Tattletale
A hundred years ago I was on a high school ski trip and watched a group of boys pick up the rental skis that had just been dropped off and put them back under the bus. Then I listened to the same boys brag about taking the tips off the tables at the restaurant. I agonized, should say something, should I do something? I even remember looking at the phone when I got home and wondering if I should call the police. I didn’t.
And the next day at school the shit hit the fan. They’d caught the thieves and every person on the bus was to be suspended, because we knew and no one said anything.
(we didn’t end up getting suspended because I used my mad rhetorical skills to plead to the principal to suspend me but not the sweet girls in the back of the bus who really didn’t know anything about it) (or at least I liked to give myself credit for the change of heart)
Anyhow.
I was thinking about that incident as I was reading some of the latest research about kids and lying (great book btw). The author recommended that we teach our children that telling is okay. Because kids are likely to let ten things pass for every one they “tell” (or something, I already gave the book back to the library), also, the tattler is almost always telling the truth, and add to that all the social pressures that already exist not to tell, if there’s more pressure from mom and dad, that just makes it worse.
But, dude, I do not want to hear that. I hate tattling, it’s the bane of my existence. All those whiny children expecting me to solve their problems when I don’t know what happened or how to fix it. Just shoot me now.
We’ve been on the No Tattling train from the start. We ask our kids: Are you trying to fix a problem . . . or are you just trying to get your sister in trouble? Our specific rules for “telling” are: 1. if someone is about to get hurt 2. if property is being destroyed. They need to work most things out themselves, right? right?
But then again, a hundred years ago, I was a really good kid, the Mollyest of the Mollys. But the pressure to not tattle overcame my good judgment.
I’m really torn. I’d like to facilitate honest children to the best of my ability. But then again, is there anything more annoying than a kid who is constantly running to the grown-ups to tattle? Makes my brain hurt just thinking about it.
Nurtureshock is a great book.
Tattling? I don’t know either. I had to start bribing my kid with candy to try to ignore the kids around him at school who won’t behave. The kid can’t spend his life concentrating on other people.
I do try to help my kids identify when they should tell. So I go through Q&As with various examples and ask if they should tell. It is surprising what they get wrong. Weapon on a bus? Um, YEAH. But what does a kid know?
Comment by jks — November 30, 2009 @ 7:25 pm
I’ve trained my kids to tattle. It makes my job easier (and it’s easier to let them do things without me watching - I know they’ll keep each other in line with the threat to tell)
Comment by Stephanie — November 30, 2009 @ 7:26 pm
You don’t like tattling? I’m telling!!!
Comment by GILGAMESH — November 30, 2009 @ 7:27 pm
My kids tattle on themselves.
I was an annoying tattletale, I’m afraid. It’s an OCD thing.
Comment by Lorian — November 30, 2009 @ 7:33 pm
My girls don’t tattle enough. They take problems into their own hands by smacking each other. I keep telling them to come and tell and then the other one will get in trouble. They are super psycho at school about not tattling. Seriously, my girls are scared to tell the teachers when they get picked on. So, I guess I am no help.
Comment by LCM — November 30, 2009 @ 7:40 pm
Someone once told me they tattle because they don’t know how to handle the situation themselves.That makes sense to me. So in stead of making it a tattling issue or a lying issue, I try to think it through with them and encourage them to figure out what they could do.
I also go over when it’s good to bring a problem to me-blood, about to be injury or major destruction, an adult is involved…kind of thing.
It stinks because it seems so constant though.
Comment by britt — November 30, 2009 @ 8:28 pm
Does tattle-listening necessarily equal problem-solving like fMhLisa eludes to?
Can’t you just listen (or half-listen) and then send the tattler on their merry way? If it’s serious you intervene, if not you don’t. But then at least you get to be the judge of what indeed is important.
In retrospect I would have tattled on the middle school boys who gleeked on my sister and I all the way home from the mountain when I rode the ski bus in elementary school. Shame on you boys!
Comment by lache — November 30, 2009 @ 8:41 pm
I remember one time when I was in kindergarten, one of my friends was breaking a rule. I was an extremely good kid, and couldn’t understand why anyone WOULD break a rule. If a person broke rules, how could they be trusted, right?
Anyway, the point is that I risked my friendship in order to inform the teacher that a classroom rule was being flaunted under her very nose. I was concerned, and am obsessed with order. My reward? The teacher decided that I was tattling, and pinned a tail on my backside for the rest of the day. Talk about teaching your students to lie. That was over 20 years ago, and I still am horrified that anyone would pin a tail on a child’s backside as a form of punishment. Public humiliation is definitely not an acceptable form of punishment. Furthermore, why would anyone punish a child for telling the truth?
Comment by Andee — November 30, 2009 @ 9:10 pm
This was torture for me when I was a kid because I was the consummate rule follower/people pleaser, but tattling on other kids terrified me. I hated seeing others getting in trouble. I felt like I was in a constant moral dilemma.
It was really bad in high school because kids often wanted to copy my homework. I would simultaneously feel sorry for them but hate that they were breaking the rules and being dishonest and it gave me serious distress!!
Ahhh! I would never go back to that time - not for anything!
Comment by Lawyer Lady — November 30, 2009 @ 9:29 pm
We are also anti-tattling in our house. I expect my kids to handle the situation themselves unless it involves danger or destruction. This has led to some tough conversations about why we get angry when you didn’t technically do the bad thing…. but it also has led to some good discussions about how to handle a situation on their own.
Alas, we also have the scratching and hitting, though, so I guess no system is fool-proof. I like to think that I am causing very little permanent damage and they are probably going to end up only slightly scarred from my wishy-washy, fly by the seat of my pants parenting.
Comment by Eris — November 30, 2009 @ 9:35 pm
I’m in the James Joyce school of pedagogy: “never peach on a fellow.”
A*sfaces, of course, are fair game. That’s the tricky part; the art of distinguishing!
Comment by crazywomancreek — November 30, 2009 @ 9:44 pm
CWC, it’s especially tough when you live with the a*sface, but your point is still valid.
Comment by Eris — November 30, 2009 @ 9:58 pm
I work in a elementary school and I hate tattling!! All day long, “she hit me” “he touched me” “he pushed the chair!” It drives me nuts and I steadfastly refuse to respond to it.
However, I have teenagers who have been confronted with witnessing crimes and I have encouraged them to tell someone (they sometimes do, sometimes not). I think of the gang-rape that happened and how all those kids watched and didn’t “tattle.” And I worry that we are raising a generation of “I’m-not-getting-involved” kids.
Does that make me respond to Suzie when Bobby is pulling her braids? Not really. Does that make me bad?
Comment by Jill Moss — November 30, 2009 @ 10:30 pm
When my oldest was in kindergarten, his teacher told me he had a tattling problem, so she was encouraging him not to tattle. So, he came home and told me something another boy had said to him. I can’t remember what it was or what exactly my response was, but it had something to do with saying it was okay for my son to tell this other boy off. So, I emailed the teacher to let her know that I had okayed this response, and she said, “Oh no, I need your son to tell me when he does that. That other little boy has a problem”. Ah, the complexities for a kindergartener to figure out.
Comment by Stephanie — November 30, 2009 @ 10:37 pm
My kids are six and three and aren’t big tattlers so we haven’t discussed the issue much. If one tells me about something that happened but I didn’t see it, I actually don’t punish either of them. I just say ‘thanks for tellng me’ and send them on their merry way. In my ideal world I’ll get into teaching them problem solving skills as they grow older; right now my reaction is mostly because I’m lazy.
I guess I’m scared to make tattling a problem because of what other people here have mentioned. That gang rape in CA that went on for 2 hours (!) with everyone scared to intervene? The kids who were rowdy and harrassed me while smoking pot in the back of the bus when I was in high school? The teacher that sexually harrassed me and made rude comments about me being a Mormon? No, I never told anyone about those things. To me, there has to be a way to encourage kids to tell us about the stuff they really need help with while cutting down the whining when they’re little. Still trying to figure that one out…
Comment by FoxyJ — November 30, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
I’m not going to quote this exactly, but in Richard Peck’s book, A Long Way from Chicago, he writes that Grandma Dowdel “saved herself a lot of trouble by not being the type of person who you asked a lot of questions.”
I think of that when I think of tattling - if I was THAT sort of person, then I would have to hear the kids’ tattling. But then, I would miss a lot else, too, if I was the type of person who you didn’t ask a lot of questions. (But I do love Grandma Dowdel!)
Comment by TAG — November 30, 2009 @ 11:00 pm
Numi is concerned that my agreement/appreciation of CWC’s comment will be taken to mean that I am calling Mr. Eris an a*sface. That could not be further from the truth (most of the time).
Please know that I am saying sometimes kids feel like their siblings are being a*sfaces…. and sometimes they are right, which makes it tough to know when they should tattle to Mom and Dad and when they should not.
Hope that clears things up. Eris, out!
Comment by Eris — November 30, 2009 @ 11:09 pm
I usually answer “Should I kill him/her?” The response is inveriably “no”. “alrighty then leave me out of it”
Comment by StillConfused — November 30, 2009 @ 11:10 pm
My sister is famous for an instance when she ran into the room wailing “Mom, Kate’s telling on me!”
Comment by Lisa D — November 30, 2009 @ 11:30 pm
This can be difficult. Ethical/moral lapses do deserve attention, no matter how they are discovered. Theft of tips? Where will that end? Will they pocket a $20 here & there if they become a cashier?
But, there winds up being the ones who go out of their way to broadcast faults of others to look better than them.
TAG: I’ve also seen other who won’t ask questions, and then try to bluff their way through a lack of knowledge of whatever is at hand.
Comment by Mike H. — December 1, 2009 @ 12:03 am
Tattling is disclosing someone else’s sin because you want them to be in trouble, quite possibly to distract attention from your own sins. The problem with it is, primarily, that it’s about hurting the other person. Secondarily, it’s annoying to be tattled to.
Reporting a serious problem is not tattling. Not reporting a serious problem is a serious problem. As a mandated reporter, I face serious career-threatening consequences if I don’t report situations where I’m suspicious that a child may be in danger. It’s a very big deal.
Comment by Blain — December 1, 2009 @ 5:41 am
“No tattling” is a perfect example of one of those authority figures invent for their own convenience. So, it also happens to be one of the things that convinced me that authority figures have a tenuous grasp on that authority. I was never a rule follower for its own sake, and its because even kids can tell when someone is making things up and not being honest about the reasons for it.
I didn’t tattle (not being much of a rule follower, I didn’t care if others broke them), but I did have an older brother who was a bully. What I learned from being blown off when I tried to find someone who would help me get him to leave me alone was that guys will treat you like crap and be supported in doing it. No one stops them, and no one even tells them that disrespecting women is wrong, and it is up to a girl to stay away and defebd herself because no one else cares.
Not a good lesson. I hate the idea of punishing a little someone for trying to get help.
Comment by katie P. — December 1, 2009 @ 6:56 am
My ds cracks me up- he tells on himself. I’m glad he trusts us so much that he shares his mistakes.
When the girls were young ones, (they are close in age), we discouraged the whiny tatting stuff, but emphasized telling an adult the second anyone was going to get hurt, had already hurt someone or was going to break a law. It worked pretty well in limiting the annoying tattling, to which we usually told them to mind their own business.
#8- A tail? That’s awful. I’m assuming that’s a take on “tattle-tale”?
CWC- a*sface? I like it.
Comment by Kimberly — December 1, 2009 @ 8:15 am
Katie, interesting thought. Are we training children not to tell?
I do think children need conflict resolution skills and need to be taught how to resolve squabbles. I don’t think they learn that by osmosis or just trying things out.
Comment by britt — December 1, 2009 @ 9:16 am
One second grade teacher taught her class that the guilty dog barks. Whenever someone would complain to her about another student that was her mantra.
A middle school principal I know tells his students that it is always the one who strikes back not the instigator who gets into trouble.
A high school student who is constantly being harassed sexually (she calles it being boned) will under no circumstances tell the school and if anyone else does she will deny it.
Neighbors who witness a crime will not give information to the police because they are afraid of retaliation.
The pattern begins to look as though there are no good results if someone reports even illegal activities. A rat and a tattle tale is not welcome in any kind of society. Perhaps it would be appropriate to do what I saw one elementary school teacher did with two boys in conflict. Neither of them got in trouble. Instead they were given a quiet place where they could talk and instructed to work it out and then return and tell her what they had decided. Positive feedback when kids are trying to problem solve might make a difference in the attitudes that develop over time.
Comment by Claudia — December 1, 2009 @ 10:04 am
Couldn’t agree more with #22. Amazing how we as “feminists” want our own equality but don’t want to support that of children because we find it too “annoying.” Why should impending physical harm be the cutoff for when its ok to tattle? I was the youngest of four, and physical harm wasn’t always the issue– taunting and mocking were more common. But as a young child with three older siblings I was literally unable to stand up for myself or “resolve” the problem alone, and my parents would not step in unless someone was physically hurt (and usually bleeding). We know from psychology that very young children can’t possibly distinguish between “serious” and “trivial” because of their cognitive capacities. So instead of helping them develop self esteem by taking their concerns seriously, we get annoyed and call them even more names.
I’m not saying that the tattler’s tattling should always be gratifying (eg, we don’t always have to punish the perpetrator or even confront them). And certainly older children can and should distinguish from serious and trivial concerns on their own. But a parent (or teacher) has a responsibility to at least begin with the presupposition that children’s concerns should be taken seriously. #13 works in a school, hates tattling, and refuses to respond when “Bobby” pulls “Suzie’s” braids. Seriously? That IS physical harm, and it is also harassment, and just what Katie P refers to: teaching little girls that no one will help if a boy harasses them, and teaching little boys that its ok to do so.
Comment by Rose — December 1, 2009 @ 11:43 am
It will just make the “tattletale” a target. I wouldn’t advise it.
I would have done what you did. It’s not fair to punish everyone because of what those bad boys did, and it’s not fair to expect one of the teens to rat out the rest. I know a girl who used to take down the names of people who talked during class (yes, in high school) and hand it in to the teacher, because she liked it.
Comment by Moonbeam — December 1, 2009 @ 12:47 pm
Why isn’t it fair if the activity is illegal? Why should the standard be that they can get away with it until they are caught?
Comment by Stephanie — December 1, 2009 @ 12:57 pm
wait a minute,
isn’t lisa talking about tattling on little things like “mom, D is playing the PS3 again but he’s supposed to be picking up his legos…”
i think what lisa is saying is that she wants the kids to attempt to solve problems and work out “issues” on their own before they come whining to her to fix the problem.
it’s a lose lose situation for kids to constantly tell mom when something doesn’t go their way. the kids learn to be a snitch and not how to problem solve and cooperate in a family and mom has to be in the middle of everything (how freaking exhausting!)
now, if little miss N had politely reminded her brother several times that he was supposed to be cleaning up his legos and he ignores her, i think then it’s ok for her to say “mom, i reminded D of his responsibilities (not those words of course) but he’s just not listening to me, i need your help”
i don’t think that parents are trying to teach their kids not to tell, i think parent’s like lisa, are trying to teach children how to discern what is important from what isn’t important. they are teaching their children how to pick battles and ultimately, how to have integrity.
***
sometimes, i think some of you guys just can’t wait to tromp and pull the feminist card from anyone who posts here. it’s like you’re looking for things to disagree with instead of trying to see and understand what the OP is actually saying.
Comment by mfranti — December 1, 2009 @ 1:02 pm
but what do i know, i don’t have young kids.
Comment by mfranti — December 1, 2009 @ 1:04 pm
I am wondering if the Columbine shootings could have been avoided if someone had listened to the shooters when they complained about being bullied. When we ignore things like pulling braids or taunting or name calling we allow the bullies to win, over and over and over. Pretty soon the victims learn that nobody cares if they are hurt.
The idea of letting them work it out themselves is fine IF the children are the same size, have the same power, and same social and fighting skills. Otherwise, the smaller, younger, weaker child needs help from someone who can “even the odds” which would be an adult.
Zero tolerance of bullying needs to have some tolerance for tattling because that is the only way that bullies can be stopped.
When my children tattled, I thanked them for letting me know and if something needed to be done about it, I did it. I never punished my children for telling me the truth.
Children don’t know what is trivial and what is important. That takes an adult to know. Sure that means that adults get bothered when they would rather be left alone, but that is about the adult’s convienence and not about the well being of the children.
The harm that is caused by tattling is nothing compared to the harm that is caused by children being too afraid to tell when it is something serious.
Comment by alas — December 1, 2009 @ 1:06 pm
oy! who here believes that ignoring bullies and hair pulling (and all the things you list)?
and thats what good parents are trying to teach their children. i’m pretty sure nobody here is advocating that kids are left alone and ignored so that mom and dad can have some peace and quiet.
i think you took my comment and lisa’s op to the extreme.
Comment by mfranti — December 1, 2009 @ 1:11 pm
What I can’t stand is grown-up tattle-tales. Yes there are exceptions like whistle-blowers when they see something ethically and morally wrong in business. But I really don’t need a coworker ratting me out to the boss for some flippant comment I made in jest in the women’s bathroom. It’s like mini-tattlers never learned to take care of their own business in a mature way and they grow up to be adult tattlers.
Tattling seems to happen a lot in Mormon communities where we feel the need to keep other members’ testimonies in check. It’s annoying. My relationship with God is none of your business. I’m tired of people feeling the need to call me to repentance for being a liberal feminist. I’m also a temple recommend holder who is active and goes to church with her family and teaches her children the Gospel.
To sum up, tattlers must go!
Comment by Risa — December 1, 2009 @ 1:12 pm
I’m a teacher, so this is really difficult for me. I took a break from teaching to work at a law firm and this woman kept turning me into Human Resources because she decided that I talked too much. It kind of turned into a joke, because the people in charge were usually the ones talking to me. Offices are boring, what can I say? So adult tattling, no way. And tattling because someone looked at you weird? No way.
With kids, I think that tattling is ok if someone is in danger and it’s a shame that we are pretty much trained not to tattle at all. When I was in high school I turned in a lesbian student/teacher affair and I felt a lot of pressure from the teachers not to say anything. They kept telling me that it was a private matter, but I disagreed and so did a vast majority of the students. Through the whole thing, I felt so guilty for turning someone in, even though the woman was involved in something so despicable.
Comment by Jill — December 1, 2009 @ 8:20 pm
Anyone who is actually harming someone else should be “tattled” on. This is not actually “tattling,” IMO. Tattling is when the offense is insignificant — causes no real harm.
The teacher having an affair with a student, gay or straight, is causing real, definite harm, and should be turned in. This is no different from stealing, assault, or any other crime. There is a reason why it’s illegal, and the respective genders of the participants are irrelevant.
Comment by Lorian — December 1, 2009 @ 8:24 pm
I know I said in an earlier comment that I “train” my kids to tattle, but I observed myself this afternoon. I seem to have three main responses to tattling (the real kind - where noone is in danger):
1. You worry about YOU and let him worry about HIM.
2. He didn’t hurt you.
3. Grrrrrr (that’s me growling without even listening to what they are saying. I can tell by the tone in their whine that I just really don’t care no matter what it is. The growl is the warning to not mess with me)
All three seem to be effective in stopping the current tattle in its tracks. However, obviously not effective enough to stop it all evening.
Comment by Stephanie — December 1, 2009 @ 9:56 pm
I learned fairly early that certain kids are just prone to tattling and some are not - but regardless, there are things a parent or a teacher can do to try to hone the child’s skills so that they can recognize when it’s appropriate (and will be reinforced) and when it won’t.
Example:
“Mom - B* is putting cereal in the fish bowl!”
get’s a different response than
“Mom - B* won’t share his blocks again”
Now I want B* to share his blocks just as much as I want him to quit putting cereal in the fish bowl, but in the one instance the tattling child has no power to control the situation and in the other, she might. I would always say in the sharing scenario something along the lines of: “Please work it out kids” and if the tattling continued I would say something like “If you cannot work it out, NO ONE gets to play with the blocks, the blocks will go in time out” - that usually solves things pretty quickly.
But I do feel, from a psychological standpoint, regardless of whether it’s tattling you want to listen to or not, you need to act like you care about their feelings and you need to make it clear you are there and available - but maybe not going to get involved. I tried to be an uninvolved as possible, when possible. Over the years the kids figure out what my likely response will be and start solving their own solvable problems.
All my kids are teens now and I rarely get ‘tattled’ to. But I do feel my kids are pretty open with me and I do feel that they know that they can tell me anything. I have had several great experiences with them sharing things with me that I never would have shared with my own parents. And I am always very nonchalant, even when my initial instinct might be to freak out - I have studied waiting to respond since they were young and there’s no need to step in now unless the situation requires my assistance for a good reason.
Comment by bandanamom — December 1, 2009 @ 11:56 pm
Mfranti,
I think the extreme response you’re finding in some readers is due to the fact that Lisa, in the OP, seemed to equate reporting a crime with the tattling her small children do. I think those of us who you may think are reacting extremely are reacting to this fact and finding it really troubling. Lisa finds them to be equal, some of us find them to be a linear progression (from suppressing child “tattling” to not reporting crimes.) That may be a mistake on our part and a misunderstanding of Lisa’s intention, but she clearly set that equation up in her post.
That said, I have to agree with #22 and #26. And I am SERIOUSLy glad my youngest child attends a school where bullying and physical teasing is not allowed or ignored (hair pulling, etc.), even if it must be completely annoying and exhausting for teachers to be constantly dealing with.
I was the youngest child to a brother with rage issues and when I told on him, I was hoping to prevent a serious beating. Many times, I was ignored and told to ‘work it out’. How does a 45 pound 4th grader ‘work it out’ with a 100# 7th grader who just wants to beat me up? Was my mom sick of dealing with it? Yes. Was I? Absolutely. But she was the adult, I was a child. She had more power than I did.
Also, even when you tell kids essentially the same age and size to work it out, have you modeled how to do this for them? Kids aren’t born with negotiating skills.
Comment by lola — December 2, 2009 @ 1:08 am
I was also just thinking of a murder case that happened several years ago at a stateline casino in Nevada. A Berkeley (my alma mater, which, in addition to my heart breaking over the case, is why I paid attention to it) student lured a 6 or 7 year old into a bathroom and molested then strangled her. His best friend knew it happened ( he knew WHILE it was happening) and did nothing to stop it. The best friend wasn’t held legally responsible in any way because there is no law that states you must report a crime you have knowledge of. That case infuriated everyone. He could have prevented a child’s DEATH. I think, that while this is obviously the most EXTREME case out there, it is not an illogical leap of progression.
BTW, Berkeley students were protesting that the best friend should not be allowed as a student on campus anymore because of his obvious lack of human decency.
Also, I should reiterate, I would never have thought of this as a valid comment for this post had Lisa not given the example of reporting a crime as mere “tattling”.
Comment by lola — December 2, 2009 @ 1:16 am
Is it really necessary to swear? Just saying.
Comment by butterflylion — December 3, 2009 @ 4:16 pm