Women and sports (or should I say girls?)
By: Britt
Perhaps you have noticed… I’m not your most ardent feminist. I’m moderate to pro-life. Politically I’m in the constitution party. I have eight children and I home school them. I’m a Mormon, to some that might say it all. Yet here I am. I’m on this website not just for the intelligent banter-or the chance to play devil’s advocate. Yet get me started and I come out sounding rather feminist on some subjects. We all have our talents or unique skills. Any woman developing her own talents has run into discrimination. Why?
For me it’s sports. I was a college athlete. Volleyball took me to Europe and Hawaii. Helped with my college, brought me some confidence and some sort of status and has been an important part of my life.
Now sports has brought women fame. The Williams sisters rival some movie star in their fame, we have Mia Hamm, and who could ever forget teensy little Mary Lou Retton…yet they are still stuck wearing skirts, being criticized of grunting and somehow being wrongly aggressive. It just grates on me.
I’ve mentioned before about uniforms. A quick look at Olympic uniforms make the issue rather clear. At this level it is obvious that freedom of movement is essential and easily available in shorts and a tank, some version of which every men’s team competes in. Women’s teams are in tighter, smaller, shorter versions that reduce athletes to eye candy.
There’s always differences in professional athlete salaries to annoy me…
Play a pick up game of any sport with a guy-it’s a no win for him. If he beats you he “should have”, if he loses he lost to a girl.. Play volleyball with a group of guys and you are automatically designated setter-never mind you could break blood vessels if they would just set you the ball.
A recent event brought all my emotions to the surface. Playing BYU, a UNM soccer player broke all sorts of rules: kidney punches, and jerking a player to the ground by her ponytail… it’s not pretty. There is definite jostling on both sides-soccer can not be confused with chess. The BYU players are not innocent little daisies, but nothing justifies the UNM player’s actions. It should be news and she should be disqualified from competing. The articles and comments are flagrantly discriminatory.
Here we learn that this behavior would be expected of a male athlete, but is unusual and appalling in a female. Um NO! Violence is appalling no matter your gender.
Here we learn the “cat fight” is expected. Women are “arguably rougher”, you are “just as likely to witness fisticuffs in a women’s game as a men’s”. There is true science and logic, with nary a source or statistic to justify the statements. How do we women manage to be more rough while have an equal number of “fisticuffs”? Is it the old aggression in a female vs boldness in a male?There are many articles that reference the athletes as girls (would 20 year old male athletes be called boys?)…and the comments…sigh. Never would a male athlete be accused of being hormonal had he displayed this level of violence on the field, neither would his actions be considered sexy-over and over and over and over again.
So there it is. This is the kind of thing that drives ME crazy. Sure I get involved in nursing and birth-very involved, but sports is really where it all started for me.
If you’re interested in a discussion of gender and sports, I strongly recommend “Coming on Strong” by Susan Cahn - she specifically talks about these sorts of issues and has some interesting arguments about the direction that sports should go.
Britt, as a formerly-home-schooled former-college athlete, I found sports to be one of the strongest things that pulled me to a line of feminist thought. In 2nd grade I played YMCA basketball for the first time, and there was no girl’s league. I touched the ball TWICE the entire season, because the boys wouldn’t pass the ball to the girls and the coaches wouldn’t let the girls even throw the ball in. My mother was so furious she lobbied the YMCA to start a girls league. They claimed there wasn’t enough interest, but she could coach an all-girls team if she wanted. There were enough girls for two all-girl teams, and after one year there were enough girls interested in an all-girls league that since then there’s been a girls only league.
I should stop now before I get too into this and forget to go running - women’s sports is my big “thing” and I wrote a major paper in college on LDS women’s sports so I have tons of information to share - if you’re in discussing the topic further just shoot me an email
Comment by LT — November 20, 2009 @ 3:23 pm
Team sports played a huge role in my life as well. I have no data, just personal experience. My favorite sport was volleyball because I could be on the other side of the net–pretty hard to pull my ponytail without anyone seeing it
I don’t recall receiving any cheap shots in any sport at any time. It wouldn’t have occurred to me to intentionally harm anyone while playing, and not just because my coaches would’ve yanked me out in a heartbeat. I wanted to PLAY.
However, watching women sports now seems completely different to me. The UNM player was in an intense game and lost control. Arguably, we all do it at some point to some degree. Imo, she has at least intimated that she takes responsibility for her obnoxious behavior. If anything, I think it speaks highly of women’s sports that this is anomalous.
Comment by Lupita — November 20, 2009 @ 4:00 pm
LT I haven’t read Susan Cahn before. I can’t believe the coaches wouldn’t let girls throw the ball in… Good for your mom for starting a girls league.
Sports have definitely given me a lot of confidence…
Lupita, I chose volleyball over basketball in college because I didn’t like physical play. I wasn’t a dirty player, but I would hold my ground…sometimes that wasn’t enough and ref.s can’t be everywhere…..so I went for the sport with the net in the middle-like you.
It is crazy what this UNM player does, I’m glad it sticks out as bad….it just disgusts me that people find it sexy.
Comment by britt — November 20, 2009 @ 4:30 pm
This is totally off topic. But I just was reading fmh bloggers thread and on there Britt didn’t you say you were pregnant with your first child? In this post it says you have 8 children? Are you the same person?
Comment by Brittany — November 20, 2009 @ 4:36 pm
Britt - Great Post.
When I was in school, no Intramural girls sports
were allowed. The reason given was because it was
believed that seeing girls running around on a
basket ball court (even in our ever so modest gym suits)
might attract inappropriate prurient interest by male spectators.
So to protect boys and men’s virtue, girls were not permitted to
play competitive sports.
I was watching a football game on TV a couple of weeks ago.
After an outstanding onside kick, the male sports commentator
praised it by saying “look at that! He could give Mia Hamm a
run for her money!”
I was so proud. He knew her name! This is progress (I think).
Comment by Betty Jo — November 20, 2009 @ 4:45 pm
Brittany, I’m not that britt…my full name is britt…I guess I could add a letter to distinguish…
Betty Jo, we are making some progress! It’s just when I see something like the UNM thing and everyone calling this 20yo a girl and a sexy one for her violence…I’m thinking we haven’t come that far….
or the uniforms…crumbs why should a female have to worry about wedgies as an olympic athlete…just because it’ll get more viewers. She’s an athlete not a bathing suit model.
Comment by britt — November 20, 2009 @ 4:51 pm
I’ve always played sports. I think with the uniforms a lot of it is preference. I know when I ran track most of us girls wanted to wear briefs instead of shorts. They were just more comfortable, we didn’t want to wear shorts. I know that guys play in shorts but mens shorts are a lot looser and longer then womens so that could make a difference too. Maybe some guys think they’re sexy but that was the last thing I was ever thinking about during a meet. I’m not willing to wear more clothing and be uncomfortable because some guy can’t get his mind out of the gutter.
Comment by anonamouse — November 20, 2009 @ 6:29 pm
I think women’s beach volleyball uniforms were chosen to get men to watch the women thereby getting higher ratings and maybe sometime hopefully they might get interested in the volleyball. Drives me bonkers.
britt
Do you ever watch the Brazil women’s national volleyball team?
Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — November 20, 2009 @ 9:21 pm
Took my youngest daughter to many BYU women’s soccer games, but could never get her interested in playing unfortunately.
From one man’s perspective, I find I enjoy watching women play the sports I’m personally most interested in playing myself — v-ball and soccer and tennis to be specific. The attire makes no difference to me; volleyball players (for example) should be allowed to wear whatever they want.
Comment by Rich — November 20, 2009 @ 9:56 pm
One sport going in the reverse direction over the past 20 years is basketball… (at least in the USA… I saw the Australian womens b-ball team in britt’s link.. a unitard? ugh)
Back in my day, our basketball uniforms featured John Stockton short shorts with a fairly tight sleeveless top.
These days, I am watching my daughter play high school basketball in a much more comfortable, loose fitting uniform… knee length shorts and looser sleeveless top.
BTW - she made the winning basket for her team tonight! Proud mama moment! Woot-Woot!
Comment by twinmomnc — November 21, 2009 @ 2:27 am
mfranti #9 -
I’m not, and I adored watching the Beach Volleyball tournament from the Beijing Olympics. Misty May and Kerri Walsh were so incredibly phenomenal. I really enjoyed watching the men’s teams, too, so it wasn’t really about the teeny-tiny “uniforms.” In fact, I find the bikini “uniforms” pretty offensive, even though I know it’s traditional for the sport because of its origins on CA beaches. But I just love watching the incredible athleticism of the teams, women and men, both.
Comment by Lorian — November 21, 2009 @ 2:44 am
“Cat fight?” … in the title of the article… I would say I can’t believe it, but sadly I can. We’ve still got a long ways to go.
Comment by twinmomnc — November 21, 2009 @ 2:49 am
Incidentally, I saw the clips from the BYU/UNM game. I thought Lambert’s behavior was pretty shocking.
But I’m not sure where you’re coming from with this, britt:
I agree, her actions are unjustified, but the fact is, the story was given a great deal of news coverage, and Lambert has been indefinitely suspended from play and even from practice.
From the Salt Lake Trib:
Seems like it’s been handled appropriately, to me.
Comment by Lorian — November 21, 2009 @ 3:00 am
Lorian…the video went viral on youtube, then the team reacted…IMO the coach should have pulled her from the game (the punches thrown were right were the ball was-the coach should have seen that)…or the ref.s should have noticed. Given neither of these they should have made the decision before it the youtube explosion, not after. There is also much talk about what the real penalty will be-because that was the last game of the season for them. Will she actually sit out a game? That’s when UNM’s response will be clear. Will they watch her behavior more closely (I have a hard time believing this was an anomoly-especially when the ref cards her and she and another player are protesting and the other player keeps standing in front of her-they KNOW she’s generally an out of control person-they protect her from getting carded). They could just say she served her time in the off season-but there’s not much to miss but a scrimage or two. Missing practice and workouts is a joke too- If she’s playing next year I would bet money that they gave her a personal trainer and unique gym time….At the most the team is only allowed 6 weeks of practice in the off season-and some players miss that anyway-it’s a recoup time.
It wasn’t news until the youtube video. Part of that is just the nature of women’s sports getting less coverage in general so people weren’t aware.
Part of my beef with the youtube popularity is that it became popular not because it was shocking-partially that-but because a vast number of people found it sexy. that disgusts me…it felt like it got real news and she got punished because people thought it was sexy.
The comments and way it was news i also didn’t appretitate-the cat fight comments, the “Girl’s sports”, the sexy, the it’s more (or less)shocking because she’s a girl…
Does that make sense Lorian?
Yes I have seen the Brazillion national team.
Beach volleyball uniforms…yes because you generally wear a swimsuit to the beach-it got started that way…BUT-most players prefer one pieces because of the sand issue-and most people I know wear short over their swimsuit because of the sand. There are just some places you don’t want sand going. Really we have olympic athletes having to worry about where the sand is going because someone wants them to look hot.
track uniforms-I ran distance so I preferred those long tight things-in track there isn’t much of a disparity between men and women because tight is more aerodynamic.
Basketball uniforms have improved-soccer uniforms have always been pretty normal!
Comment by britt — November 21, 2009 @ 8:45 am
In Judo I’ll note that the uniforms aren’t different at all.
Even the high end uniforms are sold unisex, FYI (though the rash guards under them do have different shaping, no one sees the parts that are shaped differently).
e.g. http://www.judovision.org/?p=2361
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — November 21, 2009 @ 10:07 am
My 14 yo daughter is in karate. I have only noticed one difference between the men and women- the way they sit when kneeling. Everything else, including the gi they were is exactly the same.
At tournaments, they group by belt level and age until age 17, then it is also separated by gender. She got 3rd place in sparring at her last tournament in the 14-16 group. She would have placed higher but she landed a touch from a kick to her opponent’s head. She lost a point and he gained one.
She also taught a self defense class to the YW for an activity. She was proud, yet somewhat mortified, when one girl showed a move to her mother afterwards and her mother landed on the floor.
Comment by JJ — November 21, 2009 @ 10:48 am
I love the confidence sports give and Karate and judo are great examples of that. The unisex clothing is also wonderful to see- in karate it’s what’s inside that counts-the ability and power. IMO that builds confidence.
Comment by britt — November 21, 2009 @ 10:52 am
I definitely agree about the uniforms. Mostly, guys’ uniforms are made so they can move with ease (although the last few years’ trend of making guys’ basketball shorts look like knee-length silky skirts makes me question my own statement here), but girls’ uniforms frequently make them look like sex symbols. I can’t even stand to look at beach volleyball players, since they look like they’re ready for the Sports Illustrated swimsuit softp*rn issue.
Ugh.
It’s not that I think they should be wearing turtlenecks and long skirts (or even those silk skirts guy basketball players wear), but a basic tank top and shorts that cover their rear ends would be nice.
Comment by A Paperback Writer — November 21, 2009 @ 11:24 am
Don’t misunderstand me about the beach volleyball uniforms, britt. I agree with you completely. I only mentioned that they came from the start of the sport with people playing volleyball on the beach in their bikinis. Personally, I think it makes the sport less likely to be taken seriously at the level at which they are now competing, but what do I know? I’m just a girl. Clearly, it is men who make a sport popular or unpopular, so why cater to what women want to see, right?
As to the news coverage on BYU/UNM, I’m pretty sure I saw it on TV by the next day, but I don’t follow women’s soccer, so who knows?
Incidentally, I saw only videos of Elizabeth Lambert’s behaviors, which were deplorable. I haven’t seen any video of the rest of the game, but I’ve read a couple of comments which indicated that there might have been some misconduct or at least overly rough play from some of the BYU players, as well. I am not espousing this position. I’m just wondering if anyone has seen more of the game that what I saw in the handful of clips which made the news, and if so, if there is anything to these comments at all?
Also, everything I’ve been able to find (in very cursory searches — I have not researched this to any great extent at all, so feel free to correct me if I’ve gotten it wrong), indicates that Lambert has a long history of rough play of this nature. This wasn’t any particularly “special” behavior directed at BYU specifically, right? It’s just her “normal” behavior on the field, but this time it provoked a stronger response? Or was she outrageously mean this time as compared with much better behavior when playing other schools? It’s an honest question. I don’t know the answer.
Comment by Lorian — November 21, 2009 @ 12:33 pm
Lorian, with ESPN 24/7, seeing it on the news the next day (which is also when I saw it) is rather late. It wasn’t on ESPN that night-to my knowledge-they did show it on their morning show. But that’s a bit late for sports news. The way everyone found out was absolutely youtube.
There is definitely rough play by the BYU players. The whole game can be seen on BYUTV. From the portion I watched (about 1/4) the rough play by BYU was in the “normal” range. elbows, tugs…that sort of thing. Things I can’t imagine doing myself, but soccer player friends say is all normal-it’s part of why I didn’t continue in soccer of basketball-I don’t like that “normal”. It’s not at all a case of her being unprovoked, it’s more that she reponded to gunshots with a nuclear bomb.
I have seen indications that Lambert is a “bruiser”. That is why I’m so suspect of UNM’s reaction. It appears this was a little rough even for her…it was a play off game. Surely the coach seeing the ponytail pull-or the punches thrown, should have pulled her immediately. It’s definitely not a BYU directed thing.
I think you hit the nail on the head with the bikini uniform-it’s a symptom and an encouragement towards women’s sports not being taken seriously.
A paperbackwriter, my husband LOVES volleyball and really dislikes the womens’ uniforms-it does feel like soft porn.
Comment by britt — November 21, 2009 @ 1:42 pm
I’m not much of a sports fan, period, because of the aggression/violence aspects. But I do empathize with the frustration over womens’ sports. I used to watch basketball quite a bit about the time the WNBA was started, and the mockery of that league drove me nuts. Dunks are not what basketball is about! These women showed just as much skill and talent in running the pick-and-roll, in driving, and post-up footwork, etc as men–perhaps more, because instead of just relying on raw athleticism they seemed more focused on developing skills. It really opened my eyes at the time to the misogyny still rampant in our society that the women were essentially being mocked for daring to participate in “a man’s game.”
And I agree that the uniforms in womens’ sports are typically sexualized. Though, otoh, I’ve heard more than a few women who like to comment on the derrieres of football players…
Some people think the thuggishness going on in the BYU-UNM games was sexy? How pathetic. I’m disgusted by violence generally in sports, but we should be consistent. If we accept it in men’s sports, then it should be accepted in women’s sports. If we denounce it among women, we should denounce it among men (the better course, IMO).
Comment by Derek — November 21, 2009 @ 2:07 pm
re: 20
And that’s why I don’t like the sort of violence, machismo, etc, in sports at all. It’s entirely natural for those sorts of things to escalate until someone goes ballistic. You can’t expect those sorts of things not to happen when you’re encouraging all the minor violence.
Comment by Derek — November 21, 2009 @ 2:11 pm
Britt, I agree with your husband that even as I man I can’t say I’m a big fan of the female volleyball uniforms. I’m sure sex appeal is part of the reason, but even then they are so skimpy they often look more awkward than sexy.
A few questions about your OP. In the tennis context you noted that women are still “stuck” wearing skirts. Is there a professional requirement that specifically prescribes their dress code? And do you think most female tennis players wear skirts against their wishes? If I remember correctly, I believe Serena Williams makes her own clothes line, and she still often wears skirts (among some other incredibly inventive creations).
And on the salaries issue, I went to the link you posted and saw the picture of the WNBA players. In that picture I also noticed a mostly vacant arena in the background. If women’s sports draw less revenue, do you think it discriminatory that those female athletes, in turn, make less money? If so, how would you recommend the situation be remedied?
Comment by WJ — November 21, 2009 @ 3:12 pm
WJ, I absolutely think that skirts are pretty much “de rigueur” for female tennis players, not because it is necessarily written into their contracts (though it may be in some cases), but because the sport is, overall, so homophobic, still, and wants to make sure the “girls” are still appealing to male fans. They don’t want them looking too “butchy,” whether they are gay or not, because it might be a “turn-off.” Women’s sports in general is still very much about “sex appeal” as opposed to a pure appreciation of the players as athletes.
Comment by Lorian — November 21, 2009 @ 3:25 pm
In other words, if a woman wants to succeed in professional tennis, she must watch her image, and wearing cute flippy little short skirts helps her do that.
Comment by Lorian — November 21, 2009 @ 3:26 pm
Even for trivial things, I see the same. I love to play Fußball and I’ve beat many a guy in my day, which ends badly. Either they don’t talk to me after that, they won’t shake my hand, or they’ll never play against me again. Oh man (literally). It’s a game.
Comment by Michelle Glauser — November 21, 2009 @ 3:27 pm
Are women sometimes their own worst enemy when it comes to this kind of stuff…Williams does have her own line. Much of it sexy. She does have a good body.
As for WNBA salary-or women in general. It is technically the entertainment industry. One could argue purely on the basis of crowds. It’s all a catch 22 though. The WNBA was just starting out so it didn’t have a lot of money-yet how were fans supposed to take it seriously if players weren’t paid enough for the big names to stay in the states or in the sport? Then other issues in how it was treated perpetuated the “it’s not as good”. Does the WNBA not work well because women just aren’t as entertaining to watch (it’s all about the dunk) or are they not as fun to watch strictly because they’re women?
One could also compare compensation of olympic athletes-or soccer where the game is not nearly as different from men’s to women’s (aside from additional hairpulling;)
In sports we do have to look at the fact that men do jump higher, generally they are taller, generally they are stronger…yet women tend to have greater endurance (I know a heap of generalizations there-but they are on the whole true). Basketball and volleyball are great examples-the whole game is different. How they play, how many passes before a shot, the pacing, the style, the plays that work best…it’s just different. Technically not less demanding or less skill involved-just different. Women’s volleyball tends to have more rallies, instead of quick points-which are more common in the men’s. How fun a whole paragraph of generalizations.
In art and music you don’t have those physical issues (okay in opera you might have voice issues). So the prejudice there gets even ickier.
Comment by britt — November 21, 2009 @ 4:43 pm
Speaking of serena williams, here is a lovely article about sexism in tennis….in which Serena says “Hey sex sells” love ya serena http://tennis.fanhouse.com/2009/06/24/sexism-strikes-on-wimbys-own-web-site/
It jsut reminds me that for women-the message is that we aren’t athlete enough, the only way to make up the difference is to sell sex too.
Comment by britt — November 21, 2009 @ 4:52 pm
I remember when a YW basketball ref. called a halt to the game and chewed us out for being too physical/aggressive citing that “basketball was a non-contact sport”. =) Perhaps I’ve just aged myself, do they still have YW sports? I don’t think our stake does. They should.
Comment by lache — November 21, 2009 @ 7:49 pm
lache, there are still YW sports. I should know because I pretty much fouled out of every YW basketball game I played from the time I was 14 on. I wasn’t a particularly violent player, but I played hard and the referees tended to expect that along with the expected lower level of play there would also be a lower level of intensity and physicality. Sports like basketball and soccer are just rough, and physical contact is a part of the game, and there’s nothing inherently masculine about that. Because sports were confined to men for so long, it became seen as masculine to participate in contact sports. It will be awhile before physical contact in sports loses its masculine connotations, but someday it’ll just be physical contact, and not be masculine or feminine.
And I’m guilty of making some of the same plays Elizabeth Lambert did in the BYU/UNM game, with the exception of the punches and the pony-tail pull. The other actions are definitely fouls she should have been (and, in some cases, was) called on by the refs, but nothing outside the scope of the game. The pony-tail pull was completely uncalled for, but is partly the result of poor coaching and poor refereeing. Her coach and the referees let her get completely out of control. She should not have pulled the other girl down, and she’s stated that she knew it was wrong, to do, but it’s the responsibility of the referees and coaches to control the game, and as a player you take advantage of the lee-way they give you. It’s completely disgusting to see the sexual comments that people made about her.
Ahhh, sports, they always bring out the angriest parts of me, which is part of the reason that I’ll just stick with running from now on - you can’t get mad at anyone but yourself
Comment by LT — November 21, 2009 @ 11:27 pm
re: 30 “The pony-tail pull was completely uncalled for, but is partly the result of poor coaching and poor refereeing.”
Good point.
We women are socialized to do so much self-censorship. We don’t say this or do that because it might offend, or cause discomfort to others. Such training must make it hard for women athletes.
GD does Karate. Her spring tournament was the day after her High School Prom last year. She was not, we may say, in top form.
Her opponent in the sparring match landed an excellent kick, knocking GD right on her A… The girl got all concerned,
said, “Oh! I’m so sorry! Are you alright?” The judge lit into her. “This is MARTIAL ARTS! DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR
SCORING!!!”
I’m a big football fan, The League has put in a number of new rules to improve player safety. I notice that the teams with a lot of penalties tend to self-destruct on the scoreboard. The good coaches
don’t tolerate it.
If the Refs and the league rules enforced free kicks for ponytail pulls, the behavior would stop soon enough.
Comment by Betty Jo — November 22, 2009 @ 1:50 pm
It’s good to hear a lot of people talking about equality in the martial arts, since that’s not what I felt about my experience in the sport at BYU. I could wipe the floor with most women and many men, but it didn’t seem to matter. A lot of the guys were still afraid to “hit” me (sparring isn’t real hitting!), and some even bluntly refused. At times I was the only girl in the dojo, and some people, including the sensai, would focus on the fact way too much for my comfort. I suppose they were just trying to be polite, or even show respect. But still others just seemed to think I was “cute”, even when I outranked them. Since when is an angry, screaming, sweaty woman wielding a large stick cute?
Comment by ifrit — November 22, 2009 @ 1:56 pm
I do think the ref.s are partly responsible-as well as the coach-especially if this woman is known for this kind of behavior…BUT an athlete learns to control their own body. That is key to any athlete. You must be able to get your body to do what you want and how you want it….I don’t think self control is a man or woman thing I think it’s a mature thing.
betty jo-I like the judges response-I do think some women take things too personally and do recognize that this is a game-the point of the game is to win.
ifrit- I wonder if the whole competitive thing guys have is their way of expressing their lack of self confidence. Any normal confident guy shouldn’t be fazed if a woman beats him at something. (espcially foozball-where was that comment?)
Comment by britt — November 22, 2009 @ 2:08 pm
Britt:
Since you seem to be one of the more conservative voices, I am surprised they let you do a guest post. FMh is normally all about abortion, gay marriage, and anything bad for society!!!
Comment by Dara — November 22, 2009 @ 2:37 pm
32: ifriti: “I suppose they were just trying to be polite, or even show respect. But still others just seemed to think I was “cute”, even when I outranked them. Since when is an angry, screaming, sweaty woman wielding a large stick cute?”
When the people who say so really wanna be as good as you.
re: Equality in Martial Arts. So this Karate Judge in my post 31, was an interesting woman. She had a 2nd degree black belt, was in, I’m guessing, maybe her early thirties. After the sparring matches (mostly brown belt teens), she sat the girls down. Told ‘em that size matters, and that guys just have more upper body strength. Told ‘em that at black belt competition levels, even successfully blocking can be really painful.
SO, she said, they’ve got to learn to use their legs and feet more to strike from a distance. They had to learn to be fast. And, they couldn’t go jogging around waiting to tire out their opponent, they had to get in and get out. She said that the great thing about kickboxing is that it allows women fighters to use intelligence, speed, agility and long legs to neutralize some of the upper body advantage of men. (note: though tournament sparring may be segregated by sex, sparring practice in schools is rarely so).
Now, I know nothing about Karate, and cannot assess the value of her specific advice. But what I got out of it was:
Here was this teacher. A woman who loved the sport. Teaching about fighting smart - how these young women might best neutralize their weaknesses and exploit their own strengths. She didn’t say ‘everyone is equal’. She said, ‘here’s how to make the best use of what you have’. I thought that was so good.
I don’t know you but I bet you’ll be a teacher like that.
Comment by Betty Jo — November 22, 2009 @ 2:48 pm
Dara, i think it’s why I was asked. We’re really not all that different and there are many issues we can unite on. It’s a good idea to remember that every once in a while.
Comment by britt — November 22, 2009 @ 2:50 pm
Betty Jo, I like that judge! There are differences between men and women-admit them and move on to what we can do to best use our strengths.
Comment by britt — November 22, 2009 @ 2:52 pm
I like that, too, Betty Jo.
Comment by Stephanie — November 22, 2009 @ 3:03 pm
Dara #34 -
Special, Dara. Thanks for that.
Comment by Lorian — November 22, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
re: 31
I think the self-censorship is a good thing. The question is, why aren’t men more socialized for self-censorship (or self-control might be a more accurate term). In mens sports, athletes are typically encouraged to push things as far as you can. In basketball, if you can get away with an elbow when setting a pick, or some pushing when defending in the post, or pushing off on the shot, you do it (so most coaches seem to say). There is little if any discouragement for trash talking, if you can get away with it. Dennis Rodman was respected in many circles for his on-court behavior and pushing of limits (”he’s one competitive sob!). Would a woman be allowed to get away with that sort of behavior?
re: 34
Yes, this board is all about bringing about the downfall of civilization. Please.
Comment by Derek — November 22, 2009 @ 3:39 pm
re: 40 Derek. “I think self censorship is a good thing.”
Well yes, of course. but it’s a matter of degree. With women it can
so readily translate into timidity. One of the good things about girls
sports it seems to me, is that they get girls a little less cerebral, and encourages them to learn its ok to get out in front.
Comment by Betty Jo — November 22, 2009 @ 4:11 pm
I read most of the comments, but admit to skipping to the end to say the following:
I never understood the tennis-in-skirts thing, until I started running. I am a solid supporter of the running skirt - which we have discussed earlier at fmh. The skirt has much more freedom of movement, and in the summer it is very cooling. The difference here is that I have the choice to run in the skirt. I can pick my shorts or pants anytime I want depending on what I am doing (i.e., running on trails usually means I avoid the skirt due to falling in the dirt, but on the road I like the movement).
Also, my sport of choice is triathlon. I get very frustrated at the length of shorts. I cannot fathom why my tri suit has an inseam that is 4-8 inches shorter than the men’s (similar to bike shorts)? It drives me crazy!
Comment by Eris — November 22, 2009 @ 5:44 pm
Derek, yes Rodman was praised in some circles,but his lack of self control on and off the court shortened his career-and some coaches refused to touch him. I really think coaches set the tone. What they allow and encourage (either actively or by choosing to ignore) sets the tone.
clean-but tough-players are always respected whether they are male or female.
thanks eris for that perspective on the skirt. It’s nicer to think of it as a freeing notion, instead of a trap.
I also agree short biking shorts are madness-with the friction of a triathlon a few more inches really helps.
Comment by britt — November 22, 2009 @ 7:07 pm
oh eris, my really good chamois is super short and i hate it (not to mention the leg gasket gives me a rash) i prefer a man chamois but then i run the risk of not having the “protection” in the right spots.
and yes, i know i’m overdue for another tri. you suck!
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 8:10 pm
re: 43
Rodman was an extreme example. The fact that people like Bill Laimbeer, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, John Starks, or Charles Oakley constantly pushed the limits of the rules and of acceptable behavior didn’t do much to limit their careers, and was frequently praised. Does the same happen for extremely physical, demonstrative, or aggressive players in womens’ sports?
Comment by Derek — November 22, 2009 @ 9:42 pm
You’re absolutely right. It’s the same thing as we see in all others of professional competition from women, such as the workplace. What is considered a healthy competitive, assertive attitude from a man is considered “aggressive” and “bitchy” coming from a woman. Not excusing Lambert’s behavior, just agreeing that women and men are held to completely different standards.
Comment by Lorian — November 22, 2009 @ 9:59 pm
My personal feeling is that I prefer the standard to which women are held, on the whole, and would like to see men held to that standard, but I doubt that’s a terribly practical viewpoint. And I don’t like to see women discriminated against who do nothing more than would be considered absolutely acceptable behavior if engaged in by their male peers.
Comment by Lorian — November 22, 2009 @ 10:00 pm
Lorian, I agree. I prefer the female standard as far as self control goes and I do dislike the assertive v. not acceptable double standard.
Derek-my first thought when I read your post (45) was the grunting thing in tennis. Women who grunt are given more grief for it…even though a strong exhale when you hit the ball is proven to mean a stronger hit. That’s aggressive, not wrong.
Maybe because my husband is a laker fan Laimbeer sticks out a bit as a bruiser. At least Barkley could do other things besides just wear down the competition. That conversation starts to be a why I dislike the NBA. There are rules. They literally pick rules to more strongly enforce and to ignore. Apparently the ignore side has always included traveling. If you call the game tight, bruisers have less power. I wonder if refs in the WNBA call a tighter game?
There is a difference in my mind between good aggressive play and getting away with whatever you can. I wish that line were the same for men and women. I also wish that women could be good athletes and not have to worry about being judged as to whether their behavior is ladylike.
Comment by britt — November 23, 2009 @ 8:31 am
I agree that the grunting thing is stupid (I mean the way women are cirticized for grunting, not that they do it), and a minor example of what I’m talking about.
Sounds like we’re on the same page. I don’t necessarily have any problem with aggressive play completely within the rules. Unfortunately, in sports, the goal of winning often encourages people to bend/break the rules, and then that behavior is justified as being competitive when it comes from men. I’ve heard it said that a flag could be thrown on every single play in the NFL (holding, illegal blocks, whatever). I think officiating plays a role, but it isn’t the only factor. I know the coach of the local HS football team teaches his players to be a little rougher, to hold and the like, when they can get away with it, teaching them how to do it secretly. The problem is perpetuated at a number of levels.
The standard for self-control should be much closer to the traditionally women’s standard. Really, isn’t scrupulously following the rules part of integrity? That said, I’d rather a world in which women are respected for pushing the limits just as much as men than a world in which men are encouraged and women chastized for that behavior.
Comment by Derek — November 23, 2009 @ 11:03 am
Derek, as a collegiate athlete I read a book called “The inner game of tennis” it is a classic in competition. One of the principles it talks about is how playing the rules and playing your best is a matter of integrity and shows respect not only to the other player as well as yourself. I like the concept of competition it presents and the philosophy of grace in playing your best and loosing-as opposed to what I see now in my husband’s team-realizing you might loose-giving up so you can later say we could have won if-instead of really challenging yourself and seeing how far you can extend yourself-only to improve yourself the next time.
i have seen coaches teach players how to cheat well. How awful is that?
Some of the coaches I’ve seen are why my children will never play a sport with a coach I don’t know very well.
Comment by britt — November 23, 2009 @ 11:16 am