196 Comments »

1. Wow and amen.
   I married young and briefly for all the wrong reasons. I was not preparing for the temple when I got married, I was preparing for a wedding. Years later after my marriage was over, I went back when my brother went through for the first time when preparing for a mission. What a stark difference in preparation! He was preparing for a spiritual journey. I was just thinking - “after I get married I will be practically perfect because what temptations are left once you can have sex?”
   My experiene was not singular. And now, because our church places such an extreme emphasis on marriage, as a single 33 female, I do not see much of a place for me because I do not like to be pitied and told that “everyone is a mother in Zion” or that I will have a chance to get married in the afterlife . . . last I checked I am still young and far from undateable. I wish my church could recognize that without turning singles into a special interest group on par with widows.
   Sorry for the rant, I didn’t mean to let it out that way but this is very personal to me and you stated it so eloquently. Ultimately, I agree - de-emphasize the marriage push and don’t make it so scandelous to marry outside the temple.

   Comment by soulfusion — February 27, 2009 @ 6:42 pm

2. It is very interesting to see the difference between the Mormon Church and others. My Jewish friends cannot understand why marriage and children happen so young in the LDS faith, on purpose.

   As one of many people who married young, I was very much still a child. Sometimes children grow and mature along the same paths. Unfortunately, far too often, they do not. And if you throw religion into the mix, that complicates matters even more. As you grow and mature, you realize that you have grown into something that you didnt envision as a child. But religion forces you to stay in an environment that is not conducive to your wellbeing. You are told to pretend to be something that you are not - to ignore your needs and desires - that you are bad for wanting or needing them. Everyone suffers.

   Comment by StillConfused — February 27, 2009 @ 7:00 pm

3. after I get married I will be practically perfect because what temptations are left once you can have sex?

   Soulfusion, I love you! Great thought. Try having the temptation to scream at your spouse when there is no sex. Or to embezzle funds. Or not to pay taxes. Or have sex with someone else. etc. etc. etc. And if your spouse is not there to render support, all of these can happen.

   Comment by Apogee — February 27, 2009 @ 7:02 pm

4. StillConfused, it is so hard when spiritual self worth depends on the success of a romantic relationship. Often untenable if one of them is off-kilter, like a bad gimbal in a gyro.

   Comment by Apogee — February 27, 2009 @ 7:11 pm

5. Difficult issues are never discussed in the open. I regularly have to go to evangelical websites to find information on counseling, etc.

   FWIW, there is more and more information and support in the Church for the marriage journey. See this article, and also the Provident Living website (LDS Family Services).

   Our local church leaders recently had a fifth Sunday lesson on the very topic of how marriage is hard work. My experience has been that there is awareness of the concerns you express and I hear more recognition of that in our teachings.

   I think in our *culture* we may sometimes hide from how difficult marriage is, because who really can comfortably talk about their marriage struggles…it’s too easy for people to misunderstand, misjudge, etc. It’s also often hard for us to say, “Life is hard.”

   I am not convinced the solution is to encourage later marriage and childbearing, though. I think we can teach the ideals while helping youth and young adults prepare for the challenges and realities of life. And we can find ways to make talking about the hardness of life not so hard in our culture. That requires us to be willing to risk, imo. But changing the principles or ideals? I don’t think that would be good.

   I think of Elder Holland who says:

   “It is precisely because many don’t have, or perhaps have never even seen, that ideal [about marriage and family] and because some cultural forces steadily move us away from that ideal, that we speak about what our Father in Heaven wishes for us in His eternal plan for His children.

   “Individual adaptations have to be made as marital status and family circumstances differ. But all of us can agree on the pattern as it comes from God, and we can strive for its realization the best way we can.”

   I think it’s important to learn how to teach and accept the ideal while recognizing the reasons for the ideals, and helping people also be real about life and the challenges it will bring…including marriages that are hard, sometimes facing life alone, etc.

   Comment by m&m — February 27, 2009 @ 7:12 pm

6. Amen. I did not marry too young, but I was not ready to go through the temple when I did. I mean, I was worthy, just not ready and I hated it because of that fact. But dealing with my own private feelings about the temple was much, much, much easier than it would have been for me to deal with disappointment and secret embarrassment of my parents, family, and ward members if I had had the courage to say, “No, I am not ready for this temple experience, so I will do a civil ceremony for now.” I certainly don’t regret getting married in the temple, but sometimes I wonder if I couldn’t have been more comfortable with myself without all the cultural pressure being LDS puts on us.

   Just to put this out there: my sister-in-law’s ward is doing the girls camp theme “Campalot” this year and centering activities around princess-type themes. I have my own opinions on this, some for, some against, but I was wondering what you guys think about it?

   Comment by Misty — February 27, 2009 @ 7:18 pm

7. I was wondering what you guys think about it?

   #6 - with only that information, nothing, honestly.

   Comment by Ray — February 27, 2009 @ 7:22 pm

8. m&m:

   Yes, there is more of an effort, but many things are still taboo. Might I offer a gradation thought.

   Couple 1 refuses to admit there is any problem in their dysfunctional marriage, and believes the same of others.

   Couple 2 is self-aware, and looks for tools to fix the marriage.

   The church has tools to help 2–books, LDSSS, etc. Once they pull the ripcord, the chute is there.

   As for 1, there is often no one to say, “You are in the air, at terminal velocity. There is your ripcord.” I mean, it doesn’t feel like your moving, and the wind soon becomes natural background noise.

   If you have a pulpit pounder that can break stupors, you are blessed. I have seen that once in one ward since 1988.

   Comment by Apogee — February 27, 2009 @ 7:23 pm

9. This was not my experience. I didn’t see a Cinderella fairytale with the temple.
   My sister, who has not been to church for 25 years, recently was discussing with her non-mormon friend how she could picture herself married, but she didn’t picture the wedding. Her friend commented that all of her friends focused on the wedding, but not enough on the marriage afterwards.
   So, I think that what you are describing for young women, isn’t really an LDS only type of thing where girls perhaps imagine the wedding and don’t know how to deal with the marriage part.
   My husband and I discussed our marriage a lot before we got married, or even engaged. My parents always taught me that it was work,and gave me lots of good advice during the years they raised me.
   I think many parents fail, both LDS and out of the church, to teach their children how to have a relationship or a marriage.
   I can’t really know about couples on the verge of divorce, or destined for divorce. All I can say is that in my happy marriage there have been times that I have wondered why I am stuck with a husband with his problems and faults that are surely more than a wife should have to put up with. Yet, here we are happily married after 16 years.
   I do not believe that marrying late will avoid the struggles that being married can bring. I blame the overall American culture for divorce and marital problems more than I blame LDS culture.
   My 5 year old is giving a talk on Sunday about families. Its about treating our families kindly and making it a happy home. I think teaching children to not fight with their brothers and sisters and to be kind to their family members is helpful. There are so many messages like that, and not about falling in love and living happily ever after-the end. Relief Society lessons are all about struggling with difficult life issues, including marriage and children. I guess I live in a good ward where we discuss at least some (I know not all) of lifes difficulties.

   Comment by jks — February 27, 2009 @ 7:34 pm

10. Beautify Articulated.

    I would add that the notion of love at first sight is part of the problem. Boys and girls confuse a biological hormonal mating response with the stable lasting love, loyalty and devotion that comes after long dating and talking through things. (I’m biased though I knew my husband 12 years before we got hitch - dated 3 and we met in college).

    I’m hopeful that with Pres. Monson’s recent emphasis on education that young women will start looking towards this instead of post high school MRS degrees. And I think YM should expect more from their girls than blind obedience and a clean house. If nothing else the more educated you are the better able to help your kids with homework you’ll be.

    Comment by Robin — February 27, 2009 @ 7:48 pm

11. As an aside, my daughter is getting married. It will be a temple wedding. That is very important to her. She and I had a very frank discussion about it. I let her know that I could be there for her if she really wanted, but that would be the only reason that I would be there. She knows how I feel about it. Together we decided that I did not need to be there. I was concerned what her fiance’s family would think (they are a gossipy type) but my daughter rightly said it was none of their business. I am confident that she is making this choice because this is what she wants and not out of force or pressure. So I support her in this endeavor. And when she comes out of the temple, my family and I will be there.

    Comment by StillConfused — February 27, 2009 @ 7:54 pm

12. As for 1, there is often no one to say, “You are in the air, at terminal velocity. There is your ripcord.” I mean, it doesn’t feel like your moving, and the wind soon becomes natural background noise.

    Yeah, I can see what you are saying. But honestly, would a pulpit pounder really pull a couple like #1 that out of stupor? I doubt it, to be honest. Sometimes only getting to rock bottom will do that, imo. Life has a way of jolting us out of our stupors if we will let it.

    I would never want someone to get to that point, but honestly, I tend to think that life is going to be hard for all of us at one point or another, and it’s all too easy to blame the Church for that, instead of realizing that LIFE is just hard, and that is part of the plan.

    FWIW, we married later, and I will tell you that getting married later, being two independent individuals, has its own set of challenges. I have not infrequently envied those who ‘grew up’ together in their marriages. (And clearly, getting married young is not easy, either.)

    So isn’t it possible that some of what we do is pine for what we *think* might have made our lives easier (whether it be wishing we had chosen a different path or wishing the church had done something different to prevent our choices or wishing we had grown up in a different home or whatever)? Isn’t that sort of thinking potentially a fairy tell of a different sort?

    Comment by m&m — February 27, 2009 @ 7:56 pm

13. Together we decided that I did not need to be there. I was concerned what her fiance’s family would think (they are a gossipy type)

    Gah!!

    . . . .

    Gah!!

    I’m with you.

    Comment by Apogee — February 27, 2009 @ 7:57 pm

14. So isn’t it possible that some of what we do is pine for what we *think* might have made our lives easier?

    Yup. The grass really is greener.

    I’m not trying to diminish at all the difficulty for people who have a fairy tale image of marriage, but it’s not a church or temple problem; it’s a biology and society problem. Fact is, the divorce rate for temple marriages is the lowest in the civilized world - and it’s not because everyone is trapped in a loveless, joyless, sexless, eating-disorder-inducing, mediocre marriages.

    The more mature two people both are when they get married, and the more dedicated they are to each other and the concept of marriage, and the more they are able to communicate, the more likely they are to have a successful marriage. It really isn’t much more complicated than that.

    Again, I agree with the general point of the danger of false expectations, and I agree that too many members do see the temple as the end rather than the beginning - but that’s absolutely and obviously not what the Church teaches. If that’s not what the Church teaches, then they must get it from their society - and that can include parents, friends, local church leaders, TV, movies, advertisements, etc. It’s important to make that distinction, imo.

    Comment by Ray — February 27, 2009 @ 8:15 pm

15. “everyone is a mother in Zion” or “that I will have a chance to get married in the afterlife”

    As a single person, I get so tired of hearing that. I just stopped going to church, once I realized I was the only single person in the ward, besides the widows.

    Comment by Liz — February 27, 2009 @ 8:17 pm

16. I agree with jks. This was not my experience at all. I am 27 (just to give you a time perspective) and I felt like there was a huge emphasis in my youth leaders about how getting married in the temple is not the end and the answer to every problem in life. Ideally, it’s really the parents’ job to teach children about marriage, both through example and talking to them. While as a youth I had great leaders and really looked up to some of them, it was really not their job to teach me about marriage etc. When I went through the temple (before going on a mission) I was very aware of what a big deal that was and the importance of the covenants I was making…no conflation of spiritual and sexual there…

    Comment by Amanda — February 27, 2009 @ 8:26 pm

17. I was not originally married in the temple because dh was not a member. Also, after a messy divorce from the first husband, the fairy tale was debunked. Dh was also divorced, so, our eyes were wide open- we had already been married in a civil 4 years earlier, so toss out the romantic notions as well. Still, we were not immune to hope, which is a also a potent spiritual adjunct.

    So, when we were sealed, the first-time-we’re-going-to-have-sex issue was already dispensed with and since neither of us is enamored with the endowment ceremony (for us, it’s like doing faith push-ups to get through it), our sealing was stripped of a lot of the romance and anticipation I imagine would be present with a very young, tired-of-abstinence couple. The whole day could feasibly have been foreplay for such a couple and most likely would have heightened any of the attending spiritual devotion. Romantic love and passion are heady in and of themselves, so, I think you are right that the added religious promises and implications of a temple ceremony provide a hefty kick.

    I’m not sure that marriages between older couples are any more assured than those of younger. There’s something to be said for struggling together in the early days. I think bringing children into the picture too soon can put undue stress on a young marriage- particularly if they are still finishing their education. Like you, I would like to see a lot more emphasis on how much work it is to maintain a healthy marriage. I don’t like the assumption that any two people living the Gospel will make a happy life together…that’s a set-up if I ever heard one. Anyone who is married for any significant amount of time knows how hard it is to merge two lives harmoniously while facing all the challenges that life has to offer at the same time.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 27, 2009 @ 8:40 pm

18. Again, I agree with the general point of the danger of false expectations, and I agree that too many members do see the temple as the end rather than the beginning - but that’s absolutely and obviously not what the Church teaches.

    Yup. Thanks.

    As a single person, I get so tired of hearing that. I just stopped going to church, once I realized I was the only single person in the ward, besides the widows.

    I’m sorry to hear you stopped going. I hope you will reconsider. It doesn’t matter your marital status; we each have talents and abilities and perspective that can help others and build the kingdom.

    And our leaders *do* say more than just those two things. I know sometimes it may not feel like it, but they do.

    Comment by m&m — February 27, 2009 @ 8:55 pm

19. BTW, I should add that my husband and I have been married over 11 years, and are still going strong! We have found that challenges don’t equal failure, and that is some of what I’m trying to say. In fact, the challenges we have faced have brought us closer, made us stronger as individuals and as a couple.

    I think the less we *think* life would be better, easier, etc. if our circumstances were different, the more able we are to face our challenges head-on, and actually figure out (with God’s help, of course) what needs to be done to face those challenges.

    Comment by m&m — February 27, 2009 @ 8:58 pm

20. I agree that marriages are hard whether started early or later. I live in an area that is not very LDS concentrated and when I hear what some of the women describe for their weddings (lots of money, church rentals, etc.) it makes me so glad that I had a temple marriage with a nice sensible reception in my Mom’s backyard. So many people, LDS or not, plan for the wedding and not the marriage. When I was in a YW presidency not too long ago, I was not in support of an activity they did with the girls to “Plan Your Wedding” complete with picking out a dress from a Bride book, colors, etc.

    In my own home, I remind my daughter of the “plan” which to us is college, maybe a mission and then marriage. For my son, it is about the same. I was fortunate to meet my husband the last year of grad school, which helped a great deal. It was so nice to start a marriage without school stress to get in the way. I highly recommend it.

    I also think that the Cinderella Temple Marriage thing is more of a cultural issue and not necessarily supported by leaders, and in this case I am talking about Men and Women leaders in the church (SLC). For me, growing up, it was more about being chaste and being ready for a temple marriage, not necessarily all the hoopla and fantasy part.

    Comment by Katie K — February 27, 2009 @ 9:05 pm

21. As far as statistics go, temple marriages are enormously successful. Bruce Chadwick at BYU has shown temple divorces around 15-20% overall with that number dropping to less than 10% if the marriage goes more than 5 years. So whether there may be false expectations, statistically the temple is a great place to marry if you want to stay together.

    Comment by Michelle — February 27, 2009 @ 9:09 pm

22. What is an “incompatibility”?

    Comment by O — February 27, 2009 @ 9:12 pm

23. in·com·pat·i·bil·i·ty (nkm-pt-bl-t)
    n. pl. in·com·pat·i·bil·i·ties
    1. The state or quality of being incompatible.
    2. incompatibilities Mutually exclusive or antagonistic qualities or things.

    Comment by Apogee — February 27, 2009 @ 9:25 pm

24. As far as statistics go, temple marriages are enormously successful. Bruce Chadwick at BYU has shown temple divorces around 15-20% overall with that number dropping to less than 10% if the marriage goes more than 5 years.

    Are these “temple” divorces or civil divorces of those who have been sealed?

    Another interesting question is whether there is sufficient pressure to gut it out for kids or appearances or plain desperation that the numbers are lower than they would otherwise be. In other words, is there a correlation between lower divorce rates in the church and lower net misery?

    Comment by Apogee — February 27, 2009 @ 9:31 pm

25. hmmm…i thought i heard that atheists had the lowest divorces rates.

    and if i recall, lds marriages fall in somewhere in the middle of religious groups that experience divorce.

    I can’t cite it though–i probably heard it on the radio somewhere, so i’m open to correction.

    …

    Comment by mfranti — February 27, 2009 @ 9:35 pm

26. To be honest, when I read this post, I felt like I recognized so many of the OP’s feelings the actually points brought up seemed irrelevant.

    I married at 23. I am one of those who feels that his marriage was practically pre-arranged by God Himself, and feel that I had a great experience being married in the temple. It was spiritual, the fact that I was basting in my own hormones notwithstanding.

    A dozen years and several children later, I found myself yelling with her face-to-face and then returning her slap. My younger self could never have imagined getting to that point. It was clear that we had nothing in common but the church and our kids, and I truly found myself wondering if I wanted to continue. No sex for a year. I think we both decided to be martyrs for our kids. Had God really sanctioned this farce?

    But guess what? Things got better. Counseling wasn’t an option — we’re both too proud and/or too private, but we both decided to stop being so selfish. She tried marriage improvement counsel she received at Enrichment night. I refused to be grumpy or say a negative thing when I got home from work. We went on a couple double dates with friends and starting remembering why we were attracted to each other in the first place. We agreed not to sleep in separate beds. Period.

    Writing now a few years later, I’d say my marriage is pretty good. My heart literally gladdens at the site of her. Many of the frustrations and irritations are still there, but they’re just not as important. I still think my wife was selected by God — another might have left me.

    Marriage is HARD. I feel for you, Apogee. I remember how truly AWFUL that was. And swimming in hormones makes you angry. Hang in there. I truly don’t think that if my marriage covenant had been made to my wife instead to God that I would still be married. Thank God for that temple.

    Comment by Martin — February 27, 2009 @ 9:37 pm

27. From OP, “In Cinderella, the impoverished waif aspires to be a princess. The castle, and the ball at the castle, are the keys to new status and life happily ever after. As a father of five daughters (call me Tevye), I see the influence of these fairy tale aspirations and the perceived need to find Prince Charming.”

    I tend to agree with you. I am from an older generation than many of you. Went to BYU 1972, married in Jan, 1973 - got my MRS degree, which was the norm expectation then. I found my “Prince Charmimg”.Sealed in the temple 1 1/2 years later. I truly thought being sealed in the temple was the be all/end all.
    After 29 years tho’ with sexual and emotional abuse from a “good” priesthood holder, I divorced. My “fairy tale” ended. I much prefer the reality-based life I now live with a NM DH.

    Fast forward to my daughters, four of them grown. Oldest - temple marraige - they were both so horny it was almost embarassing. Ten years later - divorce becasue of porn use by ret. missionary DH. 2nd daughter - temple marriage - both horny, still married,left church. 3rd daughter - married young, in temple, to RM, divorced less than tow years later - porn again. 4th daughter - no temple marriage, yet to LDS man. Drugs, porn, etc. He committed suicide.

    Sad stories, yet my girls are doing remarkably well. Lookiing back, I think we all bought into the Cinderella/temple marraige myth. Would my daughters have been better off dating longer, kmowing future spouses deeper, maybe the porn issues would have surfaced?

    As a mother, i truly thought, naively, that to get my kids married in the temple was all I had to do, and they AND I would live happily everafter. Not so.

    As to my sons - #1 RM, temple marriage, still strong. #2 son - “had” to get married, rough waters at the moment, but sealed in the temple. #3 son married NMand has left the church. #4 son, still single.

    I do think there is more pressure on the YW than YM to have a “fairy tale” temple wedding, even though the wedding is simple - in backyards, etc. Too princessy to me. I am much different w/ my 12 year-old daughter.

    Comment by LucySophia — February 27, 2009 @ 9:40 pm

28. Prof. Chadwick was a BYU sociology professor of mine and his statistics (sorry I don’t have a link) showed that non-temple LDS marriages fail at a slightly higher rate than normal (somewhere around 55%). However, as I posted previously, temple marriages ended in civil divorce (not just sealing cancellation or “temple divorce”) between 15-20%, with that falling to single digits after 5 years. His research was done over a period of 10 years, but these stats were from about 5 or 6 years ago, so it’s possible things are nudging upwards.

    To your point Apogee about “gutting it out” in marriage, his surveys also showed that nearly 80% of temple married couples who reported being “very unhappy” in their marriage, 5 years later reported being “happy” or “very happy,” which could indicate religious devotion associated with temple marriage equipping couple to deal with the “very unhappy” times.

    But then again, I’m not a sociologist, just a mostly-happily temple-married mom with 5 kids.

    Comment by Michelle — February 27, 2009 @ 9:48 pm

29. Wow, I didn’t see Martin’s post. His experience speaks far more than those statistics.

    Comment by Michelle — February 27, 2009 @ 9:49 pm

30. divorces around 15-20% overall with that number dropping to less than 10%

    but where is that number in comparison to other religious groups? if you ask me, 20% is too high if you consider that most orthodox lds will tell you that we have the one true religion and temple marriage is the best and god is right there with you , etc

    you get the point.

    i honestly don’t think lds marriages, in these times, have anything special to offer when it comes to staying together. and i certainly don’t think that getting married *young and “growing up” together is a good idea. especially now! it might have worked out 20-30 years ago–maybe even 10 years ago. but as we progress (i use that word lightly) as a society, we are definitely not ready to marry at 18-19 or 22.

    oh god, no. just think about how much kids expect today or feel entitled to (just because they were born). entitlement plus consumer mentality plus fairy tale endings. whoa!!! that kind of attitude in a young naive couple is a dangerous combo.

    *yes. i know. some of you have made it work but if we could get an honest survey, i doubt you are in the majority.

    and of course i know that nobody on this board has children that have any sense of entitlement (spoiled) and are perfectly humble and always make the best choices.

    Comment by mfranti — February 27, 2009 @ 9:54 pm

31. mfranti,

    Wow, it sounds like it’s been a tough kid/marriage day (or days). As a mother of 5 spoiled children who definitely don’t always make good decisions, I know that fight. I’m sure it doesn’t count for much, but I wish you and your family moments of grace and joy amidst everything else.

    Comment by Michelle — February 27, 2009 @ 10:05 pm

32. I have to admit, mfranti, I’m just trying to be open minded about the young marriages. For my own girls, I prefer they at least graduate from college and get a head start on their careers. It won’t break my heart in the least if they wait until 25- 28.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 27, 2009 @ 10:06 pm

33. It won’t break my heart in the least if they wait until 25- 28.

    i can do that too. i will break my heart if she gets married anytime in the next 8-10 years and doesn’t finish college and spend some time in spain like she’s planning. I know my kid though (iow, she’s not responsible enough) and she’s not going to be ready for marriage for a while.

    i know the pain of divorce and single parenthood and i really don’t want my dd, or anyone’s child, to experience it (though it does make one tough as nails)

    Comment by mfranti — February 27, 2009 @ 10:11 pm

34. From Prof. Chadwick:

    According to a study conducted by Bruce Chadwick, retired BYU professor of sociology, of 6,000 LDS members nationwide, those with a temple marriage have around a 15 to 20 percent chance of divorce, and those who marry in the temple and remain active have about a 5 to 10 percent chance of divorce.

    I’m going to combine Prof. Chadwick’s study with what I’ve seen from everything else I’ve read:

    Average divorce rate for active, temple-attending Mormons, about 5-10%; for atheists and secular Jews, about 15-20%; for couples who both identify as “religious” (including non-temple-attending Mormons) about 20-25%; for Mormon/non-Mormon couples, about 40%; for couple who co-habitate prior to marriage, about 50%.

    This kind of bolsters one of the points of the post and some of the comments - that it’s not the temple marriage but rather the depth of the commitment to eternal marriage that is the biggest factor in success. Temple-attending marriages are 4 x as likely to last as other religious marriages, including temple marriages where the couple stops attending. Those who marry in the temple and stop attending are exactly as likely to divorce as any other religious couples, but still twice as likely to stay together as a Mormon/non-Mormon couple.

    Comment by Ray — February 27, 2009 @ 10:24 pm

35. michelle, it’s almost always a rough kid day when you are dealing with a nearly 16 year old girl with a delinquent bio dad and relations that undermine my attempts at a normal family life. having said that, she’s a GREAT!!! kid.

    Comment by mfranti — February 27, 2009 @ 10:28 pm

36. Oh, and although I also don’t want my kids rushing into marriage (even though my own is wonderful and was seen as rushed by almost everyone), Prof. Chadwick’s study also showed that there is no significant statistical difference in divorce rates after 21. The average Mormon marriage age currently is 23 for men and 21.5 for women, while the national average is 28 for men and 27 for women.

    A summary of his research can be found at the following link:

    I thee wed: Marriage age, divorce numbers connected

    Comment by Ray — February 27, 2009 @ 10:29 pm

37. Well I don’t fit either statistic LOL! I’m 30, single, and fill so different in a heavy LDS area.

    Comment by Liz — February 27, 2009 @ 10:31 pm

38. Sorry, one more point:

    I think there are legitimate reasons to hope the average Mormon marriage age goes up a year or two (mostly with the hope that it is due to a sharp decrease in the youngest aged marriages), but, based on the actual stats, divorce rate is NOT one of them. We already are above the average age where divorce rates level off.

    Comment by Ray — February 27, 2009 @ 10:32 pm

39. but i like all of your points, ray.

    Comment by mfranti — February 27, 2009 @ 10:39 pm

40. Michelle–

    Having had long discussions on this matter with a member of my bishopric (who is also a youth counselor and a professional in the therapy community), I ran my post by him before I posted, He said I raised legitimate points, especially given the number of very screwed up marriages in my stake (in Utah).

    The anecdotes are not matching. Maybe there are too many columns of data (temple attending v. not temple attending, for example). There are a lot of temple married couples that no longer attend, just as there are that do not date. Both must have a higher chance of divorcing.

    Once again, lower divorce rates are not the sine qua non of happy marriages, just as earlier mortality is not the sine qua non of happier lives (my nod to the anorexia and overweight post).

    Comment by Apogee — February 27, 2009 @ 10:52 pm

41. Oops. I meant later mortality, not earlier.

    Comment by Apogee — February 27, 2009 @ 10:53 pm

42. Wow,… Weird… My aunt married at 15. Still Going strong. My parents, at 19 and 20… went strong for 18 years… but mom died. Me, 26 years now of…. endurance. No bliss.
    Fast forward to this generation: Divorce, a “simple option”
    Divorce is the dichotomy. “Easy” yet “Excruciating”

    I am and have been involved with the youth of the Church. From reading some of the entries above, it seems (as usual on this site) that no one really, really considers IN DETAIL what the Brethren say and have said. As I have visited young women and young men classes and quorums over the last 20 years, one thing has stuck out in my mind- Young people hear things, but they don’t listen- and this has been more true with the Young Women classes. They “plan” to be “Cinderella” to use the blog reference, and be married in the Temple. Once that goal is established, nothing else (for many of them) is listened to or reacted to.

    The fact is, is that “challenges” are discussed when lessons on marriage are presented for the most part- (except when an occasional Molly Mormon non-reality YM leader is teaching) and obviously this has to do with the kid’s maturity level.

    Advice to advise young Church members to delay marriage until education and other steps have been climbed goes against what the Prophet and Apostles teach and have taught. So there fore many bloggers here are in opposition to God’s Prophet.

    President Hinckley often used the quote about people who expect that “bliss is normal” are going to be disappointed. Obviously in cases of abuse (physical, mental, emotional), nobody would be expected to stay married. But evaluating if we are “HAPPY” all of the time and analyzing every nit picking little detail all of the time, will bring no joy to anyone.

    Live the Golden Rule. And if the GUEST BLOGGER doesn’t think that love and spirituality are not only connected but the essence- he’s up in the night. The first and second of the Lord’s great commandments both require love. I would say that coming from him, it is spiritual as well…

    If anybody cares to hear one of the Brethren discuss this:
    See Jeffrey Holland’s talks: “How do I love thee” and “Of Souls, Symbols and Sacraments”…

    Comment by Zdefender — February 27, 2009 @ 11:00 pm

43. m&m, you said:

    I am not convinced the solution is to encourage later marriage and childbearing, though. I think we can teach the ideals while helping youth and young adults prepare for the challenges and realities of life. And we can find ways to make talking about the hardness of life not so hard in our culture. That requires us to be willing to risk, imo. But changing the principles or ideals? I don’t think that would be good.

    Do you think the principle/ideal is marriage/childbearing at an early age, then? Thats what the paragraph sounded like, and I wasn’t sure if that was what you meant.

    I don’t think early marriages are a good thing, in my experience. I’m super glad I didn’t marry my first (or second) (or third) sweetheart. And although at times DH may have been frustrated that he was home from his mish for several years and still unmarried, we were both very content to marry as two independent individuals who had already learned how to manage our own checkbooks, cook our own dinners, clean our own dishes, etc. It meant that DH and I were both already “trained” and also that we had a better idea of what we were looking for “eternally”.

    I have a sis who married her high school sweetheart, and they are definitely of the “grow up in your marriage” variety, and I have just found that they have had to deal with a lot more problems than my husband and I have. Like growing up and growing apart. I also think about my mom, who married her high school sweetheart straight out of the 12th grade as well, and “woke up” one day married, with 3 kids, to a man she had little in common with, and was just like, “What have I done? Where have I gone?”

    Although I think that there are pros and cons to both scenarios, I for one will be teaching my daughters and sons the value of a good education and getting that degree before marriage.

    Comment by Katie — February 27, 2009 @ 11:49 pm

44. So there fore many bloggers here are in opposition to God’s Prophet.

    straight to hell i’m going.

    Comment by mfranti — February 28, 2009 @ 12:07 am

45. I feel like I have a slightly unique perspective on this whole issue and have really enjoyed the discussion.

    I am 22, was married at 20 and had a baby at 21. My husband and I were pregnant before we were married, so temple marriage was not an option. We were both raised in the church, both our dads were bishops, both the golden boy and girl of our home wards, etc. But both of us were very disillusioned with the church once we got to college (BYU ahem).

    I could talk FOREVER about that entire situation in light of this topic. Our families were devastated and so were we, at the time. But since being married we have really started to wonder why we cared as much as we did. Mostly I think I was embarrassed– humiliated, actually. In the eyes of my member friends I was a major sinner and in the eyes of my NM friends I was a loser throwing her life away by getting married and starting family that young.

    I wish, maybe not on a daily basis, but at least a weekly basis that I had spit in the face of all the assumptions and foregone conclusions everyone else reached about my life before I had graduated from high school. In limbo between guilty rebellion and faithful membership I made some terrible decisions and I really just wish someone had said to me in the youth program: “You don’t have to follow a formula, you know. It isn’t all as straightforward as simple as it sounds. You’re not a bad person if you don’t.”

    Marriage, for me… it’s hard at times, but I think so far we are lucky that we both just find refuge in one another in this land of stereotypical mormon-ness (Provo, Utah). We didn’t feel like being married was all that different from living together, we felt like we knew what we were getting and we had a real “wedding” and reception mostly for the sake of our families. We would have been cool signing a piece of paper and being done with it. We did a lot of things at the time not because we wanted to, but for the comfort of others. I’m glad we did, because we love our family and it made things easier for them. But I wish the stigma and expectations hadn’t existed to the degree they did in the first place. My husband and I, now that we have had space and time to establish our lifestyle and opinions without hiding from our family and church or feeling guilty are incredibly relaxed and laid back about all stereotypes and cultural expectations. We just don’t bother conforming or non-comforming.We do what is best for our family. I wish I had been that comfortable with myself sooner.

    Anyway, we just took a temple prep. class and could probably go any time we wanted to but, frankly, are hesitant, not because we don’t want to make an eternal commitment to each other but because we are not sure about making a lifetime commitment to the church.

    When I think about what I will teach my children about temple marriage… I can’t imagine any other way than being brutally honest about that and about alllll the cultural pratfalls they will come across in the church. I just don’t want my kids to grow up thinking they have to be a certain way, whether it fits for them or not, or that obedience to the defacto laws of the church will bring complete happiness. For me trying to fit that mold sent me off the deep end for awhile and now that I have reached a place where I can distinguish between my own beliefs and the cultural expectations of the church and be comfortable with the difference, I am a million times happier.

    I’m not saying we shouldn’t all strive for temple marriage. But creating the myth of the temple for the youth is just full of potential danger to me. I feel like I’m rambling now but I think there needs to be more of an emphasis for the youth in general that it is just ok to be who you are and possible to be that person and still be a faithful member of the church. You’re not automatically bound for outer darkness if you’re not married by 21 with a mission under your belt attending BYU and every linger longer the church offers. For some it just doesn’t fit and for others it makes them think if they achieve those basic milestones life is just going to be perfect and dandy from then on.

    Anyway, that’s my story and opinion in a nutshell. Trust me, I could go on… thank for the post and discussion!

    Comment by Alyssa — February 28, 2009 @ 12:09 am

46. Excellent post. I really only have one thought. My first year of Institute, the topic was Eternal Marriage. My teach said many things that affected me, but one in particular changed my life. He said, “It is possible to fall in love with someone you shouldn’t marry.”

    At 25, I realize how true that statement is — it goes without saying. But to an 18-year-old girl who had only been in love once, it was *earth-shattering* for me. I went to college that next year, fell in love and got engaged. But it was to someone I shouldn’t marry. Luckily, I didn’t. (Ironically, I married the one other person I’ve ever loved, the guy I was in love with when I heard this comment.)

    Basically, until that point, I thought that God would only “allow” me to be in love with the man I was going to marry! I’m so thankful for that teacher who stated the devastatingly obvious.

    It’s complicated, trying to teach our children and youth the nuts and bolts of the gospel without over simplifying it. When they’re young, it needs to be simple. Even as teenages, many still need to be spoonfed. Then suddenly they’re on their own at BYU and don’t realize that that it’s all not as simple and easy as they thought.

    Comment by wonder woman — February 28, 2009 @ 12:22 am

47. My husband and I were pregnant before we were married

    #45 - I hope you turned his pregnancy into a multi-million dollar talk show and book tour. *evil grin*

    Comment by Ray — February 28, 2009 @ 12:28 am

48. I was 21 yrs. old when I got married in the Baptist church…. We had no children for six and a half years, then joined the church when our oldest was five months old. We were sealed in the temple two years later and have been members ever since…. A good marriage can be achieved with hard work. It is like the saying, “I never said it would be easy, but I said it would be worth it.” A marriage is a roller coaster ride, lots of ups and downs, but if you are committed you can make it through the hard times.

    My husband and I dated for four years before we got married. We had talked things out and pretty much knew where we stood when we got married… I do have to say that I still learned things I didn’t know about him for years after we were married…That is life folks! You have to make the commitment and work your way through it.

    The one thing that I see about today’s youth is that they don’t talk things out before they get married… We have a young sister in our ward that never told her husband that she wanted to have a career and not have children. Today she cries over not fullfilling her dreams. She is a good mother and she loves her children but she still wishes she had what she wanted out of life. I asked her if she would give up her children now and go back to work….She said that she loved them and just couldn’t do that. Why wallow around in spilled milk? Go forward and make life happy with the cards that you are dealt. Who knows, maybe some day she will go back to school and have her career. I am guessing that the Lord has other plans for her….. The Point: If she and her future husband had talked things out before they got married the whole thing could have been averted….

    Interesting read!

    Comment by Lucy Stern — February 28, 2009 @ 12:28 am

49. lol, Ray. It’s in the works.

    Comment by Alyssa — February 28, 2009 @ 12:51 am

50. Do you think the principle/ideal is marriage/childbearing at an early age, then?

    I don’t see anything in prophetic counsel that suggests that somehow it’s better to deliberately wait to marry until some magical age or until certain specific goals (minus missions for the young men) are met. Even with the emphasis on education in the Church, I don’t see that trumping the importance of marriage and family. I do see them encouraging marriage and family as decisions made in faith. And I think it’s important to help our young people understand that these decisions don’t have to be mutually exclusive. Education can coexist with marriage and family goals.

    I think most importantly, we should turn them to truth (all of it!) as is taught by the prophets, and to God, who can guide them with the specifics of timing and the balance of it all. I don’t think we should try to prescribe the order and balance of things for them, or use our own lives (or others’) to outline what theirs should look like, I say teach them correct principles (while they are young, wherever possible) and let them make and own their own choices. I think we need to trust them to face their lives with faith and with God’s help. We simply can’t protect them from all the problems we have either seen or experienced. I think there is a lot of fear in our culture today about marriage and family and the future in general. I think the principles are to face these decisions with faith.

    Comment by m&m — February 28, 2009 @ 1:28 am

51. Being in love is not being spiritual, nor is being spiritual being in love.

    I very much understand what you’re saying here; it is easy to conflate spiritual feelings and love feelings. When I was a freshman at BYU, one of my best friends got engaged after only a couple of weeks of dating. When people voiced doubts about her decision she very passionately defended herself by saying that the Spirit had strongly confirmed to her that this was the right decision. A few weeks later they broke up. As a new convert I couldn’t understand what had happened…how could the Spirit have been wrong? I now think that what felt like the Spirit was simply the feeling of love.

    But…..I do feel like spirituality and being in love should absolutely be intertwined. The central pillar in my testimony is being in love. I’m crazy about my husband, and feel we have as close to a “fairy tale” marriage as it gets. It’s the kind of love where you feel like they’re the only one for you in the world. The way we met was accompanied by spiritual experiences-it was the kind of meeting that one feels couldn’t have happened without God’s hand guiding the whole thing. My husband is my greatest blessing, and so I am drawn to God in deep gratitude for giving me this gift, a gift so wonderful I don’t feel I deserve it. And in that I feel God’s grace. I sometimes have deep doubts about the church, doubts that make me want to leave it. But I stay, I stay because I know it’s true, but perhaps most of all because I cannot abandon the promise of being together forever with my husband. That hope is what keeps be going. The gospel is terribly romantic when you think about it. Our goal is to become one with someone else and rule and reign with them in the eternities. If that’s not a fairy tale ending, then I’m not sure what is.

    And so I’m all for mixing love and spirituality together. And I’m so I’m not convinced that telling young people to get married later is the solution. Rather, I think the most important thing is to get the youth steeped in the spirit, so that they learn to be able to keenly distinguish what is and what is not the spirit. Then they’ll know if God is telling them they’ve found the one, or if it’s just love. The difference is spiritual discernment, not age.

    Comment by Katie M — February 28, 2009 @ 2:16 am

52. m&m - Thanks for the clarification I guess looking at it from the opposite perspective, one could actually argue that with how single’s wards are set up, there is a “magical age” of 31 whereby you have to be married, or you are considered “on the shelf”.

    While I agree that its best not to deliberately delay marriage, I think that, as the OP seemed to suggest, its hard when you are in your late teens to distinguish between marrying in faith and hormones. Which is why I brought up the fact that I would like to stress education with my own kids. Its not that I want them to deliberately delay marriage, if they find the “right one, at the right time.” However, given the confusion of the teenage years, I would like them to see that there are other righteous goals that they need to be thinking about and working on, so they don’t get so obsessed with marriage.

    It can’t be good for girls forever to be hearing “marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage” as they head off to college, y’know? It would be good for them to hear some “education, education, education, education” in there as well. Along with some “Institute,” “prayer,” “scripture study,” etc. Just one of many things to instill.

    I hope that makes sense, its late here.

    I have sort of an interesting perspective on this, as the only Mormon in my family. Growing up, the “temple marriage” was the huge Catholic wedding, in a cathedral with your long train, given away by your father, the father/daughter dance, and all that jazz. I actually had to give up alot to be married in the temple (none of my family was in attendence, for one), and so it was very much more a spiritual and religious decision for us than a celebratory/”My Big Fat Mormon Wedding” one. I actually sobbed in the sealing room because my parents and sisters couldn’t be there. It was a very bittersweet day. My family wasn’t even in the same state, so there wasn’t really even the option of having them come to the temple grounds (they would have been highly insulted had I suggested that they fly out to Idaho and then not be able to attend the ceremony). We had a ring ceremony several weeks later, but it wasn’t the same as what I had imagined growing up.

    To add insult to injury, my sister was married a month after me, and she DID have the big Catholic wedding, with everything I had dreamed about a “wedding” being. So, I can understand what we are telling our kids when we show them, say, the San Diego or Washington DC temple and talk about their wedding day. Its an extremely mixed signal.

    I was also singular in that I had already had my endowments for about 2 years when I got married, so that also removed that aspect of the temple wedding for us. I had also already done by proxy sealings, both by myself and with my fiance. We made the decision to have the reception the evening after our wedding - again, to make the focus on the covenants we were making. I won’t say that there weren’t crazy hormones (there were), but I do think that trying to keep the focus on the spiritual and less on the celebration/wedding aspect helped alot.

    Comment by Katie — February 28, 2009 @ 2:29 am

53. #51 Katie:
    

    The difference is spiritual discernment, not age.

    I love this. Spiritual discernment does usually come with maturity, which has a tendency to come with age. But I’ve definitely known girls who got married at 19 and were, from my view at least, more ready for it then than I’d consider myself now at age 23. Not many, but some. I also don’t think marriage and education are mutually exclusive. The implications of such a view are pretty insulting to married women, IMO. You can be married and still gain an education. In fact, I’m pretty sure you can be married and still accomplish just about anything, provided you and your spouse are willing to adopt the same goals and commit to them together. I’ve even known women who have had children while they were in undergrad and finished their degrees. I have no idea how they did it, but I’ve seen it done. So yeah, there’s nothing wrong with putting it off - that’s the path I’ve taken - but I don’t see anything wrong with marrying young if you’re really prepared.

    Prepared, IMO, means you’re prepared for the temple, and you’re prepared for marriage. Two separate things for which to prepare, which happen to intertwine. If you’re not ready for both, then you’re not ready for a temple marriage. Simple as that.

    Comment by OhMissJulie — February 28, 2009 @ 3:13 am

54. As to the fairytale idea, the funny thing I noticed growing up was actually how often people talked about marriage with us in the same way they talked about death. You know, it’s going to happen sometime, but you can’t predict when, so you should get ready now just in case. And after that your life continues in some manner, but we’re not quite sure what that looks like. Some people believe that you go to a place of infinite rest and happily-ever-afters; other people see it as a place where you continue to work and work through eternity until you eventually reach perfection…

    Comment by OhMissJulie — February 28, 2009 @ 3:14 am

55. Katie, thanks for sharing more of your story. I always appreciate understanding more about the people I ‘talk’ with online.

    It can’t be good for girls forever to be hearing “marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage” as they head off to college, y’know?

    Absolutely! But that is my point, really. The Church *doesn’t* just say “marriage, marriage, marriage.” There is a balanced, complete message that includes it all — from marriage and family to education to the recognition that life is not a fairy tale. The trick, imo, is making sure we know and teach that balanced message with the Spirit so that it sticks, and so that they learn to discern their specific journey.

    one could actually argue that with how single’s wards are set up, there is a “magical age” of 31 whereby you have to be married, or you are considered “on the shelf”.

    I can see your point. But I think it’s important for us not to perpetuate concepts that really aren’t taught, ya know? I confess to not fully understanding the set-up with single’s wards, but we don’t hear anyone being dismissed from service or meaningful life (or hope for marriage, even!) after age 31. (I am always saddened when I hear people say that they don’t feel that. I wish I could somehow package what I feel about that. All I can say is that you can serve in ways others can’t, and the Lord needs and loves us all. I really feel that our leaders cherish and love and recognize those whose lives don’t fit the ideal. In a sense, we are all those people in some ways, aren’t we?)

    However, given the confusion of the teenage years, I would like them to see that there are other righteous goals that they need to be thinking about and working on, so they don’t get so obsessed with marriage.

    During the teenage years, of course I would agree with that, but that is also very consistent with the counsel to avoid serious dating before adulthood. I think the fact that hormones are so strong during those years is one reason to really stress that counsel. The more youth can keep ‘romance’ out of their lives (generally speaking) during their high school years, the more they can develop themselves spiritually during that time, and I think then, the more they can recognize the difference between spiritual feelings and romantic/sexual drives when they come of age and can consider marriage.

    And, again, I would point us all to the counsel of our leaders, because they really do address all of this - while they point us always toward the ideal of marriage and family, they repeatedly recognize and encourage us to prepare for the possibility that life will not unfold in a fairy-tale-like way. I can understand that some young people may not always process all of this, but that doesn’t mean the counsel isn’t there.

    Comment by m&m — February 28, 2009 @ 3:38 am

56. Oh, and as to marriage expectations, I think Hollywood has done us all a great disservice in this way.

    Comment by m&m — February 28, 2009 @ 3:40 am

57. I think this drive to start a family straight after marriage can be dangerous. I mean it works for some people sure and that’s great but it doesn’t work for everyone especially those who marry quite young.

    I got married when I was 19 (joined the church when I was 18 and just happened to meet a guy very quickly) but had no intention of starting a family until I finished Uni. A BA with hon’s later and no desire for a career or money for further education (which would have been the case married or not) and we decided we would start a family.

    The key is team work and friendship for me.

    Yes I was attracted to my husband and hormonally wanted a physical relationship with him but before that we formed a friendship which we cultivate still now. He is my best friend, I have told him everything about me, even the stuff that makes me cringe from before I was a member and he has done the same (though he was raised in the church so his tuff was pretty boring, no sex drugs and rock and roll there, MY side however… well lets not get into that)

    My problem with the teachings in church about marriage and family is this cookie cutter ideal that seems to pervade everything. No two marriages are the same because no two people are the same so projecting this ideal just causes people to make hasty, ill advised decisions in order to ‘fit the mould.’

    I also don’t like this idea that the goal our young women should work for is a Temple marriage, with no mention of education etc. That nauseating image you find in some manuals etc of the girl looking in a mirror and seeing herself married to some faceless returned missionary seems to point that marriage is the aim rather than a relationship/companionship.

    But that may just be me.

    Comment by Le Ginge — February 28, 2009 @ 5:40 am

58. “It is possible to fall in love with someone you shouldn’t marry.”

    This is a point I have emphasized repeatedly to my daughters and niece, as well as the YW. While I do agree that two people who are living the Gospel daily can manage to stay together (just as I can manage to be pleasant to anyone if I have to), it isn’t necessarily a recipe for a successful marriage (unless the definition is merely managing to stay married). I truly believe there should be enough time spent in dating and courtship to assess basic compatability and goals. Then, if you combine the determination to live the Gospel together with the fact that you are on the same page about the important basics in life (how many children, when to have them, who stays home to raise them, to have or not have a career, where to live, how to manage money, supporting each other’s specific goals)- you can consider the very important step of marrying this person. Love is very important, but I know from experience that it is only one of the ingredients in the mix- and the euphoria of it can serve as an impediment to realistic assessment of the core strength of the relationship.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 8:24 am

59. Also, it’s not just love that can cloud the judgment. In my case, I accept my share of the blame in my first marriage not working out because I was doing my level best to fit a square peg into a round hole - even though I was what even my ex considers a very good wife.

    My childhood friend and fiance was killed in an accident. I also happened to be pregnant with our child (wasn’t a member and didn’t doubt this man’s intentions for a second- it was a time of bliss that I hold to my heart to this day). Five weeks after his death, I miscarried. Less than a year later, I was diagnosed with cancer. To say my judgment was impaired is an understatement. Although I was not LDS at the time, I still had a strong fairy tale/happy ending undercurrent of romantacism coupled with a false belief that I’d had my full dose of disaster…I also admit that the cancer diagnosis scared me into thinking that I might miss out on marriage. In short, I did see indications of incompatibility and outlook within my new relationship. I pretty ruthlessly brushed them aside…I was in love, dammit, it’s supposed to be enough. I chose to view some inconsistencies in their best possible light. I was only 20 years old and my life was a train wreck.
    If I had taken more time to work through my grief. If I hadn’t lost one of the best people I’ve ever known and the baby that could have consoled me, if I wasn’t so determined to eradicate my Dickensonian childhood, if I hadn’t bought the fairy tale hook, line and sinker. Well. I think you can read the regrets between the lines. I don’t mind holding myself up as a cautionary tale if it saves someone else the pain of 20/20 hindsight. Especially my own daughters.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 8:42 am

60. Haven’t read the comments–please forgive any redundancy–

    I too am a father of five daughters–and I have no fear at all in my children relishing fairy tales. I believe that tales such as Cinderella are grown from representational stories having to do with Christ and His Church; God and Israel.

    The sense of fulfillment that one senses from such stories isn’t based in eroticism–so much as it is in justice and mercy. It is the tale of reconciliation between heaven and earth; of deliverance through uniting with God.

    Such applies to men as well as women–and the moral of the story for both ought to be: The meek inherit all that God hath by joining with him–and what we experience in our relations here might well reflect our relation with God if their is meekness on the part of both parties.

    That sad, I sorrow for those who must endure the difficulty of dealing with a difficult spouse. Such has not been my calling. My wife and I have come very close to living happily ever after so far. And so, even if my children were to never have known the tale of Cinderella, my sweet relation with my wife–which they see everyday of their lives–is enough to do them in according to the rationale of many who feel that such stories are harmful.

    Comment by Jack — February 28, 2009 @ 9:44 am

61. Jack- that’s really wonderful- I do love to hear about real-life everyday happy endings. I have met a few couples who truly lead a charmed and happy life and they seem to be aware of how blessed they are.
    I have a question for you, though, and it’s not to be snarky.

    What will you do if one of your daughters has a bad marriage? While it sounds like they have a great example in you and your wife’s relationship, and it is also emulation worthy- what also might that do to them if their relationships don’t hit that mark?

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 9:56 am

62. My two daughters, 16 and 12, recently recieved an invitation to thier “future wedding” from the YW presidency. To say they were livid the the proposed activity is an understatement. We did not force them to attend. My 16 year old daughter is very vocal in her resolve to attend college and have a career, which the YW pres responds to by telling her she will never get to heaven without a husband and children. WHO TELLS A TEENAGE GIRL SHE WILL NOT GET TO HEAVEN FOR CHOOSING A CAREER?!?!?!?! I am glad my daughters have more on their minds than boys and romantic love and hormones. I want them to grow and develop thier own spirituality and and thier own lives.
    I think that we should be teaching our daughters about the temple in a way the prepares them for the covenants they will someday choose to make, not equating the temple with a fairy tale ending to a whirlwind courtship. I want my daughters to be happy healthy spiritually strong women that can take care of themselves in an ever increasingly tough world. And someday I do want them to meet a nice man that they want to share thier life with. But I want them to make that decision for the right reasons, not just because they want to have sex.

    Comment by CD — February 28, 2009 @ 10:10 am

63. I grew up with fairy-tale temple wedding lessons, but growing up in a house where your return missionary, temple marriage, temple reccommend holder parents are abusing you in ever way imagiable, I knew that a temple marriage was not a magic way to happiness.
    I was married in the temple and have been married for 18 years. We have had are ups and downs and my husband has been very supportive of me confronting my issues about the abuse I suffered and how it ties into the church. A marriage is something you have to work at and each person will change as time goes on. I am definetly not the same person my husband married.

    Comment by CD — February 28, 2009 @ 10:18 am

64. All great comments. A few thoughts before I dash to the temple (seriously–irony!).

    My daughter is in ROTC. No immediate marriage plans. Now that turns heads in the church. We love it. I hope we raised her right (she is very active in the church).

    I still think the discussion of marital problems and challenges is too general churchwide. Yes, everyone says there are problems in life in elders’ quorum. When was the last time an instructor said, “Today we are going to talk about divorce, and a couple of ways to avoid it?” Like I said, that happened once in my life. Thank you so much, Brother B!

    Zdefender, I hate words that are no longer used. “Brothers” or “church leaders” is fine. “Brethren” makes me think of “cistern.” I gave up the KJV for Lent a long time ago (NIV rocks!). More to the point, if we take you at your word, my use of birth control is wrong. Spencer Kimball said it himself. You are failing to distinguish suggestions from commandments, and also crossing generational lines by invoking arcane cultural spoutings that are not a part of church doctrine. I could go on and on about blacks and women and other things the brothers have said.

    Were you a Muslim, I’d be a bit nervous about getting you too close to the C4. Take a break, sip a caffeine-free diet coke and look forward to your last meal containing meat, since winter is fast coming to a close (remember the word of wisdom).

    Speaking of Islam, any one feel like posting on the link between this topic and a martyr’s reward of 77 virgins with Allah? talk about conflating religion with sex . . .

    Comment by Apogee — February 28, 2009 @ 12:18 pm

65. What if the virgins are all in their 90’s?

    What if they are men?

    What’s so tantalizing about having sex with 77 virgins who have no idea what they are doing?

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 12:37 pm

66. Kimberly,

    Re: #61–I think that’s a good question. I, for one, had a rather difficult upbringing. Though my early years were sweet in many ways, I endured multiple divorces and abuse and–you know, all the typical stuff most people seem to experience in our post-enlightenment generation. And having gone through such heartache, I would never wish for anyone to experience such in order to know what ought to be avoided to find happiness in married life (not to imply that that’s what you’re suggesting–I only say it to make a point by contrast). I’d rather preach the ideal and hope that my daughters will have enough common sense instilled in them to know that basic values such as work and sacrifice are foundational to happy relations.

    I think, in the finale analysis, we are going to be happy or unhappy regardless of our exposure to Cinderella stories precisely because such stories are indicative of an ideal that we already seek intuitively. Such stories are a reminder of what we already know we want–though they may be salt in the wound for many–and I mourn for those who haven’t found the fulfillment they might have were in not for their mate’s jerk syndrome.

    Comment by Jack — February 28, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

67. What if the virgins are all in their 90’s?

    What if they are men

    ?

    Allah to the newly dead martyr who killed dozens with the suicide bomb: “Payback is a bitch.”

    LMAO

    Comment by Apogee — February 28, 2009 @ 1:12 pm

68. k. the last few jokes are really funny and i got a good laugh but…

    we are talking about the religious beliefs of another group. could you imagine people making similar jokes on a muslim blog about lds beleifs?

    sorry to be a buzz kill but i’m sensitive that way.

    Comment by mfranti — February 28, 2009 @ 1:55 pm

69. I think it’s 72 - we threw in 5 bonus virgins.

    As Jack said, the fairy tale is the ideal (at least, the perceived ideal)- the trouble is, the story doesn’t end with the 72 virgins or the Cinderella marrying Prince Charming.
    Think about it- nobody talks about the logistical nightmare of managing 72 women once they are delivered. We don’t hear about Cinderella and Prince Charming’s actual marriage…although, I had a recent update from an inside source at the palace…

    Cindy had a hard time adjusting- in fact, she decided to go to college- she was finding herself overwhelmed in her new role. Her experience prior to marriage was limited to domestic tasks and farming and PC was annoyed that she couldn’t hold her own among diplomatic circles. On top of her royal duties and raising 3 boisterous and spoiled children, she had deadlines on all her papers. PC had accused her more than once of putting her education before her duties. On Cindy’s part, PC could make wonderful conversation but on the practical level, he couldn’t handle a cow. He was a fantastic dancer, but when their second child (who was socially awkward and had a proclivity towards fire-starting) set the east wing on fire, PC didn’t even know how to draw a bucket of water from the well to assist in putting it out. They had a difference in opinion in how to handle their second child’s issues- it caused a number of disagreements. PC was in favor of boarding school, while Cindy thought he needed therapy. The MILs on both sides were a nightmare. The Queen was a snob- she’d told PC that the Princess Janelle from the neighboring kingdom would have been a better choice…Cindy just couldn’t get anything right. And Cindy’s name-dropping stepmother couldn’t renounce her endless strategems and social climbing- she was an embarrassment to the entire royal family. Cindy had been begging for PC to consider building their own castle several miles away from the in-laws, but PC thought it would offend his parents and after all, they did hold the purse strings. To make things worse, Cindy couldn’t drop the 20 pounds from the last pregnancy and PC had an issue with that and told her so. Nevermind that he was balding and had love-handles of his own…still, he was the prince and Cindy’s step-sister Druscilla, was always casting lures at him at every social function. Druscilla was never as ugly as the story made her out to be (she had a body that would stop traffic)- the whole kingdom knew she still loved PC and he spent quite a lot of time talking to her because she understood him when Cindy didn’t.

    I’ll let you know more when I get another update.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 1:59 pm

70. mfranti-
    Even within our own faith, I have a tendency to challenge the ridiculous or find the humor in something disturbing…it keeps me sane. I have a tendency to practice equal opportunity irreverence around dogma that is potentially damaging. But if it’s a sore point with you, I humbly apologize and I’ll stick a sock in it. I realize this is a medium in which things can come across in a tone that is unintended. Mea culpa.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 2:14 pm

71. mfranti:

    we are talking about the religious beliefs of another group. could you imagine people making similar jokes on a muslim blog about lds beleifs?

    We’re poking at a straw man, not true Islam. I think the point is that the notion of lots of virgins for martyrs is not really a part of mainstream Islam, any more than Cinderella’s castle is not really a part of LDS theology. These are cultural beliefs that bend the light of faith into a particular undesirable color. And the real question is, what active role are the imams and GAs to play in downplaying cultural and political expectations, and focusing instead on being responsible, peace-loving, realistic, faithful adults?

    Comment by Apogee — February 28, 2009 @ 2:20 pm

72. mfranti

    What Kimberly said.

    Comment by Apogee — February 28, 2009 @ 2:21 pm

73. I’ve read through most of the comments, but have probably missed some here and there, so I apologize if this point has already been raised.

    For me, I never really had a problem with thinking “temple marriage=perfect marriage.” I’ve seen a pretty wide spectrum of marriages—the worst of the worst and the best of the best (in both LDS and non-LDS spheres). My aunt recently announced she is ending her marriage (which was in the temple). Her husband is abusive. So “married in the temple” does not equal perfect. That part I totally get.

    The damaging part of the “temple/Cinderella” myth for me is the notion that if you are a righteous, church-going person that those RMs will automatically flock to you, and if they don’t…well, you’re doing something wrong. All those lessons about getting married featured women getting married at 19-20. I didn’t hear much about the process. They went to school, got married, and now they’re teaching my class. It all seemed pretty straightforward and formulaic. There was no mention of periods of singlehood or doubt over wanting to get married or any of that.

    So I went to school. I went to the singles ward. I read my scriptures and fulfilled my callings and went to the temple and all that good stuff. And now as a 24 year old I have only been on a handful of dates (very few of the already few have been with LDS men) and I’ve never had a boyfriend. For a long time, I was seriously convinced that something was wrong with me, that I will never get married because if I was marriage material surely more people would be interested in me by now. It was really only within the last 1-2 years that I finally realized…hey…I’m a good/righteous/worthwhile/fun person whether anyone asks me out or not.

    Maybe that was just my experience, but every time I hear a 19-20 year old in my ward whine “I’m old and single” I have to wonder if she’s thinking the same thing I used to think.

    Comment by Phoenix — February 28, 2009 @ 2:49 pm

74. I realize this is a medium in which things can come across in a tone that is unintended.

    that’s it!

    making fun of your own religious kookiness is fine, making fun of another in a public forum? not so much. imo.

    Comment by mfranti — February 28, 2009 @ 3:00 pm

75. #68 mfranti - I’m with you. It seems awfully hypocritical to make jokes based on distorted versions of the beliefs of another heavily stereotyped religious group, considering how much time here has been dedicated to separating ourselves from the stereotyped version of Mormonism.
    #70, 71 Kimberley and Apogee - There are ways to legitimately call attention to problems within and draw parallels to other faiths. You just made some jokes and equated a more dogmatic commenter with a suicide bomber. I found it offensive. If any of us had demonstrable knowledge of Islam and the realities of the Muslim community, then this might be an interesting avenue of discussion. But as far as I can tell, a fundamentalist Muslim is about as much like a regular Muslim as a Fundamentalist Mormon community is like a normal LDS ward. So it’s kind of a cheap shot, IMO. And considering the social climate for most Muslims these days, pretty glaringly insensitive. But now I’m derailing a very interesting thread, so I’m sorry about that. Back on topic…

    #73 Phoenix:
    

    There was no mention of periods of singlehood or doubt over wanting to get married or any of that.

    I’ve noticed this too, especially the bit about “doubt over wanting to get married” at all. I always felt like I was some kind of aberration during YW and my first couple of years at BYU because I wasn’t really sold on the idea of ever getting married at all. Now I’ve come around to the idea of getting married but I’m not sure if I want to have kids. Somehow it was always preached like these are natural and obvious desires for all righteous young women, and so if I didn’t want them then there must be something wrong with me. It caused me all kinds of problems for a while. As I’ve matured some more I’ve realized that we all have to make our own ways through life…but I really wish someone could’ve pointed that out to me sooner in a meaningful way (rather than a passing reference to things not working out this way for everybody - the horror! - though it should still be your goal).

    Comment by OhMissJulie — February 28, 2009 @ 3:24 pm

76. I’m not a mormon but I love reading this blog because I think those here have a much better grasp of the balance between religion and feminism then I see in evangelical churches.
    Anyways, a little off topic but I have to ask a questions. CD (#62) said that her daughter’s YW pres said “you will never get to heaven without a husband and kids”. I have heard that mormons believe a women can’t get into heaven without her husband, is that really true? I guess I’m rather floored by that idea! Is it in the Book of Mormon because it certainly is not in the Bible. Really how can you say men and women are equal and turn around and say but women aren’t good enough on their own to get into heaven? It just doesn’t make sense to me.

    Comment by Becky — February 28, 2009 @ 3:31 pm

77. #53 I also don’t think marriage and education are mutually exclusive. The implications of such a view are pretty insulting to married women, IMO. You can be married and still gain an education.

    I definitely think that is something that needs to be reinforced to young women. I don’t think that age is a huge factor. I got married when I was 19, which I definitely hadn’t been planning on, but the guy was right and I didn’t see the need to wait for the huge increase of maturity that would descend on me when I turned 21 or 23. Yeah, it was tough sometimes and when I see 19 year-olds getting married, it makes me nervous. But I think the thing that bothers me the most is when they use their marriage as an excuse to stop their education or put it off until the kids are grown up. I was married in the middle of my sophomore year of college, was 5 months pregnant when I graduated, then went back to school with a toddler and had my second baby 8 months before I graduated. Yeah, it was crazy tough and it never would have happened if my husband hadn’t been so supportive. But it drives me crazy how my sisters-in-law complain about how they didn’t get to finish school and had to quit because they got married. And I seriously think part of the problems is how much people emphasize to women that they have to finish their degrees before they get married, implying that once you’re hitched, your life is over. It doesn’t have to come at a cost to your kids either. There are so many options as far as education that excuses become less relevant.

    Comment by jen — February 28, 2009 @ 3:39 pm

78. Well Kimberly,just wish your version of Cindy and PC was told more often-it’s so much more interesting than happy ever after.

    I’m pretty much determined to live a transparent life and narrate the story of my marriage to my children-albeit with a certain amount of censorship.I try to do the same in my ward as I feel that transparency and non defensiveness build unity.Quite apart from the fact that I learnt young that I can’t compete.

    I find generally that the more authentic I can find it in myself to be,the better things go.This often leaves me pretty vulnerable and I’m working at growing a thicker skin.

    I don’t believe in ‘the one’ or even in’ making the right choice’.Our marriages and relationships are only as good as the decisions that we each make every day.There is no magic formula for getting it right.

    Intimacy is a tough call for each of us-it leaves us nowhere to hide.But it’s what each of us yearns for always.We have to be prepared to be the one the other needs,and that costs.

    None of us start out as grown ups,but if we’re wise,we may become one.

    I made my own marriage.

    Thanks for your integrity,I have company on the journey.Sometimes I have flattered myself into thinking that I was alone.

    Comment by wayfarer — February 28, 2009 @ 3:41 pm

79. OhMissJulie- Anyone ever tell you it’s overkill to chastise someone who has offered a sincere apology? Get over yourself.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 3:43 pm

80. Call me paranoid, but…

    I tend to believe that cultural groups which encourage women to marry at very young ages, before they have completed any advanced education, spent time on their own, seen much of the world or done many of the other personality-forming/finishing things that young people commonly do between the ages of 18-25, may be intentionally attempting to preserve in their women a more child-like naivete which may be more accepting of a male-dominated authority structure.

    Comment by Lorian — February 28, 2009 @ 3:46 pm

81. Anyways, a little off topic but I have to ask a questions. CD (#62) said that her daughter’s YW pres said “you will never get to heaven without a husband and kids”. I have heard that mormons believe a women can’t get into heaven without her husband, is that really true?

    No, that’s not true. It’s a little complicated, but we believe in different degrees of heaven and the highest one is one of eternal progression which involves having the power of creation and requires a husband and wife together. The husband can’t do it without a wife either. But you can be single and still get to heaven. Does that make sense?

    Comment by jen — February 28, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

82. YW pres said “you will never get to heaven without a husband and kids”. I have heard that mormons believe a women can’t get into heaven without her husband, is that really true?

    To get into heaven, no. To be eligible for the highest level of celestial glory, yes. That’s the simple answer.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 3:49 pm

83. And let me clarify, hopefully before someone calls me on it, that I do not mean to imply that women who married young are necessarily going to be naive, uneducated, easily dominated, or otherwise incapable of standing up for themselves.

    I’m referring to the approach and to the attempt to foster these qualities, not suggesting that individual results will not vary massively.

    Comment by Lorian — February 28, 2009 @ 3:52 pm

84. I think it’s a valid point, Lorian, and I didn’t twist what you said into an assumption that all women who marry early are so impressionable.
    Sometimes I think it’s a little rushed to avoid breaking the law of chastity. Then too, our GAs are from a different generation, where marrying at an early age was the norm. Like a lot of other things within our faith, I tend to believe the generation gap explains a lot. They are far from stupid, though, and I do believe the more recent emphasis on women getting an education is a nod to the reality of many households needing two incomes and the fact that a woman without an education is at a gross disadvantage is something happens to her husband or his ability to provide.

    I really do support a woman getting to know herself as an individual before she ties herself to all the sacrifices required in marriage. As many of us who are married understand, a lot goes by the wayside once we have all these responsibilities. I’d like my daughters to know a little bit more of the world before they marry. I want them to understand that they do not have to marry because they need a man to take care of them but that they should be marrying in the context of equal partnership and building a family if that is their desire.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 4:19 pm

85. And let me clarify, hopefully before someone calls me on it, that I do not mean to imply that women who married young are necessarily going to be naive, uneducated, easily dominated, or otherwise incapable of standing up for themselves.

    Yeah, right. I’m offended.

    I don’t like the pressure that women are under to get married quickly. I had a roommate who said she would die if she wasn’t married by the time she was 21 and she wasn’t the only who expressed that sentiment. And it is horrible that there are 25-year olds who think they are old maids. My brother is 26 and thinks he’s an old maid. It really is bizarre. But I really think the pressure comes more from other women who have sacrificed their development as individuals to their families and want to have that way of life idealized. When I was a young woman being taught, it was the moms with 6 kids who had dropped out of school who would emphasize most the importance of family. When I left home to go to school, she gave me a gift bag with an apron, a make-up kit, and binoculars (returned missionary finders). But in the same group of teachers was a woman who emphasized in her lessons how important education was and spent time with us filling out scholarship applications. Everyone wants the way they decided to live their lives to be the best way and will encourage the next generation to follow in their own footsteps so that they can feel more validated in their decisions.

    Comment by jen — February 28, 2009 @ 4:24 pm

86. Or discourage the next generation from following in their footsteps if they have too much to regret. I had a leader like that too, who had been married at 16 and never had the chance to grow up and experience life on their own. She told us to wait until we were at least 18.

    Comment by jen — February 28, 2009 @ 4:27 pm

87. #79 Kimberley - Yikes. I guess I read something wrong. I thought the point hadn’t been made, but evidently I was mistaken. Sorry.

    Comment by OhMissJulie — February 28, 2009 @ 4:29 pm

88. Apogee,
    wow. This is fabulous. I sure wish I had understood this when I was young and stupid and getting married at 20 (in the temple, of course! because that solves everything!).
    Of course, I wouldn’t have listened to you because all those seminary stories and videos filled up my mind, shutting out the common sense that didn’t return until after he left me for a younger woman.
    I hope some young, single women who read this post will give your ideas a good, hard think.

    Comment by A Paperback Writer — February 28, 2009 @ 4:32 pm

89. Becky #76:

    The short answer to your question is that Mormons don’t believe men or women can get any further than women in the afterlife without EACH OTHER, which explains much of our great emphasis on marriage and families. Men and women are co-dependent in this regard.

    Comment by Euclid — February 28, 2009 @ 4:51 pm

90. Kimberly,

    Re: #69–

    That’s a fun read. It’s the sort of thing that Stephen Sondheim was going after with “Into the Woods.”

    But with folk stories we’re dealing with–I don’t know if “archetypes” is the right word because they reach beyond what most archetypal characters represent. They indicate something about our deepest roots and call from the deepest places of our selves–our bones–the kind of fulfillment that we really ache for. And that fulfillment isn’t necessarily to be found on the micro-level of daily living. It’s macro–it’s about our ultimate reconciliation with God. And the more we learn to emulate that pattern in daily living the more we’ll get a sense of that fulfillment during the journey.

    Comment by Jack — February 28, 2009 @ 5:33 pm

91. I agree that the disillusionment exists, but I wouldn’t blame the church for it (more on that in a minute). *I* think the basic principle being taught is to be temple worthy people. Obviously this also affects marriage, but I don’t feel it is the church declared reason for living a temple worthy life. As it’s been said, some never marry, they should still live a temple worthy life and even go through the temple! The goal for me at least was always getting to the temple, not attaining the temple marriage (although that did occur).

    I think it is the responsibiltiy of the parent to give an accurate picture here. Sure if the child’s only learning comes from these over-the-top mutual activites they are going to walk away enchanted with the idea, not the act itself.

    I have a good friend who struggled with the church most of her young adult life, found someone she truly loved who had grown up in a more progressive environment than she had (and therefore shared her more open-minded ideals), got herself ready to marry in the temple, and is now 10 years later divorced. She said that although she appreciated his open-mindedness and it had helped her make some sense of the gospel based on her own opinions, that in the end it all came down to what had been pounded into her head growing up. Her parents pretty much stood behind youth leaders and all the fluff they emphasized (I witnessed for myself what her youth leaders were like). And she just couldn’t escape the pressure that enuglfed her - still - all these years later. Her only sense of liberty came from completely severing ties, with her husband and with the church and to some degree, with her family. It’s a shame - but it raises the question of how much we rely on others to teach and CONDITION our children, and how much we teach them ourselves… that may be an idea they can never get out of their head if we are not there to show them REALITY.

    Marriage is work no matter what faith you belong to, all statistics point to that. And marriage depends on the partners involved. Part of me wants to just say - take some responsibility for your own actions, kwim? Don’t blame it on anyone else, or any institution. If you weren’t ready and you got married and you felt disillusioned - well turn it around already. And take control and teach your children the same. Are we (parents) not the greatest influence? Or shouldn’t we be?

    Comment by Lei — February 28, 2009 @ 5:35 pm

92. I have been reading this blog since I was about 18 or 19 and in that time have gotten married (very young, 20) and now am trying to show people that married Mormon women can still get an education, etc. I am working on my Master’s degree right now and made it married through two years of undergrad easily (at a school with few LDS). Yes, I was a huge outlier at school but have won awards and scholarships in my field and know that I need to continue my education.

    I tend to believe that cultural groups which encourage women to marry at very young ages, before they have completed any advanced education, spent time on their own, seen much of the world or done many of the other personality-forming/finishing things that young people commonly do between the ages of 18-25, may be intentionally attempting to preserve in their women a more child-like naivete which may be more accepting of a male-dominated authority structure.

    Lorian, that is actually a fascinating thought. Although I “followed” the church’s encouragement, it sure has not had that effect on me. Since being married, I have found I need to assert myself more and stand up for myself even more to counteract people’s negative assumptions.

    I would love to start a married mormon woman student blog or something, I think people in my ward think I’m kind of a freak. The wives don’t know what to do with me.

    Comment by Merkat — February 28, 2009 @ 5:45 pm

93. After reading through the guest post and a few comments, I thought I would say that I thnk the problem comes not from our church and the way that it emphasizes marriage {I never had a fairy tale princess ideal wrapped up in the temple}. I married young- I was only 20. Had my first baby at 21. I am now 30. Yep, I am old. LOL
    I believe many of the problems we have with divoce stems from the culture that teaches us all how to ‘PRACTICE DIVORCE’ before we even get married. I am speaking about regular modern day dating relationships. How do we date? We go out with someone we are interested in. We may date someone else too… or go out with someone else another night. We go back and forth until we find out that there is something we don’t like about one of those people and then we “break up” with them and move on to the next person we’re interested in. In our society if people don’t like something, they get rid of it and get something new. Our work ethic is gone and back in the days of my grandparents, they would have worked hard together and fixed their problems. Nowadays they just get rid of the old and find someone new, just like we do when we’re dating. Same thing with marriage and divorce. That’s why I think the Church has guidelines about not dating until the age of 16 and then to only go in groups and not to pair off or single date, because all that does is prepare them for divorce in the near future! :]
    If our young people group dated and didn’t pair off or single date as they were teenagers and then went on their missions and to college and then when they felt they were ready they find someone they have a mutual attraction with and they both agree to court one another with the ultimate goal being marriage {no other outside influences or other people to date on the side} then here they would be preparing for marriage and not divorce. They are mimicking and practicing a marital type relationship when they are mature enough to handle that kind of committment {without actually being married.. kind of reminds me of like being betrothed or something like with Mary and Joseph… not married but intended for one another}. I know it sounds archaic but I am finding in my studies and in my own life experiences that our modern day ideas about marriage and dating has NOT improved divorce rates.
    My grandparents did not date anyone else but eachother. They met at the age of 14, got married when they were 16. They were married for over 50 years in the temple. They had a wonderful marriage. I don’t believe age has anything to do with this equation. I think it all has to do with maturity and loyality and what our society believes about marriage.
    And I believe completely that spirituality and love are totally entertwined. They can not be separate as the Savior commanded us to love. That is a spiritual commandment. How it could it not be? What higher spiritual love is there than to love someone so much that you want to be with them for eternity?
    Yes, hormones are involved. Of course. But that’s part of the plan too. It doesn’t have to be either or. I say we don’t need to choose and separate God from our marital choice. He should be the glue that holds that marriage together… His approval is the most important. I could not have separated my spirituality from my choice of my eternal companion. And vice versa.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 28, 2009 @ 5:57 pm

94. I’ll settle for archetypes, Jack. I’m not so sure that I want to emulate the pattern of female archetypes in fairy tales. I’m not sold on the idea that their pattern is going to reconcile me with God- simply because I don’t relate to them in their roles. But yes, I do think they play a large part in a yearning for an ideal of fairness and justice- that the intrinsically good will prevail in the end…or in the case of some of the females, the tragic and perpetual victims will be saved. It was the happily ever after (on earth) concept I bought into in my youth- perhaps you are seeing it as an allegory to paradise? I didn’t go that far with it…I think it was an escape from the toils of reality. I do understand what you’re getting at though.

    In a large proportion of fairy tales, the interesting women are wicked, while the always incredibly beautiful heroine is either a passive victim, lacking in intellect or manipulative (sometimes all three if the author is a super-misogynist). I always identified more with the males, who grab a sword and go ride somewhere and do something, fight someone. Except Prince Useless in Snow White, who just wanders the forest kissing pretty dead women…she should have chosen one of the dwarfs- they were more useful in an emergency.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 6:09 pm

95. Our work ethic is gone and back in the days of my grandparents, they would have worked hard together and fixed their problems.

    An oversimplistic view, IMO. A popular view of women who have only been in relationships with men who live basically good lives. Also a regular justification for women who decide to remain in bad relationships, because they are terrified of striking out on their own. Also an irrelevant comparison because in our grandmother’s time (at least in my generation’s grandparent’s time), the majority of women were incapable of supporting a family and didn’t have the option of leaving.

    My paternal grandmother stayed with my grandfather because she was completely dependent upon him…there was no choice with 8 children and no job that could provide for all of them. He was an alcoholic, he beat her, he philandered and fathered a child out of wedlock with a girl who worked for him at the tavern. The problems were not solved, however much she tried, she just had to live with them. He obliged her by dying at age 58, after which, she worked as a nanny and housekeeper (her only real experience) and refused three subsequent proposals- including one from a very wealthy employer. A woman who had been through less may have been tempted to buy into the fairy tale and live a life of leisure…but no, she wasn’t buying into that again.

    Stephanie, many women leave bad marriages today because they are able to. Sure, I agree there are many examples of foolish throw-away marriages followed by quick divorces. But you mustn’t put the real pain of women who need to leave for very good reasons on par with the Hollywood crowd. I wanted my marriage to succeed as much as anyone else did- perhaps more, since my first fiance died, I had two kids I didn’t want to single-parent and I hate failing at anything, especially something I’d invested so much of myself into. The divorced women I know, including myself, worked desperately to save things and proceeded to save themselves and the children when we couldn’t fix it (hint- because it takes two to fix things). I hung in for 10 years with an adulterer who was unrepentant. When I told him I was leaving, he physically threatened me (which, given my background, I would not tolerate- I’d kill him first, I know how to (Thank you U.S. Army training) and I told him so…he would have hit any other woman).

    I’ll pitch my “work ethic” against the best of ‘em.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 28, 2009 @ 6:40 pm

96. Kimberly,

    I like taking the types a step further. The females are representative of all irrespective of gender as the bride or church is representative of all. I really do believe that men–at the deepest level–resonate with Cinderella’s dilemma as much as they do with the Prince’s desire for her. And that’s coming from one who is male through and through–one who has had a healthy lust for women all his life.

    Comment by Jack — February 28, 2009 @ 6:58 pm

97. …with the understanding that such is premised upon the idea of eternal deliverance which is made possible by joining with the Bridegroom.

    Comment by Jack — February 28, 2009 @ 7:00 pm

98. Stephanie #93, I have to agree with Kimberly. One can work until one’s fingers bleed, and yet the fact remains that we cannot fix someone else. If the other person does not want to fix himself, then we really have no alternative but to stay in a bad relationship or move on.

    This is what dating is for. You date someone to find out if they have major defects of character which would make them unsuitable for marrying. If you find that they have significant issues, and show no willingness or likelihood of changing those things, then the healthiest decision you can make is to end the relationship before you make the mistake of marrying that person and bringing children into the relationship.

    Comment by Lorian — February 28, 2009 @ 8:21 pm

99. With my apology echoing (actually, adopting) Kimberly’s, I did make the parallel in the OP that combining powerful emotion with religious aspiration can have dire consequences, and I specifically mentioned Islam and politics (as a loose parallel to LDS and romantic love). Not that Christianity is exempt from this–go back a century or two or four.

    There could be a whole different post on using religion to foment political tension, or using political beliefs to channel persons into religious fervor, but that would probably be beyond the scope of this blog, and, moreover, has been handled by very qualified professionals ad nauseam for the last several years.

    Comment by Apogee — February 28, 2009 @ 8:44 pm

100. Lorian…amen…amen.

     Comment by jddaughter — February 28, 2009 @ 9:11 pm

101. I like princesses and fairy tales. Stupid as they may be, I like them.

     It’s interesting to me how perspective does shape our views. I’ll be teaching my daughter to look for the right person, to be spiritually sure of him, to know him, and to marry when she thinks the time is right. That’s what I was taught. My mom married when she was 19 (and nine kids and decades later is still very happily married). She emphasized getting an education (as our Church leaders routinely do at General Conference) because you simply didn’t know what the future holds. (So that was important to me, and although I married before I finished, I did get my degree the first year of our marriage.)

     I imagined that I would be some great career woman, and I’m not, nor am I unhappy about my life’s path after getting married at 21. I don’t feel unfulfilled or as if I’m missing out on something. I’m where I want to be.

     I did have an experience when I was a teenager with a family in our ward who forbade their daughters from getting married until they had completed their educations and served missions. The second daughter met a boy her freshman year, fell head over heels in love, and did her best to finish as much school as she could while he was gone. He came home a year early due to medical issues, but she couldn’t marry him as she hadn’t done what her parents required. He eventually moved on and married someone else, and she never married. Her older sisters eloped with a non-member. (We moved, so I don’t know what happened to the younger sisters.)

     I will admit that those experiences shaped my perspective. I decided then and there that I wouldn’t let anyone else tell me how or who I would marry, that it would be my decision where and when (with the Lord’s input).

     I will trust that I manage to teach my daughter to stay close to the Lord and how to make her own important decisions. Maybe the best thing for her will be not to marry until she’s 28. Or maybe the best thing will be to marry when she’s 20. I don’t believe in putting parameters on children on what things should/have to be accomplished before a marriage can be successful. I have too many anecdotal experiences in my own life to show that young temple marriages can be extremely happy and successful.

     Comment by Sariah — February 28, 2009 @ 9:15 pm

102. Apogee/Kimberly,

     no apology was necessary. i was just trying to make sure the joking didn’t get out of control and turn into something ugly.

     you guys are great!

     Comment by mfranti — February 28, 2009 @ 9:37 pm

103. Lorian-
     I think you make a good point in #80 and #83, and all of you who commented further on the motivations for early marriage. To further the cynicism, I have always thought it was a pretty good way to keep people in the Church- emphasize temple marriage at a young age after a short courtship to RM’s who have already shown two years of dedication. Have the babies quickly, don’t wait until the time is perfect, because “it will never be the perfect time to have kids”, and before you know it you’re 25, have been married 5 years, and maybe have 2 or 3 kids, and you might still be working on finishing your undergrad. I can’t imagine how hard it would be to leave at that point, either your Church or even just the marriage.

     Even if the intention is good- that people need to stay in the Church because it’s True- it still feels a little too perfectly set up to keep people in the fold even if they get to the point where they want to leave, because it’s almost impossible to do so.

     Comment by sophia*rising — February 28, 2009 @ 10:21 pm

104. hmm in my opinion i think that romantic love and spirituality ideally should be intertwined. i mean look at our theology: procreation is right at the center of it. that IS exaltation. you need another person to do that.

     it also appeals to my mystical side: lots of (admittedly older) religions put the relationship between men and women as the highest avenue to access God.

     i DO think these things, particularly the emphasis on the importance of the feminine in the complementarity of the sexes, have been out of vogue in our culture for so long that there are tons of cultural problems that come from making marriage so central to our theology.

     still though, wouldn’t give it up for the world. sex = celestial activity. im happy with that.

     Comment by nobodyputsbabyinacorner — February 28, 2009 @ 10:26 pm

105. Re #93: PRACTICE DIVORCE? (your caps) How about experimental childbirth? Trial electrocution? The phrase is absurd as there is no way to “practice divorce”, an event that is painfully life-altering, even in the best of circumstances.

     Divorce shatters the lives of everyone involved, especially children. I certainly didn’t plan for the end of my temple marriage, didn’t want it and was totally surprised when it happened.

     Two years ago I watched my next-door neighbors split up after only 47 years of their eternal marriage. They both told me that it should have happened 40 years before that. What a waste of two lives, not to mention the trauma that their now-adult children and grandchildren experienced.

     When I remarried 17 years ago I was aware of the risks involved. Those risks will always be there, even thirty years from now. When my daughters were married they also understood the possibilities well after experiencing it with me. No fairy tales for them.

     A successful marriage is hard work but worth every drop of sweat put into it. But sometimes it is better to cut your losses and move on.

     Comment by Numi — February 28, 2009 @ 10:39 pm

106. I haven’t read most of the posts but while reading through the first ones I was struck with a couple thoughts.

     One, I am not sure that delaying marriage is necessarily the answer or the problem solver but I do think that there should be less focus on going through the temple just because you are getting married. I think one should feel ready to go through the temple. I definitely was not ready when I went through but the proper thing to do was to be married in the temple. I even got a lot of flack from my bishop for having a little ceremony, not even vows, a week after the temple marriage — my husband’s family are non-members. I have two girls and I am going to encourage them to be ready for the temple, to understand what they are doing before they go, even if that means waiting until after they are married.

     Two, I remember when I was at BYU Utah, one of the craziest things I heard in a devotional (and there were some pretty crazy things) was the speaker announcing to the congregation that they should be out there dating and that any two worthy people would be able to have a lasting and happy temple marriage. He actually emphasized that one should not spend too much time looking for the “right person” rather they should choose to marry when a temple worthy mate had been found. ?? Now I will admit that my BYU days were some of my most conservative but even I thought this was nuts.

     There is just so many expectations in the culture for marriage and children and possessions that I almost can’t stand it anymore. I was having a discussion with a relative about the church and all of her negative perceptions associated with the church were parts of the culture, she had no real knowledge of the doctrine. This makes me crazy!!

     Comment by LT — March 1, 2009 @ 12:26 am

107. “I tend to believe that cultural groups which encourage women to marry at very young ages, before they have completed any advanced education, spent time on their own, seen much of the world or done many of the other personality-forming/finishing things that young people commonly do between the ages of 18-25, may be intentionally attempting to preserve in their women a more child-like naivete which may be more accepting of a male-dominated authority structure.”

     Lorian, i agree with you completely. (Disclaimer for those who married young, this is not to say that it works but i see the attempt)

     I also see the tendency for groups that prize female sexuality in that it is preserved to give oneself to ones husband in marriage, may fear female sexuality and acquire paternalistic power from this “protection/ use”

     Comment by anonymous — March 1, 2009 @ 12:51 am

108. #106 LT:
     

     Two, I remember when I was at BYU Utah, one of the craziest things I heard in a devotional (and there were some pretty crazy things) was the speaker announcing to the congregation that they should be out there dating and that any two worthy people would be able to have a lasting and happy temple marriage. He actually emphasized that one should not spend too much time looking for the “right person” rather they should choose to marry when a temple worthy mate had been found. ?? Now I will admit that my BYU days were some of my most conservative but even I thought this was nuts.

     I’m just hitting the end of 5 years at BYU and I have heard this or something similar many, many times. It comes from a quote I’ve heard attributed to President Kimball, though nobody’s ever shown me the original source or context, that says something like, “any good man and any good woman can have a happy and successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price.” I’ve also heard it as “any worthy man and any worthy woman”…I don’t know it for sure. Anyway, it gets trotted out a lot, and then used to justify the view that we should really just be getting married to whomever else happens to be A) a member of the opposite sex, and B) temple worthy. Never mind if you have anything else in common, that’ll all sort itself out if you’re willing to work at it. Last Sunday our high councilman actually offered to pair off the entire ward himself and march us off to the temple. He was joking…sort of.

     Fun story: when I told my Bishop I was graduating this year during a tithing settlement interview (which abruptly turned into a “Relationship Status” interview, as nearly every tithing settlement interview of my YSA life has) he got this really troubled look on his face and told me, “I don’t want you to leave BYU unmarried.” I was a little taken aback and I just said, “I don’t think you have a lot of control over that, Bishop.” I tried to show him that I’m not particularly concerned about it, but I think that just made him worry about it more. During this same interview he also randomly brought up a couple in the ward who had just gotten engaged (found out later the guy involved was the negligent home teacher who never even introduced himself to us…guess he had more important things to do) and were planning on getting married in 2 months. He went on to extol the virtues of short engagements and tell me that once you decide to get married, you should just go get married, since you don’t really need all that much time for planning. Oh, and before I went in the first counselor told me he was trying to set me up with this other guy in my ward (my other negligent home teacher, ironically enough), but I’d missed meeting him because I was late for my interview. I was like, “Ummm…shucks?”

     Anyway, the moral of the story is that BYU is a weird, weird place.

     Comment by OhMissJulie — March 1, 2009 @ 3:10 am

109. My understanding is that the President Kimball quote came from a growing cultural movement among the youth in the Church that one had to find their one and only right person to marry - the soulmate from the pre-existence that you were destined to wed. He said what he did to let people know that there can be more than one right person and that two worthy members of the Church (who are presumably Christ-like and unselfish) could make a marriage work. I am willing to freely admit that I might be totally off base, but that’s what my mom remembers and told me (and she was a YSA at the time).

     Comment by Sariah — March 1, 2009 @ 7:54 am

110. I agree about dumping the romanticism of the soul mate concept- it’s a good thing to caution members against that kind of expectation. Even if there is one out there, this person could have been born across the world and you may never run into each other. Knowing from my own life, you definitely can love more than one person- but as we talked about above, it doesn’t mean you should marry this person. There are everyday practicalites that definitely matter.
     On the other hand, it can’t be just any two people either. That’s the opposite extreme of a soul mate and just as silly- then you have no expectations at all. Given how challenging marriage is, there has to be some chemistry and you has to have enough in common to form a firm friendship to get through potentially rough and dry years. If you marry just anyone, there is the chance that every year of your married life would be rough and dry.
     I can think of any number of men who are temple worthy that I could never, ever marry. Some of them, I wouldn’t even consider dating.

     Comment by Kimberly — March 1, 2009 @ 8:41 am

111. #53 I also don’t think marriage and education are mutually exclusive. The implications of such a view are pretty insulting to married women, IMO. You can be married and still gain an education.

     I definitely think that is something that needs to be reinforced to young women

     And to young men too. From my own experience, and from what I have seen in my contemporaries (we’re all grandmas now), it’s more likely to be the expectations (and fears) of the husband that prevent a woman from furthering her education.

     Comment by CatherineWO — March 1, 2009 @ 11:19 am

112. I was doing my level best to fit a square peg into a round hole

     #59 - Kimberly, fwiw, there’s not much help available outside of surgery for that particular problem.

     Comment by Ray — March 1, 2009 @ 12:55 pm

113. #106,108, and 109-

     It’s still happening here in Texas in the single’s wards. One day they combined the 2nd and 3rd hours for a two hour long talk on how people shouldn’t “be focusing on finding the perfect person for you. All of you are good, worthy people. If you find someone who is temple worthy, and you are too, marry them. Because of your commitment to the Church, and your choice to have a temple marriage, you will be blessed. Any two worthy members can have a good marriage when it’s founded on the Gospel”.

     I agree we need to get away from the romanticism of Pre-mortal existence marriage promises, but I think it’s just as negative to tell a bunch of singles, some of whom may be reaching what their culture has told them is an unacceptable age to be single, that they should just get married to a righteous member. Also, I’ve heard over and over again the temple itself romanticized- people mention they will get “extra help” from Heavenly Father, and “extra blessings” for being married in the temple, that their marriage is more special and sacred. People who were married first civilly, and then sealed (converts, or struggling at the time of marriage members) testify that their marriage has a new peace, that they love one another more, etc. I’m sure these are all valid feelings, but when coupled with the idea that any two worthy members can have a good marriage, it sets people up for the expectation that “we’re both good members, and we’re married in the temple, so things will be good”.

     Comment by sophia*rising — March 1, 2009 @ 2:28 pm

114. See Ray, If I had you around at the time, I would have known to look for a good surgeon.

     Comment by Kimberly — March 1, 2009 @ 2:31 pm

115. When I was single, I had a lot of trouble dating members. At the single mixers, a nice young man would ask me what my major was. I would tell him, his face would get this look and suddenly he had to go somewhere else. After having this repeated often enough, I stopped bothering. When I talked to young men in my gened courses, they would say, that’s cool and continue chatting and flirting. If I had been really concerned about finding a man, I probably would have switched majors. As is, I found a nice non member who eventually converted and we got married. I got a lot of comments on being with someone for so long without being married, even though we were temple worthy at all times. But I can easily understand why women might feel like marriage and an education were not compatible.

     Comment by Tami — March 1, 2009 @ 3:06 pm

116. tami,

     well you can’t leave us hanging. what was your major?

     Comment by mfranti — March 1, 2009 @ 4:47 pm

117. Now I’m curious, Tami, what was your unattractive-to-LDS-men major?

     Comment by Beijing — March 1, 2009 @ 4:56 pm

118. Really, Tami, now I’m trying to imagine what could be so frightening to all the LDS guys. An MS in headhunting? Occult studies?

     Comment by Kimberly — March 1, 2009 @ 5:02 pm

119. 1. Life doesn’t end after marriage. Women still have minds and lives. Our life doesn’t even end after having babies. I am 38 years old so of course I am far wiser than when I married at age 21. If I were single and 38 I would also be wiser, but in a different way since I might have learned different things.

     2. While I didn’t have 38 years of experience behind me when I chose to marry, I chose a compatible person to marry, I prayed about it, and then I have worked really hard every single day to make it work. I don’t believe in a one and only soulmate, but there aren’t that many people who were compatible with me. There are times when I pat myself on the back for choosing such a good guy, and times where I think I could have chosen a random RM and it would have been easier, so I love Pres. Kimball’s quote that two people can make it work if they are willing to “pay the price”. My husband and I committed to that before we married, and we have definitely had to live up to that.

     Comment by jks — March 1, 2009 @ 5:13 pm

120. Tami, I am salivating too– what was the major? Rocket science or pre-med? (i.e. something intimidating??)

     #108 & 109, re: Kimball quote, et al. We all have our agency… which in a odd way, makes both the “more than 1 soul mate for you” and also the “just marry anybody with a temple recommend” work. If we choose to use our agency to find someone of our choice, i.e. not pre-ordained as a marriage partner, that is all well and good. If we choose to use our agency in marrying anyone with a temple recommend and then make a conscious effort to have the church be the only thing in common, therefore turning into the uber-church going family, that works for some people too.

     I am rather cynical myself, and had to use my agency in choosing someone who would let me bail mid-sacrament if a talk makes me skin crawl (all women should be mothers) or I was bored silly in Sunday School (lets read directly from the scriptures for the whole lesson because I didn’t have time to prepare). Not that I skip out a lot, but sometimes– liberation from cerebral oppression is its own salvation… and perhaps an argument that I use my agency for selfish reasons.

     I see that as being what agency is all about. There are consequences to the choices we make, but choice is still necessary in choosing a (similar likes) partner or a (uber-church) lifestyle, not to mention the choice to work through marital problems or the very unhealthy method of ignoring marital problems. One of the reasons I like the church as an organization (sometimes the only reason) is because of LDS family services- the fact that it exists is a strong statement family issues are common enough to warrant a church-based counselling service, and also in working through marriage issues with counselling rather than living with someone in falsely righteous isolation.

     Comment by spunky — March 1, 2009 @ 5:26 pm

121. Double major in biochemistry and mcb (molecular and cellular biology).

     Comment by Tami — March 1, 2009 @ 6:03 pm

122. Also, to make it worse, I always planned on doing postgrad work (which I am doing now- seven years into this silly phd).

     Comment by Tami — March 1, 2009 @ 6:07 pm

123. What is it that you think turned them off, Tami- that you had a big brain, or that you might want to keep a job instead of staying at home? It’s not just LDS guys, though. My daughters both have a hard time dating and neither of them are LDS. They are both very smart, earn excellent grades, tutor other students. Neither of them even knows how to play dumb. The younger dd came home last year and told me that one of her guy friends said that a lot of boys thought she was “hot”, but were afraid to date her because she was smarter than most of them. Of course, I told her that if she ever expected to be happy, she’d have to find a man who appreciated her intelligence and expected her to use it…but, understandably, she was alternately angry and a little discouraged.

     Comment by Kimberly — March 1, 2009 @ 6:10 pm

124. To be cynical, I think it was that the major said I took school seriously and they would not be the center of my universe. A lot of these guys had expectations of getting cookies and meals from girls before he showed interest in them. A girl who is studying for an o-chem test is not going to drop everything to go and cheer for him at a meaningless ward basketball game. For a few of the guys, I think there was a bit of competition (like the one who told me his GRE score in response).

     Comment by Tami — March 1, 2009 @ 6:27 pm

125. Double major in biochemistry and mcb (molecular and cellular biology).

     I met a girl on Friday with those majors. She was cute too and *I* was intimidated. Me and my puny Environmental Studies and Geography majors couldn’t compete with that.

     Can’t imagine a guy.

     

     Comment by mfranti — March 1, 2009 @ 6:56 pm

126. #124- I am with that- I think it is competition and intimidation and the fear that they might not be the centre of the universe for someone. Which is funny, because my husband -to a certain extent - is the centre of the universe for me, but he earned that privilege, it wasn’t something I bestowed upon him *just because*, and vice versa.

     Comment by spunky — March 1, 2009 @ 8:26 pm

127. And mfanti, Environmental Studies and Geography can be intimidating as well– I think if we continue to have biases, i.e. science is the only “smart” major, then we lose the art of civilzation. Intellect is required in every industry from education and food preperation to art and literature as well as math and science. Any application of true passion in any industry can be mind-blowing. Decorating a cake to perfection takes as much dedication to the science of food preparation as programming does in information technology. Its all about the intellectual application of your passion!

     My FAV quote:
     “Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great.” - Mark Twain

     Comment by spunky — March 1, 2009 @ 8:34 pm

128. I just got home from my SIL’s 6th baby blessing (girl). In the blessing? “Get as much education as you can” (nice) and while at college she was blessed to “meet your husband.” I…might…just…keep it together.

     Or, I might not. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME!!??!! What is my BIL, who is in the bishopric, teaching the YW and his own girls? Oh that’s right–that the MRS degree is “as much education” as you need! Go to BYU and wash RMs’s socks! I hate the attitude that college is the place to get a husband. To quote the inimitable Elizabeth Bennet, “I do not much care for your way of getting husbands.”

     Comment by Molly — March 1, 2009 @ 8:50 pm

129. For a few of the guys, I think there was a bit of competition (like the one who told me his GRE score in response).

     Too freaking funny. I originally majored in accounting which turned out to be a great girl major because I could “work from home and still be a stay at home mom.” Yeah, I could. But tax attorneys don’t make the big bucks from their living rooms. (Didn’t pan out, but I did have big dreams).

     Comment by jen — March 1, 2009 @ 10:54 pm

130. I do think that there should be less focus on going through the temple just because you are getting married.

     Amen to that. As one who thought life couldn’t start until I got married, I was lucky enough to take a different path and not get married until 27. The temple for me is a very personal place and I actually enjoy it MORE when I go without my husband. It is sad that so many women who are unmarried feel like they should only go through the first time when they are married, therefore associating it forever with only the institute OF marriage.

     I definitely agree with the OP that there is an unfortunate propagation of the fairytale ideals with marriage and the temple, but I don’t necessarily agree that it is a “Church” promoted plan but more of an “LDS-society” promoted idea. Depends on where you live, too. (For all you older singles living in Utah, I have just one bit of advice–MOVE AWAY. You are not as much of an abberation as you think, lol.) I don’t necessarily think that early marriage is promoted by the church doctrine, per se, but when your very salvation is tied to marriage (according to doctrine), I don’t see an easy way to separate the myth from the reality. Especially when pre-marital abstinance is involved.

     Anyway, let’s be honest, if you believed that you will be married to the same person for all ETERNITY and that you can’t get into the highest heaven without that person, wouldn’t you want to hold on to the fairytale too? LOL

     Personally, I finally let go of the fairytale and that’s when I met my husband. I could have married others, but fortunately something inside me knew I wasn’t ready. But I was pretty analytical for my age and had paid really good attention to the mistakes my divorced parents had made. I can’t think of a way to pass that on to someone else other than by living it–children rarely listen when parents try to pass on advice that they themselves have gained from lessons learned. Especially young men and women who think that they are in love.

     Comment by anelie — March 2, 2009 @ 1:44 am

131. There is one thing I’d like to say. Temple marriage does provide a structure for greater success in marriage, because it gives the couple an opportunity to look into eternity, to place the petty day-to-day struggles in the proper light, to be less selfish and self-absorbed.

     Whether or not that opportunity is taken, however, is completely dependent on the righteousness of both of the individuals involved. Statistics of marriage failures only show that people are less capable of handling a marriage relationship, they do not show the failure or success of a particular marriage structure.

     Comment by SilverRain — March 2, 2009 @ 9:27 am

132. #121: You’re hot. I haven’t even seen you and I can tell that you’re hot, because you’re smart and Mormon that’s mega-hot. (Says the guy married to another hot Mormon lady with chem, comp sci, and law degrees.)

     Back to topic: if I’m ever teaching a lesson about the temple and/or temple marriage, I always make it a point not to end the lesson with “And you go to the temple, amen.” I ask people about the journey afterwards, and I particularly ask people who’ve been to the temple (or married there) to discuss their temple experience in relation to the ongoing issues and challenges in their lives. Best I can do short of open criticism of our overuse of the temple as feel-good propaganda.

     Comment by Bro. Jones — March 2, 2009 @ 11:37 am

133. Merkat of #92- Let me know if you start that blog. I did my BS/MS at BYU and I am now doing a PhD in engineering elsewhere. Been married 3+ years, since the middle of my junior year. No babies, no immediate plans, and my sisters think I am crazy. (kewint (@) vt (.) edu)

     I was 19 when I married, but it was the middle of my junior year. I love him, and we are very happy, but sometimes I wonder what it would be like if I had not met him then. I don’t pity my 24 year old friend in law school that can’t get a decent date, but I sometimes envy the autonomy.

     The problem is that if everyone else gets married young, then who is there left to date and be friends with when you are “ready” in your mid/late twenties when you are done with grad school and have a career? All the guys that are done with grad school have 3 kids already, and wouldn’t want a guy years behind me on his school/career path. There’s no peers left.

     Comment by Hokie — March 2, 2009 @ 12:10 pm

134. A few completely random thoughts…
     *We recently had a missionary in our ward who said, with a straight face, that if everyone just read and lived the Proclamation to the Family, there should be no strife in a marriage, that a marriage should work, and that it should be a happy marriage. He defended his opinion by saying that if there was strife in the marriage, it was because the couple was living outside of what the Proclamation stated and that the husband/wife were not living within the advised gender roles. (I almost had a heart attack. After my initial disgust and shock has warn off, I tried to gently tell him that I hoped he grew up before marrying because No Woman could Ever live up to his high expectations.)
     *If my daughters marry before age 30, I will cry myself a river. Please… I really want them to live, travel, date lots of men, get an education, be fully self supporting, grow up, and be free for a while before embarking on such a journey as marriage. Marriage does not equal happiness. It can bring happiness and joy, but all too often it can be completely and utterly miserable and if my daughters find themselves in the ‘miserable’ category, I want them to have the financial and emotional strength to end it. I thank God that when it was time to end my first marriage, that I was able to walk out with my daughter and support us in a very good manner. I can’t imagine the horror of feeling the need to stay in a marriage because I didn’t know how to financially leave it. Many marriages that ’survive’ shouldn’t survive.
     *When my first marriage was crumbling, I went to Deseret Bookstore and was there for hours looking for book(s) that would help me try and turn my marriage around. Almost without exception, church produced books were full of worthless advice like “Go to the temple together more often.” “Fast more.” “Pray together.” “Try to remember the big eternal picture.” Huh??? When it came to raw step-by-step advice, it was sorely lacking. I went elsewhere to learn about how to deal with emotional and sexual abuse and what to do to GET THE HE*L OUT of it.
     *While I desperately want my children to marry and have good, solid, healthy families and relations, I do worry about what they’ll be taught in YW about marriage and their roles in it. In primary a few weeks ago, my 8 year old was taught that someday her husband will preside over their family. She doesn’t ‘get it’ right now, but I resent that kind of indoctrination at that young of an age. I think she’ll learn by example in our home that no one will ‘preside’ over her in the home based on what kind of appendage (or lack thereof) one has between their legs. And I struggle… Is primary more net negative or positive?
     *I wish the church would focus more on finding the right person, becoming self sufficient, and making wise choices and less on ‘get married quickly in the temple and live happily ever after.’ Life and relationships are so much more complicated than that. My cousin found this out the hard way– she married the first ‘nice’ Mormon guy she dated and was completely bewildered when it didn’t work out. “Hmmm,” she mused to me countless times, “my temple recommend priesthood holding husband treats me worse than any non Mormon guy I’ve ever dated.” And when she divorced him, she left the church at the same time. Those very high expectations sometimes set/taught in church are not always realistic… and then what?

     Comment by Lulubelle — March 2, 2009 @ 2:17 pm

135. I tend to believe that cultural groups which encourage women to marry at very young ages, before they have completed any advanced education, spent time on their own, seen much of the world or done many of the other personality-forming/finishing things that young people commonly do between the ages of 18-25, may be intentionally attempting to preserve in their women a more child-like naivete which may be more accepting of a male-dominated authority structure.

     Interesting thought, but in the Mormon framework, it’s not just the women marrying young. You mention the ages of 18-25- I think that 23 was quoted as the average for Mormon men.

     Comment by Brian — March 2, 2009 @ 2:38 pm

136. I know that eternal marriage is supposed to sound like a plus. But for me it is a turn off.

     Comment by StillConfused — March 2, 2009 @ 3:06 pm

137. #135-

     But Brian most of the time those young men have already gone on two year missions. True, missions are highly structured, it’s not like “moving out on your own” but going off and being lauded as part of God’s Army for two years, perhaps in a foreign country, learning a new language, etc., and then coming home as a worthy priesthood holder are all significant life experiences, and of course also trappings of prestige and authority in Mormon culture. Add in the skewed ratios of active men to active women, the desire to marry a worthy priesthood holder, and the overall expectation that family success is most important on this earth,and that a woman’s part in that is being a mother (preferably stay at home mother) and I do still think Lorian has a valid point. While both sexes marry young, in my opinion there is still a difference in their respective experiences.

     I will say, however, in keeping with my tentative cynicism in my previous comment #103, that both men and women are “locked into” the track with these kinds of cultural expectations. Men are often married soon after missions and before they have completed college, and they often become fathers very quickly. They, too, have little time on their own, moving straight from the family home to the mission to a marriage to fatherhood in lightning quick succession.

     Comment by sophia*rising — March 2, 2009 @ 3:09 pm

138. And I don’t mean “locked into” in a negative way, just in a way that makes it hard to change one’s life path. I was more clear in the previous comment I referenced.

     Comment by sophia*rising — March 2, 2009 @ 3:11 pm

139. I don’t see anything in prophetic counsel that suggests that somehow it’s better to deliberately wait to marry until some magical age or until certain specific goals (minus missions for the young men) are met.

     so the guys get to have a mandatory grow up period but the girls don’t?

     blech.

     what is the harm in delaying marriage a few years? seriously?

     if it’s meant to be, than the two people can continue to live their lives, get some education, work and life experience and come together as two adults forming a partnership. they will have had time to develop their spiritual lives as well by attending the temple and building a testimony of the gospel–outside of mommy and daddy’s home.

     Comment by mfranti — March 2, 2009 @ 4:11 pm

140. Mfranti, as is often the case after reading your comments.
     All I can say is

     Amen

     that is all

     Comment by newly feminist male — March 2, 2009 @ 4:44 pm

141. I’ve enjoyed the discussion. As a newly called Young Single Adult Advisor - I appreciate the experience, strength, and hope shared.

     Make it a great rest of Monday!

     Comment by Mary Magdalene — March 2, 2009 @ 5:18 pm

142. what is the harm in delaying marriage a few years? seriously?

     Yes, Mfranti, wonderful point.

     But try telling that to two young (i.e. slightly immature) and horny BYU students who are convinced that they have been guided to thier Eternal Companion. Come hell or high water, those who are determined to marry young will do it.

     I don’t think anyone (especially parents of these kids) is seriously saying, “Yeah, get married right out of high school (or fresh home from a mission) to the very first person you date.” Those of us who have been around and gained some experience in the world, agree with you.

     I think the issue at the heart of the matter is how, as LDS parents and teachers, etc. do we start to change the fairytale mentality?? Especially when (as I said in a previous post, #130) your very salvation and eternal progression is tied to getting married and having children?

     if it’s meant to be, than the two people can continue to live there lives, get some education, work and life experience and come together as two adults forming a partnership

     I agree with this, but I think the main obstacle to this path is the sex/abstinance part. Anyone remember how hard it is not to have sex with someone that you are in a long-term relationship? (Or maybe I’m the only one, lol) And then you add the mormon guilt factor if you do.

     So unless you think it’s no biggie to have sex before marriage, or you have some highly unusual morally strong youth on your hands, waiting to marry after you feel you have found “the one” is kind of a form of torture.

     Comment by anelie — March 2, 2009 @ 5:25 pm

143. anelie- yes, what you say is true about waiting to have sex while in the full bloom of young love.
     So, maybe along with saying that just because you love someone, it doesn’t necessarily mean you should marry that person, it could also be said, that just because you’d like to have sex with someone, it doesn’t necessarily mean you love him/her…or should marry him/her.

     Hormones can tell crazy, crazy lies…they are just chemicals, they do not have judgment.

     Comment by Kimberly — March 2, 2009 @ 5:31 pm

144. My daughter is getting married soon. She is only 21 but has been out of college for 2 years and lived on her own for 5. She seems ready and I support her decision. Many of her friends married much younger and with much less experience. This has been particulary hard on the women who went straight from living with their parents to living with their spouses. They have no sense of self.

     I try to explain this to my Jewish friends. In their culture, you do not get married until after you have finished all of your education and you do not have your children until much later than that. It is very difficult for them to understand the children raising children phenomenon that is so prevalent in our culture.

     Comment by StillConfused — March 2, 2009 @ 5:34 pm

145. Yeah- the sex thing is tough (waiting). I don’t know what’s worse– getting married young in order to stay a virgin until married, or believing that sex before marriage is acceptable. I guess I’d rather my daughters have sex before they’re married rather than making a potentially life-long mistake by rushing into marriage in order to satisfy a libido. I know that’s very un-Mormon of me, but, gosh… realistically, I don’t know how anyone can put off sex for as long a period of time as is (I believe) necessary to get know someone well enough to marry.

     Comment by Lulubelle — March 2, 2009 @ 5:44 pm

146. But try telling that to two young (i.e. slightly immature) and horny BYU students who are convinced that they have been guided to thier Eternal Companion. Come hell or high water, those who are determined to marry young will do it.

     AND

     So unless you think it’s no biggie to have sex before marriage, or you have some highly unusual morally strong youth on your hands, waiting to marry after you feel you have found “the one” is kind of a form of torture.

     it sounds like you think it’s ok to get married for sex becuase it’s just too hard to wait.

     holy shit. if you think it’s hard to wait for sex before marriage, try dealing with colicky? babies or raising a teenager or dealing with financial hardship or the death of a loved one or….not having sex…..after marriage. if a couple of kids are so dang horny for each other but can’t wait, it totally proves the point.

     ______

     do you remember how, if you were lucky, how much your world view changed when you went to college? do you remember how much you changed when you worked your first real job and got a clue as to how f*up the world is? when you realized that the rent is due every month and you can’t buy all that crap you believed you were entitled to as a 22 year old?

     do you remember how much you changed between 18-25? 18-30?

     multiply that by two and now you understand why i’m very skeptical that two kids can really grow up together.

     *once again, i know that some of you have made it work and i don’t want to rehash how great your life is. i just don’t believe that kids today and going forward, are are equipped to deal with marriage at a young age.

     ps in 139 i should have said : they will have had time to develop their spiritual lives as well by attending the temple and building a testimony of the gospel or realizing that the lds church is not for them-outside of mommy and daddy’s home.

     but that should be its own post.

     Comment by mfranti — March 2, 2009 @ 7:48 pm

147. My parents wed because they were the first ones who came across one another’s paths - he was a fresh RM of 21, she a convert of 19. Marriage, to them, equalled the fulfillment of their church duties and the end of their troubles.

     How wrong they were.

     As the product of that miserable marriage that dissolved after 13 loooong years, I have to say, I am so glad that the Church’s focus on the marriage push has changed over the years, from what I can gather.

     I’m going on nine years of BYU/singles ward living now, and although marriage is still stressed (well, nowadays just getting us DATING is the push, since you have to start there), marriage is definitely not framed as a panacea that will make your live hit happily ever after. There will always be some societal pressure to wed in a church where the family is of such a huge focus, but the leaders of the wards I’ve attended definitely stress finding someone who’s the right fit for you - not just whoever comes along - and acknowledge how that person will have shortcomings. We all do. It’s the joys of mortality.

     People often point to Pres. Kimball’s comment about how any two righteous members can make a marriage work, but right before that, he stresses to marry someone who is as close as you can find to your idea of perfection. In my wards, there’s been the focus to throw out “the list” and focus on essentials - someone’s testimony and caliber of character. I think this is a healthy trend that I hope continues - I cringe when I hear 21-year-old girls complain of being old maids!

     Comment by Cougarita — March 2, 2009 @ 7:59 pm

148. It is very difficult for them to understand the children raising children phenomenon that is so prevalent in our culture.

     #144 - If by “our culture” you mean Mormon culture, there is no phenomenon of children raising children. Again, the average marriage age within the Church is 23 for men and 21.5 for women. If two people who are at least 21 are still considered “children”, that says a lot about the culture in which they are raised - or not raised, as the case may be.

     Seriously, someone who is 21 and has a child is a case of “children raising children”? Cut the apron strings already.

     Comment by Ray — March 2, 2009 @ 8:19 pm

149. Oh, and if every single couple who married at 23 and 21.5 got pregnant on their honeymoons, they would be 24 and 22.5 by the time their first baby was born. If they waited even 9 months to get pregnant, they would be 24.5 and 23.

     Children raising children? Please.

     In many places and times, a 23-year-old was two-thirds of the way to death and could be a grandparent by 30. Obviously, I’m not promoting that in any way; I’m just saying our modern notions of not marrying until what used to be common grandparent age is more than just a little bit warped.

     Comment by Ray — March 2, 2009 @ 8:27 pm

150. Ray, sorry that my statement sent you off. However, as someone who had her children at 20 and 23 and had had many more life experiences than most women that age (cancer, college degree, air traffic controller, to name a few), I was still extremely immature .. though I would not have admitted it at that time. Be careful not to compare our culture with those of other cultures or times … our children are not out milking cows at 4am and then walking 6 miles to school, etc. etc. Maturity is not just time on the planet, it is also life experiences. Many of our youth today lack those maturing experiences.

     FWIW, I would still have my kids young even knowing what I know now (because I wouldn’t have the energy later in life) but I acknowledge that I was not a mature adult at that young age.

     Comment by StillConfused — March 2, 2009 @ 9:20 pm

151. SC, I agree with your #150 - I just think it says something profound about our modern American culture.

     Comment by Ray — March 2, 2009 @ 10:10 pm

152. ray,

     hmmm…. do you want me to articulate it or shall we let it be?

     yeah, i’ll let it go.

     

     Comment by mfranti — March 2, 2009 @ 10:14 pm

153. Good choice, girlfriend. I agree with what I assume you would have said, so we can leave it unwritten.

     Comment by Ray — March 2, 2009 @ 10:19 pm

154. holy shit. if you think it’s hard to wait for sex before marriage, try dealing with colicky? babies or raising a teenager or dealing with financial hardship or the death of a loved one or….not having sex…..after marriage. if a couple of kids are so dang horny for each other but can’t wait, it totally proves the point.

     Having dealt with the things you mention, I TOTALLY agree with you. I’m not saying that waiting to have sex is REALLY and truly a hardship.

     …But to an emotionally immature young person, it CAN seem like the hardest thing in the world.

     I’m NOT advocating getting married young or before you are emotionally mature enough to understand it. Of course *I* know how much I matured in college and beyond.

     The point of my post is (and was if you re-read it), sure, those of us who are older and wiser KNOW it is best to have some life experience before you marry, but HOW do you get a 19 year old hell-bent on marriage to GET THAT???

     Comment by anelie — March 2, 2009 @ 11:14 pm

155. it sounds like you think it’s ok to get married for sex becuase it’s just too hard to wait

     ETA: I DON’T think that it’s okay…but I think that very often (all too often) in Mormon culture, that is exactly what happens.

     Comment by anelie — March 2, 2009 @ 11:26 pm

156. I am cringing thinking about what I would’ve married at age 21.5. Yikes– I was so young and immature!!! And I absolutely treasure the growth I experienced from the old mature age of 21.5 until I married at almost 29.

     Comment by Lulubelle — March 2, 2009 @ 11:37 pm

157. Ok, so all this talk of young Mormons getting married and having kids soon after made me think of something that might be an interesting post. Has anyone experienced the couples that have a stay at home mom, a dad in school and sometimes the mom too, and like one or two kids, and so they get pell grants for school (the free money you don’t have to pay back) food stamps, WIC, Medicaid, and often times housing allowances/HUD?

     I’ve known many, many, MANY young Mormon couples like this- seriously too many to even count. And you know what? It doesn’t bother me one bit- they’re getting an education, taking care of their children, that is what those programs are there for. But what burns my @$$ is that I have heard these VERY SAME people bemoaning the “welfare state” or the sense of “entitlement and lack of responsibility” that supposedly inevitably comes with it, and then they’ll actually say “WE”RE using welfare for what it’s supposed to be used for, but those OTHER people are just lazy and taking advantage of it”. Have they thought maybe people would think *they* were taking advantage of it, to have children and get married when they otherwise could not afford to do so? And you know, a lot of these couples graduated, couldn’t get jobs, and later moved back in with mom and dad. Or they move in to save for a down payment on a house, pay off student loans, etc. It’s not real independence for many, many years.

     Anyone else encountered this phenomenon? Sorry if this is a threadjack, but the last few comments reminded me of this.

     Comment by sophia*rising — March 2, 2009 @ 11:50 pm

158. sophia, MormonMentality did a post on that a year or two ago.

     i think it is still being discussed over there.

     Comment by mfranti — March 2, 2009 @ 11:53 pm

159. sophia, it still comes up all over the bloggernacle whenever classic posts are discussed in hushed and awed (and sometimes disgusted) voices.

     Comment by Ray — March 3, 2009 @ 12:03 am

160. I don’t see an emphasis on rushing to get married in my single’s ward. In fact, one of the first talks I heard when I went to that ward (I was converting), was about not just “settling” for anyone that comes along, but waiting for that special someone. I remember one girl complaining that boys don’t ask girls out in that ward. I have no idea, and don’t care, I was already dating the man who baptized me. However, the Marriage Prep. Institue teacher doesn’t think you should have to finish college before marrying.

     I feel that age shoudln’t be a factor in marriage so much as maturity level. Before joining the church I lived with someone else and was engaged to him. However, we just weren’t ready for that level of commitment. Whenever we had problems (usually financial), our relationship would suffer greatly. There was a certain level of emotional abuse. So, I got out. I found my DF, and one of the most wonderful things about our relationship is our ability to work through issues without hurting each other. I’ve got to be honest though, we weren’t always like that. But through more open and honest communication, we have a pretty harmonious relationship.

     We’ve encountered some resistance. My family personally believes that the LDS church is repressive towards women, and during my lessons with the missionaries my mom would hide out in her bedroom. They also believe that the right way to go about life is to get your college education first, then get married. My mother thought I hadn’t put enough time between my last relationship and this one. DF’s parents gave us a lecture about putting off school because we’d have kids right away or something (later on my DF had a talk with his dad about our plan to wait until financially able to have kids…. glad he waited until I was gone for that one). My FMIL then had the nerve to tell DF that she prayed and wasn’t getting that I was the one for her son. Plus, she’s a gossip, so his entire family knows about this wonderful little bit of info.

     But, one of DF’s former mission companions (he personally got married within 3 months of returning home), pretty much said that if it felt right, we shouldn’t wait. Our Insistute teacher said pretty much the same thing. Neither of them said don’t get your degree at all.

     Its hard for me to wait until I can get a recommend. Yeah, part of it has to do with horomones, but I’ve experienced things I probably would not have if I had been raised in the church. It was the most difficult thing to give up… next to coffee. Temple marriage will also be difficult for me b/c DF insists on “doing it right the first time”, which means that my family won’t be able to actually see me get married. That part alone kills the fairy tale for me.

     Comment by belluschanteuse — March 3, 2009 @ 2:18 am

161. #160 - So have a separate ring ceremony after your sealing and “renew your vows” in front of your family. I like this option for everyone who has lots of family who can’t attend a temple sealing.

     Comment by Ray — March 3, 2009 @ 3:12 am

162. My FMIL then had the nerve to tell DF that she prayed and wasn’t getting that I was the one for her son.

     Wow. That one floored me.
     That doesn’t bode well for you future relationship with your MIL, or her son’s, when I think about it.
     I’ve never liked that quaint practice of leveraging prayer against other people…or claiming that personal biases are revelation.

     Comment by Kimberly — March 3, 2009 @ 6:40 am

163. I had the same problem that Tami (the biochem major) did. I was a physics major in college and my career goals were to work in aerospace and eventually be an astronaut. When ever a guy would ask me what my major was their response would always be “So, what are you going to do with that, teach?” It’s like they had to shove me into their idea of what Cinderella should be. I think Prince Charming buys into the fairy tale too.

     Here’s the Kimball Quote with a reference:
     “‘Soul mates’ are fiction and an illusion; and while every young man and young woman will seek with all diligence and prayerfulness to find a mate with whom life can be most compatible and beautiful, yet it is certain that almost any good man and any good woman can have happiness and a successful marriage if both are willing to pay the price.”
     (”Oneness in Marriage,” Ensign, March. 1977,4)

     I think that article was reprinted in the Ensign recently (within the last decade).

     #160, It’s my understanding that your FMIL doesn’t have that kind of stewardship over her adult son anymore.

     Comment by anjorg — March 3, 2009 @ 8:49 am

164. #157 Yeah, amen to that. Especially great when they form their own secret club in grad school, and the wives blackball your “sinful” childless, enrolled-in-grad-school, newly-converted wife while weeping in church about the “sacrifices” they make and how grateful they are for each other’s company.

     Some days I really am amazed we’re still active. If we were still in that ward, we wouldn’t be.

     Comment by Bro. Jones — March 3, 2009 @ 10:05 am

165. Bro. Jones that sounds rough I’m glad you’re not in that ward anymore!

     Comment by sophia*rising — March 3, 2009 @ 10:27 am

166. Also, mfranti and Ray- thanks for the link to the article. I have to say though, they took it from the “should these people even be doing this” aspect. I am more interested in the hypocrisy of how they categorize themselves as better than, or “doing welfare right” compared to other people on welfare. I actually read a long, passionate blog post by a woman who was a stay at home mom and her husband was in dental school, and the first half was how Obama was evil and would create socialism. Then the last half was justifying how it was ok that *they* were on medicaid, wic, food stamps, and subsidized housing, because they would only be on it for 4 years and then would get off and pay taxes. And I thought “and then vote to cut welfare spending!”

     It almost seems like this idea of righteous entitlement- “well of course it’s okay that we’re raising our kids on welfare, because we’re good Mormons doing what Heavenly Father wants us to and we’re raising up righteous seed!”

     Comment by sophia*rising — March 3, 2009 @ 10:31 am

167. #160 and 161 When my daughter got married in the temple 12 years ago I talked her into having a ring ceremony. Not only could I not attend the temple, but neither could her father, her grandparents, sister and best friend. (I supported the temple wedding, by the way.)

     The ring ceremony was performed by her step-brother (a judge) and all who attended liked it. However, it was extremely anti-climactic and those who were there knew that it was fake. I wouldn’t advise it again and I believe she would agree with me.

     Just my experience….

     Comment by Numi — March 3, 2009 @ 11:40 am

168. those who were there knew that it was fake.

     Fake? Did your daughter feel it was “fake” - or did “those who were there” go into it viewing it as “fake”? If they went into it pissed off that they weren’t allowed in the temple and seeing it as fake, of course that would be the outcome.

     I just don’t see it that way. I see it as one ceremony for the temple (a sealing ceremony) and one ceremony for those who can’t be in the temple (a civil re-commitment ceremony). I’d advise the same thing for someone with active, temple-worthy LDS family far away who can’t afford to fly to the sealing (like an American marrying a Japanese). I think it’s a wonderful gesture of inclusion, and the people I’ve known who have done it felt the same way. They expressed it that way to those who attended the ceremony - that they knew everyone couldn’t be in the temple for the sealing, but that they wanted everyone they loved to participate in their wedding vows.

     Perhaps I didn’t explain clearly enough. I’m not talking about just exchanging rings. I’m talking about something much more like a vow renewal ceremony. I’m talking about exchanging rings and writing special vows and giving the bride away (if that floats the boat) and even a full blown vow renewal ceremony - as long as nothing that is said implies that the temple sealing wasn’t a legitimate wedding.

     If it is done through a true love of the people who couldn’t be at the temple ceremony, and if it is structured similar to an actual wedding, how could it be considered “fake” to those who are invited - unless, again, they are pissed off about not being able to be in the temple?

     Comment by Ray — March 3, 2009 @ 12:07 pm

169. Ray, yes, my daughter and her husband both felt like the ring ceremony was anticlimactic. It was a beautiful ceremony with the exact same wording that my stepson uses for all his wonderful weddings, including mine a few years prior to that. She had the whole shebang with the giving away, exchanging rings, bridesmaids, etc. The only difference was the last sentence and who signed the marriage certificate.

     Everyone who attended the ring ceremony knew that the “real” wedding was done that morning in the temple and most were okay with that, except for her bio father (another story altogether). Her grandparents who flew in from out of state loved it.

     This is another reason that I would like to see legal marriages become separate from temple sealings. The feelings of exclusion by those who cannot enter the temple would no longer be an issue on such an important occasion.

     Just to clarify, although I couldn’t attend the temple with her I totally supported her decision, and in fact, encouraged it. I cried as I kissed her goodbye that morning and waited anxiously for her to emerge from the bride’s tunnel. She carried a special handerchief from me during the ceremony and didn’t dawdle inside for a long time because she knew that we were waiting eagerly for her. And yes, she was beautiful. And so was that 19 inches of fresh snow that fell that morning on the SLC Temple.

     Comment by Numi — March 3, 2009 @ 12:35 pm

170. Ray, one more thing… although I don’t consider myself LDS anymore and leaving all the other parts of the temple out of this comment, I’m not sure anything can compare to the beauty of the inside of the temple. I believe it was equally as painful for my daughter to know that I had to wait outside on this most important day in her life.

     Comment by Numi — March 3, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

171. I did a ring ceremony and I would encourage my daughter (and any future children I might have) to also do one. Part of the marriage concept is a public declaration of your love. With the temple ceremony, this does not happen. So, having a ring ceremony was important to fulfill that aspect. We were told vows were not allowed, but statements of love are, so we did that.

     Comment by Tami — March 3, 2009 @ 1:12 pm

172. Tami, it’s been a long time since my temple wedding so I might be fuzzy on this one. But by simply taking part in the sealing ceremony aren’t you publicly declaring your love, at least to those who are able to be there with you?

     Also, I don’t remember any restrictions being placed on vows at the ring ceremony, other than the “I pronounce you” part. Was yours a legal or church thing?

     And Ray, there wasn’t anyone “pissed off” (well, maybe one) about not being able to attend. Hurt feelings, oh yes. Saddened and disappointed, there were many, but most here in Utah know that exclusion is just part of the way things are. If you haven’t ever stood on the outside waiting for that loved one to emerge I’m not sure you can fully comprehend.

     Here’s a question for anyone. If a couple chooses to get legally married outside of the temple is there a waiting period for them to be sealed if they are both worthy? If so, why?

     Comment by Numi — March 3, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

173. My bishop might have been overly cautious in his interpretations- I was the first ring ceremony. I found it hard to view the temple as a public declaration when there was not a single person from my husband’s family and none of my friends. It isn’t that the temple ceremony isn’t a declaration of love, it is that who can be there is so restricted it just doesn’t fell very public.

     Comment by Tami — March 3, 2009 @ 1:50 pm

174. Tami, I’m glad that your ring ceremony was all you wanted out of it. I’m curious to know how your husband and his family felt about it. Going back to the original post, having the fairy tale wedding is not without drawbacks.

     Comment by Numi — March 3, 2009 @ 2:20 pm

175. Numi (#172),
     I think it depends on a few things. My FIL got remarried about ten years ago, they were going to wait until she got a release from her sealing to her first husband, but they decided to go ahead and get married anyway. A few months later when the sealing was dissolved, they were able to get sealed.
     I think the standard is that they are to wait a year.
     Of course, all of this changes when you are in a country where you have to get married civilly first. Where my DH served his mission, you went and got married at city hall and then made the three day journey and got sealed, but the sealing had to happen before a consummation of the marriage. If the sealing occurred after the consummation, it was still standard for the couple to have to wait a year.
     I’m not sure why. I’ve heard of other people who were able to get sealed sooner based on approval from leaders, and one couple that was running into problems with the temple leadership, so they went to another temple and had no problems (except the extra travel).

     Comment by anjorg — March 3, 2009 @ 2:29 pm

176. Numi is right. She was amazingly understanding about my wedding. She spent months making a dress for a ceremony she wouldn’t be invited to. Yes, we had a ring ceremony because we wanted to share our day with everyone. I had family who could not attend the wedding and several friends, as well. I don’t regret the ceremony (except for the biological father part, but I digress…).

     The biggest problem I recall is that the in-laws were not happy about it. Mr. Eris was fantastic, I think he just wanted to show off how nice he looked in that tux, and he was in to the whole thing. But my MIL spent the whole rehearsal and day of complaining about having to waste time on it.

     Numi is not quite right about my regretting it. If I had the wedding day to do over, I wouldn’t have had any big ceremonial stuff. I would have a small sealing at the temple and an intimate dinner with close family and friends (whom I could probably count on fingers and toes).

     Comment by Eris — March 3, 2009 @ 2:40 pm

177. I stand (slightly) corrected. And yes, I made her include her biological father. Ugh.

     Comment by Numi — March 3, 2009 @ 2:45 pm

178. Fwiw, I think the “wait a year between civil marriage and temple sealing” is a relic of an age where nearly every civil marriage involving Mormons was due to pre-marital sex and pregnancy. Iow, if the marriage was “due to sin”, the obvious answer was to make sure the couple had repented prior to entering the temple and being sealed - not “rewarding sin” by letting them be sealed immediately.

     Frankly, I can understand a “do they really want to be sealed for eternity after a year of being married to each other or were they just two horny kids who were stupid” concern.

     As far as our current time, I would support wholeheartedly changing the practice to allow for a civil ceremony first and a temple sealing closely following. I also would support wholeheartedly the issuing of a civil union and dissolution certificate by the government and a marriage and divorce certificate by one’s religious organization - with whatever additional “special” requirements each religious organization wanted to include (including any consequences for divorce). That would make marriage truly special and unique, imo.

     Comment by Ray — March 3, 2009 @ 3:12 pm

179. Oh. Sorry guys, I was starting to check out when I was writing that.

     Ray: We do intend to have a ring ceremony so family and friends who are non-members or non-temple worthy can attend. I just feel a little like its a sham since I’d already legally be married. But I also know how important a temple ceremony is to him, hard as I tried, he just didn’t feel right putting a year between a civil ceremony and temple sealing (what if you do get pregnant right away? Is it true that if you have a child before the temple ceremony, you cannot be sealed to them until they are adults?). And my parents are alright with two ceremonies.

     Kimberly: My DF did NOT respond well to his mother using prayer as a weapon. He pretty much told her to shove it… no really he just told her something like she didn’t have stewardship over that particular revelation. It was six months ago and both me and FMIL have made an effort to get to know each other better and get along.

     Comment by belluschanteuse — March 3, 2009 @ 3:40 pm

180. Belluschanteuse-

     Your children can be sealed to you at any age. My mother and step-dad were sealed after 11 years of marriage, with their kids ranging from 10 to 4. They’d waited 10 years for a temple divorce for my step-dad and his ex. My brother and his wife were sealed after three years with kids almost 3 years to 2months.

     I was even sealed to my step-dad at the same time (I was 15), and all that needed was a written letter of permission from my real dad.

     Comment by Hokie — March 3, 2009 @ 4:40 pm

181. If I had the wedding day to do over, I wouldn’t have had any big ceremonial stuff. I would have a small sealing at the temple and an intimate dinner with close family and friends (whom I could probably count on fingers and toes).

     This is what I want to do. My mother is opposed. But honestly I am a very private person, and I’m simply not interested with having to do a ton of small talk with people whom I barely know, standing there for hours being ogled like some statue at a reception. I feel like too much of the wedding accoutrement exists solely to make everyone else feel happy and involved, even if that is at the expense of the comfort of the couple. Kind of OT, but yeah. I’m looking forward to being married, but not to the wedding itself.

     Comment by Redoubt — March 3, 2009 @ 5:00 pm

182. I think my in laws viewed the temple ceremony as one of those crazy LDS things, while the ring ceremony was for them “the real thing.” We weren’t getting married in the morning, we were doing some religious stuff and in the evening was the marriage. We also tried to incorporate elements from all of our cultural upbringing (LDS, US, Chinese), which made our wedding so far from traditional that most people just went along for the ride. The statements of love were even bilingual, so probably only dh’s father and aunt understood everything we said. One LDS person told my mom this was the first LDS reception she stayed all the way through- no clue what was going to happen next (though really, the lion dancer was the only non typical thing for a US wedding).

     Comment by Tami — March 3, 2009 @ 6:21 pm

183. #182 I think my in laws viewed the temple ceremony as one of those crazy LDS things, while the ring ceremony was for them “the real thing.” We weren’t getting married in the morning, we were doing some religious stuff and in the evening was the marriage.

     Call me a heathen, but that’s the direction I’ve started taking with looking at it all. I’ve tried to explain to my inactive/anti siblings that everything they expect to see (exchanging rings, walking down aisles, etc) they will still get to see. What they’ll be missing (the temple sealing) is something completely foreign to them.

     Of course, I don’t know know why they insist on arguing about this with me right now, seeing as I’m not in a relationship at the moment so temple marriage isn’t an imminent threat. =/

     Comment by Phoenix — March 3, 2009 @ 8:41 pm

184. belluschanteuse ,
     I am not sure if this is the case, or if anyone has covered this yet, but if you have been a member for less than a year (and thus not able to get a recommend yet anyway) I believe the policy is that you can have a civil ceremony and then get sealed a year from your baptism, instead of having to wait a year from your civil wedding.
     That could be the best of both worlds for you, but depending on how long you have been a member, you may have to rush your wedding

     Comment by chiquita — March 4, 2009 @ 12:13 pm

185. Ray, I just have one question for you after reading this blog for several months and especially after your posts on this topic–
     Will you be my bishop? and then stay the bishop until my two little daughters grow up and move on? Oh please, oh please, oh please?

     I was made to feel terrible when I asked my bishop and family-friend to hold a ring ceremony for me and he said that doing such was a mockery of my temple wedding. We were married in the temple and then went on our honeymoon for a week. When we came back we had a ring ceremony that my seminary teacher (who later became the bishop) MCeed and it all worked out and my non-member friends and husband’s family loved it. I should admit, however, that our ceremony was not the traditional type, we chose to take all of our friends and family to a San Diego Padres baseball game. We ate a catered dinner in the parking lot and then headed into the stadium where we exchanged rings just in front of the seats we had purchased and my seminary teacher said some things about marriage. Then we had goody bags and watched the Padres lose. So perhaps my bishop thought that the setting was making a mockery of marriage but the truth is we love baseball and this really fit who we were and are as people and a couple. It was tons of fun and I have absolutely no regrets.

     Sort of on this topic, I know this isn’t at all typical for mormons but Ray (and all others), what is your take on renewing vows later in life, like 10 or 20 year anniversary. I am so drawn to this idea, nothing fancy but I would love to publicly declare my love for DH again.

     Comment by LT — March 4, 2009 @ 1:50 pm

186. what is your take on renewing vows later in life, like 10 or 20 year anniversary. I am so drawn to this idea, nothing fancy but I would love to publicly declare my love for DH again

     If you are so drawn to it, then go for it. I think it’s wonderful when a couple within a long-standing relationship still feels that fresh and enthused towards each other.

     I always marvel at how different people are, because I really loved my second wedding- it was in our our new home, with two attendants (our best friends) and my two girls. We weren’t sealed until a year after dh converted. I have no problem public speaking and used to act in theater years ago- but I have the hardest time having anyone witness anything emotional/private between me and my dh. I’ll honestly discuss just about anything (ask anybody here), but when it comes to PDA or emotional stuff in public, I’m a total chicken. So, I am so relieved all the public display is over!

     Comment by Kimberly — March 4, 2009 @ 3:50 pm

187. I regret to this day taking my bishop’s counsel not to have a ring ceremony. My mother and father waited in Temple Square why we did our thing inside without them. No family, no siblings, no nothing. It has caused a rift that is only beginning to close, and I doubt will ever heal.

     I question the entire premise of any religious activity that by definition must alienate and hurt. There is always a way to be devout without being offensive (this goes for both the offender and offendee). Kaboshing the centuries-old tradition of the family wedding without any nod at all to the family’s feelings (these could be assuaged with a ring ceremony) is just plain wrong. And it is certainly not Christian.

     (If anyone quotes Christ as bringing a sword, or how He will turn fathers against sons, needs to (1) learn Greek, and (2) spare me).

     Comment by Apogee — March 4, 2009 @ 4:42 pm

188. I’m trying to figure out why everyone keep mixing up a temple sealing with virginity, castles, princesses and so forth?

     Saving your viriginity for marriage is one thing and having a temple sealing is another. They are unrelated and are totally separate. Why are they getting mingled? Whether you choose to open these gifts together or separately, or with separate people makes little difference in the end provided you have the correct ordiances. You still must grow in unity until you become one. For most couples, this is a lifelong journey that normally isn’t quite finished in this life.

     Comment by wondering — March 5, 2009 @ 1:39 am

189. Try reading “His Needs, Her Needs” by Willard Harley. Cost $3 used, online. Read it together. If you two will master the principles in this book, your wife cannot help herself from falling in love with you again.

     Comment by to Apogee — March 5, 2009 @ 1:43 am

190. Ugh! Here’s a twist. My non-member bother is marrying a Wiccan today. My 5 yr old is ring bearer. We’re getting ready and he says, “I’m so excited to go to the temple today!” (He’s been indoctrinated…had no idea that happened so fast.) I’m trying to explain to him that not all marriages happen in the temple (but he has a clear memory of our sealing) and he’s SO confused, saying he’s sad because it’s not a real wedding and his new cousin won’t be eternal family. Now, somehow between now and the 3pm ceremony, I have to keep the explanations simple enough to stick and hopefully prevent something unintentionally hurtful being said on a day that is very joyous for my brother and his new little family!

     Comment by Kimberly — March 6, 2009 @ 9:34 am

191. All, I’m so grateful that the script allows for celestial/eternal marriage. And that decisions on childbearing/education get to be made between God and the husband and the wife. I’m not a cookie cutter wife. Rather with two graduate degrees, still working, and with 3 lovely children (and still happily married to the same husband going on 20 years). I’m a little bit of an anomaly. This wouldn’t have happened had I not had a stalwart spouse who loves and supports me. I’m sorry to hear about Bro. Jones experience. We would be your friends, I’m sure. Some blessings happen in their own time/own way.

     I do think we place a lot of emphasis on the goal, without any support for the work between the current state of the person and that goal and what happened after marriage - a lot of work and enduring to the end. I hope you can find peace and joy in your current relationships.

     Comment by Yet another J — March 9, 2009 @ 12:13 pm

192. I would love to see some emphasis on women attending the temple before marriage. I don’t see why they can’t receive their endowments at 19 just like the guys. My sister wanted to get her endowments at 20 and was told NO. Why? Why can’t we women have the blessing of the endowment when God inspires us to receive it. Choosing the timing would certainly allow people to absorb something that is very deep and often takes a long time to understand and appreciate.
     I served a mission, so I had the chance to have my endowment seperate from my sealing, and that made a HUGE difference. There should be little to no tie between the two ordinances. The endowment is lost on stressed out girls just trying to make it through what is hopefully an exciting, but infinitely stressful day.

     As a side note, I was married at 33, and anyone else out there who felt like a pariah for not being married in your 30’s or having to restart your life due to a divorce brought on by this problem just remember that God values you. It is a trial, but we are the diamonds … refined through pressure. I believe in the promise of compensation (See E. Wirthlin’s talk “Come What May and Love It) .

     Comment by blondepoetess — March 10, 2009 @ 12:27 pm

193. Blondepoetess,
     I agree with you. I was able to take my endowments out at nineteen. I had a very supportive bishop and it was time for me. I think that I really needed my experience with the endowment to be separate from anything else going on in my life, even preparation for a mission would have clouded the endowment for me.
     During my engagement it brought a lot of strength to my relationship with my then fiance to be able to go to the temple once a week with him. It helped us to be more focused on creating a good relationship than I think we would have been otherwise.
     I’ve heard that they don’t want girls taking out their endowments without a “reason” because so many have chastity issues later. I’ve never seen anything official and would seriously question a leader about something official if they refused to help a worthy member to be able to attend the temple. I think that it is fine to ask for proof of such a stance, especially if you feel that it is time for you to receive your endowment.

     Comment by justme — March 11, 2009 @ 8:29 am

194. I just found this blog and am intrigued! This in particular is fascinating. I was married in the temple at 29. I was very clear that education and just enjoying life were my priorities. I knew I was not ready for marriage (just as I knew I was ready when I did get married). However, I was veeeery lucky in that I had YW leaders who were very realistic about all aspect of marriage. They taught us that marriage was WORK sometimes, and that sex was more than likely not going to be amazing and wonderful at first. They also made it clear that some of us would be ready to be married young, and some of us would wait. Also, waiting until you are ready is OK. With all these lessons I was well-prepared to endure university wards, meat market mentality, and people telling me I was just “too picky.” There’s a reason I was too picky, and in the end I got everything I wanted and more in a husband.

     The point to all this is, I think the issue is with the local leaders more than the church itself. I’ve joked with my mom that I’ll never get called as a YW leader because instead of having “wedding dress” fashion shows like some I’ve heard of, I’d have girls with degrees and vocational information walking the runway. Ultimately, it comes down to local leadership though. I was very encouraged when my mom’s bishop said he’d love to have me talk to the YW about the value of education and waiting for marriage. Hopefully this kind of attitude will spread.

     Comment by Ellsey — March 13, 2009 @ 1:47 am

195. As a single BYU grad I have had to deal with the questions of curious ward members when I moved back home to work and save money for grad school. I am attractive, smart, and involved so why haven’t I gotten hitched yet? My own dad was joking with the Bishop recently and told him that I was on the “ministering angel” track instead of the marriage track. Ouch. The truth is that I have not been social or emotionally prepared for the level of commitment required to make a relationship last a life time much less eternity and I haven’t wanted to jump the gun.

     The LDS culture puts a lot of emphasis on temple marriage because it is the ultimate goal; the key to the tip top pearly gates. There’s nothing wrong with that. It becomes morphed however, when girls are led to believe that the endowment is merely a stepping stone to the sealing and discredit the scared nature of the individual ordinace.

     I’ve been preparing to go to the temple myself and asked my singles ward bishop about it before leaving school. He told me that as a rule in our stake single sisters were not given temple recommends to receive the endowment until after they turn 25 years old unless they are peparing for a mission or marriage. My bishop explained that they want to dissuade people from going through the temple just so they can attend a friend’s wedding or some other unnecessary action. How is it any different to be a young girl suddenly in love and wanting to attend her own wedding in the temple although she has no real understanding of the implications and has undergone no preparation for the ordinances?

     Temple marraige is further discredited by those who think of it as merely the “way it’s done” as an LDS cultural highlight. It is used by YW/YM leaders to symbolize the only “right” way to be married and anything else is akin to breaking the law of chastity. I should know because I drank all of this in as a youth and only recently changed my mind after extensive study on the subject.

     Truth and knowledge are the only way to put proper emphasis on these things and when the hormones boil, there is very little time to seek an education of any substance.

     Comment by zammity — November 19, 2009 @ 3:22 pm

196. Why all the pressure?…

     I did not read through all 195 comments here but I can see why the debate about the temple is going on. Why is there pressure in the church to get married in the temple? Because of agency.

     Growing up means making decisions: college, career, spouse, and religion. The big deal about the temple is that it is not only a major decision, but a major promise. Getting married with an eternal perspective is a big deal. I doubt that most young people getting married understand all the obstacles involved but those who see past their own hormones and other selfish desires see heaven; the goal of making it back to God’s presence. That said; you cannot truly seek or serve “God and mammon.”

     THAT is why it is so great and happy a thing to get married and make covenants in the temple. It is a good decision; making it early does not exclude one from the ignorance of youth, but it does set one on a pretty darn good path to learn about life.

     The reason it is so hard is because one has to make that DECISION over and over every day of his or her life. Love is not a promise, it is not a fairy tale. It is a choice. The reason people fall out of love or are unable to cope with differences is because they choose not to. But if two people want the same thing, the same big thing(a family that will stick together NO MATTER WHAT; we are talking sickness and health, poverty and pennies, success and laziness; get the picture??) then nothing will stop them; not even the devil himself. It’s called work.

     That’s what makes a temple marriage a happy thing and a good decision to understand and make when the opportunity presents itself. There are other paths. Scary and risky and sad paths on which it is near impossible to make u-turns; do not risk them.
     After baptism one receives the holy ghost for accompaniment to face new responsibility. After the endowment one has companions on his or her mission and an eternal partner in the case of marriage. How convenient!…and necessary.

     “In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man MUST enter into this order of the priesthood[meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]…The more sure word of prophecy means a man knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life…. It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.”
     D&C 131:1,2,5,6

     It is never destiny, it is an ever awesome opportunity, do not lose it.
     From a man who lost his gal to the world, but not his love.

     Comment by skeets — April 13, 2010 @ 11:34 pm

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