistic. After all, there is little evidence that the romance genre is objectively worse by literary criteria than any of the genres which are more typically considered masculine (mystery, thriller, swords and sorcery-style fantasy, etc). The big difference is that the romance genre stereotypically appeals to women.

    High sex drive is stereotyped as being a masculine issue. If sexual needs are dismissed as less relevant than other relationship needs–needs which are stereotyped as feminine (communication, non-sexual intimacy, help with the “homemaking” roles culturally considered the province of the wife, etc)–and if those needs are seen as negative (wanting frequent sex is akin to being a sexual predator), then isn’t there a bit of misandry going on?

    (ducking and covering)

    Comment by Derek — January 12, 2009 @ 11:03 am

  373. re: 371

    Thanks for sharing, Chandelle. I see what you mean, and I agree. Because of certain issues, my wife and I have gone without sex for pretty long stretches, and while it was very difficult, we’ve survived. In some ways we may even have grown because we’ve been forced to explore other aspects of our relationship.

    But barring serious obstacles (physical health issues, emotional issues, whatever), don’t we have an obligation to try to help meet each other’s needs? To try to overcome those challenges so that we can fully meet each other’s needs? Why does there seem to be a perception among so many that rather than being a legitimate need, the desire for frequent sex is seen as evidence of some addiction?

    Comment by Derek — January 12, 2009 @ 11:17 am

  374. Derek-
    Yes, partners have an obligation to try to meet each other’s needs, but I really think in this case, and in many cases, one partner feels unable to meet the needs of the other.

    Until she figures out what she needs (and it sounds like counseling is the best option here), someone’s need is going to have to take a back seat.

    Should the need that gets put temporarily aside be his or hers? The only people who can answer that are Apogee and his wife.

    From my perspective (limited to what I’ve read here), it sounds like Apogee is at a better place in life for putting his needs on hold while they figure things out.

    If either partner insists on having their own needs met first, the other partner has two options- meet those needs (sacrificing their own) or end the marriage.

    I’d hate to see a marriage end when the problems can be fixed and both partners could be happy together.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 12, 2009 @ 12:00 pm

  375. This is just another reason why trying to keep the church in the past is NOT WORKING.

    Those in the church, who say that strict division of gender is essential to salvation are condeming the members to miserable marriages. If women were encouraged, just a bit more to be sexual creatures (outside of having babies) they might actually enjoy their wifely duties rather than feeling that it is an obligation, and if men were allowed to appreciate their wives ambitions outside the home, they would be able to truly satisfy their wives (mentally) which would lead to more physical connection.

    Women no longer need men to bring home the bacon, and with the multitudes of women out there who are not above a fling, Men do not need to be married anymore to enjoy sex, so if we, as a church are serious about solid families, we MUST start working toward a more egalitarian compatibility in our marriages, before it is too late.

    Comment by Adam — January 12, 2009 @ 12:04 pm

  376. …the desire for frequent sex is seen as evidence of some addiction?

    I can’t speak for anyone else, but personally, I don’t see Apogee as suffering from an addiction. I bet his whole post would have been much more palatable and the response much less vicious if he hadn’t chosen to reference Paul to excuse himself for wanting his wife to give it up whether she desires him or not.

    But barring serious obstacles (physical health issues, emotional issues, whatever), don’t we have an obligation to try to help meet each other’s needs? To try to overcome those challenges so that we can fully meet each other’s needs?

    Okay, Derek, I’m going to be frank. You mentioned above:

    There have been times I wasn’t in the mood, but I agreed to sex to please my wife. I usually ended up just as happy as she.

    Perhaps this leads you to think that, if Apogee’s wife gives it up now and then when she’s not really into it, it wouldn’t be such a big deal, and she should stop being so selfish and try to meet him in the middle. But in this case, there is a HUGE difference between men and women. Every woman alive knows that her male partner could ultimately overpower and rape her if he so wished. Read Kimberly’s comment about being invaded - no matter how loving, a sexual encounter for a woman is always opening yourself to invasion by a foreigner. That places women in a tremendously vulnerable position, one that I do not believe in equatable for men.

    Many women have endured horrible circumstances in which sex was used as a physical or emotional weapon levied against her in devastating ways. I don’t believe the inverse is true. Sure, men get raped. And as mfranti pointed out, we women often hold the power when it comes to sex in our relationships. But this doesn’t change the fact that women are almost always at a distinct disadvantage in a sexual relationship, especially if we are held hostage to the idea that we are a tool to fulfill men’s desires, and that fulfilling those desires is essential to marital happiness, and that WE’RE the ones with something wrong with US if we don’t want to have sex as often as you do. How many suggestions here have implied that a physical or emotional disability is preventing Apogee’s wife from wanting to have sex several times a week? She should check her medication. She should have her hormones measured. She should get counseling. And so on. This speaks to a widely held belief that the lower-libido partner needs to be “fixed” in some way so that she can be “normal” in comparison to her male partner.

    I’m saying, why shouldn’t Apogee consider checking himself? Slowing down, exploring other forms of intimacy. Asking himself what’s really important about his 20-year marriage. I mean, he is seriously considering divorcing his wife over a handful of missing sexual encounters a month? Where the hell are his priorities? Why wouldn’t he take this opportunity to open up other avenues of sensuality and intimacy in his marriage rather than implying, by using scripture of all things, that as long as he asks nicely, his wife is obligated to open herself to him?

    Yes, they should go to counseling together and try to work out a compromise. But why should that compromise include her submitting to his sexual desire regardless of her interest? It doesn’t matter if she gets an orgasm out of it, if she ends up “having just as much fun.” For women, the coercion will never be forgotten, the pouting, the manipulation, the expectation. The compromise should be that they explore other forms of intimacy to make sure that both partners feel equally loved. For the compromise to be that she allows him to have sex with her whenever he asks politely would be to allow rape into this marriage. I don’t care if he’s not holding her down, if she said yes. If she’s doing it against her will, it’s rape. And her will is saying no to Apogee.

    Comment by Chandelle — January 12, 2009 @ 12:10 pm

  377. Encouraging promiscuity and removing the sense of obligation to be with the fellow parent of one’s children will not create more solid families (or more-solid famlilies).

    Comment by Katie P. — January 12, 2009 @ 12:10 pm

  378. Adam- I agree with your point, but as a SAHW, I don’t resent staying at home. I’ll have plenty of time later to get my masters degree and become a professional.

    Perhaps it’s a problem with some, but staying at home as nothing to do with my interest in sex.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 12, 2009 @ 12:11 pm

  379. re: 376

    You bring up some very good points about the physical dominance and the historic abuse of that dominance by men. It is something I should take more into account.

    Just to clarify, I’m not suggesting any wife (or any spouse) should just “give it up” when they are not interested. And maybe I’m projecting on Apogee, but I don’t think we should assume that he is either. I think the issue is whether or not his wife is trying to grow, overcome her challenges, and help her husband meet his needs (and I don’t think his needs are just to find a repository for his semen, but to have frequent, joyful, and bonding sexual experiences with his wife). Why shouldn’t we expect her to try to learn to want her husband more frequently? You object to the idea,

    How many suggestions here have implied that a physical or emotional disability is preventing Apogee’s wife from wanting to have sex several times a week? She should check her medication. She should have her hormones measured. She should get counseling. And so on. This speaks to a widely held belief that the lower-libido partner needs to be “fixed” in some way so that she can be “normal” in comparison to her male partner.

    but we (speaking as a feminist) wouldn’t allow a man to get away with saying that he won’t talk or be more non-sexually intimate with his wife because that isn’t who he is, that isn’t one of his needs, etc, would we? We would rightly say that he needs to learn to appreciate that aspect of the relationship, to learn to accommodate that aspect of his wife’s needs. We should expect the same thing in reverse. If one member of the relationship has legitimate unmet needs (we’re not talking drugs, or multiple sex partners, or other unhealthy wants here), the other should work to accommodate that need. It may take time, and the other spouse needs to respect that. The other partner also needs to see if they are doing something to sabotage the fulfillment of that need (the husband who neglects his wife’s needs had better get the beam in his own eye if he wants his wife to be able to grow).

    Comment by Derek — January 12, 2009 @ 12:39 pm

  380. When people say they needsex, and that they must have it every so often or else they’ll kick their spouses to tv ecurb, are they saying they need (1) the sex act as a biological end, and that they need their partner as a warm receptacle, (2) they need the act with their partner because of who the partner is and what the partner symbolizes, or (3) “need” is actually a misnomer for “really, really want”?

    As someone else mentioned, gay people “need” sex too. So do never married people, divorced people, widows widowers, etc. I’ve never understood the idea that just because *I* want something, someone else is *obligated* to give it to me. Sex with one’s spouse is a gift, but so is masturbation, solo.

    Comment by Nonamenina — January 12, 2009 @ 12:52 pm

  381. Just as money is rarely the source of financial problems, frequency is rarely the source of sexual problems. Counseling…and not just about sex.

    Comment by Katie — January 12, 2009 @ 12:54 pm

  382. Derek, 379,
    I think you bring up a good point, and I find your words very persuasive. But I really don’t think there is an emotional sacrifice a man could make that is equivalent to unwanted sex. Penetration is…… wow…… a part of another person is entering into your body! I mean, it’s intense. I’ve never had to experience it thankfully, but I cannot imagine the utter desolation I would feel at an invasion of that type. While I sometimes have sex with my husband even if I’m not in the mood, he is my husband, and I love him and know he respects the sanctity and autonomy of my body. But this only happens very infrequently. If I felt pressured to do it again, and again, and again, it would easily begin to feel like an invasion. I just can’t imagine any emotional sacrifice of that magnitude.

    I feel like I’m beating a dead horse here and running around in circles, so I’m probably done with this conversation.

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 12, 2009 @ 1:03 pm

  383. re: 382

    Thanks Natalie. And I want to emphasize that I don’t believe any wife should feel pressured by her husband to submit to penetration against their will. If that is what it has come to in any relationship, then there are serious problems in that relationship, problems often brought on by the husband.

    Comment by Derek — January 12, 2009 @ 1:11 pm

  384. and at nearly 400 comments, it really has been a conversation.

    Comment by Ray — January 12, 2009 @ 1:13 pm

  385. This has been the darkest,most unsettling post i’ve read here.It is full of passive aggression and manipulation,and left me like a rabbit caught in the headlights.I wanted to fit in and commend him for his candour,I didn’t want to respond in the manner that he hoped to provoke so that he could dis the blog by calling us all fembots.I allowed myself to be manipulated into giving him what he wanted,an opportunity to justify his behaviour and recruit other malcontents with the concept that a woman has a right to say no.I now find myself wondering-as one does when one witnesses a child being hit in public-what might be going on behind closed doors if this is what he considers justifiable public behaviour.Never have I been so grateful for my own loving ,considerate and respectful husband .I’m not going to explain my own relationship further.Thank God i do not have to live with this man,who has somehow managed to make evil good and good evil.The church was once full of them thirty years ago,thankfully they are a dying breed.I take some comfort from the title of the post,hoping that it evinces some intuition that this is indeed both misanthropic and mysoginistic behaviour.The light of Christ shines still.

    Comment by lost in space — January 12, 2009 @ 1:25 pm

  386. I have reflected on the posts from those of you who feel they are compatible with their spouses, or at least have reached an accommodation. For those of this group who have expressed sympathy, I thank you. For those of this group who have either been outraged by my posts, or have chortled with their spouse at how silly or sick I seem, I now know what it is like to be a fat person being told how to lose weight by fit skinny people.

    There are two ways to give advice. One is to say “Look at me. See, I can do it. Now, you do it.” The other is far less crass.

    Cheers.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 1:52 pm

  387. #385:

    It doesn’t sound like the OP is advocating that it is all about what he wants. It sounds like he just got belted in the face by finding out that what was something he thought he and his wife shared was infact a huge inconvenience to her and something she regrets. Imaging if your husband came home and told you that he regretted marrying you and wish he had hooked up with a different woman years earlier? How would you feel?

    This guy is supposed to work his whole life (and risk his life in his case in military service) to provide for his family, all the while resisting temptation to be with other women and then finds out that his wife doesn’t even want to be intimate with him. Do you think that roses and candy, or perhaps holding you when you are crying is something that you should have to give up as a ‘frailty of the flesh’?

    As I mentioned earlier - this Men are Men and Women are Women $%$*#@ is completely lame and MUST END, if the family of man is to survive. We each must attempt to see each other’s perspective and meet in the middle. Perhaps the OP is not the best lover, but if that is the case, it is probably because of prudish church dogma that has made him that way.

    Comment by Adam — January 12, 2009 @ 1:56 pm

  388. Kiyosa gets it spot on. A spouse’s refusal is not a priori value neutral. It can be wrong. I have NEVER forced myself on my spouse, so drop that sword. My point is that characterizing my need to go without as a spiritual trial is sick. I would be much more willing to deal with a request from her that I just respect her, rather than to have her tell me that the last 20 years have been a sham, that I have hurt her during that time, and that I need to be a better spiritual man.

    Yeah, there’s a lot of baggage here. I suppose a frank conversation earlier would have helped. Maybe I would have grown from that. Or maybe we would have split up then, before the kids came. I don’t know.

    I suppose a lot of this comes from my not having any choice. Yeah, that’s petty too, but now she is in complete control of this aspect of our life, and I thought we shared control.

    Not long ago she approached me about moving away for three months to get her masters. She did that once before, for her undergrad. I was OK with it (devil’s in the details, but conceptually, sure). The sex thing really didn’t enter into it. Why not? Not sure. Maybe because she asked.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 2:10 pm

  389. So I really wanted to read all the comments before commenting, but wow! 384… I’ll have to get to the rest later. I thought I’d put my 2 cents in on the big debate on whether saying that the low desire spouse should never say no to a polite request… that we own our own bodies, so we have a right to say no…

    I think an analogous situation can be found in our relationship with the poor. We have been given certain physical gifts from God (ie $). It belongs to us. It is morally wrong for another person to take it from us without our consent. Theft is wrong. However, it is our moral obligation to care for the poor. If that $ is not needed for our own necessities, I think King Benjamin tells us that we are morally culpable if we turn him or her away, without giving him what is ours.
    Similarly, if the low desire spouse says no, having sex anyway (Rape) would be wrong. But that doesn’t remove the culpability from the low desire spouse if she says no just because she feels like it, or likes the control it gives her (she wants the $ to buy a new lexus). After all, it’s her $, right?

    I think there are definitely times when a spouse has a right to refuse, just as there are times when I can turn a begger away and not feel guilty… but I think we need to be able to say “I give not because I have not, but if I had I would give” (Mosiah 4:24) whether we’re talking about a physical act of sex within marriage or our physical $ with the poor.

    I don’t know either of you, but I don’t think your wife could say that right now.

    Comment by CoriAnton — January 12, 2009 @ 2:10 pm

  390. So your wife tells you that the last 20 years have been a lie. Does that mean you are married to a liar? Is that harsh? But is it nonetheless true? When I met my sweetie, I asked him if he would ever get back with his ex (there are children involved), his response was simple. “No, I can’t trust her. I can’t be with someone I can’t trust. My kids are better off knowing that marriages are to be based on a foundation of love and trust.” Like your spouse, she had manipulated him when it came to physical intimacy. He found that he could not trust her because of this manipulation. At first, I felt really bad for the boys. But he is right, they deserve to know that certain behaviors are not permissible in a marriage. I certainly would never want those cute boys to be in a marriage where sex was used as a weapon and they felt that was acceptable.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 12, 2009 @ 2:23 pm

  391. High sex drive is stereotyped as being a masculine issue. If sexual needs are dismissed as less relevant than other relationship needs–needs which are stereotyped as feminine (communication, non-sexual intimacy, help with the “homemaking” roles culturally considered the province of the wife, etc)–and if those needs are seen as negative (wanting frequent sex is akin to being a sexual predator), then isn’t there a bit of misandry going on?

    (ducking and covering)

    Derek

    As a military guy, I am now yelling, “Incoming!”

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 2:26 pm

  392. I don’t think I have ever commented here, but I want to attempt to answer the question why frequency of sex matters. Incidentally, I do have a very satisfying sexual relationship with my wife.

    I really doubt that frequent sex with an unwilling or even lukewarm partner would solve Apogee’s problem. I don’t read his comments that way, and I don’t think this is really just about the frequency of sex.

    In my own case, I want my wife to feel passionate, erotic love for me. That is one of the key factors that makes our love special. Certainly I want friendship, compassion, common goals etc. But I want her to feel and express feelings for me that she does not have for her best friend or her brother. When we express passionate, erotic love for each other, I am energized. I believe that I also become more kind, generous, compassionate and considerate. I see the world through different eyes. I really am like the guy in the Viagra commercial who leaves for work with a skip in his step and smile on his face. I want that from my marriage and when I feel like those feelings disappear, things change. I begin to feel like a roommate, or some kind of business partner in managing a household and raising children. I want those things too, but I also want to be her lover and I want her to want that too. That desire that I have is not evil or a sign of weakness. It is not something to be tolerated. It is a positive good and should be nourished and enhanced, not squelched. It makes both of us better and happier people.

    Of course I understand physical and emotional downtimes. I understand fluctuating hormones. Let’s leave those issues aside for a moment, because they are not germane to my point here. If we go for extended periods of time when she says to me (in words or in actions) that she does not have those kinds of feelings for me, or worse, if she ever told me that she has resented our sexual relationship for many years, I would feel like one of the key elements that distinguishes my marriage from many other relationships has died. I would feel like the nature of the relationship has changed, like she had already divorced a big part of me.

    I would also be utterly mystified. Inviting her to make love is not exactly asking her to get up and clean the toilets or mow the lawn. Let me repeat, I am talking here about a pattern of behavior, not the normal ups and downs we all experience. It is not so much the frequency of sex that matters, but the frequency of rejection. Occasional rejection due to fatigue or other understandable reasons don’t count as rejection. But rejection that comes in the form of “I just don’t have those kinds of feelings about you, so leave me alone” does count, and those feelings add up over time. At some point I would conclude that I had effectively been divorced, or at least that part of me had been divorced by her. She will tolerate, maybe even enjoy my presence as a companion, a co-parent, and provider. But she does not love me the way I want to be loved. I may be wrong, I may be misinterpreting, but that is the message I would get. The only explanation I could come up with for a consistent pattern of rejection would that she just does not love me in the way I love her and the way I want to be loved. Erotic love has disappeared, and we are just friends, tied by kids, perhaps some other common interest and a mortgage, but not by any passion. Such a relationship would be qualitatively different from the marriage I thought I was entering into.

    Comment by notthereanymore — January 12, 2009 @ 2:33 pm

  393. Notthereanymore:

    Yeah. Not only do I feel like a predator, but I feel so damned unattractive, unexciting, unanything. And I wonder if she loves me. All the time.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 2:37 pm

  394. Counseling Apogee. Yesterday.

    Life doesn’t have to be that way. Hopefully your wife is willing, because she deserves better too.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 12, 2009 @ 2:40 pm

  395. Let me put a new spin on this. It’s not just sex. I’ll plan a date–go out to a club, go on a hike, do something fun. More than half the time DW bumps it. And it usually it’s for reasons that need not exist–sometimes there’s a vague “too much going on.” And there is NO WAY we would ever go on a trip together. There have been three such kidless trips in 20 years: our honeymoon, two days ten years ago, and four days two years ago. She has way too much anxiety over the children, even when family or trusted friends (with CPR training–required) are watching them.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 2:42 pm

  396. Do you remember the story about the wind and the sun? They were having a conversation with each other about who was the more powerful of the two. They saw a man walking along, wearing a coat. The wind said, I’m so strong, I can get that coat off him. And he blew and blew as hard as he could. But the man just pulled his coat tighter around him.

    Then the sun took a turn. He shone down his warm and gentle rays on the man’s shoulders. The man started to feel warmer and unbuttoned his coat. The sun continued to warm the man. Soon the man removed his coat.

    I think, Apogee, you are having a normal, but counter-productive response to your wife. She is asking to have sex less frequently than you would like. Sex is very important to you, and you feel understandably upset: worried, rejected, hurt, angry, frustrated, misunderstood, wronged. It’s possible that all these (normal, understandable) defensive thoughts and emotions are clouding your brain, and making it hard for you to listen clearly to your wife.

    You become like the wind - using logic, emotion, the scriptures, argument, threats - whatever you can think of - to try to get your way. But the harder you try, the more your wife withdraws.

    It’s not easy, but if you can do it, here’s what I think might help. Try to set all those thoughts aside for a while. I know this is hard, and seems scary. You worry that if you don’t keep your sexual needs at the front and center of the conversation, you will never get what you feel you need. This is a very scary feeling - almost like the feeling of the threat of inadequate air or water or food (not quite the same, but analogous). But by setting your own sexual needs aside for a little bit, you might be able to be a better, more empathetic, more understanding listener. Don’t get defensive, don’t tell her why she’s wrong. Just really, really try to understand her. Ask questions. Express your love for her. Let her know that you are there for her.

    She needs to be convinced that you are listening to her because you love her. This can’t just be another move in the game where your objective is sex.

    But paradoxically, if you can really do this - not just pretend, but really, truly, put your love for your wife above your need for sex, I suspect you will actually improve your marriage, emotionally and sexually.

    The sun in the fable is really just as manipulative as the wind; he’s just more effective at reaching his goal. I don’t think you should aim to be a more savvy manipulator. I think you ought strive to be genuinely loving and caring and willing to put your needs second to your love for your wife. Be warm and loving and compassionate because you care about her.

    I think that ultimately, this will lead to a happier marriage for both of you, with a more fulfilling sex life, as a natural outgrowth of the emotional connection you create.

    I don’t know; I don’t know either of you, or very many details of your life. But I think your current approach is unlikely to lead to the desired outcome.

    I would recommend the book, “The Bonds that Make Us Free”, by C. Terry Warner. It doesn’t talk about sex directly, but it does talk about relationships. I thought it was a very powerful and helpful book.

    Good luck, and thank you for being willing to open up about a very personal, painful, sensitive topic. I hope you and your wife can find more love, peace, and joy in your relationship.

    Comment by jane — January 12, 2009 @ 2:55 pm

  397. Your carefully crafted story, Apogee, is like a Harry Potter novel: things keep entering the story as it moves along that were not evident in the original.

    There is an unfortunate mismatch between your circumstances and the possibilities of this forum. Without your wife’s point of view we can’t do anything but speculate. Your issues are specific and particular and can only be resolved in “private ministry”.

    This is a public forum and can only properly deal in generalities.

    Unfortunately the audience for this forum and its moderators have a low tolerance for generalities. Pharisaically they need a rule for every sort of behavior and they need a blessing for every exception. Lacking faith in their own ability to find this revelation or faith that they will recognize the answer if they get it they turn to this anonymous public for validation.

    Don’t be one of them.

    Comment by aloysiusmiller — January 12, 2009 @ 3:00 pm

  398. Jane:

    Many thanks. Nice to see such a kind post here towards the end.

    I know Terry; I will get his book. And also some of the others you all have recommended.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 3:01 pm

  399. Apogee, the more you describe the situation with your wife, the more I consider her lack of desire for sex and her history of lying to you about sex to be just a symptom of a much greater issue. You are absolutely not excused for the implications of your reference to Paul, but I really do feel empathy for your situation and I hope counseling will help you.

    Comment by Chandelle — January 12, 2009 @ 3:09 pm

  400. Apogee - Thanks for responding. My heart goes out to you and your wife. I wish you the best.

    Comment by jane — January 12, 2009 @ 3:11 pm

  401. Aloyisus:

    Sorry that it’s a narrative. I wrote the OP in ten minutes in a fit of emotion. If you regard my story as a novel, I have been called worse than a tale-spinner. If you knew me, you would not be surprised that my life is complicated. And, I suppose, so is DW’s.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 3:22 pm

  402. #397 - Your last paragraph is even more condescending and insulting than the OP - even if your first paragraph is spot-on (and has been said more consistently than anything else in these comments). Those you scorn have given the exact same advice you proffer in your wisdom.

    Sorry, everyone else for addressing a trollish comment. I won’t do it again.

    Comment by Ray — January 12, 2009 @ 3:22 pm

  403. Agogee, I’m betting if you had inserted the stuff from 393 in your original post a lot of the hostility never would’ve arisen. Why? Because whooboy! Women can empathize with most of that comment, and thus start off from neither offense or defense.

    I know hearing this from a total stranger probably helps not at all, but a woman not wanting sex doesn’t have to mean she doesn’t love you or doesn’t find you attractive. Seriously. Really. 100%. Please don’t kill yourself with certainty on that front, for certitude isn’t yet merited. I know it sounds absolutely batty and I know it sounded absolutely batty to me when my husband was too overwhelmed with life for sex, but it’s still true. She might love you absolutely to pieces and hate that you’re falling to them. You could still be the great love of her life and the whole sex thing has to do with something . . . else. That she doesn’t even realize, that counseling will reveal, yada yada, but NOT with an absence of love.

    Good luck finding a good counselor. Here’s hoping the military provides them for free! (they should, dagnabbit–shipping spouses away for months ought come with a return package of free marital help).

    Comment by Janet — January 12, 2009 @ 4:01 pm

  404. Ray:

    Don’t be too hard on Aloyisus. What I said in later posts may not have seemed relevant until some of you pointed out the need for me to elaborate. And it’s not possible for this blog to supplant a true conversation. Some of the stinging comments (for which I have rebuked some posters) were likely made because a conversant and empathetic atmosphere is harder in this venue.

    Condemning the forum and its participants as Pharisaical is ironic, however–why is she appearing and speaking if she sees the process as irretrievably flawed? Still, name-calling may only help validate Aloyisus’s point (in her eyes). (I presume she is a “she” by the handle’s gender, but one never knows).

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 4:03 pm

  405. Janet:

    They provide better than counseling for free. They’ll send us to Padre Island for a weekend, with counseling, all expenses paid. Yeah, I’m tracking that one down.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 4:05 pm

  406. Apogee, I thank you for your post. I was well on my way to becoming like your wife earlier in my marriage.

    After my first child, my DH asked if we were ever going to have sex again. I countered with was he ever going to give me a birthday present? A few days later I received a nice watch and he received . . .

    After my second child, he was daily asking and I was saying no and rarely, begrudgingly giving in. But at the same time something was happening to me spiritually. It’s hard to explain but I wanted to be more Christlike which meant putting myself second to my husband and my children as I believed Christ would do.

    I was not raised in the church so I know that I am coming at marital sex and sex from a very different position. I was a very, very selfish person. I felt that I didn’t ever have to do anything that I didn’t want to even if my refusal hurt someone I cared about. When I changed my thinking, everything changed.

    I began to say yes every time to my husband whether or not I was in the mood. And he stopped asked me daily when he knew I was going to say yes. Afterall, he didn’t want sex every day; he was only asking every day because if he didn’t he might miss the one day I was actually in the mood. Currently, the amount of sex varies according to health, schedule and our needs but we are both satisfied in this area. He is respectful and does not ask when he knows in his heart I really don’t want to. And when I have been sick or pregnant with my third baby, he is extremely respectful and patient–offering me backrubs with no expectations for reciprocation. I, for my part, tell him what I need whether it is help with this dishes or foreplay to get in the mood. And if I want a present, I drop not so subtle hints (gift giving was not big in his family so he didn’t get that it was important to me).

    I have also discovered that if I initiate more frequently and am more active/agressive, it “counts” more. It seems the more I initiate the less likely he is to initiate.

    I absolutely do not feel for one bit that I have relinquished any control over my body. It is MINE! I freely give it to my husband as I gift because I love him and want to make him happy. Just as my husband freely gives his body, and other talents, to me. And although I NEVER say no to my husband any more, I know that I can and he will accept it for what it is–me not being in the mood because I’m tired or don’t feel well, not a rejection of him as a man or a husband.

    I feel the same way about my children. I realize that I have to give to them first. And I do it. It’s not always fair to me, but it has helped me become a better person. This is not to say that I don’t ever have any me time, because I do but AFTER I have care for my family.

    About a month ago or so as we were going to be my DH asked if I was going to sleep, which is his way of asking if I wanted sex, I responded I was very tired. I could sense his disappointment, so I told him I was willing to do a quickie. He pouted and accused, you don’t even want to. I responded that I was tired but I was WILLING because I loved him, the same reason I iron his shirts even though I hate ironing. So we did have a quickie. And my husband learned that my libido was not connected to my love for him. I think husbands often think a rejection of sex is a rejection of the husband.

    After 3 kids and medication that has hurt my libildo, I will probably not be in the mood as frequently as my husband. However, I feel it is my responsibility as the wife to not just say “yes” but to also tell him what I need to feel more amourous.

    Some of my friends don’t tell their husbands what they need/want because they think their husband should just know. That if they love them then they know. That is just silly and juvenille. Both husbands and wifes are responsible for clearly explaining their needs/wants in the relationship. We shouldn’t ever have to guess–it just leads to disappointment and failure.

    My husband is a good father and husband. He strives to keep his temple commandments. He does not scream at me or our children. He does not berate me. He does not look at pornography. He is willing to do whatever I ask him to do. He goes to work on a daily basis. He does not complain if I spend a little money on something extra for me. He does not complain if I don’t clean the bathroom for two weeks or if I serve him a grilled cheese for dinner (even though I had plenty of time to cook him a proper meal).

    I also have complete control about when and if we have more children. My husband wants more children, as do I, but I have control over when the next one comes. He did ask after our second that we have a little more time betwee 2 and 3 though (and I agreed because 1 and 2 were close).

    Men need to feel sexually desirable and loved just as much as women. I think once I was able to completely and FREELY give myself over to my husband, our marriage improved dramatically and I have grown spiritually.

    I was trouble by some of the posts here about equating desire and willingness on a woman’s part. They are not the same thing. I used to work as a rape survivor advocate. I have two degrees in Women’s Studies. I know what marital rape is. I know marital rape happens. However, a wife my lack the desire to have sex with her husband but may agree to have sex because she loves him. Just as she might agree to go to a monster truck show with her husband even though she hates monter trucks. That is NOT rape or even close to rape. (Now this is of course providing there is no abusive coercion involved.) As I said I above, I do not always DESIRE my husband but I am always WILLING to have sex. I do not feel coerced or abused in any way. This is my choice, my gift to give him and he treasures it as he should.

    I think Apogee’s post is really important because I do know women who don’t think they need to bother themselves with their husband’s sexual needs/desires. However, these same women think their husbands should give them whatever their needs/desires are emotionally and financially.

    I know that women who have grown up in the church may have complicated ideas/feelings about sex that I cannot possibly began to understand or address. My post is just to share my specific experience and thoughts.

    Marriage is definitely about compromise. I can’t see anyway to resolve Apogee’s problem without either he or his wife having a complete change of heart. Neither husband nor wife should have to compromise in this area.

    This post is long and rambling. I hope this makes sense.

    Comment by MD — January 12, 2009 @ 4:13 pm

  407. Holy Crap! That’s frickin’ awesome!!!!! And you know I think so, because even though I live in Utah, I never use the Utahn version of the “f” word. Have fun!

    I served my mission down there–great flowers even in February. Enjoy!

    Comment by Janet — January 12, 2009 @ 4:13 pm

  408. Apogee,

    Okay, I really, really disagree with the basic premise that your wife should have sex whenever you ask nicely. That’s blackmail — “See, I asked nicely, so you’ll be damned if you don’t have sex with me.” It’s not going to change her mind; it will only make sex with you more distressing, and I don’t care what Paul said — it’s wrong. As was his repeated contention that we shouldn’t actually get married, since the world is about to end. As Mormons, we cannot look to Paul for direction on marriage; the revelations we’ve received in the modern period, upon which we have built our faith, contradict him most emphatically.

    That said, I understand that this is frustrating, and probably very hurtful. I wonder if you’ve considered that there may be a medical issue killing her sex drive? For instance, I had a prolonged period of major depression early in my marriage, and it made it almost impossible for me to have sex with my husband, even when I had an orgasm. My sex drive was completely gone.

    I was eventually diagnosed and started taking medication, and lo and behold, my sex drive increased to the point that for a little while, my husband actually complained about my inability to keep my hands on him.

    There are all sorts of physical and emotional things which may make it deeply distressing for your wife to have sex with you. Giving her cause to feel objectified is only going to make her feel worse. A marriage counselor, one who has training with sexual dysfunction in marriage, can help. She or he can mediate between you, investigate possible underlying problems, and can even refer you to doctors. This is NOT a spiritual journey you can take on your own, and it’s not something you should have to be alone for. Isn’t isolation what you’re really complaining about here? That way lies divorce.

    Comment by Serenity Valley — January 12, 2009 @ 4:28 pm

  409. my husband actually complained about my inability to keep my hands on him.

    OFF him. Off him. I couldn’t keep my hands off him.

    Comment by Serenity Valley — January 12, 2009 @ 4:29 pm

  410. ,,,SV

    i had a totally different visual on that corrected statement. it’s funner if you leave the mistake.

    Comment by mfranti — January 12, 2009 @ 4:47 pm

  411. mfranti, yeah, I can see that.

    Comment by Serenity Valley — January 12, 2009 @ 4:57 pm

  412. I read ALL the posts last night but did not comment because -lucky me- we don’t suffer from this issue and I had no insights to share. I did, however, have a lot of trouble leaving my children for a while to go away with my husband. We had a special needs child who ratcheted up my anxieties. Finally we got counseling. Along time ago someone said on this blog there are only two kinds of people- those who have been in counseling, and those who should be- and some of us who are both.
    My personal advice, apogee, is to tell your wife you will follow her sex schedule IF she will go WITH you to counseling. Then GO with an open mind.

    Comment by Karen — January 12, 2009 @ 5:03 pm

  413. This wont be popular with the ‘designing-women’ part of this forum, but it just needs to be said:

    The worst inherently feminine trait is woman’s capacity for disavowing anything that they think is no-longer serving their purposes.

    To be completely honest, if it were not for the sex-drive, most men would be really hard-pressed to put up with their nonsense.

    This is the essence of their weaker vessel status - in a nutshell. To women who can overcome this, and stand being their choices and put-off this basic tendency toward self-indulgence, you are the ones that really make a man’s life complete. To the ones who can’t overcome this, it is you who drive us to our grave.

    Comment by Adam — January 12, 2009 @ 5:03 pm

  414. P.S. Any man who doesn’t get a prenump is a chump.

    Comment by Adam — January 12, 2009 @ 5:05 pm

  415. We are going to a marriage retreat hosted by the military. She has agreed. Couple counseling referrals will be at the retreat, and we’ll take it step by step. Thanks to all.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 5:05 pm

  416. #413. Ditto for any woman!

    Comment by StillConfused — January 12, 2009 @ 5:10 pm

  417. What is the record for number of comments on fMh? This has gotten huge. Can’t remember what I have said. Glad I never lied. ;-)

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 5:12 pm

  418. Apogee, Number 392 gets it. I think he expresses it very well. I am so sorry that you have been left feeling unattractive by this. I speak regularly with people about this. Though my charity is designed for empowering women, I have had so many instances of men being emasculated by this behavior that they question their own self worth. If your own spouse doesn’t think you are sexy, will anyone else? That is a common issue that arises. And the sad part is that these are nice looking men who support their families and tow the line on their end. A few words of encouragement (whether from me or others) and they are completely different people. Please know that how one person feels about you does not determine who you are, whether it is your spouse or us yahoos on this site. You determine who you are. Just as I tell women that they have the right to be in a relationship that meets their needs and in which they flourish, the same is true for men too. If this relationship can be that one for you, then great. But if it can’t (and only YOU can make that decision), please don’t sell yourself short. Be all that you deserve to be. You are a son of God and worthy to be treated as such.

    Comment by StillConfused — January 12, 2009 @ 5:22 pm

  419. Hmmm,

    Aloysius is a pseudonym as well you may imagine. I chose it because I believe that it generally a man’s name. I am a man.

    I didn’t say your story wasn’t true. It is a little “literary” and there have been some convenient details added along the way. I have my doubts but literary didacticism is not unknown even in Church literature. It serves a purpose.

    Roy, Many have advised counseling but many have added specific counsel and advice that cannot be founded on any sort of facts. I too have posted in the comments but I believe my comments were very general about the nature of the marriage relationship and did not address Apogee specifically.

    Stereotyping, generalization etc. are characteristic accusations in the bloggernacle and among the leftward oriented, in general. I think its a particular sort of maturity that allows people to look at the “rule book” and choose how they will comply with the spirit of the rule book, extoll the rule book, and find peace in the decisions they have made in applying the rule book.

    This topic begs for some good generalization but Apogee you have forced us to consider a particular instance and the conversation has followed from there.

    Everyone else: Spare me the accusations. I already know that I am stereotyping and generalizing and very consciously thank you.

    Comment by aloysiusmiller — January 12, 2009 @ 5:23 pm

  420. Re. 392:
    Your comments have a remarkably different tone than Apogee’s. If someone presented with your thoughts and considerations, I would be able to feel a great deal of sympathy and understanding.

    Apogee, you have not once apologized or backed down from the highly offensive statements in your OP. I know you think we are being mean or crass or unfair, but with what you’ve given us to work on, I think it’s all been justified. You’ve shown only small glimpses of the kindness and love that permeates posts like 392. I haven’t seen any sincere acknowledgment that the women you asked for advice might actually have real insight into how your wife is feeling. Your dilemma is entirely different than 392’s, and its purely because of your perspective. Your wife doesn’t have to be a feminist to be horrified at your “grave peril” beliefs. While I resoundingly agree with those that have said obviously your wife has other, deeper issues going on that desperately need to be resolved through counseling, I don’t think you can be held entirely off the hook. I think your attitude towards women is at least partially responsible for your situation. Yes, I am making assumptions, the best I can based on the limited information we have. But in your many posts, I haven’t seen any evidence that my assumptions are wrong…. and in fact, they are frequently reinforced. You don’t need to be offended at my remarks (I’m just some faceless twerp on the internet), but I hope you will really take to heart the ways women on here say your remarks and beliefs make them feel.

    412, Adam.
    ………. You are fired. …….. Thank you for the worst fake insight I’ve ever seen.

    And really, I swear, I’m done with this topic!

    Comment by Natalie K. — January 12, 2009 @ 5:29 pm

  421. There are a lot of things about this post that concern me, but the most disturbing thing is how very personal and private this matter is, or rather, should be. What on earth possessed you to post intimate details about your crumbling marriage in such a public (albeit anonymous) forum? I’m not talking about discussing sexuality in general–I think there are many benefits to being open about it; I’m talking about sharing specifics about your marriage for the world to pick apart rather than going to a counselor or something in the first place. It seems very inappropriate to me, and I would guess wouldn’t exactly win points with your wife if she knew about it. Then again, I could be wrong.

    Comment by Josie — January 12, 2009 @ 5:44 pm

  422. Natalie:

    I never said I was blameless. And I have thanked a number of the posters (men and women) who have given sage advice.

    Let me go back to what really set off the OP. It was the fact that my life had been jarred twice in quick succession. First was the Announcement. That left me feeling very alone, and very vulnerable. I felt like a bad person–I was lusting–LUSTING–after my wife. Not good. But then, when I finally reached out to for ecclesiastical help, to men I thought were squared away and would straighten me out, I got, well, commiseration.

    Now, this made little sense to me, and did not help much. Except now I felt less guilty and more perplexed. I felt like I was in an M. Knight Shyamalan movie. First, I think I’m losing my mind, and then everyone around me says, No, the world really IS ending.

    Did I say perplexed? Yes. And angry? Yes. Because it makes no sense.

    I am coming out of a fog of self-doubt and self-loathing. Do not generalize that to my “attitude” toward women. My mother, amazing woman that she is, taught me better than that.

    I hope that explains a really inexplicable situation.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 5:45 pm

  423. Josie:

    Perhaps I’m too utilitarian. I have kept all this bottled in for so long. I finally reached out to friends, and was rudely surprised. So I posted here, to seek advice, I imagine. Maybe no what a blog is for. Oh, well. But you know what? A lot of this advice has been really, really good and helpful. I know now that we need counseling (both we and me). So is what I have done so bad?

    Right now is not the time to talk to DW about the fact that I have reached out for solutions, but if it helps, really helps (and that is my intent), then what of it? I was pretty desperate.

    Comment by Apogee — January 12, 2009 @ 5:50 pm

  424. Apogee, I’m going to be harsh; with the extra facts you gave (your wife is trying to avoid you?) It sounds like she has given up on the marriage and is attempting to rid herself of you while giving the appearance (should her most desired outcome come true) of her being the injured party. She’s lied to you for 20 years (or at least says she has, so the equivalent.) I’m so sorry; I really like you; you both can do better. She’s telling you goodbye. Listen. Go.

    Comment by djinn — January 12, 2009 @ 5:59 pm

  425. well, I do believe it’s time to close this post. I haven’t read all the comments because my computer kept crashing all weekend. The first hundred comments were very interesting (I heart fMh commenters), and I assume there must have been much to mull over to get three hundred more.

    While I feel a lot of sympathy for the pain Apogee’s situation is clearly causing him (because I can’t imagine how much it would hurt to feel that my spouse only had sex with me out of begrudging duty or if he felt that the fact that I freakin’ love sex made me a bad person) however regardless of the details of his specific situation, my response boils rather easily down to this: it is at Apogee’s grave peril that he advocate that a person (any person for any reason) should feel pressure to never say no. Period.

    And Janet (the great) rightly points out that I should add:
    Best of Luck to you Apogee, you seem to be really trying to be a good man and a good husband, nothing but good wishes for your counseling and happiness.

    Comment by fMhLisa — January 12, 2009 @ 6:04 pm