The Ghost of Relief Society Present

By: Guest - December 10, 2009

By: Sister Butterfly

I just attended this year’s Christmas Relief Society meeting. Our ward was split recently, and I the table I was sitting at was evenly divided between old ward and new ward. We started introducing ourselves, and I was last.   As we went around the table, each of the women offered nothing besides her name when it came to identifying her individually.  Instead, each said what her husband’s calling was, how old her children were, what her husband’s job was, what her children liked to do, etc., etc. By the time it got to me I was so speechless I just said, “I’m Sister Butterfly.” Something in me couldn’t bear to introduce myself as the person to whom I am married and the children to whom I mother, and yet some part of me feared there wasn’t anything else to tell.

Maybe it’s been a while since I’ve been fully engulfed in full Mormondom (quarterly Relief Society meetings have eluded me much of this year), but when did we give up our entire identities to our families? In primary on Sunday even the children introduced themselves by their name and their favorite thing to do, not by their parents and siblings.

I have no expectations that I wouldn’t want to know about the important people in the lives of my Relief Society sisters.  I belong to two other small groups of women outside of Relief Society, and it is wonderful to meet their loved ones and hear stories about them.  But getting to know these women involves the story of their whole lives, the things they love, the places they wish to travel, how they feel about local politics, and the funny things that happen to them.  Family definitely plays a part in that, but it does not define the whole with these friends, even in the introductory stage of our getting acquainted.

Yet I sat at an impeccably dressed table in an elaborately decorated LDS Cultural Hall  talking to these women who I know I must have a lot in common with because we all attend the same church, and no one could join me in any real conversation outside their children and husbands. I felt like we were all invisible to each other, that we had so lost who we were that we had nothing left to share. Truly, I would have preferred celebrity gossip, home decor how-to, or even weight loss techniques to this.  Well, upon second thought, maybe not.  But are these the only choices??

In all fairness, I am a bit sensitive to the whole meaning of motherhood right now. I savored this part of my life when the kids were little, and I spent time with them in ways that were meaningful just like I would with a friend:  taking them places we would both enjoy, introducing them to things I love, experiencing life together. But now that they are older my SAHM job is mostly to facilitate the rest of my family’s interests and work. I pack lunches for them to eat at school and work. I take them to classes and practices where I never touch a ball or dance a step. I make them food to take to parties I don’t attend. I go to lunch with other mothers to talk about what I’m buying them for Christmas.

And now, I go to Relief Society and instead of providing relief to my soul with weightier matters of spirit or to my psyche with lighter matters of hair color and good books, I am left wondering if I’m the only one seeing my own ghost.

171 Comments »

  1. Wow, this is a powerful post, Sister Butterfly. I think our mission is life is to grow and become a separate individual person from our parents and now, maybe, I believe we also have to do that from our children as they get older. We are all unique individuals with different interests, beliefs, hurts, joys, etc. outside and inside our families. My wish is that I become a whole person unto myself, with the added benefit of having a family who loves me.

    Comment by Risa — December 10, 2009 @ 2:39 pm

  2. I’m in a newly reconfigured ward too, and a couple of weeks ago we were split up in small groups in RS and told to introduce ourselves. They ended up skipping me, actually, but it was just as well because I got nothing to report, child-wise. Just as you said, everyone spoke of the children they’d had or were about to have, and I didn’t learn anything else about them. I don’t know where they live, if they work or went/go to school, if they have talents or hobbies I’d like to learn more about- nothing. So, I strike out about 99% of the time I try to talk to people, because offspring seem to be the defacto bonding topic amongst LDS women. I like the FMH blogvironment. Women of all incomes, seasons of life, and family situations are drawn together by common interests. I get perspectives from people with all kinds of backgrounds. I’m not sure how we can de-pigeonhole ourselves to get that kind of interaction in RS.

    Comment by Moniker Challenged — December 10, 2009 @ 2:40 pm

  3. I have come to be hesitant in sharing personal information, and hesitant to make friends. I’ve been burned. It’s easy to talk about my children or family…converse politely and feel out who I feel i’d be interested in sharing information with on an actual level.

    Comment by britt — December 10, 2009 @ 2:47 pm

  4. Love, love, love this post. It is so timely. I spent over an hour last night talking to my husband about this (how I feel like a shell of my former self because all the life is being sucked out of me by my family, and I don’t even have my own identity anymore, but this is how the church says it must be, so why does God love me so little that everyone in my family can have fulfilling, interest-filled lives except me because I am the one who makes it all happen?). It’s the same thing I’ve said a million times before. After my rant with DH last night, he said, “I think you’ve been spending too much time on that feminist site”. Sigh.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

  5. I think you’ve been spending too much time on that feminist site”. Sigh.

    oh, please tell me what he means by that.

    Comment by mfranti — December 10, 2009 @ 3:18 pm

  6. To be fair, when the introductions happen in Elder’s Quorum, they’re not too different, but they tend to include job/school status. I usually think of something witty to add since otherwise it’s just a couple dozen instances of “My name is ___, I work at ____/attend ___ University, I am/am not married, I have X kids named Y who are Z years old.”

    It’s a convenient way for everyone to ensure non-commitment to the conversation. The larger issue may well be the lack of “providing relief to my soul with weightier matters of spirit or to my psyche with lighter matters of hair color and good books” across all Church programs, not just in RS.

    Comment by Bro. Jones — December 10, 2009 @ 3:25 pm

  7. He’s frustrated that I’m not happy and blames it on my “feminism” because women are supposed to be happy having 16 children while their husbands are off saving the world and being Bishops and golfing, right? (that’s an exaggeration - DH doesn’t golf) I mean, didn’t God tell us that women are supposed to be mothers in the home while men provide and perform their priesthood functions? What is wrong with me that I am so unhappy with this scenario? Obviously, it must be my thyroid since I am going through hell with that. Or, it must be that those evil feminists are planting ideas in my head.

    To be fair, when we have these conversations, he offers to stay at home while I work. As soon as I find a good job, he’ll quit his. But, he only says that because he knows that’s not really what I want and that I won’t do it. All of my solutions aren’t “practical”: quit the Bishopric (no, can’t turn down a calling!), both of us work part-time (scientists with PhDs can’t do that!).

    I try to tell him that I do like to be the primary caregiver - I just don’t think that being the “primary” caregiver means the same thing as being the “only” caregiver (or the caregiver 90% of the time). I am happy to care for my children all day, but I need a BREAK! Chocolate cake tastes good, but not for every meal! It’s called being overwhelmed.

    And I try to tell him that I am talking about bigger things here than just me - I am not the only one who feels like this. There are lots of women who have done everything that “good little Mormon girls” are supposed to do and wake up finding themselves to be just a “ghost”.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 3:29 pm

  8. I struggle with introducing myself in new wards, because I feel like I come across as over-compensating for NOT having a husband or children to talk about. So I alienate myself almost immediately. If I talk about my career and education, I’m afraid I come across as boastful. If I talk about my baking prowess, I’m afraid I come across as direction-less. These fears have pretty much been substantiated by my current ward, but that’s another story. If I don’t say up front that I’m single, then the first question I’m asked is, “how many children do you have? What does your husband do?” When I meet new people, my first question for them is, “How do you spend your days? What do you like to do?”

    At any rate, I very much identify with feeling like a ghost.

    I appreciate the few women who will talk to me about literature, film, music, politics, even celebrity gossip; it’s talking about those topics that help me figure out which women I’ll be able to eventually call my friends. The stories about kids and husbands are part of becoming friends, sure, but those stories don’t always equate to friend compatibility.

    Comment by Jules — December 10, 2009 @ 3:31 pm

  9. And what got our whole conversation started was this article in the Ensign, particularly this line:

    You ought to find something that you love so much that when you don’t have to think about anything, that’s what you think about.

    I asked DH, “Why do you get that, and I don’t? Why do you get to do something you love so much that you think about it all the time because you want to?” (and he does, we’ve got notes all over the house when he thinks of an idea - he really is a brilliant scientist, and I don’t want to take that away from him) “Why, because I am a woman, is it dictated that I must be a housewife? Sure, I should get as much education as I can in a field I love, but I can only use it if I don’t get married or if you die and divorce me. Otherwise I must do housework, which is not something that I love so much that I think about it even when I don’t want to. It is something that I hate so much that I think about all sorts of other things while I do it just so I don’t go insane from all the sheer madness of it all”.

    Anyways, that’s why I must spend too much time on the feminist website (according to DH). Otherwise I would be happy with my job.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 3:37 pm

  10. I think it is hard at times to really get to know people at church. We see them all the time, but rarely have the opportunity to actually talk about anything besides callings or if our kids behaved today.

    It is also hard when you are overwhelmed with everyone eles’ stuff to remember all the things that interest you and/or what you consider a hobby. Sometimes I mention one of my favorite hobbies when introducing myself, but I haven’t been able to do it for 2 years due to cost. I start to wonder is it a hobby?

    Comment by miles — December 10, 2009 @ 3:38 pm

  11. And, sorry, I’m painting DH out to be a real jerk. He’s not. He’s just very patriarchal. He’s a good man who works hard doing what he feels God told him to do.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 3:40 pm

  12. A line I still can’t forget: at a crowded women’s conference of in the Delta Center or similar venue, two beautifully dressed women of early middle age were just getting acquainted.

    “And what do you do?” asked the first.

    There was a pause.

    “My husband’s a surgeon,” said the second.

    Comment by CroneUp — December 10, 2009 @ 3:43 pm

  13. Stephanie, there are things I love to do and I do them (well I don’t spend as much time as I’d like,but I do) and whenver I talk about them in company I’m not sure of, it ends poorly. people get defensive or think I’m being stuck up or think I think they should be doing x, y, and z when frankly I’d be happy if they were happy for me.

    Normally I ask, so read any good books lately? That conversation is fairly easy for anyone, because if they don’t ahve time to read-they talk all about that, or they talk about books and there we are….I learn more about people by what they read.

    Miles it’s a hobby on sabatical….still a hobby

    Comment by britt — December 10, 2009 @ 3:44 pm

  14. I would like to echo what Bro. Jones has said. Every Elders’ Quorum introduction is just as meaningless and shallow. I often feel like everyone at church are 2 people, (1) the sunday/church calling person who is a ghost, or a shallow copy of (2) the real person who speaks their mind, is passionate about life, love, and politics.
    Unfortunately I feel like being a SAHM often falls in the (1) ghost category and can slowly kill the passionate vibrant woman underneath.

    Comment by dietcokelover — December 10, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

  15. I read in a book this last week that, historically, women who are unhappy have been labeled as mentally ill. I think that is a product of a patriarchal culture.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 3:49 pm

  16. I get it Stephanie, I know so many good men who just don’t get it. It took my dh lots and lots of years, and even now, he doesn’t get it a lot.

    I wonder if you could, if there’s any way you could call his bluff, at least temporarily. Can he take a sabbatical, a four/six week vacation, during which you pursue something you love. Financially it could be tricky (there’s no we I could ever do this, no money), but I have known quite a number of men who after a few weeks of full-time parenting, suddenly understood a whole host of things they never really got before. To the effect of “I was going to watch the kids and write a book and cure cancer, but I could barely hold on by fingernails, I got nothing done, I was exhausted, I was overwhelmed.” I love those stories.

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 10, 2009 @ 3:51 pm

  17. Unfortunately I feel like being a SAHM often falls in the (1) ghost category and can slowly kill the passionate vibrant woman underneath.

    I think the only thing worse than a vibrant passionate woman being destroyed by SAHMhood is when her husband leaves her for a new passionate vibrant younger woman. Well, of course that younger woman is passionate and vibrant! She hasn’t yet been destroyed by staying home to take care of your children!

    I apologize for making half the comments in this thread so far. I’ll stop now. :) I think it’s pretty obvious I have strong feelings on this subject. Thanks for the OP.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 3:53 pm

  18. #9 If this website is one of the things you think about to make housework tolerable, that the information her is stimulating (which it is for me), than you can let dh know how much better this makes the overwhelmed moments. It is not the problem, but a conversation that you are hoping will lead ya’ll (you and the family that relies on you so much) to a place of more peace.

    This site has really helped me feel engaged in deep discussions. Even if I don’t comment all that much. It has really helped me feel like an adult.

    Comment by miles — December 10, 2009 @ 3:54 pm

  19. Maybe this in unconventional advice stephanie…do you have a friedn you could swap babysitting with? Can you eek out four hours a week? Do whatever you want with your time-for me learning something new is best. On that day have cereal for dinner-or quesadillas or crockpot-and paper plates.

    Or go paper plates compeltely(i know that’s completely NOT environmentally friendly). See what you can change to find some time for you.

    Maybe this sounds bad, but don’t wait until your husband gets it. Don’t wait for him to figure out what you need or figure out that it is a need. You figure out by yourself how to meet your needs. Expand your vision of what your life is and do it without relying on dh changing.

    is that bad to say?

    Comment by britt — December 10, 2009 @ 3:57 pm

  20. Thanks, Lisa. I am thinking about that and mulling options. I’ve been able to fly to meetings I wanted to attend twice this year (for very short amounts of time). It was very gratifying when I went to women’s conference at BYU for a few days and DH got nothing done and bought the kids chicken nuggets because errands took too long (oh the horror! He could never understand why I do that).

    (Okay I really will stop now :) )

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 3:58 pm

  21. Just because everyone else introduced themselves along the lines of their husbands and kids, why didn’t you buck the trend? I think I would’ve loved the opportunity to go off and say something completely different. Actually, come to think of it, I do that when the missionaries come over. They always ask my husband what he does for a living and who he works for. And when my husband is done, I offer the same for me: “I work fulltime for XYZ company as a [TITLE].” It’s my little way of planting the seed when possible that not all of us have the stock life that we’ve been preached to live.

    Comment by Lulubelle — December 10, 2009 @ 3:59 pm

  22. I also try to ask people if they have read any good books recently. But then I have to make sure I’ve read something good recently, because they usually end up asking me at some point. :)

    I’ve also asked women in ward what they do, and received the “my husband is in school” response. I adore my husband, but I just can’t picture defining myself in terms of him.

    Comment by kew — December 10, 2009 @ 4:00 pm

  23. Stephanie, #17;I agree completely.

    I am just the YM president in my ward and I feel terrible about being away from my wife for that extra amount of time. I cannot imagine being in a bishopric, and quite frankly I think I would turn down the calling if asked.

    My thoughts and prayers go out to you and other SAHM who are basically single mothers as a result of church callings.

    Comment by dietcokelover — December 10, 2009 @ 4:01 pm

  24. And yet, you people keep sucking me back in!

    miles #18, EXACTLY.

    britt, you’re right. I’m starting to do a bit of that and seeing a light at the end of the tunnel. It was shocking to read my journal and see how many years I have been saying, “I am really unhappy right now”. Kind of a wake-up call that I need to do things differently so I actually enjoy my life.

    But, I still have different ideas than I used to about traditional roles divided by gender and their effects on women. It just seems that I see too many women getting screwed over.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 4:02 pm

  25. My thoughts and prayers go out to you and other SAHM who are basically single mothers as a result of church callings.

    I appreciate this sentiment and your understanding, dietcokelover, but I am nothing close to a single mother. My mother has been a single mother for nearly 20 years, and my experience doesn’t even come close. She deserves a lot more than life has given her. So do all single moms.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 4:06 pm

  26. absolutely amazing post.

    From the time I was dating, I’ve hated when people asked “so how is Fred?” I would always answer “go ask him.”

    I have come up with a more polite answer now — but sometimes I wish people would ask about books or travels or even life.

    I think sometimes I am nervous to ask though. I have the hardest time striking up conversations with young SAHM moms because our lives are different but ages similar. So I feel like we should be friends — but their lives are all about baby, not as much about books, travels, etc. I find myself feeling stupid for not knowing what to talk about and hating the awkwardness!

    Comment by Natalie — December 10, 2009 @ 4:12 pm

  27. Hey Stephanie, my husband’s the same way. Are you guys watching Mad Men yet? ;)

    I’d make it a prescription if I could.

    Comment by Reese Dixon — December 10, 2009 @ 4:12 pm

  28. What a great post. My parents are converts and I grew up outside of Utah but now live smack dab in Utah county and experience moments like this one pretty often. I work part time from home while watching my toddler. The more active he’s become the more difficult it is to do both. So I decided to put him in daycare two mornings a week but I cringe whenever I think about how my neighbors are going to judge me.

    Comment by Faith — December 10, 2009 @ 4:28 pm

  29. Bro Jones,
    While there is some across gender similarity, I think there is still a huge difference between the two situations. When men start introducing themselves by saying, “I’m Joe, I have six kids, and my wife is a pharmacist.” Then it would be equivalent, but as it is now, if a guy said that, people would look at him funny, and I think they would notice (on some level) that he hadn’t said a single thing about *himself*. Whereas when a woman introduces herself without a single mention of herself, it is expected. We are defined by (not so long ago owned by) our relationships rather than by for ourselves.

    Just look at how many book titles mention women only by their relationships: Quick search of amazon for possessive noun plus wife: The Pilot’s Wife, The Centurion’s Wife, Budda’s Wife, Witch Doctor’s Wife, The Senator’s Wife, The Killer’s Wife, The Dipolmat’s Wife, Coyote’s Wife, The Zookeeper’s Wife.

    Same search for possessive noun plus husband: Nothing.

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 10, 2009 @ 4:29 pm

  30. My father-in-law came up with this great idea to record his mother-in-law telling about her life on her 70th birthday. But her entire timeline detailed her husband’s church callings and job opportunities. When my FIL stopped her and said that he wanted to hear about HER, she basically shrugged; she couldn’t amend the story.

    Stephanie, though my DH has come a long way, he’s a pretty traditional fellow, too. I always tell him there’s nothing more insulting than an accusation of being poorly influenced by my feminist readings/friends. I like to think that rather than being easily led, I’m just really susceptible to enlightened ideas :)

    Comment by Lacy — December 10, 2009 @ 4:35 pm

  31. I love you ladies. Thanks for the reminder that I’m not the only one in this boat. DH isn’t a member (oh the horror!), we don’t have kids (stop asking me if I’m trying), and we’re moving because of my new job (you mean he’s going to have to adjust?!).

    I introduce myself, my work (in the past, my education) and watch as some of them open up and talk about their work/school/hobbies and as others squirm.

    Comment by that1girl — December 10, 2009 @ 4:37 pm

  32. I have a dissertation to write, so I’ve only skimmed the comments.

    This post resonated big time with me. My DH and I have moved around a lot over our (nearly a decade) relationship. Sometimes it’s for my pursuits, sometimes his. It is always difficult to navigate such things in church. We hope this last move the sweet spot for both of us in terms of pursuits, but to outsiders it looks like we moved for his academic job. Add to that a 2 year old and a ward were 60%+ of the men are in dental school and I felt trapped in my RS introductions at the beginning of the school year. During RS, every single move-in woman introduced themselves by name and “we are here for dental school.” Half added on “and I take care of kid x.”

    I couldn’t stomach the thought of saying “we are here for DH job” and “I take care of kid” even if that is the quickest way to sum up the majority of our day. Such a statement says almost NOTHING about me and gives the wrong impression about our family’s care giving roles. It says nothing about my second “baby” and evening job - my unfinished dissertation started at an out of state institution that I visit regularly; it says nothing of our choice in city being good for both of our interests long term; it is says nothing to signal that ours is likely a permanent rather than a 3-4 year move; in fact, it says very little about how my time or style as a care giver to our kid.

    So instead I went with a long winded introduction that apparently confused most people because I’m still getting comments that switch our family’s roles around so that I’m home all day with the kids. I try to convince myself that it is because the women in RS that day were meeting a lot of people and didn’t realize that my story was going to take a little more attention until it was too late. But, I fear, that it is just a poor commentary on how we in RS view ourselves and our roles as LDS women.

    Comment by Nicole — December 10, 2009 @ 4:38 pm

  33. I can’t help but think of my mother. My mom was very happy as a faithful Mormon SAHM, and that was definitely her identity. She was less happy later when she went to work, and I remember her anguish when things fell through the cracks, as was inevitable.

    It didn’t make sense to little feminist me at all until after she died and I became an adult. All the things that were inexplicable becamse clear after I went to the temple, joined RS, read the New Testament and BoM, and had a real calling. That WAS her identity, and it is one she enjoyed.

    Obviously it doesn’t work for all women, but it really does work for some. I think it is okay to give women space to define themselves however they wish, even if that means through their husband and children, just as I claim the privilege of defining myself however I wish and expect other to respect that.

    Comment by Katie P. — December 10, 2009 @ 4:40 pm

  34. I’m happy where I am right now. But I can think of more than several years when I couldn’t tell you what I liked to do. I had no hobbies, nothing I did just for me. I was happy-ish, but it’s taken me making time for something that I want to do, even if it’s not the most convenient thing for everyone else in the family.

    I started running. Some days, dinner would be late, because I loaded the kids up and went to the gym instead of making dinner. Some nights we had pancakes.

    I think it’s healthy for my kids to see that moms have things they do for themselves. I’m not a servant.

    At RS activities, I’m hesitant to talk too much about anything important, because if I talk about my education, it makes women who don’t have post high school education feel bad (I know because they’ve told me later), if I talk about running, it makes people feel like they should be exercising more.

    Somehow we have to get women to feel good about their own accomplishments so they don’t feel bad when theirs are not the same as everyone elses.

    Comment by Alliegator — December 10, 2009 @ 4:55 pm

  35. This is pretty much the essence of what bothers me about the patriarchy in the church. Women’s roles, according to the prescriptive guidance of the Church, are defined by their relationships to others (their husbands and children). They give some peripheral advice about developing your own gifts, but the core thrust is to be the Wife and Mother. Yes, you can say men are defined by their role as provider (and it has always bothered me that we “are” what makes money, but that’s a different subject), but that doesn’t compare. We have great freedom in our role as provider. We can choose from a wide range of fields in which to provide. But “mom” is by tradition a fairly limited field and much more limited opportunities for self exploration.

    re:4

    You’re coming over to the dark side, Stephanie…
    ;)

    Seriously, I think those are all valid frustrations. Particularly how husbands/fathers are much more frequently given a pass to have some “time off” to play or have a hobby than wives/mothers are.

    Comment by Derek — December 10, 2009 @ 5:02 pm

  36. Derek,

    And you wonder why you’ve been proposed to by so many women on fHm…

    :)

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 10, 2009 @ 5:12 pm

  37. britt, aren’t you in texas too? i know it’s a big state but you and steph should meet and plan girl dates.

    Comment by mfranti — December 10, 2009 @ 5:21 pm

  38. I think it is a safety thing for women just meeting each other. Whenever I meet someone new at church, I always ask if they like to read. If they do I invite them to book club, where I am able to really get to know them. If they don’t like to read I ask them what they do like to do and that opens a whole new topic of conversation.

    Comment by Enjoy Birth — December 10, 2009 @ 5:22 pm

  39. I am hoping britt comes to our Texas snacker in January! It is going to be January 16 in Frisco. Lawyer Lady is working on the write-up.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 5:25 pm

  40. Unfortunately I feel like being a SAHM often falls in the (1) ghost category and can slowly kill the passionate vibrant woman underneath.

    Does it have to be like this? I’ve been a SAHM for almost a year now and although I’ve really enjoyed it, after reading this post and conversations with friends, I’m starting to feel like I’m doomed to this future. Can a woman be a stay at home mom and still feel like an individual with special interests and talents regardless of what her husband or children do? Is there some way I can prevent becoming a ghost? I really don’t think Heavenly Father wants me to become one and I most certainly don’t want to either.

    Comment by RoseM — December 10, 2009 @ 5:25 pm

  41. RoseM, I would love to hear answers to those questions, particularly from someone who has already made it through (kids are grown).

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 5:28 pm

  42. Great post and comments.
    I can understand why women introduce themselves by their husbands and children. I’ve stayed at home for almost 10 years now. I learned to weave and teach yoga. I sketch and write. But I don’t publish anything or have gallery shows or get paid. It seems that if you don’t get formal recognition for your work and talent from society, it doesn’t count. And if it doesn’t count, why would you bring it up?

    Maybe another issue is that we don’t want to be judged as proud. Or we don’t want to appear offensive to others who would feel belittled by our accomplishments and the perceived inherent criticism that they should be doing more.

    I certainly understand Stephanie’s complaint. Some days it feels like depression is just around the corner, that my soul is being sucked into anonymity by drudgery. Those are usually the days when I haven’t had a chance to find a creative outlet.

    Comment by reader Rachel — December 10, 2009 @ 5:31 pm

  43. I mentioned this to my wife, and she told me how the last time she met with our Bishop all he would go over was his concerns about me & my problems. Nothing about her.

    That was an eye opener to me…

    Comment by Mike H. — December 10, 2009 @ 5:41 pm

  44. Mike H 43 - When we met with our Bishop this week for tithing settlement, he thanked our family for our service to the ward and asked if there was anything he could do for our family. This is how it went:

    Me: Yes, after he is released from the Bishopric, I would like for you to call him to be a Sunday School Teacher.

    Bishop (a little taken aback): Well, we’ll see what the Lord has in mind for him at that point . . .

    (then joking): Actually, your husband said he would like to be the next Scoutmaster.

    Me (not joking): I know. That is why I am telling you now that he needs to be a Sunday School teacher.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 5:51 pm

  45. just yesterday my new visiting Teachers came by the house. I had the same feeling. Though my children are small and do take up a lot of my time and effort I kind of resented the fact that that is all they asked about. That and what my husband did for work.

    I was kind of at a loss, cause when it came my turn to ask about them, I found myself asking the same types of things… maybe it was because it was obviously an okay topic for them, or maybe it’s because they seemed to be too uncomfortable to even just LOOSENING up a little. next time I think I will lead the direction of the conversation and have it be INTERESTS, not just hobbies even (I find that after a few “I scrapbook” moments my eyes kinda of glaze over) but things we would LIKE to do if we ever found the time.

    Comment by April — December 10, 2009 @ 6:05 pm

  46. (aside - I sent in the Texas Snacker Announcement today!!!)

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 10, 2009 @ 6:06 pm

  47. Ooh Stephanie, once again you remind me of me. It is uncanny. DH is in his 3rd time as Bish-this time in a student ward. This time his calling takes easily 3x as much time for him as the family wards did. He thinks it is way harder, but most of our kids are gone and the two who live here can drive so it it not nearly as awful for me. Britt is right, don’t wait to take care of yourself until your husband gets it. Mine didn’t get it until during his 2nd stint as Bishop when I went into the hospital for 6 weeks with a pregnancy. Stephanie, spend some money on household help. Your mental health is not a luxury, nor is your personhood. Lacy is right, too. You are just really really susceptible to enlightened ideas. Spend some money getting yourself some time to do what you want to do. It is OK if someone else has to sacrifice something. Why should you come last? I firmly believe that a husband and a wife should have the same standard of living. This means you get to work 40 hours. Limit your 40 hour crap job to 40 hours. Keep track. Anything beyond 40 hours he has to share half or pay someone to do his share. Put leaving for Book Club, Hobby Club, Class, etc. on your schedule, and just leave. When I first tried this DH always had some important reason he couldn’t come home on Tuesdays so I took a 4:00pm class, and I hired an expensive, but flexible babysitter (that we couldn’t afford) for Tuesdays. After class I went to Book Club. He found a way to come home from work on time so he could send her home while he stayed with the kids during my class. He quit scheduling church stuff on my night. Take a night.
    After 38 years as perhaps the country’s most sedentary asthmatic Mom I took up running and now I have run 17 marathons. I’m working on my Masters part time now. I refuse to have a quarter without a class, except in the summer. My BS finally got underway as I was paying tuition for my older kids and I began to resent how much my hard saving was benefiting them and not me. I’m guessing that if you take a class (and pay a babysitter while you do) your husband may gripe at first, but he will be happier if you become happier. My now brags about how we managed for me to go to school.Don’t ask your husband what you can do. Figure out what you want to do and just tell him. He will get over it.
    Good luck.

    Comment by Karen — December 10, 2009 @ 6:06 pm

  48. That’s so funny. I went to our RS Christmas get together last night and was caught on the waaaaaaaay too much information end of a conversation. In my new ward, there apparently are very few filters :)

    Imho, no one can make you feel like a ghost without your permission to some degree. As awkward as it usually is for me (there seems to be a fine line between telling what you do/have done and are really interested in and bragging maybe?), it’s vitally important to NOT solely define yourself by your children and husband. How lame is it to feel unable to express an interest in a sport because someone might feel badly at their lack of fitness? Why do we do this to each other?

    I love the Nelson Mandela quote about when we let our lights shine we give others permission to do the same. When you talk about what you really value, what your passions are, in a setting of women who aren’t accustomed to do so, you can make a tremendous difference.

    Comment by Lupita — December 10, 2009 @ 6:11 pm

  49. Stephanie,
    That is awesome (post #44)! I like you.
    To the OP- I have definitely seen this. I think that I have done this myself. My husband and I are in a student ward, where most everyone is single. Everyone goes to the same school and it’s somewhat of a distinct population. I graduated years ago and have a career. So, in order to find commonality with the students here, I talk more about my husband’s schooling b/c I feel like it is something they can relate to better than someone who has a defined career. But this is situational and I don’t know how I would respond if I was a SAHM.
    DRIVES ME NUTS when HT’s ask about him, and his schooling and where HE served a mission (we both did). I usually just sit there, waiting to see if they ask me. The more highly evolved 19 yr old boys do but most of them don’t. :) My DH notices it now, because he knows how much it bugs me. I have noticed that he goes out of his way to ask questions to other women and not just focus on their husband’s jobs. I imagine that we will have some of the same tensions that Stephanie outlines when I am a SAHM. It’s interesting b/c I think that my husband has very egalitarian views of gender but he is lukewarm about this site. I’m not totally sure why but I would imagine it’s similar, Stephanie, to how your husband feels about this site….(as a sidenote).

    Comment by Amanda — December 10, 2009 @ 6:13 pm

  50. #47 - Karen, you may be my new heroine

    Comment by Amanda — December 10, 2009 @ 6:21 pm

  51. I’m north of Houston… texas snackers are a definite option for me…. except i’m a kill joy and don’t do sugar.

    Comment by britt — December 10, 2009 @ 6:21 pm

  52. RoseM, I take it back. I do think it is very possible to make it through SAHMhood with interests intact and to lead a very fulfilling life. But, I also think it takes very judicious assessments of one’s life and how it will change with each addition (like kids and callings and jobs). It takes learning to say no and standing up for yourself. I think it is really easy to go from a busy and active and fulfilling life to completely overwhelmed because you got in too deep. Does that make sense? I have several friends who have a few children and work very part-time and go out with their friends and play tennis. They are very happy, and their lives seem to have a good balance. It is when your life gets so out of balance that it gets hard. And I think it is easy for that to happen in the church, where we have so many “commandments” to fulfill: have as many children as you “can” (what does that mean? have them until my body falls apart, or can I stop before that?), you must accept every calling (read that one in the Ensign just today), along with the traditional gender stuff.

    The older I get, the more I am realizing that noone else is responsible for me. If I accept a calling that is too much and stresses me out to the point that my health suffers, guess what? I’m responsible. I can’t expect the Bishop to consider all of that when he issues it. I need to learn to say no. If I have so many kids that I have an utter meltdown, guess what? I’m responsible. Noone else chose that but me (unfortunately). The scripture to not run faster than you are able has new meaning to me.

    So, be judicious, choose wisely, and you’ll be fine. Really. :)

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 6:22 pm

  53. you won’t be a kill joy for me britt. you may not do sugar, but i can do enough for both of us!

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 10, 2009 @ 6:23 pm

  54. OP: I think this very easily could have been managed by giving women a few simple questions to answer. The last time we did intros at a RS meeting, that is what we did and it worked very well…very different outcome than what you experienced.

    Can a woman be a stay at home mom and still feel like an individual with special interests and talents regardless of what her husband or children do?

    Yes! I think that is hardest when children are little and demand a lot of energy, but with some creativity and willpower (and some support from hubby) it can happen. When I was so drained w/ little ones, I took a night class now and again. At a particularly low point, at my husband’s encouragement, I spent a couple of hours every week or two working w/ a man in my ward in my career field. Over the years, I toyed with a home business idea. Over time, I started volunteering as a mentor for college students and some other things. Over the past 11 years, I have, in fact, found passions I didn’t know I had (studying the OT about the temple was one), simply by trying little things here and there.

    I think it’s a bit unfair to blame the patriarchy for the challenges of motherhood or for the fact that a lot of time we identify with our roles — I don’t see that as fully a negative anyway. But anyway, motherhood is just real and hard, and that isn’t anyone’s fault, it just is. But I think women can work (with support from their husbands) to find little outlets to keep her as an individual alive, to keep their wells from being empty. Elder Ballard talked about that, actually. I don’t believe anyone expects a woman to lose herself so much that she has nothing of her pre-mommy self alive, that she becomes an empty shell. That doesn’t take away from the fact that motherhood is draining and really a sacrifice unlike any other (imo), but I have found that heaven cares about me as a person, too, and has helped me have opportunities to not completely lose my own identity and talents.

    Comment by m&m — December 10, 2009 @ 6:27 pm

  55. britt, sugar not required for a snacker! (and I wish I didn’t eat it - one thing I am trying to cut back on)

    Thank you, Amanda.

    Karen 47, I wrote my last comment at the same time as you. I agree that I need to take charge and quit sitting around being the victim while I whine about it. ;) (RoseM, here’s the woman we were looking for)

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 6:28 pm

  56. Thanks for you answers m&m and Stephanie. And yes, Karen, you are the lady we’re looking for!

    Comment by RoseM — December 10, 2009 @ 6:39 pm

  57. Because I live in a college town (albeit Provo/Orem), a person’s student status or major usually comes up fairly easily. But I have also found conversations at church remain fairly shallow, at least in Relief Society. But part of me wonders if it’s just that everyone is so self-conscious or un-enthusiastic about really getting to know people at church. In our case I know we’ll only be here for a short amount of time so I don’t really feel any incentive to make good friends. We came into this ward enthused about making friends, but between school and family and jobs and just life… it’s fallen pretty low on my priority list. Maybe some people just don’t want to put in the effort?

    Comment by Alyssa — December 10, 2009 @ 6:40 pm

  58. Now that I’ve spilled my guts and my emotional response to the OP is over, I’m remembering more clearly my conversation with DH last night. We agreed that after our baby is weaned and I really don’t need to be the one with her all the time (I want to be), then we’ll look at different options (like a possible job change for DH). I’ve been pregnant or nursing for 10 years now. Given that as an overriding fact, it’s been good for me to be at home. But, once that stage of my life ends, more options for flexibility will open up. He said that my happiness is what is most important to him, and I believe it. He’s a good man. There’s hope to not end up a “ghost”. :)

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 6:52 pm

  59. I do make cheesecake and brownies with honey…as well as ice cream….so I’m not THAT much of a kill joy.

    Stephanie, I’m glad dh is understanding. It makes aworld of difference

    Comment by britt — December 10, 2009 @ 6:57 pm

  60. I am happy and fulfilled now, but when I was 35 I was home with 6 kids, one handicapped, while DH served his 2nd time as bishop, and traveled for his work. My life sucked. I cried a lot. Change is hard, but worth it. I started changing things about the time the oldest was a junior in high school. I was lucky because DH is an adult convert whose Mom and Dad have an egalitarian marriage. I only had my own Mormon cultural expectations to surmount, and they were much worse 15 years ago. In the Singles Ward where DH now serves we constantly try to teach the difference between the Gospel and Mormon cultural baggage. We take turns giving rebuttals to the YSA to some of the junk they hear.

    Comment by Karen — December 10, 2009 @ 6:57 pm

  61. Karen, that is so wise. That ward is lucky to have you two.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 7:03 pm

  62. I also think I’ll show #60 to DH, Karen. See? I’m not crazy. I’m normal under the circumstances!

    Comment by Stephanie — December 10, 2009 @ 7:05 pm

  63. Ah, this reminds me of a RS birthday dinner I attended in my singles ward. The EQ pres decided the guys at the tables (who were supposed to be serving but ending up eating instead) should introduce the girls. Of the 9 engaged couples there, 8 guys introduced their fiancees by saying “This is X. She’s going to marry me.” Period. That was it. They had nothing else to say about their future wives. The 9th guy talked all about his fiancee’s work & interests and didn’t even mention their engagement. He gave me a little hope.

    Comment by bh — December 10, 2009 @ 7:15 pm

  64. When someone asks me to tell a little about myself, I say what I do for a living and my charitable work and will mention my kids if other people do. But then I typically finish up with something that can help start conversations, such as “I just remodeled a 4000 square foot house by myself and have the power tools to prove it.” Rather than try to fit in, I like being different. And people remember me better that way — “Oh that is the home improvement lady.”

    Now that my kids are grown I have enjoyed finding things that I like to do. I actually love Bikram Yoga (the one with the obnoxiously hot and humid room); I love writing; all kinds of fun stuff. In this day of the internet, it seems that there could be something interesting out there for anyone, even those working full time with their families.

    Comment by StillConfused — December 10, 2009 @ 7:21 pm

  65. p.s to the OP…I have seen the opposite challenge in other contexts — when I talk to students or professionals, I have seen women be hesitant to talk about family hopes and lives, because they feel they have to fit into a ‘professional’ mode in conversation.

    I can’t help but wonder if some of it is that we just don’t always own who we are and the choices we have made, and we let what we think expectations are influence how we present ourselves. That, imo, is as much our own fault as anything. I know I have done that…esp more on the professional side. “What do you do?” always sounds like someone is expecting a professional answer. I am getting better at being confident about saying that I’m a mom, rather than sounding apologetic for it.

    Comment by m&m — December 10, 2009 @ 7:29 pm

  66. I’m imagining myself saying, “I’m a social activist and in my free time I attend protests, sign petitions, and write to companies and organizations about their unethical practices.” I wonder how well that’d go over at an RS dinner. :P

    Comment by TopHat — December 10, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

  67. You ought to find something that you love so much that when you don’t have to think about anything, that’s what you think about.

    I think this is really, really important.

    My patriarchal blessing specifically states for me to develop my talents that my “joy may increase.” I don’t think that just applies to me but it has been an immense blessing in my life to have that “It’s OK to do things that fulfill just me” card.

    Bless Patriarch Price (and Heavenly Father.) Bless them.

    Comment by sare — December 10, 2009 @ 7:50 pm

  68. In the last ward I was in we had a RS activity (maybe as part of the RS birthday?) where they asked us each to bring in an object that said something about us. We all put them on a table, then took one later. We had to guess who we thought it belonged to, then the person who it did belong to stood up and told why they brought it, then did the object they had (this way it made it a little more fun for those who’d been in the ward their whole lives as well as those of us who were new). It was great. I learned that one woman liked to garden, that another went to craft shows, that one was studying math, that one was a nurse and that another did photography. Everything was something that that woman did, liked or enjoyed.

    And on the note of carving out time for ourselves, I brought a pen to that activity, because I write. I said, “I write novels, and I hope one day to finish one and get it published.” Just because it’s something I haven’t accomplished yet doesn’t mean it’s something I shouldn’t talk about. Just like when I was going to school (or if my husband was going to school) — it’s something I’m actively working on. I totally second (third?) the idea of getting help so that you can have some time for yourself. My husband works crazy hours (55 hours is a really good week), and I just decided that I had to have some help if I was going to stay sane. So for most of the last couple years I’ve had a babysitter come two mornings a week, and that’s my time. Sometimes I use it for non-”me” things (like running errands I really don’t want to drag the kids on), but often I use it to write, or to just sleep in. It’s saved my sanity, my children’s lives, and my marriage.

    (On a side note: a TX snacker sounds great. Too bad no one else is anywhere near me in TX. Anyone interested in a NM snacker?)

    Comment by Vada — December 10, 2009 @ 8:13 pm

  69. I’ve loved reading the comments ladies. ( : I think it is easy sometimes in our society to slip into defining ourselves by dh/children, etc, and that is so sad.

    I don’t think one needs to become a ghost! Parenting is a learning curve, but as long as you can find a balance and carve out time for yourself you’ll be fine. I’ve had 4 kids in 6 years, and yet, most of the time, I’m pretty happy. I began an MA program a few years ago that I am now finishing, and having that part time outlet has been a lifesaver. And when we moved 6 months ago I began voice lessons, something I’ve always wanted to do! I savor that time alone every week doing something I love, and love that it forces me to practice something I enjoy everyday. These things keep me feeling human ( : I’m not on the other side yet, I have many years to go, but I’m truly not worried. I know my DH and I will be constantly adjusting to ensure the well being of each other and our family. Like the saying goes, “If mama isn’t happy, nobody’s happy!”

    Comment by Susie — December 10, 2009 @ 10:11 pm

  70. I agree that it’s sometimes hard to form relationships at church that aren’t superficial, especially if your ward boundaries are really big and you don’t live anywhere near your fellow ward members. My husband and I were married for several years before having a baby. We lived in a fairly transient ward, and it used to bother me that people at church assumed we had moved there for his job rather than mine. It bothered him that people assumed he had served a mission or when they started every conversation by asking about his job. He would usually respond by telling them about both of our jobs. Once when I was out of town on business, a couple invited him over for dinner (assuming the poor guy would probably be ordering pizza every night without his wife there to cook for him). When I got back, they said, “You know, your husband thinks you are truly amazing. He spent the whole night talking about all the incredible things you do and how in awe of you he is.” And I can go on and on about how proud I am of him. I feel really lucky to have found someone who is so supportive.

    Now that we have a child, I do find that it’s easier to make friends with women at church. I don’t mind talking about our kids; I could talk about my daughter all day long, and I couldn’t care less if the people at church know that I have a career. It helps that I am in Primary, and the other presidency members both have interesting careers too. Maybe talking about our children comes naturally because it connects different generations of women. It’s something that, in my ward, we all have in common (right now, we don’t have any childless women in the ward other than the missionaries, although we have lots of single moms). I guess it would bother me to have other people define me by my relationship with my family, if that was how I defined myself, or if that was my main social outlet. But I have a lot of other interests and friends outside of church. I actually think it’s kind of nice to have a group of mom friends at church, who know my husband and daughter, and who I know are interested in talking about family.

    Comment by Sofia — December 10, 2009 @ 10:42 pm

  71. On the flipside…

    I’m in my forties and made conscious decisions in my life to not get married or to have kids (I’ve never wanted to do either. I’m not LDS; that’s probably obvious). I am generally happy with my decisions and how my life has panned out but sometimes I get a ghostly feeling as well.

    I sometimes wonder: How do I define myself? I don’t want to define myself by career stuff, so then, what am I? Is my work what I am? If not a mum or a wife, to much of conventional society, I am invisible. Maybe I really am invisible? What are the ‘life achievements’ or markers for women who have taken a different path in life? Where are the Hallmark cards congratulating me for my 25 years of successful use of birth control? ;-) Am I ok with being the end of this branch of my family tree? I wonder if men who live similar lives as I do ask themselves these things? etc…

    Every life path has its pros and cons though I think the cons are likely easier to live with if the path chosen is one that feels genuinely your own.

    Comment by barmy stoat — December 10, 2009 @ 11:31 pm

  72. What’s this about a Texas snacker?? I want to come! I live in Nacogdoches (a few hours SE of Dallas, couple hours NE of Houston . . . basically out in the middle of nowhere).

    Comment by hkobeal — December 11, 2009 @ 12:18 am

  73. “Every life path has its pros and cons though I think the cons are likely easier to live with if the path chosen is one that feels genuinely your own.”
    Well put, barmy.

    Comment by Lupita — December 11, 2009 @ 1:06 am

  74. I’ve enjoyed all of your comments, especially the way everyone is trying to help each other out. I see a couple of trends I have some more thoughts about:

    1. To m&m - what is most interesting about this event I don’t see it as institutional patriarchy removing the identity from women, we’re doing it to ourselves. And I’m curious about why. I would find it strange if my child couldn’t talk about something she liked to do in Primary other than be my daughter and her brothers’ and sister’s sibling. It doesn’t mean that that relationship is not important or even worth mentioning, but it would mean there was some type of imbalance in the mix.

    I think you’re right, professionally this happens with the “what do you do”. But this question isn’t about what you do really, it’s a question to get more information about who you are. The two are not the same, but usually the answer brings about more questions. It was like at the RS Mtg everyone assumed the question was what do you do, so they gave specifics about what they did, not who they are.

    2. My OP post points out the reason I didn’t say more was based on fear. Many of the comments here talk about fear as well: we’re afraid we’ll make someone feel badly because she doesn’t work outside the home, have a good education, bake, exercise, etc. What’s fascinating to me is that this is not a fear I have ever seen in my DH. You would never hear a man not want to say that he is a pediatric neurosurgeon because he’s afraid he’ll make someone else feel badly. Interestingly enough, we are fine to resort to our kids and husband as our identifying information without thinking for a second we might make someone whose life isn’t going so well in that department feel badly.

    Maybe it’s because we don’t really feel safe that we will be accepted for who we really are, but we know that in this setting, being a wife and mother is a safe thing to be and so we stick with that. Because our gender role has been stated institutionally, for some reason we as a culture have adopted it as the only thing we should find important, so we pretend like it is when we’re in a group. Thoughts????

    3. Risa said in #1 - My wish is that I become a whole person unto myself, with the added benefit of having a family who loves me.

    You reminded me of something I recently read (sorry, can’t remember where) that one of the most important things a mother teaches is an example of a life well-lived.

    Comment by Sister Butterfly — December 11, 2009 @ 6:25 am

  75. Last Wednesday I attended our YW’s Night of Excellence with my daughter. We had a wonderful talk on “pursuing happiness” and what we should be carrying in our purses. The speaker had a HUGE “purse” from which she pulled: her college diploma, music, books, a photo of the temple, a couple movies, some examples of talents she is still developing and new things she is trying, among other things. She talked about how to fill our lives with good things, meaningful to ourselves, and to work at building important relationships with our families and friends. I surprised her afterwards because I do carry a little copy of my college diploma in my purse. I see it everyday. I have a brain.

    Best of all, our Bishop spoke to the YW. He told them that they need to work hard at becoming the best they can be and developing their talents. They NEED to attend college or a trade school. He emphasized that if they have no other professional interests, gaining some marketable skills is a minimum . He told them that beyond being an individual, there is no guarantee that they will 1) marry, 2) marry and stay married, or 3) marry a man with sufficient marketable skills to support a family. They are going to be responsible for their own happiness.

    I have had a few too many experiences of introducing myself with my name, profession and interests to be met with glazed over eyes. At some social functions I attend for a good time, I’d rather not get the you-work-outside-the-home “look.” My kids are in school during those hours, why should I let my brain atrophy when I can be learning and/or helping with the family finances?

    I often get the same glazed look when I answer queries about what I’ve recently read. Seems the Scientific American, Knowledge, and other such publications I find fascinating, like the article that described the manipulation, and the resulting mixing vortex of the bubbles in wines; or the way chronic pain functions; or the evolution of man, etc… are just not on par with “Twilight” and the “Work and the Glory” series.

    Comment by JJ — December 11, 2009 @ 11:03 am

  76. JJ- What a wonderful YW in Excellence program! I don’t know much about what the YW in my ward do, but I hope that all girls are receiving such great advice.

    Comment by kew — December 11, 2009 @ 12:45 pm

  77. Yeah,but this.When I spoke to DH re my similar experiences to the OP,he said that in a church context,he always introduces himself as the husband of Wayfarer and father of our children.In a work context,it is essential that he bangs his own drum,but at church what unites us is our relational and spiritual life.

    That hopefully has the potential to become our commonality.In the workplace I would rarely speak of my family experiences,but church is a different context where what has come to matter most to me is keeping others comfortable.It wasn’t always this way and my sisters have had to suffer some pretty self righteous crap over the years.Fortunately they have had the grace to forgive me,but it has set back our relationships by a few years.

    Oops,did I just do that again?

    Comment by wayfarer — December 11, 2009 @ 12:54 pm

  78. This post brings to mind a Harvard Business Review article about differences in communication between women and men: “The Power of Talk” by Deborah Tannen, a professor of linguistics at Georgetown University. What we’re experiencing is not unique to LDS women. Here are a few excerpts from the article:

    - “…although boys and girls find ways of creating rapport and negotiating status, girls tend to learn conversational rituals that focus on the rapport dimension of relationships whereas boys tend to learn rituals that focus on the status dimension.” (p. 140)
    - “Girls learn to downplay ways in which one is better than the others and to emphasize ways in which they are all the same. From childhood, most girls learn that sounding too sure of themselves will make them unpopular with their peers,,,” (p.140)
    - “Boys tend to play very differently… not everyone is treated as an equal. Boys with high status in their group are expected to emphasize rather than downplay their status…” (p.140)
    - “Whatever the motivation, women are less likely than men to blow their own horn. And they are more likely to believe that if they do so, they won’t be liked.” (p.141)

    https://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/tannend/pdfs/the_power_of_talk.pdf

    Anyway it’s an interesting and somewhat relevant read.

    Comment by Allison — December 11, 2009 @ 1:39 pm

  79. #78- I saw a bit of a documentary several years ago (it may have been related to this research) that showed children playing and meeting other kids under observation. When meeting each other, the little boys would all play one up- (the age-old my dog’s bigger than yours escalation). The little girls, on the other hand, all tried to prove they were all alike, even if they had to lie to fit in. E.G. , one little girl said her mom wore “the contacts”. Her little companion chimed in “my mom wears the contacts too” “The same?” “Yeah!” They embraced. Girl #2’s mom did not in fact wear contact lenses. I’d forgotten all about seeing this, but it suddenly occurs to me- these patterns of relationship building really don’t seem to change as we grow older.

    Comment by Moniker Challenged — December 11, 2009 @ 1:50 pm

  80. Stephanie,

    I echo fMhlisa (#16) britt (#19) and Karen (#47). This is good advice!! Take a class, join a book club, get a babysitter, get out! It’s so worth it. You’ll be a better you. The money’s worth it. Your kids won’t die if you’re gone. Do it!

    I am in a very similar situation. My DH is totally supportive, but it’s still a gut wrenching process trying to find the right balance. There are not a lot of good role models blazing the trails for egalitarian child rearing practices not to mention the loads and loads of logistical nightmares–if we both work part-time we won’t have health insurance, DH has a higher earning potential than I because of our chosen careers and we can’t afford our monthly student loan payment on my salary, I don’t want to work full time AND make dinner, etc. etc.

    So I hear you. You are not alone. Can I suggest a reading list? Reading up on other women and women’s issues helped me realize I was not the first woman ever to have this problem. Let me suggest two:

    1. I liked Joan Williams stuff which helped me put my situation into the big picture of how our workforce is structured and why women end up working less than they want and men end up working more than they want. Williams is a lawyer who works on work life policy change in the USA. I especially liked her Opt Out or Pushed Out article. This may be a little bookish, but I liked it.

    2. The other is Mormon Women, Portraits and Conversations by James N. Kimball & Kent Miles. Kimball and Miles interview a bunch of LDS women, all of whom have taken unique paths. This book helped me realize that there are lots of different ways to be a rockin LDS and live your life.

    Comment by lache — December 11, 2009 @ 2:09 pm

  81. Thanks for this post. I was thinking about this same topic recently.

    I don’t have experience with this myself but I have seen my mother kind of lose herself in SAHMhood and her callings. She generally enjoys both of those aspects of her life but they have started sucking out her personal life and any room for other aspects. She lets herself get taken advantage of by other people and her children in trying to fulfill those roles.

    In response to #74, I think you are right that we worry about what it is safe to be in a Church setting. I worry about telling people some of my political views, my hobby that is a bit taboo, and that I plan on having a career, even if I get married and have children. I think that you’re right that being a mother and wife is something ’safe’ we can tell others about ourselves.

    Comment by Theolina — December 11, 2009 @ 2:10 pm

  82. Let’s practice our new introductions shall we?

    I’m lache. I’m married and have two kids. I have a public policy degree and am in-between jobs. I like to listen to podcasts while I run and right now I’m reading Pink Brain, Blue Brain.

    Does this pass fMh muster?!

    Comment by lache — December 11, 2009 @ 2:16 pm

  83. hmm. . .maybe I should add something in there about loving to bake so someone will sit by me?

    Comment by lache — December 11, 2009 @ 2:19 pm

  84. http://www.slate.com/id/2234066/

    Interesting article about women and men and competition. It makes the claim that how competitive women are is indeed based on socialization, using a simple experiment on tribes with different traditional roles for women.

    My husband says that when he introduces himself and gives job, he is still giving who he is in relationship to someone else. He is an employer to X. It says nothing about him as a human being.

    Comment by tami — December 11, 2009 @ 2:25 pm

  85. #29 Point taken. For what it’s worth, I’ve introduced myself as “My wife is a lawyer” because our ward happens to be full of people who work in the same field of law, and she has a lot more in common with them than I do.

    I realize this is not a universal experience. :)

    Comment by Bro. Jones — December 11, 2009 @ 2:41 pm

  86. #84
    Tami, I think that whether telling people what you do says something about who you are as a person depends on what you do for a living and on whether your career/job is something you chose because you enjoy and are good at it. I believe that what I do for a living, says a lot about who I am as a person and what my interests are. My career doesn’t define me completely but it is a big part of who I am and how I spend my time.

    Comment by Amesthe149 — December 11, 2009 @ 3:03 pm

  87. 29, Lisa, that really is disturbing to me (the book titles…). Wow.

    78, Allison, I’m not sure why, but reading that makes me want to cry. Why have we done this to our kids? Is it even nurture or is it nature? It’s like we’re forcing our boys to become one-uppers that only see the need to get ahead, and at the same time forcing our girls to sit back, don’t brag, and don’t be different from anyone else. That is very, very sad to me.

    Stephanie, my heart goes out to you! Can’t wait for the snacker, so that we can give you some love and feminist tainted support in person :)

    Iache, I think you’re on to something. If we all commit to better introductions, certainly it will catch on! Here’s mine:

    Hi, I’m Enna. I studied science and medical research in school but recently dropped out to find out what I want to do with the rest of my life. I currently work in science education, I love historical fiction, and I’m addicted to Cherry Dr. Pepper.

    Comment by Enna — December 11, 2009 @ 3:37 pm

  88. #4, #7, etc…

    Stephanie, you are speaking my language! I loved this post! I know how you feel. I’m at a somewhat turning point in my life (turned 40 over a year ago, last child out of diapers, no more nursing, first child graduating high school this year with 7 more to follow nearly every 2 years). For the first time in years I feel this tug of freedom from my domestic duties and that’s what brought me to FMH…and I’ve only been reading it for a few days. I can’t get enough. There’s a whole world out there awaiting me.

    I have never fit into the whole stereotypical RS mold. In fact, I flat don’t attend any of the activities and haven’t been in RS for years (I’m in Primary) and I’m just fine with it that way. I detest VT (I’m ready to be flamed for statement and possible threadjacking) - I can’t stand being TOLD to look after someone and report their circumstances. I also like to choose whom I allow into my life - I’ve got enough going on without having to fit in a visit with 2 women in which I have nothing in common and rehash a “message” I’ve already read. Okay, don’t get me started.

    I must say that for some time now I’ve been in the beginnings of a crisis of faith. It began with prop 8 and continues. I can’t just ignore my feelings and questions anymore. My husband (who is a good man and wonderful father and provider) says it is a tool of Satan, questioning things in the church, but I disagree. I’m getting ready to delve into _Stages of Faith_ by Fowler and hope to get some perspective as to where I am on my journey.

    That’s enough for now.

    Comment by stephanie — December 11, 2009 @ 3:41 pm

  89. Great post. I think about this and intentionally make sure I do not get lost in my role as mother and wife. It can be difficult (one of the side effects of being a SAHM) but it is possible to avoid.

    Sis. Butterfly, next time, I hope you are prepared to introduce yourself properly and get the conversation going better.

    Stephanie, I would suggest making small changes and not feeling guilty about them and not “asking for permission” to make them. Have confidence that YOU are the SAHM and only YOU really know what the challenges are that you are facing. You may wish your husband to truly understand exactly what you are feeling and needing, but is it necessary? My friend recently needed a new car. The heater didn’t work properly, it would break down, etc. It was freezing and she had small kids and kids she had to take to school. Her husband wanted to wait, but he wasn’t actually living her life with that car. He was looking at it from a different view. She needed to have confidence in her own legitimate ability to make a decision like “It is time for a new car. We are buying one.” Instead, she was waiting for her husband to completely agree with her 100%. She was handing over her ability to make decisions and making it entirely “his call” and giving the message that she wasn’t confident in her ability to make this decision. She needed to take him (somewhat reluctantly) along to look at cars because she was the expert on the situation and therefore the most QUALIFIED to make the decision that it was time for a new car. But without that confidence in our ability to be a fully active, thinking partner, our husbands can easily start to believe that their view is the more valid one.
    So, you are the most qualified to notice that your life is out of balance. If that means you stop nursing now, or you stop doing dishes now, or he bathes the kids and the kids just are dirtier, or he eliminates one night a week of meetings, or you spend more money on babysitters, or your kids don’t take ballet and piano, etc.

    Comment by jks — December 11, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

  90. #10

    Sometimes I mention one of my favorite hobbies when introducing myself, but I haven’t been able to do it for 2 years due to cost. I start to wonder is it a hobby?

    I can’t count how many times I’ve found myself running through the list of my “hobbies” only to realize I haven’t done any of those hobbies for 5, 8 or even 10 years. I sit there in shock realizing I no longer have any hobbies. Then I run out and spend too much money on supplies and start a project so I can still have a hobby. I have inumerable projects in varying degrees of completion tucked throughout my house and still have no hobbies. My mother and DH tell me I’ll have time for hobbies when my children are grown and/or I retire. sigh.

    Comment by Twisp — December 11, 2009 @ 7:12 pm

  91. Thank you for all the supportive comments. Wow, I feel loved!

    I had another thought today. This post reminds me of when I get Christmas letters with long detailed lists of what my friends “do”. Hubby does X, X, X. Kid A does Y, Y, Y, etc. Mom cleans the house, feeds the dog, washes the dishes, plans the menus, does the shopping, takes out the trash, changes diapers, burps the baby, etc. I know it’s an attempt to show that “Yes, I am important, too!” but it irks me.

    So what is the solution when that really is your reality? We’ve only done Christmas letters for a few years of our marriage, starting when the oldest was in kindergarten. Back then (not so long - five years), I had a few interesting things I was doing. I sent one in 2005 and one in 2006. In 2007, I sent a short, curt card. Didn’t send one in 2008, but decided that I need to do one this year because a lot about my kids has changed since I last talked about them in 2006! Considering that I’m a tad bit bitter right now, the best sentence I could come up with for me was, “Stephanie is learning to adjust to the chaos (or trying to, anyways)”. But, then I remembered my two getaways to meetings I wanted to attend this year and put that.

    Anyways, Christmas cards seem to be another way the “ghost” manifests. (I’m not into mommy blogging - I bet it happens there, too)

    Comment by Stephanie — December 11, 2009 @ 7:28 pm

  92. Last year one of the sisters in our ward put together a list of 12 women she wanted to get to know better and formed a Bunco group. I am lucky enough to have been one of the women on her list. The group meets once a month and has been going for a year now. Some of the original 12 have bowed out and others have come aboard. It is amazing that I have attended church with these women for 5 years and barely knew any of them. I also felt pretty invisible in my ward. Twelve “meetings” in a private, social setting and I have come away with great friends that I never would have gotten to know well if left to just what I knew of them from church.

    Comment by Twisp — December 11, 2009 @ 7:29 pm

  93. I think you have to make a concerted effort to make boundaries and guard them even from your family (in my case *especially* from my family). My husband and kids came up with all kinds of “crisises” on Bunco nights. After three times of my breezing past on the way out the door to Bunco with the reassurance to them of, “You’re an intelligent, capable person so I’m sure you’ll manage just fine.” crisis miraculously stopped popping up on Bunco nights.

    I’m in the process of establishing boundaries around the household chores. There’s exactly this attitude you’re talking about, Stephanie, that mom/wife must sacrifice her time, rest, interests, hobbies etc. to do the housework so everybody else in the family can enjoy their time in their own pursuits. In my case I was in a serious car crash almost 2 years ago and due to my injuries can’t do things like scrub the bath tub anymore. Since my family members are unwilling to take this task on I am no longer going to take them to pizza dinner once a month. Instead I am going to take the $40 we usually spend on that and pay someone to come in and do that chore for me every week. The lady that cleans our office said she would come clean just my bathroom for $10 each time.

    If the husband or kids want to start cleaning the tub they can get pizza dinner again. Just a reminder my kids are 18, 15 and 11 so it’s not like they’re too little to help.

    Comment by Twisp — December 11, 2009 @ 7:58 pm

  94. @91 - Yes, Christmas newsletters!!!! They depress the heck out of me for exactly that reason. They always list the interests, career, school, and extracurricular achievements of husband and kids while the mom is “the glue that holds the family together” and who makes sure that everyone is fed, clothed, and transported where they need to go. No interests, just frantically keeping up with menial tasks.

    But in spite of all the overwhelming busyness she does find the time to read her scriptures.

    Comment by Mytha — December 11, 2009 @ 9:28 pm

  95. re: 91

    Maybe the Christmas card writing business can be your motivator: live your life in 2010 (and ever year after) so you have something awesome to report about yourself in your Christmas card.

    Comment by lache — December 11, 2009 @ 10:09 pm

  96. I always suspect that the woman writing the Christmas letter does indeed have hobbies and interests and plenty of accomplishments she *could* report, but chooses not to lest her LDS family and friends think her guilty of pride–a conclusion which also depresses me. It depresses me less than thinking she’s just a big bottle of Elmer’s, however.

    Comment by Janet — December 11, 2009 @ 10:15 pm

  97. Hi, I’m April. I’m currently a SAHM formerly a Florist. I have an associates degree in Floral Design Management (yes, it’s kind of a fluff degree) and would love to go back to school in mechanical engineering (which I KNOW I have an aptitude for). I want to learn how to weld. I would love to learn how to do stain glass but alas cannot find anyone to teach me in my small Idaho community. I love to build things and doing things with my hands. I was the “boss” of building my children’s backyard playhouse… it was like a giant jigsaw puzzle! Oh, and I love Jigsaw puzzles. I’m very VERY opinionated, but just want people to hear me, not to agree. I like MMORPG’s lol yes, the accursed W.O.W. My husband and I play it together. Man, I could go on and on. But I will stop now… lest people’s eye’s glaze over! :D I think I may do a blog post on just this topic to appease this new desire to share, share, and more share! hehe

    Comment by April — December 12, 2009 @ 12:48 am

  98. April, what part of Idaho are you in? I’m in Boise . ..

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 12, 2009 @ 1:05 am

  99. I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion and will print it for reference. I have found many bits of inspiration in the OP and all of your comments, thank you.

    This topic is one I struggle with a little bit because I’m well aware that I have no desire to become this ghost, and I’m well aware of how real that danger is. I do not have the personality type where I could find fulfillment as that person who lives through her family only.

    But I hesitate a little, because my mother is exactly the type of woman who you would all recognize as the prototype for the ghost. She deliberately halted her education and did not pursue any personal interests, because she somehow feels that this proves her dedication to her family and how seriously she takes her role as a mother. And somehow, she finds great satisfaction in this. She’s obviously a different person than I am. What makes it challenging is that she takes it personally when I express an interest in doing anything differently than she did. Like finishing my master’s degree, or working part time for the sake of personal fulfillment. She would never ever do that, on principle.
    Honestly, I’m not sure there’s ever a point where we stop hearing our mothers’ voices critiquing us in our heads, however much we love them. Hard to live with that voice, although you have to make and own your own choices, as someone mentioned above.

    Comment by S.L. — December 12, 2009 @ 1:13 am

  100. Idaho Falls :)

    Comment by April — December 12, 2009 @ 1:40 am

  101. Not so small…. I know! :) , still can’t find anyone to teach my stain glass thought :P

    Comment by April — December 12, 2009 @ 1:42 am

  102. Not just Christmas newsletters. Blogs, too. Geesh… some of those blogs are like giant scrapbook pages, cute curly handwriting and all. I love seriouslysoblessed because after getting angsty reading some of my friends’ purplish-pinkish ramblings on how great their life always is and how cute their house always is and how clean and cared for their kids always is (but don’t mention politics, ever!)… I go over there and laugh my head off. Kind of a shunt for my angst.

    Comment by sare — December 12, 2009 @ 2:02 pm

  103. What’s surprising is the OP’s surprise. i can’t ever remember a time when it wasn’t like this and i’ve attended 8 wards spanning 5 different states.

    Comment by StepfordWife — December 12, 2009 @ 2:44 pm

  104. I suggest a new rule: from now on all church introductions must include an explanation of your favorite hobby.

    Problem solved. Now back to living.

    Comment by WJ — December 12, 2009 @ 3:32 pm

  105. Our favorite hobby defines us now? Is that the only avenue a woman has to explore her individuality?

    Comment by StepfordWife — December 12, 2009 @ 3:48 pm

  106. StepfordWife, I’m not sure if you were responding to my previous comment or to someone else’s, but let me clarify my point (less snarkily than before). Hobbies aren’t the only thing that define women or men, but so many of the comments on this thread (and I confess, I couldn’t bear to read them all, so perhaps this theme changed) are lamentations that women won’t talk about their hobbies (with some making the head-scratching assertion that this is out of fear of offending the patriarchal system). The easy way to remedy this is to broaden the discussion by inserting your hobbies. If everyone around the table talks about their kids, when it comes your turn, talk about your hobbies. You might even find that your soul-less and identity-less peers around the table share the same hobby, and then, alas, they are no longer soul-less and identity-less, and they could even become your friends.

    In going back to Stephanie’s earlier comments about her husband’s concern over her spending too much time on this site, a thread such as this one provides a good indication as to why he might feel that way. Here we have a relatively minor problem that has somehow now become evidence of the vast male conspiracy in the church to keep women down. So she comes here, vents, feels validated in her oppression, then takes those feelings back to her home life, where she then views her daily activities through a false prism of subjugation to her husband.

    Comment by WJ — December 12, 2009 @ 4:05 pm

  107. Of course not–but telling people a hobby would offer a glimpse of the person that “I have/don’t have x amount of children and my husband works as a fill-in-the-blank” does not. Offering the hobby solves the problem of making the RS socials a wee bit less agonizing, not the problem of keeping oneself from becoming a ghost. Of course, getting a hobby, if you don’t have one, can help with that. Duh.

    Comment by Janet — December 12, 2009 @ 4:06 pm

  108. Ahhhh i gotcha now. i missed the sarcasm. i’m with you.

    i can’t tell you how many times i told other sisters how much i loved to read and they said “Oh so do i! Have you read children of the promise??”

    Uhhh no, but thanks for the suggestion. Meanwhile i just kept reading Chomsky and Heidegger “in the closet” so to speak.

    Comment by StepfordWife — December 12, 2009 @ 5:10 pm

  109. @107 Unless three quarters of the answers were scrapbooking and toll painting.

    Anyone else feel like there is an unwritten, fairly short, list of acceptable hobbies?

    Comment by StepfordWife — December 12, 2009 @ 5:14 pm

  110. Hmm. I think I have spent too much time on this site. Reading your comment, WJ, was one too many.

    You seem to think that the problem here is that women don’t talk about the hobbies they have. I seem to think the problem here is that many women in the church tend to lose their identities as they are engulfed in motherhood, and not talking about their hobbies is a symptom of the problem. I don’t think it is “relatively minor”. I think it is a big deal.

    I have mentioned patriarchy three times in my comments. Comment #11 where I said that DH is very patriarchal (meaning that he thinks the husband being the breadwinner and the wife being at home is the “right” way of doing things. He likes it that way and is happy with the arrangement. Isn’t that proof that it is “right”?)

    In comment #15, I said that historically women who have been unhappy have been labeled as mentally ill, and I see that as a product of patriarchy for the same reason I already outlined: men are happy with the arrangement - why shouldn’t women be? I’ve read so many stories of well-to-do women who were drugged up or sent to asylums. I suspect some of it was hormonal, but instead of trying to find the solution, they just declared the women crazy. Thank goodness we are advancing beyond that.

    Comment #24 where I said that I have different ideas about traditional roles than I used to because I’ve seen way too many women get screwed over. And I have. Way too many wives who dutifully took care of the kids and then were divorced because they just weren’t interesting or sexy enough or whatever. Way too many women who find themselves in poverty at the age of 50 because their husband left them for the younger, more interesting women, and they have no education and make minimum wage. It happens too often, and I think it’s a problem.

    So she comes here, vents, feels validated in her oppression, then takes those feelings back to her home life, where she then views her daily activities through a false prism of subjugation to her husband.

    You’re way off. I’m developing ideas for how I can help other women. I’m learning a lot through my experiences that I think will make me a much better RS President, friend, etc. But, I really don’t need to justify that to you. If you don’t like my comments, just don’t read them (oh wait, you already said that).

    Some of the comments relate to the small problem you “get”. Some (including mine) are about a bigger problem. If you don’t see the bigger picture, fine. But you don’t need to attempt to tear me down in the process.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 12, 2009 @ 10:57 pm

  111. Actually, WJ, your comment to me is the equivalent of “Stupid little feminist - get back in the kitchen”.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 12, 2009 @ 11:13 pm

  112. So I have another thought that relates to this idea that mothers become “ghosts” or are invisible. (WJ, feel free to just skip on down to the next comment)

    What model do we observe in our Heavenly Parents? From where we sit, we see that Heavenly Father does a lot of great work and is acknowledged and praised, but Heavenly Mother seems to be the invisible woman working from behind. Kind of like what Lisa referred to in comment 29 - The Pilot’s Wife, The Zookeeper’s Wife . . . Heavenly Father’s Wife. You know she’s there and that she’s busy and likely is the “glue” that holds it all together. But, we rarely mention or acknowledge her.

    So what does that mean? The post by Emily S that a commenter posted to today (Earthly Parents —> Heavenly Parents) says:

    Parents are the most direct approximation we have in this life to our Heavenly Mother and Father, and therefore, parents are, in large part, how we know (and how our children will know) God. How’s that for pressure?

    If we take this thought train one stop further, motherhood becomes so much more important (not that it wasn’t important before) because our earthly mothers are the only hints we get about the nature and characteristics of our Heavenly Mother. We have scriptures a’plenty about HF, but on the HM front, there is only silence, hope….and Mom.

    So, do we as women become “invisible” because we are modeling after what we perceive the role of Heavenly Mother to be? Are we patterning our lives after our Hevenly Parents lives’ (or what we think them to be?) Or, do we project the type of relationship fallen men have created onto our Heavenly Parents?

    Comment by Stephanie — December 13, 2009 @ 1:13 am

  113. “…where she then views her daily activities through a false prism of subjugation to her husband.”

    WJ sees a “false prism” — I have to say, from what I’ve been reading here, it looks a lot like a crystal-clear sheet of glass.

    [I’m a longtime lurker, now in Tokyo, non-LDS — Catholic, actually, and married to the oldest son in a traditional Japanese family, so I’m quite familiar with both patriarchal religions and cultural expectations of subjugation to husbands.]

    Comment by L. — December 13, 2009 @ 5:50 am

  114. It’s false. What is here is great, but it is not complete and should be taken as a complete picture of the church at all.

    Comment by Katie P. — December 13, 2009 @ 7:36 am

  115. Should NOT be, rather.

    Comment by Katie P. — December 13, 2009 @ 7:37 am

  116. I have been member all my life..have departed the church after having too many doctrine issues…one mainly being the discrimination of women. I detested going to RS..it was 1 hour of hell for me…weepy women testifiying about their “goodly husbands of t,e GAs telling me getting an education is great if it will help you be a better wife and mother, ..Please do not take offense at my comments..but I feel as if I have had this burden taken off of my shoulders..that I am this great person without all the garbage. I will not walk 1 step behind nor will I teach that to my daughter! Nice site…

    Comment by Melody Pink — December 13, 2009 @ 8:29 pm

  117. Rose (40)-
    I haven’t read all the comments yet, but I just had to skip ahead and say yes, yes, absolutely yes. I’m not “done” yet (my kids currently range from kindergarten to highschool), but you can absolutely avoid becoming a ghost. I guess I’m with the commenter (katie p, I think)- who said that identity can be found and enjoyed being a wife and mother. Sometimes I really relish this role, and gain a great deal of satisfaction from doing it well.

    But…. I don’t think I have ever allowed it to consume me beyond what is absolutely necessary. I read. I love to read. I often read at the expense of housework or (gasp!) playing with my kids. I also play on a soccer team (i’m a terrible athlete), play bunco once a month with friends, and have occasionally taken part time jobs when I’ve felt the urge. (I worked for Weight Watchers for a while and found that it filled all kinds of needs for me). That said, I have also quit jobs, or stayed home from my fun stuff, or (maybe reluctantly) put down a book when my family’s needs have been more important.

    Please note that I did NOT say that I drop things whenever my family has needs, because guess what? My family is ALWAYS going to have needs. So will yours. I believe that the key is allowing your needs to be every bit as important (and sometimes more) than everyone else’s. It’s just a question of balance. Best of luck.

    Comment by meggle — December 13, 2009 @ 9:08 pm

  118. Stephanie, err, umm, huh?,

    I seem to think the problem here is that many women in the church tend to lose their identities as they are engulfed in motherhood, and not talking about their hobbies is a symptom of the problem. I don’t think it is “relatively minor”. I think it is a big deal.

    I don’t necessarily disagree with this statement. I also think women (and men) can lose their identities engulfed in work, research, church, and oh, themselves. Or conversely, their identities could be tied to mother(father)hood, which for them could be complete bliss, and yet I suspect you would consider it soul-less and ghostly (or at least assume it is only their ignorance that makes them blissful).

    I have mentioned patriarchy three times in my comments. Comment #11 where I said that DH is very patriarchal (meaning that he thinks the husband being the breadwinner and the wife being at home is the “right” way of doing things. He likes it that way and is happy with the arrangement. Isn’t that proof that it is “right”?)

    No not really, but your view that this kind of relationship is “wrong” doesn’t make it wrong, now does it? (or maybe you wouldn’t apply the same standard to your own opinions(?)).

    Comment #24 where I said that I have different ideas about traditional roles than I used to because I’ve seen way too many women get screwed over. And I have. Way too many wives who dutifully took care of the kids and then were divorced because they just weren’t interesting or sexy enough or whatever.

    I think we’ve strayed far from the discussion of hobbies here, but whatever. I agree with you that this fact is deplorable. But perhaps we are throwing out the man with the bathwater. The problem here needn’t be pinned on traditional gender roles within marriage itself. The problem here is with these the men who make bad choices. If they man-up, so to speak, and do their part, this problem becomes a non-issue.

    I’m developing ideas for how I can help other women. I’m learning a lot through my experiences that I think will make me a much better RS President, friend, etc. But, I really don’t need to justify that to you…. If you don’t see the bigger picture, fine. But you don’t need to attempt to tear me down in the process.

    No you don’t have to justify yourself to me (and yet you did), and if I recall, I don’t think I ever indicated that you needed to do so. I’m not tearing you down, or even attempting to do so. I’m just hitting the points is all.

    Actually, WJ, your comment to me is the equivalent of “Stupid little feminist - get back in the kitchen”.

    E-gads, did the conversation really need to devolve to this? Please. The only one in the kitchen tonight was me (which resulted in a disapproving scowl from my youngest, unpleasant heartburn for myself, and a hearty post-dinner bowl of cereal for the Mrs.).

    Comment by WJ — December 13, 2009 @ 9:56 pm

  119. Oh and one other thing (per your #112), isn’t it at least good (progressive?) to know that our theology even contemplates this notion of a Heavenly Mother, a doctrine which is anathema, or at least foolhardy, to most other faiths?

    Maybe it depends on how one wants to look at it.

    Comment by WJ — December 13, 2009 @ 10:00 pm

  120. Katie P. — don’t worry, my entire view of the LDS faith isn’t shaped by what I read here. I have known many Mormons in real life, too, and the vast majority of them are leading productive and happy lives.

    However, on the point of wives’ subjugation to husbands, it does seem as crystal clear to me as the teachings of my own very patriarchical religion (in which our current Pope has praised the “genius of women” when writing about their special role in the home). Not that I have anything against women who believe their primary calling is to be found on the homefront — and I myself spent some time as a SAHM — but patriarchal structures, by their very nature, cut off alternatives for the women who don’t quite fit.

    WJ, Heavenly Mother = Virgin Mary? ;)

    Comment by L. — December 13, 2009 @ 11:29 pm

  121. WJ, are you new to FMH? I don’t recognize you.

    Or conversely, their identities could be tied to mother(father)hood, which for them could be complete bliss, and yet I suspect you would consider it soul-less and ghostly (or at least assume it is only their ignorance that makes them blissful).

    This is not necessary. In fact, this is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about: I say that some women are not happy and are losing their identities. You assume it means that I must hate motherhood or not understand how anyone could enjoy it. That’s along the same lines of the “Oh, you’re not happy with things exactly the way they are? You must be mentally ill” I was talking about before.

    No, I am talking about balance. When things are so far out of balance, it can make anyone unhappy - even if you are doing a job you love. I have been very happy being the primary caregiver to my children. I did consulting and served in fun callings and did other interests. Slowly over time, as I’ve added more children, I’ve cut my things out one by one. But, the big drop-off was when DH got called into the Bishopric. I’ve told my story on here a million times. As I mentioned above, I am happy to be the primary caregiver of my children. From 8-5, I care for the children and manage the house. Outside of that time, I think it should be 50/50 with DH. But his career is demanding, so it’s more like 5-6. Fine, I can deal with that. At least he stopped working on Saturdays. But, with all his church responsibilities (he’s gone four nights this week for home teaching and two for Bishopric stuff), there is no balance in my life. Oh sure, I am going to bookclub one of the nights after he is hometeaching, but it’s just not enough. Sorry, I’m just not happy getting the few leftover scraps of time.

    Some people in this thread have made good suggestions about hiring a baby-sitter or someone to clean my house to give myself a break. That’s a good short-term solution that I will likely do to survive. But, long-term, I don’t like the system. I don’t think it is fair. It is turning me into a ghost because although I WANT to do other things and have interests, I am the one stuck at home with 5 kids nearly every hour of every day, and it is nearly impossible. And I don’t really see anything changing in the future - not if we’re still so “uber-righteous” and successfully complete every church assignment given to us.

    So don’t assume I hate motherhood or hate the church. I hate the imbalance that encourages men to be out developing their talents and serving others and women to be at home doing all the work. By the time I’m done, I might be the best da*n toilet scrubber and diaper changer there ever was, but I would like to try some other things, too (and would like to give DH a turn to develop these domestic talents).

    What are your solutions for overcoming this problem?

    Comment by Stephanie — December 13, 2009 @ 11:50 pm

  122. No not really, but your view that this kind of relationship is “wrong” doesn’t make it wrong, now does it? (or maybe you wouldn’t apply the same standard to your own opinions(?)).

    I’m getting tired of your condescending tone. I didn’t say that traditional roles are “wrong”. I just said that I don’t think they are universally “right” - not applicable to every single situation so that women and men had better be happy in fulfilling traditional roles or else they are some kind of unrighteous apostate.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 13, 2009 @ 11:53 pm

  123. The problem here needn’t be pinned on traditional gender roles within marriage itself. The problem here is with these the men who make bad choices. If they man-up, so to speak, and do their part, this problem becomes a non-issue.

    I think I used to agree with this. I certainly blamed my dad leaving my mom for another woman on his lack of “man-ness”. But, having experienced some of the pressures DH and I have experienced (giving me much more empathy for both of my parents) has caused me to think that we can do more institutionally to ease some of the pressures.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 13, 2009 @ 11:57 pm

  124. The only one in the kitchen tonight was me (which resulted in a disapproving scowl from my youngest, unpleasant heartburn for myself, and a hearty post-dinner bowl of cereal for the Mrs.).

    Sounds like you need to spend more time in the kitchen. ;)

    Yes, I do think it is progressive that our church at least recognizes a Heavenly Mother. Do I think it is enough? No. Am I willing to wait around for more? Yes.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 13, 2009 @ 11:58 pm

  125. –> “The problem here needn’t be pinned on traditional gender roles within marriage itself. The problem here is with these the men who make bad choices. If they man-up, so to speak, and do their part, this problem becomes a non-issue.”

    Actually….my grandmother taught me never to totally depend on a man to support me and my kids, because even if I made GOOD choices, and had a perfect marriage, he could….die. As her husband suddenly did.

    I’m all for mothers (and fathers) choosing to stay home. But there needs to be a plan in place, so the spouse who is no longer working for renumeration in the public sphere can still pay the mortgage and put food on the table if the breadwinner is no longer around.

    To the extent that traditional gender roles interfere with such planning, then they are far from a “non-issue.”

    Comment by L. — December 14, 2009 @ 12:30 am

  126. L, I agree that that is one issue (believe me, I know. My grandpa died and left my grandma a widow with 5 small children. My dad abandoned my mom with 6 small children). That’s why I got my MBA before having kids. I knew I needed a game plan if something went wrong.

    The church is actually really good about encouraging women to get education for the “what-ifs”.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 14, 2009 @ 12:34 am

  127. So, do we as women become “invisible” because we are modeling after what we perceive the role of Heavenly Mother to be? Are we patterning our lives after our Hevenly Parents lives’ (or what we think them to be?) Or, do we project the type of relationship fallen men have created onto our Heavenly Parents?

    Stephanie, I think our perceptions of those roles was created by cultural conditions. Nowhere in the Old Testament does it describe the relationship between HF and HM.

    I think that, even more than projecting our flawed relationships onto our Heavenly Parents, we have for millennia been guilty of just projecting it onto God. I know this is terribly heretical, but I am getting more and more wary of the whole concept that this powerful, all-knowing creating divinity we worship is some great cosmic male.

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 14, 2009 @ 12:37 am

  128. WJ, seriously, you have no idea who you are talking. Stephanie is not the man-hating, institution-destroying radical you’ve made her out to be. Some of us on here might be guilty of the assumptions you’ve pinned on her, but really…. you’re just barking up the wrong tree.

    She’s really just incredibly reasonable. Which can sometimes be very difficult to deal with. :)

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 14, 2009 @ 12:39 am

  129. LOL, Natalie. :)

    Comment by Stephanie — December 14, 2009 @ 12:42 am

  130. Somehow getting an education for a “what if” still doesnt work for me…why would I spend thousands of dollars on something to tuck away just in cause I need it..and if I dont “need it ” what then..I love motherhood and being a wife by the way…do you ever look around your ward and see a total lack of enthusiasm in some womens face…I think the church is feeling threatened about sites where women can really share thoughts and feel some validation about them..that they are not on the trail to hell. The one exception..Mormon Mommy Blogs..ugh!

    Comment by M — December 14, 2009 @ 12:02 pm

  131. Just had our first home teachers in quite a while…He taught from the proclamation on the family about heavenly mother.

    Why do we have to get an education for a “Reason” what if we really like to learn? What if we love the way it feels, or it improves our minds, or education is for eternity? What if we parent better when we have something to think about that doesn’t involve ajax? There is a peace of mind knowing I can work and my staying at home is a choice…but that’s not why I got my education.

    Comment by britt — December 14, 2009 @ 12:26 pm

  132. I agree M and britt. I was just addressing L’s comment that there needs to be a plan in place, and I feel that the church supports that. I also feel that the church supports getting education just to improve the quality of your life in whatever way. I feel the church is very supportive of education for both men and women.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 14, 2009 @ 12:47 pm

  133. 130—

    except for my blog, of course. My blog is way cool.

    And my two cousins.

    My sisters don’t blog. They’re internet snobs.

    I love finding an intelligent mommy blog that mentions things other than cardmaking and/or recipe sharing and large, dewy-eyed pics of their perfectly groomed children. have you ever read Mormon Mommy Wars? Oooooohhh, classic. It feeds my soul :)

    Comment by sare — December 14, 2009 @ 1:29 pm

  134. How about getting an education to further your career?

    I get the “what-if” scenarios. I get the “education for self-enlightenment” bit. But men don’t have to come up with all these reasons for going to school. Why do women?

    Can you imagine a group of young men being told, “It’s really important that you go to school and learn a marketable skill, just in case your wife can’t work or dies or leaves you.” People would have NO idea how to respond.

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 14, 2009 @ 1:42 pm

  135. I don’t feel like I am very clear.

    What’s wrong with, “I went to school to study math because I want to be a mathemetician”?

    For us, it’s expected to be, “I went to school to study math, because I want to be able to be a mathematician in case my husband becomes incapacitated.”

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 14, 2009 @ 1:43 pm

  136. Hmm. Is an internet snob someone who doesn’t do a mommy blog because they don’t like them? Okay, guilty as charged. Just didn’t know there was a name for it. :)

    Comment by Stephanie — December 14, 2009 @ 1:56 pm

  137. Coincidentally, I first found my way to this site from a link on a Mormom Mommy Blog I have enjoyed over the years —

    http://tangled-me.blogspot.com/

    And this is a guest post she wrote for the main site:

    http://mormonmommyblogs.blogspot.com/2009/08/celestial-boy-in-telestial-world.html

    I think there should be a subset: “Feminist Mormon Mommy Blogs.”

    Comment by L. — December 14, 2009 @ 6:25 pm

  138. I stand chastened, L. I retract my previous statement that I don’t like mommy blogs. Some of them (particularly the ones that share life as it really is like the one you linked to) are gems.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 14, 2009 @ 7:12 pm

  139. But one of my biggest pet peeves is when I ask someone, “So, how are you doing?” and they answer, “Check out my blog”. Uh, okay.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 14, 2009 @ 7:19 pm

  140. L. I am humbled by your link and your willingness to show me as a non “waste of time” Mormon Mommy blogger. You have been a non judgmental friend in a world that seems to thrive on finger pointing and blaming.

    Comment by Jo — December 14, 2009 @ 9:35 pm

  141. Jo? Is this your first comment in a while? or am I imaging that we’ve had another Jo on the board for several months?

    Comment by mfranti — December 14, 2009 @ 9:44 pm

  142. For my own comment on this subject, I find the Euro-centric mannerism of people introducing themselves by “what” they do, rather than who they are to be quite strange. My culture, (Native American) WHO you are, who you belong to, where you come from, defines you far, far more than WHAT you do. Sure it nice if you are lawyer, or a teacher, but WHO are your relatives and more importantly, are we somehow related, or do we know both know someone? Now that is an accomplishment. You should see people rack their brains trying to figure out a common link. That feels like home to me.

    Comment by Jo — December 14, 2009 @ 9:45 pm

  143. And yes, Mfranti, tis me! Missing, but not dead. I had an incredibly insane Autumn, and I am barely starting to dig out of it, so my blog presence has been pretty slim. I checked my statcounter today and I have TON of hits from here and I was thinking… um? What? I haven’t commented in a long time, and what is going on? Came on over to be completely humbled.

    Comment by Jo — December 14, 2009 @ 11:33 pm

  144. This is my first comment on here. It all comes down to whether we are human doings or human beings. The church culture puts a whole lot of focus on all that we DO and not the essence of simply being.

    When I go to church, I see so many faces completely devoid of joy when I look at the women. They seem tired, uninterested and like they are there out of obligation. It’s particularly tough for the women who have to bring a baby under 18 months into Sunday School and Relief Society.

    I grew up in churches with nurseries that were fully equipped with cribs, swings, changing tables, etc. I volunteered in those nurseries from age 13 on and took care of babies and young children while mothers went to church, and it worked out well for everyone! I got to be with the small children I loved, and the moms got to actually sit in church and listen to the preaching and enjoy singing along with the music and be close with their spouses if they had one.

    For myself, I make absolutely sure that I continue to pursue my interests and talents. There was never a question as to whether or not I’d continue using my gifts after I was married. I told my husband flat out when we were engaged, “If you want the barefoot, pregnant Relief Society president in the making, don’t marry me! I’m never going to quit using my talents, and if you expect that, move along!”

    He’s never, ever questioned it since we’ve been married. I think he realizes that I’m a great woman, and my career is part of the package deal. This is the package he wanted, and he gets to celebrate my success with me! It’s not something I’ll ever compromise to “fit it”.

    I simply trust God that He will provide friends and kindred spirits. If they are not in my ward all the time, so what? I’ve got friends who love me, a career I completely enjoy, the ability to still stay at home most of the time and not be my own ghost. Life is good!

    Comment by Jen h. — December 16, 2009 @ 3:38 pm

  145. 144 (Jen h.) - “If you want the barefoot, pregnant Relief Society president in the making, don’t marry me! I’m never going to quit using my talents, and if you expect that, move along!”

    Are you implying that RS Presidents and RS Presidents in the making either don’t have talents or don’t use their talents? I personally have never met an RS President who didn’t abound in talent and use those talents to (1) create amazing things despite very limited resources, AND (2) solve problems, the frequency and magnitude of which 95%+ of people will never face in their careers.

    Comment by Allison — December 16, 2009 @ 7:43 pm

  146. Being YW Pres twice sure used all my talents (and taught me some I didn’t know I had). I was profoundly happy in the service and with my life, too. I know we shouldn’t aspire to callings, but I hope to have the opportunity to do something like that again.

    I also really love my children and find moments of deeply profound happiness that I am not sure I could find elsewhere.

    I really think the key is to find balance so that you don’t get to the point of sheer fatigue. But, even then, I try to remind myself that this is but a small moment. Very soon, my kids will want to be away from me, and I am sure I will long for these moments again.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 16, 2009 @ 7:55 pm

  147. 145. Sure, Relief Society presidents are talented. I did not mean to imply that they are not! But I’m not referring to my own talents in the same way a Relief Society president uses hers. I have certain abilities that I wanted to continue to use even if it wasn’t in a church setting, and that’s what I was referring to!

    Comment by Jen h. — December 16, 2009 @ 9:31 pm

  148. I just had to share this, as I thought it was somewhat fitting with this post: “What really matters is that he will love you, that he will respect you, that he will honor you, that he will be absolutely true to you, that he will give you freedom of expression and let you fly in the development of your own talents. ” Gordon B Hinckley, to the women of the church, November, 2003.

    Comment by ErinAnn — December 17, 2009 @ 5:59 pm

  149. ErinAnn, is that referring to a future husband?

    Comment by Stephanie — December 17, 2009 @ 6:07 pm

  150. Rad post. Love it.

    Comment by Jon — December 18, 2009 @ 1:34 pm

  151. Stephanie,

    I consider a person who believes that spending time on the internet is a silly waste of brain cells an internet snob. Both my sisters (one in particular, who doesn’t even have internet in her home) fall into that category, and kind of roll their eyes at me when I talk about how I heard this or that piece of news from someone’s blog or from Facebook or something :)

    Comment by sare — December 19, 2009 @ 1:02 am

  152. So what do you call a person who uses the internet as her life blood? Who wonders how women ever survived being at home with kids before the Internet? I think the Lord knew what generation I needed to be born in. What a tender mercy. Count my blessings!

    Comment by Stephanie — December 19, 2009 @ 1:20 am

  153. Stephanie, yes. You can find the talk here. He prefaced that description with this advice: “Now, we have a very diverse group to whom I am speaking. This includes young women who are still in school or who are working. You are single. You are hoping to catch that perfect man. I have yet to see one who is perfect. Aim high, but do not aim so high that you totally miss the target.”

    I just thought it was good to see (in light of the dolldrums that have been rolling out of this post) that the men of the church should support “their” women in the development of their talents, but moreso that the women should FLY in the development of their talents. To me, that sounds like a lot more than the occasional scrapbooking party or cooking class.

    Comment by ErinAnn — December 19, 2009 @ 2:16 am

  154. ErinAnn, there’s a lot of great stuff in that talk that relates to this thread. Thank you for sharing it. I remember when he gave it. I liked it, but I was in a different stage back then. It holds whole new meaning for me now.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 19, 2009 @ 2:31 am

  155. stephanie, while i don’t have as many kids as you do (i’ve got two) i feel a lot like you do in many ways.

    i liked what you said about balance. my problem is my life is always SO out of balance. without going into the imbalances of the past, currently, with my husband in afghanistan, i do everything. all the time. and as an army wife, that is what we sign up to do. he’s been gone for almost five months and many days i feel as if i’m drowning. that i’m completely overwhelmed. things have fallen through the cracks, especially how my home looks. i didn’t put my son in wrestling because of how much time was required and i just didn’t have that time without my husband here to help me.

    i am finally to the point that i think i will hire a regular babysitter once school starts back up in january. and when my husband gets back this summer, i am hoping, planning on taking a vacation without my family. leaving him doing what he tells me is “so much easier” than what he does at work. hahahahahahaha. the last time he was alone with the kids was over three years ago, while we were in germany, and i went to ireland for a weekend to visit an old missionary companion.

    not long after i arrived here in my little town in the PNW, i was in a conversation with three other army wives. and all the three talked about was their husbands career, what rank he was, where he had been, how many times he had been gone, and what their plans were for his future in the army. i looked around me, and after a few minutes, got up and went into the other room. i couldn’t handle it. one of these women was a lawyer for heavens sake. you think this happens a lot in the LDS world, try the army world where your entire world revolves around that husbands career. where you just can’t quit, or change jobs. and if you do, it could ruin your entire life.

    man its late. i hope i spelling everything right. and made sense.

    Comment by Terina — December 19, 2009 @ 4:50 am

  156. haha. i hope i AM speeling everything right. yikes. maybe way too late……

    Comment by Terina — December 19, 2009 @ 4:53 am

  157. and choosing to be barefoot and pregnant is what? total waste? worst. thing. ever. ?

    we’ve had a lot of generalizations recently about pregnancy = ewwww

    pregnancy and motherhood is one way a woman can make an incredible difference in the world. I’m totally in favor of developing talents (and no the once a month scrapbook class isn’t enough). I do think magnifying our callings can help us develop new talents.

    I do think we need to revamp our concept of what motherhood looks like a bit, that encourages and normalizes developing oneself.

    Comment by britt — December 19, 2009 @ 8:55 am

  158. Leaving him doing what he tells me is “so much easier” than what he does at work

    I used to think that maybe it was harder to be a working parent, having a difficult job and then having to come home to a busy house of kids and cleaning and cooking. Then I started working as a nurse, 13-hour shifts in the ICU, extremely stressful, busy job, then coming home to two little kids. Being a stay-at-home mom is totally harder! So there hubbies!

    I totally know what you mean about military wives. We have all these socials where all we talk about is what’s going on with our husbands. You really have to dig to find out about what’s going on in their own lives. It is really nice, though, to be in a community where everyone really does understand what we’re going through though. Last time my husband deployed, I lived with my parents and NOBODY in the ward or neighborhood could understand and I felt a lot more alone. I love my military sistas. Good luck with everything. My heart is with you. My dh will be leaving to Afghanistan in a couple weeks too. Maybe they’ll run into each other. :)

    Comment by jen — December 19, 2009 @ 10:23 am

  159. Terina and jen, bless the both of you (and all army spouses). I absolutely know I would fall apart if DH was gone for more than a couple of days at a time. I know I could not be the wife of a consultant (although I could probably be a consultant :) ). Bless single mothers. Raising kids is hard. Being a parent is hard no matter where on the working out of the home scale you fall. I am firmly convinced that it takes two parents. It can be pulled off (and beautifully) with one, but wow, does it take a lot out of that one. I’m starting to wonder if polygamy is really so bad. If I could be the pretty one with the job and the other wife be at home with the insanity, I could go for that. Of course, I’d also be the old, fat one, so maybe not.

    I do think we need to revamp our concept of what motherhood looks like a bit, that encourages and normalizes developing oneself.

    True . . . here comes motherhood feminism!

    I really do hate pregnancy, britt. I thought that maybe as I did it more, I would enjoy it more (ha!) or at least miss it when I’m done. This whole last pregnancy, I tried to tell myself, “Enjoy this. You will never again have this experience”. But, really, I just wanted it to end. I was miserable. Still, I am so grateful for the experience and for my children. I hold the process of bringing souls into this world sacred. I do feel like creating and nurturing life within my body gives me a taste of God’s power. I just wish it wasn’t so hard! Then again, Heavenly Father told Eve it would be “sorrow”.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 19, 2009 @ 11:19 am

  160. Bless single mothers.

    Oh, absolutely. I totally realized after I wrote it that what I said was insensitive and just the case from my own perspective and life. When I was working full-time, my husband definitely picked up my slack at home and it really helped him appreciate how much was involved in taking care of the kids and the home and he acknowledged that I did have it tough as the SAHM. But even having experienced deployments, I cannot imagine how difficult it is to be a single parent. Those moms and dads are truly amazing.

    If I could be the pretty one with the job and the other wife be at home with the insanity, I could go for that.

    LOL. I’ve always told DH that polygamy would be fine with me as long as I was the one to marry the other wife.

    Comment by jen — December 19, 2009 @ 11:45 am

  161. What I want is not another wife, but a few slaves.
    Perhaps the lawyers could answer this for me; if it’s not involuntary, is it still illegal?

    Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — December 19, 2009 @ 12:41 pm

  162. 161 Suzanne, I always say this when (straight :) women flippantly reply that they want a wife. Although, to be pc, I should probably just say a cadre of personal assistants. Cultural expectations to be on top of every single detail of home, spouse, yard, work, etc. is diabolical.

    Comment by Lupita — December 19, 2009 @ 1:24 pm

  163. But slavery is not sanctioned by God - polygamy is! ;)

    Comment by Stephanie — December 19, 2009 @ 2:24 pm

  164. I’ve always told DH that polygamy would be fine with me as long as I was the one to marry the other wife.

    Um….. seriously though, were the wives in polygamous marriages married to each other too? Like, in the physical sense?

    Because if it meant extra wives around the house AND some God-sanctioned diversions in the bedroom (ahem)….. I might rethink my views….

    Comment by Hammie — December 19, 2009 @ 2:52 pm

  165. Um…. reverse my quotes in the comment above…. I have no idea how that thing works.

    Comment by Hammie — December 19, 2009 @ 2:53 pm

  166. Sorry to resurrect this thread again, but I’ve been pondering over something the past few days and need to spit it out. I can articulate one way women in the church become “ghosts”. When DH was called into the Bishopric, the only thing the stake president told the wives (while looking directly and pointedly at me) was, “Don’t complain when he comes home late. The last thing he needs after a long day serving others is to come home and be whined at for how he was gone all day”. I have a friend whose family has been serving faithfully in the Spanish Branch for over two years. She is in my ward and was told that it would be a 2 year calling. It has been extremely hard on their family (that’s an understatement). After the two years were up, she asked a member of the stake presidency when they would be released, and he said, “You don’t ask questions like that”.

    Over the past couple of years, through experiences like these, I am hearing the message loud and clear. The message is this: the people your husband is serving are important, your husband is important, but you are not important. After all their needs are met, then you may sweetly and kindly, smile, make-up and apron on, possibly consider yourself. Of course, the plain truth is that their needs are NEVER met, so I am always left waiting and waiting for someone to consider me. (And of course I feel selfish even saying that because I am conditioned to always think of others before myself, even to my detriment)

    After expressing that I appreciate that our church does not hold Christmas Eve or Christmas morning services on another blog because it would require the Bishopric to preside over and others to plan, a commenter said this to me:

    And, Stephanie, while I’m sure that the bishopric, et al, is thrilled that there is no Christmas Eve service, the lack of community events close to Christmas can be, I think, very hard on those without families of their own.

    Granted, she has a point (I don’t want to get into the particulars of this topic), but the message I heard loud and strong is this (and granted, I took it very personally because I am extremely sensitive right now): you are not important. The needs of your family don’t matter. After everyone else’s needs are met, then you may consider your own.

    That is the same message told to us women over and over and over again. I guess I’m just tired of hearing it.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 20, 2009 @ 9:12 pm

  167. The message is this: the people your husband is serving are important, your husband is important, but you are not important.

    I think that many times “the big picture” is lost/misunderstood as it travels from the Prophet and Apostles to our local leaders. In worldwide leadership training (WWLT) in June 2003, President Hinckley prioritized responsibilities as:

    (1) Your spouse
    (2) Your children
    (3) Providing for your family
    (4) Church service

    Elder L. Tom Perry spoke about these priorities in his February 2006 WWLT talk, “A Solemn Responsibility to Love and Care for Each Other” (link below). This seems like info that ward and stake Priesthood leaders (and their wives and children!) need to know:

    http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,6560-1-3363-4,00.html

    What are your thoughts?

    Comment by Allison — December 20, 2009 @ 10:42 pm

  168. Allison, thank you for sharing that talk. I am not sure that either DH or I attended that Leadership training. I don’t think either of us had a calling at that point in time that would have invited us to it. But, it is really great! I agree with what you said that the big picture is lost as it travels. Perhaps because the work on the ground is so much more complicated that talking in hypotheticals. I don’t know. But, clearly, my experience has not been the ideal.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 20, 2009 @ 10:56 pm

  169. I found out about President Hinckley’s counsel on priorities when President Uchtdorf visited our Stake a few years ago and gave a WONDERFUL talk on it. My husband and I were both VERY happy (and somewhat surprised) to hear that our priorities were in fact those advised by the Prophet and the Apostles. “On the ground,” in local leadership callings, it too often seems as if neglecting one’s family to give one’s all to heavy callings is encouraged as a “noble” sacrifice.

    Talk to your husband. Hire a babysitter. Get out. Or stay in. Being a mom is hard work. You need and deserve some breaks/variety!!!

    Comment by Allison — December 21, 2009 @ 12:07 pm

  170. “On the ground,” in local leadership callings, it too often seems as if neglecting one’s family to give one’s all to heavy callings is encouraged as a “noble” sacrifice.

    True

    Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 12:11 pm

  171. IME what happens is other people are harder to say no to then your spouse. We often make the ones who understand and love us the most BE understanding as they wait in line for time and attention. It is difficult to know there are people who need you for your calling and you are supposed to represent the Lord to that person, and say no.

    I do think that is wrong. I do think the priorities should be as described in that talk…it’s just difficult when the quantity of time spent doesn’t really reflect the values

    Comment by britt — December 21, 2009 @ 1:26 pm

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