Guilt
I remember as an angry teenager telling my mother, “I feel guilty.”
And she replied, “Good. Guilt is good. It’s how you know you’re doing something wrong.”
Yeah. Well maybe sometimes. But that assumes that guilt is just as black-n-white as right-and-wrong, and sadly life just isn’t that tidy.
I feel profoundly guilty for the state my house is in. I feel guilty that I’ve been neglecting this blog. I feel guilty that my kids are eating too much chocolate pudding and watching too much tv and covered in more that usual amount of goo. I feel guilty that my primary activity for the last two weeks has been staring at the ceiling contemplating hopelessness. I feel guilty that my husband calls me every two hours to make sure I’ve held it together. I feel guilty that I want him to do more when he has nothing left to give. I feel guilty that I’m not there for him mentally or emotionally. I feel guilty that my temper simmers so close to the surface that I have to shut myself down completely so that I don’t spend all my time foaming at the mouth.
I feel too guilty to demand that dh take some days off work so I can go to a doctor or check myself into a mental hospital or go to my mother’s to lock myself in the cold dark basement for a week.
I know I’m in a bad place. And I don’t know why, hoping it will pass as quickly and slyly as it came. And I feel too much guilt to ask anyone for real help.
I don’t know how much guilt I should be feeling. This kind of depression is profoundly selfish. Selfish is wrong. I should feel guilty for that. As a woman I’ve been taught since birth that there’s nothing more vile and despicable than selfishness. Especially in a mother.
But the guilt doesn’t seem to be any good in goading me toward anything useful. It just lays on me thicker and thicker, layer after layer, as I gasp for fresh air that does not come. As the house gets more dirty and the children more clingy and the husband more ragged. And I lie there, staring at the ceiling, immobilized under the weight of it all.
I think most mothers struggle with too much guilt. And I know hope that most of the guilt I’m feeling now is misplaced and unecessary. If this is some hormonal problem perhaps I need drugs instead of guilt. Or perhaps I need more sleep, or more excercise, or more veggies.
Or maybe these physiological excuses, are just that, excuses. What if it is all selfishness and I do need to buck up and pull it together and put on my game face. And make the guilt go away through old-fashioned hard work.
But if the guilt doesn’t motivate me, and it doesn’ t seem to be working so far, then what good is it after all?
I seriously think guilt is partially hereditary or at least genetic. Some people CANNOT help feeling guilty. Hang it there, and try not to beat yourself up.
Comment by Carrie Ann — June 22, 2005 @ 5:14 pm
I am a firm practitioner of emotional conservation, and guilt is on my list of wasteful emotions. Forgive yourself. Move on. Don’t dwell on it. You’re not perfect. And I’m willing to bet your house/family/etc is in better shape than mine!
Comment by Susan M — June 22, 2005 @ 6:12 pm
for heavens sake, please don’t feel guilty for needing a break. there is nothing wrong with the right kind of selfishness. be selfish if you need to, it is a vital part of self care, and without self care, you aren’t going to be good to anyone.
it makes me so sad that we are taught that it is wrong and even that we are being sinful when we take care of our own needs.
if you need help, get it. ask your visiting teachers to clean your house, or your mom, or a friend or hire someone if you can. get your hubby to take a day off so you can get to the doctor, have him set aside a night each week where he is the one at home and you get to go out of the house. whatever you do, just do something! please, please, take care of yourself.
Comment by Aimee Roo — June 22, 2005 @ 6:44 pm
Lisa, i’m so sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time. It sounds to me that you are just depressed, and i speak from experience. feeling guilty is only useful if you have truly sinned, and not having a clean house is not a sin, and neither are the other things you’ve mentioned. for me i find i have to let go of guilt, or i too am immobilized. it makes it too easy to wallow… can i give you cyber hugs? ((((Lisa))))
Comment by mindy — June 22, 2005 @ 9:07 pm
I know that my story is different than yours, but I offer it anyway. There was a time in the not too distant past where I was starting to be overwhelmed by guilt. Guilt for having a crisis that others didn’t seem to have. It wasn’t untill I had the chance to talk to somone who loved me and who had experienced a similar crisis, though greater that things began to ameliorate. I was able to cry with this person and because of her example I was able to shed my sociological guilt and start dealing with the crisis. I think it is alot easier to hide guilt for internal crises than external crises, though. It is easier to escape to the external than from it. I seem to be rambling on, sorry.
Comment by J. Stapley — June 22, 2005 @ 9:19 pm
Guilt has crippled me in the past too, and also for things that weren’t sins, just areas that weren’t as good as I wanted. I did end up being treated for depression. I’ve also had to let go of everyone else’s standards, and just go by what I can do and what I think is important. It’s pretty hard to let go of some of those ideas. I’ve probably slipped in some areas, but being free from guilty makes everything worth it.
I hope you can get past the guilt. I think guilt is one of the most worthless emotions. I know some say it’s important because it tells you when you’re doing something wrong, but my guilt always kicked in for dumb reasons. Guilt does me no good at all.
Hang in there, Lisa.
Comment by Melinda — June 22, 2005 @ 10:08 pm
I have a friend who defines guilt as the opposite of godly sorrow. One will bring you down (guilt) while the other will bring you closer too god (godly sorrow). My friend likes to say that for every true gospel principle there is a false one that tries to upsurp it. And I have never seen guilt provoke any long term lasting happiness; it usually destroys people’s sense of self worth, and promotes the idea that God wants you to be unhappy and depressed. Did Jesus guilt-trip anyone?
Comment by Dallas Robbins — June 22, 2005 @ 11:09 pm
i think that you have a very wise friend dallas.
Comment by Aimee Roo — June 23, 2005 @ 12:25 am
you are stronger than you think. just reaching out and expressing your feelings takes courage. don’t give up–you have the strength in you–even if at times you doubt that.
i have suffered from episodes of depression and i know it is hell. i often felt like the ultimate failure and in everything that wasn’t perfect, i looked upon it as just another sign that i just wasnt’ doing enough. but at a certain point, i had to let it all go. i had to choose to be happy and choose how i’d treat myself. i never went on meds but i’ve heard that it helps some people. for me, it was taking control–the best i could and ignoring those judgemental voices. also, another huge thing for me was learning to be less judgemental of others. ironically, the way we talk about others really is just a reflection of how critical we are of ourselves. if i could find compassion, patience, and love for others, i could develop that for myself. so perhaps monitoring that inner critic would be a tool in combatting this demon of depression and guilt.
it is a process and you need to be gentle with yourself. as soon as you hear that inner critic–shut her down as best you can. what i have done to make this easier is find beautiful poetry or images to transition to. i especially like guided meditation–deepak chopra has a great CD about healing meditation…..not for everyone, but for me, i love it. sharon salzberg is another that i’ve heard is good.
for me i had to take responsibility for my own happiness. there are a million things that i could be unhappy about but i CHOOSE to look for things that will be uplifting and bring me joy. this too took a while to get used to since my i was use to noticing the negative before the good.
i’m still working on it. there are still times i feel lonely and feel like i could teeter into another dark time but i fight it and i fight it hard. i push it away with these things and so far it has been effective.
sister, you can do it! you are strong…..find that inside yourself. believe it. look at the love those around you have for you. believe that love. get the help you need–and consider it not as displaying weakness but with confidence since you will be taking control once again of your life.
i wish you the best…..
love, andrea
Comment by Andrea Andersen — June 23, 2005 @ 7:22 am
I’m always so sad and so sorry to hear about the paralyzing guilt that Mormon women feel–and I seem to hear about it a lot. I honestly think that the widespread guilt and depression that Mormon women experience is the great tragedy of the church, and one that we certainly need to address directly.
I’ve also been struggling with a guilt over my apparent selfishness, and fortunately, I have good friends and a great husband who are trying to help me work through it. Here’s our system at home (which is, I know, a little cheesy, but it’s actually been working): at the end of the day, my husband and I identify all of the good things that we did that day, and the rule is that I can’t give in to my impulse to cancel out any of the good things I’ve done by focusing on the bad (for example: If I’ve gone visiting teaching, I have to give myself credit for going…I can’t say “Well, I did my visiting teaching today, but it wasn’t really a good deed because I really would have preferred to stay home reading.”). It’s helped a bit…perhaps as sort of a reverse of “count your blessings,” (a process designed, I think, to make us feel guilty about our desires), it’s kind of a “count all the good things you do” if for no other reason than to give yourself a break from beating yourself up; to have a chance to give yourself credit for all the good things you do, and see what a fabulous person you actually are!
I have been thinking quite a bit lately about Mormon guilt, and it is strikes me (and maybe people will disagree) that this is largely a female emotion. I absolutely do not think that we just come this way–we don’t–but I’m wondering what produces this emotion for women in the church, and why it seems to (for the most part) pass over the men. I think, too, that Mormon women’s guilt–unlike male guilt in the church–is somehow connected to the imperative that Mormon women feel to be selfless. Have you noticed, for example, that selfishness in women is much more legible than selfishness in men? When, for example, do we think a man is selfish because he wants to wants to get an advanced degree or pursue some career interest or even go out and play basketball with the boys? How often, though, are women labelled as selfish when they express the same sorts of desires? That is, women are consistently obligated to be selfless–to give up goals, desires, interests; to move around the country for husband’s jobs; to give up education or career goals, etc–in order to support her husband or serve her family. If she expresses any contrary desires, or if men make comparable sacrifices for their wives’ interests, goals, or desires, it’s scandalous–among Mormon men and women alike. I’m temped to understand Mormon female guilt as a disciplinary and punitive emotion–women, I think, primarily feel this guilt when they fail to match up with some (nonexistent) domestic ideal that involves some version of selflessness. I also don’t think that Mormon women’s guilt will go away until we rethink our (really old) ideas about gender roles–specifically the notion of the Mormon woman as the angel in the house. I also hope that people respond and say where they think guilt comes from and how we might get away from it…I’m absolutely interested in hearing what everybody else has to say.
Finally, I just want to say that I love this blog. It’s honestly been a ray of sunshine in a somewhat murky quirky Mormon world! I also want to send a shout out to the vixen goddesses Minerva and Athena!
Sonnet
Comment by Sonnet — June 23, 2005 @ 7:35 am
One more thing…so I guess that big long message is all to say that maybe you could start, Lisa, by giving yourself all the credit you deserve for your work on this blog. Honestly, I think it’s a huge step in helping women in the church, and I hope that it becomes increasingly visible to Mormon men and women alike.
Sonnet
Comment by Sonnet — June 23, 2005 @ 8:20 am
I must be missing the guilt gene. I have never had it and I really don’t understand it at all. I’d like to be more sympathetic but I don’t even begin to comprehend it.
Comment by Kwan Yee — June 23, 2005 @ 9:33 am
Does anybody remember a lesson from the old RS manuals called “Positive Uses for Feelings of Guilt”? I was newly inducted into RS when I saw it and I remember feeling somewhat incredulous that such a thing would be in a church manual. I’ve concluded that they probably meant well, but, dang it, I think was ultimately hurtful to a lot of women’s psyches. It reinforces the (wrong) idea that guilt is good for us. I agree with Dallas’s wise friend and I’ve seen waaaay too many women beating themselves up over little things.
Melinda said:
This has been my experience as well. I think we need to try our best to be what we want to be, but at the same time we need to be able to enjoy life, heck, we need to enjoy our imperfections, if for no other reason that won’t get to ever again.
God never expected us to be perfect–the Plan wouldn’t have worked if we were. Yes, Christ said, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father… “, but my understanding is that we are to be perfect through Christ, like the whole Parable of the Bicycle thing. We can’t do it ourselves and we’re not expected to. God and we, ourselves, want ourselves to enjoy life and we can’t do that if we let ourselves get hung up on every little shortcoming. Even a mountain of shortcomings.
And so, Lisa, for all your supposed shortcomings (not properly appreciating chocolate, for one thing), you still love God, you love your DH and kids, you run one rockin’ blog that has been filling an emotional, social, and spiritual void for at least one woman who was starting to despair of ever finding people who could relate to her trying to be faithful LDS and feminist at the same time. I love your stories of poop and crossing wires over dance recitals. I love Buttercup’s photologue of flowers. I love that you tell your kids that witches eat eye of newt and yogurt. You are the supreme goddess of my FMH world!!
Comment by Artemis — June 23, 2005 @ 9:35 am
I never used to feel guilt–not until I married. This seems like a bald and bizarre statement, but let me see if I can make it make sense.
When I say never felt guilt, I mean it in the sense that Dallas’s friend did. I felt godly sorrow when I’d done wrong, but I never felt that millstone-around-your-neck feeling that seems to come with guilt. I think I have mentioned in other posts that as I grew up in the Church, I was somehow able to ignore the more odd YW teachings (like the YW leader who testified about how she’d been collecting china for her hope chest by getting plates and such for ever birthday/christmas/other since she was 12). I didn’t plan on marrying, I was perfectly comfortable being a ministering angel, and therefore I didn’t need to take on the baggage that I saw YW trying to strap onto my back. (This is not to say that YW doesn’t have some redeeming qualities.)
But then I did marry. And let it be known that my husband is totally RAD and he doesn’t expect me to capitulate to the “ideal,” and actually wants me to be strong, independent, and pursue my own goals. However, I’ve found that somehow all that guilt about having my own goals and not yearning for children and so forth that Sonnet mentions above came crashing down with a vengeance. Moreover, I became guilty for not having be guilty up to that point! Athena as Prodigal Daughter.
I don’t really know how to account for it, but I do believe that guilt is good for nothing. It doesn’t motivate, it defeats, and I try to ignore it whenever possible. I like Sonnet’s idea of counting the good things, and I also have to add my voice to the rest regarding this blog. I think that if women like us become more visible in the Church, the generations rising up behind us will have far less reason to feel guilty for their own thoughts, desires, and feelings. Well done, Lisa.
Comment by Athena — June 23, 2005 @ 9:56 am
The thing is, what if for an instant (or more) you stop loving God, or your spouce or your kids? I’ll be the first one to admit that this is not a good place to be, but I think in the church, it is hard to sepperate them. If for a moment you stop loving God, it is hard to have the same feelings for those who seem to love God so much, even if they are a spouce. I’m not saying this is Lisa’s situation, but it is not uncommon.
Comment by J. Stapley — June 23, 2005 @ 9:59 am
Lisa, when it’s that bad it is time to ask for help, no matter how freaked out about it you are. Also imho it sounds far beyond guilt and possibly bordering on a clinical depression (although of course only a doctor can really say that). After a winter in that place I took my kid to a psychiatrist, took a parenting class, and enlisted my dad to give me two hours off a week. And looking back on it all I developed the mantra that successful moms are not problem free, they are problem solvers. It’s highly unlikely that this will go away by itself. Get some help, Lisa. And tell your husband I said so. Half a day at home while you go spill your guts to the doctor is not going to kill him. He will be much happier with a healthy wife. And by the way I think if you can’t ask for help you are just playing the martyr and we all know how attractive that is. Don’t do it. I’ve already done it and I promise you it is no good.
Comment by Ana — June 23, 2005 @ 10:01 am
First of all, wonderful topic. Thanks for bringing it up so honestly. Secondly, may I extend the utmost empathy for I can say that I am also highly aware of the feelings expressed. Thirdly, I apologize in advance for everything I am about to say.
At every moment in our lives we have a choice before us. Literally, every second. And at the moment of each choice, we know deep down if the choice we are making is wrong. It’s not always clear and sometimes we don’t even realize it until in retrospect. But we know. How do I know we know? Guilt tells us. Guilt is the emotion created when we go against what we believe to be right.
Now it’s true that in some cases, as has been mentioned, what we believe to be right has been socially or psychologically constructed and is not necessarily true. However, I think that this is the case much less often than we think it is.
At any rate, we feel guilt when we have done otherwise than we thought we ought to have done. And guilt is perhaps the most awful emotion in human existence, so it’s understandable that we are desirous to do anything to get rid of it. Almost anything, that is. There is One Thing that we can do to get rid of it, but that One Thing is the very last thing we want to do.
So, we find other ways to try to diminish it. One common way is justifying our behavior. We insist that we have good reasons for doing the things we do, and in all likelihood, they really are pretty good reasons. Because of difficulties of all sorts, we try to tell ourselves that what we’re doing is right. And if what I’m doing is right, why should I feel guilty? It makes us confused at our guilt and upset at its presence. Taking this approach usually frustrates and depresses us, but justifying our behavior does dampen the guilt somewhat, so we usually go with it.
Another way to diminish the guilt, similar to the first, is to remodel our sense of right and wrong. We insist that church leaders, society, and all who affirm our current sense of right and wrong are wrong in so doing. Perhaps they are wrong because they do not understand our situation, or maybe they are wrong because they are putting upon us what we feel to be unrealistic expectations. In any case, we conclude that the ideals of rightness that they insist upon are either incorrect or do not apply to us: in so doing we alter our sense of right and wrong so that it fits into to what we want it to be. This eases the guilt significantly, but it doesn’t go away completely, because we still know deep down.
Another way we can diminish the guilt, again similar to the first two, is to insist that our own sense of right and wrong has been wrong all along – to believe that we have modified what we believe to be right to the form of unrealistic expectations. Sometimes this is true. Sometimes we create things in our mind that have little to do with true right and wrong and make it an issue of right and wrong. Correcting this self-altered vision can be a major step in reducing guilt. How we tell the difference between what we think is right and what is really right is a difficult thing, but something that does need working through.
HOWEVER, I think the problem, more often than not, is NOT that we have too many unrealistic expectations of ourselves. The problem is quite the opposite. It is that we have convinced ourselves that nearly all of our expectations for ourselves are unrealistic or wrong. Let me say that again, for emphasis. The problem is that we have convinced ourselves that nearly all of our expectations for ourselves are unrealistic or wrong. This state of mind creates a trap for us. On the one hand, we’ve said our self-expectations are wrong, but on the other, we still know deep down that they’re actually right. This mental paradox creates a paralysis of guilt. There’s no way out.
Again, with profuse apologies for being judgmental and preachy, but since Lisa has used herself as an example, allow me to continue to use Lisa as an example. My comments are not intended to judge Lisa in any way personally, but they provide a great example for what I think to be a common problem.
Lisa begins saying, “But that assumes that guilt is just as black-n-white as right-and-wrong, and sadly life just isn’t that tidy.”
So right here, we’re saying: maybe my beliefs as to what is right and wrong aren’t correct after all. She then to proceeds to provide what I am assuming to be examples of things that she has traditionally thought to be wrong, but isn’t so sure. These are the things that aren’t black and white after all the things that she hopes are “misplaced and unnecessary.”
May I suggest that they ARE a little more black-n-white than we might think.
I feel profoundly guilty for the state my house is in: Depends heavily on the situation, but most likely something to feel guilty about.
I feel guilty that I’ve been neglecting this blog: Probably not something to feel guilty about.
I feel guilty that my kids are eating too much chocolate pudding and watching too much tv and covered in more that usual amount of goo: some things are impossible to control when you have lots of young kids, but maybe something to feel somewhat guilty about.
I feel guilty that my primary activity for the last two weeks has been staring at the ceiling contemplating hopelessness: Definitely something to feel guilty about.
I feel guilty that my husband calls me every two hours to make sure I’ve held it together: Depending on the cause for such actions, probably something to feel guilty about.
I feel guilty that I want him to do more when he has nothing left to give: Definitely something to feel guilty about.
I feel guilty that I’m not there for him mentally or emotionally: Definitely something to feel guilty about.
I feel guilty that my temper simmers so close to the surface that I have to shut myself down completely so that I don’t spend all my time foaming at the mouth: Definitely something to feel guilty about.
I feel too guilty to demand that dh take some days off work so I can go to a doctor or check myself into a mental hospital: May or may not be something to feel guilty about.
or go to my mother’s to lock myself in the cold dark basement for a week: Absolutely something to feel guilty about. Heaven’s sakes, I hope that’s metaphorical.
(Let me remind you again, in case you’ve been reading quickly through this long comment, that I have not said the above in order to be judgmental towards Lisa. Rather, I am in the midst of making a point that begins with the paragraph that begins with the word HOWEVER. If you are offended by what I am saying, please at least go back to that point and follow the line of thought.)
How do I know that these things are something we should definitely feel guilty about? Because we’re human beings. And unlike animals, who are slaves to biology and environment, we have agency. We have the ability to choose for ourselves who we will be and what we will do.
This brings us to the One Thing. There is no backdoor to guilt. However hard or desperately we may look for it, there’s only one way out. And that is to do what is right. And doing that is often very hard. But it IS possible. It’s when we convince ourselves that it’s not possible that we begin to despair. We always have the ability to do what we know, deep down, to be right. And then to do it for the right reason. Helping others with the intent to make yourself feel better isn’t going to make yourself feel a single bit better. It only comes when we truly, fully, love the neighbor as the self. When we love all others just as much as ourselves and are caught up in helping one another because we truly love them. We forget ourselves, and we become happy. Truly happy. The great plan of happiness is a plan for this life. The happiness is for now.
So is guilt a good thing? That’s entirely up to each of us and how we respond to it. If we choose to rationalize it, attempt to ignore it or become upset about it, it is definitely a bad thing. But if we choose to respond to it with humility, it’s one of the best things in this world – and is probably the single greatest tool for bringing us back to Christ. Ironically, nothing will bring us real happiness better than guilt can.
Let me finish by once again honestly apologizing for what I do not doubt will be considered insensitive, rude, sexist, and judgmental comments. Considering the high probability that I have simply been unclear, let me just say that I am more than happy to answer any questions to the best of my ability about anything that I have said, assuming anyone actually reads all of this.
Comment by Eric Russell — June 23, 2005 @ 10:15 am
Well, you got one thing right–you are insensitive, rude, sexist, and judgmental. And self-righteous. Have you ever felt guilty about that?
Comment by Artemis — June 23, 2005 @ 10:25 am
Oh, and did I mention you are wrong? Go ponder Dallas’s comments again.
Comment by Artemis — June 23, 2005 @ 10:26 am
Actually, Dallas’ comment is the one I agree with the most.
Comment by Eric Russell — June 23, 2005 @ 10:29 am
Then add hypocrite to your list of vices. And start trying to actually understand what Dallas and most of the others on this post have said.
Comment by Artemis — June 23, 2005 @ 10:35 am
eric. yes, i’d say your comments are ignorant and insensitive ….perhaps well-intentioned but ulimately self-serving (in the sense that you think you understand it all). who do you think you are to tell someone they SHOULD feel guilty? give me a freakin’ break.
you may just be writing these things to be inflammatory but i’ll try to give you the benefit of the doubt. it seems to me like perhaps this is an issue you have or do struggle with as well and this is the way you’ve dealt with it –psycho-wanna-be analysis. your comments don’t contribute to growth–however your logic.
and eric, let me finish by honestly apologizing for what I do not doubt will be considered insensitive, rude, sexist, and judgmental comments.
Comment by paloma — June 23, 2005 @ 10:40 am
Eric,
Do you therefore think that all of those things that Lisa and the rest of us should “definitely” feel guilty about are also things we ought to have godly sorrow about? Godly sorrow, we are taught, is the first measure of knowing we’ve truly done wrong. If you are *not* conflating the two terms, it seems to me that your argument about knowing deep down that our understanding of right and wrong is incorrect doesn’t wash.
And no, there is no need to feel godly sorrow about the dishes in the sink, or even the goo on the kids. Do you ever feel godly sorrow about the lawn being too long (to take a sexist example)? Sure, it should probably get done, but there’s no need to bring yourself back in line with Christ over it.
Please note that this is a sincere attempt to understand your position, even while feeling feircely protective of Lisa while you potentially exacerbate her condition for the (selfish) satisfaction of your own rhetoric. Definitely something to feel guilty about (and godly sorrow too).
Comment by Athena — June 23, 2005 @ 10:54 am
I’m wondering if Eric has ever felt guilty about these sorts of things:
I feel profoundly guilty for the state my house is in. I feel guilty that I’ve been neglecting this blog. I feel guilty that my kids are eating too much chocolate pudding and watching too much tv and covered in more that usual amount of goo. I feel guilty that my primary activity for the last two weeks has been staring at the ceiling contemplating hopelessness. I feel guilty that my husband calls me every two hours to make sure I’ve held it together. I feel guilty that I want him to do more when he has nothing left to give. I feel guilty that I’m not there for him mentally or emotionally. I feel guilty that my temper simmers so close to the surface that I have to shut myself down completely so that I don’t spend all my time foaming at the mouth.
There is no backdoor to guilt. However hard or desperately we may look for it, there’s only one way out. And that is to do what is right.
This is not , actually, even the way out of Godly sorrow, though of course it might be the end result. The way out of the guiltiness (perhaps a better word, as I see it for a real recognition that we are guilty), is the atonement and reliance on the savior, not pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. But while Christ is our greatest source of strength for overcoming guilt, this is different than what he does to overcome our guiltiness.
Also, I don’t think this is strictly a women’s thing. At times,
I feel profoundly guilty for leaving for work when the house is a mess. I feel guilty that I’ve been neglecting Splendid Sun. I feel guilty that my kids are eating too much chocolate pudding and watching too much tv and covered in more that usual amount of goo because my wife has run out of ideas or is ill and I can’t possibly take time off work. I feel guilty that some of my responsibilities in a student ward bishopric have been staring at the ceiling contemplating hopelessness. I feel guilty that my wife calls me every day to make sure we’re both holding it together. I feel guilty that I my wife NEEDS me to do more when I have nothing left to give. I feel guilty that I’m not there for her mentally or emotionally when she most needs it because I’m exhausted.
Comment by Steve H — June 23, 2005 @ 10:57 am
Also, Eric, since you were compelled to apologize before, during and after your comment, does that mean that you knew all along that it wasn’t the right thing to say/do? Or were these apologies mere lip service?
Comment by Athena — June 23, 2005 @ 11:02 am
Athena,
My apologies were a result of my guess that some would be offended by the comments; I am honestly shocked at the response nonetheless.
As to the previous question, I’m not sure I fully understand: but my response is that godly sorrow is what results when we respond to our guilt humbly. The other form of guilt is what results when we don’t.
Steve,
I agree. Guilt is not a female thing at all. I hope that my comments did not suggest otherwise.
Folks,
I’m realizing it was a very bad idea to use Lisa as an example. I was going to create an imaginary, but similar situation, but got too lazy in the length of the post. Again, please accept my apologies for any offense, it was not intended to be personal but expressive of a larger point. I understand that each particular point of the example is complex and my brief treatment is overly simplistic.
Finally, I am again all too sorry that I expressed these thoughts at all. Admin, go ahead and delete my post. It hurts me to think that I am hurting others.
Instead of listening to me, my I suggest some books that I think speak to this topic and can potentially bring a wealth of peace. These include The Peacegiver, by James Farrell and Bonds that Make Us Free, by Terry Warner. In a little more depth, Works of Love, by Soren Kierkegaard.
Comment by Eric Russell — June 23, 2005 @ 11:18 am
Eric,
I appreciate your insensitive reply filled with one too many apologies as to self-incriminate. I’ve been under the impression that often members of the church (including myself – I hope no one is offended) try to reduce things to this statement, “Do what is right.” It seems so simple. But when I study my scriptures and fumble through the choices of life, doing that simple thing is difficult, and those who claim its simplicity are being moronic.
Admin, please don’t delete this post. I can’t wait to have my husband read it. He’ll probably want to share it in priesthood.
Comment by Christina — June 23, 2005 @ 11:28 am
maybe, eric, we are just mirroring something back to you.
i don’t think you are hurting anyone but rather you exude a condenscending and know-it-all attitude which is difficult to stomach. perhaps this is a chance to understand rather than preach.
Comment by paloma — June 23, 2005 @ 11:28 am
Oh. So they were the “I’m sorry you were offended” type, rather than the “I’m sorry, I was wrong” type. Duly noted.
So you’re arguing that guilt is that first prick of conscience, and ignoring those first pricks is what eventually sends us into the deep dark abyss of ceiling staring. I would agree with you if the guilt were about something like abusing our children or cheating on a spouse. But seriously, over housework?
I sincerely doubt that HF cares whether all the cheerios are picked up off the floor. It is not our schema of right and wrong that is off kilter in these cases, it’s the level of response. Lisa and the rest of us are not arguing that the house should not be at least livable, or that the kids should remain dirty. What is incredible is the AMOUNT of guilt that seems to come from neglecting these things even for a day. Every little thing seems to call into question our worth as women/wives/mothers (with a nod to the male struggle as well, of course), and that just isn’t right.
Comment by Athena — June 23, 2005 @ 11:42 am
I think Eric’s response is symptomatic of what we see a lot. We create this causal fallacy saying depression and guilt come FROM a dirty house or not reading your scriptures or whatever. When really very often those are symptoms, rather than causes. Very often we get in so deep — because of biological imbalances, overwhelming circumstances, or whatever — that we cannot exercise our agency to beautify our surroundings, seek out spiritual experiences, help others and so on. In my opinion those are the times when we the community organized for us through the church and our families must help pull up to a place where our choices actually mean something again. The hard part for a person who is spiraling downward, or at least stagnating at the bottom of the hole, is saying, “Please help me.”
Reducing the whole thing to “do what is right” is not helpful to that person. It’s just another way of saying, “You have to do this yourself.”
Comment by Ana — June 23, 2005 @ 11:45 am
I’ve been wanting to respond to this post, but each time I started to write something I got emotional and wasn’t able to organize my thoughts. Still can’t. Let me just say that I can definitely relate right now, I’m sorry, I hope it gets better, hang in there, every true cliche out there, and man, we really need a FMH day spa day. Or mental hospital day. Something like that.
Comment by Sue M — June 23, 2005 @ 12:26 pm
Spa day!! I’m in.
Comment by Artemis — June 23, 2005 @ 12:58 pm
Let me echo those who have noted that one should never feel guilty for depression. Does God want us to be depressed? No. But he doesn’t want me to be physically ill either, and I shoudln’t have to feel guilty about being ill–though many of us do.
What I think Eric is caught up in is the idea that if we work hard enough we can meet society’s expectations for us. That just isn’t true. If the living room isn’t clean, it may simply be because there isn’t enough time or energy (physical or psychic) to get the thing done. In that case, we don’t ahve to run farther than we have strength, but if we have unrealistic expectations of our strength, that may make us feel guilty, whether or not we are actually guilty. I hope, Eric, that if you ever meet up with something that is too much that you have the wisdom not to want to run faster than you have strength, but our society doesn’t foster such an attitude.
Comment by Steve H — June 23, 2005 @ 1:29 pm
Flippancy aside, I think it is so important to make sure you get some “me” time. As has been pointed out already, if your own needs aren’t being met, it’s that much harder to take care of others, especially clingy, pint-sized others who do need us. And a little pampering now and then does wonders for morale–just don’t feel guilty for wanting it or taking time for it!
I have to say I love being privy to all the insight, wisdom, and friendship that is here. I have learned and healed a lot since finding this place.
Comment by Artemis — June 23, 2005 @ 1:34 pm
Lisa, I also struggle with feeling guilty. I probably appear to most people as a relatively confident, competent person. But like Athena, the guilt has especially become ovewhelming since I’ve been married.
My husband is a superstar human being- a professor, kind, responsible, good Mormon, compassionate, faithful, etc. I’ve completely married above myself, and that guilt eats me up. I’m in no way as good a human being as he is. I’m judgemental and critical, and I don’t have nearly as strong a testimony as he does. It’s that last part that really eats away at me. The feeling that I’m not a good enough Mormon, that he could have done so much better, that I disappoint him every time I mention one of my difficulties with the Church, that I might put his eternal progression in jeopardy because of my issues and angers and worries.
Anyways, I just wanted to let you know that you are by no means alone. I know I need to figure out a way to get rid of the guilt, but have not figured out how to yet. But hearing other women acknowledge it does help.
Comment by Caroline — June 23, 2005 @ 1:55 pm
I don’t think that Eric’s idea — breaking down Lisa’s post point-by-point — is a bad start. But I think he missed the call on most of the points. Here’s how I would answer these, Lisa.
I feel profoundly guilty for the state my house is in
Depends heavily on the situation, but most likely something to feel guilty about.Lisa, the Lord doesn’t care whether your house is Martha-Stewart perfect. As long as there aren’t live electrical wires dangling from the walls, you’re probably just fine. Worry less about houses and more about people. (cf Mary and Martha; see also 900,000 comments at the T & S thread about women and housework).
I feel guilty that I’ve been neglecting this blog
Probably not something to feel guilty about.Don’t give this one a second thought. The blog can rot in cyber-hell as long as you need it to. Your readers will be just fine.
I feel guilty that my kids are eating too much chocolate pudding and watching too much tv and covered in more that usual amount of goo.
Some things are impossible to control when you have lots of young kids, but maybe something to feel somewhat guilty about.Kids are kids. Smile at ‘em and give ‘em a big hug. Goo is normal.
I feel guilty that my primary activity for the last two weeks has been staring at the ceiling contemplating hopelessness.
Definitely something to feel guilty about.This is not something to feel guilty about, Lisa. However, it is something you need to fix.
If you come down with the flu, you don’t feel guilty that you’re coughing. You go take some medicine and get some bed rest.
You have depression now. Don’t feel guilty about it, that’s just silly. But do get help.
I feel guilty that my husband calls me every two hours to make sure I’ve held it together.
Depending on the cause for such actions, probably something to feel guilty about.Your husband loves you. He’s concerned about you. Don’t feel guilty about that. Do work on overcoming this, so that he’s not calling you every two hours.
Regarding the appropriateness of feeling guilty over depression, see above.
I feel guilty that I want him to do more when he has nothing left to give.
Definitely something to feel guilty about.Not worth guilt. (See above, re depression). But also not a good recipe for long-term success. Another reason to get some help.
I feel guilty that I’m not there for him mentally or emotionally.
Definitely something to feel guilty about.This one is trickier. Absent reasonable excuse, you should be there for your husband. And he for you. That’s what marriage is about.
But you have depression. And that’s a pretty good excuse.
However, this isn’t a particularly healthy marital configuration over the long run, so please get help.
I feel guilty that my temper simmers so close to the surface that I have to shut myself down completely so that I don’t spend all my time foaming at the mouth.
Definitely something to feel guilty about.Well, yes, you shouldn’t let your temper control you. On the other hand, it sounds like you’re working on that. You’re shutting down rather than throwing things, and that’s a positive step. Just keep moving in the right direction.
I feel too guilty to demand that dh take some days off work so I can go to a doctor or check myself into a mental hospital.
May or may not be something to feel guilty about.Don’t be silly. Your situation is not your fault. But it is also not sustainable over the long term. If you broke your arm, would you feel guilty about going to the hospital?
Or go to my mother’s to lock myself in the cold dark basement for a week.
Absolutely something to feel guilty about.Absolutely not something to feel guilty about. Why on earth you think you should feel guilty about being depressed is beyond me. This is a sickness, now go get it treated already.
Comment by Kaimi — June 23, 2005 @ 2:36 pm
Oops, I missed a close-strikeout in that prior post. The first one should read:
I feel profoundly guilty for the state my house is in
Depends heavily on the situation, but most likely something to feel guilty about.Lisa, the Lord doesn’t care whether your house is Martha-Stewart perfect. As long as there aren’t live electrical wires dangling from the walls, you’re probably just fine. Worry less about houses and more about people. (cf Mary and Martha; see also 900,000 comments at the T & S thread about women and housework).
Comment by Kaimi — June 23, 2005 @ 2:37 pm
From what I know of Lisa, she’d want this thread to be about good thinking, not just about an I’m-okay-you’re-okay love-fest. Let’s not jump all over Eric just because he’s not warm and fuzzy; let’s respond reasonably to his claims.
Lisa, if you’re where you are because of mental health issues, I’m so sorry, and I hope you’re able to get them under control. Mental health problems, although I don’t suffer from them, are one of the hardest things for me to deal with spiritually, since they seem to make sheer nonsense of bedrock principles of the gospel, like agency, sin and virtue, choice and accountabiity.
But if this isn’t about mental health, then I think guilt (or godly sorrow, whatever you want to call it; I personally think they’re the same thing, since nobody has presented a coherent distinction between the two, other than that “guilt” is when we don’t like what it tells us to do and “godly sorrow” is when we do) is getting short shrift here.
We feel guilt when we don’t meet our obligations. But without guilt–that is, without obligation–we could never feel the profound and deeply satisfying sense of peace and worth that comes from meeting one’s obligations. Duty gets a really bad name way too often: doing something “out of a sense of duty” seems to mean doing it half-heartedly, as if it didn’t really count, or was worse than not doing it at all. But duty gives my life meaning, plain and simple, especially since I’ve become a mother: in all honesty, I don’t get a lot of personal pleasure out of doing things for or with kids—being a preschool or elementary school teacher would be *below* janitor on my list of desired jobs—but meeting my obligations to my family provide me with a daily dose of peace, relief, satisfaction, meaning, and profound contentment.
Without the possibility of guilt, I wouldn’t have the possibility for that sort of happiness, so for this reason I’m really grateful that guilt exists.
Like I said, if you’re not processing guilt normally or are imagining for yourself non-existent obligations about which to feel guilty, then these are mental health issues, and I hope and pray you can work them out. But otherwise, guilt is the natural inverse of satsifaction, and as such has an important niche in emotional ecology.
Comment by Rosalynde — June 23, 2005 @ 2:51 pm
Folks,
Some great questions and responses here. If you would like to discuss them, email me at cratchit at gmail dot com, and I would love to continue the conversation. But I cannot in good conscience add fuel to a fire that’s already way too hot. I really am sorry for causing such a disturbance; it won’t happen again.
Comment by Eric Russell — June 23, 2005 @ 3:04 pm
Please go check out the Flylady website. You’ll be glad you did.
Comment by Anony-mouse — June 23, 2005 @ 3:06 pm
Also, Lisa, it’s hard to get good cheese from your mother’s cold, dark basement. Especially if you lock the door. Stay out of there. There’s still so much good cheese in the world.
Comment by Ana — June 23, 2005 @ 3:56 pm
As someone who suffered from major depression and received treatment, both counseling and medication, I think it is safe to say that you could use some help. I didn’t go in for help until my spouse talked me into it, and even then, I wasn’t sure what good it would do. And to be honest, it helped a lot.
It helped that the pyschologist wasn’t LDS and so their approach wasn’t to deal with godly sorrow vs. guilt, or what a good Mormon spouse is supposed to do, or whether I’m active in church, or whether I’m serving others. It was all about me. What was I thinking, feeling, doing? How was this a behavioral pattern developed from childhood, adolescence, etc?
Surprisingly, although I don’t blame my parents for how I’ve developed, a lot of my behavioral patterns with my spouse were mimicing those of my parents’ relationship. Monkey see, monkey do. But becoming aware of those patterns and my natural hesitancy to assert myself helped me to change that behavior.
Now, I don’t need the meds and I haven’t been to counseling in a long time. But having the 2 months, once a week, to talk to someone who just cared about helping me get better, and wasn’t tied up in all the other relationships in my life (church, school, work, whatever), made all the difference.
Get some help. You deserve it. And if you can, make sure the help comes from someone outside your circle of relationships, because then they can look at things objectively, rather than discounting what you think or feel because they know your husband, bishop, mother, father, in-laws, boss, children, etc.
Comment by Anonymous and sympathetic — June 23, 2005 @ 4:01 pm
Rosalynde,
Lisa is staring at the ceiling for weeks, shutting herself off, and she wants to lock herself in a basement for a week. Also, she is aware that she needs help (hence the guilt about it).
I realize that the diagnosing mental health problems from a blog post is fraught with potential problems, but I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that Lisa’s problems are not those of someone who is fully mentally healthy.
Comment by Kaimi — June 23, 2005 @ 4:14 pm
rosalynde
my response to eric wasn’t simply a reaction to the fact that he wasn’t warm and fuzzy. and i don’t see this dialogue as an I’m-okay-you’re-okay love-fest.
eric’s comments, in my mind, did not offer claims which would further the dialogue but were simply an arrogant analysis of what she should feel.
if you thrive in feeling guilty or in feeling a sense of duty–all the power to you. but the guilt i’m reading in amy’s post is not the type of guilt you or eric are referring to–it goes beyond the normal day to day guilt and therefore it seems like it is a discussion comparing apples and oranges to me.
From what I know of Lisa, she’d want this thread to be about good thinking, not just about an I’m-okay-you’re-okay love-fest. Let’s not jump all over Eric just because he’s not warm and fuzzy; let’s respond reasonably to his claims.
Comment by paloma — June 23, 2005 @ 4:39 pm
Just want to second comment #42 by Anonymous and sympathetic. I’ve suffered from depression since my teen years, and the only thing that helped me get it under control was going to see a therapist. Just having that 1 hour a week (or every-other-week) devoted to me looking at my behavior and feelings kept me from burying them and letting them build up until they resulted in me lying in bed staring at the ceiling. And someone outside the church was the right choice for me as well. When you’ve reached the point where you can’t get out of bed, it’s especially hard to pick up that phone and make an appointment or find a doctor, but it’s when you need to do it. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF or you won’t be able to take care of your family the way you want to and need to.
Comment by Marian — June 23, 2005 @ 5:06 pm
My heavens.
I would love to flick some of you folks in the nose.
Lisa, can I join you? I feel almost identically.
The basement sounds good to me. Nice & quiet!
Comment by Lisa M — June 23, 2005 @ 6:13 pm
Rosalynde said: “Mental health problems, although I don’t suffer from them, are one of the hardest things for me to deal with spiritually, since they seem to make sheer nonsense of bedrock principles of the gospel, like agency, sin and virtue, choice and accountabiity. ”
Can we talk about this? W/ mental illness in my extended family this has been a HUGE issue for me.
Comment by LisaB — June 23, 2005 @ 7:15 pm
You have describe what I felt when I had post partum depression.
It is not normal.
WIth my third child I tried medication. Medication was not perfect, but it was IMMENSELY helpful. Consider medication ASAP. If this is your life, then take action.
Comment by jks — June 23, 2005 @ 7:27 pm
I’m new to the site and to you, Lisa, so I don’t know if you’re the sort who reads poetry for fun (though I did see and enjoy your ode to cheese, lol!). But I’m a nerdy girl who finds it oddly therapeutic.
Jane Kenyon’s Having It Out With Melancholy strikes me as relevant to this discussion (I’ve struggled myself against the sentiment in section 3).
I’ve been there; sometimes I still am there. I hope you feel better soon.
Comment by RCH — June 23, 2005 @ 10:08 pm
Yep, I’m in for a Lisa’s-mother’s-basement weekend. Sounds great.
I confess that being in the middle of packing and moving, puking/crapping kids, a daughter with an attachment disorder, a cranky husband, and 4 children, one of whom is teething, is not my happy place.
And I totally get it. Sometimes being a mother/wife/adult sucks and we feel guilty. I am in the depths of guilt most of the time. I worked hard to become a mother (4 adoptions, w of them from foster care), but I often really don’t enjoy it.
Kerri
Comment by Kerri — June 23, 2005 @ 10:21 pm
Wow Eric, testosterone poisoned, ersatz intellectuals really are dull and they have many other qualities too: arrogance, insensitivity, vulgarity to name a few. Thanks for the demo.
Comment by Kwan Yee — June 24, 2005 @ 6:48 am
Sonnet,
I’ve been thinking about your comments in #10, about the apparent Mormon imperative for the women to be more selfless than the men. I think there’s some truth to that and I think it’s some weird combination of angel-fying (is that a word?) women we knew or know because we do love them and appreciate their sacrifices (at least somewhat) and the culture, maybe subconciously, starts thinking that that’s how the “Ideal” woman ought to be. I think it’s also a case of, the more you do, the more people will expect.
Another factor is that women ARE expected to be the primary child-care nurturer and academic and professional careers seem to many to distract from that expectation. You can always argue that a man’s advanced degree and career commitments are selflessly in pursuit of providing for his family, and therefore more laudable. I think this has been changing a bit in the last while, at least in regards to education, thanks both to the feminist movement (the horror!) and to people buying into the idea that the mother is almost always the most influential influence on a young, developing, impressionable child. And because the Brigham Young Manual has Brigham’s quote saying that he’d rather have a woman educated than a man because the woman can do more with it by shaping her children. He also said that women would be just as good, if not better, lawyers, doctors, etc.
But to the point, all these expectations on top of the pedestrian, but rampant, “be ye therefore as perfect as you have the humanly capacity to be” conflation of the gospel, can present us an impossible SuperSister/Woman ideal we sometimes think we have to live up to. And, to top it all off, our identities become hidden by our relationship to our DHs and children. So, maybe we do have more than our average share of guilt. But I don’t think it’s the gospel (or God) that’s asking it of us.
And therein lies the escape. If you focus on your relationship with God and what the gospel actually IS, then you can toss all those cultural expectations into your mental incinerator and wean any hyperactive guilt glands on to a diet of things that truly right and wrong; nothing more, nothing less. And if someone tries to load you down with some extra expectation or guilt, you can bite your thumb at them and give them the “go to hell” attitude. Or, if your nicer than me, just the “I’m so sorry for you, but you’re so deluded” attitude. Personally I think it might be helpful to tell the messy living room to ‘go to hell’ every once in awhile and get yourself out on a hike, w/ or w/o the kids, but that’s me.
My point is, don’t give your guilt more food than it needs. Don’t buy into extra expectations–be who you are, who you want to be, take time for a balanced life, and enjoy life. And remember, there is incredible power in occassionally swimming upstream.
p.s. I disagree that depression is more rampant among LDS women than in the general population. The reports of “studies” make a lot of assumptions–such as since Utah is “mostly” LDS, therefore the “high” Prozac rate is due to x, y, & z expectations from the LDS church–and they don’t take into consideration other factors or explanations–such as, maybe LDS women have a better support system that helps them recognize depression and encourages them to get help for it, which could lead to greater prescription drug use, or that non-LDS women are finding other outlets for their depression, such as drinking. If you want more info., I can give you some sources.
Comment by Artemis — June 24, 2005 @ 9:16 am
Do I talk too much?
Comment by Artemis — June 24, 2005 @ 9:21 am
nope, you don’t. well said, Artemis.
Comment by mindy — June 24, 2005 @ 9:36 am
Lisa
Whatever it is, you do need help. And depression is common and very real and you can have PPD LONG after you have a baby and not even realise it. You dont’ have to feel guilty becuase you are terrific in so many ways, but if these feelings are continuing then do something about.
I haven’t personally struggled with depression but I have a brother who is clinically depressed and I have friends who have been there. It is very real and needs help. No one HAS to feel this way, there are things that can be done.
I have to disagree that mental health issues make nonsense of spiritual things. Everyone is given challenges, and mental issues are some challenges that people can face. A book called Nutrition and Mental Illness really makes sense of what many are dealing with. It’s definitely worth a look. Mental Illness is very real, very sad and can be helped.
Not that I am saying YOU are necessarily struggling with mental illness Lisa, but if this is a real depression then you need to get some help for it. It may only take exercise and a different outlook, it may take something more.
Comment by Mary Siever — June 24, 2005 @ 11:06 am
In response to Artemis’ idea that perhaps LDS women are more likely to receive treatment for depression due to a greater support network, etc., there may be some sense in that. I don’t know whether or not there is a significant difference in depression rates between LDS and non-LDS women. I would argue that the higher rate of Prozac prescriptions in Utah is more likely due to an LDS mentality that depression is more likely to be caused by chemical imbalances which can be addressed by medication, than by altering one’s choices and behaviors.
I think this is the case, in part, because a majority of doctors in Utah are probably LDS, and as every good LDS soul knows, living the Gospel brings joy, so if you assume that Church-going patients are keeping the commandments, then any depression must be caused by a physical problem which is not addressed by living the Gospel. *any drops of something from this statement are probably sarcasm and/or cynicism*
This is why I was glad to have a non-LDS doctor treating me. He was able to look at things and say “This is an unrealistic behavior” or “This isn’t how healthy adults function.” As members of the Church, we are taught that our problems will go away or be put in perspective if we just get out and serve other people. (Raise your hand if you’ve heard this one before?!) And that just isn’t necessarily true! We are taught to be obedient, faithful, humble, ignore doubts, smother criticism, submit our will to authority, and otherwise neglect our feelings, desires, emotions, and many things which make us feel different, unique, capable, independent and emotionally healthy.
I may agree that the most important work that can be done is within the walls of your own home, but that doesn’t mean that it is the only work I can do, nor that at any given time I am better suited for it than my spouse, or vice versa.
As for the medication vs. counseling decision, I can’t say I felt any huge changes from the medication, but I do know that I felt better after counseling and paying attention to what I was doing and how I was reacting to situations around me. One of the questions the counselor asked was something along the lines of “What was the last thing you did for yourself?” That’s when it hit me that I hadn’t done anything for myself in a long time. Even eating, working, school, etc. was always with an eye towards how it would help my family and what effect what I was doing was going to have on my family.
Comment by Anonymous and sympathetic — June 24, 2005 @ 11:30 am
I’d just like to chime in about guilt for a second. For much of my life, I have battled a debilitating eating disorder. Essentially, I feel horribly guilty whenever I eat anything. So, in my case, and probably in Lisa’s, guilt is not about disatisfaction. It’s about never being able to measure up to society’s unattainable expectations, and feeling completely inadequate and disgusting.
Thank goodness there are lots of people out there who never have to struggle with such debilitating guilt, and therefore don’t understand it. But it’s important to be sympathetic, even if you don’t understand why someone is in so much pain and why they struggle endlessly over a seemingly insignificant issue.
Lisa - I hope you feel better soon. If you need a vacation, you’re more than welcome to stay with me for awhile. We’ll go out to dinner, stay up late talking, and laugh about how silly and wonderful and how difficult life is. Hang in there.
Comment by Tess — June 24, 2005 @ 11:56 am
Awwww Paloma ,
O.K. I shouldn’t have said that to eric. …and just when I finally found a good use of the word f***tard too. :p
Comment by Kwan Yee — June 24, 2005 @ 11:58 am
kwan,
actually that last paragraph from my post was pasted from rosalynde’s post–sorry about the confusion. i was trying to address what she had said in her post but forgot to delete it.
so, actually, i agree with you completely
paloma
Comment by paloma — June 24, 2005 @ 12:10 pm
I grew up in a non-member home where we “pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps” when things seemed a little more than we could handle. At the time the persistent dark feelings seemed normal, the way things just must be for everyone.
I got out, grew up a little, and joined the church. I met a great LDS guy, full of life and happy to be with me. We got engaged and life seemed a little brighter. He was in a doctorate program at the time we met.
Someone in his family let it slip that he had at one point dropped out, and then another family member let it slip that he had dropped out twice. We talked about it and I found out that he had undergone profound depression in the midst of his two dropouts - I am embarassed to say I didn’t even really know what depression was, let alone understand what drugs like prozac were for.
I started doing more research on what depression actually was. My mother had been clinically depressed for years and I had battled it constantly, but in our family system, no one spoke about depression because it was seen as a weakness, not a medical issue.
Would you deny yourself medical treatment for diabetes or cancer? How about chronic pain? Would you feel guilty seeking medical treatment if your arm was broken?
Guilt and depression are two completely different topics. How they have somehow been fused together in this post shows that people need further education on what depression is and how to seek help.
Comment by sistermadly — June 24, 2005 @ 1:33 pm
Wow, upon re-reading, my post seems a little cold. Hey Lisa, I am sending cyber hugs, too. xoxox Hang in there girl. Nature teaches us many things, not the least of which is that no matter how dark the night is, daylight always breaks.
Comment by sistermadly — June 24, 2005 @ 1:37 pm
Sistermadly,
I think most of us have actually been trying to separate the two, but they tend to occur in tandem, which is maybe it looks like we’re fusing them.
Comment by Artemis — June 24, 2005 @ 2:09 pm
I haven’t finished reading all the responses yet. I would like to say though, that when I was young and stupid and had never experienced post-partum depression I thought a lot like Eric too. (I probaby wouldn’ve never posted it, but I would’ve thought it) I only wish I’d been more aware of my own ignorance, it’s embarassing to think back on. Eric may just grow up too, or maybe not, it may not be easy, but it is possible.
As enlightened as I’m trying to be about depression, it’s embarrassing to admit that I am struggling with the idea of seeking help. I’ve never been on anti-depressants before, and some misguided part of me still thinks that conceeding would be a sign of weakness.
I’m also stuggling because I’ve not felt this way long. A few weeks ago I was sitting with my bestest friend T, and said with all sincerity that I was okay, happy even, emotionally steady and sound. And I was.
So I keep thinking, if this came on so fast, can’t it just slip away again just as fast, and how long do I hold on to see if it’s going to happen.
But today I’ve decided I need to go to a doctor because I just realized that this periodic chest tightness, feel like I can’t breathe, lump in my throat, might just be me having panic attacks. I get them every time I think about how dirty my house is and how big that stack of bills is or contemplate trying to get us all presentable enough to leave the house.
My doc is out of town (wouldn’t you know it) but as soon as she’s back I’ll let you know how it goes. Unless this clears up on its own first.
Comment by fMhLisa — June 24, 2005 @ 2:10 pm
Lisa, I recently posted at the nauvoo forum on a similar issue I had experienced. I excerpted several quotes from an April 2005 Ensign article entitled “A Balanced Life”. You’re not alone. Here are the quotes:
I was glad the article admitted that a lot of people who are trying to do everything right can still feel like dirt. However, the solution presented in the article really ticked me off. It’s the last bold quote. Her problems are her fault because she isn’t allowing the Atonement to do its work in her life. In other words, even though this woman was doing everything the Church told her to do, she was still doing something wrong and that’s why she was depressed.
Honestly, I wish the Church would start teaching grace as much as it teaches works. The idea that you don’t have to work your way to heaven would do wonders for us perfectionists who end up with depression.
Comment by Melinda (Janey) — June 24, 2005 @ 3:06 pm
And folks, Eric Russell is not the devil incarnate. He’s been through depression himself. He’s developed some ideas and theories that helped him, and his post was an attempt to share that. Depression can be highly individual, so what helps one person won’t help everyone, but it’s good to have a lot of different viewpoints to consider. See a brief discussion at Millennial Star. Eric’s suggestion to analyze the guilt and see whether or not it is valid is actually a helpful exercise later in the healing process. At this point, where Lisa is just beginning to recognize that she may have a problem it’s not much use. But I’ve had depression too (I comment in the M* thread as “Janey”), and you do eventually have to sit down and really analyze your thinking and decide what’s valid and what isn’t. Just not right now.
Comment by Melinda (Janey) — June 24, 2005 @ 3:16 pm
Melinda,
Hum, well, I think they phrased it badly, but I agree with the concept that the Atonement was made, in part, to make up for our weaknesses. In fact, I think that gets to the essence of grace (not often enough taught, I grant)–because it is Christ’s grace and infinite love that makes the Atonement work. I would think of it more in terms of He’s offering his hand to help us, waiting for us to realize we don’t need to do everything ourselves. I don’t think He’s displeased, exactly, but He would like us to be happy, trust in Him, and not be so hard on ourselves. I think it was when I finally realized that I didn’t have to be perfect, that I could live my life normally while trying (if not always succeeding) to be Christlike, that I was able to let go of perfectionism and guilt. Sure I still feel bad when I do something wrong, but I’m not weighed down by the balance sheet of my sins vs. my righteous acts. I just do my best and keep going.
I guess what it comes down to is we sometimes try to give ourselves too much work when the Savior’s already done the work. All he wants is a willing heart and I think most of us have that.
Comment by Artemis — June 24, 2005 @ 3:27 pm
To clarify–I don’t think it’s a ’sin of omission’ to be trying too hard or feeling guilty over everything–it’s just part of the learning process. Therefore, we are not doing something wrong because we’re doing everything the Church tells us to do and still having issues with guilt or depression or whatever. I think it’s just one of those pains or sorrows of mortality and Christ has felt it and made up for it. We just have to see the cradle for what it is.
I think I’m not making any sense….
Comment by Artemis — June 24, 2005 @ 3:39 pm
Okay, I’ve finally read through ALL the comments. Wow. Where to start.
I wish I could address everything more carefully, but I can’t so I’m just going to throw my thoughts out there semi-formed.
Guilt. Hum.
I do suspect there is something chemically wrong with me, simply because I was basically happy two weeks ago, and now I can barely function (although it’s a little better today) (although I wrote that and then got a sinking/chocking feeling deep in my chest). My life is good. My kids are healthy, my husband is as near to perfect as ever a man was, I’m not in danger of going hungry any time soon, I’ve got a great support network. So this oppressive overwhelming sadness is probably chemical depression. We’ll see.
However, I do agree with Rosalynd in the respect that I think a discussion about when guilt is or is not merited is a worthy subject.
I also agree in some respects with Eric that we really should feel guilt over some things. I think he’s totally jacked up in the way he presented it here, and I think many of his fundemental assumptions are flawed. But I do agree that sometimes guilt serves a purpose. I won’t hold anyone to being warm and fuzzy. But I will hold you to making sound arguments. And I just think that many of the assumptions under Eric’s post were unsound.
I’d like to go into more detail about why, but I can’t right now. Someday, I hope.
Also. Thank you everyone for the outpouring of support. I can’t tell you how much peace FMH has brought me. It’s a gift to have someplace to be honest about these things.
Comment by fMhLisa — June 24, 2005 @ 4:06 pm
Lisa, you may or may not need meds. Don’t let that keep you out of a professional’s office. Sometimes you just need some catharsis, and I’ve found that comes so much easier talking to an outside party, rather than trying to explain things to someone with a personal stake in your life. Go, do the thing, and then worry about the treatment plan.
Comment by Ana — June 24, 2005 @ 4:06 pm
Go Lisa! I have felt exactly what you’re feeling, and it is clinical depression. Pulling yourself up by your bootstraps is not going to work here. It makes you tired/guilty to even think about it.
Meds may work, and they helped to get me jumpstarted, but I was uber sensitive to the side effects, so if you are the type that is sensitive to drugs, you may want to ask your doctor to be careful about the one he/she prescribes.
Counseling will help, too, but I know insurance doesn’t always cover that, and it can get expensive. But if you can do it, it’s well worth the effort. Not only will it help you now, but it will help you to recognize the warning signs, so that you can start helping yourself before you get to the point of non functioning.
Finally, I know you said your husband has given more than his fair share, but priesthood blessings are very helpful in this situation. Supremely. They do not take the place of other treatment, but I counted on them a ton, and they were so great, I can’t even tell you. The Lord knows of your situation, and He cares about it. (I’m even saying this with the knowledge that people may attack me for being warm and fuzzy)
Good luck. It’ll take some time, but it will run its course.
Comment by The Wiz — June 24, 2005 @ 4:40 pm
Lisa - I did meds, but not therapy. I read a lot of books instead. These two were the most helpful for me personally:
Feeling Good, The New Mood Therapy by Dr. David Burns.
How to Win Over Depression by Rev. Tim Lahaye
Comment by Melinda — June 24, 2005 @ 5:22 pm
Caroline, I struggle with the feeling that I’ve married above myself, as well. It’s hard.
I have felt every emotion that Lisa expressed for the very same things. I don’t think guilt is an entirely female emotion, but it does seem that women have a huge load.
Artemis, you cracked me up. I always worry that I’ve said too much.
And Feeling Good, that book has helped me. Cognitive therapy works, when I have the energy to work it.
Comment by annegb — June 25, 2005 @ 8:42 am
Hi Lisa,
Longtime reader, second-time poster. I have been exactly in your shoes–the anger waiting right in your throat, the staring at the ceiling while the kids tear the house down around you (and I have 6), wondering why why why was I feeling this way when I had an awesome dh, beautiful, smart children, and good health along with a glut of other blessings. I also felt like it was something I should be able to figure out on my own, like I was being weak. I had always been able to control the anger, the sadness, the apathy by just shoving it down, but I couldn’t any more and I was expecting a new baby (born in January).
I started out with counseling because I knew I had some issues (I know an awesome female counselor in Boise), and she asked me to commit to three months of anti-depressants (Lexapro). I reluctantly agreed, only because I respected her so much, and oh my gosh–I had forgotten what it felt like to feel good! The anger is gone, which takes away most of my misplaced guilt. Not seeing everything thru a veil of anger makes all the difference in the world. It is not perfect–I still don’t have the drive I used to before clinical depression, but now I feel like I can manage.
I have changed my mind about meds–having experienced first-hand how they can help. If you would like the name of the counselor in Boise, or just support from someone close by, please email me.
Comment by Idahospud — June 25, 2005 @ 8:44 am
Caroline, I struggle with the feeling that I’ve married above myself, as well. It’s hard.
I have felt every emotion that Lisa expressed for the very same things. I don’t think guilt is an entirely female emotion, but it does seem that women have a huge load. I know my husband struggles with depression and guilt, as well, but not as much as I do…or most of my friends. I cannot think of one friend who has not struggled with guilt and depression, not one.
Then I was thinking: “oh, Melinda is Janey, who is giving up everything and contemplating Christ…and she has a wife named Wendy?”
Artemis, you cracked me up. I always worry that I’ve said too much.
And Feeling Good, that book has helped me. Cognitive therapy works, when I have the energy to work it.
Sometimes I just ride it out. With prozac, of course. I listen to my prozac and defy anybody to say a word. But you know, honestly, that thing that Janey said, that helps, about just not doing so much. Some other place, where said it, I mean.
Comment by annegb — June 25, 2005 @ 9:05 am
I guess the question about the impact of mental health on the gospel comes from scriptures like the NT one about God has given us the spirit of peace, and of a sound mind. That kind of thing. The idea that living the gospel brings happiness. That the atonement is for not only sins, but also other hurts, disappointments, griefs, sorrows, and difficulties. So if someone who is depressed turns to Christ with that burden, but that is not sufficient, does that not seem to call into question the power of the atonement?
Comment by LisaB — June 26, 2005 @ 6:27 pm
LisaB - yes, it does. Scary question, isn’t it.
The hardest part about my depression was fearing that God had abandoned me. We teach that Christ understands all our pain, but how could he understand the fear that God has left us alone? He is God.
Read Psalm 22. It’s the one that Christ relies on when God abandons him. Listen to how well it describes depression. (Note - I’m paraphrasing)
Christ felt that when God abandoned him on the cross. Christ understands depression.
In the midst of depression, I felt so filthy and guilty I could understand why God would abandon me. I was too awful for him to stay with me. But that isn’t true:
Christ is not repelled by depression. Even if we feel abhorrent, Christ does not abhor us. The Atonement can reach depression.
Comment by Melinda — June 26, 2005 @ 7:24 pm
What I felt during my “depression” (post-partum) could easily be described as feeling like guilt. I hated myself. I felt horrible for things I did or things I didn’t do. The “guilt” type of feeling was not appropriate for what was actually going on, but felt like guilt.
It even PHYSICALLY felt like guilt sometimes. You know, the sick feeling in your stomach when you have done something irreversible….like crash the car or forgot your sister’s birthday party or committed a sin. I felt that way over all the little things in life, several times a day.
Medication helped me (the 3rd time around). I know counseling has helped many people. I wish I knew a good counselor.
Comment by JKS — June 28, 2005 @ 8:01 pm
Melinda: Hmm… Perhaps you meant to be reassuring, but I think saying that the atonement can reach depression is actually discouraging and damning. Can the atonement also reach cancer or other physical ailments (since, after all, Jesus has power over health and life as well)? I think the problem is that while we acknowledge God’s power to heal physical illnesses, we also seldom blame people for lack of faith when they are not healed. Instead, we say it’s God’s will in that particular instance. But with mental illness (which is also physical), there seems to be a different standard. I would not go to my bishop to have a bone set. I also would not go to a bishop for counseling or psychiatric meds. They are simply not (generally) trained counselors. And too often mix in or mistakenly attribute spiritual causes to things like depression.
Comment by LisaB — June 29, 2005 @ 9:06 am
LisaB,
I have not seen a different standard with mental illnesses in the church, nor have I seen anybody attribute depression to a spiritual cause, deficiency, or sin; and I do not think anyone with any clear understanding of the gospel would blame anyone else for such a condition. I do NOT think saying that the Atonement reaches depression is in anyway discouraging or damning. In fact, I see it as the exact opposite. What we do understand of the Atonement is that the Savior suffered for all our sins, sorrows, and pains and that he conquered the effects of both sin and death (and I think any physcial, mortal issue can be lumped in with death). Anybody who received a body is automatically redeemed / rescued from all ailments physical and the Savior also experienced every feeling any of us has experienced. I do not believe that anybody is held accountable for any mental or physical condition or disability, including depression, chemical imbalances, etc. There’s no judgement against someone having those conditions, otherwise you could argue that God gave you those conditions and was therefore ultimately the one “accountable’ for them. In fact, I suspect that even any “sin” committed under the influence of those conditions will be seriously mitigated.
The Atonement reaches, redeems, and comforts the innocent as well as the guilty.
Comment by Artemis — June 29, 2005 @ 9:45 am
Seeking guidance for a difficult situation (like depression, or any other difficult time as described in the OP) is a good thing to do. Pray. Research options. See what seems to be the best course. Pray some more. Learn some more.
For some, professional counseling may be the best course. For some medication is necessary. For some, it is something else.
Whatever is needed, praying for guidance while trying to figure things out is what always helps me.
Comment by jks — June 29, 2005 @ 3:43 pm
Artemis–I think it’s great that you haven’t seen the stigma against mental illness impact people’s judgements about spiritual issues. I do think things are improving, but still I’ve seen it many times. I agree that it isn’t a prejudice unique to the church. But so much more hurtful and potentially damaging when in comes through those who profess to be followers of Christ–particularly church teachers and leaders (local and general).
The issue of depression is complicated by the fact that sin does cause us to feel guilt and depression (if we are still not “past feeling”). It does not necessarily follow, however, that anyone who is unhappy or feels guilt or depression feels that way because of sin (beyond the general fact that we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God).
I think spiritual discernment in the affirmative can be equally complicated if overly equated with emotionalism.
Comment by LisaB — June 30, 2005 @ 11:08 am
Lisa B,
I don’t know what you mean by this:
But I agree with everything else. And I absolutely think there’s a distinction between what the gospel actually is and how people interpret it, judge others by their own interpretation or lack of understanding, etc.
Maybe we were talking at cross-purposes over what it means to say that the Atonement reaches depression.
Comment by Artemis — June 30, 2005 @ 11:18 am
Well, first of all, I hope this is not a threadjack and I also wanted to check in w/ fmhLisa to ask how are you doing before launching into more peripheral discussion. Sometimes moral support alone goes a long way (one of the best possible features of blogs!).
Artemis: I meant the issue of spiritual discernment is complicated by the fact that while in-tune-ness can often result in a heightened emotional state (a la testimony meetings), it does not necessarily follow that anyone in a heightened emotional state is necessarily “feeling the Spirit.” I am embarassed to admit that in the past I believed that being more emotional was a sign of greater spirituality. I’m still untangling implications of that erroneous idea.
At any rate, that’s probably a whole ‘nother topic, and given our discussion here, it may have been more appropriate to say that the issue of happiness/well-being/mental health/contentedness is complicated by the fact that while obedience does help us “feel good,” it does not necessarily follow that anyone who “feels good” is being obedient/righteous, or even “more righteous” than someone who is depressed. Or even more pointedly, that the issue of guilt is complicated by the fact that while sin causes us to feel guilty, and repentance causes guilt to be ameliorated (”washed away”), that does not necessarily mean that anyone who feels guilty is necessarily guilty or unrepentant, nor that repentance is the needed solution.
Cross-purposes as far as the atonement discussion goes? Maybe. My main purpose is to support those who feel that their emotional or mental health issues have been misjudged by others as spiritual issues. (Lisa’s mother’s assumption in the OP.) To me, discussion of the atonement comes in when people misjudge the cause of guilty feelings, sadness, depression, anxiety, etc., or assume that just because the atonement has been said to additionally cover hurts and etc not related to one’s own sins, that appealing to Christ is the sole acceptable source of healing for all hurts and sorrows we feel (hence my discussion of medical healing), that using other resources is a sign of lack of faith, and that anyone still hurting is clearly not relying on the atonement completely (like the article quoted by Melinda above).
Here’s an example: a relative of mine was struggling with an eating disorder. Her singles’ ward bishop (a medical doctor!) assumed that this must be a “symptom” of some kind of hidden sin, and started her on a “repentance path.” You can guess that that did not help her eating disorder. It also did not help her testimony.
Recently Elder Scott has taught also that the Atonement can heal completely, including depression. He has specifically discussed depression in conjunction with abuse survivors, and did offer that counseling “might” be helpful to some, but emphasized that long-term counseling should not be necessary because of the power of the Atonement (2002 conf I believe). I remember other statements about us (collectively) needing less psychology and more righteousness. Perhaps true, but not helpful to those needing psychologists or other mental health professionals.
It is because of these complicating factors that I agree with Annonymous and Sympathetic’s opinion regarding the advantages of having a non-LDS counselor, good intentions of LDS social services notwithstanding (#56).
On a tangential note, you said “Anybody who received a body is automatically redeemed / rescued from all ailments physical and the Savior also experienced every feeling any of us has experienced. I do not believe that anybody is held accountable for any mental or physical condition or disability, including depression, chemical imbalances, etc. There’s no judgement against someone having those conditions, otherwise you could argue that God gave you those conditions and was therefore ultimately the one “accountable’ for them. In fact, I suspect that even any “sin” committed under the influence of those conditions will be seriously mitigated.”
I agree overall. I disagree that we are automatically rescued. I disagree that the Savior experienced every feeling any of us has experienced. If that were the case, he would not be sinless (as just one objection). I disagree that there is NO judgement against individuals with disabilities or conditions like we are discussing, or no one in the world could be judged at all. I believe we are all judged, but these factors are taken into consideration. I am interested to hear Rosalynde’s take on mental illness and accountability given her comment about it early on.
Comment by LisaB — June 30, 2005 @ 4:24 pm
Hmm… sorry if I killed this one with “much speaking”
Comment by LisaB — July 6, 2005 @ 7:01 pm
Lisa,
It was just such a good post that nobody had anything further to say.
Actually, I did want to follow up on one or two things. You say:
That’s actually the substance of what I was trying to say earlier, so… I disagree that we disagree, but I totally agree with your point.
You also say:
I disagree, though with the clarification mentioned above. My understanding of the gospel is that mortality, including death and all mortal “ills” are automatically covered by the Atonement. We did not cause death or sickness to enter the world, so we are not responsible in any way for them. I also think the Savior did experience every feeling we have felt, including guilt, even though he was guiltless. He felt it by proxy, in some way incomphrensible to us now, just as it is incomprehensible to us exactly how his suffering and sacrifce actually redeem us from death and hell. But he did feel it and he knows perfectly how to succor us, whatever situation we’re in. That, to me, is one of the most beautiful messages of the Atonement and the gospel that proclaims it.
Comment by Artemis — July 14, 2005 @ 11:30 am