Housetraining (a man)
G is coming to visit me this weekend and as I sit at this computer avoiding homework and all manner of responsibility, I’ve had time to reflect [read: feel guilty] on the amount of work that needs to be done before her arrival. I’ve also had time to reflect more something else. Something that has been bugging me for years…
I really resent being woman when it’s time to clean the house.
It’s true. In our home, equality does not exist when it comes to dust, laundry and clutter. Though we are all equal offenders when making the mess, because I’m “the mom” I am responsible for cleaning it up.
Now, I could ask my partner to do more to help out, but that would in my mind, make me a nag. So I let all that nasty resentment and clutter build up by avoiding the subject in every possible way– until we have a visitor.
Then I break down and get to work. Sure, the floors get swept, and the tub scrubbed but I also break down and let loose on DH for not helping out around the house.
I resent him for not noticing that anything needs to be done.
I’m not a housewife. Until recently, I was an equal wage earner who worked the same amount of hours as DH. And yet, because I have boobs, I’m responsible for the duties in the home. And I resent it.
Now, to be fair, it’s not really HIS fault. He had a momma that worked and kept house. She made dinner and he never learned to noticed the crap (no pun) on the toilet seat. He never learned that the pile of paper blocking his studio doorway needs to get picked up and not stepped over–week after week.
To his credit, if I ask him to tune my bike or collect eggs or build me a garden fence, he’s on it. He will even wash dishes and hang the laundry if I request it. But noticing that his bike helmet and gloves don’t make an attractive centerpiece at the dining table—not his thing. Yes, I could make a list, as DH has mentioned in the past. But dang it!!! nobody makes me a list and tells me what needs to be done. I just know by observation. I could also ask him to do this or that every day and that would certainly lighten my load, but it still makes me feel like crap because 1., i have to ask [read: nag. and that’s not cool] and 2., that I have to ask him to help me clean his house.
See? don’t you see how petty I am? Help!
So. If I were to ask, how do I (we) train my(our) man to do _____, you’d all get on my case for talking like that because there’s no way we’d stand for a man asking “how do I train my wife to be a better housekeeper”.
But the reality is, many (I’d say most) women were trained from a very young age to notice dust on the piano, poop on the toilet seat and and that living room floors are no place for smelly hockey gear. We’ve been trained not to nag our men about chores because that makes us unattractive. We’ve also been trained to respect the wage earner ( *coughs* man) as superior to us because “he had to go to work all day”.
And this leads me to another question: Why the double standard? Yes, it’s there. Just as I might be able to ask how to train my husband to be a better housekeeper, my DH would be roasted over a spit for asking “how do i train my wife to____”. And a woman who’s horrible housekeeper would experience people talking about what a slob she is or what a disservice she does her household and how noble her husband is.
But we tolerate such behaviors in a man. Again, a double standard.
So lets cut the crap and admit that it exists. But why? And it it possible to actually achieve equality in a marriage/family relationship?
Now, help me figure out a productive way to train my spouse to be a better housekeeper and me to be a better, less resentful partner to him.
* I realize that I’m making generalizations, but look past the my little anecdotes at the bigger picture, thanks.
** title is meant to be a play on words.
1. Recognise that things will never be equal when it comes to housework because men just don’t ’see’ mess. And thank your lucky stars that your DH isn’t like some of my freinds’ DH, who see mess, complain about it, and expect DW to clean it up because she’s the woman.
2. Acknowledge what he does. We (meaning I) have a tendancy to focus on what I do and ignore what DH does. But I always leave it up to him to build the fire, build, light, and tend to the bonfire, clean the woodstove, get the house ready for bushfire season, build the windmill to get us off-grid, do the fencing, etc. On the balance I still do more on a daily basis; but he does the big miserable chores.
3. Tell him what you want him to do. Be direct and honest. Don’t make apologies for asking. Recognise that he does not see the dirt like you do; recognise that he is not a neandarthal; recognise that he loves you and would go to the ends of the earth for you; so asking him to sweep the kitchen floor is not asking too much.
Comment by Quimby — June 26, 2009 @ 6:04 pm
I felt that same way years ago–early in our marriage. My husband had been raised by a doting grandmother. However, my husband is one of the hardest workers I know. And willing. Very willing. When I would build up silent resentment instead of asking (nagging) he would be confused, “why don’t you just ask me”. I finally decided it was a matter of pride on my side and style on his. So, I started making him lists and asking him. And he does it willingly and happily. AND he started NOTICING. And then I didn’t have to make lists and ask him. Then I started saying, you know, I work full-time too, I shouldn’t have to be the owner of everything connected with the house and kids. I didn’t like having to ask for help and if help didn’t come it fell to me. He agreed–we made up another list–he owns the garage, dishes, the floors, the kids’ ball schedules, the yard, garbage, recycling, cleaning and gas-ing the cars, etc. etc.. I own laundry, cooking, school event schedules, bill paying, shopping, inside house cleaning (which is still divided up amonst him, me and the kids), school conferences..and on and on. It sounds petty but it’s not. It’s setting clear and equitable boundaries and responsibilities. It’s so much better out in the open–discussed kindly and respectfully then played out bitterly and resentfully in my mind. And, we have now been doing this about 10 years. So, for my marriage/my family–this works. My dad used to say unstated expectations just lead to confrontation and resentment. Sit down, talk about it, make a plan–you’ll be amazed at how much happier you are.
Comment by jrm — June 26, 2009 @ 6:07 pm
Sister, I know exactly how you feel, because I’m in the same boat. And no idea how to deal with it, after 18 years.
It bothers me immensely to ask / nag / make lists of chores and remind him to do them. It bothers me that he is so aesthetically clueless about where he puts things when he’s done with them. It drives me crazy that for nearly two decades, I’ve been making comments about how I don’t like junk mail and old newspapers piling up on the kitchen table, but he still doesn’t clue in that perhaps, as a favor, we could agree that all that trash can just go into the trash can. (”Yes, I know that that would fill up the trash can sooner and you’d have to take it out more often. It wouldn’t exactly kill you do that, now would it?”)
But it also bothers me to live in an untidy house.
I’m sort of reaching the conclusion that it bothers me more to live in an untidy house. I’m starting to tell him to do what I want done.
I was briefly in a management-type job and realized what while I’m neither housewife nor housekeeper, I might be OK with being a household manager with an employee who needs lots of direction.
Comment by Valerie — June 26, 2009 @ 6:19 pm
It’s funny. I’m the primary housekeeper in our home. As a general rule, I cook, I do dishes, laundry, sweep, mop, make the bed, do the shopping, clean the bathroom, vacuum, etc (in addition to the typical “man” chores: mowing, keeping the car maintained, etc). So I consider myself pretty enlightened. I have no problem doing “woman’s” work.
However, I’m absolutely like N when it comes to clutter. As soon as my backpack, hat, book, whatever, is out of my hand, I cannot see it until I am actually looking for it. My retinas simply does not register it. There must be some scientific explanation. And like M, it drives my wife absolutely nuts that I will step over this item a dozen times without ever stooping down to pick it up. And I don’t dust either; that’s invisible to me as well.
(though I always notice and clean “messes” in the bathroom…missing that is disgusting.)
Will I eventually learn to overcome this disability? I don’t know.
I do think there are ways to point it out to your spouse without nagging. But each couple has to figure out what that means themselves.
Comment by Derek — June 26, 2009 @ 6:38 pm
My sister is going through this with her husband. He thinks because she’s a SAHM, then she should be responsible for everything in the house. (Doesn’t matter that she’s nine months pregnant with child #3 at this moment.) I told her if that was the case then she needed to set some home rules, and who cares if it sounds like nagging?
I’ve always looked at it this way- if the house is going to be “my job”, then it’s going to be done the way *I* want it to be done.
That means the DH doesn’t get to throw his dirty clothes on the floor. If he wants them to be washed, dried, folded and put away then they need to go into the appropriate laundry hamper. If he wants a nice meal at the end of the day, then he gets to help with the clean up afterward. This list could go on, and it goes for our children as well.
I’ve also learned that he can’t read my mind, so it’s better for everyone involved if I just spell out what I need and how it needs to be done.
Comment by Jennifer in GA — June 26, 2009 @ 6:38 pm
I agree with jrm, and I really like her language about ‘owning things.’ That gets at what has bothered me about the whole “make a list” request, because that still leaves me with the mental/emotional work of keeping track of what needs to be done, and deciding whether or not the distribution is fair.
Aside from that, a huge part of what I see from your description is the ‘nagging.’ I feel similarly rather a lot. So I talk with my husband about it. I ask him if it feels like nagging to him, and he almost always says that it doesn’t- that is generally enough for me to not feel like a nag.
If that isn’t enough for you perhaps you could work out something with your husband where he’ll say ‘thank you for reminding me’ or something similar to assuage your feelings.
Something else I do to avoid feeling like a nag is being careful to give a time frame to the tasks. “Could you move your hockey junk before we eat dinner?” “Will you empty the dishwasher sometime in the next hour so I can load it before we go to bed?”
Lastly you could attack it from the other end, point out all the chores you do to help him notice everything that needs to be done around the house. Sometimes if we start developing a pattern (he leaves socks on the floor intending to get them later, I pick them up, he forgets the socks were ever on the floor, does it again the next day) I’ll matter-of-factly say “I picked up your socks for you.” He’ll say thank you, I say your welcome, and the next day he doesn’t leave his socks on the floor.
I know this is already a novel of a comment, but about the training thing- I think it is just the word training that is so bothersome. Think “How can I help my wife remember to check the gas tank in the car so I have enough gas to get to work on time the next day?” That doesn’t sound at all offensive to me, because it is based in common courtesy of using/caring for shared property. I think a lot of the housework problems are of a similar nature.
Comment by Starfoxy — June 26, 2009 @ 6:43 pm
There is no universal definition of clean. To the extent that your clean requires more effort than his, then realize that you will likely have to fill that void. Also, it is extremely inappropriate to expect anyone to think like we do or act like we do. The fact that he is willing to do what is asked of him places him above many men in the world. I attended the “Sex Love and Relationships” seminar at the Jewish Community Center in SLC last week and one of the big themes is that you cannot expect your significant other to be able to read your mind just because he loves you. It is your obligation to communicate openly and effectively about what your needs are. SOunds like he would be very receptive to helping you with your needs.
Comment by StillConfused — June 26, 2009 @ 6:43 pm
The best thing for dividing our housekeeping was bedrest with one of my pregnancies…he did it ALL. From that point on he always rotated the laundry at night, always put the food away, encouraged the children to clear their plates and other little things.
Then we got a maid…We still haven’t recovered from our maid. I loved her. It has been two years though and all of the things she used to do, I now do. Even the things dh used to always do.
Comment by britt — June 26, 2009 @ 6:51 pm
I agree that this is true to an extent, but this mindset can easily develop into a game of housework chicken where whoever ignores the mess the longest wins.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to say to your partner “I know crumbs on the counter don’t bother you, but they bother me. I would appreciate it if you would wipe up the counter when you make toast.” Someone who responds to that with “meh, it’s not my problem. You hate crumbs, you wipe them up.” is a jerk.
Healthy relationships involve give and take from both sides, which means that the person with higher standards shouldn’t be doing all the ‘giving.’
Comment by Starfoxy — June 26, 2009 @ 6:54 pm
Now, to be fair, it’s not really HIS fault. He had a momma that worked and kept house. She made dinner and he never learned to noticed the crap (no pun) on the toilet seat. He never learned that the pile of paper blocking his studio doorway needs to get picked up and not stepped over–week after week.
O Sister, that is my ode. My man was also raised by a Perfect Mother and I rue the day she didn’t teach him to vacuum, cook a meal, or wash his own damn socks.
The disparity between men and women in the home-realm is one of the only experiences that has caused me to ponder if gender essentialism has a kernel of truth in it. But since I’ve observed that a man can, in fact, learn how to keep house, I’ve decided that, like everything, it comes down to training. Training in childhood is preferred but, failing that, training in adulthood is possible. It IS training, training the eye to see and the hand to act. I had to be trained how to do “guy stuff” like change a tire or take out the trash, because my dad never bothered. And once I was trained I was the equal to my partner. So I don’t mind saying I’ve had to train my good man to be a proper housemate.
Here’s how I taught my partner to clean the house. For the first three years I simmered and blew up for all the reasons you listed above. Then we had a second child and I got serious about demanding his assistance, primarily because I confronted the truth that a clean house was ESSENTIAL to my mental health, as was marital equality. I realized before we even got married that he just didn’t see things the way I did. He hadn’t received the proper training. So I made The List. The List! that humiliating, naggy, mother-like endeavor.
But it wasn’t a list just for him. We sat down together and wrote down everything that we needed to do to keep the house presentable. We went room-by-room and listed things like wiping down the kitchen table after meals and mopping on Saturdays and so on. Making the list together forced him to observe the house like I did, specifically pinpointing dirty things that most men just haven’t been trained to notice (like toothpaste spit on the mirror and general dirtiness on the door jambs). We divided it by day, so that every day there were a few things done in the house, and one day a week we’d do a big clean-up, and some things were done every single day, like my cardinal rule that the kitchen must be cleaned - including those things he always forgot, like wiping down the table and sweeping the floor - before going to bed.
We put The List on the refrigerator and every day we’d glance at it to see what was to be done. We didn’t divide activities. We just did it as we saw it, according to our talents and preferences - he likes washing dishes, and doesn’t mind taking out the trash, and I like…um…
We always expressed honest appreciation to each other for sane-itizing the house and I stopped berating him or letting the resentment build up when things weren’t as I wanted them. I was honest with him about how I wanted things and I also realized my own limitations - like that no matter how OCD I am about the rest of the house, I am a total slacker about cleaning the tub (seriously, months go by), and I also tend to really trash the car while keeping the house pristine. He was so relieved to have The List and not have the panic of knowing that I wanted him to do something but not knowing what it was.
Gradually, over time, he didn’t need The List anymore. He just knew that, on Fridays, we clean the house top to bottom. We vacuum on Tuesdays. Cleaning the bathroom includes the tub AND the floor AND the sink AND the base of the toilet. And now, we don’t use The List anymore, and we also don’t have certain days that we do things, except a big clean-up once a week - we just do things as they are required, and we never fight about it anymore.
It’s possible, really, it is. You just have to be willing to make The List. If he’s willing to follow it for an extended period of time, it will probably become unnecessary as it just becomes a part of his lifestyle to keep his environment livable. I knew that I’d reached the peak of my powers when my partner started cleaning for stress relief. “I just feel better after cleaning the house,” he said, and I took him promptly to bed.
P.S. What I really want to know is, how come G travels all over the kingdom visiting awesome people like mfranti and the Remys, but she never visits me? (It’s the awesome, isn’t it.)
Comment by Chandelle — June 26, 2009 @ 7:03 pm
You’re right about this, but you can’t train your husband. You’ve gotta train your BOYS. I just can’t believe this is an innate talent of the female of the species. Make lists for your sons, and when they don’t notice clutter, take them around and point it out.
PS, m, I know you don’t have boys, I’m just speaking generally.
PSS g has never visited me either. Take note: Chandelle and I get the next turn. I suspect she is taking these trips as a training program for her husband.
Comment by Bored in Vernal — June 26, 2009 @ 7:42 pm
I know this is not going to be a popular comment but i am somewhat like the DH in the post.
I do my chores, take out the trash, pick up my clothes and wash the dishes.
But honestly beyond that I just do not think about it. I know that my dear wife gets annoyed by it, but she for the most part does not complain too much so long as I do what she asks me to do.
And so i do not take it as nagging.
She asks me to do something and as long as I do not have to drop what i am doing and immediately hop on it, and as long as she is not being a witch about it, then i am more that willing to do it.
So I guess my advice is similar to that of many on the site already: if your requests are done in a spirit of love and sincerity, then I am sure your Hub would be happy to do it.
Not saying that the double standard is right, but if you want him to pitch in indoors, I think that is the way to at least begin getting some seriously needed help.
Comment by Sam Sneed — June 26, 2009 @ 7:43 pm
When I married my husband, I found out that (at age 27) he did not own a hanger. Not one. His strategy was a big pile of clothes on the floor and alot of ironing in the morning. So, needless to say, housework was not a strong suit in the beginning.
18 years later, I work full-time. DH is a student and telecommutes.. and we have 4 kids, 3 of which are teenagers. And I do very little housework or cooking. I wash my own laundry, but I haven’t done laundry for anybody else in at least 3 years. We direct the troops (the teens) together on house maintenance, meal prep and dishes during the dishes during the week. We do a “family power clean” on Saturday AM. This includes any yardwork.
Neither DH or I like housework, but with 4 kids, some level of order is necessary for day-to-day sanity. But with the kids doing most of it, we don’t stress over it anymore.
Now - take me back to when the teens were all pre-schoolers??…. ok I think I blocked those memories out.. sorry!
Comment by twinmomnc — June 26, 2009 @ 8:19 pm
re: 10
Okay, I don’t mind doing the housework because I love my wife, and because it has to be done. But I cannot fathom ever getting to that point.
Comment by Derek — June 26, 2009 @ 8:33 pm
I guess I perceive this one like a man. I seriously doubt that many husbands want or appreciate their wives to simmer voicelessly in anger over undone housework. Men aren’t mindreaders. Open, polite, respectful communication is not nagging, and husbands won’t perceive it that way; I think the perception that it is doesn’t square with reality. If one wants something to change, don’t stew over it; have a conversation and talk about it together.
But if that doesn’t work, I saw a tv program once that was all about training your man, and this person used the exact same techniques that dog trainers used. I don’t remember the specifics, but I thought the concept was pretty funny.
Comment by Kevin Barney — June 26, 2009 @ 8:49 pm
I read a book entitled “A Housekeeper is Cheaper Than a Divorce.” It was a lot of fun to read it, and I thought maybe the author was right- the solution is just to hire a housekeeper.
Unfortunately, I can’t afford one. But, the few times that I got REALLY angry about being the main (or only) housekeeper in the house while working outside the home, I hired a cleaning service. I felt a lot better, and nobody got yelled at.
My strategy? Teach my boys well!
Comment by i want a housekeeper — June 26, 2009 @ 9:32 pm
I’m with chandelle. Just make a list. Even husbands who grew up with mommys who did everything can be “trained”. My husband is. My kids are not (yet), but I am doing my darndest. No way am I raising sons who don’t clean house. They are fighting me every step of the way, but I will succeed!
Comment by Stephanie — June 26, 2009 @ 9:49 pm
Oh, and, to be fair, my husband doesn’t clean house as well as I do. But, he does it a lot faster than I do. So, our strategy goes like this: he enters a bathroom and cleans all the dirt that he “sees”. I go in after him and clean with q-tips (metaphor, sometimes) for two hours until it is immaculate. I really don’t mind because getting rid of the “big” mess is what bothers me, and he does a good job of that.
Comment by Stephanie — June 26, 2009 @ 9:51 pm
Okay, mfranti, time to roll up some newspaper . . .
Derek, cleaning the house can be great for stress relief. Not only do you get out a lot of aggression by tackling a dirty tub, it also gives you a good chance to think about the problem, and when you’re done with the task you have something visible to show for your anguish.
Comment by Quimby — June 26, 2009 @ 9:57 pm
re: 19
I know a lot of people feel that way, Quimby (including my wife, who occasionally does a complete sterilization of some room just for its own sake. But I’ve been having plenty of experience cleaning, and I can say for certain that it’s done nothing to improve my stress or mental well being. Sorry, just doesn’t seem to be part of my programming.
Comment by Derek — June 26, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
I hope nobody took my “I took him to bed” comment seriously. I don’t want it to seem like I reward my partner with sex if he cleans the house.
It was a facetious statement.
Derek, it really blows my mind that cleaning doesn’t help you de-stress. I call it my anti-entropy process - removing chaos from my environment removes chaos from the thought process and emotions.
Comment by Chandelle — June 26, 2009 @ 10:45 pm
*from my thought process…ugh, going to bed.
Comment by Chandelle — June 26, 2009 @ 10:46 pm
“The Most effective and healthy way to produce change in the other person is to … Ask him to change” ~Sidney Jourard
Comment by shakti — June 27, 2009 @ 12:48 am
I’m a woman, and I’m about as messy as they come. Sure, I’ll acknowledge the cultural bias y mom had when she raised me…what with the this is how to clean a toilet etc….but in my apartment I am the messy and clueless one. Sometimes it’s not so much about gender, but about tolerance for clutter. There might be something to the idea that maybe women judge each other on the cleanliness of their homes, so a messy home is more of a threat…but really, I’d drive a pickier husband crazy.
What gets me though is how guys don’t care about how they dress. Don’t they have any fashion sense! lol. Ya, I’m talking to you, high-water pants and sandle sock wearing mismatchers….
Comment by jddaughter — June 27, 2009 @ 1:04 am
re #21 - I don’t think it’s bad to reward cleaning with sex - Aren’t you both winners that way? He gets sex, you get sex AND you get a clean house.
Comment by Quimby — June 27, 2009 @ 1:26 am
I had some recent surgery, and was barred from the chicken house until the incisions were fully healed. (Chickens, for all their virtues, are after all, very dirty animals).
Husband had to take on the chicken tending role. Which would be ok. I’m truly grateful for his help. I am. And I know I shouldn’t complain. Still…
You know what the chicken’s bedtime routine is. I come out the front door at dusk, call them, say “let’s go ladies, don’t dawdle now” and they follow me in for their nightly treat. I check for more eggs, make sure their water cans are full, then say, “Good night now, be nice to each other. ” Yes, of course there are sometimes a couple that don’t come in, they whine and say “Carry me!” I say, “oh, ok. You’re such a silly bird”, then pick them up, tuck ‘em under my arm and take them in.
Well. Husband had his own bedtime routine for the chickens. First, he got the biggest stick he could find. Then he started yelling and chasing them into the roost house. Anyone who didn’t run really fast, he then chased around yelling, waving his big stick and threatening to put them in the stew pot.
My goodness. It’s a wonder they didn’t have bad dreams after that. Heck, maybe they did - I don’t know if chickens dream. I wouldn’t put it past them to do so.In fairness, he asserts (in truth), that his routine, though different, is just as effective in getting the birds locked up at night.
I walked out with him one morning when he let them out. I wasn’t allowed in the chicken house yet, but I stood outside. All the girls came up, pecking at my pants leg, saying “Where have you been! When are you going to be the chicken person again? We don’t like our baby sitter! He yells at us!”
I read once that girls and women are better at taking care of chickens than guys are. At the time I thought the remark sexist. Now, I mean, I’m just sayin’….
Some people are more sensitive to clutter than others. Some don’t get that if they offer to cook dinner, it means they figure out what to prepare and what if anything needs to be purchased for it.
Nobody is a mind reader. Training is a good thing.
Comment by Betty Jo — June 27, 2009 @ 1:43 am
Poor chickens! I was wondering where you were, Betty Jo!
My great-grandma used to wear gloves in the winter when she milked her cows. She swore they gave more milk when she did; and while the men would laugh at her and said it couldn’t possibly make a difference, they could never get as much milk out of them as she could.
Comment by Quimby — June 27, 2009 @ 1:46 am
Nonsense.
More nonsense.
Probably positive reinforcement, which can work for anbody.
Comment by Peter LLC — June 27, 2009 @ 5:43 am
My husband actually sent this post to me with one word, “appropos”, because I could have basically written it. This describes our relationship with housework to a T. We both work, he’s a scientist working long hours in the lab and I’m an attorney trying to make my billables. I like to cook, so most nights I don’t mind being in charge of dinner, but I can’t tell you the number of times I have simmered and fumed about the state of our house, only to explode with resentment when once again I am the only one cleaning.
I try positive reinforcement, telling him how grateful I am when he does do something (after I have asked him to). But sometimes I’ll ask him to do a load of laundry, for example, and he’ll huff and puff and say how he just did laundry. I just stare at him incredulously and point out how that was 2 weeks ago and since then I’ve done 7 loads of laundry. Generally he tries to be appreciative of the things I do, but I know there is a lot I do that he doesn’t even see.
I am happy when he helps out, because I realize there are still men in the world who wouldn’t, but what I really want is for him to NOTICE and for it to not all fall on me to notice the mess and delegate the chores and wind up doing the bulk of them myself.
I’ll just keep trying with my husband, but I guarantee that if we have any sons, they will be learning that cleaning is their responsibility too.
Comment by Kelly — June 27, 2009 @ 7:17 am
I think it’s absurd when people, men or women, claim that they “don’t see” mess. They’re not looking, and it’s just a way to weasel out of cleaning. If it were important to them to pull their weight in this area, they would, and the fact that they don’t shows that they don’t care about cleanliness or equity or the other person’s feelings.
In the army all the men clean up their space, because they are required to. Amazingly, this is true even if their mothers didn’t train them! So I don’t think it’s very feminist of you to blame his mother and say it’s not his fault. Adult men can and do learn to clean, and to notice, and he’s had ample opportunity to develop that skill.
I think it’s very reasonable to be upset about this. If you’ve made it clear repeatedly that this issue is important to you, and your husband is not working with you towards a solution, that shows a lack of respect for you, your time, and your home together. It’s an upsetting thing to have to face up to, being treated disrespectfully by one’s husband in this way.
I think you’ll just have to keep hammering on it. If you control your tone of voice, it’s not nagging. It sounds like you need a sit-down discussion where you re-emphasize the reasons this is important to you and come up with a joint solution. Which you then enforce via further discussions. The concept of “nagging” is just a way of minimizing what women have to say (trivial, overly emotional, shrewish) and bullying them out of saying it.
Comment by z — June 27, 2009 @ 8:27 am
This has always been a struggle in our house. We both work, don’t have kids, so why shouldn’t he clean too? But yet I had to make him lists and, even then, his “clean bathroom” contained a moldy toilet. And when his family comes, he says, “We don’t need to clean” but I know they judge me (not him) if the house isn’t clean. It shouldn’t bug me, but it does. Our solution for now is a cleaning service. It is wonderful. But soon we will have children and I won’t keep working and the cleaning service will get cut. I assume I’ll clean and he won’t at that time. Which I am not sure if that’s fair or not because I don’t know what my daily routine will be like. But I think it’s reality. We each do our own laundry now too, which I don’t know if I will get stuck with doing it all once I stay home. Sigh.
Comment by Meghan — June 27, 2009 @ 8:41 am
Oh man, I feel you on this. My husband really does do a lot around the house, I’d say we share about equal loads of housework. But….
A) The things he does, he almost always does because I asked him, not because “it needed to be done”. The exception to this is when I am really stressed or overwhelmed with work, at which point he really attempts to keep things looking decent.
B) When he does things, he wants to be thanked and appreciated, but I am NEVER thanked for the things I do. Not that he doesn’t appreciate it. I think that he just doesn’t realize that it’s as hard for me to do it as for him. I have no problem thanking him for doing stuff…. but when it’s only one-way, it creates this assumption that he was doing me a favor, or taking some of my load. But it is OUR load, not mine.
I tend to agree with #30, z. Men are just as capable of seeing mess as women. It’s just awfully convenient to claim “I never learned how to clean” to get out of it.
And willingly picking up some housework is a HUGE way to show that you are willing to really overstep those traditional gender roles and allow your wife the freedom to also be a full person. An important skill for a man who is married to a consciously feminist woman.
Comment by Natalie K. — June 27, 2009 @ 8:57 am
My husband just pointed out something else to me. He says men see the mess, they just don’t care about it. He claims he just doesn’t value cleanliness as much as me. He doesn’t “expect” me to clean up, he just doesn’t really care if it gets done. If the mess really piles up for a while, he doesn’t think I’ve been shirking, just that we’ve both been lazy about it.
But still, I always have to ask him to do stuff. Even with the chores that are regularly his.
Haha. My husband once cleaned the toilet with Windex and didn’t see the problem.
Comment by Natalie K. — June 27, 2009 @ 9:00 am
Let’s please be careful with all the generalizations.
Not all men make bad housekeepers and not all women make good housekeepers. Not all men miss the mess, and not all women see the mess. Not all men need to be asked to clean, and not all women take the initiative to clean.
Comment by Kim Siever — June 27, 2009 @ 9:58 am
z, you said this:
If it were important to them to pull their weight in this area, they would, and the fact that they don’t shows that they don’t care about cleanliness or equity or the other person’s feelings.
but then you said this:
Adult men can and do learn to clean, and to notice, and he’s had ample opportunity to develop that skill.
Some men DO need to learn to clean, to notice, to develop that skill, in adulthood. It might not indicate that they don’t care about cleanliness or equity or the other person’s feelings - simply that they haven’t learned, because nobody has taken the time to help them see it. If a person is not raised with a basic understanding of household care, if a person grows up having everything done for him or her and never observing what happens “behind the scenes” in the caretaking of a home, they shouldn’t be expected to just “get it” (though some people do). Cleaning a house takes skill, not just talent. And too many men are raised with do-everything mothers who never delegate or instruct, and do-nothing fathers who think they’re above that kind of work.
It seems to me that your comments cancel each other out. On the one hand, you say that a person who doesn’t help out just doesn’t care about his or her partner. But then you say that a man is capable of developing the skill of cleaning. So what seems truer to me, at least based on my own experience, is that the real issue is the gap between not helping out (for whatever reason) and developing the skill. Bridging that gap is part of coordinating relational harmony.
Yes, some men do ignore what needs to be done. They pretend to be blind; they allow us to blame it on their upbringing; they take any opportunity to shirk responsibility. But many men do want to help; desperately, they want to keep their partners happy; they panic in the realization that they just don’t know what to do. I know this is true because my male partner is the last person to pretend to overlook something so he doesn’t have to deal with it. For a long time I thought he was just being an ass about housework. But he really did need the training, because he grew up in a very ’50s-style household. He hadn’t been trained to see it the way I had, growing up with a female caretaker who was nearly OC in her approach to household care. I imagine that many women, if not most of us, grow up with mothers, etc., like that. But most men just aren’t. It all goes back to the cycle of gender indoctrination. Boys learn that it’s women’s work, so they don’t bother to learn. Women learn that it’s their job because their male partners have the “real job,” so they don’t bother to teach it to their boys. Even if they do try to teach their boys to clean house, as many here have mentioned, the lessons probably won’t stick if they see that their fathers blow it off and their mothers don’t really require the men to participate. The only way for all people in the house to learn to keep house is for all people in the house to have equitable expectations.
So I would say, yes, a man who doesn’t bother to take the time to learn how to keep house, who doesn’t care if his partner takes on all of the duties, who feels he’s above all that, indeed is careless of others’ feelings and doesn’t really desire equity in his relationship. But I believe that what really happens, for most of us, is this. The man comes into the marriage without knowing what to do, or what he’s expected to do, or if he’s expected to do it. Women come in knowing what to do, what they’ll have to do if nobody else does it, and probably that they’re expected to do it. So from the beginning, women just do it - because it has to be done and they know how to do it. And men sit back and watch. They pick up a few skills, but mostly they don’t have to really make an effort. And they still don’t really know what to do because they haven’t learn to think that way, to really see it. When the woman blows up, the man says, “Just tell me what to do!” But most women don’t want to have to parent their partners, so this only fuels the resentment. And round and round it goes. We can make the choice to end this cycle by committing to teaching each other and moving into a truly equal partnership.
Comment by Chandelle — June 27, 2009 @ 10:04 am
Let’s please be careful with all the generalizations.
M admitted in the OP that she was making generalizations. It’s impossible to speak about this topic without doing so. We can recognize exceptions to our experiences while also trying to communicate within the common experience.
Comment by Chandelle — June 27, 2009 @ 10:07 am
It’s not just M, Chandelle.
Comment by Kim Siever — June 27, 2009 @ 10:12 am
He doesn’t “expect” me to clean up, he just doesn’t really care if it gets done.
My partner used to feel this way, too, and often made that comment - I just don’t really care if it’s clean. I finally had to state, in no uncertain terms, that I don’t care if he doesn’t care if it’s clean. I don’t care if he cleans it to make it clean. I do care if he cleans it so that I can see that it’s clean, and maintain my sanity. He gets that. He might not have been able to wrap his head around cleaning for the sake of clean, but he could get that he cares about me enough to clean up after himself so I don’t go ballistic and then hate myself for it. He could get that he cleans to make our relationship more equal, in that we try to meet the other person halfway.
Comment by Chandelle — June 27, 2009 @ 10:12 am
Chandelle, I’m having trouble making sense of your comment. I don’t think my views are self-contradictory at all. Maybe you can try to make your point clearer.
Men who care about their partners will develop the skill of cleaning, and then exercise it. Men are capable of discerning when it is necessary for them to develop a skill. There are many books and resources available, and men are perfectly capable of figuring it out on their own. It’s really not that complicated to learn how to clean. I think we’re basically on the same page, but I really don’t see how it’s a wife’s responsibility to train her husband in cleaning. I understand that girls do receive more training than boys, and I think that’s a problem, but it doesn’t excuse adult men’s failure to seek information. There’s no special exemption from cleaning for people who’ve never received intensive one-on-one training. It’s just a normal part of adult life and we all need to learn to do it rather than blaming our shortcomings on others If it were really true that men couldn’t learn to clean without being taught by a woman, then I wouldn’t be coming down so hard on them for failing to clean. But it’s not. They can learn, and when they don’t, it shows that they don’t care about fairness or about their partner’s happiness. Men who insist that their wives have to teach them or they can’t do it are just being childish, and women need to demand better.
Men who really care about fairness will clean, competently, whether a woman trains them or not. Men who really care about fairness will think about equitable division of household labor and seek knowledge on their own, rather than waiting to be shown. Especially after having the issue brought to their attention multiple times, as was described in the original post.
Comment by z — June 27, 2009 @ 10:20 am
My husband is actually great about seeing mess and being thorough. His problem is that he can’t prioritize. There will be a sink full of dishes, a dirty kitchen floor, piles of laundry, but he will focus first on taking all the books off the bookshelf and dusting behind them. And he considers that doing this was as helpful as anything else he could have done. Plus, he is really really slow about cleaning. Honestly I wonder sometimes if he does it on purpose so that I end up with all the other chores. I mean, I’m sure that’s not the case, but still, it gets frustrating. And I don’t want to be a jerk and say, “Hey, dumbhead, do you not see the kitchen table?” At least since I’ve gotten really pregnant, he’s been taking on more stuff because I’ve gotten so slow (bending over is difficult!)
I really like Chandelle’s idea about just making a list of everything that needs to be done each day and doing whatever hasn’t been done. So each person is taking responsibility and no one has to be told what to do. Awesome idea.
Comment by jen — June 27, 2009 @ 10:22 am
Ha ha. Exactly. Nothing like planning for and purchasing for your own Mother’s Day dinner (cooking is the easy part).
Another truism. And I know I always shock his family with how much he has to do around here. When he gets home, I am off-duty.
I have considered getting a housekeeper recently. I was pretty good at keeping the house under control until child 4 came along. But, I am afraid that if I get a housekeeper, my sons will get the message that someone else is responsible to clean their mess, not them. So, I decided to suffer through a few more years of less-than-perfect clean while I teach and train. It is not fun. But I will persevere.
Comment by Stephanie — June 27, 2009 @ 10:25 am
z, but what do you as a wife do in the meantime? Fume while he tries to figure it out? Might as well help him along and show him what needs to be done and how to do it. That’s working together.
Comment by Stephanie — June 27, 2009 @ 10:27 am
I think it is the same with other things. I don’t mow the lawn, but if I needed to, I would prefer my husband teach me (”train” me) how to do it than expect me to just get a book and figure it out on my own. That is a lot of wasted time and effort and still might not end up like he likes it done (since he is particular).
Comment by Stephanie — June 27, 2009 @ 10:29 am
I’m fine with helping, Stephanie, I just object to the proposition in the original post and in Chandelle’s comment that it’s women’s responsibility to teach cleaning, and that men who haven’t been taught can’t be expected to figure it out on their own. Adults should learn to clean, one way or another, without blaming others for not teaching them.
Cleaning lessons are not like a priesthood blessing that you can only get from a live person of a specific gender. People can learn to clean from a book, a magazine, a YouTube video, a man, a woman, a child, the back of the cleaning product package, or by trial and error on your own.
Comment by z — June 27, 2009 @ 10:31 am
See, Stephanie, if you were arguing that you couldn’t possibly be expected to figure it out on your own, or that you just “don’t see” that the grass needs to be cut, or that you’ll never be able to do it properly because your father didn’t teach you when you were little, then the analogy would be appropriate. You’re not making those arguments, because they are unpersuasive, but those are the reasons that somehow justify men’s failure to clean.
Comment by z — June 27, 2009 @ 10:33 am
I get what you are saying, z.
My in-laws are actually visiting right now. Yesterday my boys were running around doing their chores (Grandma was helping with some). My 5 year old wanted a “special” chore assigned by mom, so I told him he could clean the inside of all the toilets. He grabbed the wand and ran over to Grandpa and said, “Come on, Grandpa! Let’s go!” Grandpa laughed nervously, and 5 year old said, “We can each do one!” I went upstairs to work on laundry, but I think I remember him saying that Grandma was the one who helped him.
Comment by Stephanie — June 27, 2009 @ 10:36 am
Oh my goodness, when my husband’s parents come around, my husband does everything. It’s awesome because I get to sit around and be lazy. But it’s funny because the reason he does it is to show his parents that a real man can do housework and that he and I have an equal marriage. His dad is a major chauvinist and has never taken to me because I’m not a super submissive little wife. So my husband’s plan totally backfires because he does all the work and asks me about every decision so his dad thinks he’s been unmanned or something so his dad goes out of his way to exclude me and try to put me in my place on behalf of his poor son. It’s very sad, but I kind of like my week-long vacation. I do pay for it by having to put up with my FIL however. =] We have weird family dynamics.
Comment by jen — June 27, 2009 @ 10:38 am
And, come to think of it, that makes me proud (extension of 46). I think my kids are getting the message that cleaning is everyone’s job.
Comment by Stephanie — June 27, 2009 @ 10:41 am
Hee, hee. My 6 & 3 year olds LOVE cleaning the toilets. Too cute.
Comment by jen — June 27, 2009 @ 10:41 am
re: 21
What can I say? I’m not very Zen…The closest I come to “de-stressing” is when I’m done cleaning is “At least I’ve got that crap out of the way…Now I can get to the really important stuff.”
Re: 28
I agree that positive reinforcement is probably the best method. And on the subject of “training,” I have to say that while I’m glad Starfoxy’s way (#6) works for her marriage, that would be an automatic fight if my wife started to list all the things she did for me. I would find it very passive-aggressive and condescending. I doubt I’m alone, so be advised before trying in your own relationship.
re: 30
I agree that all people can learn to “see” and clean messes, but I honestly mean it that I don’t “see” it by nature. Of course, I don’t literally mean I don’t see it, but I certainly don’t by nature notice it.
Like several people have said, this isn’t necessarily a gender issue. I have a sister who is far more untidy than I am, and a brother who is far neater.
Re: 32
I agree it’s very silly for one to expect a pat on the head for doing the essential work.
Re: 40
I’m a bit like your husband, in that I’m much slower than my wife at cleaning. Generally, this is because I’m more thorough; If I’m going to do it, I’m going to do it well (which is probably another reason cleaning isn’t stress relieving; I’m constantly thinking “wait, is that another spot?” Hmmm…is that just a variation in the natural color or a bacteria colony?”). It’s gotten to the point where my wife won’t do dishes with me because, while she’s quicker, I’m constantly putting the utensils back in the dishwater because I found some microscopic bit of food she missed…
Comment by Derek — June 27, 2009 @ 11:20 am
I just object to the proposition in the original post and in Chandelle’s comment that it’s women’s responsibility to teach cleaning, and that men who haven’t been taught can’t be expected to figure it out on their own.
I don’t think I said that. If it sounded that way, I apologize. I certainly do not feel that it’s women’s responsibility to teach men to clean. Nor do I believe that men can’t figure it out on their own. Instead, I believe that women have the ability, and certainly the proximity, to teach and learn alongside their men, if both parties make that choice. I believe that our obligation as a couple is to work together to understand our limitations and desires. I didn’t get a book to learn how to change a tire. I asked my partner. I wouldn’t want my partner to learn how to clean from a book. I would rather work with him. That’s what we did in creating a list together, and carrying out the duties together.
Comment by Chandelle — June 27, 2009 @ 11:59 am
Could someone help me train my wife to get the hay out of the field? It’s just not fair that I should have to do all the heavy lifting outdoor chores. I’m sick of these traditional roles.
Comment by Farmer John — June 27, 2009 @ 12:35 pm
It’s this part of your original comment, Chandelle:
“simply that they haven’t learned, because nobody has taken the time to help them see it. ”
They haven’t learned, but not being taught is only one reason. Lacking initiative is the other. You’re excusing men for not taking the initiative to learn to clean before getting married, and laying blame on their mothers instead, which is so, so, so unfeminist.
Comment by z — June 27, 2009 @ 1:06 pm
The real problem you are having is that he is a guy and he hasn’t been trained properly. You have to decide if you want him properly trained or not.
It isn’t nagging. *amn I hate the way women think that educating and reminding a guy is nagging. It isn’t.
Men aren’t telepathic and they aren’t omniscient.
Until I got medication for my ADD I literally didn’t see a lot of things either …
Otherwise the poor guy will have two time frames “drop everything and do it now” or “get it done sometime (or never)” which are the two guy timeframes.
Amen.
Ok, what is wrong with cleaning a toilet with Windex?
But seriously, if you are married to a guy instead of an OCD cleanbot, you will probably need to help him alter his perceptions, standards and time allocations. Either you can do that by teaching him, with reinforcement or by being resentful and nasty to him and hoping he manages to figure it out by the same sort of telepathy that hasn’t managed to read your mind in the past …
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — June 27, 2009 @ 1:09 pm
I think the people who are going on about teamwork and teaching are talking about a very different situation. The original post was not a complaint about having to give a few basic cleaning lessons. It was about a man who, despite having the issue brought to his attention multiple times, consistently fails to pull his weight, even though he is fully capable of learning how to clean, and has had plenty of time in which to do so. It’s the pattern, the longstanding nature of the problem, that shows disrespect and a lack of commitment to fairness. Lack of skill is a convenient excuse, but in this context it doesn’t justify the failure to clean.
And somehow, this is his mother’s fault. Or his wife’s responsibility to correct. But never, ever a man’s fault for failing to master the basics of self-care because he has always been able to get away with pushing it off on a woman.
Comment by z — June 27, 2009 @ 1:22 pm
Hubby is the same way. Also, he clams up and wants to clean even less when I nag him. Like other men, he is also not very observant about mess. We have solved this in two ways:
1. There are a few things he is “in charge” of: putting away clean dishes and taking out the trash. He has become capable of observing when those two things need to get done.
2. When we are both home and he is not doing anything super important, I tell him that I think it would be nice if our house looked a little cleaner, and then say something like “if you clean the clothes on the floor of the bedroom I will clean the toilet.” I always make sure that my job is something he hates to do (he is a germophobe), so that his job seems like a piece of cake. So instead of nagging him, it is more like I am making him a deal.
I still think I do more of the work, but it is much much better than when we were first married!!
Comment by Lauren — June 27, 2009 @ 1:47 pm
My parents raised my brothers and me the same when it came to housework responsibilities. Yet, I believe they don’t care about mess and the ones who are married do not do their “fair share” of housework. So I see no difference between sons who are raised to do it, and someone like my husband whose mother did it all.
I no longer resent my husband. How I got to this place is a combination of solutions.
1.. I have lowered my expectations of what I expect him to do.
2. I communicate clearly what I expect him to do.
3. I concentrate on things he seems more willing to do. A little creativity and I find that he is more willing to pitch in in certain ways.
4. He has raised his expectations of what he should do because he is a better husband now.
5. I have never nagged, I request and try to get a commitment.
6. I have lowered my expectations of how clean our house can be based on number of children and what else I am doing.
7. I do not work outside the home so that I don’t have to come home and resent his lack of housework contribution.
8. I do fewer other (non typical housework) things so that he gets those responsibilities and I feel like things even out (yes, that means acting like a kid and just not stepping up and doing something but if he’ll step up and do it why should I stop him….I can go do the dishes or something).
9. Find ways to enjoy cleaning more–I’ve got years of it, and I can either like my job or hate it. Its all in the attitude.
10. Raise my kids to have housework responsibilities. It’s no longer all up to me.
11. Stop being a control freak.
12. Five languages of love, anyone? I am a service person, so I think that if he really loved me he would do acts of service (i.e. housework). So now I try to notice all the other ways he shows me that he is a loving, good husband. My friend has a husband who comes home and does housework (he’s the bishop and is gone a lot) in order to help her…..but she actually would prefer that they spend “quality time” because she is a quality time person. Now that I can read his language more, I can appreciate the ways that he tells me he loves me, including verbally which is also my language but wasn’t his, but he has definitely improved that. If I’ve got a husband who is awesome in a million different ways, I think I can accept that he isn’t perfect and he doesn’t do everything exactly like I want. He’s an adult and his own person.
13. I figured out that me being critical of what he didn’t do and all the ways he wasn’t good enough was as damaging to our marriage as him expecting me to do all the dishes.
Comment by jks — June 27, 2009 @ 1:55 pm
Hm. I can see that there would be ways of doing the ‘let him know what I did’ thing that could be passive aggressive and condescending. But I feel the need to point out a few nuances of how I do this, so as to preserve my carefully cultivated image of perfection.
First, I don’t ever list all the things that I’ve done all at once. (As in, “I took out the trash, I did the dishes, I folded all this laundry etc etc” with an implied, “you should have been helping and don’t you feel guilty now?”)
Second I only do this with things that we agree are his job- picking up his dirty clothes, clearing the used dishes off his desk, things that he intended on doing himself but either, I got there first or he forgot.
Third I use the same sort of “hey, just so you know” tone that I would use if I was telling him that I took the car for an oil change, or I bought new socks.
My husband is very habitual, and if things fall out of his routine (just once or twice can do it) then he often forgets completely. If I do a favor for him, I’ve found that I have to let him know or from then on he will forget to do it himself and it will be ‘my job.’ That is how the dirty socks get left on the floor, and the milk gets left on the counter, and the nice shirts are worn for working on cars.
Lastly, I would hope that anyone would talk to their partners before implementing any of these ideas unilaterally. Say ‘hey, I’ve been picking up your socks every day and it’s been annoying me that you leave your socks out, and someone I know suggested a few things I can do to help you remember so I don’t get so annoyed. What do you think?’ and then your partner has a chance to say “oh no, my uncle used to say that to me and it drove me nuts.” or “yeah that sounds fine.”
Seriously, if you and your spouse like each other at all then a simple non-confrontational exchange shouldn’t be that hard. And you can use that exchange to work out what seems fair and reasonable to both of you.
Comment by Starfoxy — June 27, 2009 @ 1:57 pm
Wow, it’s the other way for us. I see messy stuff that my wife ignores.
Comment by Mike H. — June 27, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
Actually, z, if you read my comments, I blame both parents if they don’t teach their children to keep a home. It is the parents’ responsibility to civilize their children. Admittedly, I did mention my MIL, because she is the only person in her home keeping house. My FIL is utterly uninvolved. So to me, this is like a math teacher not helping a child with fractions. Whomever has the knowledge and ability should be sharing it. Ideally, this would be both parents, but that is rarely the case with older generations (or new ones). On closer analysis, I shouldn’t blame her. As I said, a woman who teaches her boys to keep house will be largely unsuccessful if they can easily observe that she’s the only one really doing the work. The only way to break this cycle is for there to be a truly authentic, observable, equitable partnership. But because I suggest moving toward this ideal by learning together, teaching each other, instead of sending my man to the library, I am so, so, so unfeminist.
z, I appreciate your commentary very much. You don’t let anyone get away with anything. But I’m tired of this go-round. I’m comfortable and confident in my relationship and in our ardent commitment to achieving equality and setting that example for our kids. I hope that some of our lessons can be helpful for others. Adios, friends.
Comment by Chandelle — June 27, 2009 @ 2:56 pm
Hmm. I want to chime in on this. I think that a large part of this particular issue is mismatched standards. Sure, no one likes to live in a mess, but the actual definition of a “mess” varies from person to person.
Communication is important in establishing what each person feels is essential in things like housework and yardwork and other chores that we have invented to keep ourselves busy.
As has been said several times, we can’t read each other’s minds.
Besides that communication, reasonable expectations are also very important. The fact of the matter is (from my perspective as a man), that it isn’t just not noticing the mess. It is also about diminishing returns. The value of my time versus the cost of highly detailed [cleaning, lawn trimming, flower planting, car washing, etc.] that I don’t see as being essential.
It is all part of the give and take that has to happen when people live together. I can’t realistically expect it all to be my way, any more than my spouse/roommate/sibling or whatever can expect to have it their way. It needs to be a mutual compromise, communicated about, and agreed upon by both parties.
Just my two cents on the matter.
Comment by Matt A — June 27, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
What are the economics of the home? If your spouse is the bread winner, why should s/he have to clean? Especially if s/he earns a significant amount, s/he should be able to enjoy the fruit of his/her hard work.
Everything that a spouse does can be broken down into value e.g. Daycare, Laundry Service, Cleaning, Cooking, etc…
My neighbor’s wife told me that a stay at home mother is worth 145K a year. I told her good luck finding a husband who would pay that much. Anyway, she neglected to assign any additional value to a man besides his work salary. A father is worth something in the home too.
*Go get a house cleaner for $100 a week and the issue is gone. Both of you can say the cleaner will deal with it*
What does Mr. Franti think of this post by his spouse? Does he like having his dirty laundry aired in a public forum where it seems that several people may know him? When Mrs. Franti’s friends meet and deal with her husband, what negative things do they unfairly project onto him because of the claims made against him. Maybe he doesn’t like carrying the economic burden of the family? Maybe he doesn’t like all of the outdoor gender expected responsibilities that are placed on him by his spouse? But like many men, he probably sucks it up and just gets the job done. No thanks needed.
Comment by ... — June 27, 2009 @ 4:07 pm
I have noticed that my stuff sitting about in the front room is mostly “projects in process”, and hubby’s stuff sitting about is “clutter”.
My best solution yet is when it gets too messy or guests are coming, is to run about picking up all my “projects” and then say “Nah nah, look at this mess and it’s all your stuff!. He knows the game, chuckles and then gets to picking up his things.
Comment by Betty Jo — June 27, 2009 @ 4:17 pm
What age are all the women complaining about their husbands not cleaning? Because I’m reading this while taking a break from washing dishes and cleaning the bathrooms while my wife takes a nap. Did I just have a mom that raised me right, or is there a certain age that most moms just started teaching their kids to do this?
The generalizations in last half of the OP and in some of the comments are really annoying either way.
Comment by superwoman — June 27, 2009 @ 4:19 pm
Don’t they teach this stuff at the MTC?
To help with communication check out the book “The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work” by John Gottman
good luck!
Comment by thisisthe — June 27, 2009 @ 4:26 pm
I agree with the idea, which several people have brought up, that for one spouse to be unwilling to learn to be cleaner or more tidy shows evidence of selfishness. We won’t be perfect and change a lifetime of habits all in one day (or perhaps even one year). But if one spouse is unwilling to try to understand and meet the others needs regarding cleanliness, they are being selfish.
The more I think about it, the less I think this has to do with gender. Not only have a few husbands here expressed their interest in cleanliness, but I can think of a number of examples from my life. As I mentioned, I have one sister who is much more slovenly than I. We both seem to have picked it up from my mother, who has never been a tidy person. This always drove my father, who liked things neat and clean, nuts. Never nuts enough to do the cleaning himself, of course; just enough to start nagging Mom or the kids. So I think this has much more to do with how you were raised than with sex.
Re: 63
What a coincidence! I’ve noticed that my piles are “research,” and “art,” and “important projects,” while my wife’s piles of knitting and projects are “clutter.” How odd.
Funny how much perspective colors things…
Comment by Derek — June 27, 2009 @ 5:00 pm
In my first marriage this came up as a huge issue, his expecations became my assignment! After a few months of resentment for $20 a week we hired a cleaning service and tah dah…no more resentment, a clean house–conflict over.
I was embarassed to say I as a newlywed with enough time and energy to do the minor housework there was had some outside help but it was to solve a resentment in a marriage not so much about the cleanliness of our tiny one bedroom apartment.
I’ve been married 6 months now and am searching for a housekeeper….same issue, same solution…not willing to let dust interfere with a good man and a good marriage! :0)
PS. If I had kids and a husband less anal retentive–I’d go for a family contract–that’s the counselor in me and I do them all the time with the families I work with–
Comment by LAGirrrl — June 27, 2009 @ 6:18 pm
i read this post to mrF before i posted it. we discussed it because i never post anything about him without his consent. one thing about mrF, he’s able to see the big picture . he realizes that much good can come from a discussion about these kinds of issues because “we are never “the only ones”
Comment by mfranti — June 27, 2009 @ 6:39 pm
Kim, i realize that not all men make bad housekeepers. I just thought this would make a good discussion topic.
every woman i know has this gripe. why can’t we talk about it openly without hurting feelings?
Comment by mfranti — June 27, 2009 @ 6:57 pm
Neither my DH or I are super clean people. But we try to keep what we can tidy. It was hard when we were first married. My DH expected that if I was staying home then I should do all the housework. I told him that wouldn’t fly in our home. So we did make a list and what we were willing to do. He’s a very anal vacuumer so that’s one of his jobs. granted, some weeks go without being vaced…but, he’ll do the dishes one night a week or cleanup after I’ve cooked dinner. I’ve got the laundry and he’s got the trash. He also cleans out the kitty litter! He started doing that after I got pregnant and has continued! Plus, he’s the fixer-up guy and he enjoys scrubbing the tubs while showering. So our house isn’t the spiffiest and sometimes major cleaning only gets down when we have guests. But we’ve been able to talk it through in order to share the load!
Comment by Kaylana — June 27, 2009 @ 8:03 pm
This woman called into a radio station because she was working and her husband was staying home. Her husband was complaining because she didn’t help much with the housework. But she thought it was a fair exchange that she brought home the bacon and he do the housework.
Comment by dara — June 27, 2009 @ 9:10 pm
The DJ said that men have been saying that for years that it is a fair exchange.
But really, the home belongs to both husband and wife and both should work to keep it up and maintain it.
Comment by Dara — June 27, 2009 @ 9:14 pm
z, I think you are implying a deliberate cruelty, where none exists. My husband is not a cruel man. He is just slightly oblivious when it comes to housekeeping. He lived on his own for about 15 years before we were married. He learned as a child to cook, clean, do laundry, etc. - but as an adult man on his own, he just didn’t think most of it was important. Before we married he would change his sheets once or twice a year: “You get up and take a shower anyway, so why do you have to change your sheets?” He didn’t clean the toilet: “Doesn’t that happen when you flush it?” He didn’t clean the shower: “After all you get in there to get clean, so surely the water and soap you use to clean yourself also cleans the shower.” He washed his bath towels maybe once every couple of months: “You only ever use them after you clean yourself, so as long as they don’t get mildewy they’re clean.”
Considering he brought those attitudes into our marriage, I think it’s incredibly enlightened that, now, he mops; cleans the bathroom; changes the sheets (more than once a year!); etc. It’s not important to him, but he knows it’s important to me, so he tries. That he doesn’t do exactly 50% doesn’t mean he doesn’t love me; for me to expect him to do 50%, and to do it up to my standards, would be unfair to him.
This isn’t me giving him a cop-out. This is me recognising that we all go into marriage with different expectations and standards, and that sometimes a compromise means we both have to go more than half-way and still not meet entirely in the middle. That’s marriage.
Comment by Quimby — June 27, 2009 @ 9:15 pm
Oh I feel ya sister! Like most people, my partner and I have different standards for cleanliness. I am all about the equal share of housework. But after many unnecessary fights and hurt feelings I came to the conclusion that I can’t change a person, I can only change my perspective.
My life changed when I began reading “Peace is Every Step” by Thich Nat Han. He spoke specifically about doing dishes and how to incorporate mindfulness while doing it. Now look at housework as a way to stay active while being mindful.
My husband and I are both students and I work a lot more than he does. However, I have come to the conclusion that for me it’s not worth the fight. I’d rather just do the dishes because it gives me an opportunity to recenter myself. I have also noticed that if I am in a better mood while I do the housework my husband seems to say thank you a lot more. I’m certainly not perfect and I still get agitated, but I do it a lot less now.
Comment by shannon — June 27, 2009 @ 9:45 pm
This is one of my pet peeves: assuming that the money earned by the breadwinner is his/her money.
Comment by Stephanie — June 27, 2009 @ 10:10 pm
Personally I think if you’re going to have the attitude that the breadwinner shouldn’t have to do housework, then the breadwinner should have to pay market wages to the person who does the housework. Not illegal immigrant wages. Perhaps a breadwinner with this attitude should also have to pay a fair market price for childcare. Perhaps if money was brought into the equation, the breadwinner would be more appreciative (though very poor) and the non-breadwinner would be less resentful.
Comment by Quimby — June 27, 2009 @ 10:40 pm
Thankfully,I’ve never had a partner who thought household chores were just my responsibility..in fact they did laundry better than I do.
I’ve been teaching my son to give a damn about the house and he vacums weekly,takes out the trash and does laundry from time to time.These habits along with his personality should make him a decent partner for some lucky human.
Now , if I could just find one for me I’d be thrilled!
Personally,I hate the double standard…and I’ve noticed it in my family esp.from my mother…the whole feed the man first..funny I feed the children first..
Most of us couldn’t afford to pay “Wives” what they’re worth,I remember that someone tallied up everything that “Wives” do..and it was around 50,000 a year..
If he’s willing..make a household list..just a general list with all the chores and just check them off as needed..that way it doesn’t feel like you’re “telling” him what to do..but it gets done as needed..just a thought.
Comment by Jillian — June 27, 2009 @ 11:06 pm
I cannot believe Numi hasn’t commented on this! She married and I grew up in a home by someone who really was OCD. The man vacuumed multiple times a day until the pattern in the carpet was right. My sister and I were punished rather severely if we failed to wipe the water spots out of the sink after we washed our hands. And I cannot imagine what life was like for Numi.
After her fortuitous divorce, Numi spent some time with an unmade bed and messy bedroom - and I completely admired it. Then we got to a normal “clean” which I would define as “not disgusting and dusted once a week.” I wonder what she thinks of this type of marital challenge.
Comment by Eris — June 27, 2009 @ 11:41 pm
I have been a SAHM, a full-time working parent married to a full-time working parent, and the sole bread winner in the family…. and you know what? I have done basically the same amount of housework, regardless. It is ridiculous for our little troll friend to claim that because a husband works and a wife is home raising children he has no responsibility to the home. And, while I have no specific references to point to, I am almost certain I have heard several GAs point to that type of reasoning as highly flawed and not conducive to a successful family life.
It’s not that Mr. Eris doesn’t help (and I don’t think most of us have that problem) it’s that they don’t do stuff fully or without being asked. For example, Mr. Eris does great laundry, but neglects to put any of it away. It just sits there in a folded pile until I put it away or it’s all dirty again.
The problem is that it gets old to have to ask constantly. It is a sign of affection when your partner takes into account your preferences and expectations then acts to meet them. In short, there is no greater turn on in the world than watching Mr. Eris clean the kitchen.
Comment by Eris — June 27, 2009 @ 11:47 pm
Not when I was there. There’s also men (and maybe a few women?) that get into the military that are clueless about doing laundry. Drill Instructors tend to flip out about it.
Also, some years ago I heard that one of the men in a Ward near ours was teaching that doing housework ruins the male body, hormone wise. No joke. By “ruining”, I never heard WHAT happens; They become gay? They sprout breasts? They become impotent? That whole thing sounds like an excuse not to do any housework at all, to me.
Comment by Mike H. — June 27, 2009 @ 11:54 pm
Isn’t it obvious? They get dishpan hands.
Comment by Quimby — June 28, 2009 @ 12:26 am
All throughout my growing up years my mother had a plaque up in the kitchen that said “I love a man with dishpan hands!” and guess what? My dad did the dishes a lot. I think it may have been that plaque in the kitchen reminding him that way my mom didn’t have to
Comment by April — June 28, 2009 @ 1:04 am
As an 18-year-old single still living with my parents, I don’t exactly know what my own ideas of cleanliness are. A lot of how I live is based on my parents’ preconceptions, and it’ll be interesting to see how things go when I move out.
However, one thing that I can definitely say about my future marriage is that I will not be like my brother’s wife. Don’t get me wrong, the woman is amazing and I aspire to be like her in many ways. My problem is that my brother does no housework. Or at least he didn’t when I lived with them for a week. He would get home from work and plop himself down in front of the TV, playing with their child (newborn, which is why I was there).
For them, this works. For me, I didn’t even live there and wanted to strangle him (much like when I lived with him while he was at home, interestingly enough). I was doing way more work than he was! My brother is great, and I do love him, but there are some things that I just cannot stand. Like his ideas on division of labor. For them, he was the breadwinner and father, while she was the homemaker, housekeeper, and mother. Personally, I don’t feel this adds up. But whatever.
Comment by Elina — June 28, 2009 @ 3:47 am
Eris - See you next tuesday.
Comment by ... — June 28, 2009 @ 3:43 pm
Did anyone help Farmer John? If he can work X acres in Y hours, his wife better do the same number of acres even if it takes twice as long. It is about equality.
After a long day of surgery or working 3 days straight, my physician brother and brother-in-law are expected to do dishes? They actually spend quality time with their spouses on dates, etc…
Since no one wants to talk economics, can someone provide their tool for measuring fairness in a marriage?
How many of you go thru a quarterly review? Do you have due dates placed on you by superiors? Could you be part of a reduction in force? Are you audited? Do you have to concern yourself with gov regs that could land you in jail? I ask: How many of you could do your spouses job, especially if is a highly skilled job? Jobs that can be done with little education or value creation receive small compensation.
Comment by ... — June 28, 2009 @ 4:00 pm
ewww, is our friend triple -dot kidding? from whence this nut-o assumption that male=white collar, female=sahm? there is too much wrong with everything you said to even address.
triple-dot, you are an angry little man, projecting all kinds of insecurity and resentment that are so not relevant to a healthy discussion.
please get better.
Comment by crazywomancreek — June 28, 2009 @ 4:09 pm
cwc, what’s the piont in having a healthy discussion when you can just play the victim card? Triple-dot is a white male, don’t you know that’s the most disadvantaged group in society today? Poor darling, I think we should all band together and have some sort of a fundraising event to support white men, because they are sooooooo hard done by.
But triple dot should know that he’s officially on-notice. Twice now you’ve subtly threatened people. You should know that cyber-bullying is a crime, and even though you are terribly victimised, I am not above reporting your sorry ass.
Comment by Quimby — June 28, 2009 @ 4:29 pm
Quimby,
Recognize that things will never be equal when it comes to healthy discussions because women just don’t ’see’ logic.
Comment by Peter LLC — June 28, 2009 @ 4:45 pm
nice one, Peter. And you’re right, I should have qualified it. But I’m sure men and women alike can see that triple-dot is a pathetic cowardly troll.
Comment by Quimby — June 28, 2009 @ 4:46 pm
Comment by Peter LLC — June 28, 2009 @ 4:59 pm
ha ha ha- that was genuinely funny, Peter! 2-shay.
I have been staying out of this discussion because I remember how irked I was in a child-raising thread when someone commented that they had raised darling, independent children without a struggle. That comment made me want to puke in my shoes.
So while this is not my struggle, having a feminist mate who makes the time to do equitable housework, I will say that neither one of us is particularly tidy. My girlfriends were (very flatteringly) marveling over how I managed to do all the things I did (this was election season, I was a National delegate, ran a business and traveled a lot with my baby) and it really made me think about how I used my time differently than other people. The biggest difference I could think of was I just don’t do that much housework. It’s actually HUGE. My house isn’t crazy-messy, we’d host any of you at the drop of a hat…we just may scramble for an hour to sweep that floor, wipe down that counter etc…first. So I’m comfortable with what we’ve got and grateful for the time to do other things that I care about more.
Comment by crazywomancreek — June 28, 2009 @ 5:11 pm
Quimby - take the first letter of the phonetic spelling of the phrase. She refers to me as a troll and I refer to her as a… No MENSA down under?
Comment by ... — June 28, 2009 @ 5:18 pm
Triple-dot, just go away.
Comment by Stephanie — June 28, 2009 @ 5:55 pm
Um, is anyone else concerned that triple-dot is planning on seeing me next Tuesday? Please don’t ban until I know who I’m supposed to be looking for and when!?
Comment by Eris — June 28, 2009 @ 7:07 pm
Eris, I wondered about that. I read your comment trying to figure out if I was missing something. I figured you must know each other. Wrong assumption! That is scary. Triple-dot, are you stalking or threatening Eris, or are you just letting her know that you are someone she already knows?
Comment by Stephanie — June 28, 2009 @ 7:20 pm
Oy-yoy. I’m sure Quimby or one of the other perma’s is on this. I don’t care if her knows her or not, that’s creepy, threatening and insanely pathetic.
Now, back to the topic: I always love it when the Ethicist does updates. So, mfranti, do you have an update for us? Or are you having such a fun time with G that this is all a distant memory? I hope you didn’t take her to the DI, some memories should be sacred…
Comment by crazywomancreek — June 28, 2009 @ 8:35 pm
I emailed Quimby because I don’t want to feed the troll, but Eris you’re not in any danger. That comment was a juvenile way of calling you a name that is often a derogatory way to refer to a female sex organ, without getting flagged by the censors.
Don’t worry, you’re not being stalked, just harassed by an internet jackass who will hopefully be kicked out of here.
Comment by reese — June 28, 2009 @ 9:03 pm
Reese:
Thanks! How did I miss that? I guess it’s because I’m not a 13 year-old boy.
Comment by Eris — June 28, 2009 @ 9:08 pm
Geez, I’m gone for one day and someone is writing nasty things to Eris! Just watch the protective mama bear instinct kick in!
Re 78 and 79: Eris, I considered commenting on this thread and describing my previous life with the OCD ex-husband. Yes, those were terrible years that left scars on all of us. I bear some of the blame because I went along with it for 11 years when I should have known better.
Household chores are presently divided up in our home according to ability due to his physical handicap. He does the things that I dislike the most. I wash the clothes, he folds, I put away. He loads the dishwasher, unloads to the countertop and I put them away. We both know that I would never unload it. He scrubs the sinks, toilets and countertops in the house, I do everything that is floor or high up. It is a unique system that works for us.
Until three years ago we had a housekeeper, even after I quit working full time (he retired 16 years ago). Two weeks ago he kindly asked me if it was time to find another housekeeper. That was a gentle hint and I needed it. On the other hand, I know that if I had said yes we would have one here tomorrow.
My house is clean but not to the OCD degree that I once lived with. Right now there are spots on the faucet handles and I will still sleep soundly tonight. I watch my neighbor who admits that she has this disorder and it sends chills down my spine.
Now I will pull in my mama bear claws and hope that triple-dot will go back to the dark ages where he belongs.
Comment by Numi — June 28, 2009 @ 10:23 pm
whoa….
a whole lot happened while i was away. someone wanna tell me about it?
and eris, that troll tried to scare me too by mentioning some numbers that are personal to me.
scary stuff.
Comment by mfranti — June 28, 2009 @ 10:48 pm
Re: #69.
mfranti,
It’s one thing to discuss “My husband does this” or “My husband does that”. It’s quite another thing entirely to discuss “Men do this” and “Men do that”, which many of the comments seemed to have done.
FWIW, my feelings aren’t hurt.
Comment by Kim Siever — June 29, 2009 @ 10:11 am
I’ve been thinking about triple-dot/Farmer John’s comments regarding the assumption that equality of labor means dividing it right down the middle, so that a woman would be expected to do heavy physical labor to make her the equal of a man. I don’t know that this is really true. There are obviously physical differences between men and women. Gender roles are too often based on inflated assumptions about sex differences. Because women can give birth, they must be more capable of nurturing. Because most men are stronger and larger than most women, they must lack gentleness. And so on. But there are some obvious physical differences and it’s simply commonsensical to recognize them.
In a similar vein, I have a real talent for putting my kids to bed. I can have them both asleep in ten minutes flat. But my partner requires upwards of two hours to get them to sleep. Would it be right for me to insist that my partner continue to put the kids to bed every other day, even if he’s not very good at it, in the name of “equality”?
I don’t feel bad asking my partner to do some heavy lifting. If he’s better at it, it’s primarily because of sex, not “gender.” Even if it’s not because of sex difference, he has years of heavy lifting, working out, cycling, building, and so on, while I have years of cushy academic work and shapeless arms to show for it. Would it be right for me to insist on doing at least as much heavy lifting, in the name of “equality,” even if I injure myself in the process?
Common sense dictates that equality in relationships is a process rather than a goal. We might be doing some separate duties - he takes out the trash, I sweep the floor, he cleans the tub, I scrub the toilet - but we try to make an equal effort in what we’re doing. We don’t have clearly divided roles that cleanly divide our duties - Caretaking Mother, Working Father. Instead we blend, complement, inform each other. We both take care of the home. We both work. We both change diapers. We both take care of the kids. In these overarching projects, we are equal, or at least we work really damn hard to be equal. But within these individual projects, we might have different tasks that sometimes might look very disparate. He carries more bags of soil. Actually, he carries almost all of them. Carrying a 50-lb. bag of soil could put me out of commission for a week. I take care of the plants more often. Actually, I do almost all of it. It’s not a labor-intensive job, but it does require a keen eye and a good memory. We are equally committed to supporting each other in this project, but we have different tasks according to our interests, talents and abilities. I wouldn’t want anybody to apply this practice of equality in a broader cultural or legal context, but within a household, I’m pretty sure this is how equality plays out for most people.
Comment by Chandelle — June 29, 2009 @ 10:58 am
mfranti, My husband and I just had this discussion last night. After the partial yelling/nagging/talking, I thought maybe we need to make a list of what our expectations are of each other. What he wants me to do to support him, love him, and respect him and what I want him to do as well. Then we bring our lists together and talk about them.
But sister…. I totally hear ya! Loud and clear, and loud, and clear, and why for the love of God can you not tell that there is crap all over the counter, and that under that crap is a sticky mess for the ice cream shake you made last night… why?
Breath….
So, ya… I am going to go back now and read the comments. Great post!
Comment by Sunshine — June 29, 2009 @ 11:56 am
spank me mfranti.
Comment by G — June 29, 2009 @ 6:47 pm
[…] I was reading through the recent FMH thread on housework I was struck by how many people seemed reluctant to talk to, and more especially to ask […]
Pingback by Patterns « The Exponent — June 30, 2009 @ 12:47 am
Not too long ago I invested in some pretty underthings in an attempt to cue my brain to focus on “special time” with DH. Long story short, on Saturday I mentioned that I was all out of lacy unmentionables and poof- within an hour or two the laundry was magically done. Maybe I should start hiding panties in his piles of clutter…
Comment by Let's not embarrass the DH — June 30, 2009 @ 2:42 pm
I guess that’s the “Rewards” system at work!
Comment by Mike H. — June 30, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
Hockey gear, bicycle helmet, are you also married to a 10 year old boy! Wink- I have similiar man-boy items, such as repelling gear and spread around my home and it drives me crazy! I have found that creating little spaces/nooks for him to land these items has helped keep them off of my dining room table… but it’s true, there is little equality when it comes to domestic responsibility in the home. Women basically work three full time jobs in raising kids, and managing/cleaning a home while working a 9-5.
I have to admit though, when I visit a friends home, I am totally judging them based on how dirty/clean it is. I’m not talking about a little clutter, but if it is seriously dirty I think; “If I can do this, why can’t she?” Eventually I get around to “why doesn’t her spouse help out more?” But I first judge her.It’s not fair, but I do and I think others do as well.
One of my favorite signs ever was on a road trip, in a little dive restaurant in the desert, the sign said, “Your momma doesn’t work here!” I loved it, I want one for every room in my house!
Comment by Travelin' pants — July 14, 2009 @ 12:06 am
heard this joke yesterday
“The dirtiest thing our home is my wife’s brain”
Comment by maureen — August 10, 2009 @ 11:04 pm