Dear fMh: One of My Sunday School Students is Gay
By: BobbieLoLo
I am Mormon and I teach Sunday School for older teenagers. It has been brought to my attention that one of my students is Gay. This student is being helped by the Bishopric on how to move past this “Sin”. I am not like most Mormons- I do not believe that being homosexual is a sin. I think that one cannot and should not be judged for who they love. I believe like what one of the other bloggers wrote- sometimes (like being born into a disabled body) one can be born in an imperfect body- loving whomever they love is based on what their soul is- not what their body shows. But in my humble opinion- no matter what someone’s thoughts on homosexuality/ gender is- we should not judge, nor take away a person’s right to choose who they love. We have each been given free agency- and by telling someone that they are choosing a “wrong” path by loving someone they shouldn’t isn’t that infringing upon their right to choose?
I was born from a Hippie bra-burning free-thinking Mom and a longed-haired Dad who looked like the next member of ZZ top- who now are Relief Society leader/ Elder’s Quorum President- I was born to be a liberal Mormon. I am really confused and really torn- This student is really one of the lights on my class. She is brilliant and smart and she knows the Gospel believes it- you can see that in her participation and the answers she gives and just the enjoyment she has in learning. But I know that there is a lot of confusion in her life- everyone she knows and loves and depends on is telling her that she is wrong for they way she feels/ wrong for who she loves/ and sinning by doing so.
I want to take this kid aside and tell her that I don’t feel that way. I want to tell her that who you are inside is who you really are. I want her to know that there is ONE person out there who loves her just as she is and that doesn’t think she is wrong or a sinner. My boyfriend is not a member of the church so he doesn’t understand why this is a hard thing for me- he doesn’t understand why I don’t just walk up to this kid and tell them all of this.
The only reason I haven’t yet is I am in a pretty conservative ward and I know that if I did this- I would be going against a fundamental teaching of the Church. I would for sure lose my calling teaching Sunday School, and who knows how much more trouble I would be in.I know that on this aspect of the Church- I do not agree, but I keep my opinions to myself on Homosexuality and Gay marriage. I went out and protested to fight Prop 8- giving people the right to marry for love, not based upon gender- but I did not run around rallying the Ward to come protest with me.I want to help this girl, and I really don’t care if I get in trouble.
How could I ever be O.K. with myself if I am not willing to help someone be O.K. with themselves especially when it is so close to home and someone who I know doesn’t have a lot of support.
Any thoughts? Ideas?
I think…I do npt think it would not be appropriate for you to act in your capacity of Sunday School teacher and go against a fundamental teaching of the church.
Of course, if you want to offer your love and approval and admiration for them, I think you can and should do that without adding the part that disagrees with church teachings.
Comment by Katie P. — January 22, 2009 @ 12:00 pm
For the first paragraph, I don’t agree that pronouncing a moral standard is taking away someone’s free agency. She still has her free agency. Saying that certain choices are wrong is not the same thing as taking away the ability to make those choices.
NOT saying that certain choices are wrong when the Lord has said so (in the right circumstances, of course) would defnitely be something we should be held accountable for. You don’t save free agency by hiding the gospel.
Comment by Katie P. — January 22, 2009 @ 12:03 pm
What a tough situation.
When my sister came out to a BYU professor, the professor told her that there were some mormons who wouldn’t love her, but that she didn’t have to turn her back on her faith.
I don’t know why some people are gay, you hear over and over about how God will not try us more than we are capable of withstanding, but this one just seems more than someone should be asked to deal with.
To ask someone to go without love or companionship is more than I’m willing to ask.
I’d see if I could put her in contact with Kim (I think it’s Kim- I’ll have to go check for sure) from the northern lights blog. I bet she would be able to help this girl more than anyone else I can think of.
Comment by Alliegator — January 22, 2009 @ 12:07 pm
Yes- it is Kim- and her blog is listed in the side bar- How I Deal.
What she has written has really touched me, so maybe she’d be willing to talk to this girl?
I don’t know if you’d need to talk to the girl’s parents first or not- I guess it depends on the situation.
Comment by Alliegator — January 22, 2009 @ 12:12 pm
Unless this girl has come to you and told you that she is gay, I really don’t think you should go up to her and talk about it. There are other ways to show your love and support for her. As a Sunday School teacher your job is to teach the gospel and love your students. You may not agree with what you think others are teaching her, but that is between her and them.
Comment by CD — January 22, 2009 @ 12:13 pm
Make sure that she knows you’re there for her as a teacher. That you love and support her. You need not be specific about the SSA issue unless the Spirit prompts. You could also talk in generalities to your class. Like how there’s many different viewpoints in the Mormon community and direct your students to specific blogs, like this one as well as others. (I don’t believe that to be going against any gospel teachings. You’re being a teacher, you’re teaching!
) She’ll get the idea of your stance even if you don’t come and say it outright.
Comment by NicoleB — January 22, 2009 @ 12:31 pm
It’s great that you don’t think that being gay is a sin and everything, but try to think of the implications of what this means:
“I believe like what one of the other bloggers wrote- sometimes (like being born into a disabled body) one can be born in an imperfect body- loving whomever they love is based on what their soul is- not what their body shows. ”
Even saying that homosexuality is an imperfection or a disability or what not is still glorifying straightness and still putting gay people on a back burner.
I commend you for being concerned about this girl, and wish one of my Sunday school leaders would have reached out to me when I was a teen as well. There’s only so many “You have to marry a nice straight Mormon boy in the temple to be happy” lessons you can take before you start wanting to scrape your eyeballs out in frustration.
Comment by lemondrop — January 22, 2009 @ 12:40 pm
Are you sure that the bishopric is helping this student move past a sin? If so, how? The Church’s stance on homosexuality (same-gender attraction in Church lingo) has shifted in recent years, so that now SGA isn’t sin, and only acting upon this attraction through homosexual acts is sin. While you may or may not agree with this distinction, the bishopric shouldn’t be telling this person, or any other person, that being attracted to members of the same sex is sinful.
If this student has shared with you that she is homosexual, I see no problem teaching her (that’s your calling, n’est-ce pas?) about the Church’s official stance on SGA. Placed in a similar circumstance, I would probably try my best to take my own personal biases out of the communication of that stance, and show an outpouring of love and support for the person regardless of their choices. If the bishop has a problem with you talking to the young woman about the Church’s official stance, you may need to direct him to the link above so he can be clarified on the matter. Acting in his capacity, he is entitled to inspiration for how to minister individually to the members of his ward, but at no point should that ministry contradict the official stance of the Church on any issue. If you are released from your calling as a result, so be it–at least you will know that you tried your best to teach the positions of the church as correctly as possible.
Comment by Observer — January 22, 2009 @ 12:45 pm
I think you can just say something along the lines of “As a person, I have no issue with your situation. However, the church may feel differently.”
Could this be an experimental phase or is she sure she is gay? I am not sure how that plays out but I understand that experimenting as a teenager is more common than one would think.
Comment by StillConfused — January 22, 2009 @ 1:11 pm
I’m so tired of fearing what the Church thinks.
I would have the same difficulty, but I’d want like hell to tell her.
I want to say I would, but…ugh. I would try to establish some sort of relationship with her, you know? Friendship. Trust. Let her come to me. I wouldn’t want to step on anyone’s toes, especially if she seems to be doing well spiritually. Eventually, like most gay people I know, she’ll come to a point and she’ll need friends and that’s a good time to be there for her.
But yes, sneak in a little liberalism if you can manage
That might help her to feel you’re approachable, that you’re different and yet still faithful. that’ll be a boon to her and your other students as well)
That’s just me though.
Comment by LisaJ — January 22, 2009 @ 1:18 pm
Fortunately you’re teaching in the Sunday School, where lessons explicitly aimed at marriage are less common than in the YW/YM program - so to what #7 lemondrop says - the message of all teachers should be centered on Christ, His love, and the universal blessings of the gospel no matter who you are, and on trying to model unconditional love to all the kids in your stewardship. You are not this person’s judge in Israel, you are called as shepherd, and we know how Jesus shepherded - without boundary, without bound, and without thought of self.
Comment by jeans — January 22, 2009 @ 1:29 pm
I don’t feel SSA is a sin. No, no, no, no, no - thats just WRONG. Church leaders have recently said over and over in GC that it doesn’t matter whether or not you are attracted to someone of the same sex - its whether you act on those impulses. I may have a strong desire to drink alcohol, but if I don’t act on them, then we are a-ok.
Has this girl talked to you personally about this? If not, I am a little surprised that the bishop did. I am kind of at a loss as to how her sexuality is any of your business otherwise (not downing you, but the decision to tell you). Is there a way that this would affect your teachings? Is there a reason the bishop couldn’t have just told you, “Hey, So-and-So is having some confusion and troubles in her life right now. Maybe try to show her some extra love.”
If I were in your shoes, I would want to talk to her, of only because I struggled with SSA as a teenager - and am now a happily married mother of 1. Sometimes SSA as a teen is just general sexual confusion, which is also not wrong. She needs to be being counseled on it. Acting on these things is wrong, but the feelings - absolutely not. She is not “broken,” which is probably how she feels.
What I would probably do is talk to her as a friend, not as SS teacher. Tell her that the bishop confided that she was going through some tough times, and that I would love to hear her out if she ever just needed to talk. Let her know you love her, without telling her what you know. She probably feels guilty enough, and needs someone who can just hear her out.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 1:34 pm
Referring to the paragraph re: not supporting prop 8. The church has guidelines and we are asked to follow them to protect ourselves. Supporting the church is a big part of being a member. Doing anything contrary to the churches teachings is incorrect. PLUS: Understand that you ARE her teacher…duh…saying anything would be viewed as “my Sunday School teacher Said…” its not your place. Let the Bishop handle it. You were probably told so that you may be sensitive with certain topics when teaching. Don’t betray anyones trust by saying anything.
Comment by Anne — January 22, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
I am on the trust issue here, not the topic. I do think that you should support her, but I don’t think you should come out and say, “I know you are gay.” That would just destroy any trust that the bishop may be trying to build…and from what I can infer, your bishop sounds nice and supportive.
Teen and young adult years are very difficult. I personally know of 4 women (LDS) who thought they were gay. 2 decided that they were, the other 2 decided that they were not and just had some issues that needed working on. She may not know for sure yet herself. I think you should just be her friend. Listen to her. Help her feel welcome and when she is ready, she will tell you all you need to know.
Comment by Katie K — January 22, 2009 @ 2:16 pm
Please don’t let this disintegrate into an argument over Prop. 8. I would so love to be able to talk about the OP’s topic.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 2:22 pm
In the office of her teacher - no you can’t say anything. But as her friend you can show support and love for her. My bishop always wore a tie when talking to me. If it was down - he was spaeking as bishop. If he threw it over his shoulder he was speaking to me as a friend. You can be both, but you have monitor where and when you speak. And make sure the difference is known to her when you are speaking officially and when as a friend. Also — I agree you have to foster a trust and a friendship before you say anything at all. She will come to you when she needs it.
Comment by Samantha — January 22, 2009 @ 2:26 pm
In my opinion, as a gay person who was raised in a (not Mormon) church that taught homosexuality was a terrible sin and that gays were going to hell, just being “listened to” would have been momentarily gratifying, but would not have gone very far in alleviating my pain and struggles.
Some people who experience same-gender attractions are bisexual, and can ultimately disregard their same-gender attractions and find a healthy, satisfying relationship with a person of the opposite gender. Some are NOT bisexual and CANNOT do this. I think this fact causes a great deal of confusion, leading many people to believe that “every gay person ought to be able to change their sexual orientation at will,” and that not doing so is an indication that they are simply stubborn and determined to stay in their “sin.”
This girl could, of course, fall into either category, and only she will know. But really, that shouldn’t make a difference, since the person she falls in love with and decides to spend the rest of her life with should be entirely up to her.
The actual difference comes in terms of how much pain she will have to undergo in the process of reaching that point. If she is bisexual, her attractions may be fluid, and she may find happiness (as some others have expressed) in a straight marriage and continued conformity to the expectations of her faith. If not, however, she will be faced with three equally painful and difficult choices:
1. Stay a Mormon and attempt to sublimate her love for another woman into a marriage of religious convenience to a man with whom she will never experience true love and fulfillment, probably continuing throughout her life to fall in love with her close women friends and struggling with the guilt and anguish this will cause her. She may end up divorced or a suicide.
2. Stay a Mormon and devote herself to celibacy, never experiencing the bond of commitment and love with a partner who loves her above all others. She will live in a state which is, for most people, lonely, difficult, painful, and non-affirming. She may fill her life with other things, but will probably never experience the joy of being a mother. She will be verbally praised for her decision, but in actions, she will probably be treated as, in many ways, an outcast and a second-class citizen, both by her church and society. She will likely struggle throughout her life with whether she has made the right choice, as well as struggling throughout her life with her continued desire to mate with someone like herself, to form a committed bond of love and sexual fulfillment — as most people are able to do.
3. Accept the fact that she is gay, fall in love, eventually form a committed relationship with another woman, whether they are able to marry or not, and most likely leave the church and become anathema to family, friends and her faith. She will then spend her life, hopefully more fulfilled and happy, but probably always with a kernel of regret that she was compelled to leave behind so great a part of herself simply in order to BE herself.
None of these three is a happy thing. From my perspective, though, the third is by far the best. But if it is at the expense of losing friends and family, it is still extremely painful.
Being raised in an institution which declares some basic part of who you are to be a “sin” (left-handedness, blond hair, being gay) is a horrible thing for a young person. And adapting the message to: “It’s okay that you HAVE THE DESIRE to write with your left hand, but if you actually write a letter that way, you’re going to hell,” is not much better. It’s like telling a hungry child that you have a bowl of rice for him, but he can only look at it. If he dares to eat it, it is a sin.
We all have a desire, a God-given NEED, for emotional intimacy, for committed bonds of sexual love, in our lives. Yeah, we can sublimate them, but we don’t generally ask this of ourselves or others, because the results are generally not good (witness the Roman Catholic Church). It is not so much the denial of sex, itself, which is harmful, I think (though certainly difficult), as it is the bond with our mate, the lasting, primary relationship with another person who becomes a part of our own soul. Sex is, however, certainly a part of that bond — its formation, its strengthening and maintenance.
Telling a person that she can never, must never, have that bond in her life because she experiences her life differently than most people do, is cruel. It is misguided. And its result is very often suicide.
The rate of teen suicide among young gay people is horribly, tremendously high. The young woman in the OP is at an age where her risks for emotional trauma and suicide are becoming extreme.
If you can find it in your heart to take a personal risk and help to lessen HER risk by letting her know that there ARE people around her who don’t consider her to be anything less than the blessed child of God that she is, with her sexual orientation intact, precisely the way God made her, I believe you would be doing her a kindness. But you’ll have to decide whether you are willing to take that risk. Personally, I think saving the lives of such young people by helping them understand that they ARE okay just the way God made them, and that their love is not “sick” or “disgusting,” not something to hide or be ashamed of, is incredibly important.
Those who trifle with the lives and emotions of young people by instilling shame and self-loathing in them, do so at the risk of tragically causing the loss of these young lives. And I don’t think there is ANYTHING Godly about that.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
I used to be Mormon, but I left the church. I spent many years as a liberal unbeliever. During that time I was a strong advocate for gay rights. Things changed for me when the Holy Spirit brought me to faith in Jesus. After that, I turned to God’s Word for answers to everything. So, in my opinion it doesn’t matter what the Church thinks about this young woman’s sexual preference. What I care about is how Heavenly Father views it.
In 1 Corinthians chapter 6, the Apostle Paul tells us:
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” ( I use the New International Version Translation).
According to Gods Word, homosexuality is a sin. This sin will keep her out of the Kingdom of God! This is what concerns me for this young woman, and anything else does not matter!
But, what this young woman will NOT hear from her LDS leaders is that homosexuality is no worse than the sin of lying, or gossiping. ALL sins are the same in God’s eyes. But, praise the Lord, forgiveness is freely offered.
if you read the next verse, you find the solution to homosexuality: “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
Through the blood of Jesus, anyone with sexual sins has been washed clean of all of their sins! And, we see that people who “were” this way, no longer are.
This is also the answer to ANY sin. But, in Mormonism, you are taught you must do all these works to gain forgiveness. This is not true!
Comment by latterdaysaintwoman — January 22, 2009 @ 2:30 pm
latterdaysaintswoman, I’m pretty sure that the poster doesn’t want this thread to become an argument about what the Bible says about homosexuality, but I really must say that your post about “scriptural proof” that same-gender relationships are universally “sinful” or condemned rests upon a great deal of misinformation, misinterpretation and misuse of scripture, including disregard for literary and cultural context and dependence upon texts which diverge dramatically from original source material
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 2:35 pm
#17 - I agree with alot of what you say, namely with the difference between sexual confusion and actually being gay, and trying to differentiate the two. They ARE very different things, and I think it can be hard to separate them.
Where I disagree with you is in the idea that its ok with God if we act on those impulses, and that we should somehow ignore what God has said. We can love her, we can help her to make good choices, and we can accept whatever choices she makes, but the fact remains that we do have a duty to teach what we know to be true - which is, that if she does have sex outside of wedlock - whether with someone of the same or a different sex - that is still violating the law of chastity that God put forth.
#18 - Acts of a homosexual nature Mormons believe to be of a slightly different nature than lying, for the same reason that we believe sex out of wedlock to be different from lying. You’re tampering with the way spirits enter (reproduction) or leave (murder) this life, and God places a much higher bar for those.
I must also disagree with the “But, in Mormonism, you are taught you must do all these works to gain forgiveness.” We are not taught that we must be perfect to gain eternal life, but be striving for perfection. “We are saved by grace after all we can do.” Different peoples’ best are different for one from the other. Perhaps, this young woman decides that the “best she can do” is to love who she loves, rather than commit suicide. Its what’s in her heart, her relationship with God, and HER (not my) best.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 2:41 pm
latterdaysaintswoman : Per Leviticus 20:18……”And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.”……. So in other words, if we take everything that is said in the bible literally, you should be banished and/or damned if you sleep with your husband while you’re surfing the “crimson wave”…. I’d seriously read the entire bible with all of it’s craziness before you start taking it too literally.
As to the topic on hand. I would talk to the young lady, if she’s willing, and tell her how I feel. I don’t think God would judge us for pursuing happiness for ourselves by being ourselves.
Comment by bible has some craziness in it — January 22, 2009 @ 2:59 pm
As long as it doesn’t harm others I mean…. and I don’t think homosexuality harms anyone! If anything it helps society! We have a huge population problem on our hands peeps!
Comment by bible has some craziness in it — January 22, 2009 @ 3:03 pm
However, if the option of marrying the person she loves is denied her by law, I do not believe this is an obstacle in God’s eyes.
Marriage existed as a practical institution long before it became a legal OR religious institution. Marriage is, first and foremost, a commitment between the two persons who are marrying. As such, it is a spiritual act which is engaged in, regardless of societal or legal sanction.
I do not, for instance, believe that mixed-raced couples in the early part of the 20th century (and before) who committed themselves to one another and held themselves forth as married were any less married in the eyes of God than their contemporaries who were permitted by law to engage in a legal contract of marriage in the eyes of the government of their state. Nor do I believe that my partner and I were any less married in eyes of God during the 17 years we were together before we were legally permitted to enter a marriage contract in the eyes of the state this past June.
I agree, and I think this is one of the most profound things I have read on this subject. While some might read the phrase, “the best she can do” as a pejorative of a same-gender relationship, I find it moving and uplifting, because I believe that “the best we can do” is for each of us both a comfort for our human frailties AND an assertion of our calling from God. Each of us has our own path, our own calling from God. None of us should attempt to force ourselves down another person’s path — that would NOT be the “best we could do.” The very BEST and HIGHEST calling we have is the calling which God gives to EACH of us as an individual.
Thank you for this thought. It is beautiful.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 3:08 pm
I’m so tired of fearing what the Church thinks.
Duly noted.
Comment by queuno — January 22, 2009 @ 3:08 pm
#23 - Marriage existed as a practical institution long before it became a legal OR religious institution.
But we as Mormons believe that Adam and Eve were married in the garden of Eden, hence making it a religious institution first. The law of chastity dictates that we only have sexual relations with those to whom we are legally AND lawfully wedded. We believe in upholding the law of the land, as well. If someone wants to marry a minor, this is not allowed; it is not legal. You must wait until that minor is of age.
Of course, this all does raise the question of same-sex marriages abroad, where they are allowed and are lawfully.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 3:15 pm
Joseph smith wasn’t lawfully wedded to all of his 33-35 wives was he? On top of that he got Sylvia Sessions preggers….so sex was definitely happening there. I think your point is moot…. :o/
Comment by bible has some craziness in it — January 22, 2009 @ 3:21 pm
Yes, Katie, it does. And here in the US, in Massachusetts, Connecticut (soon), and also those of use who were married in CA last summer, whose marriages were NOT invalidated by Prop 8 — at least thus far in the proceedings.
And it also raises the question of the people I mentioned earlier — mixed race couples who could not legally marry until the antimiscegenation laws were done away with by Loving v. Virginia. I am absolutely certain that God did not consider those couples to be “living in sin” when they formed committed bonds of marriage with one another, in spite of their state’s refusal to accept that they could be rightfully married.
While we are certainly bound to obey the laws of the land, insofar as they do not contradict what God expects from us, God is in no way limited by the vaguaries of human legalities. It is very possible that a person could do something of which God would approve (say, a mixed-race couple marrying one another) but to which the state might not grant its stamp of approval. I do not and cannot believe that God would consider such a couple to be living in a state of unwedded sin.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 3:23 pm
#26 - I don’t know much about polygamist history, nor (honestly) do I really want to know, so I can’t comment on that.
However, I think there is an issue with trying to say “anything and everything is ok to do”. Why have laws? Why have God, for that matter, if it doesn’t matter what we do? We are taught that sex outside marriage is wrong, and therefore (at least as parents) have a sacred responsibility to teach it. I don’t really understand how we can just argue that away; it doesn’t seem good to me. If it is ok to have sex outside marriage, as long as it doesn’t hurt you - is adultery ok? Murder? Lying? Deceit? You see my point?
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 3:25 pm
Who said “anything and everything is okay to do”?
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 3:25 pm
What about “living in sin” with a minor who is 14, but his 34 yo lover loves him? Is that also not wrong, because it is in the name of “love”? I just think its murky water, when you say that anything and everything can be ok.
I agree with you, Lorian, about the same-sex marriages. All I can say is, I’m glad I didn’t live then. And I know it will all get sorted out somewhere. But we have the responsibility to teach others what we believe (as Mormons) to be God’s laws, if we have responsibility over them - even if, like the cases you noted, we very, very, very strongly disagree with them.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 3:29 pm
Who said “anything and everything is okay to do”?
Perhaps I misunderstood, but that was what I understand from the “it doesn’t matter whether or not its legal” approach. Adultery is legal, but the church teaches it is wrong - but if the spouse really loves the person they are cheating with, is it wrong?
I guess I just don’t think that “I love XYZ person” is a good enough reason for why something should be ok.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 3:31 pm
And please note - I am NOT equating pedophilia with homosexuality, I was just using these as examples of where love and law differ.
“A bird can love a fish, Sire, but where would they live?”
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 3:33 pm
I don’t know why you would be kicked out as Sunday School teacher. Who would ever tell anyone that you had said anything? However, I don’t think you should get involved in her personal life like that. Won’t that just make her more confused than ever?
I hope no one ever said that having homosexual feelings was a sin. It’s the immoral acts that are sins. Everyone has their favorite sins. Why justify them?
Comment by Michelle Glauser — January 22, 2009 @ 3:35 pm
I see your point.. but to me, it’s pretty misguided. Per the statement you just made “If it is ok to have sex outside marriage, as long as it doesn’t hurt you - is adultery ok? Murder? Lying? Deceit?”. What I said was that I don’t think it’s wrong be yourself and do what would bring your own happiness as long as it doesn’t harm others. ‘Others’ being the key word here. How can you even compare all the so called sins you are describing? Homosexuality on the same par as murder, deceit, and adultery? Really?? Murder, lies, and adultery harm the people you are committing them against. What harm does homosexuality cause? I think these are pretty archaic views. I really hope research and understanding will help you see things more clearly….. :o/
Comment by bible has some craziness in it — January 22, 2009 @ 3:37 pm
To return the focus to the OP:
“It has been brought to my attention that one of my students is Gay”
Who brought this to your attention? If it was the bishop who brought it to your attention, why did he tell you? What did he want you to do with that information? How did he want you, as the student’s SS teacher, to help this kid? If it wasn’t the bishop, was this just gossip? Again, what does the person want you to do with this information? (On an unrelated note, I am *really* bothered that this type of sensitive information is given to a kid’s SS teacher–if it was the bishop who told you, why isn’t he keeping this info confidential?)
“I do not believe that being homosexual is a sin.”
Neither does the church–now. The church’s website has some current thoughts about this.
Re: the student, you wrote: “she knows the Gospel believes it- you can see that in her participation and the answers she gives and just the enjoyment she has in learning.”
I think you will have to respect where she is at spiritually and religiously. If she believes X, and you believe Y, and her belief in X makes her happy and works for her, why would you, an influential SS teacher want to bring her to your way of thinking?
And re: the student: “there is a lot of confusion in her life- everyone she knows and loves and depends on is telling her that she is wrong for they way she feels/ wrong for who she loves/ and sinning by doing so.”
*IF* you have that relationship with her where you can discuss such private issues as her sexuality (previous posts have mentioned being a trustworthy friend first), then I would point her toward the church’s current thoughts about homosexuality. Hopefully she will then not feel like she is wrong or sinning just for being gay.
“This student is being helped by the Bishopric on how to move past this “Sin””
How do you know for sure what the bishop is telling her?
“I want to help this girl”
I think that it is wonderful that you want to help her, and probably at least a part of why you were called to be her SS teacher. Good luck.
Comment by janescott — January 22, 2009 @ 3:41 pm
Can we please avoid turning this into a discussion of anything other than the situation described in the post - especially through comments that simply are incorrect and misguided. This is a sensitive and difficult issue; it doesn’t deserve to be derailed.
1) The Church does not teach any longer that homosexual attraction is a sin. That is my biggest concern - that the bishop not be telling this person something the Church is not teaching.
2) As a teacher, this topic should NEVER come up in class. It is too explosive and the conversation in a teenage class could spiral out of control way too quickly. Also, this person might feel unduly singled-out in a group setting.
3) You did not make clear in the post how you learned of this - who it was that told you about it. That can make a big difference.
4) Human sexuality is not hard-wired for many at this age. “Pressing” someone to accept homosexuality is no different than “pressing” someone to accept heterosexuality - IF that person isn’t sure. Again, that’s not clear in the post.
5) No matter the details, love this person and support this person and, in your calling as a SS teacher, teach the core principles of the Gospel.
Comment by Ray — January 22, 2009 @ 3:42 pm
What I said was that I don’t think it’s wrong be yourself and do what would bring your own happiness as long as it doesn’t harm others. ‘Others’ being the key word here.
Big Ooopsy… I missed the word “Others” in your statement.
My bad :O
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 3:42 pm
Also, could we *not* make this post into prop 8 (which I hated with every fiber of my liberal body), into the veracity of the Bible (which I agree is screwy), into anything other than the OP? I think there are a lot of posts on this site that already went into all of these things, and comments are still probably being taken on those posts, too.
My $.02.
Comment by janescott — January 22, 2009 @ 3:46 pm
Well, first of all, partnering with a same-gender partner is NOT illegal. Whether such couples are granted civil rights accorded to other married couples or not is not a declaration that their relationship is illegal.
As to your bringing up the issue of pedophilia, there are several reasons why it is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand (and, incidentally, quite insulting in this context, but I’ll put that aside because I am fairly sure your intent was not to cause insult — at least, I hope so).
Children cannot give informed consent to sexual activity. This is a function of biology and brain development, an accepted societal understanding, AND a legal fact. Therefore (in our cultural, anyway) a child cannot marry, whether the prospective spouse is an adult or another child. Child marriage causes distinct and demonstrable harm, as does child molestation.
Child marriage and child molestation are as separate and distinct from same-gender marriage as they are from adult opposite-gender marriage.
My point is that whether or not it is legal for same-gender couples to marry is not relevant to the question of whether or not it is sinful for same-gender couples to marry (or commit to one another). Marriage laws change, and are different from state to state and country to country. The laws of the land do not determine what is acceptable to God.
Those who oppose gay marriage would have to agree with me, I would think, since most of them probably do not consider legal gay marriages in California and elsewhere valid in God’s eyes, just because the state says they are legal. The flip side of that concept is that just because the state REFUSES to grant a LEGAL marriage does not mean that God is compelled to condemn something simply because the state doesn’t grant it.
The state neither makes, nor enforces, God’s law. You and I may disagree about God’s law, but the state’s law is not proof on either side of the argument.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 3:48 pm
My bad, sorry. Will be better.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
Ray, I must disagree. Sexual orientation IS hardwired. At any age. However, some people are hardwired in a more bisexual way.
It is as potentially damaging to leave a young lesbian with the impression that who she is and who she loves are unacceptable and sinful and evil as it would be to try to force a young heterosexual person to “try to be gay.”
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 3:54 pm
BTW, my post # 39 was in response to posts further up the thread. I am not attempting to derail, but I find it difficult to stand by when things are said about me and people like me which I find to be blatantly incorrect.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 3:56 pm
Lorian = Awesome!
Sorry to have gone so off topic before…. guess this type of issue always gets my blood boiling for some reason ;)…
I hope your student will decide to do what she feels will make her happy rather than conforming to what the people around her think.
This is not at all the same thing, but I had a young woman’s teacher that I absolutely loved because she didn’t judge me for my “rebellious” ways. She was my friend no matter what. I think It might be important for you to befriend her and give her your honest opinion. It could mean more to her than you might think.
Comment by bible has some craziness in it — January 22, 2009 @ 3:57 pm
In a study that came out last month, here, 2/3 of gay teenagers whose families had a negative reaction to their sexuality tried to kill themselves. Pretty bad. They also had much higher instances of dangerous unprotected sex and drug abuse. If you can do something to protect this child from seriously harming herself, by not rejecting her, by accepting her, it is your duty AS A HUMAN to do so.
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 4:08 pm
Djinn, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 4:12 pm
A bit more from that study; rejection is very broadly defined.
From Discover magazine, here. The actual study, from the Journal Pediatrics, is behind a firewall.
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 4:17 pm
I’d like to see some statistics/instances of evidence for the “hardwired/not hardwired at a certain age” thing… in either direction. But that would be a threadjack I guess…
Comment by sare — January 22, 2009 @ 4:21 pm
[…] One of My Sunday School Students is Gay […]
Pingback by Our Thoughts » Blog Archive » One of My Sunday School Students is Gay — January 22, 2009 @ 4:26 pm
Sare, are you straight? Have you ever fallen in love with someone of your own gender? When you fell in love with your spouse, could you have stopped loving that person without extreme trauma because of your family or church authority’s disapproval? WOULD you have? Would it have been traumatic to you to be rejected by your family for loving your spouse-to-be?
Do you think any of those feelings were not genuine? Do you think you could have forced yourself to start being attracted to people of a different gender than the one you are most attracted to sexually?
This girl in the Sunday School class should be given the same benefit as any straight teen. Her feelings are as real, as valid for her, as theirs are for them. And yet, theirs are supported (yes, guided towards delayed gratification because most teens aren’t ready for the emotions and commitments of overtly sexual relationships, but still — supported) while hers are denied. She is told that there is something wrong with who she is and how she loves. Even if she is not told that her feelings, themselves, are sinful, she is still told quite plainly that they are wrong. She must not act on them. She must attempt to suppress them, must try to divert them into someplace they would not normally go.
This is DAMAGING, no matter how “lovingly” it may be done. It is misguided and hurtful.
If she is not gay (or bisexual) — if this is just a “phase” — she will not end up marrying a woman. She will be attracted to whomever she is attracted to, will experience her life as she experiences it, and will ultimately fall in love with the right person for her, whether that person is a man or a woman. Nothing that is said or done to her now will change that.
But what is said or done to her now WILL change — will support or tear away at — her mental and emotional health and well-being. She IS who she is. Trying to compel her to be someone she is not will not make her into that person. It will simply damage her.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 4:38 pm
As to hardwired/not hardwired, the most thorough study was one that used all twins in Sweden. Here’s the results through the magic of Wikipedia.
Basically, a bit of this, a bit of that. However, few people see their sexuality as a choice. Do you?
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 4:41 pm
I think that there is a range of sexuality and I am not convinced that someone at 16 has the maturity and self actualization to make that decision for life. And before someone asks, I don’t think a 16 year old should be choosing to be heterosexual at that age either. Teenagers, despite their crazy hormones, really need to wait on sex until they are not teenagers.
The big question on homosexuality for me is “is this an eternal trait?” If not, then I can see why the church makes the stand it does. You fall in love, adopt some kids, then you die and suddenly the attraction is gone. You are stuck for all eternity with someone you don’t desire. That could be very bad. But if homosexuality is eternal, then let’s say you repress, marry someone of the opposite gender, then die and realize you are never going to want the other person and you are tied to them for all eternity. Again not good. So, it isn’t really a question of sin, but potential eternal consequences.
Comment by Tami — January 22, 2009 @ 4:41 pm
Oh, and as to choice, why would anyone choose to completely disappoint their family, be rejected by their family and peers, be at a much elevated risk of hate crimes (18% of all reported), and in 30 states be able to be legally fired if their sexual orientation is known. Pretty brutal.
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
Other twin studies have demonstrated that identicals have a much higher chance, if one is gay, that the other will be also. It is not 100%, but there are some excellent reasons why this could be the case.
It is highly likely that sexual orientation is controlled by a series of recessive genes acting in concert, some of which may be quite fragile and subject to mutations during early cell divisions based on factors such as uterine environment. It is also likely that some twins who experience their sexual orientation as “homosexual” may actually fall somewhere on the spectrum of bisexuality, meaning that their twin might just as likely be attracted by a person of the opposite gender and end up in a heterosexual marriage.
We do not have voluntary control over our sexual orientation — a fact which LDS leadership has tacitly acknowledged by admitting that people with same-gender attractions are not sinning by being attracted to their own gender. I, however, find a deep and abiding inconsistency in admitting that a person’s sexual orientation is pretty much inherent and immutable (which is essentially what church leadership is admitting with their stance) but acting upon it (EVER) is sinful.
I understand that we cannot act on our every sexual whim or feeling — otherwise we’d be guilty of rape, adultery and many other sexual wrongs. But to tell someone that they can NEVER, EVER act upon their most basic sexual attractions and desires, even with a willing, loving and committed partner, even while admitting that those desires are innate to that person’s sexual identity, is nonsensical.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 4:52 pm
This is good, Tami, and I agree. But the issue here is that the teens who manifest as “heterosexual” are supported, loved and given approval — even if they are not permitted to engage in sex. On the other hand, teens who manifest as “homosexual” are discouraged, rejected, denied, told to change, told to suppress, told that they could not possibly be feeling what they are feeling, told that their feelings are evil, told that it would be evil to act on those feelings — with ANYONE, EVER.
Their experience of their life is completely different. And if you acknowledge that they may, in fact, really feel what they feel and that those feelings may really be theirs for life, I think it should be obvious how damaging the different responses might be.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 4:56 pm
Nothing to add. Just chimed in to say that this is an enormously entertaining thread, between the varieties of antimormons and nutsos. THANK YOU FMH!!
Comment by Steve Evans — January 22, 2009 @ 5:02 pm
But it still comes back to the same issue; we are discussing a Mormon Sunday School teacher. If approached by the student, isn’t she OBLIGATED by duty of her calling and stewardship to say what the church teaches (that homosexual acts are a sin)? Even if the teacher says she personally does not believe this to be the case?
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 5:02 pm
Katie #56 - Assuming for the moment that it is emotionally damaging to gay teens to reject them for their sexual orientation (or try to “fix” their orientation by condemning it), then supporting what she is being told about her sexual orientation in this situation would be contributing to that damage.
If that is the case (as I believe it to be) would it be morally correct to add to the damage being inflicted on this girl by supporting what other church leaders are saying to her? Or would it be morally correct to attempt to mitigate that damage by offering her whatever support, comfort or affirmation the OP feels able to offer?
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 5:08 pm
So, would you recommend that, if personally approached on the topic by the student, that the OP just ignore the Church’s teachings (ie, just be a friend, listen, etc., but do not bring up the issue and do not answer any direct questions on it made to her), or that she actively teach the opposite (ie., tell her that the LDS church teaches that God thinks homosexual acts accrue no harm)? As another poster said - anything she says will be viewed as “the Church’s” stance, ie, “My teacher said…”
I guess I worry that the girl is getting misinformation from her bishop or whoever else, telling her that Mormons believe the SSA itself is a sin, and not the act. I understand that it is emotionally damaging to gay teens to reject them - but surely it is worse to be told that YOU are sinful, YOU are wrong, etc., than to be told there IS a way to be a Mormon in good standing and accept your SSA desires.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 5:18 pm
Oh - I’ve tried to stay away from this thread.
But Katie, your last comment in #56 just got me.
If she is approached by her student then it is BobbieLoLo’s duty (if we want to use that word) to say what she believes. “We believe in being honest, true…” seems to stand out.
Comment by Shelly — January 22, 2009 @ 5:19 pm
djinn, thank you v. v. much for the link to the study in Pediatrics . Absolutely heartbreaking.
Comment by sister blah 2 — January 22, 2009 @ 5:21 pm
Katie #58 - No. I don’t propose that the OP lie to the girl about the Mormon church’s stance. I am suggesting that if, in this case, the OP disagrees with the stance of the church (and I’m not saying she does or does not — just that IF she does) then she needs to consider her moral obligation not to participate in an action which could be terribly emotionally damaging to this girl.
The scientific evidence is quite clear, that attempting to change a young gay person’s sexual orientation is damaging. And telling her that her same-gender attraction is not “sinful” in and of itself, but is sinful if she acts on it, is really the same thing. Both statements tell her that an inherent part of who she is, is bad, wrong, evil, a mistake. And this is hurtful, harmful, damaging, and may lead her to eventually kill herself or otherwise harm herself. And it will NOT result in “correcting” her sexual orientation.
The OP has the option, if opportunity arises, to tell this girl that she disagrees, to tell her that she is the person God made her to be, and that her responsibility as a child of God is to behave responsibly, morally and lovingly within the context of the sexual orienation God gave her, not to attempt to force herself to be someone she is not.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 5:27 pm
Steve Evans, If you are calling me an antimormon or a nutso for A) providing evidence that gay teens without supportive parents have extraordinarily bad outcomes, and B) suggesting that someone behave decently when given the chance to make an actual difference in an actual humans life, well, all I can say is I am using all my powers to not violate the FMH commenting policy; oh, and I feel for your children.
PS. All instances of the Bible decrying Homosexuality as they exist are explicitly male-gendered. The Bible’s down with lesbianism, the issue in question. And, yes, it was understood at the time, considering at least one Attic (the Greek period not the house part) of which I am familiar.
What does the Book of Mormon say?
13:9 The show of their countenance doth witness against them, and doth declare their sin to be even as Sodom, and they cannot hide it. Wo unto their souls, for they have rewarded evil unto themselves!
Sodomy did not equal homosexuality in the 19th century. It’s a modern reading. Sodomy was much more inclusive. So, I’m not saying that Homosexuality was OK, just that practices which Mormonism now allows (Oral Sex) also fell under the umbrella.
So, we have the Prophets current views, which are getting milder as we type. Be kind, why deliberately be mean, to a child? What good can come of this?
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 5:28 pm
Attic vase, plus random other errors, sorry. Must calm down. Deep breaths.
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 5:29 pm
djinn, relax - you were not one of the entertaining commenters, just one of the good ones.
Comment by Steve Evans — January 22, 2009 @ 5:30 pm
For anyone interested in this topic, the OP included, I would recommend the following blog:
http://soymademegay.blogspot.com
Soy Made Me Gay is written by a gay, active Mormon man. Clint is in his 20s, and came out as a teen. He talks for himself and other active Mormons he knows who have come out of the closet to their wards and been accepted for who they are, and how they deal with SSA while avoiding temptation.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 5:35 pm
Am I coming across as an “anti-mormon”? If so, then my intent has been misunderstood.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
Surely he doesn’t really believe that soy made him gay?
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
He also talks about what it is like to be a gay Mormon, and how we all can help gay Mormons to stay active and how we (particularly as parents) should respond to them when they come out.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
Oh, and of course, (where is my mind?) Sappho, etc.
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
No, he is just joking when he says “Soy made me gay.” Alot of the blog is tongue-in-cheek.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
Bad link:
I wonder if he still subscribes to the views you attribute to him.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 5:37 pm
Good to know, Katie. Thanks.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 5:38 pm
http://www.soymademegay.com/
Sorry my bad. Cut and paste is better
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 5:38 pm
First, I would have found it extremely creepy and disturbing to discuss sex, sexual attraction, or the like with my sunday school teacher. Much less to have the teacher approach me.
Now as an adult, I don’t think I want my kids sunday school teachers discussing sexuality with them either. At least not without approaching me first. This has nothing to do with gender, or which gender one is attracted to. Certain topics just go outside the bounds.
If you do want to let her feel accepted, perhaps bring up analgous situations where the gospel teaches us to be accepting.
Second, the best thing you could do for this daughter of god is to help her feel the spirit. Help her to feel God’s love, and learn of the Doctrines of Christ. A focus on the Gospel and obtaining personal inspiration in her life is the best thing she can do. Internal strength beats external support. The reason casts are worn is to allow the bones to heal, not to be a permanent support.
if the church is a tent, she maybe worried about whether the tent flap is open or closed, but it won’t matter if the central pole is missing. (Horrible analogy, but I hope you get the point.)
Comment by ola senor — January 22, 2009 @ 5:39 pm
I see no reason why you couldn’t take her aside and say something like, “I know you are struggling with a few things at the moment. I want you to know that I will always be here for you if you want to talk. I promise not to judge, and I’ll do all I can to be supportive of your choices.”
Ultimately, your approval or non-approval won’t make a difference to her orientation - it’s not like she’s going to stop being gay just because her parents and bishop disapprove; and it’s not like she’s going to be a raging homosexual just because you say you don’t have a problem with it. But knowing that someone cares about her and doesn’t care about her sexuality could make a difference between life and death for a teen struggling with homosexuality.
It’s not your place to judge - it’s your place to lend support and to love unconditionally. That’s all Christ asks of any of us.
Comment by Quimby — January 22, 2009 @ 5:39 pm
I think a large number of gay people raised in religious homes attempt celibate commitments for a period of time. Not many pursue this avenue for a lifetime, though. Humans simply are not (for the most part) made for celibate, solitary lives.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 5:40 pm
Quimby — Great post.
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 5:40 pm
“And telling her that her same-gender attraction is not “sinful” in and of itself, but is sinful if she acts on it, is really the same thing. Both statements tell her that an inherent part of who she is, is bad, wrong, evil, a mistake.”
Is it really the same thing?
So if I have inherent part of me that has a quick temper or an excessive anger, should I make no distinction between thought and act?
Comment by ola senor — January 22, 2009 @ 5:44 pm
Lifelong celibacy is different (completely completely completely different) than learning to curb your temper. Are you a virgin, ola senor? If not, you have no business commenting on such.
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 6:05 pm
If all of us would follow the Prophet/Brethren, there would not be any room for discussion on this topic or any other “fringe” topic or behavior.
I have a cousin that died of AIDS and an uncle that is a liberal gay. I love my relatives gay or straight.
It would do everyone, including myself, well to read the Procamation on the Family once a month or so. This inspired document (and wow, with the going’s on of late Prop. 8 etc.how inspired for the year 1995) leaves little room for argument.
Everybody seems to want to have their voice heard and have their opinion voiced, no matter how it fits with our inspired leaders. I can think of one parable, that being the parable of the wise and the foolish virgins, that fits many who strut their opinions on this site…
SC
Comment by Zdefender — January 22, 2009 @ 6:13 pm
I don’t know why I continue to be surprised by the people who think they know the simple easy answers to everything.
Comment by fMhLisa — January 22, 2009 @ 6:19 pm
As to the OP, I think I agree that an in-class discussion would not be appropriate in most contexts. If a student brought it up, well, then I think you would have to discuss it, but what you said and how would really depend a lot on what and how the student brought up. I don’t think you should teach something you don’t believe. You could bring up the churches (recently amended) stance, but I don’t think you’d have to. And I would definitely keep the emphasis on love, loving each other, and knowing our heavenly parents will love us, no matter what.
I also agree that it would be okay in a quiet private moment to let her know that you are there for her, if she needs someone to talk to. And if she comes to you, then it would be appropriate to be forthright about your beliefs.
On the one hand, it would be wrong to teach something about which you don’t have a testimony, It’s never a good idea to lie in the name of being obedient to our leaders, but on the other hand, there is a season for every purpose under heaven. And while I don’t think the middle of a Sunday School class is the right place for such a delicate personal conversation, there are times and places that would be appropriate. For sure, if you can help her, accept her, love her, then do.
Comment by fMhLisa — January 22, 2009 @ 7:01 pm
And although it may sound trite, and although you are already doing it, I think that praying about this girl, and praying for opportunities and the knowledge of how the help her - since God alone knows her situation- and how and what to say and when, is also necessary.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 7:04 pm
ola senor, do you really see your sexual and emotional bond with your spouse in the same category as a grumpy mood, to be changed at will?
Do you think that, in the same manner you might go to therapy to help you control your temper, you could just as easily have the therapist turn you from straight to gay? Do you think it would be possible to make you turn from a straight person to a gay person?
Comment by Lorian — January 22, 2009 @ 7:10 pm
I have had a lot of LGBT individuals tell me that coming out is a big deal. I would just lend a hand of support to all the students in your class and tell them you are there for them if needed. I would wait for your student to come out to you.
Comment by Shannon — January 22, 2009 @ 7:18 pm
Shannon, I never ever in a million years would have believed that a Sunday School teacher, giving what sounded like a rote recitation of being there if I needed them, would venture that it meant being there if I needed them for something that might venture outside of the lines of her role as an LDS teacher, with all the baggage implied.
Comment by djinn — January 22, 2009 @ 7:32 pm
Out of curiousity to BobbieLoLo, and things for her to consider - what is the SS student’s family situation like? Is she a youth convert? Or does she have a long history in the church? Are her parents active Mormons, or inactive? Do you suspect her parents know? Is she getting grief at home? Does she have a good relationship with her folks? Do you know her parents and talk to them regularly?
I think alot of this things might influence your own influence in this girl’s life, and also indicate the degree of stress or non-stress she might be under.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 7:49 pm
“I don’t know why I continue to be surprised by the people who think they know the simple easy answers to everything.”
Because it is simple - until it affects you.
Comment by Ola senor — January 22, 2009 @ 8:22 pm
Lorian
“ola senor, do you really see your sexual and emotional bond with your spouse in the same category as a grumpy mood, to be changed at will?”
Again not the question. not the distinction. But you didn’t like my comment so you change it.
My comment was that there is a distinction between thought and act. And that there are those who have a inherent tendency towards a certain course of action, but that inherent tendency does not control the act.
If a heterosexual male has inherent attraction to multiple females, does this require polygamy, bigamy, or multiple sexual partners?
I don’t know if it is possible to turn from “gay” to “straight”,and don’t believe this to be a likely solution for most if not all people who suffer from SSA. That is why I do not judge, nor do I condemn, and make every effort to include all people, including those who are gay or suffer from SSA or however they might describe themselves.
The point is, if you have a sincere belief in Christ, in the atonement and in the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, including modern prophets, you have a duty to constrain your actions within a certain code.
I do not believe that teaching that code is exclusionary. When christ taught that we should not look upon a person to lust after them, does that mean that these people are evil and condemned? if so, we better excommunicate 90% of all teenaged boys.
The principle that the should always be taught is to make the gospel and atonement of Jesus Christ central in our lives, and to mold our spirits, minds and conduct into the standard that follows.
Its not easy, and there is no one right course of action to take for all circumstances. That is why every person has the right to individual spiritual guidance.
Comment by Ola senor — January 22, 2009 @ 8:32 pm
www.evergreeninternational.org
Same sex attraction is not the problem, it is a symptom of the real problem. Satan is fooling people into thinking that they are born gay and is tricking them into living unproductive and unfulfilling lives.
Comment by dara miranda — January 22, 2009 @ 8:47 pm
Interesting - I just started looking at that website in #90, which appears to be LDS-centered. Is it LDS-approved?
Here are some of the things on it:
There are really two aspects: feelings and behaviors. We believe homosexual behaviors are out of harmony with God’s intentions for men and women. Those who wish to stop their homosexual behavior can do so.
The feelings, often referred to as same-sex or same-gender attraction, can be very troublesome, but they are not sinful. People do not choose to be attracted to the same gender.
I did not see anywhere on there where it said that Satan makes people think they are born gay - can you point me to it? It did say that the biological evidence so far has been inconclusive; there may be a genetic role, but that it is not the only role:
It is difficult to develop theories about the origins of same-sex attractions because no single theory fits every situation. Sexual and emotional issues are the result of a complex interaction of personality, biological inheritance, and developmental experiences.
Comment by Katie — January 22, 2009 @ 8:58 pm
As her teacher, I would clean her carpet.
Good luck dealing with her parents and Bishop after she says… My teacher approves and supports me.
Comment by robert — January 22, 2009 @ 9:14 pm
#90 is a good example of why we should stick to the focus of the post, since it’s statements are in direct opposition to the current stance of the Church. Also, any author deserves the respect that exhibits itself in such focus. Turning this post into just another slugfest on homosexuality is sad.
Comment by Ray — January 22, 2009 @ 9:14 pm
No great pearls of wisdom here - just simple advice. Love her. Love her. Love her.
Her knowing you care about her as a person beyond just being in your class is, imo, the most vital thing you can do for her. Unfortunately, the rest is between her, her family, and the bishop.
Comment by Chris — January 22, 2009 @ 9:18 pm
As a Sunday School teacher this is not your responsibility and none of your business. Obviously, at least the Bishop and probably her parents are involved. No one should even be sharing this throughout the ward. If you want to help, go to the Lord and prayer and fasting and pray for her to receive the help, testimony and guidance that she needs to make her own decisions with grace and with confidence. Teach our wonderful lessons from the gospel and prepare diligently and you will be doing much more to help her as a whole person as she becomes an adult.
May I recommend www.northstarlds.org to you as a place where you can find information and solace for yourself as a “friend” of a gay teen.
Comment by Be at peace — January 22, 2009 @ 9:23 pm
Huh, for a while there I was wondering if Lorian was really my brother–you have a lot of the same opinions (though he’s a little young to have had a partner for 17 years, and he’d better invite me to his wedding if he ever decides to get married!)
I had a hard time with my brother’s sexual orientation when he came out. In my defense, he was 12 (and definitely interested in girls) when I left for college, and he came out when he was 16-ish, which I still think is a little young to be sure (though not according to most of the gays I’ve talked to. I remember being rather sexually confused myself at that time, so I assume it’s that way for everyone). I went so far as to ask him to try dating girls just to make sure he wasn’t just avoiding girls because he thought they were all psychos, and he was a good sport and did. And he still didn’t like girls, and I’ve come to terms with his orientation and am very glad he didn’t marry a girl.
One of the things that was very hard for him, I think, was feeling like he was a pariah at church. He’s a very spiritual person and I think at one time had a strong testimony of the gospel. He may still, actually–we haven’t discussed church things in a while–but going to church has been a struggle at times, largely because of interpersonal interactions. I do know those people who befriended him and accepted him for who he was, and in particular forged friendships based on common interests, made his life in church much easier. Some of his friends started out as Sunday school teachers, too.
I would suggest you befriend her, not because she’s gay, but because she needs a friend, especially a friend with whom she shares interests and hobbies. It’s important to be accepting of her sexuality, but I think it’s even more important to show her you accept all of her and want to be her friend and not just in response to her sexuality. She, just like any adolescent girl, needs to be reminded that she is a precious, valued daughter of a Father in Heaven who loves her, and needs to have adults who show her that in their treatment of her.
Comment by kristine N — January 22, 2009 @ 9:29 pm
Fascinating post, BobbieLoLo. I am also curious how this situation came to your attention. Who told you?
Personally, I think you should avoid bringing up the subject directly with your student. The fact that you know may entail a breach of confidentiality on someone’s part. If she finds out you know she may assume everyone knows, and the whole situation could blow up in a bad way. Exercise extreme caution in that mine field.
But I do agree with the suggestion that you just befriend her (in whatever way is appropriate between you and a student). Find ways to communicate your political liberalism and tolerant views. Heck, your whole class might benefit from knowing that not every faithful Mormon is a lock-step conservative. You might wind up keeping others active in the Church too.
Comment by MikeInWeHo — January 23, 2009 @ 12:02 am
Just responding to the original post:
Don’t approach the kid and undermine what the bishop is telling them unless the kid specifically expresses doubts about it and asks for your input. You’ll just confuse the kid and do more harm than good.
I agree with you that the bishop may be handling it wrong. But undermining an authority figure that the child has been taught to look up to will cause a lot of confusion and probably won’t be helpful. It’s like talking bad about a kid’s mom in front of him - even if it’s true, you’re just making things worse.
Furthermore, I’m not really convinced that you know the full story about how the bishop is handling this and what he is actually saying to the kid. If you blunder in there now on an incomplete story and find out later that you didn’t really have the full measure of the bishop…
Probably not a good idea.
If the kid asks for your opinion specifically, you are probably safe to give it. However, absent that, I would confine myself to expressing my concerns in a non-threatening way to the bishop in question.
You might point out General Conference statements to the effect that mere homosexual tendencies - in and of themselves - are not considered sins by modern General Authorities.
That’s really all you can do. Sometimes, as much as we want to, we just can’t fix what is wrong with people.
Comment by Seth R. — January 23, 2009 @ 12:03 am
To Lisa fmh; post #81. If you’re “surprised” comment is referring to my reference to the Proclamation on the Family…
Here you go: No, not everything (maybe not many things) in life are simple. I didn’t mean to infer that. But too many of us are going to psychiatrists, taking prescription medication, and now fretting about “coming out” etc…
We all need physicians from time to time. Many of us would not live without them. But far too many of us don’t take our “problems” to the ultimate physician, The Savior.
If you follow the brethren, no matter how “uninformed” many of your bloggers may feel they are you will be blessed. You will be guided as you make and keep covenants, read and ponder the scriptures, and ultimately enjoy communication from on High…
This part, my friend Lisa, is simple.
SC
Comment by Zdefender — January 23, 2009 @ 1:36 am
#86- Well maybe you wouldn’t have believed them, but I loved my Sunday School teacher and I would have gone to her for anything (and I was rebel teenager). I knew she was genuine though and not fake. Teens see right through the fake stuff so yeah if you felt the offer was “rote recitation” of course you wouldn’t want to go to that person.
Comment by Shannon — January 23, 2009 @ 2:25 am
Ola senor #89, I appreciate your thoughts. However, I must still maintain that you are oversimplifying the issue.
God made us to be in relationship with one another, and more particularly to be in pair bonds of love, caring and intimacy. The fact that a minority of us experience that bond of love, caring and intimacy with people of our own gender rather than the opposite gender does not make us any less designed for such a bond.
People are so blithe and ready to commend gays to lives of celibacy and solitude (and no, a rich social life and lots of church activities does not change the fact that the person who takes this advice will be going home alone at night, crawling into a cold, narrow bed, waking up alone in that bed, and growing old and frail with no loving, lifelong companion and surrounded by no children and grandchildren).
This is not the same AT ALL as denying one’s impulse to cheat on a test, to kick a dog in anger, or even to engage in polygamy or promiscuity. Not even in the same ballpark.
Yeah, a man might want to have sex with a woman who is not his wife, but when he is counseled to refrain from such activity, he is not denied all hope of a basic, primary love relationship of mutual support, commitment and sexual bonding.
So, I understand that you believe that gay people should suppress their sexualuality and dedicate themselves to a lifetime of celibacy. Yes. I get that. But I do believe that if you were to spend some time imagining yourself in their shoes, while you might still dispense the same advice, you would not do so nearly as blithely and carelessly, and you’d stop comparing it to promiscuity, lust, anger and other, very non-comparable issues.
This is exactly the sort of advice which causes despair and self-hatred in gay teens and brings about those deplorable suicide statistics to which djinn referred earlier.
Whatever you do, ANY of you, with regards to a young gay person, I beg you, plead with you, to please put yourself in their position for at least a few minutes and consider what YOUR life would be like, would have been like, if you had been given the counsel you are offering them. Be honest. Picture yourself alone, unloved, solitary (as a mom of twins, sometimes solitary sounds good — but really NOT a lifetime’s worth).
Then consider whether those who have taught you to give this advice might, just might, have been mistaken in this area, and ask yourself whether it is truly right to push a young man or woman a step closer to despair.
And then if you still feel like it, go right ahead, I guess.
Comment by Lorian — January 23, 2009 @ 3:03 am
kristine N #96 - What a beautiful post. No, I’m not your brother.
But I’m very grateful for your obvious acceptance and love of him for the person he is, rather than the person you originally wanted him to be.
I just hope and pray that this kind of love and acceptance is contagious. Bless you.
Comment by Lorian — January 23, 2009 @ 3:05 am
Bobbielolo, I applaud you for your open mind and caring thoughts and feelings for your student. I think you should follow your inner instincts and do what you personally feel inside is the right course of action.
Comment by Emily — January 23, 2009 @ 4:27 am
I haven’t read all the comments because I’m in a hurry this morning, but:
I do hope someone has given you some good advice on how to do this without losing your Sunday School teaching responsibilities.
Because you could literally save this child’s life by letting her know God made her and loves her as is. AND I’d hate for future kids to lose you in this influential role in their lives.
Remember that somewhere between 5-10% of the population is primarily same-sex oriented. This is probably not your first gay student, nor your last, if you keep teaching.
God bless you and I will pray for you to have direction about the best way to handle this.
Comment by Shannon — January 23, 2009 @ 9:12 am
“First, I would have found it extremely creepy and disturbing to discuss sex, sexual attraction, or the like with my sunday school teacher. Much less to have the teacher approach me.
Now as an adult, I don’t think I want my kids sunday school teachers discussing sexuality with them either. At least not without approaching me first. This has nothing to do with gender, or which gender one is attracted to. Certain topics just go outside the bounds.
”
This is completely true. You are an unrelated adult and the girl has parents and a bishop watching over her. You didn’t mention how you found out, but if you were told my the bishop, then telling the girl would be breaking that trust. You don’t know the damage you can do there.
Simply, unless you have been approached, it is not your business to discuss sex with this girl. Let her know that she is loved at all times, but breaking your stewardship, the trust placed in you, and the general rule that you don’t talk about sex with other people’s children, you should say nothing about her sexuality. It is invasive for her, and woudl rightly bring the anger of those who do care about her.
Also, how do you know what is being said between her and the bishop? Maybe doing such a big thing on the basis of gossip is also a bad idea.
Comment by Katie P. — January 23, 2009 @ 9:35 am
When I was Young Men’s President one of my priests came out. I researched what I could and ended up reading the two Carol Lynn Pearson books and then recommending them to him and his family. I decided I didn’t want any religious or “Christian” based response of mine to lead this young man to feel that he was rejected, ostracized, or suicidal; if any behavior on my part did, then I would have to answer to God for that sin. He is still a great kid and he still needed friends who loved him for who he is. So I am his friend, and now when I see him I hug him and ask about his life. I don’t pretend to have any answers, but especially powerful for me was the thought in one of the Pearson books – when did I decide to be a heterosexual?
Comment by TStevens — January 23, 2009 @ 10:08 am
First comment: I’m a little concerned that you, BobbieLoLo, know about this issue in the first place. Unless the young lady confided in you, it seems there has been a breach of confidence. As a sixteen-year-old gay young woman, that alone would cause me to lose faith in my bishop or parents–who should be trusted key players in this young woman’s life.
Second comment: Unless you have an established relationship with her, approaching her about such a personal thing could cause a great deal of stress. I’m guessing she’s still trying to decide what everything means, and to have people who are not close to her aware of the issue and wishing to share their beliefs and opinions will not be helpful.
Third comment: If you do have the type of relationship which will allow you to approach the young woman, I would caution you about what you say. More than anything, she will want to talk. Your views, especially if they conflict with her current ones, will not ease her mind. Expressing love is appropriate. Demonstrating acceptance is appropriate. Trying to guide or influence her belief system and ideals is inappropriate. She is of an age where she can choose for herself, and she will never thank anyone who does not allow her to do so. No doubt she has access to the internet and can explore there and ask questions should she wish to step outside the church–but you are in a position of trust within the church. It’s important to remember that you have been called to teach the gospel–nothing more. And should your comments to her seem to be in conflict with what she believes about the gospel, you will simply lose credibility in her eyes, both as a teacher and as a person.
Fourth comment: I know what I’m talking about. I have spent innumerable hours lending support and friendship to young men and women in the church—and outside of it. I’ve experienced anything I’m commenting about. The difference is, I can approach them as a gay woman, I understand personally the things they will feel. You cannot, which is why it is so important that you use caution in this instance. I suggest you ask the Lord to guide you–he knows this young woman better than anyone else. And never, never allow yourself to act without first thinking things through. Your emotional response could be more damaging than not responding at all.
Fifth comment: I’ve read the comments on this thread. I just want to respond to some who have had much to say about the future of this young woman. I am gay–not bisexual. I have not felt physically attracted to a man. But there are other types of attractions. Because I encountered a man to whom I am strongly emotionally attracted, I have been able to sustain a joyful marriage for more than 20 years. I don’t believe that’s possible for every person–gay or straight. I don’t recommend it to any gay youth or adults I speak with–that must be something they work out on their own. I do take offense when people insist that a) this is impossible unless I am bisexual, b) there is no way I can experience true joy and fulfillment in my marriage, c) I’m cheating my husband of a fullness of joy by my union with him. I’ll point out that he is fully aware of my sexuality–it’s something that he accepts and loves along with every other part of me.
My point: there is no formula that works for everyone. Please don’t plan this young woman’s future for her. It is much better to lay out the options, as appropriate and as she is able to assimilate them, and allow her to choose for herself–whatever she might ultimately decide. It is never helpful for one in her position to hear impassioned cries–regardless of whether they affirm or reject her sexuality.
Comment by Samantha — January 23, 2009 @ 10:21 am
I have been reading all of your answers and I can’t thank you all enough for the support and the suggestions you have shared with me. I found out because her best friend came to me asking for help on what to do for my student. She shared with me everything that the bishopric and leaders had been counseling this girl on.
Since the blog was posted she herself has come to me. We had a very long conversation. She shared the absolute pain and heartbreaking abandonemtn she has experienced from everyone around her. Her Family/ Friends/ Church Leaders- everyone she had ever put faith in left her. Many as were leaving reminded her that should would “Go to hell” and that her life would be ruined. She was completely alone- abandoned by the leaders and people who were supposed to love and support her.
She was in tears telling me how it meant so much that just one person didn’t condem her for who she was.
Comment by Bobbie LoLo — January 23, 2009 @ 10:34 am
I’m in tears Bobbie LoLo. Even though this is the internets with no actual contact, (or perhaps because) I’ve been so worried. I’m so glad the girl found a friend.
Comment by djinn — January 23, 2009 @ 10:43 am
I’m so glad there are people like you in the world, BobbieLoLo. You are awesome.
As for people like robert, well I know there’s a reason I’m glad they’re in the world, too, but I’m not sure what that reason is yet.
Comment by NoCoolName_Tom — January 23, 2009 @ 12:59 pm
#108 - This comment doesn’t match the tone of the OP at all. I’m not questioning it, necessarily, but I’m asking for clarification. The two just don’t match, so I’m confused.
For example, she has a friend who came to you and told you about the situation, but all of her friends have abandoned her? How did the friend know about your views, and why did that friend abandon her after talking with you?
Honestly, I’m concerned now about the extreme, 100% black-and-white presentation of the situation. I’m NOT saying I don’t believe you, so please don’t take my comment as saying that. I’m just reading literally and parsing (as I always do), and I’m getting a sense that we still don’t have anywhere close the the big picture yet.
Comment by Ray — January 23, 2009 @ 1:05 pm
Bobbie LoLo, I’m so glad that you are able to be there for this young woman. From personal experience, I know how terrified, abandoned and utterly alone she is probably feeling. Adolescent years are painful and difficult enough, without adding the confusion of finding out you are someone that most of the people in your life believe should not exist, and being told that God, too, will abandon you if you don’t change who you are at your most basic level.
The loving acceptance and continual support of one close friend quite literally saved my life during the years in which I grew from hopeless, distraught adolescence to an adult gay woman, confident in God’s love for me and purpose in my life and able to reach out and help others suffering the same pains of rejection and self-loathing from having internalized the homophobia of their upbringing.
Thank you for being a loving, caring, accepting rock of support to this young woman in the storm of this life-shaking time of self-discovery.
Comment by Lorian — January 23, 2009 @ 1:24 pm
Agreeing with Ray.
Comment by Samantha — January 23, 2009 @ 1:41 pm
Late to the party, but here’s my two cents: If the girl’s ecclesiastical leaders are already counseling her, let them do their jobs. And I’m sure plenty of people will disagree with me, but I don’t think a Sunday School teacher is in a position to advise a class member the in a manner apparently contrary to advice from ecclesiastical leaders.
Comment by Peter R. — January 23, 2009 @ 2:22 pm
Of course you should reach out to this young woman compassionately, as you should to any other young person in a difficult situation. It is what Jesus would do, isn’t it?
Comment by Anonymous — January 23, 2009 @ 2:39 pm
Oh Ray, if you’ve ever been around teenage girls, you know that they can very sincerely feel like everyone around them has completely abandoned them whether or not that is 100% literally true. The friend who told BobbieLoLo may still be a good friend, but the girl may feel abandoned because the friend didn’t know how to react at first, or because she found out the friend talked about her behind her back, or any number of things. Or, the friend may have come to BobbieLoLo looking for advise but then have been convinced by someone else that she shouldn’t hang out with “bad influences.” Whatever the literal truth of the situation, I’m glad this girl feels that there is at least one person that is trying to understand her and does not condemn her.
Comment by Markie — January 23, 2009 @ 3:14 pm
Especially not a Sunday School teacher for whom “to be gay” is a grammatically sensical statement.
Comment by O — January 23, 2009 @ 3:27 pm
Markie, I have five sisters. I have four daughters. I’ve worked in education for years.
All I’m saying is that we aren’t getting anywhere close to the full picture - and the chronology (the OP one day not knowing what to do and the amazing heart-to-heart the very next day - both in the middle of the week, and the heart-to-heart either the night of the OP or during the heart of a school day) just sets off little alarms in my head.
Honestly, I’m wondering if we are getting a greatly condensed version of something that actually happened a while ago.
Comment by Ray — January 23, 2009 @ 3:30 pm
Well, those are very different alarms then the ones you alluded to earlier. I’ve got absolutely nothing to say about that, so I’ll leave it to BobbieLoLo.
Comment by Markie — January 23, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
Ray, sometimes it takes us a while to post guest posts - sometimes several weeks. I don’t know how long this one was in the queues, but don’t give us credit for being prompt when we aren’t always.
Comment by Quimby — January 23, 2009 @ 3:46 pm
I don’t see how this persons sexual orientatin has anything at all to do with a Sunday School teacher. What goes on between the person in question and the bishop is personal and private.
Teach your class, treat everyone with equal love and understanding and then mind your own business.
Comment by Claudia — January 23, 2009 @ 3:59 pm
Lorian
I think you might be equally guilty of oversimplification. Companionship, while important, is not the most imoprtant thing in this life. As this is a religious forum, I have no hesitation in proclaiming that partaking fully of the atonement, and following Christ is the most important aspect of our lives.
Companionship, love and intimacy are all very powerful and important things. But they must be placed within bounds the lord has set.
BobbieLoLo, I apologize for distracting, and wish you the best in helping this sister.
Comment by Ola Senor — January 23, 2009 @ 4:28 pm
To clarify…
The friend that came to me was coming to me thinking I was a conservative Mormon and was wanting to me to help him help this girl clear up this sin- not because he thought I was a liberal Mormon in any way shape or form. My student had people from every direction telling her that she was bad and wrong and etc… including this best friend- and I was approached to join in on the witch hunt.
Ray, it was NOT the very next day- I sent this post in a whhile back and it was only recently posted which is why in my comment I said … Since this was posted- because there was quite a bit of time between me writing and it being posted.
Lorian- Thank you for all of your supporting words and kind remarks- you are a great person and inspirational.
Comment by Bobbie LoLo — January 23, 2009 @ 4:48 pm
Ola senor, your responses seem pretty uniformly glib to me.
Claudia, what goes on between this girl and the bishop is only as private as the girl chooses to make it. If she wishes to seek help or counsel from another trusted adult, she has that right, and BLL most certainly has the right to give it, in return.
Comment by Lorian — January 23, 2009 @ 4:52 pm
And while she may be putting her Sunday School calling at risk if her advice and support differ significantly from the bishop, only BLL can decide whether that risk is worth it to her, in exchange for possibly helping to save this child’s life.
Comment by Lorian — January 23, 2009 @ 4:53 pm
TIME LINE:
Student’s “friend” came to me to help him help my student get past this -sin.
(a couple of weeks pass and I thinking what can I do to help this girl because I know she must be going through hell)
I post
(another 2 weeks pass)
I speak to my student over the weekend- we have a wonderful conversation
(This is posted that following week on the 22nd.)
Comment by Bobbie LoLo — January 23, 2009 @ 4:54 pm
Lorian- thank you again.
Comment by Bobbie LoLo — January 23, 2009 @ 4:56 pm
Thanks, Bobbie LoLo. That clears it up completely.
Comment by Ray — January 23, 2009 @ 4:56 pm
Claudia- when one is given a calling to teach and edify their students- doesn’t the issues and trials of the students then become the teacher’s “business”?
Comment by Bobbie LoLo — January 23, 2009 @ 4:56 pm
Thank YOU, Bobbie LoLo. The world would benefit from more people as loving and caring as you are.
Comment by Lorian — January 23, 2009 @ 4:57 pm
Lorian- I would LOVE to have more people like you. I wish there were more folks like you in the south- we NEED more open mindedness and more tolerance. Last I checked segragation had ended and it was 2009, but not so in my neck of the woods.
Comment by Bobbie LoLo — January 23, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
Yes, I’ve heard some of the things people have said about Obama. But that’s a whole ‘nother thread…
Comment by Lorian — January 23, 2009 @ 5:12 pm
I just want to speak to the idea of boundaries and our relationships with other people’s children. I guess I just want to say that, like so many things, this is just not a cut and dry thing. It is not correct to say, this is someone’s child you have no right to get involved, nor to say who cares what her parents want, do whatever you want.
It isn’t like teens hit the 18 and magically transform into adults, it’s a process, they slowly mature and figure out who they are and become more and more independent, where they are on that spectrum should definitely inform the way you approach a relationship with them.
While I agree that a person (such as Bobbie) shouldn’t try to undermine parental authority (and even then if the parents are seriously disfunctional/abusive, that changes things too, doesn’t it?) , the whole point of teenageriness is to become independent, and so the kids, all of them, at different times and in different ways HAVE to separate themselves from their parents, that’s the point of being a teenager and becoming an adult.
It’s far too simplistic to say, this isn’t your child, stay out of it. Be careful, be mindful, be respectful. But we are our sister’s keepers. We must help each other and love each other and be there for each other.
It sounds to me like you did exactly the right thing Bobbie Lolo.
Comment by fMhLisa — January 23, 2009 @ 5:24 pm
Thank you Lisa- your words are so very encouraging.
Sometimes when I read things like I need to stay out of it, or to mind my own business- I wonder if I am doing/ did the right thing. But then I think what if this was my brother/ sister/ child/ friend who felt so alone and scared and had no one… what would I want someone to do for them. I know EXACTLY hwat I would want them to do. I would want them to be there- to help support and reassure them. I am doing what I would want someone to do for me- the Golden Rule.
Comment by BobbieLoLo — January 23, 2009 @ 5:32 pm
I and several other friends are no longer involved in Boy Scouts due to legal and personal concerns. Even with the layers of protection provided by both Boy Scouts and the LDS Church, the risk(s) is too high. All it takes is one false accusation. It may be years, a ton of money, and a destroyed family before you are found not guilty, but people only remember the headlines.
Comment by Scott — January 23, 2009 @ 11:28 pm
Bobbie LoLo, I am so glad that you are being supportive of her and she has someone she can talk to. I know I am really late commenting here, but I think the best thing you can do is be a listening ear to her struggles. She will ultimately do what is best for her (as far as practicing, being celebate, etc), and your job as her leader and friend is to love and support her while she makes her own decisions. She has enough people telling her what to do-she doesn’t need anymore of that. The people in her life have a very distinct idea of what she should be doing.
One of the hardest things we are ever called onto to do, is to stand with someone and support them while they go through something we don’t understand. To trust that they can make their own decision and your job is not to stear them in any direction.
Comment by Tanya Sue — January 24, 2009 @ 9:19 am
124 You make a good point. Certainly the bishop is bound by confidentiality while the other party is not necessarily.
129 when one is given a calling to teach and edify their students- doesn’t the issues and trials of the students then become the teacher’s “business”?
That I suppose depends on a lot of things. If the teacher is dealing with the minor children of members of the ward I think the parents might not agree that it is, even when you did not initiate anything. It is important to build trust and be supportive in appropriate ways, I would be really careful as long as she is under 18. Technically her parents are the persons responsible until then. You are called to teach a specific course from materials provided by the church. You are not called to be a mental health consultant.
The bishop’s main responsibility is the youth. It is his stewardship. He is the one who receives inspiration in these areas. You have a different stewardship and the right to inspiration for that calling. Make sure you are acting on inspiration and be very careful not to infringe on someone elses direct responsibilities. You could get in a lot of trouble should you cross the line.
Comment by Claudia — January 24, 2009 @ 8:52 pm
As both boys and girls develop, there is a time in their lives when they are attracted to the same gender. Boys show a preference for boys and girls for girls. Think of 5th grade, and the person that you most admired was most likely the same gender.
The shift to a preference for the opposite sex occurs in adolescence for most, but not all. I worry that this poor child has not yet made the shift, and may never. Treating her as if she has “sinned” by your bishopric is an example of a really poor approach to helping her.
You cannot discuss sexual issues directly in your role. What you can do is notice her strengths and talk about strong role models in our society. I can’t think of many from our church at this time as women as leaders in Mormon society are few. Stephanie Meyers, as a writer is a current role model.
There are role models out there for her to admire and if you are to work with her and her strengths, you will help her find some.
Don’t assume that she will grow up and marry a nice young returned missionary as the “cure” for her. That is so painful for a young woman who may not feel that desire. There is a place in society for her, without those around her focusing only on her sexual preferences as a “problem”.
When working with children in the schools, we do not advocate one solution. We work to ensure that the student is not harassed by others. We work to ensure that they are included in activities. We do not state a public policy of what thoughts are correct or incorrect. We accept all students as having equal worth. I wish I could say every teacher acted that way in working with their students. Check out the latest National Association of School Psychologist’s publication and it will enlighten you on how to work with those students that you think are “gay”.
Your heart is in the right place, and you want guidelines on how to work with these students.
Comment by Jo — January 25, 2009 @ 5:41 pm
Jo, while I agree with most of your post, your opening describes same-gender orientation in rather Freudian terms, as a “fixation” at a “premature” state of development. Most psych professional organizations have pretty much moved away from this understanding of homosexuality vs. heterosexuality. Homosexuality is not a “fixation” at the “oral, anal, or genital phasse of development,” but simply a different, but still very much normal, variation of sexual attraction.
There is no need to assume that this girl will “mature” to a heterosexual orientation. While it is certainly possible that she might ultimately find herself attracted to persons of her own, the opposite, or both genders, what she needs at this point is loving accceptance of who she is, not who anyone wants her to become.
Comment by Lorian — January 25, 2009 @ 9:55 pm
Er… that would be “phase of development…” Sorry.
Comment by Lorian — January 25, 2009 @ 9:56 pm
You are reading so much more into my analysis than warranted.
The message is still the same. She is worthy of acceptance for all that she is, not just for some stereotype that we attribute to her. Honor and love her for all that she brings to this world, without focusing on her as if she is a problem. There is so much more to all of us, if we would just get over the cookie cutter image that we create. Our own cognitive flexibility is needed to open our hearts to those who differ from us. This loving, honest child. What harm has she caused us?
Comment by Jo — January 25, 2009 @ 10:23 pm
I have been struggling with the concept of labeling a person as sinful because of their orientation. It sounds as though the orientation itself is being defined as sin. It is only in that context that much of this discussion makes sense to me. My feeling is that the orientation itself is not sinful. It is what one does that is a sin. Fornication and promiscuity between heterosexuals is a sin. Would anyone suggest that it would be inappropriate to love and support someone in that situation while at the same time discouraging the sin. Would we criticize a bishop for calling it a sin? I don’t think so.
Why would we treat fornication or promiscuity between homosexuals any differently. So I guess that is the problem I am having with this whole discussion. It sounds as though a double standard, one that says it is feelings of attraction that are sinful rather acts is being adhered to. So I thank Jo for the wisdom of her comments.
Comment by Claudia — January 26, 2009 @ 10:30 am
Jo #141 - Agreed. Good post.
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 11:22 am
Claudia, I believe the official stance of the Mormon leadership at this point is that the attractions, themselves, are not sinful, but acting on them is. So it sounds like you are right in line with the leadership.
I have a question about your position, though. When you say “fornication” between homosexuals, are you referring to any and all sexual relationships between homosexual people, or would you consider a committed, monogamous relationship to be something other than “fornication?”
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 11:24 am
Here is a concern that we have touched on but not addressed as directly as we need to.
“It has been brought to my attention that one of my students is Gay. This student is being helped by the Bishopric on how to move past this “Sin”.”
Since when is it the Bishopric’s job to “out” people?
I had a discussion with a Bishop over confidentiality. He thought it meant “Anyone that he felt needed to know”. I explained confidentiality was between a Bishop and the member of the Church. When Bishops violate confidentiality, nothing happens to them, They take it upon themselves to “out” a child and target her for punishment. In my mind, that is a greater sin. She may not be able to deal with the consequences of the Bishop’s indescretion.
Comment by Jo — January 26, 2009 @ 12:32 pm
Jo, I believe the OP later explained that she was informed of the situation by a “friend” of the girl in question, who was, himself, involved in trying to coerce her to “be straight.” So, apparently it wasn’t the Bishop’s fault — at least the outing wasn’t.
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 2:21 pm
Of course, I don’t know if it was the girl, herself, who told the friend, or whether it was the Bishop, or parents or another friend…
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 2:22 pm
The only sin is silence.
Comment by playasinmar — January 26, 2009 @ 5:54 pm
I don’t know that that’s necessarily true. While silence certainly can be a sin, in the face of things which need a voice, still, there are things which are not silence which are yet sin.
I consider telling a young girl that an innate fact of her existence makes her evil in the eyes of God, and that if she ever dares to love anyone here on earth, she will be damned to hell for eternity…I consider that a sin. I consider it a sin when young people are pushed so brutally away by their families, friends and churches that they take suicide to be their only option. I consider it a sin when young people are given tacit permission b their families, churches, schools and surrounding society to harass young gay kids and make their lives so miserable that they take their own lives.
Those things are not silence. But they are, as far as I can see, sin.
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 6:54 pm
Jo does have a good point. I clearly remember having a “crush” on an older girl when I was 12. If I were 12 today, I probably would think I was gay.
Comment by interesting — January 26, 2009 @ 7:10 pm
Maybe you’re bisexual, leaning more towards the straight end. I really don’t believe that sexuality is a cut-and-dried as a lot of people try to make it. And I think that most of us, falling at our own little particular point on the great continuum, are like the blind men and the elephant and have a great deal of difficulty imagining what all the other blind men are feeling from each of their own individual perspectives.
Each of us tends to assume that our experience of our own sexuality and sexual attractions is exactly like everyone else’s, and that if we’ve never experienced a real attraction to our own gender, nobody else has, either. Or that if we experienced attraction to our own gender at some point in our lives but went on to have a happy, fulfilling opposite-gender marriage, then everyone else should be equally capable of having the same experience.
As I said in an earlier post, this girl might come to find out that she is also attracted to men at some point in her life. But at this moment, what she is experiencing is rejection and hurt because she is attracted to people of her own gender. She needs acceptance and love, not stories about how she’s not grown-up enough to know what she’s feeling, and that she’ll most likely stop feeling this way tomorrow or next week or when she grows up. If she DOES feel differently tomorrow or next week or next year, fine. I just want to make sure she lives that long. Right NOW she is attracted to members of her own gender (and likely will continue to be so, to some degree or another, for the rest of her life). Right NOW she needs to be accepted for who she is.
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 7:43 pm
I consider telling a young girl that an innate fact of her existence makes her evil in the eyes of God, and that if she ever dares to love anyone here on earth, she will be damned to hell for eternity…I consider that a sin.
I believe the language would not be posited as such, but the underlying statement is, beyond sinful, simply abusive. If this is what she is being told by her family, friends and eclesiastical leaders, she is being abused. It is emotional abuse and spiritual manipulation. Just about every comment here comes down to telling BLL to keep her mouth shut, keep her thoughts to herself and to subvert her conscience to the institution. That makes me sick. BLL, the comments on this post evidence how deeply this girl needs people like you to step forward, raise your voice and speak with clear compassion.
Comment by Chandelle — January 26, 2009 @ 8:39 pm
Chandelle,
Great post.
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 8:46 pm
I consider telling a young girl that an innate fact of her existence makes her evil in the eyes of God, and that if she ever dares to love anyone here on earth, she will be damned to hell for eternity…I consider that a sin.
I have a hard time believing that is what she is hearing from church leaders. That is certainly not church doctrine.
Comment by interesting — January 26, 2009 @ 9:05 pm
interesting, it’s true that, as I said, the language would not be stated in such a way. But the underlying message would be essentially the same - you are unacceptable to God, something is intrinsically wrong with you, and if you try to live a normal life, you’ll break the circle of our eternal family and cast yourself off from God’s presence. That is the message when one explains to a gay person that the only way to be righteous, to be acceptable to church and family, is to submit oneself to a life bereft of intimate human connection and companionship. Evil? Perhaps not. But surely utterly unacceptable. Damned to hell? No, but cast off from her family, friends and community, unless she sublimates her innate selfhood, and cast off from God, which is, essentially, hell. We’re mincing words to say that it’s not church doctrine to say she’s going to hell. In my opinion, it would be kinder to simply say that she’s going to hell.
Comment by Chandelle — January 26, 2009 @ 9:15 pm
She is brilliant and smart and she knows the Gospel believes it- you can see that in her participation and the answers she gives and just the enjoyment she has in learning.
From this part of the original post, I got the impression that she is happy going to church and doesn’t feel rejected. What exactly is the problem, other than that BLL doesn’t agree with the church’s position?
Comment by Patti — January 26, 2009 @ 10:13 pm
Nevermind my last post. I hadn’t read Bobbie LoLo’s further comments on the situation. I was just going by the original post.
Comment by Patti — January 26, 2009 @ 10:21 pm
Lorian and Chandelle have made good points here. I have worked with suicidal students, who have faced harassment in the schools, and we have tried to intervene. I have been called to the Principal’s office for requesting a student stop harassing a student. I was given permission from the victim to ask the harasser to stop. The harasser was an athlete, talented nad popular, and the student he was harassing was “artsy” and at that gawky age, when nothing seems easy. The victim put on a good show, pretending to smile and belong, as much as he could. With students, we cannot see all of the action as they are so often covert in their actions. Don’t believe the smile that hides a heart that is breaking.
We want to give them the shelter they need to sort through their feelings and their life, until they mature enough to stand up for whatever their choices may be. It is that shelter that should be loving and protective toward them. Outing them is a cruelty, on such a private matter. It is a matter of protecting their privacy, and protecting them from harassment, not trying to silence them.
Comment by Jo — January 26, 2009 @ 10:30 pm
Since it seems to cover a good deal of the same subject matter being discussed here, Lifetime is rebroadcasting on Tues at 9pm –Prayers for Bobby.
Sigourney Weaver does an awesome job.(although I still like her best as Ripley.)
Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — January 26, 2009 @ 11:17 pm
I’d like to see that. I’ve read good things about it. It sounds so heartbreaking, though. I can’t imagine, as a parent, knowing that my cold, unbending stance brought about my child’s death.
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 11:29 pm
Thanks, Jo. School harassment is one of the most damaging things imaginable for kids. Combine the harassment from peers with parents and church leaders telling you that who you are is unacceptable is more that many kids can bear. It’s good that there are caring professional people who stand for these kids both at school and at church and give them somewhere to turn. The miracle will be when the world changes and there is no more need for fear and hiding and loneliness.
Comment by Lorian — January 26, 2009 @ 11:33 pm
As Chandelle posted- alot of the comments I am getting on here tell me to keep my mouth shut and mind my own business and that I need to stay out of this.
Each of you put yourself in my shoes. Let’s say a similar opportunity arises in front of you- you stay quite- you “Mind your own business” you stay out of it. Afterall you are ONLY a SS teacher, it isn’t your place. The kid does something harsh because they were all alone- no one came to their rescue. Their hand was forced and they finally hit that breaking point. How would you EVER live with yourself knowing you could have been that one voice in a sea of prejudice. You could have been the ONE person to say- “You are beautiful and loved just as you are.” But you didn’t because it wasn’t your place. How would you sleep at night? Because in the end doing nothing is just as bad as being one of the people telling them they are a sinner and wrong.
Comment by BobbieLoLo — January 27, 2009 @ 10:02 am
Bobbie LoLo, after wading through all these comments, I’m glad to hear that you are there for this young girl. The bishopric and other authorities who are counseling this girl are human. Their authority positions do not automatically give them infallibility.
My conscience is my own. I will never surrender it to another, I will never cease using it. I feel that others are effectively requesting that you do just that by telling you to mind your place in the hierarchy. Compassion for an individual should outweigh deference to a structure/institution (especially when the existence of that institution is owed to the goal of improving and helping individuals).
Comment by barnetto — January 27, 2009 @ 10:53 am
BLL, I have been in the position of doing nothing in the face of terrible judgments and seeing the results of it. In my first Utah ward, an intense debate erupted in a SS class when an older man posited the idea that the governmental system post-Resurrection would look a lot like communism - everyone would have what they needed, everything would be equal, and it would work because Christ would be at the head of it rather than another totalitarian leader disguised as a Communist.
This was during the period preceding the 2004 election and I often observed groups of women from my ward canvassing for Bush in my neighborhood. This was a ward in which it was common to hear people testifying of the goodness of Bush and the war in F&T. I have rarely heard such viciousness as what was directed at that man during that class.
I wanted badly to approach him, to apologize for the treatment he’d received and to let him know that he wasn’t the only person who had observed this connection in the scriptures. (PLEASE don’t ignore the point of my comment here and start railing against socialism.)
Instead, I kept my mouth shut. I was young, he was older and married, I didn’t really know him, I was new in the ward and the state, and I just didn’t feel it was my place. I had a long list of excuses.
After that particular meeting, I think it’s fair to say that much of the ward turned against this man. He was married, without kids, and he was from another country. Over time, he and his wife had a widening circle of empty chairs around them in ward meetings. And still I said nothing.
Eventually I didn’t see them at church anymore, though I knew they were still in the ward. Perhaps it was something else that drove them out. But I can’t believe it was easy for his wife to sit alone week after week in RS or for that man to never speak again in SS. The sidelong whispering and studiously redirected glances must have been painful as well.
For a long time after I left that ward, I wondered what might have been different if I’d had the courage to oppose the tide of ideology in my ward and sit with that couple. I’m no longer a member of the church, so I can’t say that I care now if they stayed in the church themselves. But to observe human beings be cast out from their community, by subtle ratcheting, by gossip and judgment - that taught me so much. And when I started thinking about the treatment of LGBT’s, this is what I remembered, and what guided much of my opinion.
BLL, you have done a good thing to support this girl.
Comment by Chandelle — January 27, 2009 @ 11:09 am
Chandelle- your story has touched me. It is hard to admit when it comes to the should ofs in our lives. I can’t think of anyone on this planet who doesn’t have a moment or 10 in their past when there was a chance that wasn’t taken to make a difference. I have way too many of those and I just can’t let this one go by. I can’t let this girl suffer when I have the ability to make a difference. You are a good person and you encouragment is EXACTLY what I need. Thank you so much. There should be way more people like you and Lorian in this world.
Comment by BobbieLoLo — January 27, 2009 @ 2:54 pm
Chandelle, what a moving story. Thanks for sharing it.
Comment by Lorian — January 27, 2009 @ 3:04 pm
I just thought of something you could do. Find out more about female same sex attraction and educate your ward about it. There are alot of members out there struggling with un-wanted Same sex attractions, I have found that many members still have many misconceptions about it and don’t know how to handle it so they react in fear. “Lead My People” is a CD directed specifically at church leaders concerning members with SSA. It is a very loving and kind message that I think all our bishops and leaders need to hear.
Evergreen International is a resource org. for members and their familys that struggle with un-wanted same sex attractions.
Comment by Rebekah — January 27, 2009 @ 8:30 pm
That’s certainly one way of going about it. However, it’s important to remember that Evergreen’s stance is that gay people have no right to a loving, committed, sexually-fulfilling relationship with a person of their own gender, and must either suppress their sexuality and attempt a marriage to a person of the opposite gender, with or without sexual compatibility or else opt for a lifetime commitment to celibate isolation.
This might be acceptable to some, but when presented as an option to most gay people it makes a clear statement that who they are is unacceptable, and leaves them with few choices beyond running away or suicide.
Comment by Lorian — January 27, 2009 @ 11:06 pm
I haven’t read the other comments….I am replying to your original post…
how about editing your thoughts so that they do fit, instead of either saying things you don’t feel are ok considering your calling or saying nothing?
example… I love you just the way you are. I support you no matter what. You are God’s perfect child, like we all are. I am always here for you in any way I can be. If you ever want to talk, I will listen with love.
Comment by venus — January 28, 2009 @ 11:31 am
ok, just read some comments. I am surprised at the number of people who think you should ignore the issue - doesn’t sound like being our brother’s keeper to me.
I am glad she came to you, and that you had a good experience. I suggest you give her carolynn pearson’s book no more strangers.
she’s blessed to have you.
Comment by venus — January 28, 2009 @ 11:39 am
#144 I was referring to sex outside of marriage. I know that raises other issues. However, since we are talking about minors who have not reached the age of consent and who are better off waiting in general I don’t see any difference between heterosexual immorality and any other kind.
I believe God loves all of his children and wants to bless them as much as possible. I think it is wrong to ostracise anyone or make them feel like an outcast because of behaviors or attitudes I might not be totally comfortable with.
I remember a time when I was working in Philadelphia and one of the secretaries came in late one day. She was all upset. She had just come from her psychiatrist who told her he wasn’t going to tread her anymore because he couldn’t help her. I unwisely asked her what the problem was. She said she didn’t like men. Then she asked me what I thought about it.
Obviously I didn’t have enough information to think any thing about it so I said something to the effect of well, I don’t know if you don’t like men because you feel intimidated or are shy that is one thing, but if you don’t like men because you are not attracted to them then that is something else.
I fully expected that would somehow make her feel better and clarify things for her. Instead it sent her into a tailspin. As I have thought back on that conversation and its after math I realized she wasn’t attracted to men.She was looking for someone to hold her hand and tell her her Doc was wrong. Maybe she found what she was looking for. I think now if I were in that situation I would be more empathetic. But, I also think that it is better to say nothing than to say the wrong thing.
Comment by Claudia — January 28, 2009 @ 1:43 pm
The official stance of the church is not that homosexual tendencies are a choice that can be cured. (A non-church sponsored lecture here at BYU suggested that homosexual tendencies are more genetic than anything).
Also, from what I understand, the church does not approve of those programs/camps intended to turn people straight. Because of whatever circumstances - genetics, environment, whatever - people have all sorts of temptations that would be wrong to ACT on. That doesn’t mean that having those temptations is wrong or that it makes the person sinful.
Jesus was tempted with EVERYTHING that humankind is tempted with, so He must have dealt with homosexual temptation as well.
Hearing that you love her could save her life.
Comment by Dottie — January 29, 2009 @ 12:17 pm
The guys in the Bishopric are not trained to handle this problem. Like some many other problems. Professional help is requried.
Comment by T — March 27, 2009 @ 4:59 pm