I just finished writing a long, involved explanation on my own blog of my issues with Santa. Suffice to say, not too many people agree with me, but I stand by it. The short version: teaching kids about Santa sends them some disturbing messages about generosity, and worthiness to receive generosity.
I can see where people are coming from when they don’t like the santa “lie”, but I don’t buy it. IWe have , however decided that we won’t lie to the kids if they ask if there is a real santa. Our son asked me when he was 8 or 7 if santa was real. I asked him what he thought. He said that he thought I was Santa. I affirmed that his theory was true. He was kind of bummed for a bit, but he got over it pretty quickly.
When my nephew was 4, my sister told him that santa wasn’t real, when he was 8, she decided she felt bad for taking that “magic of childhood” away and worked out an elaborate scheme to get him a gift he knew hadn’t come from her.
We don’t lie to our kids, but do what Ian does, if they ask, we’ll ask them what they think and go from there. My 8-year-old hasn’t asked yet, so either he knows and is just playing along, or he still believes. I’m not sure which.
I have a neighbor who told her 4 or 5 year old the truth because the poor girl was having panic attacks over the idea of a stranger coming into their house.
At our ward party, Santa came and played the piano while we all sang christmas songs, he also talked to us and said that he was going to tell us a “reverent story” and we should all be reverent now. Then he told us about Jesus’ birth. It was an interesting mix of santa and jesus. (the funniest part was when he had kids raise hands if they wanted to sing, and then said, “any opposed?”
I don’t have huge problems with the Santa lie, but DH and I have talked about not going along with it for our kids. The other day at my work, a little kid ran up to his mom (maybe 5 years old), and said franticallly, “Mommy, is Santa real?” She said outright, “yes, of course he is sweety.” The kid responded by sticking out his tongue at his older sister. I am so NOT comfortable with telling outright lies like that.
What I think we’ll do is portray Santa as symbol of gift-giving. I’ll tell them we say a gift is from Santa if we don’t know who it was from. So getting something from Santa means you have someone who loves you very much.
Also, the other day at work (I work at a hotel), one room of people needed THREE BELLMAN CARTS to get all their stuff down. They came down with three carts full literally top to bottom with a ton of JUNK for Christmas gifts.
This has made me decide that my kids are going to get necessities (socks, underwear, etc.) and one cool, meaningful gift for Christmas. They’ll probably hate me, but I still like the idea.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 24, 2009 @ 2:13 pm
Santa (at our house) brings a small present, and then stockings. Stockings have: a toothbrush, candy, nuts, socks, tape, an orange, sometimes a can of olives, bandaids, and whatever other small things strike my fancy.
Sometimes I miss my mom’s stockings because it’s not quite as exciting to dump it out when you’re the one who filled it. (One of these years I’ll make my Mister do them)
The Santa problem goes beyond lying to your kids–although that’s bad enough, in my opinion. I think it’s important, as a parent, to be able to look your child in the eye and tell him or her, “I’ve never lied to you about anything”. You’re going to need that trust later on…like when they’re teenagers.
But, some other issues I have…
If Santa isn’t real, then why is God real?
What makes someone worthy? We teach kids that Santa brings “good” little boys and girls presents…but what about poor kids? What about non-Christian kids? Are they less worthy? It’s setting a dangerous precedent, IMHO, to equate worthiness with material possessions. We see the harmful effects of this attitude in adults all the time…
How does teaching kids about Santa teach them about generosity? Real generosity requires careful thought, love, and, often, sacrifice. Santa doesn’t have to go without to give you a gift…and if you don’t receive that gift, does it mean that Santa doesn’t love you? Or that your parents love you, but just can’t afford it?
I haven’t had to deal with the issue, but I’m ambivalent about Santa Claus. I personally really like the sort of old mythic, magical aspects of Christmas, the things which hearken back to faeries and spirits and other folk traditions. There is something fun about pretending to believe in those sorts of things, and to see the sense of wonder in children believing them. OTOH, if we are going to celebrate the 25th as the birth of Christ, I think we should try to minimize the consumeristic aspects of the holiday, into which Santa has been co-opted. And I can certainly respect those who don’t lie to their children on principle. My SiL says that when her parents admitted Santa wasn’t real, it made her question God and Jesus–an eminently rational reaction. So I’m not sure where we will ultimately stand.
re: 5
This has made me decide that my kids are going to get necessities (socks, underwear, etc.) and one cool, meaningful gift for Christmas.
Sounds smart, and it’s similar to what we’re planning. We’ve heard several people follow the rule of “One thing they need, one thing to read, and one thing that’s fun, and that’s it.” Sounds sensible.
I’ve seen some parents go to extreme lengths to push the Santa-really-is-real theme. I’m sure you have all heard the “if you don’t believe in Santa you won’t get anything for Christmas” line. I don’t really like this approach.
It would bother me more if I was trying to teach my kids to have faith in a GOd that you can’t see, hear etc. This is why. When I was 7 or so and I found out there was no Santa. I was heartbroken. It never occurred to me that if there was no Santa there was also no Easter Bunny, no tooth fairy, etc. So, I kept feeling disappointed over and over as I discovered they were all fictional. And then, I distinctly remember having the thought “If there is no Santa, Easter Bunny, etc., there probably is no God either”.
May seem silly now, but I felt like my parents had given me all these magical ideas that I loved that were slowly taken away. So, yeah, I’m not a big Santa fan. But that’s just me and I acknowledge I’m kinda weird…
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 24, 2009 @ 2:32 pm
I’ve always felt that you don’t necessarily have to believe that Santa is real for the story to be fun and magical. IMHO once they’re old enough to ask you directly whether or not Santa Claus exists, there’s no point in attempting to continue the charade — it will just make the whole thing more upsetting/confusing later.
With my kids, I didn’t actively tell them that Santa is real nor did I go out of my way to tell them that Santa is not real. I just kind of let them figure it out on their own. This year is the year they figured it out (they’re 6 and 8). I wrote the story of my kids’ adventures with belief in Santa on my blog here.
I think parents have to do what they feel is best for their family.
One christmas when I was little, santa brought a small suitcase full of doll clothes, and my doll was sitting in the middle of it all. I pictured santa working his magic making her come alive so she could walk down the stairs and into the suitcase. (Several years later I noticed scraps in my mom’s sewing table that matched all the doll clothes.)
At the time, it was magic, and I am still grateful to my parents for giving me a magical childhood. I didn’t feel like it caused trust issues, so for our family believing in Santa was wonderful.
Lawyer Lady (#9)–I don’t think you’re “kinda weird” at all! Your reaction sounds perfectly rational to me, and I think it’s one lots of kids have…and lots of adults remember with profound sadness. The underlying myth, here, is that something has to be pretend to be magical. Isn’t it better to help kids discover, through their own senses, and powers of logic, the real magic in the world?
Christmas is an extremely hard time of year for my family; it brings up a lot of hard memories (my dad died right before Christmas when I was a teenager), and a lot of hard feelings about religion. I know it’s supposed to be the other way around, but in mine and Mr. CJ’s universe, it’s the non-believers who’ve pretty much rejected the believers. I honestly have no emotional investment in what anybody believes (or doesn’t believe), and I would never try to convert anybody, but, unfortunately, the divide remains. Every year I hope my mom will come join us on Christmas, and every year she refuses.
Many of my atheist or agnostic family members trace the start of their doubts to learning that there was no Santa. It ruined Christmas for them. I support them in their personal choices 100%; what makes me sad is that they feel like religion betrayed them, and let them down.
Ooh, Derek, I love that tagline. That just might be it.
With my “one gift” idea, I have some flexibility. For instance, when I was a kid, all I needed was books, so my “one gift” might have been a collection of books.
But I really hope to spare my children from the intense materialistic lust I experienced as a kid. Do y’all remember watching TV commercials? I used to see the overabundant commercials and just feel like I NEEDED that stuff. I needed a “My Size Barbie”. I needed a talkboy. My Christmas list was 3 pages long, and I just ached for all that stuff.
I really hope to spare my kids that kind of silliness somehow.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 24, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
I am so sorry to hear about your Dad. It’s hard enough losing a parent, but losing one as a teenager right before the holidays - that just makes me sad to hear.
I don’t trace my atheism to my “loss” of Santa so much as I just had doubts about God and religion starting a shockingly young age. And that was just another factor that came along during those years. I still looooove Christmas time - it in no way ruined this time of year for me. The music, the cooking, the decorations, the lights, the giving, the family get-togethers - that is all still wonderful and fun.
When my kids were small I did just what someone up the thread did as well. I sort of mildly referred to Santa from time-to-time and never really emphasized him but when they asked me if Santa was real, I told them “no”, and went on to explain the symbolism of Santa and secret, selfless giving, etc. Seems to have turned out pretty good so far. But who knows? My kids may be in therapy one day for any number of parenting tactics I have employed.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 24, 2009 @ 3:28 pm
LL–your kids are lucky to have you, and I’m sure they know it! For what it’s worth, you sound like a great mom and I think you’re setting a great example for them. There are few enough strong, and strong minded, women in the world.
I never had an “Oh no, Santa doesn’t exist!” moment. Actually, I don’t remember really believing in Santa at all (I do, however, remember snooping around with my older brothers looking for the presents before Christmas, so I must have known my mom was Santa from at least 4 or 5 years old).
I still profess to believe in Santa though; it’s just that my concept of what “Santa” is has changed. He isn’t the guy in the red suit; really he’s my mom (well, I suppose now he’s me). He’s real in a way–he’s a persona that we take on when we lovingly put those presents under the tree for our kids.
Some people have mentioned that kids finding out there’s no Santa might begin to question God, and there may be something to that. I never really associated belief in Santa with belief in God when I was a kid, but strangely as I’ve gotten older my concept of God has become more and more like my concept of Santa.
Awww, wow, CJ, thank you for those nice compliments. Very nice of you.
[Okay, i know this is off topic, but I can’t help myself - fellow Texans, it is snowing outside and has been for 3 hours!!! (DFW area). It hardly ever, ever snows here in Texas and so long as I have lived here it has NEVER snowed in December - especially Christmas Eve. My kids are beside themsleves with excitement. Oh, I guess I am too, obviously. Merry Christmas Eve!!!!]
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 24, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
We’ve taught our kids that Santa is a fun game that people play at Christmastime, where people buy gifts for people they love and pretend they came from Santa. Our oldest is 7 now, and she gets it. We remind her often that Santa is part of the game, and that while knowing the “Santa surprise” can make the game even more fun we NEVER tell other people the surprise.
(It is a surprise, rather than a secret, because we have also taught her that we do not keep secrets and that if anyone tells her that she ought to keep something secret - especially from us - she should tell us right away. I surprise, however, is something that is secret for a little while but will eventually be shared - like a birthday present.)
This year she came to me and in a very concerned voice asked me what she should do if someone asks her if she believes that Santa is real. We talked about it for a few minutes, and I suggested that a good response for that question is, “Santa is a fun part of Christmas!” It is true, and it doesn’t mean that she has to spill the Santa surprise.
My concern was more practical than principle. Since she knows that her Christmas gifts come from mom and dad and not some mystical character who magically manufactures whatever her heart desires, she can be better prepared for the eventualities of not receiving every toy she’s ever seen. So my vote would fall somewhere between “a fun imaginary character” and “a dangerous lie”.
Comment by incognito — December 24, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
As far as the Santa-God link, the people I know seem to fall into a few different categories:
1. Santa is “real”, but you can’t see him, touch him, or prove his existence…God is “real”, but you can’t prove His existence, either. So if Santa isn’t really real, then, logically, God isn’t, either.
2. If they’d lie to me about this, what else would they lie about?
3. Christmas, as embodied by Santa, is a hoax. If Santa is a fake, then everything he supposedly represents is a fake, too. Once Santa is out of the picture, everything else about the holiday seems tarnished.
When she was almost five, dd persistently asked if Santa was real. I did the standard “What do you think?” And she would not be dissuaded, but I could tell she wanted him to be real. I finally had to lie or spill the beans. So I told the truth.
The next day, I overheard her defending her belief in Santa to her older friend who had never believed. I was quite surprised.
This only lasted about a year, and after that, the game was up. She just really wanted to believe, but I don’t think she ever really did.
This taught me that kids will believe what they want to believe. It doesn’t matter much what we say. Except the bald-faced lies–yeah, that just seems wrong.
Who cares if you lie to your four-year-old about Santa being real? The real question we should be discussing is at what age should kids be told the truth. Let the kids believe when they are young.
That sort of magic is precisely what I do like about the idea of Santa and traditional Christmas lore. Great story!
re: 13
But I really hope to spare my children from the intense materialistic lust I experienced as a kid.
That’s a big part of my rejection of the commercialism and excess of Christmas. I grew up in a family where my Mom got me just about everything I wanted for Christmas. And the more I got, the more I wanted. Looking back, I can’t believe how many toys we had…and I think the sheer abundance of it kept me from really appreciating any of it, and it definitely crowded out any spirituality. “Yeah, yeah, thanks for baby Jesus–bring on the loot!”
Derek- we’ve talked to our kids about how santa has a lot of kids to get presents for, so we need to be careful about how much we ask for, and realize that we probably won’t get everything we want. They have LONG lists of things they want, but they haven’t been disappointed by the things they’ve actually gotten. (so far anyway)
Incognito (#19)–I think we’re going to borrow your approach! That’s a really good way to deal with the issue, and also addresses Mr. CJ’s big concern, that our kids will be “those kids” who spoil it for everybody. As he said to me the other night, “I just picture sitting at home, minding my own business, when the irate phone calls start pouring in. ‘Your child ruined Christmas for my child FOREVER!’”
My kids are 8 and 6 and they believe. They are starting to question. They asked if we believe and why rich kids get more than they do this year. We love Christmas and the idea of Santa, so we make up stories and lie. I told them I believe in the magic of Santa. We also told the kids we talked to Santa and since we expressed a desire for more simple and creative toys, he respects that. Santa only brings a couple things and candy in the stockings, so most gifts are from each other. We focus on what a wonderful idea Santa is. Someone who gives to others and how we can do that for others. They understand that the store Santas are not real, but that other little kids may believe and we don’t need to take that away.
My kids love the magic of it all and I am sure in a year or two they won’t believe, even now it is a tentative belief. As I family, we joke and try to trick each other all the time. I don’t see my kids being shocked to find out that Santa isn’t what they thought. I can see them wanting to play the part for others.
I figured out Santa wasn’t real when I was 6 and noticed that “Santa’s” handwriting on the gift tags was identical to my mom’s. When I asked her if my suspicion was correct, she told me it was. I was the oldest kid, and although my next youngest sibling is only a year and a half younger than I am, it seemed like for several years I was the only one who knew the secret. I kind of liked it and had fun watching the amazement on my little brothers’ faces when they walked into the living room on Christmas morning.
I like Natalie K and Derek’s plan to limit Christmas gifts. That was my plan this year, too, but it is not easy! My daughter is 1 1/2, so it’s not like she asked for anything. But I would keep seeing things at the store that I knew she would love. And it’s pretty easy to argue that she “needs” new clothes and some new toys so she doesn’t get bored around the house, and some new CDs so she will keep quiet in the car, and a snowsuit and boots so she can make a snowman. But don’t even get me started on the fear mongering that goes on in the “educational toy” industry! You start to think, maybe that baby laptop will give her an edge when she gets to school, or maybe this Baby Einstein video really will magically teach her to read! At least we did not get any toys this year that require batteries or make sounds. At this point, there are quite a few gifts to put under the tree, but a lot of them are used books that I bought for 50 cents each at the library.
Hmmm. Again LL is making me think, and today there is not enough time for trivial stuff like that!
But… The Santa myth had nothing to do with my drift to being agnostic. I do remember trying hard not to accept the obvious, that Mom and Dad were the ones who provided all the toys.
Each year my daughters and grandchildren spend the night at our home on Christmas Eve. Santa delivers right here and it is a ball. After breakfast they all leave and we are free to bask in the quietness. Last night I watched my older daughter tear up (she’s 36) when she told some people that she had never spent Christmas Eve and morning without her sister (Eris) next to her and couldn’t imagine it any other way. Me either.
Happy holidays to all of you. Whether you believe or not, I hope your day is everything you wish for.
Before Mr. CJ and I head out for Christmas Eve festivities with his family, I just want to say, Merry Christmas! I hope everyone has a wonderful night tonight, and a wonderful day tomorrow. Thank you to all the bloggers, and regular commenters, who make this such a great, welcoming forum. I’m so glad I found you all!
Merry Christmas to all! And yeah, you’re all pretty awesome. You’ve saved my sanity on more than one occasion. Thanks for that, and have some cheerful holidays.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 24, 2009 @ 5:47 pm
I’m years from having kids, but I like what my parents did with us regarding Santa, and I think I’ll do the same if I do have kids. It’s rather like what #19 does. From the beginning, they were clear that Santa was not real, but that the whole story is a fun part of Christmas. It was the same with the easter bunny and tooth fairy. The only problem was that they forgot to keep explaining this and my younger siblings actually believed in the tooth fairy for a while. Oops.
I love Santa. I only have the fondest magical memories from when I believed in him, and I was not heart-broken or disillusioned nor concerned that my parents had lied to me. None of that even occurred to me. I know that it is an issue for a lot of people, but for me believing was golden and shiny and covered in chocolate. And growing up and finding out the truth was fun too , because now I was mature and in on the secret. Yeah, okay so I had an enchanted childhood, what ya gonna do.
It’s funny though I remember discussing Santa with my good friend T, she was shocked that I would teach my kids to believe in Santa, I explained how sweet my memories of believing in Santa were and she’d never thought of that before, she grew up Muslim in Brooklyn, and to her Santa was some creepy old white guy who would break into your house in the middle of the night and the whole idea of it seriously freaked her out. I could totally see that. (and I’ve always thought Santa Clause is Coming to Town is the creepiest song) So even though she’s Mormon now her family doesn’t do Santa at all. Which makes perfect sense to me too.
I think both ways make sense, and both are totally valid.
We tell the children santa is a fun name that people use so they can give gifts secretly. There are myths and stories about him as part of the fun. I mostly dislike santa at church…a lot. Can’t we have one place in which the birth of our Savior is the focus? My mom used to tell us trixie the pixie stories about a pretend pixie that was santa’s helper. When my brother first showed me who santa was, he told me my parents had made it up so they could give secretly, and that made a ton of sense to me.
We do mostly homemade christmas…Grandma sends us money for us to buy presents from her, so we do that. i love to see what my children make.
Off to drive around and see the lights then come back for cocoa and Luke 2. Merry Christmas everyone. We’re finishing up birthday cake for the 2yo!
1. “If Santa isn’t real, then why is God real?” Then, can your children trust anything you say? Can they then trust you on drugs, morality, or personal safety? Sticky situation.
2. The excess & materialism issue, yes. My wife had worked at a Toys R Us one Holiday part time. What a zoo! Many things bought without thought.
My parents tended to excess, but my wife’s parent were along the lines of just getting necessities, socks, shirts, underwear, etc.
There was the one time, though, my sister got 8 pairs of underwear from different givers at Christmas when she was 12. I don’t know why my mother had never thought of back to school buying instead in retrospect.
I was like 7, so I didn’t notice that lack of forethought, but events like that last one could have been tough on the all knowing Santa Legend. At about that age, I had woke up overnight once early Christmas morning. I was so afraid I would scare Santa away for our place if I just moved, so I pretended to be asleep as hard as I could!!
I don’t think there is a “RIGHT” way. And do not judge others. The truth is your screwed either way, I am sure my children will say, “Why did you not let me believe in santa?” Or “I am so glad to have had those magical moments” “You robbed me Mother” bla bla bla bla
Basically I hope there is a way to merge the magical feeling of mythology whilst retaining acts of reality. I don’t want to exclude the Santa but they will know he is not real…You can go see santa and experience the tradition without that dramatic hope in Santa to fulfill your utmost desires.(or so I hope)I like mythology and will probably try to create our own little fun activities and service projects for the kids. The Mythology is real, and it’s ok to have a little fun with it.
I didn’t realize I felt quite so strongly about Santa until last Christmas, when it came up in a discussion at work and I became quite vehement in my denunciation of the jolly old elf.
Although I love Christmas as a religious holiday, I do not like the rampant consumerism that infests it. I entirely dislike the secularization of religious holidays, to be perfectly honest. I also do not like the deliberate abandonment of truth involved in perpetuating the Santa myth.
That being said, I will take Santa over the Easter bunny any day. Santa irritates me, but the Easter bunny is an obscenity. (Apologies for the minor threadjack there. :D)
In any case, none of it hugely impacts me as I have no children, which makes things simpler. I would love to see this tradition fall by the wayside and be forgotten except as a historical side note attached to a few Christmas songs.
#34– I always chuckle when people get uptight over others who like Santa/gifts/trees/whatever else rather than Jesus at Christmastime. I’m sure you know that December 25 was chosen as Christ’s Mass in a very good if-you-can’t-beat-’em,-join-’em PR scheme to try to lure people away from celebrating Yule (in Britain) and Saturnalia (in Rome) — and probably various other winter festivals elsewhere as well. I’m afraid that Jesus was actually a bit of a latecomer to the holiday season. This may be why Mormons don’t do a whole lot of church stuff (no advent, no special Christmas services) at Christmastime — but that’s the Gospel According To Me, so I could be dead wrong.
Springtime is really the time associated with both Jesus’ birth and death in the Bible (lambing season= shepherds watching flocks by night instead of sleeping), so I don’t get too worked up about the “fun” side of Christmas. The best part about it, in my opinion, is that most people do try a little harder to be generous and caring at this season, which is the most Christlike thing of all.
And some of these comments are really very uptight tonight. Wow! I feel bad for a lot of you.
Personally, I loved believing in Santa, loved the magic of it, got lots of gifts every year and appreciated what I had. Really. I kid you not. I was taught very, very young to take care of what I had and value it. (Yeah, I have parents who grew up during the Depression.) Consequently, even though they could afford to give me quite a bit, I appreciated it, even felt guilty if I thought they’d over done.
What I’m trying to get at here is that I don’t think it’s the amount of money spent that spoils the child; it’s whether or not the child is taught to take care of and value what s/he has. (I’ve seen less-affluent families who let their kids break and lose their belongings right and left, which seems insane to me.) No one should over-spend, I agree. But whatever is spent will be too much if the child is not taught to take care of things.
Okay, I’ll stop the rant. I’m just glad I had the parents I had because they knew how to handle all of this very well.
#7 Then teach them the mythology about Santa, ya know Saint Nicholas. Whom used his whole inheritance to assist the poor and afflicted. So perhaps in the modern image of santa is not the image of pure generosity but the story can teach children. I believe it helps for children to know what surrounds their culture. Just a thought of something I hope to do when my kids are older.
I have taught my kids that Santa is real. However, they are only allowed to ask for one present from him, and that is all they get from him. Anything else they get on Christmas morning comes form mom and dad. I have also taught them about other cultures in the world, so my 8 year old is well aware that half of the world population does not celebrate Christmas, and thus no Santa. She also knows that in other countries around the world it is not Santa that brings the presents, but other people. We always have our kids participate in Angel Tree or Sub for Santa where they earn up money all year to donate and they go out and buy the presents. They know that Santa cannot do it all and so we who have so many blessings need to help out those, who do not. They love that they can be Santa’s special helpers for those in need.
I told my daughter that Santa was real. A real metaphor. When she asked what a metaphor was I said when she was older I would explain it. When she was, I did and she moved on. Santa is part of the magic of childhood. I think taking all the magic from the world does more to harm the idea of God than anything like ‘Santa disillusionment’ causes.
AADDs - what a great idea! Darn, I wish I had thought of that! Good, good comments here. Merry Christmas everyone. Glad to be a part of this forum.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 25, 2009 @ 1:37 am
My kids “believe” in Santa when they are young. When they find out I tell them it is a fun tradition that our society has. I explain about traditions and Santa is a tradition. I have never really hyped the Santa thing so my kids barely know who he is but seem to accept that a gift comes from Santa.
My kids never ask me about Santa. My oldest walked in on me doing the Santa thing so she found it. She can’t keep her mouth shut so my second was told at some point without me knowing. My third is in Kindergarten and I don’t say anything but things like “Sure, we can make Santa some cookies” or when she asked if he came in the fireplace I just asked her “what do you think?”
I’m a not a big believer in waiting till kids ask about sex or Santa. Some kids aren’t ever going to figure it out so it is cruel to not tell them when it becomes age appropriate.
I am sensitive to not wanting my kids to be total outsiders all the time so I did want to do Santa. They are a different religion. They have strict parents with strict rules. I don’t want them to have to be different unless it is worth it.
I wouldn’t mind giving them fewer gifts but my husband wants to give them more so we compromise. Plus my family likes to give. At least I can talk my family into giving them books or educational type things which helps me feel like they won’t get too spoiled.
Santa came to my house tonight. Anonymous strangers donated a gift card to Target so we could buy my children gifts. That is the meaning of Santa to me. I have no problem with the spirit of Saint Nicholas and am offended when people act like it is a huge issue to instill it in my children.
Go feed your children tofu and organic edamame and give them nothing because it is not what Christmas is about to you, but for me, I want my children to believe in magic, have hot chocolate, and peppermint bark. I want them to feel, see, taste, touch and smell the beauty of Christmas.
If yours dont, fine, but mine sure will. And they will remember those Christmases.
AADDs—I love your solution: honest but without killing the sense of mystery and wonder. How ingenious to wrap an age-limited fantasy in an age-unlocked explanation.
And now I can’t help imagining the scene:
—Daddy, what’s a metaphor?”
I don’t remember the point at which I became aware that he’s not literal (though it could have been the moment I made my mom confess to being the tooth fairy, ~7yo), but I know it wasn’t traumatic because I was immediately deputized as an Elf and have happily been one ever since. The magic wasn’t a lie, it just turned out to be something different than what my self-absorbed grade school self expected: It didn’t inhabit a fat man in a red suit, it was in me — in my ability to think of others, to guard important secrets, to be generous. And it was (is!) in the faces of the kids (first my younger siblings, now my daughters) on Christmas morning when they see that Somebody Important remembered them and loves them. The literal existence of Santa is entirely beside the point when you have real elves at work, IMHO.
I can see how some might feel betrayed when they find out the truth (DH was — he tells me it pissed him off), but that’s why I think it’s important to have something even realer (is that a word? LOL), even better — selflessness cast as adventure! — to replace the myth. And that’s why I’ll deputize my girls as soon as they’re ready (and hope they think it’s as fabulous a job as I do!).
Instilling the “spirit” of Santa is great, Crystal, and I don’t think anyone has taken issue with that.
It sounds like your family had been blessed with that spirit that you are speaking of. And we honor that as well.
I think what people get concerned about with their children is different than what you are describing here. We wonder if pushing the LITERAL idea of an actual, physical person that travels around the entire world in one evening delivering gifts to all the good boys and girls of the world is wise.
The concerns are centered around trust, commercialism, anti-materialism, etc. Not that anyone wants to take away the idea of generous and anonymous giving.
Kids just tend to be literal and the idea of Santa can potenitally trump the greater lesson most of want to teach our children. If our kids think that there is a literal man, capable of delivering anything they wish, that, in my opinion takes away from the true value of giving and being outwardly-focused.
But, then again, it is 2:30 a.m. so, maybe I am just too tired to convey anything of value at this point.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 25, 2009 @ 3:26 am
Santa IS real. I’m serious! He has better technology than us. That’s all.
Now that my children are adults, discussions of Santa don’t come up very often. However, when they were little ones, we did the whole Santa thing. I think having dreams is a good thing and seeing the world as a fun giving place is also good.
Comment by StillConfused — December 25, 2009 @ 11:11 am
Okay people, I’m at work. What’s your excuse for being on FMH today.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 25, 2009 @ 11:35 am
What’s your excuse for being on FMH today.
I don’t need an excuse - I’m a heathen. My holiday was three days ago.
Cool, Chandelle, you are excused. That is a great reason.
Also, my sister does an awesome solstice celebration. They always save a couple gifts to celebrate with us too, but she and her daughter have created all sorts of fun new traditions.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 25, 2009 @ 11:57 am
My parents are coming in today, so we’ll be doing the gift exchange with them. We celebrate the Solstice for three days so we can still squeeze stuff in on the 25th.
Hope it’s a wonderful day for you, Natalie K., despite having to work!
I didn’t do Santa, but then, until I remarried, we didn’t do much Christmas, either. Midnight Mass is a family tradition, along with opening ONE present when we get home….this is an out and out bribe to let Mama sleep in!
But I told the kids there was no Santa. And whenever they started talking about what they wanted, I basically said, “Well, that’s nice. What shall we give_______?” Shifting the emphasis neatly from what they wanted—oh that’s kind of boring, wanting stuff all the time—-to what can we give to others, which is cool? And since we had no money, we made cookies and carefully picked out ONE perfect present for people. I also involved each kid in helping to pick out the other’s presents. Much fun!
Sigh. Two more hours of my shift left, then I can go home and start celebrating!
I hope Santa stopped by my house while I’ve been at work with a TON of gifts.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 25, 2009 @ 4:37 pm
Reminds me of a sitcom I saw years ago — that one with Michael J. Fox working in the NYC mayor’s office; what was that called? The ditzy mayor was giving a holiday speech for of a group of mothers and young children, but misread his notes (without realizing he had done so):
I believe every child should have the opportunity to experience the magic of Satan!
Santa may not be a living person, but he is not imaginary. He once did live although not at the North Pole with elves and reindeer. St. Nickolaus was a real person who helped people. I know that is an oversimplification. The point it he set an example of selfless service.
It just might be a good thing to teach children that giving is a will make them happy. If we decide to emphasize receiving over giving not just at Christmas but at any time of the year then we are doing our children a disservice. When we emphasize the joy that comes from being kind and friendly and meeting the world with a cheerful attitude then we are accomplishing something worth while. I’m glad Santa is part of that tradition.
At least Santa doesn’t teach children to go to door to door extorting some kind of treat from their neighbors once a year.
To me and My family Santa is real… though as my children ask questions I tell them the truth, this year I told my 6 yr old that Rudolph was not real, that he is a story… I feel if I am as honest as possible now, that he will know when he asks me serious questions in the future he will always get the truth. Santa is the SPIRIT of Christmas. When we give to someone anonymously we are being a Santa to them.
I grew up in a non-Christian household, a vaguely Jewish one actually. There’s no pretense about Hanukkah gifts: they are given and received in a sprit of joy from one family member to another. That’s a heck of a lot more meaningful and magical to me than the crass, commercialized Coca-Cola Santa.
Also, 8 days of festivities are way better than one, and potato pancakes are better than gingerbread cookies!
Comment by Bro. Jones — December 26, 2009 @ 2:20 am
I’ve never looked my kids in the eye and told them Santa was real. I have never denied it either. When my daughter was 4 she asked us point blank about Santa and we told her the truth, but we also told her that it was an important tradition and a really fun imagination game to play and she wasn’t to spoil it for her 3 year old brother. She never has.
Meanwhile, he’s now 8 and still believes in Santa Claus. I think this year I will tell him it’s all been an ARG (Alternate Reality Game). He may be able to get into that.
My agnostic (at best), most likely atheistic, in-laws are horrified that we do NOT do the Santa thing with our children. They are also horrified that we DO teach our children the “myths” of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. I find this contradiction totally hilarious.
I guess even agnostics and atheists need something to believe in, even if it is a fat man with flying reindeer.
sam, as an atheist I can tell you that I definitely understand that inconsistency, and that’s why we don’t “do” Santa in our house. So a blanket statement on all agnostics and atheists doesn’t apply.
sam, perhaps it is not that they “need something to believe in, even if it is a fat man with flying reindeer.” Perhaps it is that they consider the myth of Santa Claus more harmless than some of the mythologies and dangerous beliefs that surround and arise from what many who call themselves “Christians” have constructed around Jesus Christ. “Christians” have, on the whole, throughout much of time, done quite a bit of damage and been a pretty dangerous lot. On the other hand, not much harm has ever come out of the cult which teaches about flying reindeer, elves, and toys and sweets dropped down the chimney, other than perhaps a bit more tooth decay.
My kids, at 8, are starting to question whether Santa’s real. This year they’ve been particularly astute — sweating the details of whether the writing on “Santa’s” presents looks like mom’s writing, whether the reindeer actually at the oats mixed with glitter we left in a bowl on the front step for their midnight snacking pleasure, etc.
I’m willing to have them go on believing for as long as they want to. I think they know the truth, but would like to hang onto the fun for a bit longer (the Tooth Fairy just visited last night, BTW ). I’ll continue to play along with it for as long as it’s fun for them. When they ask me outright, I just say (what my Mom said to me), “What do YOU think?” When they announce their current state of belief or disbelief, I neither confirm nor deny — just give a mysterious smile and a shrug.
It’s fun. It’s sweet, It’s innocent. I didn’t hate my parents for doing it when I figured out the truth, and my kids won’t hate me for it. They’ll remember it fondly, as I do, as a cultural tradition that adds a touch of magic to a time of year that easily loses its magic as we grow older.
In total respect for how you deal with Santa, what do you think about this. . .
I was reading The Polar Express to my son; a boy gets a bell from Santa that only those who believe in Santa can hear. The very last page talks about how at first all of his friends could hear the bell and eventually they couldn’t hear it anymore but even though he’s old (the boy) he can still hear the bell because he still believes.
So here I am at the last page with the bit about the old man-boy still being able to hear the bell and I had this thought: (and I’m interested to see if you’ll shoot me down or not) maybe Santa is a kind of preparatory gospel for believing in God. Sort of like you could argue that Joseph Smith’s treasure seeking and forays in magic and seer stones and whatnot were a sort of preparatory gospel for believing in angles and hidden gold plates. Perhaps, you say, that there is a break-down in logic here, Santa isn’t real. Well, maybe magic and hidden treasure isn’t real either but (maybe) it helped JS get ready for an equally unbelievable venture IMO, the golden plates and angelic visitation. Is this making sense? I guess I’m saying maybe we can tolerate the Santa myth because it is a sort of stepping stone to believing in God or other things you don’t see. What to you think? Am I way far gone on this one?
As a side note, the rule in my house has always been if you don’t believe in Santa, Santa won’t believe in you (i.e. he won’t bring you presents.)
Maybe this is the most selfish way to see this….But when I have kids I want them to know that those gifts came from ME! I worked hard for the mula to pay for them DANGIT! :o)
When I was a kid I got very few gifts from my parents (mainly socks and things I thought were super lame back then) and one nice toy from Santa… I remember thinking that my parents must not really know me or care since they got me all lame gifts…. Or something like that…
Looking back… That was a pretty bratty thing to think… But still.
Comment by jujubean — December 28, 2009 @ 12:05 pm
lache, though I get what you’re trying to say, I actually think that is the most inappropriate way to present Santa. As several people have stated, finding out about Santa can lead people to doubt the existence of God. Portraying Santa in any sort of “faith-based, you just-gotta-believe” manner only heightens the probability that the “finding out” fallout might lead to doubt of divine things.
I don’t think we should encourage our children to develop faith and belief in things that, ultimately, we’re going to ask them to abandon later.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 28, 2009 @ 1:10 pm
Here’s my script when my kids ask about whether Santa is real:
Some people believe that Santa is real, and some people believe that he’s make-believe. As for me, I think that it’s fun to give someone a present and to say that it’s from Santa Claus.Even if there is a real Santa, I don’t think he’d mind if you did that. It feels good to give someone a present without them knowing it’s from you. Why don’t you try that this year? Give your brother a present and say that it’s from Santa Claus?
[later] How did that feel?
Comment by Christian — December 28, 2009 @ 1:19 pm
First of all, I do want to make it clear that I don’t think that introducing the idea of Santa is evil or wicked or that it will mark the beginning of the end of all of our children’s faith. What I meant to convey, though, admittedly done poorly, is that I think there is a potential danger is pushing the issue year after year, even after a child has expressed doubts. My parents (somewhat) and my grandparents (especially) went to great, great lengths to insist that Santa was real and when we were old enough to begin to question the logic of it, we were sort of scoffed at and guilted into believing in Santa.
“What? You don’t believe in SANTA!?!?!? Well, Christi still believes in Santa and Santa knows that and she’s going to get lots of presents from Santa this year.” (Not the exact phrase, maybe, but similar type things were said)
So, while logic was still stuck there in your mind, you felt a little guilty about doubting and a little afraid that maybe, just maybe (despite your logical conclusions) Santa is real and you won’t get any gifts for Christmas this year. So, you play along and stop the questions and help perpetuate the myth, all the while that lingering (and for me, really strong) doubt stayed. So you don’t really actually believe in Santa. You try to pretend that you do so that you aren’t made to feel guilty by the adults and you don’t get shafted by the maybe-Santa.
Then 2 or 3 or whatever years later it’s finally confirmed that Santa is not real and you’re just left feeling kinda silly. Kinda duped. I don’t know, I wasn’t exactly conscious of those thoughts at the time, just very cognizant of the feelings.
It’s kind of like the battles I choose to pick with my kids. I really, really, really don’t want my children to ever drink and drive or do drugs. I push this idea early, often and firmly. I also don’t want my son to wear his pants too low around his waste. I think that current trend is stupid. But, I know it isn’t really that important so I don’t fight that battle. If I fight and fight and fight that battle, then have that same persistent and serious “fight” over the drug and alcohol stuff, it might just sound like more of the same. There might not be as much of a distinction between the level of importance between the two.
Same principle applies here. “There really, really, really is a Santa. You have to believe! It’s so fun! Santa brings shiny toys to those who believe!” “Really?” “Yes, really! Who do you think eats the cookies we leave out? How do you think those reindeer tracks in the snow got there (favorite one of my grandparents)? Santa is fun! Look what Santa brought!”
I dunno, then we adamantly tell our children, “yes I know you don’t see God, or hear God, but he is real. You can feel his Spirit.” “Really?” “Yes, really. You have to believe. In order to get your gift of eternity, you have to believe!”
Like I said, not a foregone conclusion by any means, but I’m afraid the rational is too similar to risk pushing it with our children. Especially when there is disappointment several times over when we subsequently learn there is no Easter Bunny, no tooth fairy, no lochness monster, etc., etc,. etc. Oh. But God? No, that one is real. Really.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 28, 2009 @ 6:51 pm
#62 not my gingerbread cookies
Decades ago, when my eldest daughter was five, she visited a friend on the day after Christmas. Her friend was the daughter of the richest couple in our ward-her daddy sold orthopedic stuff. They had gone away for 3 days before Christmas and a decorator had come in and completely redone the child’s room. She also got over $1000 worth of toys, including one of those ride on battery powered cars. She told my daughter later that day at our house that she didn’t get as much stuff from Santa because she wasn’t as good. Both girls got the full truth with both barrels. My subsequent darlings were carefully taught that Santa was a fun myth based on the wonderful truth of St Nicholas. I love Santa, I collect miniature Santas. I make the best Santa Claus cookies ever, and gave them out for years in my wards. I explain metaphor to any who ask me. I also make sure there are more nativities than Santas up every year.
I now serve in a Young Singles Ward and I am more convinced than ever that parents should not lie to their kids-not for fun, not for the greater good, and not out of laziness. Lying is a proud, controlling behavior. Answering questions honestly shows respect for the child. I teach Institute and regularly see the lack of integrity of parents visited on the heads and hearts of the children. If they ask point blank for the truth, give them the truth. Think of God in James 1:5 as the parental example.
My parents really went to great lengths when we were little to keep that magic alive for us all… and I am glad they did. I think it was harmless fun and made for some wonderful, lasting memories. When we became wise to what was going on and asked enough questions they didn’t try to keep it going, they told us the deal and we were not scarred by the experience. I think it sort of helps teach you to believe in the things you cannot see and to have hope and in this world faith and hope are not bad things to have tucked away for a rainy day.
Comment by Travelin' Pants — December 29, 2009 @ 2:16 am
I second and third “CJ” at #1.
Telling kids about Santa teaches them to be good for a reward in a serious, calculated way.
When you’ve told them about Santa as if he were real, and then they find out, they’ll start asking questions about Heavenly Father: Is he an imaginary, fun character, too?
Did I say it teaches selfishness? People really have used Santa to “buy” good behavior from their kids…
Sorry, I’m a real spoilsport when it comes to Santa. Our kids have always done fine without him. They don’t have a weirded-out relationship with Santa now — our grandson saw Santa, but he also saw mom making those packages he later got, and when the time comes that he’s curious, he’ll be told, that it’s an act we put on to have fun — never that Santa’s supposedly real. We’ll see how the other grandkids will get it…
I don’t work really hard at the Santa illusion, and I never use Santa as a bribe to elicit good behavior from my children, but I let my children believe in Santa and I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I worried about it a lot at first because my dad (an atheist) likes to joke that we tell our kids lies like Santa, the Easter bunny, and Jesus. But this year I’ve decided that I can use it to teach my children a bigger lesson in the long run.
I’ll start with the tooth fairy, because it’s easier to see the value. My five year old son was very anxious about his tooth being loose. He worries a lot and hates blood and the thought of losing a tooth was very stressful for him. We talked to him about why it happens, stories about our first lost tooth, etc., but mentioning that he would get money for putting a lost tooth under his pillow gave him something to look forward to. I don’t think helping your child deal with something in a creative way is the deception some people think it is.
Anyway, I see value in Santa as well. Children generally don’t know about poverty, starvation, and other atrocities in the real world. Let them think there’s a wonderful person who loves all children and brings them toys on Christmas. When they’re old enough to understand it’s not literal, they can become Santa themselves and show to others the love and generosity that the character embodies.
My son is in kindergarten and a friend of his told him that Santa isn’t real. When he asked me if Santa was real, I told him yes. I also told him that it’s ok for his friend not to believe in Santa, that everyone doesn’t believe all the same things and that it’s ok. It doesn’t mean he’s wrong and it doesn’t mean his friend is wrong. We just believe different things. I’m hoping this will help him later when religion comes up with non-members. Also, I think a lot of problems in the world could be avoided if we stopped persisting in the belief that we are right and all others must then be wrong.
We teach the kids form the beginning that Santa is a pretend charecter. I’m honestly not bugged by the “lie” theory and I don’t think it’s harmful to faith in God or parent relationships. It’s just that I want the thanks, respect, and hugs to go to the actual gift-givers! Christmas is a special enough time with the Birth thing, the family and parties and all the presents, I don’t think my kids are missing out one bit.
This has been a great thread. DH and I don’t have kids yet, but we’ve recently mused over what we’re going to do about the Santa issue, and we’ve loved some of the ideas presented here.
Anyhow, a fantastic read related to belief and Santa is The Hogfather by Terry Pratchett–a British humor fantasy novel about the Discworld’s “Santa.” So incredibly clever it’s one of my favorite books of all time.
Comment by Motion de Smiths — January 3, 2010 @ 9:48 pm
Zech. 2: 6
6 ¶ Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.
We don’t make a big deal of Santa. My oldest two pretty much figured it out on their own, so we never talked about it.
My third, however, (age 5) broke down crying tonight when he realized that Santa never brought him the sled or yo-yo he asked for in his letter to him. These aren’t any of the 3 things on his list. Each child makes his own list and then chooses his top 3 items, and that’s what he gets for Christmas from mom and dad. “Santa” does the stockings. That’s how we do Christmas. I didn’t realize that this son literally still believed in Santa and thought that Santa would bring him something (a sled? in Texas?) I’m really not sure how to handle this. My poor kid’s heart is broken.
Comment by Stephanie — January 10, 2010 @ 12:07 am
As long as Santa is a fairy tale, and the kids know it, it’s fine. If he’s made out to be real, at some point kids start wondering if Jesus is a fairy tale, too.
I just finished writing a long, involved explanation on my own blog of my issues with Santa. Suffice to say, not too many people agree with me, but I stand by it. The short version: teaching kids about Santa sends them some disturbing messages about generosity, and worthiness to receive generosity.
Comment by CJ — December 24, 2009 @ 1:56 pm
I can see where people are coming from when they don’t like the santa “lie”, but I don’t buy it. IWe have , however decided that we won’t lie to the kids if they ask if there is a real santa. Our son asked me when he was 8 or 7 if santa was real. I asked him what he thought. He said that he thought I was Santa. I affirmed that his theory was true. He was kind of bummed for a bit, but he got over it pretty quickly.
Comment by Ian Cook — December 24, 2009 @ 1:58 pm
When my nephew was 4, my sister told him that santa wasn’t real, when he was 8, she decided she felt bad for taking that “magic of childhood” away and worked out an elaborate scheme to get him a gift he knew hadn’t come from her.
We don’t lie to our kids, but do what Ian does, if they ask, we’ll ask them what they think and go from there. My 8-year-old hasn’t asked yet, so either he knows and is just playing along, or he still believes. I’m not sure which.
I have a neighbor who told her 4 or 5 year old the truth because the poor girl was having panic attacks over the idea of a stranger coming into their house.
Comment by Alliegator — December 24, 2009 @ 2:05 pm
At our ward party, Santa came and played the piano while we all sang christmas songs, he also talked to us and said that he was going to tell us a “reverent story” and we should all be reverent now. Then he told us about Jesus’ birth. It was an interesting mix of santa and jesus.
(the funniest part was when he had kids raise hands if they wanted to sing, and then said, “any opposed?”
Comment by Alliegator — December 24, 2009 @ 2:08 pm
I don’t have huge problems with the Santa lie, but DH and I have talked about not going along with it for our kids. The other day at my work, a little kid ran up to his mom (maybe 5 years old), and said franticallly, “Mommy, is Santa real?” She said outright, “yes, of course he is sweety.” The kid responded by sticking out his tongue at his older sister. I am so NOT comfortable with telling outright lies like that.
What I think we’ll do is portray Santa as symbol of gift-giving. I’ll tell them we say a gift is from Santa if we don’t know who it was from. So getting something from Santa means you have someone who loves you very much.
Also, the other day at work (I work at a hotel), one room of people needed THREE BELLMAN CARTS to get all their stuff down. They came down with three carts full literally top to bottom with a ton of JUNK for Christmas gifts.
This has made me decide that my kids are going to get necessities (socks, underwear, etc.) and one cool, meaningful gift for Christmas. They’ll probably hate me, but I still like the idea.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 24, 2009 @ 2:13 pm
Santa (at our house) brings a small present, and then stockings. Stockings have: a toothbrush, candy, nuts, socks, tape, an orange, sometimes a can of olives, bandaids, and whatever other small things strike my fancy.
Sometimes I miss my mom’s stockings because it’s not quite as exciting to dump it out when you’re the one who filled it.
(One of these years I’ll make my Mister do them)
Comment by Alliegator — December 24, 2009 @ 2:21 pm
The Santa problem goes beyond lying to your kids–although that’s bad enough, in my opinion. I think it’s important, as a parent, to be able to look your child in the eye and tell him or her, “I’ve never lied to you about anything”. You’re going to need that trust later on…like when they’re teenagers.
But, some other issues I have…
If Santa isn’t real, then why is God real?
What makes someone worthy? We teach kids that Santa brings “good” little boys and girls presents…but what about poor kids? What about non-Christian kids? Are they less worthy? It’s setting a dangerous precedent, IMHO, to equate worthiness with material possessions. We see the harmful effects of this attitude in adults all the time…
How does teaching kids about Santa teach them about generosity? Real generosity requires careful thought, love, and, often, sacrifice. Santa doesn’t have to go without to give you a gift…and if you don’t receive that gift, does it mean that Santa doesn’t love you? Or that your parents love you, but just can’t afford it?
Comment by CJ — December 24, 2009 @ 2:28 pm
I haven’t had to deal with the issue, but I’m ambivalent about Santa Claus. I personally really like the sort of old mythic, magical aspects of Christmas, the things which hearken back to faeries and spirits and other folk traditions. There is something fun about pretending to believe in those sorts of things, and to see the sense of wonder in children believing them. OTOH, if we are going to celebrate the 25th as the birth of Christ, I think we should try to minimize the consumeristic aspects of the holiday, into which Santa has been co-opted. And I can certainly respect those who don’t lie to their children on principle. My SiL says that when her parents admitted Santa wasn’t real, it made her question God and Jesus–an eminently rational reaction. So I’m not sure where we will ultimately stand.
re: 5
Sounds smart, and it’s similar to what we’re planning. We’ve heard several people follow the rule of “One thing they need, one thing to read, and one thing that’s fun, and that’s it.” Sounds sensible.
Comment by Derek — December 24, 2009 @ 2:30 pm
I’ve seen some parents go to extreme lengths to push the Santa-really-is-real theme. I’m sure you have all heard the “if you don’t believe in Santa you won’t get anything for Christmas” line. I don’t really like this approach.
It would bother me more if I was trying to teach my kids to have faith in a GOd that you can’t see, hear etc. This is why. When I was 7 or so and I found out there was no Santa. I was heartbroken. It never occurred to me that if there was no Santa there was also no Easter Bunny, no tooth fairy, etc. So, I kept feeling disappointed over and over as I discovered they were all fictional. And then, I distinctly remember having the thought “If there is no Santa, Easter Bunny, etc., there probably is no God either”.
May seem silly now, but I felt like my parents had given me all these magical ideas that I loved that were slowly taken away. So, yeah, I’m not a big Santa fan. But that’s just me and I acknowledge I’m kinda weird…
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 24, 2009 @ 2:32 pm
I’ve always felt that you don’t necessarily have to believe that Santa is real for the story to be fun and magical. IMHO once they’re old enough to ask you directly whether or not Santa Claus exists, there’s no point in attempting to continue the charade — it will just make the whole thing more upsetting/confusing later.
With my kids, I didn’t actively tell them that Santa is real nor did I go out of my way to tell them that Santa is not real. I just kind of let them figure it out on their own. This year is the year they figured it out (they’re 6 and 8). I wrote the story of my kids’ adventures with belief in Santa on my blog here.
Comment by chanson — December 24, 2009 @ 2:32 pm
I think parents have to do what they feel is best for their family.
One christmas when I was little, santa brought a small suitcase full of doll clothes, and my doll was sitting in the middle of it all. I pictured santa working his magic making her come alive so she could walk down the stairs and into the suitcase. (Several years later I noticed scraps in my mom’s sewing table that matched all the doll clothes.)
At the time, it was magic, and I am still grateful to my parents for giving me a magical childhood. I didn’t feel like it caused trust issues, so for our family believing in Santa was wonderful.
Comment by Alliegator — December 24, 2009 @ 2:36 pm
Lawyer Lady (#9)–I don’t think you’re “kinda weird” at all! Your reaction sounds perfectly rational to me, and I think it’s one lots of kids have…and lots of adults remember with profound sadness. The underlying myth, here, is that something has to be pretend to be magical. Isn’t it better to help kids discover, through their own senses, and powers of logic, the real magic in the world?
Christmas is an extremely hard time of year for my family; it brings up a lot of hard memories (my dad died right before Christmas when I was a teenager), and a lot of hard feelings about religion. I know it’s supposed to be the other way around, but in mine and Mr. CJ’s universe, it’s the non-believers who’ve pretty much rejected the believers. I honestly have no emotional investment in what anybody believes (or doesn’t believe), and I would never try to convert anybody, but, unfortunately, the divide remains. Every year I hope my mom will come join us on Christmas, and every year she refuses.
Many of my atheist or agnostic family members trace the start of their doubts to learning that there was no Santa. It ruined Christmas for them. I support them in their personal choices 100%; what makes me sad is that they feel like religion betrayed them, and let them down.
Comment by CJ — December 24, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
Ooh, Derek, I love that tagline.
That just might be it.
With my “one gift” idea, I have some flexibility. For instance, when I was a kid, all I needed was books, so my “one gift” might have been a collection of books.
But I really hope to spare my children from the intense materialistic lust I experienced as a kid. Do y’all remember watching TV commercials? I used to see the overabundant commercials and just feel like I NEEDED that stuff. I needed a “My Size Barbie”. I needed a talkboy. My Christmas list was 3 pages long, and I just ached for all that stuff.
I really hope to spare my kids that kind of silliness somehow.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 24, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
That is one of the best Santa photos ever!
Comment by numi — December 24, 2009 @ 3:18 pm
CJ,
I am so sorry to hear about your Dad. It’s hard enough losing a parent, but losing one as a teenager right before the holidays - that just makes me sad to hear.
I don’t trace my atheism to my “loss” of Santa so much as I just had doubts about God and religion starting a shockingly young age. And that was just another factor that came along during those years. I still looooove Christmas time - it in no way ruined this time of year for me. The music, the cooking, the decorations, the lights, the giving, the family get-togethers - that is all still wonderful and fun.
When my kids were small I did just what someone up the thread did as well. I sort of mildly referred to Santa from time-to-time and never really emphasized him but when they asked me if Santa was real, I told them “no”, and went on to explain the symbolism of Santa and secret, selfless giving, etc. Seems to have turned out pretty good so far. But who knows? My kids may be in therapy one day for any number of parenting tactics I have employed.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 24, 2009 @ 3:28 pm
LL–your kids are lucky to have you, and I’m sure they know it! For what it’s worth, you sound like a great mom and I think you’re setting a great example for them. There are few enough strong, and strong minded, women in the world.
Comment by CJ — December 24, 2009 @ 3:32 pm
I never had an “Oh no, Santa doesn’t exist!” moment. Actually, I don’t remember really believing in Santa at all (I do, however, remember snooping around with my older brothers looking for the presents before Christmas, so I must have known my mom was Santa from at least 4 or 5 years old).
I still profess to believe in Santa though; it’s just that my concept of what “Santa” is has changed. He isn’t the guy in the red suit; really he’s my mom (well, I suppose now he’s me). He’s real in a way–he’s a persona that we take on when we lovingly put those presents under the tree for our kids.
Some people have mentioned that kids finding out there’s no Santa might begin to question God, and there may be something to that. I never really associated belief in Santa with belief in God when I was a kid, but strangely as I’ve gotten older my concept of God has become more and more like my concept of Santa.
Comment by J-town — December 24, 2009 @ 3:32 pm
Awww, wow, CJ, thank you for those nice compliments. Very nice of you.
[Okay, i know this is off topic, but I can’t help myself - fellow Texans, it is snowing outside and has been for 3 hours!!! (DFW area). It hardly ever, ever snows here in Texas and so long as I have lived here it has NEVER snowed in December - especially Christmas Eve. My kids are beside themsleves with excitement. Oh, I guess I am too, obviously. Merry Christmas Eve!!!!]
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 24, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
We’ve taught our kids that Santa is a fun game that people play at Christmastime, where people buy gifts for people they love and pretend they came from Santa. Our oldest is 7 now, and she gets it. We remind her often that Santa is part of the game, and that while knowing the “Santa surprise” can make the game even more fun we NEVER tell other people the surprise.
(It is a surprise, rather than a secret, because we have also taught her that we do not keep secrets and that if anyone tells her that she ought to keep something secret - especially from us - she should tell us right away. I surprise, however, is something that is secret for a little while but will eventually be shared - like a birthday present.)
This year she came to me and in a very concerned voice asked me what she should do if someone asks her if she believes that Santa is real. We talked about it for a few minutes, and I suggested that a good response for that question is, “Santa is a fun part of Christmas!” It is true, and it doesn’t mean that she has to spill the Santa surprise.
My concern was more practical than principle. Since she knows that her Christmas gifts come from mom and dad and not some mystical character who magically manufactures whatever her heart desires, she can be better prepared for the eventualities of not receiving every toy she’s ever seen. So my vote would fall somewhere between “a fun imaginary character” and “a dangerous lie”.
Comment by incognito — December 24, 2009 @ 3:36 pm
As far as the Santa-God link, the people I know seem to fall into a few different categories:
1. Santa is “real”, but you can’t see him, touch him, or prove his existence…God is “real”, but you can’t prove His existence, either. So if Santa isn’t really real, then, logically, God isn’t, either.
2. If they’d lie to me about this, what else would they lie about?
3. Christmas, as embodied by Santa, is a hoax. If Santa is a fake, then everything he supposedly represents is a fake, too. Once Santa is out of the picture, everything else about the holiday seems tarnished.
Comment by CJ — December 24, 2009 @ 3:38 pm
When she was almost five, dd persistently asked if Santa was real. I did the standard “What do you think?” And she would not be dissuaded, but I could tell she wanted him to be real. I finally had to lie or spill the beans. So I told the truth.
The next day, I overheard her defending her belief in Santa to her older friend who had never believed. I was quite surprised.
This only lasted about a year, and after that, the game was up. She just really wanted to believe, but I don’t think she ever really did.
This taught me that kids will believe what they want to believe. It doesn’t matter much what we say. Except the bald-faced lies–yeah, that just seems wrong.
Comment by Ahna — December 24, 2009 @ 3:41 pm
Who cares if you lie to your four-year-old about Santa being real? The real question we should be discussing is at what age should kids be told the truth. Let the kids believe when they are young.
Comment by Javelin — December 24, 2009 @ 3:50 pm
re: 11
That sort of magic is precisely what I do like about the idea of Santa and traditional Christmas lore. Great story!
re: 13
That’s a big part of my rejection of the commercialism and excess of Christmas. I grew up in a family where my Mom got me just about everything I wanted for Christmas. And the more I got, the more I wanted. Looking back, I can’t believe how many toys we had…and I think the sheer abundance of it kept me from really appreciating any of it, and it definitely crowded out any spirituality. “Yeah, yeah, thanks for baby Jesus–bring on the loot!”
re: 19
Great way to deal with the issue!
Comment by Derek — December 24, 2009 @ 3:57 pm
Derek- we’ve talked to our kids about how santa has a lot of kids to get presents for, so we need to be careful about how much we ask for, and realize that we probably won’t get everything we want. They have LONG lists of things they want, but they haven’t been disappointed by the things they’ve actually gotten. (so far anyway)
Comment by Alliegator — December 24, 2009 @ 4:01 pm
Incognito (#19)–I think we’re going to borrow your approach! That’s a really good way to deal with the issue, and also addresses Mr. CJ’s big concern, that our kids will be “those kids” who spoil it for everybody. As he said to me the other night, “I just picture sitting at home, minding my own business, when the irate phone calls start pouring in. ‘Your child ruined Christmas for my child FOREVER!’”
Comment by CJ — December 24, 2009 @ 4:10 pm
My kids are 8 and 6 and they believe. They are starting to question. They asked if we believe and why rich kids get more than they do this year. We love Christmas and the idea of Santa, so we make up stories and lie. I told them I believe in the magic of Santa. We also told the kids we talked to Santa and since we expressed a desire for more simple and creative toys, he respects that. Santa only brings a couple things and candy in the stockings, so most gifts are from each other. We focus on what a wonderful idea Santa is. Someone who gives to others and how we can do that for others. They understand that the store Santas are not real, but that other little kids may believe and we don’t need to take that away.
My kids love the magic of it all and I am sure in a year or two they won’t believe, even now it is a tentative belief. As I family, we joke and try to trick each other all the time. I don’t see my kids being shocked to find out that Santa isn’t what they thought. I can see them wanting to play the part for others.
Comment by miles — December 24, 2009 @ 4:12 pm
I figured out Santa wasn’t real when I was 6 and noticed that “Santa’s” handwriting on the gift tags was identical to my mom’s. When I asked her if my suspicion was correct, she told me it was. I was the oldest kid, and although my next youngest sibling is only a year and a half younger than I am, it seemed like for several years I was the only one who knew the secret. I kind of liked it and had fun watching the amazement on my little brothers’ faces when they walked into the living room on Christmas morning.
I like Natalie K and Derek’s plan to limit Christmas gifts. That was my plan this year, too, but it is not easy! My daughter is 1 1/2, so it’s not like she asked for anything. But I would keep seeing things at the store that I knew she would love. And it’s pretty easy to argue that she “needs” new clothes and some new toys so she doesn’t get bored around the house, and some new CDs so she will keep quiet in the car, and a snowsuit and boots so she can make a snowman. But don’t even get me started on the fear mongering that goes on in the “educational toy” industry! You start to think, maybe that baby laptop will give her an edge when she gets to school, or maybe this Baby Einstein video really will magically teach her to read! At least we did not get any toys this year that require batteries or make sounds. At this point, there are quite a few gifts to put under the tree, but a lot of them are used books that I bought for 50 cents each at the library.
Comment by Sofia — December 24, 2009 @ 4:13 pm
Hmmm. Again LL is making me think, and today there is not enough time for trivial stuff like that!
But… The Santa myth had nothing to do with my drift to being agnostic. I do remember trying hard not to accept the obvious, that Mom and Dad were the ones who provided all the toys.
Each year my daughters and grandchildren spend the night at our home on Christmas Eve. Santa delivers right here and it is a ball. After breakfast they all leave and we are free to bask in the quietness. Last night I watched my older daughter tear up (she’s 36) when she told some people that she had never spent Christmas Eve and morning without her sister (Eris) next to her and couldn’t imagine it any other way. Me either.
Happy holidays to all of you. Whether you believe or not, I hope your day is everything you wish for.
Comment by numi — December 24, 2009 @ 4:26 pm
Before Mr. CJ and I head out for Christmas Eve festivities with his family, I just want to say, Merry Christmas! I hope everyone has a wonderful night tonight, and a wonderful day tomorrow. Thank you to all the bloggers, and regular commenters, who make this such a great, welcoming forum. I’m so glad I found you all!
Comment by CJ — December 24, 2009 @ 4:36 pm
re: 16
Yeah, the Santa issue is really a separate one from the excess issue. You can certainly do Santa and still be frugal.
Comment by Derek — December 24, 2009 @ 5:05 pm
I’ll echo CJ here.
Merry Christmas to all! And yeah, you’re all pretty awesome. You’ve saved my sanity on more than one occasion. Thanks for that, and have some cheerful holidays.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 24, 2009 @ 5:47 pm
I’m years from having kids, but I like what my parents did with us regarding Santa, and I think I’ll do the same if I do have kids. It’s rather like what #19 does. From the beginning, they were clear that Santa was not real, but that the whole story is a fun part of Christmas. It was the same with the easter bunny and tooth fairy. The only problem was that they forgot to keep explaining this and my younger siblings actually believed in the tooth fairy for a while. Oops.
Comment by Kate — December 24, 2009 @ 6:39 pm
I love Santa. I only have the fondest magical memories from when I believed in him, and I was not heart-broken or disillusioned nor concerned that my parents had lied to me. None of that even occurred to me. I know that it is an issue for a lot of people, but for me believing was golden and shiny and covered in chocolate. And growing up and finding out the truth was fun too , because now I was mature and in on the secret. Yeah, okay so I had an enchanted childhood, what ya gonna do.
It’s funny though I remember discussing Santa with my good friend T, she was shocked that I would teach my kids to believe in Santa, I explained how sweet my memories of believing in Santa were and she’d never thought of that before, she grew up Muslim in Brooklyn, and to her Santa was some creepy old white guy who would break into your house in the middle of the night and the whole idea of it seriously freaked her out. I could totally see that. (and I’ve always thought Santa Clause is Coming to Town is the creepiest song) So even though she’s Mormon now her family doesn’t do Santa at all. Which makes perfect sense to me too.
I think both ways make sense, and both are totally valid.
Comment by fMhLisa — December 24, 2009 @ 6:47 pm
We tell the children santa is a fun name that people use so they can give gifts secretly. There are myths and stories about him as part of the fun. I mostly dislike santa at church…a lot. Can’t we have one place in which the birth of our Savior is the focus? My mom used to tell us trixie the pixie stories about a pretend pixie that was santa’s helper. When my brother first showed me who santa was, he told me my parents had made it up so they could give secretly, and that made a ton of sense to me.
We do mostly homemade christmas…Grandma sends us money for us to buy presents from her, so we do that. i love to see what my children make.
Off to drive around and see the lights then come back for cocoa and Luke 2. Merry Christmas everyone. We’re finishing up birthday cake for the 2yo!
Comment by britt — December 24, 2009 @ 8:15 pm
OK, 2 issues have been brought up here:
1. “If Santa isn’t real, then why is God real?” Then, can your children trust anything you say? Can they then trust you on drugs, morality, or personal safety? Sticky situation.
2. The excess & materialism issue, yes. My wife had worked at a Toys R Us one Holiday part time. What a zoo! Many things bought without thought.
My parents tended to excess, but my wife’s parent were along the lines of just getting necessities, socks, shirts, underwear, etc.
There was the one time, though, my sister got 8 pairs of underwear from different givers at Christmas when she was 12. I don’t know why my mother had never thought of back to school buying instead in retrospect.
I was like 7, so I didn’t notice that lack of forethought, but events like that last one could have been tough on the all knowing Santa Legend. At about that age, I had woke up overnight once early Christmas morning. I was so afraid I would scare Santa away for our place if I just moved, so I pretended to be asleep as hard as I could!!
Comment by Mike H. — December 24, 2009 @ 8:32 pm
I don’t think there is a “RIGHT” way. And do not judge others. The truth is your screwed either way, I am sure my children will say, “Why did you not let me believe in santa?” Or “I am so glad to have had those magical moments” “You robbed me Mother” bla bla bla bla
Basically I hope there is a way to merge the magical feeling of mythology whilst retaining acts of reality. I don’t want to exclude the Santa but they will know he is not real…You can go see santa and experience the tradition without that dramatic hope in Santa to fulfill your utmost desires.(or so I hope)I like mythology and will probably try to create our own little fun activities and service projects for the kids. The Mythology is real, and it’s ok to have a little fun with it.
Comment by cz — December 24, 2009 @ 8:48 pm
Sorry it’s “You’re” probably not the first spelling mistake I have made.
Comment by cz — December 24, 2009 @ 8:53 pm
I didn’t realize I felt quite so strongly about Santa until last Christmas, when it came up in a discussion at work and I became quite vehement in my denunciation of the jolly old elf.
Although I love Christmas as a religious holiday, I do not like the rampant consumerism that infests it. I entirely dislike the secularization of religious holidays, to be perfectly honest. I also do not like the deliberate abandonment of truth involved in perpetuating the Santa myth.
That being said, I will take Santa over the Easter bunny any day. Santa irritates me, but the Easter bunny is an obscenity. (Apologies for the minor threadjack there. :D)
In any case, none of it hugely impacts me as I have no children, which makes things simpler. I would love to see this tradition fall by the wayside and be forgotten except as a historical side note attached to a few Christmas songs.
Comment by Matt A. — December 24, 2009 @ 8:54 pm
#34– I always chuckle when people get uptight over others who like Santa/gifts/trees/whatever else rather than Jesus at Christmastime. I’m sure you know that December 25 was chosen as Christ’s Mass in a very good if-you-can’t-beat-’em,-join-’em PR scheme to try to lure people away from celebrating Yule (in Britain) and Saturnalia (in Rome) — and probably various other winter festivals elsewhere as well. I’m afraid that Jesus was actually a bit of a latecomer to the holiday season. This may be why Mormons don’t do a whole lot of church stuff (no advent, no special Christmas services) at Christmastime — but that’s the Gospel According To Me, so I could be dead wrong.
Springtime is really the time associated with both Jesus’ birth and death in the Bible (lambing season= shepherds watching flocks by night instead of sleeping), so I don’t get too worked up about the “fun” side of Christmas. The best part about it, in my opinion, is that most people do try a little harder to be generous and caring at this season, which is the most Christlike thing of all.
And some of these comments are really very uptight tonight. Wow! I feel bad for a lot of you.
Personally, I loved believing in Santa, loved the magic of it, got lots of gifts every year and appreciated what I had. Really. I kid you not. I was taught very, very young to take care of what I had and value it. (Yeah, I have parents who grew up during the Depression.) Consequently, even though they could afford to give me quite a bit, I appreciated it, even felt guilty if I thought they’d over done.
What I’m trying to get at here is that I don’t think it’s the amount of money spent that spoils the child; it’s whether or not the child is taught to take care of and value what s/he has. (I’ve seen less-affluent families who let their kids break and lose their belongings right and left, which seems insane to me.) No one should over-spend, I agree. But whatever is spent will be too much if the child is not taught to take care of things.
Okay, I’ll stop the rant. I’m just glad I had the parents I had because they knew how to handle all of this very well.
Comment by A Paperback Writer — December 24, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
#7 Then teach them the mythology about Santa, ya know Saint Nicholas. Whom used his whole inheritance to assist the poor and afflicted. So perhaps in the modern image of santa is not the image of pure generosity but the story can teach children. I believe it helps for children to know what surrounds their culture. Just a thought of something I hope to do when my kids are older.
Comment by cz — December 24, 2009 @ 11:11 pm
I have taught my kids that Santa is real. However, they are only allowed to ask for one present from him, and that is all they get from him. Anything else they get on Christmas morning comes form mom and dad. I have also taught them about other cultures in the world, so my 8 year old is well aware that half of the world population does not celebrate Christmas, and thus no Santa. She also knows that in other countries around the world it is not Santa that brings the presents, but other people. We always have our kids participate in Angel Tree or Sub for Santa where they earn up money all year to donate and they go out and buy the presents. They know that Santa cannot do it all and so we who have so many blessings need to help out those, who do not. They love that they can be Santa’s special helpers for those in need.
Comment by Kay — December 24, 2009 @ 11:31 pm
I told my daughter that Santa was real. A real metaphor. When she asked what a metaphor was I said when she was older I would explain it. When she was, I did and she moved on. Santa is part of the magic of childhood. I think taking all the magic from the world does more to harm the idea of God than anything like ‘Santa disillusionment’ causes.
I Believe.
Comment by AADDs — December 24, 2009 @ 11:53 pm
AADDs - what a great idea! Darn, I wish I had thought of that! Good, good comments here. Merry Christmas everyone. Glad to be a part of this forum.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 25, 2009 @ 1:37 am
My kids “believe” in Santa when they are young. When they find out I tell them it is a fun tradition that our society has. I explain about traditions and Santa is a tradition. I have never really hyped the Santa thing so my kids barely know who he is but seem to accept that a gift comes from Santa.
My kids never ask me about Santa. My oldest walked in on me doing the Santa thing so she found it. She can’t keep her mouth shut so my second was told at some point without me knowing. My third is in Kindergarten and I don’t say anything but things like “Sure, we can make Santa some cookies” or when she asked if he came in the fireplace I just asked her “what do you think?”
I’m a not a big believer in waiting till kids ask about sex or Santa. Some kids aren’t ever going to figure it out so it is cruel to not tell them when it becomes age appropriate.
I am sensitive to not wanting my kids to be total outsiders all the time so I did want to do Santa. They are a different religion. They have strict parents with strict rules. I don’t want them to have to be different unless it is worth it.
I wouldn’t mind giving them fewer gifts but my husband wants to give them more so we compromise. Plus my family likes to give. At least I can talk my family into giving them books or educational type things which helps me feel like they won’t get too spoiled.
Comment by jks — December 25, 2009 @ 1:51 am
Santa came to my house tonight. Anonymous strangers donated a gift card to Target so we could buy my children gifts. That is the meaning of Santa to me. I have no problem with the spirit of Saint Nicholas and am offended when people act like it is a huge issue to instill it in my children.
Go feed your children tofu and organic edamame and give them nothing because it is not what Christmas is about to you, but for me, I want my children to believe in magic, have hot chocolate, and peppermint bark. I want them to feel, see, taste, touch and smell the beauty of Christmas.
If yours dont, fine, but mine sure will. And they will remember those Christmases.
Comment by Crystal — December 25, 2009 @ 2:43 am
AADDs—I love your solution: honest but without killing the sense of mystery and wonder. How ingenious to wrap an age-limited fantasy in an age-unlocked explanation.
And now I can’t help imagining the scene:
—Daddy, what’s a metaphor?”
Comment by a man Zed — December 25, 2009 @ 3:18 am
Oh, Santa is totally real to me.
I don’t remember the point at which I became aware that he’s not literal (though it could have been the moment I made my mom confess to being the tooth fairy, ~7yo), but I know it wasn’t traumatic because I was immediately deputized as an Elf and have happily been one ever since. The magic wasn’t a lie, it just turned out to be something different than what my self-absorbed grade school self expected: It didn’t inhabit a fat man in a red suit, it was in me — in my ability to think of others, to guard important secrets, to be generous. And it was (is!) in the faces of the kids (first my younger siblings, now my daughters) on Christmas morning when they see that Somebody Important remembered them and loves them. The literal existence of Santa is entirely beside the point when you have real elves at work, IMHO.
I can see how some might feel betrayed when they find out the truth (DH was — he tells me it pissed him off), but that’s why I think it’s important to have something even realer (is that a word? LOL), even better — selflessness cast as adventure! — to replace the myth. And that’s why I’ll deputize my girls as soon as they’re ready (and hope they think it’s as fabulous a job as I do!).
Comment by RCH — December 25, 2009 @ 3:18 am
Instilling the “spirit” of Santa is great, Crystal, and I don’t think anyone has taken issue with that.
It sounds like your family had been blessed with that spirit that you are speaking of. And we honor that as well.
I think what people get concerned about with their children is different than what you are describing here. We wonder if pushing the LITERAL idea of an actual, physical person that travels around the entire world in one evening delivering gifts to all the good boys and girls of the world is wise.
The concerns are centered around trust, commercialism, anti-materialism, etc. Not that anyone wants to take away the idea of generous and anonymous giving.
Kids just tend to be literal and the idea of Santa can potenitally trump the greater lesson most of want to teach our children. If our kids think that there is a literal man, capable of delivering anything they wish, that, in my opinion takes away from the true value of giving and being outwardly-focused.
But, then again, it is 2:30 a.m. so, maybe I am just too tired to convey anything of value at this point.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 25, 2009 @ 3:26 am
Santa IS real. I’m serious! He has better technology than us. That’s all.
Comment by Tatiana — December 25, 2009 @ 7:36 am
Now that my children are adults, discussions of Santa don’t come up very often. However, when they were little ones, we did the whole Santa thing. I think having dreams is a good thing and seeing the world as a fun giving place is also good.
Comment by StillConfused — December 25, 2009 @ 11:11 am
Okay people, I’m at work. What’s your excuse for being on FMH today.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 25, 2009 @ 11:35 am
What’s your excuse for being on FMH today.
I don’t need an excuse - I’m a heathen. My holiday was three days ago.
Comment by Chandelle — December 25, 2009 @ 11:53 am
Cool, Chandelle, you are excused. That is a great reason.
Also, my sister does an awesome solstice celebration. They always save a couple gifts to celebrate with us too, but she and her daughter have created all sorts of fun new traditions.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 25, 2009 @ 11:57 am
My parents are coming in today, so we’ll be doing the gift exchange with them. We celebrate the Solstice for three days so we can still squeeze stuff in on the 25th.
Hope it’s a wonderful day for you, Natalie K., despite having to work!
Comment by Chandelle — December 25, 2009 @ 1:52 pm
I didn’t do Santa, but then, until I remarried, we didn’t do much Christmas, either. Midnight Mass is a family tradition, along with opening ONE present when we get home….this is an out and out bribe to let Mama sleep in!
But I told the kids there was no Santa. And whenever they started talking about what they wanted, I basically said, “Well, that’s nice. What shall we give_______?” Shifting the emphasis neatly from what they wanted—oh that’s kind of boring, wanting stuff all the time—-to what can we give to others, which is cool? And since we had no money, we made cookies and carefully picked out ONE perfect present for people. I also involved each kid in helping to pick out the other’s presents. Much fun!
Comment by fuzzy — December 25, 2009 @ 2:59 pm
Santa and Satan are spelled using the same letters. They wear the same colors too. And employ diminutive inhuman servants. It’s so clear!
Comment by O — December 25, 2009 @ 4:35 pm
O. Haha.
I love it.
Sigh. Two more hours of my shift left, then I can go home and start celebrating!
I hope Santa stopped by my house while I’ve been at work with a TON of gifts.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 25, 2009 @ 4:37 pm
Reminds me of a sitcom I saw years ago — that one with Michael J. Fox working in the NYC mayor’s office; what was that called? The ditzy mayor was giving a holiday speech for of a group of mothers and young children, but misread his notes (without realizing he had done so):
I believe every child should have the opportunity to experience the magic of Satan!
Made me laugh.
Comment by RCH — December 25, 2009 @ 6:59 pm
#58 - Spin City
I completely agree with CJ.
Comment by Risa — December 25, 2009 @ 8:14 pm
Santa may not be a living person, but he is not imaginary. He once did live although not at the North Pole with elves and reindeer. St. Nickolaus was a real person who helped people. I know that is an oversimplification. The point it he set an example of selfless service.
It just might be a good thing to teach children that giving is a will make them happy. If we decide to emphasize receiving over giving not just at Christmas but at any time of the year then we are doing our children a disservice. When we emphasize the joy that comes from being kind and friendly and meeting the world with a cheerful attitude then we are accomplishing something worth while. I’m glad Santa is part of that tradition.
At least Santa doesn’t teach children to go to door to door extorting some kind of treat from their neighbors once a year.
Comment by Claudia — December 25, 2009 @ 9:04 pm
To me and My family Santa is real… though as my children ask questions I tell them the truth, this year I told my 6 yr old that Rudolph was not real, that he is a story… I feel if I am as honest as possible now, that he will know when he asks me serious questions in the future he will always get the truth. Santa is the SPIRIT of Christmas. When we give to someone anonymously we are being a Santa to them.
Comment by April — December 25, 2009 @ 9:39 pm
I grew up in a non-Christian household, a vaguely Jewish one actually. There’s no pretense about Hanukkah gifts: they are given and received in a sprit of joy from one family member to another. That’s a heck of a lot more meaningful and magical to me than the crass, commercialized Coca-Cola Santa.
Also, 8 days of festivities are way better than one, and potato pancakes are better than gingerbread cookies!
Comment by Bro. Jones — December 26, 2009 @ 2:20 am
I’ve never looked my kids in the eye and told them Santa was real. I have never denied it either. When my daughter was 4 she asked us point blank about Santa and we told her the truth, but we also told her that it was an important tradition and a really fun imagination game to play and she wasn’t to spoil it for her 3 year old brother. She never has.
Meanwhile, he’s now 8 and still believes in Santa Claus. I think this year I will tell him it’s all been an ARG (Alternate Reality Game). He may be able to get into that.
Comment by meems — December 26, 2009 @ 10:00 am
My agnostic (at best), most likely atheistic, in-laws are horrified that we do NOT do the Santa thing with our children. They are also horrified that we DO teach our children the “myths” of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. I find this contradiction totally hilarious.
I guess even agnostics and atheists need something to believe in, even if it is a fat man with flying reindeer.
Comment by sam — December 26, 2009 @ 10:09 am
sam, as an atheist I can tell you that I definitely understand that inconsistency, and that’s why we don’t “do” Santa in our house. So a blanket statement on all agnostics and atheists doesn’t apply.
Comment by Chandelle — December 26, 2009 @ 2:28 pm
sam, perhaps it is not that they “need something to believe in, even if it is a fat man with flying reindeer.” Perhaps it is that they consider the myth of Santa Claus more harmless than some of the mythologies and dangerous beliefs that surround and arise from what many who call themselves “Christians” have constructed around Jesus Christ. “Christians” have, on the whole, throughout much of time, done quite a bit of damage and been a pretty dangerous lot. On the other hand, not much harm has ever come out of the cult which teaches about flying reindeer, elves, and toys and sweets dropped down the chimney, other than perhaps a bit more tooth decay.
Comment by Lorian — December 26, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
My kids, at 8, are starting to question whether Santa’s real. This year they’ve been particularly astute — sweating the details of whether the writing on “Santa’s” presents looks like mom’s writing, whether the reindeer actually at the oats mixed with glitter we left in a bowl on the front step for their midnight snacking pleasure, etc.
I’m willing to have them go on believing for as long as they want to. I think they know the truth, but would like to hang onto the fun for a bit longer (the Tooth Fairy just visited last night, BTW
). I’ll continue to play along with it for as long as it’s fun for them. When they ask me outright, I just say (what my Mom said to me), “What do YOU think?” When they announce their current state of belief or disbelief, I neither confirm nor deny — just give a mysterious smile and a shrug.
It’s fun. It’s sweet, It’s innocent. I didn’t hate my parents for doing it when I figured out the truth, and my kids won’t hate me for it. They’ll remember it fondly, as I do, as a cultural tradition that adds a touch of magic to a time of year that easily loses its magic as we grow older.
Comment by Lorian — December 26, 2009 @ 3:24 pm
Way to go, Sam. And really, “horrified”? Or simply disappointed?
Athiests and agnostics have beliefs. They just aren’t the same as yours so therefore… oh, nevermind…
Comment by numi — December 26, 2009 @ 5:05 pm
The “what do you think?” line is a great one for SO many situations. It saves you from answering questions they aren’t even asking
Comment by britt — December 27, 2009 @ 12:07 am
Re: CJ (#7) and LL (#9),
In total respect for how you deal with Santa, what do you think about this. . .
I was reading The Polar Express to my son; a boy gets a bell from Santa that only those who believe in Santa can hear. The very last page talks about how at first all of his friends could hear the bell and eventually they couldn’t hear it anymore but even though he’s old (the boy) he can still hear the bell because he still believes.
So here I am at the last page with the bit about the old man-boy still being able to hear the bell and I had this thought: (and I’m interested to see if you’ll shoot me down or not) maybe Santa is a kind of preparatory gospel for believing in God. Sort of like you could argue that Joseph Smith’s treasure seeking and forays in magic and seer stones and whatnot were a sort of preparatory gospel for believing in angles and hidden gold plates. Perhaps, you say, that there is a break-down in logic here, Santa isn’t real. Well, maybe magic and hidden treasure isn’t real either but (maybe) it helped JS get ready for an equally unbelievable venture IMO, the golden plates and angelic visitation. Is this making sense? I guess I’m saying maybe we can tolerate the Santa myth because it is a sort of stepping stone to believing in God or other things you don’t see. What to you think? Am I way far gone on this one?
As a side note, the rule in my house has always been if you don’t believe in Santa, Santa won’t believe in you (i.e. he won’t bring you presents.)
Comment by lache — December 27, 2009 @ 10:47 pm
Maybe this is the most selfish way to see this….But when I have kids I want them to know that those gifts came from ME! I worked hard for the mula to pay for them DANGIT! :o)
When I was a kid I got very few gifts from my parents (mainly socks and things I thought were super lame back then) and one nice toy from Santa… I remember thinking that my parents must not really know me or care since they got me all lame gifts…. Or something like that…
Looking back… That was a pretty bratty thing to think… But still.
Comment by jujubean — December 28, 2009 @ 12:05 pm
lache, though I get what you’re trying to say, I actually think that is the most inappropriate way to present Santa. As several people have stated, finding out about Santa can lead people to doubt the existence of God. Portraying Santa in any sort of “faith-based, you just-gotta-believe” manner only heightens the probability that the “finding out” fallout might lead to doubt of divine things.
I don’t think we should encourage our children to develop faith and belief in things that, ultimately, we’re going to ask them to abandon later.
Comment by Natalie K. — December 28, 2009 @ 1:10 pm
Here’s my script when my kids ask about whether Santa is real:
Comment by Christian — December 28, 2009 @ 1:19 pm
Here’s an interesting article on the role of imagination in a child’s development
Comment by Alliegator — December 28, 2009 @ 4:17 pm
(it talks about belief in santa)
Comment by Alliegator — December 28, 2009 @ 4:17 pm
lache, #70,
First of all, I do want to make it clear that I don’t think that introducing the idea of Santa is evil or wicked or that it will mark the beginning of the end of all of our children’s faith. What I meant to convey, though, admittedly done poorly, is that I think there is a potential danger is pushing the issue year after year, even after a child has expressed doubts. My parents (somewhat) and my grandparents (especially) went to great, great lengths to insist that Santa was real and when we were old enough to begin to question the logic of it, we were sort of scoffed at and guilted into believing in Santa.
“What? You don’t believe in SANTA!?!?!? Well, Christi still believes in Santa and Santa knows that and she’s going to get lots of presents from Santa this year.” (Not the exact phrase, maybe, but similar type things were said)
So, while logic was still stuck there in your mind, you felt a little guilty about doubting and a little afraid that maybe, just maybe (despite your logical conclusions) Santa is real and you won’t get any gifts for Christmas this year. So, you play along and stop the questions and help perpetuate the myth, all the while that lingering (and for me, really strong) doubt stayed. So you don’t really actually believe in Santa. You try to pretend that you do so that you aren’t made to feel guilty by the adults and you don’t get shafted by the maybe-Santa.
Then 2 or 3 or whatever years later it’s finally confirmed that Santa is not real and you’re just left feeling kinda silly. Kinda duped. I don’t know, I wasn’t exactly conscious of those thoughts at the time, just very cognizant of the feelings.
It’s kind of like the battles I choose to pick with my kids. I really, really, really don’t want my children to ever drink and drive or do drugs. I push this idea early, often and firmly. I also don’t want my son to wear his pants too low around his waste. I think that current trend is stupid. But, I know it isn’t really that important so I don’t fight that battle. If I fight and fight and fight that battle, then have that same persistent and serious “fight” over the drug and alcohol stuff, it might just sound like more of the same. There might not be as much of a distinction between the level of importance between the two.
Same principle applies here. “There really, really, really is a Santa. You have to believe! It’s so fun! Santa brings shiny toys to those who believe!” “Really?” “Yes, really! Who do you think eats the cookies we leave out? How do you think those reindeer tracks in the snow got there (favorite one of my grandparents)? Santa is fun! Look what Santa brought!”
I dunno, then we adamantly tell our children, “yes I know you don’t see God, or hear God, but he is real. You can feel his Spirit.” “Really?” “Yes, really. You have to believe. In order to get your gift of eternity, you have to believe!”
Like I said, not a foregone conclusion by any means, but I’m afraid the rational is too similar to risk pushing it with our children. Especially when there is disappointment several times over when we subsequently learn there is no Easter Bunny, no tooth fairy, no lochness monster, etc., etc,. etc. Oh. But God? No, that one is real. Really.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 28, 2009 @ 6:51 pm
#62 not my gingerbread cookies
Decades ago, when my eldest daughter was five, she visited a friend on the day after Christmas. Her friend was the daughter of the richest couple in our ward-her daddy sold orthopedic stuff. They had gone away for 3 days before Christmas and a decorator had come in and completely redone the child’s room. She also got over $1000 worth of toys, including one of those ride on battery powered cars. She told my daughter later that day at our house that she didn’t get as much stuff from Santa because she wasn’t as good. Both girls got the full truth with both barrels. My subsequent darlings were carefully taught that Santa was a fun myth based on the wonderful truth of St Nicholas. I love Santa, I collect miniature Santas. I make the best Santa Claus cookies ever, and gave them out for years in my wards. I explain metaphor to any who ask me. I also make sure there are more nativities than Santas up every year.
I now serve in a Young Singles Ward and I am more convinced than ever that parents should not lie to their kids-not for fun, not for the greater good, and not out of laziness. Lying is a proud, controlling behavior. Answering questions honestly shows respect for the child. I teach Institute and regularly see the lack of integrity of parents visited on the heads and hearts of the children. If they ask point blank for the truth, give them the truth. Think of God in James 1:5 as the parental example.
Comment by Karen — December 28, 2009 @ 9:08 pm
My parents really went to great lengths when we were little to keep that magic alive for us all… and I am glad they did. I think it was harmless fun and made for some wonderful, lasting memories. When we became wise to what was going on and asked enough questions they didn’t try to keep it going, they told us the deal and we were not scarred by the experience. I think it sort of helps teach you to believe in the things you cannot see and to have hope and in this world faith and hope are not bad things to have tucked away for a rainy day.
Comment by Travelin' Pants — December 29, 2009 @ 2:16 am
I second and third “CJ” at #1.
Telling kids about Santa teaches them to be good for a reward in a serious, calculated way.
When you’ve told them about Santa as if he were real, and then they find out, they’ll start asking questions about Heavenly Father: Is he an imaginary, fun character, too?
Did I say it teaches selfishness? People really have used Santa to “buy” good behavior from their kids…
Sorry, I’m a real spoilsport when it comes to Santa. Our kids have always done fine without him. They don’t have a weirded-out relationship with Santa now — our grandson saw Santa, but he also saw mom making those packages he later got, and when the time comes that he’s curious, he’ll be told, that it’s an act we put on to have fun — never that Santa’s supposedly real. We’ll see how the other grandkids will get it…
Comment by Velska — December 29, 2009 @ 6:03 pm
I don’t work really hard at the Santa illusion, and I never use Santa as a bribe to elicit good behavior from my children, but I let my children believe in Santa and I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I worried about it a lot at first because my dad (an atheist) likes to joke that we tell our kids lies like Santa, the Easter bunny, and Jesus. But this year I’ve decided that I can use it to teach my children a bigger lesson in the long run.
I’ll start with the tooth fairy, because it’s easier to see the value. My five year old son was very anxious about his tooth being loose. He worries a lot and hates blood and the thought of losing a tooth was very stressful for him. We talked to him about why it happens, stories about our first lost tooth, etc., but mentioning that he would get money for putting a lost tooth under his pillow gave him something to look forward to. I don’t think helping your child deal with something in a creative way is the deception some people think it is.
Anyway, I see value in Santa as well. Children generally don’t know about poverty, starvation, and other atrocities in the real world. Let them think there’s a wonderful person who loves all children and brings them toys on Christmas. When they’re old enough to understand it’s not literal, they can become Santa themselves and show to others the love and generosity that the character embodies.
My son is in kindergarten and a friend of his told him that Santa isn’t real. When he asked me if Santa was real, I told him yes. I also told him that it’s ok for his friend not to believe in Santa, that everyone doesn’t believe all the same things and that it’s ok. It doesn’t mean he’s wrong and it doesn’t mean his friend is wrong. We just believe different things. I’m hoping this will help him later when religion comes up with non-members. Also, I think a lot of problems in the world could be avoided if we stopped persisting in the belief that we are right and all others must then be wrong.
Comment by Kimarie — December 30, 2009 @ 2:51 pm
My kids don’t believe in Santa, but want to. (ages 13, 10, 7, and 4) So they pretend to believe and I pretend I don’t know they don’t believe.
Comment by kandi and salt — December 30, 2009 @ 4:38 pm
We teach the kids form the beginning that Santa is a pretend charecter. I’m honestly not bugged by the “lie” theory and I don’t think it’s harmful to faith in God or parent relationships. It’s just that I want the thanks, respect, and hugs to go to the actual gift-givers! Christmas is a special enough time with the Birth thing, the family and parties and all the presents, I don’t think my kids are missing out one bit.
Comment by cchrissyy — December 31, 2009 @ 1:03 am
This has been a great thread. DH and I don’t have kids yet, but we’ve recently mused over what we’re going to do about the Santa issue, and we’ve loved some of the ideas presented here.
Anyhow, a fantastic read related to belief and Santa is The Hogfather by Terry Pratchett–a British humor fantasy novel about the Discworld’s “Santa.” So incredibly clever it’s one of my favorite books of all time.
Comment by Motion de Smiths — January 3, 2010 @ 9:48 pm
Zech. 2: 6
6 ¶ Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the Lord: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the Lord.
Sounds like Santa to me!
Comment by wistfulblue — January 9, 2010 @ 11:40 pm
We don’t make a big deal of Santa. My oldest two pretty much figured it out on their own, so we never talked about it.
My third, however, (age 5) broke down crying tonight when he realized that Santa never brought him the sled or yo-yo he asked for in his letter to him. These aren’t any of the 3 things on his list. Each child makes his own list and then chooses his top 3 items, and that’s what he gets for Christmas from mom and dad. “Santa” does the stockings. That’s how we do Christmas. I didn’t realize that this son literally still believed in Santa and thought that Santa would bring him something (a sled? in Texas?) I’m really not sure how to handle this. My poor kid’s heart is broken.
Comment by Stephanie — January 10, 2010 @ 12:07 am
As long as Santa is a fairy tale, and the kids know it, it’s fine. If he’s made out to be real, at some point kids start wondering if Jesus is a fairy tale, too.
Comment by Velska — January 11, 2010 @ 12:24 pm