Christmas Songs Past their Prime
Remember this post back in September when we talked about how “no” means NO, and some commenters enlightened us (okay, well me, anyways) to the fact that our society has this idea that when a woman says “no”, she really means “no, well maybe, I don’t think so, okay” and it’s all part of the fun courting game?
I am firmly in the no-means-no camp. This Christmas season, I have been extremely disturbed by one particular song that keeps playing on the radio (sung by many different artists over the years): Baby It’s Cold Outside.
If you are not familiar with the song, it is basically a man and woman in his home at the end of an evening together. She wants to leave to go home, and he wants her to stay. She says a line, then he answers, and they go back and forth throughout the song. Here are some of the more perturbing lines to me (her line is the first part before the “-” and his is the second):
Well maybe just a half a drink more - Put some music on while I pour . . .
Say, what’s in this drink - No cabs to be had out there
Okay, so this song was written before the advent of GHB and other date rape drugs, but now that they exist and are a danger to women everywhere, is it still okay to raise our kids listening to a song about drugging someone you want to sleep with?
I ought to say no, no, no, sir - Mind if I move closer
At least I’m gonna say that I tried - What’s the sense in hurting my pride?
AAAUUUGGGH! Do I even need to comment on that?
I simply must go - Baby, it’s cold outside
The answer is no - Ooh darling, it’s cold outside
Sounds as clear as ice to me. The answer is no. No! NO!
You’ve really been grand - I thrill when you touch my hand
But don’t you see - How can you do this thing to me?
Yes, you my dear woman, are completely responsible for this man’s comfort and happiness. If you leave him wanting, that will be completely unacceptable.
And for the grand finale (in a slightly different order with man speaking first and woman second):
Cant you stay awhile longer baby
Well..I really shouldn’t…alrightMake it worth your while baby
Ahh, do that again.
Ahem. Kind of glad the song ends at that point.
So, am I overreacting? DH walked in the door from work singing, “Baby, it’s cold outside!” I immediately said, “I don’t like that song anymore. It’s about men not listening when women tell them no and leads to date rape”. He looked at me for a second (that look of, “You’ve been spending too much time on that website again”) but hasn’t sung it since. I always change the station when it comes on now.
Sure, it’s just a song. But don’t songs shape our culture? How can we say that no means no on the one hand but glorify a man ignoring no on the other hand? And I didn’t even touch on how a grown woman is worried that her mother, father, sister, brother will be up waiting for her (or is she a teenager being offered alcohol by an adult male?) OR that the reason she wants to go is to prevent rumors from her maiden’s aunt and the rest of the town. It basically infantilizes her.
I vote to recycle this song. What say you?
LOl. When I was working at a residential treatment facility for women (a lot of whom had sexual trauma) we NEVER played that song because it was waaaaay too triggering. They used to not worry over it, but enough girls complained.
Funny that a Christmas song would have to be put on a “banned” list, isn’t it?
And while I love Doris Day and Bing Crosby and find their dueting voices quite charming, I too will have to vote for a recycle of this song.
Comment by sare — December 21, 2009 @ 1:25 pm
Ha, yes! I had never heard this song until last Christmas season and immediately disliked it, mainly because both the tune and lyrics are obnoxious, and yet I have found the tune stubbornly catchy.
So I laughed when I read that your husband came home singing it, because I’ve noticed myself self-consciously singing it from time to time, though mostly in mockery.
Comment by WJ — December 21, 2009 @ 1:29 pm
You’re right, Stephanie. So many songs like that really, realy disturb me.
Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:41 pm
It’s right up there with
“Young girl get out of my mind
my love for you is way outta line
better run girl, your much too young girl
With all the charms of a woman
You’ve kept the secret of your youth
You led me to believe
You’re old enough
To give me Love
And now it hurts to know the truth, Oh,
Young girl get out of my mind
my love for you is way outta line
better run girl, your much too young girl
Beneath your perfume and make-up
You’re just a baby in disguise
And though you know
That it is wrong to be
Alone with me
That come on look is in your eyes, Oh,
Young girl get outta my mind
My love for you is way outta line
better run girl, Your much too young girl
So hurry home to your mama
I’m sure she wonders where you are
Get out of here
Before I have the time
To change my mind
‘Cause I’m afraid we’ll go too far, Oh,
Young girl get outta my mind
my love for you is way outta line
better run girl, your much too young girl”
GAG!!! That constitutes a “romantic song”??? Yikes.
Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:51 pm
Sorry for all the “your” instead of “you’re” in those lyrics. I c/p’d them intact and didn’t have the intestinal fortitude to edit them. :puke:
Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
Agreed Stephanie! I really dislike that song, and was pretty sad it was included in Elf because I otherwise love that movie!
Comment by Enna — December 21, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
So glad someone else has the same thoughts on this song. It’s particularly creepy when modern versions of this song come out (Zooey Deschanel in “Elf”) and the lyrics are sung unedited.
Comment by ameliorateme — December 21, 2009 @ 2:05 pm
Are you saying that no CAN never mean yes as an empirical fact, or that no SHOULD never mean yes as a normative ideal?
Comment by TT — December 21, 2009 @ 2:06 pm
I vote to can the song, not just because it is sexist, but i’ve always hated it.
Comment by Ian Cook — December 21, 2009 @ 2:08 pm
I’ve never liked “Santa Baby,” where the woman just demands all the stuff she wants. Seriously, a grown woman sings this?
Comment by Mel — December 21, 2009 @ 2:15 pm
Amen, Stephanie.
Comment by Kaimi — December 21, 2009 @ 2:25 pm
As to the “grown woman” in this song having her whole family waiting up for her, you have to look at cultural norms for when the song was written. If she was single and still living with her parents, then I don’t think it’s abnormal.
You’re pretty right on the lyrics…although I really like singing the song. It won’t ever be on the list of songs to sing at ward Christmas parties, though.
Comment by ErinAnn — December 21, 2009 @ 2:26 pm
#10 You beat me to it! Hate that song, also.
I’d rather not recycle it. I don’t care if it languishes in a landfill forever.
Comment by Lupita — December 21, 2009 @ 2:30 pm
I’ve always hated “I saw Mommy kissing Santa Claus,” where the brat gloats about how funny it would be for dad to catch mom cheating. Yea, catching one’s spouse in the act with someone else is always hilarious fun for the whole family. (And yes, I know it’s actually her husband underneath the disguise, but the boy doesn’t know that and thinks she is being unfaithful.)
Comment by de Pizan — December 21, 2009 @ 2:31 pm
How funny you should say this. The first time I ever heard this song it was sung by a couple in the ward at the Ward Christmas party. Their singing voices were phenomenol and I really don’t remember the lyrics back then being so awful. Perhaps they slightly modified them?
Comment by cindy — December 21, 2009 @ 2:43 pm
The first time I ever heard “Santa Baby” was watching Madonna’s video of it on MTV at the group home where I worked at the time. I found it appalling.
Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 2:45 pm
“But, gasp, it’s *DEAN MARTIN*.”
(Which is enough reason to ban it, IMHO.)
(Yes, I know other people sing it too.)
Comment by queuno — December 21, 2009 @ 2:45 pm
I attended my parents’ ward Christmas party last week and someone had clearly googled carols then printed them without scanning the lyrics first. One of the carols had the original 19th c. lyrics complete with two very racist verses–the chorister got caught completely caught off guard, skipped to the last verse, and then decided to cut the rest of all caroling short, get us singing “HERE COMES SANTA CLAUS” at a hysterical clip and have the ward Santa distract us with happy children before anyone could reflect too much upon the disturbing genesis of the song.
Too bad I can’t remember which one it was right now. I’m going to have to recall and then hunt up those lyrics, because they were just atrocious–and to make things extra lovely, the missionaries had African American investigators at the party. At least the ward isn’t all white to begin with.
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 2:46 pm
I’m so glad you wrote this, Stephanie. I hadn’t ever heard the song all the way through until recently, and I was complaining to my wife that it sounded like a date rape song. It’s nice to know I’m not alone. I agree with you completely–it’s no good.
Comment by Ziff — December 21, 2009 @ 2:49 pm
I need to defend this song.
I will preface this comment by saying I am on the feminist spectrum a die hard, complete and total proud feminist. I don’t find rape jokes funny, I don’t think sexual harassment charges are usually “over reactions” or people being “too sensitive.”
That said: Out of context, I see how this song SOUNDS creepy.
But it was made famous by a movie called “Neptune’s Daughter” and when it’s sung, it’s in the dead heat of summer. So, the guy is being flippant and not really trying to “trick” her, or trap her. (It’s not even really a Christmas song per se) He’s teasing and making up a reason that he knows she won’t buy for her to stay.
Sorta like:
“have some cake”
“oh no I shouldn’t”
“it’s calorie free”
“well in that case….” When the person eating the cake KNOWs it’s not calorie free.
Out of context I admit it sounds like a “No doesn’t really mean no” message and that it means girls really want to be coerced etc. But I don’t believe that is the original intended message.
In the movie scene they are being playful, she has as much power as he does, and although you could probably argue the game they are playing has anti-feminist undertones (as most movies of that era do), it is presented as a two- sided flirtation from the beginning and she is not stuck or trapped at all.
Comment by Zara — December 21, 2009 @ 3:06 pm
@Zara: That’s good to know
Comment by Emily T — December 21, 2009 @ 3:09 pm
That is good to know, Zara. But at this point, is it still appropriate to play the song in a Christmas context? Or is it time to let it expire?
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 3:10 pm
Oh no, Beth, I accidentally deleted your whole comment! (I’m new to being tyrant over my own guest posts. Hee hee) Would you repost the rest? Thanks!
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 3:13 pm
Way to delete my totally valid comment before. I’ll go ahead and repost it without the name calling.
Asking that the song be recycled is the same as asking that it be played over and over again. Learn the meanings of the words you use. Maybe then guys will actually listen when you say no instead of assuming you don’t know what the words means.
Comment by PCT2 — December 21, 2009 @ 3:14 pm
Well, PCT2, I don’t take kindly to being called nasty names.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 3:15 pm
Yes, Stephanie! I agree. How is this even a Christmas song?
Comment by Risa — December 21, 2009 @ 3:22 pm
[Significant deviation from Santa It’s Cold Outside: Hmm, the song to which I referred in #18 is I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day, by Longfellow. It’s not as bad as I recall–the first line is just so atrocious that it freaked us all out. Longfellow wrote it during the Civil War and was pro-Union. The second out-of-date verse actually describes the conflict quite well, but the very unfortunate wording of the first line makes it sound as though he were a slave-owning racist bum:
Then from each black, accursed mouth
The cannon thundered in the South,
And with the sound
The carols drowned
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!
It was as if an earthquake rent
The hearth-stones of a continent,
And made forlorn
The households born
Of peace on earth, good-will to men!
———————————————-
Back to your regularly scheduled programming.]
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 3:28 pm
“So, am I overreacting? DH walked in the door from work singing, “Baby, it’s cold outside!” I immediately said, “I don’t like that song anymore. It’s about men not listening when women tell them no and leads to date rape”.”
Yes, you completely overreacted by responding to your husband that way and by writing this article. OH NO A GUY OFFERED A WOMAN HE LIKES A DRINK!!
Grow up. The song is about a woman worried about what others will think if she stays the night at this man’s house. IT IS NOT ABOUT RAPE.
Comment by PCT2 — December 21, 2009 @ 3:33 pm
Thanks Stephanie-heard this in a store the other day and thought-is it just me that thinks this is insidiously abusive trash-particularly as I was enjoying the vocal.Combination of the two was quite chilling.Women like you help me get my bearings.Yay.
Comment by wayfarer — December 21, 2009 @ 3:35 pm
I agree, Stephanie. I’ve always hated that song. And I don’t think it should get a pass because it was written before GHB. It isn’t as if there weren’t previous drugs used to incapacitate women, and the use of alcohol to aid in seducing a woman is an ancient strategy. In prior decades (centuries) the sort of pressure which the male singer uses to get the woman to stay may have been blown off, but that doesn’t mean we should give it a pass. Regardless of the origin of the song itself, it really just isn’t appropriate.
(I recently used the song flippantly on FaceBook, putting myself in the woman’s place, and mainly to make a reference to how cold it was here in SLC at the time, but that doesn’t change how much I dislike the song…I often use songs I dislike on FB as parody)
Comment by Derek — December 21, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
Just a thought, PCT2 (re: #24), but doesn’t recycle actually refer to taking something no longer usable and turning it into something new? So if we recycle a Christmas song, we’re not playing it over and over again, but getting rid of what we don’t like and turning it into something else.
Also, I’ve never actually looked at the song as the guy trying to talk the girl into staying when she really doesn’t want to, but more as her actually saying no but meaning yes. I know that’s something we don’t encourage, and as feminists are apalled by, but I really think that’s what the song is about. The girls wants to stay, but doesn’t think she should. I don’t know, I could be wrong. But I think it’s a cute song and I’m one of the few, apparently, that actually looks forward to hearing (and singing) it at Christmastime.
Comment by Allison — December 21, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
Yes, Allison, that is what I was referring to. Reuse would be playing the same song over and over again. Recycling Christmas songs is getting rid of the old and bringing in the new.
PCT2, did you read that other post I linked to in the OP? After you read it and all the accompanying comments, let us know if your perception of the post changes at all.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 3:49 pm
#20 Interestingly, the film follows the romantic escapades of two sisters. While Ricardo Montalban is wooing Sis #1, a female executive played by Esther Williams, with “Baby It’s Cold”, Esther’s sister is simultaneously trying to back Red Skelton into a corner and breathe on his glasses while she sings. Does this make it better or worse?
Comment by Moniker Challenged — December 21, 2009 @ 3:52 pm
Has anyone thought about sending this opinion to places where widespread change would actually take place, such as radio stations?
@Allison: I like to sing this song too and have never taken offense to it. I understand where others are coming from but you should know you’re not the only one who likes it!
Comment by Emily T — December 21, 2009 @ 3:55 pm
PCT2–I’d suggest that you “grow up” your critical reading skills, if all you can read into the lyrics is a guy offering a girl a drink. Context and rhetoric matter. I don’t think it’s about date rape (at least not intentionally), but in its current context it’s certainly not about respect, either.
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 3:57 pm
I’m not too keen on this song, but the girl in it always sounds to me exactly like she’s looking for an excuse to stay and blame it on the guy. I’m not trying to justify the guy (who, in the versions I’ve heard, always sounds like Dean Martin), but why the heck doesn’t she pick up a phone and call the family to whom she refers in the song? Or why doesn’t she just put on her coat and start walking?
Once again, no justification for the guy here, but the girl has always struck me as not being honest with what she really wants. Her words and her actions don’t match up at all. And that’s not right, either.
Comment by A Paperback Writer — December 21, 2009 @ 4:00 pm
I should know better than to feed a troll but:
This has to be the most classless thing I’ve read in ages. PCT2, you better learn some civil discourse in a hurry or I’ll bounce you out of here with pleasure.
Comment by Reese Dixon — December 21, 2009 @ 4:01 pm
@Janet post 35.
Here is one of the biggest problems with “reading into” things. YOU CAN READ ANYTHING YOU WANT INTO WHATEVER YOU WANT. I could look at this song and read into it that the woman is raising all these objections so she’ll have an excuse in the morning if she regrets what she did. My article could go something like this.
Fellow masculinists,
I really hate this song “Baby it’s cold outside” because it is teaching young women to throw out all sorts of objections to sleeping with men they desire so that they’ll have an excuse in the morning should they regret their actions, or worse yet, if their friends find out.
I can see it now. A woman wakes up and remembers that she gave in to her carnal desires and slept with the man and then realizes that all her shallow friends and family will gossip about her now. Wanting no ownership of the guilt she’s now feeling she wakes the man up and says, “I told you I didn’t want to stay the night. You tricked/forced/convinced me to stay and ignored what I said about not wanting to.” Because she raised dubious objections the night before she’s free to place all the blame onto the man and rid herself of the guilt she now feels, this despite the fact that she wanted to sleep with him.
My wife came in while I was posting this blog entry and said to me, “boy, it sure is cold outside.” to which I replied, “don’t try to place all the guilt on me for us having sex last night!!!”
See? Reading into things is easy.
Reese this is perfectly civil; if you boot me it’s because you don’t actually want a discourse.
Comment by PCT2 — December 21, 2009 @ 4:27 pm
Frank Loesser (of Guys and Dolls, and Tin Pan Alley fame) originally wrote the song and performed it at parties with his wife. According to what I recall from an NPR spot a while back, its incorporation into Neptune’s Daughter was a little bit of a betrayal or let down as it was “their” special song.
Its dated, and reflective of the values and norms of a different era. But I can’t really say with a straight face it is about date rape.
Comment by ola senor — December 21, 2009 @ 4:37 pm
PCT2 - here’s the way civil discourse works. When it starts, no one tells the other side that they are stupid or bovine. When you do that, it sets up an adversarial rhetorical space. It’s hard to recover from that, especially when you’re telling a bunch of women that they really want sex and when they say no, they’re just trying to create plausible deniability.
That said, I don’t think that the song is intended to convey a scene of date rape. But it certainly is unnerving. After all, at the point that this song was written, the woman in question would certainly have been the one to suffer socially from the activity in question, and the man is urging her to throw caution to the winds. There has been - and to a great extent still is - a double standard when it comes to sexual activity. The man is congratulated, and the woman is shamed. There’s also something kind of creepy about the man urging her to stay when she’s said she wants to go. Also, even if her resistance is half-hearted, he’s still trying to break it down.
So no, I don’t think it is “about rape” per se, but I do think that it is a creepy song that portrays a horrible relationship between the sexes. I mean, she clearly isn’t whole-heartedly jumping into bed with him, and he’s trying to persuade her to. I’m not thinking that’s really something we want to be listening to as a way to get into the Christmas spirit. Besides - given our particular social context - it does seem to catch up some of our current concerns about date rape. It might be one of those things that was perfectly acceptable at the time, but since cultural contexts have shifted, it no longer is.
Comment by Beth — December 21, 2009 @ 4:45 pm
Well, I suppose. You cannot, however, defend every reading with a decent critical argument–and therein lies the rub, as any poor crushed freshman rhetoric student will tell you. I would argue that your interpretation lacks merit, for instance, because whether or not some woman makes up excuses so that she can abdicate herself of guilt should she have post-sex regret, the guy STILL must take “no” to mean “no.” ABSOLUTELY. If the idiot of a woman really meant “yes,” well then, she was an idiot. So on the surface, Ockham’s Razor would–it seems to me–imply that the speakers mean what they say.
Still, your reading could supply an interesting Freudian interpretation given a bit more support (not, understandably, what one does on a blog), and certainly Freud would probably agree with you! (Freud, of course, also famously argued in Dora that all woman secretly want to be raped.)
Certainly the “anything can mean anything” gambit has gone a bit far in a post-modern culture, but we haven’t completely evacuated semiotics, logic, critical thinking, etc. from the world. People still have to make a case for their argument. You made one for yours. I don’t find it especially compelling given the evidence presented in the text. Nor do I think the song is “about” date rape. It does, however, seem to be less about romance and more about creepoid power-game seduction bordering on abuse. Not rape, but not romance, either.
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 4:54 pm
PCT2 — Beth and I are not intentionally ganging up on you, I promise. We cross posted, It is kind of funny though, because we grew up in the same town and then, the weird world being what it is, wound up teaching rhetoric at the same University half-way across the country a decade and a half later.
She had the nerve to finish her dissertation before me, though, so she wins
.
Apologies for not addressing you by moniker in that last comment, by the way, since so doing is one of the rules of civilized discourse and all (oh, the irony!) I kept typing it R2D2, erasing it, and then never got back to typing it right!
Ok, I have to go stand in line at the Post Office, an endeavor guaranteed to ensure some Christmas cheer, dont’cha think?
–Janet
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 4:58 pm
[Beth, since you’re here–are you going to be in WA? I can’t recall and my phone are all dead (don’t ask). Got a message from your brother R. that he’ll be about and thought I should lump together the visits.
Or will doctors even allow you and your prego belly on airplanes at this point?
BTW, your traditional Christmas gift of something striped is soooo not getting there this year. I’m stockpiling obnoxious quantities of gender-reinforcing pink objects with which to spoil your firstborn.]
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 5:01 pm
@Beth post 40.
You’re changing the argument now. You’re trying to change it from Stephanie saying the song is about date rape, to saying that the woman could have suffered socially from sleeping with the man and how there is a double standard for women.
If the song is not “about rape per se” then it is not about rape. Period.
Also, it is interesting that the first thing that came to the Author’s mind is date rape. I hear this song and see a bit of playful spousal back-and-forth. She’s playing hard to get, and he’s chasing her. The author hears the song and she sees a woman trying to escape a rapist. I suppose our views on a given material are colored by the lens of our experiences.
Comment by PCT2 — December 21, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
Stephanie –
As a child I always thought “I saw Mama kissing Santa Claus” totally advocated adultery. I still wonder about letting kids hear that song, not because there’s anything inherently wrong with the song but because other children might hear it the way I did. Same thing with “Grandma got Run Over by Reindeer” (which should be ditched for a long list of reasons).
And while I might not agree with you 100% that the song in question here is *about* rape, it IS about toxic gender relationships, and should you want to start calling radio stations in your area, I’ll get on board
.Muffin would probably scream/sing “Happy Birthday Jesus!” into the phone at 8.000 decibels until they stop.
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 5:07 pm
PCT2 — I think the fact that you “hear” the couple as married would definitely color your reading of the text in a more positive manner. If they’re married, though, why would the dude have to leave anyhow? that makes very little sense.
Blog threads often evolve, as I’m sure you know. It’s perfectly normal for people to agree with a portion of a post’s thesis without agreeing with its sum. In this case, many of us agree that the song in question reflects damaging sexist norms from an outdated time which, when taken too far in today’s world, could lead to rape even if the song does not necessarily imply the completed act. In other words: we think the song stinks and doesn’t deserve air time.
If blog threads just consisted of “Yay” or “Nay” they’d be pretty durned boring, now wouldn’t they?
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 5:10 pm
@ Janet post 46
I wrote “spousal” because I couldn’t think of a similar word for unmarried couples; relational just didn’t seem right. I should have been clearer.
Comment by PCT2 — December 21, 2009 @ 5:14 pm
Please allow me to clarify. I didn’t say that this song is about date rape. I said that this song muddles up the waters about a woman saying no, and that uncertainty is what can lead to date rape.
So, if we want a culture where no means no, we need to stand for that. The scenario PCT2 outlined is very plausible and likely happens often. So, we need to reject songs that glorify this “game” of women teasing by saying no.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 5:20 pm
Nicely said, Steph. While a guy has an absolute moral responsibility to take no for an answer regardless of what games a woman may be playing, girls shouldn’t be taught to play the durned games! I can remember being taught to play “hard-to-get.” I think in the case of, say, my YW leaders they actually meant that I should absolutely mean “no” about kissing early in a relationship (and certainly everything else
) but the rest of the culture? Not so much. Shudder, shudder, shudder. I also vividly recall being stridently told by one of the very women who told me to play hard-to-get that I also needed to stop reading “so many damned books and stop letting boys know I was smart, because no woman ever got a boyfriend by having a brain.”
Lovely.
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 5:32 pm
PCT2 - Cultural context is important, don’t you think? In 1940 whatever it was that this was written, it seems silly to talk about date rape, since it wasn’t a concept that anyone at the time would label. But in 2009, which is when this discussion is happening, it can be. What we’re running into is that old discussion of authorial intent and modern interpretation. So the author? Probably not describing date rape because he/she wouldn’t have had the concept in their head. But the song played on a radio station today? Might be seen to be. Because the context has shifted, and people’s sensibilities have changed.
At any rate, I think it’s a creepy song that I wouldn’t want my soon-to-be gender-reinforced and pink-clad firstborn listening to. I think - and please do go read the link to the discussion Stephanie referenced in the OP - that if she says no, plying her with alcohol and begging her to stay is skeezy, and could, in this day and age, easily be seen to veer over into rape, depending on what happened after the end of the song and how much alcohol she consumed. Also, it would depend on relevant state law. I myself am glad that the information in the song stops, and we aren’t given a complete hypothetical situation. It’s quite enough as it is.
[Also, Janet, given the dissertation defense and the impending baby, you’re getting your Christmas presents in March. Even the ones from last year.]
Comment by Beth — December 21, 2009 @ 5:33 pm
Beth:
. If you just wait until May, we could just pretend the whole thing is a combined celebration of my defense and Muffin’s 3rd birthday (finger’s crossed on that defense thing).
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 5:35 pm
Admittedly, I have never listened to all of the lyrics of this song before today. Also, I have never found myself in an awkward situation where I felt pressured into some physical interaction. I just always said “yes”. (KIDDING! Major kidding. It is my sick sense of humor) Seriously speaking, I really haven’t ever had a bad encounter so maybe I am not sensitive enough to this issue, but I have always really liked this song.
I’ve seen it enacted in a few performances and it was more along the lines of the girl DOES want to stay, but is being flirty and playing hard to get, somewhat. There’s smiles and winks and all kind of “yes” behavior. I think sometimes girls and young women are conditioned to not feeling as bad for their OWN desires (and actions) if they are chased down and talked into it.
And I can see how that can cause a dangerous blurring of the lines when the genders misunderstand each other. I guess the difference between an innocent situatuion and a bad one boils down to considering all factors: the relationship, the dating history between the two individuals, the body language of the girl (flirty and silly vs. awkard and resistent) and the verbal use of “no”.
I’m no expert here and I could be wrong. But if there is some trust between the two and a girl is being flirty and a bit seductive, doesn’t that change the meaning of “no”?
*Ducking, now*
I like the post, Steph.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 21, 2009 @ 5:59 pm
Yes, then no doesn’t mean no anymore. And if we want it to mean no, we have to reject the game of playing hard to get by saying no but meaning yes.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 6:06 pm
#53 - Steph, agreed. I am glad you mention this because I really need to clear some things up with my sons and daughters.
I have talked to all of them about relationships and dating and sex, etc. I have also had SERIOUS talks with the boys about no meaning no. But I have failed to SERIOUSLY talk to the girls about not engaging in this cat-and-mouse chase game and playing hard-to-get, all the while sending mixed messages. I guess I have been a bit naive on this front because of my own lack of communication with my Dad about these topics growing up and the (fortunate!) fact that I never encountered a situation where I felt any real pressure to do something I did not want to do.
Thanks for educating me.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 21, 2009 @ 6:20 pm
PCT2 - If this is your idea of civil discourse, I don’t think I’d like to attend your Thanksgiving dinner.
Calling names, whining about deleted comments, YELLING ( you understand that all caps mean yelling in blogland right?), and then that last bs comment about guys respecting no when people learn to use words correctly? Did you think that one through? Rape is understandable when someone uses “recycle” incorrectly? When you were incorrect about the incorrect usage?
Not a good first impression.
We welcome discourse. For a good example of this, you could look to our oft praised Stephanie, but you could also look to those last few comments above me. Lawyer Lady didn’t agree, so she said “I’ve always liked this song. Here’s why.” Without any name calling, nasty comments, or yelling. And then she and Stephanie were able to politely discuss the female responsibility in this type of encounter.
Observe, learn, live, or you’ll swiftly wear out your welcome.
Comment by Reese Dixon — December 21, 2009 @ 6:42 pm
I feel the same way about “Baby its Cold Outside” as I do about Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, Kiss Me Kate and a whole host of other vintage entertainment. I agree with pretty much every feminist critique of them. But heaven help me, I like them, I really do. I try to use the whole, oh they’re just a product of their times, what are you going to do justification, but really I’m just a hypocrite.
Comment by Genavee — December 21, 2009 @ 6:51 pm
I read through the comments and didn’t see anyone mention the version sung by Rod Stewart and Dolly Parton. That’s the one that really makes you laugh. I wanted to sing this with my wife at the ward party, but change sides, with her trying to win me over. I love it when she chases me, after all, that’s how we courted, her chasing me.
Comment by Kevinr — December 21, 2009 @ 7:14 pm
@ Reese post 55
So my using caps to emphasize the points of my comments bothers you so much you feel the need to call attention to it? you might need a thicker skin if you’re going to be on the internet long.
The author and several posters on this blog are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The singers are portraying, through song, the delicate tug-of-war that exists between a man pursuing a woman and a woman wanting to be chased a little. This is totally healthy and to relate it to something as sinister as rape is shameful. In my opinion the author should be ashamed of her article and the way she treated her husband.
Comment by pct2 — December 21, 2009 @ 7:22 pm
pct2 - you obviously did not read the link as asked, did you? There is a whole history to this conversation you are missing.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 7:23 pm
Kevinr, yes that version is by far the worst. There is just something about a very old woman singing how her mother is going to be worried that irks me.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 7:24 pm
Ha ha. I didn’t even read this the first time through in your comment. Oh gosh, just go away already.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 7:25 pm
I mean, seriously, how dare I actually tell my husband when something bothers me or I find it offensive? Don’t I know that “nice” women only smile and nod and agree with perpetuating a game men like to play that can potentially lead to situations of date rape for other women? Silly me to forget my place.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 7:34 pm
Hee. That’s cute. I’ve been on the internet long enough to know standard rules of etiquette. Net-iquette if you can bear the tweeness of that word. And if you were around a little longer, you would understand that on messageboards from one end of the internet to the other, using all caps means you’re yelling.
Comment by Reese Dixon — December 21, 2009 @ 7:41 pm
boy, pct2 is giving me flashbacks to Mr. “Women like to be forced” from that prior discussion.
BTW, pct2, if you want to create some emphasis, perhaps you could use the handy buttons above the composition box to use italics and bold. Either do a fine job at emphasis without being quite as obnoxious as all caps. But even then, the way you seem determined to insult Stephanie and the concept she is raising will probably get you booted before long.
I could be a little more charitable to the notion that the song is a “delicate tug-of-war that exists between a man pursuing a woman and a woman wanting to be chased a little” if there was anything in the woman’s lyrics which remotely coquettish or flirtatious.
re: 53
A crucial point.
Comment by Derek — December 21, 2009 @ 8:14 pm
okay, i owe everyone an apology because I did not know that caps meant yelling - but I am really behind the times. I use it all the time to add emphasis, but I guess I need to use italics for that, or bold.
Hahahaha. I look back at some of the times I have used caps and it is funny to look at it as yelling. See? Not only am I a nerd, I’m a dork, to boot.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 21, 2009 @ 8:18 pm
Lawyer Lady:
we tend to be more forgiving of people who
1. use the all caps thing sparingly (we all use it for one word occasionally–I know I do!
2. aren’t using it to yell, you know, at someone
3. aren’t otherwise behaving obnoxiously.
PCT2:
Certainly I’ve been as courteous to you as one could possibly be–perhaps that’s why you’ve elected to ignore my comments entirely after an initial invitation to engage courteously with you. That invitation has become increasingly more and more ironic as you’ve displayed either your ignorance or deliberate flouting of online manners.
Comment by Janet — December 21, 2009 @ 8:32 pm
I dont’ like baby it’s cold outside…whether the man is trying to change a no to a yes, or the women is saying no and wanting him to fight for her ot change her mind…. its icky.
As for I heard the bells…I dont’ know if this has been covered elsewhere but it was written after Longfellow’s only son died in the civil war. It represents his process of mourning and reconciling his feelings of loss with hope and love of God. The whole message, even of those verses isn’t racist, but the way he refers to people is racist-though common at the time.
santa baby-icky flirt for bling
this may be revealing my lack of sensitivity but I detest the little boy begging so he can buy his mom a pair of shoes song. ICK. really shoes are that important to her right then? when she knows she has no money? She doesn’t want to leave that with the husband to help take care of her family? Are we really sure the dad isn’t going to take them back in and trade them in for a case of beer and a gumball for his kid and say good job buddy, take him home and split the six pack with his healthy wife….
um ya
huh
back to your regularly scheduled sexist rants.
Comment by britt — December 21, 2009 @ 9:34 pm
britt, I hate the little-boy-begging-for-shoes-for-dying-mom song, too. Ick.
Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 9:36 pm
@ Derek post 64
You don’t see anything flirtatious about this song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJWSDeP4k-M
It’s a flirty, fun song.
A lot of you posters, especially Reese, are pointing out that the context in which the song is heard is important. You’ve all said, in not so many words, “in a 2009 context the song is about a man asserting his will over a woman. Rape.” If context is so important then you should be able to understand that a girl can say no in a flirtatious or joking way and what she really means is “try harder” or “I’m just playing hard to get”.
This song is about as innocent a song as you can get. In my humble opinion you all need to relax a bit and stop trying to find a women’s rights issue where there isn’t one.
Comment by pct2 — December 21, 2009 @ 9:41 pm
What song is the little-boy-begging-for-shoes song? I’m not sure I’ve heard that one.
Comment by stacer — December 21, 2009 @ 10:18 pm
Here’s a link, stacer…
http://www.elyrics.net/read/n/newsong-lyrics/the-christmas-shoes-lyrics.html
Comment by Lorian — December 21, 2009 @ 10:28 pm
Britt — Have you seen the latest MoTab Christmas DVD? (It’s advertised on DeseretBook right now). Ed Herrman does a reading of the story behind the song and the song (all written by Mack Wilberg). I found it very, very moving.
(I wasn’t terribly keen on the stuff from Brian Stokes Mitchell.)
One song I find awful is “Happy Christmas”. It’s so depressing. “I hope you had fun….the road is so long.”
Comment by ErinAnn — December 21, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
I listened to that song (Baby its cold) just last week and thought the same thing. Ha! Anyway, I agree that I probably have been reading this website too much. Oh, I super hate that shoes song. I also agree. Please don’t buy me shoes when I die!
Comment by Katie — December 21, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
I haven’t seen that EA. I just keep thinking, if I’m dying tonight, DO NOT leave and take jr shopping for shoes! I am NOT taking care of the children, I’m dying…stay here and hold my hand and whisper sweet nothings…. but now you’re telling me there is an actual story?
huh
I’ll look into that. Carry on sensitive shoe buying people.
Comment by britt — December 21, 2009 @ 10:44 pm
Another song that bothers me is “Do They Know Its Christmastime“? I get that it’s about remembering the rest of the world when we have so much, and I know it is very popular from that standpoint, but a few of the lines irk me:
We’ve had discussions about portraying Africa and other countries to our children this way - all gloom and doom and misery. It just doesn’t sit well with me. Plus, there is no way I would thank God that I am here and they are there.
On the other hand, being the sentimental sap that I am, I like the Christmas Shoes song. The mom didn’t ask for the shoes. The little boy is thinking of what he can do to show his mom that he loves her. It is from his standpoint, and little boys think things like, “My mother needs these shoes to look pretty to meet Jesus” (or my mom really wants this cheap ring or this wooden statue of an obscure man from a garage sale so we won’t think I forgot about her when I bought junk for everyone else). I find it sweet.
(And said statue is one of my favorite treasures because all I can think of when I look at its hideousness is my son with big blue eyes saying, “You didn’t think I’d forget about you, mom!” with his face filled with love. Oh, those sweet boys)
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 10:49 pm
Oh I don’t like the do they know song either.. Yes some of them know it;s christmas, their having a braii at the beach..wanna come?
Others don’t even care to know about christmas, because they’re… GASP not christian, and not into celebrating santa.
and the thank God it’s them…yuck. How does that prayer go? can we apply it in other situations? I’m so glad so and so was killed and not me! Wow I’m so grateful the tidal wave killed them and not me! Thanks God! yuck. I get that the actual concept was be grateful for what you have…
I like thinking of other people, but as has been documented, they may need a water buffalo more than some Mac n cheese and a coke
Comment by britt — December 21, 2009 @ 10:58 pm
re: 74
I see how you’re reading it, Stephanie, and I can see why that line bothers you. But I see it more as a “There but for the grace of God…” kind of thing. I personally love that song.
Then again, I can’t stand the maudlin, cloying shoes song.
Comment by Derek — December 21, 2009 @ 11:04 pm
I like You’re a Mean One, Mr. Grinch. If anyone asks me to sing a Christmas tune at a party, that’s my party tune!
Comment by a man Zed — December 21, 2009 @ 11:04 pm
Looks like my last post didn’t make it through so I’ll repost it again.
Many of the people commenting on here emphasize how important it is to understand this song in the context of 2009. They point out that in 2009 convincing a woman to stay when she’s said “No I probably shouldn’t” is akin to rape.
If you’re going to listen to the song in a contextual manner then you must, in fairness to logic and analytical thinking, accept that a woman saying “no” can mean different things in different situations. In fact, a woman saying no playfully to a husband might actually want him to continue his current course of action.
You can’t say we should listen to the song in a contextual manner and then say we can’t listen to the word “no” in a contextual manner without sounding like a hypocrite.
Comment by pct2 — December 21, 2009 @ 11:09 pm
Hmm, the first sentence of my last post is redundant. My bad.
Comment by pct2 — December 21, 2009 @ 11:09 pm
The thanking God its them instead of you reminds me of the Zoramites climbing up on the Rameumptom to pray to God:
I know that is not the spirit of the song, Derek. That line just always makes my eye twitch.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 11:10 pm
pct2 in comment 69
Oh wow, back to square one.
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 11:17 pm
My eye is starting to twitch . . .
Comment by Stephanie — December 21, 2009 @ 11:21 pm
@ Stephanie post 82
So to you it’s ok to interpret the song in a contextual manner, but a man flirting with his wife/girlfriend is incapable of picking up on when a girl is being coy with him?
That’s amazing that the ability to know what the speaker (or in this case song writer) really means is reserved only for feminist Mormon housewives.
Comment by pct2 — December 21, 2009 @ 11:22 pm
For what it’s worth, I just played it to my husband and asked him what he thought, and he said “it’s a bit date-rapey.”
Comment by Beth — December 21, 2009 @ 11:31 pm
Hiya Britt, here’s one:
‘I thank you, God, that I am not bad like other people. I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I am not a philanderer. I’m certainly not like that this tax collector here! I fast twice a week, and I pay tithing.’
I don’t know a Christmas song incorporating those words, but “Do They Know Its Christmastime” comes pretty close to the same sentiment.
PS Hey Britt, I caught up with some of the posts you made while I was away and I have to say I’m impressed. Even though we would disagree on some issues, you really seem to take other viewpoints into account. Very refreshing! (Not that my approval matters. I’m just sayin’…)
Comment by a man Zed — December 21, 2009 @ 11:34 pm
I, too, hate that horrid, kailyaird (it’s a Scots literary term), sappy Christmas shoes song. Ugh.
I do, however, love “Happy Christmas (War Is Over If You Want It).” Of course it’s tinged with sadness; it’s an anti-Viet Nam war song. But it’s a song wherein you’re supposed to find something to DO about reducing the sadness, unlike the shoe song, where you’re just supposed to cry.
And, although I’m sure I’ll insult someone by saying this, I’ve never cared much for “Away In A Manger” because there’s no joy in the song. It’s always seemed to me to be about feeling sorry for baby Jesus and the conditions under which He was born instead being about of the joy that He was indeed born. Give me “Hark, The Herald Angels Sing” or “Joy To The World” over that one any day.
Comment by A Paperback Writer — December 21, 2009 @ 11:55 pm
Sigh, pct2. You are really working at missing the point (and doing a good job at it, too). Allow me to repeat a portion of my OP:
I don’t play coy like that. I think that if we want to help society avoid date rape, we need to stop playing coy like that because some guys are dense enough to think a woman is playing coy when she is really saying no. And songs like this just reinforce that idea.
Good night. I am done wasting my time with you.
Comment by Stephanie — December 22, 2009 @ 12:41 am
“Happy Christmas (War is Over)” is one of my favorites as well. And my vote for most underrated/overlooked Christmas song: “I believe in Father Christmas.”
Comment by Derek — December 22, 2009 @ 12:46 am
Okay, to be fair, the link in the OP had lots of comments, and perhaps that is why, pct2, you have failed to grasp the context in which this “No means no” conversation started.
To make it easier on you, begin reading about here. Then perhaps you can get a better feel for how many people participating in this discussion say “no” when they mean “yes” (or even “maybe”).
The evidence is quite clear that, for many of those participating here, when we say no, we mean no, and we are teaching our children those same values.
And for people teaching their children (both boys and girls) that no means No and that “entrapping” anyone, no matter what the means (social pressure, alcohol, drugs, physical force, spiritual salvation, whatever), is wrong, this song would be better of left out of the family Christmas hits mix.
Comment by LRC — December 22, 2009 @ 12:46 am
Stephanie, hear hear.
Comment by Janet — December 22, 2009 @ 1:00 am
Stephanie, just the other day my sister and I were making Christmas cookies and we were listening to the James Taylor Christmas album when “Baby, it’s cold outside” came on. She said she didn’t like this song because of it’s implications. I said, you mean date rape? We skipped to the next song. You know you’re right. Obviously a certain commenter has issues and maybe even feels guilty about his own behavior. I say we ignore the trolls and maybe they’ll go away.
Comment by Risa — December 22, 2009 @ 1:04 am
I don’t know, I don’t know.
I can absolutely agree with the normative idea that “no means yes” thinking should not be encouraged. The potential for misunderstanding — going all the way to date rape — is far too high.
On the other hand, I think that many people — including some number of women — continue to foster the “tease” dynamic of interaction, where “no” is sometimes intended to convey the message, “try a little harder.”
It’s been a long time since I’ve been on the dating scene, but I see the general dynamic all the time with my kids. Sometimes when my daughter wants some attention, she’ll run past you squealing “don’t tickle me!” and of course wants you to chase her and tickle her. For that matter, the courting and flirtation scenes in any number of pieces of classic literature basically follow the same script.
So I’m not sure that it’s realistic to hope to eradicate the teasing, run-and-be-chased dynamic in flirtation. On the other hand, laws should absolutely punish coerced sex.
The problem is that many men are either too dense to know the difference, or worse, they do know the difference but unscrupulously hope that the potential confusion will give them plausible deniability to try to take liberties.
Comment by Kaimi — December 22, 2009 @ 2:54 am
(Numbers here are my points, and aren’t referencing previous comments by number)
1. No should always, always, always, always, always be taken as “no.” Period. If it’s being said as a game, the game will stop one way or the other if you always take it at face value.
2. I love this song, and I find its message problematic. I love the counterpoint of the two parts, and how he keeps coming up with a response to everything she has to say. But it’s a seduction song, and I don’t particularly like being a witness to a seduction.
3. Rape? Not hardly, but I can understand how people who have been raped would find it triggery. That’s not really the song’s problem.
4. For those who like the song in general, I really like the version I just grabbed from Lady Antebellum. It might have been on the free Christmas album on iTunes — I don’t remember.
Comment by Blain — December 22, 2009 @ 2:56 am
Ugh, this is a theme I HATE throughout our hymns. In We Thank Thee O God for a Prophet, we pray for others to be smitten (not converted, but smitten), and smugly rejoice that others will never be as happy as we are. Yeah, not so Christlike, IMO.
As for this particular song……
I almost don’t want to chime in because PCT2 is being so obnoxious that I want to throw away all reason and just disagree with him. But for the sake of honestly representing myself….
There are certainly lyrics in this song that are huge red flags (”Say, what’s in this drink?” Clearly problematic, whether today or the 1940s). But in some ways I can relate to the song.
When dating, didn’t you ever say to each other, “We really should stop”, but then you pushed the line just a teensy bit farther? Okay, maybe I’m the only heathen who did such things, but I still think one of the greatest forms of allure is the forbidden fruit. I was always WAY turned on by the mutual “we shouldn’t but really really want to” feeling. (Don’t worry, I’m not advocating fornication, we never jeopardized our temple worthiness.) There have definitely been times where I FELT like the woman in this song. “I should go because I probably shouldn’t do this, people will think bad things, it’s not wise…. but I really, really, really want to stay.”
Not to say that no doesn’t mean no. But in a healthy relationship, it’s possible for two responsible people of similar ages to feel pulled in multiple directions.
However, the biggest distinction I see with this song and my own experiences was that the men I dated always absolutely respected my limits, unless I gave explicit consent to exceed them. If I said something was not okay, they never ever ever did it anyway, or tried to convince me to change my mind.
I would be more comfortable with this song if he said, “Well, I really really want to do this, but it’s more important to me that you are comfortable, so let’s go find you a cab.” But that’s not quite as catchy, I guess.
Oh, and, don’t hate me, but the Christmas Shoes song still brings tears to my eyes pretty much every time I hear it. Can I get out of the self-loathing if I just blame it on the birth control?
Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 3:53 am
Um, in other words, after reading my long and lengthy post…..
No still means no. Even if someone does secretly want it to continue. It absolutely must never continue unless both parties are explicitly ready for it to do so, in an open, healthy way. If either has enough reservation to make them think twice or say no, they’re not ready for the next step.
So no means no.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 3:58 am
long and lengthy…. .I’m really on one tonight!
Also, I’m currently 5 of the last 6 most recent comments. Time for bed, I think.
I missed you crazy people today.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 3:59 am
Such a timely post, since just the other day I was having a chat about this song with a friend. We both agreed that in some contexts the lyrics are pretty creepy, especially the “what’s in this drink” part. I find this version much better because the roles are reversed (a small woman trying to sexually coerce a tall man is inherently less threatening) and of course because I am a Dwight Schrute fan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hEJQbEYjRg
Comment by Chelsea — December 22, 2009 @ 8:40 am
a man zed…thanks. It’s nice to know people read. Many smart people I like, disagree with me.
I don’t know Chelsa, how do we say no means no, then say, except it;s okay if a gal doesn’t take a guy’s no as no? I get that it;s less threatening to women, but I’d rather both genders be safe in saying no.
Blain, I like the counter point and the sounds of their voices, but that almost makes it worse. It is a technically interesting song. It’s just a bit date rapey.
Comment by britt — December 22, 2009 @ 9:08 am
Hmmm… I always thought that line was sarcastic. Like the artist is saying, “you stupid people that would rather thank God you aren’t poor instead of helping people who are poor…” or something like that…
Comment by Enna — December 22, 2009 @ 9:47 am
Maybe a little off topic - sorry - but I am glad a few of you brought up the I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus song. It always disturbed me when I was a kid. I wasn’t too sure about the concept of infidelity, yet the idea of my mother kissing anyone other than my Dad (epsecially in the sneaky type way the song is set up) just left me feeling weird.
It leaves a lot of awkward and tricky explanation for a parent if they are trying to preserve both the idea of Santa Claus and fidelity.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 22, 2009 @ 10:56 am
Please do not engage with the troll.
Comment by Reese Dixon — December 22, 2009 @ 11:49 am
Forgive me if this has been talked to death already, but I get talked into things I didn’t want to do initially all the time. Why should sex be any different? Why is a yes after some persuasion any less effective than a yes right away?
Comment by jimbob — December 22, 2009 @ 12:42 pm
I think it was pretty damn obvious that LRC was not speaking for all of womankind when she said “for many of those participating here.”
Sorry Reese, when the troll is being ridiculously stupid, its too hard not to throw eggs at it.
Comment by Risa — December 22, 2009 @ 12:44 pm
#105 - JimBob, there’s a difference between talking someone into sex with whispering sweet nothings, kissing, etc. and plying them with alcohol and lowering their inhibitions. Guess what? Under the law, a drunk person cannot give consent. And not giving consent is rape. Sorry, (some) men to take away your most trust-worthy seduction technique.
Comment by Risa — December 22, 2009 @ 12:47 pm
britt (99) “A bit date rapey” is now my new favorite expression.
Comment by Chelsea — December 22, 2009 @ 12:50 pm
Re 105 - sex is different than eating too much pie.
Comment by Stephanie — December 22, 2009 @ 12:54 pm
Oooh, about “Santa Baby,” I had a horrible experience with that song at my mom’s RS Christmas party about 10 years ago. My parents moved to this ward after I was married, so I didn’t grow up there. They had a woman about my age who had grown up there provide the entertainment, singing karaoke-style to several secular Christmas songs. Fine. She was actually a pretty good singer. But when she got to “Santa Baby,” she SAT ON THE BISHOP’S LAP and stroked his bald head. It’s hard to imagine getting too much more inappropriate and embarrassing to everyone present. I’ve never been a big fan of that song — materialism and all — but since then I’ve had a horrible averson. This year my husband pointed out a potential double meaning in “hurry down the chimney tonight” - yay, exchanging material goods for sex, awesome. That’s really what Christmas is all about.
I also really, really hate “Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer.” Especially when it’s sung in an elementary school Christmas program. Sick.
And about “Baby, It’s Cold Outside,” I agree in principle. But when Ella Fitzgerald and Louis Armstrong sing it, it’s so sweet and humorous that I still can’t resist it.
Comment by Ana — December 22, 2009 @ 12:56 pm
There is verbal language and there is body language. Legally a verbal no means no. In relationship situations the body language and other cues need to match the verbal language or people will think the no is really a maybe, or a not right this minute, or a don’t give up.
I think that there are ways to back up a verbal no so that everyone concerned knows what the word means. Otherwise someone will make it sound like seduction.
Comment by Claudia — December 22, 2009 @ 1:08 pm
Claudia, the problem I see is that some guys really are dense enough to just not get the cues. And in a society like ours where casual sex is becoming more and more common and people don’t wait until they really know each other well to have sex, two people playing that dating game might not have enough experience with each other to read the cues right. So, it can be really easy for a guy who wants sex to say “Well, she said no, but she acted like she wanted it” based on whatever his perceptions of that are. Or to purposefully choose to be dense. It completely negates her motivations or her cues or anything.
As long as we leave the door open for a verbal no possibly meaning yes, I think we leave the door open to more date rape.
But, I think I personally have stated my position 100 times. Let’s just recycle this Christmas song and move on. Let’s replace it with “Here with Us” (my personal favorite Christmas song this year).
Comment by Stephanie — December 22, 2009 @ 1:29 pm
I question the assumption common in our culture that casual sex is becoming more and more common, but that’s beside the point. Slightly less tangential is the issue of “getting the clues” (or, to put it more academically, interpreting the metatextual data–because I’m pretentious like that…
). It has been suggested on several occasions that guys (or at least a large percentage of them) are too dense to read the signals. Is it an issue of gender/sex, or of humanity? Are women better at reading the clues, or does she just see what she wants to see? For example, if the woman engaged in this “give-and-take” of flirting just sees the actions of the guy as innocent, playful flirting, and then is surprised when he suddenly seems interested in more, is she also guilty of not having seen the clues? Or how about the stereotypical situation in which the woman thinks that her beau is about to propose, only to be shocked when he breaks up with her. Was he simply a jerk, or did she only see what she wanted to see?
Comment by Derek — December 22, 2009 @ 1:41 pm
Clearly, then, I’m doing one or the other incorrectly.
Comment by jimbob — December 22, 2009 @ 1:44 pm
LL I don’t like “I saw mommy kissing santa either” for the reasons you say.
Stephanie, I like that song too…my favorite this year is breath of heaven… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icilgwdHiZg
Comment by britt — December 22, 2009 @ 1:44 pm
109 and 114.
Possibly the funniest two comments I’ve ever seen online.
I’m dying here.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
Derek, true. Women can be just as clueless as men. But, women are more conditioned to not just come out and say what they mean - particularly if they are afraid it will “hurt” the other party.
Comment by Stephanie — December 22, 2009 @ 2:03 pm
#114, jimbob - hysterical…
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 22, 2009 @ 2:06 pm
Jimbob, public school sex ed?
Comment by britt — December 22, 2009 @ 2:07 pm
I think that gets to the heart of the issue, Stephanie. We need to tear down the cultural expectations that women need to be nice and demur.
Comment by Derek — December 22, 2009 @ 2:54 pm
Here With Us is great, and Joy Williams has an amazing, amazing voice.
Comment by Kaimi — December 22, 2009 @ 3:51 pm
For me, if they left out the one line of the song, “say, what’s in this drink?” I would probably be okay with the rest of the song. Because I’m a flirty person, and I know the give-and-take of a flirtatious conversation. But I don’t think putting something in someone’s drink to make them more compliant to sex is something that is funny or is something to be sung about in a Christmas song.
As I mentioned before, I’m an Adoption/Birth Parent caseworker. Just today I met with a birthmother who has to deal with the ramifications of having her drink tampered with and being raped. She has to suffer the physical and emotional toll being pregnant puts on a body. She has to suffer the social ramifications of being single and pregnant. She has to deal with everyone’s opinion about making an adoption plan for this baby. She has to deal with the physical and emotional pain of labor and delivery. She has to deal with the emotional consequences of placing her baby for adoption. No matter how this child was conceived, she loves him. She has to deal with all these consequences because her date wanted to have sex and had to drug her drink to get it. So no, I don’t take this song lightly because songs shape and influence our culture. No, I don’t think this song is funny. Nor do I appreciate the comments from the troll about how women say no but they really mean yes. Please, come to my office and tell this birthmom that and see what happens. Oh and she tried to press charges, but the police didn’t believe her because of all the above cultural implications we mentioned. She said no, was drugged and raped, but she really meant yes. And we wonder why only 2% of rapes are ever prosecuted.
Comment by Risa — December 22, 2009 @ 3:59 pm
#98 - I didn’t think the Selma Blair and Rainn Wilson video was funny. His body language indicates a genuine desire to get out of there, and fast, and she dominates him like a predator. He’s not flirting back.
Women can take unwanted liberties with men, too. These days, women are more and more aggressive, so I think it’s important that we consider the issue from that angle as well.
Comment by Kevin Owens — December 22, 2009 @ 5:53 pm
Also, I hate the Christmas shoes song. It’s too schmaltzy.
Comment by Kevin Owens — December 22, 2009 @ 5:53 pm
How about instead of tossing it completely, rewrite it for our time? IIRC the original lyrics to Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas were extremely bleak and depressing, and Frank Sinatra changed the lyrics to what they are today. Maybe the same thing could be done here?
Comment by Steve — December 22, 2009 @ 6:46 pm
99 — My point 3 addresses that. I will admit that I haven’t heard the line “what’s in this drink?” and that could be especially triggery for someone like Risa describes in 120, but it’s just not sounding date rapey to me in any way — I think the line is meaning that she’s being more susceptible to the seduction that’s going on than she expected or wants to be seen as, and either wondering if her drink has more alcohol than she expected or is just looking for an excuse. I think it’s important to see the song as it’s own thing when passing judgment on the song, and I’m hearing a lot of that in this thread. And what I’m hearing is a great deal of projecting personal perspectives over the top of the song, which doesn’t strike me as fair. If all people were saying is “I don’t like the song” or “I don’t want to listen to the song,” then those are fine. But when it’s “We should get rid of the song,” then that’s not okay with me.
As I said, I have problems with what everybody else is having problems with. They don’t overcome my enjoyment of the song. There are lots (and lots) of songs (and films, and books, and….) that I enjoy but have problems with. I particularly enjoy 60s protest music, even though I disagree with a number of the political positions implied or stated in them — I like the innocent desires in them, and the angsty rebellion in them as well — just as one example. Most songs require a nuanced understanding of what they’re talking about if we’re going to be fair to them.
I like “Santa Baby,” but only when sung by Madonna. Her version definitely presents a character who is brazen and not to be respected which isn’t as clear when Eartha sings it. You can almost hear her popping bubble-gum as she builds in what she wants from the sable to the platinum mine and, finally, blank checks.
I don’t like the Christmas shoes song, nor do I want to hear the Christmas in the Trenches song more than a a few times each decade. I prefer “Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas” with the lyrics from “Meet Me in St. Louis” over the “from now on” lyrics. I love “Do They Know it’s Christmas.” My favorite version of the 12 Days of Christmas is the Bob and Doug McKenzie version, although the a capella version I saw on Youtube is a good second place. I love Faith Hill’s “Where Are You Christmas” and “A Baby Changes Everything.” I love “Mary, Did You Know” when it’s not sung by Mark Lowry (although I love Mark and he wrote it). And “Little Drummer Boy” can make me cry, because I’m a poor boy too that has no gift to bring that’s fit to give a king either, but he smiles at me anyway.
Comment by Blain — December 22, 2009 @ 7:08 pm
123 — The original version was so depressing it was re-written before it was included in Meet Me in St. Louis. I prefer that version because I like the message of “Things are very chaotic and uncertain this year, they’ll be better next year, but let’s make Christmas good this year anyhow.” I find the “from now on” unrealistically optimistic — have all your problems been miles away since you heard it? YMMV, of course, but that’s where I’m at.
Comment by Blain — December 22, 2009 @ 7:11 pm
Stephanie,
I hate that song, Do they Know it’s Christmastime.
Quite honestly, the answer is Yes. In some places, they are very aware of Christmastime, yes, even in savage, impoverished Africa. (Sorry, imagine that in a really ironic tone of voice.) Africa is a CONTINENT, not a country. And yes there are orphans in need of food and women in need of help and men in need of work and lots in need of medical care, but I think it really gets old when Africa is used as the universal symbol of poverty and ignorance.
Lol. Never would have minded this song two years ago, before we started our adoption process… two lovely Ethiopian daughters who were very aware of who Santa Claus was… because He was a tradition in Ethiopia!
Comment by sare — December 22, 2009 @ 7:59 pm
Re. 126 -
Ethiopia is pretty much the most ancient Christian nation on earth.
Their rock churches are about the coolest Christian architecture I’ve ever seen.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 22, 2009 @ 8:49 pm
Congratulations Sare! I love adoption. I hope you share your story some day. I worked with an agency (as a professional) who does Ethiopian adoptions. Literally the most beautiful children I have ever seen.
Er, sorry for the threadjack. Baby, it’s cold outside still sucks. I also hate, Santa Clause is coming to town, because basically it threatens children into behaving.
Comment by Risa — December 22, 2009 @ 9:48 pm
Thanks.
ALso sorry for threadjack.
Baby it’s cold outside for me is like chocolate… something I know I shouldn’t like but I hum it under my breath for like a week after I hear it on the radio.
It actually brings back a memory I had of a date I went on once, and then had to stay the night because I couldn’t drive back home because the snow covered all the street signs. The second curb I slid into, I turned right around and headed back to his place. Slept on his couch. Nothing happened.
Still not sure my sister (the equivalent in the song of the “maiden aunt”) or my roommate believe that nothing happened.
Sigh.
Comment by sare — December 23, 2009 @ 12:44 am
Sorry. To clarify about the chocolate… I SHOULD like it. EVERYONE should like chocolate. I guess what I meant was I shouldn’t eat as much of it as I have been eating lately.
Comment by sare — December 23, 2009 @ 12:44 am
Skipping to the end to say that I love “Baby it’s Cold Outside.” I think it’s a fun song. Admittedly, I am speaking as someone who has had this conversation before - talked out of going home because it was too snowy - and being worried what my parents and neighbors would think :).
I can see how, when read in this context it comes off as creepy, but I love, Love, LOVE the Barry Manilow & K.T. Oslin version. And with that, I can see my credibility disintegrating, so I will bid you goodnight.
Merry Christmas Eve-Eve!
Comment by Eris — December 23, 2009 @ 4:43 am
PS - Last week my 4 y/o learned the words to “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus” at school. She said, It’s about a mommy who kisses Santa. Mommy, you would never do that.”
I had never thought of a kid taking that song literally - but she was really bothered by it.
Now I’m going to bed.
Comment by Eris — December 23, 2009 @ 4:47 am
Let’s just ban Christmas all together.
Comment by cyclingred — December 23, 2009 @ 6:21 am
I love “Do They Know It’s Christmas?”, particularly the coda: “Feed the world . . . let them know it’s Christmastime”. To me, that’s the thrust of the song.
I’ve never not liked “I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus” - it’s a cute song, whether or not Santa was in fact “Daddy”. John Mellencamp put a lot of gusto into his take on it, part of the first A Very Special Christmas album. The version I hear most on the radio is the one by the Jackson Five, which has all the usual Motown production values, and the other brothers ribbing Michael that he’s putting them on, etc. (Considering their mother is a Jehovah’s Witness, I don’t think she would have had anything to do with Santa.)
Comment by John Taber — December 23, 2009 @ 9:24 am
John,
I’m Okay with that message. I just think that they could have done it better. When I went to Ethopia to pick up our girls, it was very apparent that the people there are very proud of their heritage and their country, and are insulted when characterised as an “impoverished” nation that has “problems.” They think of themselves as a normal country with normal struggles and issues that they’re doing their very best to deal with, and foriegners with agendas and “do-gooder” attitudes aren’t really recieved all that well.
I bet it’s like that in a lot of African (and South American, and Asian, etc) countries.
Maybe the song, because it was written by Americans, could have focused on the problems we have HERE and talk about feeding the people right next door who maybe won’t “know it’s christmastime.” That would seem a lot less patronizing, and a lot less like, “We don’t have problems here. We’ve got to focus on everywhere else, especially Africa because man, do they have problems.”
Comment by sare — December 23, 2009 @ 3:11 pm
Band Aid (the group that recorded “Do They Know It’s Christmas?”) was British (including Irish - Bono took one of the lead vocals). They were the inspiration for USA for Africa several months later (”We Are the World”).
Comment by John Taber — December 23, 2009 @ 6:13 pm
sare, excellent analysis.
Absolutely true. In fact, I highly, highly suggest this excellent short speech called “To Hell with Good Intentions.”
Not only do we often not know what we need and prescribe the things we think will be good, but many of our efforts are just trying to make them more like us. We spend as much time trying to “educate” (ie: westernize) them as we do trying to treat disease or share food.
Plus, it was largely the action of our European predecessors that got most developing countries into the hardships they’re dealing with, and much of that was done with the “civilizing mission” attitude that “Do they know it’s Christmastime” reeks of. It’s understandable that people are a little bit bitter about any type of “intervention” we might conduct.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 23, 2009 @ 6:24 pm
Natalie K.
I found the speech you recommended fascinating, and I agree with the whole “attitude problem,” but I can’t call it a “good” speech. Nowhere did the speaker explain the “damage” about which he raved. I wanted more specifics on what the damage was and how it was being caused. I’m still curious, in fact, and will have to do some research on the subject.
I believe your point is that you dislike a colonialist mentality (we, the good, white, civilized folk will help you brown, poor, uncivilized folk whether you want it or not), and I agree with you there. But I don’t really feel the speech was thorough. Thanks for making us aware of its existence, though.
Comment by A Paperback Writer — December 23, 2009 @ 8:34 pm
Paperback Writer, I actually agree with you. I don’t by any means think that we all need to live 100% by Ivan Illich. I usually don’t sign on 100% to any single philosopher or thinker’s ideas.
But, I do think his are remarkably fascinating, and very very important to consider. And considering how much his view (which is admittedly extreme) is totally OFF the radar of most American minds, I think it is even more important to highlight it and let it inform (but not dictate) our views.
For example, I would like to forward a copy of the speech to Bill Gates.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 23, 2009 @ 10:31 pm
Smiles to you, Natalie K.
Comment by A Paperback Writer — December 23, 2009 @ 11:32 pm
“They think of themselves as a normal country with normal struggles and issues that they’re doing their very best to deal with, and foriegners with agendas and “do-gooder” attitudes aren’t really recieved all that well.”
My favorite book, to date (and I read a hell of a lot) addresses this very thing. It is called Poisonwood Bible. It is a phenomenal (i am so tired I don’t even care if I spelled that right) book with great insight. And the setting is Africa.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 24, 2009 @ 12:10 am
LL!!! I love the Poisonwood Bible!!!!!
Comment by Enna — December 24, 2009 @ 12:25 am
I’ll add my recommendation for Poisonwood Bible too! It’s on my (short) list of faves.
Also, one of my favorite quotes of all time is from that book. It is one of the few things I’ve ever read that describes how I feel about reading. It’s from Ada:
“But are there books, books there are! Rattling words on the page, calling my eyes to dance with them.”
Happy sigh.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 24, 2009 @ 12:46 am
Um, PS: Goodreads friends? I’m here
:).
Comment by Natalie K. — December 24, 2009 @ 12:53 am
When Lot’s daughters ply him with drinks and date-rape him, that doesn’t seem less threatening. Interesting thing is, under modern american law, Lot’s the one that would do time for statutory rape.
Odd that a ward christmas party would feature a drinking song.
Comment by pat the destroyer — December 24, 2009 @ 3:52 am
Since when do Ethiopians not need food? Why should an international (it was not just American) band withold food from a starving ethiopian just because it offendas the vanity of some hypothetical well fed one?
Disasters happen. After 9.11, charity poured in to the US from around the world, including from Africa. One nomadic Masai tribe donated a dozen cows for funds to help New Yorkers recover. I hope that no one was ungrateful.
Comment by pat the destroyer — December 24, 2009 @ 4:03 am
First off, Merry Christmas Eve, everyone.
Secondly,
Pat, of course lots of people need food. Ethiopians, Chinese, Americans, Canadians all have vulnerable groups who require assistance. There may be more of them in one country than another, and organizations that provide aid are likely doing some good. Some do more good than others. But to view Africa as a cliche of poverty and ignorance, or to be constantly pointing out Africa when sending a message about poverty and ignorance, is rather insulting, don’t you think? How would you like to be the target of, say, a Muslim rock group sponsoring the need for religion for all the heathen Americans? (well, probably nobody here would care. We’re kind of in a bubble that way.) I’m not saying there’s no need, I’m just saying it gets kind of tired, and that song in particular triggers those tired feelings for me.
I also feel like a lot of people focus on helping foreign nations and forget about those right next door who could use help. A lot of people tell me my two girls are “lucky” because we adopted them. This bugs me too. They’re lucky, sure. But so are we… very, very lucky to have these two beautiful girls in our home who came from a rich, proud culture and heritage and I really look forward to being able to foster a love of their country and a pride in their background. I worry that, because of all the messages of “Luckiness” and African poverty that we are inundated with here, they will get the wrong message.
Comment by sare — December 24, 2009 @ 2:03 pm
I agree that we could show more love and care to our actual neighbors. But it seems crass and cynical to criticize charity however directed. Especially when the recipients were actually starving. I recommend you look at the historical context of when that song came out. There was a specific crisis. The song talks about THIS year at christmastime.
I don’t think that the song says anything about ignorance, Sare.
Fixing the false analogy, If some Muslim Rock group filled an actual need, food, clothing, shelter, in America, I would be grateful, and I would want to slap any ungracious American that spurned the gift out of nationalism and vanity. Its not our business to tell someone else how to direct their charity.
Comment by pat the destroyer — December 27, 2009 @ 3:29 pm
[…] the original: Feminist Mormon Housewives » Christmas Songs Past their Prime Share and […]
Pingback by Dating Book — December 27, 2009 @ 9:09 pm
“do they know it’s christmastime at all.”
Pat, I understand what you’re saying. But you don’t understand what I’m trying to say.
I think you should go read the link Natalie K put up.
Are you actually saying that people who object to unasked-for charity ought to be slapped? Geez. Remind me never to become the possible recipient of any charity from you.
Comment by sare — December 27, 2009 @ 9:21 pm
Um, if that charity is going to be affecting my life, I damn well do have the right to tell them how to direct it. I’m a very firm believer that we do not operate in a vacuum. Our actions affect our community, and the community at large (which includes each of us as individuals) has a right and responsibility to be actively involved in promoting its best interests in a just and equitable way.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 27, 2009 @ 11:41 pm
It is our business to understand charity. Charity should be loving and helpful. Sending a bunch of fur parkas…however well intentioned would not help ethiopians…neither would white rice help starving people (unless the goal is to make them die faster).
Charity does involve understanding the specific needs of the people you are trying to serve…that’s one reason heifer international works…it seems unfathomable to many in the US, but some towns would be miraculously helped by having a water buffalo.
I do try to be grateful when people send me sugar. I am grateful they thought of me, but it isn’t kind and it widens the divide because I then KNOW they don’t know me at all.
Comment by britt — December 28, 2009 @ 9:00 am
Sorry this is so late.
Funny enough, this song isn’t even about Christmas. It won an Oscar for Neptune’s Daughter. The first part was a guy and girl singing (with the guy chasing the girl), but then the second part of the song switched it where the girl was chasing the guy.
For some reason, the charm of the original movie always makes me like it. But I was always a sap for an Esther Williams movie.
Comment by tkangaroo — December 28, 2009 @ 10:04 am