Married to a Sugar Mama
Luv just got a promotion. She graduated in May with her Masters in Architecture, and because of the economy, took an unpaid internship at a firm she really liked. The partners were impressed by her skill and strong work ethic, and they soon decided to put her on the payroll. Now she has earned a promotion and a raise. She’s still underpaid based on the average starting wage for architects in 2006, when she entered the grad program–but given that many of her classmates are unemployed, we’re just thrilled she has a job and is starting to move up. This will give us a little bit of financial breathing space, an opportunity to start dealing more aggressively with our student loan debt, and perhaps to start looking at the possibility of purchasing a house in the future.
At her current wage, her gross income will be significantly greater than mine.
And yes, it bothers me a little.
The situation is becoming much more common. A recent Pew Center research study shows that the number of marriages in which a wife earns more than husband has risen from 4% in 1970 to 22% in 2007 (”New Economics of Marriage: The Rise of Wives,” 01.10.2010). The educational statistics have shown a remarkable turnaround: In 1970 28% of husbands had a higher level of education than their wives, while 19% of wives had a higher level of education (52% had roughly equal education). Now 28% of wives have a higher level of education, compared to 18% of husbands (53% equal; ibid). This appears to be part of a long-term trend–one which, according to projections, is likely to continue (”Degrees conferred by degree-granting institutions, by level of degree and sex of student: Selected years, 1869-70 through 2016-17,” National Center for Educational Statistics)*. Though some make a case that this evolution has “had a positive effect, contributing to lower divorce rates and happier unions (Tara Parker-Pope, “Working Women Say Their Marriage is Richer for It,” The New York Times, 01.22.2010)”, the shift has caused friction for many couples while the roles and relationships are being redefined.
Theoretically, it shouldn’t bother me at all. I’m a feminist. I believe in equality of opportunity. I have no emotional investment in traditional gender roles (at least not consciously; I suppose thirty-plus years of ecclesiastical emphasis on gender roles may subconsciously be a factor), nor in “ownership” of our money. I don’t think I would have any problem whatsoever in this role reversal if Luv had a dream to magnify her talents in this particular field. But that wasn’t the case.
“Who would ever have imagined?” Luv marveled at dinner as we celebrated her news. “I’m a professional! I never thought I would be here. I just wanted to be a Mom.”
I didn’t know how to respond.
That wasn’t the first time she’d made such a statement. Luv in many ways has a fairly traditional perspective. Yes, she’s always loved buildings, drawing them and building them with Lincoln Logs, Legos, or whatever else was on hand. As a teen she was eager to work with her father, a general contractor, on job sites, and has long been hurt that he always declined her help, instead taking her younger brother. But she insists that the thought of being an architect was an idle fantasy of youth. Her dream was to be a SaHM to several children, with a husband who would provide for the family’s material needs. It was only after a few years of marriage, with no children forthcoming and with major depression interfering with my employment, that Luv decided to dust off that idle fantasy and see if she could improve our financial prospects.
In other words, her choice was not one driven by a yearning to be an architect. That was a Plan B. My failure to fulfill the role we had both expected I would take when we married “necessitated individual adaptation.”
That hardly seems a triumph for feminism.
I’ve expected that she probably would end up bringing home the bigger paycheck ever since she made that decision. Her career path tends to be better compensated than those to which my aptitudes are suited (librarians rarely make big bucks; the market for history teachers at all levels is saturated; I’ve seen few job listings for “blog poster and commentor;” and while there are some prominent graphic designers who are richly rewarded, that would require a skill level above mediocre). I happily supported her path, taking more responsibilities at home, willingly playing gofer at any time to get her materials or to bring her sleep-deprived body home from the building lab in the wee hours of the morning so she could get a few hours of sleep. I’m incredibly proud of all she’s accomplished and the confidence she’s developed as she’s gone through her education. But I also feel a pang of self-resentment and frustration as I wonder if, through my ineptitude, I’ve robbed her of what she really wanted.
* for an interesting consideration of this data, read Jonathan Rauch “The Coming American Matriarchy,” Reason Magazine, 01.15.2008.
Give her time to get used to the career, she may find she likes it.
Comment by Eris — February 9, 2010 @ 10:40 pm
I should clarify that she is passionate about architecture, and she loves the firm she’s working in. It’s just that ultimately, she would rather be a Mom than an architect.
Comment by Derek — February 9, 2010 @ 11:06 pm
My wife has had much more steady work for a school district food service than I’ve had as an Electronic Technician. And, I’m in Silicon Valley.
Comment by Mike H. — February 9, 2010 @ 11:38 pm
Tears. Me too- only I have children but my husband has lost three jobs in three years forcing me to not be the mom I wanted to be…
Comment by Crystal — February 9, 2010 @ 11:46 pm
Thanks for such a heartfelt, honest post, Derek.
When it comes to issues of marriage, work, careers, money, children, dreams, intellectual passions, and heartbreaking realities, nothing is simple or easy, is it? I don’t know anyone for whom things have turned out precisely as he or she planned. And yet, as in your wife’s case, sometimes the unexpected brings people unexpected and wonderful powers and joys. Good for Luv for pursuing a career that she loves and that is brightening your family’s financial prospects.
Of course I can speak only for myself and from my own experience, but I will say that for all my many impractical intellectual passions, I wanted to take care of my children during the day more than I wanted to do anything else. Motherhood came very late and unexpectedly to me, but I’ve quickly found–as so many other women have!–that I’ve absolutely got to have a toe in another world of my own, to keep myself sane. Impossible as the balancing act often seems, graduate school has also been my salvation as an SAHM.
My husband and I ended up in pretty traditional gender roles (except for my little graduate school habit) so I’m sure I don’t have anything helpful to say about that. But I can see how that must be really hard at times. I know during our long years of infertility I sometimes felt such a visceral, profound sense of failure as a woman, failure to do the one thing that the church had told me all my life was constitutive of who I was. It’s hard to reason with such feelings, hard even to plumb their depths.
P.S. Major depression sucks. You have my heartfelt sympathy.
Comment by ZD Eve — February 9, 2010 @ 11:52 pm
Plan B has a funny way of becoming Plan Be.
Comment by Jessica — February 9, 2010 @ 11:59 pm
What a great post, Derek. I’ll comment when I have more time but I just wanted you to know how much I appreciated reading this.
Comment by crazywomancreek — February 10, 2010 @ 12:02 am
Great post.
I’m a sugar momma, have been since we got married. Husband is a student and I bring home the bucks. It is a little awkward sometimes — I assume a role as a provider and it isn’t something I wanted (the stress!!). But it has made me feel like I have something, my own projects, my own responsibilities. Not that mom’s don’t have those projects (!), but this is where I am and I am learning to like it.
Comment by Natalie — February 10, 2010 @ 12:28 am
“What if” is always the killer isn’t it? Even when we end up where we always thought we were going to be (me as a SAHM) we always wonder “what if”. What if I had continued my schooling? What if I had become an interior designer or gone into robotics? Would I still have those days that I just want to scream and pull my hair out? I love my children (I really do!) but there are times when i wish I had followed a different path… allowing my husband to stay a home with the kids instead of myself (and he would have HAPPILY done it).
But then I come to terms with life and realize… this is the best place for me right now. I think that no matter where I go or what I do I will end up in the best place for me. God will see to it.
I will second the empathy about severe depression… I truly don’t think anyone can fully understand that unless they have been there. I have. I hope you have been able to get a handle on that beast… if your comments are any indication, it seems you have
PS Just curious, I’m wondering what your “career” is… do you work from home, have a job outside the house, or are you one of those truly rare guys that finds the strength to be a SAHD? (I ask because I honestly admire a dad that can fight off gender rolls enough to weather being a SAHD in our culture as it is right now)
Comment by April — February 10, 2010 @ 12:54 am
I think I know how you feel, on some levels there.
My husband and I married in 1991, and he said at the time he wanted to support me in the career I told him I wanted. But I think, in some deep chamber of his heart and soul, he expected me to change my mind — he thought that after our kids were born, I would love them too much to ever go back to work, and he would be a traditional breadwinner.
That didn’t happen.
I love my kids, and I love working, too. It was never an “either/or” decision for me. In fact, I work for the kids, for exactly the same reasons my husband does: to contribute to the family and to the world at large. I was a stay-at-home mom for a few years, and I was never very good at it.
I have to say, we are happy, but….somewhere, deep in my own heart and soul, I sometimes suspect my husband might have been happier, if he had married a more traditional woman. And I, too, feel “a pang of self-resentment and frustration as I wonder if, through my [maternal] ineptitude, I’ve robbed [him] of what [he] really wanted.”
Comment by L. — February 10, 2010 @ 5:58 am
I have a career that I like quite a bit, and I make a reasonable amount of money at - much more than most English majors who don’t go to law school.
I usually date (and like) guys that don’t make as much. I tend to like idealists and dreamers and academics. It wasn’t until the last academic that it occurred to me that the money thing really bothered him. He was a feminist, I thought. I like my job and I quite like the financial security and ego boost it gives me. I really hate that apparently I have to choose between the type of guys I like and my own financial security and enjoyable career.
I wonder a bit if it is threatening, not because I think I think less of ex (I admire the bravery), but because I really prefer to have my own career to fall back on - you can’t give up your own financial security for romanticism. The vast majority of women will work outside the home in their lifetime - I prefer it to be at a job I like and for non-joke wages. Perhaps the entire thing reveals a fundamental flaw in the system where women don’t prepare to provide because men will take care of them. They don’t - not consistently, and certainly not enough for me to consign myself to a possible life of poverty just to avoid hurting some (at this point) stranger’s feelings.
So, I just hate that in order to not make him feel less, I have to make myself less. And make less. Heck with that. I don’t consider the measure of a man to be how much money he makes. I wish that so many men didn’t consider the measure of a woman to be how little she makes.
Comment by Katie P. — February 10, 2010 @ 9:00 am
That last sentence really hit home for me. My wife and I are both professionals and we make okay money. No kids . We both work in industries that have been decimated by the recession and neither of us have lost our jobs - but we both hate our jobs because of the high stress and uncertainty. Should be better money for the amount of late nights and travel and amount of time away from each other. We basically have no life outside of work. We’re both “riding the tiger” and don’t know how to get off without being eaten alive.
I know she wants kids, but my job is tenuous enough that it just doesn’t make sense for us to take the plunge right now. She’s not happy with the current situation as she doesn’t have the family she wants and her job is high stress with little/no appreciation from senior management. There are a number of days I wish I was a better earner, more talented, or had made better decisions in my professional life to give her the life she wants.
Comment by Ryan — February 10, 2010 @ 9:38 am
Such a heartfelt post. The last sentence is what makes me want to cry.
I don’t think it’s fair to beat yourself up because you think you’ve robbed your wife of something. In my opinion, part of growing up and becoming an adult is realizing that just because you dreamed of something your whole life doesn’t mean it will happen. That sometimes, you can’t make it happen. And that is isn’t any ones fault. It sounds like your wife is coming to that realization and is embracing it. Good for her.
I also am a firm believer that if I want to live a certain way, I am just as responsible for my husband in making that happen. If we want a certain standard of living and a certain comfort level, it is by no means his responsibility to provide all of that, since we both want it. I am an equal partner, and if I want it that badly, I can earn my share of it, thankyouverymuch.
Comment by Dancer 007 — February 10, 2010 @ 9:53 am
Derek .. a diagnosis is not the same as ineptude. One implies an illness and the other speaks to abilities - they can’t be exchanged one for the other.
Certainly you two have talked opening and honestly (with or without a counselor) about your individual and familial goals. Save yourself the heartache and act as if your current situation is exactly as it should be for this season.
I need a diet coke.
Awesome Wednesday sisters and brothers!! Make it a great one!
Comment by Mary Magdalene — February 10, 2010 @ 10:08 am
Derek, I know what you mean about expectations not lining up with reality.
My husband works in the arts, and I knew going into my marriage that he’d never make the big bucks. As a 21 year old I thought that would never matter, because I was going to have a wonderful, well-paid career. Fast forward 10 years and I’ve got the career, although it’s not as wonderful or well paid as I imagined. I’d never tell him this, but sometimes I wish he’d change careers and earn more so I could have less pressure to earn and more time to be at home with our son.
BUT.
There are lots of advantages to me working as well, for instance I think if I were at home the overall quality of my interactions with my son would decrease because I get burned out quickly with his high energy level. And I have more time to blog at work than I do at home!
Life hands us circumstances beyond our control. And there are unforeseen consequences to our choices. So I try to remind myself to extract the most good from the life I have, rather than dwell on regrets.
Comment by Anon for this — February 10, 2010 @ 10:25 am
Derek, I’m so glad you posted, I hadn’t seen you comment much lately…
I don’t know anything supportive to say other than I feel so much for you and Luv and your broken dreams and your new dreams and the reality that lies somewhere in between.
Like Luv, I find myself becoming a “career woman” when my deepest desire is to be my mom. It’s hard to let go of what you want, especially when you feel like it’s what you’re “supposed” to do, and even harder when you feel some guilt for realizing you like the new you, too.
And like you, I have that constant companion with me that never seems to quite let me be who I am or love who I am, I imagine regardless of what role I have. I think even if I had gone with Plan A all the way, gotten married, had 8 kids, it would still not let me rest.
I’m trying to remember this:
from April, and have enough faith to actually believe it in my heart.
And this breaks my heart:
Sending thoughts/prayers/warm fuzzies to you and Luv…
Comment by Enna — February 10, 2010 @ 10:30 am
a mom, not my mom
Comment by Enna — February 10, 2010 @ 10:47 am
10 years ago, when we got married, I was the “bringer of the bacon” while my husband stayed home (with my mom at the time, lol). It got very hard on him, because he was an able bodied slightly stereotypical male, who saw it as his duty to provide for our little family. (we lived in my home country, and it was illegal for him to work, he had no papers yet)
We ended up moving to his home state of California when we found out I was pregnant with our first child.
He has done construction, dispatched for police and city utilities, and now is a Sheriff’s Deputy. He is also a volunteer Firefighter. I have been mostly a SaHM, with time spent working at Walmart, and in a hospital as a Certified Nurse’s Assitant. My ultimate goal is to go back to school and get my RN.
My husband always jokes about how he can’t wait till I get through school, because he would love to stay home, look after the house and kids, and go play golf occasionally. He is a much better housekeeper then I am, and is much more patient with the kids. And as soon as I get healthy, I will be going to school!
He has grown over the years, and now loves the idea of me being his “sugar momma”. I think, once he “grew up” he realized that its not who brings home the money, its all about how your family survives! (plus being able to pay all the bills on time and have a little left over would be fantastic!!)
Our society has pushed the stereotype of the man being the breadwinner, while the little woman waits at home for him, and I think that men are beginning to wake up a little! They are realizing that women have dreams farther outside the home. And while it will be a little hard to bust those walls down, it is happening!
Derek, good for you, for recognizing your wife’s talents and helping her embrace them and pursue them. (even when it is hard for you!)
Comment by Kshaw — February 10, 2010 @ 10:54 am
When I married, we had major child support obligations to my dear step-son for another 5 years. I worked at various jobs to supplement our income through the winters when DH’s construction work slowed to a crawl and the CS took all his income. In a couple months I will actually start bringing in tangible income from my current job. We had some legal trouble with the house we built, and after a very large judgment in our favor, the contractor filed bankruptcy leaving us holding all $270K+ in damages (our house ended up costing us double.) It’s taken me over four years of part-time paralegal work to work off the $70K+ debt to the attorney. He’s keeping me on and that will really help with the other obligations from that whole mess.
DH would love for me to become an attorney and be the full-time breadwinner so he could retire in the next 10 years. It’s not something I really want to do, and the logistics are daunting, but depending on the economy and all other life factors (including DH’s health), that may be our road.
Our dreams and reality are seldom the same. I had hoped to be a SAHM of lots of kids, but marrying into CS obligations, infertility, and adoption changed all that. We also aren’t always aware of our personalities at a young age. After substituting teaching for some years, I realized that I really don’t have the patience to run a classroom full time. I’ve also realized that I really don’t have the patience required to parent a large number of children. If they were all like my son, it wouldn’t be an issue. If I had another like my daughter, I’d be in a long-term ward in short order. DH is a very intelligent man who can do complicated trigonometry in his head. However, he doesn’t read well at all, and that has held him back in his profession. When he has a very large project going, I can spend up to 3 hours a day helping with the paperwork. It’s part of being a partnership. We all do what we can, when we can. LIfe, health and other factors all come into play in determining what our contributions at any given time will be. Sometimes we are the much needed support system while a partner is incapacitated, at other times, the roles are reversed, and sometimes we are both out there giving all we’ve got hoping to stay on our feet until we can take a breather.
Comment by JC — February 10, 2010 @ 11:10 am
I love this post, Derek. Congratulations to Luv on her promotion!
When J. and I got together, I planned to go to medical school and then make the (relatively) big bucks as a medical examiner. He planned to be a teacher. He held up his end of the bargain. I didn’t.
We’re on Plan G by this point.
Comment by Chandelle — February 10, 2010 @ 11:29 am
This is wonderful and brave Derek. I loved it.
Having been there myself, I’d bet money that when Luv gets wistful about her new life path, she’s not thinking of your jobs or depression at all. I’d bet she’s thinking about the kids and whatever is keeping them from coming.
If kids had come when you first hoped, you would have done whatever it took to make it, but without kids, you both need something to fulfill you or you’ll go crazy. How awesome that she found a way to fulfill this dream while the other one is taking its sweet time.
Comment by Reese Dixon — February 10, 2010 @ 11:56 am
It’s HUGELY helpful in a two earner family, to have at least one partner
in a job that seldom requires overtime and hardly ever loads of business travel, and rarely leaves the worker coming home insane with stress. Librarian sounds like just the thing. If it’s any comfort, husband is ever so glad I made enough while working to leave something in the retirement savings for his fishing trips. While working, I was ever so glad his job was of the sort to allow him to take the kids to the Dr. or work at home when some repairman was scheduled.
It’s SO GREAT to hear a good “got a job and a raise” story in these days of shortages of both.
Comment by Betty Jo — February 10, 2010 @ 12:00 pm
chandelle,
plan B 5.5 sounds better.
Comment by mfranti — February 10, 2010 @ 12:09 pm
I enjoyed the post, Derek. I’d like to think that if I were in the position of making less than my wife or being a SAHD, I would be fine with it. I have a great role model, in that my best (non-LDS) friend has been a SAHD for years, and it has worked out wonderfully for his family. But traditional expectations run deep, and I have to admit that were I put in the position of not being the breadwinner, it would be a definite adjustment to my psyche. I’m confident that would be an adjustment I could and would make, but it would be an adjustment nonetheless.
Comment by Kevin Barney — February 10, 2010 @ 1:31 pm
thank you for explaining all the emotions behind your situation. so human and touching…so real.
It is always heartbreaking to realize how our choices affect people we love and they love us anyway, perhaps it helps her to feel needed, her income is a real help and contribution. I’m sure it will take a while for her to enjoy her carreer and not feel that takes away from her appretiation of motherhood and great desire in that direction…its hard to take compliments you never wanted to earn.
Comment by britt — February 10, 2010 @ 2:01 pm
JC — Your story reminds me of a dear friend of mine. She’s been a Paralegal for years, and the primary breadwinner in their family. They recently (a couple years ago) decided to have hubby work full-time instead of being SAHD, but she decided to further her education. She just completed her bachelors and took the LSAT this past Saturday. I’m amazed. They have three children 5 and under, and she’s stolen time for classes during quiet moments and evenings. Most classes have been done online.
I hope that you can carve out time for your own dreams too.
Comment by ErinAnn — February 10, 2010 @ 2:17 pm
Wait a sec. I am wondering why you say that the reason why she has a great career is because YOU failed to live up to expectations. I thought it was because you don’t have children.
What am I missing here?
Secondly, I have those exact conversations with my husband. I marvel at what I am doing and how much I have learned and I bask in the new confidence I get from unexpected challenges and successes (no matter what stage of life I’m in). Your wife is enjoying the good stuff of learning and growing which is what we are supposed to do. Wives often love to express stuff. Read the Mars and Venus book. You aren’t supposed to fix anything. Just let her talk and process what is going on in her life.
Finally, I have to wonder at your idea that dreams can only be born in youth. Why is her satisfaction at getting a job she enjoys less right because it is Plan B. She sounds like she is excited about the job and although an unexpected path, it is something that she enjoys. My sister had a high paying job that she hated and she came home and cried every day. That is many people’s reality. Even when some things work out well, like your wife’s job, there are usually disappointments somewhere in life that we all have to deal with.
Perhaps you are just wistful that you don’t have kids yet. You don’t really want her to go around being depressed that she isn’t a mom & SAHM but seeing her on this other path is emphasizing that loss for you. Just keep communication open and be supportive. You have many, many years together and there will be different stages and jobs and situations that you don’t even know about yet. Just keep being loving and supporting each other. Good luck.
Comment by jks — February 10, 2010 @ 3:56 pm
Derek, thanks for this.
We’re not at a point yet where we’ve even begun on our Plan A. We don’t know what Plan B is. But I could definitely foresee a situation where I end up being the main earner. The opposite is also very possible, as well. But I definitely don’t see myself ever stopping the work I want to do someday to stay home full time. I don’t think my husband would be opposed to it, and could even do some work from home (he’s in graphic design too!).
It sucks that even with someone as forward-thinking as yourself, the dregs of our cultural wounds can manifest themselves. My husband is very open to different ideas, but I’ve never thought about what effect it might have on him, to not fill that stereotypical, American, provider role.
I might have to send him here to read this one.
Comment by Hammie (formerly Natalie K.) — February 10, 2010 @ 4:33 pm
Hey Derek, respect.
Thanks for kicking off a conversation that has shown me that I am not alone,that so many of us face frustration at not fulfilling our own and other’s expectations.We expect so much of our mostly ordinary little lives,and often struggle to come to terms with what it takes to survive.Eventually,I guess the hard stuff just becomes our lives.
I like these stories.They seem so much braver than those of people who trample others underfoot to achieve their own agenda.I like you people.
Comment by wayfarer — February 10, 2010 @ 4:48 pm
Derek, thanks for your heartfelt post. As much as we mentally agree with feminism, it really is hard to escape those gender role trappings, isn’t it? My husband and I have taken turns earning more than each other during our marriage, though neither of us ever earned significantly more than the other. My husband is as much a feminist as I am, but there is something ingrained in him that makes him feel a LOT of pressure to provide for our family, especially after our daughter was born. The thought, “I have to do my best at work because my family’s depending on me,” seems to be constantly on his mind, but honestly, I don’t find myself thinking that way in my job very often. In reality, our family depends on both our jobs, but he worries much more than I do about it. These feelings seemed to intensify when I was pregnant. I wonder if it’s cultural (i.e., Proclamation on the Family and all that) or biological (i.e., since he cannot carry the fetus or breastfeed, he focuses on a more material way of caring for the child), or both.
At any rate, congratulations to your wife on her promotion!
Comment by Sofia — February 10, 2010 @ 5:06 pm
I think it’s great to sometimes push our spouses a little if we know they will be happier in the long run. My Husband would have loved to stay home but I said NO you have to go to school first. We have two children and I am in the process of trying to get into Grad school. Once I have a great job, great then he can do what makes him happy. Stay at home whatever…. but I just think education is really important. He is happy about Grad school now, and is even thinking of getting a PHD when I get a job. I think he will just end up at home but it is still worth it!
Comment by CZ — February 10, 2010 @ 5:37 pm
One other point I was going to add was that I think it’s sad that sometimes the expectation to “provide” leads men to go into fields that they don’t really enjoy. When I was an undergrad, I got a few people asking me, “What are you going to do with that English degree?” but for my newly married, English major brother, this is an almost daily occurrence. Despite all the annoying aspects of gender expectations for women, at least perhaps we have more freedom to study what really intrests us and/or to choose less lucrative career fields that we love. Derek, I think library science sounds like a fascinating field, as does architecture. It’s great that both of you are in fields that you are good at and enjoy.
Comment by Sofia — February 10, 2010 @ 6:02 pm
I’m probably sexist in a lot of ways that I doubt I’ll ever change. But I don’t think I’d ever have a problem with my wife making more than me. All our money goes into one big pot, and as far as I’m concerned, the bigger the pot, the better for me, regardless of who’s putting in the dough or in what proportion. Then again, I’ve never actually been in that situation, so maybe I’m kidding myself.
Comment by jimbob — February 10, 2010 @ 8:05 pm
Thanks for all the comments and well-wishes. It has been great to read the stories of those who relate on some level or another. And I appreciate all the support.
I wanted to make sure I wasn’t giving the wrong impression about Luv. She has never communicated to me, directly or passively, anything to the effect of “You idiot! If only you were a real man, I could be a stay-at-home-Mom like I wanted!” Her honest statements were never intended as barbs. She has been far more supportive of me and my trials than I deserve. All negativity is coming solely from within.
Nor were her expectations extravagant. She’s never wanted or expected a husband who provided a life in the jet set, and our material desires have only grown more modest as we’ve become more sensitive to affluenza.
Tanks for the empathy on my depression. Things have been much better the past few years. While depression is never really cured, I do seem to have gotten a handle on the issue. I’ve experienced no more than mild episodes for the past three or four years. Let’s pray that continues.
re: 9
I attempted to double major in history and graphic design, but the depression wreaked havoc on my academic career, and I was lucky to get out with a BA in graphic design. Despite the degree, I’ve never felt very confident about my skills in that field. Every time I’ve tried to put together a portfolio to seriously pursue that work, I’ve ended up paralyzed and discouraged by my quality, and start spiraling downward. I’ve lucked into a few freelance projects, but that’s all. At this point, I feel very self-conscious about the thought of trying to break into the field with such a spotty history.
For the past four plus years I’ve worked as a librarian at the local library. I recently moved to another position there which I don’t like as much, but there is more potential to eventually take some initiative to spearhead some projects, and therefore perhaps I’ll have a better chance to move up the ladder faster.
I think I could be reasonably comfortable with either being a sole provider or a SaHD. In my ideal world, both Luv and I would work part-time (enough to make ends meet, to keep stretching ourselves and our talents, and to help each of us have an outside world into which we can invite the other to share), perhaps from home, and would share equally in the child-rearing and homemaking aspects of our household.
re: 14
I know that’s sound advice, Mary, and I appreciate the thought. But it is much more difficult to apply than it sounds–that is, after all, the nature of depression.
re: 21
True…But had I been able to get on some decent career track, we may have been able to afford the medical services necessary to find out what’s preventing our pregnancy, or to have started the adoption process.
In any case, while I decided that the personal angle would be an interesting way to address the issue, I think this scenario presents some opportunities for discussion about some wider concepts than just moi. ZD Eve, April, and others have mentioned the disconnect between expectations and reality. How do we reconcile those differences? Though another poster may soon be addressing this more directly, how about the ramifications of the trends in income and education? Is there validity to the argument that the blurring of roles leads ultimately to a more secure, happier marriage? Do traditional gender roles and expectations impact us in ways we don’t recognize? Are there at times that we assume a man’s actions or attitude are rooted in patriarchy which may not really be directly about patriarchy?
re: 10/11
and
Thanks for sharing, L and Katie. you both point to the friction which is often caused by the shift in income and roles. That is one important issue which I thought this post might stir up conversation on. Why is this so hard for many men? Why might your husband and your ex be bothered by your divergence from the traditional gender roles? Is it that these gender roles are so ingrained in our culture (US culture in general, and Mormon culture specifically), and to challenge those roles challenges their identity as men? Do they assume that, whatever women interested in careers might say, deep down they really just want to be a mom? How do we become more comfortable with the more mutable roles which our modern economic situations seem to be creating?
FWIW, I don’t think either of you should have to compromise what you love and want to make your lifemates–current or potential–happy. Then again, would that be so different from what my wife has done? Sigh.
I do think that is a serious flaw, one which not only cause tension for women who decide to sidestep that system, but also causes heartache and pain for the women who are left vulnerable by that system when tragedy strikes and they no longer have a husband on whom to rely financially. And it also calls into question what it means for women to prepare. Our faith has long called on women to get educations when possible so as to have something to fall back on. But if a woman gets an education, and then does nothing with it for twenty years while she is a SAHM, will she really be prepared to start providing should circumstances dictate?
Comment by Derek — February 10, 2010 @ 10:53 pm
Derek, as I was pondering over this post today, this is exactly what I thought: I bet that with Luv establishing herself in a great career with a strong earning potential, it will enable her to work part-time if she chooses when children come along. Perhaps this is the Lord’s long way of getting you to where you want to be?
Other than that, my thoughts were similar to jks’. Thanks for an honest and heartfelt post. (Don’t be so hard on yourself.)
Comment by Stephanie — February 10, 2010 @ 11:12 pm
Derek,yes, I think these gender roles are so ingrained in my husband’s culture (he’s Japanese, from a very traditional family, and we are now living in Tokyo), and to challenge those roles does challenge his identity as a man in this society.
I also think that in our case, I have proved a happy ending is still possible (so far, that is — of course I can’t definitively say that until we get to the “end,” but we’ve been married 19 years now). I always say, two people who are wrong for each other in SO many ways somehow figured out a way to make it right!
So I try not to waste too much time, musing about what might have been, and try to stay focused on how it’s turning out.
(Also, I’m not LDS, I’m Catholic, but was drawn to this Web site because I recognize lots of similarities in the cultures — I just started commenting here recently after lurking for several years.)
Comment by L. — February 11, 2010 @ 5:51 am
Derek, I wanted to comment on two points you brought up. One is the study’s interesing finding that women’s higher earning has, on the whole, resulted in happier marriages and fewer divorces. My personal experience would support that conclusion, but it seems to fly in the face of about 100 YW lessons, General Conference talks, etc. that warn about all the family troubles that will result from working moms. In fact, most of the data I’ve seen show that whether moms work outside the home or not has no significant impact on children’s well-being or academic success. Rather, the family income level is a much better predictor of a child’s future success. My intent here is not to belittle SAHMs or to say that this one study is infallible in its conclusions. But I did find it interesting and would be curious what others thought.
The second point I wanted to comment on was the one you made about women being encouraged to get as much education as possible, so they will have something to fall back on if at some future point the family needs their income. I have always thought this advice was kind of unrealistic. There aren’t a lot of professions that allow you to get a degree, stop working for 5, 10, 15, or 20 years, and then jump back in. It might be easier if you work for several years and then have children, so at least you would have some contacts in your field and some experience to put on your resume. But the church generally seems to frown on waiting either to get married or to have children. While you could certainly make the case that SAHMs learn resourcefulness, patience, frugality, organization, and other skills useful for the workplace, most employers will not value them at the same level as someone who has spent those same years proving herself in the industry. The opportunity cost when a woman quits her job for a significant period of time is great. I think YW leaders and others should be honest with young women about the statistics (i.e., how many women in our society work out of economic necessity), the options available to them, the opportunity costs associated with each, and give practical examples of how people have made things work for them (i.e., SAHMs who manage to keep a hand in their field, or people who work from home, people in fields that are flexible with part-time or telecommuting, or–heaven forbid!–working moms who still put their family first and are able to make it work).
I would love to live in your perfect world where my husband and I each have meaningful, well-paid work that we could do part-time. Maybe someday!
Comment by Sofia — February 11, 2010 @ 9:05 am
I think that there aren’t any magic bullets to any of these questions, but lots of practical things that would add up to a shift in mentality and acceptance… better communication in marriage (verbalizing what you really want deep down, validating what your partner communicates) and especially before marriage.
Also, I’m concerned about the caricature presented of fathers in TV, especially sitcoms - goofy, slightly incompetent, never involved or on top of things, etc. If that’s the image our boys are growing up seeing of “fathers”, it would make sense to me that they are trying to cling to something to give them worth - and that often turns out to be monetary providing. We talk a lot about a girl’s self image, but not so much about boys’, and I wonder if that is part of the problem.
Comment by Enna — February 11, 2010 @ 10:00 am
I grew up thinking I would be a SAHM, but once our kids were in school, I returned to teaching to provide necessary income and health insurance for our family. Besides the income, my teaching broadened my world. I worked with stimulating colleagues, got a master’s degree, and had opportunities for travel I would have missed if financial need hadn’t pushed me beyond the limits of our family.
My husband’s lower-paying job was a gateway to a larger world for me. And our kdis benefited from having a mother who was an active participant in the world beyond our neighborhood and ward.
Luv’s career may not be the path she would originally have chosen, but I’m sure she’ll be glad she has it.
Comment by Course Correction — February 11, 2010 @ 11:06 am
I remember talking to a friend during a difficult time for her in her marriage, and she said, “I didn’t sign up for this”.
Later on I thought about all the things in my life that I wanted to say that I didn’t sign up for.
The truth is we signed up for whatever comes. Life rarely works out the way we think it is going to, and we have to get away from the idea that what we expected is what was best. I think no matter where we are in life we’re always going to wonder about “what ifs”, but we just have to take life as it comes and enjoy what we’ve been given. It would be easier to do that if it weren’t so ingrained in our brains that men should provide and women stay home with children.
How do we teach that as the general “rule” in the church without making any other options seem “less than ideal”. The ideal thing is what works for your family.
Good luck to you Derek, and Luv, I hope that this promotion opens up some opportunities for you both. You certainly deserve all the best you can get.
Comment by Alliegator — February 11, 2010 @ 11:49 am
Course Correction, Thanks for that post. It is inspiring to hear how a women can use the education she has to better her family. But I often hear that women should not put school the community or anything before their children. Perhaps each child reacts differently to a Mother whom gets a education. Some children may feel neglected whilst others inspired. Do you find this with your children? As I ponder the idea of Grad school and working I wonder is it better for my children to see me as a active participant or is it better for me to be the center of their world. It seems the church would say ,”center of their world” because I have always learned at church being too involved in the community or activism is not such a good example if it takes you away from the home. Which I think is silly because how much time do women spend doing Activities for RS? Anyways did you have small children as you went to school? Did you go full or part-time?
Comment by cz — February 11, 2010 @ 11:50 am
Derek, not sure if you’ve ever read Kathleen Gerson’s work (Hard Choices and No Man’s Land), but in terms of wider application, she talks about what you’re going through…
Comment by SarahNicole — February 11, 2010 @ 12:35 pm
re: 36
Welcome to the contributing FMH community, L! I think I can safely say we respect and appreciate the contributions from “outsiders.” It’s good to be reminded that this issue isn’t restricted to the LDS community, or even the “Western World.” Based on your experience, would you say that there has been less progress in Japanese society in softening the gender restrictions and roles?
I love your line “two people who are wrong for each other in SO many ways somehow figured out a way to make it right!” Its very encouraging. I’d love to hear more examples of how you and your husband have reconciled major differences.
re: 37
Yes, that does seem to be a major point of dissonance, doesn’t it? And at the end of Marriage, a History, Stephanie Coontz seems to make a similar point about the stability of two-income households near the end of her book if I recall correctly, In many ways I think it makes a lot of sense.
re: 38
There’s an interesting thought that I’d never considered. I agree that there’s no magic bullet or easy solution to the question, but the more we consider and ask, the more we might come up with great insights like yours which we can address.
(or maybe I just like navel gazing…)
re: 42
I have Gerson’s most recent book, The Unfinished Revolution: How a New Generation is Reshaping Family, Work, and Gender in America, on my reading list, but I’ve yet to read it or anything else by her. The ones you mention sound interesting–I’ve added them to the reading list as well. Thanks!
**
I’m responding to these next couple as devil’s advocate, and not because I disagree with the comments. I’m just trying to look at all the angles and consider this in the context of the larger issue than just my own situation.
re: 35
Its an interesting thought. But then again, why is where I want to be more important than where Luv wants to be (SaHM)? Why would the Lord be moving me in my direction when supposedly Luv’s desire is closer to His intended roles for us?
re: 39
I really appreciate hearing about your experience, Course, and I echo CZ’s thoughts.
I’ve had similar hopes for this path with Luv. As I mentioned in the original post, succeeding in school really helped Luv become much more confident and much more excited about the world. I hope that her career will continue to expand things for her. But I hesitate to embrace that line too much–if I do, am I just being selfish? Is it just a rationalization for easing up the pressure on myself to get my career on track?
Comment by Derek — February 11, 2010 @ 1:19 pm
Comment 40: I think how we teach the “general rule” is to refer to principles rather than practices. We should teach that children need to have their physical/emotional/spiritual needs met to the best of our ability, and that we should as parents be willing to make sacrifices to do that. I believe that principle deeply.
How families figure that out is up to them. I think focusing on the principles helps us avoid false decisions like in #41–should I go to school or be the “center of the world” for my kids. The question should be this–can my kids get their physical/emotional/spiritual needs met if I go to school/volunteer in the community/work while my husband says home/scrapbook 17 hours a day/whathaveyou etc.
I do not think you need to be the “center of their world” to meet needs–in fact, that may prevent them from getting some of their real needs met!
FWIW, I make more than my husband, and got a PhD with 2 kids, and had another one after. And I think my kids get their needs met, and yes, we’ve made a lot of sacrifices to do it. But i do spend a lot of time agonizing about the details too.
Comment by cms — February 11, 2010 @ 1:51 pm
Apart of what was already discussed, this is hard to respond to on its own. In a bad economy or even a regular one, what do you say to a person who is having a great career experience while yours stagnates?
Comment by cchrissyy — February 11, 2010 @ 2:39 pm
Sometimes I think Heavenly Father is more hands-on than we imagine. But most of the time, I think he sits back and lets us work things out for ourselves.
I think what any couple has to do in that kind of situation, is to sit down and talk about what each would like, and how they can best get there. Whether that means someday Luv is a full-time stay at home mom, or whether that means she’s the sole breadwinner, or somewhere in between, you have to talk about it and figure out what you both really want, and what you can both live with.
It’s also good to try to remember that you’re a team, and you can’t view it as one party dashing the dreams of the other. Neither of you may be having your dreams fulfilled the way you expected, but that doesn’t mean you can find new dreams. You both work together to do what needs to be done.
Comment by Alliegator — February 11, 2010 @ 3:27 pm
(I think that’s the whole purpose of having an eternal partner, and that to me, it comforting.)
Comment by Alliegator — February 11, 2010 @ 3:28 pm
Anything that doesn’t force a marriage into a box is going to make it happier, in my experience. Since every person is different, including the variance in dreams/goals within the so-called gender specific roles and those attempting to live outside those rigid constructs,-any societal pressure for a couple to fulfill predetermined roles is going to cause undue stress. Sure, there may be some who can fit into those roles and accomodate the dissonance, but for those who cannot, the guilt and regret can wear a relationship down and I consider it unecessary. I believe that part of the plan is for me to discover, know and develop myself…not try to fit myself or my husband into some narrow stereotype that doesn’t suit either of us.
I’ve made more money than my husband and I have made less. My first husband had more trouble over me being more educated and intellectually curious than he was- the money was incidental, just more salt in the wound. It also bothered him that I was more adept at some of his perceived male areas of competency- home repair, landscaping, shooting, self-defense and travel experience (don’t even ask me why he thought that was related to being male). It strained and challenged our relationship because he chose to resent my experiences rather than obtain some of his own. I learned that while I did not need to link my life to someone with the same or similar experiences, I did need to be with someone who has a sense of adventure and a determination to grow.
Get two people together, they experience the divide between the goals and the timing of the realization of them pretty quickly. I know that when I was young, I thought that everything was possible if I wanted it badly enough and was determined enough to go after it. It seems that most of my life, my lessons have involved learning otherwise.
Whatever the various levels of support I’ve received from the men in my life at these crossroads, my choices have been my own and they have all involved compromises to accomodate my financial situation, my family’s needs, my own needs and adaptability of my personal goals.It eventually sunk in that not all dreams were achievable in the space of time I am granted in this life and that significant conflicts arise to challenge my ideals.
By far, one of the most painful parts of being married is an awareness that all my decisions will directly affect my partner. Sometimes plans need to be deferred, adapted or occasionally abandoned when other factors demand it. Sometimes we know that we have unwittingly contributed to our partner’s adaptations…limited their goals or dreams in some way and it really hurts to know that, even when it’s unintentional.
Death, divorce, loss of health. They are cheats, they can be cruel instructors and I’ve taken those classes.
Taking a long time to make my point- which is, we give up some things, we change gears and we adapt…or not. How well we adapt to those adjustments to our original plans largely determines our personal happiness, in my experience. We can treat these detours as valuable learning experiences (and mine always were highly educational and have truly fleshed out many aspects of my life I never would have explored if I hadn’t been sidetracked)…or, we can rant at the heavens, kicking and screaming and prolong the agony indefinitely while we have our tantrum. (That was the tact I took after Paul was killed for a while, and trust me, while it was highly instructional, I do not recommend it for any significant length of time.) I think our capability for self-examination and reflection matters a lot too. I can make a lot more progress if I can sit down and figure out what I’ve contributed to a situation so that I can change my own behavior and make the needed adjustments.
Comment by Kimberly — February 11, 2010 @ 4:46 pm
This is most definitly a trend right now. Especially among my circle of friends who all got married ‘later’ in life (ie 27+)
I’ve been the high income earner in our family since we got married. After our first child I tried the stay at home mom thing.
I went crazy. Not hypothecially either. If I was to stay home full time I would need medication. Plus my husband was overly stressed because his job was in jepordy( he’s since been laid off). My daughter’s mommy wasn’t all there, and her parent’s marriage was stressed.
We decided that having parents with a good marriage and a mommy with self-esteem was much more valuable than a stay at home mom.
Luckily we belong to a church that believes in personal revolation.
Comment by salt h2o — February 11, 2010 @ 6:34 pm
Wise words, Kimberly. There are few things as painful as realizing you’ve unintentionally hurt, discouraged, or stunted the person you care most about.
Comment by Hammie (formerly Natalie K.) — February 11, 2010 @ 7:19 pm
Excellent post, Derek. My dream job is to work in a library wearing my pink tutu, so you’re living my dream
Comment by ECS — February 11, 2010 @ 8:37 pm
Hammie/Natalie K…your new moniker is throwing me for a loop. It’s like I’m getting used to your new married name and I keep thinking, “oh, it’s Natalie K”.
Comment by Kimberly — February 11, 2010 @ 9:02 pm
Haha. Sorry Kimberly. There were just too many Natalie’s floating around, and I felt like people were confusing me with some of them.
My maiden name was Hamilton, I’m really dramatic (a ham, har har har), and my childhood nickname was Hammie…. does that help?
Comment by Hammie (formerly Natalie K.) — February 11, 2010 @ 9:56 pm