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1. I actually run my business out of my house and my wife works so I have my child all day. A couple times i have thought about going to our ward play group but decided against it because i didn’t want any of the women or their husbands to feel weirded out by a guy at playgroup with their wives.

   And if I’m being honest, most of the women in the playgroup are pretty attractive and so there is a part of me that doesn’t want to go there and put myself in a position to be dealing with the issue (especially during the summer when the most popular playgroup activity is the pool)

   Comment by Citizen — July 13, 2009 @ 12:23 am

2. all my close guy friends are gay. it works.

   Comment by blue — July 13, 2009 @ 12:29 am

3. I’m in pretty much the same boat as you are. The few guy friends that I actaully have now live far away so the main form of communication is email etc…. no risk factors there and less potential for guilt.

   As far as playgroup goes… I WISH more guys would go!

   Comment by April — July 13, 2009 @ 12:39 am

4. This is actually one thing that really annoys me about Mormon culture. Guys talk to guys, girls talk to girls, and anyone who crosses those boundaries freaks everyone out, because “something might happen”. Grr. The only guy-friends I really have these days are a couple of single guys I was friends with before I got married (and yes, my husband knows — they’ve even come and stayed at our house). I’ve also found that the one consistent thing in the good “couple” friends my husband and I have made since we’ve been married is that we both get along with and can talk with either the husband or the wife, and vice versa. It makes for much easier and better relationships when you don’t feel like you have to walk on eggshells with one of the people there.

   Comment by Vada — July 13, 2009 @ 12:45 am

5. Growing up and through college, most of my friends were guys. Much of that has to do with the fact that I was a tom boy and ended up in technology. I love having man friends just like I love having girl friends; I think it’s sad when people always try to make it mean so much more. I had a colleague who worked on a consulting project with me and wouldn’t drive to the client site with me in case someone saw us getting out of the same car. At 10:00 in the morning. Doing work. I even get strange looks when I talk with some of the men in my ward at church.

   Now that I’m married, I still have lots of man friends, but most of the LDS ones ‘excuse’ themselves unless their wives are around. Which of course means we can’t ever talk about stuff we used to talk about, like consulting and technology, because their wives don’t understand and get bored. So I have to talk about their kids. Sigh. And I’m bitter about losing best friends I had for over a decade because they got married and their wife won’t let them talk (or email, or openly facebook) me. Luckily, DH understands and doesn’t mind if I do lunch with a male colleague.

   Comment by that1girl — July 13, 2009 @ 12:55 am

6. I’m a convert of 8 years and this is totally one of the things I can’t get used to in Mormon culture. I’ve always had tons of guy friends. I’m single and female. I get positively weirded out by the thought that I’m some sort of danger to the married guys or to the missionaries. I don’t have any romantic interest in married men. But the people who share my favorite hobbies and my idea space are majority guys. I hang out with mostly guys all day at work. I feel a lot less comfortable with groups of women, because they have tons of unspoken rules that I don’t get so I’m sure I’m constantly breaking them. I know groups of girls almost always quickly decide they don’t care for me much. I have had many many friends who were female, but almost always individually and not in groups. Also, most of my female close friends have been somewhat geeky and tomboyish like me.

   So I’ve made good friends with a few of the elders, including the ones who baptized me, despite being treated as semi-toxic this way. I made really good friends with a couple of missionary sisters who both happened to be somewhat bookish, independent, and strong willed, so we got along great. I’ve made good friends online with a number of LDS sisters and brothers both. But in actual church, other than one home teacher who got to be a good friend, I don’t find it easy to make friends. This is mainly (I think) because I’m a lot more comfortable in either mixed groups, or groups of all guys than I am in groups of women. And I’m held in a sort of purdah by this weird gender-segregated culture we have.

   I sure would like to know how to fix it, other than scandalize the whole ward and ruin the reputations of any brothers I make friends with. Do you guys have any ideas?

   Comment by Tatiana — July 13, 2009 @ 1:02 am

7. This is really interesting for me. I grew up typically having more guy friends than girl. Well, since I got married to my DH 7 months ago, moved from CA to Idaho to finish our schooling, I have had a truly hard time making new connections. I know it sounds odd, but I have sort of found it easier to initiate friendships with males throughout my life. I’m just not sure how to deal with it or how best to integrate myself into groups of women. I am working on it.

   Anyway, in one of my classes, there is one other married student who is a male. We became friends in class, introduced our spouses on a double date, and decided to partner up on an upcoming project. We have met thus far this semester twice, in the library, to study and put together research. We encountered another girl from our class the other day, as we were exiting the library, where we were met by my friend’s wife. As our classmate came out, she ran over to us and giggled that she had seen my friend lean in to kiss his wife and thought that it was me. She of course realized her mistake, but felt the need to tell us of her alarm and said, “I was thinking that you two were kissing, and I was so worried that was going to happen since you guys are friends and study together! I am glad you’ve proved me wrong!”

   Ugh, sorry about this long personal story, but I just find it sort of counterproductive when encouraging appropriate boundaries between married folks and their friends or neighbors of the opposite sex to basically insinuate that boundaries don’t matter and that if they are friends they are bound to end up doing something awful. What do you guys think?

   Comment by Whitney — July 13, 2009 @ 1:19 am

8. When some of you ask for opinions from “guys”, I don’t if you mean males, or people in general here.

   This is a very tricky situation. I’ve mothers of some of the YW flip because I’ve chit-chatted a little with the YW in a social setting. Yet, I’ve also felt uncomfortable the few times I’ve traveled more than a few miles with just one woman, unrelated, in the car.

   So, are we supposed to do like they do in Islam, and have women in a separate room from the men at worship? And, I abhor the way single women are treat in many wards as enemies by married sisters.

   I do know that I do have to keep my contacts with other women under control, so I normally try to avoid going to lunch with a woman if it’s just 2 of us.

   If I get any type of crush feelings, I’m even more careful.

   Shelah’s story reminds me a little of one story where a husband, his wife, and the wife of a friend use to go jogging. The wife of the husband running had to drop out due to injury for a few weeks, and in the meantime, and relationship started, to the point of the husband claiming he had found the other woman as his “soul mate”. I believe this story was in “Between Ring and Temple”.

   About “soul mate”, it’s a term I hate since my Father’s “soul mate” turned out to be a home wrecker who cheated me & my siblings out of most of our inheritance. And, she put on a good song & dance for the local ward, to the point where we’ve been made out to be the evil ones for going the legal route just to get my Father’s Will carried out, a will she even freely rewrote after his death, not ethical at all.

   Comment by Mike H. — July 13, 2009 @ 2:20 am

9. Since I’m in YSA, friendships between the sexes are… encouraged, to say the least. And in my ward, people are fine with me talking to their husbands. Why? Because most of the people who I know have trouble believing that I’ve grown up. I was born here, and most of the men that I know watched me grow up. In their minds (and their wives’ minds), I’m still the little girl who had an imaginary pony that I rode to sunbeams.

   The few men who I know who are newer to the ward are still significantly older than me. Most of them I met either through work (literally everyone at my old job was either from my ward or related to my boss) or a friendship with their wife. None of them have ever even indicated that they’re uncomfortable with my friendship with their husbands.

   Interestingly, I did some nanny work for one woman for a while. When she was telling me about the job, she told me that she would be there when I arrived, and that I could go home when her husband got home. She was quick to assure me that her husband was fine, and that I didn’t need to be nervous around him. Why did she need to say this? I really don’t know.

   Comment by Elina — July 13, 2009 @ 2:27 am

10. I prefer friends who can stand a good theology or apologetics discussion. I don’t care about the gender, but it’s usually men who like to hash out theological doctrine and apologetics, so most of my friends have been male. While I was dating my husband, he was a dance major and I had plans to shoot for a PhD, so we worked out early on that most of his friends were going to be women and most of my friends would be men, and we were okay with this.

    Before I was married, I easily befriended single men, but things were a bit quirkier around married men. Now it’s the opposite: I’m more likely to have problems being friends with single, never-married men, though I still have my share of those. I think it’s a bit easier when each of us knows that the other has someone else there whom they’re committed to.

    Sexual tension? Meh. I’m of the opinion that there’s nothing wrong with noticing when other men are attractive, and I don’t mind if my husband notices when other women are attractive, just as long as that’s as far as it goes. My husband does roll his eyes sometimes when he catches Bloggernacle regulars saying flirtatious things to me, but he consoles himself with the fact that he’s the one sleeping with me.

    Speaking of which, funny story: my husband took a trip to Iowa via airplane in May to visit his family with our toddler in tow. It’s kind of a pain to be taking your toddler through the airport with a carry-on and no stroller, so for every connecting flight and such, he would just begin struggling with our daughter across the terminal until an attractive young woman approached him and offered to help with his baby. Worked every time.

    I was waiting for him at the baggage claim when he returned from his trip and sure enough, he approached me with an attractive woman tagging along behind him carrying our daughter. As he introduced me as his wife, I saw a flash of surprise in her eyes and she departed pretty soon after the introduction.

    “You didn’t tell her you were married until she met me, did you?”

    “Nope.”

    “You’re evil.”

    “Yup.”

    Poor woman. Unlike the other women he tricked, this one was from the area and had actually been hoping to ask him out or something. Sucked to be her. I guess women really do dig single daddies.

    Comment by Bridget Jack Meyers — July 13, 2009 @ 2:38 am

11. OOOOOH i hate this!

    I am perfectly aware of sexual tension between the sexes. Tension does not however = infidelity. You choose to go that route. Boys and men are awesome. I am surrounded by them , as I am the only girl in the house. I tend to relate well to men, and ofen prefer their comany. So why should I avoid their friendship? My husband gets jealous at times, but all of my male friends respect him. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t be my friends, duh.
    Am I attracted to men other than my husband? Well… In my 8 years of marriage I have met one guy that I felt a tingle for. I ended that “friendship” before it became any sort of temptation because I am a grown up, not a teenager ruled by hormonal attraction. I know when I am treading in dangerous territory.
    Are other men attracted to me? I’m sure they are, yet I don’t cower in fear. I am not worried about it. Generally, my friends won’t rape me. A basic tenant of friendship in my book. If married men look at me, want me, and try to initiate a sexual relationship without provocation, then I will decline ( again a symptom of a healthy marriage) and encourage them to examine their marriage (ie talk to their wife). At that point the friendship will often end.
    Does this happen often? NO! Men are not predators. They are dudes, more often than not what you see is what you get. I value a male perspective, enjoy straight forward attitudes, and uncomplicated mind sets. I would be severely limiting myself by excluding friends due to gender. By 50% actually.

    Comment by just call me cassandra — July 13, 2009 @ 5:33 am

12. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID! I hate this paranoia about the opposite sex. I feel sorry for professional women in Utah. They must get excluded from a lot. Forget the glass ceiling — they’re in a glass kennel. One of my best friends is a married Mormon guy. He was a the only other Mormon in my law school class. We naturally became friends. Some of my other great friends are married guys from work. I live in MA. I can’t imagine not having these really fun friendships. .

    Platonic relationships can remain platonic. If you become attracted to the other person in a sexual/lovey way, then it’s time to break off the friendship. We all intuitively know when it’s dangerous. I have always hated the “it just happened” bull___. That ruins it for the rest of us. I SO agree with cassandra.

    Shelah, that was an artificial guilt trip you were experiencing. Don’t let it get you down next time.

    Comment by Andrea — July 13, 2009 @ 8:17 am

13. BTW, my husband’s boss is a woman, many of his collegues are women, and women report to him. He goes to lunch with them all the time. How weird would that be if he was worried about being seen with them? Complete career stranglehold.

    Comment by Andrea — July 13, 2009 @ 8:30 am

14. “if I can’t have missionaries in my home unless my husband is around (despite the fact that I’m approaching being old enough to be their mothers…that seems to send a pretty clear message that friendship isn’t exactly encouraged.” Really? Because that is not even close to what I get from that rule. I think using this example really weakens the argument you are trying to make here.

    Comment by mike — July 13, 2009 @ 8:54 am

15. Really Mike? Because what I get from that rule is that all unsupervised relationships between a married woman and a single man (or two people not married to each other, or a single woman and a married man) have the potential to be sexual and should therefore be discouraged. When the elders show up and my husband is still on his way home from work, I feel like Mrs. Robinson if I invite them to come in. It seems to have the potential to sexually charge what I’d otherwise see as a completely innocent relationship.

    Comment by Shelah — July 13, 2009 @ 9:04 am

16. Love this discussion. Let me bring something else to the table.

    I live a 12-step life (sober 12+years now) and as such I’ve worked with a few sponsors. A sponsor is someone who walks their sponsee (old AA word for a sponsee is pidgeon) through the steps as fast or as slow as he or she is willing to do the work. Understand, it takes guts and fortitude to complete a “fearless and moral inventory” of yourself. Consequently, AA (in general) strongly suggests that women work with women and men work with men. Exceptions…. for the gay or lesbian alcoholic - the opposite holds true. If someone is a real hardcase *cough* a real low-bottom dude can work with a woman, and in most cases their wife would work with her as well.

    Ok, I admit - too complicated, too much information, too twisty. At the end of the day, I choose not to put myself in a position that could make my life partner suspicious on any level - for my sobriety it’s very important I do that.

    btw - I will enjoy the special treat of Elina’s imaginary pony taking her to Sunbeams. sooo precious.

    make it a great one sisters and brothers.

    Comment by Mary Magdalene — July 13, 2009 @ 9:12 am

17. I don’t know that this is a Mormon thing per se. I tend to think that the friendships between people of opposite genders have to be somewhat curtailed in the interest of protecting a marriage in any religion. And this isn’t because some people might accidentally get tempted and have sex.

    There is a level of intimacy that I think belongs between a couple that is more than just only having sex with each other, but also only having inside jokes with each other, giving each other time before others, etc.

    Not that people don’t need outside friends, but if my husband were leaning on, joking with, spending time with a woman even if I knew there were NO attraction at all, I would be hurt and I would feel as if something were being taken from us.

    That said, we both have friends of opposite genders at work and have, as a couple determined what an appropriate level of intimacy is for us with those friends (because I really think this is not a question of right and wrong but a question of a protecting the relationship so it has to be a couple to couple decision as far as what is “ok” in outside friendships).

    Overall, our non-work friends, or our “real life” friends are people we share. His friends I can joke with a tad, my friends he can talk to, other couples, etc. For us it would be highly innapropriate for one of us to schedule any time or have any off the radar chats with an opposite gendered person. That’s not sexist, that’s not overbearing church teaching, that’s we as a couple feel safe with and give each other.

    Comment by Zara — July 13, 2009 @ 9:38 am

18. funny…all my girl friends end up becoming friends with my wife (even better friends).

    Comment by CJ Douglass — July 13, 2009 @ 10:02 am

19. I dunno. Based on a number of recent experiences dealing with marital infidelity (not my own), I’ve rashly concluded that a lot Mormons are simply incapable of inter-gender platonic friendship. (Sidebar: my favorite of these deals with a man and woman who fell in love while playing Mary and Joseph in their stake Christmas pageant. Awesome!)

    I wonder if something about our culture keys some of us up to feel romantic love earlier in a relationship, or towards more people, than is normal in most contexts.

    I’m not a fan of broad-sweeping rules, like one stake I heard of that “banned” Facebook because of this very problem. Rules that are broken innocently, mistakenly, or without malicious intent can needlessly set off alarms and create difficult situations in a marriage where perhaps no problem exists.

    But it is important to be in touch with your feelings, deal honestly with yourself and your spouse, and discipline yourself to stay away from people or situations that you know may become problematic for you. I’m pretty sure that means different things for different people.

    Comment by mpb — July 13, 2009 @ 10:04 am

20. Silly silly silly. Before I got married I had a few close girlfriends, but mostly a ton of guy friends. The guys I was friends with outside of church have pretty much stuck around– we don’t live close any more, but when we happen to be in the same city DH encourages me to go out with said friends like we used to– chatting at a coffee shop, book browsing, to the movies, whatever– without him. He doesn’t know these guys, but he knows I miss having that intellectual companionship (with someone other than him) and often have more in common with these old friends than he and I do. DH is also basically the least jealous guy on earth, luckily, so neither of us think anything of it and I think it has been good for these friends of mine to see that although I did fall into the “trap” they were all worried about (getting married young out in Provo) I am still essentially the same person.

    Howeverrrrr, my guy friends I made in college (BYU and BYU-I) are completely paranoid. One guy always asks DH’s permission to stay in the house with me if DH has to leave. DH thinks this is ridiculous and tells him so, but nevertheless, he once refused to so much as come over and drop off a movie when DH wasn’t home. Another guy got home from his mission and called me to say hi, but asked me right away if it was ok that we were talking (and wasn’t even joking). That’s the single LDS guys, though. The married ones seem less paranoid, but usually their wives are nearby when we see each other.

    I don’t think this is the case, but I think the paranoia gives off the aura of insecurity. If DH cared who I hung out with I would feel like he maybe didn’t trust me. DH is pretty antisocial so he doesn’t have a lot of other friends than me, but there is one girl who introduced us to each other we are both still close to and she is into the outdoorsy stuff he likes much more than I am. I often tell him he should invite her to go hiking or biking, whatever he wants to do that I want to get out of. I don’t much care what the church says on this subject because I think it is ridiculous. If you trust each other, it’s a non-issue.

    That said, making friends of the opposite gender who you weren’t friends with before you got married is a little harder. Somehow that does feel a little different than being friends with people you knew before. I have made some casual acquaintances in various classes, but they usually only go so far as a few facebook messages about homework. I kind of always feel like I’m wasting a guy’s time, you know? Most guys my age at school are single and not all that interested in hanging out with a married chick. And I can’t blame them. When I’m not at school I’m mostly changing diapers these days, so… yeah, I’m not that fun.

    Comment by Alyssa — July 13, 2009 @ 10:05 am

21. “This is actually one thing that really annoys me about Mormon culture.”

    I’ve seen this in other contexts other than Mormon culture. Last week I told my (non-member) secretary that she should get a vendor to give her a free lunch, since he treated me to a nice place in spite of the fact that she makes all the buying decisions. We had a half-hour conversation about how she wants to cultivate trust with her spouse and her feeling uncomfortable having a one-on-one meal with someone she’s not married to.

    I told her all that was well and fine, but the guy was offering a free lunch.

    No dice.

    Comment by jimbob — July 13, 2009 @ 10:15 am

22. I think it all boils down to communication. I worked in a male dominated field before I was a SAHM. I talked with my husband about the people at work like I did before we were married. We joked about how “friendly” some guys were despite the wedding ring and seeing my husband about at work (we worked in adjacent buildings).

    I think as long as you are only doing things with these guys that you wouldn’t mind your DH seeing you do, then there is no problem.

    Neglecting your spouse for friends doesn’t always happen for those of the opposite sex. What about the guys that are always hanging out with their friends while the wife is home alone or with the kids? What about the women who talk to their girl friends about their struggles, but don’t mention them to their husbands? While these kinds of things usually don’t have the potential for an adulterous relationship, they aren’t really helping the marriage either.

    I think we get too hyped up about sex. We should be able to have relationships with members of a gender not our own. I understand the need for caution, but it has to happen at an individual level. Making blanket statements about not having male friends or being alone with a man (which is sometimes necessary), creates a level of paranoia that is palatable at times. I feel much more comfortable around men that are not Mormon in work situations because of this.

    Comment by queenlucy — July 13, 2009 @ 10:21 am

23. I’m a believer in having platonic friendships of whatever sex. My wife and I have some very different interests. I’m into scholarship and go to conferences she has zero interest in; she is into art and music with a passion and in ways that far surpass my casual interest. So we each have some separate friendships. She just spent three days in Minnesota with two of her guy friends. I’m not threatened by this in any way whatsoever. Conversely, I sometimes have dinner alone with female friends or colleagues at conferences, and she is perfectly fine with that.

    I think maybe part of my attitude derives the area of the law I work in (public finance), which has a lot of women and I have long worked in close relationships with female colleagues. It’s never been a problem.

    I do have a flirtacious sense of humor, so I suppose I have the potential to get myself into trouble with some spouse who doesn’t understand that particular quirk in my personality. But anyone who makes the effort to actually get to know me will figure out that I’m pretty harmless.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — July 13, 2009 @ 10:35 am

24. This is one topic that drives me absolutely nuts. I work outside the home in a male dominated career, so at work, I am surrounded by men. The norm is me and a room of other men - sometimes another woman, but not always. Yes, Yes, Yes!! Men and women can be friends! And guess what? When I was in sales & marketing positions, I traveled with co-workers and wasn’t tempted to hop in bed with them. My goodness it drives me nuts. (can you tell?)

    I love my girlfriends, but sometimes a male perspective is appreciated. Some of my best mentors over the years have been male. On the other side, my husband works with many women and has good friendships with them. Very sad that we don’t seem to have the capability to do the same in the church.

    Now, that said…. one of my best guy friends at work is training for a half ironman and is worried about the running part. He wanted me to do some of his long runs with him. My husband wasn’t too happy about that…. he prefers to keep my half naked body to himself. And I can respect that - that’s fine - I would much rather keep my husband happy than help my friend train

    Comment by lyn — July 13, 2009 @ 10:39 am

25. […] at FMH recently posted about having opposite-sex friends in Mormon culture. I wonder how much my culture plays a part in […]

    Pingback by Our Thoughts » Blog Archive » Mormons and opposite-sex friends — July 13, 2009 @ 10:48 am

26. I definitely struggle with this issue. My partner is a Waldorf teacher, a profession that is possibly even more dominated by women than regular teaching. Last here he had a very pretty, interesting, intelligent assistant in his classroom and I was a bit concerned. He told me that if I couldn’t feel comfortable with this situation, he was going to have to find a different profession, because it was unlikely that he’d ever work with men. Ultimately I realized that if I was suspicious all the time, our relationship would fracture. Trust puts one in a vulnerable position, but it should still be the default.

    Now my partner is two hours away staying in a friend’s house for three weeks while he finishes his teacher training. This friend is an attractive, interesting, intelligent single mother. Frankly, when I told my parents about this situation, they flipped their lid. And I can’t say that I haven’t wondered myself - late nights, and sometimes they drink together, and so on - it seems ultra-risky. But again, I can’t relent on the trust issue. If I don’t have trust for my partner, everything else falls apart.

    There’s a certain ownership implied in a committed relationship. It means things like, “I own your body and nobody else gets to see or touch parts of it that belong to me.” Some men are so proprietary they won’t even allow their wives to get Pap smears. Some women won’t allow their husbands to work out with other women. I recently read of a popular pastor who is never alone in a room with a woman other than his wife, lest rumors start to fly or temptations are aroused.

    I do understand this fear. I’ve been attracted to other people while I’ve been with my partner. I’m sure he’s experienced the same thing. We’re open about this fact. It doesn’t have to be inherently threatening - it’s just biology. What separates us from other animals is our higher functioning - that we can make choices.

    It would break my heart if my partner was unfaithful. That “faith” to me means that he’s committed to our relationship, that he doesn’t use his heart or body in reckless ways and put my heart and body at risk. That commitment also means that if he falls in love with someone else, he’ll take his heart and body somewhere else after he ends our relationship. I have to trust that he’ll maintain this commitment. I’m not stupid - I know how the body can respond even when the mind and heart are repulsed. I know he’s in a high-risk situation. But I must have that trust, even if it fails me in the end.

    To me, relentless paranoia in a relationship is indicative of much more than just good common sense.

    Comment by Chandelle — July 13, 2009 @ 11:04 am

27. Oh - let me clarify my last point. I was trying to answer the question of how inter-gender relationships affect my marriage - I was not trying to comment on the OP of running with men…. it just happened that my most recent example of how inter-gender relationships affects my marriage was a running example!

    My point is that my husband and I talk about all our relationships. And if there is a lunch/situation/event that makes one of us uncomfortable, the other spouse respects that. Our marriage is more important than another other relationship we may have, and so we respect it.

    Comment by lyn — July 13, 2009 @ 11:19 am

28. I am a SAHM, and my best friend in the ward is a SAHD and we get our kids together at least once a week for play dates. Of course, both our spouses are comfortable with the situation but I think many people in our ward are not. My friend has been told he is not welcome at ward playgroups because he is a man, and told by several women that they do not feel comfortable hanging out with him and his kids without at least another person there. I guess I can respect where the other women are coming from but my friend is in a hard situation. He does not know any other stay at home dad’s and often feels isolated.

    Comment by Juniper — July 13, 2009 @ 11:24 am

29. I’m frustrated by this attitude in the church as well. I LIKE hanging around with guys. Most of my friends in high school were guys. Every time I try to joke around in the hall during church with men in the ward that seem like they’d be cool to hang out with, they sidle uncomfortably away. I want to scream, “I’M NOT FLIRTING WITH YOU!!” I think that by creating this barrier, i.e. that men and women not married to each other can’t teach the same class or can’t work closely together on a project for the church, instantly sexualizes a relationship that wasn’t sexual. Give me a break — just because I joke with you in the foyer before Sunday School does not mean that I want to go to bed with you! Give adult men and women in the church credit for not being sex-crazed hormonal monsters. We’re just people.

    Comment by Andrea R. — July 13, 2009 @ 11:40 am

30. Having two brothers, growing up around 8 boys and being former Army, I know that if there is any group I’m going to be comfortable around, it’s men. Among my friends since childhood, there was one stand-out and I became engaged to him…so, I’m not going to deny that there is the potential to cross into the sexual realm after years of platonic friendship. But, it was mutual and it was a choice. If either of us hadn’t been interested, I know we would have remained friends easily enough, because that is also a decision.

    I had to learn to be more comfortable around women, simply from lack of exposure- and I do find myself a lot more compatible with assertive, brainy/geeky individuals with open minds-and that’s true about the men I like too.

    I couldn’t marry a man who was so insecure that he couldn’t support life-long friendships I’ve held with males. If we wanted to be involved, we would have been. My dh works with a lot of women, his boss is a woman, and they have late dinners when they need to speak away from the office or get something done before a deadline. It’s not a problem. I expect him to remember he’s married and I do the same. I think an excellent indicator of something not being right is when either spouse hesitates to include their partners in the friendship. Fine if they aren’t interested, but they should know each other and have the opportunity to join in the relationship.

    My first husband did have an affair with a woman at work. Yes, there is the potential for a line to be crossed, but again, that should not mean that the hundreds of decent and above-board interactions should be thrown out just because some people misbehave and have difficulty understanding boundaries. That’s more a feature of immaturity as opposed to gender.

    Comment by Kimberly — July 13, 2009 @ 11:43 am

31. #23 Kevin Barney ~ I sometimes have dinner alone with female friends or colleagues at conferences, and [DW] is perfectly fine with that.

    I have it on good authority that some of these “female friends” you have meals alone with are fairly attractive and young enough to be your daughter.

    Scandalous.

    Comment by Bridget Jack Meyers — July 13, 2009 @ 11:58 am

32. There are far more men than woman in my field so quite frequently I will need to attend lunches, meetings, and interviews with other men or even just one man.
    But those interactions are mostly business related. How about outside of work? I developed friendships with a few business contacts so we will see each outside of a work, I carpool alone with a close guy friend because we go to the same school, I’ve had lunch with guy friends, studied at the library alone with guy friends, and I have a guy friend that I met up with occasionally at the gym. Most of these men are also married and just as comfortable with it.
    Having these platonic friendships is something I’m used to, I’m comfortable with it, and I encourage them. My husband is very aware and he does the same. To me it is about trust and honesty. If I were trying to hid the fact I was married during my interactions it would be a different story. And I can recognize when someone is looking for something more and when feelings are going in the wrong direction. My husband has the faith in me, and I likewise in him, that we will stop being alone with a person should that happen.
    I have always felt that the more you make something bad and forbidden, the more it will be desirable, so that is how I look at being alone with the opposite sex.

    Comment by Obee — July 13, 2009 @ 12:41 pm

33. My best friend in college was a guy. He was a groomsman at our wedding and a paul bearer at my dad’s funeral. And, he has gone on vacation with us (he had a serious girlfriend for those trips so it was like a double date vacation.) We moved two states away from him six years ago but we stay in touch.

    He is single now and coming to stay with me for a weekend soon. We are going to see our favorite band in concert. My husband will have left for our family vacation with all the aunts, uncles and cousins. The family vacay was planned AFTER I bought our concert tickets and made plans for his visit. I will spend 4 days with my friend and then join the family and my husband. He wanted to get to the vacation early to spend quality time with his parents and to ensure we get a good room in the rental house.

    This could look weird to an outsider. I am having a male friend stay with me while my husband is out of town. Little do they know, he is like a brother. Maybe I should just say he is a cousin or something.

    I do understand, though. We went to Disneyland with another couple and their two kids. At one point, my husband and the wife went on Matterhorn and the husband and I took the kids to Alice in Wonderland. I felt kind of weird for a second but decided if he were a cousin or a brother in law, I wouldn’t feel weird. So, he became a relative in my mind.

    Comment by Calidaho — July 13, 2009 @ 12:48 pm

34. I haven’t really made any guy friends since being a SAHM (excluding other couples that we are friends with). I did have a couple of good guy friends from college that I keep in touch with. With one guy, we were both single when we became friends (okay, and we kissed some). We are both married now and keep in touch. With another, we were both married and in business school when we became friends. We did our summer internships at the same company. We went out to lunch together frequently and got together in big groups. When we email, he always CCs his wife.

    I had a situation recently that I admit does make me a little uncomfortable. My husband is a scientist and has several female technicians who work for him. Last Friday they had some kind of drama between the three. My husband asked one to go for a walk with him to somewhere he needed to go, and she cried on his shoulder while he comforted her. This makes me uncomfortable. For one, he tried to explain to me what their deal was, and I said, “It sounds like it’s just stupid girl drama”. For two, I don’t really like the idea of women crying on my husband’s shoulder about stupid girl drama. I don’t even do that (not much into drama myself). Am I overreacting?

    Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2009 @ 12:50 pm

35. Jack no. 31, my first instinct was to deny that I am anywhere near old enough to be the father of the woman you so obliquely allude to in your comment. But given that that particular woman is the same age as my IRL daughter, whom she has even met, I decided it would be a lost cause.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — July 13, 2009 @ 12:56 pm

36. Here is a related thought not necessarily on opposite sex friends but on how they interact in another social situation. Have you ever noticed at a church social occasion where dancing is involved that spouses almost always dance only with each other? That was not the case for my parents generation and they were all good Mormons. It was expected that people would mix it up when dancing.

    Comment by cyclingred — July 13, 2009 @ 1:01 pm

37. cyclingred, I agree with your observation of generational differences at church dances. They used to mix it up much more than you see these days.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — July 13, 2009 @ 1:06 pm

38. About that tension–is it wrong that I am sometimes attracted to other men? Here is the deal: I sometimes get to know a man and feel a little chemistry. I have no interest in playing with that chemistry and I am totally in love with and attracted to my husband (and sometimes that elevation in whatever is going on is easily redirected to my hubby and I remember that first spark I felt for him that turned into a deep love).

    I kind of look at my past. All through college and before I was married, I had many, many crushes. That little spark that makes you want to get to know someone. I figure it is one of those natural chemical biological things and that it will fizzle out. It always does.

    I look at people who cheat and wonder if they feel that attraction and think that they need to pursue it–that maybe they think they got it wrong when they got married. I just fee like it’s biology doing its thing and with a little rational thought, you can restrain yourself until it passes. Am I the only one?

    Comment by Anon — July 13, 2009 @ 1:13 pm

39. Because I have always worked in male dominated professions, almost all of my friends are male. In addition, my recreational activiites are things like home improvement projects. I have never really fit in with the softer sex as well. Generally I don’t find that to be a problem. Many of my man friends seem to forget I am female (especially when I am working my chop saw). But I have recently had some issue with one man friend that seems to have a bit of a boundary violation problem. He knows that I have a boyfriend. But he still seems to be weaseling in. I discuss this openly with my boyfriend (I would suggest that you do the same with your spouse if you get any creepy vibes)… mostly to make sure I wasn;t over reacting. We both feel that this man friend is crossing some boundaries. So I am very careful — extra careful — with him. The funny thing is that this man has been a man friend for over 12 years and this behavior just barely started.

    I do think it is healthy to have friends of both genders. Just keep the boundaries clear. ANd don’t be surprised if you have to do that more than once or after a long period of time.

    Comment by StillConfused — July 13, 2009 @ 1:21 pm

40. Anon #38 — attraction is natural and normal. Similarly, you may look at a rich dessert and feel some physical responses. It is what you do with that feeling that matters. You seem to have a very healthy attitude and understand it for what it is.

    Comment by StillConfused — July 13, 2009 @ 1:23 pm

41. Of course, people also used to know real dances that had steps and whatnot If all you’re doing is sort of swaying together, it is perhaps harder to exchange partners.

    I’m not Mormon (but did once have a ridiculous conversation with a couple of missionaries whose transportation had broken down and yet wouldn’t get in a car with me, who at that point had been married for five years and had my 5-year-old niece in the car). I have to admit that I’m fairly mystified by these conventions. My brother (who is Mormon) once got one of his friends from church to give me a ride home from my softball game. I was 16 or so. The guy - who was almost old enough to be my father and was very much married and not even remotely an object of affection - made me ride in the back “so it wouldn’t look weird.” I thought it looked pretty weird!

    Comment by Beth — July 13, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

42. This is very stupid and I’ve never encountered it personally (I must be oblivious). I’m friends with guys, and while most of them were friends I made before I was married, that’s simply because I became chronically ill after getting married and haven’t had lots of opportunities for friendships outside of the online world. I’ve done things like go to events for my bird club with a guy by myself and neither myself nor my husband (nor the guy, considering he asked for a ride) thought anything of it.

    Interpreting the rules for missionaries and callings and stuff as being commandment outside of those specific callings is stupid. The rules are there because of /liability/. I’ve been in nursery and at our training meeting, my husband and I were instructed that we were never supposed to leave men alone in the room with the kids, there always needed to be a woman there. This is beyond stupid and highly insulting of the men in our church, but I guess it’s a byproduct of our litigious society.

    My husband doesn’t really have girl friends, but he doesn’t really have friends other than me period since we got married. He’s a pretty self-contained guy anyway and I provide what friendship he needs apparently. I fuss over it sometimes, but he tells me he’s fine with it, so whatever.

    Comment by Firebyrd — July 13, 2009 @ 1:56 pm

43. Oh, and Zara? You are not limited to the number of jokes you can have in a lifetime. I don’t see how joking around with a friend can possibly take something away from your relationship with your husband. Do you refuse to have woman friends too? ‘Cause I know I joke with mine.

    Comment by Firebyrd — July 13, 2009 @ 2:01 pm

44. About six weeks ago, I was giving a message in primary as part of their sharing time, and I happened to see a little boy with his face buried in his knees, which he’d pulled up to his chest. His chest was shuddering, and it was clear he was trying to hide his sobs from those around him. I didn’t give it too much of a thought, as this isn’t all that uncommon a scene, but then he raised his face. These were no run-of-the-mill tears. This kid was hurting. His unfocused eyes were looking down a dark tunnel, and his fear had long since turned into despair. I knew what that look meant, and it made it very difficult for me to finish my message.

    Last week, the ward found out that boy’s parents were divorcing.

    I only bring this up because when it comes to evaluating risk, it’s not just the likelihood of an event that matters, but the magnitude of the consequences. I think it’s well and good to have friends of both sexes. But marriage can be very difficult, and when it is, the risk can be truly great.

    I’d say that when it comes to being friends with someone of the opposite sex, it’s really only safe when one or both parties finds the other vaguely sexually repulsive, or if both parties are in very committed, healthy relationships.

    Chandelle, #26, I really can’t judge, and there may be no better arrangement, but if I were your husband, I wouldn’t want to put myself in a situation that would test your trust in that way.

    Comment by Martin — July 13, 2009 @ 2:05 pm

45. Hello, a guy here. I have always had more girl friends than guy friends. In college, I had one or two guy friends, but mostly hung out with the girls.

    When I married, it was a hard adjustment. Married mormon men can’t just call up single mormon women, or other married mormon women. I lost touch with countless friends. I have one or two guy friends at church, but feel I miss out on many potential friendships. There is a “wall” at church between the sexes.

    Shelah, I’ve commented to my wife a number of times that I prefer women running partners!

    Comment by Paul — July 13, 2009 @ 2:08 pm

46. Andrea R. (#29):

    “just because I joke with you in the foyer before Sunday School does not mean that I want to go to bed with you!”

    Amen!

    Comment by Paul — July 13, 2009 @ 2:09 pm

47. A funny story about this issue:

    My 2L summer in law school, I summered at a law firm that had really good summer activities — lots and lots of summer associate events, dinner and a Broadway show, tickets for two, bring your significant other if you’d like. So I took Mardell to dinner and Broadway show with attorneys from the firm, multiple times.

    Not all firms were this generous. P. was at a less generous firm, which gave _him_ tickets to all sorts of events, but didn’t include tickets for his wife. And so he went to shows all summer, while his wife S got more and more annoyed about it. She had an advanced degree in vocal performance and was someone who would really appreciate a show, and she got to hear about all of the other law student wives going to event after event. Mardell and S were very good friends, and Mardell heard the complaints regularly.

    At the end of July, Mardell and the kids flew back to Arizona for a few weeks vacation. A few days later, I got an e-mail from the firm — another dinner/show event, that weekend. I mentioned it to M later that day, and said I’d just be telling them that I didn’t need the second ticket, because I’d just go solo.

    At which point M said, “no, you have to take S.” I said something like “huh?” (I hadn’t heard all of the complaints, and had no idea why I should take S), and M gave me the background, and then repeated, “you _have_ to take S.” I told her that I’d be happy taking S., but that I didn’t want to call her up myself and ask her to dinner and a show. M said that she’d set everything up. And she did.

    Coincidentally, I had just moved from one practice group at work to another, so none of the attorneys in my current group had met M. I showed up at dinner with S. (who had her wedding ring on) and people said, “it’s nice to meet your wife.” And I would say, “actually, she’s my friend.” And then they would get a curious look in their eye, “ohh, your *friend* . . .” Wink, wink. And I’m like, “no, she really is my friend!”

    S. was a perfectly lovely dinner companion, and very much enjoyed the show. (And of course, we didn’t sleep together or make out or run away together or anything else of the sort — it was all on the level.) I told M I’d be happy to take S to another show if I ended up with more tickets during M’s vacation. (I didn’t end up with anymore.)

    M’s mother was scandalized about the whole chain of events for years, which was a nice added bonus.

    (I think I’ve told this story at one of the previous discussions of the topic.)

    Comment by Kaimi — July 13, 2009 @ 2:31 pm

48. I’d say that when it comes to being friends with someone of the opposite sex, it’s really only safe when one or both parties finds the other vaguely sexually repulsive, or if both parties are in very committed, healthy relationships.

    Chandelle, #26, I really can’t judge, and there may be no better arrangement, but if I were your husband, I wouldn’t want to put myself in a situation that would test your trust in that way.

    Martin, I am in a very committed, healthy relationship. I don’t feel my trust is being tested. My partner knows there will be no second chances if he betrays me.

    Comment by Chandelle — July 13, 2009 @ 2:33 pm

49. Have you ever noticed at a church social occasion where dancing is involved that spouses almost always dance only with each other?

    Well, Pres. Kimball had a statement on Morality around 1980 that said once you’re married, no dating or dancing with others. To the point I politely turned down requests to dance at my High School Reunion with other women, although my wife said later she was fine with it if I had wanted to dance.

    Comment by Mike H. — July 13, 2009 @ 2:39 pm

50. Oops, I forgot to finish my thought. I was trying to say that I do have a healthy relationship with my partner, but if we were “on the rocks,” so to speak, I would inevitably be feeling differently about this situation. I do believe (perhaps naively?) that a healthy, strong, committed and stable relationship is largely immune to infidelity. Infidelity, in my opinion, is a symptom of a larger problem.

    Comment by Chandelle — July 13, 2009 @ 2:43 pm

51. Continuing my thought from #19, I wonder if the way we are socialized as singles in the church leads us to be incapable of platonic friendship.

    Kaimi’s story reminded me of the time I was hanging out with one of my single manfriends while my family was away on vacation. Some friends called to see if he could go bowling, and he wanted me to tag along. I obliged, neither of us realizing that the “bowling” was actually a singles ward activity.

    I have never felt so intensely flirted with since my days as a single guy. The flirting got pretty aggressive at times, and in one instance included some light touching of a kind that I have never experienced in the “real world’ outside of the singles ward context. I was glad to have my ring on, so I would start coming up with ways to casually make sure everyone I spoke with saw it. As soon as that happened, people stopped talking to me altogether, and some acted put out that I was even there to begin with. Honestly, had either my single friend or myself known, we probably wouldn’t have gone…just my being there probably wasn’t fair to the singles.

    But, what could you expect from an activity night that started with signing in at the door and writing down your relationship status? The singles ward dynamic often seems hyper-sexualized, and like the post from several days ago, may over-stress the need for young people to be in a romantic relationship.

    I look back on my formative experiences as a Mormon single and I’m not sure if I would have learned platonic friendship had I not attended some college in a non-LDS setting.

    Comment by mpb — July 13, 2009 @ 3:01 pm

52. #36 - that reminds me. We had a ward Valentine dance, and one of the YM cut in on my husband and asked me to dance. He wanted to know how my brother was doing, so we were talking about that. (But he did say, “I just looked for the prettiest woman in the room and decided to ask you” - sweet kid. Flattery will get him everywhere. ) Anyways, it made another couple so nervous that the woman came and cut in to “save me”.

    Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2009 @ 4:26 pm

53. Stephanie, when I was a kid a long time ago you could dance with anyone at ward dances, and no one got their knickers in a twist over it. What that young man did would have been considered entirely normal and proper. Things have really changed over the last generation or two…

    Comment by Kevin Barney — July 13, 2009 @ 4:29 pm

54. Yeah, and a woman cutting in would be kind of weird.

    Comment by Martin — July 13, 2009 @ 4:34 pm

55. No, she cut in and danced with the YM, not me! Of course, noone came and saved her . . .

    Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2009 @ 4:36 pm

56. i’ve been in this type of a situation before. and it really sucked. a friends husband called and asked if we could get our kids together. his had been in the car all day (they had been looking at houses) and his wife was headed to a meeting. it was late, he still needed to feed his kids. i invited him over to eat, as we had plenty for them. my husband, in the meantime, got ready and headed to the gym. i didn’t think anything of it. but when he got to my house, he asked where matt was. i didn’t think it would be an issue. anyway, i did my best to help him feed his kids and get over to the neighborhood center (we lived on a military post). his wife later met us there. around 10pm, he called and apologized to my husband for being “alone” with me in our house. there were four kids in that house along with us.

    my husband wasn’t worried about it, and even made a joke about it. but because he had called to apologize, i felt guilty (just like shelah) and called her up to apologize.

    it really ticked me off. i recently had an old missionary friend be in the area and he came by for a few hours in the afternoon. i told my husband about it. he asked if i felt if it was appropriate for me to have my friend over (who i hadn’t seen in about 8 years) without my husband there.

    it all just really bothers me. my husband is about to deploy, and several of the people he will be working with while he’s is gone, are females. nurses in fact, and he’ll be their direct chain of command. i HAVE to trust him. he was already gone for four months this year. while i did have moments of jealousy, it was mostly because he was able to go out on the weekends, and not have anyone else to take care of, while i had my kids and rarely went out late anywhere, unless i had my kids with me. i’ve known several marriages break up because the husband met someone while deployed or at the different schools that they are required to go to. many wives get boyfriends while husbands are deployed. it’s all just a disaster. but, i have no reason not to trust my husband, nor does he have any reason not to trust me.

    i’ve heard all kinds of things like “you can’t be too careful” or of friends not talking to other peoples husbands because of that, or not even wanting to be in the hallway at church alone with them.

    there is a line. but why cross it? and really, if you can’t trust each other, what kind of a marriage is that? i think that you’re fine shelah.

    Comment by Terina — July 13, 2009 @ 6:29 pm

57. Reading over all these insightful comments, it just sounds like another case where personal judgement is set aside by some who may feel they need to be ‘commanded in all things’. Yes, there are rules and regulations is regards to callings, missionaries, and the like, but when it comes to personal, day to day friendships or encounters, it’s all about whether the people involved feel comfortable or not. And if we are truly in tune with ourselves, our spouses, and the spirit, we’ll hear any alarm bells that may or may not sound along the way.

    I only find myself frustrated when others who are in no way concerned in either my marriage or that of my male buddy feel the need to judge or stick their nose into my private decisions. I do get annoyed by males or females in the ward who seem paranoid about joking around or being within 50 yards when the spouses aren’t around, but again, I have to remind myself that if they are truly uncomfortable with that kind of thing, their friendship is probably no great loss to me.

    Comment by Whitney — July 13, 2009 @ 6:49 pm

58. I have no interest in “dating” someone other than my husband. If I had a male friend and was spending one on one time with them, that would be dating.
    It is different if it is work related, or group related. But dating is dating even if you are just friends.
    Recently, a friend of a friend who just left her abusive husband and is about to file for divorce is spending time with a helpful male friend who is interested in her. She obviously doesn’t understand boundaries and is used to being told what to do. She is dating this person even though she is in denial about it because she continues to spend time with him and accept all of his “help.” It makes me sad that she is getting herself into another bad situation (a good guy wouldn’t be pursuing her at this point).
    Dating does not mean sleeping with or kissing or expressing love. But dating often gets you there and is inappropriate when you are married.
    So there are a million ways that I interacted with single men while I was single that I simply no longer engage in since I am married.

    Comment by jks — July 13, 2009 @ 7:40 pm

59. Platonic relationships can remain platonic. If you become attracted to the other person in a sexual/lovey way, then it’s time to break off the friendship.

    This seems like good, basic advice.

    Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2009 @ 7:46 pm

60. I hope this is not too off topic.

    When we are planning young women activities outside of the Chapel we have to have priesthood with us. Apparently 2 is best but 1 is ok. AND they now also have to have a Working With Children card (this is probably just an Australian thing). So, that is often really difficult. Plus these men often need to get time off work to come to the activities (eg during school holidays).

    Of course the Young Men don’t have these issues as their leaders have the priesthood, have WWC cards and get time off work as it is already their calling.

    As a result
    a) the yw tend to do less activities outside the chapel than the ym
    b) they sometimes feel uncomfortable with the one or 2 men watching them, e.g. if it’s something physical. (whereas if it were ym of their age it they might be nervous but not uncomfortable in a creepy way)

    there are probably other effects too but I’m feeling somewhat resentful of these restrictions.

    Comment by maureen — July 13, 2009 @ 8:20 pm

61. Maureen, this is so twisted. Why in the heck do women need the priesthood with them. Half of us live without the priesthood. This illustrates our cultural implication that women are not close enough to God to call on him for help.

    I know the church requires a priesthood holder’s presence at girl’s camp. Pisses me off. When my friend was Stake YW’s Pres, she told them ‘no way’. Good for Barbara!

    Comment by Andrea — July 13, 2009 @ 10:23 pm

62. good to know. I’ll look into it more and discuss it with my bishop, he’s pretty cool.

    It sure does feel pretty silly to have to get chaperones all of the time. And I really think that it doesn’t help the girls (including myself) stretch ourselves and manage things on our own.

    Comment by maureen — July 13, 2009 @ 10:58 pm

63. Anon # 38 — Yes, I can relate! I adore DH and we have a great relationship and marriage. But I occasionally get little crushes or attractions to other men, or notice some sexual tension. I figure it’s just biology at work, as you say, and I just wait for it to pass. And I don’t feed it — don’t seek conversation, don’t have e-mail exchanges, etc. It’ll go away eventually, and even if it persists — I am the adult. I am in charge, not my biology (the natural man, or woman). I decide to always be faithful to my husband, and that’s what I want, and that’s what I do. Period. But it helps to recognize when you’re attracted to someone and then stay away.

    Comment by anonforthis — July 13, 2009 @ 11:48 pm

64. jks, I’m confused. Why in the world would spending time alone with a friend (of either sex) be considered a date? If every time I spent time alone with a guy friend was a date, I’d be able to say I’d actually *had* a date this year. But if they’re a friend, it’s by definition NOT a date. Perhaps you haven’t heard about how “hanging out” isn’t a date? Elder Oaks’s talk is all the rage among young single people. (It tends to be annoying to the over-30 crowd, most of whom would be happy to just have friends in general and not to be told whether they can have friends of the opposite gender.)

    I think, as many have already pointed out, this goes back to how hypersexualized we tend to either make or assume activities with single adults are. Now, I try not to hang out one-on-one with former boyfriends who are now married because that would be weird for both of us and for any spouses involved. But if all you’ve ever been is platonic friends, most rational people would be able to trust that that’s all it would be to hang out with a good friend of an opposite gender.

    I’m pretty sure that most normal, rational adults aren’t going to jump each other just because they’re alone in the same room. That would require other choices beyond platonic friendship.

    Comment by stacer — July 14, 2009 @ 12:24 am

65. I have worked for years in female dominated industries. I have had woman bosses and counterparts everywhere I have worked. I grew up without sisters and not really getting females. My wife would tell you I still do not.

    I have an incredible wife who is my best friend. I have one really close male friend who I have been friends with for over 30 years. Along the way I have managed to develop some incredible relationships with women. Some have been mentors and some are like the sisters I never had. I have never had the desire (not even a twinge or fleeting thought) to develop a romantic interest. To me that would be kind of incestuous.

    Understand I do go to lunch with them at times, I have had dinner with some when I travel to distant cities where they have been transferred to and guess what. It feels pretty much just like it does when I am with my best guy friend. Hey people I love them and they love me and as long as they want to maintain this relationship and my wife does not care if do I could care less what anyone at church says. Now you will have to excuse me because I am going to go chat with one of my former female colleagues on Facebook.

    Comment by ThomasB — July 14, 2009 @ 2:12 am

66. Come to England!! Things seem to be much more relaxed here at church. It is not unusual for male friends to kiss me or give me a hug at church. Nobody bats an eyelid. I often stand around talking to other men at church in the corridor, so what. We understand friendship for what it is, just being friendly!! This is just ordinary behaviour in our ward. If I waited for my husband to be next to me to talk to another man I would wait forever, he is the Bishop and rarely even looks in my direction on a Sunday.

    My husband used to work away frequently and often dined with clients and colleagues, and yes, many of them were women. I never once considered it was inappropriate. i understood it for what it was. i also trust him completely.

    Comment by Kay — July 14, 2009 @ 4:34 am

67. If I had a male friend and was spending one on one time with them, that would be dating.

    that is one of the silliest, most ignorant things I have read all day. And if you sense any derision in my reply, you would be correct.

    Comment by just call me cassandra — July 14, 2009 @ 12:48 pm

68. Okay, I have tried not to comment on this, but now I feel I should.

    Look, I’m not Mormon and I’m one of the more liberal folks I know, but I have to say that I agree with jks, #58.

    That being said, I see happening here what I see happen a lot on this sight. That is, I think we all aren’t TOO far off in our opinions, but we are getting hung up on words and their connotation and/or definition. Semantics, if you will.

    While spending one on one time with someone of the opposite sex may not technically be dating, I too, feel that it is dangerous. Now I wouldn’t go all crazy with this idea. You can’t be a functioning or efficient person if you had no contact whatsoever with memebers of the opposite sex. But I think the key is investing time in someone of the opposite sex that is not your spouse.

    I, like many others work in a field dominated by men. I work in the oil and gas industry and am an attorney. Aside from my assistant I am literally the only woman in my office. Of course, to get things done and build truat amongst my colleagues I have to communicate with men on a regular basis. I do not, however INVEST in any one on one quality time with them.

    When we go to lunch as a group, I’ll laugh and cut up with them. However, I do not go to lunch alone with any of the guys and talk about my personal life. I DO think it is playing with fire to go to lunches and dinners with members of the opposite sex and to ahve members of the opposite sex in our home when our spouses aren’t there. Why even test the waters? When we invest emotion, time and energy into people, we, by nature begin to form bonds with and emotions towad them.

    I have a husband and as cheesy as it may sound he is my best friend. Of course I am going to go to him with my deepest fears, greatest dreams and most intimate feelings. But I also want to send him the funny joke e-mails during the day and call him to discuss the latest news story, etc.

    And I’m not saying to place yourself in a bubble and only come out to interact with members of the same sex. You have to use conventional wisdom and a bit of common sense, but what is the necessity for building a friendship (true friendship) with someone of the opposite sex? If I want a friend, there’s plenty of smart, fun, interesting women around.

    Sure I am “friendly” with the men I work with, in the sense that we impart niceties (”hi, how was your daughter’s wedding this weekend?”), give complimets and share (appropraite) jokes. But I guess I don’t call that a friendship, per se. Again, we might be getting caught up on the definition of the word.

    Anyway, for me and my husband, we just avoid, with members of the opposite sex, one on one quality time, intimate conversations or time and energy investments. And we do with more than just trust in mind.

    My husband know that I will, of course, find other men attractive. He know that I will have to interact with them. And if I, out of necessity, find that I have to spend time alone with men from time-to-time, he trusts that I will honor my marriage vows. But respect is also part of this. Out of respect, I don’t want people speculating. I don’t want to cause even the slightest bit of suspicion. I don’t want to, even inadvertently give someone the wrong impresssion, including the men I must interact with.

    And most importantly, as innocent as something might be, if it were to make my my husband even the slightest bit uncomfortable, it just isn’t worth it to me. I’ve got my husband (my best friend and partner), my girl friends (to fill in any gaps, i.e. stuff my husband doesn’t enjoy) and my colleauges (to sustain my professional life). I don’t need anything else.

    P.S. Chandelle, yes, I think you’re being naive.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — July 14, 2009 @ 1:53 pm

69. Sorry for all of the typos; had to type fast because I’m at work.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — July 14, 2009 @ 2:03 pm

70. Before we moved, I got myself in a bit of trouble with a guy friend of mine. I’ll call him G. My husband and I used to hang out with G and his wife quite often since they were our neighbors and about our age. We did lots of stuff together as couples, but eventually G’s wife became less sociable and would find excuses to not hang out with us anymore. So it ended up being me, my husband, and this guy friend of ours hanging out. Sometimes G would come up to our apartment to watch movies, or play video games, or just talk. As time went on, and as my husband’s schedule got busier, I started spending more time with G. It always seemed innocent. Sometimes he’d come over and play video games or we would go out to lunch together after I got home from class if my husband was at work. I TRULY didn’t find anything wrong with it at first. Perhaps I was just being naive. And besides, it was nice to have a friend and to have conversations with another adult besides my husband. To be honest, I had several female relationships at the time, yet I couldn’t talk to any them the way I could talk to G. There was just something about his personality that meshed with mine so well. I often wonder if G had been a girl, if it would’ve been the same, but that’s a different story I guess. In time things started to develop between me and G. I became flirty and playful. He would open up to me about personal things. He would tell me I was pretty and I could feel a chemistry growing between us. I knew hanging out with him alone wasn’t a good idea anymore, but I also didn’t want to stop because I enjoyed our talks and spending time with him. I think I was flattered by the fact that he found me attractive and enjoyed conversing with me. It kind of boosted my ego to know that even after being married for so long and having a child, that someone else thought I was interesting and beautiful, etc. After my husband found out about us hanging out alone together, he got really upset. And he asked me never be alone with G again, no matter how innocent it seemed to be. Later we found out that G was having some marital problems. This prompted my husband even more to discourage a friendship between me and G. He felt that if G was having marital problems, he would be more inclined to have a wandering eye or be looking for whatever it was he was lacking in his own relationship. I saw my husband’s point, yet I secretly felt angry inside, like my husband was being possessive or was trying to tell me who I could be friends with.
    When we moved I still had contact with G. Sometimes we’d chat online or talk on the phone. Before I knew it, I got myself into what I like to call an “emotional affair.” Basically we just shared things with each other that were personal. Sometimes things I wouldn’t even tell my own husband. I convinced myself that I wasn’t being unfaithful. Afterall, we weren’t having a physical relationship. But deep down inside, I knew in a way I WAS being unfaithful. Then my husband found out I had kept in touch with G and had been talking to him on a consistent basis and he felt he needed to put a stop to it. It really hurt my husband to think I was divulging things to G or sharing emotional intimacy with another man, and that’s when trust issues started to arise. And, as someone else mentioned, once there is no trust, everything else falls apart. I had to decide what was more important. My husband’s trust, or my friendship with G. In the end, I felt my marriage was much more important, and about a year ago I had to cut ties with G completely.
    Having friends of the opposite sex might be okay for some people. For others it may not. I think it depends on the kind of person you are. I know the kind of person I am. I think I’m really sexually charged and flirty and it is easy for me to get carried away in what starts out as a platonic relationship. And I know that the friendship I had with the other guy put a strain on my marriage. I became more distant with my husband and opened up less to him less because I was fulfilling that part of a relationship with someone else. I always told myself that I was strong enough, that I would never jeopardize my marriage. But for me, there was a powerful temptation there and I realized that if we hadn’t moved away and cut ties with G, something could’ve easily progressed into a physical relationship. I’m happy to say it didn’t and that my marriage is better than ever now. I love my husband. I’ve never loved anyone the way I love my husband. That’s not to say I don’t find other people attractive or feel a connection with other men. That’s just being human. And I think it’s okay to feel those attractions and connections. But it’s how we respond to them or whether or not we act on those feelings that makes it wrong. So, to navigate those friendships, as you asked, I have to keep a tight reign on my flirtatious side and never hang out with guy friends without having my husband there. It might not be an issue for some, but it’s safer for me to just keep my distance and not get too emotionally involved in the lives of my guy friends.

    Comment by mk7 — July 14, 2009 @ 2:41 pm

71. #63 anonforthis, you must have posted this before I posted mine. I feel the same way. If you’re like me, it’s easier to just stay away and not feed it.

    Comment by mk7 — July 14, 2009 @ 2:44 pm

72. I mean, you must have posted this WHILE I was posting mine.

    Comment by mk7 — July 14, 2009 @ 2:45 pm

73. mk7,

    Thank you for your honesty. You are a good case in point of what I was trying to get across. No one wakes up (i hope) and says, “i’m going to have an affair today.” But that is why I feel that TRUE friendships with members of the opposite sex are so risky and unnecessary. Forming a bond can happen innocently enough. We all think we are strong and, sure, the point of no return may be drawn at a different line for people individually, but why even risk the most sacred and important relationship in our lives?

    Especially when we can have our needs met and have relationships with members of our own sex when we aren’t with our spouses.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — July 14, 2009 @ 2:56 pm

74. I’m speaking from experience here- it’s always safer not to drive near the edge of the cliff. Is it dangerous to talk to the opposite sex? It depends on what you’re talking about. The purest of intentions and platonic relationships can get muddied in a hurry. Satan is working to erode our potential, our families and our morals at every turn and I know that I personally can’t put myself directly in the line of fire and walk away unscathed. Maybe you’re stronger than I am in the face of temptation- in fact I’m sure most of you are. I’m just saying- why look temptation in the face? 50% of the population belongs to our same gender. Certainly there are a few of those who are worthy candidates for friendship, and they’re much less likely to get you into trouble.

    Comment by Julie — July 14, 2009 @ 2:58 pm

75. I really appreciate your honesty, too, mk7.

    Comment by Stephanie — July 14, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

76. I think there is definitely an influence on the perception of men/women relationships from the media. When on TV or movies do friendships every just stay friendships? And characters cheat on each other constantly. So yeah, it isn’t just Mormons.

    Comment by jen — July 14, 2009 @ 3:22 pm

77. If anytime I hang out with a guy friend is dating, is it also considered dating when I hang out with a female friend? Am I a lesbian? I’m not attracted to either my girl friend or my guy pal, so far as I know, but will I inevitably become so because, well, that’s what happens in movies?

    Comment by Mouse — July 14, 2009 @ 3:59 pm

78. I had a bad experience with a male friend that decided to get too close. I lost a very good friend over it. I avoid making friends with men now. I have a couple old male friends from high school days, but I see them once or twice a year in a public setting. It seems kind of silly to be so cautious, but after you’ve been burned, it doesn’t seem so ridiculous.

    Comment by Shauna — July 14, 2009 @ 4:01 pm

79. Mind you…my best friend is definitely my husband.

    Comment by Shauna — July 14, 2009 @ 4:03 pm

80. “I’m not attracted to either my girl friend or my guy pal, so far as I know, but will I inevitably become so because, well, that’s what happens in movies?”

    You’re not attracted to the girl friends because, presumably you’re not a lesbian. If you were a lesbian and in a committed relationship, I would say the same rules go for hanging out (one-on-one) with girls. I have two friends who are gay (men who are a couple) and they have the same rules about being alone with men.

    You may not be attracted to the guy friends. Yet. But sometimes, when you form a bond with someone of the opposite sex (and you’re straight), you can BECOME attracted to them. Not always, of course. But again, why risk it? Attraction is more than just being fond of the way someone looks.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — July 14, 2009 @ 4:38 pm

81. #77 Again, if you somehow find your male friend sexually repulsive, I think you’re probably safe. At least to some extent. Same as you’d be with your lesbian girl friend.

    But,
    I really think Lawyer Lady got to the crux of the matter when she talked about “investing” in these relationships, platonic or not. Even investing too much emotional energy with friends of your own sex can be hurtful to a marriage, and a hint of sexual tension can make that much, much worse.

    Comment by Martin — July 14, 2009 @ 4:47 pm

82. Lawyer Lady beat me to it.

    Comment by Martin — July 14, 2009 @ 4:48 pm

83. Lawyer Lady is right, and so was Billy Crystal. 99% of (straight) men don’t desire or foster one-on-one, platonic friendships with women. The post-sexual responses on here seem incredibly and intentionally myopic, as if the notion that adulterous sex between two people sexually attracted to each other after spending time alone together, cultivating a relationship, is somehow something that only happens to people who live in trailer parks and appear on Jerry Springer.
    I am not saying it is always axiomatic, and I suppose, as Martin said, if there is absolutely no sexual attraction at hand, such a platonic friendship is theoretically possible and sustainable. But even the slightest bit of sexual attraction can, under the proper circumstances, evolve, sometimes very rapidly, into serious sin. Why risk it?
    Now, having said that, I do not think it wrong to go on a business lunch or dinner alone with someone of the opposite sex, or talk in the hallway at church or work alone with someone of the opposite sex, even if sexually attracted to the person. We should be able to withstand and enjoy these fairly innocuous and common social gatherings without feelings of guilt or deep desires to be unfaithful. Some common sense and control is expected.
    But frequency, depth of connection, spacing, topics, touching, etc. need to me monitored and guarded against. I am reminded of two families ruptured recently by adultery and divorce in our stake. In one instance, common nursery callings fanned flames and led to family disintegration. In another, a home teaching assignment provided the accelerant.

    Comment by pastry chef — July 14, 2009 @ 6:01 pm

84. All this talk about the paranoia of Mormons about having opposite friends as being “stupid,” is well, pretty stupid.

    I was just talking with my aunt who is not Mormon and who is currently utterly crushed and despondent as she recently found out her husband had an affair. She said, “You know he always had such good female friends. And I wanted to be tolerant of it. I didn’t want to be prude and restrictive. But during a rocky period of our marriage, he developed feelings for one of his friends. I now absolutely do not think that married people should have good friends of the opposite sex. It’s just too risky.”

    What happens if you do develop feelings for your friend? The only advice offered so far has been:

    Platonic relationships can remain platonic. If you become attracted to the other person in a sexual/lovey way, then it’s time to break off the friendship.

    This is pretty unrealistic. You have a best friend, a friend that you love, and you’re going to cut off all ties with them? Just drop them from your life? They’re going to protest of course and want to know why. And how many married women have the courage to sit them down and say, “I’m married but we can’t be friends anymore because I’ve started to like you and have become attracted to you. Sorry. Bye!” Highly unlikely.

    Comment by Katie M — July 14, 2009 @ 8:15 pm

85. Actually, after thinking about it, I do agree with what Lawyer Lady has to say. My partner staying with this woman is purely from convenience - there really isn’t a better option. They don’t really spend time together - they go to school together and that’s it, and then they’re in a big crowd; when they come home at night he just talks to me. If he was spending a lot of time getting to know this woman, sharing intimacies, I’d feel a lot more uncomfortable. I think you’re very right to be referring to investing in a relationship. I treasure my friendships with all sexes, but there won’t ever be the same investment as there is with my partner, who is, yeah! my best friend. So I guess there is a difference. Truthfully, I’ve always fallen in love with somebody by becoming best friends with them and then nurturing that spark of sexual attraction. I really do see where you’re coming from, and I agree.

    Comment by Chandelle — July 14, 2009 @ 8:34 pm

86. LDS writer Shannon Hale explored this issue in a new book called The Actor and the Housewife.

    Why risk a friendship with a man? Because he is a person first, man only coincidently.

    Because he may provide insights that strengthen a marriage. One reason I was so patient with my husband’s grad work and long career training path was my male friendships that had given me insights into the pressure of being a provider.

    Also, because if you stay friends long enough, you will both be old enough that the possibility of a sexual relationship becomes a moot point. Amen!

    Comment by Naismith — July 14, 2009 @ 8:38 pm

87. 10 Jack- I should let this go because it was a silly, in passing point but I can’t because it irks me:

    My husband does roll his eyes sometimes when he catches Bloggernacle regulars saying flirtatious things to me,

    It is terribly minor but it catches my attention because it reinforces the stereotype of women as being the passive recipient of the male gaze. Or, in less pretentious speak, sister, please. You flirt. You get your bloggernacle dalliance on. And I have ZERO problem with that, I think it is fun, respectful etc…but own it. Don’t say, “men flirt with me.” I hope that doesn’t come across as harsh because I really do adore your blog and if you’re coming to Sunstone, I’ll buy you a coffee

    Comment by crazywomancreek — July 14, 2009 @ 10:08 pm

88. Most of my friends that are men are just friendly acquaintances, not close friends. I do have a couple of men friends that I care for deeply, but by great good luck I’m not the slightest bit attracted to them, nor are they to me.

    I am guarded in my friendships with men, because even though I am happily married, I’ve never had any sense where men are concerned. Best to just keep my guard up. I think it’s important to know your own limitations and weaknesses, and for that matter, to take into account the possible limitations and weaknesses of others.

    Comment by anon — July 14, 2009 @ 10:25 pm

89. Well said, Anon and very wise.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — July 14, 2009 @ 10:31 pm

90. #88 CWC ~ You’re correct, I flirt back and occasionally I’m the initiator of the flirting, and I wasn’t trying to imply that I’m passive about it.

    However, I usually do get 1-3 random strangers hitting on me every week, even when I’m wearing scrubby, unflattering clothes. Now that I definitely don’t ask for, and that’s why my husband tends to take notice of other people flirting with me. But as I tried to relate in my airport story, we don’t really care if the other does a bit of flirting.

    Sadly, I don’t believe I’ll be able to make it to Sunstone. I’m preparing to move next month about that time and we’re going to need all our funds for that. Maybe next year.

    Comment by Bridget Jack Meyers — July 14, 2009 @ 10:55 pm

91. Oh Shelah. I have hesitated to respond to this post because what I have to say seems moot but what the hell.
    I have deep, blood of my blood, intimate, core friendships with men. When one of them had his heart broken this last year, I flew out, so I could make him soup and walk with him. I take all of my friendships seriously, feel free to assume it is a function of not being religious- maybe it is!
    It is funny because my husbands ex-wife did drugs and cheated on him (well, that’s not the funny/peculiar part, but stick with me) and he is terribly paranoid about any drug use on my part even though I don’t care for or use drugs at all! There was a time before I had, what turned out to be, a triple root canal that I would have taken cocaine had someone offered it, I would have taken newts blood had someone sworn to it’s efficacy but what my friends offered was pot. Even knowing that I imbibed solely as a last ditch effort to stave off excruciating pain, he was very hurt and….paranoid. It felt too familiar.
    SO even though his ex wife cheated on him (with his best friend among others!) and my male friends are close, not casual acquaintances, he still has no jealousy or paranoia about it. To what do I owe my good fortune?
    Here’s the part that makes this a little moot for your purposes. My intimate male friendships with straight men were all formed before we met. Coincidence? Eh. Maybe my heart hermetically sealed, encapsulating those friends+ him when we met! So, logically he see’s that they preceded him and I’m just not the kind of girl to drop a friendship. And emotionally/psychologically he knows that my heart thrills to the sound of his name. I really am crazy in love with him. I can’t imagine ever finding another man as compelling, intelligent or funny as he is. And he knows that because I can’t help but make him aware of it.

    Two other terribly off topic points:
    1) Naismith is back! Admit it, Nai, you missed us and you love us and you want to claim the title, “feminist.” C’mon! After the first few times you say it, your jaw relaxes and it barely hurts!
    2) Lawyer Lady- gas and oil? Any chance you’re close to Wyoming?

    Comment by crazywomancreek — July 14, 2009 @ 11:10 pm

92. Naismith is back! Admit it, Nai, you missed us and you love us and you want to claim the title, “feminist.” C’mon! After the first few times you say it, your jaw relaxes and it barely hurts!

    i thought the same and she has to make an entry on the get to know you post.

    Comment by mfranti — July 14, 2009 @ 11:17 pm

93. I’m glad Naismith is here as well.

    I can’t always be the nice evil villain.

    Comment by Bridget Jack Meyers — July 14, 2009 @ 11:22 pm

94. is that a subtle hint?

    Comment by mfranti — July 14, 2009 @ 11:30 pm

95. #91 CWC ~ And emotionally/psychologically he knows that my heart thrills to the sound of his name. I really am crazy in love with him. I can’t imagine ever finding another man as compelling, intelligent or funny as he is. And he knows that because I can’t help but make him aware of it.

    That was beautifully said, CWC. This is exactly why I don’t really mind having close, even occasionally flirtatious friendships with other men. There isn’t a chance in hell they could ever compete with the man I’ve got, and my husband feels the same way. “You were the woman who made marrying outside of the temple worth it,” he tells me. I think that’s such a sweet way of looking at our interfaith marriage.

    I suppose I should be concerned that my male friends may not feel that way about their significant others, but I try to make it pretty clear that I’m not on the market for anything more than friendship.

    Comment by Bridget Jack Meyers — July 14, 2009 @ 11:30 pm

96. Subtle hint of what?

    Unless one of the other candidates rallies a ton of support by tomorrow, I got Nicest Evil Villain in the bag.

    I wouldn’t mind coming in higher than 8th on the Best New Blog category though. That’s a not-so-subtle hint.

    Comment by Bridget Jack Meyers — July 14, 2009 @ 11:34 pm

97. Lawyer Lady- gas and oil?

    I’m into pipeline safety. I’m linking my name, this time only, to the site I participate on. There’s a few hundred industry lurkers to that site.

    Comment by Mike H. — July 14, 2009 @ 11:40 pm

98. They are. Voting closes tomorrow. I’m just not worried about rallying more support for NEV. I actually feel kind of bad about swiping the title from chanson because it was her idea in the first place, and I’m really not all that nice. I’m more like the Ann Coulter of the Bloggernacle.

    And mfranti, I saw your comment before you deleted it. Quit abusing your power, woman.

    Comment by Bridget Jack Meyers — July 14, 2009 @ 11:41 pm

99. jack, i didn’t feel like starting a fight.

    and jack, it’s the only power i have…let me abuse it when nobody is looking.

    Comment by mfranti — July 14, 2009 @ 11:43 pm

100. who is he really jealous of though? this computer….
     night all!

     Comment by crazywomancreek — July 14, 2009 @ 11:47 pm

101. Great posts by mk7 and lady lawyer. Who knows maybe I have low testosterone or good perspective. I will pray for the latter.

     As I stated I have been known to have one on one lunches or dinners with women that I am close to (I would say 3 would fit in that category). I would never be alone with them at my house or theirs. That to me would be inappropriate.

     If my wife has lunch, or dinner, with a male colleague I really would not question it. If it was with an old boyfriend that would be a different story.

     Comment by ThomasB — July 15, 2009 @ 1:15 am

102. I hadn’t really felt stifled by the current way of things in church culture, mostly because it was just so much a part of my MO that it never really occurred to me to have male friends, also, the opportunity as a SAHM just doesn’t present itself much, and I didn’t have any holdover pre-marriage male friends.

     having grown up with five brothers you’d think I’d be one of those saying that I prefer the company of men, but I’ve never felt that way. I don’t know that truly I prefer the company of either gender, I suspect it’s really more the personality of the person, but I can’t say that for sure since just like Shelah I don’t really have boy friends.

     Well, I do have one gay friend. And I’m certainly casually friendly with a lot of my friend’s husbands, or husband’s buddies. But the only men that I count as ‘my’ friends I met on the bloggernacle.

     It is interesting to me, prior to meeting any of them IRL I was always perfectly comfortable, I’ve never felt a moment of discomfort wondering if I was engaging in “risky” behavior by having bloggernacle male friends. I never even thought about them having a physical presence or something. And I don’t really have flirtatious exchanges, not my style I don’t think. And when I met a few of my bloggernacle friends IRL I suddenly had thoughts much like Shelah’s, about how I didn’t have male friends, and wondering if hanging out with them was appropriate, and suddenly I wasn’t as utterly comfortable with them in person as I had been before.

     But as I spent more time with them (and their wives for the most part) I found that I really did view them almost as extra brothers. I think if it didn’t feel like that, if I felt a spark of attraction or even emotional intimacy (or something) , I’d probably not feel comfortable with that.

     Generally I think it’s one of those moderation and judgment calls. If your marriage is happy and solid, if you don’t feel an attraction, if you don’t pursue that friendship to the exclusion of your spouse, if if if if if.

     I think it can be fine, good even, but I think it is something we should think about, be a little bit careful about.

     Comment by fmhLisa — July 15, 2009 @ 1:30 am

103. I found that I really did view them almost as extra brothers.

     I try to treat women I work with like a Sister. And, I’m not the Mike of #14.

     Comment by Mike H. — July 15, 2009 @ 4:03 am

104. CWC - no, I’m not close to Wyoming now, but I did used to go to Jackson Hole quite a bit growing up. Beautiful place…

     Mike H - thanks for the link.

     Comment by Lawyer Lady — July 15, 2009 @ 9:13 am

105. My brother once told me how lame he thought it was that if you try to strike up a friendly conversation with a woman at Church, odds are she’ll give off this weird, stand-offish vibe as if she thinks he’s just talking to her because he wants to jump her bones. The woman’s reaction wouldn’t be because of physical revulsion because he’s a good looking guy.

     I’ve noticed the same thing. Women at church, usually those in the same age bracket, can be uncomfortably un-reciprocal when striking up a friendly conversation in the foyer, in the hall, etc. (for example, when walking one’s 18 month old around the building during Sacrament meeting).

     I used to write it off to a well-intentioned but completely unnecessary way of trying to stay loyal to one’s spouse. This piece helped me realize it’s because of the SAHM aspect. As a working male, I am interacting and collaborating with other women all day, and I have a ton of platonic friendships with women. As obvious as it may seems, I never stopped to realize that SAHM’s just don’t have that same level of constant collaboration and interaction with members of the opposite sex.

     So thanks for helping me understand what I previously thought was just a lame and unnecessary reaction to trying to be a friendly person.

     Comment by Andrew Ainsworth — July 15, 2009 @ 11:18 am

106. ick well maybe we just don’t trust ourselves. i am married, but somehow i am always in love. i had tons of crushes before i got married, and i have tons of crushes now. the difference is i actually love my husband. and because i love my husband im aware of this tendency in myself, and when i meet a man i could potentially fall for, i shut down completely and avoid him. other women are stronger or better, i’m sure, but i’d like to apologize to all the attractive men i have offended or will offend. im just too romantic to handle platonic relationships.

     i also know i’m not the only one. after i got married i never saw any of my old guy friends again…they just disappeared. earnest hemingway says men have to be in love with a woman to even be friends with her in the first place. that may be true for some people. it apparently is true for me, on both sides.

     Comment by nobodyputsbabyinacorner — July 15, 2009 @ 11:25 am

107. My wife and I have lots of friends of the opposite gender, my wife especially. So we have a little set of rules that we follow.
     1) Always tell you spouse everything you are doing
     2) Include your spouse in the friendship if its a closer friendship
     3) follow the spirit (one size doesn’t fit all)
     Again we have made some very close mutual friends after we got married, women that we are both very good friends with.

     However there have been problematic situations, illustrating the importance of the third rule. A few years ago I was a stay-at-home-dad taking my son to a city-run preschool where the parents would go and help once a week. A woman (S.) from a nearby ward that met in our same building was also there and as the year went on she agreed to watch my younger daughter (she had a daughter the same age) when went to the preschool with my son. I’m often not a very friendly person, I would just drop off and pick up in a perfunctory manner. She was pregnant with her fifth kid which made her seem a lot older than me (I had two and the time).

     That summer we decided to invite her kids to our kids’ birthday party (they’re close to the same day so we do them together). I was going to drop off the invite to S. but had a very bad feeling about it. ‘But what could possibly be wrong with dropping off an invitation?’ I thought, so I went anyway. S. answered and seemed really happy to see me and we talked for about an hour (which we had never done before). During that time I was flattered by her happy vibe and, no longer being pregnant, I started thinking S. was pretty cute (not that pregnant women aren’t cute, I was just seeing her in a new light).

     She brought her kids to the party and that was no problem. The problem occurred when that fall my son was now in kindergarten and my daughter started to demand to see S.’s daughter to play with. I felt very strongly that this was a bad idea but my daughter was literally screaming in my ear so I called up S. and arranged some play time. We would just drop each others’ kids off but it quickly became clear that this was a problem, just too happy/flirty. So now I was convinced that I should have followed the spirit but didn’t know how to get out the situation. I talked to my wife about it and she said that I had a good arrangement for our daughter and why couldn’t I just be appropriate, “Just stand on the porch” she said. I didn’t think that would cut it, so I prayed really hard and a few days later, S. called and said that she had to enroll her daughter in a program so she couldn’t do the switch-offs anymore. I felt really bailed out.

     But that was just a particular situation. I prayed about what I should do for my daughter and felt prompted to call another women in the ward to arrange switch-offs. That situation worked very well and lasted for a year and a half.

     So these experiences reiterated the importance of following the spirit. At the same time, I couldn’t imagine life without many of these friends we do have.

     Comment by Steve Fleming — July 15, 2009 @ 12:37 pm

108. I met a SAHD at the pool yesterday. My kids are taking swimming lessons from some of the YW in our ward, so several of us moms are there every morning with our kids. The SAHD got laid of from his job (as an Executive) a few months ago and is at home taking care of his one year old. We talked politics for an hour yesterday and religion for nearly two today. It was great to talk to him. I really enjoyed it, and he said something about enjoying “intelligent conversation”.

     I’ve been thinking about this post and comments and realized that I am only comfortable with this in a very public setting: at the pool with a lot of other women I know around. I wouldn’t call him up and just meet him at the pool with our kids to talk. I’m the same way with men in our ward. There is a guy I did cub scouts with, and we really hit it off (he’s actually not active anymore, but is into scouts and is supportive of his family’s chuch attendance). He is a lot of fun to talk to and very helpful. And, I admit that I have a flirtatious nature. I am very comfortable talking to him at church, at cub scouts, with a lot of people around. But, I wouldn’t call him on the phone to talk either. I think that’s where I draw my boundaries.

     Oh, and something I’ve noticed is that I really back off when a man says anything less than complimentary about his wife to me. That is a red flag. And, I always make sure that I say really nice things about my husband (that are all true, of course) to keep him in the conversation and let everyone know that he is highly respected by me. It seems that starting to trash one’s spouse (even subtly) is testing the waters.

     Comment by Stephanie — July 15, 2009 @ 12:56 pm

109. A dozen or more year ago I was our ward’s choir president (basically, I did recruiting). A guy showed up at church and sat in front of me and had a great tenor voice. So after church, I asked him what he would think about singing with the choir. Did he like to sing? Was he moving to the area? He responded how he sings sometimes but his WIFE is the one with a great voice and he and his WIFE would be moving to the area sometime soon but his WIFE needed a chance to look around and find a neighborhood where the WIFE and KIDS would be happy.

     Good grief, dude. You are only an inch taller than me, scrawny, with a receding hairline and a weak chin. I noticed the wedding ring. I’m the choir president. I told you that. Get.Over.Yourself. I am not hitting on you!

     Comment by Ann — July 15, 2009 @ 10:25 pm

110. #109, I laughed out loud at your comment.

     Comment by mk7 — July 15, 2009 @ 11:13 pm

111. I find it very sad that some of my best friends growing up (they are male, I am female) seem inaccesible to me now because we are all married, and it would be “inappropriate” to continue close friendships with someone of the opposite sex. One friend and I have struck up a conversation on facebook and it has been so wonderful to validate the feeling that our friendship was real and meant something. I am not in love with any of these friends but I love them all and I wonder if our friendship meant as much to them as it did to me. I just can’t ask because of weird cultural issues.

     Comment by Anna — July 19, 2009 @ 5:00 pm

112. So no one feels any attraction to their female friends? My boyfriend doesn’t think twice about my male friends (they’re not my type) its my female friendships that make him nervous.

     I guess not many you have lesbian friends, bi-friends, or never feel any attraction to your attractive female friends?

     Comment by barnetto — July 21, 2009 @ 6:12 pm

113. The September 2009 issue of the Ensign has a good article that relates to this topic.

     It includes a list of questions to consider regarding friendships outside of marriage.

     I found it useful.

     Comment by Stephanie — September 1, 2009 @ 9:24 am

114. I really liked your posting about this, and I’ve seen a few more like it recently - the best part about yours is, it’s very informative and useful and full of good information without a bunch of usless rants and BS!

     I’ll be sure to give this URL to some friends

     Thanks Again

     Comment by myspace train — October 26, 2009 @ 7:15 am

115. Alright, enough about the “Mormon” angle being the weird one…I was married for seven years. My wife had many male friends, non members and members alike, and I supported that. Her Mormon friends had some pretty solid boundaries and always respected our marriage. She ended up having an affair with one of the nons, however. We reconciled and she had another affair with a non member several years later. My second wife, a non member, had an affair with a former boyfriend while she was away at a conference only weeks after we were married.
     I was aware of, and supported, both of these friendships without question, trusting each spouse without reservation. In both instances, I was blamed for being “too liberal” and allowing my SO to spend alone time with their male friends. I was told, by both of them, that my allowance was a sure sign of me not loving them. Both stated thay had wished I had been more possessive. That my acceptance of their friendships had actually led to the infidelity. Total BS, I understand that now…but still. You cannot tell me that nonmembers are less “normal” in male-female friendships.

     A word of warning:
     Male-female friendships (or same sex friendships where attraction is a factor) should be examined or avoided where possible, even if both married partners are in agreement. In ANY case of infidelity there is a moment of recognition and decision. No one ever “falls into love”. It is an active process, a deliberate choice, a curiosity that is followed. these kinds of relationships have potential to rock the marriage. The tipping point? How about an arguement, a few drinks, a late night, a converstion about sex, a rip session of respective SOs…
     Be as liberal as you like. Time will tell. Trust me.

     Comment by PapaKrok — December 7, 2009 @ 7:26 pm

116. That said:

     I am in a relationship where my current SO has MANY male friends. She has dated some of them, others are just friends. We have discussed this and we have agreed on the following criteria:

     1) Complete transparancy. Who, where and what kind of activity.
     We both have freedom to see our friends, just discuss it ahead of time, no suprises. in the event of a coincidental meeting, a quick text or phone call will suffice. Secrecy is a relationship killer. Secrecy implies deception by default.

     2) Avoidance of alone time where a relationship has existed or where attraction has been expressed.

     3) keeping intimate conversation private, not complaining about SOs to opposite gender friends.

     This seems to be working. Most of her male friends faded out anyway after she changed her FB status to “in a relationship”. The male friends that remain are her real friends and not looking for something other than a friendship. Sidenote: she isn’t as happy about me spending time with female friends, but the rules of a relationship should apply equally to both partners. I’m just saying. Her female friends really like me and I have had to set some firm boundaries.

     Comment by PapaKrok — December 7, 2009 @ 7:36 pm

117. Oh heavens…am I doing it again? Crap.

     Comment by PapaKrok — December 7, 2009 @ 7:38 pm

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