The Talk
By: Ms. Jack Meyers
Jack Meyers is a never-Mormon and a member of the Evangelical Covenant Church. She holds a bachelor’s degree in classics from Brigham Young University and is currently on her first year of a master’s in history of Christianity in America at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Her husband is an active member of the LDS Church.
The other day, DH and I had “the talk,” as in the “when are we having another baby” talk.
Currently DH and I are the proud parents of one child, a daughter born in June of 2006. Our daughter has some special needs in the form of a rare genetic disorder known as 22q11.2 deletion syndrome, a. k. a. velo-cardio-facial syndrome, sometimes mistakenly labeled “DiGeorge Syndrome.” Explaining what that is and how it effects her is complicated, but suffer it to say that several times a year, I attend meetings with an entire panel of health care and education professionals to assess her delays and determine the best course of action in meeting her needs.
Back when the LORD opened my womb and I didst conceive, I was a graduate student on my first year of the MA / U. S. History program at the University of Utah. You may have noticed that my introduction says nothing about currently holding a master’s. A lot of things happened during my year at the U to make this former overachiever drop out, but pregnancy was a major factor. I’m not sure that being pregnant and a graduate student is among my talents that come naturally.
Which brings us to the situation at hand. Assuming I stay on schedule, I won’t be finished with the current master’s degree until May of 2011. However, I’m almost positive that this degree won’t be the final one. Option A is for me to pursue a master’s in library science and go into curatorial work, and several universities in the Midwest offer this degree entirely online. Option B is to pursue a PhD in American Christian history and teach at the college level. Option C is to get both of those degrees and go with teaching or curatorial work, wherever my path takes me. So I’m looking at 3-7.5 more years of school. (The job market for archiving is much better, or so I am told.)
I’m almost 28 years old. Waiting three more years to have more children is feasible. Waiting 7-8 more years seems like a bad idea. Here’s the other details of our situation:
- DH is willing to become a full-time SAHP, assuming I can support our family on my income alone.
- I admire women who enjoy being pregnant. I’m not one of them. When people ask me whether we’re going to have more children anytime soon, I usually just joke that I haven’t developed enough amnesia to forget what a terrible experience pregnancy and childbirth were the first time around. (Thank you, Jenny McCarthy.)
- That said, my first pregnancy and childbirth were not abnormally difficult. I was poorly prepared for what to expect, and I handled it badly. I believe I could handle the balancing act better if I tried again.
- We think three children would be nice, but we might stop at two. If we do go for three, part of me would like to have them as close together as possible so that we can be “done” with the childbearing phase of our lives.
- My husband is not putting any pressure on me to do this sooner rather than later. He’s more than willing to wait until the time is right for us. His only request is that we do have more eventually.
What I would like to hear from you, fMh: advice on the possibility of having children while working on post-graduate degrees. How do you balance the two out?
Please bear in mind that I am not LDS. I’m well aware of what the church teaches on the matter, but I simply don’t agree that it is every woman’s divine responsibility to have as many children as her family can support and do it sooner rather than later. I believe I have a sacred calling to the other goals I’m currently pursuing and I’m okay with making that my priority.
When I saw the title at Mormon Archipelago I assumed this was going to be having the sex talk with your kids (another good subject for a FMH post if anyone wants to take it on).
My advice would be to talk to some folks at your school. My impression is that it’s a very nurturing place. There may be women who have navigated being pregnant and in a grad program there you could talk to. Or they may be willing to make concessions to accomodate you in various ways.
My basic thought is that where you are now is a known, and the future is an unknown. And given the genuinely decent nature of the people there, if you are intent on having one or two more children eventually, my guess is that you will have better luck doing it at the front end where you are now than later when you may be in a more secular and perhaps much less forgiving and nurturing environment.
Comment by Kevin Barney — December 26, 2009 @ 2:23 pm
Hi, Jack. I had my first baby when I was finishing up my MA and while it was no picnic, I was really happy that I went ahead and did it. I did NOT want to subconsciously resent my baby for making me stop my education, so I plowed ahead and finished up my classes at 8-1/2 months pregnant, had the baby, finished my master’s thesis by the time she was 6 weeks old, and was relieved when it was all over! Even though it was hard, and I’m glad I did it, and I’m sure I’d do it again, I do feel ambivalent because I felt I didn’t get to enjoy my pregnancy as much as I could’ve because I was so focused elsewhere.
To specifically answer your question, how to balance the two? I was able to finish up my work by having my mom come over and watch the baby while I went out to the library or locked myself in my bedroom. This was the only way I could do it. I needed uninterrupted TIME to work work work, without too many distracting thoughts of my cute little newborn.
In other words, it can be done, but you need support. It’s too hard to try and do it all alone!
Comment by meems — December 26, 2009 @ 2:29 pm
I didn’t have kids until I finished my degrees. There was a 10 year span between starting the PhD and finishing it. I was 35 when I finally finished.
When I was in school, I just never wanted kids enough to change “how things were” in order make room for kids. Having said that, I knew enough people who had kids while grad students, while hunting for jobs, while holding down tenure-track jobs, and while holding post-tenure positions to know that there is no perfect time to balance all that chaos. Alternately phrased, any time is a good time to do it, if you believe the time is right to expand your family.
For myself, I decided at 35-ish to have kids. I had my first child when I was 38 and my second when I was 42. I do not at all regret waiting. I took care of one big commitment before starting the next. I was old and tough enough to deal with the medical system without being overwhelmed. I am a bit daunted at how their college educations and our retirement ages will coincide, but we’ll cope.
I assume that your daughter’s genetic disorder is unlikely to happen to a second child or to increase in likelihood with your age? Will she be happier being a lot older than her sibling(s) or just a little older?
Comment by Valerie — December 26, 2009 @ 2:53 pm
I had my first baby just as I finished my coursework for my MA. I completed my thesis with him sitting on my lap, and it was a lot harder than I expected it would be. “I’ll just write while he’s napping,” I said while I was pregnant. Ha! With a lot of help from my mom, I finished the thesis when he was six months. He’s almost ten now, and my youngest of four just turned three, and I’m flirting with the idea of going back to school. I’m scared though, because I don’t know if being a student will ever be as high a priority in my life again as being a mom, and the overachieving student in me worries about schoolwork suffering at the expense of family. At the same time, I’m almost 35, and I wonder if I put it off too much longer if I’ll find a few years down the road that the window of opportunity has closed.
Comment by Shelah — December 26, 2009 @ 3:02 pm
Jack, side note — I didn’t realize you were Covenant. I knew you had an evangelical background, but didn’t know your current affiliation. You probably remember I grew up in the Assembly of God, but you may not know that I took my Bachelor’s degree at North Park.
And, coincidentally, my sister took her M.Div. at Trinity. Very. Small. World.
Anyway, I can’t speak to being pregnant while in school, but I will say that the older you are, the more pregnancy sucks, at least from my own experience. We started trying when I was 32, went quite quickly to heavy-duty infertility treatments, and I spent most of the next 7 years progressing from oral fertility meds (gateway drugs, I guess…
) to the entire gamut of injectibles, and more IVF than I can even remember - three “retrieval cycles” totalling 66 fertilized embryos, and as many “transfer cycles” as it took to use up EVERY single one of them.
I got pregnant on the last transfer (4 blastocysts — got pregnant with twins) a few months after my 39th birthday spent most of the next 33 weeks on bedrest due to various combinations of bleeding and pre-term labor. They were due about a week or so before my 40th birthday, but came 7 weeks early. I won’t go into the whole story, but suffice to say that my body has never been the same, or even close to some semblance of recognizable. Pregnancy at 39/40 is really hard. I have friends who’ve been through it at older ages than I, and, while they’re glad they did, I’d venture to say that few of them found it much fun. Aches and pains are magnified; you’re in the “high-risk category” (generally anyone over 35), so you’re subject to more frequent monitoring and a much greater risk of “interventions.” It’s just not much fun (assuming pregnancy can be described as “fun” to begin with).
And while I feel I’m probably a better mother overall than I would have been in my 20’s or perhaps even in my 30’s, I certainly don’t have the energy and physical stamina I did back then. I have ongoing physical problems left from my pregnancy and the fertility work that led to it. It’s just hard.
I can’t say what will work best for you, and I’m sure I don’t have to point out the stats on your increasing risk for both infertility and genetic defects year-by-year as you age. But I thought perhaps my experience could bring just a bit of nuance to your considerations. Can you have a baby in your late 30’s, early 40’s, and even older? Yes, of course. A friend of mine had her twins at 48. Is it the easiest way to go? Not really.
Good luck with whatever you decide. It’s hard — maybe impossible — to have everything that we want and achieve everything we wish to achieve. I hope that if you find you must compromise, that you compromise in whatever way brings you the most happiness and fulfillment.
Comment by Lorian — December 26, 2009 @ 3:06 pm
I had my second child half way through my MPP. My profs were all very accommodating and colleges were happy to help. I think it would have actually been tougher to do while working at a real job, as my student schedule was very flexible.
As a possible glimmer of hope, my two pregnancies were pretty different. Maybe you’ll have a feel-great-no-problem-pregnancy the second time around.
I also vacillate between the have ‘em fast and get it over approach vs. spread ‘em out and be more sane. For me each new baby is like hitting the reset button–5 more years to kindergarten. What to do? What to do?
Comment by lache — December 26, 2009 @ 3:07 pm
Hmmm. . . . there’s lots of talk of overachieving in this post. I just finished reading The Underachiever’s Manifesto, The Guide to Accomplishing Little and Feeling Great and am feeling the need to preach the good word. Check it out!
Comment by lache — December 26, 2009 @ 3:12 pm
I finished my master’s degree before having my baby. However, I think the decision to have a child is always an extremely personal one that depends on many factors, such as: is it likely your second pregnancy will be as difficult as your first? How flexible would your professors be? Would the amount of special care your daughter needs make it difficult to care for a new baby? Can you handle another baby financially?
There are some factors that you just can’t predict, like whether the new baby will be the kind that sleeps for hours on end and can be schlepped anywhere in a carseat, or whether s/he will be the kind (like mine) who never sleeps more than 20 minutes at a time and who cries nonstop for the first three months of life.
Like you, I had a very difficult pregnancy that required two months of bed rest. Had I been in school, I probably would have had to take a semester off. Fortunately I had been with my employer for several years, gained their trust, and was allowed to work from home while on bed rest, rather than use up my leave. I was also very grateful to have four months of maternity leave, during which time I could focus 100% on myself and my baby.
I guess what I’m saying is that I think having a second baby would be very doable if you had a healthy pregnancy and easy recovery, if your graduate program were flexible and understanding, if your baby turned out to be really calm, if your daughter were able to be a mommy’s helper, and if you had a lot of support from your husband and/or other family. I think it would be extremely challenging if any of those conditions was not met.
There was a woman in my grad program who started out with a 5-month-old baby and had another baby about five months before graduation. She miraculously timed it so her delivery happened over winter break, and then she came back to class in January. It must have been really hard, but I think her logic was that it would be hard to have a baby after just starting a new job too.
I don’t know that there’s ever a perfectly ideal time to have a baby. I waited a long time to have mine, and I kept thinking that at some point I would feel ready. But that time never came, and eventually my desire was strong enough that I was ready to just take a deep breath and jump.
Good luck in whatever decision you make!
Comment by Sofia — December 26, 2009 @ 3:31 pm
OK, two thoughts:
One, I don’t think it’s an issue of either/or–as in, decide to pursue your education while having another child, or wait to have another child. I think that the first order of business is probably figuring out what you want for yourself, career-wise. Once you’ve chosen a path, and taken a few steps onto that path (e.g. once you’re a semester or two into your chosen program), you’ll probably have a much clearer idea of what you want–and what you feel comfortable with. Trying to figure out your grad school path, and your career path, is a mind-blowingly stressful, difficult time–trust me, I know. In any time of such great uncertainty, I’m not sure it’s a great idea to make too many firm decisions. Wait until you know what you’re really deciding on.
Two, I feel somewhat compelled to defend–or, rather, I should say, explain–my religion. Now, I don’t know that I agree with your summary of the LDS position. Certainly, there has been some prophetic counsel to hurry up–particular in certain issues of the Ensign. However, it’s been my personal experience that the church is actually pretty accepting of non-Molly Mormon members. I know a number of professional women who are also faithful LDS. Speaking only for myself, I guess you could say I put my career first, and I’ve received nothing but support and understanding from bishops and church leaders. I hope my experience, and that of my friends, isn’t unique.
Comment by CJ — December 26, 2009 @ 3:43 pm
It takes courage to choose to become pregnant. I only chose it twice out of my four kids (the first and the last).
Life doesn’t necessarily get easier in later stages (either your own or your children’s different stages)….you can’t really predict it. So, if you want another child, now might be as good a time as later.
Comment by jks — December 26, 2009 @ 4:09 pm
I would guess it totally would depend on your program and your baby. I am 4.5 years into a PhD program that I don’t really enjoy very much, so that definitely colors my opinion. I had my first baby 2 years into my program after mostly finishing my coursework. He was really hard, hardly ever napped, had lots of separation anxiety, and still at 2.5 doesn’t sleep through the night. So, he was a really difficult baby. But the real problem was I have always been way more committed to being a stay-at-home mom than to my grad program, so I have never used more than 10 hours of babysitting each week, while my husband is in a 9-5 in the lab sort of PhD program. With a difficult baby, trying to do a graduate degree with little babysitting and during (non-existent) naps and nightime is a nightmare. It looks like it might work on paper, but for me it did not work at all.
Even then, I think it would have worked better (i.e. with me being happier) if I had any of the following - interest in using more babysitting hours, a more flexible husband, more interest in my degree program, or family close by.
That said, for who knows what reason (mostly how much I hate to quit anything), I continued and had a “surprise” baby 2 years later (last summer, 4 years into my program). I basically have really let everything slide - I don’t use a babysitter hardly at all and the naps of the boys never overlap, so I basically only work 3 hours a night. I am slowly working towards my degree and at this point will probably finish by the end of 2010 and I will be SO happy to be done.
I think it can be done, especially with a great advisor (like mine), who basically doesn’t care how fast I work, as long as I am making some progress. I love my boys and am so glad that I had them. And I want to have more, too. Looking back, I really wish I had just quit when the first was born and stayed at home, so I could have used my little free time to relax and recoup. I definitely would have made me more happy and probably a nicer mom, too. I definitely learned that trying to work by fitting around my kids is too hard for me psychologically / mentally. So, I definitely have different ideas about if I’ll pursue part-time work opportunities while the kids are young. That is definitely different than the ideas I had coming into this process.
But if you are willing and happy to use child care and love what you are doing, I think doing it is very feasible and honestly can be a very flexible time to have kids. For my program (granted, it is engineering which is very different than liberal arts), it worked well, just not for me (if that makes sense). Just realize, things make work out differently than you expect and plans may change.
Comment by A.Kay — December 26, 2009 @ 4:10 pm
It could be that your answer lies in your own words:
“We think three children would be nice, but we might stop at two. If we do go for three, part of me would like to have them as close together as possible so that we can be “done” with the childbearing phase of our lives.”
Since you already have one, perhaps you should just get to it.
Comment by barmy stoat — December 26, 2009 @ 4:32 pm
I wouls say it totally depends on you and your husband and baby. I had my first just as I graduated MA (missed graduation as I was in the hospital), and fully intended to go back after one year. It didn`t work out - not only did “d”h have no interest in helping out, but we live in another country to our families so no help from there, plus I just wasn`t superwoman enough to be able to go to school, run the house, and take care of a baby. So I dropped out. I had another friend the same - and she is WAY cleverer than me, but she also said for her, doing both was impossible, so she too is home with her children.
Comment by namakemono — December 26, 2009 @ 4:51 pm
I say follow your heart, and work that out with your husband. You sound very analytical about the whole thing. If money were no object, what would you do? Take that answer and do it, or if not practical, do the next best or closest thing that you can both get behind.
I personally was not able to mix pregnancy or parenting with serious schooling or working.
Comment by venus — December 26, 2009 @ 4:59 pm
#4 Shelah The window of opportunity never closes and there is no set time you need to give yourself. It is so individual. Though I do recommend taking a few classes each year and you may find your longing for a actual program not as strong.Or your idea of what you want to go into may have changed in the past 10 years. Who knows you may end up getting another Masters instead of PHD, which in these days on-line and evening classes is incredibly feasible. As far as your obsession with being a good student it could be unhealthy, at least it was for me. I think its just about learning to have faith that if you put a certain amount aside and no more, that you can achieve the needed goal. So take a class to fulfill the student in you. Try to look at the long term goal, I have had to do this a lot. NO employer is going to know I got the highest grad in ancient Greek, they only know I graduated. You can do it if you change your perception of perfection. Good Luck!
Comment by CZ — December 26, 2009 @ 5:00 pm
D&C 10:4:
Yes, this was counsel to JS during the BOM translation, but one Bishop quoted this to us when we discussed about when to stop having children.
Note that we are to multiply & replenish the Earth, but nothing about multiplying for the rest of the solar system…
It’s sooo hard to tell what will be ahead when you decide to have another child.
Me too.
Comment by Mike H. — December 26, 2009 @ 5:33 pm
As my PhD chair said, I had something to deliver before a baby (i.e., a dissertation). The woman knows me well, so I trusted her and finished my PhD; DH and I are trying, but my ovaries aren’t cooperating. (Well, we’ll be trying in March. I’m chairing a conference in November and need to make sure I’m not delivering there.)
Then again. I have another friend who finished her PhD the year after me and had her two kids in her program and finished on time. Her hubby was very supportive and helped stay home with the kids.
Basically, I’m no help. I think each situation is different, but the fact that you have your hubby willing to help (and possibly stay) at home is a significant difference from many of us. Good luck.
Comment by that1girl — December 26, 2009 @ 5:36 pm
I’m working on a PhD and have two small children. As long as you have good, regular childcare and you can dial your guilt down about leaving them there even on your less productive days (it’s the doing-a-little-bit-no-matter-how-little-every-day that makes the difference), I haven’t found it much more difficult than a regular job. That is, it’s crazy and we’re all a bit frazzled, but it’s do-able. Good luck!
Comment by Kerry — December 26, 2009 @ 5:48 pm
Jana wrote this post over at the Exponent a few months back and I think it’s a great post. It will become my bible whenever I get around to going back to school.
Comment by mraynes — December 26, 2009 @ 6:00 pm
I haven’t really been in the position that you find yourself. I dropped out of school due to my son’s problems and haven’t been back. The only advice I do have is that I agree with barmy stoat. I have also found that waiting does make it riskier to have children in the sense that your body may decide you are not having any or your health may not be up to par. I wish you good thoughts as you try to make your decision!
Comment by Sonia — December 26, 2009 @ 6:25 pm
I had a (unexpected) baby towards the end of PhD coursework. I have easy pregnancies, so I actually had a baby over Thanksgiving and then went back to classes for finals. I took the next term off and then jumped back in again. I’m moving slowly, but surely along (I’ll probably finish in about 5.5 years).
I’ve been able to do it because (1) supportive husband who, as an academic, understands and is able to play tag team with me (2) a very supportive advisor who had a couple of babies in grad school and (3) scheduling at least 1/3 to 1/2 FTE in sitting. As someone mentioned, it works best when I’m able to do a little bit each day. Also, I’ve been VERY clear with everyone at school that I’m around, working, and slowly plodding. I believe that has given people at school confidence that I’m worth their energy.
Finally, I think you need to try to envision this for YOUR family, but then keep in mind that anything could happen. For instance, the second term back after baby was a wash for me because my thyroid shut down and was compounded by late onset PPD. I got through, but there were times where it all seemed too much. It also meant that I needed to readjust my dissertation time line. That was disappointing, but you just do it.
Comment by Nicole — December 26, 2009 @ 7:21 pm
In regards to your question, the answer for me was to delay grad school. I really want to go, but with three kids 4 and under, one with special needs, it’s going to be a few years before I make it back. Like everyone else said, though, everyone’s situation is different. With each of my kids I received very clear revelation that I was supposed to have a kid then. They came a little sooner and definitely closer together than I would have chosen otherwise, but it’s been pretty good. I especially like that my oldest two are so close in age — the oldest has autism, and it’s been great for him to have a brother close behind him. It’s helped push him developmentally, and also given him a friend who’s mostly a peer (he has trouble making friends with his peers, even though he’s really friendly, because he doesn’t act how they expect him to).
So I guess my advice would be not only to discuss it with your husband and your advisor/s, but also to pray about it. God might have a specific time frame in mind, knowing more than either of you do about the situation.
Comment by Vada — December 26, 2009 @ 9:21 pm
I started my graduate program when my first was 3 months old and finished a month before I had baby #2. I did it entirely through part-time, evening classes. I was basically a SAHM with extensive evening obligations. But it worked really really well for me; I did all homework after bedtime and my husband was in charge when I needed to leave an hour or two before bedtime for class.
I would suggest that if you go the MLS route, you research the online programs–I know they are very attractive, but many prospective employees are VERY biased against online degrees. The universities whose hiring I know a bit about, for example, simply don’t consider candidates from online programs.
I think that for timing and number, you are best served to make these decisions with your husband and prayerfully. No one else has circumstances quite like yours.
FWIW, I don’t know your circumstances, although I sense a sincere love of learning which I can really understand. But unless you are independently wealthy, I would suggest you pick a career and take only the school you need to get there. Student loan debt is no joke (and does not accommodate maternity leave), and sometimes it is easy just to ignore it until the end, but it adds up and can easily hamper some choices your family may make in the future.
Comment by ESO — December 26, 2009 @ 9:41 pm
We had our daughter Rachel right before my wife started her CRNA program. I think, very much, it is a matter of what you feel called to, what God supports you in.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — December 26, 2009 @ 9:56 pm
Just do it.
Comment by E — December 26, 2009 @ 10:17 pm
I had my daughter when I was in undergrad and then had my son three years later when I was an air traffic controller and finishing up my undergrad. I waited to go to law school until my youngest was in first grade.
I really liked having my kids 3 years apart. Close enough for them to be buddies but far apart enough not to need a double stroller or double diaper duty.
I didn’t find school and kids that bad at all. It was a struggle being an air traffic controller with a newborn though.
I notice that you said that your first child has a genetic disorder. What are the chances that subsequent children will have that as well?
Comment by StillConfused — December 26, 2009 @ 10:18 pm
# 9.as an older member..I must disagree with you on the “procreation doctrine” you are counciled as young women to find a return missionary…get married and have children..an education is great as long as it does not interfer with your “motherly and wifely duties” education for Mormon women is a “just in case” option….the young women of today are much more determined to get educations on a “want” basis. I think it is driving the GA crazy that a lot of women are putting education ahead of starting a family..yahoo for them..”Barefoot and pregant” is a Morman tradition…
Comment by M — December 26, 2009 @ 11:04 pm
I’m glad you have such a supportive husband…that will make all the difference.
I think you’re going to have to go with your gut on this one…
Comment by britt — December 26, 2009 @ 11:47 pm
I just re-read my comment and it sounded like I was suggesting you should wait to do grad school, which isn’t what I was trying to say at all. I was just pointing out that I’d prayed about what I should do and that’s the answer I had gotten, and you and your husband should pray about what you should do and see what answer you get (which will probably not be to postpone grad school for years).
Comment by Vada — December 27, 2009 @ 1:11 am
#27–30 years ago, maybe it would have “drive[n] the GA crazy that a lot of women are putting education ahead of starting a family,” but today that is not the case. Even President Hinckley said that a woman should obtain all the education she can get. That doesn’t sound to me like he’s telling women to study Home Economics until they get married and drop out, which is, unfortunately, what some women still do. More than are putting their education ahead of starting a family, I’m sure. I think your judgment on the General Authorities is too harsh.
As for Jack, it seems to me the number one person you should look to for advice is God. I was pregnant while in school (unintentionally), and I made it through because of a supportive husband and understanding instructors. Oh, and I’m horribly stubborn. And it was BYU. I’m sure that helped. I’m waiting until I’ve had all my kids to get a Master’s (and PHD?), but that’s because I’ve got stress issues and I’m terrible at balancing anything, so unfortunately I can’t offer you any further advice on the topic
Comment by ifrit — December 27, 2009 @ 1:12 am
Balance, segmentation, managed expectations, supportive husband, reliable babysitting.
At one point during grad school I was working outside the home 20 hours a week, Young Women President (which is a fairly time consuming calling), had two small children and was pregnant with the third, and coordinating selling one house, buying another and moving across town. So life was pretty busy. I realized I really couldn’t be everything all at once, so I worked really hard to segment my days as much as possible. When I had babysitting or the kid(s) took a nap or after bedtime, I did as much schoolwork as possible. When the kids were awake or someone was sick or the family had other pressing needs, I shut off the school part of my brain (as much as possible) and did the mom thing. It didn’t always work out that cleanly, but I felt less torn-in-two when I focused on one thing at a time. Granted, a program (MBA) that would have taken two years full-time stretched into four years part-time including a couple of terms off (one to have a baby and one just because I needed a break). But I managed to (mostly) maintain my sanity.
The other mental adjustment I had to make was to consciously tone down my perfectionism. I realized that I had other commitments and demands on my time, so I really couldn’t devote as much time to that paper/project/etc. as I would like in order to polish it to absolute perfection. I still did high quality work, but I gave myself permission to turn in work that could possibly have been better if I hadn’t been up until 3:00 a.m. every night for a whole week before with a sick child.
With all that, couldn’t have done it without an incredibly supportive husband who refused to allow me to entertain thoughts of dropping out and parents who moved to town and could watch the kids.
I’m not a fan of the pop-them-out-as-fast-as-you-can school of thought, but I’ve also had many friends who had fertility issues at young ages and have tried unsuccessfully for years to have children, so I’m also not a proponent of waiting-until-everything-is-completely-done-and-tied-up-in-a-neat-bow-before-having-children school of thought. Not very helpful, but DH and I have with each of our three boys just felt the time was “right” and started trying. Follow your gut/the Spirit/conscience/however God speaks to you.
Comment by EmiG — December 27, 2009 @ 1:52 am
I have not read all the posts, but let me say this…
I received no higher education worth mentioning until I went back to school in my 30’s. My 4 children were in school and I always wanted to get my a bachelors degree.
All of us can probably agree on how hard it is to juggle children, school, home and relationships.
Only you (and your spouse) can decide how much you are willing to give to each and how to prioritize them. I now tell my own kids to go to school while they are young and their children won’t remember how you rocked them to sleep while singing the words from the textbook that has to be read by tomorrow.
I was never taught to “pop them out fast” while you are young. But in hindsight, the siblings spaced far apart have very little in common and don’t engage in activity and don’t have a bonded relationship the same as the ones a bit closer. I wish my boy and girl who are 4+ years apart were closer and could understand each other better.
You are fortunate to have a supporting husband who understands your goals and has your back.
Comment by shakti — December 27, 2009 @ 11:59 am
Although you are not LDS, I don’t think you can go wrong with what the church teaches on the matter.
“The decision of how many children to have and when to have them is a private matter for the husband and wife.”
“Husband and wife are encouraged to pray and counsel together as they plan their families. Issues to consider include the physical and mental health of the mother and father and their capacity to provide the basic necessities of life for their children.”
Comment by Left Field — December 27, 2009 @ 12:19 pm
In defense of Jack, I think we should probably admit that while official doctrine may no longer push for early marriage and lots of babies, there is still a strong cultural push in many areas to adhere to this. I know, I know… your ward/stake/branch is awesome and it isn’t like that at all. Well, your ward is awesome and not necessarily the norm. My ward is also awesome (I have a PhD, am married to a non member, and have no babies yet) and they have made it clear that they put me in the YW presidency to try and communicate the options that YW have more directly. But even outside my ward - other wards in my area and even my stake - there is a strong push for and understanding that these girls should be getting married early and having babies. And that they can wait for an education. Or that an education is important but definitely lower in priority. There was even a lesson in YW (before I was there) about how the girls need to make sure they take time to date and find a husband “before it’s too late.” ::eye roll::
Comment by that1girl — December 27, 2009 @ 12:29 pm
that 1 girl…what a great post, you are so right right, The average dating, engagement and marriage time is less than a year..”we fell in love immediately”!
#30..Hinckley stressed education “if it will benefit your family” … nothing ever about self-fulfillment”….if what you do at home doesnt fulfill all your needs, you need to pray more and talk to your Bishop( …what do you think he is going to tell you)! The 2 acceptable Mormon mommy careers..hairdresser or a teacher, oh, I forgot the latest, if you have digital cameral you can be a photographer! YW are still taught marriage and babies and to get down on their knees each night and thank God they are married to an almighty PH…Yes ..I am very cynical, because I will go to my grave knowing how sexist the church is..women are second class citizens, always have been and always will be!
Comment by M — December 27, 2009 @ 2:05 pm
Hi everyone, just wanted to note, I’m out of town until tomorrow night with not much for Internet access. I’ve only read the first few comments.
Evangelical Covenant Church is a recent change, Lorian. I was Assemblies of God before this. My pastor did her (yes, her) M.Div. at North Park.
Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers — December 27, 2009 @ 2:07 pm
EmiG, I love this.
Comment by lache — December 27, 2009 @ 3:00 pm
M, can you please provide a source for the Hinckley quote? The phrase doesn’t come up in a search of lds.org, and in fact appears only four times in the entire internet, none of them having anything to do with Mormons.
The “latest” is that you can be a photographer? What in the world are you talking about?
Comment by Left Field — December 27, 2009 @ 3:05 pm
34–I feel like there’s a difference, though, between church doctrine and church-related culture. One is religion; the other is peer pressure. That is, I suppose, the problem with personal revelation: everybody’s an expert. But, just because certain people are convinced that their opinions carry the weight of doctrine, doesn’t mean that’s what the church actually teaches.
And, 35–we did fall in love immediately! And my bishop at the time counseled me to wait, and not make any rash decisions–and, whatever happened, pursue my educational/career goals. The pressure I’ve received to be Perfect Molly Mormon instead of Molly the Lawyer Who Just Happens To Be Mormon has come from plain old run of the mill members–almost all of whom have been in the Northeast. Believe it or not, my UT friends have been much more accepting.
Comment by CJ — December 27, 2009 @ 4:01 pm
If you really want to see “have as many children as possible” go see quiverfull…they stop nursing early, or don’t nurse to get back to being able to get pregnant. instead of 12 being a big family you’d get 19+
I think as sane people continue to put their family’s first and follow their unique path, people will more clearly identify what is doctrine and what is the “what we think we interpret doctrine to be-and what we think that means about you” opinions.
Comment by britt — December 27, 2009 @ 4:32 pm
I finished (barely) my bachelors degree before my first was born. I also plan on going back for my masters “some day”. I’ve never felt like God was telling me it was time to have another baby. It’s always been something my Mister and I have chosen (though maybe God is subtle).
I’ve always thought 4 would be a good number, but each time it’s gotten harder for me to want to be pregnant. After my my second was born I was so grateful to have my body back to myself, even moreso after my third. I’d like another baby, but I’m dreading being pregnant again (and I know that sounds horrible, considering how lucky I am to be able to get pregnant in the first place).
I don’t think I could go to school at the same time, but it’s not a priority for me right now. I think we as humans are capable of amazing things when we set our minds on something we want.
Comment by Alliegator — December 27, 2009 @ 5:21 pm
I should not have put the comment in quotes..this is what I believe he has meant over the years in his insightful messages to the flock…which is what I still believe. Education is not a priority for women, give them a little speech now and then about getting all the education they can..but then make them feel guilty if they do..works most of the time..there are exceptions to everything though and I am sure there are women who will disagree and we can agree to disagree. I live in Utah…the newest means of Mormon Mommies earning money( while not taking quality away from their family)..get a digital camera, a PhotoShop program, create a website or a blog..charge a $100 sitting fee which includes a CD of your “images” #35..I am not saying people cannot fall in love immediately..nice to hear about your Bishop..good for you:) #40..”Sane people who continue put their family first” and the definition of this is what? Just curious…
Comment by M — December 27, 2009 @ 6:17 pm
I don’t know that it’s “good for me”, I didn’t do anything so I can’t take the credit. I’m actually a fairly unimaginative, mainstream Mormon who’s vaguely aware that I should have more problems than I actually do. The fact that I’ve met mostly open minded, supportive people (and church leaders) is a happy accident.
I think what Britt means (please correct me if I’m wrong, Britt) is that there’s more than one way to put your family first. Sometimes, putting your family first means, for example, deciding not to have another child. In all cases, it means honoring your (and your family members’) individual character and personality, needs and wants. True sanity comes from doing what’s right for you. No religious counsel (whether from the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or a living, breathing Prophet) is meant to be followed like a rule book (no matter what anyone says). Rather, the challenge is to take meaning out of each teaching, and apply it in a way that makes sense for you.
Comment by CJ — December 27, 2009 @ 6:26 pm
It is possible to do post-graduate work successfully while having and raising children. I was a stay at home mom with my first born and decided to go to law school when she started kindergarten. I found out I was pregnant when I was studying for the LSAT. I was sort of fine with that because I knew I wanted more children but I was also sort of freaked out because I just didn’t know if I could do law school with another baby. I decided to try anyway.
I started law school with a 5-year old and a 5-month old. How did I do it?
- Very supportive husband - he worked as well but he owned his own business and had flexible hours as a result.
- I treated law school like a job - I got to school at 7:30 a.m. studied before class, in-between classes, and after class until 4:30. I then went home to my family had dinner with them, played with the kids and didn’t touch any school work until 8:00 p.m. when the little ones went to bed. Then I studied from 8:00-10:00.
- I let some things go. By this I mean, I literally made up my mind that I was not going to be able to have a perfectly clean house all of the time. As a SAHM, I had the house very, very, VERY clean and organized. I’m one of the rare types that actually enjoys housework so the house was immaculate - probably to a fault, actually. But I knew that I could not do well at school, still be an attentive mom and wife and have a clean house all of the time. That was the hardest part for me, but I wasn’t willing to do law school half-ass and I wasn’t going to spend my evenings cleaning the house and neglect the kids need for attention and time with me.
It all worked out. It was hard, I’m not going to lie. But it was definitely worth it. And you can go on to work with three kids too, if that is what you want. I now practice law full-time and we have 5 children.
Our life is crazy, hectic but I truly enjoy it and wouldn’t change a thing.
And now we are talking about having one more as well…
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 27, 2009 @ 6:47 pm
Yes CJ..that is what I’m saying. Here is Jack talking about Dad staying home possibly. They as a family would decide that and that would definitely be putting their family first. It wouldn’t LOOK like what people think it should, but it would be how they are caring for their family. They are not reacting, or just doing what the world thinks they should…they are together with the Lord deciding how their family should function and care for each other.
sometimes that would mean not having another child
sometimes that would mean mom staying home
sometimes that would mean many children
that could mean changing our concept of education for mom, or mom getting a doctorate
Noah built an ark, Moses parted the water-the goal was to get to the promised land-the goal was not the mode of transportation.
the sanity comes in Noah not stressing that he didn’t part the waters…he did what the Lord asked him to do and it worked for him. God has a plan for our family. It may not work well for another family. Just go forward with confidence that you are doing what the Lord wants you to do.
Comment by britt — December 27, 2009 @ 6:50 pm
Re#42 “M” The link to your website doesn’t work. Your Mormon Mommie photographers comments have me curious. Can you please fix your link?
Comment by numi — December 27, 2009 @ 7:53 pm
#43.and 45..what a great response.., thank you so much for putting it so well. #42..I dont have a website….and curious as to what?
Comment by M — December 27, 2009 @ 9:02 pm
The good news, in my opinion, Jack, is that there’s no wrong decision here if you and your DH pray about it and make a decision that’s mutually agreeable.
The only substantive advice that I can give is to remember that there’s no inherent rush with education or children. Yes, there is a biological clock to be aware of; but I can also say that here we thoroughly enjoy having a child who was born to parents at the age when some LDS couples are having their first grandchildren.
Comment by Eric — December 27, 2009 @ 9:25 pm
Okay, I’ve had a bit of time to read most of the comments. Regarding the Church’s position on timing children:
When I was an undergraduate at BYU, I worked early morning custodial in one of the buildings on campus. I had a boss there who was a bit of an anti-birth-control evangelist. Every time someone on the custodial staff got engaged, he would pull the person (or the couple—we had several couples where both partners worked there) into his office and read to them several quotes from LDS leaders on how wrong birth control is; I believe they were SWK quotes. I heard him reading these quotes to couples numerous times. My husband was working there when we got engaged and, thankfully, he must have thought better than to try his routine on his spunky Protestant employee.
That’s an extreme example from my arsenal of anecdotes; for the most part, the Latter-day Saints I’ve known have minded their own when it comes to other people having children, especially the younger generation. Nevertheless, it shows that the anti-birth-control, have-as-many-children-as-possible-as-soon-as-possible hardliners are still very much alive in the LDS church. Besides, I don’t believe the LDS emphasis on early motherhood or SAHMotherhood as a priority for women has been reduced to mere “cultural” proponents. Off the top of my head I can think of two policies geared towards getting women to marry early and/or keeping women in the home: holding the minimum age for female missions up to 21 and restricting women from serving as temple workers if they have minor children at home.
Besides, what’s a non-member to think when she opens up a Church class manual published in 2003 and reads this:
So while I acknowledge that the Church has taken steps towards de-emphasizing these teachings and allowing for more freedom in this area, I’m not quite prepared to say that LDS teachings geared at having children ASAP are a thing of the past.
Anyways, thank you all for the advice. Personally I do not feel like God is calling me to have more children right now, though that could change in the next few years. We’re keeping it in mind.
Somebody asked about my daughter’s disorder and the possibility of passing it on to more children. People with VCFS have a 50% chance of passing it on to their children. I haven’t been tested for VCFS. The geneticists have recommended that I get tested for it, but I’ve had a difficult time getting our insurance to okay it. Getting tested for it before proceeding with more children is on my must-do list.
However, from what I know of the symptoms associated with it, it seems incredibly unlikely that I have it. I just mentioned my daughter’s disorder to make the point that she’s a bit more high-maintenance than most children.
Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers — December 27, 2009 @ 11:04 pm
#44 Lawyer Lady, did you have kids during Law School? I too have a Husband that is very involved but he is doing a Masters Program and would not be able to be home all day. I have a 6 month old and a 21 month old. We want more but I am trying to decide if I should wait until after the first year of school. Opinion?
Comment by cz — December 28, 2009 @ 12:22 am
Having children is a personal decision. I was looking at a blog photo of my beautiful niece and her young family, thinking, truly, I am SO glad my sister-in-law did not limit her family to the point she excluded this special girl who has grown to be a wonderful woman- this special niece would not be here, raising her own 3 children. How does that work? Would she just not exist? Or somehow, as it goes, I guess her spirit would have come to SOME family…but I am SO GLAD she is in mine. It is easy to look at how many “children” we think we want to ‘have’ or ‘raise’ or ‘put up with’ or ‘pay for’…but seeing them grow up and be PEOPLE on their OWN, making their own choices, and having wonderful families of their own…I don’t know. It makes me wonder how we all might feel at some later time of greater understanding. I come from a very small family. I don’t have a large family of my own. I don’t know how I would have done with more, if I could have had them. But I know that there are times now I do wish I had more children ( grown ones! ) I knew a girl who said she didn’t want children simply because she did not want to lose her figure. I have often wondered what became of her…I imagine she fell in love and married and had a houseful of lovely children. We do grow up and think different thoughts, sometimes.
“You came to get for yourself a mortal body that could become perfected, immortalized, and you understood that you were to act in partnership with God in providing bodies for other spirits.”
That is still a very powerful, amazing concept to me.
Comment by Melissa P. — December 28, 2009 @ 1:29 am
Whoa, Ms. Jack Meyers, you always find the most appalling quotes! This one floors me:
I think what has toned down this kind of rhetoric in recent years is the growth of the church in developing countries. I served my mission in some really poor areas, and quotes like this one would be read in RS and leave the women in tears. Imagine telling a family that not having enough money to feed another mouth is a weak excuse! My husband’s family was extremely poor, and he had a baby sister die of malnutrition. This is no joke. Advice like this can actually be extremely harmful. Obviously, most of us on FMH would likely find some way to manage–perhaps with family or church or government help–if we had another child. Not everyone is so lucky.
It is interesting to me, reading these comments, that so many people seem to have had unexpected, but not unwanted, pregnancies. Is this because the contraceptive method you were using failed? Or is it because you weren’t using contraceptives? My philosophy has always been, either you’re “trying” to get pregnant by not using contraceptives, or you’re “not trying” by using them. My sister, however, says she was “not trying” but also not using contraceptives when she got pregnant with her second child. I don’t really get that, but her thinking was that if God wanted her to have another child then, she would get pregnant, and if not, then she wouldn’t. I suppose that’s one way to make the decision. But unless there are issues of infertility, most couples who regularly have sex without contraceptives will become pregnant in a matter of months.
Comment by Sofia — December 28, 2009 @ 8:04 am
If you look at that whole quote in context it isn’t advice to have another child even if you cannot afford to not feed them…it is counsel against weak excuses..that is for the couple alone to know.
It has also NEVER been the concept for the church to have as many children as physically possible…advising people to stop nursing early to regain fertility (or just use formula) for example-which is specifically taught in some churches!
I also think it’s critical to judge our own behavior against what we think the Lord wants us to do…it’s impossible to judge others. Many people don’t feel comfortable talking about such a personal decision in front of others. I have known some women who had life threatening reasons to limit their family. When people asked them if they were going to have another baby they didn’t get into the whole serious discussion. They didn’t want to…so they would say…something. Maybe there is something going on in their marriage we don’t know about, maybe health is an issue, maybe they don’t agree as a couple, maybe they don’t know but the Lord has said “not yet”…it could be whole host of things they don’t want to discuss with random person X…or even a good friend.
I do think the more global nature of the church has changed a lot of the rhetoric. Having the decision between the couple and the Lord doesn’t limit the number of children you are having-but should help with the judgmental aspects. We are currently expecting baby number 9-every baby has only been conceived after a strong feeling that now is the time-most frequently in the temple-always to both of us independently. Sometimes that’s been weeks apart…we’ve never had a baby until both of us feel it’s time. We frequently joke when people ask us if we know what causes that, we’d love to say prayer. We have had times when we’ve felt “not yet”. I have NO expectations of other people to have 9 children. I do sometimes ask God if He’s sure he’s got the right person
.
People looking at our family and finances would not assume we should have more children. We have enough for our needs if you define needs precisely. The more I read the scriptures, the more I realize the Lord doesn’t think the same ways we do. Although we use our logic to take things to the Lord, I don’t expect His answers to be logical (or for me to understand the logic).
Comment by britt — December 28, 2009 @ 8:53 am
Bridget - first off, I realized from the school you attend that I live just down the road from you, in Evanston. Hi, neighbor!
Second, I’ll just be blunt here and say if you’re thinking of having a baby, go for it. I had my son in year 6 of my 8-year Ph.D. and it was HARD to finish that degree. I went through probably 2 years of anxiety that was so bad I really should have sought counseling. I was sleep deprived, poor, and it was a huge strain in my marriage. See, I’m totally convincing you to get pregnant! But now, when my son is three years old, I’m having a hard time getting pregnant. We conceived easily the first time, but it’s been 7 months of trying, using ovulation prediction strips as our guide, and no bun in the oven. I’m only 31, so I’m not panicking yet, but it’s made me really glad I had my son when I did. Even though it was very difficult, I wonder sometimes if he’ll be our only child, or a functional only child with a huge gap between him and a sibling (I don’t think I could go through fertility treatment, so if we don’t have another one naturally, that’s it for us).
Anyway, I don’t think fear of infertility is a good enough reason alone to get pregnant, so that’s not quite what I’m saying. But if it were me, I’d add that to the column of reasons to get pregnant.
Comment by Emily U — December 28, 2009 @ 9:35 am
Britt (#53)–I don’t think there’s any way you can read the quotes from SWK (and I did look them up and read them in context) and not come away with the message that you should not limit the number of children you have, and that the church opposed birth control. The “weak excuses” that he gives as examples include the health of the mother and the family’s ability to feed another child. Both of those are pretty strong excuses in my book, so if even those excuses aren’t acceptable, it’s pretty clear that, per SWK, you should have as many children as possible. I’m surprised and disappointed that such quotes are still included in books published in 2003. Fortunately we’re not hearing so much of that over the pulpit these days, but obviously those church members who spent years hearing such advice from their prophet still think that way and sometimes push their beliefs onto others (i.e., the BYU supervisor who counseled employees against birth control).
I did want to be clear about the example of my husband’s family. Although they did have 11 children and did not use birth control (they lived in a developing country and didn’t have access to it), they were not members of the church at the time their daughter died of malnutrition. I didn’t want to imply that following the counsel of the prophet had led to their daughter’s death, although it very well could have. Looking at the next generation of my husband’s family, it’s clear that the only things that got them out of poverty were education and birth control. By having two kids each and by studying hard, his siblings have been able to at least provide for their families. Few luxuries, but in general enough to put a roof over their heads and food on the table. All of them are strongly LDS, but somehow they decided not to follow advice of the type Bridget Jack Meyers quoted, and I think every one of them would tell you it was a very good decision.
Britt, I’m glad you are able to have a big family and that it’s the right decision for you. I’m glad you felt you were able to make the decision together with your husband and God and that you weren’t pressured into it by anyone else. But it’s pretty hard to deny that the church in the past did pressure couples to have many children, regardless of their health, finances, education, military service, or other “excuses.”
Comment by Sofia — December 28, 2009 @ 10:58 am
Ms. Jack Meyers, I just visited your blog and realized you go by Jack, not Bridget. Sorry about that…
Comment by Emily U — December 28, 2009 @ 12:21 pm
Jack, one big factor to consider is your special needs kid. What to the therapists/doctors say about your dillema? How do kids like yours respond to younger sibling, and is it easier when there’s more or fewer years between the children? Ask the experts.
With my own autistic son, I’d probably want children that were closer to him in age, since it would be harder for him to bond with anyone if he had no sibilings until later in life. But that’s my particular experience with my son’s autism, and I have no idea how things are with your child’s particular disability.
Comment by Christian — December 28, 2009 @ 1:15 pm
Jack–
I’m kind of surprised at your #49. It makes it sound like you really weren’t looking for advice, just a reason to pull out a quote that might cause some people some real discomfort.
Can you find quotes from people who became prophets from the 60s, 70s, and 80s that sound dated now? Sure. You could even find quotes from some Mormons that are alive right now that sound cooky. Of course, the same can be said for any religion. Would you like us to go dig up some quotes from Protestant or Evangelicals that we find questionable or anti-woman? Do you doubt there are some to be found? Absolutely not.
They fact is, the vast majority of commentors before your #49 pretty much gave identical advice: pray about it and do what is right for your family. Perhaps that is too benign for you, but that is the way most Mormons live their lives.
Sure, I could point to Mormon families that I felt had more children than they could handle, or too close together for comfort (I’m super-judgmental like that; it is a personal failing, not part of my religion). Maybe there are some families some may feel could have handled more kids, but the fact is, we have no idea what their family dynamics are. I know that is not fun or inflammatory, but that’s about par for the course. Not many Quiverfull families around here.
BTW–you can delete the “women can’t be temple workers while minors are at home” from your catalogue of Mormon wrongs against women; men with minors at home can’t be temple workers either.
Comment by ESO — December 28, 2009 @ 1:24 pm
Britt and ESO: Jack didn’t simply dig up these quotations from a dark, dusty, forgotten pile of old conference talks. She quoted the SWK material from a current manual meant to prepare couples for marriage. In this case, it doesn’t really matter that the words were originally spoken many decades ago–his words are being used as doctrine today. And as most of us know, the lessons in our current manuals are typically nothing more than a string of decontextualized quotations anyway. What matters is that these words are still used, alongside rhetorically “softer” quotations to teach couples how to think about marriage. Ugh.
Jack, good luck whatever you decide. I’m usually just a lurker here, but I do want to say that I’ve appreciated your precise thinking and writing on this site.
Comment by Sonnet — December 28, 2009 @ 2:00 pm
ESO, a man in my ward was just called to be a temple worker. He has a 4 year old, a 3 year old, a 22 month old and a 5 month old.
Comment by anon — December 28, 2009 @ 2:00 pm
anon–the man in your ward sounds very busy. In my temple district, the policy is that PARENTS (regardless of gender) of minor children may not be temple workers. It is my understanding that the policy is widespread in the US. If your anonymous temple district and your anonymous ward play by their own rules, that is their thing, but certainly not policy.
I am not a big fan of the policy; I find it overly paternalistic, but I am glad it is for mothers AND fathers.
Of course, men and women can still attend the temple, act as temple coordinator in their wards, and volunteer for temple cleaning assignments, etc.
Sonnet–I see no reason why the relative obscurity or popularity of any given quote makes any difference. I have been in the church my whole life and never been counseled to have more kids than I wanted or earlier than I wanted them. People need to distinguish between well-meaning advice (doesn’t apply to me) and the actual Gospel covenants.
(Basically, what I am saying is that if someone went against their better-judgment to live their lives like their bishop or custodial work supervisor wants them to, that is a personal problem; I don’t roll like that).
Comment by ESO — December 28, 2009 @ 2:31 pm
Also, men serving in bishoprics, stake presidencies and district presidencies may not serve as temple ordinance workers within the US and Canada.
Comment by ESO — December 28, 2009 @ 2:41 pm
ESO-I think that must be a temple or area specific decision. My father worked in the temple for several years before my youngest brother left on his mission and my mom was able to join him.
My opinions on quotes like the one(s) from SWK is that they’re a product of the time and culture in which they were written. Prophets always come with their own opinions, so just because they say something, doesn’t mean I have to follow it. It’s my job to find out for myself whether something the prophet says applies in my life. Unfortunately too often, we teach young people to skip the finding out for themselves part.
Comment by Alliegator — December 28, 2009 @ 2:59 pm
#57 ESO ~ I am so sorry that I gave off the impression that I just wanted to toss out uncomfortable quotes and wasn’t really interested in advice on this topic. That was not my intention in the slightest. I do have a tendency towards combativeness and that could be why I focused on the birth control / career issue in my limited time last night. Please forgive me.
As Sonnet pointed out, I didn’t just bust out any old quote. I’m always willing to let past teachings be past teachings; I have defended Latter-day Saints from critics who want to stick them with old and largely abandoned teachings many times. However, when the LDS Church is still using these quotes in its current official teaching manuals–updated and revised a mere six years ago–then I think it’s a bit unfair for people to imply these are just old teachings from the past that no one cares about anymore. Obviously someone higher up cared about it enough to think it should still be taught in Church classes today.
If you find the National Association of Evangelicals or the Evangelical Covenant Church using quotes on women from the 70s in their current teaching manuals and want to use that as an indicator of one strain of thought that is currently alive in evangelical Christianity, be my guest. Personally, I don’t think you would even have to go to the 70s to find appalling quotes on women who work outside the home and birth control from evangelical Christian leaders. I’ve seen plenty of garbage from the 2000s. (And since you’re aware of the Quiverfull movement, I guess you know that, too; but I’ve seen junk that was more mainstream than them.)
The 2006 CHI does not say that men with minor children living at home are not allowed to be temple workers; I’m friends with two male temple workers with minor children (one in Washington state and one in Provo, Utah) and one female temple worker who was released from her calling when her first child was born. I believe it’s on p. 89 (give or take a page). If your local leaders do it differently then I suspect they’re the exception, not the rule.
BTW, concerning your #23, thanks for the tip on researching how well the online MLS degrees work for the job-hunt. My old employer in BYU’s L. Tom Perry Special Collections had given me the name of several online programs which he said were “excellent,” but I will check to make sure they lead to viable careers after graduation if I go that route.
@ the topic ~ Okay, now that I have more time to comment…
- I really appreciate the observation (#1 Kevin Barney) that TEDS is a nurturing environment that will probably try to accommodate a pregnancy and I should take that into account. I’ll keep it in mind.
- I appreciate everyone’s stories of how they have balanced the two out, including perspectives on having children at a later age. I also appreciate the people who have shared that they weren’t able to make it work. Having already failed at this balance once, that is a real concern for me. I’m pretty sure that if I drop out of graduate school again, I’m never getting another chance.
- I feel a few pangs at stories of family pitching in to help out. As most people know, my mother passed away in September of last year and we were very close. She was pretty much the only person in my family who wanted to take care of my daughter often. In August I was living in Washington state near my widowed father, three brothers, a sister, and my aunt & uncle & three cousins. It was pretty difficult to get any of them to watch my daughter for me. I visited my father once a week and most of the others I only saw once every 2-3 months or so. Bottom line, I don’t think that help from family is going to be an option for us, not since my mother passed away.
- #56 Emily, I will get back to you in e-mail.
Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers — December 28, 2009 @ 3:34 pm
My choice has been to build the family now and do my career later. Our kids were born in 1999, 2001, 2004 and 2006. I’m 35 and barely have the energy to keep up … and I didn’t even birth ‘em. I don’t know how people do this in their 40s. I’ll start grad school when my youngest is in kinder or 1st grade.
By the way if you truly don’t want to do pregnancy and childbirth again, choosing adoption is a perfectly legitimate way to add children to your family. I’m not saying it’s an easier way - it’s very, very hard in my experience. It’s just an alternative I wish more people considered.
Comment by Ana — December 28, 2009 @ 3:40 pm
Hi cz, #50,
No, I did not have any children during law school, so I guess I can not fairly speak to that. On the actual baby front, all other fators being equal, I don’t think having a newborn during the first year (as I did) would be any easier than having a newborn during the second or third year. Actually, it is more likely that having a newborn in the first year is a bit harder just because first year of law school seems to be universally the hardest on law school students than the subsequent years.
However, I, like Jack, do not enjoy being pregnant. I have spherocytosis, a blood disorder that makes me especially tired and fatigued, so I pesonally would not choose to be pregnant during law school, though it may very well have been possible. My SIL loves being pregnant and says she feels great when she is, so if you’re that type of person, you may be just fine going through a pregnancy while in law school.
I do have to add also, that my first two children (the ones I was raising during law school) were basically happy, healthy, well-adjusted children. Had either or both of them had special needs, I do not know if it would have been feasible for me to have finished law school successfully.
Comment by Lawyer Lady — December 28, 2009 @ 5:20 pm
Jack said , The “weak excuses” that he ( SWK) gives as examples include the health of the mother and the family’s ability to feed another child. Ms. Jack’s interpretation of SWK’s words ‘the wife is not robust” seems to be the same, in her opinion as ” the health of the mother.”
BUT , the handbook always said the HEALTH OF THE MOTHER SHOULD be a consideration.
Those are of two different things. Me saying,” I am not sure I am the kind of lady up to dealing with a bunch of kids. I throw up too much when I am pregnant. Kids get on my last nerve, I get tired, need more sleep, and catch a lot of colds, and would never want to help with Cubscouts because I really don’t like going outside. ” is me saying I am not robust. Maybe I would just need to get some better mom skills, take better care of myself physically, and get some better routines going in my life. ( all of that would have pretty much been true of me….)
Me saying “my uterous ruptured with my last baby, so my health and life would be seriously threatened should I attempt another pregnancy.” is easily recognized as a concern for the health of the mother, but certainly would not qualify as the only legitimate concern for a mother’s health.
I believe mental health and emotional health and physical health of all the members of the family need to be considered. Finances should be considered, but given proper focus. ( Many of us have had children in the years of our poverty, I would think. )
Really, maybe MOST people know when their excuses are excuses, but others do not. Some feel they must provide for every want of their children, others make big distinctions between wants and needs. Some people truly know how to make the budget stretch to cover yet another mouth to feed. Some know how to mend clothes and clean stains so the clothes can be passed down , while others toss them and feel their children do not have enough clothes. Some buy steak and fret about the food budget while others learn to cook with cheaper forms of complete protein, like beans and rice, and do so on a regular basis, and know how to make a meal stretch to its limits.
Some feel state colleges are fine, and that their kids can do a lot to save and work their own way through, and others think they need a different or higher quality of education for their kids and that they are obligated to provide all funding up to several degrees. To some, none of this is important in expanding their family size.
Which brings me back to this: It is up to the individual, and hopefully they are seeking for revelation in this oh, so important matter! It is a really important thing to consider carefully, and important to think of what IS important. We will be accountable for our choices, whatever they are.
Sofia..#55 Thanks for the clarification. I needed that!
“I did want to be clear about the example of my husband’s family. Although they did have 11 children and did not use birth control (they lived in a developing country and didn’t have access to it), they were not members of the church at the time their daughter died of malnutrition. I didn’t want to imply that following the counsel of the prophet had led to their daughter’s death, although it very well could have.”
You bring us back to reality, and thankyou for it. We are a worldwide church. In any circumstance the church is concerned about the welfare of women and children and certainly that there is sufficient nutrition. Our church does much to help with all areas of need on a regular basis throughout the world, and can do more if we up our donations to the humanitarian funds. It is heartbreaking to have children starving. I love the Perpetual Education fund, which also shows we care about quality of life, career development, and life skills. I also like that our sisters in other countries have much to teach us about pure faith and joy in their families. If we had what many of them do in the way of stuff, education, or opportunity, many of us would be doing much complaining and moping.
We each have to weigh out our own circumstance. We may all know families who could and maybe even should have had more children if it were up to us to know those things. Thank goodness it isn’t! We all may also know families who we think should have STOPPED having kids for whatever our reasons are. Again, thankfully our opinions in that direction do not count!
I know mothers who have great concern for current finances, who have had more children. They realize that current finances are usually temporary circumstances, and do not want to base such a big decision on such temporary things.
I know mothers of large families with great joy and some with great sorrow. I know people who procrastinated having children, and when they were ready to do so- struggled with accomplishing that goal.
I always thought I could easily have babies, because earlier it seemed that way, and found that later to be untrue.
We really can’t judge others circumstances.
Comment by Melissa P. — December 28, 2009 @ 6:01 pm
#66 Melissa P. ~ Jack said , The “weak excuses” that he
It was Sofia in #55 who said that. I haven’t offered any further commentary on SWK’s statement.
Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers — December 28, 2009 @ 6:04 pm
I was surprised to find you have really already made this decision.
Children have always been encouraged…our understanding of premortal life adds an interesting dimension to that.
IMO the gift to procreate is not something we get control over when we get married…it is something we are able to take part in…the reigns are never fully handed over-the Lord is always meant to be a part of the decision. It is creating life, creating bodies for God’s spirit children. That is powerful.
I hang out with homeschooling families…many of which are large. I don’t know of a single case when they have not made their decisions prayerfully. It has not always looked like they are perfect parents with their chidlren perfectly spaced, and mom and dad earning money hand over fist. In some cases it has. judge how you may.
You may judge the words said, but it is disengenuous to assume people take them the way you think they do, or the way the idiot you heard speak once does. Or even the way many people talk about it casually.
When to have a child is a very personal decision. Perhaps we need to get better about how we speak about it, but I have found countless situations in which the parents are making a deep personal decision, but make some flippant answer, because they don’t want to go into their personal decision.
Maybe it’s none of our business.
Every single person on this thread replied…pray, talk it out decide for yourselves, or given a personal annecdote to explain how they dealt with a similar situation. It’s not that none of us had read the SWK quote or others like it, it’s just that we pray and figure out how that applies to our lives.
Comment by britt — December 28, 2009 @ 6:14 pm
#68 britt ~ I’m really at a loss as to what it is I said that rubbed you wrong.
Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers — December 28, 2009 @ 6:45 pm
Revelation is great stuff.But I think we have to take responsibility for our own decisions,otherwise when the going gets tough it can be tempting to blame God.
Our situation.Two kids close together.Result:permanently compromised health.Eleven years later we decide that we need to exercise trust in God,and proceed with pregnancy 3. Pregnancy so bad that I was unable to mother my older children,embarking on adolescence.Dreadful set of circumstances further complicated by my middle child becoming ill shortly after the birth of our lovely child 3,and she has never recovered.I was studying post grad and working in the midst of all this,and have had to abandon further ambitions due to my own illness and the illness of child 3.
My point is that stuff happens,unpredictable,uncontrollable stuff.Perhaps adequate finances can protect us against some of this-I wouldn’t know.But we made these decisions.Our eyes were watching God,but we weren’t naive.If we had done these things only to please God,then we would have been(even more)bitter and twisted.Fact is,we had our beautiful children because we wanted them,and we continue to do so.I’m so glad though that we had no more children in these circumstances,because frankly they would have finished up out of our care because there is only so much that flesh and blood can actually do.
So,BJM,be honest about what you want,and expect life to come your way.There is no right here,only living with your choices.
Comment by wayfarer — December 28, 2009 @ 6:57 pm
I apologize Mrs. Jack, #68, you are right, and that was sloppy of me. Thankyou for being gentle with me.
#71-Wayfarer, you make another good point. When we anticipate having another child, we most often see the view of the future as optimistically as possible given present circumstance, but truly, we do not know what the curves in the road will bring on any front. We all know there are possibilities that can come up and blindside all our preferred plans, as we saw them in our mind’s eye. It is , indeed, a partnership, and we need to feel confident in our part of the decision, so we aren’t left blaming God. In most cases, children will grow to adulthood, and be blessings in the family. Most of the hard parts of producing, raising, providing for, and affording them will settle into the background of family life. But us mom’s do remember what it took, and what it took out of us. Like no one else. ( I certainly never gave much attention to what my own mother went through for us, until I was a mom making some sacrifices in a similar way. )
Comment by Melissa P. — December 28, 2009 @ 7:40 pm
Jack–I do appreciate your #64; no one should be judged by a single blog comment.
I realize that this particular SWK quote is not any old quote. To say, though, that a people are expected to live according to the dictates of the Institute manual is a bit much, really. It would be nice if we could adhere as well to the biblical Gospel of Christ as some seem to think we hold to advice, even that which comes from prophets.
Frankly speaking, I am somewhat frustrated at the current counsel that is so often ignored. I cannot recall a General Conference or YW or RS General broadcast within my memory (imperfect, albeit) in which women have not been advised to get as much education as they can. Do the Mormon women I know sign up for classes at their local community colleges, universities, trade schools, or on-line by droves? Hardly. I am sure many feel that whatever level of education they have already attained is “as much as they can.” I wish they acted more on THIS advice.
Comment by ESO — December 28, 2009 @ 8:14 pm
Melissa P (#67): Yes, it was me who interpreted the word “robust” to refer to the mother’s health. My dictionary defines “robust” as “strong and healthy; suited to or requiring bodily strength or endurance.” I don’t think it’s a stretch to interpret “the mother is not robust” to mean “the mother feels she is not healthy enough or strong enough to bear a child.” I just have a real problem with a man–any man–trying to decide for a woman whether she is able–emotionally, physically, financially, spiritually–to go through pregnancy, childbirth, and raising of a child. I also have a problem with people making women feel guilty for not having a child. And that’s exactly what this talk does–makes women (and couples) feel guilty if they don’t feel able to have a child. And yes, Church humanitarian programs are great and help a lot of people. But it seems irresponsible to me to have children you cannot afford, expecting the church, government, or your family to help pay for them. Here in the US, I know a few young LDS couples who have had several children very young and gone on welfare. I can’t judge the circumstances (whether they purposely got pregnant, whether they had an unanticipated financial crisis, or whatever). I’m just saying that counsel such as SWK’s can easily be interpreted to mean, “No excuse is acceptable to the Lord. Whether we can afford it or not, whether I am physically able to stand it or not, we have to have as many children as possible.”
Comment by Sofia — December 28, 2009 @ 8:28 pm
I think it was Spencer W. Kimball’s wife Camilla that continued to take college classes for many years throughout her life. I am sure they were of the enriching, learning type, likely not for a career, but I remember thinking I would like to emulate that, which technically I have not done. But I have continued to read and study, attend certain conventions and conferences, and have used my degree in many ways. We have many women in our ward who have gotten more education through the years, some while their children were younger, some as empty-nesters. We aren’t done yet! The expectation in our area is always college, although I have had to remind some that it is not necessarily for everyone, that some need a trade or skill and that all honest work is good, and that the goal is self-reliance and being able to take care of ourselves and our families, and be able to live within our means.
I have heard many women state that their long involvement in Relief Society was an amazing education. Back in the day, they had a curriculum that offered much more in learning in the areas of social relations ( psychology, emotional development, problem solving, career development, decision making, ect ), mother education ( early childhood education PLUS psychology PLUS PLUS PLUS) , cultural refinement ( geography, music education, art appreciation, political science, drama, world literature, writing, poetry, ect ) and spiritual living. Homemaking meetings rounded out the offerings with the practical things and homemaking skills, as well as any talent anyone wanted or could be convinced to share, and all of the above! I think there will continue to be shifts as the church grows worldwide…toward simplifying and local decision making. Even the yearly Family Home Evening manuals were chock full of practical learning. Most of you missed most of what I am talking about. That makes me old!
Our church has always been big on education and a good work ethic. The church I grew up in just didn’t get into the whole of life the way the LDS church has. The focus was purely spiritual, while our church realizes that everything has its spiritual aspect, and that all learning and knowledge can lead to wisdom and understanding of both daily and eternal things. I have always felt our church wanted us to get as much education as possible, but that doesn’t just mean what we learn in accredited colleges and universities. I got the impression we were to be always learning, however, and wherever we can, and then use it to become more fulfilled as women, to serve and teach in our families, and churches and communities, and of course, to provide for our families as needed.
Comment by Melissa P. — December 28, 2009 @ 8:54 pm
Just an FYI as I start, I haven’t read all of the comments, so forgive me if I ask or say anything that has been mentioned.
You have some interesting parallels in your history to our family’s. My husband’s sister has the exact same chromosomal deletion as your daughter (22q11). I am not sure how severe your daughter’s symptoms are (SIL’s were extremely severe), but I am sure that child-rearing of a high-needs child has to be more than challenging.
We are the parents of one child, born in Jan 2007, when I was 28. He was born while I was in my first year of my post-doc. As a post-doc, my work and commitments were nearly identical or more so to what they were when I was an PhD student. I had signed a 2-year NIH contract that absolutely required my completion of the program, or I would have to pay back 2 years’ salary (got to love government programs). When DS was born, I had just finished 6 months of the 2 years, so I was still committed to another 1.5 years at his birth. At the time, my husband was (and still is) a full-time grad/med student. My program, however, (engineering) was in an entirely different field from the one you are pursuing. My point in all this is just to say I feel qualified to answer your questions.
My pregnancy was fairly uncomplicated, but labor, delivery, and the post-partum period were challenging. Our son was healthy, but due to a complicated labor was in the NICU for a week after his birth. In addition, the first year of parenting was unbelievably difficult for me. I won’t go into all the details, but it was a real struggle on me emotionally and physically and (therefore) also on my ever-patient and ever-egalitarian husband. In addition, my son was very physically and emotionally demanding. I know that some mothers have babies that sleep in car seats or sleep at all for that matter; ours is 3 years old now and he still isn’t sleeping through the night.
It took us a while to find good child-care - we have him in a great Assembly of God daycare near our home - but things are fantastic now. However, if I could do it all over again, I would have waited until after I was done my post-doc before having my first child. We are opting to wait until DH is past his first year of residency before we plan on more children (I will be about 34). Although I realize that we may encounter problems, the first time was just too much for me to fathom doing otherwise.
You seem like a very strong, capable woman, and I am sure you know your own limits. You also sound like you have a great husband who will help and support you through any subsequent pregnancy. I would say that I don’t think schooling alone should hold any woman back from having children. However, if you know of reasons (physical, emotional, spiritual, financial, etc) for why it would be difficult to have a baby during that time, you should definitely given them due consideration, carefully weighing the pros and cons for your family. Ultimately, only you know yourself and your limits.
Comment by Madame Curie — December 28, 2009 @ 9:00 pm
Oh, and re: #64 with family helping out - I had no family to help me out when my son was born. My mom had passed away about 1 year previous, and my family are not baby-lovers (my dad and sisters are “children are to be seen and not heard” sort of people).
Comment by Madame Curie — December 28, 2009 @ 9:37 pm
Ms. Jack…only my first sentence was directed to you..sorry for the confusion. I don’t see how the rest was an attack-or intended for you, but sorry if it came off that way. It was meant as clarification.
Comment by britt — December 28, 2009 @ 9:53 pm
#66 Lawyer Lady, Thanks my kids are really easy. I am in the application process but not feeling too hopeful. I actually have a back fusion which makes being pregnant very difficult. So I am being very careful at the moment. I kinda have dream kids at the moment but I could have a difficult child which would be just as wonderful but in a different way.
Thanks for the advice.
Comment by CZ — December 28, 2009 @ 9:55 pm
#74 Sofia. I hear you. I agree with your post…except the last statement ‘I’m just saying that counsel such as SWK’s can easily be interpreted to mean, “No excuse is acceptable to the Lord. Whether we can afford it or not, whether I am physically able to stand it or not, we have to have as many children as possible.” Then again, you did say CAN BE INTERPRETED TO MEAN, not that it must be, or is always. So yes. I hear you. I see the Lord as lovingly and kindly caring deeply about each individual situation, not as someone that would say “NO EXCUSE IS ACCEPTABLE TO ME EVER !”
I never felt any man, including the prophet or my husband or bishop was making any of those decisions for me. Not at all. I assumed that ultimately what I thought was what mattered the most. And I appreciate the counsel of prophets on these topics. I never felt that those things were meant to be guilt producing, but I do see that they ARE sometimes just that , for some women.
Some women I have known FEEL guilty, for whatever reason, and for no reason at all. There are a few women that just tend to feel guilty pretty much all the time. I try to help them get over that, as it really is not a healthy mindset. It really keeps them from joy. When we read the counsel and then counsel together in our marriages, and in our prayers, then our answers and our own good sense are enough. ( most of the time….)
In some ways perhaps people limiting their children is also sometimes because of pride and selfishness. If that is the case, they are allowed that. No one is ever forced to have children, though they may feel pressure to do so. Parents and grandparents and friends may say things. As a people who understand eternal families, we do still have a purpose to bring children into mortality, but ultimately the decision on when and if and how rests on our shoulders, and I believe the individual woman’s desire should be, and I hope, is the deciding factor.
I really hope women are not having children without wanting them, and feeling prepared and able to have them. ( Although, I am not sure most of us would ever feel TOTALLY prepared that first time. I just figured and had faith that it would work out. ) The church will not likely ever counsel us directly as individual couples in how to proceed to have children, and they also will not contradict “‘Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth.’ You know there are so many in the world who have and do restrict the birth of children and population growth. At the time President Kimball was speaking, there was much to-do about “zero population growth.” I would not doubt that he was inspired to carefully and specifically refute some of the political and social rhetoric of the day.
I also understand what you mean about some who have children and seem to not have taken any measures or preparation in order to support them, seemingly expecting others to do that for them. I struggle and am VERY frustrated by those cases. Trust me. Because that also does not seem to be the will of the Lord. We are to work and prepare and provide for our own.
These are hard times now, though. I imagine there are many wondering how to proceed with their family planning in light of unemployment, debt, and other tragic and trying situations some find themselves in today. Complicated. Conflicting. Confusing.
Comment by Melissa P. — December 28, 2009 @ 9:58 pm
My husband and I–both from rural Utah–married in the 70s when I was 19 and he was 23. We decided to get pregnant right away, probably mostly because of cultural expectations. Our first baby was easy, bright, happy, funny, and a joy beyond anything I ever imagined. I was in love and infatuated with him and with my role as mom. We ended up with five kids. I desperately wanted and longed for every baby before they came, and loved them in the same infatuated way after they were here.
But I also desperately longed to finish my education. I had three babies during my undergrad work (took 6 years), another at the end of the MS (4 years), and our last in the middle of my PhD (8 years). My husband was also finishing his education during that time, and was incredibly supportive in sharing the child care and home responsibilities.
Now our older kids are having children and I can’t comprehend how we did it. Looking back, I think the stress and pressure cost us. It was very difficult. Considering everything, and knowing what I know now, I would stop with a masters degree–but at the time there was no licensure in the state for a masters level practitioner, and I had spousal tuition benefits at my husband’s university, and it seemed like the best option to continue.
But I see the time and emotional investment our grandkids require, and I can’t even imagine telling our kids to do what we did. Our children are finishing more of their education earlier and will have fewer children than we did, and that’s OK.
As (nearly) everyone has said, it’s up to the people involved. For me it was a balancing act between the two great desires of my life–children and education–and I’m not sure I always handled it well. To tell you the truth, I didn’t pray about my decision for babies OR for schooling. I figured it was up to me–I wanted what I wanted!–and no doubt I would have blamed God for how difficult it was if I thought he had told me to do it.
Now, as I work in a profession I love and tend grandbabies whenever I can, I’m happy with our choices. But it was a long hard road getting here.
Comment by Karla — December 28, 2009 @ 10:37 pm
I am usually a lurker in these parts but could not resist this discussion. I am 28, married, LDS, and have no children, and we definitely have “weak” excuses for having no children (at least according to the SWK quote mentioned above). The reasons for not having children I will not get into, as it is not relevant to this particular discussion. Suffice it to say that they are not health or financial reasons.
Doctrinally, I am glad some of you have not experienced the pressure/teaching to have children early, or frequently in your LDS-religious lives. But it is there, and it does still get taught to young people today. I was told and taught directly, as a student at a church sponsored school that there was no good reason to delay having children after marriage, outside of serious health risks to the mother.
Socially, I am also glad that some of you live in areas where other LDS members are open and loving to non-typical Mormon lifestyles. We do not (and we do not live in the west). We have been very much left out and ignored due to our childlessness (not only in our ward, but in our families as well). We have even been told when attempting to socialize with other ward couples, that we should spend time with those other “couples without kids” rather than with the other families.
I know our experience doesn’t happen to everyone, but there are real ramifications for not having kids at a young age in our religion (whether due to doctrine or social expectations), and it DOES get taught to young people that they should have kids quickly and often.
Comment by Social Worker — December 28, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
Hey, Social Worker, are you in Amherst, NY?
Comment by Markie — December 28, 2009 @ 11:47 pm
Karla, I think it is amazing what you accomplished! What determination! I am with you, I don’t give advice to my older kids about their choices, unless they specifically ask. And then I pretty much say, um, well…you just have to figure it out through study and prayer and use your common sense. I can tell them what I felt about what we did. That is about it.
And Social Worker…you are still young in my book. The trend is to marry later and have kids later, even in the church, or so it seems to me. I guess being a convert worked in my favor…I didn’t have anyone on my side pressuring me. To the contrary, I got a few rude remarks to the opposite effect! What? Pregnant AGAIN?! I also didn’t have my growing up years being taught anything about this area of my life.
On his LDS side, I think they knew I had a mind of my own. I took any advice as sort of just kidding on their part, or just wrote it off to their quirkiness. I don’t deny that there is a certain expectation, or that we were taught multiply. We definitely were. But I figured it was still up to us to actually do the math!
I am sad to hear about the socializing advice you were given. That seems really just weird to me. However, we did socialize best probably with people in our same ‘category’, I suppose. Married with kids, so we could each go regularly and our various kids could trash each of our houses in turn. Pull out every toy, and play till they were exhausted, then leave the host with a big mess. Oh, wait, we did attempt to put things back in order, now that I think of it. Most of the time. As couples we probably did mostly hang with couples in similar situations, but one on one, I have tended to have friends from a wide range of circumstance. I think visiting teaching helps with making friends that way. I used to go play games with older widows at night after my kids were in bed, or sometimes before, and let DH handle the bedtime routine.
We enjoyed it when older families were willing to invite us over
and would get some good advice now and again.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I want to be understanding of sisters in every circumstance.
Comment by Melissa P. — December 29, 2009 @ 12:01 am
From one chronic over achiever to another, I say take the time to enjoy your newborn baby while not having so much pressure/stress on you at one time. I cannot imagine doing both at once, I did each seperately. You would be taking on a lot tp say the least. Could you wear both hats and still meet your high standards? My answer to that question was decidedly no in a similiar circumstance and since I am no ‘half-asser’ I put some career ambitions on the back burner for awhile. For me it was, and is, the right decision, for you… perhaps not. Babies are only babies once and it goes by so fast. Grad school will still be there for you in the future if it doesn’t happen right now, there are no guaranties that our fertility will cooperate with our life plans. I was once told by a very wise woman, “You can have it all, but maybe not all at the same time.” I’ve always thought that was very sound advice. Good-luck with a tough decision!
Comment by Travelin' Pants — December 29, 2009 @ 2:29 am
Jack, I’d just like to emphasize some points already made. Please forgive my redundancy.
The whole illusion of control is just that, an illusion. Fertility, career paths, marriages, health, etc. may change dramatically at any time. I don’t think that there is necessarily only one perfect answer if you are trying to live your life applying the principle of faith.
There are so many aspects that may be beyond your control that you could easily drive yourself bonkers imagining you can control them. For example, cost, location, advisor, actual content of courses, colleagues, etc. all play into whether a program meets your hopes and expectations and are often unknowable until you’ve already taken the plunge.
Fwiw, my first son was born in the third year of my PhD program and the third year of my husband’s medical school education. I was pregnant with my second while studying for my exams and we moved across the country for my husband’s residency. I could not/did not make it work for me because I was unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary (I’ve always been a bit partial to my sanity). Things may have been different had my husband’s work been more flexible. However, I OWN my decision. No one forced me to make it.
So, I guess that’s my advice. Once you and your husband discuss it and pray about it and feel at peace with your decision, own it. Don’t let Mormons or Evangelicals or anyone make you feel badly for not conforming to their expectations (not that you would; you don’t seem the type). And don’t fall into the trap that a degree, any kind of degree, is a magical pass that suddenly makes you good enough, smart enough, because doggone it, people are going to like/not like you and quite often hire you/not hire you for reasons that are frequently not degree related.
Comment by Lupita — December 29, 2009 @ 2:50 pm
jack, thank you for bringing up this debate as it is constantly on my mind. I am in the 4th year going on 5th year of my PhD program, I had my first baby during my second year and it worked out okay but when I got pregnant during my 4th year, all hell broke loose. I have decided to continue even though it really would make life a lot easier to quit school. But because I am in the middle of my dissertation phase, it really isn’t feasible to wait a few years and then continue. By then, all my data would be old and irrelevant. Anyways, I think you have a touch decision a head of you but like some of the commenters said, there is no wrong answer. I think the key is to embrace whatever you decided whole heartedly. For me, the constant back and forth was giving me more stress then just suck it up and doing it
Good luck!
Comment by littlebetafish — January 1, 2010 @ 8:19 pm
Don’t know if this’ll help or not, but I felt like I should chime in with:
My sister got her Doctorate in Mechanical Engineering from BYU a while back. She didn’t even get married until that was done with, and only eight months ago had her first born. I think she’s 32 or 33 or something now.
In other words, you have a bit of time to make up your mind on how long to wait.
Comment by D.C. — January 6, 2010 @ 8:37 am