The Standards for Good Fathers are Pathetically Low
So says Michael Chabon. If you have a few minutes, read or listen to NPR’s Guy Raz interviewing Michael Chabon about his experiences with his children.My favorite quote from the interview - about why fathers should clean up vomit and change diapers:
Mr. CHABON: Yes. I mean, you know, that’s the - in a way, the mysterious thing about it because it’s not really fun. It’s not fun to change diapers. It’s not fun to clean up vomit. It’s not fun to - you know, I’m choosing the more disgusting tasks. But just, you know, taken on a task-by-task basis, who wouldn’t rather have someone else do them? But somehow, you know, the payoff often comes in those moments when your child turns to you, you know, when there’s somebody there that needs you the way that a small child needs his or her parent. And, you know, if that parent is you, I think for a lot of couples, it’s mom. It’s always mommy. And mommy is the one who’s turned to when something is really urgently needed, and that’s such a wonderful experience. I would never have wanted to have missed out on that by virtue of the fact that I got out of all those icky jobs.
I love his last sentence. That these icky jobs increase the intimacy between a parent and a child. Kinda puts the smelly disgusting diapers and oozy green snot into perspective.And while you’re at it, check out Chabon’s book The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Klay. The Yiddish Policeman’s Union isn’t bad, either.
I’m a fan of Chabon and of his wife, Ayelet Waldman. I heard Terry Gross interview Waldman a few months ago, when her memoir Bad Mother came out, and I think it’s interesting that they seem to have set up the “good cop, bad cop” thing with their memoirs, at least with their titles. There was a huge brouhaha when Waldman’s book came out, at least partially because she wrote about her heart-wrenching decision to abort a baby who had Down Syndrome. While I think both Chabon and Waldman are hands-on parents, they seem to sort of delight in turning traditional gender roles upside-down, at least in their most recent memoirs.
Comment by Shelah — October 14, 2009 @ 2:48 pm
He was on Fresh Air last week, too.
Comment by Ann — October 14, 2009 @ 2:49 pm
Wow, Shelah - I heard the Terry Gross interview and missed the part about Waldman being married to Chabon. Very interesting stuff - thanks for sharing that.
Comment by ECS — October 14, 2009 @ 2:50 pm
Very cool. I like that he noted the double standard for how men are praised for being domestic and women are not (but still, it’s progress, so I won’t complain too much). I also like his last comment. You can tell that he truly has respect for “women’s work” because he’s done it, recognizes the skills involved, and has accepted it as his own AND derives satisfaction from doing it. This is progress. Awesome. Thanks for sharing.
Comment by Stephanie — October 14, 2009 @ 3:04 pm
Gotta be one of my favourite authors-few can turn a sentence like him and the ambition and scope of Kavalier and Klay was stunning.Now I love him even more.Trusting another human being with one’s bodily fluids does seem to build trust.Something to reflect in our increasingly sanitised relationships.We all need to feel able to trust someone with the imperfection in our body and soul.
Comment by wayfarer — October 14, 2009 @ 3:10 pm
I agree, Wayfarer. I’m reading Carlos Ruiz Zafon’s The Angel’s Game and David, the main character talks about growing up sickly in the pre-penicillin age, and how “In those days death was not yet anonymous and everyone could see and smell it everywhere, devouring souls that had not even had time enough to sin.” Maybe taking care of our loved ones’ poop and vomit are as close as we get in our era.
My 2yo won’t go near her dad. He goes to work just as she’s waking up and she’s in bed at least half the time before he gets home, and I think that even though he’s a great dad and a nice guy, she doesn’t know him well enough to let her guard down around him. It’s really sad…
Comment by Shelah — October 14, 2009 @ 3:23 pm
“The standards for good fathers are pathetically low.” True, and yet most of us still manage to come up short. Just attend a priesthood session of general conference, and you can take some confort in knowing that we are constantly being reminded of that fact. As Homer said to Bart on this past weeks The Simpson’s: “your mom knows my only weakness…that I’m weak!”
Yet, we still try.
Comment by larryco_ — October 14, 2009 @ 3:35 pm
I have several friends and family members who constantly praise a father for being willing to “baby-sit” or “watch” his child while his wife does other things. To my brother-in-laws credit this greatly annoys him and I often hear him remind these friends and family members that the father is parenting (not baby-sitting) and that the children are just as much the fathers responsibility as the mothers. My brother-in-law works long hours and my sister will go for days without seeing him while he’s awake. But he works hard to make time to be with his children and his attitude of the children are his responsibility just as much as hers makes a world of difference in his relationship with his children and his wife. It’s sad that society allows us to see children as the womens responsibility and as an area where men can “help” if needed and if he’s willing.
Comment by Susan — October 14, 2009 @ 4:42 pm
I just picked this book up from the library. I like him, but his wife just rubs me the wrong way. Everything I’ve ever read about her or written by her makes me want to do destructive things.
It’s totally irrational, I know, but there it is.
Comment by Jennifer in GA — October 14, 2009 @ 5:32 pm
I once read in a parenting magazine that a wife should never thank her husband for doing the dishes, so that he will come to realize that doing the dishes is simply expected and normal,,, not something deserving of praise or mention.
So, I started doing that with my husband… for all of the things I wanted him to consider normal and expected, including diaper and vomit duty. Pretty soon, he wondered why I didn’t appreciate him. I grew up with a mother who thanked us for every little thing… and I do that with my kids… but should women need to do that with grown men? I wonder if men or women express appreciation less. I know so much of the time, the things I want to be appreciated and thanked for are simply seen as normal and expected by everyone.
By the way, I consider taking care of my baby’s needs… especially the icky ones… sacred.
Comment by Ahhh... — October 14, 2009 @ 5:34 pm
Hey Ahhh, I think it’s quite allright to thank our hubby’s when they do the dishes or clean up after the vomiting child. I also thank my husband when he takes out the trash or trims the trees. I believe we should cultivate a thankful aptmosphere in our homes–even it means we sometimes unintentionally steepen those traditional gender roles.
The parenting magazine that said we should not express our gratitude for such things was wrong, in my opinion. It just seems so calculating to hold the gratitude in the name of making a point. I think there are better ways to express what we think about who does what around the home and why. this is why I sometimes force myself to pick up the toilet plunger rather than call the hubby. YUCK! But, otherwise–it’s just another double standard.
And I would never expect to be thanked for doing what some would call a man’s work, but when I do hear a thank you…it just feels good. Of course, i married well. so if he didn’t do the dishes or expected me to do them all the time, I would have to poison him. Just kidding. sort of
Comment by Renee — October 14, 2009 @ 6:05 pm
I like to be thanked for the things I do that are “expected” of me. Plus, showing gratitude for something is a good way to encourage it to happen again. People naturally respond to positive reinforcement.
Comment by Stephanie — October 14, 2009 @ 6:30 pm
No doubt, the standards are low, for a lot of the reasons we have been discussing on the other post…parenting and housekeeping has not been considered the role of men/husbands. Eliminate those roles, and I think those expectations would ultimately change. It’s great to hear about an example of a fairly prominent man like Chabon who is doing exactly what Stephanie rightfully wanted: stepping up as a man to show that those activities are just as valid for men as women.
I’m in the camp that we should be appreciative for people for everything they do, whether it’s part of their expected responsibilities or not. I disagree with the idea that men shouldn’t be thanked for what they do, but I can empathize with the idea behind the idea–and I think it wives/mothers definitely deserve much more appreciation for the things they do. One breakfast in bed and a homemade card a year just doesn’t seem to cut it.
(I’d heard of Chabon for his fiction, but I hadn’t heard that he was married to Waldman. Sounds like an interesting dynamic.)
Comment by Derek — October 14, 2009 @ 6:55 pm
My solution to the “thanking my husband for housework” dilemma is to always thank him, because I do appreciate it, and like to be positive. However, I often try to let him know what I do, and remind him that I like to be thanked as well (which doesn’t always happen). This can easily spill over into nagging, but I do want him to start noticing what I do. Some of it probably has to do with me wanting my own personal validation, but I try to tell myself that it’s because of the principle of the thing.
Btw, I’m typing this at work, sneaking on while my manager isn’t looking, so if there are many typos or errors, I apologize.
Comment by Natalie K. — October 14, 2009 @ 7:41 pm
Wow, what a nice thing to say! My husband is awesome like that. He never had to be told to do any of the icky jobs, either. He just knew to do them when he is around, and he LOVES those little moments with our daughter.
I know, I tell my husband about the little smiles our Olivia flashes at me while I’m nursing her, or the babbling she does while I change her diaper, or the frustrated coos I get when she can’t figure out a toy… I tell that to him when he calls me during his lunch hour. And when he gets home he wants to see his daughter right away. I have a sweet hard working husband. I thank him regularly for making it possible for me to stay home and care for our baby. He reminds me often of what a good job I’m doing, too! I just love him. I am SO PROUD to say that my husband is a great dad
Comment by Priscila — October 14, 2009 @ 8:01 pm
That was an interesting interview. I haven’t read any of his books, but that makes me curious about them.
I do think fathers get cheated out of many of the greatest joys of parenthood by the old model of society in which mothers or servants do all the dirty jobs. It’s by rendering loving service to others that we let love plant roots most deeply in our own hearts. There’s no more personal or more loving service we can do than that required by the little ones. And then the sweetness of their love and trust for us in return is like the sweetness that surpasseth all, like the fruit of the tree of life. It’s so sad that dads sometimes miss that part entirely, and it’s terribly unfair to them.
Comment by Tatiana — October 14, 2009 @ 8:42 pm
In my experience, though my Dad cooked and did the dishes on a daily basis, my Dad never changed my diaper, cleaned up my vomit or any of those very personal care type things. Yet he was always emotionally available to me and understood me in a far more profound way than my Mom ever did. It was him I went to. Always.
Comment by barmy stoat — October 14, 2009 @ 9:40 pm
I disagree with #10. There’s nothing wrong with showing thanks for something. People like to know that what they do is appreciated and noticed. I can’t speak for everyone’s husbands, but mine is more likely to do something when he feels that I appreciate it - he’s happy to help me, and happy to know that he’s done something I like.
Comment by skippy — October 14, 2009 @ 11:35 pm
The fastest way to get someone to stop doing chores is to never recognize it or give them gratitude for it. Everyone wants recognition for the work they do. I expect to be thanked when I clean the bathroom, and I give my husband the same thing I expect for myself.
As for the father thing - I find it fascinating. I definitely see some truth to that in my own family where my father was never involved in day to day parenting.
Comment by julie — October 15, 2009 @ 3:22 am
Skippy, #18, actually I agree with you… and everyone else too. When I read that article in that parenting magazine and put it into practice for just a little while, it didn’t take long for me to realize how flawed the theory was. Like I said, my husband realized something was different and said he felt unappreciated, so I abandoned that whole idea and switched back. Now, I do recongnize and show appreciation for the smallest of things my husband does. It was actually hard to not thank him when I didn’t… it went against who I am. However, I saw my own parents… a mother who was so grateful and a father who was distant emotionally… at least in front of us. Maybe that’s when my feminism began… seeing the inequity in her gratitude vs. his. Gratitude brings such a positive energy… it’s amazing.
My dad never did much beyond making a living…which was completely appreciated by my mom. He did do dishes though… once a year, on Christmas. Yes, the joy of celebrating Christmas by all sitting in the kitchen to witness the annual miracle…. good times…
In fact that’s one of the traditions I miss most in my own little family… although I wouldn’t trade what I’ve got for it. I love my dish-doing husband and kids.
Still, no matter how grateful I might be, my husband hates to change diapers and cleaning up vomit actually makes him vomit…. whereas I seriously feel priviledged to help my sweet kids through those parts of life even if it is icky. It can be tiring, but I’ve always recognized that time as special… bonding even. Imagine someone doing that for you… it would create quite a bond of trust, wouldn’t it?
Comment by Ahhh... — October 15, 2009 @ 5:45 am
We are in a Spanish ward, and based on that experience and interaction with my husband’s South American family, I have to say the bar is set even lower for Latino dads. The other moms in Relief Society are always amazed when I show up to activities without my baby. “She’s home with her dad? He knows how to feed her a bottle [of breast milk]? He knows how to put her to bed and everything?” I mean, they are impressed by this really basic stuff that every parent should be an expert in. Meanwhile, all of them–not just the single moms or moms whose husbands work at night–have to schlep all their kids to the activity while their husbands sit at home watching TV. Lately, though, I’ve noticed that they’ve started asking a few dads, rather than the YW, to run the child care during RS activities. The last time the dads even planned a craft activity for the kids to do. So I guess that’s improvement.
In our house, it helps that we have a lot of friends who are really committed to co-parenting, and in our area most families have both parents working. Being around other dads who also change diapers, take kids to the pediatrician, make lunches, clean bathrooms, take the kids to the park, etc. makes it seem more normal to my husband. Also, I think he takes a lot of pride in his parenting skills.
Comment by Sofia — October 15, 2009 @ 6:18 am
I’m really not too crazy about the icky stuff. If DH is home, I let him do all the icky stuff (and if I smelly a poopy diaper a few minutes before he gets home, I save it for him, too
). Maybe it’s because I get enough opportunities to bond - don’t want to hog them all. It’s great when my 2 year old will wait all day to go and then poop 3 times after dad gets home. Ha ha. Love that.
Sofia, I wonder if you are right. My uncle married a woman from Mexico, and she does everything for him (even put toothpaste on his toothbrush). My brother lived with them during his teens (contrast that experience with the rest of his childhood - my mom never cooks or cleans). When he met his wife (from Peru), all he talked about was how great she cleans houses and cooks. I kept asking, “But what about HER? What does she like?” Sad to say, I don’t think he was too interested any of that. I think his highest qualification for a wife was a woman who would do everything. It’s turned out that way, but she is very frustrated by it. She rarely gets a break from her kids. In this case, I think it is my brother who wanted to take advantage of a culture where the husbands/fathers don’t do much at home.
Comment by Stephanie — October 15, 2009 @ 8:31 am
Stephanie–my brother-in-law did the same thing: married a woman from a culture that has a strong sense of machismo, and then totally took advantage of it. So disappointing.
Comment by Sofia — October 15, 2009 @ 10:16 am
So true… my SIL couldn’t believe it when DH and I were moving across the country and I drove the car with all of our stuff while DH flew with our son. “You trust him for three whole days with your son? And on a plane?” Umm… yeah. If I couldn’t TRUST him to take care of our son without me I think I would probably go insane. Then she told me my brother had never even given their son a bath in the entire year since he’d been born. She was incredibly grateful when he would “watch” their son so she could go grocery shopping. I wanted to knock my brother upside the head and it made me INCREDIBLY grateful for my husband. He’s not perfect, but I know he knows how to do every single thing I do for our son. It had never occurred to me before that to be grateful for that– like it was anything other than the norm. I honestly don’t think I could tolerate a marriage any other way and it blows my mind when women accept such a low standard from their husbands.
While I was home visiting once with my son but without DH, my SIL and I wanted to go out shopping together, for fun. My dad was free and happy to watch my son and my brother was up and had no plans other than hanging around the house. His wife asked him “if he’d like to watch” their son so we could go out without babies. And my brother said “I don’t really feel like it. You should just take him with you.” My dad would have happily watched my nephew, but since no one but his mother ever takes care of him, he freaks out when anyone other than his mom or dad touches him. So we ended up taking him with us The selfishness absolutely blew my mind.
But what also blew my mind was that my SIL just accepted her husband’s answer. He didn’t FEEL like it? And what, she always FEELS like having their son attached to her hip 24/7 because you are too selfish to help out? That just wouldn’t fly for me. That marriage would absolutely not work for me. But she never says “Well, too bad. It’s your turn to be a parent now.” She just lets it go. So, while men definitely need to be willing to step it up, I think women need to be willing to call their husbands on it. My brother and I aren’t very close, but I wish I knew him well enough to tell him what a jerk he was acting like. I hope and pray she took him to task about it later but she is… very traditionally-minded in her idea of husbands and wives. She told me it drives her crazy, but I don’t know if she will ever tell him that. And it’s crap like that that makes it seem like a miracle when a good father willingly changes his share of diapers.
Anon for this… just in case anyone who knows me puts a name on my jerk of a brother. (Not a jerk all the time. But in this instance.)
Comment by anonforthefam — October 15, 2009 @ 10:28 am
I was always willing to do the diaper changes on the kids, so long
as husband would clean up the cat’s hairball oogies. Yuch, I hated those.
We heard the Yiddish Policeman book on talking book, it was quite
entertaining.
I’m also a firm believer there is never too much praise for good behavior.
I try to look past bad behavior most of the time, though those slimy fish the guy left, ungutted, in my kitchen sink monday after his early morning trip to the river were kinda over the line.
Comment by Betty Jo — October 15, 2009 @ 10:31 am
AHH…
Being a behaviorist, if you find the reinforcer that works, (your bit of gratitude) and it seems you did, you will increase the likelihood that the behavior will continue.
As someone who feels they work a miserable lot at work, and often at home, a bit of gratitude from my wife and kids is sometimes the very thing that keeps me moving forward.
I’m sure your husband is very grateful for your words of thanks!
Comment by Desert Rat — October 15, 2009 @ 11:56 am
I think we do set the bar too low.
Things have gotten so that I practically ignore the kids when my husband is home and catch up on other things (my sort of part time job, long story). It forces DH to really dig in and do things. He now cooks practically every night and puts the kids to bed. He gets to interact with them and serve them and I have time to do what I need to do. It makes both of us better parents. We spend family time together a couple of times a week as my schedule allows.
Our family works well this way, I’d like to not have to do those other things and just hang out with the family, but then DH wouldn’t be such a strong influence in the kids’ lives and I really don’t want to be the only one responsible for them.
I always wonder at the women that say they wouldn’t trust their husbands to take care of their kids alone. Why have kids with someone that you don’t trust to help you parent them? I’m sure you could have a good answer for that, but I think that a lot of these women are enabling their husbands to fail at a responsibility that is theirs.
Comment by anon — October 15, 2009 @ 12:20 pm
I often think that the reason the Lord sends babies to the earth completely helpless is to “force” parents to bond with their children. I admit that if my baby didn’t cry to tell me her needs, I would likely get busy doing other things and forget to care for her (for a while). All the acts of service you have to give an infant do bond you to him or her over time so that by the time they are a toddler, you are less likely to hurt them during those “terrible” years (said tongue-in-cheek but also with an element of truth).
My mom often remarks how it is interesting that we come into the world and go out in the same way: shrively, bald, needing someone to feed us and change our diapers (if we live long enough). I wonder if that’s another of God’s ways to teach us love (assuming we take the opportunity to care for our elderly). I even wonder if it’s a way to encourage forgiveness. As children serve and love their parents, they overcome past feelings of anger. Just some thoughts I’ve had today.
Comment by Stephanie — October 15, 2009 @ 8:44 pm
Beautiful and useful thoughts,Stephanie.
Comment by wayfarer — October 17, 2009 @ 3:11 pm
Thank you, wayfarer.
Comment by Stephanie — October 17, 2009 @ 3:55 pm
Oh! How did I miss this interview and the Fresh Air one? Chabon is my favorite author - I have all of his books and each one is fantastic (except The Final Solution, that one is ok). He is a great author, and a genuinely nice person. I was lucky enough to meet him after I stalked him at a conference.
Moving past my creepy side, myabe we think the bar is low for husbands/dads because it feels so terribly high wives/mothers. It could be a chicken & egg relationship, but I think expecting so much from the feminine counterpart leaves very little to expect from men.
Now, who wants to talk about Nick Hornby.
Comment by Eris — October 28, 2009 @ 10:06 pm