I’m Done with Modesty

By: Guest - December 20, 2009

By: Heidi

I recently realized that, at the age of 32, I’m done with modesty. My epiphany occurred during a stake leadership training meeting while listening to an impromptu talk from my stake president. While I usually find him to be very reasonable and thoughtful, I found myself annoyed as I listened to him urge us to be “even more strict and disciplined with ourselves” particularly in avoidance of inappropriate music, movies, television and dress. Never mind that he was speaking to adults who had dragged themselves to the stake center (more than an hour away for most of us) on a school night for a three-hour meeting to train them to do more with the demanding callings they were already doing — no one was off the hook.  When he spoke about modesty, he said, “We need to do better. In every ward I visit, there is always some corner of the congregation where the brethren on the stand cannot look. And, this is not the young women – these are the adult women!”

I was bothered by the whole talk, but I was extremely troubled with this statement. It made it clear to me, in a way I hadn’t fully understood before, that modesty is less about morality than it is about women being asked to dress for the comfort of men. I don’t imagine the brethren on the stand give a second thought to whether the cut of their suits or the way their trousers hang will arouse any of the sisters. I am asked to dress up to go church and simultaneously expected to be hyper vigilant about whether my choice of clothing might make a man that is not my husband uncomfortable and always aware that my body is a public commodity. Given that we put women in the church up on a pedestal and expect them to be receptive and sensitive to the male gaze and then ask them to be simultaneously in the world, but not of the world, all while seeking perfection – is it really so surprising that Utah is the plastic surgery capital of the United States?

And, I’m not making a comment on the morality of plastic surgery. It is certainly one way of addressing the expectations our society has of women’s bodies, but I have chosen another path to deal with those expectations and this gets to the heart of my problem with modesty.  After the meeting, I was complaining to my Relief Society president and one of the counsellors about the talk and she said, “Well, I do see a lot of boobs in our ward.”

To which I responded, “Well, he is probably talking about me then. Because even though my garments have always been covered – boobs are hard to dress around, they are always there.” The counselor laughed because she is similarly endowed and my RS pres shrugged, saying “Maybe I am just jealous that I don’t have that problem.”

 What I didn’t tell her is that it has taken a good portion of my life not to see it as a shameful problem. I was a girl that needed a bra by the 4th grade. By 6th grade, save some baby fat, I had pretty much reached my adult height, shape and weight. And, take it from me, a Marilyn Monroe shaped 11-year-old is a ridiculous creature. I spent my teens horrified by my traitorous and unwieldy chest. I longed for a stylish gamine shape that would suit my bookishness and for a long time I wore clothes that my husband affectionately called “ponchos” to hide my body.

After I got married and while I was still in my 20s – I got really tired of it all. I got tired of the endless body obsessions and diet talk that dominated all my female conversations. It might seem shallow, but I am willing to bet that many of the women on the board have some experience with body issues and many of the men have a spouse, sister or friend that suffers under the weight of their self-loathing. It takes up too much mental real estate and I found that I was unwilling to spend the rest of my life with unrelenting body anxiety. For me, the answer seems to lie in really owning and enjoying the body I am in. I started eating intuitively, doing exercise I actually enjoyed and focusing on health rather than thinness. After awhile, I began to dress with my own comfort and pleasure in mind and not to conceal or deny what my body is. Anyone who has seen an episode of TLC’s What Not to Wear knows the drill – I try to accentuate the positive and skim over the things I don’t like. Out went the ponchos and in came clothes that were more flattering; although, not all that revealing because honestly that wouldn’t have been comfortable either – I’m not pretending the male gaze doesn’t exist, but at this point in my life, I feel I am choosing how much of it I am comfortable attracting.

And, I’ll be honest – the peace I have with my body is fragile and easily knocked off course.  I am still too pleased when someone tells me I’m pretty and too hurt when someone insinuates that my clothing might not be modest, but I increasingly try not to be too attached to the positive or the negative and more concerned with how I feel. Climbing down from the pedestal was difficult to do, but I’m happier with my feet firmly on the ground.


286 Comments »

  1. Why ask men to learn a little self-discipline when repressing women works just as well?

    (I am not saying it is okay for women to ignore modesty altogether. But hyper-modesty can kiss my skinny, bony butt.)

    If your stake president really thinks boobs are a problem, maybe the ward should hand out some of these.

    Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers — December 20, 2009 @ 12:18 am

  2. Wow, Heidi, I so agree. When going shopping, and automatically disqualifying so many clothes because that little strip of fabric doesn’t really count as a sleeve, I get so frustrated. I feel like I am being treated like a child, even though I know that’s not the intent.

    I give exactly the impression of myself that I want to give. I carry myself the way I want to carry myself, speak the way I want to, and choose styles that reflect who I am. But I’m supposed to be believe that showing my shoulder is going to cause some poor unsuspecting male to disregard all of that and go crazy with lust? No. If I wanted to dress in an arousing way, I could do it. I don’t need you giving me strict little rules to help me out. I’m an adult woman.

    Anyway….. I SO get what you are saying here. We’re expected to be so pretty and desirable, but only in a masked, non-obvious way. Be attractive if you want a husband, but don’t flaunt your body, or the men will know you don’t respect God! Our bodies are still just as much “for sale”…. the bargaining just happens in a different language.

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 20, 2009 @ 12:28 am

  3. I so agree with this post!

    Comment by Tatiana — December 20, 2009 @ 12:33 am

  4. I love it Heidi. I think you’re awesome.

    Comment by Reese Dixon — December 20, 2009 @ 12:33 am

  5. With you on this- the larger the chest, the harder to hide and my garments are always covered. Even my temple-acceptable wedding dress allowed for ample cleavage (that I am not proud of, I would get a reduction if I could!).

    Also, why don’t women EVER wear dress pants? I wore Ann Taylor pants (100 bucks) one Sunday and eye the up/down eyes from EVERY woman in church. I am sorry, but my pants were much dressier than half of the frosted denim jumpers all around me.

    Comment by Crystal — December 20, 2009 @ 12:40 am

  6. LOL. I actually get more frustrated when people start saying things like “Women can be porn to men if they tanktops” while at the same time, never tell a man to take off his shirt while he’s struttin’ around during a church event.

    I feel that people tend to think that men only look lustfully at sleeveless women, and yet, women don’t when she sees a (good looking) shirtless man. BS!

    I personally think that modesty is just as important for men as it is for women.

    Comment by Katherine — December 20, 2009 @ 1:05 am

  7. I wear leggings under all of my dresses in the winter. Does that count as pants at church? And I totally do the leggings-with-long-shirt-that-covers-my-bum - look. I figure if they’re not tight enough to show my “panty lines” then they’re fine as pants. My husband thinks I’m hot and I don’t think that my modesty has been “compromised”.

    Comment by ErinAnn — December 20, 2009 @ 1:35 am

  8. Here Here! From large chested gals every where. My philosophy is, if my garments are covered, then I’m being modest. If “the brethren” can’t bare the sight of the 1/2 inch of cleavage I might be showing, than they need to grow up.

    Comment by Risa — December 20, 2009 @ 1:36 am

  9. I love this post!

    I also suffer the affliction of a large chest. One major problem buying clothes is that my chest is a size 10/12 and my waist is a size 8. If I buy the size 10 top, there are several inches of fabric left around my waist that drape in a flow-y manner. This makes me look pregnant However, if I buy the size 8 top, my waist looks great but my boobs are squeezed in within an inch of their life. This is not modest.

    So I’m left with a wonderful choice: Do I attend my singles ward in a shirt that is very tight around my boobs or in a shirt that makes me look pregnant? Awesome.

    Also, at the moment I’m frantically running around trying to find matching fabric to make this bridesmaid dress “modest” http://shop.nordstrom.com/S/3033897 Honestly, I’m getting to the point where I think the “stress” the groom and groomsmen will undergo by seeing my upper arm (almost none) is totally worth it compared to the stress I’m going through to find extra fabric and a seamstress!! Grrr!!

    Comment by Anastacia — December 20, 2009 @ 1:36 am

  10. PS: Do the men get “you are in control of your own thoughts no matter what women wear” talks? And if so, are they told this as much as we women are told to dress modestly?

    Comment by Anastacia — December 20, 2009 @ 1:42 am

  11. This was a great post. Thanks!

    Comment by Eris — December 20, 2009 @ 1:47 am

  12. Anastacia, that dress is HOT! And, sleeves will, sadly, ruin it. I do not think it is at all distasteful to begin with, but we have to go and ruin it to conform to these arbitrary lines men have drawn on our bodies. Sigh.

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 20, 2009 @ 1:58 am

  13. Anastacia: I don’t often get those kind of lectures, and I’m a man. I do remember the wife of a Stake President’s Counselor comment to the Stake YM in a meeting about modesty applying to them in dress, as well. I know one woman I worked with comment that some men should not wear things like a speedo swimsuit, less than modest for some.

    Oh my, I feel for you women. I feel sorry for the women with AA cup breasts, but larger sizes attract too much attention at times.

    Of course, they mentioned once on the TV show “The Doctors” that many large breasted women get the wrong sized bra, which can make things worse.

    And, things go one extreme or the other so often with modesty. Some in the Church approach the Taliban view of women bringing sin if they are not 100% covered. I wonder how they deal with women at their work, or in public.

    Then I see the other extreme, like a 16 year old or so YW (likely not a member) at our Public Library, NO bra, and just a thin T-shirt on. That makes it very hard for us men not to “slobber” about it, no matter how well disciplined we might be. To say nothing of what it can do to a real sexual predator!

    Of course, there’s the family culture. We had a couple of semi-active teen YW in our Ward, who didn’t wear bras at Church. Our Bishop at the time didn’t see much good in me anyhow, and I think I made it worse by mentioning my modesty concerns about those YW to him. Well, I saw these YW in the store once, with their parents. Yikes, the mother was wearing no bra as well, and her shirt was not very thick, either. So, I suspect the mother was a big influence in those YW not wearing bras.

    Crystal: I’ve seen some ugly dresses, and some nice pantsuits. Go figure.

    Comment by Mike H. — December 20, 2009 @ 2:10 am

  14. Natalie K.

    Thanks! I really like the dress too, and I’m terrified that some seamstress is going to add frumpy sleeves (that are a SLIGHTLY different shade of green!). Aren’t weddings hard enough already? Why must I spend even more time and money trying to make an already modest dress “more modest”? I say “more modest” b/c I’ll probably put some kind of cap sleeve on the dress, so if the groomsmen really want to see my upper arm they still will be able to from certain angles! (gasp!). I find it strange how this small, meaningless step will make the dress socially acceptable.

    Comment by Anastacia — December 20, 2009 @ 2:17 am

  15. Mike K:

    I figured as much, and that kinda bugs me. I feel like too much is being put on women and not enough on men.

    I understand that men aren’t going to see a girl in a thin shirt with no bra on and think absolutely nothing at all about it…but still…couldn’t some time be spent on teaching men how to appropriately deal with these situations? I feel it would be more productive than tell me several times a year that sleeves are a must and/or hanging signs on campus to alert me that a skirt above the knee plus leggings is NOT modest (thanks BYU!).

    Comment by Anastacia — December 20, 2009 @ 2:28 am

  16. Whoops…I meant Mike H., but I’m sure he understood that!

    Comment by Anastacia — December 20, 2009 @ 2:29 am

  17. Anastacia,

    Have the dress altered AT Nordstrom. They have in-house folks. Correct fabrics, good taste (generally speaking).

    Comment by ErinAnn — December 20, 2009 @ 2:34 am

  18. okay… so now I see that it’s available only online. Call the store and ask them about bringing it in for alterations.

    Comment by ErinAnn — December 20, 2009 @ 2:35 am

  19. ErinAnn, thanks for the advice! I tried that and they told me they don’t do “style changes,” however, I’m hoping they come through with matching fabric!!

    Comment by Anastacia — December 20, 2009 @ 2:51 am

  20. I love this post! I am the sort of person who goes to the gym, works hard for my body and does not feel ashamed to “show” it off if I am covering my garments. I wear shirt dresses with leggings and tight fitting clothing that is still appropriate for where I am at! I think beautiful women will be noticed anywhere whether for their bodies or for their faces/hair etc. and asking a woman to subdue their natural beauty so that men don’t go crazy over her is ridiculous. Fear God and then Fear Man! Most of the time I find it is insecure and jealous women who are far more offended by immodesty. I think it is these women coming home and sounding off to their “priesthood leader” husbands that they should DO SOMETHING about this problem! I completely agree with Natalie and Heidi that we are expected to be desirable and not too desirable I think lips and eyes can be as sexy and irreverently immodest as cleavage and I think that continuing to put women in charge of how men think, act and behave towards them is completley archaic!! Women are meant to have curves to have cleavage to be fertile-looking and attractive so that we can pro-create, if men are perversing what our God designed genetics are meant for us women- we are not responsible for that! HERE HERE to all the sexy and glamorous women out there who are NOT ASHAMED of their bodies, I have found the people who want to make you feel ashamed about your body are mostly repressing some serious issues they have about their own god given one!

    Comment by Sara — December 20, 2009 @ 4:18 am

  21. This thread is making me think of my efforts to teach modesty, without introducing shame. My 4 year old is having a nudist phase. Any excuse, and she’ll strip right off. It is really hard to explain to her why she need to be dressed, in the privacy of our own home without saying anything that might make her ashamed of her body.
    My 12 year old son has a significant weight problem, and in the past when we have been focused on weight loss our 10 year old daughter has absorbed attitudes to, and a focus on eating that is really un-healthy.
    I’m over weight too, but I love my body, and all the wonderful things it can do. I dance (ballet) I swim, I ride a bike. I do not say “does my butt look big in this?” My kids see me naked sometimes, and half dressed and I have no shame about this. I wonder though if I am too relaxed about it, and that is why I’m struggling with my little stripper.
    It is really tricky to get the balance right between modesty and shame.

    Comment by Chibbylick — December 20, 2009 @ 5:14 am

  22. And, take it from me, a Marilyn Monroe shaped 11-year-old is a ridiculous creature.

    *Spit take*

    Yeah, I recall being the only 6th grader with a C cup. It was not fun. Great post!

    I will admit that the modesty issue has always bugged me, too. I’m a lady who HATES the “letter of the law” and always bristles at anything resembling the law of Moses. BUT, with “modesty” I have decided to take a law of Moses–so-long-as-it-covers-my-garments route (as assessed at the beginning of the day before the silkies shift into whatever strange and humiliating position they wish). Hence, I have some very cleavagey tops that I admit are a little gauche for a modest Mormon, yet they work with my garments. I don’t love that I do this, but I resent my garments and almost see it as a sense of rebellion against the institution. So while some people will get super-blessings for following a commandment joyfully, I’m currently content to accept less blessings just for my unenthusiastic compliance.

    And another thing–why oh why oh why don’t garments come in a boat neck style? Every time I watch an old movie I cry inside for my garment-wearing inability to wear an extremely modest boat neck dress but my va-va-va-voom cleavage tops are in technical compliance.

    Comment by Motion de Smiths — December 20, 2009 @ 8:14 am

  23. I didn’t understand the boob issue much until I nursed twins…I have always been a small C…until I was a very full D and realized..YIKES cleavage all the time everywhere. None of my shirts fit. AND I looked so much fatter than I was just because I was so top heavy. When I weaned countless people commented on my recent weight loss.

    I think teaching men what to do with their thoughts is a great plan. I don’t see this as a “For their comfort” issue. I see it as a respect issue.. respect of our own bodies mostly…and respect for our spirits and minds. It is important that we represent our most important features-our spirits and minds, and not distract from them overwelmingly with our bodies. We want people to come to know us-our spirits and minds-listen to us, learn with us, let us know them-attracting attention to our bodies inhibits that process.

    As an athlete I’ve always focused on what the body can do, and worried much less about what the body can look like. Admittedly I’m more of a candidate for ” what not to wear” as a result and I could use some improvement there.

    In church it is a sign of respect to dress in such a way as to not draw attention-to not become a focus when the focus should be Christ. In that vein, I’m less worried about a hemline a bit too short and more worried about the “look at me” stuff. That’s my opinion-Young men also dress for attention. Are we trying to dress to prepare to worship the Lord, or dress to get attention? That clarifies the issue for me. Judging others in this issue is difficult because what they are used to and have grown up with isn’t distracting to them. They may be wearing their Sunday best. It is a maturing process to realize how our actions (however small) affect others.

    IMO 4yo strippers are a different animal all together. Literally sometimes-my 4yos really like to be cats and frequently come in just their underwear to the kitchen and ask for a bowl of water on the floor. I don’t really give it half a thought-unless people are coming over, then I encourage them to get dressed and not lick the people coming over-they may not be playing kitty

    We had a YW in our last ward who frequently wore short skirts and then (and this was the bigger problem IMO) sat in such a way that anyone walking by the room could see all the way up her skirt to her underwear. How do you handle that? Is that really “just for men’s comfort”? Is it really unreasonable to expect to walk through a church building casually and not see a 17yo’s underwear? I’m not saying we stop and fixate on it…but really?

    Comment by britt — December 20, 2009 @ 8:26 am

  24. I have to further agree with all the other large-breasted women about the difficulties of modesty. I am a 36DD, and I basically have two options: either wear something with a lower neckline (a v-neck), and be popping out with cleavage, or wear something with a high neckline (a crewneck) and have the shirt stretch obscenely across my breasts. I have found some tops that manage to cover without making the girls more of a showpiece than they are, but these tops are few and far between. People frequently comment how much I seem to enjoy showing off my breasts, and I respond that i don’t really enjoy it at all, I just want to be able to buy normal clothes rather than tents. My sister, who is a B on a good day, and I will wear the same shirt and everyone will give me dirty looks for my immodesty. It is very frustrating!

    However, my frustration with the church’s focus on modesty goes beyond my inability to reign in the girls. In my opinion, modesty should be about dressing in a manner that is respectful to yourself. I think if someone feels comfortable with how they are dressed, that is no one else’s business.

    I also think it’s funny how in primary they always tell that story about the kid who was so poor that he didn’t have nice shoes or clothes to come to church and just wore whatever, and no one ever said anything or made him feel bad, but rather welcomed him into the fold. And then when we reach our teens, the script changes and we are constantly reminded how important how we dress is to the Lord and to the men in the ward. I much prefer the first philosophy, that the Lord looks on the heart rather than the clothes. I think the men in the church should learn to look on the heart, rather than T&A. And the women should likewise welcome the less modestly dressed sisters with no undertones, and no side looks, just as we were taught in primary.

    Comment by Meg — December 20, 2009 @ 9:07 am

  25. I’ve never heard this kind of a lecture in my ward, or anything like unto it. I think part of the reason is that my ward happens to be both very missionary oriented and, as a consequence, very diverse. It’s not at all unusual for there to be women in our ward wearing sleeveless dresses and showing significant cleavage. But my impression is that our leadership is of the view that these women will eventually get the hint from observing the way the more experienced women n the Church dress. I can’t imagine them calling women out for theirparticular style of dress. Which is just one of the many reasons I love my ward/stake.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — December 20, 2009 @ 9:26 am

  26. Okay, I have to take issue with the whole idea that if it covers your garments you are modest. I think you can be totally inmodest while covering garments and completely modest wearing something that you couldn’t wear with garments. But, I think that sleaveless things are modest. I know it’s just me but I don’t think that we are asked to wear garments so that they will force us to be modest. They are a reminder of our covenants.

    Comment by Juniper — December 20, 2009 @ 9:58 am

  27. Chibbylick (#20) makes a good point about separating modesty and shame. The dude who gave this talk sounds, to me, like a real neanderthal; by framing so-called “modesty” in terms of mens’ wants and needs, he’s a) being repressive and chauvinistic and b) missing the point entirely. Ideally, modesty is supposed to be about self love. We dress to reflect our worth as Daughters of God; like Paul says, our bodies are Temples. What we wear should, therefore, be a personal choice; something’s modest (in the sense the word is really supposed to have) if we say it is.

    His discussion, it seems, was all about shame–do more, strive for more, and, by the way, don’t upset the brethren! How lame. Hopefully this talk isn’t representative of his general attitudes.

    Comment by CJ — December 20, 2009 @ 10:04 am

  28. Sorry Ladies, but I am going to chime, (probably to get mauled, but I will take my chances). I am married and have tried to explain this to my wife also, that guys are basically hornballs (aka natural man). Yes I know we need to have self restraint, but here is the bottom line, when guys see a hot lady, married or not, the thought goes through his mind of “I want that.” So if you want to dress in tight or revealing clothing that is you choice. But just know that you will be attracting unwanted attention whether you like it our not. Jesus taught that if a man looketh on a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery in his heart. But I think it takes two to tango, meaning if the woman helped instigate the thought, she is at least partially to blame pending there was a conscious effort put into dressing a certain way.

    Besides I dont think they are going to have lowcut or tight fitting clothes in the celestial kingdom, just saying. But life is about freedom of choice so you do what ever you want to.

    Comment by Guy in the room — December 20, 2009 @ 10:35 am

  29. Besides I dont think they are going to have lowcut or tight fitting clothes in the celestial kingdom, just saying.

    Maybe, maybe not. JSH - I could discover that he had no other clothing on but this robe, as it was open, so that I could see into his bosom.

    Comment by Howard — December 20, 2009 @ 11:01 am

  30. Mike H, just like wearing a bra does not necessarily make you modest, not wearing a bra does not necessarily make you immodest. Shirts that are too thin are immodest, but that’s true whether or not you have a bra on. I generally wear a bra when I go out, but that’s just because it’s a social nicety. I never wear a bra around my house, and I never feel immodest. Since I started with a very small chest and have nursed three babies since then I have no actual need of a bra. Most men need a bra more than I do.

    Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine, since I don’t physically need a bra for any reason and I find them incredibly uncomfortable.

    Comment by Vada — December 20, 2009 @ 11:02 am

  31. My sister, who has only sons, and I, who have both sons and daughters, have gone the rounds about this modesty issue more than once. She thinks it is unfair to make women responsible for men’s thoughts. While I generally agree with her on that I also recognize that there are many visual triggers in our culture and environment intended to titillate. To young women and girls the pervasiveness of these images in advertising and the media send the message that these kinds of clothes are acceptable.

    Somehow we must be able find a balance so that we can be attractive without being trashy.

    Since I served as a juror on a rape trial I have come to the conclusion that even if most men are able to ignore the triggers that are all around them; there will be enough who can’t , and some who have no insight or understanding into what might be an appropriate response that prudence is the better course. It is not so much a question of who is responsible for whose thoughts as it is what is the better course for everybody.

    Stake presidents and others often talk to the general rather than the specific. If you were to ask him directly if he were talking about the way you dress you would be better able to say that his remarks were directed at you. If they weren’t directed specifically at you wouldn’t it be interesting to know what else might have prompted such a talk.

    Comment by Claudia — December 20, 2009 @ 11:29 am

  32. No more body shame!!

    I kind of understand the whole hornball thing, but doesn’t a fully-clothed, attractive woman with a good figure turn men on more than an unattractive woman with less clothing? If this is the case, don’t women turn men on just by doing their hair and makeup and looking pretty?

    Over the years, all the modesty talks lead me to believe there is no solution for men’s horny thoughts other than purposely looking ugly or wearing ponchos and burqas.

    Too bad guys, deal with it.

    Comment by Andrea — December 20, 2009 @ 11:38 am

  33. #27 wow, said like a guy. Nuff said. wanna come shopping with me some time and try to FIND something that doesn’t look like a 100 yr old would wear it? Good luck with that. There is ideal, and then there is real. Loads of men just don’t get it.

    Comment by April — December 20, 2009 @ 11:42 am

  34. There are times when I go without a bra because of allergies I have to elastic & nylon. Yes, I have cotton garments and I wear the bra during those times when I go to church… but if I am in allergy overload mode, I’ll go without a bra while going to the store or puttering around the house.

    In the Lord’s time there were no bras. Women nursed in the open. I can imagine the SP’s reaction if one of the sisters popped a boob out to feed the baby during a meeting. Sorry, its just one of my pet peeves. Its sad that a woman can’t nurse in Church without being glared at. To bad for the natural woman. Even though I dress modestly I still get glares. Sorry, but I am not going to dress in a burka.

    Comment by Kathy — December 20, 2009 @ 12:05 pm

  35. But I think it takes two to tango, meaning if the woman helped instigate the thought, she is at least partially to blame pending there was a conscious effort put into dressing a certain way.

    This is the same argument people use to justify rape. “She was dressed a certain way so she was just asking for it.” Give me a freaking break.

    I got in trouble at work for dressing immodestly. Which basically meant I showed about a 1/4 inch of my cleavage and some jealous old harpies at work complained. I am a 34 F so unless I wear a potato sack, you’re going to see my very curvy, very in-shape figure. I refuse to dress like a grandma so that these poor men who are victims of their hormones won’t have bad thoughts (I’m a horndog too…I don’t think sexual urges are confined to only men). My supervisor basically told me that a lot of our clientele were coming in because they have sexual issues and if one saw me, got turned on, and rape or molested someone, it would be my fault. Um, wrong. It’s their job not to rape someone no matter what I wear!!! This was told me as we all got a lecture in staff meeting on the dress code. I basically said I was being singled out for having a large chest and a curvy body. Maybe I should go to my bishop and repent for having breasts.

    Men are responsible for their own chastity and their own thoughts. I think it’s completely sexist to characterize all men has being so hormone ridden that they’re unable to control themselves. This basically gives them a license to do whatever they want to women sexually. It doesn’t. This is so obviously a cultural issue to me and not a spiritual issue. I agree with Juniper that our garments are supposed to remind us of the covenants we made in the temple. But I’ve heard more than one person say they’re really about modesty.

    Comment by Risa — December 20, 2009 @ 12:18 pm

  36. I find male construction workers wearing sleeveless tees and toolbelts incredibly sexy as they exhude a manly “can take of me” persona. Should they wear heavy shirts and lug their tools up the ladder by hand to avoid turning me to lustful thoughts? Or should it be on ME to avoid those thoughts?

    I can see the common sense and the reason behind dressing modestly as an honor to yourself and in glory to God. But men need to be responsible for their own thoughts, always.

    Comment by Lianne — December 20, 2009 @ 12:23 pm

  37. #27—-

    I call bulls**t. Jesus taught that if a man looketh on a woman to lust after her he has committed adultery in his heart Yes, but that is the MAN’S problem. I am NOT responsible for your lack of self-discipline. It is exactly this kind of nonsense that leads to blaming, for example, the victims of rape. I don’t recall reading in the words of Jesus Christ himself—never mind that misogynist fool Paul, the actual words of christ—that women were to cover up so that men didn’t find them attractive. He taught discipline of the thoughts.

    I don’t actually teach modesty. I did, however, teach my daughter how to handle a pistol, since obviously (according to you)it was her fault that her shorts and tank tops made my 65 year old neighbor try to fondle her. Not quite……….

    Two major points here: 1: women are just as sexual as men. We think as many sexual thoughts, we derive just as much pleasure, but—and this is an important but—we don’t go drooling over or grabbing at every hot guy we see.
    2: Men, are in general, even or maybe especially, in the church, socialized to believe that women exist for them. This makes thinking of the woman as an object much easier…..

    Comment by fuzzy — December 20, 2009 @ 12:24 pm

  38. I am a 30E so I relate to the clothing purchase issue. I wear two piece bathing suits for this reason. I don’t do dresses but rather business suits where the top and bottom can be accommodated. I have a very conservative dressing style anyway but that is because that is my comfort zone and not because it is someone else’s comfort zone.

    I have never been uncomfortable with women’s dress at church being too revealing. I have seen some that was so frumpy that it was not something I would particularly desire to look at but even that I would not say made me uncomfortable.

    Personally, I thought that the reason someone went to church was to improve their relationship with their Savior. Perhaps if these men focused on that rather than the women’s dress, they may be a little more in touch with the spirit and less prurient in their thoughts.

    Comment by StillConfused — December 20, 2009 @ 12:36 pm

  39. here’s a short and hopefully relevant excerpt from this year’s Holiday newsletter:

    Sports:

    Tivo is a pretty great invention. With it, we were able to watch lots of the Beijing Olympics. Quite Fun.

    When I was in school, no Intramural girls sports were allowed. The reason given was because it was believed that seeing girls running around on a basket ball court (even in our ever so modest gym suits)
    might attract inappropriate prurient interest by male spectators.
    So to protect boys and men’s virtue, girls were not permitted to
    play competitive sports.

    This year we find that Girls Olympic Beach Volleyball Teams
    are required to play in their bikini undies. The price of recognition
    as an athlete requires wearing clothing that Networks hope might attract prurient interest by male spectators. This is not quite how we envisioned progress on Women’s Rights 37 years after Title 9.

    I was totally not surprised when the Copenhagen Olympic committee gave the 2016 games to Brazil. How could anyone possibly have thought the world would reward us for bringing the global economy to its knees? It’s all good though - I’d hate to be the Country having to host Olympics next after Beijing. What a show.

    I was watching a football game on TV a couple of weeks ago.
    After an outstanding onside kick, the male sports commentator
    praised it by saying “Look at that! He could give Mia Hamm a
    run for her money!”

    I was so proud. Now THAT’S what I’m talkin’ about.

    Comment by Betty Jo — December 20, 2009 @ 12:45 pm

  40. It made it clear to me, in a way I hadn’t fully understood before, that modesty is less about morality than it is about women being asked to dress for the comfort of men.

    I personally don’t see modesty as an indicator of morality at all.

    In my feminist view, when the rules of what is modest and what is not modest and the justifications for those rules come from a patriarchy, I see modesty as a form of social control. Specifically the control of how women ought to relate to their bodies and to human sexuality… ie, that a woman’s body and her sexuality is not her own; they will be defined and regulated by patriarchy.

    Comment by barmy stoat — December 20, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

  41. Mike, you need to take responsibility for your own thoughts. It doesn’t matter what a woman wears, if some disgusting man has it in his head to be turned on he will be. For example, I got off the bus Tuesday, walked a few blocks and was harassed by a man asking for a blow job. What was I wearing? Two fleece jackets and a pair of baggy jeans. Excuse me for being a woman
    barmy stoat–amen!

    Comment by Aleisha — December 20, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

  42. Part of the problem is that modesty is a much more complex issue than most people choose to think. If a SP emphasized how all members of the stake should be more moderate, decent, and tasteful in their behavior and dress, I’d think that was terrific and probably feel inspired to do better. Pointing fingers rarely inspires me to do anything. What’s tricky about modesty to me is that it’s a lot more about how the behavior/clothes makes the person who is behaving/wearing them feel and act. Teaching modesty is so difficult because, while there are clearly (hopefully?) several items we would agree would be completely inappropriate to wear both in and outside of church, there are innumerable items that would merely be a matter of personal or cultural preference. That makes blanket statements such as all two piece bathing suits are evil (how many times have I heard this? Long live the tankini!) impossible.
    Btw, I hate the word boobs.

    Comment by Lupita — December 20, 2009 @ 1:12 pm

  43. If the primitive guys who run naked in the jungle or on the islands can control their “animalistic” natures while being around countless topless women, than surely more civilized men should be able to control themselves better. what was it…

    guys are basically hornballs (aka natural man)

    seems to me the “natural man” is relatively unfazed by boobies.

    Comment by ..just call me cassandra — December 20, 2009 @ 1:20 pm

  44. Re. #27 -

    I’m joining in calling BS. If you see a woman in a skirt with beautiful legs, you are responsible for how you think of her. Maybe you need to stop thinking of women’s bodies in a hyper-sexual way, and then you wouldn’t have this problem at the mere sight of something as natural as two large breast being pushed together.

    I can’t believe you quoted the Savior in your defense. If a man lusts after a woman, HE has committed adultery in his heart. The sin is not on her. What, after all, is the problem here? The actual “sin” is the man’s lustful thoughts. These thoughts can lead to bigger problems. And if you are going to be the one causing harm, then you should be the one confined. Stay in your house if you don’t want to get turned on by seeing women. Wear blinders around your eyes. That is no more impractical than expecting a woman to constrict herself unnaturally and live a restricted lifestyle to spare you from your hormones.

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 20, 2009 @ 1:21 pm

  45. ps boobies are pretty. i lie to look at boobies. and yet for all of their allure I manage to control myself and not touch them uninvited. amazing.

    Comment by ..just call me cassandra — December 20, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

  46. sorry I am nursing with my male thought and action controling breasts right now ( who wants to rape me?) so my typing stinks.

    Comment by ..just call me cassandra — December 20, 2009 @ 1:28 pm

  47. #27 -
    (most) men find women attractive. It’s always been that way and it always will be, regardless of what they are/are not wearing. Deal with it!!!!!

    Comment by Mike nz — December 20, 2009 @ 1:37 pm

  48. Sorry my comment was directed at #28 not #27

    Comment by Mike nz — December 20, 2009 @ 1:43 pm

  49. Also, just a note about dress at church.

    There is no reason women have to wear dresses. I wear dress pants the whole winter long, and dresses or skirts only when I am in the mood for it.

    Also, I absolutely cringe at how much we care about “appearance” at church. I cannot believe people are criticized for wearing clothing that is unironed or casual when they are worshipping their Lord. Whited sepulchres, anyone?

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 20, 2009 @ 2:03 pm

  50. For all men who can’t control their thoughts, I suggest Matt 19:12.

    Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — December 20, 2009 @ 2:46 pm

  51. Anastacia, are you having the dress altered at the request of the bride? ‘Cause otherwise I’d say wear it as it is. It’s not immodest.

    Comment by Mytha — December 20, 2009 @ 3:14 pm

  52. I agree that it most certainly is not a woman’s fault for how a man thinks about her, no matter what she is wearing. But if the issue is so cut and dried, why do bedrooms, bathrooms, restrooms, locker rooms, etc have doors?

    Is there any reason why people should not wear swimwear to work? to school? to church? If there is, isn’t this just a dispute about (roughly) where to draw the line, i.e. that so and so’s idea of modesty is too strict but mine is reasonable and hers is not?

    It sounds like there is a lot to be said for loosening what is considered “modest” in some cases and some circumstances, but the idea of dispensing with with the idea completely doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

    Comment by Mark D. — December 20, 2009 @ 4:02 pm

  53. I to have been endowed with the feminine boob problem. I decided at the age about 30 as well that I enjoyed being a woman and we do have boobs. Why should we have to hide that fact? I wore garments until last year. Covering the cleavage has been very difficult as my boobs sit higher on my body than most. i have a shorter torso, higher positioned boobs and long (my best feature) lean legs. I have cleavage that ALWAYS shows. Unless I wore a button up to the neck or a turtle neck, cleavage shows. I use to sit in sacrament meeting feeling awkward and trying not to let it show as the sacrament passed before me by he deacons. But I decided I like being a woman, I always have and I like to be feminine and I like pretty clothes. So I chose another path less acceptable by the priesthood holders and I carry this thought…” I have boobs, get over it” It is not our job in life to fix everything for men. They are people too. Men can show some restraint and reign in on their desires. Their issues are not mine to try to solve. I choose to let them take care of it themselves. I am living my life for me.

    Comment by Melanie — December 20, 2009 @ 4:10 pm

  54. #40 YOU ARE MY HERO! I love the points you made!

    Comment by Sara — December 20, 2009 @ 4:21 pm

  55. There are many problems unique to women that haven’t received the attention they deserve. For whatever reason some men have not chosen to think about it, not known or figured, “that’s their issue”.

    Clothes effect us. They change how we act, and how others act around us. There is a reason why you don’t go to a job interview in flip flops and cut offs. It’s not patriarchy or body shame…it’s respect. Some people do take it to extreme in those areas absolutely-but we don’t need to overreact right back.

    I not saying stress about it, and I’m certainly not saying men shoudln’t control their thoughts, but is it really so crazy to think before you dress? Think, will this help me and those around me focus on the task at hand, or will it invite them to focus on my body?

    What about the YW who wears short skirts and sits in such a way that her underwear shows-woman power-it’s HER body!, any man having thoughts is a pig? If a woman is dressed provocaively she is absolutely responsible for the first thoughts. It does not mean she’s responsible for the idiot man who won’t control his thoughts, but really, can’t my hsuband walk through church without seeing underwear? I know I don’t want to see it on a guy!-with the low ride pants that some people still insist on wearing.

    Comment by britt — December 20, 2009 @ 4:31 pm

  56. We’re having a similar issue in our ward right now–one of the RS counselors is very well endowed and always shows several inches of cleavage, as well as wearing short skirts that you can see up as she crosses her legs up front every week. As opposed to these comments, I don’t know how men feel about it, but I do know that several women (including visitors) have approached me about how uncomfortable it makes them. Now the RS presidency is sitting in the audience instead of up front, but I don’t know what else to do. I’m afraid she would be terribly offended if someone said something. Ideas?

    Comment by LDS lady — December 20, 2009 @ 5:29 pm

  57. Okay, I will probably catch heck for this, but my problem is not with covering garments (or anything else–I have trouble finding bras small enough). My problem is all the seams garments have and the fact that they don’t fit my body. Does that bother any body else? I’d just like to be comfortable. I would also have a problem with a guy telling the women in a meeting that they need to do better on dressing modestly. Sheesh.

    Comment by wistfulblue — December 20, 2009 @ 5:39 pm

  58. wistfulblue: Yes, I’ve heard of some adult women who’ve had to wear training bras due to being so small.

    Covering the cleavage has been very difficult as my boobs sit higher on my body than most.

    Yes, not every one is “built” (forlack of better word) in identical manner.

    Mike, you need to take responsibility for your own thoughts.

    Aleisha: I agree, it’s just some women want to show it all in public is when I get concerned. I don’t get the “everything must have sleeves” thing at BYU. For me, sleeves are not an issue.

    guys are basically hornballs

    I used the word “horndogs”. And, yes, some women have strong desires as well!

    Vada: My wife often take her bra off when she gets home from work. But, she does wear one in public.

    Comment by Mike H. — December 20, 2009 @ 6:17 pm

  59. i realize i might get hanged for this but this statement -”there is always some corner of the congregation where the brethren on the stand cannot look” - don’t have a problem with it. I don’t think he is saying that the Bishopric isn’t responsible for their own selves/thoughts etc. Which is precisely why they don’t look there. I am a lot more sympathetic to this issue since being married. My husband has a much easier time fighting thoughts he doesn’t want to have when he isn’t looking at cleavage or legs in a short skirt. Are his thoughts still his responsibility, regardless of how a woman is dressed? Of course. But I know that he has an easier time when s/he is dressed modestly. And, for what it’s worth, I find it pretty distracting to see a lot of cleavage and short skirts in church. Is it an issue that I think is worth embarrassing people over? Nah, I think there are discrete ways to do this. But there are several changes I make when I am at church so that others can feel uplifted and can feel like Church is a safe place. I don’t have a problem with that; I worship in a community setting on Sundays…I fail to see what is awful about asking men and women (which I realize wasn’t done) to dress modestly at church.

    Comment by Amanda — December 20, 2009 @ 6:29 pm

  60. Wistful, does it make you feel better to know that the guy saying that stuff in church is probably following the instructions of his wife or of some other sister in the ward? Anyone who thinks that the boys come up with this stuff on their own is living in a fantasy world.

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 20, 2009 @ 6:29 pm

  61. pat the destroyer: Hmm, could some sisters actually be jealous of other sisters in the Ward/Stake? Nah, no one ever gets jealous of anyone in the Church, right? (Said with the highest possible sarcasm). Some married sister find ways to get jealous of single sisters over ANY issue.

    Also, a link to the Wonderwall site’s fashion blunders. Some outfits would fit the LDS idea of being modest, but are still tacky. Others are way too “show it all”:

    http://wonderwall.msn.com/movies/Year-in-Review-Undressed-5102.gallery

    Comment by Mike H. — December 20, 2009 @ 6:48 pm

  62. I think that the modesty issue is an act of partnership, and yet no one is presenting it that way. Most men are visually stimulated and this can and does work work to a woman’s advantage. If we want to bring out the best in each other we each have to alter our behavior slightly. Women never complain when men are chastised in Priesthood to not be angry or to treat us with respect. Shouldn’t we want to help men be their best? Shouldn’t they want the best for us? If I can help a man be at his best by wearing different clothes then I think that is a small price to pay for greatness.

    Comment by Chris — December 20, 2009 @ 6:48 pm

  63. It actually pisses me off more if it was a women that “boobed” (pun intended) to her husband about immodesty. Shielding yourself by using others to do your dirty work is about as low as it gets in my book. If someone has issues with the way I dress they can approach me in a subtle way about it… ie “Do you realize that your underwear is showing?” or “would you like to borrow a safety pin? I noticed your top is a little low” Yes, they may offend me, but most likely not, honestly at least then I know who is being a prude and know to avoid them. If they have issue enough to make their husbands do something about it, they should have issue enough to have to courage to talk to me themselves.

    I HATE how competitive women are with each other.

    Comment by April — December 20, 2009 @ 6:52 pm

  64. I’m having problems trying to parse out what I want to say. We use one word “modesty” to describe the responsibilities we have regarding clothes to ourselves, to our communities, and to God.

    The trouble is that the responsibilities we have towards those different groups often aren’t complimentary. For instance dressing to cover the garment makes us outliers within our communities which is hard on individuals. Depending on one’s body type that hardship can be huge.

    The last thing I want to say is that we are all responsible for our own behavior. Full stop. Men having impure thoughts about scantily clad woman are responsible for themselves. The scantily clad women may be an explanation for the lewd thoughts, but explanations are not the same thing as excuses.

    Comment by Starfoxy — December 20, 2009 @ 6:56 pm

  65. I am just a visitor to this site so forgive the intrusion. However this subject impacts both my wife and daughter. As a father and husband I am repulsed by the concept that somehow a mans (young or old) thoughts are the responsibility of my daughter or my wife.
    God has made each body with a purpose and having its own beauty. A womans dress is not the problem.
    In his book “The Truth About Cheating” Author Gary Newman states, What’s the number one reason men cheat? Ninety-two percent of men said it wasn’t primarily about the sex. “The majority said it was an emotional disconnection”,(G. Newman,The Truth About Cheating, pg 19-20.)
    These findings show that the “physical” aspects of women are not the reason for men straying. The issue is the emotional infidelity that begins long before the man begins looking. It is an emotional disconnection between husband and wife.
    This is what Jesus was talking about when he said “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (Bible kjv, Mathew 5:28). Emotionally he has long been gone.
    To be clear ladies you should be able to wear what you want to wear if you feel you are following the Lord.
    Members who have gone to the temple and wear clothes that cover their garments are doing just what the Lord has asked. No more, no less. Men have their own issues to deal with. If a man (or Woman) insinuates that you are being immodest when you are dressed normal. You may want to suggest they look at their own emotional insecurities and perhaps get a little therapy themselves.

    Comment by DaddyL — December 20, 2009 @ 6:57 pm

  66. I think if she feels comfortable wearing an inch or two of cleavage or a short skirt at church is it really everyone else’s job to critique her and judge her on that. Just don’t look at it, ignore it think kind thoughts about her like we are taught in primary to love one another, no matter how different we are. If she is not being what you consider respectful-tough! It’s her life, its your job to dress yourself in what you deem to be respectful, not police everyone else around you!

    Comment by Sara — December 20, 2009 @ 6:58 pm

  67. The other thing that I would say is that yes, a woman dressing immodestly may make it harder for a man to keep his thoughts appropriate. At the same time someone expounding on politics in Sunday school makes it hard for me to keep my thoughts appropriate.

    I want to say that it’s rude, but that doesn’t seem quite right. I guess it is just part of living in a community. People around us are going to do things that push our buttons, and rub us the wrong way. We all need to be doing our part to make it easier to live together.

    I think it is unfair to women, (and an artifact of the patriarchy) that we are inclined to lay all the responsibility of men’s discomfort at women’s feet. Sure lots of women could do more to be courteous of the men around them by covering up more. But we shouldn’t forget that lots of men could do more to be courteous of the women around them by studiously ignoring how they look.

    Comment by Starfoxy — December 20, 2009 @ 7:16 pm

  68. responding to mike in #61

    First, isn’t just the singles that flash skin to get male attention

    second, it isn’t only the married women that complain about those that would turn our meeting halls into a sexual arms race

    Thirds, the jealousy goes the other way as well, as some jealous single naggards have virtually shut down Mothers day since they can’t stand other naggards have virtually shut down Mothers day since they can’t stand other women getting the attention.

    63, you hate how women compete, but isn’t it even more silly to rail on so called patriarchy over what’s basically a thing between women? Most of you know that when you wear a see thru blouse to church you are kicking sand in other womens faces. Yes its cowaredly and passive agressive for them to get the bishop involved but the other side is playing the same game by pretending this is about male oppression. Maybe it would be a good thing if these sisters could actually deal with each other rather than using male proxies. They use male proxies as spokesmen, you all use them as voodoo dolls for the women who are your actual opponents. Yeah, we’ve come a long way baby

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 20, 2009 @ 7:18 pm

  69. Heidi, you speak like the goddess that you are. Right on, sister.

    Comment by venus — December 20, 2009 @ 7:25 pm

  70. While I personally don’t feel comfortable in very skimpy clothes, this is what I have learned- I have been cat called, leered at, head jerked around to double take, creepily checked out, etc. even when wearing a t-shirt and jeans- I’m not talking tight t-shirts and jeans either, they fit, but not skin tight. Sometimes this has happened in actually, legitimately “frumpy” clothes that are ill fitting and totally unattractive. When I went through a (modest) dresses only phase, you wouldn’t believe how many men would tell me how much hotter it was to see a woman in a dress because of the fantasies of the “ease of access” Ew.

    What I’m getting at it is, there is a certain point where additional modesty does nothing to keep you from being bothered. Basically, if it’s more formfitting than a burka, you’re still going to get checked out, and that level of getting checked out doesn’t really start to increase significantly until you head into really skimpy clothing- tons of cleavage, super short shorts/skirts, etc.

    That’s my real world experiment, backed up by many of my girl friends experiencing the same thing. So all the modesty talk really falls on deaf ears for me. Men really, really need to be taught to not openly stare and gawk at women simply for being WOMEN and being out in public. That’s what annoys me, in my jeans, t-shirt, and converse, when I can’t simply walk through a store without getting intrusive stares : / I can understand doing a double take at a ton of cleavage- hell, I do it- because it stands out, but in general, regardless of what I wear, I feel picked at anyway by the male gaze.

    Comment by Sophia — December 20, 2009 @ 7:25 pm

  71. but the other side is playing the same game by pretending this is about male oppression.

    Umm…… Pretending? Despite the really fun stereotypes, some of us aren’t crazy jealous psychos. I couldn’t care less about how another woman is dressed. If she looks great, good for her. But if I am going to get sidewise glances from other members because I’m wearing dress pants, that bothers me. I don’t think I should have to submit to patriarchal ideas of femininity and submissive dress.

    Seriously. I am not a jealous person, and I have never ever ever felt burned or disliked by a crazy jealous woman. This is such a vicious nasty stereotype. Maybe we overperceive jealousy due to insecurity?

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 20, 2009 @ 7:28 pm

  72. Great post. I think you bring up a lot of the complexities that surround being a “good Mormon woman.”

    Comment by freewomyn — December 20, 2009 @ 7:31 pm

  73. Why is no one discussing the slobby men who come to church with thier shirts that don’t cover thier oversized stomachs or thieir pants that never quite cover thier backsides. I don’t like to look at thier corner of the church either, but I never hear anyone address thier clothing choices. Just saying….

    Comment by cd — December 20, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

  74. Anatasia,

    Do not change the dress. It is fine. If it shows your arms, oh well. Go to a fabric store and by lingerie straps. They are little strips of fabric, ribbon with a snap and a tiny safety pin. Pin it at the seam on the shoulder and it will keep a bra strap from showing and any extra fly away garment wing that may show. I do this with a lot of wide neck shirts, so I don’t have to adjust all day. I have made my own straps and have bought them made at Jo-Anns. They are great. Back in high school I had them installed in my prom dress, way cheaper than buying a new bra for 1 night.

    If someone already had this idea, I didn’t read all before posting this. Sorry.

    Comment by miles — December 20, 2009 @ 7:39 pm

  75. Anatasia,
    Unless you have garments to worry about, I wound not add sleeves to the dress. It is beautiful and on of the most modest bridesmaids dresses I have seen in a long time, thank heavens it isn’t strapless!

    Comment by cd — December 20, 2009 @ 7:48 pm

  76. Natalie, I don’t think anyone sounds more secure or less stereotype-driven when she says that Darth Vader the oppressive patriarch is forcing her to wear a dress and to cover her boobies.

    And these ’sidelong glances’ you get … I can’t help notice that you covered up whether women are among those so oppressing you by how they look at you. If so, then aren’t you using the word ‘patriarchy’ to put the feelings of other women under erasure?

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 20, 2009 @ 8:34 pm

  77. And to anyone who uses th sermon on the mount to condemn males for getting distracted by cleavage, the same sermon and logic says that we have all committed +murder+ in our hearts through anger.

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 20, 2009 @ 8:45 pm

  78. Thanks for all of the thoughtful comments. I am a longtime lurker on fMh and I’m really excited to have the opportunity to participate on the site.

    A couple of thoughts:

    One of the things I dislike so much about the way the modesty discussion is framed in church is that it is so reductive. It reduces men to their basest urges (horndogs that can’t control themselves) and women to their bodies. For me, this message is the same as the overly sexualized message the world sends — my value as a woman is tied up in my appearance. I agree that there are dress codes that one must follow in life and I don’t object to that (i.e. bathing suits to work), but I do object when outward appearance becomes overly tied up in assumptions about morality or sexual purity. I have faith that men are capable of controlling themselves and I have faith that women are capable of making reasonable, respectful choices when left to using their best judgment. I think the antidote is not endlessly parsing out what is acceptable (because the answer will always be somewhat arbitrary) or shaming a woman who shows up to church in a skirt that is “too short,” (remember that anywhere from 1/2 to 2/3 of the women in most wards hasn’t even come to church) but in encouraging women to look at themselves as whole people. I think we work from the inside out, helping women see that appearance is just one part of who they are.

    Comment by Heidi — December 20, 2009 @ 8:51 pm

  79. Actually, Pat, most of the glances I receive do come from men, particularly the ones I worked most closely with, like the YM pres when I was YW pres. Also, notably, from several of the YW.

    Is it really hard to believe that I actually have very healthy, happy, meaningful relationships with other adult women? I do with men as well, but I hate this attitude that women can’t be friends with each other because they’re too busy trying to stab each other in the back or up each others’ accomplishments.

    In short, my jealousy of others, or my perception of their jealousy of me, absolutely does not influence the way I dress.

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 20, 2009 @ 8:52 pm

  80. but in encouraging women to look at themselves as whole people. I think we work from the inside out, helping women see that appearance is just one part of who they are.

    Beautiful Heidi. Exactly. There’s is SO much more we could talk about, and so many more important topics, than whether or not a woman is sufficiently covering up her body.

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 20, 2009 @ 8:54 pm

  81. #43, my grandma was a centerfold for national geographic. and trust me, jungle boobs SAG. A thought experiment, go to the jungle and take off your top support and protection, and see just as well those savage men behave then.

    But seriously, was anyone actuaqlly saying that modesty rules were designed to prevent preistood holders from losing control and groping undercovered boobies? That sounds like a straw boob argument.

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 20, 2009 @ 9:00 pm

  82. Thqank you for admitting that women are among those eho give you those so called patriarchal glances, Natalie.

    Is it really hard to believe that I actually have very healthy, happy, meaningfu relationships with other adult women?

    No, was that supposed to respond to anything I said?

    ‘I hate this attitude that women can’t be friends with each other because they’re too busy trying to stab each other in the back or up each others’ accomplishments In short, my jealousy of others, or my perception of their jealousy of me”

    Who said we can’t be friends with each other? On the contrary, some women prerserve their friendships with other women by using men as proxies for disagreements. Other think that’s cowardly and take a more direct approch, and get punished for it.

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 20, 2009 @ 9:13 pm

  83. “In every ward I visit, there is always some corner of the congregation where the brethren on the stand cannot look. And, this is not the young women – these are the adult women!”

    Then all the men who heard about this talk asked, “Which wards???” And male attendance in those wards increased threefold.

    Comment by Allison — December 20, 2009 @ 9:45 pm

  84. Personally, I wish there wasn’t so much focus on modesty. I think it might be easier for men who get excited about what a woman is wearing to just think, “Wow, she’s got a nice body” (or “I want that,” as someone said) and just move on, instead of thinking “Wow, she’s dressed so immodestly,” which leads to “She’s trying to seduce me! She’s evil and sinful! She doesn’t respect God! She’s using her body to get attention!” etc. I think this kind of thinking not only places the responsibility entirely on women, but also makes it easy for men (and other women) to start judging/hating women for it.

    Comment by J-town — December 20, 2009 @ 10:24 pm

  85. 83 LOL. And then the SP issued a retraction/special thank you to these same women who exponentially boosted sacrament attendance! What a happy ending.

    Like Natalie K., I find it irritating to insinuate that this is really about catty women. Whether someone is trying to attract undue attention to themselves at a worship service is a question only they can answer, imo.

    Fwiw, I once had a visiting teaching companion who, on several occasions now that I think about it, would come up to me during church and tuck something in, clucking a bit in concern. It used to annoy me greatly. I consciously try to make everything I buy garment-friendly but, in real life, I’m in constant motion, esp. at church with four boys. I don’t feel like I need to apologize for it and I’m not going to wear a jumpsuit to entirely prevent it.

    Comment by Lupita — December 20, 2009 @ 10:41 pm

  86. Lupita, skip the jumpsuit and just go with a burqa. Hides EVERYTHING, and you don’t even have to fuss with your hair. ;)

    Comment by Lorian — December 20, 2009 @ 10:47 pm

  87. Most of the time I find it is insecure and jealous women who are far more offended by immodesty.
    Get over yourself, dear. I am fat, dress nicely, and applaud your freedom to dress in a way that makes you feel confident, beautiful and strong. If you indeed have a great figure, I will probably recognize that fact and admire it. But really, your figure is not that important to me. You are no threat to me at all.

    I loved this post. What seems obvious to me is that the author is actually NOT done with modesty - she’s just done letting others decide what it is for her.

    Women have breasts. Even covered entirely, they are still breasts. It is not immodest to have breasts.

    Comment by Ann — December 20, 2009 @ 10:49 pm

  88. j-town. according to my husband it’s more of an “agggh boobs” or “shock underwear” there isn’t this judgemental mental conversation, it’s much simpler than that. It’s more of a stimulus response, then he chooses what to do from there.

    Our actions effect others…that is what gives us power to love and hurt others. We either take responsibility for that or we don’t….

    AGAIN that doesn’t justify judging others for where they are, what they are used to doing and what they really need to work on. But it also doesn’t mean we can justify our own behavior by saying others should get over it.

    Comment by britt — December 20, 2009 @ 10:50 pm

  89. Look, women can’t have it both ways. Women dress to “show it off” in order to evoke certain emotions in men. It’s no secret that men are more pliable, more apt to help, give more attention, and can be influenced when a women presents her self in certain ways. Of course sometimes women do not realize they are doing that, but after the age of about 13, I think most women understand how it works. So women cannot on the one hand dress or behave in a way to evoke certain emotions in men and at the same time say the men are responsible for their own thought…when the women are trying to evoke those same emotions.

    Now, some women will argue that they are not trying to evoke any feelings in any one, that they are just dressing and behaving their natural selves. But I think we all know that everyone likes to be attractive and likes to be liked. All we all know that women have ways to being liked by men that doesn’t work the other way.

    Comment by Pat — December 20, 2009 @ 10:54 pm

  90. Actually, I disagree, #89. Women are punished by society for not dressing in a manner which displays more skin than men are required to display. Even “modest” women’s clothing typically displays skin of the neck and chest, legs and arms, which are not typically displayed by men’s “dress wear.” Women who wear clothing which entirely covers the legs, arms and chest at all times are often treated more poorly in work and even social environments, including at church. Such clothing is branded “mannish” and “unfeminine,” and makes them “read” as “too assertive,” socially non-compliant and threatening.

    “Dress for success,” for women, includes showing legs, and, if not cleavage, at least a significant amount of neck/chest/shoulder. And there are very few styles available for women outside of homemade clothing and sportswear which do NOT display these areas.

    Comment by Lorian — December 20, 2009 @ 11:09 pm

  91. britt-

    “Agggh boobs.” Hee hee.

    I didn’t mean to imply that we should “justify our own behavior by saying others should just get over it” per say; however, I think if people are getting bent out of shape over an inch of sleeve or a half-inch of cleavage that’s really hard to cover up (I too am in the frustratingly big boob camp),that, well, they *should* just get over it.

    Comment by J-town — December 20, 2009 @ 11:12 pm

  92. Wow, Pat, could you be any more sexist? I don’t dress immodestly, despite the objections of a few, to gains men’s attention (the attention of my husband is quite sufficient). I dress to cover my garments, and in a nice way to make myself feel good about myself. Because of my figure, I’m going to get attention no matter how I dress, unless I wear a Burqa or potato sack. This culture demands that women be physically attractive to men, but not too physically attractive or we’re called immodest (or worse, sluts) and we’re the ones to blame. And then we have twits coming on this site chiding us and saying we’re deliberating attracting the attention just so we can complain about it later.

    Comment by Risa — December 20, 2009 @ 11:14 pm

  93. #89

    Women dress to “show it off” in order to evoke certain emotions in men.

    See, this is where you are wrong. Some women do dress to “show it off” but just as many women dress to look good for themselves or even for comfort/function.

    For instance, I think it is fair to say that most women choose clothes that accentuate their best body assets. Is this to evoke sexual and other emotions in men? Not necessarily. Often, for me, it is about me attempting loving my (very imperfect) body that God gave to me by paying attention to the parts *I* like.

    Instance #2. From my nursing days, I have several wrap top or fairly low (but still covering garment) dresses. I had a baby that couldn’t STAND not seeing me when nursing from pretty much day one. At home, we often went for the most easy access route of wearing little to nothing. But I recognize that when I leave my home, I must wear clothes. For us, the easiest way to nurse in public was to pull down rather than up; I did so while trying to modestly shield the breast as we got situated. Do these tops/dresses show a little cleavage, even with a cami (that had to be fairly loose in order to facilitate nursing)? Sure. But when I put those dresses on, it sure as hell wasn’t because I was trying to evoke emotions in men.

    Comment by Nicole — December 20, 2009 @ 11:19 pm

  94. I view this from a costumer’s angle. Everytime we dress we are costuming ourselves. What is that costume saying about ourselves? What will the audience read in to our clothing choices for the day?

    Does what we wear on the outside match our behaviors, thoughts and actions? Do they match our hearts? Do we need to change how we dress to radiate who we really are?

    Will our costume help us play our chosen roles better?

    Comment by Round Belly — December 20, 2009 @ 11:30 pm

  95. Lorian, at the risk of sounding like a nut job, there’s something strangely appealing about the burqa to me. No disrespect intended to those who choose to wear it but I like the uniformish aspect and not doing my hair for the rest of my life or trying to be remotely fashionable would be a dream come true :) Of course, being forced to wear it is an entirely different story…

    Comment by Lupita — December 20, 2009 @ 11:32 pm

  96. Lupita
    If you goggle “burga fashions”, you’ll find it won’t be your dream come true.

    Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — December 20, 2009 @ 11:40 pm

  97. I feel sorry for the women with AA cup breasts

    Mike, this really bothers me. There’s nothing wrong with an AA chest. There are lots of benefits of a small chest. The only down side is being told over and over again that I ought to want more. Some of us are happy with what we have, and are irritated that anyone would feel sorry for us.

    Comment by Alliegator — December 20, 2009 @ 11:59 pm

  98. *ahem* Women in burqas get raped too. And then stoned/burned/beaten/acidified/killed for it being “their fault”.

    As to the large-breasted trying to find clothes, I have that problem too. I was a bit bewildered by it until I read an article that explained that ready-to-wear clothing is designed for a B cup chest…So, I’ve gotten comfortable with stretched-out t-shirts.

    A thing that really gets me, though, is that if you’re large-breasted and shapely AND wear something that is not tight, but properly fitted, you’re still going to get those disapproving and/or inappropriate looks. If a woman with an A/B chest does the same, no one notices. My bishop’s wife is a gym instructor and she looks !fabulous! All of her clothes are well-fitted, but never “inappropriate” as per our LDS cultural standards. I use her as my gauge for how I dress with my larger…assets. Things are just more…noticeable on me…

    Comment by ErinAnn — December 21, 2009 @ 12:03 am

  99. #60 Well, regardless of who is thinking it up, I don’t think it is appropriate for a mixed congregation type meeting. I would think if someone felt strongly enough about it, it would be more appropriate being addressed in a YW or relief society meeting. And I still probably wouldn’t like it much.

    Comment by wistfulblue — December 21, 2009 @ 12:19 am

  100. Lupita (#95), I know exactly what you mean. If it weren’t for the cultural implications, I’d probably wear a hijab (headscarf) just because I think they are beautiful, and maybe even an entire chador, because I think they are graceful and “easy” (from a fashion/hair-do perspective). But the fact that they carry cultural implications of oppression for women makes them sadly unappealing.

    Alliegator (#97), yes, yes, yes! I grew up large-breasted (DD by high school, and ultimately an “I” cup after having my twins), and a few years ago I had a breast reduction to about a “B” cup. I couldn’t be happier. I lived my entire life with men oggling me at every turn; bosses who couldn’t look me in the eye because they were too busy staring at my breasts while I tried to have businesslike conversations with them; rude construction workers making lewd remarks at me every time I walked by; men who seemed to feel that my breasts were or should be their personal property, to stare at or even to touch. The weight of them gave me neck and back problems and headaches. I couldn’t buy clothing to fit me, since my bust-size made my upper half several sizes larger than my lower half. EVERYTHING other than flannel shirts looked obscene on me. Shirts which would be modest on a woman with smaller breasts looked like racy, sex-kitten styles on me.

    What a relief when I could finally get my insurance to pay to have them “chopped off” (though not before I had to have three vertebrae fused in my neck from the strain of my breasts causing disk bulges in my cervical spine).

    Men who think women are “strutting our stuff” for them just because we HAVE “stuff” and cannot hide it, need to wake up and grow up, and start paying attention to their own business and not to our bodies.

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 12:28 am

  101. Wow! I agree with the general consensus that it is BS that women need to dress in order to control the self-proclaimed feeble-minded male (next they’ll be saying “the devil made me do it because I don’t have agency and only women do!” Which means the whole doctrine of the church being based in free-agency is false- i.e. men followed Satan and cannot be responsible for their own choices, therefore need to be controlled, and all women followed God and Christ, i.e. are accountable for their choices. Topped with a dollop of nobody’s plan meaning men can blame women for any bad choices.) I am of the opinion that your stake president has some issues HE needs to deal with.

    Also, I often wear pantsuits to church, never had anyone say anything to me about it. And maybe people stared, but I didn’t notice. I do recall as a child though being told by my mother- who was wearing pants on a non-Sunday, to go and drop something off to someone in the chapel for her because she was dressed irrelevantly, whereas I was dressed reverently, i.e. in a skirt. I remember thinking at the time it was stupid, but perhaps there is some weird anti-feminist-must-wear-skirts things going on in some of our subconscious minds?

    And I never knew Utah was the plastic surgery capital of the US… where is the stat to back this up? VERY interesting…

    Comment by spunky — December 21, 2009 @ 12:36 am

  102. And #89 Pat- sorry you missed out on the plan that involved agency, therefore making you less responsible for your choices. The rest of us have agency, so are responsible for where we look and what we think when we are looking there.

    Comment by spunky — December 21, 2009 @ 12:39 am

  103. I think that sometimes women are not aware of how their clothing shifts as the body moves. Standing/sitting upright may be beautiful, but when bending over to pick up a dropped program or whisper to a child may show everything from neck to belly button. As a 34F, it is impossible for me to not show my boobs. I wear clothes that fit, cover my garments, and don’t gap if I bend over. Not everyone has that same opportunity, especially if buying off-the-rack.

    As someone who regularly sits on the stand, there really have been some instances when I really have felt sorry for the bishopric. A little cleavage hasn’t visibly bothered any so far that I’ve noticed. It’s the women in clothing that they are uncomfortable in and are repeatedly adjusting that draws the attention.

    I used to be shy about telling someone if their slip was showing, but then I realized that I would want to be quietly informed if it was me. At a wedding I know I offended an attendant when I stopped the photographer and tucked the bride’s bra strap back into the dress. Hello, I wouldn’t want my special day photos ruined because no one took the initiative to help out.

    Comment by JC — December 21, 2009 @ 12:52 am

  104. “It’s the women in clothing that they are uncomfortable in and are repeatedly adjusting that draws the attention.”

    Ah, sounds like a skirt and some pantyhose to me.

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 21, 2009 @ 12:57 am

  105. No kidding, Natalie. There are few articles of clothing more uncomfortable or more in need of frequent adjustment than skirts, pantyhose and your average, ordinary, everyday bra.

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:03 am

  106. Mike, this really bothers me.

    Well, some women have complained about it. I guess this is a topic I can’t please everyone on…

    Comment by Mike H. — December 21, 2009 @ 1:10 am

  107. Mike, perhaps the key would be (particularly from a man’s perspective) to sympathize with any woman who is not comfortable with the shape or size of her own body, without making judgments about what type of body is “best.” “Feeling sorry” for a small-breasted woman implies that there is something inherently better about being large-breasted, and, while that might be true from a man’s perspective, and it might be true for some women who may have “bought into” societal dictates about “how women ought to look” and “what is most sexually desirable in a woman’s body,” it is certainly not by any means a universal truth for women.

    I DO feel sorry for a woman who is small-breasted and thinks she NEEDS to have larger breasts in order to be “okay” or “sexy” or “normal” or happier with herself. But I certainly don’t feel sorry for small-breasted women on principle. I spent half my life envying them, and now that I’m one of them, I’m thrilled.

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:19 am

  108. Small breasts are more sensitive to stimulation than large breasts. Don’t feel sorry for us small-breasted women, we have more fun.

    I don’t see what the big deal is with guys liking big boobs. I’m reminded of a line from City of Angels (loose paraphrase): “Her rack is a little small, but all you need is a handful, right?”

    Preach it, Nathaniel Messinger.

    This TMI comment brought to you by Bridget Jack Meyers.

    Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers — December 21, 2009 @ 1:57 am

  109. I have a friend who expressed frustration about this issue, and so I know that it can be really hard, esp for women who are well endowed, to feel like they are unable to dress well w/o criticism, or feeling somehow singled out by counsel about modesty. But I think there is a risk of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and that concerns me, too.

    I think it is unfair to women, (and an artifact of the patriarchy) that we are inclined to lay all the responsibility of men’s discomfort at women’s feet.

    I think it’s really, really important to realize that this is never fully laid at the women’s feet. Talk to the men about how they feel about constantly being talked to about pornography. About keeping themselves clean. They get this kind of counsel all. the. time.

    Discussions like this seem to miss that reality, and act as though women are the only ones who get counsel from “the patriarchy.” That is very far from the truth, and as such, I really don’t like modesty being reduced to a patriarchal form of oppression and control. Our female leaders teach this principle, too without apology. And young men and men are not exempt from the counsel about modesty…the garment is a standard for them, too. And again, they are constantly taught about purity of thought, etc.

    I know modesty is not always taught in ways that are respectful or tactful or complete, but that is as much a part of dealing with humans and being part of a community as it is realizing that not everyone around you will dress in the way you think they should.

    Again, I sympathize with women who struggle and try hard to do what they can and feel like it is never enough, but I don’t think that frustration warrants throwing the principle of modesty out the window in general.

    Comment by m&m — December 21, 2009 @ 2:43 am

  110. #87 — Yay! You got what I was saying. I am not, in fact, done with modesty, but I am done with letting others define it for me.

    #94 — I think this captures exactly what the church is thinking, but I don’t want to play a role, I want to be myself. Even more disturbing about your analogue is that while an actor sometimes transcends themself and “becomes” a character, they are still pretending. And, what does a a person with a good heart look like? I know what costume we might put on “good” men in the church — white shirt and tie, dark business suit — but that standard is somewhat arbitrary, it doesn’t mean that a man who isn’t wearing those things doesn’t have a good heart.

    Pat the destroyer — Yes, how dare women be so complicated — wanting to dress in a way that makes them feel comfortable and still be treated with respect? Like I said, I have faith in men. This is not too much to ask. I imagine that most men are exercising this kind of control when they go to the mall, to work, or anywhere outside their own home. This doesn’t break down because they enter a church. And, I shouldn’t need to say this, but I am not advocating that women (including myself) be immodest. I am saying that modesty should be a simple issue that is left up to individual women.

    One more thought, I don’t think it does anyone any good to heap shame upon men for noticing if someone is attractive or sometimes being aroused. I think that some of that is natural, what matters is what they do about it.

    Comment by Heidi — December 21, 2009 @ 3:04 am

  111. #108, ,my husband agrees.:)

    from another small chested woman.

    Comment by Terina — December 21, 2009 @ 4:33 am

  112. (For reference, I’m not, nor have I ever been, LDS, but there’s a similar emphasis on modesty in the mainstream Christian culture, though the community I grew up in is probably more conservative than most.)

    Have you all seen this?: http://www.therebelution.com/modestysurvey/browse This was done a few years ago. They did a survey of young Christian guys to see, in detail, what they do and do not consider a “stumbling block.” For the most part the guys seem to be fairly reasonable, but it bugs me that girls are supposed to cater to these guys’ issues. And where is the similar survey for girls?

    I had an eating disorder as a teenager and because I loathed my body so completely I really embraced the whole modesty thing. I even went beyond my church’s/parents’ standards and refused to wear shorts or short-sleeved shirts or swimsuits or clothing that was at all form-fitting. Instead of concern, people responded to this by praising my spirituality. I was pleased that no one cared and I could hide my body, which I thought was huge, but it also let me hide my dramatic weight loss and then years of weight fluctuation.

    I feel like there is a point where women should avoid a certain level of immodesty out of respect, but even if a man has lustful thoughts about the most immodestly and provocatively dressed woman, it’s never her fault, per se. Ultimately, a man needs to be responsible for his own thoughts. I also think that we may be hurting men as well as women with all the focus on modesty. We create such very low expectations and little sense of responsibility for men and such a stifling and guilt-filled environment for women.

    Comment by Kate — December 21, 2009 @ 5:09 am

  113. I suppose it’s a pretty general human trait to be fixated on the visible things rather than the meaningful ones.

    Also, I’m thoroughly annoyed with the American middle-class idea of modesty. When I look at cheerleaders and school band girls, I am wondering why all of a sudden it’s okay to wear very revealing clothes, when usually you have to leave everything to imagination.

    Anyhow, my wife’s sexiest dress is a loose-fitting cotton print, that gives just the right hints of what lies beneath. To me, that is; I have no idea what others think, and if someone has a problem with that, I’ll say they need to get a life.

    When I see a woman in church, that has quite obviously rolled up garment sleeves and legs to wear sleeveless shirt and show some thigh, I don’t really get aroused or something. Nor do I think that she’s going apostate. Actually, I just sometimes think that some people need to be in the world more than others.

    Anyhow, for the Church to set a standard the way it’s been done with the garments is a way of drawing a line somewhere. It’s not about inches, it’s about the spirit in which we do things.

    When I was younger, I was more interested in the way women dressed, but helping my three daughters navigate the maze — naturally my wife has done much more — of how to dress I have started to realize it should be everybody’s own business.

    We really need to do better, but it’s in loving our neighbors, even if they are a little different. The ones that Jesus condemned — the only ones — were the Pharisees (and Sadducees).

    Comment by Velska — December 21, 2009 @ 7:34 am

  114. Oh, by the way, my wife is quite a bit overweight by the standard definitions, but I’m very attracted to her, and I realize our relationship is physical, psychological and spiritual. And to be complete, I think it should be all that. And having that I don’t have to pay too much attention to how other women dress…

    Comment by Velska — December 21, 2009 @ 7:37 am

  115. My only comment to this thread would be “don’t assume the stake president is talking about you”. He may be talking about some women or girls in another ward which if you saw how they dressed, you would agree with him. Just saying…. If you are comfortable with how you are dressing and it covers your garments, I wouldn’t worry about it at all.

    Comment by DeeAnn — December 21, 2009 @ 7:48 am

  116. “you need to take responsibility for your own thoughts. It doesn’t matter what a woman wears.”

    I read that above and it reminded me of the common statement, that even Elder Bednar gave a talk on recently, that no one can offend you, you choose to be offended — although perhaps Elder Bednar’s intent and desire was better.

    It doesn’t matter what a woman wears probably isn’t a true statement. It’s very true that you need to talk responsibility for your thoughts.

    So if we could summarize the lessons I’ve learned from reading this…

    Don’t be offended at what a Stake President said, if you feel bothered by it it’s your fault.

    Don’t be offended by what someone is wearing, if you feel bothered by it, it’s your fault.

    Don’t overemphasize the important of dress.

    Don’t pretend that it doesn’t matter what you wear.

    Comment by chris — December 21, 2009 @ 7:57 am

  117. There are lots of issues subtle and large surrounding this topic and often it becomes a disagreement about decisions people have come to individually to deal with personal circumstance. Some of these decisions are right, some are wrong and I think when it comes to men (i am one) supporting and sustaining the women in the church in their efforts we do have to take more responsibility for our side of the issue and women should know that they have our support. Our genetics are telestial at best ( I don’t really know) so that requires great sensitivity and practicality. As a normal man with normal desires most of the time I take pride in feeling genuine respect for a woman’s body regardless of how much I see of it, even if I have to leave; but I leave giving the woman the benefit of the doubt because so much of the time women need that benefit. I find that so often a desire to be immodest with LDS women is a cause of immodesty. I have a sort of maxim that I have come across that captures men’s feelings and responsibility with regard to the tempting scene some women present before our eyes knowing or unknowingly: ” You can’t stop a bird from landing on your head. But you can stop it from making a nest.” We need to help each other bear one another’s burdens appropriately, no matter what the cup size.

    Comment by Phil S. — December 21, 2009 @ 9:47 am

  118. I have to edit my last comment, I meant to say ” so often a desire to be immodest with LDS women is not reason behind their immodesty” Is there any way to edit a posted comment?

    Comment by Phil S. — December 21, 2009 @ 9:51 am

  119. I really like what 112 and 113 had to say.

    Comment by StillConfused — December 21, 2009 @ 10:17 am

  120. I empathize that for many, and possibly most, women the expected Sunday “uniform” of skirts and pantyhose etc. are uncomfortable. What I meant about constant rearranging was not the completely understandable squirming of either uncomfortable clothing (or if you don’t move, you’re going to die of boredom from another talk on modesty), but the every two minutes double fisted hike-up of the shirt/blouse front that has slipped well past ‘cleavage’ and is bordering on nipple exposure.

    We are a worldwide church. All cultures have different views of beauty, but I think the South Pacific sisters have it figured out for comfort. Beautiful piece of cloth made into a loose comfy dress and sandals.

    Comment by JC — December 21, 2009 @ 10:52 am

  121. Muumuus, JC, really?

    Comment by djinn — December 21, 2009 @ 12:13 pm

  122. Phil S. (#117) and Velska (#113 and #114),

    Those are both really sweet comments.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 21, 2009 @ 12:56 pm

  123. Should men be careful not to act or dress in a way so as to inappropriately arouse women?

    If yes, then the author of this post has no case.

    Comment by sam — December 21, 2009 @ 1:06 pm

  124. We need to help each other bear one another’s burdens appropriately, no matter what the cup size.

    I don’t think my visual of this is what was intended.

    Comment by britt — December 21, 2009 @ 1:07 pm

  125. This issue is never going to go away. People are going to look good and people are going to check each other out sometimes. It’s just nature. I think it’s perfectly lovely that so many of us Mormons are beautiful and attractive. We should be happy to have these wonderful bodies that Heavenly Father gave us. Maybe we should all just relax a little and enjoy it.

    On the other hand, there are some women out there (a minority, I expect) who intentionally dress provocatively in order to gain attention or favors from men. This is selfish. By dressing modestly and in good taste, women not only show respect for themselves, but they also show respect for others. And, after all, wouldn’t we prefer to be notied for our brilliant minds and winning personalities anyway?

    Comment by Kevin Owens — December 21, 2009 @ 1:21 pm

  126. Sam- except that men can wear what is considered “normal” clothing without necessarily being accused of “inappropriately arousing women”, women often are made to feel like they have to go to extreme lengths, far beyond what is “normal” clothing. All because men have cleavage issues.

    Comment by Alliegator — December 21, 2009 @ 1:22 pm

  127. I think everyone should get really, really fat, have body parts amputated, and disfigure their facial features in order to be as unattractive as possible, so as not to “cause” anyone else to “stumble.”

    No, really, that’s ridiculous. Each of us is confronted with temptation every day. I am currently eyeing the sugar cookies sitting on my counter that we made for the girls to bring to school for a project. Does that mean that the sugar cookies shouldn’t be there? That my girls shouldn’t be allowed to have treats in the house just so that I won’t be “subjected” to the temptation they may provoke?

    The open highway makes my foot get heavy on the gas pedal of my car. I know it’s wrong to speed, but the car was made with the capability of going over 100 mph and the road is smooth and straight, and it calls to me. Should the road be munched up and filled with potholes, and the car’s ability to go fast limited with some kind of devise which disables the fuel injectors over a certain speed, so that I won’t be subjected to this terrible temptation?

    The person sitting next to me at the cafe has a really HOT laptop. Fast. Great graphics. Gaming capability through the roof. Man, oh man, I’d like to have that laptop. Whoooo-eee. It’s a temptation. Should he keep that laptop inside a sack and not take it out to work on his spreadsheets when he’s in such a public venue? Should he make sure it’s always locked up at home? Darn it. It causes me absolutely LUST!!! I CRAVE it. I NEED it!!! I obsess over it and it’s harming my relationship with God!!! There ought to be a law against him waving that thing around in public! He ought to not do so out of simple consideration for people like me!

    Right? He bears a share of the responsibility for my laptop lust, right? I mean, I’m PARTLY to blame, because I’m entertaining the thoughts, but he’s partly to blame for having the laptop out in public in the first place, right???? Right????????? It’s not ALL my fault, is it?????????? He’s being laptop-immodest. I’m sure he must be. It can’t be ALL my responsibility.

    Um…..or can it?

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:34 pm

  128. I haven’t had time to read through all the comments. I just want to say I don’t care if men think impure thoughts about me as long as they don’t do something gross to me. I don’t think it’s wrong for them to have impure thoughts pass through their minds. In my opinion, they need to just let them pass through, don’t dwell on them, don’t feel guilt about them. I will wear what I want to wear and sometimes I wear things so I look sexy. Like if I’m going on a date. I feel no guilt about this. I am a generally modest person; I wear garments so there’s a lot that is just naturally covered because of that. I just think people think about sex many times throughout the day and they should just deal with it. If you feel guilty about it, you start getting warped and acting out in inappropriate and sometimes dangerous ways. We are all too hung up on this issue…that is why there is a porn problem in our church. If a guy looks once he feels SO guilty and guilt just turns into a vicious circle. If he could just be like “oh, yeah I probably shouldn’t have done that, it isn’t really helpful for me or anyone and God likely doesn’t want me to do it” and move the haitch on, it likely won’t turn into a problem. That’s just me. I think of Christ’s statement against looking at women to lust over them as an injunction not to look at a woman specifically for that purpose. But you know…it happens. And Christ is there to help you out.

    Comment by Minerva — December 21, 2009 @ 1:36 pm

  129. britt #124 - ROFLMBO!

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:36 pm

  130. Kate #112 - I checked out that website. I find it incredibly disturbing that people are investing so much time and effort into deciding what, exactly, women should or should not be allowed to wear. Does my blouse unbuttoned at the throat cause you to stumble? Do my nude-colored pantyhose cause my brother to think impure thoughts? Why is a tankini with shorts “immodest” while a one-piece “tank-style” suit is modest?

    Please. :sigh:

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:39 pm

  131. Pantyhose are the spawn of Satan and the source of yeast infections. Does anyone still wear those evil demons?

    There is no sound more gross than two pantyhose covered legs rubbing against each other.

    Comment by StillConfused — December 21, 2009 @ 1:41 pm

  132. Not me, StillConfused. Yikes. I can’t remember when I last wore a pair of pantyhose.

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:42 pm

  133. Lorian # 127: brilliance. I may print this up to quote from next time someone brings up modesty. I will gladly cite you as the author.

    Comment by dietcokelover — December 21, 2009 @ 1:58 pm

  134. Heidi, I’m sorry you had to listen to such a painful lecture. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Have you thought about sharing your post with the SP? It might not change much, but you never know. You could be the first to enlighten him to a whole new perspective.

    Comment by lache — December 21, 2009 @ 2:15 pm

  135. dietcokelover, you’re more than welcome. :)

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 2:20 pm

  136. I find it interesting that the commandment states, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s ass,” not “Thy neighbor should keep her ass covered at all times with a large horse blanket, and if she fails to do so, your coveting of her ass is partly her fault.”

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 2:27 pm

  137. Bravo to FMH for bringing Heidi on board! Her grace, candor, wit, and artful intelligence will be a boon to an already great blog.

    Well done, Heidi!

    Comment by Matt Thurston — December 21, 2009 @ 2:36 pm

  138. ” You can’t stop a bird from landing on your head. But you can stop it from making a nest.”

    Wonderful idea.

    britt #124: Ah, another classic on fMh! :lol:

    …and the car’s ability to go fast limited with some kind of devise which disables the fuel injectors over a certain speed…

    They already have that on a number of cars. The Buick turbos of ‘84 to ‘87 had a 125mph cutoff built into the computer to prevent stratospheric speeding.

    There is no sound more gross than two pantyhose covered legs rubbing against each other.

    To me, that sound is worse than fingernails on a chalkboard.

    Pantyhose are the spawn of Satan and the source of yeast infections.

    Gee, and I thought poor hygiene while baking caused yeast infections… ;)

    Comment by Mike H. — December 21, 2009 @ 3:29 pm

  139. Pantyhose are the spawn of Satan and the source of yeast infections. Does anyone still wear those evil demons?

    I do because I work for the church and they make me. Which also means I have to wear a dress or skirt. Let me tell you, being allowed to wear dress pants would be a whole lot more modest (and warmer in the winter time…brrr).

    I wanted to address the comment that someone made (sorry I don’t have time to search through numbers) about the men probably being tired of being lectured about porn, just as much as we are tired of being lectured about porn. They should probably start addressing those comments to women, because 1/3 of all porn users are women. Also if you notice, talks about homosexuality and SSA are usually addressed to men. I think the overall attitude of the older generation leaders of the church is that men are sexual and women are asexual (which is not true). I don’t know if it’s the Victorian attitude from whence the church was established, or the 1950s notion that men have sex because they enjoy it and women only tolerate sex to make babies. This is why men always get the sex talk and women always get the modesty talk. Both subjects should be addressed to all members of the church because they apply to all of us, and not just solely to the men or solely to the women.

    Comment by Risa — December 21, 2009 @ 3:54 pm

  140. Sorry, I meant “men probably being tired of being lectured about porn, just as much as we are tired of being lectured about MODESTY.” Sheesh.

    Comment by Risa — December 21, 2009 @ 3:55 pm

  141. No Mike, it’s what you do on the kitchen table after kneading the bread that causes the yeast infections.

    Comment by chris — December 21, 2009 @ 4:12 pm

  142. This is one of the most unintentionally funny threads I have ever seen on here. #124 is just classic. You witty, witty people. Still chuckling…

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 21, 2009 @ 4:22 pm

  143. Thanks for this post! I have had some of these same thoughts lately. I was very frustrated with a priesthood leader recently at our YW in Excellence program. After I presented what I thought was a very successful program about Heavenly Father’s love for each of us, he proceeded to use his “remark” time to talk about modesty…. Totally ruined everything. —Sigh—

    Comment by TaterTot — December 21, 2009 @ 4:37 pm

  144. I might add that his reason for girls being modest was so that they could attract a “good” boy that would never want to look at an immodest girl. You know, because “good” boys aren’t attracted to boobs…. Or something…..

    Comment by TaterTot — December 21, 2009 @ 4:44 pm

  145. Quoting #139: “I wanted to address the comment that someone made (sorry I don’t have time to search through numbers) about the men probably being tired of being lectured about porn,”

    Please forgive the slight threadjack, but it would be nice instead of men being lectured to about porn, that men and women both were lectured (?) to about the deeper issue–what emotional need porn and sex addiction is filling. I worked with sex addicts for awhile, and *porn* is not the problem, *sex addiction* is not the problem. These are *symptoms* of deeper issues. And on a related note, maybe modesty/immodesty could also be seen as symptoms of deeper issues. Maybe bringing up those issues in GC would be more helpful.

    (You know, just in case anyone in church leadership is reading…)

    Maybe bringing up

    Comment by Jennifer Vaughn Breinholt — December 21, 2009 @ 4:53 pm

  146. oops, I meant to delete the last three words of my post–everybody forget what I wrote…

    Comment by Jennifer Vaughn Breinholt — December 21, 2009 @ 4:53 pm

  147. I somewhat agree, but somewhat don’t. I know the women he’s talking about…and its not women who just have “boobs”. Its women who have boobs who wear super low cut tops, and everyone else who wears tops with barely there cap sleeves, super sheer fabrics with no undershirts, and those super tight Shade tees that weren’t really meant to be worn as a top, but as an undershirt, everything covered in BLING and rhinestones and LOOKIT ME, those super clingy, hiphugging tube skirts that are popular right now. Seriously there are sometimes when I cant fathom how they are wearing garments under their clothing.

    There are lots of women in my ward who push the boundries of their dress. And its not just about the men’s “comfort”, its about everyone’s. I don’t like seeing women dressed like that either. It makes me feel uncomfortable, it makes me feel bad about myself, it makes me feel defensive about where my husband’s eyes are wandering (which he really doesn’t, but still). Its just not appropriate for women who have made covenants with God and who wear garments, and in the church building of all places!!!

    And this is coming from one who regularly goes without a garment top when I breastfeed, and who lounges in spaghetti strap tanks at home quite often. I’m no prude about the female body, but there is a difference between dressing provocatively and dressing the body God gave you the best you can.

    I dont see this as a feminine issue. They complain just as much about the men dressing too sloppy for church. Its just different issues for different clothing styles. If it was the 1400s they’d be complaining about the men’s tights being too tight. :P

    Comment by anon — December 21, 2009 @ 4:58 pm

  148. Oh, and dont forget the 4 inch F* me pumps that are being worn by everyone from the women to the Mia Maids. I LOVE fashion, but they just arent appropriate for church. Save them for your Saturday Night date with the husband.

    Comment by anon — December 21, 2009 @ 5:00 pm

  149. Anon 147; and don’t forget about that makeup that women are applying these days. Look like painted harlots. Oh and jewelry, every time a woman wears a strand of pearls, she looks indecent.
    And don’t even get me started on wearing your hair up, or down for that matter, it can show too much neck if up, and is to provocative worn down.
    Leave all that stuff to saturday date night.

    Comment by dietcokelover — December 21, 2009 @ 5:22 pm

  150. I agree dietcokelover,

    We should all wear potato sacks to church. But then someone would show up wearing this.

    Comment by TaterTot — December 21, 2009 @ 5:29 pm

  151. #150 -
    Cute! Where can I get one?

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 21, 2009 @ 6:00 pm

  152. “And its not just about the men’s “comfort”, its about everyone’s. I don’t like seeing women dressed like that either. It makes me feel uncomfortable, it makes me feel bad about myself, it makes me feel defensive about where my husband’s eyes are wandering .”

    I honestly think this is more of an insecurity issue than anything. We can’t put our husbands in a bubble. What they don’t see at church, they’ll see at work, at the grocery store, at the public library apparently (Mike H), etc., etc. There will always be younger, skinnier, bigger-boobed, etc and our husbands will see them. It is his responsibility, and his alone, with where he lets his mind take him after that. And all the worry in the world won’t change that.

    So, give yourself a break and don’t let it make you feel badly about yourself. We’re so much more than what we look like. Besides, you’re husband married you for a reason - I’ll bet he thinks you’re beautiful and probably respects you a lot for not dressing in a way you feel is immodest.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 21, 2009 @ 6:34 pm

  153. Sorry, “your” husband, not “you’re” husband. Grrrr…

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 21, 2009 @ 6:44 pm

  154. Risa (#139) Do you really have to? Is it in an HR description of workplace attire/uniform? Just curious.

    Comment by ErinAnn — December 21, 2009 @ 6:47 pm

  155. Sorry, anon (#148), but I like my 4″ heels and I do wear them to church. They are dressy and look nice. And on occasion, a few of us ladies will decide a particular Sunday is a “red heel” day (color is not important, just that they are fun and cute and usually high). It has become something fun that we do together - especially us tall ladies.

    Comment by that1girl — December 21, 2009 @ 6:48 pm

  156. The stake president should change the men on the stand, then, and maybe should look at changing himself, too. What’s the bishopric doing “scanning” the crowd, they should be occupied preparing for sacrament meeting, contrite hearts and all that. The time for checking out who’s attending and who’s not should be at the door greeting people, and then if there’s cleavage there, then I say compliments should be dished out liberally on the order of “Sis. L, you look beautiful today.”

    Comment by Kevinr — December 21, 2009 @ 7:32 pm

  157. 155…well, I think tall heels are fun and cute, too, and I have my own red heels that I wear to church. I LOVE shoes and have a bazillion of them, but some aren’t appropriate for church imo. It sends the wrong message. Which is, ahem, Come F* me. I think women are smart enough to figure out where the line is between that and “attractive” or “fashionable”.

    I am NOT talking about women who are simply dressed better or are prettier than I am, or are dressing attractively. I am talking about women who are dressing to incite arousal, like they just walked out of the Playboy mansion. Why act like the image doesn’t exist? I never said women can’t dress in fashionable, pretty clothes, but some simply do not bring the right spirit into a church meeting. I would wear some outfits going out with my husband, but certainly would not wear in the chapel to lead the primary kids in their program.

    I think its silly that some women insist they have the right to wear anything and it shouldnt be construed as “sexual” by anyone. I’m sorry, if you are wearing a bedazzled, skin tight corset dress, fishnets, and 4 in heels, you shouldn’t be surprised when people look at you in a sexual manner.

    Comment by anon — December 21, 2009 @ 7:33 pm

  158. Wow. I didn’t realize my 4″ heels came with a bedazzled, skin tight corset dress.

    And fwiw, most men look uncomfortable or surprised when I wear my big heels because I’m 6′ tall barefoot and heels make me tower over most of them.

    Comment by that1girl — December 21, 2009 @ 7:41 pm

  159. that1girl, i’m in the same boat. and i love wearing my heels like that to church. even when i wear two inch heels, they are surprised. heaven forbid a woman be taller and more intimidating than they are.

    Comment by Terina — December 21, 2009 @ 7:51 pm

  160. Nothing like artificial dichotomy to spur conversation. Yep, you can’t wear high heels past a certain point or else you look like a ho. Every time. No exceptions. :eyeroll:

    With obvious exceptions no rational person would try to defend as modest (ahem, corsets) you can make anything appropriate, depending on what you surround it with. I wear fishnets to church, but I wear them under a longer skirt, or in a color besides black, or with a chunky boot.

    I wear shoes that scrape the sky on a regular basis, and unless I carry myself like I want someone to Come F* Me, I really can’t imagine how they can be immodest on their own.

    Comment by Reese Dixon — December 21, 2009 @ 7:52 pm

  161. The potato sack dress link disappeared, so as a public service for anyone who’s disappointed they didn’t get to see it, here’s another:

    http://marilynmonroepages.com/images/color%20potato.jpg

    :P

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 8:04 pm

  162. It’s uncanny how FMH posts seem to mirror my life. I actually used the words “self-loathing” as I looked at myself in the mirror yesterday morning (the day this was posted).

    I have similar problems as others posted: large chest for my frame, short torso and wide hips. As a teenager, my mother taught me to wear large shirts so they wouldn’t be tight. As an adult, I discovered that if I bought medium shirts, they would fit my shoulders and be just a bit tight over the chest. I rarely ever find something that works perfectly. When I purchase dresses, they are generally a bit large in the shoulders.

    But, add pregnancy after pregnanct to that, and yikes! I would say that I’ve spent most of the last 10 years in tight clothes - not out of choice but because I couldn’t afford to actually have a wardrobe for every different size as I go up and down and up and down. Nursing creates massively huge boobs (like from a size C to EE) That definitely hurts the proportion even more, particularly when combined with extra fat on the belly to lose. My skirts have all gotten shorter thanks to a few extra inches around my waist.

    Another issue noone brought up is hand-me-downs. Most all of my life, I have only worn hand-me-downs (for which I am grateful). This means that very few of my clothes have fit perfectly. Most have just been “good enough”. Perhaps an inch or two short or an inch or two low cut or a tad bit tight or a tad bit too big. But, they were clothes that I didn’t have to use hard-earned dollars to pay for.

    Now that noone gives me clothes anymore (and I don’t necessarily need people to now) and that my weight is so up and down with childbearing, I just don’t have many clothes. In fact, I spent 3 hours of precious holiday time at Kohls trying on clothes on Saturday because I only had one pair of pants that fit. I’ve been wearing jammies and sweats at home and putting that one pair on to leave the house (I don’t get out much, obviously). Since we’re leaving to see family for Christmas, I needed a few more things to wear. There comes a point where I just have to accept my fatness and get clothes to fit (if I can). I look better and thinner that way.

    Honestly, I really don’t even notice what other people wear to church anymore unless they look exceptionally good. Then I compliment them.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 8:20 pm

  163. I don’t think heels look innately trampy or sleezy. But they do look uncomfortable as all get out. I still am mystified as to why any woman would voluntarily choose to wear something so awkward, and something which (as I understand it) are bad for your knees and feet. I can’t find any historical evidence to support this, but I’ve always suspected they originated as a patriarchal status symbol like Asian foot binding and extremely long fingernails: They show that the husband is so well-off that his wife doesn’t need to do practical or productive work, and can thus afford to wear things that impede productive work. Why go in for that?

    Comment by Derek — December 21, 2009 @ 8:31 pm

  164. It is his responsibility, and his alone, with where he lets his mind take him after that. And all the worry in the world won’t change that.

    Very wise, LL. Yes, it will happen, if you go out at all in the world. I heard about a woman that used to work at one company I was at who always wore short skirts, and no underwear. If she wants to go “comabt”, then do it at home. HR had to say something, due to the distraction & possible offense.

    If I was the school teacher of that bra-less teen at the Public Library, I would send her to the office for that!

    Lorian: Thanks for that fixed link. I think. ;)

    There also a couple of good Calvin Grondahl cartoons about this subject.

    Comment by Mike H. — December 21, 2009 @ 8:43 pm

  165. Note to self:
    Remember to teach the boys that one day they will look at a girl and become sexually aroused. This will happen earlier than Mom expects and will happen more often than the boys expect. It is not a bad thing or a shameful thing to be sexually aroused. That’s what means you are a human being.

    You do, though, have a responsibility, as a human being, to act modestly - no matter what everyone else around you is doing or wearing. This means don’t stand around gaping like a codfish, don’t whistle or make rude remarks, do look her in the eyes, do feel free to walk away or remember that all mammals are hairy milk-givers.

    Do tell your friends who would make “locker room” comments about girls (and especially about the way girls dress) that such comments are unacceptable and immodest. Perhaps suggest that if they don’t want their sisters or mothers spoken of in that manner, they should not speak of others’ sisters or mothers in that manner.

    P.S. Take some vacations to Europe with the boys so they can learn from example that there is more to modesty than the height (or even existence) of a neckline.

    Comment by LRC — December 21, 2009 @ 8:47 pm

  166. Over the past few years, I have become extremely confident and happy with who I am. As a result, when I look in the mirror, I don’t notice any of the imperfections that come with age. I also don’t really notice imperfections in others.

    I find that those who complain most about others (appearance etc) are those who are insecure with themselves. Back in the day, I was that way. Now, I honestly don’t notice perceived faults in others because I am so passionate about my journey.

    Comment by StillConfused — December 21, 2009 @ 9:26 pm

  167. LRC #165 - Great post.

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 9:38 pm

  168. Derek #163 - Exactly. High heels are, IMO, even worse than pantyhose from a comfort perspective. In fact, “comfort” and “high heels” can’t go in the same sentence (well, I guess they can, since I just did, but normally, they’ll push each other right off the page or screen). I’d rather poke myself with a needle than wear a pair of high heels.

    Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 9:42 pm

  169. #110, heidi

    Pat the destroyer — Yes, how dare women be so complicated — wanting to dress in a way that makes them feel comfortable and still be treated with respect?

    Please cite and quote the post of mine where you claim i say that any women should not be treated with respect.

    I don’t see how a woman needs to take off her garments and wear a transparent blouse to church to feel ‘comfortable’, Heidi. Its not fair for the bishop to have to talk to her about it, but someone should. Its not too much to ask to have church a place where the sexual arms race cools off.

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 21, 2009 @ 11:50 pm

  170. #154 ErinAnn - yes, it’s actually in the Employee Handbook under the dress code that female employees have to wear skirts or dresses and pantyhose. We can’t wear anything resembling pants, not even those flowy pants. It varies from office to office about the pantyhose issue. In my office, our male supervisors (who have never worn pantyhose, I’m assuming) decided that if a woman’s skirt was mid-calf or lower, pantyhose were optional. If the skirt is shorter than mid-calf (obviously our skirts are knee-length at the shortest) we have to wear pantyhose. I don’t mind so much in the winter. Since I can’t wear pants, a nice thick pair of tights is almost as good. In the summer I do what I want. I always try my best to look professional and modest, despite the unrighteous size of my bosom (which is au naturel).

    Comment by Risa — December 22, 2009 @ 12:33 am

  171. I never said ALL 4 in heels…I said the “come F* me” ones…and that women are smart enough to know the difference. But some knowingly cross it anyway b/c it makes them feel good, sexy, powerful, whatever, and damn anyone else’s feelings or whether or not its appropriate for that venue.

    Whether you like it or not, there are dress codes for certain activities- school, job interviews, sports, swimming, and yes, CHURCH. If you showed up to a job interview in a tracksuit and nikes, people would think you’re a slob. If you show up to church dressed like a sex kitten, people will think of you as such. (and women know full well when they cross the line of pretty/attractive/beautiful to sex kitten) To put it bluntly, the church building is not your personal fashion runway. What looks awesome on Saturday night, doesn’t always translate to the chapel of the Lord.

    It sounds to me like some are a wee bit defensive about their style choices, and frankly, like you know that your heels/corsets/whatever are sexy/hot as hell, and you don’t give a damn who’s getting off on it. More power to you, but IMO its not appropriate decorum in the chapel where we are supposed to be focusing on the gospel. And NO, that doesn’t mean wearing POTATO SACKS. (slippery slope there). Yes, you can dress attractively without sacrificing your womanhood, and saving your inner sex kitten for Saturday Night, too.

    Comment by anon — December 22, 2009 @ 1:04 am

  172. I think that most women who are expressing concerns over modesty aren’t offended at being reprimanded for wearing SEXY clothes to church. I know that my personal experience has been constant blaming, shaming, and guilting over respectful, normal clothing. I have an ample chest for my frame (30G) and have been told that clothes that are fine for other women are immodest on me, because I am curvy. So the same amount of exposed skin, same level of tightness, same length, etc. is inappropriate for me to wear because I have an hourglass shape.

    I’ve also experienced a huge disparity in how men and women are treated in regards to this rule. Men could wear shorts in the summer, women could not. Men could wear swim trunks and have their bellies exposed, women could never even have an inch of belly shown between the 2 pieces of tankini–we were required to wear one piece swimsuits, period.

    I’ve posted this before, but one of my defining modesty moments was in Young Women, where our beloved leader who worked at our school showed us a slideshow of girls in prom dresses. She had chaperoned a dance and taken pictures of students who admired and trusted her as she complimented them. She proceeded to show how their cleavage looked chubby, their arms sagged, their backs were too fat, etc. The moral of the lesson was that the “hot” girls were a temptation if they dressed immodestly and the “not” girls were disgusting if they followed suit–we should then never dress “immodestly”.

    After wrestling with this principle for a long time, I’ve decided that the important part of modesty for me is much more important than a dress code. I strive to live modestly by not representing any part of my person as more important than the whole. If I present my talents, career accomplishments, financial status, or physical appearance as more important than my soul, my self–that is immodesty to me. I believe that someone naked can be modest while someone totally covered can be immodest. As for what I should wear, that is a social construct to me, rather than a spiritual one.

    Comment by meganomega — December 22, 2009 @ 1:43 am

  173. I have been sexually harassed and propositioned my entire life no matter what I was wearing.

    The men who act like pigs don’t do it because of anything women wear. Somebody pointed out that even women who wear Burkah’s are raped. Somebody else mentioned the african women who do not cover their breasts and the men aren’t slathering baboons. In these cultures girls as young as 8 or 9 years old are circumsized and “married” off to adult men. They want them that young to make sure they are still virgins. Now why would they worry about an 8 or 9 year old girl not being a virgin if rape wasn’t a major problem?

    This is an age-old problem that is not going to be fixed by covering up women. Period.

    For the record, my hubby states that he has been routinely lectured during priesthood meetings about modesty, controlling his thoughts, controling his responses to things that trigger “unclean” thoughts, etc. since he was a teenager.

    Comment by twisp — December 22, 2009 @ 1:56 am

  174. As a teenager I was routinely humiliated in front of the other kids at church by being singled out while my clothes were scrutinized, measured, critiqued, etc. by the adults. I wasn’t wearing anything immodest as all of my clothes conformed to my VERY strict parents standards of decency. I had one sister deny me entrance to a stake dance because my skirt was too short. She acted like I had come in dressed as a hooker. Another girl’s mother from a different ward pointed out that my skirt was the same length as at least 75% of the girls who had been admitted to the dance by the same gargoyle … er … chaparone. Only after much hemming and hawing was I reluctantly allowed to go into the dance. It happened once because I was wearing a cap sleeve (that would have covered a garment top). One time the dress sleeve had a sheer fabric over the regular fabric and I was told “sheer sleeves aren’t allowed”. The problem was that I had the body of a 21 year old centerfold by the time I was 14. No matter what I wore it was scrutinized and deemed “slutty”. No matter what I did I was accused of trying to be sexy. I didn’t want the attention and did my best not to do anything that might be sexy. Didn’t matter the accusations were always there. I had a YW teacher spend the entire class period critiquing the way I sat and making me sit in all different kinds of ways in front of the other girls.

    It was a horribly abusive situation. I attracted male attention regardless of what I wore and that branded me as slutty by the adult leaders. Being branded slutty gave the boys around me license to treat me like a piece of meat. Being pushed down on the ground at a ward party and groped or shoved againt a wall in the overflow and groped was used as evidence of my sluttiness which just started the circle over and it became a vicious cycle. Boys at school I didn’t even know claimed to have “scored” with me. I was very nearly raped by a boy who told me that since I had slept with everyone else that I was going to give it up to him too. An older boy slipped into my tent at a ward camp out and begged me for sex. Even though I kicked him out of the tent he told everybody at school he had scored.

    My mother heard the rumors and confronted me. She called me a liar when I denied the accusations. She insisted I get a pelvic exam. Even after she knew I was a virgin her response was, “Well, you don’t get that kind of a reputtion for nothing!”

    This kind of judgemental BS is HARMFUL and not in a ‘hurt my feelings’ kind of way. Having large boobs or long, shapely legs or full pouty lips or shapely backside or tiny waist or any other physical attribute does not have anything to do with morality or modesty. In fact, people who focus on these physical features and have an issue with them are the one’s with modesty, virtue, chastity issues. Get your mind out of the gutter and off my T & A.

    Comment by twisp — December 22, 2009 @ 3:06 am

  175. I’m a little late, but just chiming in on the high heels discussion -

    I am definitely not graceful enough to wear them very often, but I do LOVE dancing in high heels. It gives you just the right angle to sooooo elegantly kick your feet, makes you feel light as air on a hardwood floor, and shapes your body to move just right next to your dance partner’s. It really is sooo much fun. And, very sexy. :) Which is OKAY!!!!

    I just have to walk from the car/bus stop to the dance hall in flip flops. :)

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 3:21 am

  176. #172, meganoma…..

    Brilliant, brilliant. I want to live by your last paragraph. :)

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 3:24 am

  177. the african women who do not cover their breasts and the men aren’t slathering baboons. In these cultures girls as young as 8 or 9 years old are circumsized and “married” off to adult men

    Just for the record, the part of Africa where this happens is one small area in the northeastern section. It would be more appropriate to refer to these women as “some Sudanese women” than as African women. In many parts of Africa, women are sexually liberated and have been as far as oral history can tell. In other parts, they still test the bedsheets for virginal blood. In others, healthy and diverse sexual experiences are encouraged. But all of Africa cannot be condensed into one tragic tale of FGC.

    It’s really a much more civilized place than all of us euros make it out to be.

    / pet peeve rant over…..Sorry, twist, not trying to single you out.

    Actually, your stories in #174 are outrageous. That is so inappropriate. All that time spent tearing you down and using you as an example in front of others……. how many testimonies of Christ could have been built in that same moment? I honestly think that you have every right (and responsibility?) to press charges against leaders who brought about those situations and the creeps who perpetrated them. I can’t imagine the turmoil it must have caused you.

    The overabundance of stories like these just makes me really really grateful that I don’t have to think yet about the issue of raising a daughter in the church (an idea which, at present, makes me shudder).

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 3:32 am

  178. *twisp, not twist. Oy, it’s late. :)

    Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 3:33 am

  179. #162 Thanks, Stephanie. I’m finding my entire wardrobe tight because of weight fluctuations first due to pregnancy and now due to a health issue. My current skirts basically sit at my ribcage and are now too short to cover my garments. The other Sunday I was so close to wearing my one pair of chinos because every skirt I tried seemed tighter than the week before. I was glad that I got sick for a week and lost enough water weight that my biggest skirt fit me by the following Sunday. I’m still in denial about my sizes going up and though I have bought larger pants twice now, so I have a whopping 2 pairs of pants to wear, buying new skirts seems so final. I don’t want to spend the money on clothes that I hope I won’t wear very long.

    To add to the discussion of modesty, I’m a dancer and I’m used to being around people who don’t wear many clothes. I’m sad that we have to cover up so much and that we have to talk about modesty at church. I love admiring people’s healthy bodies and analyzing the way people carry themselves, where they hold their tension, their muscular shape, and how they move. If I’m staring at you, it may be partly because I notice attractiveness, but it’s most likely that I’m looking at your “line”.

    Comment by Eileen — December 22, 2009 @ 3:39 am

  180. Here’s a simple wardrobe item, guaranteed to remedy any and all problems of temptation caused by immodest dress:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owvpRNzoaVU

    There we go, all problems solved! B-)

    Comment by Kaimi — December 22, 2009 @ 4:26 am

  181. #174 — those stories are horrifying. I’m so sorry you went through that. I have never endured that level of scrutiny or abuse and I can only imagine how hard it was for you.

    Your stories and some of the other women’s experiences with baby weight gain or not simply not having many clothes to wear are a good reminder for everyone of the dangers of judging someone’s morality or heart by their outward appearance. How can we really know if someone is intending to be sexy or just trying to look nice? Forgive me anon in comment #171, but one woman’s edgy cool heels might be another woman’s f* me pumps. A young woman who is trying to get into the dance in a tight shirt might be wearing the only shirt she has and, at least, she’s trying to go to the dance.

    As to the sexual arms race, I think the best way to call a ceasefire at church is by treating both men and women with respect and focusing on spiritual things instead of making men (and women) feel ashamed for feelings that are largely natural and controllable and giving women an unreasonable burden for other people’s perceptions.

    Comment by Heidi — December 22, 2009 @ 7:16 am

  182. Heid

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 22, 2009 @ 11:02 am

  183. Anon 171:
    The way I see it with this and everything else, is to worry about myself. I cant worry about what my neighbor is wearing, I cant worry about what they are drinking. I focus on what I think is appropriate based on my interpretation, after thinking and praying then I do it.

    Now if I feel it is okay to wear a corset/heels to church, I would do what I do every week before church. Get dressed and ask my spouse if it is appropriate. However, I really don’t think she would like it. She prefers I wear suits to church. She always picks out the best suit/tie/shirt combinations.

    But you are right about one thing, yes I am defensive over my personal choice, my interpretation of scripture, and my inspiration by the spirit. And I’m also very defensive of yours, so don’t wear heels to church, and neither will I. : )

    Comment by dietcokelover — December 22, 2009 @ 11:08 am

  184. Heidi, a ‘ceasefire’ does not stop an arms race. And church modesty allows many to focus on more spiritual things.

    Yes Loraine, high heeled shoes are evil, tantamount to foot binding. That’s an arms race as well. There should be more nice flats for women. It seems goofy that anyone who says that men and women should be more equal should get so hoy and bothered by the suggestion that they should take a little break from packaging themselves like sex kittens.

    Chadors and hirjabs are standards more restrictive than what men are allowed to wear. In church womens standards are still less restrictive than mens. If you look only to the world to tell you how things should be then the world is your god.

    Comment by pat the destroyer — December 22, 2009 @ 11:13 am

  185. Pat the Destroyer, “A ceasefire does not stop an arms race.”
    Yes I know. I didn’t assume that what goes on at church would eradicate a supposed war between men and women (FWIW, I don’t believe men and women are at war). Arguably, the focus on church modesty (and the judgemental and, at times, hysterical behavior that comes with it) is far more distracting.

    Comment by Heidi — December 22, 2009 @ 11:42 am

  186. Twisp, I just cringed in horror reading your comments. I am so sorry you experienced all those horrible things.

    As a YW leader, I had girls dressing immodestly in both wards. But, I was so glad to see them at church or activities, I wouldn’t dream of singling them out or making a big deal. The year that I was in charge of standards night, our theme was “Have You Received His Image in Your Countenance?”, and we talked about becoming like Christ - not about any of the standards per se (like our clothes), but about learning about and trying to emulate Christ. It was extremely successful, IMO.

    Comment by Stephanie — December 22, 2009 @ 11:43 am

  187. re :174

    What a nightmare, Twisp. I’m so sorry you’ve had to endure that. And to have your own mother seem to blame you for the degrading attention you received! What a betrayal! It goes to show how conventional standards of beauty are as harmful to those who fit those standards as those who don’t. I wonder, have you also had a hard time being acknowledged for your other gifts–skills, learning, etc–because people assume you’re some bimbo getting by on your appearance?

    Our culture is doing a pathetic job of protecting people like you. Obviously, creating superficial standards of modesty aren’t cutting it, nor are lessons teaching young men to whistle a hymn when libidinous thoughts pop up. What can we do better to change the situation?

    Comment by Derek — December 22, 2009 @ 12:54 pm

  188. I am so lost on this issue. I don’t think it ever occured to me one single time what someone was wearing at church.

    I love heels. Growing up with my Dad and brother, I was just such a tomboy until I was much older and heels are just so fun and feminine in my opinion. I agree that they are often uncomfortable and not really practical, but apparel isn’t always about that to me.

    The oddest thing to me has always been the necktie. It is (I hear) also quite uncomfortable and it doesn’t even have any functionality.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 22, 2009 @ 12:58 pm

  189. one woman’s edgy cool heels might be another woman’s f* me pumps

    I so agree! You can’t use your personal definition of what are f* me pumps and project that onto other women. Some women love shoes with big heels and ruffles/straps/sparkly things/bows/whatever it is that makes you think they are f* me pumps and it has nothing to do with men or their inner sex kitten that they should ’save for Saturday night’.

    I, for instance love my six inch bright red peep toes and wear them frequently to church. Do I wear them to show off my inner sex kitten? No, I wear them because I think they are the perfect accessory to my dress and match my purse.

    Comment by Theolina — December 22, 2009 @ 1:02 pm

  190. What can we do better to change the situation?

    This reminds me of your post about the father that disparaged his little girl, Derek.

    How can we change this culturally emphasis on physical beauty in general? I don’t know that it’s even possible…

    Comment by Enna — December 22, 2009 @ 1:11 pm

  191. I am a guy, and I see there have been nearly 200 comments posted before my own, but I will throw it out there anyway because I have never posted on here before and I feel after reading some of the other men’s comments on here that some rebuttal is needed on behalf of those who CAN help what they think. I won’t pretend that all of my thoughts are pure as the driven snow, but I am accountable for them nevertheless and it is no one’s fault but my own. In the end, if my thoughts are “bad” it is because I CHOSE to think that way, and no other excuse or outward influence can be my scapegoat. Jesus taught that it is what comes from within the man that defiles him, not what comes from without. A woman in what may be perceived as a “revealing” ensamble is no excuse and the notion that men “can’t help it” is ridiculous, offensive and inaccurate. A man that says that they can’t help it is simply justifying his own mental insufficiencies.

    Comment by Al — December 22, 2009 @ 1:51 pm

  192. I’m sorry, but as a woman who was always an AA cup but is now a nice full C, small D cup… I paid a pretty penny for my new beautiful boobs and I’m going to dress them in a way that makes me feel and look great! My Garments are covered at all times, but if you are offended by a little bit of cleavage or nice big full boobs under my top, that’s YOUR PROBLEM and NOT MINE!

    Comment by Tressa — December 22, 2009 @ 5:18 pm

  193. #192

    You go, girl!

    http://www.wristbands4awareness.com/product_kab_BoobiesBandPack

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 22, 2009 @ 5:24 pm

  194. But I certainly don’t feel sorry for small-breasted women on principle. I spent half my life envying them, and now that I’m one of them, I’m thrilled.

    This made me laugh. I could say the same exact thing, except swapping out small breasted for LARGE breasted.

    Comment by Tressa — December 22, 2009 @ 5:42 pm

  195. How can we change this culturally emphasis on physical beauty in general? I don’t know that it’s even possible…

    This site seems to have a love for censoring anything I or my colleagues here ever have to say, but I will try to post anyway.

    I hate to say it, but the problem is not the men in every case. The women are as much to blame. Read #192 if you don’t believe me.

    Dressing immodestly in church doesn’t tell me that a woman is easy, it doesn’t give me uncontrollable urges, it doesn’t make me want to take her to bed. It simply tells me she has bad taste and questionable judgment. The same is true if a man were to dress immodestly or perhaps oddly. It is kind of like a train wreck - you just can’t not look.

    The fact is, the culturally based standard of what ‘modest’ means is almost impossible for a man to violate when dressing for Church. It would be simple for most women to do so.

    Vanity is a much bigger problem than immodesty - see #192. If I may genuinely ask Tressa what her intent is in showing off her b00bs? If it is to make you feel great, that is fine. The deeper question is, why does showing them off make you feel great? What exactly does showing them off accomplish? Is it to make men desire you? or other women jealous? I am very serious here. I really would be interested in your answer.

    Comment by Davis — December 22, 2009 @ 5:55 pm

  196. Interesting. You can be rest assured that I dress very modestly at church, and in all aspects of my life *except for the bedroom with my sweet husband.

    I bought boobs because I didnt have any natural ones. Literally, no breast tissue (even though I am a larger woman at 5′4 and 175 lbs) and I had what’s called a tubular defomity of the breasts, and this has always been something I was irrationally (sp?) insecure about. Roll your eyes, call me vain, call me selfish or slutty, do whatever the heck you want, but I did what I wanted to and I feel great about my decision. I look natural and beautiful and I love it!

    As the Primary President in my ward, I promise that I don’t go to church with the intent of having men desire me (hello- I am with the children all day) or have other women be jealous. I love my body. As much as you may ‘feel sorry for me’ or whatever, I didnt love my body when I had non-existant deformed breasts. It’s not showing them off that makes me feel great. I save THAT for the bedroom. It’s being able to properly fit into (what I find to be) stylish clothing and swimming suits that makes me feel great, and that I now have the body of a grown woman rather than zero breasts.

    You can think i’m wrong. I don’t really care what anyone else thinks. Breast augmentation is a very personal choice.

    Comment by Tressa — December 22, 2009 @ 6:25 pm

  197. I used to have very crooked teeth and then, as an adult, overcame my fear of dentists (sort of, lol) and got braces. Is it vain / slutty / insecure of me to want to smile now that doing so enhances the way I look rather than detracts from it?

    Comment by RCH — December 22, 2009 @ 6:39 pm

  198. And I was born with a birthmark on my forehead, and had many surgeries as a child to remove it, which left me with no eyebrow.

    A few years ago, I got an eyebrow tattooed on, and it makes me feel so much happier to not have people constantly staring or asking what happened to me.

    It’s easy to judge when you think you know the person’s story.

    Comment by Alliegator — December 22, 2009 @ 6:49 pm

  199. I think it’s important to remember that it comes down to us being happy, confident, and comfortable in our bodies. Some of us may enhance our confidence in our bodies through exercise, correction, or any other enhancement.

    Like Alliegator said, we shouldn’t judge each other, but delight when a fellow sister is happy (or even happy for a day) in her body.

    Comment by that1girl — December 22, 2009 @ 6:57 pm

  200. plus, what started as modest when i got dressed on Sunday morning can turn into a rumpled, low-cut, leggy get-up once i’m done wrestling 5 kids on my lap through an hour of sacrament meeting. (and apparently all this time my husband on the stand has been on the look-out for boob flashes?)

    Comment by angela michelle — December 22, 2009 @ 9:44 pm

  201. Tressa, I applaud you for doing what is best for you!

    Comment by Risa — December 22, 2009 @ 9:51 pm

  202. #191 - Thanks for your comments. My thoughts are not always as pure as the driven snow either, and I am purely responsible for them. It is not the good-looking repairman’s fault for being attractive that I have “inappropriate” thoughts about him. Those are my own fault. I shouldn’t blame him for being attractive and tell him to wear a paper sack over his head when he comes to fix something at work, just so that I don’t feel attracted to him.

    Comment by Risa — December 22, 2009 @ 9:55 pm

  203. […] women and girls are routinely reminded to dress modestly. Here again, I make a pitch for pants. Pants do not ride up exposing a panoramic display of thigh […]

    Pingback by Why I Don’t Wear Pants to Sacrament Meeting « Course Correction — December 22, 2009 @ 10:26 pm

  204. re #187: My mother is bi-polar and at that time was undiagnosed. It doesn’t change what happened but makes it easier to forgive her and love her in spite of it. To answer your question it did seem like I had to prove myself more so than other women in college. It usually manifested in people showing open shock when grades were posted or praise was given for an assignment and it was me that had the highest grade or was the only one to get a tough test question correct. Many times I chose to work alone rather than in a group because members of the group would talk over the top of me, discount my input, etc. If I tried to be as assertive as other members of the group in stating my thoughts then inevitably somebody would accuse me of being spoiled or a premadonna. Oh well, a 4.0 is the best revenge.

    Professionally I’ve had more trouble with clients than with colleagues. Treated like a nosey secretary by the women or hit on by the men. Some will go to great lengths to convince me how complex their issue is and they really must speak to my male colleague. When I convince them to at least leave a message with the details of their issue it is usually a simple issue or even a billing question. They simply don’t want to trust any of the females in the office with anything more than a telephone message.

    Here’s an interesting observation: When I dress “down” I get more rude, lascivious comments and behavior from men than when I’m dressed in business attire or expensive clothes. Could it be a class thing? More approachable, safer? More vulnerable?

    Comment by twisp — December 23, 2009 @ 2:09 am

  205. Wow thanks for the support ladies! I came back here this morning expecting an ignorant comment from Davis, but instead see comments of support! Thank you :) Like I said before, I made a very personal and private decision, and it was a great decision for me!

    Comment by Tressa — December 23, 2009 @ 10:30 am

  206. Why would you expect an ignorant comment? I asked an honest question, you gave an honest answer.

    Comment by Davis — December 23, 2009 @ 10:51 am

  207. Heidi, maybe you can show your stake president some FLDS photos and say, “is this what you have in mind?” LOL.

    Comment by venus — December 23, 2009 @ 11:28 am

  208. Do y’all remember that phase where girls were wearing mini skirts over their jeans? Maybe a couple of years ago?

    I often wondered if that was an FLDS escapee going rebel…

    Comment by Enna — December 23, 2009 @ 12:11 pm

  209. Convert here.

    I have two young daughters and one of the things that still terrifies me about the Church is the idea that someone or several someones will try to convince them that their bodies are evil right about the time their poor little bodies are going through puberty.

    We dress modestly - some would say frumpishly - in our household. We do so because WE want to dress that way. My five year old loves long skirts. We have extremely light skin and need to keep covered or we burn in the sunlight.

    I do wish FAR more attention was given to the YM and men in teaching them that THEY are in control of their thoughts. Also, I really feel that we have taught the YM and men to lust after our bodies.

    Remember in the Victorian era when seeing a lady’s ankle was scandalous? Too much coverage and making body parts taboo can and does create an unnatural attraction to those parts.

    Comment by kari — December 23, 2009 @ 2:20 pm

  210. I expected ingorance because I felt as though the questions that you asked me were ignorant to begin with.

    Because I have enhanced breasts you seemed to assume that #1- I am vain. #2- That I dress immodestly (even though I clearly stated that I dress modestly [garments are always covered and I unfortunately have an extra 30 lbs or so, so tight clothing is a big no no for me]…?). #3- That I show them off PERIOD. And #4- That it’s a very likely possibility that I enjoy making men stare and making other women jealous.

    Truth is I’ve never seen a man stare at my breasts and I don’t think anyone I know is jealous of me. My breasts look very good and natural on my body, and people who are close to me (coworkers, inlaws) don’t even know I have had it done.

    Hopefully my answers to your questions might encourage you to think twice before judging another woman who has had a breast augmentation. Not everyone who gets it done ends up looking like a p0rn star.

    Comment by Tressa — December 23, 2009 @ 3:43 pm

  211. I’m sorry my questions were taken the wrong way. As I said, they were genuine questions and I was not being rude.

    Perhaps you could find out what if anything I was assuming before attacking me for it. Why are your assumptions acceptable, but any I may or may not have made are not.

    Please let the street go both ways before ‘judging’ someone. Maybe you could ask a question. That’s all I did.

    Comment by Davis — December 23, 2009 @ 3:58 pm

  212. Forgive me for assuming you had certain assumptions. (Say that 5 times fast?)

    I assumed you thought those things because of the questions you asked me.

    Either way. I suppose it does not really matter!

    Comment by Tressa — December 23, 2009 @ 4:37 pm

  213. I will have to admit that I find myself making judgments about people who have cosmetic surgery done. I tend to think of such people as having low self esteem. Though I color my hair so I probably have a little self esteem to work on as well. If having cosmetic work really does make you feel better about yourself, then I guess it is a good thing, maybe even cheaper than therapy in the long run. I just don’t know if cosmetic surgery really does help someone feel better about themselves. Do those of you who have had cosmetic surgery feel that you are a better person than before?

    Comment by StillConfused — December 23, 2009 @ 5:08 pm

  214. I have never had cosmetic surgery SC, but I’d like to chime in here, if you don’t mind. I suffer the same thing many others here have - i have tiny frame, am 5′4″, a small waist and huge boobs. It’s just all out of proportion.

    I’ve been oogled, laughed at, made fun of, teased, hit on, etc. since I was 16. I can’t find dresses to fit me or swimsuits. Every shopping outing ends in tears. My back hurts and makes regular exercise embarrassing and painful. I would so love to have them reduced. Just to feel NORMAL (not yelling again). Just to shop normal. Just to dress normal. Just to exercise normal. Just to swim normal. To stop the stares, the come-ons, the jokes, the pain.

    No, I don’t think any of these commenters here think they are better people once they have had cosmetic work. They sound like they just feel a hell of a lot better afterwards.

    I’m not saying there aren’t vain people in the world. And I’m not saying that no one ever had surgery for the wrong reasons. But it shouldn’t be wrong, ipso facto.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 23, 2009 @ 5:33 pm

  215. I haven’t had plastic surgery, but I’ve contemplated it constantly since, oh…seventh grade? Twelve years old? When I had most of my height (5′11) and wore a D-cup? And couldn’t cover myself up or shorten myself or strap my breasts in tightly enough to make them disappear so the boys and men would just leave me alone?

    At that point I learned about reduction surgery. And I’ve obsessed about it for years. I’ve decided that if I haven’t lost enough breast mass after attaining my ideal weight, I’ll have the surgery done. It’s not about vanity - I like my breasts, except for their size, which is overwhelming to my body, physically. It’s hard to feel comfortable in my body as it is. There are social issues, but it’s mostly the physical discomfort and just plain pain-in-the-assitude of having outsize breasts. Nothing fits right. I can’t shop for normal clothes or wear normal bras. I can’t do many cardio workouts (running, jumping jacks, etc.) because no sports bra exists that works for me. Normal posture is impossible. I can’t wear anything cut for women that isn’t burqa-like without feeling like I’m revealing too much.

    I love that so many women are learning to embrace their bodies as-is, without wanting to change them in some massive way. I’ve accepted my crooked nose, that I must always wear glasses, that I’m never going to be skinny because my frame just won’t support that. But I just feel so awkward, all the time. I never feel at ease with myself. So, for me, the concept of surgery is about the most basic desires, wanting to be comfortable, able to stand up straight and wear shirts cut for women without going up an unnecessary size. I’d like to live relatively free of the weight and the pain and not feel like I’m being smothered by my body. I hope I won’t need surgery, but if it comes to that, I imagine I’ll be really, really grateful to have a proportionate body that is easy to move and dress and carry.

    That being said, I can’t relate to wanting plastic surgery for reasons other than health and physical comfort. I feel ambivalent-to-negative about plastic surgery in general. I think it’s generally a response to the overwhelming pressure to conform to arbitrary and largely impossible standards of female beauty. But I loved reading Tressa’s comment about how much she loves her body - even if I also thought, Man, I would frackin’ LOVE to have AA breasts! :)

    Comment by Chandelle — December 23, 2009 @ 5:53 pm

  216. [Chandelle - are we long lost twins? Except for the height, we just keep matching up on thing after thing after thing.]

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 23, 2009 @ 6:10 pm

  217. Another thing that pisses me off is that, because I am so small with ginormous boobs, people constantly ask me where I bought my boobs (as if that is even appropriate or there business if it were true). And one of my friends at work confessed that the other ladies at work regularly talked about how vain I was for getting a boob job!!!! Grrrr, so frustrating when I really, really long for a reduction and here people are assuming I got an augmentation!

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 23, 2009 @ 6:21 pm

  218. (okay, i managed to use the wrong “there” and the wrong “here” in one post. sorry, should be “their” and “hear”. :/ )

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 23, 2009 @ 6:35 pm

  219. It’s so sad to me that our society is such that people need to consider surgery on a body part in it’s natural state so they won’t be treated unfairly.

    I get surgery for back pain, or for you own feelings, but to avoid social pressure makes me irritated at society.

    Comment by britt — December 23, 2009 @ 8:07 pm

  220. Lawyer Lady - I too am in the 5′4″ range, 30E which is very buxom on my 115 lb frame. Maybe that is why breast enlargements always seemed so odd to me. I had considered having a reduction because of back pain. But after my son was born, the back pain went away.

    I look at cosmetic surgery… not just the cost of the procedures themselves, but the recovery time and lost income during recovery. I am too cheap to be willing to endure plastic surgery. There just isn’t anything on my body that I feel that compelled to change. I do color my hair, but I by the stuff in bulk at the beauty supply store and just do it myself at home when the roots start to show

    Comment by StillConfused — December 23, 2009 @ 9:59 pm

  221. SC - I realize there is a cost/benefit analysis involved and obviously the benefits haven’t prevailed thus far for me. All I am trying to say is that clearly there are sginificant challenges to this disproportionate body size and many have felt that surgery has eased those challenges. But people here are not claiming they are better people because of the surgery - they have simply said that it has made everyday life a lot more practical and normal and has reduced some stress. I think there is value in that and it shouldn’t be judged.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 23, 2009 @ 10:52 pm

  222. If having cosmetic work really does make you feel better about yourself, then I guess it is a good thing

    I think it’s important for people to feel good about themselves. But I just with that society wouldn’t make people feel bad about themselves to start with, no matter what they look like.

    I have been a 36DD since high school, am 5′3″ (with shoes on), and had a lot of the same problems. I think it would be interesting to do a study on why fMH attract large breasted women :) And what that implies about our male commenters :):)…

    Anyway, I’ve put on considerable weight (not in a good way) the past few years, and although I like to be healthy, I have to admit, I kind of like being overweight. It’s stopped all the hit-ons, p0rn star assumptions, etc. Now that my waist isn’t so small, it’s hard to tell if I have large breasts or am just fat. I used to want to get a reduction, but I’ve gotten pretty used to myself these days. I still think I want to get braces, though…

    Comment by Enna — December 23, 2009 @ 10:53 pm

  223. Enna, the extra weight is a question for me, too. I’ve wondered if I use it as a shield because I felt so perpetually ashamed of my body and its inevitable exposure when I was younger, and now I’m safe because it’s just a part of my overall bigness. I’m getting down to a healthy weight, but I definitely worry that it will just emphasize things again. I can wear extra weight and larger breasts because of my height, but tall + full breasts + not fat might be a bit too much. The extra weight keeps me from attracting attention no matter what my breasts look like - that’s a relief, I admit.

    Comment by Chandelle — December 23, 2009 @ 11:05 pm

  224. “I think it would be interesting to do a study on why fMH attract large breasted women…”

    Hahaha Enna! I was thinking the same thing the other day reading through these comments. Too funny…

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 23, 2009 @ 11:21 pm

  225. The problem that I have with modesty is that what is taught about it is not really about skin coverage. I’m hot, yes I am finally owning that. Despite my three year old, and the fact that I’ve been married six years, I still exude sexuality. I always have. I dress modestly always covering my g’s. But it doesn’t matter: people still look my way. My husband has made comments about the way I look in my temple dress!To keep that from happening, I have to be depressed (or repressed). Often it comes across that modesty is about keeping men comfortable and pure of mind (and labeling women’s purity). If this is truly the case then I am doomed. Luckily, I know that the Lord would rather have me happy despite the apparent temptation that might bring. I think the true problem is the way our culture looks and fears sexuality in general. If we could all come to a better understanding and acceptance of it, perhaps skin, breasts, and booties would be less significant.

    Comment by Camilla — December 24, 2009 @ 12:21 am

  226. The extra weight keeps me from attracting attention no matter what my breasts look like - that’s a relief, I admit.

    That’s exactly where I’m at Chandelle. And I think it should worry me how much I like it here…

    Comment by Enna — December 24, 2009 @ 12:27 am

  227. Posted by pat the destroyer in the wrong thread ;)

    #61, re mike’s odd demonization of married women vs single women, first it isn’t just the singles that flash skin to get male attention

    True. I base this on my SIL, who got divorced after her husband join the Church of First Born. Some sisters in her Ward told her after that they were afraid she was going to take one of their husbands away.

    Yes, this goes both ways.

    Comment by Mike H. — December 25, 2009 @ 6:50 pm

  228. Okay, if you’re afraid some random ward member is going to “take your husband away” there are clearly bigger problems than what she’s wearing.

    Comment by RCH — December 25, 2009 @ 6:56 pm

  229. Modesty to me is one of those subjects that people in he church spend a lot of time on, but it is really a personal thing. I can feel totally naked in a very covering dress if I am feeling insecure and doubtful about myself… but if I am gardening in the summer, I can feel totally modest in a tank top shorts and tons of dirt because I feel accomplished, confident and ‘at home’ with myself. I have always thought that if we taught girls and women to love themselves and who they are (the WHOLE package) that modesty would take care of itself. I always was more likely to try and dress ’sexier’ if I felt that I looked ugly and unattractive and hopeful that if I dressed that way, no one would notice how I felt. Many of my friends did the same thing. Now everything I wear is all hand outs or clothing found at the ‘free room’ at the local transfer station. None of it fits perfectly and luckily I still have very small breasts because I do not have the problems that some people have mentioned on this thread. (I actually thought of breast augmentation but I am way too cheap to do that and I figured that was ‘harming’ God’s temple so I opted for a belly ring instead. It was cheap and it was amazing how that helped my self esteem! I think it started me on a journey of self discovery and self love that I am not sure I would have found otherwise – and I know that is ‘harming’ the body temple too… another issue that I think the church hierarchy should possibly leave alone because it is such a personal decision and many of the rules seem geared again toward women) I have had many people, especially church members comment on my clothing and I worried about it,but in the end I cannot afford anything else so I wear the over or undersized jeans, huge shirts and mismatched socks. In some ways, it is now my style and I feel comfortable and OK with it. I would probably feel uncomfortable in any clothing with a new tag on it! Maybe it is just me (although others seem to share this opinion), but the more we (men and women) focus on other’s outsides especially at church, we really cheat ourselves of the opportunity to school ourselves and learn about ourselves, other people and the Savior. I have a feeling that Jesus could walk into almost any place (including our services) and not notice anything that anyone was wearing- he would be more concerned with how each of us was feeling and what we needed to hear and just loving us.

    Comment by Sonia — December 26, 2009 @ 6:55 am

  230. Love the post Heidi! Sometimes I feel like I am the only one who feels this way.

    Comment by Nat — December 26, 2009 @ 12:34 pm

  231. Burkas would solve this whole problem.

    Comment by StepfordWife — December 28, 2009 @ 2:25 am

  232. Ok- I am really LOL at comment #225!

    Comment by Sammy — December 28, 2009 @ 11:02 am

  233. For the comfort of men?!? Let me tell you what men (like me) think about, well nevermind…

    As for the Burkas…

    I recently read some books on Islam. The reason for the veil was to protect women from rape. You see, hair is just too darn sexy and must be covered. Like your boobs, I guess. We men must be protected.

    My only question is whether Mormon Burkas would be Black or White?

    Comment by BEMG — December 29, 2009 @ 4:53 pm

  234. BEMG,

    Yeah, I know, I thought the same thing when I read the comment about making men uncomfortable. Even a guy who is faithful and is trying to keep his thoughts pure (whatever that exactly entails) - I don’t think what he is feeling is discomfort when he sees some skin.

    Before I get totally railed on, I am not in any way promoting immodesty. I’m pretty nuetral on the topic. I just found it a funny thought to think that provocatively dressed women make men uncomfortable.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 29, 2009 @ 5:52 pm

  235. THE FEAR OF CLEAVAGE

    Rage, rage against the latent
    implications of the female
    chest in church, where hint
    of bosom may cause males
    of every age to gasp or leer

    and miss a beat or two—
    forgetting why they’re here
    or what they came to do.
    Music’s charm to soothe
    a savage breast is likely

    not the best exemplified
    by baritones who sing
    the choir’s impassioned
    hymn—“Ye Mountains High” ‘
    with a peculiar fire. Unless

    you’re self-possessed
    and blessed with spunk,
    do not engage the sorry
    adolescent stage
    of patriarchs and punks

    who may take umbrage
    should you dress with
    confidence and flair,
    and blush or stare
    if you show cleavage.

    (January 2010)

    Comment by Paul Swenson — January 3, 2010 @ 1:32 am

  236. #235–If your user name is your actual name, I may have worked for you, both in your shop and as your daughter’s voice teacher. If I’m mistaken, I apologize.

    Comment by meganomega — January 3, 2010 @ 2:50 am

  237. Megan,

    No need to apologize. I doubt I’m the Paul
    Swenson you’re remembering. I’m a journalist and a poet,
    and I can’t recall that my daughter took voice lessons.
    But she probably would have appreciated some, had I known of you. Thanks for asking.

    Comment by Paul Swenson — January 3, 2010 @ 4:07 am

  238. BEMG mormon Burkas would be soft and pink

    Comment by britt — January 3, 2010 @ 9:35 am

  239. Just a thought as a newer member who struggles with the culture of the church more then the dogma.

    In response to the dress pants issue at church I use this logic and do not apologize for it.
    In the spring and summer when it is warm I wear dresses, skirts and even (do I dare say it) dressier capris.
    In the winter and fall I wear dress pants. My six year old daughter asked me one time why I wear pants and I responded… “Smart people wear warm clothes when its cold and cooler clothes when it is warm.” She started wearing pants in the winter ever since.

    People do stare and try and make me uncomfortable for it…but I am a smart women and logic tells me that when it is cold outside its time to pull out my pants! Glad to see some other people find the whole dresses or skirts all the time thing ridiculous.

    Comment by Lindsey — January 7, 2010 @ 10:16 am

  240. I am glad that you are secure in wearing what you want, but I wish you could have explained it without implying that everyone who wears skirts in the winter are idiots.

    I like it when people do their own thing. I wish people didn’t try to justify it by putting down everyone else.

    Comment by Katie P. — January 7, 2010 @ 10:19 am

  241. Lindsey, I liked your response to the six year old and didn’t feel that you implied “idiot”. I used the same logic with my kids when they were younger about when they could wear shorts. Seventy degrees = shorts. When it’s cold outside, long pants. Smart and logical.

    Comment by numi — January 7, 2010 @ 11:06 am

  242. Lindsey, working for the church I have to wear skirts in the winter…and boy, do me and my female co-workers complain! I’ve sort of solved this by wearing really thick tights. They have saved my legs. I wish I could, as a church employee, wear pants. I think the rule is ridiculous…I’m hoping it changes.

    Comment by Risa — January 7, 2010 @ 11:56 am

  243. Lindsey,

    I agree with numi. I think you’re wise and I didn’t think your point of view was somehow calling other people idiots at all. Because, bottom line, wearing a dress when it is cold outside is perfectly fine for those who want to do that, but starring and making women who choose another route feel uncomfortable is just old-fashioned, ridiculous and unfair. As if God really gives a hoot what we’re wearing. If He’s there, I’m sure he’s more concerned about our minds and hearts.

    Keep using your logic, Lindsey.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — January 7, 2010 @ 12:00 pm

  244. Last Sunday, I wore a long denim skirt with stretch pants under. It’s cold!

    Comment by Alliegator — January 7, 2010 @ 12:03 pm

  245. BTW, Katie, I think if you read Lindsey’s comment carefully you will see that she did not say anything negative about people who wear dresses in the cold. She simply stated that smart people dress for the weather, basically. That could translate into pants for some women and dresses with pantyhose or tights or leggings or whatever for others. Hard to argue that it would be practical or wise to wear a tube top and minishirt in 20 degree weather or sweaters and ear muffs in 95 degree weather.

    I think that is the only point she was trying to make.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — January 7, 2010 @ 12:04 pm

  246. should say “miniskirt”. Sorry.

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — January 7, 2010 @ 12:05 pm

  247. Once when I wore a nice suit pants set my bishop said. To me”I saw you in pants and I thought thats not like YOU!!! But then I realized you were going to play the cello.” I thought to myself for a moment and then said, “Actually I wear them all the time, I am just new in the ward and thus you have never seen me wear them”. What the hell is that suppose to imply? Not like you? Not like what? In any case, I am a slut for a nice linen suit. Oh baby… I then had children and could not fit into my suits.;) SO I started with the skirt/jacket combo sets.A little extra room for the tummy. When I was in California all of the foreign women wore pants. I think thats why in the ensign it has that little info for new members and it specifically says, “DRESSES” or “SKIRTS” for appropriate wear. I also don’t see the difference in my nice pants to the temple and someones jean skirt with flip flops. I know everyones idea of dress up is different and that we should just trust others that they are putting that effort into their sunday dress. Maybe flip flops are the best they have. But maybe I think my pants are the best. uhhhh so relative..

    Comment by CZ — January 7, 2010 @ 12:23 pm

  248. Do women act differently in pants???? Maybe thats the question. I think I do actually. Better. What about you peoples??? ;) Oh crap daughter into diet coke= i am being a neglectful parent. gotta go

    Comment by CZ — January 7, 2010 @ 12:27 pm

  249. I really think all the funny things about the church, pants included, are culturally based. When I was a teen I had a pant/dress thing that I wore to church all the time, no one ever said anything. If I could find a skirt like that now, I’d still wear it.

    I feel like I have to be careful about which cultural things I challenge, because if you push too much, you lose credibility, unfortunately.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 7, 2010 @ 12:34 pm

  250. #249 Credibility? As though people think you are not a faithful saint? If that is what you are saying I agree. I have noticed depending on where I live the assumptions are different. But I suppose I was never a careful person and could care less if others think I am credible. But I see how remaining credible gives you more influence.

    Comment by CZ — January 7, 2010 @ 1:08 pm

  251. 250- yes, people question your faithfulness. It’s unfortunate that so many people have such black and white views.

    To me, it’s important to maintain credibility, because I think that change comes when people with credibility introduce it slowly, also I love my calling, and the service I am able to do through it, I would have for my faithfulness to be called into question and to be released.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 7, 2010 @ 1:12 pm

  252. hate, not have.

    Comment by Alliegator — January 7, 2010 @ 1:12 pm

  253. #251 It’s great you have that personality. I think too though it can go the opposite way. When people whom are a little different see that you are, they flock to you. I suppose people just assume I am not faithful, and for so long that it just doesn’t phase me. I still get callings, but probably would have a difficult time dealing with other callings. so thats great you pull it off.

    Comment by CZ — January 7, 2010 @ 1:18 pm

  254. Dress pants should be ok in church. I agree, but that is not a modesty issue!

    The burka & islam comparison is a false analogy and a foolish straw man since the church modesty advocates are not saying that a man might lose control, grope & rape people if exposed to skin.

    Pantyhose are unreasonable and opressive, and other rules may be also, bet that doesn’t mean that we should dispense with modesty altogether. Its not unreasonable to say cover the garment area whether you wear them or not when you go to church, to avoid distracting others.

    Comment by pat the destroyer — January 7, 2010 @ 1:52 pm

  255. Katie, Lindsey sais nothing against those who wear skirts. Her complain was against those who force them on other women.

    Comment by pat the destroyer — January 7, 2010 @ 1:56 pm

  256. “Why are you wearing pants.”

    “Because smart people where warm clothes in the winter.”

    Calling people wearing skirts in the winter was certainly implied. I don’t like the answer - if you want to wear pants, then do it. Why do you have to set it up as one way being superior? What’s wrong with “I want to and I think the Lord’s fine with it.”?

    Comment by Katie P. — January 7, 2010 @ 2:25 pm

  257. Katie P.,
    Really did not mean to imply that people who choose to wear pants are more superior then those who choose to wear dresses.

    If you like to wear dresses because you like to wear dresses despite what the weather is..great! If you wear dresses during cold weather because you want to be comfortable in your culture,
    I think that is fine too. But in all honesty I do think that wearing warmer clothes in colder weather, despite what your culture tells you, is the smartest idea.

    As for what the Lord is fine with, I don’t think he worries too much about dresses vs. pants but maybe thats just me.

    Comment by Lindsey — January 7, 2010 @ 4:59 pm

  258. I just wear nice long skirts, sweater and stockings and am plenty warm in the winter.

    I don’t stress too much about the pants/skirts issue-for me skirts or dresses set the day apart. My nice pants are all dry clean only and I’m too smart to wear those around children.

    Comment by britt — January 7, 2010 @ 5:13 pm

  259. I like it when the weather calls for layering on Sunday…I wear trouser socks with my longer skirts, and all kinds of fun stuff up top…scarves, sweaters, jackets, wraps, whatever! ( …but I haven’t worn pantyhose in decades ANYWHERE.) I like the way it feels to dress different on Sunday. I see some wearing leggings under dresses as it gets colder. Are leg warmers back yet?

    Comment by Melissa P. — January 7, 2010 @ 5:59 pm

  260. I don’t know if leg warmers are back, as in, fashionable, but my mom recently bought some and has been wearing them to work every day in this cold weather, so apparently they’re available somewhere.

    Comment by Kimarie — January 7, 2010 @ 6:07 pm

  261. I had a girlfriend at BYU that always wore nylons, even in the summer when they made her sweat. I asked her why she wore them if they obviously made her so uncomfortable. She said it would be immodest to not wear them with her skirt. I don’t get that. They are transparent. What’s wrong with showing her calves? Agreed that some specific modesty rules are stupid. But the restrictions on men in the church are at least as strict. We have to actually cover shoulders, which are often our best feature. So this whole argument about church modesty being about patriarchy and men controlling women, is a little loony toons. Church modesty is more controlling other men and women controlling women. Have some guy come in to church with his shirt open and his pecs showing, and you can bet that he’s going to face some pressure.

    We can disagree about which modesty standards are reasonable, but the basic idea is healthy and respectful.

    Comment by Xtian — January 7, 2010 @ 7:00 pm

  262. I often feel that I am told to dress modestly not because I need to respect my body, but because it is my responsibility to keep the young men pure. At a youth conference (I am seventeen), the girls were required to wear a tshirt over their swimsuits, but the next year, the young men were playing basketball shirtless.

    I don’t know why that’s all right, because I know that girls are also attracted to guys, and it doesn’t even need to be shirtless guys. It’s not their job to keep my thoughts clean, and it’s not mine for theirs. I am ogled no matter what I wear, and the size of my chest is something I cannot help.

    Comment by Bree — January 11, 2010 @ 9:29 pm

  263. Xtian #261 -

    So this whole argument about church modesty being about patriarchy and men controlling women, is a little loony toons

    The standards themselves, though, are set by men, are they not?

    Comment by Lorian — January 11, 2010 @ 9:39 pm

  264. #224 “I think it would be interesting to do a study on why fMH attract large breasted women…”
    maybe you all are just the only ones who talk about your breasts.Don’t worry i don’t think ill b back to this feminist thing.

    Comment by Mara — January 12, 2010 @ 4:06 am

  265. It’s okay, Mara. Humor can be difficult for some to understand. Keep trying! ;)

    Comment by Lorian — January 12, 2010 @ 11:18 am

  266. Mara join me and the less than large breasted women. I’m in the amazon size group though….So LLLBBAS.

    Comment by britt — January 12, 2010 @ 11:53 am

  267. So, you want some honesty?

    I do wear high heels (and love towering above short people). I’ve been known to wear skirts above my knee. And, I wear colored tights, designed hose and even - yes - every once and a while a version of “fish-net” tights in beige with much smaller holes. I absolutely adore big flashy jewelry (fake and real). I don’t wear them all together, but if I’m wearing a long skirt and boots and a sweater, my jewelry shines loudly.

    This however, does not make me immodest. It just means my idea of fashion in my forties is very different from the jean smock top dress and shoes someone else may be wearing. I wouldn’t be caught dead in some of the things considered modest by others in my ward.

    That said, I manage to dress within the realm of being modest. But am I really? No! I am a “natural woman” with a loud personality and yeah, my husband is one lucky man! If a man looks a me, I hope his first though isn’t about his car needing gas. I dress to look good, or as some would say, attractive. But my most attractive asset (and yes, I’ve got a great body) is my personality. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is not modest at all. I say what I think, I do what I want, and teach my children to say “No, I don’t want to do that activity” and to have a brain as well.

    Sometimes, being the one who says what everyone is secretly thinking is liberating. And sexy as hell. And if some man thinks to himself, hey, great legs, I say thank you for the compliment!

    But the real kicker is this: if you are a sexy, powerful and intelligent woman, men don’t really bother you. They are too scared! As a young woman, I always had to make the first move. That even goes for female friends. More than one has told me that I was intimidating until they got to know me.

    So the lesson here is to wear whatever you feel comfortable and powerful in. If someone thinks you are sexy, take the compliment and move on. Note, I’m not saying to dress like you are working the corner. Attitude is everything.

    Comment by Honest Jane — January 20, 2010 @ 3:02 pm

  268. I wouldn’t be caught dead in some of the things considered modest by others in my ward.

    And we should allow others to wear what they feel good in too, without trashing their clothing choice. Even if it is a “jean smock top dress”.

    (Sorry, I’m cranky today)

    On sunday I saw two sisters wearing fish-net type tights. They were cute, and I thought that I would like them if I had a skirt they’d look good with. However, usually if I’m wearing tights at all, it’s to keep my legs warm, which fish-nets wouldn’t really help with. :)

    Comment by Alliegator — January 20, 2010 @ 3:30 pm

  269. my problem with fishnets is that my hair pokes through

    ;)

    Comment by fMhLisa — January 20, 2010 @ 3:44 pm

  270. my hair pokes through all kinds of stockings

    Comment by marta — January 20, 2010 @ 3:52 pm

  271. You’re not supposed to wear them on your head, silly. :lol:

    Comment by Lorian — January 20, 2010 @ 3:53 pm

  272. Alliegator –

    You got me LOL . . . . but then, these are usually the same women telling my daughter what she “needs” to wear . . . . HA HA HA

    Let’s hope my daughter learns from me it isn’t about what you are wearing at all. And there is no shame in looking good and letting a man know you are alive.

    As for the old hair conversation . . . . I just adored a newbie who conversed about her Brazilian. I wanted to just hug her tight as stunned Mollies sat there like deer in the headlights. Of course, my first question was, doesn’t it itch when it grows back in? God bless them, every one.

    Comment by Honest Jane — January 20, 2010 @ 4:24 pm

  273. :psst: I don’t have any personal experience, but I think waxed hair itches less growing back than shaved.

    Back to your regularly scheduled programming… :tee-hee:

    Comment by Lorian — January 20, 2010 @ 4:33 pm

  274. We talk about modesty in terms of what is disturbing to men.I’m a lot more interested in what might make my sisters uncomfortable.Those of us who are not too happy with the way we look may not welcome meeting a friend for lunch who flaunts her perfect body.I’d much rather keep my friends than attract male attention,I need the friendship of women far more than I need to gratify the male gaze.OTOH,I’m happy to see my women friends look gorgeous.But I do think there is a difference between looking like we value ourselves,and dressing in a way that demands male attention.

    Comment by wayfarer — January 20, 2010 @ 4:41 pm

  275. Oops,sorry if that sounded a tad self righteous.Just watching myself growing up is all.

    Comment by wayfarer — January 20, 2010 @ 4:47 pm

  276. I think this exactly in a way what I’ve been saying in a way . . . it is attitude. If you dress and you value yourself and know that you look good and feel good, it shouldn’t impact other women around you unless they have self-esteem issues. (By the way before you start on me, LOL, many a friend has told me that I suffer from too much self-esteem!)

    Not that a woman is dressing for a man to say “ooohhhh baby,” BUT if a man should notice a woman who is dressed nicely, or is wearing a formfitting clothing (sin! sin!), is it the crime of the century? The human body is a wonderful and sexy thing. We are geared to be sexual beings. I can admire a well built man, or a good looking guy without acting upon it. If I want to look good for my spouse, then naturally I will probably look good to other males. I think we need to move away from any sexual thought is sinful.

    Is all this repression really working? I see little evidence of it.

    Comment by Honest Jane — January 20, 2010 @ 4:56 pm

  277. Honestly as I read what many of you are saying I am not even sure why you are members of the church. Many of you clearly do not believe or understand basic doctrine. If you don’t believe in the concept of modesty and feel our “male” leaders are outdated. Perhaps you should prayerfully consider whethor your heart is in the right place or if you are attempting to justify what you know is a bad decision. Not really my place to judge, maybe just something to consider.

    PS Modesty does not mean frumpish it is very possible to dress, attractively and stylishly and still be modest.

    Comment by Dakota — January 20, 2010 @ 4:59 pm

  278. Dakota -

    I understand basic doctrine sweetheart. It is the petty laws of men that I have a slight disagreement about. No where in scripture does it state how tight my blouse can be, or how short my skirt can be. Those items HAVE and WILL continute to change as society changes.

    Why must we go after my “testimony” if I disagree? Could it possibly be that you need reconsider yours?

    Said in love, sweetie.

    Comment by Honest Jane — January 20, 2010 @ 5:05 pm

  279. Dakota, just a little social skills hint. If you want people to listen to you and interact with you on a meaningful level then you don’t start out with a judgment-filled lecture on what you think we believe.
    Nor with the assumption that we don’t prayerfully consider things as well as you do, nor that you have any idea what it in our hearts.

    That’s just rude, dude.

    Comment by fMhLisa — January 20, 2010 @ 5:06 pm

  280. And Dakota, just in the interests of full disclosure, in case you’re new ’round these parts, some of us are not Mormon. Some of us are downright heathens (albeit in my case, a Christian heathen). :lol: I do my best to contribute meaningfully to the conversation, but sometimes just can’t resist the urge to crack myself up with a little inappropriate joke or two here and there. :snort: The sisters tolerate me very sweetly. ;)

    Comment by Lorian — January 20, 2010 @ 5:15 pm

  281. Hey, some of my best friends are heathens ! ! !

    Comment by Honest Jane — January 20, 2010 @ 5:33 pm

  282. Honest Jane- You sound so much like me I LOVE YOUR POSTS!
    That is all!

    Comment by Sara M — January 28, 2010 @ 3:55 am

  283. In response to Ann in #87 I never insinuated in my post that because someone or you is overweight or fat, they are “insecure or jealous” some of the most insecure or jealous women I have ever known were in fact very thin and stereotypically beautiful. I don’t appreciate needing to get over myself because I see being physically fit as an achievement. To me that comment in itself is an example of the very thing we are talking about on this post. That if I feel good about the way my body is or looks, regardless of anyone else’s point of view, I need to, in your words, “get over myself”.

    Comment by Sara M — January 28, 2010 @ 4:16 am

  284. Someone pointed out to me that I’d missed this question by Lorian:

    The standards themselves, though, are set by men, are they not?

    I don’t think so, no more than they are by women. As wayfarer said:

    We talk about modesty in terms of what is disturbing to men.I’m a lot more interested in what might make my sisters uncomfortable.

    Comment by Xtian — January 29, 2010 @ 7:08 pm

  285. Wonderful insights Heidi!

    I think back to Elder Bednar’s CES talk on living in the body and owning it, we have so little to be ashamed of as honest members. Live life freely and let the sin of judgment be upon others, something they should be personally accountable for as should we.

    Comment by Tod Robbins — February 26, 2010 @ 12:27 pm

  286. These sorts of lectures would be a lot more effective if they instead focused on the real problem: flaunting the body for attention because of insecurity. And it doesn’t help that so many men objectify women. Yesterday I read a talk that described women who hadn’t married as “unclaimed jewels.”

    Really, the issue of insecurity and feeling unloved is so much worse that an errant thought.

    Comment by Dorothy — March 13, 2010 @ 5:55 pm

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