Riding in cars with boys
Question:
Am I being unreasonable when I request that my just-turned 16 year old daughter not accept rides home from boys?
She says I am.
****
We’re a funny family. Petunia doesn’t have her DL yet and probably wont until she has a job or need for one. We, the parents, don’t believe that most kids deserve the privilege of operating a motor vehicle just because they turned 16. We also don’t like the idea of most kids (Petunia, especially) driving around in cars with other teenagers. Teenagers are the most likely group of people to be involved in an accident.
Then there’s the other safety issue. My dear sweet daughter riding in a car with a strange boy could find herself in situations she might not be ready for or capable of handling. I’m not so charitable as she is. I believe that boys that drive home girls (especially boys that don’t live close by) have an agenda. My daughter, naive girl that she is, just thinks he’s being really nice.
That said, I realize that it’s going to happen at some point in the near future. But does it have to happen one week after her 16th birthday? Is it too much for me to ask that she find some responsible kids that I know to accept rides from? Just because she’s 16, doesn’t mean I stop worrying about her safety, does it?
How would you handle it?
I really want to hear from moms and dads that have been through this.
Well, I really haven’t been through this yet, but I don’t think you’re being unreasonable AT ALL. I used to teach a 10th grade health class (15-16 year olds) and one of our units of study was on acquaintance rape. No one thinks it’s going to happen to them, but it happens a lot.
Plus the other thing about teens driving together. No good!
Comment by meems — November 22, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
Does your state allow it? Some states don’t allow 16yos to drive friends around for precisely for the safety reason.
Perhaps the boy in question can request permission from you and/or your husband? I’m old fashioned that way and it may keep the boys motives a little more honest when he knows you are watching. You could also get to know them.
Is this a regular occurence? Where is petunia walking from?
Comment by britt — November 22, 2009 @ 2:04 pm
From my own experience (I’m 23 and childless), a ban on rides with guys would have severely limited my mobility as a teenager, when most of my friends were guys. Rules like this just made me stop telling my parents anything, and I used to sneak out to go on walks at night with friends, leaving notes or telling my sister where I was but never my parents (partially because they wouldn’t let me and partially because I didn’t want them to worry). We lived in a safe neighborhood, and I cared about church standards enough that I didn’t go any farther than kissing with guys, and then only when I was genuinely interested. My friend group really was genuinely nice and we’d go out of our way to give each other rides; I still see many of them regularly and am now engaged to one of my high school guy friends. If your daughter is at all like I was, I’d focus on teaching her to recognize and get out of problem situations, choose good friends, and that she can call you in a sticky situation and you’ll tell her “she’s not allowed” to be wherever it is, giving her a handy excuse to leave. Again, it depends on your daughter’s personality and the kind of friends she hangs out with, but for me blanket bans on what I saw as reasonable behavior just distanced me from my parents as a teen.
Comment by leisurelyviking — November 22, 2009 @ 2:16 pm
I turned 16 a year after everyone else in my grade, and grew up in a rural area. There were boys who gave me rides home after study groups, etc, who WERE just being nice. I’m certain of it, because I wasn’t pretty enough for it to have been anything else! But my parents also knew them, since they had decided that their house was going to be one of the ones that was always open for teenagers to hang out at. (Better, they thought, to have us under their roof than not!).
Invite the boy over for dinner, perhaps? Get to know him, and then make a decision? Talk to your daughter about how to cope should things go south? I mean, in two years she may be out on her own, and it’s probably better to have her learn how to discern the motives of men while she’s got you to ask for advice . . .
(Advice offered tentatively, since my daughter is still safely ensconced in my uterus, and so not getting into much trouble)
Comment by Beth — November 22, 2009 @ 2:20 pm
As a parent who is still closer to being 16 than having a 16 year old I think there is a compromise to be reached. A car full of teenagers on their way to a movie might be a little rowdy and a little much for your comfort zone. I get that. But a male friend giving her a ride home from a church or school activity? Particularly one you already know? I would have called that reasonable as a teenager and I still do. My parents got to know my guy friends, I always told them who would be driving, when we would be home, who else was going to be in the car, etc. If they hadn’t trusted the boy I’m sure they would have made it known. But, frankly most of my guy friends were gay theater nerds in high school and my parents thought they were the nicest guys ever. When I started dating, however, they got to know those boys, too and never had a problem with it then, either. They might have had more of a problem with certain of my ditzy girlfriends driving me around then my good guy friends.
Comment by Alyssa — November 22, 2009 @ 2:36 pm
How long are the rides? That would make a difference to me. From school to the DQ, a few blocks, 10 minutes or less, vs. a 45-minute ride on highways to another stake’s youth dance: those are a big difference.
I also think there’s a big difference between accepting a ride from a “strange boy” (meaning one you, her parents, don’t KNOW or one that you, the parents, don’t LIKE or TRUST?) and accepting a ride from a known quantity kid in the ward whom she’s known for years…
That said, no: it’s not too much to ask that her transportation is provided by someone that you, the parents, know and trust. That seems a reasonable bare minimum.
Also, speaking as the mom of a recently-licensed boy (who’s not allowed under state law to drive anyone except immediate family until age 17+), I would say that I wouldn’t want him offering rides to girls he didn’t know well, or whose parents weren’t completely comfortable with him being the transportation.
Comment by jeans — November 22, 2009 @ 2:37 pm
I don’t know the boy. I’ve never heard his name until this week.
she says she’s known him since 7th grade but she doesn’t go to West High School where everyone else goes. I’m concerned that he’s driving from his school to hers because I’m pretty sure she doesn’t attend City Academy with anyone from her junior high. If I’m right about him, I think it’s creepy.
As for transportation, She, like me and her step-dad, use public transportation and bike to get to school/work. We 2 miles outside of Downtown SLC, so we’re close to everything.
I agree with many that say if he was a neighbor boy or someone I knew and trusted, this would be easier to digest.
I’m curious about the idea that imposing rules is somehow going to push her the other way. That kid has a ton of freedom (she just doesn’t know it) and we let her go and do just about anything as long as it’s with people we know. I don’t think she’s old enough or mature enough to start dating or “hanging out” solo with boys, that’s for sure but going to the movies and things like that are perfectly acceptable.
oh man, the things they don’t tell you in the parenting books when you have that cute little baby in your lap.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 3:01 pm
All right, that does sound creepy. On the other hand, when I first got my license, I would have driven out of my way to give someone a ride because of the joy of driving, so that might actually be part of his motivation. I would tell her that she’s not allowed to ride in cars with people you don’t know, and encourage her to let you get to know him. Because if it’s all open and above board, he probably will see no problem in coming to your house and letting you see he’s a good kid, and if he balks, then that confirms your fears.
Comment by Beth — November 22, 2009 @ 3:09 pm
mfranti, reading this from you makes me smile. Just because I remember your comments on other parenting issues like this and how you are raising your daughter to be independent and smart. I can picture her saying, “Mom! You let me take the bus all over Salt Lake and yet I can ride for 5 minutes with a friend?!?!” (or at least that’s what I would have said) Anyways, it’s nice to hear you are a “human” parent, too.
That said, I don’t have any good advice! Thank goodness I am not there yet.
Teenagers aren’t always that smart and don’t pick up on the cues. I accepted a ride home from a completely strange man when I was 17. My mom just about shot me when I got home. “If you are going to be that stupid and get yourself killed, I might as well kill you first!”
With my limited parenting experience, I am learning the art of latitude. We are a no sleepover house - except that my 9 year old REALLY wants a slumber party and has a good friend from a good family, and can he pleeeeeeeeeeeeease for once in his life feel what a sleepover is like? I said yes (still trying to convince DH). I am finding that this is happening more often. And it gives me the opportunity to talk about listening to the Spirit and doing things to make sure you are safe. I agree with someone above who said that at some point, she’ll be on her own and needs to learn to navigate.
But, if you have a bad feeling, you have a bad feeling. I’m not much help. Good luck.
Comment by Stephanie — November 22, 2009 @ 3:20 pm
I meant “can’t ride with a friend” in that first paragraph.
Comment by Stephanie — November 22, 2009 @ 3:20 pm
you don’t know him and your spidey senses are tingling…that’s good enough for me.
She does have lots of freedom-one or two-trust mom’s spidey senses will be good.
Of course ask him around-if he comes-great-get to know him…if he doesn’t case closed
Comment by britt — November 22, 2009 @ 3:24 pm
Having zilch parenting experience, I can’t really give any advice. I do think there are boys out there who would give rides because they were nice and without any agenda. But given the number of predators out there, can you take that gamble with Petunia? I’d probably side with you. The risk seems too great. No rides from anyone you don’t know and trust. It isn’t cool, but a lot of good parenting isn’t cool, right?
Comment by Derek — November 22, 2009 @ 3:29 pm
Unfortunately, yes.
Comment by Stephanie — November 22, 2009 @ 3:30 pm
” That said, I realize that it’s going to happen at some point in the near future. But does it have to happen one week after her 16th birthday? Is it too much for me to ask that she find some responsible kids that I know to accept rides from? Just because she’s 16, doesn’t mean I stop worrying about her safety, does it?”
You know the answers to these questions. No. No, No. You are not being unreasonable. Because something is inevitable, doesn’t mean it ought be encouraged or permitted. I say this one is worth the fight over. Good luck.
Comment by Betty Jo — November 22, 2009 @ 4:19 pm
If you think it’s creepy, then it is. You aren’t a helicopter mom and you aren’t unreasonable. You can always revisit the issue according to your comfort zone. Go with your gut.
Comment by Kimberly — November 22, 2009 @ 4:30 pm
Near as I recall, the only thing to do with goodhearted and strong willed 16 year old, is get a lead around her neck and dig in your heels. When she’s strong enough to pull you over, then is the time you say “oh well.”
Comment by Betty Jo — November 22, 2009 @ 4:36 pm
#9 - I love that! If my child is going to die, it’s going to be on MY TERMS! Sorta goes along with that “I created you, and I can destroy you!” parenting method.
I think you should ask her about the guy. Does he drive like an idiot? Does he text while driving? Is he the kind of person you want to put your life in the hands of? Stuff like that. Give her the power to make the decision on a case by case basis.
If you teach her how to size up a potential ride now, that skill will come in handy later. There are some 25-year-old drivers that are maniacs, and she’ll be a lot better off evaluating her potential chauffeurs based on capability instead of age. Some 16-year-olds are good, cautious drivers and some ain’t. The same goes for any age.
Of course, if the main concern is the guy getting all handsy, you can compromise and let her get rides from boys as long as she brushes up on her vehicular escape techniques.
http://www.wikihow.com/Jump-from-a-Moving-Car
Tuck and roll, Petunia!
Comment by Cross — November 22, 2009 @ 4:43 pm
I think it’s hard for boys to be seen as automatically untrustworthy by parents of other children. Perhaps it’s something they’ll just have to learn to cope with, but being suddenly judged potentially dangerous by a friend’s parents has to sting a little, right?
I think at a certain age you have to teach your children prudence and judgment, rather than trying to make all decisions for them from a distance. There certainly are boys who do give rides just to be nice, and from whom it is very reasonable to accept a ride. Blanket bans on sometimes-reasonable behavior make parents seem unreasonable, and give the impression that the parents think the teen has poor judgment or is untrustworthy. She needs to practice making these kinds of decisions before she’s off on her own. The ability to ‘read’ male intentions doesn’t just happen on its own– it takes practice and it’s a very, very important skill for a young woman.
I vote for having a set of ‘approved’ boys. At least during daylight hours. Even if it’s just ones you think are in the closet.
Comment by z — November 22, 2009 @ 4:53 pm
Also, some teenage girls are really bad drivers. Perhaps you should consider banning a few of them. Keep your eye on the police report for accidents.
This is all very heteronormative. Shouldn’t you be worried about those handsy teen lesbians too?
Comment by z — November 22, 2009 @ 4:56 pm
mfranti, I didn’t mean to imply that imposing any rules will make your teen push the other way. I think the important thing is that your daughter feels that the rules are reasonable. Make sure she understands why you’re making these rules, and stick to your own reasoning. For example, if you justify your concern by citing bad drivers and creepy boys, if she can prove to you that a particular boy is a good driver and not creepy, the logical thing to do is to make an exception. Otherwise she might see you as either illogical or unwilling to tell her your real reasons, both of which might provoke rebellious behavior on her part. Of course, this depends on your daughter’s personality, too.
Comment by leisurelyviking — November 22, 2009 @ 5:06 pm
Beth, um, rape is not about sex, it’s about control etc. I know of at least two particular girls who were raped, and they were quite unattractive. One was raped walking home from school (she took the same path home every day, and i’m sure that she must have had a stalker. It wasn’t about how attractive she was, it was about window of opportunity. The other case was similar, it was opportunity, not attractiveness.
Comment by Ian Cook — November 22, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
Are you going to tell your 16 year old son not to accept rides from girls? Or if he is driving, to not offer rides to the opposite gender?
Think about these things before making it a rule. Ideally, you are teaching your daughter to someday make decisions for herself about who to accept a ride home from and who to get into a car with. Think also about what her peers are doing and whether you are putting her in a position to have to uncomfortably turn down offers of rides . Is everyone else driving or getting driven by friends or parents now that they are all 16? Is anyone else taking public transport? Do you need to offer to pick her up because otherwise she is vulnerable to the teenagers with cars?
Just make sure you understand that wisdom is sometimes gained through experience, and that your daughter will never truly be “safe” even as a 30 year old woman.
Good luck. It is hard to adjust to my daughter being 12 so I have been feeling your exact pain this week in particular about wondering if I am being unreasonable in thinking age 12 in 6th grade is too young for our particular issue right now and debating both sides and wondering why some seems to act like its no big deal and some people swear 12 is way too young (for Twilight and New Moon).
Comment by jks — November 22, 2009 @ 5:13 pm
Ian, a freakin’ men!
i was going to address that but you beat me to it.
z, i agree, it sucks for boys in that respect but it sucks for girls too. boys have WAY more freedom because they typically aren’t going to be the victim of sexual assault.
i did a lot of stupid shtuff in my youth. stuff that could have got me in serious trouble if I hadn’t been lucky (as it was i did get pg at 18) i think it’s fair for me to err on the side of caution because i can see things she can’t.
i think it would be fair for me to have her introduce me to the boy that is driving her home and ask questions.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 5:14 pm
ohhh, and i hate that i had to admit that….
i hate that i have to treat my girl different from how I would potentially treat my boy of the same age.
but girls….
well, they’re different, no? or am i way off here?
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 5:25 pm
mfranti,
why did you make these stupid decisions?
and what were your parent’s rules?
just curious.
Comment by belli — November 22, 2009 @ 5:27 pm
belli, are you new to fMh?
i did stupid stuff because I was naive. i thought i was invincible. i thought the boy liked me. i thought i was smart. I thought…
you get the gist.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 5:31 pm
I know my daughter would take the bus before she got her driver’s license. She complained about the number of guys hitting up on her. And, this also happened to a YW in our ward using the bus.
Yes, the worries of auto accident or rape are justified, though.
Me too.
That might scare some bad guys, but not all. Still, a good idea.
jks: Instruct her well, for she may be offered rides at her age.
Comment by Mike H. — November 22, 2009 @ 5:32 pm
Seems like a reasonable request to want to meet the kid. Then you can decide if he’s someone you want her riding with. I got rides home all the time from guys and I look back on a couple of those rides with the realization that I was in kind of a bad situation, I just didn’t recognize it at the time.
That being said, she is a smart kid and you have taught her well. I would talk to her and try to come to an understanding.
A possible out, at least for a few months, would be the recent law that teenagers can’t drive anyone with under 21 (or 18?) in the car unless they are an immediate relative.
Comment by Eris — November 22, 2009 @ 5:32 pm
People get sexually assaulted on public transportation too. If she and a strange man are alone at a bus stop or whatever, is that really safer than in a car with a boy she’s decided is trustworthy? And I’ve had my rear end grabbed while biking a bunch of times– between that and getting run over, biking really isn’t that safe.
I’m well aware (being a girl myself) that boys have WAY more freedom. But I would suggest that perhaps you can find a more sensitive way to tell the boys you already know why you won’t let them give your daughter a ride, so as not to give the impression that you have a worse opinion of them than you really do.
I think the important question to ask is this: is she getting enough practice dealing with men, so that she will be able to be safe when she is making her own decisions and only consulting you at her discretion?
Comment by z — November 22, 2009 @ 5:35 pm
but in your particular situation with your daughter right now - how do you think your parents would decide?
no, i am not new to fmh. but i barely ever comment.
Comment by belli — November 22, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
The standard should be the same for boys as for girls you allow to drive your children around — and the same for men and women. And that standard, generally speaking, should be that you need to know the people driving your kids around. I wouldn’t want a teenage daughter being driven around by a teenage girl I don’t know any more than a teenage boy I don’t know.
The biggest risk of getting into a car with a teenager is not sexual infidelity, but death or injury in a car accident.
Comment by Zack — November 22, 2009 @ 5:40 pm
well, asking about what my parent would have done isn’t a good place to start. some of the more experienced parents on this board are.
btw, if you are who i think you are, please don’t attempt to pick a fight with me over this.
if you’re not, my apologies in advance.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 5:41 pm
I would say if you feel strongly about this, go with your feelings.
The older I get the more I realize how we need to protect our children - and at 16 it’s no different. I think we often hope our kids will get more and more independent - but we have to be careful too. I know two girls from when I was a young adult who died in car crashes with boys driving. What a tragedy.
Comment by Dawn — November 22, 2009 @ 5:48 pm
Hmmm…just left here and went to my blog roll and read a story about four teenage girls killed in a car accident here:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/story/2009/11/22/calgary-nanton-fatal-crash.html?ref=rss
So sad.
I think we could probably debate safety standards and statistics ad naseum. You can’t argue gut feelings though. Go with your gut feelings. Don’t let her drive with boys if that is what’s worrying you. Those gut feelings are there for a reason. We should listen to them.
Comment by Dawn — November 22, 2009 @ 5:56 pm
Hey Mfranti,good luck with this.DD,now 27,would accept no counsel from anyone,and resented all attempts to keep her reasonably safe as we saw it.
Like yourselves,we were liberal and attempted to treat her reasonably and negotiate wherever possible and safe to do so.
By 17 she had herself a job and an apartment,considering that any attempt to draw boundaries was an infringement on her autonomy.
It was hell,and frankly,although we struggled against it,we were glad to give up the fight.In retrospect,I’m really not sure what we could have done differently.
I think it’s important to be kind,to be reasonable,and to know when to give up.You do know better than her,but she can’t be expected to know that.Some kids just buy the idea that they have a right to learn from their own experience-it’s what everyone but mormondom tells them.What matters more than anything is keeping your daughter’s love,because it’s a long game.
If she’ll let you,keep it cordial.
May the road rise to meet you sister.
Comment by wayfarer — November 22, 2009 @ 6:00 pm
i don’t have any kids yet, so i am certainly not one to be asked about parenting advice. i am however very interested in this discussion because i am trying to kind of “prepare” for the time when i will have kids (if that is even possible). i often think about how my parents raised me, what their advice and their rules were and how all of that made me feel. i wonder how the sometimes bad feelings in our interactions could have been prevented by them reacting differently, by them having different rules etc. or if certain things are just inevitable. i can’t go back and be a better teenager but i can go an be a better parent (if that is possible.)
so, that is why i asked you about your parents and how they made you feel. maybe that retrospection could help you makeing the right decision with your daughter.
Comment by belli — November 22, 2009 @ 6:05 pm
belli,
my sincerest apologies. i will address your questions in a bit.
i am currently discussing this post with petunia.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 6:09 pm
I don’t think it’s unreasonable at all.
Comment by skippy — November 22, 2009 @ 6:29 pm
21, 23
Okay, you folks realize that there are male personalities between “perfect priesthood holder” and “serial rapist”, don’t you? Some guy could just be a jerk that only gives rides to women he thinks are attractive. That’s unfair to accuse Beth of rape-culture- ignorance when all she’s saying is that she thinks she wasn’t pretty enough for the jerks to give her rides.
Comment by Cross — November 22, 2009 @ 6:49 pm
Well, if you’re really not going to move to a place that outlaws teens driving around anyone but their own family members, then it seems reasonable to impose some basic rules, kind of along the same lines as, “I don’t let you go play/hang out with friends or spend the night over with kids I don’t know. This also applies to people who are taking your life in their hands by putting you into a 1/2-ton metal box and careening through snowy city streets where other drivers are not paying particular attention to your vehicle. You’re such a charming and entertaining young person, I wouldn’t want you to distract your relatively inexperienced chauffer and I wouldn’t want said chauffer trying to do something dumb to impress you with his/her ability to drive with one foot hanging out the window and one hand on the cell phone.
“Therefore, you may not ride in the car with another teenage driver until I’ve had a chance to meet said driver, speak with him/her in person, see the car that will be driven around, and then make my decision. I reserve the right to withhold or revoke my permission to ride at any time and for any reason.
“Furthermore, if you ever accept a ride from a pre-approved friend and you feel unsafe continuing to ride in his/her car, I promise to come pick you up wherever you feel safe enough to exit the car and call me with your cell phone.”
Sure, there’s risk riding around town on the bus or TRAX (or even on a bicycle), but YOU are in control of your bicycle and the public transportation drivers are (a) very experienced (especially more experienced than a teenager); (b) specially licensed; and (c) driving the bigger vehicle and thus less likely to be squished to pieces by anything else.
Comment by Just4Fun — November 22, 2009 @ 7:13 pm
cross, i wasn’t accusing beth of anything and i don’t think beth is ignorant. i totally got what she was saying.
i just wanted to take it a step further by agreeing with ian that rape is about control and being pretty or not doesn’t have anything to do with it.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 7:14 pm
I think my take on it might be a little more of, “you can’t accept rides from strange kids, period.”
If I don’t know ‘em (especially if it’s a guy) then I don’t want you to ride home with them. IF, however, you bring some friends home for me to meet, I’m more likely to get to know your friends (and potential rides), therefore you can accept more rides.
I’d reserve the right to veto particular friends. For instance, I had a friend (17) who looooved to drive his very fast sporty car 45 mph around the 15 mph hairpin bends in the country roads that stretched between my house and school. My mom knew about this, knew the kid, and would look at him very seriously before he left and say, “don’t speed.” He didn’t nearly as much with me as with others. But if I were my mom, I might just have vetoed Shane as a ride buddy… in fact if I’d told her everything about him and his driving record, she likely WOULD have vetoed him and I would have grumbed but agreed, and then accepted the occasional ride anyway.
My mom had a rule that I couldn’t leave campus with my friends for lunch, esp if they were driving… even my senior year of high school when all my friends socialized by going out someplace off campus to eat lunch.
i was a pretty straight-arrow kid… I went. Almost every day. And crouched down in the seat when I saw a vehicle that looked like my MOm’s van anywhere nearby.
So in the end, it might be that rules will sort of hedge your teenager’s behavior, but it’s very likely that there will be instances that she’ll break rules anyway. And so the most important thing is to teach her street-smarts and common sense to deal with the situations you fear will happen.
Comment by sare — November 22, 2009 @ 7:48 pm
I think my take on it might be a little more of, “you can’t accept rides from strange kids, period.”
If I don’t know ‘em (especially if it’s a guy) then I don’t want you to ride home with them. IF, however, you bring some friends home for me to meet, I’m more likely to get to know your friends (and potential rides), therefore you can accept more rides.
I’d reserve the right to veto particular friends. For instance, I had a friend (17) who looooved to drive his very fast sporty car 45 mph around the 15 mph hairpin bends in the country roads that stretched between my house and school. My mom knew about this, knew the kid, and would look at him very seriously before he left and say, “don’t speed.” He didn’t nearly as much with me as with others. But if I were my mom, I might just have vetoed Shane as a ride buddy… in fact if I’d told her everything about him and his driving record, she likely WOULD have vetoed him and I would have grumbed but agreed, and then accepted the occasional ride anyway.
My mom had a rule that I couldn’t leave campus with my friends for lunch, esp if they were driving… even my senior year of high school when all my friends socialized by going out someplace off campus to eat lunch.
I was a pretty straight-arrow kid. The kind who really, really tried hard to please my parents. But I went to lunch with my friends. Almost every day my senior year. And crouched down in the seat when I saw a vehicle that looked like my MOm’s van anywhere nearby.
So in the end, it might be that rules will sort of hedge your teenager’s behavior, but it’s very likely that there will be instances that she’ll break rules anyway. And so the most important thing is to teach her street-smarts and common sense to deal with the situations you fear will happen.
Comment by sare — November 22, 2009 @ 7:48 pm
She’s finally allowed to date and she’s probably looked forward to this time for a long time. How is she supposed to go on a date without getting in the car? Of course you’re uncomfortable! This is brand new stuff for both of you. But my friends who were banned from doing all the normal teenage things eventually grew to resent their parents, lied to them, and soon became really poor decision makers.
If I were you, I’d ask to get to know the guy she wants to get in the car with. She could invite him to a family dinner (where he will likely be awkward no matter how great he is). Give her a cell phone and a curfew. If she’s been a trustworthy girl and you know her friends, show her you trust her and let her go. Since you can never completely trust the guy, make sure she always has that cell phone and a way to reach a responsible adult if she feels comfortable. If she breaks curfew or forgets her phone, then it’s time to take away privileges.
Comment by Motion de Smiths — November 22, 2009 @ 8:16 pm
Perhaps one way to address this situation is to have a rule about never riding alone with a guy, to always have a girl friend along for the ride too.
Teaching “street smarts” is a difficult task. Starting with the fact that your gut tells you there is a problem, and asking what she thinks you should do about that might help. Goodluck!
Comment by Chibbylick — November 22, 2009 @ 8:17 pm
*uncomfortable
Comment by Motion de Smiths — November 22, 2009 @ 8:17 pm
Seek to say yes, whenever you can, but parents are given the gift of inspiration for their children. More importantly they can have that for themselves, because increasingly we are NOT in the same space or place. Age 16 and 17 are fraught with all kinds of drama and trauma. Each child is different. Some children are so grounded and wise for their years, some naive, or rebellious, or both. And they can change at any time from one to the other! And do. As mom’s, it is really important we live worthy of the blessings of inspiration. I tried not to make a lot of blanket rules. There were times we had to be very connected and mindful and on top of things with some of our children at different times. I feel that teens shouldn’t drive teens as a rule….even I get distracted with friends in the car! I have seen way to many have tragic or fatal accidents at age 16 or 17. A boy that is safe today, may not be safe tomorrow. A girl that is trustworthy today, may change in a few weeks given the right ( wrong ! ) circumstances. It is an extremely important age. I worry a little sometimes about the many on this list who feel so negatively about youth activities and authority….and how that might wind up affecting your youth at important times in their development. …I think the most important thing is not street smarts ( although that IS important…and I have not yet figured out the secret to teaching COMMON SENSE! ) ..I think the most important thing is each teen’s own testimony and own ability and willingness to listen to the still small voice for their own safety and guidance. We had to UP our dedication to the foundational practices of FHE, family prayer, scripture reading, and communication during the late teen years. ( Before then, I had thought we would have been sort of ‘Home Free!’…I was wrong! ) Good luck. You are the parent, and you child is still developing that frontal lobe of decision making! They still do not see consequences very clearly or think very far ahead, and are very self- centered, and aching to grow up and be considered as such. They like to be in the middle of things socially, and desire attention from the opposite sex, and acceptance from their own peers. Parents are a bit of a non-issue in a way. Think of the Charlie Brown adults! Good luck. Every child is so different, but Heavenly Father knows them. I found I grew a lot spiritually in my children’s teen years. I was so thankful for the guidance of the church in general. And as a mom, I was much more involved and in tune with all the big hairy discussions of life, and death, and sex, and relationship than my husband. Because I was there at the crossroads, and he was not. I had to be on task, even though I didn’t always feel up to it. But I found I was not alone.
Comment by Melissa P. — November 22, 2009 @ 8:37 pm
You might have an out w/o having an argument, in Utah I think (not positive) that kids can’t drive anyone for the first 6 or 12 months of getting their license. So just maybe the boys are new drivers and they can’t legally drive her anyway.
Good luck!
Comment by no name — November 22, 2009 @ 8:50 pm
ohhh, and i hate that i had to admit that….
i hate that i have to treat my girl different from how I would potentially treat my boy of the same age.
but girls….
well, they’re different, no? or am i way off here?
I don’t agree that they are all that different. While the risk of sexual assault might be different there are so many other risks there too that I think it is unfair to give boys a pass that you don’t give girls.
I dated and hung out boys that didn’t drive and didn’t have a car so I went and picked them up and my parents didn’t meet them yet (at 17). If my parents had thought they needed to pull out a shotgun to clean before every date then I’d have been pretty pissed off.
If you think a 16 year old boy is old enough to make judgements about which opposite gender person to be alone with then your girl is too.
A boy might get into a car with an unknown girl who has drugs, or brings drugs into his car. Or who drives recklessly. Or who is a psycho stalker or something. Who comes onto him and doesn’t take no for an answer. Who is manipulative? Is your 16 year old ready to handle that?
If we are just talking about the risk of sexual assault then your daughter is NEVER going to be safe. But if we are talking about OTHER safety issues or MATURITY to be able to handle dicey opposite gender situations then boys and girls should be treated THE SAME.
So, I am in the no double standard camp. Sure, I will warn my daughters about dangers, but they are not getting extra rules just because they are girls.
Comment by jks — November 22, 2009 @ 8:56 pm
“I believe that boys that drive home girls … have an agenda.”
Uh… wow. Reading this on FMH is like hearing Evel Knievel say he’ll only drive a Volvo when he’s on the freeway, because other cars aren’t safe enough.
(I don’t mean to suggest that FMH advocates recklessness or any other negative thing. It’s just that this post––and the majority conclusion––seems very, very conservative in comparison with the common tenor of discussions here. Of course, I don’t have any kids, so I certainly won’t/can’t second-guess any other parent’s decisions about rearing their children.)
Comment by Latter-day Guy — November 22, 2009 @ 8:58 pm
petunia is a smartie M, meet the dude and trust your judgment, but also trust hers. You aren’t a helicopter mom by any means, but we both know that you are very close to her and are having a hard time with her growing up now that its an actuality instead of a hypothetical. Instead of a gender based rules why not a blanket statement such as I must meet all drivers etc. She is totally gonna call you on your hypocrisy otherwise. You know you would hate it if someone were discriminate or make assumptions about petunia based on her gender.
Comment by ..just call me cassandra — November 22, 2009 @ 9:01 pm
I think this is very true. I realized this with my 9 year old son a few months ago. He went and played at a house I hadn’t approved of yet (although he had asked many times - I just kept saying no because I hadn’t met the father yet). One day when he came home from another friend’s, he said something that didn’t sound right, and I gathered that he had really been playing at the not-approved house. So, I started in how he needs to obey, I’m doing this for his safety, blah, blah. He was defensive. I said, “You need to ask! You always need to ask” and he broke and started to cry and said, “But if I would have asked, you would have just said no”. I realized then that we need more latitude. Navigating this parenting stuff is not easy.
mfranti #24 - this is an interesting question. Theoretically, of course you should treat boys and girls exactly the same. In practical application, it is more complicated.
Comment by Stephanie — November 22, 2009 @ 9:04 pm
belli,
it’s because I didn’t have a ton of real guidance or concern for my long term safety and success that I am the way I am with my daughter. I have no desire in being the kind of parent that protects her kid from every little germ and bad thing but I do want to give her every opportunity to be safe–that might include, tightening up on the lead in certain situations until i’m sure there’s no danger (k., that’s dog training speak and no, i’m not comparing my kid to a dog)
but it wasn’t too long ago that I was her age and doing stuff that got me in trouble.I know how arbitrary rules will affect teens and I know that if i just say NO without any logic behind it, it’s just gonna push her away.
teens are tricky and mine is no exception. i’m doing the best i can.
thanks all. this thread has reduced my anxiety level by 100 percent.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 9:05 pm
This sounds reasonable. There are likely adults you don’t want Petunia driving with either. And some kids that you would feel fine about.
Comment by Stephanie — November 22, 2009 @ 9:06 pm
latter day guy, i’m a VERY conservative person.ust because my politics lean center left, doesn’t mean i’m not very conservative in my child rearing and home-life. (btw, can anyone explain what liberal parenting looks like. that would be a fun thread)
did you find my blanket statement of teen boys offensive? I’m sorry if it did but i think you might understand my POV better when you find yourself dealing with a very impressionable teenage daughter.
all the romatic ideals we have about parenting and childhood fly out the window when we’re parenting in real time.
ps that’s a genuine apology. i knew when i wrote that sentence about boys it would irk some folks. but it’s how i feel and i’ll be happy to be proven wrong. on a case by case basis, of course.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 9:09 pm
jks, you make a good point.
i don’t know how i’d react. i don’t have teenage boys. I can only go off what i think i would do.
its complicated. i don’t pretend to know the answer either.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 9:21 pm
“did you find my blanket statement of teen boys offensive?”
Oh, no. Just surprising. In my mind, it seems tied to the “boys-only-want-one-thing” attitude, which, in turn, is often associated with the “damaged-goods” rationale for abstinence––which is clearly not FMH style!
I certainly appreciate that real-life parenting and real-life kids can require practical steps that are less “romantic.” It’s like what Robin Williams said about seeing boys congregated on his porch like cats, asking for his daughter: “Screw the liberal s—! Get the hose!“
Comment by Latter-day Guy — November 22, 2009 @ 9:21 pm
ld guy, that’s so true.
since belle is on the blessed side of the physical appearance scale she is often the recipient of random gifts from boys.
I’ll ask her, why would he give you that? and she’ll say because he’s nice.
I say, wrong answer. it’s because he likes you and when you accept any item, you give him a glimmer of hope so don’t accept things from boys that you are not interested in.
my husband concurs. most boys aren’t that thoughtful.
she didn’t get it the first time until i put it to her this way:
if you didn’t like a boy in the romantic sense, would you think to buy him a gift when you were “just at the store”.
she says: “heck no, i wouldn’t want to give him the wrong idea.”
exactly!
it’s kinda my take on car rides with boys. only she’s stuck in the car and if he turns out to be a creep, she might get hurt.
as she said to me tonight:
“i get it. it’s a mama bear thing.”
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 9:33 pm
By street smarts I mean more than just “this is a condom” type things. I mean, discuss what sorts of situations are not good to get into. Discuss the things that happen to girls sometimes. Give your daughter a can of pepper spray for her birthday.
Comment by sare — November 22, 2009 @ 9:34 pm
that means listen to your mama!
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 9:36 pm
btw, i think i will meet this new kid. if i deem him worthy, i might allow it.
depends on my (thanks britt) spidey sense.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 9:39 pm
Just a couple of thoughts. I’m not sure that you can keep her from riding in the car with boys. She obviously is a responsible 16 year old and a blanket no riding in cars is (in my opinion) kind of heavy. At 16 most young women are allowed to begin dating and as someone upthread stated, that would be difficult if not impossible.
I’m curious about the suggestions to meet the boy first. Say that you meet him and then don’t like him. What do you say? Sorry, she’s not going to the movie with you? Awkward and bound to cause major difficulties with the daughter.
Having raised two daughters I can sympathize with you that it isn’t easy watching her assert that independence that you have carefully taught. On the other hand, the satisfaction of seeing her do things the right way after all your hard work at teaching them is worth it. It does get easier. Also, maybe she deserves a chance to prove her grown-up-ness.
You only explained your point of view. I’m sure Petunia had some valid points in her favor.
Comment by numi — November 22, 2009 @ 9:39 pm
The more I think about it, the more I would agree with those who are making this a gender-neutral issue. As scary as the sexual issue is, M and others have pointed to some troubling stats about simply driving with multiple passengers at that age. Making some restrictions about riding with other teens,regardless of sex, seems worthwhile.
Beth, I’m sorry you felt too unattractive to attract that sort of attention (I hope that doesn’t sound like a very warped sort of empathy). But I do agree with M and Ian. I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable with the possibility just because my daughter wasn’t conventionally pretty. I would definitely still be concerned about that risk, and try to establish some rules about rides and the company of the opposite sex.
Comment by Derek — November 22, 2009 @ 9:56 pm
Just to clarify, I wasn’t actually thinking of rape when I said that I wasn’t pretty enough for them to have other motives. I was thinking of this statement: “I believe that boys that drive home girls (especially boys that don’t live close by) have an agenda.” I was saying that in my case, there appeared to be no agenda whatsoever except being nice and being 16 and thinking that driving was the coolest thing ever. And I admit that it was a flippant remark.
Comment by Beth — November 22, 2009 @ 10:03 pm
It wasn’t that I wasn’t attractive, it was that I wasn’t pretty. I was a major tomboy, and I’d been playing sports with these guys forever. I just wasn’t at the top of their list of girls to date. And I was in no way suggesting that thinking that your daughter isn’t attractive means that you should allow her into dangerous situations. It was more a specific proof in my case that boys could drive girls far out of their way just to be nice.
Comment by Beth — November 22, 2009 @ 10:06 pm
First you should know that Numi couldn’t wait to get us out of the house! Her reaction to me being in the car with boys was something like, “Good. I’ll be able to go to your wedding.”
She does bring up the point of what you do if you don’t like the guy…. awkward. I think 16 is probably a good time for you to give her some more room and trust her judgment about the guy. And it sounds like the conversation about why they are offering a ride is a big step in the right direction.
PS - Nice to know my mom couldn’t CALL to tell me she got to her destination, but she could find the time to chime in here. Glad your drive was safe!
Comment by Eris — November 22, 2009 @ 10:08 pm
What is the real reason you don’t want her getting rides home? Is it because teenage drivers generally aren’t the best, or because you’re worried about sexual assault? People seem to be addressing both of these, and I’m not really clear on what YOUR reason is.
If it is because your worried about sexual assault, let me just say this: the only time I’ve been assaulted in a form of transportation was on a public bus (some guy in front of me reached behind him and felt up my leg; maybe that’s not actually assault, but anyway…). So I tend to fall into the camp that it may be a little extreme to forbid any rides with any boys, and that having your daughter regularly take public transportation is probably just as dangerous.
Comment by J-town — November 22, 2009 @ 10:21 pm
I, also, was 16 not too long ago (5 yrs.) but I got plenty of rides home from boys as a teenager, and I never got into a sticky situation. Does your daughter have a good set of friends? Does she hang out with sleeze-balls? Because if not, she’ll probably be fine.
Furthermore, the boy may indeed have “ulterior motives”. He may indeed have a crush on your daughter. But she’s at the age where it’s okay for boys to have crushes on girls, and giving her a ride home is perfectly acceptable way to express that, in my opinion.
Finally, I think you may be underestimating your daughter. If you’ve raised her right, she should be able to deal with any inappropriate advances, unless she is excessively shy or passive. Of course, that wouldn’t do much good if someone tried to rape her, but I really think that most teenager girls are moderately good judges of character. Do you really think your daughter doesn’t know better than to get a ride with a sleezy guy? That she can’t tell the difference between a quality guy and a potential rapist? I could tell the difference when I was a teenager.
Comment by sarah-lucy — November 22, 2009 @ 10:21 pm
j town, i guess it’s a little of both.
she’s still a kid. just because she’s got boobs and looks like she’s a student at the U doens’t change that fact.
she’s also MY kid. the only one i got and I love her and want the best for her.
I’m not underestimating her. I tend to side on the ‘more space/freedom vs less space/freedom because I want her to be independent.
but driving in cars with other dumb kids…i’m just not comfortable.yet. i’m getting there and that’s the point of this post. but i don’t always have to have a reason for my uncomfortable feelings do i?
like i said earlier, i tend to choke up on the lead until i’m sure the danger has passed. this post lead to a really good discussion with her tonight and i am feeling more comfortable about all of this.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
I have boys, and they’re still young, but I’m thinking about what I will do when they’re teens. I think we do have the law about teens driving with other teens.
I have a neighbor (an adult) who won’t drive in a car alone with a member of the opposite sex. Sometimes I think that’s kind of silly, but maybe in the case of teens, it’s better to have more than two? (although do accident rates go up the more teens in the car?)
I think talking with petunia about why you’re concerned and seeing what the two (or three) of you can come up with as a solution would be best. From what you’ve said about her she sounds like a fairly reasonable teen.
Comment by Alliegator — November 22, 2009 @ 10:42 pm
it may be acceptable for a boy to show his affections by offering a ride, but it isn’t ok for a girl to accept the ride or gift or whatever without being interested likewise.
it’s rude and discourteous and sleezy, imo, to lead a boy on. and girls know when they are leading boys on to get some something for nothing.
even at 16,girls know their sexual power.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 10:42 pm
Seriously, M, boys and girls are different… boys have a pen!s, girls don’t. Boys are much more $exually motivated than girls are(especially at 16) and you have every right to be a tad more protective with your girl. Not to mention the physical strength is different between the two sexes. My point, you have to treat them differently, and frankly anyone who doesn’t… well… I won’t be rude!
I totally agree with most, listen to your spidey senses, the spirit, mama instinct, be calm collected and keep talking to your daughter like always. She’ll get it… from what I understand about her she isn’t stupid, but she is 16 and sometimes it takes just a bit of discussion for the light bulb to turn on. She will make decisions that you don’t approve of and some of them will be so utterly brainless you will wonder if you taught her anything… but, just remember she’s 16, but don’t let that be an excuse to stop parenting (which I know it won’t be because i know you).
BTW, I think you totally rock as a mom!
Comment by Sunshine — November 22, 2009 @ 10:55 pm
I think you are being a bit unreasonable because I had plenty of guy friends who did nice things for me, some had crushes some didn’t but they were all nice guys.
Just based on what I’ve seen with other people. Women who got in trouble or were reckless as teens, especially those who got pregnant as teens, tend to see themselves at that age and not really see their daughters. Most of their daughters were nothing like them in the beginning and showed they were trustworthy and not reckless. Most of the mom’s became more restrictive as they got older especially about boys. About half created what they were afraid of. By the end of high school those girls were sleeping around, drinking, not doing well in school. One explained it as “why not? My mom treated me like I was a slutty screwup when I was a good kid, why not do it since I’m going to be punished anyways?” (I’m not saying you are doing any of this but I think you need to look inside to see if you’re projecting some.)
I think you’d be better off talking to your daughter about trusting HER intuition and safe situations. Not getting into a car if she’s uncomfortable (guy or girl), what are good qualifies in boys , all those things that will help her make her own decisions. That would serve her better then a blanket ban on boys driving.
Comment by anonamouse — November 22, 2009 @ 10:57 pm
Come to think of it, I don’t think I will let my boys ride in cars with a lot of other boys just because of the reckless driving factor.
Comment by Stephanie — November 22, 2009 @ 10:59 pm
anonymouse, have you read any of my comments? have you read any of my posts on my daughter?
i feel very confident in saying that I see my daughter as her own person and I trust her to a point.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 11:00 pm
steph, those stats from the CDC are scary. Imagine if 11 kids died each day from using the playhouse at the local mcdonalds.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 11:09 pm
From the other side of the coin, I also have a 16 year old grandson. It scares the hell out of me that he is driving and that my granddaughter is often his passenger. I also realize that this is a necessary part of growing up and and that my hopefully irrational fears are a result of my loving them so much.
An aside, I know that boys have a statistically higher rate of accidents. I won’t name names, but in our family it was a girl who continually wrecked the cars, got all of our insurance cancelled and left me with panic attacks for years whenever I heard sirens.
Watching your children mature into young adults is very difficult. Seeing them mature into a responsible
Comment by numi — November 22, 2009 @ 11:10 pm
While I’ll respect the mother’s intuition to veto any general rule, etc, my first instinct is this should not be a gender thing but rather a “I need to know the people driving you around.”
Comment by Nicole — November 22, 2009 @ 11:12 pm
oops, don’t know how that block quote got in there. sorry.
Comment by numi — November 22, 2009 @ 11:12 pm
Having had one daughter sexually assaulted by a older boy giving her a ride home from a friend’s house, I’d vote for caution. But I think the right approach is to find more about the specific boy and circumstances and judge it on a case-by-case basis rather than issuing a blanket rule.
Comment by name_withheld — November 22, 2009 @ 11:14 pm
#73… um maybe you should go back and read some of mfranti’s comments… she ain’t a dummy… that’s for sure!
Stephanie… good point… I have two boys and another one on the way… I was just thinking about them and what I would do…. umm.. ya, I like that!
Comment by Sunshine — November 22, 2009 @ 11:17 pm
Bit of a threadjack, but what’s really scary is that a lot of parents who recognize that their own children are driving risks want to put them into a big, strong, safe vehicle so that in the case of an accident, they’ll likely come out in better shape. The flip side is that those big, strong, safe vehicles are more likely to do serious damage to another car’s driver. One of the men in my old ward was hit by speeding teens and paralyzed for life.
Comment by Stephanie — November 22, 2009 @ 11:18 pm
[edited for snark]
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 11:20 pm
Re #77: Thank you for preserving my anonymity. I feel very safe here.
Comment by Eris — November 22, 2009 @ 11:34 pm
That’s right Eris, it’s just me, you, numi and a hundred thousand of our closest friends.
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 11:36 pm
I think that the most important thing that young teenage girls can learn is a sense of self. That is really where a lot of problems come from, girls who don’t know who they are are then let guys do things to them that they later regret. If you feel confident in your daughters abilities to make good choices than letting her do things like ride home with boy’s is not a big deal. If you are concerned then it is your job as her parent to help her make adjustments, and to find the right balance between letting her be independent and having appropriate boundaries.
Comment by Chris — November 22, 2009 @ 11:49 pm
Chris, are you saying that you had no problem letting your daughters drive with boys/kids?
was it because you were absolutely confident that they were confident in themselves?
Comment by mfranti — November 22, 2009 @ 11:53 pm
In hindsight I now wonder if my parents allowed me to drive to school every day so that they wouldn’t have to chauffeur me from my excessive after-school-activities (there was no bus service for such things), or if it was because providing me with my own transportation meant that there was never opportunity to be given rides by other teenagers (male or female). I was under a strict rule of “give no one rides” with the occasional exception of an occasional in-advance permission.
Comment by jtg — November 23, 2009 @ 12:02 am
I grew up in a very rural area, and the “rules” are so different. As a teenage girl, I frequently picked up guys and girls on my route to and from school to give them a ride (not necessarily kids I knew either). My parents tried to teach me to be really perceptive, independent, and always made sure that I knew how to create my own options.
This is such a good teachable moment. You mention she thinks he’s just being nice. Fine. But she really needs to learn to tune into her intuition and perception. I think a teenage girl needs to learn that her first answer should always be “no”, with the few, exceptional “yes”.
You send signals to people when you make choices. If you choose to get a ride with a guy when you have viable public transportation/rides with family or friends, it may be perceived as a certain kind of signal (or not). These are great lessons to learn before you’re off in the world and on your own. Good luck!
Comment by hebmily — November 23, 2009 @ 1:38 am
We’re not planning on letting our kids drive until they are 18, and of course by then it is their choice. The state we live in is trying to change the driving age to 18, so it may not even be something that we have to bring up with the kids. Our plan is to sit them down and give them the reasons why we feel this way.
After years of driving them around, why not just keep doing it? We are also planning to move as close as we can to the high school and church building so that they can bike or walk to their activities. This gives them a little bit of freedom.
I would just be straight forward with her, she’s sixteen, she knows (or should know) was sexual assault is, talk to her about your concerns and about the driving stats for teenagers getting into car wrecks. I think that she’ll understand. Ask her if you can agree on a plan of action for different situations, and make sure that she always has a way to contact you in case she is somewhere and needs to leave.
Comment by anon — November 23, 2009 @ 7:58 am
Most of the just let her go comments come from people who obviously haven’t read that you do let her have quite a bit of freedom-it’s not being alone in a car with a guy that’s the problem. it’s being alone in the car with a guy you don’t know and don’t trust.
It’s not like she doesn’t have friends she can go with freely.
there really isn’t a way around the boys and girls are different when we talk about some things.
Comment by britt — November 23, 2009 @ 8:14 am
I agree #90, a conversation about sexual assault is definitely a must. Probably multiple conversations.
Riding with a group can have it’s dangers as well. I know a girl that was sexually assaulted while riding home from a stake dance by the son of a Bishop.
Comment by Ian Cook — November 23, 2009 @ 8:42 am
Meeting the boys creates an atmosphere of accountability. If the young man intends something less than honorable, you know his name and face…same goes for a young lady she may hang around. It won’t stop everything but, it’s a stumbling block and handy in the strategic arsenal of parenting. Even better if you meet the parents too.
As for what to say when you aren’t comfortable…say it anyway. My dd’s boyfriend is a semi-pro motorbike racer. She rides on the street motorcycle with him sometimes and she knew she’d better ask me first…as I had a friend in high school who is spending the rest of his otherwise healthy life in a nursing home as a quadraplegic due to a motorcycle accident, and her father’s friend was killed on one. (I’ve ridden on motorcycles most of my life and I won’t ban it, but I have to meet the driver and feel comfortable in his skills and judgment- I will even take a ride with him, if need be).
Dd’s boyfriend came over and I told him I was sure he had plenty of skill, since I’ve seen what he’s done on the track…but if he ever drove that motorcycle in a way that would make my grandmother uncomfortable, ever forgot that he was responsible for my beloved daughter’s safety every moment she was on the back of that bike or in his car, I would personally neuter him with my bare hands. (Yes, I said that.) She is 19 years old, makes very good decisions and has been brought up with a lot of independence and street knowledge- all of that is important, but when you factor in somebody else’s kid, then, I don’t hesitate to express myself in no uncertain terms. (See neutering comment.)
Yes, they can disobey and do things anyway. But, if there are procedures set in place that aren’t unreasonable (meeting the drivers- male or female), knowing how many kids are in the car, being the uncool parent and warning the drivers personally about taking care of their passenger’s safety- whatever it is you deem necessary, then just do it and then, you have to let it go.
Comment by Kimberly — November 23, 2009 @ 9:19 am
I also agree with earlier suggestions about the cell phone and telling the teens that if they are even slightly uncomfortable about getting in the car with anyone, call us immediately, any time day or night, and we will promptly go get them. I’ve had to get each of my girls twice- they trusted their own radar.
Comment by Kimberly — November 23, 2009 @ 9:23 am
All four times I had to go collect them, they were with girls.
Comment by Kimberly — November 23, 2009 @ 9:24 am
You are definitely not being unreasonable. You are being sexist.
Comment by Davis — November 23, 2009 @ 10:39 am
My daughter is now 22. Since she didn’t even turn 16 until she was a senior in highschool, most of her friends has drivers licenses before she did. As such, she was reliant on them for rides to places, especially school. Her to-school carpool was a gal (who was always running late). She had a pretty wide circle of friends that included both girls and boys. I am sure there were times when she got rides from boys though I have no specific recollection of it. But my case is different. I am not from Utah so my daughter was raised with a healthy skepticism and ability to read others. Naiveté is not in her personality set. By the time she was 16, she had traveled alone internationally and to New York City.
I think it really comes down to the child. While my preference would be for the child to have the skill set to make the determinations on her own, if she can’t, then parental intervention would be warranted.
p.s. My then husband was always convinced that all teenage boys were dogs (remembering his teenage years). One time there was a co-ed group of friends at our house. They were all in the basement in the theater room. It was quiet down there so spousal was convinced there was something nefarious going on. I told him if he felt that way he should go check. He came back upstairs quite redfaced — they were quiet because they were having scripture study.
Comment by StillConfused — November 23, 2009 @ 11:33 am
Good to know. Glad my kids aren’t from UT either. Poor Utahns.
Comment by Stephanie — November 23, 2009 @ 12:19 pm
Seriously, StillConfused, I can sum up most of your parenting comments like this: “My kids are perfect. I am/was the perfect parent”. Really? (Of course, I can sum up most of my parenting comments like this: “My kids are horrid and I suck as a parent” so maybe it’s just all relative)
Comment by Stephanie — November 23, 2009 @ 12:22 pm
edited 3 times for snark….
sigh
high five stephanie
Comment by britt — November 23, 2009 @ 12:37 pm
Davis, could you explain your comment a little more?
but yeah, i suppose i am being little sexist. sometimes, i’m a little racist and sometimes, i’m a little disgusted by some types of people but most days i try to do my best and keep my nasty thoughts in check.
so, tell me davis, how did you handle your teen daughters?
Comment by mfranti — November 23, 2009 @ 1:08 pm
re: 93 “if he ever drove that motorcycle in a way that would make my grandmother uncomfortable, ever forgot that he was responsible for my beloved daughter’s safety every moment she was on the back of that bike or in his car, I would personally neuter him with my bare hands. (Yes, I said that.)”
K. Go girl!
If boys aren’t brave enough to stand up to the “meet the parent” challenge, they are, by definition, unworthy of our daughters. And, the daughter’s willingness to accede to the requirement for this test of merit, (not like it, but accept it) is actually an excellent measure of
their maturity. For bringing a boy home to meet, is a reflection of respect for the wisdom of adults she knows love her.
And, as others have said, you don’t have to try to make a rule that generalizes across a range of boys and risks, you’re making a rule about a specific situation - e.g., “no meet, no ride”. “Meet and Mama don’t like, no ride”.
Comment by Betty Jo — November 23, 2009 @ 1:12 pm
Still confused:
Maybe you and I should create a “Perfect Parent” blog and people like mfranti, and Stephanie and britt won’t bother us….cuz, obviously they suck as parents… poor souls! Poor souls that are leading their children straight down to hell!!!
Sigh…
So unfortunate!
Comment by Sunshine — November 23, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
when i talked to her last night i said i would like to meet him and she cheerfully agreed.
i think i made it clear that this boy (or the next) might be swell but if she doesn’t keep her wits about her and just starts accepting ride from anyone, she might find herself compromising her standards– or ignoring the red flags– in order to get home or to ‘the place’ and that’s one of my biggest concerns.
she’s a good kid. but even good kids can make bad (uninformed or naive) decisions if not properly guided by good parents.
Comment by mfranti — November 23, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
This is where I get just a little frustrated. There are differences between boys and girls. There are. In sexual assault that is clear. Are we supposed to stick our heads in the sand and ignore every mommy spidey sense we’ve got- and instead send our daughters into harms way while shouting we are all equal?
Telling your daughter she can’t be a scientist because she’s a girl=sexist, telling your daughter she can’t ride in a car with a strange boy that has your mommy sense acting up=smart
This isn’t some general statement…she’s not saying petunia will never be in a car with a boy (jewis cleansing spit) because they are evil and wrong and she’ll be too busy burning her bras if we let her come out of her bubble. She’s saying this specific boy is unknown to her and there’s something not quite right there.
Comment by britt — November 23, 2009 @ 1:17 pm
Davis, you can join our group too… we accept people of all sexes…
Comment by Sunshine — November 23, 2009 @ 1:21 pm
ding ding ding ding…
britt gets this….same with all of the moms of older daughters.
i know there’s people on this board who are determined to have their kids grow up genderless and well, good luck with that.
i think those parents might succeed when their kids are young but it’s gets really hard to pretend that your girls aren’t different from your boys when they start puberty (and i’m not just talking about the physical changes)
i think that’s why i blog about raising a teen daughter. there’s so much teen parent stuff we haven’t covered on the blogs yet that i really think needs to be addressed.
calling me sexist without a reason, not cool. btw.
Comment by mfranti — November 23, 2009 @ 1:24 pm
I’m coming late to this discussion and my point of view is probably not unique. Still, I would like to point out that the issue of driver safety is important as teen aged drivers get distracted when there is a bunch of them in a car. It is not unusual to hear about 16 year olds crashing their cars the first day they drive to school. The accidents happen when they are driving with their friends in the car, when they are laughing and having a good time, when they are listening to the radio and driving too fast and other things that take their attention away from the road.
I don’t think it is unreasonable to want to know who your minor child is with, where the child is and when the child will be back. When they reach 18 they are then adults and can do what they want. Until that time the law holds parents responsible for the safety of their children. Sixteen year olds are mature enough to understand their parents rational fears. Working together, it should be possible to come up with rules that satisfy both parties.
Comment by Claudia — November 23, 2009 @ 2:28 pm
I would be interested to see how parents with boy and girl siblings very close in age deal with this. My two are still under 9, but they are only one grade apart and 17 months different in age. I can see our kids calling us on things if we can’t have a somewhat “equal” rule.
I think a may really like thee law where teens are not allowed to drive others around except family, if that is a law in the state we live in. It gives everyone experience and less distraction.
From my experience I remember driving kids home way out of my way, because many friends did not live close. I loved to drive, so I was OK with it, but I paid my own gas when I used my parent’s cars. I almost always asked for gas money and was impressed when other kids knew to at least offer a couple bucks if they were out of my way. Looking back this made the ride less of a “gift” and more of a friend thing.
Comment by miles — November 23, 2009 @ 2:30 pm
re: sexism (or not) of skepticism about allowing girls to get rides with “strange” boys
I wonder, is it any less important to vet girls before they give rides to boys (a girl is just as likely to have a car as a boy, right?) or to want to meet the girls that our sons might be spending time with?
Comment by Derek — November 23, 2009 @ 2:44 pm
Derek, I would want to know the young person either gender and any permutation of genders. I would be looking for good influences either way-with different sorts of concerns based on the gender AND based on the child. Some of my chidlren are more naive than others, some are more likely to lead out, some more likely to follow. I’ll rely on my mommy senses and just do my best.
Comment by britt — November 23, 2009 @ 3:06 pm
No, Derek, it’s not any less important. I like to know who they hang around with, male or female.
Comment by Kimberly — November 23, 2009 @ 3:07 pm
Absolutely not. #1- you wouldn’t know where she is or who she is with. #2- “nice boys” aren’t always so nice. #3- the accident rate w/ teens. My children will NOT be allowed to ride in cars with others teens- girls or boys, DL or not. This means I will be a chauffer for quite awhile, and I accept that.
Comment by anon — November 23, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
I just can’t see making a “rule” about this for girls but not boys. If my girl is 16, she is old enough to date, which means she is old enough to decide who she chooses to be alone in a car with. Same with my boys.
I will NOT make my boys have a girl come over here so I can meet them before they go out together, so I will NOT make my girls do the same thing.
And if you realize that hanging out happens more than official dates you will realize that socialization is more likely to happen that way anyway.
I WILL probably let my children drive as much as possible so that they have their own transportation when they go places. That way they can choose when to leave, etc.
I WILL educate my 16 year old daughter about the dangers of getting into a car with a boy so she’d better think carefully about who she chooses to date, to accept rides with, to go over to their house, etc.
Mfranti is talking about her 16 year old, not a 15 or younger girl. I would expect her to have rules about no dating or hanging around boys more than 2 years older or something, or calling home to let us know she is getting a ride home with XXX instead of the bus, but I can’t understand treating her like more of a child than a boy her same age and then expecting her to have relationships with boys where she doesn’t feel like she is more of a child and he somehow has more authority.
And if it is shown in her own family that boys have rights that girls about their choices then it reinforces the idea that women can’t make their own decisions.
So, you educate the daughter to make her own decisions and understand the consequences of her own decisions….good or bad.
Comment by jks — November 23, 2009 @ 3:41 pm
I would like to hear parents of actual 16 year olds because all of this “I will” or “I won’t let my children” is all in theory until the child actually gets to that age and you realize that the child actually has their own opinion, their own circumstances, etc.
However, my point is that while I don’t know my specific rules yet….(oldest is 12) I do know that I will fight my husband on any rule he tries to make different for our girls than our boys. My first boy and girl are two years apart so they will notice the differences and my parents didn’t raise me like that and I won’t raise my kids like that either.
Comment by jks — November 23, 2009 @ 3:48 pm
See, that doesn’t make much sense. You can have as many talks with your children as you want about who is safe and who isn’t, but nothing beats a parent being involved with their child. NOTHING!! Not, to mention the guideline that the church has put out (assuming jks is LDS) about dating. In the “For Strength of Youth” pamphlet it clearly states/recommends that teenagers group date until the age of 18, which to any active and involved parent is smart.
I’m wondering jks, do you have kids? Oh, you do… but…
While the assault figures are different between the sexes, I think it irrational to not know who your kids date, hang out with, socialize with, and become friends with. You are asking for trouble to simply ‘trust’ a 16 year old.
Oh, maybe you are like Still Confused and you never made poor choices as a teenager, and you are a perfect parent. Ah, that must be it because I see no logic in letting your 16 year old do whatever they feel is safe.
Seriously, it’s like telling my toddler, you run out into the street and you will get hit by a car and die…. there I told him.. it’s his fault if he get hit by a car. Parenting doesn’t stop at 16! And, have you ever had a conversation with a 16 year old?
Comment by Sunshine — November 23, 2009 @ 6:16 pm
Sunshine, lol, do you have 16 year old kids? I said I’d love to hear from them because I can only guess what 16 year olds are like. I’m guessing that my 16 year olds are going to know so many kids and I will only meet a very small portion of them. I would love to meet them all but that is a little impractical.
I guess I am influenced in my friend’s 16 year old who does not seem to want to be controlled. Sure, it would be nice if every boy she ever liked she brought home to her parents but when she goes and hangs out with her best friend and they go to the mall or a movie I’m guessing she hangs out with boys that her parents haven’t met. Is that completely inappropriate? I think it sounds normal for a junior in high school.
I’m sure SOME kids are perfect and will listen to their parents dictate minute rules about meeting every kids they associate. Other kids won’t because it is such an impractical rule.
That was my point. Of course I want to be an involved parent. I just think it is impractical to think you can dictate who your child is friends with. I also think it is WRONG to dictate who your daughter dates but not who your son dates.
Comment by jks — November 23, 2009 @ 6:36 pm
(I didn’t mean to make it sound like the 16 year old is sneaking around, more like they happen to meet some boys and hang out, or they set up a group meet up where they all meet at a movie or a church dance, etc. with various friends showing up of both genders and maybe go out for dessert afterwards).
Comment by jks — November 23, 2009 @ 6:41 pm
Sunshine, has any girl here had a boy call up and ask her out but say that he wants to take her to the Christmas dance but he can’t unless she came over first so her parents could meet him? But your parents won’t let you go out with him until they meet him. So, how does that work? The guy just wants to go to the Christmas dance and he knows you from English class and you’ve hung out with him a few times at school when he’s been with his friend who knows your friend and you all went to Burger King after school one time and he was nice. Are his parents really going to make you go over to his house so they can meet you first?
Comment by jks — November 23, 2009 @ 6:49 pm
ACK! I meant HIS parents want to meet HER before he can ask her to the dance. Sorry, I messed up the whole confusing scenario.
Comment by jks — November 23, 2009 @ 6:50 pm
Sunshine’s question about my teen experience made me realize that when I was 16 I didn’t date and my experiences with boys were slim. So all my dating experience that I think back on is when I was 17 and 18 in my last year and a half of high school. My parents appropriately gave me more freedom to choose companions than they might have at a younger age. Who knows.
However, the essence of my comments still come back to the idea of feeling it is wrong to impose rules on daughters that you don’t expect boys to follow. I have two of each gender and will try to make fair rules for the safety of all my children and avoid infantilizing my girls.
Comment by jks — November 23, 2009 @ 7:11 pm
I never had a rule to meet my daughter’s dates. (My son is 19 and hasn’t started dating yet but I wouldn’t have that kind of a rule for him either). I usually ended up meeting them anyway because they would come to pick her up or need help with this, that or the other. One of the ones that I thought seemed like a nice boy, I found out later from my daughter had said some unkind things to her so she kicked his butt to the curb.
I did find that most of my daughter’s activities were group activities… that is much more popular now then when I was a youngun. Also, frankly my daughter was stricter with herself than I ever would have been.
I think that the important thing is to do what is right for your child in your child’s specific situation. Only you can make that determination. Some children still need lots of assistance at 16 and some don’t. I think that when the time comes and the situation is right there, you decide what is right.
As you can tell, I am a very laid back parent. Some may think that is good / bad / or whatever. It is what it is. In my case, it is what worked best. In other cases, it may not. The parent needs to make that determination and stick with it.
Comment by StillConfused — November 23, 2009 @ 7:17 pm
JKS, mfranti has the one daughter. I guess, I got confused at your comments because it seemed as though you were judging her for wanting to know who her daughter rides with, and for deciding she wants to meet the boy first. I would imagine, although I can’t really speak for her, that had she a son, she might have done something similar.
As to your other comments, they really don’t apply to mfranti’s original question of: is it okay for me to know who my daughter rides with? And, yes it is! And yes it’s okay to say I would like to meet this person before I let you gallivant across the country side with someone I don’t know, and have never met.
To her other comments, boys and girls are different, (and really I don’t wish to get into a debate about that because just by the mere fact of gender they are different). With that in mind to some degree they need to be handled differently. Rules, well the rules can be the same for both genders, but the individuality of the child needs to be taken into consideration.
Comment by Sunshine — November 23, 2009 @ 8:17 pm
It would be interesting to hear from parents of boys who think their son might be one of these ‘problem’ chauffeurs. We almost never talk about what to do if a parent thinks their son is exploiting or abusing his female peers. These conversations about female safety almost always have a huge blind spot in this area. How about a “Dear FMH: I think my son date-rapes girls” or something like that?
Comment by z — November 23, 2009 @ 9:00 pm
z,
there’s no need for the flippant tone.
do you have teenage sons? do you have teenage daughters?
Comment by mfranti — November 23, 2009 @ 9:31 pm
I have teenagers. I have to meet anyone they might like to get a ride anywhere with. I lay down the rules to their friends and they have to agree to them. These friends are also welcomed in my home and are usually upstanding kids who respect our rules. They even quote them going out the door sometimes. (We know, if we are late, call don’t speed. etc) Anyone who is questionable, my kids politely turn down. Anyone they don’t feel like riding with, they know they can always blame it on the parents to save face. That goes for any situation. So far it has worked out. Sometimes even if the kids are awesome, the answer is still no. I have a son who is a Senior who wants to go out to breakfast with friends and hit the stores on Black Friday. They want to start out at 4:30 or 5:00 AM. I told him he could go out around noon, not before.
Comment by wistfulblue — November 23, 2009 @ 10:47 pm
If my mom had imposed this rule I would have thought she was unreasonable. In fact, I thought most of the rules she enforced were unreasonable. Now after taking many classes on adolescent development, I have learned that as a teenager my brain was not fully developed and I could not critically assess danger like I can now. I am glad my mom was able to assess danger better than I could because she probably kept me out of a lot of bad situations.
Comment by shannon j — November 23, 2009 @ 11:57 pm
Have not read the entire thread but felt I should respond– I was allowed rides home from a guy four years older than me starting at age 14. My mom thought it was fine, especially since he was from my church. But he did have other motives, and my mother should have protected me. It is your prerogative as a parent to set these limits. More than that, it is your reponsibility.
Moreover, if you won’t let her drive herself at 16, then you need to commit to drive her. You have no idea how her girlfriends will drive (my best friend in high school was very intelligent & responsible but was in several accidents by age 18). You have an obligation to your child to keep her safe until you determine she is responsible and mature enough to drive on her own. “Keeping her safe” doesn’t just mean disallowing rides alone with boys.
Comment by Rose — November 24, 2009 @ 10:55 am
I vote Rose’s #128 as best comment on the thread.
Comment by Stephanie — November 24, 2009 @ 11:01 am
All I can say after reading this thread and the comments is that I’m so lucky I made it through high school relatively unscathed and that I’m not looking forward to the challenges of parenting a teenager. You’re a good mom, ms.franti
Comment by ECS — November 24, 2009 @ 11:11 am
My parents had a rule from when I was 12-15 that I couldn’t drive in a car that was driven by a teenager. My sophomore year, though, that was relaxed for certain people- my friend who was a senior and who could provide transportation for me for band activities, and a priest in our ward who would carpool people for dances. I did not get my license when I turned 16. They continued to relax the rules as I got older, until my senior year when they no longer had any restrictions on me, because I had demonstrated that I could be trusted with my own safety. They also taught me the rules of being a good passenger, so I was always given front-seat privileges by my friends, since I didn’t goof off. If my parents had maintained the general ban, or set one based on gender, I would have disobeyed them. Actually, I know I would have, unless they had been willing to drive me around everywhere and at all times. But because they relaxed the rules on me and gave me more and more freedom as time went on, I remained obedient and safe. So yes, as a teenager, I was (and am) not always fully aware of the consequences. But I understand consequences a lot better than most of my peers, because my parents taught me well. It doesn’t work for everyone- my sister is living proof of that, and I know I was cut a lot of slack because of her actions. But every kid is different, and that includes teenage drivers. It’s never fair to stereotype. Some teenage drivers are safe. Some aren’t. But I also know many adults who I will never, ever get in a car with them behind the wheel- because I know how to tell the difference between a safe driver and an unsafe one. It’s an important skill to learn.
Comment by Chiasma — November 24, 2009 @ 4:25 pm
I don’t think what I said was flippant at all, mfranti. I can’t recall any discussion on FMH of how to handle a situation like that, and I think it would be very interesting. Do you think it isn’t a worthy topic?
Comment by z — November 24, 2009 @ 7:54 pm
z, as a former football coach, I can assure you that parents of boys almost never think their sons are guilty of any kind of problem, let alone guilty of date-rape. That’s why Melanie thought you were being sarcastic. The idea that there are many parents out there who actually feel that way about their sons is either insane or a joke.
I actually did hear about one father a long time ago who thought his son was irresponsible and sexually active, but he was an a***hole. He took the step of calling the parents of the girl his son was taking to the prom and suggested they get her on birth control. Needless to say, they did not allow her to go. Prom over. Good times!
Comment by MCQ — November 25, 2009 @ 3:00 am
Coming in late, hopefully not too late though! I’m not a parent myself, but I feel like I remember being 16 and navigating all these little nuances of teenage social life fairly clearly.
I’m not big on imposing these sort of blanket rules after age 16 because, as much as I understand that you want to keep your daughter safe, there’s gotta be more room for your daughter’s own judgment to grow and count in these decisions before she goes off to college or moves out and won’t always be telling you where she is or who she’s with. If she’s planning on heading out on her own around age 18, she has 2 years to get her independent, decision-making head on straight, and a decision like who to get in a car with will be only one of many decisions she’ll be making on a regular basis. I think this is an opportunity to open up the dialogue for her to make these decisions while being able to come to you for help.
Riding in cars with teenagers of either gender is more dangerous than riding with an adult. Riding in cars with anyone untrustworthy is of course more dangerous than riding with someone trustworthy. Naturally, it makes sense for you to do all you can for your daughter to know that a safe, trustworthy driver is what to look for. I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable to ask that you know the people she’s riding around with, but it may turn out impractical in a lot of teenage social situations. One thing that may be more doable and steer a bit away from the potential for her to just ride with people anyway and be dishonest about it is that she can make the call who to ride with, but she needs to call you and let you know who’s taking her where. That way, the teen driver knows her parents are aware who’s driving and who’s responsible should something happen to her.
Also, I assume that your daughter has no interest in being hurt in a car wreck, so make sure that she feels comfortable enough taking her safety into her own hands, telling the driver to slow down, drive more carefully, etc. She could go so far as to say that if he doesn’t drive safer she’ll ask him to stop driving right there and call you for a ride instead. I can’t imagine that a teen guy driving to impress would rather face that embarrassment than slow down.
Clearly, you know your daughter better than anyone on the board, and I feel like if you think she’s assertive and has the confidence to stick up for her own safety in potentially sticky situations, I’d urge you to let her get used to doing that now, while she has her parents waiting at home and she’s still dealing with teenage boys as opposed to grown men out in the adult world. Best of luck =)
Comment by Jessica — November 25, 2009 @ 11:17 pm
I’ve been working with teenagers and their parents as a family therapist/coach for the last 5 years and this rule seems a little harsh to me, especially because it is such a normal thing. I would suggest not making blanket rules like this, but going on a case by case basis.
I suggest you inviting this boy over to your house so you can meet him–it will be good information for you. Either it will confirm your fears or ease some of the anxiety. I encourage all of the parents I work with to meet all of the kids that their teens will potentially be driving with.
I don’t think all boys have ulterior motives. What I would be more concerned over in general, is having my (hypothetical) daughter driving with other teenagers. Perhaps if you make your stance more about that, it would be better received by your teen. Perhaps she could talk with you about compromise and a plan that would make her parents feel more comfortable.
Comment by Bek — November 28, 2009 @ 11:07 pm