Do as I Say and Not as I Do

By: Stephanie - February 1, 2010

Ahhh… made a comment (#544) on the Women are Inferior thread that I didn’t want to slip through the cracks, particularly this paragraph:

I think young LDS boys try to make sense of why women can’t hold the priesthood or are excluded from some leadership roles, for instance . . . and they are usually left to their own limited understanding to formulate a reason. Perhaps they hear better reasons later . . . but the first one they probably come up with (and that I’ve heard from a lot of LDS preteen boys) is . . . that men have more power in the church because men are better than women.

I was thinking about that and decided to conduct my own unscientific poll. I have four young preteen LDS sons, so I asked them a series of questions:

What is the Priesthood? (the authority of God)
Who has the Priesthood? (boys)
Why do boys have the Priesthood? (they have the authority)
So why do boys have the authority and not girls?

That’s when my 9 year old got a glean in his eye and said, “I guess [girls] just aren’t good enough”.

Wow. Ahhh… was right. In my house. With a closeted feminist for a mother and parents who actually have very egalitarian beliefs and lived a very egalitarian lifestyle before these kids showed up.

But Ahhh… is right about something else, too. My kids have been left to their own understanding to form reasons. I still don’t have the answer to this question. I’ve moved from bawling for hours after leaving the temple to putting a few things on the back shelf in peace that I will find answers later, but I have never talked about any of my questions or theories or feelings with my children. Part of it is that I don’t want to “poison” them or color their perception of the gospel or doctrine with my own questions. We read the scriptures a lot in our home. We are well-versed in the scriptures and standards. We share our testimonies with one another. But we never really talk about women’s issues.

Part of that has been that they are all boys. They are young. They have a lot of their own concerns to worry about. I haven’t wanted to burden them with things outside of homework, friends, chores, being safe, growing up in general. I figure that we lay the foundation of what we know, and then they can form their own opinions about it as they grow.

But, after today, I am wondering about that approach.

Back to my story . . . I didn’t throw anything at my son. I could tell because of the glean in his eye that he was half-kidding, half wondering if he was right. So I asked more questions:

Do you really think that boys are better than girls? (no)
Then why do you think that boys have the priesthood and girls don’t?

From 9 year old: Well, all the apostles are men.
From 5 year old: Jesus is a man
From 7 year old: Because that’s just the way God created us.

I never did get a chance to finish that conversation because we had dinner to clean up, birthday cake to bake, baths to take (dad was gone by then to a fireside, of course), and I forgot. But, earlier in the day, we had had another interesting conversation:

One of my boys asked if Jesus had a wife. DH answered, “We don’t know if he had a wife on earth or not”. I added, “But we know he has to have one in heaven because anyone who is a God has to be married”, and DH added, “You know, like Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother”. And my sweet 7 year old boy looked at us in puzzlement and asked, “Heavenly Mother? Who’s that?”

 Wow again. In my house. Where I read Carol Lynn Pearson and waste the majority of my free (or not free) time on FMH and read “Eve and the Choice Made in Eden” (which DH bought for me) and basically everything else I can get my hand onto to glean any kind of knowledge about my Heavenly Mother. But somehow I have failed to ever tell my sons that they have a Heavenly Mother. In all of our family home evenings (which we do every week) and their Primary classes (which we attend every week), they have never even heard of their Heavenly Mother. And that makes me profoundly sad.

I wondered why I hadn’t taught them about Heavenly Mother. But, what would I teach? She is Heavenly Father’s wife. She is our mother in Heaven. And . . . um . . . that’s all I really know. No wonder we’ve never talked about it much before. There’s just not much to say.

But how could my son get to be 7 years old (8 in a few months) and never even have wondered if he had a Heavenly Mother to go along with his Heavenly Father? That makes me sad, too.

I can’t blame him or my other sons. As Ah… pointed out, just as we adult women are left to our own understanding of these issues (and spend hundreds upon hundreds of comments, posts, books, etc. hashing it out over and over again), my sons are essentially left to their own understanding to formulate a reason for why they will hold the priesthood and their sister won’t. I don’t really have any good answers beyond the wisdom of my 7 year old, “Because that’s just the way God created us”.

And, to tell you the truth, it’s an acceptable answer to me right now. For whatever reason, at this point, the Lord has given the priesthood to men. It’s a responsibility, not a privilege. I will teach my sons that. I’m also thinking that tonight for FHE, we’ll have a lesson on the priesthood, and I’ll tell them how the priesthood is the authority God grants to act in His name, and He gives it to the people He wants to authorize to do specific work for Him. But, after we die, if we prove faithful, and through the grace of Christ, we will all, men and women alike, become Gods and have all the power and authority that Gods have.

Is it enough? I don’t want to teach my sons my own thoughts or opinions or theories as doctrine. But I also don’t want them to grow up thinking they are better than girls because they have the priesthood.

I’ve seen similar problems in other areas. I stay at home to care for our children while DH works full-time. Sometimes my boys will say odd things like “Dad goes to work because he’s smarter than you”. WHAT????? Of course both DH and I correct them if we hear it, but it’s interesting and sad to me that they are doing the same thing here that they do with the priesthood. They try to make sense of why dad is working and mom cares for them by assuming that he is the smarter (or “better”) of the two.

I am not exactly sure how to counteract this. I am not planning to start working outside of my home just to prove to my children that I am smart, too. I do want to stay home (from 9-5) to care for them, and I do want DH to continue to pursue his career and be successful in it. But, I don’t want my kids to draw conclusions from that other than we are both doing our best to care for them. I don’t want to prescribe what their future spouses should do. I certainly don’t want to create gender stereotypes merely by the fact that I chose to stay home with them.

How do I avoid that? How do I continue to live my life in the way that I feel is right for me and my family without causing my sons to draw erroneous conclusions (which aren’t even that erroneous because most every other LDS boy is apparently drawing the same conclusion)? How do I teach egalitarianism when I am modeling traditionalism? Is it possible?

Note: this is not a discussion of whether or not the Mormon church is true. I am a faithful, active LDS saint with a strong testimony of the doctrine and am not interested in changing that. I am hoping this can be a discussion about parenting and the messages we send our children in the church.

245 Comments »

  1. Oh Stephanie. I don’t have much to add - Atticus’ vocabulary has recently expanded to include “Goose” after he learned it’s funny to pinch mama’s butt, so he’s not exactly up for the metaphysical yet - but I just wanted to say kudos and bravo for an excellent excellent post.

    Comment by Reese Dixon — February 1, 2010 @ 5:13 pm

  2. “How do I teach egalitarianism when I am modeling traditionalism?” Funny, I don’t feel like I am modeling traditionalism but for all intents and purposes, I guess I am.

    My oldest son was baptized this weekend. We’ve been focusing on baptism for the past few months so hopefully he could have a decent (enough for an eight year old) grasp of its significance.
    When talking about the priesthood, I asked if he knew why men held it and not women. He responded, “Because God trusts them more than women”. Ouch.

    Comment by Lupita — February 1, 2010 @ 5:15 pm

  3. I asked my “older” kids (10 and 7 yr old girls, 5 yr old boy) a trick question that if men and woman are hired to do the same job, who should be paid more? My son popped out “the man, because he is stronger and works harder.” I then asked him what if the woman works just as hard? And he said, “oh, the same” but I think his sisters’ looks gave him the clue he had said something wrong. I love your answer in teaching that the Priesthood is a responsibility more than a privilege. There are plenty of LDS Prophet quotes about our Mother, and that we (women) are created in the image of God (that God being a Heavenly Mother and Father). It even was brought up in Sunday school a few weeks ago…

    Comment by SarahJane — February 1, 2010 @ 5:17 pm

  4. Great questions, Stephanie. Thanks for raising them.

    Your kids’ inferences remind me of the saying that you’ve probably heard that we’re never not teaching our kids. Even when we’re not saying anything, kids will infer things based on the structures that they see. I wish I had a good answer to counteract this, but I don’t. When parenting arrangements (my wife is a SAHM too) and all-male general leadership lead my kids to believe things I think are false, if I counter-argue, that may be better than nothing, but in the end I fear they’ll believe what they see and not what they hear.

    Comment by Ziff — February 1, 2010 @ 5:37 pm

  5. I try to make sure I talk about stuff with my kids. If something is important to me, I try to water it down and teach it to my kids on whatever level they are on.
    I pretty much try to discuss something “big” with them every couple of weeks. From sex, to sexual abuse, to abortion, to polygamy, to gender differences/equality, to homosexuality, to SAHPs, to Nazis, to racism, to the history of the treatment of women, to childbirth, to war, to divorce, etc. I also try to ask them what they talked about in church so then I can expand on what they said was talked about so that in case they were taught something weird they get my opinion right after. I try to make talking about the gospel a daily thing.
    Unfortunately, it is easy to miss a topic. Or they weren’t paying attention when you said it, or they simply forgot, etc. There is a LOT of stuff to teach kids.
    I’ve told my 12 year old that men have the priesthood because God wants them to have that extra responsibility. She is fine with that. I am fine with it myself. So I think if you asked her she would say that, because the most recent discussion she seemed to generate it herself that it was a responsibility and that is all, it doesn’t mean they are ‘better.”
    Yesterday we talked about Adam and Eve which was way fun since I had the lesson in SS and my son had it in Primary.
    We have lots of discussion at our house about people being smarter in different areas. I am perfectly willing to say I am smarter than my husband in some things, but he is smarter than me in other areas. I also refer to what I do at home as “work” (something I learned in the bloggernacle years ago). If I am paying bills online or reading an article on parenting, that is my “work” so I tell them “I’m working.”

    Comment by jks — February 1, 2010 @ 5:43 pm

  6. Good point on identifying the work as work, jks.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 1, 2010 @ 5:47 pm

  7. Interesting post. My boys have 3 very talented older sisters. I think that shapes their world-view as well, because they’re quite used to being baby-sat.

    In our family, I take a lead role in house-cleaning. I was asking my 10-year-old a series of provocative questions, just to see what he said. “Who’s the smartest person in our family?” “Who’s the funniest?” etc. Then I asked him “who’s the boss in our family”. He was quiet for a moment, very thoughtful. “You are” he said. Gee. I asked him what made him think that, expecting something about priesthood or fathers presiding, etc., but he said “If you say I can do something, I can just do it. If Mom says I can, you always make me clean something up first.” :)

    Incidentally, I asked him who was the ugliest person in our family and he immediately laughed and said “those other questions were hard, Dad, but this one’s easy! It’s you! You’re losing your hair!!”

    Comment by Martin — February 1, 2010 @ 5:56 pm

  8. My daughter was baptized recently. I really was not excited about it, but after deliberation and discussion she felt it was right. She was having some anxiety over what “sin” was and if she had sinned (brought me back to my own anxieties that started at baptism), so we reassured her that realizing we can do better and trying is the key. When she was changing right after the baptism, she was shaking, I wanted to reassure her that we and our Heavenly Parents love her no matter what. She told me she didn’t believe there was a Heavenly Mother. When I told her I strongly believe in a Divine Mother, my lovely daughter confirmed one of my worst fears by saying our Heavenly Mother must not be that important or we would hear about her.

    Needless to say all my hesitations to talk and pray to our Heavenly Parents in more than private conversations is out the window. I try to never say only Heavenly Father, but to mention both Heavenly Mother and Father together. I even have started using Heavenly Parents in prayers with the family.

    Now to tackle priesthood, which will difficult because my active, great husband doesn’t really believe in authority and I am so conflicted it is hard to explain anything with out it sounding bitter or sadly resigned. Luckily we talk about a lot of hard topics with the kids, maybe I just need to honestly explain my love and pain over the priesthood?

    Comment by miles — February 1, 2010 @ 6:11 pm

  9. By the way, the priesthood is a responsibility. It is also a privilege. I know what you’re trying to get at, but I think the tack isn’t quite right…

    Comment by Martin — February 1, 2010 @ 6:12 pm

  10. How is the priesthood a privilege, Martin?

    Comment by Stephanie — February 1, 2010 @ 6:14 pm

  11. I remember a similar question I asked my mother as a child — why couldn’t girls be Catholic alter servers? [This is not a church-wide rule — it depends on the diocese, but ours was very conservative.] Her answer was a good one, and I have used variations of it myself. She said in the early days of our church, life was different, and men and women had very different roles in society out of necessity, and some teachings were based on those roles. Society has changed faster than the church — for better and for worse — and maybe someday the church will change, too, but that it wasn’t a good idea to force it to change, because that wasn’t the whole point.

    My kids also asked me a very secular question — why did I take time off from my outside-the-home job, after we moved to a new country a few years ago? Surely that meant that their father’s job was more important than the job I quit? And I explained, as best I could, that “importance” had nothing to do with it — I happen to be a more flexible field, and my husband happens to have a career-path government job that doesn’t allow him to take any leaves, and that the flexibility/stability tradeoff had nothing to do with gender in our case.

    Kids pick up all kinds of ideas. I, too, have a son who will be in a few months, and the other day he said to me that when people die, they go to sleep, and then wake up as a new human or animal. Um…I don’t think he learned that at his Catholic school….

    Comment by L. — February 1, 2010 @ 6:23 pm

  12. Or maybe, the Priesthood shouldn’t be a social privilege… like wealth is a privilege, etc, it should be seen as a Heavenly Father’s request to act in His name, not as a stamp of approval.

    Comment by SarahJane — February 1, 2010 @ 6:25 pm

  13. …son who will be EIGHT in a few months [the eight key is broken on my computer]…

    Comment by L. — February 1, 2010 @ 6:25 pm

  14. I didn’t read all the comments because I wanted to respond directly to the post, but Stephanie I really liked what you had to say. I think there are volumes that can be written about how it is that we teach our young boys how to value and respect women. I have one son and one daughter, and I always say that when it comes to my son - I will consider myself a great parent if I raise him to truly respect all women around him, and admire them for their strengths and abilities.

    I have two single LDS sisters (one is 35 and one is 27) and I have seen them be mistreated time and time again by “good”, “faithful” LDS boys who have no clue as to their value and their worth. I know its a bit of a stray from your OP, but it got me thinking of it nonetheless. I don’t know if its the patriarchal nature of the church, or if its the non-doctrinal culture that exists in the LDS church, but unfortunately it is often true that young men don’t seem to value their female counterparts in the way they should.

    So I guess what I’m saying is that its a good question to ask, and your post really made me think. So thank you.

    Comment by Natalee — February 1, 2010 @ 6:47 pm

  15. Would it be okay to say that the father works because at this point he has a higher earning ability which enables both parents to provide for the family in the best way currently? Something along those lines so that it is not about intelligence, education or whatever, just the way that the numbers line up.

    Comment by StillConfused — February 1, 2010 @ 6:55 pm

  16. Not in my case, StillConfused. My earning potential is actually greater at this point.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 1, 2010 @ 7:02 pm

  17. Personally as far as being a SAHM I tell my kids that I stay at home because both myself and my husband love them so much. Dad goes to work so that I can stay at home and keep the house running. That is my job. If I worked worked outside the house dad would stay home with them. Plain and simple. It just worked out the way it did, and if ever I do go back to work that is exactly what would happen.

    My oldest is 6 years old and I need to start talking about these things with him… thanks for bringing it to the forefront Stephanie.

    Comment by April — February 1, 2010 @ 7:02 pm

  18. there are just some posts that SPEAK to each of us….this is it for me. Stephanie, I LOVE this post! Faithful, thoughtful, demanding, real….I don’t have any children yet but this constantly haunts me. In fact, I think that I get hyper about making sure that we are/seem egalitarian NOW so that when we have chidlren they won’t think that “it’s women’s work to clean the house” etc….But with a husband who has always had, and most likely always will have, leadership callings in the church, and me as a (future) sahm, I obssess about how to teach our sons (?) and daughters (?) that they are equal and about the Priesthood and about working oustide vs. inside the home etc etc etc. I think this is a fabulously aware post, highlighting how easy it is to not have these conversations with children…you have given me lots to think about in terms of making sure this is a dialogue that we have (while balancing teaching doctrine and not just my opinions…). Stephanie, thanks again for this post - wonderfully done!

    Comment by Amanda — February 1, 2010 @ 7:09 pm

  19. Re 15 - But I don’t need to justify why I stay at home and DH works. I don’t need to justify why DH has the priesthood and I don’t. When my kids ask why they don’t get to go to daycare after school with their friends, I tell them that someone gets to watch them, and I’m the lucky one who got the job. That’s really pretty much it. Same with the priesthood. DH is the one who got that job. I don’t think we should make judgements about our worth or talents or whatever based on our responsibilities or division of labor.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 1, 2010 @ 7:25 pm

  20. I think it would be more natural for my son to feel like men are inferior. He has an older sister who is far more capable and quick than he is. She is even stronger, of course, until puberty kicks in for him. She is gifted academically. He has a learning disability.
    I think that my husband respects what I do here at home so much that he thinks it is more important work than what he does. I have to make sure the kids know that when Dad is at work, he is working for the good of our family just like I am.
    I like having both boys and girls because I am constantly thinking about the pros and cons of our society for girls’ sakes and for boys’ sakes. There is plenty out there to give the wrong message for both girls and boys.
    It didn’t take my kindergarten girl (#3) long to notice that all the bad kids in class were boys…..and my 4th grade son agreed with her because it is the same in his class (with rare exceptions which my kindergartner eventually noticed).

    Comment by jks — February 1, 2010 @ 7:27 pm

  21. I guess the bottom line to my rambling (continuing comment 19) is this: am I doing more harm than good in my reluctance to address the issues head-on? I don’t want to form value statements or judgements for my children, but in that absence, are they filling the vaccum with their own incorrect judgements? Or worse, judgements they are gathering from society? Is it just a young kid thing that they will eventually outgrow? Will the examples DH and I set in other ways (respecting each other, making decisions together, him leading household chores on Saturday, both of us pitching in to whatever work needs to be done at hand, etc.) eventually prevail over just our full-time occupations? I hope so, but I’m not sure.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 1, 2010 @ 7:47 pm

  22. “… in the early days of our church, life was different, and men and women had very different roles in society out of necessity, and some teachings were based on those roles. Society has changed faster than the church …”

    I like that reasoning, L. (#11)

    Comment by Matt A. — February 1, 2010 @ 8:12 pm

  23. I’m currently reading a fascinating book called NurtureShock about the science of raising children. There’s a chapter about race - specifically how children develop their attitudes and prejudices and beliefs about race. The research that was quoted in this book showed that kids whose parents spoke in specific terms about race and racial equality had much more egalitarian views and behaviors than those whose parents avoided the topic or those who addressed it in very vague terms (i.e. “Everyone’s equal”). Even being in an ethnically diverse environment didn’t affect behavior and attitudes as much as parents talking explicitly about race with their children. The book talks about how children, especially up to about 2nd grade, are prone to categorization - that’s how they make sense of their world - and they generalize rules from the examples they see.

    I don’t see why that wouldn’t apply to gender as well. Especially when modeling “traditionalism” as I am at this point in time, I think it’s important to make sure my boys are exposed to not only others who aren’t in the same “traditional” situation, but also to have explicit discussions about gender equality and the priesthood. It’s not always easy, particularly when I don’t have all the answers, but I think any discussion is better than leaving them to figure it out for themselves.

    Not that I’m anywhere near perfect, or even very good at this. It’s something I’m working on…

    Comment by EmiG — February 1, 2010 @ 8:12 pm

  24. Wonderful post, Stephanie. Another power differential between men and women in the home is that only men are allowed to bless their children while the women are not. This means that men are seen by children as being more important than women - because only Daddy can bless you when you are sick. Of course there are nuances, but children understand that their fathers bless them with the power of God and their mothers do not. And we wonder why children believe that men are more important than women?

    I think Ziff nailed it:

    When parenting arrangements (my wife is a SAHM too) and all-male general leadership lead my kids to believe things I think are false, if I counter-argue, that may be better than nothing, but in the end I fear they’ll believe what they see and not what they hear.

    Comment by ECS — February 1, 2010 @ 8:19 pm

  25. I too am haunted by this post as Amanda so well put it. No children of my own, yet I sit up sometimes late into the night and wonder, how can I possibly raise my children right? “How do I teach egalitarianism when I am modeling traditionalism? I am a student now and there will come a time when I leave my profession as a counselor and make the CHOICE to stay at home and raise my children. (Because it is what feels right to me, at this time, I don’t know if it will be in the future) Does that mean my children will think of me as less valuable? I too have seen the one many strong, talented LDS women are treated, off handedly and like an extension to their husbands happiness, some of these women are my close friends and they wonder why my DH does NOT treat me that way. My “feminist” views are considered threatening and the way my husband “gives” me leadership makes a lot of the other husbands uncomfortable. Is it even HIS leadership to give? But that seems to be the general feeling here in very saturated UT county. Having these conversations with my children will be an important part of life growing up, yet I am afraid, as many of you said, of tainting them with my own opinions and not allowing them to make their own. Because isn’t that the most important thing I believe, that we do HAVE a choice. Being a parent must be terrifying. I commend you all who do it, day in and day out, and especially to those trying to raise balanced and open-minded children. Good Luck!

    Comment by Sara M — February 1, 2010 @ 8:32 pm

  26. Interesting post. it is my opinion that on subjects there is a large outside voice contrary to what I want my children to hear, I need to voice my opinions to them-not just let them get it through osmosis. It is clear that i nthe world many people think women are inferior or brown people aren’t something enough… and behavior and words say as much. We need to be at least as loud as that to counter act.

    IMO the most important thing we can do is develop a sense that God loves them-this will cover a lot of ground for girls or boys who do have to shelve some things, but know that God loves them…

    Our hesitance is we don’t know some things-that’s important for children to know to-it’s wonderful for them to know we don’t know and what we od about that-even to the point as they age to let htem know our frustrations and how we have dealt with them. The struggle is part of faith.

    I’ve made a habit of connecting why men have the priesthood with the sons of Aaron having it….it is also easy to find many scriptures about how all are alike unto God

    There used to be a link at the side of FMH -someone’s talk about mother in heaven (please correct and abridge my lack of memory)

    I do have older children-so they naturally have more questions (my oldest daughter is 13

    As for me staying home..we say that we read the Proclamation on the family and prayed about how to apply it to our family…

    I think the key is like stephanie to keep asking your children so you know what they have gotten and how clear you really were.

    Comment by britt — February 1, 2010 @ 8:34 pm

  27. Good post. I remember when the Sunstone issue with the cover “Are Boys More Important that Girls” came in the mail. My then 8 y.o. son read it and asked, “Are boys more important than girls?” I asked what he thought. “He said, “Maybe yes, because they get the priesthood.” We have since had many conversations about priesthood and continuing revelation, including the history of withholding the priesthood from blacks, how women used to minister to each other and the sick, and how it is possible that things may change in the future. Or not.
    A few weeks ago we read the story of Zephelohad’s daughters in Numbers and had the discussion all over again. We work within the status quo, but we can tell God and our leaders what we think of unfairness within the system. And sometimes, God will say, you’re right, let’s fix this.

    Comment by reader Rachel — February 1, 2010 @ 8:34 pm

  28. Stephanie, I say the priesthood is a privilege because it gives its bearer the opportunity to participate in the Lord’s work in a way one couldn’t without it. It is not a right. You don’t get it just because you’re male. It has no power when not used in accordance with God’s will. But if your blessed with it, it can be awesome. I have given blessings when I felt the Lord guide my words, and I cannot think of it as anything other than a tremendous privilege.

    I agree with #12, that it shouldn’t be seen as a social privilege, but it is. You know that every time you sit in Sacrament meeting and see your husband sitting on the stand by the bishop. And I’m not sure that’s completely a bad thing — it gives your husband an even greater ability to do good.

    I can certainly understand why some women would covet the priesthood, especially if they feel the Spirit as it’s employed.

    I think you should teach your sons that the priesthood is a privilege — it’s something they should desire and strive to be worthy of. Not because of the social status, not because it makes them better than others (esp women) but because of the opportunities it gives them to be closer to God and bless those they love.

    What they need to be taught is that contributions of women are just as important as those of men. I know that fatherhood is the complement of motherhood, not priesthood, but I’ve felt the Spirit very strongly watching my wife “mother”, and I’ve coveted the Spirit she’s had with her as she’s given birth, nursed, and mothered my children. I could easily picture her giving her babies a blessing, and there may very well come a time when that is common in the church again.

    By the way, I hesitate to even bring that up because of all the women who are going to say “I’ve never found anything spiritual about nursing” or whatever, but there are also plenty of men who haven’t found anything particularly spiritual in being ordained an elder. That’s just my experience.

    Comment by Martin — February 1, 2010 @ 8:38 pm

  29. martin…IMO it’s a privelege if it’s an option for you. I personally that anything God wants me to do i can do…he’s not going to hold it against me that I don’t have the priesthood-so if it involves healing something-it’s his power anyway…but if a man had the opportunity to hold the priesthood and through his own choices didn’t and ahealing is needed-too bad.

    It’s not nursing or motherhood that gives you the spirit-it’s doing what the Lord wants you to do-if that’s motherhood-then yes-it’s a big ask, so big blessings and support.

    Comment by britt — February 1, 2010 @ 8:52 pm

  30. Martin, I get what you are conveying, and I think I prefer to use the word “honor” to teach the same principle.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 1, 2010 @ 8:57 pm

  31. Funny, as a child I remember a Sunday school teacher saying just the opposite - that men aren’t as good as women so they need the priesthood and women don’t. I think both assumptions are bunches of hooey.

    Comment by patti — February 1, 2010 @ 9:41 pm

  32. What a wonderful post! Surely Heavenly Father doesn’t give the priesthood to men because they are “better.” I like your idea of teaching your sons that the priesthood is a responsibility, not a privilege. Personally I think (18 year old male here) that the priesthood was given to men (partly) to keep them in line. It is a well known fact easily observed that 9 times out of 10, women are more (how do you say it?) focused than men.

    While the man (not all men) will sit down on the couch and absorb the TV, the woman will look at him and wonder “How can you be so mindless?” The priesthood gives focus and responsibility to man. I mean no offense when I say that women don’t need it as much as men do. My mother is just as strong, brave, and spiritual as my father. She uses my father’s priesthood when necessary.

    About our Heavenly Mother. I think, in my unenlightened state, that the Lord does not speak much of Her because He does not want her slandered and mocked as He is by wicked people. At least I think this is part of the reason.

    Comment by Sean — February 1, 2010 @ 10:33 pm

  33. martin, perhaps this isn’t a good post to hash out what the priesthood is/means. let me direct your attention to this most excellent post on the subject.

    Comment by mfranti — February 1, 2010 @ 11:03 pm

  34. #32 - Really Sean, I don’t think we need to be perpetuating tired old stereotypes on this thread. Or maybe you’re comment is the perfect example as to why Stephanie is so concerned.

    Really, if I had to read the whole “women are inherently better than men and if they don’t have the priesthood it’ll become some huge Lord of the Flies situation” one more time, I’m going to make like mfranti and puke ;-)

    Comment by Risa — February 1, 2010 @ 11:21 pm

  35. #32 - My husband rolled his eyes at the blatant sexism in your statement. And then he promptly went back to mindlessly watching TV.

    Comment by Risa — February 1, 2010 @ 11:26 pm

  36. #32 Three cheers for any 18 year old male reading this site!

    Stephanie, I don’t have anything to add but to say I’ve thought about this post for a few hours now. I am fairly certain that what I teach my boys (ie we don’t know why men have the priesthood currently and women don’t) isn’t what they will be taught in church. Most women in my ward are extremely conservative and traditional and uncomfortable with even the term Heavenly Mother. I do feel especially motivated to talk about these issues with my boys now.

    Comment by Lupita — February 1, 2010 @ 11:50 pm

  37. Good point, Lupita.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 2, 2010 @ 12:18 am

  38. My Husband asked me last night, “Do you think our daughter will grow up thinking cooking is a masculine trait?” I never really thought about it until that moment. Maybe it is natural for children to try to compartmentalize men and women’s roles in order to develop their own identity. Perhaps from the beginning they see themselves as the same or different as mom or dad. How scary it is to have a identity thrust down their throat every sunday that trumps what is in the home. We just have to brainwash out children into thinking how we think and hopefully in the end they grow up the brainwashing will kick in when they start to raise their own families. :) But I can see it being much more difficult for women and men whom follow the traditional roles. We sometimes make assumptions about what our parents believe by the role they take. Perhaps thats why being vocal is so important. It sad though, How many times do we have to say “different but equal”? And is saying it ever going to make it true?

    Comment by CZ — February 2, 2010 @ 12:22 am

  39. Wow, I can’t believe how often something as silly as a website impacts me so deeply. Thank you Steph, for the post, and everyone else, for your comments.

    Martin, your #28 really made me think. The last few years have been a swamp for me. There have been moments where I’ve been ready to send in my letter of resignation to the church, and moments where I drop on my knees pleading that some light or inspiration or SOMETHING will come. Usually, I cope by just putting it all aside and deciding not to care. But your comment reminded me so suddenly of the power I once used to feel when receiving a Priesthood blessing. And at the same time, came like a punch in my stomach, because I realized I could never impart of those same miraculous feelings to my (future) children.

    When I think of all the women I know who have been silent in so many ways for so long, who have talked themselves into accepting a situation where they’re unhappy, I just feel a deep ache in my heart. Not because we’re all being brainwashed, and I’m not saying people’s feelings are insincere. But my 14-year old convert young woman didn’t even question why she didn’t have the Priesthood. How did she become so far removed from the divine sense of power that I feel must be in womanhood? Many of my close friends felt deep remorse over changing their name upon marriage, but did so out of a sense of obligation.

    I can deal with it on my own. But if I have a daughter….. I feel overwhelmed at the mere thought of holding a child that is mine. I can’t even express the powerful feeling of protectiveness that I get. Without her even existing yet, I know I cannot expose her to the words and practices that have become a poison to my soul.

    Ah. I’m not saying anything. Just crying by myself at a keyboard. We really need to have that Seattle snacker, k?

    Comment by Natalie K. — February 2, 2010 @ 12:35 am

  40. Natalie, I would like to say it goes away. I cried for a month straight when I found out I was having a girl. I knew I should be grateful that i could even have a child but somehow I was filled with gloom. I was so devastated! It was not because I wanted a boy, even though that was the only other logical choice. :) I just knew from the moment I found out that I would as you said, “expose her to the words and practices that have become a poison to my soul”. There is not a day goes by where my Husband and I say, “I hope she grows up smart but not very attractive.” Before I got married I thought, “What if I can’t have children once I get married?” I remember thinking. “I guess I will just have to understand that my Husband will want a divorce.” I was brought up to think that was all I was worth. I even had a great Feminist Mother!!!!!! Yes a Feminist Mother. THe church is powerful and a Mother can only do so much… So I still cry and often. :)

    Comment by CZ — February 2, 2010 @ 12:49 am

  41. It’s a responsibility, not a privilege.

    First off, beautiful post. This post is very thought provoking, and something I will be talking to my kids about. The quote above is very intriguing to me and something I will be pondering a lot the next few days. Mainly because I wonder how true this rings for us as women as well. Are there things in our lives that our responsibilities and not privileges?

    Nicely done Steph!

    Comment by Sunshine — February 2, 2010 @ 12:49 am

  42. #34 Risa, i think maybe considering that Sean is 18 might help you to be a little empathetic to him. I don’t think he is meaning to be trite, i think he is repeating things that the church has taught him… be that through omission or speculation or what have you. When i was 18 I was just starting to realize that things maybe weren’t as fair as I was taught they were. I’m sure he is probably unaware of the bristles some of his words have raised, probably because he has been told these things most of his life. Instead of picking on him, maybe enlightening him a little on how those things can cause frustration might be advised.

    For instance, the fact that most women that have put much thought into it wonder if the whole “the Lord does not speak much of Her because He does not want her slandered and mocked.” sounds a lot like a proverbial burka. In Muslim religions (as far as I understand) the burka is meant to protect the women, but ends up instead often making her a ghost or non-human as far as those around her are concerned leaving more openings for abuse of her and feelings of unimportance within herself. How would you feel if your society wanted you so badly to disappear that they almost literally blotted you out? But because you are essential to continuing life you are merely allowed to exist.

    Sean, I’m glad you read. I hope that maybe some things on this website can open your eyes to the inequality many feel. If actions speak louder than words why must we constantly be told we are equally valued in the Church? Why not show us this? We doing want to be seen as being superior to men, we want to be equal. There is a reason that parenthood is a partnership… both should give equally. I am no more spiritual than my husband. We may find spirituality in different places, but neither is more inclined to be so. Sometimes people telling me that I’m more inherently spiritual, or “focused” as you say, I wonder if maybe they are just trying to pacify me,

    There are a couple of harsh people around on every website, don’t be off-put by them. Read and understand the best you can, with empathy in your heart and I think you will find many beautiful struggles here.

    Good luck.

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 12:50 am

  43. Thank you, Stephanie. Great post. I try to bring up topics like this with my oldest sometimes, but she’s 5. Right now we’re working on her understanding that if Daddy stayed home instead of Mom (which she has wished aloud when I’ve been busy with houseWork) we talk about how he works to get us money to pay for our house/clothes/food and if he stayed at home then I would have to work somewhere else, and hewould have to do more of the houseWork.

    I’m also trying to carve out time regularly for school (independant study classes) and hobbies and personal/career goals and have her be aware that Mommy does more than just tend house and babies. It helps that my husband usually folds laundry across the hall during the girls’ bathtime, and that he leads them in cleaning their room, etc. She knows that it’s everyone’s job to help at home. We’re a family, and we all have different jobs to help us reach our common goal.

    And YES to a Seattle Snacker! Can we please get a thread started on that? Thanks!

    Comment by ErinAnn — February 2, 2010 @ 12:54 am

  44. Did any of you attacking Sean notice that he is an 18 year old male trying to engage in dialogue on FMH, and that he was really appreciative of the OP. Nice welcome.

    Comment by Brian — February 2, 2010 @ 12:58 am

  45. Re the OP… I have struggled with how to teach my daughter to be a leader. How do I do this when everything the Church teaches her is to be a follower? I don’t want her quietly sitting and watching as others pave a way before her, be that in church or in society. I want her to pave her own path. How do I do that in a highly LDS population where girls are mostly just taught to support the boys?

    I’ve been reading the responses hoping to glean idea from them, for both my daughter and my sons. I don’t want her to think her only value to is grow up, get married, and have babies. What if those things don’t happen for her? What then? And I don’t want my boys to think that they are in any way superior or inferior to women. I hope that they will never see being a SAHD is shameful in ANY way. If they find the desire to do that and their spouse and they can make that a possibility…. well, to say I would be proud is probably an understatement.

    If only I can open their eyes early without taking away their freedom to explore and decide for themselves how they think about these things. If only I can show them both sides of the coin.

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 1:02 am

  46. Brian, #42 is just that. Recognizing he’s 18 and trying to let him know why some were upset by what he said, then welcoming him.

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 1:04 am

  47. Oh, and it was ONE person that reacted knee jerk style. Don’t chastise the whole for one persons actions please.

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 1:05 am

  48. Great post, Stephanie. When reading I thought of the same research EmiG brings up in regards to teaching (or not teaching) our children about race. Even in places and situations that were very diverse and with parents and teachers who valued and lived the principles of equality for all races, in the absence of being taught anything about race the children started showing prejudices. They notice when things are different, and if someone else doesn’t give them a reason for it, they’ll try to come up with one themselves.

    This is a good reminder to me, since my kids (well, one of them at least) are in the categorization phase, wanting to label and categorize everything. (i.e. “A hot dog is round like a circle; it is not shaped like a octagon.”, “[DS3] is not a brother, he’s just a baby,” and “[DS3] is not a freight car.”) I need to start talking about why things are the way they are, or they’re going to come up with their own explanations, which I probably won’t like.

    I also worry occasionally about if my kids will grow up thinking that men work and women stay home (or a few other stereotypes) because that’s the choices my husband and I made for our family. But then I think that my parents made pretty traditional choices as well, and I never thought that I shouldn’t go to grad school or have a career or anything else just because I was a girl. I think part of that was just an odd personality quirk of mine (one I hope my children manage to inherit). But as I’ve thought more about it I think part of it might have been because my dad always told us that my mom was in charge. They made most decisions together, and they were both very responsible, but my dad had responsibilities at work and my mom had more responsibilities at home, and we were always aware of that. The only time my dad would tell us if we could do something (go to a friend’s house, have a sleepover, etc.) was if my mom had told us to ask him. Otherwise he just told us to ask our mom, because she was in charge. I think somehow it managed to mesh with all of the men presiding junk and their actual example of working together and leave me with a very good ideal of what an egalitarian marriage should/could look like.

    Comment by Vada — February 2, 2010 @ 1:37 am

  49. Excellent post, Stephanie! I really hadn’t taken the time to really tease out this issue like you have. I am really enjoying the responses and hope to use some of the advice myself.

    Comment by Sonia — February 2, 2010 @ 3:12 am

  50. I couldn’t help but talk to my kids today about some of this stuff. I found out that the two middle ones didn’t remember me mentioning HM before (I can look up the exact date because I remember commenting about the hymn that I chose because I like it mentioning HM).
    When asked about whether God loves boys or girls better the two middle ones were thoroughly convinced that God loves them the same. We got to talk about everyone in different life circumstances but it doesn’t mean God loves us differently.
    When I asked my 10 year old son (alone) why he thought men had the priesthood and women didn’t he said “I don’t know.” He got kudos for that one because I told him no one knew for sure, just that is the way God has it set up for now.
    I also found out that my kids wonder about whether we will have shoes in heaven if we can’t take any stuff with us.
    Kids are so cute, and I absolutely love talking to them about this stuff.
    Stephanie, are you sure you can’t discuss this stuff in a happy, positive way? Because when I told my kids about Heavenly Mother and how we didn’t know a lot about her, I could tell them that maybe someday we would know more about her or when we die we’ll get to see her. To me, it was a happy thought. I want them to be happy to think of their Heavenly Mother.
    So, thank you for this topic. I appreciate it.
    It is just a little scary, though, that parents of boys aren’t talking to them. Just a couple weeks ago I was talking to my husband about how we have to teach our sons not to be rapists. He was shocked, but I pointed out that how could we not? With all the negative messages they will get about treating girls as objects, how can we not specifically teach them how to treat women properly. Yes, our example will make a difference, but I figure it will take hundreds of conversations to teach them what they should learn.

    Comment by jks — February 2, 2010 @ 3:36 am

  51. so, I still weep a little inside when I see posts like this. An excellent post, but how much longer can things go on like this? What kind of effect is this having on both boys and girls?

    Comment by jddaughter — February 2, 2010 @ 3:55 am

  52. Excellent post. I think that Sean is naive to an extent, but is well intended. People need to stop being so easily offended. Yes we guys do tend to be mindless slobs and need to be reeled in at times, and I will concur that the priesthood is a great tool for that. The stereotypes for men are oftentimes extremely appropriate. Though tisk tisk to you Sean for suggesting that some LDS men could fit into that category! The nerve!

    My opinion on the matter is found in the Family: A Proclamation to the World. Men have the priesthood because it is their duty to be spiritually responsible for their family. It is just their puzzle piece that fits in with the rest of the family unit. The husband has responsibilities, and so does the wife. Call that sexist if you want.

    Comment by Tirian — February 2, 2010 @ 5:07 am

  53. On a side note, I think that some of the restrictions are strange. I have no understanding as to why a mother cannot hold her child during their child’s blessing. I have also been told that a woman cannot be a ward clerk. This doesn’t affect my faith or bring any doctrinal issues up to front, but it does make me wonder the reasoning.

    Comment by Tirian — February 2, 2010 @ 5:48 am

  54. Sean, as a perma here (albeit a mostly absent one!), I heartily welcome you to fMh and I hope that you will continue to read and to contribute. Kudos to you for thinking about these issues at your age–it took me four or five years of marriage to convince my husband that he really is a feminist.

    Stephanie, this is a topic near and dear to my heart; thank you for posting it. I have five daughters and one son, and sometimes I despair over being able to teach–both by modeling and verbally–how beloved and precious each of them is, equal before our Heavenly Parents. I, too, model a “traditional” marriage with (mostly) traditional roles (feminist Mormon housewife to a T, ‘cept I’m not a great housewife), and try to balance pursuit of my own interests and talents with my conviction that, at this point in my life, being an at-home mom is best for my particular family (thankfully, we have the income and circumstances that allow for that choice). I need to be better at articulating these choices to my kids and finding out what their assumptions are in order to affirm or combat them (thank you, Stephanie, for the nudge).

    I was once asked a powerful two-part question: the first was, “What is it that you want for your daughters?” The second: “Are you modeling that for them?” Yeesh.

    Comment by Idahospud — February 2, 2010 @ 10:06 am

  55. Wow, Stephanie, this is a lot to chew on.

    I have to believe it’s possible to teach egalitarianism while being a SAHM. This may have already been said, but one way to do it would be to explain how what you do at home is WORK. Maybe point out that both daddy and mommy have life insurance because if daddy died, you’d need to replace his salary, and if mommy died you’d have to hire a nanny, housekeeper, taxi driver, grocery shopper, cook, butler, and event planner. And that would be expensive!

    And don’t be too hard on yourself about the Heavenly Mother thing - She’s not in any of the curriculum and not in the scriptures, so it’s no wonder we forget about her sometimes. But thanks for the reminder. I sometimes wonder when I should mention Her to my 3 year old, but I’m kind of afraid he’ll pick up on it in a big way and talk about it a lot at Nursery - then they’ll all think I’m even more of a feminist nut-job than they already do!

    Comment by Emily U — February 2, 2010 @ 10:08 am

  56. idaho spud..what thought provoking quesitons

    Comment by britt — February 2, 2010 @ 10:40 am

  57. Steph, what a great post! I want to send this to every single mother I know…

    am I doing more harm than good in my reluctance to address the issues head-on? I don’t want to form value statements or judgements for my children, but in that absence, are they filling the vaccum with their own incorrect judgements?

    You know I don’t have kids, but this is something I’ve thought about a lot. Do I risk “tainting” my sister, my nephews, the sunbeams, with my doubts and questions? I’ve come to the conclusion that yes, I should. Not only because I want them to realize that HF doesn’t love boys more than girls, but becaue I want them to realize that it’s okay to ask questions like this. Or any questions they have. To me, it’s all about tone… yes it’s okay to ask questions, yes it’s okay to admit we don’t understand something, but HF and HM still love you and you can figure it out with their help, type of thing…

    I think it’s like the whole, don’t try and discipline if you’re too angry to teach. Don’t try and talk about gender issues when you’re too emotional to do it rationally (without the bitter streak I find creeping in myself some times.)

    Comment by Enna — February 2, 2010 @ 11:06 am

  58. Natalie- I think you’re an honest woman. That’s not always an easy or a comfortable thing to be. I think you’re courage is beyond admirable. I have nothing else to offer except my witness that you’re not the only one.

    Comment by Withheld — February 2, 2010 @ 11:10 am

  59. My computer crashed as I posted, so this is a cut down version from memory. The other night my son, age 11.5, asked me why girls don’t have the priesthood. I asked him why he thought they didn’t, he said he didn’t know - but it wasn’t fair that boys HAD to go on missions and girls get to choose. I told him that girls do have priesthood that they use in the temples and that parents share the priesthood. We talked about how both parents are expected to be good parents, but moms (mostly) seem to spend more time with small children than Dads. This led nicely into a talk about Heavenly Mother. DS has some interesting thoughts about her. He suggested that maybe she is a stay at heaven parent. Maybe earth stuff is Heavenly Father’s “job,” and She is in charge of preparing people to come here and takes care of them when they get back to heaven. He thinks that is a very important job and that HM is in charge of that because people are going to be sad to leave their families here on earth and will need some really big cuddles when they get to heaven. He also thinks that Her favorite colors might be reds and pinks because HF created a LOT of flowers those colors to show his love for her. Maybe She is in charge of the beautiful things on earth that make us happy, like sunsets, snow, cool animals, and that leaves HF some time to deal with other stuff. (As a side note, I help DH with a lot of the paperwork for his job, so doing a job together isn’t a big deal to him.) These are just his thoughts and I think that they are good ones. He doesn’t feel that She loves us any less, maybe more, because we spend lots more time in heaven than on earth. He’s comfortable with those thoughts, feels loved equally, and I certainly don’t know any different so we left it at that.
    DS doesn’t think that boys are smarter than girls, or having a specific job makes you better. I work part-time in a law office and I read far better than dad does. But, dad can do really hard math in his head and has lots of camping and wilderness knowledge. We also split house repairs. Dad does NOT do plumbing (of any sort), and mom does NOT do jobs that require tall ladders.

    Comment by JC — February 2, 2010 @ 11:25 am

  60. I’ve been thinking a lot about the gospel and roles lately. I find it perplexing how differently people process the directives associated with the concept of stewardship. I think the models that exist in a persons life provide the lens through which those issues are viewed. Stephanie, I think your son’s tongue in cheek remark doesn’t need to cause a panic. I think boys that age love to get a rise out of their moms, and the great example that you and your husband are providing will yield a more nuanced understanding than your boys may articulate to you now.
    I remember an interesting conversation I had with one of my girlfriends. She was a rigorous feminist and had big issues with the culture that arises from men holding the priesthood. Not surprisingly, her Dad was one of these guys who held the priesthood over the heads of his family- didn’t lift a finger at home, expected to be served hand and foot, but wasn’t really even a great provider. In her mind, his behavior was the product of some kind of priesthood entitlement. I know the church gets blamed for producing this kind of dynamic, but I can’t help but think that the man who understands his stewardship this way does so in direct opposition to everything the church really teaches.
    Incidentally, that same girlfriend was thrilled with my approach to role dynamics. She appreciated how egalitarian my ideals were, how much I wanted to be a nurturer as a father, how there was a culture of male domesticity in my family (when we all get together, it’s the guys in the kitchen. I’m way more likely to swap recipes with my brothers than my wife is with her sisters). The interesting thing is that those features of my understanding are directly tied to my nurture in the gospel and my father’s exercise of his priesthood (though he is not particularly domestic). My parents took very traditional roles in their marriage and didn’t discuss gender politics much, but six sons have grown up with a very progressive attitude about roles. Don’t underestimate the power of example.
    When I think about what the priesthood really means to me in relation to my own family, the word that comes to mind is stewardship. I think the church could go a long way by focusing more on the real meaning of stewardship. I love to garden, and if I’m a steward of my land, it means I care for it, I protect it, and I seek to realize it’s potential. The essence of stewardship has nothing to do with dominance, abuse, or control (all of which run counter to true stewardship). If I am a steward of my family, my primary interest is in helping each member of that family to reach their full potential. It also has nothing to do with power or even decision making- it is solely service. I’ve realized recently with my wife, that my stewardship towards her requires me to be much more active in nurturing roles with the kids. The weight of her biological connection to the nurture of our young kids is something that threatens her ability to reach her full potential in other areas. If my responsibility to her involves helping her realize her potential, then I need to give her the time and space to do that. It means pedestrian things like taking the kids whenever I can so that she can pursue things that are important to her. This same principle of stewardship should apply in ALL priesthood offices.
    I don’t know why it is that men have this particular responsibility or why there is a distinction in these roles. I do think that in this era of increasing fatherlessness, anything which gives a man a sense of responsibility to mother and offspring is positive. I don’t mean to imply that men are weak and can ‘t be good involved fathers without the crutch of the priesthood, but my seeking to understanding the true nature of stewardship will hopefully lead me to be a much better husband and father than the natural man would have been.

    Comment by Brian — February 2, 2010 @ 11:28 am

  61. Well, I also applaud Sean for reading here and thinking about this. And I applaud you, Stephanie for your careful post. I’m 51 and am as naive as Sean in some ways, despite my years in the church.

    I have sadly repeated some of those same thoughts that are not as comforting as they may be hoped to be.

    I will say that I was fortunate to have a dad who taught me less than a year after we all joined the church (over 40 years ago) that the priesthood was not a weapon with which to subdue women, and it did not mean the holder of that priesthood was by virtue of that priesthood right or honored. (That lesson came when he overheard me make one of those thoughtless comments little boys make. And how fortunate I was to have made the comment and received his lesson which I have always treasured. Part of our joy as parents is being able to catch our kids in their errors and turn those into teaching moments, and how fortunate for kids when one of their parents can be close by at those times.)

    The blessings of the priesthood are not for those who hold it, but those who receive its ordinances according to D&C 84, and I teach that message to my sons and daughters (and anyone else who will listen).

    My own personal observation is that individual members — men and women — each bring gifts to the table by virtue of their own individual strengths and experiences, and we do well as a community of saints to celebrate those gifts together.

    Thanks for sharing yours today.

    Comment by Paul — February 2, 2010 @ 11:37 am

  62. I really appreciate the guys chiming in with their perspectives. That is all. Continue. :)

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 12:06 pm

  63. #60 That’s beautiful, thanks for sharing. Your son is pretty awesome. :)

    Very interesting thread. My daughter is due in about 3-4 weeks, so issues like this have definitely been on my mind.

    Comment by Bro. Jones — February 2, 2010 @ 12:25 pm

  64. This is exactly why I want to take my son and run and Stephanie, your sons’ responses made my skin crawl in their innocent clarity. Ziff is right, children will watch what people do…it is way more powerful than what people say. The neat thing about kids is that they cut through the BS. Sure, on some sophistocated concepts, they come up short and misinterpret, but come on…if males hold the authority, the females all answer to the males, Heavenly Father loves us all equally, but only the males get the priesthood, the priesthood is required to make all the important church decisions, the women who do make decisions must clear it through the men…I think it’s pretty basic and quite accurate to conclude that not only are men superior to women, but Heavenly Father endorses that concept. Don’t get me started on the HM thing…because the policy on that Great Woman that is practiced in our church is the model for women being kept completely in the background (in the name of sacredness and protection…so we say.) Even the annoying affectation of some LDS women of speaking in this wimpy, whispery voice suggests that we need to keep quiet. That is what they see, that is also what I see when I’m not denying it or trying to figure out how to swallow it all.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 2, 2010 @ 1:17 pm

  65. Awesome comment, Brian #60. Thanks.

    Comment by ECS — February 2, 2010 @ 1:36 pm

  66. Re: #26 britt: Here’s the link to the talk on Mother in Heaven.

    Comment by Amy — February 2, 2010 @ 1:41 pm

  67. I think it is my responsibility to directly teach my sons that inferences about the priesthood meaning superiority are not just wrong, they’re evil.
    I understand Kimberly’s concern, but I do think that children think with more nuance than simply: Men have the priesthood and women don’t- ergo, men are better and more loved by God than women.
    I like Paul’s comment about teaching moments. Are we talking to our kids about their attitudes? These aren’t particularly hard questions to ask. It’s not just the church’s attitudes and archetypes of masculinity and femininity that children need help processing. I think the models the media provides are probably even more damaging, and frequently go unaddressed.

    Comment by Brian — February 2, 2010 @ 1:41 pm

  68. Thanks, ECS.

    Comment by Brian — February 2, 2010 @ 1:42 pm

  69. The OP makes me think of the second lesson in Gospel Principles manual. It is entitled “Our Heavenly Family”, yet has no explicit reference to Heavenly Mother. It has rather two implicit references to Her in the phrase ‘heavenly parents’ (which interestingly gets the Father getting the de-capitalized treatment, perhaps to avoid Capitalizing the Mother’s existence.)

    I wrote about my impressions of the situation on my personal blog, largely summed up in the idea that the title of the lesson and the lesson itself leaves Heavenly Mother as the elephant in the corner of the room. We use/need Her for our theology, but 171 years after Joseph first restored our knowledge of Her, we haven’t advanced in knowledge at all.

    Comment by Ignorant Sage — February 2, 2010 @ 2:18 pm

  70. I like your comment Brian.

    Comment by jks — February 2, 2010 @ 2:18 pm

  71. Thanks Amy! I really enjoyed that talk.

    Comment by britt — February 2, 2010 @ 2:31 pm

  72. Thanks, JKS.
    Sorry, one more comment-
    My wife’s patriarchal blessing says she will do a great work for her Mother in Heaven. I assume that means there is yet a great work to be done for her. I love that.

    Comment by Brian — February 2, 2010 @ 2:31 pm

  73. Love hearing about the patriarchal blessing Brain :) thanks for sharing it. I wonder how the patriarch reacted to that when he gave it… with wonder or with confusion… hmmm

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 2:46 pm

  74. lol Brian i meant… grrrr typos

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 2:47 pm

  75. Thank you for all the great comments. Welcome, Sean.

    I think I am realizing that I just need to start talking to my boys about women in the church more. Just like with sex and racism and every other “hard” topic. I mean, I do stuff like point out all the women in the scriptures and talk over their contributions as we go through our reading. I point stuff out when I get the chance. But, I need to be more pro-active.

    Re jks 50 - If someone would have asked me if God loved boys more than girls at any point up until I went through the temple (at age 21), I would have emphatically answered NO. It wasn’t on my radar at all. I guess I didn’t really think of it. Come to think of it, my mom did a pretty decent job with me. She was a SAHM until my dad left us. But, she ingrained in me from a young age to go to college. In particular, she taught me not to drop out after marriage like she did. She always told me to wait until after graduate school to get married. I got married before, but I still went. Her messages sunk in. And my dad was even one of those sexist jerks.

    Emily U, we had that same conversation with my kids last week. They seem to be worried about one or both of us dying because we talk about it EVERY DAY. We told them that we have a lot of life insurance on both mom and dad (the exact same amount) so that if dad dies, mom can continue to stay home to care for them, and if mom dies, then dad can either stop working to stay at home to take care of them (for a while anyways because I think he’d go nuts) or pay someone else to do all the work that mom does.

    JC, I love your son’s mind. It reminds me of when I went through the temple with my baby brother his first time. When we got into the celestial room, he asked, “Where was Heavenly Mother?”

    Speaking of my brothers, I do think that I’ve been very influential in their lives. I’m the oldest, and I paved my way through my Master’s Degree on my own and basically was completely independent as soon as I finished high school. As each one has graduated from high school, they’ve called me to help them walk through the steps (same with after their missions). They are all very egalitarian with their wives/girlfriends (except maybe one, but there are other circumstances that contribute to that). I do think that having a big sister who’s a bit of a spitfire has helped them and have been a bit sad for my own boys that they haven’t had that. Of course they have me as a mom, but they didn’t know me in “my day”. At some point I’ll be able to do more outside of wiping their butts and feeding their faces every second of every day. Maybe I’ll get a chance to model a few more things then.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 2, 2010 @ 3:37 pm

  76. Brian, great points. We tease a lot in our family and tend to have a pretty good sense of humor. My husband in particular likes to give me a hard time about my feminist streak (all in good fun). I can totally picture him saying something like “because girls aren’t as good as boys” with a glean in his eye and then me laughing and pinching his butt because I know he’s just being a pest. My 9 year old is a smart kid and likes to tease me a lot, so I bet I overreacted a bit. I bet he was just trying to get my goat (it worked).

    Comment by Stephanie — February 2, 2010 @ 3:42 pm

  77. Another touching OP at FMH. I read as many of the comments as I could. I don’t have time for careful thoughtful stuff today. But I wanted to give Sean a pat on the back (or a high five or whatever is appropriate for a young man) for his cheerful post at #32, and after thinking about it I believe I agree with him on one point that he made. IIRC He said that he thought men had the priesthood to keep them in line. While I wouldn’t use those precise terms, I have long thought that the priesthood being restricted to men in this life has a lot to do with the growth and development of men, giving them work of real consequence to learn service.

    And it’s good for him to wonder where and what and who is our Heavenly Mother. In the nearly complete absence of doctrine about her, it naturally leads to speculation, and the speculative premise that she is being protected from worldly mockery might be true, or it might not be true. We surely don’t know. All we know for sure is that we are separated from her about as completely as we can be.

    This post made me feel the weight of this burden more than anything else I have read lately. It is a hard topic for which we simply don’t have any doctrinal answers. But I find inspiring the practical ways that people deal with it.

    Comment by Mommie Dearest — February 2, 2010 @ 4:05 pm

  78. 59 “He suggested that maybe she is a stay at heaven parent. Maybe earth stuff is Heavenly Father’s “job,” and She is in charge of preparing people to come here and takes care of them when they get back to heaven.”

    I LOVED this. What a thoughtful response from anyone, let alone a child.

    Comment by Lupita — February 2, 2010 @ 4:21 pm

  79. I hope to read all of the comments when children are asleep but briefly - we speak to our children of our Heavenly Parents. I can think of very few situations in which that phrase cannot be used in place of Heavenly Father and it helps me feel that we are doing more to include Her. When I’m teaching at church or giving talks I seek quotes that reference our eternal parents and I know in at least one case that was significant for an investigator at the meeting, that I spoke of Heavenly Father AND Mother.

    I agree that if we don’t speak of these more challenging topics with our children (race, gender, sexual relations, etc) that our children will learn of it from somewhere and we may not like what they hear. I would rather they be able to discuss it with their parents, first - not that I expect them to always agree with me but I want to get our views in before they are teenagers and just disagree with me for fun. :)

    Comment by heidelade — February 2, 2010 @ 4:37 pm

  80. 78: He has always seemed to be spiritually aware, and not afraid to ask questions and seek answers. I don’t see any problem with his ideas of HM. It sounds like a good way to spend eternity to me- sharing the work and getting the good parts almost all to myself.

    Of course, he also plans on making at least one earth with green people when he gets to the celestial kingdom and can create his own worlds. Alas, aliens have invaded my household.

    Comment by JC — February 2, 2010 @ 4:43 pm

  81. 67- Brian, I appreciate your outlook and suspect it’s the correct take on priesthood responsibility (and I do not argue with its value and I do believe men should have responsibility with regard to church duties)…yet, this model leaves so much room for unrighteous dominion and misinterpretation- not just by the kids but by the adults.

    If you are new, you of course are unaware that I personally already believe that women own our own priestesshood, which I’d love to see acknowledged in a much broader sense than temple ordinances. It also places us at the side of men, instead of under them…even if the duties are decidedly different.

    I know that there is no way to completely correct misogynistic interpretations of male PH holders (and plenty of the women, for whatever reason) but, even the Primary songs emphasize the PH for the males- our youngest boys are taught how important they are and the girls…they are what? Future wives? Future vessels? Obviously, with children who I sacrificed for to be home to raise (working 12 hr night shifts), I believe in the value of motherhood and fatherhood and being there for my children. When I was in the YW presidency, there were plenty of times the YM tossed off comments to the YW, “Well, you have to listen to me because I hold the PH”. Misguided rock heads or maybe just thinking they are funny? Surely…but, to me, it reflects the muddy waters in which we swim with this set up. I suspect that plenty of men push the more obnoxious views in the background, in order to not render themselves completely unappealing to women they’d like to date…but, what is under all that cultivated PH concern at times, when a woman disagrees and the male pulls rank? (And yes, in the end, he does have the rank…maybe not at home, but unquestionably at church).

    Comment by Kimberly — February 2, 2010 @ 4:43 pm

  82. I really loved the son’s theory in #59, too, Lupita. Wow.

    As some previous posters mentioned, I also was afraid to have girls. What a sad thought- girls become the undesired sex in a baby because we’re too afraid of how to raise them in a sexist world.

    Now I have two girls and a boy, and I worry every day about how to counter the church culture and the gender roles.

    That story about the patriarchal blessing gives me some hope. Maybe the work for our Heavenly Mother is to teach us about her. I’ve always wondered if the other scriptures we haven’t yet been blessed with will be less sexist. Maybe once we (as a church) can stop being so sexist, we’ll be blessed with further light and knowledge showing us just how stupid the sexism was.

    Comment by the milk (of the gospel) — February 2, 2010 @ 4:44 pm

  83. Oh, and I vote yes for the Seattle snacker, too!

    Comment by the milk (of the gospel) — February 2, 2010 @ 4:48 pm

  84. When I was in the YW presidency, there were plenty of times the YM tossed off comments to the YW, “Well, you have to listen to me because I hold the PH.”

    Ooh, Kimberly. A YM once said something along those lines to one of my YW. After a very passionate conversation with the girl, I approached the YM President pretty much with fire in my eyes. I’m pretty sure he addressed the topic in the next lesson.

    NOT cool.

    Comment by Natalie K. — February 2, 2010 @ 4:51 pm

  85. Dear Stephanie: Please, oh please, you must teach them the things that you think and believe. Don’t try to hide your opinions from them. Almost everything I learned about feminism and women’s issues I learned from my mother, who was strong and opinionated and we kids all loved her for it. Teach them that the prophets and apostles are not inerrant, even if they are preaching it as doctrine from the pulpit in General Conference, so that your boys don’t grow up believing so as so many kids do. God gives us all minds to think with, so let’s use them. And yes, at the very least “we don’t know” can be an answer, but telling them your opinion and that it isn’t necessarily “doctrine” is better than letting them pick up the strange false doctrines that abound in our lay church. At a recent youth fireside, my three teenage girls came home having been taught (and almost believing) that the whole women’s movement was the devil’s most perfect tactic in trickery ever. I had to sit them down and re-do the whole subject that very evening.

    Comment by kevinr — February 2, 2010 @ 4:51 pm

  86. I abhor the lame argument that we don’t know about HM because HF wants to protect her. When did a mother ever need to be “protected” from her children? If HM is a strong woman, I would think she WANTS to hear from us, to show herself to us, to be a sacred feminine role model for us. This (lack of) doctrine plus the polygamy issue are the ones I may leave the church over someday…if I’m brave enough. I just want my Mother at church; it feels motherless to me.

    Comment by Sherry — February 2, 2010 @ 5:40 pm

  87. Why don’t we just say we don’t say we don’t know on the HM thing? Why do we seek so strongly for reasons that we invent them?

    Comment by britt — February 2, 2010 @ 6:19 pm

  88. Nature abhors a vacuum?

    Comment by Mommie Dearest — February 2, 2010 @ 6:36 pm

  89. Lupita, #78 - that may be the wisest thing I’ve ever heard said on the matter.

    Comment by Natalee — February 2, 2010 @ 6:50 pm

  90. oh, and this is a convert perspective I guess, but I came from a rich and full exposure to all different kinds of christian faiths growing up (I was baptist, but spent time in catholic, lutheran, methodist, presbyterian, etc. environments). Anyhow - correct me if I’m wrong - but I don’t know of any other traditional christian faith who says anything at all about an HM. In fact, when I first heard about this doctrine I was a new member and freaked out at how strange it sounded to me. So it seems, in this one way at least, that the church is somewhat progressive (?) toward women just for having a belief that there is an HM in the first place.

    Comment by Natalee — February 2, 2010 @ 6:55 pm

  91. #85, kevinr - thank you. :)

    Comment by Lawyer Lady — February 2, 2010 @ 7:13 pm

  92. Stephanie, thanks so much for reading my comment! Thanks for your post as well.

    For Christmas, we received an annual Christmas letter from a past RS President and friend in a past ward. Even now, when I think of her, I seriously get the chills and tear up remembering her amazing example of Christlike love for others perfectly mixed with a beautiful love and respect for herself. I told my husband as we took turns reading her letter that of all the people I had ever known that she would make the best Heavenly Mother ever.

    Then, feeling genuinely puzzled, I looked into the distance and said, “Wait a minute, what do Heavenly Mothers do? What do they do?? I mean, what do Heavenly Mothers even do???” How could I be sure this amazing woman I know and love would be cut out for such a role… I have no idea of its job description.

    I was putting my 6 year old son to bed a while back and he said he just couldn’t fall asleep even though he had already prayed a bunch. I told him that he had a Heavenly Father and Mother and that maybe he could chat with them both. His face lit up with joy … and I realized I’d never mentioned Her to him before. He asked all sorts of questions about Her, but after telling him we didn’t actually have many details, I asked him what he hoped She was like. We talked for a while that night and he continues to bring Her up now and again since then. Sometimes we fantasize about returning to Her… or think about how much She must love us (because mommies love their kids pretty fiercely) and I think my son is so enriched for just thinking about possibilities. I like to imagine… and somehow, that makes it a little better (maybe for a 6 year old especially) because She can be whatever we want her to be.

    About 15 years ago, I had a dream where I was face to face with my Mother in Heaven. She was telling me of my own worth and of her love for me. Upon waking, I was filled with the greatest confidence and peace I’d ever felt along with an amazing energy and clarity. For just a few moments, words from my dream circled in my mind and then vanished… so that even though I can’t remember the words or other details, I will never forget the message of love and the wonderful feelings that stayed with me long after.

    Comment by Ahhh... — February 2, 2010 @ 7:16 pm

  93. This post and all the comments are really interesting to me. I have three boys, and I’ve struggled with how to teach them my love for the gospel, but also to prepare them should they ever have questions or concerns. I’ve been hesitant to say too much because I don’t want to color their experience at a time where they are developing their testimonies.

    I asked them about girls and boys and the priesthood, obviously I’ve talked to them about that already, because they both said that boys having the priesthood doesn’t mean they’re better than girls. My 8-year-old said, “we’re equals!”.

    Then I asked if Heavenly Father was married, and they looked at me like I was crazy, and said, “NO!”

    Comment by Alliegator — February 2, 2010 @ 7:40 pm

  94. After we talked about Heavenly Mother for a little bit, they wanted to know what her name was.

    I said I didn’t know. But if we call Heavenly Father Heavenly Father or God, I guessed we’d call Heavenly Mother Heavenly Mother of Goddess. (My 8-year-old liked that and said, “It’s just like in Percy Jackson and the Olympians!”)

    :)

    Comment by Alliegator — February 2, 2010 @ 7:43 pm

  95. Thank you for this post Stephanie. As a mother to 3 boys and no girls, you’ve voiced my fears perfectly. My oldest is 9 and it occurred to me recently that I am his only female example in the home. Sure he has female teachers in school and at church, but in the home, I am it. And while I’m sure I would feel that same pressure if I had daughters, the thing that worries me is that boys really do look up to their dads more and tend to have this, almost natural, “boys are better” attitude. Maybe it’s because there are so many of them in my household (even the stupid dog is male, and one of my sons insisted he couldn’t like a girl dog!) There have already been lots of comments insinuating that Dad is stronger and smarter… “we need Dad to do this, or Dad could do it better, or only Dad would know this”, etc…
    It doesn’t help that my boys seem to only be interested in things their dad can do, most of which are things I can’t help them with so it does appear I don’t know anything. (or anything that they would deem worth knowing). And it doesn’t help that he really is much smarter. And stronger. Ugh, I need to stop now.

    Anyway, a very long way of saying I know exactly what you mean and I struggle to find a way to teach my sons that what I do is important, and the things I am good at are not “lesser” than their fathers simply because it doesn’t involve power tools, and to never, never, never believe they are better than a woman simply because of their male status.

    Comment by Bewitched — February 2, 2010 @ 7:46 pm

  96. Women always seem to need to prove themselves. It’s not necessary. Women carry a huge load in this life. Women can be anything they want to be.

    Comment by henry — February 2, 2010 @ 8:06 pm

  97. How do I avoid that? How do I continue to live my life in the way that I feel is right for me and my family without causing my sons to draw erroneous conclusions (which aren’t even that erroneous because most every other LDS boy is apparently drawing the same conclusion)? How do I teach egalitarianism when I am modeling traditionalism? Is it possible?

    I think it’s entirely possible to model and teach egalitarian values while being a SAHM… there’s nothing inherently anti-woman, anti-feminist or anti-egalitarian about looking after your family if that is your free and personal choice.

    However, I’m not very sure about teaching and modeling feminist and egalitarian values and ethics within the patriarchal structure of your church.

    A patriarchy is a patriarchy is a patriarchy and, try as you might, you can not polish a turd. Patriarchies are the enemy of women, feminism and egalitarianism.

    Comment by barmy stoat — February 2, 2010 @ 8:39 pm

  98. you can not polish a turd

    snort…LOL…love it.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 2, 2010 @ 8:48 pm

  99. ——you can not polish a turd—-

    What if it’s fossilized?
    I know some old turds that could use a spin in the rock polisher.

    Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — February 2, 2010 @ 9:00 pm

  100. Mythbuster did that! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI hehe

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 9:48 pm

  101. So the fact remains… you can polish a turd… it’s how to do it that is the question ;D

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 9:51 pm

  102. Haha! I stand corrected (and slightly grossed out)!

    Thanks for that April! :-)

    Comment by barmy stoat — February 2, 2010 @ 9:58 pm

  103. OMIGOSH I’m sorry I called Sean out on his sexism. I’ll try to remember that being 18 gets you a free pass to say any old crazy thing you want and you get rewarded for it. I’m sure if Martin or Mike H. said it, you guys would be all up on their butts calling them out. I’m so rolling my eyes. And my second comment was a freaking joke people. I was trying to make light of the situation.

    Comment by Risa — February 2, 2010 @ 10:06 pm

  104. #47 - I only know how to knee-jerk react to stupid. And for the record, my 18 year old brother knows better than to make such outlandish generalized statements regarding the genders.

    Comment by Risa — February 2, 2010 @ 10:09 pm

  105. Not knowing all the feminist nuisances is not a crime Risa. I would have said almost the exact same thing as him only 3 years ago and I’m almost 30. Granted, my eyes should have been opened sooner, but everyones life and circumstances are different. Being open to educating him instead of cursing him out would be more likely to open his eyes… I think you merely reacted that way cause he is MALE, which is hypocritical coming from a self proclaimed feminist.

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 10:16 pm

  106. Nope, I would say the same thing to an 18 year old girl. I have said that same thing to women who assert that women are naturally more righteous than men, therefore men need the priesthood to get them out of their self-centered lives. You must know me pretty well to make such grandiose assumptions about me.

    Comment by Risa — February 2, 2010 @ 10:22 pm

  107. I need to backtrack on one of my statements. It’s been bothering me all night. In comment #75, I said that someday my kids will know me outside of just caring for them. But, caring for them IS noble, important work. And that’s really the message I want them to get. It’s important work, and it is going to be their work, too. That’s the whole point of egalitarianism, right?

    I loved your comment, Bewitched. We are kindred sisters (and Lupita, too). There is something about having a whole slew of boys that is just . . . hard.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 2, 2010 @ 10:27 pm

  108. I have read most of your comments and have bit my tongue because of the brash and insensitive way you deal with people. You are like a bull in a china shop. If you expect empathy to be given to you, I suspect the best way to make that happen is to extend it to others. Recognize that no every 18 year old has a feminist in his family, that many live in the “mormon bubble” and such views are not talked about often… he is merely saying what has been taught to him and what he has been exposed to. Not shame on him, shame on those around him for making it easy for him to not notice that there are people (mostly women) who are offended by the things he just stated. Now lets help him open his eyes and not scare him off and make him think feminists are a bunch of bitches that go rabid when you leave one innocent comment that only states how you see things…. be that right or wrong.

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 10:32 pm

  109. Bull in a China shop? Yep, pretty much. Most passionate people are obnoxious.

    My brother grew up with 5 feminists in his immediate family. My mother, my FATHER, my sister, myself, and himself. Mormon bubble? We grew up in Ogden, Utah. You don’t get more Mormon bubble than that (okay, you can, but Utah county is only an hour and a half away).

    If I just say that you’re right, will you stop trying to prove how right you are about me? You’re right April, I’m a horrid, awful, uncompassionate, unempathetic, judgmental, bad person. You’re right. Even IF all those things were true about me, I still have the right to express my opinion on this blog. And honestly, I care so little about what you think of me that I’m ending it right here. Whether you choose to respond is your business. But I’m going to leave the rest of the thread to people who actually want to discuss what Stephanie wrote about and not read a pissing contest between two bloggers.

    Comment by Risa — February 2, 2010 @ 10:40 pm

  110. I don’t think that you are a “horrid, awful, uncompassionate, unempathetic, judgmental, bad person.” I just think you could use more tact.

    And I never said you didn’t have a right to your opinion, you do. I just said you might be a little more empathetic in the way you state them. Passionate doesn’t equate to being careless with others feelings.

    If you notice, Sean hasn’t come back. I find that a shame. I wish we could have some dialog regarding Stephanie’s post with him. IE How he first found out about Heavenly Mother, if he even remembers it. It would be nice to know given the stories that many have told about conversations with their kids on the topic.

    I guess in summation I just wish more people would get away from the mindset of “I’m open minded, but since you don’t agree with me … you must be stupid. O.o”

    I’m not saying you are this way, just that too many people are and that is what made me “knee jerk” to you.

    I’m sorry if you were offended, like you, I call it like I see it.

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 10:53 pm

  111. 59- your son’s sentiments are very touching and made me cry. Thank you!

    73-I am Brian’s wife and it is in my patriarchal blessing that talks about my Mother in Heaven. From knowing my patriarch and being friends with his wonderful daughters, I do not think he was at all confused. I loved the link posted here from A Reason for Hope about the talk that was given about Her. My husband and I were further talking about how much it makes sense to have God be male and female. I very much feel a part of my husband’s priesthood and know that relationship will further grow and expand. I think about the great example my dad was in his priesthood. When he served as a Bishop, he was very bothered that the Bishop was served the sacrament first. He felt that Christ would have waited until everyone else was first served. He also taught me to discern between the church’s cultural and the gospel. We know we are a peculiar people, and peculiar people can be weird.

    Slightly off the topic: thinking about comment 90, we are currently attending a great ward (we spend a lot of time on the road so we get to see a lot of different wards). We had a lovely Sunday School lesson a couple of Sundays ago, taught by a Women’s Studies professor. She mentioned that she has shared our LDS view of Mother Eve with her classes and to her non-LDS students, they find our view to be very empowering.

    Comment by Ann — February 2, 2010 @ 10:54 pm

  112. re 59 I actually blogged about your sons comment. I think his ideas are beautiful and I’m adopting them :)

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 10:59 pm

  113. re 111 thanks for trying to answer my musings about his reaction to giving your blessing. :) I love that he was the type of patriarch that could give that blessing and then not be confused by it.

    Comment by April — February 2, 2010 @ 11:03 pm

  114. My husband and I were further talking about how much it makes sense to have God be male and female.

    This is something I think a lot about, too. I’ve said it before on FMH that I think God in the creation story is really both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother because it just makes sense to me that She would have the creative power of the two (I deduce this from the fact that women on earth have the ability to create life).

    After reading your comment, I have another thought (not fully formed). I wonder if we are just totally not getting it as mortals - that “God” is both Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, and our objective is to become one with our spouses to become “God”. It doesn’t explain why we talk just about Heavenly Father and why only Heavenly Father appears in the scriptures (and to Joseph Smith, etc.) but I like the idea of becoming one with my husband.

    I also appreciate those of you pointing out that the Mormon church is one of the only churches to recognize a Heavenly Mother at all. I find that too often I get so caught up in my frustrations and negativity that I fail to appreciate how much light and truth we have. And I wonder if our not knowing more about Heavenly Mother is more a reflection on the rest of society/culture/religion than it is on our own doctrine.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 2, 2010 @ 11:30 pm

  115. This is a fantastic post, Stephanie, but I found it depressing and terrifying. Our children aren’t absorbing all of our adult rationalizations and evasions. They see that the emperor has no clothes; they understand what we adults never have the courage to admit explicitly: that at every level women are second-class citizens in this church. (Actually, even calling us “citizens” is quite a stretch.)

    I can put up with the church for myself, most weeks, for the most part. But considering what it will do to my daughter’s understanding of who she is makes me more tempted than anything else to take off running. It makes me absolutely sick, and furious, what our church teaches girls and boys about their relative worth, their importance, their capacity.

    Comment by ZD Eve — February 2, 2010 @ 11:44 pm

  116. Contrary to belief, men and women do very little if anything “naturally” beyond self-preservation. We are simply products of cultural norming and live within those confines by fear and choice. Gendering is a verb. We “girl” the girls and “boy” the boys.. whether it fits the individual spirit or not…just ask anyone who is gay.

    Comment by robert — February 3, 2010 @ 12:45 am

  117. Stephanie, as far as God encompassing both the male and female deities i have to agree with you. As did the Apostle Erastus Snow.

    “Apostle Erastus Snow also used indirect inference in explaining the logic of the Heavenly Mother concept:

    Now, it is not said in so many words in the Scriptures, that we have a Mother in heaven as well as a Father. It is left for us to infer this from what we see and know of all living things in the earth including man. The male and female principle is united and both necessary to the accomplishment of the object of their being, and if this be not the case with our Father in heaven after whose image we are created, then it is an anomaly in nature. But to our minds the idea of a Father suggests that of a Mother.16

    Snow’s position was somewhat distinct from those of other Mormon leaders in that he described God as a unity of male and female elements, much like the Shakers’ Father-Mother God:

    “What,” says one, “do you mean we should understand that Deity consists of man and woman?” Most certainly I do. If I believe anything that god has ever said about himself, and anything pertaining to the creation and organization of man upon the earth, I must believe that Deity consists of man and woman … there can be no god except he is composed of the man and woman united, and there is not in all the eternities that exist, nor ever will be, a God in any other way … There never was a God, and there never will be in all eternities, except they are made of these two component parts; a man and a woman; the male and the female.17″

    This is from http://www.signaturebookslibrary.org/women/chapter1.htm#Heaven a website that I often reference when thinking about my Heavenly Mother and all that goes with it. You may find it intriguing :)

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 12:45 am

  118. Stephanie,

    I haven’t had time to read the comments, but these are good questions. I have a daughter who has feminism sort of wired into her (I didn’t believe it was possible before she could talk. Now I do.) I have been grateful to be able to talk openly and directly with her and my other children about these things. We do so repeatedly, because I believe it’s important to learn to separate out assumptions (based only on what may appear via what we see) from truth (based on what we learn through the spirit). In the process, I believe they can learn not only truths about these important topics, but also about how to discern truth in other areas. The fruits of truth are sweet and they can learn to sort through things to test their perceptions.

    In my view, that is both a practical as well as a spiritual skill. For example, to come to the conclusion, “Well, I guess girls aren’t as good as boys” won’t feel good. It also doesn’t make sense; it doesn’t gel with what we know of God. It also isn’t consistent at all with prophetic teachings. They can come to understand that and sift through ideas in that way, testing not just how they feel, but against what they already know and what we are taught through prophets.

    And even if you struggle still, my suggestion is hold onto hope and faith in those things. Study and lean on the prophets’ words on these topics and let the prophets teach them if you aren’t sure yet what to say. Be familiar with those words and quote them often. My experience is there is power and peace in parenting when I lean on and teach w/ their words. I think that is a foundation to working through any other questions…helping them trust in those words and feel their power.

    And my experience is that as I do that, my own faith and conviction about these truths grows. The Spirit testifies as I teach in faith, even when I don’t fully understand something. It’s the Alma thing — even if you can only desire to believe, let that work within you and them.

    This is a thoughtful post. Bless you for your desires to teach them and to press forward in faith even as you aren’t sure about it all. Hugs.

    p.s. A fave article of mine that talks a little about Heavenly Mother on lds.org is by Sister Holland. Her thoughts on patterns in all things to me was insightful. fwiw.

    Comment by m&m — February 3, 2010 @ 4:43 am

  119. I don’t think we should make judgements about our worth or talents or whatever based on our responsibilities or division of labor.

    Excellent, friend. Bingo. Truth. Right there. Backed up by prophetic teaching. Yup. Teach them like that, help them see through the mortal measures of ‘equality’ and see and understand that there is more to it than that in God’s plan.

    (No, I don’t have strong feelings about this or anything….) ;)

    Comment by m&m — February 3, 2010 @ 4:44 am

  120. It makes me absolutely sick, and furious, what our church teaches girls and boys about their relative worth, their importance, their capacity.

    at every level women are second-class citizens in this church. (Actually, even calling us “citizens” is quite a stretch.)

    Eve, I’m gonna push back here. The church doesn’t teach these things. In fact, it teaches quite the opposite. *You* and others who share these views are teaching these things through your interpretations. Listen, I ache that you ache so much about these things, but your perceptions are the source, not the church, and especially not the doctrine. The doctrine is so far from what you are saying here.

    What should we teach our children? The plan of salvation. *All* the plan of salvation and our doctrine is focused on pointing us to Christ, to the opportunity men AND women have to be saved through Him, to receive ALL that God has — eternal life and exaltation — through the blessings of the ordinances of salvation…all of which are available to women as well as men. Women are partners in those blessings. The eternal blessings are sealed upon BOTH (and ONLY both).

    At some level, it all boils down to that. That is what Mormonism is all about at the core. Who does what at church on Sunday or in the church structure is not the end or measure of our worth. Not even close.

    Paraphrasing what Stephanie said (although I’m being more blunt), we have got to stop equating equality with parity of tasks. It’s a dead-end road that can easily lead to feeling “absolutely sick, and furious” because it misses the core of the gospel: Christ and the hope of eternal life (eternal family life) through Him.

    Comment by m&m — February 3, 2010 @ 5:19 am

  121. m&m, when I made my initial comment referred to in the OP, I was referring to the idea that boys might infer for themselves the reason why men have more power and leadership in the church, which in my experience has always been that “men are better than women.” I also said that they would hear better reasons later… because there are better reasons for differing roles between men and women in the church and in life… than just that boys are better than girls.

    The problem is that this initial reasoning isn’t always abandoned on a deep level as boys become men and it has the potential to cause problems in later relationships with true intimacy, because some men never come to believe any woman could truly be his equal. I’ve seen numerous troubled LDS marriages where men seriously can’t connect and treat women with respect because they think they are, for lack of a better word, better than women. In my experience, it really is an LDS phenomenon… perpetuated by the way the church operates.

    I can deal with the church the way it is, because I am motivated to really find a resolution… but I am a woman. Some men might not be so motivated, probably because the way the church is set up doesn’t make them question their value and contribution the same way it does women. There would be less of an impact on a man’s self esteem and concept… and less suffering would equal less motivation to really search for answers that would replace those earliest, misguided, and uninformed (self formulated) reasons for why the hierarchy of the church seems to favor men.

    There are plenty of men and women who never hear or understand the many “better” reasons for the church’s hierarchy and differing roles of men and women, many of which you listed so well. For those people who never question or cannot find deeper, better reasons for the obvious inequality, I could totally see that they would perceive that the church is teaching boys and girls very differently of their worth, importance, and capacity (post #115)… and that the church leadership as a whole is blind to the injustice and suffering the hierarchy causes girls… and women.

    Comment by Ahhh... — February 3, 2010 @ 8:30 am

  122. I’m gonna push back here. The church doesn’t teach these things. In fact, it teaches quite the opposite. *You* and others who share these views are teaching these things through your interpretations. Listen, I ache that you ache so much about these things, but your perceptions are the source, not the church, and especially not the doctrine. The doctrine is so far from what you are saying here.

    m&m - this is factually inaccurate. The Church excludes women from participating in key religious rituals and forbids them from holding powerful leadership positions open only to men. Eve and I and many other people who notice the absence of women passing the sacrament every Sunday and the absence of women participating in blessings of their own children get the very clear message the women are not fit to participate in these important religious rituals. That women are excluded is not just a matter of perception. It is a fact.

    Comment by ECS — February 3, 2010 @ 8:53 am

  123. There are plenty of men and women who never hear or understand the many “better” reasons for the church’s hierarchy and differing roles of men and women, many of which you listed so well.

    Yes, our m&m is eloquent and one of the best examples of the best intentions of our faith. I still haven’t heard a “better” reason for the sexist practices of our church. But, I always give m & m her due…an A+ for effort. I always factor in her input but it always comes down to what is actually done versus what is said, because that is reality. The rest is “a spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down…in the most delightful way”.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 3, 2010 @ 9:04 am

  124. There is no ritual a women cannot partake of…that is the necessary thing. You don’t need to baptize to go to heaven, you need to be baptized.

    You can take whatever message you want from it, and the messanger will stand baffled…sometimes we see what we are not things as they really are.

    If it were Jesus passing the sacrament would you be mad he was a man?

    We do need to carefully teach and thread out justifications for an unknown…The church itself does not teach a reason for men having the priesthood and women not-we must not assume one, allow a false reason to be taught, or take offense where there is none.

    Comment by britt — February 3, 2010 @ 9:17 am

  125. Study and lean on the prophets’ words on these topics and let the prophets teach them if you aren’t sure yet what to say. Be familiar with those words and quote them often.

    We do need to carefully teach and thread out justifications for an unknown…The church itself does not teach a reason for men having the priesthood and women not-we must not assume one, allow a false reason to be taught, or take offense where there is none.

    Good points. There really isn’t much I can do about women not holding the priesthood (and as I’ve said before, the fact that women don’t doesn’t bother me as much as the fact that it is interpreted to mean so many things that aren’t true, particularly by men). But, there is A LOT I can do regarding culture and treatment of women and the false interpretations. So, maybe it would be good to focus my energies on areas where I can make a difference so that I don’t always feel like I’m beating my head into a wall.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 3, 2010 @ 11:07 am

  126. I’m not sure what “false interpretations” there are regarding the prohibition of a woman to participate in her own baby’s blessing other than God considers her prayers less effective than her husband’s.

    Comment by ECS — February 3, 2010 @ 11:17 am

  127. ECS, I think that any interpretation that men are better than women or women are inferior to men or something along those lines would be a “false interpretation” of why things are the way they are.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 3, 2010 @ 11:25 am

  128. If one of my sons were to say, “Mom, why didn’t you help bless the baby? Is it because God doesn’t listen to your prayers like he listens to Dad’s?”, I would consider that a false interpretation and correct him.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 3, 2010 @ 11:27 am

  129. Stephanie - what would you say to correct him? The question isn’t really whether God listens to your prayers. The question is why God only accepts your husband’s public prayers over your public or non-public prayers.

    Comment by ECS — February 3, 2010 @ 11:33 am

  130. Well, first, a blessing isn’t just a public prayer. I give public prayers all the time (why women don’t give conference prayers is a more applicable comparison, IMO). So, to correct my son, I would likely say, “Giving a blessing requires the priesthood and mom doesn’t hold the priesthood” and that just leads back to why don’t women hold the priesthood, for which I don’t have a good answer.

    If he were to ask me why women don’t give conference prayers, I don’t know. I ask DH that every conference and am always puzzled by it because it doesn’t require the priesthood to give a prayer. I am betting that we’ll see a change in that soon (I hope).

    So, to sum, my lame response is always “I don’t know. But it doesn’t mean boys are better than girls”.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 3, 2010 @ 11:43 am

  131. ECS, if you had a son (or daughter) who asked that, how would you answer him/her?

    Comment by Stephanie — February 3, 2010 @ 11:45 am

  132. So, to sum, my lame response is always “I don’t know. But it doesn’t mean boys are better than girls”.

    Is this a lame response? Because this seems to be all we’re getting from our leaders to justify excluding women from blessing their babies (along with many other non-priesthood functions as you mentioned). If it _is_ a lame response, shouldn’t there be an official non-lame response to this question?

    (not interrogating you - just very interested in your thoughts about this)

    Comment by ECS — February 3, 2010 @ 11:48 am

  133. I do have a son, and I’m currently in the process of formulating an answer that’s respectful and honest. Haven’t come up with one yet.

    Comment by ECS — February 3, 2010 @ 11:49 am

  134. I’m interested in your thoughts, too, ECS, so when you come up with a better answer, let me know. :)

    Comment by Stephanie — February 3, 2010 @ 11:51 am

  135. I grew up with a mother who was dyslexic and never good with “book smarts.” On the other hand, my dad has an IQ of 185. Just from this discrepancy, I grew up thinking that men were smarter than women, and that’s why women stayed home with the babies. I had fully accepted this role and, as a result, had no interest in school or going to college.

    In 7th grade I gained a boyfriend who, while LDS, had a mother who had PhD in mathematics and taught at the local university. This boy had very different views about what women can do, and encouraged me to get better grades in school. With very little effort I went from a C student to an A student, and eventually went on to college. What a difference that boy and his mother made in my life!

    Even though I am now a SAHM, I hope that the fact that I have a degree but do not currently use it will help them understand that being a SAHM is a choice for the benefit of my family and because it is a commandment, and not because women are inferior to men. I appreciate that the General Authorities now encourage women to get as much education as possible, and I think this will go a long way to teach our children about the equality of the sexes.

    Comment by Lauren — February 3, 2010 @ 11:53 am

  136. Stephanie - When my son gets a little older (he’s two years old), any private answer I give to my son will include a discussion of how Church leaders sometimes make mistakes that hurt many, many people - contrary to God’s will (maybe throw in some Bible stories and discuss blacks in the priesthood).

    That said, I believe the Church bears the burden to justify the exclusion of women, not the other way around. So far, I haven’t been impressed with the Church’s answers, but I do want to be respectful of our leaders. Even when I think they’re wrong.

    Comment by ECS — February 3, 2010 @ 12:03 pm

  137. Lauren, a SAHM being a commandment seems well, Thou shalt not kill or be a working Mother outside the home.:) I think it does depend on the family and there are exceptions, which make it impossible for a women to keep that “commandment”. And as time goes on the concept of how many children are dependent on the family and God. I am getting a education so I can work. I also KNOW from personal revelation from the Lord I am not breaking a commandment!!!!!

    Comment by CZ — February 3, 2010 @ 12:37 pm

  138. I listened to an 8 year-old boy whose mother I adore tell the Primary President that girls don’t get the priesthood because they are “weak.” The poor PP looked horrified and I almost drop-kicked the boy.

    Comment by Eris — February 3, 2010 @ 12:38 pm

  139. Lauren, And we have the money and the resources for me to stay home. And the exceptions are not always because someones Husband is sick, Can’t work, or get education. And no I don’t think I am told to go get a education and job from the Lord because my Husband is going to die.

    Comment by CZ — February 3, 2010 @ 12:45 pm

  140. Being a SAHM is not a commandment. It is a suggestion, just like avoiding caffeine is a suggestion. It’s not required, and honestly sometimes it’s better ignored. (such as when being a working mom is better for everyone because otherwise that same great mom would be a puddle of depression due to not being built for that kind of monotony even if it is sometimes rewarding. Or like when a doctor tells you to consider caffeine to treat a physical irritant.)

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 12:56 pm

  141. I work for the church and I highly doubt that they would hire mothers, like me, if it was a commandment to be a SAHM. I think the church recognizes that it’s not possible in all families to have a stay-at-home-parent. Also, some women, like me, need to work at least a part-time job to keep their sanity.

    Comment by Risa — February 3, 2010 @ 12:59 pm

  142. I can honestly say that my sister is a better mother because she works outside the home. Every person functions differently and to say that being a SAHM is a commandment fails to take that into account. If it were a commandment I would not be surprised if suicide rates among women would skyrocket. And this from a SAHM by choice.

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 1:31 pm

  143. Stephanie, thank you so much for your thoughtful post. As the mother of a young daughter, this disconnect between words and actions is something I’m really concerned about. No matter how much my husband and I tell her men and women are equal, it’s not what she will observe at church, or when she reads the scriptures, or if she goes to the temple. My husband and I both have satisfying careers that allow us to provide for our family and to grow professionally, and we both enjoy spending as much time as possible as a family and caring for our daughter. In our home, I think our daughter’s perception will be that we are equal partners in every aspect of our lives (and for the record, I think it would be possible for her to have that same perception if one of us were a stay-at-home parent). But won’t that make the disconnect even greater in her mind? If she sees her mom in positions of authority and responsibility in the workplace and then answering to men at church?

    I thought about that this week when a member of the bishopric randomly called a meeting of the Primary presidency (which includes me) on a weeknight, at 8:00 pm, which is bedtime for each of our children. We had just had a presidency meeting (without him, as is customary) last week. There was nothing we felt a need to further discuss, but we all dutifully went to the meeting. Do you know what he wanted to talk about? Cub scouts, of which there are 3 in our ward, none of whom is particularly interested in the program. I came home so upset by the fact that this man was able to exercise his authority over us by making us go to this inconvenient meeting, that we were required to spend so much time talking about these three boys while there are a whole slew of 10- and 11-year old girls who need attention, and that we were called to task for not making the boys do their merit badges. Basically, in my opinion, this man is arrogant, inefficient, inconsiderate, and frankly not all that intelligent. If we were in any other setting but the church, I would have told him exactly what I thought of him and of the scouting program. As I drove home that night, I imagined myself stuck in a lifetime of Primary and YW and RS callings that require me to be at the beck and call of men like him, and it just really upset me. And I felt that it set a bad example for my daughter, for me to place this man’s silly meeting above our bedtime ritual, something that’s really special for our family.

    Anyway, I think your post was very appropriate, and I think we have to realize that no amount of rationalizing will wipe away our children’s observations of the inequality they see around them.

    Comment by Sofia — February 3, 2010 @ 2:04 pm

  144. Lauren, Im sorry. I understand what you are saying I just got offended by the wording you used. Have a great day!

    Comment by cz — February 3, 2010 @ 2:12 pm

  145. That women are excluded is not just a matter of perception. It is a fact.

    My point is that we can choose to focus on what women can’t do (which often if not usually leads to frustration), or focus on the bigger picture of the plan of salvation and how important what we do (nurture, serve, teach, lead, influence in various ways) and receive (ordinances, blessings, guidance from the Holy Ghost, blessings through the Atonement necessary for salvation) is in that path back to God — both for ourselves and others.

    I believe we have the responsibility to help our children (and ourselves) not focus so much on organizational differences but on the plan of salvation. This is not rationalization to me, it’s about seeking for gospel truth in navigating these things. The former (org charts) is not the measure of our worth. That worth transcends mortal measures and is found not through what we see, but by what we can know through the Spirit about who we are, why we are here, and the blessings –ALL that God has — that await us if we are faithful. At some point, I just say look, who does what now in the church is miniscule compared to what He is promising us…nevermind the fact that power is not just organizational in the plan of salvation. Not even close.

    My belief is if we can help our children know the gospel’s truth in the big picture, know of God’s reality, know the power available to them through ordinances, they can learn be ok with ‘we don’t know why this is the case’ on some of these questions. I don’t worry about these questions coming up (and they do and have), because to me, they aren’t the core of the gospel. I try to help my children understand and gain a testimony of that core, because to me that is everything.

    It’s also important to help them see that people are fallen, but the gospel is true. If a leader or a husband (or wife or female leader, for that matter) chooses unrighteous dominion, that doesn’t negate the doctrine of priesthood leadership or the truthfulness of the church and gospel. And I disagree that church leaders are unaware of the pain such unrighteousness causes.

    Comment by m&m — February 3, 2010 @ 3:38 pm

  146. Sofia (#143), I feel so awful for the night you lost with your kids! My mom was always so busy with church that all of us kids grew up really hesitant to be overly eager in church service. When I was a den leader in Cub Scouts, I went to all of those annoying meetings and came home angry and frustrated so often. I wish I would have been able to just say “no” to a meeting or two, the way I wished my mother would have put us first more often.

    The fact that you felt so angry is a sign that something should change… maybe you can’t tell Brother Cub Scouts what you really think, but you might be able to focus on your family (or the 10-11 year olds) when you want to and exclude some meetings when they conflict with what you really want, just by not being available to attend. I know it’s tricky defining limits like that, but it’s possible.

    Comment by Ahhh... — February 3, 2010 @ 7:58 pm

  147. #143 Sofia, I don’t understand why the Primary Pres. didn’t ask him what the meeting was about and recommend a better time. Or why you didn’t.

    No offense, but I don’t think that meeting is a good example of women subject to men. Start putting women in bishoprics, and you’ll still have your share of insensitive blowhards.

    Comment by Martin — February 3, 2010 @ 8:08 pm

  148. Stephanie, I just reread your OP and came across the part where you said that the priesthood is the power to act in God’s name. I’ve always heard that Heavenly Father’s name (Elohim) referred to more than one God (plural form of the Hebrew word)… so I assumed (actually I was told) it referred to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ… for instance in creating the world. But, Jesus had the premortal name of Jehovah, so perhaps Elohim refers to the combination of our Father and Mother in Heaven.

    If that is true, then acting in the name of our Father or Mother seems to be something that a man or woman could do. I think that until we can acknowledge our Mother in Heaven more openly, we won’t be assuming any power to act in Her name any time soon. But, I think it will happen. We just don’t seem very close to that yet.

    Thanks for your comments, ECS, especially for #136. Your confidence and outlook are inspiring.

    Comment by Ahhh... — February 3, 2010 @ 8:20 pm

  149. So is the problem our inability to say no, redirect the meeting or what? Why not schedule your own meeting and request the bishops presence and invite the activity day leaders there and cover the needs of the girls?

    Comment by britt — February 3, 2010 @ 8:43 pm

  150. #148 I don’t know about the word Elohim in Hebrew, but I know that the word Jehovah translates to the term “I Am” or “He is” these indicating in the Hebrew verbiage the eternal nature of his being…more literally meaning “I am (incomplete or unfinished)” Jehovah more accurately means I am forever or eternal.

    I learned this from a man that has lived much of his life in Jeruselam and both speaks and reads Hebrew. He also is a member of the LDS Church and studies religon. I love having intellegent discussion with him.

    Next time I see him I will ask him about the word Elohim… because you made me curious :)

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 9:12 pm

  151. I didn’t have time to read all the comments, but in response to the original post about the” dad going to work because he’s smarter”, I think that its so important that we teach our kids that taking care of them is not the job for the weaker or dumber or less educated member of the family. Running a household and taking good care of them can be made as demanding of a job as we want–personally, I love being educated on new topics, and so since having kids, I have read everything I can about how they grow, learn, can best be served by society and educational systems, etc. . . I feel like I’m basically earning my own self-determined masters degree in parenting. And I’m not going to let my kids think that taking care of them is the “dumb” thing to do. Depending on my husbands current job, mine can certainly be more physically demanding (right now it is) or more intellectually demanding (it probably isn’t right now, but has been in the past).

    I remember growing up wondering if my teachers would be disappointed if they heard someday that all I’d ended up doing was staying at home with kids. I wondered myself if I’d feel like I sold myself short, knowing that I really could have done anything I wanted. But I think that’s part of what is so sad about how we, as a general society, approach motherhood/parenthood. I’m reading a fantastic book right now, Maternal Desire, that delves into the subject of the natural desire of wanting to parent your children, and how it doesn’t have to turn into a sacrifice of giving up yourself and everything you love and want to do to parent–we can parent and bring ourselves, our interests and talents, into that job and our families (as well as ourselves) will be better off for it.

    We are both very educated people and make sure the kids know that I did go to college, have worked at different jobs, have differernt areas of expertise. I am also happy everytime my 5 year old daughter says something about how I go running several times a week and run races, or how she and I can lift weights together–she sees me being strong, and working my body, getting sweaty as well as taking time for myself while my husband stays at home with them.

    I think the main point to all this is that whatever our jobs are, we have to show our own respect for our chosen careers and try to make our kids aware of what it entails. It certainly helps if both parents can give that message as well.

    Comment by Kim — February 3, 2010 @ 10:03 pm

  152. Hi Stephanie! You are so wonderful to put your thoughts and questions out there for discussion. There are a LOT of comments here, so I hope you actually get to mine! I didn’t read them all, 100 or so, but I really liked #’s 118-120. ;) And I’m really surprised actually that not one person had an answer! It makes me sad that so many women are suffering.

    I, too, have suffered quite a lot. It’s a truth that we tend to see HF as we see our own father. Where this may not be the case for all the women who have posted here, my struggle and suffering came because my father was not faithful, extremely abusive, and abandoned me. I spent much of my life seeing HF in this way. Not believing that He loved me and being angry at him. I’m grateful for the healing that I’ve experienced in my life and have received revelation of my own in regards to these questions you are raising.

    I have received the answers you seek in my own personal revelation, but I’m not quite sure I’ll be able to put them into words.

    First, why don’t men or women ask, “Why can’t men have children?? It’s not fair!” Because the answer is simple. Men don’t have the parts! They physically can’t! There’s not a whole lot we can do about that!  What I love about the gospel is that it IS simple. WE as people twist and interpret it incorrectly or make it much more complicated than it is because of our own skewed views of the world. And we all have them! So, why can’t the answer about the priesthood be very similar? Because there’s something about men that wires them, emotionally, physically, spiritually, or whatever to have the priesthood in the same way that we are designed to bear children? We barely understand how the atonement works, how Christ did it, but we still believe in Him and in it. Just because we don’t understand God’s reasons behind it does not mean the church (and thereby God) is misogynistic.

    The same with “is my daughter supposed to believe that her only value is to grow up, get married, and have babies?” Why don’t we ask, “is my son supposed to believe that his only value is to grow up, get a job, and have the priesthood?” I’m sure you’ve seen the yin/yang sign. Both are equally important, and both have to be there to make a whole. That’s as far as I think egalitarianism should be taken. :) The way the world teaches egalitarianism is Satan’s plan. The way the world teaches it says, “we should all have the same things and that’s what makes us equal.” God’s plan says that we have different things that are valued equally. This is what the prophets and apostles are continually trying to have us understand.

    As women, we are naturally closer to God (have you noticed that little girls are almost ALWAYS daddy’s girls :) ?). Revelation comes easily to us. When we are pregnant we have an extra portion of the spirit and our closeness to God is magnified because we are working WITH Him to bring one of his spirits to this earth. What a HUGE blessing for us! I think we spend so much time disdaining the gift God has given us and wish we had what the men have, that we miss this crucial point. Why would we want the gift that we’ve been given AND the gift that men have been given? How sad that men don’t have the gift of carrying a child! But not really, they physically can’t, just like we can’t hold the priesthood.

    And it is a gift for men! Men NEED the priesthood to come home to their HF. Not because they aren’t as good as we are. They aren’t wired like we are. Just like we aren’t wired as they are. Did you know that girls get to go do baptisms simply because they’ve turned 12 yrs old and boys don’t? Boys have to receive the priesthood before they can go to the temple. They NEED that physical (though we can’t see it) connection to God so they can be closer to him also. Would we take that away from men? Are we so insecure in our womanhood that we need more than what we are given? What would we all do if HF said, “Okay. Here’s the priesthood.” and we all discover that it’s so NOT what we want?

    I believe the church keeps telling us that we are of GREAT value, that we are the HEARTS of the home, and all the wonderful things they say about us because we have SUCH a hard time hearing it!!

    As a side note, I would never wish to be the one to give my children a priesthood blessing. It’s one of the few ways that their fathers can connect with them in a similar way that we are already connected with them because we carried them inside our wombs and gave birth to them. I do not feel devalued because he holds the priesthood in the same way that he does not feel devalued because I bear children.

    One last side note Stephanie, you seem like you are in a REALLY good place to read a book called Bonds That Make Us Free. I would recommend it to anyone reading this post frankly. It is profound and will change the way you view the world!

    Comment by Jennifer — February 3, 2010 @ 10:37 pm

  153. re 152 “As women, we are naturally closer to God (have you noticed that little girls are almost ALWAYS daddy’s girls :) ?). Revelation comes easily to us. ”

    I have to say I don’t agree with this. My husband is more this way than I am. My daughter is a total mama’s girl and my eldest son is the thoughtful one.

    This is a blanket statement. I have real issues with blanket statements.

    I don’t fall into the cookie cutter mold. Often I wish I did, but I don’t… so where does that leave me? According to you I can never have the hope of having the priesthood so I will never be able to connect with God the way my husband does? That sucks hardcore. I would rather be agnostic than believe that way… at least then I can believe I have some hope of somehow becoming closer to deity. And believe me when I tell you I have tried…prayer, scripture, fasting, etc etc. I haven’t felt a close connection since I was a teenager, probably due to the constant pull of being a mother and seldom being able to focus fully on myself due to time restraints.

    I don’t want the Priesthood, believe it or not… I want my half of the Priestesshood. And if I already have that in some way, then I want it recognized so that that door that so many misogynistic people use can be closed a little bit and so that I can stop being so distracted by the perception that the Church just wants me around to reproduce.

    I dunno. Your opinion just doesn’t jive with me.

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 10:53 pm

  154. That being said, you are welcome to it. I will just hold my own completely apostate opinions to comfort me.

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 10:56 pm

  155. re 153: thanks for your comment! Have you ever considered that Priestesshood IS the ability to bear children and to be mothers? Why would you (meaning women) devalue that gift?

    Also, there are always exceptions, I should’ve said that and I’m sorry. It tends to be a general trend that girls are “daddy’s girls”. However, focusing on that one part of my post sortof misses the whole point of what I’m trying to say. :)

    This may not be the case with you, but I’ve found in my own life that when I’m not feeling close to God, and haven’t for a long time (and I did have that time!!!) it’s usually because I’m mad at him. And hurting about something that needs to be healed. And that is an okay place to be. As long as I have recognized it and found healing for myself (which is hard to do when you have to face things you don’t want to face), I gain that connection again. Again though, please know I’m not trying to pin that on you, it’s just my own experience and your comment reminded me of the times I’ve felt the same thing and how I was able to come out of it. :)

    Comment by Jennifer — February 3, 2010 @ 11:04 pm

  156. go easy. she’s new.

    Comment by mfranti — February 3, 2010 @ 11:05 pm

  157. I’m not mad at my Heavenly Parents… I’m confused by them. I would like to do as my children to to me and ask respectfully “why” and get at least a partial answer… it saddens me, it’s doesn’t anger me.

    and

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 11:09 pm

  158. oh… “and luv ya Mfranti!” was what the end was supposed to say.

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 11:11 pm

  159. I have a question for you…..If the Priestesshood is the ability to bear children then what is fatherhood? Chopped liver? Not trying to be snarky, just wondering how you reconcile it.

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 11:12 pm

  160. hi april! my comment was written before anyone had replied to her. i knew how it would be received.

    Comment by mfranti — February 3, 2010 @ 11:15 pm

  161. some daughters become “daddy’s girls” because daddy believes he has to protect, and coddle and treat her like she’s a princess. she’s not a really a person to him, but a thing to be protected. he’s not raising her to be his equal, like he would do with his sons, he’s teaching her submission to men.

    at least that’s what i’ve seen in my daughter’s life. ( i know this is a generalization)

    i don’t know that comparing our earthly daddy/daddy’s girl relationship with that of our HF is appropriate for this context.

    Comment by mfranti — February 3, 2010 @ 11:19 pm

  162. I figured mfranti. I remember being in the spot she is now… I used to fit into the mold, I just have grown into a different person now. I’m more aware that the Church given answers just don’t work for everyone, not because they are mad at God, but because they feel undervalued due to actions speaking louder than words as far as the Church goes.

    I’m not certain at this point that I can bear having my daughter brought up to be the eternal “follower/supporter” that the Church taught me to be throughout my childhood. I only hope I can reconcile things enough to keep the many beautiful things of this Church for my children and my family.

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 11:23 pm

  163. I only hope I can reconcile things enough to keep the many beautiful things of this Church for my children and my family.

    take comfort, sister, that you are not alone.

    Comment by mfranti — February 3, 2010 @ 11:26 pm

  164. Thanks…. it’s so nice to know.

    Crap! Mfranti, now you have me tearing up… :P lol

    Comment by April — February 3, 2010 @ 11:27 pm

  165. only hope I can reconcile things enough to keep the many beautiful things of this Church for my children and my family.

    I hope you can, too. We all have our struggles and questions in life. There are so many beautiful things, though, too.

    Thoughts re: fatherhood. Who and what is God as an eternal King and Priest but a Father, first? It would follow, then, imo, that a Queen and Priestess would be a Mother, first. His work and glory is a family focus. That’s really it, that is Godhood.

    But being a mother, a nurturer — I think ‘mother of all living’ — is much, much more than just reproducing. In fact, if we limited women’s impact only to bearing children, we miss a huge portion of what we are taught about the power and influence women have (and negate all the women who don’t have that opportunity in this life, which our prophets are deliberate about not doing).

    Even institutionally, who is it that leads the children and has primary (no pun intended) in their lives in the Church? Guiding the rising generation is presided over by women. Raising the rising generation is primarily the women’s role (of course men help, too) in the home as well. What is God’s work if not helping bring His children back to Him? And that can unfold in many other ways in our roles at home, in the church, the community, in our neighborhoods, and professions where so inspired. Women matter so much in God’s plan to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

    Comment by m&m — February 3, 2010 @ 11:57 pm

  166. m&m
    You wrote, “Women matter so much in God’s plan to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”

    Just once, maybe, I’d like women to be enough to God that he’d care about their immortality and life.

    Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — February 4, 2010 @ 1:42 am

  167. ’d like women to be enough to God that he’d care about their immortality and life.

    I assume you meant mortality and life, yah?

    You and I both know that we have very different feelings about how God feels about women in mortality, too.

    Comment by m&m — February 4, 2010 @ 1:56 am

  168. m&m
    I think everyone has their own thoughts and feelings.
    I admit bringing about the eternal life of man ain’t nearly as important to me than bringing about the eternal life of woman
    I’d like to see sec 132 jettisoned. What an appealing view of the hereafter, if I’m a really good girl I get to be a concubine and bear male children.(or do I get to be a lady and serve herbal tea and crumpets in the parlor assisted by my telestial servants?)

    Maybe this life and the life after, both men and women can be a little bit more than being reduced to stereotypes about gender roles and breeding expectations.

    Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — February 4, 2010 @ 2:24 am

  169. And that can unfold in many other ways in our roles at home, in the church, the community, in our neighborhoods, and professions where so inspired.

    Ah, m&m, I get what you are trying to say here…. that femininity, and women’s contributions, have wide application, and shouldn’t be underestimated. But do you have to add the “where so inspired”? That clause would never be added if you were talking about a man. Why must we still default to women staying at home as the ideal situation? Why can’t we really just accept that each woman gets to fill in all the blanks in her life as she CHOOSES to do?

    I like that you elevate the importance of parenthood…. we do, after all, (or should), pray to Heavenly Father. But why must we insist that women should still have the primary role in leading and teaching children?

    After all that has been said, and that I KNOW you’ve heard and read, can you really not accept that maybe we should give certain tasks to the individual best suited for and most willing to fulfill them? Can we just stop with the gender-pidgeon-holing? I mean…. c’mon. The circle has got to stop.

    Comment by Natalie K. — February 4, 2010 @ 2:58 am

  170. Suzanne,

    Actually, the part in D&C 132 that stands out to me (or that I focus on is about all the amazing blessings that are sealed upon a couple in the covenant of eternal marriage). That people want to reduce our role to only breeding is not to me reflecting what we are really taught. I’d be concerned if I believed that was all we are good for, but I don’t. Not now, not eternally. But part of God’s plan does include having children, and I’m ok with that, too. Bodies are essential and all that. :)

    Comment by m&m — February 4, 2010 @ 4:26 am

  171. Natalie,
    Thanks for being willing to listen to what I’m thinking. I’m interested in more of your thoughts regarding the following.

    Why must we still default to women staying at home as the ideal situation? Why can’t we really just accept that each woman gets to fill in all the blanks in her life as she CHOOSES to do?

    Of course, I can’t answer to that doctrinally except that I do feel it does matter to keep gender roles on the table as the rule. I share more of what it has meant to me below. I can’t tell you exactly why, but I believe the home matters enough to define it as a sphere that deserves a primary steward, and that primary role in our doctrine falls on women (which to me is a compliment, a blessing, not some awful thing).

    I’m interested in why you see this as a negative– You ask…”But why must we insist that women should still have the primary role in leading and teaching children?”

    Why not, I ask? If we consider the purpose of life, what could be more important than that, really? esp. with our own children, in the one role besides spouse that will be eternal (and has SO much mortal impact)? Isn’t nurturing and teaching and leading children (us) essentially God’s main work?

    To me, those teachings help me remember that truly nothing matters more. And I have needed that because motherhood doesn’t come naturally to me. Without that guidance, I would probably be working a lot and would have missed so much of my kids’ lives. (I still have missed too much even as a SAHM because I am easily distracted and like having projects of my own to work on. Sigh.) But I’m realizing more and more that they DO grow up so fast and they do need me…more and more, really.

    And I need them. Oh, how being their mother has changed my life and who I am. What motherhood has done for ME is incalculable.

    BUT I have also felt God’s hand in opening doors for me to keep my pre-mom self and skills alive - and to discover new ones! For me, realizing how important family life and motherhood is does not negate the other facets of my life that can develop.

    You say:
    But do you have to add the “where so inspired”?

    I DO believe that we (women AND men) should seek God’s guidance with such decisions. In fact, ‘inspired’ could and should have been a qualifier in my comment for ALL those facets. We should seek inspiration in our decisions in our roles at home, in church callings, in service opportunities, and in when/how/if/how much to work for pay. I’d be mad as heck to hear about a man who made a decision either before or after marriage w/o prayefully considering (and counseling w/ his wife, if he has one) the impact a job decision would have on his family life. So I *would* say that about a man, too. :)

    In sum, I don’t think we have to see it all as so limiting and negative. If anything, I feel my life as a woman over time is providing a variety of options — maybe even options that that hubby doesn’t necessarily have as primary provider. I get to be here for the kids (”What are you doing today, dear?” — we get to play!), and now that they are in school, I have some time to pursue some of my own interests (which I have done a little along the way, too). But I don’t HAVE to work for pay (although I could in heartbeat, and someday might). (I know not everyone has that blessing, and their story will be different, of course.)

    I think we just need to be flexible and creative and willing to let God guide us. I’ve been a mom now for a decade plus, and I can honestly say there is much richness in my life — in fact, much of that has come specifically because of the Proclamation and our doctrine about it all — family, education, service, self-reliance, the whole works. If anything, though, I wish I’d savored my kids more while they were little. But I keep trying to stay grounded there, and the doctrine helps me care about that.

    But I’m not just waiting for a great life eternally — I’m living a full, rich, wonderful life now (as a mortal!). :) I love it. And I see that richness only as a portend of things to come.

    I love being a woman.

    Comment by m&m — February 4, 2010 @ 4:31 am

  172. We’re back!!!
    Oh I missed you best online community in the wilderness.

    Comment by crazywomancreek — February 9, 2010 @ 11:08 am

  173. Ah, FMH, you are back! Mwah mwah mwah mwah mwah…

    After all that has been said, and that I KNOW you’ve heard and read, can you really not accept that maybe we should give certain tasks to the individual best suited for and most willing to fulfill them? Can we just stop with the gender-pidgeon-holing? I mean…. c’mon. The circle has got to stop.

    Something that just occurred to me… I have been reading Plato’s Republic for a class I’m auditing. In one part he talks about the ideal state being made up of people doing the jobs that they are best suited for, and includes the radical notion that this may well involve women being leaders of the city-state.

    I am really really new to Plato but some of you might not be. Any thoughts on the relationship between this discussion and the ideas Plato had?

    Comment by xenologue — February 9, 2010 @ 12:48 pm

  174. It lost me calling Risa a “Bull in a China Shop”….. WTH! :D Love you Risa!

    Comment by April — February 9, 2010 @ 1:15 pm

  175. NVM I’m blind.

    Comment by April — February 9, 2010 @ 1:15 pm

  176. Continue on your regularly scheduled programming.

    Comment by April — February 9, 2010 @ 1:16 pm

  177. The perceived “inferiority” of women is not something that is always easily detectable in individuals. You have all probably heard comments by kind, old high priests such as “the women in the Church are far more spiritual than the men.” Some even self-effacingly (but not sincerely) claim this is the reason men were given the priesthood – to compensate for their inherent inferiority. In my view, this is a condescending, sexist comment poorly disguised as disingenuous flattery – lip service to “equality” at best, and mockery at worst.
    Individual sexism is tough to distinguish from individual personalities, quirkiness, bigotry, or just plain stupidity, so there is not much that can be done about it except avoid and ignore such people. Changing individual hearts and minds one at a time is spitting in the wind, isn’t it? And that includes individual children. Teach an individual child about praying to a Mother in Heaven and they will quickly see that such a practice is non-normative in the official Church activities, and they will see you as well as themselves as outsiders, outcasts, perhaps even freaks. It may also be the seed for generalizing rebellion against other aspects of the Church [which may not be a bad thing either].
    In my experience, my wife and daughters are perceived as such outsiders because of their feminist beliefs that they are completely marginalized in the Church. Although an extremely intelligent and talented woman, my wife is ignored for doing anything but playing the piano, and my daughters are avoided by the “righteous” kids who don’t share their ambitions to be lawyers, astronauts and chemists publically the way my daughters do. My daughters are treated like infidels because they don’t want to become SAHMs.

    Comment by Daniel — February 9, 2010 @ 3:09 pm

  178. Excellent comment, Daniel. Thank you!

    Comment by Ahhh... — February 9, 2010 @ 6:44 pm

  179. That is so sad Daniel. That because your daughters have other ambitions in life they are shunned. Wow… I really think lowly of people who looks down on others simply because they have different goals.

    Comment by April — February 9, 2010 @ 7:03 pm

  180. The answer to women not holding the priesthood is simple. God provided different roles for men and women. Men were provided the priesthood and women were provided with a joint responsibility with God in giving birth to future generations. Since men and women are equal in the eyes of God, these roles must be equal to Him. There is no superiority or inferiority involved.

    Comment by nephicode — February 9, 2010 @ 9:50 pm

  181. Neph, seriously, even *I* know that Priesthood does not equal motherhood, or vice versa.. Fatherhood equals motherhood, motherhood equals fatherhood, both of them together equal parenthood. The priesthood, at best, belongs to both the mother and father together, though it’s administrated by the father. Sometimes.

    And there is no correlation in doctrine between priesthood and motherhood.

    Comment by Mommie Dearest — February 9, 2010 @ 10:07 pm

  182. 40.Natalie, I would like to say it goes away. I cried for a month straight when I found out I was having a girl. I knew I should be grateful that i could even have a child but somehow I was filled with gloom. I was so devastated! It was not because I wanted a boy, even though that was the only other logical choice. I just knew from the moment I found out that I would as you said, “expose her to the words and practices that have become a poison to my soul”. There is not a day goes by where my Husband and I say, “I hope she grows up smart but not very attractive.” Before I got married I thought, “What if I can’t have children once I get married?” I remember thinking. “I guess I will just have to understand that my Husband will want a divorce.” I was brought up to think that was all I was worth. I even had a great Feminist Mother!!!!!! Yes a Feminist Mother. THe church is powerful and a Mother can only do so much… So I still cry and often.

    Growing up in the Church I often asked “if men have the priesthood, what is my power?”. I was always told that women had “the power of the home.”
    It’s things like that that only reinforce the idea that our worth lies in our ability to create life. Having children is supposed to be our “power”. And I still don’t think it’s fair- men have power of the home too.
    Where do women who are single or childless or divorced… where is their place in the Church?
    I am a daughter of God. And I am just as loved by my Father in Heaven as any male is. I know this, I feel the truth to it. I want to be told that my worth, my power, doesn’t have to rely on my fertility. Or my ability to find a mate.
    Women are ready for stronger roles in the Church. And until then we can only encourage our female relations to be strong in all things.
    I feel so blessed to come from a family with more women than men. It has shaped me in so many great ways and made me feel so empowered.

    Comment by Bethany R. — February 9, 2010 @ 10:19 pm

  183. I am terrible at this quote stuff. Sorry CZ! Everyone, please know that the quoted bit were MY words and that the paragraph above it was supposed to be quoted!

    Comment by Bethany R. — February 9, 2010 @ 10:21 pm

  184. Daniel, I am so sorry that your family has felt this way, no one should feel outcast in the church.

    Every ward is different. Many are great, some, not so much. I never felt I fit in with the popular Mormon kids. I found different friends. I felt much more respect from the “Jack” Mormon boys from the wrong side of town than any of the kids in my neighborhood. Most of them are strong LDS today, and great husbands and fathers (my DH among them).

    I got stuck playing the piano for several years, until I moved from that ward and into several other wards where there were more members able (and willing) to serve with their talents.

    But most of the girls I grew up with went on to seek degrees and career fields, and most still have some employment in their fields, if not full time. The counsel is, I believe, to seek our highest education possible, and if the YW are being taught something different, I will be the first to complain.

    Comment by SarahJane — February 9, 2010 @ 10:50 pm

  185. nephicode, I understand your point, and I don’t wish to make light of it. Indeed, it was a comment I would have made years ago before I really started listening to my wife and daughters and realized there is a whole feminine world with which I am completely unfamiliar!

    The “a joint responsibility with God in giving birth to future generations” thing has always struck me as a bit abstract and theoretical if not “merely” figurative, and, therefore, less than satisfying. And I don’t believe it is scriptural. It certainly seems to render me, as the father, little more than a secondary “seed donor” on the sidelines of my wife’s and God’s “responsibility” – that takes on the flavor of a breeding program! In fact, one of my midlife/identity crises came from the feeling that being a father was little more than being a “seed donor” and a “paycheck” for my family. If that is really all there is to it, how empty that feels!

    Comment by Daniel — February 9, 2010 @ 11:01 pm

  186. Mommie Dearest. I’m sorry, but fatherhood does not equal motherhood except in a temporal act, since it takes both in a natural sense to reproduce. However, the act of bringing life into the world for a mother is wayyy beyond any act or understanding a father can perform. Only God can reproduce initial spiritual life, and only a woman can bring life into a temporal world. Thus they are closely aligned in this. On the other hand, a man’s role, other than providing love and protection, and other temporal needs, is very different. The priesthood, ultimately, is the power to create universes and worlds “without end” upon which “these may dwell.” When we combine both actions, or responsibilities, men and women are equal in the process of godhood that is eventually available to all who qualify.

    Comment by nephicode — February 10, 2010 @ 1:58 pm

  187. Just a follow up. I was moved by your post and determined that I wanted to do my own test, because I was concerned about how my kids would respond. I was travelling when I read the OP, but this week I had an FHE lesson about the priesthood, talked (as I do often) about how the blessings of the priesthood are in the ordinances, not in the holding of the priesthood. And then I asked the big questions — Who holds the priesthood? Why? The answers from nine-year old daughter and 13-year old son:
    Men hold the priesthood. Because God said so.

    Next questions: Do men and boys have the priesthood because God loves them more? No! Do they hold the preisthood because they’re better than girls and women? No!

    I won’t way i was relieved, because I got the answers I expected. But I was pleased, at least. Our kids grow up in a very traditional home. Mom stays at home and I go to work each day. Older siblings have followed a number of paths — older sisters are at university; two older brothers never went, and one did. (His wife is a PhD candidate in cellular biology.)

    Comment by Paul — February 10, 2010 @ 2:02 pm

  188. Daniel. Being the father of four girls and three boys, and twenty-seven grandchildren, and having held various callings and positions at various levels, I think I have some understanding of the female world–at least within the realm of my experience. My wife and I have discussed this subject many times through various challenges to LDS style living, including the ERA movement that led to the feminist movement, etc. And the joint responsibility is scriptural in the sense that it has been a subject of talks in General Conference for years by different G.A.s I think the point is, that men have their role in life and women have their role in life, and both are equally important and equally of value. In God’s eyes, no one is superior to another, and no occupation or righteous pursuit is superior to another. It rains and shines on doctors and ditch-diggers, on Ph.Ds and school dropouts. It is what we make of ourselves within His plan that enables us to achieve what we came here to accomplish. Perhaps a more positive view of life, of womanhood and manhood, might lead to a more positive value of oneself. As for being on the sidelines, when I have had the opportunity to bless my children, then watch them grow and become the outcome of those blessings, when I have been privy to healing the sick, and giving comfort to the need through exercising my priesthood, it has brought me closer to God and to the importance of my being. My wife tells me she feels that way in giving birth, and nurturing through life her children. There can be no doubt that women are different than men and, therefore, find their joy sometimes in different acts. But both are of equal importance and can be of equal accomplishment.

    Comment by nephicode — February 10, 2010 @ 2:09 pm

  189. nephicode
    Have you considered taking a basic course in Sexuality and Reproduction?
    Not that there’s anything wrong with being self taught, but sometimes getting the perspective of people who have scientifically studied the issue can be helpful.

    Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — February 10, 2010 @ 3:22 pm

  190. …the ERA movement that led to the feminist movement…

    A short study of women’s history might be useful, too.

    Comment by Chandelle — February 10, 2010 @ 3:41 pm

  191. Suzanne: I thought my comments were directed away from the temporal aspect of this. Sexuality and reproduction between a mortal man and woman lead to parenting, obviously. However, I was referring to a spiritual plane between God, woman and man, and the equality between them. I apologize if I did not make that clear.

    Chandelle: Again, I was not referring to history in any depth, or particular chronology. I was referring to an event that my wife and I were discussing. The earlier posts I read here dealt with priesthood and its relationship between the the position of men and women and there different responsibilities. If you want to discuss the feminist movement, fine, but it does not relate to the equality of man’s and woman’s role with God in the helpmeet (partnership) role God indicated. If you want to make one sex superior to another, fine–however, that is not God’s plan.

    Comment by nephicode — February 10, 2010 @ 5:13 pm

  192. so i haven’t read MR nephicode’s comments but i can feel the tone emanating from the screen

    yuk.

    hey, don’t feed the troll. he doesn’t deserve your energy and attention on this matter since he hasn’t proven himself around here.

    Comment by mfranti — February 10, 2010 @ 5:16 pm

  193. Ouch! He picks himself up after being blindsided. It’s a tough world out there

    Comment by nephicode — February 10, 2010 @ 9:35 pm

  194. nephicode,

    based on your last comment, i retract my statement about you being troll. I’m sorry.

    however, you still have to prove yourself around here. you just can’t come in and act like you have all the right answers. It just doesn’t work that way ’round here.

    We are a community and all are welcome to be a part of it, but a little introduction and light hearted chit-chat first is best before you delve into the deep stuff.

    got it? OK

    I’ll go first..

    hi, i’m mfranti. i like to grow things, snowboard and ride bicycles. I prefer to use public transportaion to get to work/school and care deeply about events happening in my neighborhood . I am a convert to the lds church and dual major in geography and environmental studies. I’m a friend to many and defender/ moderator of fmh.

    nice make your acquaintance.

    Comment by mfranti — February 10, 2010 @ 11:20 pm

  195. Nice to know you. Not much to tell about me. Played professional baseball in an earlier life, been married 47 years, have 7 kids and 27 gkids. Did my stint in the bible-belt lands, spent time in the military, started up and ran 3 companies, now retired, still create and sell companies on occasion, but basically dabble in my first love–writing, especially fiction adventures, but also non-fiction about BOM. History and research involve most of my time now. Originally from California, but live in Utah now, where I would have to wait all day if I wanted to catch a bus :) I tend to get a little testy about people who think women are inferior, and that the Lehi colony landed in Mesoamerica (not your general hangups, I’m afraid). I wander around the internet from time to time as circumstances permit, though don’t often make comments. Pretty normal stuff, I guess.

    Comment by nephicode — February 11, 2010 @ 12:57 am

  196. #174 - April, was it on this post? How quickly I forget when a site is down for a couple of days. I don’t want to be a bull. Can’t I be something less lumbering? Luv ya 2 :)

    Comment by Risa — February 11, 2010 @ 1:14 am

  197. Daniel: I hope your daughters who don’t want to be stay at home moms, will show their commitment to equality by evincing the same contempt for stay at home dads.

    Comment by nemmoc — February 11, 2010 @ 10:37 am

  198. Stephanie,

    I wonder if the reason you’re not willing to address the issue of the priesthood with your children ‘head on’, is because you’re not willing to address it with yourself.

    Do you believe in your heart that men deserve privileges that women do not?

    I know you said you do not want to question your faith, but only through a rigorous questioning will you find an answer to your question.

    Comment by Cindy — February 11, 2010 @ 2:40 pm

  199. nemmoc,

    Who said anything about “contempt” for stay at home moms OR dads? That some of my daughters want to be astronauts or scientists does not mean they have any “contempt” for motherhood, “staying at home” (what is that? Like being in a dungeon?) or anything else.

    Are you trying to provoke contention?

    Comment by Daniel — February 11, 2010 @ 3:38 pm

  200. Daniel, “staying at home” is being the person providing full-time childcare for your own children.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 11, 2010 @ 3:45 pm

  201. Daniel,

    it wouldn’t be the first time someone pops in to provoke.

    Comment by mfranti — February 11, 2010 @ 3:59 pm

  202. I see someone has tried to invoke the “separate but equal” argument to justify men holding the priesthood while women cannot. I would think in today’s relatively “post-racial” society (acknowledging that we do not live up to our ideals in this regard), everybody would be very familiar with the legal, logical, and empirical flaws of that argument. What we know is that separate is inherently UNequal, as it applies to race as well as gender/sex.

    The fact that the “equality” of men and woman has to be defended and explained in the Church proves this fact. If the “separate” status of men and women in the Church truly was equal, no prophets would have ever felt the need to speak on the subject. But they have, and they have spoken many times for good reason. The Church continues to suffer from a much higher rate of domestic violence against women than one would expect from people of faith.

    Those who research these things (social scientists in the Reseach Information Divison of the Church’s Correlation Department, as well as at BYU’s Department of Family Science) continually find that “patriarchal” attitudes connected to notions of male superiority, a need for control, and “scriptural support” contribute to these problems.

    Too many men in the Church think that, because Eve partook of the fruit, she was consigned to be “ruled over” by Adam, and that this pattern is meant to characterize the marriage relationship for all:

    Gen. 3:16
    “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”

    Men are often taught in their quorum meetings that they “preside” in the family and home, which too many men think means they are like the “President” and the wife is an inferior, subordinate “counselor” at best. They believe the man has the “final say” on any matter in the family in the same way the Bishop has the “final say” in the Ward. They may patronizingly tolerate the divergent views of their wife, but they smugly refuse to relinquish “final say” they feel is justified for the “presiding officer” in the home.

    Too many men harbor a constellation of beliefs and attitudes that place women in an inferior status, and they do so without even realizing it! They will speak out against sexism and inequality using eloquent words, and they will deny that they have a “problem” in this regard, but then they will go home to their “home office” and not even think about the fact the their wife does not have a home office. They will go on their hunting trips and spend freely on their own hobbies without considering that their wife has no such discretionary budget. They will mindlessly drive their little sports car or sedan without wondering why their wife has to drive a “practical” family car - typically a minivan.

    Whether or not a person believes women are inferior to men cannot be reliably assessed or detected by a direct question. Men and children will give socially acceptable answers, but the way they live their lives will betray a completely different set of “beliefs” about women.

    Comment by Daniel — February 11, 2010 @ 4:07 pm

  203. Sorry, I did not realize I got so carried away until it posted.

    :”)

    Comment by Daniel — February 11, 2010 @ 4:15 pm

  204. Hey, we’re always happy to see a man who cares.

    Comment by Moniker Challenged — February 11, 2010 @ 4:28 pm

  205. i recently had some painful memories of Merry Miss class surface. my very good friend and fellow budding feminist used to fight like cats and dogs with one of the boys in the class about how girls weren’t less than boys.

    He had my own religion on his side. The leaders put up with our “inquisitiveness” for awhile but by the time we were around 13 or 14 we knew there were questions\issues that just weren’t acceptable to ask\discuss anymore and we stopped.

    That’s called resignation my friends. It is it’s own sort of peace but i wouldn’t call it a happy or fulfilling peace.

    Comment by StepfordWife — February 11, 2010 @ 8:10 pm

  206. Perhaps a more positive view of life, of womanhood and manhood,

    The trouble I have with the terms womanhood and manhood in this context is that those roles are defined by an outside source instead of the individuals most intimately concerned with what it means to each of them. Really, what I define as my womanhood can vary greatly from what the woman sitting next to me defines as hers. I have a problem with having my womanhood defined for me by men, or other women for that matter.

    Comment by Kimberly — February 11, 2010 @ 8:48 pm

  207. Daniel - whoever shuttles the most people drives the bigger car, and the only time my husband uses the “home office” (desk in the corner) is to play video games or start our hulu or netflix video.

    I want to add something to the whole preside argument. My husband has always wanted to defer to me in spiritual matters, as I was raised conservative LDS, and he had no religious training, converted, and retains an “outsider looking in” approach to church. I made a decision when my children were little to allow my husband to “preside” in our home. As he has practiced leadership in our home, and then outside it, he has grown in many areas.

    At least for us, he needed the Priesthood to help him grow, as much as I have needed motherhood to help me grow. (Fatherhood has also helped him grow, and leadership positions in school and church have also helped me grow).

    I hope my children see our mutual respect, and take each life experience for what it is - not a commentary on our place in the universe, but an opportunity to learn and grow more like our Heavenly Father and Mother.

    Comment by SarahJane — February 11, 2010 @ 9:21 pm

  208. Daniel, can I say “Amen”?

    Comment by Risa — February 11, 2010 @ 9:29 pm

  209. I made a decision when my children were little to allow my husband to “preside” in our home.

    Yes, sometimes I allow my dh to preside in our home as well… (couldn’t resist.)

    Comment by Kimberly — February 11, 2010 @ 10:33 pm

  210. I’m not sure whether our stake patriarch was an inner-feminist or if God knew I’d be one, but I’m glad that my patriarchal blessing explicitly separates priesthood from fatherhood- and even motherhood. For myself, I know that priesthood isn’t the male equivalent of motherhood.

    Comment by TopHat — February 11, 2010 @ 10:40 pm

  211. The idea of motherhood being the equivelent of priesthood is understandable when you look at someone searching from within a conservative church context (like that 18yo young man that had his head chewed off last week or so). The idea of someone seriously telling me that it IS equivelent and I should be happy with my “power to create” makes my brain go blank with annoyance…and perhaps anger depending upon my “Mothering” duties of the day.

    How insulting to so many people.

    Comment by ErinAnn — February 11, 2010 @ 11:12 pm

  212. If the “separate” status of men and women in the Church truly was equal, no prophets would have ever felt the need to speak on the subject.

    I think it’s critical to separate out the doctrine from the behavior. The prophets speak about the doctrine. Whether people live it is another question.

    Also, imo, to use the logic that the only way to test if something is true is if prophets *don’t* speak about it sort of misses the point of what prophets are for. The reason we have prophets is to help us see what we cannot see alone, to help us know what is truth that we cannot reason out for ourselves, to help us stay on the path to God when the natural mortal tendencies would take us elsewhere.

    Again, just because behavior doesn’t necessarily always line up with the truths they teach doesn’t negate the truth. Just because we have to be reminded of the commandments and teachings of Christ doesn’t mean they aren’t real and true.

    Too many men harbor a constellation of beliefs and attitudes that place women in an inferior status

    Too many women insist that this is the case in our church, too, though. And to me that is part of the value of hearing prophets teach the truth. The question, imo, is whether we — both men and women — believe it and live it.

    Comment by m&m — February 12, 2010 @ 1:07 am

  213. Daniel, your number 202 reminded me of this little essay I came across the other day:

    http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/rainbow/wife.html

    Funny, but serious.

    Comment by Hammie (formerly Natalie K.) — February 12, 2010 @ 3:52 am

  214. I read the link. It made me furious. That’s not even really a wife, more like personal slave. Anyway, what makes me mad is when you try to address a concern about the inequality and then they just pretend that they don’t know what you’re talking about, that you’re just a crazy little person.

    Comment by Keth — February 12, 2010 @ 4:27 am

  215. You* and others who share these views are teaching these things through your interpretations. Listen, I ache that you ache so much about these things, but your perceptions are the source, not the church, and especially not the doctrine. The doctrine is so far from what you are saying here.

    Too many women insist that this is the case in our church, too, though.

    m&m, you’ve complained about this a couple of times now, as if institutional sexism wouldn’t exist if we just didn’t point it out.

    Please stop shooting the messenger. If you truly believe that the church isn’t sexist, then you should be able to articulate a case for your point of view. Telling those who disagree with you to be quiet isn’t worthy of you. You can do better than that!

    Just to review a few other basic points: This isn’t about my “aching.” I know you mean well, but I don’t need people to empathize with my pain. What I need here is a far more basic and durable gospel principle: justice.

    Neither is this about the bad behavior of a few sexist individuals. This is about doctrine. This is about the teachings of our prophets. This is about a temple ceremony that depicts women as created for men, ritually subordinates women, and in which women have no eternal existence before or after this life, in which there are no corresponding female entities in heaven or hell. This is about an institution in which women cannot hold the power of God or act in God’s name and in which women are systematically excluded from every level of decision-making. This is about a family structure in which men preside and women “hearken.”

    In short, this is about patriarchy, the term we unblushingly use to describe our hierarchy of the sexes. All our talk about “honoring women” and our insistence that men and women are equal does not change these hard–doctrinal–facts. (If you want doctrine, it does not get more doctrinal than the temple ceremony.) What we say as an institution means nothing in the overwhelming face of what we do. (That, too, is a scriptural principle. Consult your Sermon on the Mount!)

    This is not just a matter of my or anyone else’s perceptions. This is a publicly accessible and verifiable reality–accessible enough that our (and evidently, your!) young children are getting the message, loud and clear.

    Comment by ZD Eve — February 12, 2010 @ 9:18 am

  216. in which women have no eternal existence before or after this life, in which there are no corresponding female entities in heaven or hell

    Can you explain what you mean by this?

    Comment by britt — February 12, 2010 @ 9:43 am

  217. Britt, that’s a fair question. I was alluding, in a very compressed style, to the temple. I don’t know how detailed I want to get here, but let’s just say the universe is thoroughly masculinized–gods, devils, heaven, hell, pre- and post-existence are all entirely male.

    If there are women anywhere but on this earth, they (we?) are evidently not important enough to depict. That’s a powerful doctrinal message.

    Comment by ZD Eve — February 12, 2010 @ 10:15 am

  218. Too many men harbor a constellation of beliefs and attitudes that place women in an inferior status

    Too many women insist that this is the case in our church, too, though. And to me that is part of the value of hearing prophets teach the truth.

    m&m, not to pile on, but I think it is worth pointing out that a several prophets in this dispensation have stated explicitly that women are of inferior status. And those statements and attitudes do carry over into some of the behavior we now see, but which you are anxious to disentangle from official church statements. Sooner or later we need to own up to what is going on and admit that official church teaching at least can have some negative consequences.

    Comment by Mark Brown — February 12, 2010 @ 10:39 am

  219. In context to what ZD Eve was saying in #217: I truly believe that the scriptures are a product of their misogynistic times. Women were mostly edited out by scribes and such that saw their inclusion as “dangerous”. While it is no longer excusable today, there is no way (that I know of) to reinstate what has been lost in this regard (outside of acquiring another prophet that is not only a “Prophet, seer, and revelator” but also a “translator” like JS was).

    Because the temple has biblical origins it too has a very misogynistic feel. If it didn’t the LDS church would be pointed at for not only adding the BoM but also for rewriting the bible, because in order for the temple ordinances to change the bible would have to change also.

    I’m not saying it can’t change (for a sincerely hope it does!), it just hasn’t yet.

    Comment by April — February 12, 2010 @ 11:00 am

  220. m&m, not to pile on, but I think it is worth pointing out that a several prophets in this dispensation have stated explicitly that women are of inferior status.

    Mark, can you quote some of these? I haven’t heard it explicitly said by prophets that women are inferior.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 12, 2010 @ 11:53 am

  221. ZD eve, I think that not having women present in certain parts doesn’t take away the whole meaning of the ceremony that we are each created by God and through the Savior can come back to him eternally. The temple is incredibly focused on temple marriage which really requires a woman to last a bit longer than this earth-while the endowment is focused on us individually getting to eternity-I guess we interpret things totally differently.

    Reading any book of scripture about the creation mentions spiritual creation first-Are you trying to say that because it isn’t explicitly shown that eve existed before, that that counteracts all the scripture we have stating otherwise?

    the temple ceremony has already changed multiple times and frequnetly towards more equality

    Comment by britt — February 12, 2010 @ 11:55 am

  222. Britt, I don’t know if I actually accept that particular read of the scriptural creation narratives (that the first is spiritual; honestly, I don’t see any evidence for it in the text)–but that’s probably beside the point, as I would agree that we do have other reasons to think that women did in fact exist premortally. However, the fact that this is evidently unimportant enough to make it into our liturgy is in and of itself is a powerful message.

    Comment by Lynnette — February 12, 2010 @ 12:39 pm

  223. Lynette these are some of hte scriptures I’m getting it from: Moses 3:5 says “For I the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spirutally, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth”-then read Genesis 2:5-if you want to assume those two verses are only plants go ahead…Doctrine and Covenants 29:31-32 “For by the power of my Spirit created I them; yea, all things both spirutal and temporal; First spirtual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work”

    If we’re looking for doctrine in what is NOT said..that’s a funny way of doing things. Many scriptures say spirits are eternal-no beginnning and no end…are we to assume that only the spirits and individuals mentioned specifically inthe temple existed? or only men-just because only men are shown? Despite every other scriptrue, explanation, discussion, lesson? Our whole concept of birth and death rely on an eternal spirit.

    Comment by britt — February 12, 2010 @ 1:01 pm

  224. Because the temple has biblical origins it too has a very misogynistic feel. If it didn’t the LDS church would be pointed at for not only adding the BoM but also for rewriting the bible, because in order for the temple ordinances to change the bible would have to change also.

    I think the temple ceremony has pretty much abandoned any attempt to remain “true” to the Bible. There are already loads of extra-Biblical things in there that people complain about. And I really think “we would be pointed at” is a terrible excuse for ever backing away from what we think is true or right.

    Comment by Hammie (formerly Natalie K.) — February 12, 2010 @ 1:02 pm

  225. britt, I don’t think we have to assume that only men existed pre-mortally. But I don’t think you could blame someone if they did come away with that interpretation.

    No man ever has to even wonder, given just the smallest glimpse into our doctrine, if he existed eternally. A woman could go around for quite a while and never see evidence of her eternal existence. Of course I don’t think that’s true….. I think men have monopolized the ability to shape our official message and have obscured the importance of women.

    But not all women (and especially, not all young girls) have the same confidence and sense of self-importance that I do.

    Comment by Hammie (formerly Natalie K.) — February 12, 2010 @ 1:05 pm

  226. Natalie…my nickname during college was Hammy (also last name related)-seeing your hammie brings back floods of memories .

    Comment by britt — February 12, 2010 @ 1:18 pm

  227. Britt, I’m not denying the idea of spiritual creation; I’m just saying that I don’t think it’s the best way to read the different creation accounts in Genesis, which has implications for our view of Eve. But again, that’s not really my point. I completely agree that the notion of pre and post mortal spirits is central to LDS teachings.

    My point is–if women were there, why are only men depicted? What does that say about our view of women’s importance? It’s possible that premortal frogs were also playing some significant role. But it would be hard to make that case, given that we don’t bother to depict their contributions..

    It’s also worth noting, I think, that the named characters, the actors in our cosmic drama, are all male.

    Comment by Lynnette — February 12, 2010 @ 1:27 pm

  228. So just throw out every concept of premortal life we’ve ever taught, read about or studied-question it all because of that? That whole council in heaven, third of hosts thing- that whole choose the Lord’s side that’s how we got a body thing, that whole we are spirit children of God “I am a child of God” thing-really? We are taught that we are spirit children of God from the beginning…literally first lesson in primary.

    I understand a woman wondering where we are in the temple-there are differences, and I don’t understand them, but to say that ALL of the actual doctrine about premortal life should be quesitoned because of the lack of representation is strange to me.

    Comment by britt — February 12, 2010 @ 1:52 pm

  229. Britt, I think we’re just talking past each other, so I’m going to drop this–but for what it’s worth, one more time, I’m not proposing that we throw out any of that. I’m just asking, if we do in fact believe that all that applies equally to men and women, what does it mean that we don’t incorporate it into our liturgy? What does that communicate about our view of women’s importance? That’s all. I’m not trying to undermine the whole child of God thing, honest. ;)

    Comment by Lynnette — February 12, 2010 @ 2:00 pm

  230. #214 Yet it is so true. Maybe thats not your perception of what a wife is. But it sure is for quite a few men I know.

    Comment by cz — February 12, 2010 @ 2:05 pm

  231. Not to break up the debate or anything, but this seemed like a fun place to bring in Barbie and her new career.

    Comment by ErinAnn — February 12, 2010 @ 3:39 pm

  232. lynette, I bet we are talking past each other…I just don’t like assumptoins. Women are clearly represented in the temple experience-the most obvious connections to be made are feeling out of place and feeling o fless worth-not that you woul dhave to feel that way…the power of those feelings on how you interpret the rest of the experience is important to consider.

    Comment by britt — February 12, 2010 @ 4:18 pm

  233. Daniel,

    When you ask whether “staying at home” is “like being in a dungeon” it’s clear where your daughters get their contempt for women who stay at home.

    Comment by nemmoc — February 13, 2010 @ 6:33 pm

  234. nemmoc, Daniel simply said his daughters didn’t want to become SAHM’s… not that they thought it was like being in a dungeon or that they felt contempt for women who stay at home. Please stop trying to start a fight. I appreciate his comments… and I’m sure his daughters and wife are grateful for his supportive and validating point of view.

    Comment by Ahhh... — February 13, 2010 @ 7:42 pm

  235. britt, Lynnette was pointing out that women are not depicted premortally in the temple.

    Comment by Ziff — February 13, 2010 @ 7:47 pm

  236. #202 = pandering

    Comment by SUNNofaB.C.Rich — February 15, 2010 @ 1:19 am

  237. ziff–I get that. I just don’t get how a women could from that assume women might not exist premortally given the HUGE weight of doctrine and information, music, scripture, prophets and everything else that leans the other way.

    I’m not at all trying to imply women get equal time in the presentation–they don’t. I am trying to say let’s not assume it means something clearly against our doctrine.

    Comment by britt--the hammy — February 15, 2010 @ 5:28 am

  238. I pretty much always assumed the opposite of your son.

    Instead of “I guess [girls] just aren’t good enough” I always took it to mean “boys are icky and aren’t good enough to go to heaven without it”. Obviously (hopefully) I’ve moved beyond that stage, but I still consider it a decent way for kids to think of it :P

    Comment by Julia — February 17, 2010 @ 4:04 pm

  239. I remember asking my dad what his job was. A lawyer. For some reason, I thought that because he was a man, only men could be lawyers. I don’t think it had anything to do with social issues, it was just that I put my parents in gender roles based %100 on what they did. I thought only women could wear overalls because my mom did. I wouldn’t worry too much about your sons.

    Comment by sjhaughty — February 18, 2010 @ 12:42 am

  240. Ahhh: I would say that if anyone is “trying to start a fight” it would be someone who asks whether staying at home is like being in a dungeon. Obviously you know very well that it is not like being in a dungeon, so what is the purpose of making such an allusion, other than to start a fight?

    Comment by nemmoc — February 18, 2010 @ 2:23 am

  241. Daniel never said it was, so you are the one putting words in his mouth and trying to raise contention.

    Comment by Ahhh... — February 18, 2010 @ 9:19 am

  242. sjhaughty, Fascinating Woman says that only men can be lawyers, doctors, etc. (basically any type of professional that requires competition). Yuck.

    Also, on Sunday, my 7 year old said, “I bet we’re going to talk about Valentine’s Day in Primary today. Because this is the day Jesus was resurrected, right?”

    I think my kids just have parents who suck at teaching them the gospel.

    Comment by Stephanie — February 18, 2010 @ 9:23 am

  243. Stephanie - there are DEFINITELY worse parents out there… especially about teaching religion to kids… I sometimes wonder if my kids have any clue.

    Comment by April — February 18, 2010 @ 10:19 am

  244. I left the church as a teen for this reason.

    The fact is, women DO hold the priesthood. We have all the spiritual powers men have. No church can grant or withhold our divine, equal spiritual authority.

    The Church, change-adverse as it is, needs to progress to 2010, and acknowledge its good and faithful women and Mother God. To not do so to hold to some past version of its own “rightness,” grounded in the gender-paradigm of the era of its founding pre-sufferage, is sin.

    Comment by The Girl Revolution — February 18, 2010 @ 2:48 pm

  245. are you talking about the gender-paradigm era that encompasses the entire history of humanity and christianity?

    Comment by SUNNofaB.C.Rich — February 20, 2010 @ 2:07 am

Leave a comment

RSS feed for comments on this post.
TrackBack URI