Feminist Mormon Housewives » Mormons and Healthy Marriage

Mormons and Healthy Marriage

By: fMhLisa - February 24, 2010

So it’s true that we Mormons tend to get married young and have babies right away. Also true that we are very much encouraged to live traditional gender roles, the women nurturing and domesticating while the men provide and preside.

We Mormons view marriage and family among our most important of spiritual undertakings (off topic, but boy howdy how problematic for Mormons who never marry). So I guess we want to get started on that undertaking as soon as possible, and see it as ideal to live marriage out as traditionally as possible. With the idea, I suppose that these things will make our marriages strong.

But I was listening to a report (I think it was NPR but I don’t have time to dig it up) about how the most stable marriages, the marriages in which partners express the most satisfaction and happiness? The same people who are most egalitarian in their attitudes toward gender roles.

Also studies are clear that marriages of those over 25 are much more stable and less likely to end in divorce. And mothers over 25 tend to raise children who are happier and more successful, and be more confident and satisfied in the role. So it made me wonder, why we marriage-loving Mormons don’t encourage more healthy-marriage behavior. Why encourage young marriage and strict gender roles if these things don’t result in strong marriages?

Of course, Mormon marriages, or at least temple marriages, are a bit less likely to end in divorce. I know my Mother hypothesized that this was because temple-married Mormons tend to share the same focus and goals with the church at the center of their lives. I’ll buy that. By and large, I see Mormon culture as pretty fantastic for strong healthy families, it’s what we do.

So it seems by marrying in the temple, by being so culturally focused on family (or so I hypothesize), we Mormons have one leg up already, but I wonder if we couldn’t be even better at this marriage and family thing if we encouraged kids to get some maturity, to get to know each other, to get some education under the belt before tying the knot. Even among temple marriages, the younger they are, the more likely they are to go wrong.

This does present one rather unwinnable quandary however, in that it would widen the already drastically widened gap between the onset of puberty and the onset of sexual activity. That’s a lot to ask of young people. But if those getting-married-so-they-can-do-it marriages are ending in divorce anyway . . .

And I wonder too, if we couldn’t have the same emphasis on strong families, but make our families even stronger by emphasizing that both parents need to nurture their children. And it seems to me that families will be even safer and more stable if both parents can provide (I know this here family is screwed if dh drops dead)(note to self: get more life insurance on dh).

It just didn’t really make sense to me, why encourage behavior that makes marriage less stable when marriage is so very important to us? Am looking at it wrong? Am I missing something?

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The problem is it isn’t as simple as “young people are more likely to have problems.”

For example, I saw one study that showed that those with college educations are more likely to have successful marriages.

But, for most non-members, college postpones things like marriage. For example I am graduate student and most of my peers say they are to busy to consider getting married right now.

My point is, it could be education, not age, that makes a bigger difference but that education postpones marriage.

Actually, the whole point of this comment is to say: Just because happy marriages correlate with age, doesn’t mean age is actually in any way a factor. It could be the underlying factor is something that also influences age like being in college.

You may shoot yourself in the foot because you tell people not to get married until later in life if age is not the cause of a happy marriage but only a coincidental correlation.

Comment by Joseph Smidt — February 24, 2010 @ 4:46 pm
Another example: many people are married young because someone got pregnant on accident.

So, is the issue they are too young or is the issue these people are not living the most responsible lifestyle? Or is it they like each other enough to have sex but would never have gotten married if it wasn’t for the pregnancy.

So again, is age really the factor for happiness for these types of people, or is it more complicated?

Comment by Joseph Smidt — February 24, 2010 @ 4:51 pm
There is so much focus in the Young Women’s lessons on marriage and motherhood that I think we push our young women towards marriage when maybe they aren’t sure what they want out of life. My 17 year old daughter is sick of the lessons she hears in YW and wishes they would focus more on preparing for college and learning to value talents and finding worth in yourself. She has no interest in getting married at 18 or going to BYU to get her “MRS degree”. I think marriage and family is very important and I love my husband and children, but I want my children to get married for the right reasons not becasue it is a cutural expectation.

Comment by cd — February 24, 2010 @ 5:04 pm
I think you’re asking very good questions, Lisa. A question along the same lines is why people who believe 2 parent nuclear families are best for kids are against sex ed and birth control for teenagers. And against abortion, of course. There’s a lot of denial going on, I think. Denial that living the commandments - i.e. no sex until marriage, temple marriage, not “postponing” (whatever that means) - could lead to anything but happiness. I don’t know. I do think there are lots of happy families in the church, so something is working. It just doesn’t work all the time.

Comment by Emily U — February 24, 2010 @ 5:05 pm
Some of the marriage studies by economists emphasize that a big part of the bubble in divorce rates in the 70s and 80s (cuz divorce rates are going back down now) came when couples shifted from more traditional marriages where people married to complement each other to more modern marriages where people married to share interests and goals. (They call those hedonic marriages.) Marriage rates were okay when both parties ALWAYS expected the other partner to be different–you nurture and I’ll provide and we’ll both respect each other’s contributions. My grandmother’s marriage fits that. And divorce rates are going back down now as people marry more similar partners–someone with similar education levels and interests. The trouble came when people got married under one model and then wanted a different one as times have changed.

So I wonder what it also means that we encourage people to hang on to an older style of marriage. May still work for couples who can hang onto that model for 50 years and both believe in it, but there’s trouble when people change.

Comment by cms — February 24, 2010 @ 5:06 pm
I would venture to say that most young couples in the church are living in a more egalitarian style anyway. I know that when I was in a BYU married ward (I just moved away last year) there were almost no couples who had strict divisions of labor. Many women (even mothers) worked or were going to classes full time, and pretty much all of the men did housework and child raising. I can only think of one who didn’t and the wife was pretty unhappy about it (the husband apparently complained to her about how all of our husbands were making him look bad). So even if the church hasn’t changed what it’s saying, a lot of people, especially younger people, are living more equally anyway.

Comment by Melynna — February 24, 2010 @ 5:08 pm
“I know that when I was in a BYU married ward (I just moved away last year) there were almost no couples who had strict divisions of labor.”

I completely agree. At least not on purpose. Sometimes some people prefere to do various things but in my BYU ward there was no talk like it was expected.

Comment by Joseph Smidt — February 24, 2010 @ 5:12 pm
I think that it’s not just sexual expectation that makes young LDS kids jump into marriage, even though I do think think it’s a determining factor. I think the problem is more culturally based.

Most of the advice I have heard from Church leaders, and definetly all the the advice from my parents, was that marriage was a sacred thing and therefore a HUGE decision. “Putting one’se house in order,” according to my dad, extended to the decision when, where, how, and why to get married. I didn’t get married until I had graduated from university and am able to work so my husband can focus on his degree. I plan on working even after we have kids (which won’t happen - God willing - until he’s done with school and working as well, three years down the road).

I think cultural pressure comes to bear. We are a progressive faith, the next step is important to us (birth, baptism, education/mission, marriage, family, endure to the end, death, resurrention…) there’s always the next thing we’re supposed to accomplish and we’re in a hurry to get it done. I think this is a contributing factor towards young, early, and quick marriages/ child-birth, but I’m not sure what the solution is when these marriages and families prove less stable, except maybe more education about the consequences of rushing eternal decisions. But I don’t know how effective it would be against cultural mores.

Comment by C. — February 24, 2010 @ 5:18 pm
Honestly, I think Mormon families encourage these things more so than some other cultures…at least in this generation. Especially both parents nurturing the children, and to get an education. Its all you hear about nowadays. I mean, most Mormon girls have their bachelor’s degree by the time they’re 21, right when their RM gets home and they tie the knot. So just cause they’re having babies young, doesn’t mean they don’t have an education.

Comment by Olive — February 24, 2010 @ 5:18 pm
I do think its a problem for the guy however, he usually is just starting on his degree and then you’ve got the young families on welfare dilemma.

Comment by Olive — February 24, 2010 @ 5:19 pm
Well I can testify that being an “older”* mother has made a MASSIVE difference for me. I was absolutely terrified when we started trying at 20, but we started trying because we felt like we were supposed to. In those ten years I’ve learned so much I apply to my mothering, I know how to cope with stress better, I’ve grown confident enough in my abilities to roll my eyes at criticism instead of taking it to heart. I’m having the time of my life even with a pretty challenging road and I can’t imagine that 20 year old me would have felt the same way. Those ten years allowed me to become self-possessed enough to be able to give my child what he needs without losing myself. I had NO idea who I was at 20. That’s not a universal decree, by any means, but I think it’s sure common.

*That always makes me giggle. Having my first at 30 makes me ancient at church, but I am ALWAYS the youngest when I get together with other groups.

Comment by Reese Dixon — February 24, 2010 @ 5:19 pm
PS - I agree with 6 and 7. I think the Church also suffers from an age gap between its leaders and the majority of its practicioners. We’re the product of different generations. Which doesn’t make their advice or counsel less pertinent, but we have been raised with more options and support than they were should we choose to follow different, less traditional paths.

Comment by C. — February 24, 2010 @ 5:20 pm
Perhaps the newly married persons of today are the children and grandchildren of the lessons taught by the 2nd wave of feminists.

considering the initial question of why do we encourage marriage sooner rather than later…. could it be marketing? “All the good ones will be taken by the time I’m 25 and I’ll be left choosing from the second string.” (and that goes for women and men).

I had just made 23 and my DH had just made 27 when we were married… 23 years ago. omg … that’s half my life! I need a fatty diet coke…..

Comment by Mary Magdalene — February 24, 2010 @ 5:21 pm
A good marriage, to me, is not necessarily a financially stable one. Our society constantly pushes this!
There really is no magic formula to insure that your marriage will not end in divorce.

A marriage works when the couple is in harmony. This means that both spouses have an understanding of the other’s spiritual, emotional, sexual and financial expectations. These expectations should be made clear before marriage and I think that in the LDS culture people tend to have that figured out at an earlier age than most other Americans do.

For a couple who chooses to have a homemaker and a sole provider, I do think it is wise for them to have a plan B. But that is my own opinion.

Comment by Nonanon — February 24, 2010 @ 5:24 pm
I feel strongly on this issue. I hated the constant feeling in my BYU singles’ ward a few years back, where it felt like our leaders were trying to match us up with anyone of the opposite gender, so they could get us ‘married off and crossed off the list.’ We felt more like cattle than people. Even my roommate who got engaged to her now-husband after just 4 days after they met, was encouraged by our then-bishop to “do whatever feels right”. (Needless to say, sadly none of us were all that surprised when she came to visit us 2 weeks after she got married, lonely and in tears, saying that she ‘had to beg her husband to be intimate’ if she was feeling “in the mood” - we had had suspicions all along that he was playing for the other team).

I also really take issue with people that say “Well the church says don’t put off having kids, but we’re dirt-poor struggling college students, so we’ll just get off birth control and then just get on WIC and Medicaid when wifey stays at home and hubby is a full-time student with no job.” I think the church is unknowingly encouraging people to rely too much on the government, which I feel is very dangerous. This month’s VT message is all about self-reliance - shouldn’t a big part of self-reliance be “to everything there is a season and a time”, where we should, I don’t know…build the nest before laying eggs?

Also: Just because temple marriages don’t have as many divorces doesn’t mean they’re necessarily all happy in their marriages. I’m not trying to sound negative or bleak; I just happen to have quite a few temple-married friends that I’ve recently found out have had very serious problems in their marriages.

I also recently read an article about how depressed women are in Utah - particularly Utah Valley, and how the prescription medication rate is exploding. You can read it here:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/06/03/eveningnews/main510918.shtml

Anyway, I’m getting a bit on a tangent, but I agree with you: I agree with the quote that “People who are happiest in their marriages are people who were also happy being single”. I think most men and women need time to grow, experience life, mature, get educated, etc. before getting married. Notice I said “most” because there are the rare circumstances where two 18-year old kids got married and they’re still blissfully happy to this day. I’m just saying that’s an exception; not the rule.

Comment by granolagirl — February 24, 2010 @ 5:26 pm
Reese,
Your comment made me teary-eyed. Can you please call my MIL and mother and the rest of the family that is pressuring me to have children. I’m 24 and not ready for children yet and nobody seems to understand why.

Comment by shannon j — February 24, 2010 @ 5:33 pm
EmilyU…I’m curious how you can say that parents are in denial when they try to teach their teenagers to wait for sex until marriage, and how it doesn’t lead to happiness. Of course its no guarantee, but don’t you think a pregnant teen with a shotgun wedding is much more likely to be unhappy in life? Or how about a teen who gets a secret abortion? If the studies show that couples who wait until they’re older to marry, to have children, and are married in the temple are more successful, then doesn’t it make sense to teach your children to wait? Isn’t that what this whole post is about?

Or I guess the difference is that you think teens waiting to have sex is just being in denial. So its fine to encourage them to wait to marry and have kids, but not to wait to have sex. I always have to cock my eyebrow when I hear these things because no birth control is 100% effective, so even if a teenager is using it perfectly (which is doubtful) they still have the risk of getting pregnant. Which can lead to a myriad of poor outcomes, such as the parents not finishing high school, the parents not staying married, the high rate of their children becoming pregnant as teens or being incarcerated. THOSE are the situations where its pretty much a guarantee you won’t be happy. And I can attest to that, because I started my adult life the same way, and its been anything but easy or happy.

Comment by Olive — February 24, 2010 @ 5:34 pm
#15 - I’ve heard a lot of people attempt to teach the notion “if you lay the eggs than the nest will build itself.” Kind of like “if you pay your tithing then you’ll never be wanting.”

I do wonder if temple marriages lead to a slightly less divorce rate because there are slightly more people who refuse to consider a divorce because of their perspective on the finality of a temple marriage.

I also wonder if a great advantage or disadvantage (depending on your opinion) is that those who are not yet finished maturing are forced to build their maturity on and around their spouse - a built-in, interdependence of sorts.

Comment by Janell the Great — February 24, 2010 @ 5:38 pm
I’m a current BYU-I student. A freshman, to be exact. I agree with #15; sometimes it feels like they’re trying to marry us off as quickly as possible. If anything, being a student here has made me more of a ranty straw feminist than hanging around with my extremely liberal high school friends ever could.

My 19-year-old cousin, who is getting married this spring, set me up on an extremely awkward blind date with a really weird guy. It was the first date of my life. He kept using the word “couple,” he tried to race me to the car door so he could open it for me, and he tried to speak for me when I did, in fact, want to play Apples to Apples. The single RM’s here are “wife-hunting,” and it’s made me get a decoy ring.

I’ve also been “fortunate” enough to witness the drama between my 18-year-old roommate and her long-distance boyfriend. They’ve been dating since New Years. A couple of weeks ago, he proposed to her and she accepted. After two weeks of deliberation and constant angsting, she broke off the engagement. She knew she was too young, he hasn’t been on a mission yet, and every third party who knows about this situation can clearly see that they are NOT ready to be married.

This is the kind of thing that BYU-I marriage culture leads to. I for one plan on being at LEAST 25 when I start looking to get married.

Comment by Amanda C — February 24, 2010 @ 5:45 pm
I married at 22 and felt pretty much like at old maid by then, partially because at BYU, it seemed that every fireside and practically every talk pushed marriage. I wanted to focus on education and career but the constant message of marriage made me question my worth as an individual… and made it depressing when I wasn’t dating “enough”. My parents also had some strange campaign going on to get me married… and would always ask if I was doing my hair and make up… what my prospects were, etc… and they even paid for trips to the tanning salon… their idea! I think it induced a fear in me to hurry and get married… and well before I was ready, to someone who also wasn’t ready either.

I’ve taught my kids to wait to get married, to take their time in finding the right person, to be ready before committing for eternity. My son will be fine, but my daughter… if she doesn’t marry early, what are her chances of marrying a nice Mormon boy? Out of Mormonism, later marriages are the norm, so finding your soul mate might be possible at any age… but every Mormon woman that I personally know that married past age 25 ended up marrying a divorced Mormon man with children. Most of them are happy, so I’m not knocking the choice, but that’s certainly not the fantasy image I had growing up. So, if Mormon culture continues to push young marriage like they did with me, what are my daughter’s chances?

Comment by Ahhh... — February 24, 2010 @ 5:52 pm
#19. Ah, the decoy ring is a topic of its own. It’s amusing how many girls I’ve known who own one; myself included.

I was similar. The Utah pressures to marry put me in a field where I much preferred to do the opposite. I figured I’d let all those people who wanted to get married sudden, fast, and young could weed themselves out. I guess “wait until the like-minded ones are left” myth is the correlated to, “all the good ones are gone by 25.”

Comment by Janell the Great — February 24, 2010 @ 5:52 pm
My two bits before the conflagration begins in earnest. I still find the LDS paring of reproduction and salvation (okay, exaltation) fascinating. I realize that other religious traditions also encourage frequent reproduction, but much of that seems to be from a motivation of gaining influence on the world and out-competing people of other faiths or non-faiths. There’s definitely an element of influence and out-compete in the LDS tradition as well, but we take it up a notch. Marriage and procreation are seen as prerequisites for salvation, if not the process by which we are saved. Are their other faith traditions which suggest that one cannot be saved without reproducing? I’d be interested to hear more. PS- I enjoyed reading the sidebar link titles “Unprepared for Motherhood? There’s no point in doing good badly” in juxtaposition.

Comment by Moniker Challenged — February 24, 2010 @ 5:57 pm
shannonj, you just send em my way. I’ll poke em right in the eye.

Comment by Reese Dixon — February 24, 2010 @ 5:58 pm
While I agree that we should not be pressured to marry young, I think it is a little simplistic to say that marrying young leads to less happiness. I was all about telling people that I was not going to BYU to get my MRS. In my freshman dorm room, we even had a sign that said the “M” word was not allowed in our apartment. You know what, though? Two years ago I met the love of my life while still in college. I knew it was right so I married him and it has been the best decision I have ever made. Sure, we have only been married for a year and a half, but I take offense when people say we will be less happy than a couple who got married after age 25.

I tend to agree with Joseph Smidt in his comments above. I do not think that age itself is the determining factor of happiness in marriage. I think a lot of young marriages happen because of pregnancy, because of a desire to have sex, or because the couple feels they are duty bound to do so. I think a bigger focus needs to be placed on getting married for the RIGHT REASONS no matter what your age. The same goes for having kids. I am currently pregnant and for the first year of my marriage I was convinced that I would wait years before having kids. I was angry that church leaders and other church members were pressuring me to have kids. Then, one day I suddenly got the feeling that I WANTED to have a child. It had nothing to do with what anybody had said to me or what I felt obligated to do. We are pregnant now because we feel it is the right time for us. We should make sure we encourage people to have children for the right reasons and not out of obligation.

Comment by Liv — February 24, 2010 @ 6:05 pm
*That always makes me giggle. Having my first at 30 makes me ancient at church, but I am ALWAYS the youngest when I get together with other groups.

Reese, I’m in the same situation. I had my first a couple of weeks before I turned 37. I’ve struggled and struggled with our ward’s infant-mom playgroup for the past year. Most of the girls are perfectly nice and I’ve appreciated how friendly most of them have been to me–but the oldest among them is twelve years younger than I am. They want to talk about how they met their husbands and their BYU dorm experiences and who they knew in high school. It’s hard to know what to say when I’ve been out of high school for more than twenty years (and didn’t think much of it when I was there!)

/threadjack

Comment by ZD Eve — February 24, 2010 @ 6:09 pm
Mormons marry young because they want to have sex and don’t know what else to do with their passions. I teach the young women here in Maine to get an education, begin to do something with their lives, and then marriage will fall into place if it is the right time. Young Women lessons don’t have to be steered in the direction of marriage at 21, it is up to the spirit of the teacher to turn the lesson in what way she sees fit.

Comment by ave — February 24, 2010 @ 6:15 pm
And mothers over 25 tend to raise children who are happier and more successful

I’ve heard this before, but haven’t seen any study that suggests it, and I often wonder if it has more to do with teen pregnancies being lumped under the age of 25. I wonder if there was a middle age group (like under 18, 19-25, 26-35, 35+) if we’d find that that under 18 crowd skews the data… not that it has anything to do with the topic…

Also, with the slightly lower divorce rate among LDS… is that because of a perception that divorce isn’t an option? And if so, should we be “proud” of that statistic?

Comment by Enna — February 24, 2010 @ 6:26 pm
Oof. Eve, I feel ya. I’m lucky to have found a couple moms on their second marriage, so it’s way easier. Before them I just kept to myself.

Comment by Reese Dixon — February 24, 2010 @ 6:34 pm
I am not so sure that it is all about age, per se, but about maturity level. I think on a surface level, mormons might be more apt to be more mature– i.e. save for and go on a mission, avoid alcohol, take responsibility for your body, the YM and YW goal programs are geared toward youths taking personal responsibility. But youths like this are by far the minority- women with YW medallion, men with the Duty to God award, both who served missions.

I am not saying that these programs are perfect by any means, but for individuals who accomplish the programs without mom or dad telling them to, they appear to me to have a greater maturity level than those who do not have personal goal setting programs- the same might be said about scout or community programs that also teach goal setting and responsibility.

I think with the church that there is so much underlying focus on sex- that rather than setting a temple goal, for example, a lot of parents teach “don’t do it till your married”- which I think fogs the teaching of self control- like a binge eater who only eats after 6PM, there is no real self control– its about deprivation then indulgence, which is a plan that offers a grand way to ruin a diet and a marriage.

So, I don’t think the focus should necessarily be “wait till you’re 25 then your marriage will be better” actually teaches anything of self control and maturity - it just sounds like a new “wait till your married to have sex, then it s a free for all” or “wait till you go to college, then you can drink, get a tatoo, and pierce THAT and your parents won’t know”.

I think that families who focus more on teaching maturity and decision making- rather than the “don’t do this” sin-mongering are apt to have better marraiges, regardless of age.

Comment by spunky — February 24, 2010 @ 6:37 pm
I just finished Elizabeth Gilbert’s book: Committed: A Skeptic Makes Peace With Marriage. She makes a lot of good//historical points about this universal institution. It was a fascinating and funny read. Just thought I’d put the recommendation out there!

I got married at 25, which, at the time I was so proud of. You know, for being so “old.” Sigh. Is it weird to say that one of my great fears in Mormon motherhood is that I’ll inadvertently steer my daughters toward an early marriage??

Comment by Lacy — February 24, 2010 @ 6:37 pm
I do agree that every couple is different, and so while some might be maturer/ready sooner than others, I do think it’s ok to wait a little bit and that there is too much pressure to get married young. If it’s right now, why wouldn’t it be right later? And I don’t mean necessarily being engaged for 5 years or putting off children to school is 100% done, I’m more thinking about those that get engaged after knowing each other for mere days or weeks. Waiting till you know each other better; knowing that you can handle each other’s faults, quirks, habits; knowing how the other reacts to both good and bad situations; knowing you really know the other person and there aren’t going to be unpleasant surprises, it just seems common sense to me. But I knew so many couples that were getting married in Utah valley so quickly, and then feeling lonely or isolated as granolagirl said, because they hadn’t really gotten to know their spouse beforehand and so that seemed to make the transition into marriage and partnership harder.

Comment by de Pizan — February 24, 2010 @ 6:38 pm
I got married the first time when I was one month shy of my 20th birthday. My then-husband was 24. I was definitely one of those girls wrapped up in the idea of “just marry a nice RM!”. Seriously, I was temple-marriage-or-bust! (Nevermind the glaring flares shot up during our engagement, but that’s another story or twenty.)

Fast forward, wonderfully (and childlessly!) divorced at 24 I headed back to Provo to either continue at BYU or do something else…and find a new husband. Sounds crazy, but I had certainly learned a lot in those 4+ years. And one thing I learned is that I really enjoyed the good parts of being married and just needed an excellent man.

My husband and I were 25 when we married, and all of his roomates were older than he was. They were some of the most fun, sincere, honest and intelligent men I’ve met. They all married out of that apartment to wonderful girls. One of them ended up divorced a few years later, but the bride’s father demanded that they wait until the end of her freshman year to get married. Sad coincidence with our thread…

Oh, and I did a much better job at choosing a mate this time.

Comment by ErinAnn — February 24, 2010 @ 6:41 pm
“And it seems to me that families will be even safer and more stable if both parents can provide (I know this here family is screwed if dh drops dead)(note to self: get more life insurance on dh).”

I think this here is the most damning evidence of where we are setting up marriages to fail. Placing someone (usually the woman) in a position of financial dependence is unhealthy at best and disastrous at worst.

We simply do not talk enough about the realities of life to our youth. We are doing them a true disservice.

Comment by Lupita — February 24, 2010 @ 6:42 pm
“And mothers over 25 tend to raise children who are happier and more successful”

I had my first child at 28. Hope my boys are happier and more successful. That would be swell.

Comment by Lupita — February 24, 2010 @ 6:47 pm
#30 Ugh. I had the opposite reaction but I’m not much of a Gilbert fan. Too narcissistic for me. And I think the title is misleading. She felt ‘forced’ into marriage because of immigration laws that would’ve deported her boyfriend. I never got the sense that she ever made peace with marriage.

Comment by Lupita — February 24, 2010 @ 6:53 pm
In our married student ward in Utah, there was a sort of righteousness people wore if they had a lot of kids early. Sometimes, they even talked about it, during testimony meetings for instance, saying how they had so many children because they were obedient. Somehow, during those testimonies and even during social interactions, a most definite message was sent that they were righteous and those of us who waited to have kids were not.

It’s funny, I thought once I escaped the (BYU) cultural push to marry that all would be smooth sailing, but I forgot about the push to have kids. Once out of Utah, though, there seemed to be almost no pressure either way. Thank goodness!

Comment by Ahhh... — February 24, 2010 @ 6:58 pm
Lisa: why encourage behavior that makes marriage less stable when marriage is so very important to us?

So if I am reading your post correctly you are assuming that waiting until age 25 to be married leads to more healthy marriages right? That may be the case but it seems like there is a lot of data missing to support the hypothesis that encouraging Mormons to wait until at least age 25 will lead to happier marriages.

Intuitively I can see a lot of snags with it in this particular sub population. For one thing, there is a scarcity of desirable, faithful mates. For another thing, it is hard enough to remain celibate until one is 21 or 22 — asking for a few more years could create a lot more problems than it solves.

But I would be interested in seeing studies on the subject focusing on Mormons,

Comment by Geoff J — February 24, 2010 @ 7:00 pm
#19: The single RM’s here are “wife-hunting,” and it’s made me get a decoy ring.

Well if it makes you feel any better, at virtually every other college campus in the world the twenty-something guys are actively hunting for something else from the freshmen girls… I suppose a decoy ring might work in either case though.

Comment by Geoff J — February 24, 2010 @ 7:04 pm
Lisa,

Can the answer be that LDS culture hangs on to old ideals despite new evidence because Mormon culture just doesn’t care for quick change?

I mean, to me, it seems like we are a slowly-evolving people and that’s just how we like it.

I think there are more and more LDS parents encouraging their kids, even their female ones, to finish school and live some life prior to getting married. And there are more and more people who think it’s “OK” when they hear a kid is doing that.

And couples holding off on kids till after school is getting more common too.

And, as far as gender roles…well, the working mothers numbers are on the rise aren’t they? I mean someday, LDS gals might even start sporting trousers…to church!!!

Comment by zaissa — February 24, 2010 @ 7:05 pm
#15: I wonder how accurate that link to about how depressed women are in Utah are. Utah was rated #1 or #2 in Happiest states in various polls:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/10/the-happiest-states-of-america/

http://www.gallup.com/poll/125849/Hawaii-Tops-Utah-Nation-Best.aspx?CSTS=tagrss

And, in other polls, Utah was not in the bottom 5 states.

Comment by Mike H. — February 24, 2010 @ 7:10 pm
I got married when I was 21. I’m 28 now. And I can definitely see the wisdom of waiting until you’re in your mid-to-late 20s to get married. There’s just so much more I understand about myself and what I want out of life. There’s so much more I understand about making a household run now that I’ve been living on my own.

Thankfully, we’ve always had a pretty egalitarian view of gender roles (at least functionally), so my husband is quite flexible and we’ve been able to make things work so far. If he weren’t so flexible with his career desires and parenting roles, I think we’d be having a much more difficult time having married as young as we did.

Comment by Ms. Jack Meyers — February 24, 2010 @ 7:12 pm
Divorce rate statistics are usually used to manipulate the publicin the media. They don’t usually factor in how long people are married before they divorce, for one. If you get married at 75, probably, you are less likely to get divorced, probably partly just because you will die before you break up.
Really, if we are marrying simply to not get divorced, then no one should get married until after 35. But that sure isn’t optimal for any kind of childbrearing future.
If you look at statistics, men should marry past 30–or before 20–which would be just as well for them as far as life partner is concerned. Women are better off marrying in their teens than in their twenties if staying together is the goal.
If we just followed statistics we could easily be counseling YM to marry right out of HS–or wait until an equal age partner couldn’t have kids. Clearly marital age decisions are more complicated that a divorce rate statistic.

Comment by mmiles — February 24, 2010 @ 7:14 pm
I think that if a man marries so he can have sex (morally), that he is short changing his wife immensely. Once the sex dies down a bit, he’ll wake up and realize he might have married for the wrong reasons. How really, is that helpful to anyone?

I’ve trained my older kids to believe that while sexual self gratification might not be the ideal in the spiritual sense, that it would certainly beat getting married just to find sexual relief. Too bad we can’t teach that from the pulpit… but it’s true! If Mormon boys felt free to have that sort of release, would so many couples pair up so young?

Comment by Ahhh... — February 24, 2010 @ 7:18 pm
Forgot the link

http://www.divorcerate.org/

Comment by mmiles — February 24, 2010 @ 7:21 pm
43 Are you saying men are the only ones who marry for sex? I don’t believe that.

Comment by Lupita — February 24, 2010 @ 7:26 pm
Good point Lupita. That’s why I’ve also taught my daughter that self gratification is preferable to marrying too early, just for sex.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 24, 2010 @ 7:29 pm
Lisa: I’m interested in some of your thoughts expressed in the 2nd to the last paragraph of your original post. The Mormon leadership appears to be heavily entrenched in “mothers nurture, fathers preside and provide” and the “gender is essential” ideas of the proclamation. I predict, on a side note, that we will likely be “voting” (yeah, right, some common consent we Mormons do) on making the Proclamation part of our canon very soon. That’s just a feeling I get when I see it quoted so often and “cut and pasted” into Mormons scriptures right now as if it were already canonized. Anyway, back to the equal partners and both nurturing and not presiding, I agree with the idea that we Mormons need to think about strengthening marriage in many other ways than our traditions now hold. My wife and I have told our 3 daughters in no uncertain terms that we are not throwing a party for one of them if they get married at age 18. Sorry, that’s just too young!

Comment by kevinr — February 24, 2010 @ 7:37 pm
I think that if a man marries so he can have sex (morally), that he is short changing his wife immensely. Once the sex dies down a bit, he’ll wake up and realize he might have married for the wrong reasons.

Hehe. Apparently you missed my last post on the theory that men do everything they do in order to get laid.

Comment by Geoff J — February 24, 2010 @ 7:43 pm
I remember one sunday in my married student ward at USU, a sister with a two-year-old and a baby stood up and bore her testimony and cried when she said that she and her husband had decided that she would drop out of school because they couldn’t both go to school and take care of their two kids.

I didn’t know all the details, but it broke my heart that it seemed so much like she wanted to stay in school.

I have another friend who made a similar decision, but it was what she wanted.

Comment by Alliegator — February 24, 2010 @ 7:48 pm
Re: Ahhh #20

I have thought about that, as well. If I teach my kids they don’t need to rush into marriage and to have other priorities until they are older, are their chances of marrying LDS going to decrease? Especially for a daughter, sadly. I don’t think I care, though. If marrying within the LDS culture really requires such stringent limitations… well without going into a long tirade about my issues with the church, I would rather they marry outside the church. That’s just me, though.

Comment by Alyssa — February 24, 2010 @ 7:56 pm
a big part of the bubble in divorce rates in the 70s and 80s (cuz divorce rates are going back down now) came when couples shifted from more traditional marriages where people married to complement each other to more modern marriages where people married to share interests and goals.

I’m not so sure that people still didn’t marry for similar reasons, but increased divorce rates probably had a lot more to do with women having the option to leave (with educations and careers of their own- less dependency).

A good marriage, to me, is not necessarily a financially stable one.

While it certainly isn’t the only thing that determines a good marriage, it can contribute to it and research supports that finding, with a percentage as high as 70% of couples fighting about finances. Maybe you mean that they don’t have to be wealthy…but personally, I’ve taught my chiildren that they certainly should have stable finances when independent and when married. They should also carefully check into a prospective spouse’s views on how money will factor into the relationship. That does not mean a couple has to be financially well off, just managing the money they have responsibly and agreeing on how that is done. Financial mismanagement was definitely a factor in my own divorce, with my ex-husband opening charge cards without my knowledge and incurring debt of which I was unaware.

shouldn’t a big part of self-reliance be “to everything there is a season and a time”, where we should, I don’t know…build the nest before laying eggs?

Yes! I like this a lot.

I’m also revolted by being told by RMs that their MPs told them to marry within 6 months, like it’s some kind of race. I don’t like that advice- it’s hasty and undignified. Eternity is a long time to regret marrying someone…
in the words of W. Congreve:

Thus grief still treads upon the heels of pleasure:
Married in haste, we may repent at leisure.

Comment by Kimberly — February 24, 2010 @ 8:18 pm
Yes, statistics can be funny numbers. I have never heard any directive given to marry young…or what young exactly means. I don’t see ANY of my peers in the church ( mothers of adult marriageable age children) hurrying their children to the alter. I have a friend who has started to fret because her children are past 25. ( I am always telling her not to worry! ) Past 30, yes…I hear comments! But In the church the marriage age is creeping up, and young adults are encouraged to date as opposed to just hang out Yes, definitely pro marriage! My experience is when two people decide to get married, there is almost no talking them out of it anyway, no matter what the age. Myself included.

#20 AHHH SAID :My parents also had some strange campaign going on to get me married… and would always ask if I was doing my hair and make up… what my prospects were, etc… and they even paid for trips to the tanning salon… their idea!…

..Ahhh! That makes me feel really sad. It is beyond my experience so it is hard for me to understand that! Thanks for giving me an eyeful of your experience. Parents should not be messing their kids up! Sounds like you made it just fine though, happily.

My parents didn’t get involved very much in my dating, and if they did anything it was more about me WAITING to do things later, not trying to speed things along. I married at 23 and now that is starting to look very young to me!

( I do understand that there will never be a better pool of prospects than while at BYU, or in institute and single wards.. I have to admit, with my own kids, I did hope it worked out that they found their mate there, as there are such slim pickings in some parts of the country/world, but they knew they were free to choose! And we do place a high value on marrying in the church, for many reasons that I won’t thread jack. )

I held no specific expectations of when my children would marry.( I think I benefit from being a convert in some ways! I have a general trust in the Lord’s timing, if we do our part. )

They did all expect to go to college and have missions and marriage. Because we started our family while in college, I was not against that for them. I told them you don’t have to date a lot , in high school OR college and that they might marry the one person they finally seriously date. ( That wasn’t how it was with me, but I believe it is true. Just like it only takes one person to buy a house for sale, so only the RIGHT person has to look at it! ) I also told them it is quite ok to break an engagement, and that is far superior to divorce. Engagement is the time to figure out if marriage is not the best idea, not just the time to plan plan plan plan. You learn a lot about each other and each other’s families while planning! When someone tells me they broke off their engagement I say, “Oh, and I am sorry, AND… good for you!” Because it is both hard and painful, and means they have usually done the right thing, and had to be brave to do it! )

I dated most when I was not worrying about dating at all, when I was just enjoying being me, trusting God, and doing a good job with what I had to do at the time.

My kids all got married exactly when they chose to. And it wasn’t about AGE, it was about finding the right person. ( And they all had the relatively short engagements typical of college students at BYU…4-6 months or so. I do realize that in ‘the world’ engagements can be even YEARS! )

There are many factors different in the church and out of it. We have pretty clear teachings and practices on positive parenting, education, being a good citizen, social and family relations, money management including savings and sacrifice, debt, work ethic, food preparation and storage, and specific and general teachings on so many things. These teachings aren’t reserved for the church membership, of course, but our church does a good job of making this type of learning a true family stewardship and priority and focus, which I believe is fairly unusual in this day and time. A life-time of structured and consistent Family Home Evenings, family work, and studying and good example of living the gospel in a family is quite incredible for marriage prep! ( and I know we don’t all get that, and we all fall short…but still, its AMAZING! )

Back in “the day” we had RS meetings in Mother Education, Social and Spiritual Development, and there is that SS class…Marrriage Relations?) and a plethora of homemaking meetings to up our knowledge and skills.

The church automatically at least gives an LDS couple a foundation that is similar, though they still have to navigate plenty of differences in expectations because of their differing family cultures and practices and personal expectations and quirks. When a convert marries a life long member , there are other differences to work through, but I think in our case the combination has been wonderful for us and our children.

Some children have been so well taught in their family of origin by word and example to be self reliant and savvy about so many things, that they can be years ahead of the game, in maturity and understanding. Missions for both men and women give a step up and crash course on getting along and making concessions, repenting, forgiving and compromising.

It can also mean additional experience in cooking, cleaning, mending, saving for a purpose, learning manners, money and time management, and selflessness. ( I said CAN be…it is less than it could be, I am sure! I regret not teaching my children better and more while I had the chance with them. )

“So it’s true that we Mormons tend to get married young and have babies right away.” Except for those who don’t, and that number is rising all the time. But in GENERAL I guess that statement holds. Since the word is ..tend to. And I think if a person has had consistent good teaching in a good LDS home, and enjoyed it..and is spiritually prepared to marry in the temple, then they are probably more ready and able to have a successful marriage than the general public.

#5 there’s trouble when people change.
And people always are changing! Which is why marriage is …a work type thing! I don’t think its easy. Still. LOVE IT.

#6 I think people are living more egalitarian when married in college for many reasons. We did, and that was 3 decades ago. As long as people are both studying and in apartments, the husbands are not usually expected to do or able to do much in the way of home repairs or home expansion or improvements , yard work ect. Many apartments do not even allow car repairs on the premises. If you are both in school, you tend to both pitch in wherever it is needed. We shopped and did laundry and cleaning together because it was fun being together doing ANYTHING! And we didn’t have too much free time. Once we become settled in careers and especially become home owners and parents, the divide seemed to widen towards more traditional roles. That was my experience and my surprise! It went from ‘today we need to take time to clean the apartment to ‘ can you please promise me a few hours to help get the house clean ( or cook) before your parents arrive?’ From there, as the kids got older, hubby helped LESS in the home, and the kids helped MORE, and he had many other responsibilities in callings, work, scouting, and home stuff. We seemed to have some sort of evolution towards tradition, because it actually made sense for us, but still I was somehow not expecting it, growing up in the 60/70’s as I did…. and riding that wave of feminism.

My boys are total contributors with their homes and with cleaning and child rearing, but they are also not yet home owners with their own riding lawn mowers and their little piece of earth. Their tool collections are still relatively small, as is their need for them. So my married children have had longer to be in that time when it is EASIER to be egalitarian in marriage. That doesn’t mean they will STOP when life changes and home ownership is chosen, but…it could evolve at that time, and time will tell.

I like that there are DIY shows with women being the tool hefters. I used my share of them, usually in working on art or decorating or furniture projects before marriage. I admit now I just call on hub in a traditional role kind of way, because he enjoys it so much.

This is not always the case though, because there is Bear and his cake stuff, and Reese and her wishes for a saw! And I do think each decade has seen marked changes in this area.

Sadly, and sort of surprisingly to me, my children already have friends who have had temple marriages, get divorced. And as I am at that “empty nest sort of place”, I am seeing it happen to a few of my friends. Divorce does go up when the children leave the home, for many reasons.

I have always felt that the church teaching certainly included that my husband would nurture our children, and he did, but in more masculine ways. He did more rumbling and tumbling on the floor, more tousling of the hair, and more outside work with them. He did some cooking and washing dishes with them. We have had more than a few conversations on how to keep some of that egalitarian idea alive…and honestly…for alot of the time…he just hasn’t had time. I know that sounds like a cop out, and make no sense to some of you, but for us, it is true none the less. He works too much, and has been in heavy church callings, and supported the kids as youth by being a constant driver, and always going on the campouts, and going on temple trips ect. I do have to say though, he also was wonderful at taking care of nursery at Homemaking meetings, and very much involved in helping with our son with cp.

Well here I am again, grateful for my husband ( who is currently out with the missionaries!)

I do not encourage young adults to skip right through that great time of life. My 5 years went pretty fast. It is awesome to enjoy singlehood!

Since I was probably not ready for marriage until I actually did marry, “young”, for me…is probably LESS than 22. What is YOUR definition of YOUNG? Is it under 20? a teenager? or is 25, the ‘new’ young?

Comment by Melissa P. — February 24, 2010 @ 8:24 pm
eek. sorry again. for ridiculously long post. embarrassing.

Comment by Melissa P. — February 24, 2010 @ 8:25 pm
Fact is insurance actuarial tables show that people become more stable and more able to maintain productive lives at the age of 25 as well. Education and the stability of the family of origin all tip the balance toward stability as well but there seems to be a significant maturity factor that kicks in at 25 that can’t be counted on prior to that.

As for temple marriages being more stable I think the current finding is that that’s only marginally true. Wish I could put my finger on that statistic at the moment but it was an LDS source where I heard it. Possibly Mormon Stories. The older generation that count on some special protective effect of temple marriages were talking about a previous generation. One when women had fewer options and thought they had no choice but to put up with abusive relationships.

Comment by Withheld — February 24, 2010 @ 8:48 pm
#15 said it best (for my personal opinion). That is soooo how I feel about it all. Almost word-for-word, except that the people in her life that were married in the temple and are now miserable are most likely not the same people in my life that were married in the temple and are miserable.

Comment by Valerie — February 24, 2010 @ 8:52 pm
eek. sorry again. for ridiculously long post. embarrassing.

Don’t worry. posting skills get better with age.

Now that I’ll FINALLY have found a job, my posts here will drop off.

Comment by Mike H. — February 24, 2010 @ 8:56 pm
I’m also revolted by being told by RMs that their MPs told them to marry within 6 months, like it’s some kind of race. I don’t like that advice- it’s hasty and undignified. Eternity is a long time to regret marrying someone…

I’m also horrified by this advice–and its one of the reason that my first couple years at BYU, I avoided RM’s like the plague.

My DH actually got totally opposite advice from his MP, thank goodness–he recommended that they take a year before getting married so they could get back into the swing of real life and make sure that they weren’t coming off the high of the mission and actually be thinking a little with their heads. DH ended up making it almost 5 years–we were 26 and I am so glad. It was perfect for us both and I do agree with a lot of the stuff about getting married after 25.

Comment by Kim — February 24, 2010 @ 9:11 pm
I went to Utah State U. and am starting to see acquaintances who married too quickly getting divorced. People mature at different rates, but knowing what you want and knowing your future spouse are important at any age. I don’t think anyone should choose whether or not to marry based on statistics for their age/religious/whatever group, but it is interesting to think about things that might be behind those statistics.

While I’m no longer Mormon, I’m supremely grateful for the last 4 years I’ve spent getting to know, and living with, my fiance. Being able to take both our physical and emotional relationship gradually without a single event to make it ‘legitimate’ has been a great blessing that has increased our honesty and trust with one another.

Comment by leisurelyviking — February 24, 2010 @ 9:19 pm
Really, Mike? Congrats on the job. We’ll be here, when you have time to check in.

Comment by Kimberly — February 24, 2010 @ 9:26 pm
I can’t help but be skeptical of comments indicating that the rising generation of Mormons is less traditional, more egalitarian, etc.

I am currently married, in my late 20s, and in what will most likely be my last semester of schooling for the rest of my life. My wife and I married in our early 20s, while we were both students at BYU. We don’t have any children, and my wife works in her chosen profession.

And let me tell you, we are an anomaly, at least in our current ward. We live in a university town on the East Coast, so a good portion of our ward is comprised of young graduate or school couples. I certainly wouldn’t say that it’s a “liberal” ward, but it’s definitely less conservative, on the whole, than our previous Wymount Terrace ward. (We have a lot of those “so-called intellectuals” in our boundaries.) I would say that the young couple population in our ward is fairly representative of the rising Mormon generation generally.

We are one of the few childless couples in the ward, and my wife is one of the few working wives. For the most part, the other childless couples are relatively newly married–meaning that they’re still within the 1-2 year “grace period” during which being childless is acceptable. Virtually without exception, each of our peer couples (i.e., roughly same age and length of marriage) has 1-2 children, and the wife stays home.

In my observation, traditional marital roles are very deeply ingrained in the rising generation. The Proclamation is very consistently heeded.

Comment by Steve-M — February 24, 2010 @ 9:30 pm
but every Mormon woman that I personally know that married past age 25 ended up marrying a divorced Mormon man with children. Most of them are happy, so I’m not knocking the choice, but that’s certainly not the fantasy image I had growing up. So, if Mormon culture continues to push young marriage like they did with me, what are my daughter’s chances?

I’m reading the comments backwards and just saw this one–seriously, you don’t know anyone who married after 25 to another never-been-married person? Well, send your daughter out to CA–I moved to San Diego after graduating BYU and very much feeling “old” at 22, and down there I found the most awesome singles ward–full of intelligent, well-rounded people with an average age of about 24. I had many friends in that ward get married closer to 30 (and beyond), DH and I were 26, it was normal to not be 19 and getting married. I think once you get away from the church schools and Utah, even within the church there are still a lot of options–and its not like its just the leftovers. There were some of the most amazing men I’d ever met in my life, including my husband–they were just looking for the right match for them, and sometimes that takes a little longer than 6 months post-mish.

Don’t give up hope. I heard a lot of those types of comments “If you leave BYU unmarried, you’ll never find anyone!” or “I was so sure you’d get married the first year of school–that’s too bad.” Those types of comments just make it harder to keep a healthy attitude about it all.

Comment by Kim — February 24, 2010 @ 9:33 pm
Quite a few of you have referenced the idea that many young mormon’s get married so they can have sex and that is unwise. But how can you really determine if that is the reason? Aren’t feelings of intense love and sexual desire oftentimes wrapped up into one?

Comment by Cecile — February 24, 2010 @ 9:36 pm
Congrats, Mike H! That is great news!

Comment by Stephanie — February 24, 2010 @ 9:49 pm
Lisa, you make good points about the benefits of later marriage, but I don’t think the church is going to change its stance on that anytime soon. Encouraging young marriage benefits the church in several ways. For one, the younger couples marry, the longer their childbearing years (especially since female fertility is higher in the early 20s than later in life) and the greater the chance that they will have lots of children who will be members of the church. For another, women who marry young are less likely to have had a career before marriage, and are therefore more likely to be SAHMs.

SAHMs benefit the church in a lot of ways. Again, they are probably more likely to have larger families than WOHMs who would have to pay for childcare, so that means more church members. Second, thy are, in my opinion, better able to support husbands in demanding callings than WOHMs are. Speaking as a WOHM, if my DH ever has a calling more demanding than YM president, we’re screwed. We very much share housework and childcare duties, and if he were in the bishopric or something, I’m not sure I could pick up the slack at home. I think SAHMs are often better able to do their own callings as well. They have a bit more flexibility, say, to take meals to a needy ward member or spend a week at girls’ camp with the YW. They are probably less likely to travel as frequently as WOHMs. Overall, I think for the church, the cost of SAHMs (in terms of tithing forgone since they don’t bring in a second income) is outweighed by the benefits.

My basic theory is that the church needs members to have a lot of kids in order to sustain its growth. If my own mission is any indication, the retention rate of new converts is abysmal. It’s much easier when existing members have kids who “automatically” become members at age 8. Those kids grow up understanding how the church works, being trained in the doctrine, and have the family pressure to remain active. So it’s to the church’s advantage for its members to marry and have children young.

Comment by Sofia — February 24, 2010 @ 9:53 pm
Congrats Mike! Well done you!

Comment by Reese Dixon — February 24, 2010 @ 9:53 pm
Perhaps I’m a bit jaded, but sexual attraction can be instant and could be mistaken for love initially. I’m a convert, and in the outside
world (and I’m sure for the LDS couples who give themselves a little more time too), an engagement of at least 6 months usually gives a couple some space and time to differentiate between the hormones and the actual substance of the relationship…also some clues to potential challenges that just are not evident after a few days of dating, no matter how hunkey-dorey everything seems to be going. Optimally, IMO, there will be enough opportunity to meet the family in which you plan to marry, because most of us married people know that you don’t get to live in a vacuum as a couple for long- there are in-laws out there and the unsupportive ones can cause some damage, especially if they live close. It doesn’t mean you can’t marry a person if you’re not crazy about his family, but, I do think it makes things a little harder if you don’t. I think it’s important to see your potential mate interacting with his family, your family and children and observe how he treats friends who are important to you…even how he treats animals, how he handles stress and finances, how he behaves in an argument. Same for him to know these things about the woman he thinks he’d like to spend his life with. Obviously, there are things you won’t find out until after you are married, but I think that should be a calculated risk based on what you can find out ahead of time…no one is completely protected and there’s always a risk involved…and, as stated, people do change, so, there’s no guarantee.

I know there’s going to be a whole bunch of folks who met and married in a month who will tell me how perfectly a whirlwind marriage can work out, and phew, am I happy for those cases….but I tend to believe there was a substantial amount of luck involved and I have to be honest, I hope my daughters don’t marry that quickly.

Comment by Kimberly — February 24, 2010 @ 10:02 pm
In my extended family there has been three temple divorces in recent years. In each case the woman was 20 or 21 at marriage with several years of college, engagement less than 4 months, and male an RM but still in school.

The other common thread? Each of these women went home regularly to their “rooms” or “bed” at Mom and Dad’s house from the first month in the marriage. It seems not one of them had lived in anything but a dorm like setting on their own and felt they needed regular breaks from poor, married, student life - to daddy’s house/cars/vacations!

Needless to say, each of these marriages lasted less than a year. Sadly, one couple was stupid enough to make a child while she was still spending several nights a week at mom and dads’. Crazy.

Comment by Nicole — February 24, 2010 @ 10:11 pm
One thing I find interesting is that non-Mormons in Utah also seem to get married pretty young (this is just my observation, no scientific data to back that up). I think decisions about appropriate marriage age and number of children are heavily influenced by the demographics and culture around us. For example, I grew up in a neighborhood where most people got married in their early 20s and the average number of kids was probably about 4 (though 8 or 9 was not unheard of). I’ve now lived on the East Coast for many years, and I’ve found myself raising an eyebrow now when I hear about someone having a third child, just because it is so uncommon among my acquaintances. And most of the people I know who get married here are in their 30s, so it seems strange to go back home and see college freshmen with diamond rings. I guess I just wonder to what extent early marriage for Mormons reflects a need for sex, and to what extent it’s just what seems culturally normal–especially in a concentrated LDS setting like BYU.

Comment by Sofia — February 24, 2010 @ 10:20 pm
So no one has a link to the report cited in the OP? Just curious…

Comment by queuno — February 24, 2010 @ 10:20 pm
My basic theory is that the church needs members to have a lot of kids in order to sustain its growth.

How? We can consolidate wards, stakes and missions when growth drops. The Church has always found itself able to adapt to changing local conditions…

Comment by queuno — February 24, 2010 @ 10:21 pm
Each of these women went home regularly to their “rooms” or “bed” at Mom and Dad’s house from the first month in the marriage. It seems not one of them had lived in anything but a dorm like setting on their own and felt they needed regular breaks from poor, married, student life - to daddy’s house/cars/vacations!

That’s weird. I guess that is one benefit to having poor parents. I think mine would have kicked me out anyway.

My wife and I have told our 3 daughters in no uncertain terms that we are not throwing a party for one of them if they get married at age 18. Sorry, that’s just too young!

My parents were total turds about me getting married at 19. Don’t be a turd. I married him anyway and it just made my relationship with my parents strained.

Someone said something about how Utahns women take more depression medication than any other area. Could there be a genetic component to that? I know that my need for mood stabilizers has a lot more to do with my genes than my life. I think my life is freaking awesome. Everyone in my family suffers from depression and anxiety, and every that I’ve talked to that also needs depression meds have a very strong family history of it as well. So maybe Brigham Young had a genetic predisposition to depression and passed it on to his 50 kids who passed it on and on and on.

It is interesting to hear what different experiences everyone has in the church. I’ve never lived in Utah, but I’ve lived a lot of other places and I just haven’t seen a lot of the same things. I never felt pressured to have kids early or have tons of them. I only know a handful of couples who actually had kids their first year of marriage, and most of the women I know have a college degree. And yeah, most of the marriage are very egalitarian, even though in most of them the wife stays home. It is interesting.

Comment by jen — February 24, 2010 @ 10:34 pm
By the way, I meant “don’t be a turd” as advice for the future, I was totally not name calling. I didn’t mean to be rude. Sorry.

Comment by jen — February 24, 2010 @ 10:43 pm
On a related historical note, I read recently about how when Ezra T. Benson returned from his mission, he expected to marry Flora, whom he had dated prior to his mission and with whom he faithfully corresponded while on his mission. But she surprised him by deciding to go on her own mission, believing that Ezra needed more time to pursue his education and that she needed space to have her own growth experiences, and that getting married at that time would stunt their individual growth. And this was eons ago.

Re the kids thing, I’m really grateful we have had our kids young. I can barely maintain the youthful vigor required to keep up with them even at my current age. I would feel terrible for their awful plight if we had them them a decade+ later. Lot of media babysitting, for sure.

Comment by WJ — February 24, 2010 @ 11:03 pm
As someone who got married “young’ and fairly fast, I’m still having a hard time with the idea of someone making a major, life altering, temple-covenant-involving decision based on hormones.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but really? Does anyone know anyone who has said that’s why they got married?

Comment by Alliegator — February 24, 2010 @ 11:10 pm
“Don’t be a turd” is always good advice.

Comment by Lupita — February 24, 2010 @ 11:16 pm
As someone who got married “young’ and fairly fast, I’m still having a hard time with the idea of someone making a major, life altering, temple-covenant-involving decision based on hormones.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but really? Does anyone know anyone who has said that’s why they got married?

I married as an Old Maid (just a few weeks shy of 26) after a very quick courtship to the only guy I ever dated who actually liked me back. Sex / hormones wasn’t the ONLY reason I married him, of course, but heck yeah it ranked up there and I’m not ashamed to admit it!

I had an anthropology professor at my (Presbyterian) college who introduced the topic of marriage customs by relating that she got married as a teenager mostly because she and her boyfriend wanted to have sex but didn’t want to sin. She wasn’t LDS, but among populations who believe in sex only within marriage … yeah, I don’t think it’s an uncommon or weak motivator.

Not that one should extrapolate from her experience or recommend that everyone should do the same, but she was still married to that same guy ~30 years later when I had her class. And I love my DH for more than his hot body, lol. But … yeah. I think it’s naive to say that horniness — ESPECIALLY among determined virgins — doesn’t overtake the rational side of the brain for many people.

Comment by RCH — February 24, 2010 @ 11:36 pm
Yeah.

LOL. I think I need to stop saying that.

Comment by RCH — February 24, 2010 @ 11:37 pm
There are several reasons why it bothers me that people are pushed to marry young in the BYU community.

1) Why does everyone feel like my personal life is their business? What difference does it make to you whether or not I’m dating anyone? I’m an adult. I’m pretty sure I can handle it, and you are NOT entitled to a regular update on my progress.

2) BYU, with its honor code and generally infantalizing feel, treats people like children who are completely incapable of making their own decisions regarding personal appearance and behavior. I feel that they do not want to give college students a chance to really be adults and decide for themselves what is important to them and how they will behave. Refusing to trust people to make adult decisions and then pressuring them to get married (a huge decision to make!) is just a bit perverse. Not only that, it’s like they want to keep you from being an adult until you’re trapped into being the kind of adult they want you to be.

3) I don’t know if any of you experienced this, but people of the opposite sex don’t want to be social with you if you’re not a prospect. I remember moving into singles ward after singles ward and introducing myself to people. When it came out that I had a steady boyfriend of several years, none of those guys ever gave me the time of day again! Hey, jerkoff! I’m a human being, not a piece of meat in a window with a “sold” sign tacked to it!

4) (true story) If your bishop arranges a special Sunday sacrament meeting where a recently married couple is asked to take the whole block talking about how great it is to be married, you’re getting married for the wrong reason!! I’m sorry, but in my opinion, it is never a good idea to get married because someone told you to!

Comment by AllieKay — February 25, 2010 @ 12:05 am
I married young (20). I’ll admit I know I did a lot of growing up that year and a half of marriage, but if I hadn’t married, it would have never happened. My dad is really sexist and controlling and my mom is really emotionally manipulative. I really needed to be married and out of their “jurisdiction” to find myself, and I’m glad my husband was patient with me during that time. I don’t think I would have been able to step aside and see my parents’ manipulation and control for what it is if I had never married and saw how a family who actually likes each other (ie. my husband’s) interacts.

Anyway, I like to think my husband and I have a very egalitarian marriage. Yes, he’s finishing school and works and I stay home with my daughter, but I’m very involved in the things I love also. And when we move, I’ll have the option of grad school (we’re still in Provo and BYU doesn’t offer what I want) which my husband wholeheartedly will support me in- he’s actually promised me that he’ll make sure I get a master’s degree if I want one.

Comment by TopHat — February 25, 2010 @ 12:14 am
I meant that “first” year and a half of marriage. We’ve been married for 3.5 years now.

Comment by TopHat — February 25, 2010 @ 12:15 am
For the record, I did marry quite a bit younger than I expected to. I was almost twenty-one, and DH was almost twenty-two. But we were together for four years before that. It was no easy or quick decision.

My parents were less concerned that I got married so young, however, than they were about the fact that my older sisters weren’t married yet. At twenty-three and twenty-six, their clocks were ticking. My mom would say, “Allie, now that you have a man, could you please find some men to marry your sisters?” or “Your sisters just don’t know how to flirt. You should give them lessons!”

Meanwhile, every time one of my sisters even sat next to a strange guy in sacrament meeting, my mom would say something like, “Why don’t you marry him? He seems nice.” It wasn’t funny.

Let adults be adults, and let immature people have time to grow. If you don’t even trust people to be able to make such big decisions as who to have relationships with (i.e. you think they need your help), you shouldn’t be pushing them into marriage. That seems outrageously counter-productive!

Comment by AllieKay — February 25, 2010 @ 12:21 am
There is no reason you have to be perfect before marrying or having children. 18 is awfully young for either, but early 20s?
What is wrong with spouses being partners. Gaining maturity and experience within marriage or while being a parent is all part of the learning process.
Whether you are married or single during your twenties, chances are you are gaining wisdom (I hope) whatever your experiences, successes and challenges are.

Comment by jks — February 25, 2010 @ 1:41 am
Maybe it’s not so bad to get married young because the older I get, and the more I understand what marriage really entails, the more terrifying it is. (Or maybe I’m just another sad example of a girl who eschews marriage to pursue her dissertation work and inevitably ends up as an old maid).

Two years ago I was dead set on marrying my unambitious ne’er-do-well boyfriend at BYU because I felt I was getting too old to be marriageable (i.e. 21). Luckily the relationship fell apart after I moved to start a PhD program. A couple years later, I’m waffling over whether to marry my absolutely amazing boyfriend of nine months (eternity, in Mormon time). Sure, sex, extra financial support, companionship, etc. are all incredibly appealing, but I like being single and I suspect marriage will complicate my life much more than it simplifies it. I feel too young to be married. But also worry that there don’t seem to be many eligible Mormon guys over the age of 25 without serious emotional/social/spiritual hang-ups. All the marriageable guys get married young, so I’m losing ground quick.

I’m jealous of my sister-in-law who married my brother at 20 because it was “that time” of life and she liked kissing him. What else mattered? In hindsight, she says it’s frightening how lucky she is that things worked out well. Frightening or not, I wish I were blissfully lucky like that.

Regardless of age, I’m convinced that it’s hard to be an effective wife or mother without a strong sense of self worth that’s not entirely tied up in one’s family relationships. I grew up in an unhappy home with a mother who had never wanted anything more than to raise a perfect Mormon family. I suspect that’s why she settled for the first guy who came along and got anything but.

Comment by Stina — February 25, 2010 @ 1:51 am
I married at 21 (DH was 23) and had my first baby at 23 just as I was finishing Uni. I had another baby when I was 25 and i didn’t work outside of the home.

I sent my youngest off to full time school (4 full days) last year, he has the same schedule this year. I have been trying to gain employment since the beginning of last year with no success. I am a trained teacher but have no experience (other than the practicums). There is now an excess of teachers in Australia. I could probably get work in a rural location but my husband has better work opportunities in the city.

We are now broke and terribly in debt. DH has had very little work since Christmas. I have been paying for courses that will improve my chances of gaining work. It is not easy to stay optimistic or calm about searching for work when we seem to be screaming towards destitution. I feel stressed every day. I have to find work. I feel like I have to repress my own ideas in order to please employers and just get work!

I get very depressed thinking about the 9 years that I have spent out of the workforce. Yes I valued the opportunity to raise my children myself but why didn’t I keep up my skills and do some part-time work???

It is so frustrating to keep paying for courses and education but I still haven’t earned a cent from my University education!

I regret not working while I raised my children. I regret being dependent on DH and laying the burden of our financial security all on his shoulders. I regret teaching the YW the traditional roles outlined in the manuals.

Keep your identity women, maintain interests and employment outside of the home. I wish I had.

There is literally $0 in our bank accounts. This sucks!!!

Comment by Maureen — February 25, 2010 @ 2:14 am
“or at least temple marriages, are a bit less likely to end in divorce”

I doubt this is true nowadays because there are so many temple marriages where the couple goes inactive first and then divorce so the date of divorce isn’t updated on their membership records. I know several who are still listed as married in our Ward records but many people know that they divorced years ago but we can’t find then to confirm this, so after a while we just send them to the lost member file -as still married. I wonder then how many across the world are in a similar situation.

Maybe the more correct statement is to say that still active, faithful members who are Temple married have lower divorce numbers.

One thing for sure, membership records are usually way out of date!

Comment by Goose — February 25, 2010 @ 2:36 am
I’ve been thinking about this post all day and organizing my thoughts about what it takes to create a successful marriage and family, regardless of age.

My husband and I were married at age 22 - young and in love and enjoying every minute of it. It was the best thing either of us has ever done and, so far as I can tell, we have only benefited from doing it when we did. We both had to finish up our last year of school, and we both considered it our “best” year of college. We had a built-in support system, we got lots more sleep than we ever did as singles, and we were able to focus on the last few demands of our final school year with a more mature perspective. We live modestly and we were both well-employed before and after the wedding. We both enjoy working in our respective fields and I’m now working full-time as husband is finishing up his Ph.D at USC, and working part-time himself. No children yet - but that’s not because we don’t want them! We are partners in this marriage, equally yoked and supportive of one another’s ambitions and goals for life. I’ve always felt that my husband breathed a breathe of life under the wings of my ambitions — some perhaps that I wouldn’t have known were it not for him. We both want for me to keep a part-time professional outlet when the children come and he is ready to be Mr. Mom a few hours a week so I can stay sharp in my field.

In thinking about the different opinions about age and status of education before marriage, I keep coming back to one word: Adaptability. At what age are people the most adaptable to learning how to live with and love another person? Marriage combines 2 people from different upbringing and life experience and melds them together to form out a new life. Sure, there are bumps along the way when we bicker over how to fold the socks or stack the cups in the cupboard, but the more we hold ourselves agreeable and adaptable, the easier we seem to get along, right? Is this easier to do when we both know that we’re young, dumb and still immature? Do we not find ways to grow and mature together? We look back at our engagement and think, “Wow! We were so young and dumb, but look at what a great thing it led to!” We’ve often expressed that if we had been much older, more mature and understood better the eternal significance about being married, we may have been too cynical to take the plunge!

Is there any disadvantage expressed in that old saying about being “old and set in their ways”?

In support of marriage at any age, I would like to suggest that having a full-time partner in life requires a new skill set for day-to-day living that may not be as prevalent in single life. Namely: love, forgiveness, service, communication, charity, working together — the list could go on and on. I know that as a single girl, I was much more focused on ME. Everything was about MY career and MY life and MY MY MY. While I can still develop all of those lovely things about my individual self, it was nice to change the I-ME-MY to the we-us-our perspective. I feel I have more opportunities to serve another person on a consistent, daily basis, and receive his service in return. On my individual journey to develop Christlike attributes, I think if I didn’t have a husband to love, forgive and serve with every day, I might struggle to find other outside opportunities to develop my character in such a meaningful way.

Is that not an advantage to finding a partner earlier in life?

Certainly those wonderful single women (and men) can find countless ways to do this in their own life, (Think: Sister Thompson in the General RS) but the gist of the OP isn’t really addressing that topic.

After being married for 5 years, I feel my emotional progress in life has been tremendous. I do wonder, however, where would I be if I hadn’t gotten married when I did? And in all honesty, I can’t think of anything else I’d rather be doing — I’m living the dream I always wanted, I’ve grown with a wonderful companion, and nothing in my own life has lacked for it.

Comment by Carrie — February 25, 2010 @ 2:55 am
Here is an interesting discussion of the oft quoted statistics on temple marriage. I can’t for the life of me find it now, but I remember seeing a more detailed analysis of divorce rates that took into account activity in the church, temple vs. civil marriage, and compared it to other groups. It seemed fair because it showed athiests as having the lowest divorce rate, followed closely by Mormon temple marriages where both partners stay active, followed by marriages between Jews. Anybody know where to find that?
It also seems reliably demonstrated that member/non-member marriages have a success rate lower than national averages. So from a purely statistical standpoint, saying you’d prefer your child marry outside the church than marry young in the church may not be advisable.

Comment by Brian — February 25, 2010 @ 6:53 am
Personally, I don’t worry as much about ages as I do about courtship length. Short courtships terrify me. I don’t care how much revelation you receive that this is The One — even if you do happen to be a fine match, a relationship changes after marriage, and if you haven’t taken the time to build a strong enough foundation first, it’s going to hit you hard.

My parents married in their late twenties, after each serving missions and starting graduate studies — three months after meeting each other. Their marriage was miserable and finally ended last year. If they’d taken a bit more time, I’m pretty sure they would have seen they had some very fundamental incompatabilities. But they just didn’t, and so here we are two decades later.

In BYU culture, men and women tend to skip the friendship stage entirely, dive into the dating stage, stay there for as short a time as possible before moving on to the engagement stage, and obviously from there straight into marriage. Duh, no wonder they have problems — they don’t know the people they’re committing eternity to. That applies no matter how old you are . . . but I think young people are more prone to it. It scares me.

Comment by AnnaKaye — February 25, 2010 @ 7:46 am
It has been quite a few years since I have seen the statistics but the last I saw was that temple marriages had a significantly lower divorce rate than marriages as a whole. It also indicated that non temple marriages were about average in regards to divorce rates. Statistics also showed that regularly religious practicing couples also had much lower divorce rates.

You mention two different things in your post that I am not sure should be equated as equal. You mentioned “strong” marriages and “satisfying” marriages. What is the definition of strong marriage? Lack of divorce may not necessarily mean a happy or satisfying marriage. I am also skeptical of research surveys that asks people about happiness and satisfaction.

I believe within the Mormon culture there is also a tendency to say when asked, that one is happy in their marriage even if it is not the case. This is true of other types of social topics. Most of the readers are probably too young to remember when birth control was a way more controversial topic than it is now. A pollster who worked in Utah at the time pointed out in a lecture I attended that it was interesting to note that the polls where women indicated their use of birth control pills showed a much lower rate of use than was indicated by other more objective means of measurement. Could there be a similar situation when asking about such things as marrital bliss?

Statistics I read a few years ago also pointed out that Mormons while marrying younger than the average were also following the trend of marrying older than they did several years ago.

We also tend to get Mormon culture mixed up with Mormon doctrine. I believe there is a culture that puts pressure towards younger marriage. I don’t think you see much of that from leadership over the pulpit anymore. It’s not like many years ago when a returned missionary would be told he should marry within a year of coming home.

Marriage is complicated and surveys and statistics talk about averages but no couple is “average”. Each couple is unique. As the quote goes, “Statistics are like a string bikini, what they show is interesting but what they hide is vital”.

My marriage ended in divorce after almost 30 years. There are many things that figure into a divorce. I pretty much followed the norm for Mormons in my generation. Mission, married 20 months later in the temple. One child 13 months later. 5 more children over the next 11 years. The model Mormon family. Children married in the temple and missions etc. Still divorce happens. As stated, the reasons for divorce are complicated. I would never blame the church for my divorce but there are many things in the culture that certainly didn’t help.

Divorce rates have gone down the last year or so pretty much due to the economy. That doesn’t mean people are happier they just can’t afford divorce. There is also a trend towards people just separating and not getting divorced due to financial considerations.

Comment by cyclingred — February 25, 2010 @ 7:50 am
@ #89,

We also tend to get Mormon culture mixed up with Mormon doctrine. I believe there is a culture that puts pressure towards younger marriage. I don’t think you see much of that from leadership over the pulpit anymore.

I disagree. Here are just a few “over the pulpit”-type statements that leaders have made in recent years urging early marriage.

Comment by Steve-M — February 25, 2010 @ 8:38 am
As someone who got married “young’ and fairly fast, I’m still having a hard time with the idea of someone making a major, life altering, temple-covenant-involving decision based on hormones.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but really? Does anyone know anyone who has said that’s why they got married?

Yep. I dated a guy who was recently divorced after only a year of marriage. He admitted flat out that sex was a huge reason he got married. There were all kinds of red flags during the engagement but he overlooked them because, as he put it, he was so wound up about finally getting to have sex in only a few months. Of course he learned that sex is far from the most important thing in a marriage, the fact that his spouse was spoiled and dishonest turned out to be much more important. As a never-married myself I was incredulous when he told me “Sex is just not that big a deal,” but now that I’ve been married for several years I know what he was talking about.

Comment by Chelsea — February 25, 2010 @ 8:39 am
I don’t think this is a problem with the church or the gospel. The problem is with the ultra, ultra, ultra, ultra conservative culture that attends the dung pile in Provo which lags modern America by 20 and maybe as much as 30 years. In so many way putting all of the young LDS achievers together before they have had any life experiences to give them perspective brings out the very, very worst in LDS culture.

Comment by Majano03 — February 25, 2010 @ 8:48 am
Carrie #86 - It was the same for us. We both did better in school after getting married. Not that we did bad before, but it was nice to not have to worry about socializing. It’s great to just go to sleep in the same bed with your best friend.

Comment by Stephanie — February 25, 2010 @ 9:21 am
Please excuse me for not reading all the posts. I’m at work early and want to post quickly.The title caught my eye and I want to share. I married at 19, at BYU,in 1973, and let me tell you - the expectation was to “multiply and replenish the earth”. So we did, to the tune of six kids in 7 1/2 years. Crazy! We had moved away from Utah and x-DH had a “real” job by then but the expectation was the same everywhere we lived. Being young and having lots of kids was equated with being “righteous”. After said six kids I began using BC which x-dh HATED. We later had three more kids, spaced out more reasonably, for a total of nine kids. Lots of kids means you are following the prophet, choosing the right, blah,blah, blah. What this did to x-dh was to make him feel my purpose in life was to have babaies and to be his sex slave. After 29 years we divorced becasue I would not have more children,. Sick, sick, sick. That’s my .o2.

Comment by Sher — February 25, 2010 @ 9:35 am
As someone who got married “young’ and fairly fast, I’m still having a hard time with the idea of someone making a major, life altering, temple-covenant-involving decision based on hormones.

I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but really? Does anyone know anyone who has said that’s why they got married?

I don’t think that just because someone doesn’t admit it, that it doesn’t happen. There could have just been an innocent confusion between love and the potency of sexual attraction. For the people whose marriage works out, it doesn’t really matter. For the couples who find out after the magic of romantic love wears off a little and they discover they have no real compatability- I think those are the couples who recognize the influence physical desire played in the rush to marry. On the other hand, I do believe that we definitely need the impetus of sexual attraction to get married in the first place, so that’s why I think a decent amount of courtship time allows for the differentiation of things. For instance, if you find out something revolts you about your prospective spouse, you find out pretty quickly that intense sexual attraction can pass pretty fast.

In AllieKaye’s post, as a mother, I’d have less difficulty with the kids marrying young when they’ve known each other well for 4 years. I don’t consider it romantic at all when a new bride of 19 gleefully tells me that she met her husband and they married two months later and we are SO happy. In my estimation, that’s the same as saying, I jumped out of a plane without a parachute but everything’s fine because I landed in water (for the sake of the analogy, let’s assume the jump was low, because, from enough distance, hitting water would still be like hitting concrete).

This subject is disturbing to me lately because two of the YW who were in the program while I was in the presidency, have done just that. I felt nothing but dread when one of them went off to BYU, came home excited at break, telling me that she was marrying in the temple in 2 months, and she’d become engaged to the young man after only 1 week of dating. Worse, I have no idea if the ward members realized there was a pretty stiff divide- the people who live in our ward and come from the West were treating this as the ultimate success story. However, the New England contingent were just plain worried. Now, another one is doing something similar, but she put off marrying until the day after she turns 19 because “18 seems too young” her parents hail from Utah and I honestly think they see themselves as progressive by having her wait until she’s 19…but, although that extended their courtship, she is planning the wedding while he is in school and they do not see each other across the country. So, the extension of time isn’t really giving her much one on one exposure and I’m still worried. I know the delightful RM who is marrying her, he happened to serve his mission in our ward years ago (he’s 24, which does help some) but…I’d feel so much better if she wasn’t only 19, and a very innocent 19 at that. Maybe my unease stems more from the fact that she’s so wrapped up in the triumph of getting married. I don’t know. I really, really want to be wrong…I want to be as wrong as I can be.

Comment by Kimberly — February 25, 2010 @ 9:48 am
Stephanie, go ahead and tell me I’m crazy…but doesn’t it seem like there is very real pressure on LDS young people if by getting married, they can concentrate more on their school work? I mean, when I was in college, my social life did not seem like a burden at all-especially not to the extent that it interfered with my school work. It increased my enjoyment of college, but I had nothing hanging over my head that even implied that I had to address the marriage issue anytime soon…that was completely separate.
I was going to marry Paul early because we’d gotten pregnant after an inadvisable jump in the sack when he received his deployment notice. I was going to marry him eventually and had known him my whole life, but I had no cultural pressure to do so- only the result of our spontaneous madness. Of course, it makes me a walking argument for marrying so you don’t have sex before marriage….but, that’s a different issue.

Comment by Kimberly — February 25, 2010 @ 10:05 am
I agree that way more important than the age of the couple is how long they have known each other. Two 19 year olds who have dated, happily, for a couple years are probably in a lot better place to know what they are getting into with marriage than two 30 year olds who have only known each other for a month. Doesn’t mean those 19 year olds aren’t going to change as they grow and mature and that things won’t be hard, but at least they have a strong, solid history together–something to fall back on when times get tough.

I know there are lots of success stories of people who end up having a great marriage after only knowing each other for 2 months. Of course two people can make it work–arranged marriages also often succeed. but as far as giving everyone the best chance of being happy and having the marriage work for them, knowing each other longer is safer. My parents were older, and therefore thought they knew exactly what they wanted in a spouse and were anxious to get going with starting a family, so they had a short, long distance courtship, which meant that they really only had the equivalent of a couple vacations together before they married. They stayed together, there marriage, from the outside, was okay, but it never was great and my mom even alluded to the fact that if she’d actually gotten to know my dad, she probably wouldn’t have married him because they didn’t communicate well and she didn’t have anything close to the relationship she’d dreamed of, and been holding out for for years. She did get 3 kids out of it who she loves, but I think she’s had a pretty lonely life.

Other than sex, I can’t really see an argument for getting engaged a week after meeting–so what if you know he’s the one–won’t he still be the one in a few months (and if not, wouldn’t you rather be dating instead of married when you realize that?) Sexual attraction is strong. The initial excitement when you are getting to know someone new is awesome. But marriage is for a long, long time and all of that is going to change. I felt a lot more secure going into it with a guy who I’d known for 3 years, had developed a long friendship with, and who I’d seen change and grow, so I knew that we were capable of doing that together.

Comment by Kim — February 25, 2010 @ 10:06 am
I have struggled with how to teach my children to prepare for whatever comes their way, and looked closely at the expectations I may unconsciously put on them. This goes for sons and daughters, but I do think it is more tricky for women. Whether it should be or not, it just is. I finally decided I just need to raise them to be spiritually, physically, and emotionally independent. Then when it comes time to make that decision, there is a greater chance it is the right one.

Of course there are anecdotes on both sides. I married young at 22 (DH was 25) and see my marriage as very happy and healthy (18 years later). We divide housework not exactly (wouldn’t make sense as I am at home when I can be) but equally and parent the same way. He is a very involved father and a very supportive partner. My sister married at 30 to her boyfriend she had been living with for a few years. She continued in her profession, and very much works the second shift. She does all the housework and childcare; she’s the one who takes off work for the dr appointments and sick days, puts kids to bed, goes shopping, bathes kids. And I guess now I am equating a happy healthy marriage with one where the partners are equally yoked according to MY definition.

Comment by TXgirl — February 25, 2010 @ 10:19 am
Huh, I guess I read the proclamation on the family differently…where does it say men don’t nurture? where is that taught in our church? I don’t get that at all. I understand some of the older generation doesn’t cross roles much…but that isn’t chruch doctrine. I have heard the prophet say get and education specifically to women-and be prepared to financially help-

I do think some people don’t teach that and get caught up in the just get married young..marriage is more important than school etc…

IMO strong marriages come from people who are committed to make it work-make the changes necessary in themselves and their relationship to love each other. It’s about patience and kindness and not taking offense and gentleness and thinking about the other person instead of yourself.

It’s not money, or age or anything else, but an ability to love and receive love…it’s determination to make it work and never give up. I think that is the goal of temple marriage-giving you the background to love and the committment to follow through when it’s not easy.

I get that abuse is an exception please don’t say otherwise….

I think our church does a good job at teaching that married people need to stick it out-love is not a place you fall into or out of…it’s a way of being.

I understand certain bishops or leaders or parents teach otherwise-but the doctrine of the church is certainly not so.

The whole egalitarian thing…it’s not a matter of who does what for me, it’s all about doing what needs to be done for your family-the two of you figuring out what best works for you and getting it done-when someone needs help-you help…the end. It doesn’t need to be both working, or rejecting stereotypes so much as ignoring stereotypes and looking instead at the needs in your family.

Comment by britt--the brat — February 25, 2010 @ 10:23 am
Kimberly, yes, I think that if you tell a young person that they will do better in school by getting married, it could cause undue pressure. And it wouldn’t necessarily be true. The stress of a bad marriage could make you do much worse in school. But, for DH and I, we both did better and life was easier married than it was when we were single. BUT both of us felt like we had long enough to be single first, too. I think that’s important. I got married at 21, but I had been completely on my own for 3 years and was pretty much independent and responsible for myself while living at home for all of high school. Both DH and I are older than our years. I feel like I’ve always been 30.

I think that waiting to be married has more to do with maturity (emotional, spiritual, physical) than with age. DH and I have brothers well into their 20s who are still not mature enough to get married. Interestingly, there is an article in the February Ensign that relates to this: “That They May Grow Up in Thee”: Markers of Adulthood for Young Singles. Reading this gives me the impression that we might have a maturity problem among some young single adults, which is even more of a reason to encourage waiting to get married. In fact, that’s pretty much what this article says. Grow up now - don’t wait for marriage to grow up. For example:

The reality is, singles do not have to wait for marriage to create their own home, even if it is a small space in a home or apartment.

Regarding DH and I, being married was so mutually beneficial at that point in our lives. DH’s financial situation improved greatly thanks to my scholarships, and he liked living with me more than his smelly roommates. I started my MBA right after we got married, and he made my lunches and made dinner every day. We shopped together and cleaned the house on the weekend. Life was literally BLISS. I wouldn’t have changed a thing.

Comment by Stephanie — February 25, 2010 @ 10:43 am
It doesn’t need to be both working, or rejecting stereotypes so much as ignoring stereotypes and looking instead at the needs in your family.

Well said, britt.

Comment by Stephanie — February 25, 2010 @ 10:45 am
I like that article Stephanie…the thing is time does not = maturity automatically.

So waiting won’t do it-actually maturing-choosing to take responsibility of your situation and learning how to do so-that will bring maturity.

Comment by britt--the brat — February 25, 2010 @ 10:46 am
I think it would be very interesting if all the people who commented with this post added the following:
Current Marital status:
Ever Married:
Age When Married:
Current Marital status:
Years married:

One looks at things much differently when they have experienced more.

Comment by cyclingred — February 25, 2010 @ 10:46 am
Exactly, britt.

Comment by Stephanie — February 25, 2010 @ 10:46 am
Okay, cyclingred.

Married, 1 time
21 when married
Currently married - 12 years

Comment by Stephanie — February 25, 2010 @ 10:50 am
My rule of thumb for my kids is that no one should get engaged until they’ve had a great big huge fight. Gotta see how the other person fights Rules out marriage proposals after 1 week.

Comment by cms — February 25, 2010 @ 10:57 am
@ britt (#99),

Huh, I guess I read the proclamation on the family differently…where does it say men don’t nurture? where is that taught in our church?

The Proclamation does not say that men are not to nurture, but it does suggest that, relative to women, men bear less of the responsibility for nurturing children. The Proclamation states:

By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.

The word “primarily” is amenable to two interpretations: (1) that women’s highest priority ought to be the nurturing of children; or (2) that, as between men and women, women bear the lion’s share of the responsibility for nurturing children.

The first interpretation does not say anything about men’s nurturing responsibility; under this view, one might argue that “fathers are also primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.” However, context (as well as the maxim expressio unius est exclusio alterius) suggests that the second interpretation is the correct one.

The Proclamation enumerates gender roles. Men are to preside, provide, and protect; women are to nurture children. The spouses are “obligated to help one another,” but not to switch hats.

Comment by Steve-M — February 25, 2010 @ 10:58 am
There’s a lot to be said for delaying marriage, but I’m 25 and I want to be married.
There are more single women in this church than men, and it doesn’t just feel like the longer you wait, all the good men are taken, it’s actually true. I know many happy, successful, righteous, beautiful women in their 30’s who would like to get married in the temple, but there is just nobody out there. And even though they are happy and successful, I also know that it is incredibly difficult for them to attend a family ward.
I don’t feel like a bad feminist for wanting to get married, I just want an equal partner who I can help, and who can help me through this life. Isn’t marriage supposed to develop your personal progression, and not hinder it?

Comment by Jane — February 25, 2010 @ 11:03 am
I agree completely with Kimberly in #51. I think financial stability is very important - not being wealthy per se, but the ability to support oneself and one’s children (and agree on financial issues).

Money, kids, family - all are big ticket issues that many couples differ on (as many people differ on). I believe that when a person is a bit older, they are better able to identify conflict, allow and resolve conflict (agree to disagree) and admit to their feelings.

Just as an aside, I think it would be nice for couples to talk about contingency plans if things go wrong before they get married. I read somewhere the other day about a couple talking about going to therapy if certain things happened (or if either person wanted to) and also, who would move out in case one person wanted to leave the marriage. It may sound pessimistic, but I thought it also sounded realistic. Of course, agreements can always change - but having two parents who are willing to put their kids first can make a huge difference if divorce happens.

Perhaps it’s not a popular view, but people do change, and I believe divorce is not the worst thing in the world. I am glad that women and men both have the freedom to leave a marriage where they are unhappy, unable to resolve major differences or where abuse is happening. I believe the older people are, the more experience they have (and the more they view other people’s marriages and relationships, their own, close friends, etc.) the more knowledge they might have about what is out there.

Finally, I think the message absolutely needs to be sent to everyone, better no marriage than a bad marriage. I would much rather my children never get married then get married just because everyone else is, or they think they will never find a good match for them. JMO. I know plenty of happy, stable, successful single people - and I believe it is possible. I don’t remember hearing that message (often) growing up.

Comment by aerin — February 25, 2010 @ 11:03 am
. . . To be clear, I’m not endorsing the gender roles enumerated in the Proclamation. I’m just pointing them out. I therefore think it’s difficult to say that respect for traditional gender roles is merely a cultural trend in Mormonism.

Comment by Steve-M — February 25, 2010 @ 11:04 am
Current Marital status: married
Ever Married: (see above)
age when married - to not reveal my age, I will say mid twenties
Years married: 9 years dated prior to marriage: 4

(probably should mention that I’m not active and my husband has never been mormon).

I have worked hard on my marriage, but I don’t wear it as a badge -just because I’m currently married doesn’t mean that I am better (or worse) than anyone else or have more knowledge about this topic. Everyone has the right to their own opinions and perceptions.

Comment by aerin — February 25, 2010 @ 11:07 am
Steve, go ahead and quote latin and read it that way… Shall we discard completely this paragraph? :Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. “Children are an heritage of the Lord” (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

Shall we all discount that the proclamation says there are exception and circumstances that require adaption? -including swtiching hats?

Why give primarily responsible such power and completely discount “obligated” to help each other?what do you read that as meaning? -throw a slight effort every once in a while that direction?

There is a whole paragraph stating that both parents are responsible, one sentence stating who is primarily responsible with a caveat….

carry on with narrow definitions if you must.

Comment by britt--the brat — February 25, 2010 @ 11:12 am
Current Marital status: Married
Age When Married: 20 (two weeks before my 21st birthday)
Years married: 11

We met March 31st, got engaged May 22nd (though we knew we were getting married after two weeks) and were married August 26th.

Some people might look at that and say it was all hormones. I knew it was a good choice for me.

I’d be not thrilled if my child did the same thing, but I suppose it’s easier to trust your own feelings and promptings than it is to trust your child’s.

If we do have young people getting married solely for sex, how do you stop that? Is it a problem with societies focus on sex and appearance?

That’s just scary.

Comment by Alliegator — February 25, 2010 @ 11:20 am
As stated in #89 I was married young and had six children. Got divorced/separated 2 and 1/2 years ago. Currently 3 of my children are married. Two followed the mormon norm. The oldest daughter didn’t get married until around 28. I currently have a son who is over 25 and not married.

Based on my experience I would not encourage my children to get married young. By young I mean I am prefectly happy for them to wait until mid twenties. I also wouldn’t encourage them to have six children. Of course the problem with saying that is that at the same time I wouldn’t give up any of my six. Yes I am divorced but our family was very functional. We are still are on very good terms including me and my ex.

But… As has been pointed out it can be hard to find a spouse once you leave the college scene. This is more true for Mormons and especially true if your work takes you to smaller metropolitan areas. It is also more true for women. Here D.C. I see so many great single women in the late 20-mid 30 range. But it isn’t just mormons. Checkout an article in the Washington Post today about single college educated black women and their problems with finding a spouse.

Comment by cyclingred — February 25, 2010 @ 11:30 am
Britt,

I’m not ignoring the rest of the Proclamation; the paragraph you quote is consistent with my reading of the paragraph I quoted. Yes, the Proclamation states that both parents are responsible to “love and care for . . . their children,” and to ” rear their children in love and righteousness.” But it then proceeds to enumerate how, in the General Authorities’ eyes, each parent is to fulfill this obligation.

According to the Proclamation, the various parental responsibilities–presiding, bread-winning, nurturing, and so on–are not to be allocated without regard to gender. As it states, “[g]ender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.” The Proclamation enumerates the ideal allocation of parental responsibilities between father and mother, and claims that this allocation comports with “divine design.”

Sure, the Proclamation states that spouses are to “help one another” in their respective responsibilities, and it even acknowledges that “[d]isability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.” But that’s a far cry from saying, “You guys figure things out–it doesn’t matter to us (or to God) how you allocate parental responsibilities between husband and wife.”

To be clear, I don’t agree with the Proclamation’s stance on gender roles. I think it’s downright wrong, in fact. But I don’t think we can plausibly read it as not prescribing gender-based parental responsibilities–including those related to the nurturing of children.

Comment by Steve-M — February 25, 2010 @ 11:31 am
“Other circumstances” is pretty broad. I have no problem with “other circumstances” including “traditional roles just don’t work for our family”.

Just because it’s a tiny little phrase in a much bigger document, doesn’t mean it can’t apply to large groups of people.

Comment by Alliegator — February 25, 2010 @ 11:38 am
Geoff, #48, thanks so much for your added perspective.
Alyssa, #50, after posting my comment, my daughter walked in, so we chatted about it for a minute. She said to not worry, that she wouldn’t marry young, and that if there weren’t any good Mormon guys to marry when she was ready, that she’d marry someone who wasn’t Mormon. I think that’s a pretty workable solution, since I only had the most positive opinions of each of my nonmember boyfriends… they would have all made excellent husbands and fathers.
Melissa P, #52, thanks for your sympathy. My parents got really nervous when I went on a mission. (How would I meet anyone to marry there??) But yes, I’m alright now… middle aged people are resilient!
Kim, #57, both my MP and my husband’s MP really preached that as soon as we returned home, our next and most important mission was to get married… to not put it off for anything. I think we would have both taken things more slowly without such encouragement
Kim, #61, to be honest, every Mormon I personally know fell into that pattern. Maybe I don’t know a lot of Mormons though. I thought I might have figured it wrong, so I gave it more thought but none of the Mormons that I know that married after 25, married a never married person. I do know a lot that have married divorced men though. I know plenty of couples who married later on… to people who’d never been married… but none of them are Mormon.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 25, 2010 @ 11:46 am
Current Marital status: married
Age When Married: 24 (DH was the same age)
Years married: 7

My husband and I started dating in November, got engaged in January, and were married in May, so it was a quick courtship. However, we had already known each other for 9 years when we started dating. There is no way I would have jumped into marriage that quickly with someone I had just met - at 24 I had already seen friends my age get married too fast and get divorced soon after.

Could it possibly be a good thing that our hormones push us to get married? I have heard men at church comment that if it weren’t for the standard of celibacy before marriage, they wouldn’t have a compelling reason to settle down early, if at all.

Comment by Chelsea — February 25, 2010 @ 11:49 am
FWIW Steve-M, I think your reading of the Proclamation is spot on, and I have the same concerns about it that you do.

Comment by Chelsea — February 25, 2010 @ 11:51 am
I got married at 19, been married for 10 years, still married to the same guy.

My brother is in a singles ward where everybody is a little bit older than at the BYU wards, and he says there is such an unhealthy vibe there. In the student wards, he said there was still an underlying feeling that you had plenty of time and plenty of people. So even though the pressure to marry was there, it made a little more sense. But now, the pressure is much more intense and the playfulness of dating and flirting has faded. And the competitiveness is terrible. He knows there are awesome people there, but it is hard to get to know them.
He’s only 27, and there are lots of people even younger than him. It makes me sad that church, which is supposed to be a haven, is such a negative experience. Of course, I struggle with church too for different reasons.

Comment by jen — February 25, 2010 @ 11:52 am
If we do have young people getting married solely for sex, how do you stop that? Is it a problem with societies focus on sex and appearance?

I’d like to think it isn’t soley based on sex- and I don’t think it’s a total negative to consider it either, since we need to be attracted to each other to marry and procreate. But, my grandmother used to say, “You can’t put old heads on young shoulders,” whenever she witnessed our youthful stupidity (that was our cue for knowing she thought we were dead wrong and she usually ended up being dead right). Maybe some of it just can’t be helped once youthful passion gets its way. The young generation hasn’t come up with any new mistakes, that’s for sure…and there’s literature from centuries ago that has adults questioning the folly of youth.
Besides, as a parent, I’ve seen my children avoid some of my errors just to come up with variations all their own. Who knows?

Comment by Kimberly — February 25, 2010 @ 11:53 am
Cecile, #62, I know that sex and love and all those great emotions are all tied up together, so it is extra tricky to know what someone’s true motivation for marriage really is. I don’t think anyone would just marry for sex, because we marry for loads of reasons, not just one. However, because (as Mormons) we aren’t supposed to take care of our own sexual needs outside of marriage (even alone), there is an even greater motive to marry… not necessarily to express our love completely to our beloved, but to just be sexually fulfilled personally. So I think if someone is desperate enough for sex (or for freedom from the guilt masturbation brings) they might even trick themselves into believing they are marrying for true love… when love is a lesser motive.

Kimberly, #66, I agree with you on every point. Even though I knew my husband for years before we married, I didn’t know very much about him really (in the ways you mentioned), so the first few years of marriage were one surprise after another. For us, early marriage felt like we were just still dating and getting to know each other.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 25, 2010 @ 11:56 am
It’s much scarier to think of my children finding someone to marry than it was for myself to find someone to marry.

Comment by Alliegator — February 25, 2010 @ 12:00 pm
Alliegator,

That’s fine if you want to read the Proclamation that way, but with all due respect (and I mean that), I don’t think your interpretation is all that plausible.

The Proclamation lists death and disability as examples of “circumstances” that “necessitate” individual adaptation. The implication is that variance from “divine design” is only warranted when necessary to cope with exigent circumstances. It’s difficult to fit “we just don’t like traditional gender roles” into this exception.

Trying to read this exception into the document also conflicts with its overall import. The Proclamation’s message is fairly clear–in a marriage, men and women have different (but complementary) responsibilities, and God doesn’t want us to deviate from those except when absolutely necessary.

I’m not trying to push a narrow, rigid interpretation of the Proclamation. I’m simply saying that attempting to read gender roles out of it (or our own personal exceptions into it) requires that we overcome some huge interpretational hurdles. If a Latter-day Saint rejects gender roles, it’s going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him/her to plausibly reconcile that view with the Proclamation.

So what am I driving at? In my view, it is much more productive for those Latter-day Saints who disagree with the notion that traditional gender roles are divinely-prescribed to simply reject the Proclamation’s enumeration of gender roles. Why can’t we just admit that we think it’s wrong? Why should we feel compelled to stretch its meaning so as to reconcile it with our non-traditional views?

If the Church proposes to canonize this document, I for one will “vote” against it.

Comment by Steve-M — February 25, 2010 @ 12:02 pm
Re #52 Melissa P.

Engagement is the time to figure out if marriage is not the best idea, not just the time to plan plan plan plan.

I’m going to disagree strongly with this statement. In my mind, getting engaged is making a commitment to marry that person. If you don’t know them well enough to be sure if you want to get married, you have no business getting engaged in the first place. Getting engaged shouldn’t be like calling *dibs* on a person.

I’m also a big proponent of people (especially women) not getting married until they can stand on their own two feet. I believe women need a period where no one is providing for them except themselves to learn how to function independently. It’s easier to learn to do this while you’re young, single, and childless than when you’re older and divorced/widowed and have children in the picture.

Comment by Dancer 007 — February 25, 2010 @ 12:03 pm
Foiled by the block quote button yet again!

Comment by Dancer 007 — February 25, 2010 @ 12:04 pm
Current Marital status: Married
Age When Married: 28
Years married: 0.25

Let’s see
We met in early April. We were engaged ~4 months later, and married ~3 months after that.

I’ll admit I was protesting the fast engagement; I’d always felt I ought to date much longer before marrying. The two word explanation for my policy change: divine intervention. Sadly, then I became the gal pushing a fast engagement. It’s fun being a hypocrite.

Comment by Janell the Great — February 25, 2010 @ 12:04 pm
Steve-M

I admit my motivation behind “reading” the proclamation the way i do is to reconcile it with how I feel about my relationship with God. I think including death and disability right before other circumstances is unfortunate, because it does give the idea that other circumstances are a rare occurrence.

I just don’t feel like God would have his children living in roles that make them miserable jut because we don’t have all the information at this time. I also feel like the proclamation to the family is inspired, so I have to find a way to reconcile those two views.

That’s kind of what life is all about.

Comment by Alliegator — February 25, 2010 @ 12:10 pm
@ Britt,

I just don’t feel like God would have his children living in roles that make them miserable jut because we don’t have all the information at this time.

I completely agree.

I also feel like the proclamation to the family is inspired, so I have to find a way to reconcile those two views.

I see where you’re coming from. And I also understand that, in order for non-traditional ideas to be palatable in Mormon circles, it often helps if we can make them seem consistent with ideas and sources that most Mormons consider authoritative.

There are certainly parts of the Proclamation that I would consider inspired. But like so much in religion, I feel that the document is a mix of the human and divine (and perhaps the Proclamation is a little heavier on the “human” ingredients, in my opinion). Which, I suppose, is why I prefer to just disregard portions of it.

Comment by Steve-M — February 25, 2010 @ 12:16 pm
Oops, my last comment was directed to Alliegator, not Britt. D’oh!

Comment by Steve-M — February 25, 2010 @ 12:17 pm
Perhaps instead of age we could focus on how we and the church could better encourage maturity (stephanie’s case is a good one-her age at marriage wasn’t old, but maturity wise that’s different, or how we and the church could best develop the ability to love and be loved…or how we could foster better attitudes about sex, within the context of abstinence…

or how we can encourage marriage in a healthy way without pressuring-I think if we are encouraging maturity-we can rest on the decisions of the mature young people-i was never pressured by leaders in that way-but it did help that upon graduation from BYU I went on a mission, then moved to CA-where 23 is young.

the whole idea of waiting is interesting in our culture, when many on this thread have said they wanted to wait but God suggested otherwise…
In my case we were engaged 5 months after knowing each other almost 3 years (but 1.5 of that was my mission) I was not one to put off marriage, or wait, but I prayed and there I went…my grandpa died during our engagement and a short engagement wouldn’t have worked…

Comment by britt — February 25, 2010 @ 12:24 pm
Married at age 26, almost 27
Still married, 7 years later.

#117 Ahhhh…. I suppose that if you got married young, then you don’t meet as many still single people in singles ward and don’t know as many, so of course you wouldn’t necessarily know as many who both married for the first time after 25. I just know from my singles ward, I watched this happen all the time. Sure, there were more women than men, and there was occasionally some competition, but for the most part, it was a pretty awesome group of people who really wanted to do the right thing, and wanted to find someone to settle down with, it was just a matter of finding the right one. And one thing I have seen is that a lot of my girl friends who have married closer to 30 than 25 have married guys a little (or a lot) younger than them, so I guess that does suggest that there are less guys to choose from the older you get. But I don’t really see how thats a bad thing–you love ‘em, you love ‘em, who cares if they’re only 25 when you are 30.

I actually think that when we talk about maturity and experience, its funny that so many people at BYU are the ones getting married so young because I definitely didn’t feel like I was really on my own until I left the rules at school, the “contracts” at the apartments, the cleaning checks–and finally had to really take care of myself and make my own rules and find roomates and places to live and take care of and furnish it. BYU felt like a transitional state to move from living with my parents to being a full-fledged adult. I think that DH, who went to a UC and had to do all of that from the time he left home at 17 was MUCH more mature than I was through those years (and I think having all that responsibility young was part of why he wanted to enjoy his single years–we both had a lot of fun, and growing experiences, before we settled down and now face the responsibilities of family life.)

Comment by Kim — February 25, 2010 @ 12:54 pm
I don’t have any comments to add to the discussion, but I can throw in my stats as others have done:

Current Marital status: married
Age When Married: 29 (DH was 31)
Years married: 9
kids: 2

We have a fairly egalitarian marriage w.r.t. housework and who makes the decisions. However, it’s not entirely egalitarian: where we live has been mostly based on his career (and I’ve had to quit multiple jobs to move for him), plus I chose to make several mommy-track decisions (working part-time now, and working from home when my kids were babies/toddlers).

Satisfaction: good. Overall, I think we have a happy family life.

Comment by chanson — February 25, 2010 @ 1:14 pm
Alliegator, #74, I’ve known several men who said they got married primarily for sex. One was my brother in law… who said that the “need” was so strong, that he decided to get married one week and the next week was engaged to my sister, whom he’d known for only a few days. They were married less than two months after that. Decades later, they have a large family and are active in the church, but their marriage hasn’t really been that great.

Maybe part of it is the fact that he’s willing to casually tell me that he needed “it” so badly, he was ready to get married to get it, and anyone would have sufficed (words he actually said to me). I’ve never told my sister that she was just in the right place at the right time… but I think she knows. Things haven’t ever been really good between them… in part because their love didn’t flourish before their (his?) passion did. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have married… but I think they could have had a better marriage had they had more of a foundation… maybe if he had fallen in love with her before deciding to get married. He was more converted to the idea that he would follow through with his plan to get married rather than that he loved her so much that he wanted to marry HER.

He actually had a previous girlfriend he didn’t marry but could have, and he DID have the sort of feelings for her he probably should have had to be married. I know he (and his parents even) regret that he didn’t marry her… but she was on a mission when he decided to get married… so he married my sister instead. My sister has suffered a lot over their lengthy marriage most likely because her husband just wasn’t that into HER when they got married… and if she didn’t know it then, she does now. She’s well aware of the past girlfriend her husband should have married… and of his feelings of regret. But hey, at least he was morally chaste and didn’t have sex (or anything like unto it) before marriage.

I think another thing that contributes to people thinking young marriage with almost virtual strangers might be a good idea is the quote by Spencer W. Kimball where he says that any two people can marry as long as they live the gospel. In fact, my brother in law mentioned that quote as the deciding factor for marrying my sister. Living the gospel is great, but it doesn’t guarantee a lot of key components in marriage… like our motivation to marry in the first place.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 25, 2010 @ 1:36 pm
Sofia, #64, your observations are excellent and spot on. Thanks.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 25, 2010 @ 1:39 pm
I don’t have time to read all comments but…

I went to BYU for a few years before transferring. One of the main reasons was that, at 21, I started feeling immense pressure to marry even though I had zero desire to do so. I couldn’t get out of there fast enough, it was so weird.

RE maturity level: Bugs me when someone says “I was ‘19′ when I got married but I was so mature.” First, even at 12, I thought I was mature. Looking back, clearly I wasn’t. And besides, if you’re THAT mature at a young age, STOP being so mature. There is a time and season for everything, including being young and immature. Why the rush to hurry and mature? Don’t get it at all.

RE young marriage/sex: There is a correlation. And for what it’s worth, I’d much rather my daughters have sex in a committed relationship and not marry the guy than marry at a young age. I hope and pray and my daughters don’t end in UT around a culture where kids marry young.

RE divorce: Divorce rates may be much lower in the church, especially for marriages in the temple. But… as far as I can tell, those marriages are no more happier and, therefore, I don’t think this is anything to celebrate. My first marriage was MISERABLE– I mean the most horrid marriage one can imagine. Growing up in the church, I didn’t think divorce should ever be an option. But, standing on the other side, I firmly believe that there are FAR WORSE things than a divorce– and a bad marriage is one of them.

Comment by Lulubelle — February 25, 2010 @ 1:51 pm
RCH, #76, how interesting. I like the way you worded that…

“And I love my DH for more than his hot body, lol. But … yeah. I think it’s naive to say that horniness — ESPECIALLY among determined virgins — doesn’t overtake the rational side of the brain for many people.”

Still, as young and interested in sex as I felt, I still understood the serious nature of marriage. I personally didn’t marry out of hormonal motivations. My main (unconsidered but later discovered) motive to marry early was probably fear. I didn’t want to be alone… and I’d been to enough (pretty lame) young adult single ward activities and dances… to have that fear highlighted. I knew my husband for several years when we married… we’d been great friends for the first stretch and pretty devoted to eachother for more than two years. Still, even though I think we found the right person to marry in each other, we weren’t really ready to marry when we did… and we did for pretty simple reasons (in addition to all of the wonderful reasons we verbally claimed). For me, it was the fear of being alone. For my husband, it was for sex. Thank goodness he still thinks sex is a good motivator, because I no longer fear being alone.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 25, 2010 @ 2:01 pm
I don’t know is meant by egalitarian in regards to gender roles. What questions did the interviews ask?

Traditional marriage does not preclude egalitarian attitudes toward gender roles. It is a question of the division of responsibilities and what each party in the marriage sees as reasonable and equitable. When the satisfactions outweigh the sacrifices then I suppose any form of relationship becomes egalitarian as opposed to autocratic. Then of course one must remember that in an autocratic marriage either partner can be the autocrat. Roles can mean different things in different times and different places.

I need more information

Comment by Claudia — February 25, 2010 @ 2:09 pm
Lulubelle, premarital sex -especially co habitation increases liklihood of divorce…

If you want to put out there that marriages in the church aren’t happier in general (with no statistic to be found-just a guess or soemthing)–let’s just for fun assume that’s true…I’ll tell you who wins when marriages stay in tact (baring abuse) CHILDREN! They win. So even IF your guess is true, there is a win there and it’s a rather huge one.

Comment by britt--the brat — February 25, 2010 @ 2:16 pm
I must confess that this issues bothers me as well. I married in the temple at 20. I won’t go into the gory details, but let’s just say I have been very, very blessed. I have loved my husband everyday of our marriage (19 years now) and I survived 4 wonderful step children, a crazy ex-wife, and 5 fabulous children of my own. It’s both beautiful and overwhelming to me.

Having said that - I have four daughters and my wish for them is that they do what they want to do first - i.e., travel, college, other forms of education, etc., without regard to the LDS cultural expectations. I also want them to marry. I don’t want them to get caught up in the “world” and miss out on the chance to marry. I want them to be thoughtful and insightful about who they marry. Life is too hard to do marriage wrong. My thought and prayers are with them always in this regard. There are no easy answers.

I guess the best I can do is prepare them for all the possibilities I can forsee.

Comment by Stephanie — February 25, 2010 @ 2:17 pm
RE maturity level: Bugs me when someone says “I was ‘19′ when I got married but I was so mature.” First, even at 12, I thought I was mature. Looking back, clearly I wasn’t. And besides, if you’re THAT mature at a young age, STOP being so mature. There is a time and season for everything, including being young and immature. Why the rush to hurry and mature? Don’t get it at all.

Nice. You know what? Being married at 19 was fun! Yeah, it was hard, but I married my best friend and when we got married, it meant that we got to spend even more time enjoying each other’s company. So yeah, I wasn’t “mature” enough to be a mom yet, but I was mature enough to be married and love life and experience being young together with my husband. We were very suited for each other and once we found each other, didn’t really want to spend time with anyone else. We’ve both changed a lot since then, but yeah, we’ve grown together. And it isn’t like we are unique. I know lots of people who married young and loved it and still love it. I also know lots who struggled. And I know a few who grew apart and divorced. But it bugs me when people say things like “why rush to hurry and mature.” We weren’t rushing. We were enjoying life together. We are lucky that it worked out so well, but allowing ourselves to be led by inspiration had a lot to do with that. I don’t really advocate people marrying that young either, but it isn’t the end of the world when it does happen. I wasn’t going to get married until I had accomplished a lot more, but things just didn’t work out that way. And I’m so glad it didn’t.

Comment by jen — February 25, 2010 @ 2:21 pm
I got married at 19, as well. It was completely against my life plan of finishing college then maybe getting married, but Mr. Eris was nearly 6 years older and we were in love. Our financial situation was precarious (still is) but we have been supremely happy for most of our 15 years and I am finishing my phd with his support.

With all that, ask my daughters (ages 4 and 7) when they will get married and they will tell you what I have instructed them: “When I am 25 and done with college.” Maybe the next generation will get it right.

PS - I was an “old maid” in my family. Grandma married at 16, Mom at 17. 19 was ancient by local standards

Comment by Eris — February 25, 2010 @ 2:44 pm
Isn’t it interesting how many of us got married young but don’t want our children to do the same.

Comment by cyclingred — February 25, 2010 @ 2:55 pm
Steve- (129)

There are certainly parts of the Proclamation that I would consider inspired. But like so much in religion, I feel that the document is a mix of the human and divine (and perhaps the Proclamation is a little heavier on the “human” ingredients, in my opinion). Which, I suppose, is why I prefer to just disregard portions of it.

I agree with you, I think most everything we have in the gospel is filtered through the lens of human experience, and as we learn, we understand more and more.

I’m not prepared to state how much of the proclamation I think is “human” ingredients and how much is inspired, but I feel good about my interpretation right now, so I don’t worry about it too much.

Comment by Alliegator — February 25, 2010 @ 3:10 pm
Re 143

But why is that? I do think it’s interesting that several people on here have commented that they got married young, and don’t regret it but want their children to wait. Why? If it was such a good idea why wouldn’t you want your children to do the same thing?

Comment by Dancer 007 — February 25, 2010 @ 3:10 pm
And besides, if you’re THAT mature at a young age, STOP being so mature. There is a time and season for everything, including being young and immature. Why the rush to hurry and mature? Don’t get it at all.

Lulubelle, you say this as if it is a choice. I realized pretty quickly that if I wanted to eat, I needed to be responsible for getting something for myself to eat. I was doing laundry when I was 3. I have the picture to prove it. At age 14, I knew that the only way I was going to escape a life like my mother’s or my childhood was to get into college on scholarship and get through it as fast as I could. I am not sure what being “young and immature” while being financially supported to do so would be like. It was never an option for me.

Comment by Stephanie — February 25, 2010 @ 3:11 pm
And I’m really not trying to be a snot when I ask that. I just can’t fathom being married that young. I was married at 24, am 25 now and my parents still think that was a little young for such a large commitment. They were married at 28. We have no young marriages in our family, so it’s unfamiliar territory for me.

Comment by Dancer 007 — February 25, 2010 @ 3:11 pm
I have noticed this post got a lot of back lash because Lisa suggested that studies have show more egalitarian marriages and marriages with older couples tend to be happier. OBVIOUSLY those are blanket statements and as Joe Schmidt pointed out there are incidentals to one thing being studied that might affect the outcome of the study. And all the points people pointed out about that are valid, but I don’t think Lisa mean to say that there was hard core imperial evidence that one way is better.

It seems like the jist of the post was not to start and argument about which way is better (younger vs older couples or in terms of gender roles) but I think it was written more to point out that it is becoming obvious that the church culture often pushes big time to get married soon and follow stereotypical gender roles when it is clear that those are not always the best choices for people. Obviously this can be taken couple by couple and story by story. But it seems like the meat of the question was WHY does church culture hang on to an old fashioned ideal of the virtue of early marriage, or gender role separation in marriage so strongly?

I took my shot at “why” that I admit was very simplistic, and totally just a guess.

Since we are sharing stats, I was sucked into a young marriage to an RM at age 20. When I was engaged, though I had known him fro only 4 months, and there were big red flags that he was ill (mentally) everyone just assumed it was going to be the right thing to do and it was going to work out because he was an RM and we were doing what God surely wanted. I know some people that it works out for. I suffered 9 years of manipulation and indimidation and still felt guilty when I “gave up” on him and walked away from it.

Comment by zaissa — February 25, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
I guess I support a more ‘realist’ point of view. If we teach our children only about fantasy land marriage - then they will be hit hard with the reality. And while there are definitely some dreamy aspects - success in marriage is no different than success in other areas. It takes work.

I think marriage and kids both work by some similar rules:

1. Although they can be a great source of happiness, if you’re miserable now, they aren’t going to magically make you happy. (This rule also applies to other things that might be related to this topic, such as money and sex).
2. Both take work, and if you don’t think they do - you’re not ready to take them on. They add additional financial responsibilities, other types of responsibilities, and make you need to work to make compromises.
3. The more mature you are when you choose to take on these responsibilities, the wiser you will be when you’re faced with the inevitable challenges.

I got married at 19 (and am only 22 currently), and even though my stated age makes me feel like I was getting married way before I should have, I can very confidently say that my life experiences up to 19 helped me know exactly what I was getting myself into. That I was choosing to take on those additional responsibilities in order to have him by my side as my husband. And my marriage is currently one of the happiest I know of.
I also know very clearly (as not only the oldest child, but also the oldest grandchild) the responsibilities (and joys) associated with children, and I know very clearly that I’m not yet ready for those responsibilities. I think that a child shouldn’t have to live a substandard life just bc/ their parents were baby hungry or were feeling pressured to pop them out right away. (P.S. mom - I’m 22 - I don’t think I quite have to worry about the ticking of my biological clock yet.)

Comment by Alicia C. — February 25, 2010 @ 3:16 pm
Dancer 007, I think it’s because even though many of us married young and ended up happy, we also know of situations where others who married young weren’t so lucky. And in some cases parents want their kids to experience things they never got to.

I know I would be a bit sad if my kids never got to live abroad and experience the world as a single adult. When you go straight into marriage from your parents’ house you are bound to miss out on some really fun/enriching/growth-inspiring times.

I’m inclined to think that ANY marriage is something of a crap shoot. Even if you choose someone who is perfectly suited for you, life happens. People change. I know I am a very different person than I was on the day I got married, and not just because I’m 30 lbs heavier now. Life has changed me. It changes everyone.

Comment by Chelsea — February 25, 2010 @ 3:19 pm
“the same people who are most egalitarian in their attitudes toward gender roles.”

Here I think is the key to this. Working moms who have to come home and do all the housework too are unhappy. Stay at home moms whose husbands don’t come home and help with the kids/housework are unhappy.
The study she mentioned is all about ATTITUDE about it and sharing the load. If my husband thinks all my woman’s work is beneath him, I bet he doesn’t appreciate me and doesn’t help raise the kids and do the housework. That is what leads to unhappy wives and unhappy marriages.
I’m a SAHM but my husband understands that it is work and he is willing to do it too, and he appreciates what I do, and he doesn’t dump it all on me.
The problem has been that women ARE working, but if men aren’t picking up the slack at home then women are pretty unhappy. I read a study saying men were starting to do their share of childcare, but still had a ways to go on the housework.

Comment by jks — February 25, 2010 @ 3:23 pm
For me, it has nothing to do with wanting my kids to experience all the things I had never seen.

I felt like I had seen quite a bit, and never felt like I missed out on anything by marrying when I did.

For me, it has more to do with, in my own situation, I knew I was making a good choice. Will I know that when it’s their turn? I can’t read their brains, or feel what they feel, so it’s scarier to think that they might make a mistake.

Comment by Alliegator — February 25, 2010 @ 3:27 pm
re 106 Depends on your definition of a HUGE fight. DH and I didn’t have one that ended up with me/him yelling and in tears until about 4 years after our marriage. We had disagreements though. I think a good honest essential disagreement is needed in determining if “character assassination” ie. name calling etc is a tactic used by your spouse.

Comment by April — February 25, 2010 @ 3:54 pm
For me, it has more to do with, in my own situation, I knew I was making a good choice. Will I know that when it’s their turn? I can’t read their brains, or feel what they feel, so it’s scarier to think that they might make a mistake.

That was the problem my own parents had. I knew I was making the right decision, but they didn’t feel good about it and therefore assumed that it was the wrong choice. But the reason they didn’t feel good about it was because they didn’t want it to happen. And they didn’t feel good about it until the day before I got married. So, yeah, they were terrified that I was making a terrible mistake. I wasn’t, but I can understand those fears now that I have daughters.

Comment by jen — February 25, 2010 @ 3:57 pm
#139:

Lulubelle, premarital sex -especially co habitation increases liklihood of divorce…

If you want to put out there that marriages in the church aren’t happier in general (with no statistic to be found-just a guess or soemthing)–let’s just for fun assume that’s true…I’ll tell you who wins when marriages stay in tact (baring abuse) CHILDREN! They win. So even IF your guess is true, there is a win there and it’s a rather huge one.

Studies show that kids win when the parents either love each other or are neutral towards each other. When there is high conflict and/or abuse (physical, mental or emotional) towards either spouse or any of the kids in the relationship, kids suffer. Also, last time I looked, my happiness and satisfaction still matter. That said, in my first marriage, there was extreme conflict and abuse. I had to call 911 3 times in a month before filing a restraining order on him, then one day walking out of the house with my daughter and a single suitcase. Yes, divorce (an ugly one at that) and the trauma of a wicked and very expensive custody battle (which I won) was far better than our marriage.

Comment by Lulubelle — February 25, 2010 @ 3:59 pm
Status: Married
Age Married: Just under 21
Time dated before marriage: 4 years
Years married :1

It worries me especially when hasty engagements happen as a rule rather than as the exception. When I lived in CA, I remember hearing here and there about someone’s parents who got engaged after knwing each other a week or whatever, and it always seemed like an incredible story. I would always think, “Wow! God must have really wanted them to be together!”

It shocked me when I moved to Utah and realized that everyone has a story like that. The more people hear about those stories, the more they think it is normal. The scenario for those stories turns from, “Wow, what a miracle!” to “So you see, quick marriages work!” I feel that this is a syndrome that is making the situation worse.

I have a very dear friend, my best friend from high school, who got engaged at 17 after dating this boy (18) for about 6 months. They married a week or two after her 18th birthday. I was horrified because, aside from the obvious issues, both she and her husband had dropped out of high school. Neither had any college. To make matters worse, my friend had certain medical problems that prevented her from engaging in rigorous physical labor. To top it all off, her husband, shortly after they married, started experiencing a hormone deficiency which caused him to gain something like 200 pounds so he couldn’t walk without difficulty and couldn’t do a lot of physical activity without injury. So now they are stuck, living in her inlaws’ garage with no jobs, no money, and a baby.

The worse thing about it for me, besides watching my friend suffer, is that when she first got engaged, it gave many people pause and they confronted her about it? How are you going to support yourselves? Are you going to try to go to college? Where will you live? Will you be prepared if you accidentally get pregnant or have an unforseen emergency?

She would always respond with this serene smile and something to the effect of, “My parents got engaged after knowing each other nine days.” Like it’s normal!

Then of course was the whole assertion that, “I just love him so much. The Spirit is telling me very strongly to marry him. I know it’s right.” I’d ask her how she was going to make a living. She would say, “I know this is right, and God will take care of us.” No plan. Just the assumption that everything would be okay because they were good members of the Church.

Just because you feel good about something doesn’t mean it’s the Spirit. Of course you’re excited and giddy. You’re in love. That doesn’t mean that this is it for you!

I feel that a big part of the reason that she did what she did is because her parents, who she loved and trusted, had done something similar that I would have called a miracle. When everyone knows someone who had a successful marriage on sheer dumb luck, they feel that dumb luck is good enough for them.

I got married young. I knew it would be hard, and I don’t regret it, but I worry about my own children. Will they look at me and think that 20 is always old enough to get married? Will they feel like 20 is the right time and then take the first nice Mormon boy that comes along? Will they get engaged to a man after one month and then insist to my face that they are mature enough to get married because they are the same age I was when I got married?

I shudder to think.

Comment by AllieKay — February 25, 2010 @ 4:05 pm
Going back to the question of why church culture and many of its leaders push for early marriage.

Answer. I don’t know.

I think there is great benefit in _planning_ for marriage early-on. Not necessarily to run and jump on the bandwagon at the first wink, but in order to promote thoughtful consideration to marriage. What type of person do you want to marry? What type of person do you want to become as an adult? What type of married relationship do you want? What do you need to do to progress into that person and that relationship?

There is also great benefit in dating others and building an understanding of your compatibility with persons of the opposite gender. What type of personality are you? What personality attributes best compliment your own? How openly can you communicate with a dating prospect?

I think it’s also very good to, when you’re young, you establish that marriage will be a priority. Partially so that it’s not a huge reconfiguration of your life when you have to make room for another person. Partially so when a right person comes at a right time than it’s not an impossible struggle to reconfigure your plans. (Although, even at 28, I still feel like there is so many exciting plans I’ve had to forsake because of marriage. It’s worth it, but it still stings.) It’s also good to have that as a priority to encourage one to be worthy of that marriage (see also “what type of marriage do you want?”)

And I think that’s where a lot of single adults start to struggle. They have this priority of marriage - it’s something they plan for and want - yet it’s kind of an empty feeling to nod towards the priority without acting on it.

Comment by Janell the Great — February 25, 2010 @ 4:15 pm
Going back to the question of why church culture and many of its leaders push for early marriage.

Answer. I don’t know.

Two reasons: sex and selfishness. Or actually, I shouldn’t imply I was directly told this, but that’s the impression I have. Fornication tends to lead people away from the church — apparently the majority don’t stick around and repent. Also, the perception is that many are putting off marriage and family for selfish reasons, pursuing things with less significance (what compares to having a family?).

I’ve heard several local leaders wonder what’s wrong with all these young men (~24-27) who don’t seem to be eagerly pursuing a mate. “Don’t they have any hormones?” I think they’re very concerned they’re all into porn.

Comment by Martin — February 25, 2010 @ 5:02 pm
My grandparents all married in their 30s. My parents at 25 and 29. Even with all that history I got engaged at 20 and married at 21. My parents never said ONE WORD that wasn’t positive. To this day (17 years) they have never said one negative thing about my husband, ever (and the guy ain’t perfect).
My parents are so totally awesome and taught me so much about marriage and making decisions that I give them so much credit at how I approached my marriage. We even started out with rules about fighting because of things my parents had taught me.
However, my parents have 50% of their children who have never married and perhaps never will (age 37. 41, 43).
Is that strange? Should my parents claim credit for success or failure? Did my parents just do such a good job raising them that they never were willing to settle for a poor relationship.

Comment by jks — February 25, 2010 @ 5:15 pm
Current Marital status: married
Ever Married: yes
Age When Married: 21
courtship: 1 month before engagement and almost 2 months after that to married.
Years married: 8

in regards to what was said in 157 with conversations before marriage. I know that though my husband and I only knew each other a short time before engagement and then between that and marriage we talked about everything under the sun. From # of children to debt and finances to what is fair in a disagreement etc etc I wouldn’t say we ended up together by luck simply because too many things fell into place to put us together and I had always told myself I would know the guy a year at least… ya God had different things in mind.

My sister-in-law on the other hand knew the guy she married for 2 years before engagement (she went on a mission on there so that wasn’t that long) then about 3 months till marriage. She was 23 and he was 25. I don’t think they talked about anything except being “in love”. He had debt he didn’t let her know about until well after they were married, he constantly picked his family over her and their young son on just about everything. It took her actually asking for a divorce before he decided to grow up and put his wife and child first. They still have some problems but somehow they have figured out most of it. Unfortunately now I think that she is taking advantage of him… grrrrr selfishness has no place in a marriage.

I think most marriages are kind of a crap-shoot. There are certain things you can do to protect yourself, sure. Then there are times when you get a VERY STRONG prompting that this is it and the time is now. Sometimes you just have to follow that. I like to think that if my child gets one of these promptings and I pray about it too that I will be at peace with it…. after all, they are within my “stewardship” so to speak.

As far as why the church encourages this… I think that there are a couple of reasons, and both of them are human. 1) these are men that were raised in a different time and have only had experiences with marriage in their generation. and 2) they are probably fearful that the younger generations will give up on family all together… they would probably rather young than not at all.

As for why I hope my kids wait till they are older than I was when they marry? because I think that if they wait a little while between moving out and marriage they will be more likely to have developed self confidence and to have learned to love themselves… which I think is essential before learning how to love someone else in a healthy way.

Comment by April — February 25, 2010 @ 6:11 pm
lulubelle, that’s why I said except abuse…..

as to your own happiness, whne you ahve children sometimes you sacrifice some of that for them….but whatever, read it however you please.

Comment by britt--the brat — February 25, 2010 @ 6:11 pm
re 158 I know I would rather my kids remain single than in abusive relationships. I would claim success, especially if they are happy.

Comment by April — February 25, 2010 @ 6:13 pm
I don’t understand the assumption that if you don’t marry by a certain (young) age, you might just give up on marriage or family. A vast majority of people I gather hope to marry and most of them also hope to have kids. I don’t know of many single/childless 30 year olds who have truly given up on that ideal.

Comment by Lulubelle — February 25, 2010 @ 6:29 pm
One of the wisest things a YW leader taught me (herself on a second marriage after an abusive 1st one) is that there is a difference between EMOTION and the SPIRIT.

One reason why I hate weepy testimonies and overly tear jerky EFY type activities is that they use emotion to make people think they feel the Spirit. Along with teaching our kids to be independent and responsible, I think we need to teach that difference. Goes beyond just hormones running the show and sexual desire running the show–I think our culture has a tendency, especially with teenagers, to try to provoke emotion as a manifestation of spirit. Not that they are unrelated (have cried myself), but they aren’t the same.

And sometimes it takes TIME to sort them out.

I do think dramatic manifestations of “you should marry this person now” happen. My own parents gt married quickly (at 25), and had a very strong burning in the bosom type experience. They also had a severely disabled child as their first, and perhaps God gave them that experience to navigate the conflicts that often come with that. But I think feeling all bubbly and giddy is not the spirit.

Comment by cms — February 25, 2010 @ 6:34 pm
re 162 I know a couple of women who got married past childbearing age and they are VERY happy your right, just because someone hits a certain age, they shouldn’t write of marriage and parenthood (adopted/foster children are a potential too!)

re 163 I TOTALLY AGREE. I personally also get tired of the spirit always being described as a certain feeling. For me, it is literally a “still small voice” in my head… not a burning. But I know it can display itself differently to different people.

Comment by April — February 25, 2010 @ 6:45 pm
I want my daughters (and son) to wait to get married for a couple of reasons. First, having my children young - before I finished school - limited my choices as to where I could go to school and what programs and options were available to me. Second, there are other experiences I have missed out on. And third, because I know that I won the marriage lottery by getting married this young and being happy after 15 years. I’d hate to see them push their luck.

Comment by Eris — February 25, 2010 @ 7:01 pm
I think that the parents example is a good point. My parents got married at 28 (almost 29) and 33, and so even though I think that made my dad paranoid about me getting too old before I married, it certainly made me feel that getting married in my 20’s was more “normal” than my teens. I did marry a couple years younger than my mom, but DH and I had also know each other for 3 years and I’m hoping that this will be positive example for our own kids.

Like others have said, I just feel like there is a lot of life that you can’t really experience after marriage, or not near as easily–you get other things, so it is a trade off, but despite what some of the young marrieds seem to think, getting married and having kids in your late 20’s certainly isn’t old and you haven’t suddenly lost all energy and ability to care for young children, or the ability to be passionately in love with your husband.

Oh, and I love the idea of getting a good arguement out of the way. DH and I had a pretty good idea of how we fought before we got engaged, and also had been through the experience of compromising on some pretty big issues which has helped us realize that we’re not always going to have things turn out exactly how we want them to, but we can find a way to make it work in a satisfactory way for both of us. We don’t have to agree on it all, just be able to talk about it.

Comment by Kim — February 25, 2010 @ 7:16 pm
I agree with April that marriage is basically a crap shoot. I have several good friends from India and Nepal, and we’ve had some interesting discussions about arranged marriages. Basically, most of them are about as happy in their arranged marriages as my Western friends are in their “love matches.” (Funny anecdote: One of my friends came back from getting engaged in India to a girl he’d never met and said, in his sweet accent, “I thought I was going to get a crappy wife, but she’s beautiful!”).

My husband and I, despite our short courtship and being from different cultures, are very happy, and we have never really fought much–I can probably count on one hand the big fights we’ve ever had. Meanwhile, my sister dated her husband for 6 years before they got married, and they really struggled at the beginning. She felt like she didn’t know about so many of his quirks and habits, and they fought all the time. I definitely felt like God wanted me to marry my husband, but really I probably just got lucky that we turned out to be such a good match for each other.

One thing I’m glad we did was wait to have kids. Although I was only 23 when we married, I had been away from home for 6 years, finished college, served a mission, traveled a lot, and was preparing for grad school. There wasn’t anything I wanted to do that I wasn’t able to do because I got married. And when we had our first child after 5 years of marriage, I felt the same way–no regrets. We had so much fun together for those years that it was just the two of us. We traveled all over, took some risks that paid off that we never would have taken if we’d had kids, etc. I think if I’d had a baby at 21 I would have resented it–the loss of independence and being forced to focus so much on someone else. I’m not saying some people aren’t ready for kids that young–but I sure wasn’t.

Comment by Sofia — February 25, 2010 @ 7:46 pm
I should have added that I think if two people are really committed to making the marriage work, that often counts for more than years of courtship or very similar personalities/backgrounds. I do think marriage is hard work and that either being too immature or too independent and set in your own ways can make it difficult. I don’t agree that any two people can be happy together–certain personalities just rub you the wrong way, or you just aren’t physically attracted to someone. But a shared commitment to making the marriage work goes a long way…

Comment by Sofia — February 25, 2010 @ 7:50 pm
Also true that we are very much encouraged to live traditional gender roles,

Yes and no. Yes, the PotF does talk about nurturing vs. providing.

But fervently NO, we are NOT traditional, because the church teaches that we should be equal partners, that men do NOT get to make decisions for the family, that women’s contributions should be respected.

This vital difference in the way LDS do things is so radically different from traditional, in my experience as an investigator in the 1970s. It’s why I joined the church.

Throwing the T-word around doesn’t help in these conversations because apparently what people think of with that word varies. Can’t understand much of what follows, because you lost me with the assumption.

Comment by Naismith — February 25, 2010 @ 9:16 pm
Also true that we are very much encouraged to live traditional gender roles,

Yes and no. Yes, the PotF does talk about nurturing vs. providing.

But fervently NO, we are NOT traditional, because the church teaches that we should be equal partners, that men do NOT get to make decisions for the family, that women’s contributions should be respected.

This vital difference in the way LDS do things is so radically different from traditional, in my experience as an investigator in the 1970s. It’s why I joined the church.

Throwing the T-word around doesn’t help in these conversations because apparently what people think of with that word varies. Can’t understand much of what follows, because you lost me with the assumption.

Comment by Naismith — February 25, 2010 @ 9:16 pm
Sophie you wrote what you believe. I do find that could be offensive or hurtful to those who work.

I respect the service of those who stay home and who help fulfill the service needs that arise during the day.

In my perspective, those of us who work can help at other times. For example I’ve watched the children of others during evenings,etc since I’m not available to help during the day.

I work and have taken time off to do things like go to girls camp. That is why we get leave.
I have altered my rare occasions to travel so that I don’t miss my night to do a weeknight calling I had for 4 years). I think in 4 years I only missed one night. I have driven til the wee hours of the am to return home to be there to teach primary. I leave early to do vt or find a way to help w/a meal (ie drop off on way to work). So I don’t fully agree w/your assumption that SAHM’s “do more for the church.”

I think we all should just try to do the best we can do and not have these assumptions about others.

Comment by can we not all just respect differences — February 25, 2010 @ 11:13 pm
ALL my life I theorized if I should marry a man or a certian age, divorced, widowed, married, what age, education etc and all the questions you have asked, I have asked. I have made most of the mistakes in choosing a woman can do, and it really doesn;t come down to age, or eduacation. It comes down to the two partners being willing to be unselfish, and put the needs of their spouse, their children as a priority. It is a teneous balancing act. People who are easily offended won;t last. Attitude is the key and maturity is often not relative to age. So good luck in your choices, just don’t bite off too much at one time! I look back and realize all the time I spent as a career woman caused my children to not be as secure. All the time I spent trying to find a father for my children was a waste when I should have just concentrted on being a family, a companion can wait. It is nice to share life with someone compatible, but rare after divorce, and a matter of much prayer, I wish I had been less impulsive, more careful, less accepting,more discriminating. I also spent a lot of money providing things and a nice home for them, when really, kids just want you there. Home made bread and Mom is what I remember, but do today’s children? They are neglected for the cell phone, texting and computer chats. I myslef neglected mine for church dances looking for mister right. SHould have left that up to God and waited awhile!

Comment by Destine — February 25, 2010 @ 11:58 pm
“Home made bread and Mom is what I remember, but do today’s children? “All children are different and they will remember things how they WANT to remember them. Some children will hate their Mothers for working and not having homemade bread. Some children will love their mothers who got PHD’s worked and made homemade bread once in a while. (my mom). I think it’s natural for Mothers to look back with regrets. Sometimes I think it’s just children trying to find fault in someone else for how they feel and the choices they have made. But ultimately we raise our children to believe that life happens and how they live it is up to them regardless of their mother father acted. ect Sometimes people EVEN grown women want to blame their mother for this and that forgetting that she is a person. I honestly think it has been a spiritual gift of mine to see my Mother as a person with her own aspirations and not a role made for my fulfillment.

Comment by cz — February 26, 2010 @ 12:23 am
I honestly think it has been a spiritual gift of mine to see my Mother as a person with her own aspirations and not a role made for my fulfillment.

Wow cz, that was an amazing statement. I think you’ve summed up in once sentence what I’ve tried to articulate for years and years. Mothers are human beings. They’re people with their own hurts, dreams, wants, needs, pain, etc. You don’t cease being a person when you give birth.

Comment by Risa — February 26, 2010 @ 1:28 am
Married at 22
Still married
Married for 21 years

Kim, #132, I figured the same thing… that I just wasn’t exposed to many young single Mormons… since as soon as I married, I was pretty much limited to interactions with other married couples.

However, I grew up (a while back) in the mission field where most good mormon kids went away to school in Utah. I did attend the local singles ward for a stretch of time and was sort of horrified by the overwhelming number of women and the almost pathetic level of quality and number of men. I hate to be judgmental, but that is totally how it felt. Seriously, back then when BYU and other Utah schools accepted almost anyone who applied, almost everyone who grew up close to me went away to Utah. The singles ward was comprised of mostly older people… none of which seemed to fit the description of the vibrant and interesting people you encountered in your own ward. I did encounter a couple of singles wards (close to universities) on my mission though that did seem to be a lot like you experienced… amazing members, both women and men. Strangely though, I don’t remember any marriages resulting while I was there.

At any rate, I think things are changing . In the same area where I grew up, less and less kids are leaving. In fact, all of my nieces and nephews that have married ended up meeting their spouses locally and not in Utah. And some of my nieces and nephews haven’t married yet and are over 25… so maybe the tide really is shifting.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 26, 2010 @ 7:25 am
Dancer 007, #145, I married young at 22, well before I probably should have, and I don’t want my kids to marry young either. Oddly enough though, while I consider my marriage to be pretty happy now, I readily admit that I do regret marrying so young. While marrying young and going to college was a lot of fun the first few years, we really didn’t know eachother very well. Had we gotten to know each other better, I imagine that we might have not married… because various issues would have become evident before marriage rather than after. Who knows though, I probably would have married my husband with previous knowledge of the issues we’d face lifelong anyway, but I would have rather had the chance to at least test the relationship before we had committed to each other for eternity.

As it was, I felt trapped at times by my impulsive decision and behavior (of marrying quickly)… and I think I would have rather taken more time to make the decision with full awareness of the issues and problems we might face. When problems or issues arose, I immediately jumped to the thought that I’d married the wrong person. That was a really handy, unhelpful, and immature default position to jump to… but I’ve gone there a lot. Had I had the chance to face a few of those issues in an uncommitted position, I might have committed anyway… but I would have at least been aware and cognizant of what I was signing up for.

Even so, I love my husband and feel like we were meant to be together, but for the sake of having a stronger sense of personal power (and responsibility) in the decision making process, I should have waited to get married. Once married, the decision to marry was done, but I didn’t stop thinking about it as if I were still deciding. It would have been more judicious and wise of me to do that whole “should I marry him” process before the marriage rather than jumping into it and then wondering after the fact.

Still, I don’t fear my kids’ decisions should they ever get engaged. They are really sensible kids, and so far have demonstrated excellent taste and restrait in dating. We talk about it a lot… in part because I don’t want them to have as many regrets as I’ve personally had.

Please tell me if anyone else ever jumped to the “I must have married the wrong person” posititon when dealing with the adjustment to marrige. I hate to confess something completely unique, but I cannot deal with life in any other way but brutal honesty.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 26, 2010 @ 8:22 am
Ahhh…, I wondered that about two years ago when I ran into an ex at the temple. The last time I saw him was the night before he went into the MTC, so it threw me for a loop. I wondered for a few weeks if I had made a mistake. During that time, I read on the internet that most people wonder that at some point during their marriage, so I didn’t feel so wacky. Ultimately I realized that I had made the right choice. And since reading this FW book, I know for sure that I made the right choice! That ex I saw in the temple was not a good fit for me. Neither were any of the rest of my exes.

Comment by Stephanie — February 26, 2010 @ 8:39 am
do all your exes live in texas?

Comment by mfranti — February 26, 2010 @ 9:20 am
c’mon! y’all thought the same cheesy thing…

Comment by mfranti — February 26, 2010 @ 9:22 am
Interestingly enough, about half do. I think I always had a thing for Texans . . .

Comment by Stephanie — February 26, 2010 @ 9:34 am
Ahhh…. Thank you for that reply (and everyone else who answered my question) it’s really interesting to see the thought process of those who got married young. It was always drilled into my head that my education and self sufficiency came before finding a husband, and strangely enough I never thought about doing anything different.

And Ahhh, to answer your question, my first year of marriage was 100x harder than I had ever anticipated. I constantly questioned if I had made the right decision. We had several conversations to that effect early on, once the fun of the wedding and honeymoon was behind us and real life began.

It was the biggest adjustment I’ve ever gone through. And honestly, almost two years later there are still growing pains and issues to work through. However, I have begun to realize that its fairly normal to question things and have a hard first year. I feel like now we’re finally staring to hit our stride and make this thing work.

Comment by Dancer 007 — February 26, 2010 @ 10:00 am
I agree …I think good LDS marriages are actually more equal and teach us all to reach for the best in family relationships- especially in that of husband and wife. I believe gospel teachings sets us apart, and are a break with tradition in so many ways . The first thing I noticed upon attending the church was a very different and wonderful relationship between husbands and wives. For some of you who grew up in the church, there may be many things you take for granted. ( This is not to say every marriage is what it should be- for truly I know this is not so ( mine isn’t!) but we have a standard and a goal that is awesome!)

The atonement of Jesus Christ and individual repentance is central to the improvement and positive changes we make in our marriage relationships, as we mature together. The marriage is bigger than the two of us, and is to be nurtured and fed. Understanding the eternal nature of marriage and the marriage covenant has a huge stabilizing effect when both parties honor their temple marriage. When we honor God as part of that covenant, and invite Him do His part, it is really amazing.

Dancer 125 said :. “In my mind, getting engaged is making a commitment to marry that person. If you don’t know them well enough to be sure if you want to get married, you have no business getting engaged in the first place. Getting engaged shouldn’t be like calling *dibs* on a person.”

I say…I agree, engagement is a commitment, but it is not legally binding and should not be viewed as such. If , during engagement, either party comes to believe they have made a mistake, they should feel free to dis-engage. I suppose that might mean in many broken engagements, at least one person had ‘no business’, as you say, getting engaged, but I withhold that judgment, because anyone outside the relationship do not know the whole picture. It is the business of those involved! I think way too many people get involved in other people’s love business, from matchmaking, to pressuring family or friends to take things to the next level, and then to pressuring them to stay in /or get out of relationships. ( dating, engagements, or marriage! ) Girls tend to like a lot of feedback on their relationships , but I tend to feel that a 3rd party …is a third party and is not privy to things of importance in the relationship. Again, it is so important that I think it is up to the individuals to make decisions, and others not to judge them.

There is much you do not know about each other until you get engaged and become ‘committed’ as a couple, just as there are things you learn about each other in marriage. I would far rather see my own children break an engagement , with that embarrassment and fall out, than a marriage. The wedding planning is important but making sure you are in the process of bringing forth the right marriage is PART of what the engagement period is about, in my opinion. You discuss many things during engagement that you do not in dating. You are finding out many more things, and also seeing that person in new ways, getting more involved with each other’s families, ect. Just the process of wedding planning can often unmask things in a relationship, that are red flags for marriage.

Anyway. It is just my opinion. I agree with you that probably many engagements are a mistake to start with.

Hmmm, maybe sometimes engagement IS like calling dibs?! Why ISN’T it? ( definition: to claim rights )

Comment by Melissa P. — February 26, 2010 @ 10:05 am
Ahhh- yes, I’ve thought that too.
With 20/20 hindsight (which is sometimes aggravating beyond endurance), I realized I married my first husband while I was still deeply grieving my fiance, who had been killed. One of the worst things I’ve had to deal with related to that was the fantasy life I created over the marriage I didn’t have with that fiance. Brutal. Because I’d known him all my life- we were best friends, there were an awful lot of things I knew about him that normally would have unfolded over the years of a marriage…but to think that everything would have been perfect or he never would have done this or that…just plain fantasy and it truly did not help things when there were issues in my first marriage. I have to acknowledge that. I was just shy of 21 when I married and I had recently undergone 3 consecutive surgeries for cancer. My childhood required growing up fast, I was very mature for my age, but that does not mean I was always wise…that’s what age, experience and mistakes do for us. In response to that unhappy childhood, I was also eager to try my hand at establishing a healthy and happy homelife…trying to eradicate my earlier experiences in some way or as some kind of victory after a battle. I very foolishly thought that since my choice for a husband so markedly didn’t resemble Paul in any way- personality or otherwise, that I was making an unbiased decision. But also…really, I wasn’t sure if the cancer would recur, thought I’d never have children and I pushed myself through a lot of decisions in reaction to that. I was so impressed that this man wanted me when he was informed I was incapable of having his children. (That’s where people’s hidden agendas come into play. He deliberately allowed me to believe he was making a loving sacrifice when he didn’t want children anyway. So, imagine the difficulties when I was pregnant two months after we married and how I felt finding out the truth.) Why didn’t it occur to me that if I was so very happy with Paul- I should have been looking for similar characteristics in my next choice?
Because grief messed me up and interacting with anyone who reminded me of Paul felt disloyal.

Yes. Many a time I wondered if I’d made a mistake- especially when I dealt with his rages, financial dishonesty and his adultery. I looked my decisions in the face and poured all of my efforts into making it work despite the shaky ground my decisions had been based upon. But it takes two. I think he was even more disappointed than I was, although, he has since told me that he assumes the responsibility for the marriage ending because he didn’t cooperate with therapy and was unfaithful. He also told our children the same thing. I do believe that barring gross misconduct, two people usually can work things out through compromise. I did love him and there were plenty of traits I did admire in him…after all, I don’t kid myself that I’m perfect either.

The hardest thing was deciding to remarry- boy, did I distrust myself. I left plenty of space between my divorce and subsequent foray into the dating world and did not proceed without the help of a therapist. Still, I do think it’s human nature to doubt our decisions when we’re in the suds. It’s natural to wonder if we were mistaken when disharmony erupts.

Comment by Kimberly — February 26, 2010 @ 10:25 am
8.I think that it’s not just sexual expectation that makes young LDS kids jump into marriage, even though I do think think it’s a determining factor. I think the problem is more culturally based.

Most of the advice I have heard from Church leaders, and definetly all the the advice from my parents, was that marriage was a sacred thing and therefore a HUGE decision. “Putting one’se house in order,” according to my dad, extended to the decision when, where, how, and why to get married. I didn’t get married until I had graduated from university and am able to work so my husband can focus on his degree. I plan on working even after we have kids (which won’t happen - God willing - until he’s done with school and working as well, three years down the road).

I think cultural pressure comes to bear. We are a progressive faith, the next step is important to us (birth, baptism, education/mission, marriage, family, endure to the end, death, resurrention…) there’s always the next thing we’re supposed to accomplish and we’re in a hurry to get it done. I think this desire to check things off the list is a contributing factor towards young, early, and quick marriages/ child-birth, but I’m not sure what the solution is when these marriages and families prove less stable, except maybe more education about the consequences of rushing eternal decisions. But I don’t know how effective it would be against cultural mores.

**I’m restating because I’m truly curious to see what other people think.

Comment by C. — February 26, 2010 @ 11:05 am
re 185 I think that you have a good point. I think that often our focus on “whats next” gets us into trouble. Even after marriage there is too much focus on “accomplishments” ie who not only goes through the ordinances but who also does all the “little things” like all the the troublesome stereotypes that I have issues with. I get really tired of people thinking that life is a race to get everything done, and that simply by looking at anothers accomplishments (baptism, endowments, marriage) we can somehow see how “righteous” they are.

Comment by April — February 26, 2010 @ 12:06 pm
To some extent, I think the “what’s next” is kind of universal, the timeline is maybe accelerated in LDS culture.

Comment by Kimberly — February 26, 2010 @ 12:31 pm
185, I agree, and I think you may be right that our focus on progress might cause us to be a bit hasty at times. Once I got married I thought I had arrived….but nope, then the question was “When are you having kids?” When we finally had our first child I thought the pressure would be gone, but a couple of years later it was…”When are you having another one?”

I would think the importance of marriage in our doctrine would translate to being more careful and less hasty in making the decision in the first place. If this is *forever* we’re talking about, it’s all the more important to get it right. A lot of churches require premarital counseling, I would love to see this offered to couples who get married in the temple. I know it would have helped my DH and I a lot during our engagement. We fought so much while engaged that we didn’t have a single fight during our whole first year of marriage.

Comment by Chelsea — February 26, 2010 @ 12:36 pm
#176–Ahhh. . . I agree that wards near big universities tend to have a lot better choices I went to two wards in CA, LA and SF area, where there were more commuter colleges and everyone still lived at home and no, there weren’t a lot of older members of those wards that didn’t have issues. I still felt a little old being 22 and having my own apartment and a real job.

It wasn’t until I moved to SD where I found THE ward for me, which was near UCSD, so a pretty intense school with a lot of graduate programs, so of course it attracted older people to the ward, and maybe ones who just had such serious schooling goals that dating all the time hadn’t been their focus, so they hadn’t married as young.

I guess my point is for everyone who married young and can’t see the other side, there really are options. I know of a couple older, awesome singles wards in SLC and the couple in SD that I loved, and I’m sure near other bigger schools, there would be some of the same. So don’t be too worried about your kids–and remember, it only takes one is a good match. Which, thank goodness, isn’t the same for everyone.

Comment by Kim — February 26, 2010 @ 12:46 pm
“it only takes one good match”

That’s what I get for trying to type while my kids are yelling.

Comment by Kim — February 26, 2010 @ 12:47 pm
My mom’s advice to me was to wait to get married until after I had my Master’s Degree. It was good advice. I didn’t necessarily do exactly that, but it was definitely part of my plan: get BS, go on mission, get Master’s, work for a couple of years. That was the plan. Getting sidetracked from that plan was not a bad thing. I’m giving my kids the same advice and hoping they’ll develop a good plan. Then, wherever life takes them will be their choice, but I won’t be as worried if they have a good plan that includes a lot of education.

I have two former YW who are engaged right now. One graduated from high school in 2008 and has worked at Walmart and recently moved into her own apartment with roommates. She is apparently engaged to someone from our stake who just got off his mission and is now in another state until they get married. Then they will both be in that state. The other one graduated from high school in 2009 and met her fiance at college orientation. When she was home at Christmas, I asked her about him, and she said, “He’s a little controlling, but I can handle it”. I tried to gently encourage her to wait or cool things down. Controlling is a big sign to turn and run. I am scared for both these girls. I am not sure if anyone can talk them out of it. The first has a mom who has been pushing her to get married and have babies pretty much since she graduated. The second comes from a nice family but has been coddled and pretty much will be moving from daddy’s care to hubby’s care. Honestly, I don’t think that either of them are mature enough to be getting married right now.

Some YW president I was!

Comment by Stephanie — February 26, 2010 @ 2:32 pm
“he’s a little controlling but I can handle it”….oh yikes

Comment by britt--the brat — February 26, 2010 @ 2:44 pm
I know I shouldn’t judge, but…well, here it goes.

Engagement shouldn’t be like calling dibs! If you’re close enough to one another to think it’s time to get engaged, shouldn’t you be in a committed relationship already?

I don’t like this phenomenon of jumping to engagement when you decide it’s time to be exclusive. That’s what going steady is for.

I’ve known lots of people who have been engaged and broken it off because they found out they had nothing in common. You should have fingured that out when you were steady dating, not when you were engaged. Why rush it? Are you afraid of not having any other prospects if this one doesn’t follow through.

Comment by AllieKay — February 26, 2010 @ 2:53 pm
Allie Kay-that’s how I considered engagement-almost the jewish promise sort of way

Comment by britt--the brat — February 26, 2010 @ 3:32 pm
Allie K…I agree…longer real friendship, longer going steady or exclusive dating…and then FINALLY getting engaged when you are SURE. You are RIGHT! However, I also still agree with myself…better to break an engagement if you become UNsure with new information/feeling/understanding about yourself or your fiance during the engagement, even though it is painful and uncomfortable, than to marry, and decide THAT was the mistake. My opinion. I don’t think people should rush into one of the biggest personal decisions of their lives! ( But …it happens! )

Comment by Melissa P. — February 26, 2010 @ 4:08 pm
I think the more important questions to be asking about getting married are not “when” and “how old”, but “why”?

If you get married because everyone expects you to do so, I think you are begging for trouble.

If you get married for some abstract, nebulous “spiritual” reason (providing spirit bodies or because God “commanded” it), that can be a problem, too.

I think a couple should get married when doing so will help them both (with emphasis on the female part of that “both” because of the seemingly automatic secondary priority women’s goals and dreams take to mens in our society) accomplish some meaningful and mutual life goals together - e.g., building and raising a family in a particular way, or achieving a lifestyle and quality of life in which both find fulfilment. This includes education, career, recreation, etc.

Perhaps the reason marriages of couples who are educated, or a bit older, have a better success rate is because such people are more likely to know who they are and what they want out of life.

Just my 2 cents. I am married for over 20 years now. My wife texted me the other day: “I feel like we are newlyweds”. We really do!

Comment by Daniel — February 26, 2010 @ 6:02 pm
Perhaps the reason marriages of couples who are educated, or a bit older, have a better success rate is because such people are more likely to know who they are and what they want out of life.

I think its true. And especially for the woman, who if she has gotten some education, had a job, done somethings just for herself, she’s probably more confident in herself and in asking for what she wants/needs and looking for the right guy who can work with her to make sure that her life is still fulfilling, even if they tend toward more traditional roles. I think so many people get thrown into a marriage that turns out to be more traditional or more stifling or controlling than maybe what they would like, because they didn’t have long enough to really picture it and search for it. Even if you know what you want, if you don’t take the time to REALLY get to know your spouse, you may not get what you thought you would.

Comment by Kim — February 26, 2010 @ 6:17 pm
191, 192.

I work in a police station (at BYU no less). Trust me, every man that has come through our doors in handcuffs for domestic, child, sexual, emotional, or physical abuse has been a control freak. I’ve seen women who don’t even answer basic questions for themselves anymore, they’re husbands too. One man took out a restraining order against a couple of his wife’s friends because they had questioned the wife about her husband’s behavior towards her and their children.

RUN. Don’t walk. Get out. Now.

Comment by C. — February 26, 2010 @ 7:12 pm
Thank you Stephanie, #178, for making me not feel so alone in second guessing my decision. I guess it is normal to do, especially during tough times… or after you run into an ex!

Dancer 007, #182, thanks so much for asking such a good question… and for responding to my answer. Four years ago, I taught a RS Lesson on marriage and apparently scared a couple of 18 yr old young single girls away from the thought of marriage by saying that the first year of marriage was an incredibly difficult year of adjusting as we merged two lives into one. I know I didn’t make it sound that bad, but both girls complained to their mothers, saying that I made marriage sound hard! I wonder if either of them has married yet and thinks I didn’t make it sound hard enough.

It is an adjustment… of course, some of the adjusting is to positive things… like company to eat dinner with every night or having someone to build family traditions with or having someone you love to build a lifetime of memories with. Now I’d say (after 21 years) that I’m fully adjusted… and am grateful that life together is comfortable and pretty smooth flowing. It didn’t take 21 years to get here… it really was a challenge in the very beginning mostly. I’m glad you guys are on a good course for a bright future.

Kimberly, #184, thanks for sharing your story. I am grateful for your life experience and willingness to share it. 20/20 hindsight does bring such clarity, doesn’t it? I thought I’d taken my life and decision making process seriously… in fact, I carefully picked the best guy possible… and I knew him for over 3 years… more than two of which were years we were “in love” but not together. We both served mission with some overlap… and I counted that time in my head as quality time in which our relationship was flourishing. I returned home from my mission and a few weeks later, we were engaged… and then married several months later. In my wise young mind, I thought I was taking it so slow and knew him so well… but if you’re not together, I think you should never count that as time under your courtship belts. We needed time together to really get to know each other and test our relationship. For the most part, we had built a future together almost solely on a year of friendship, a few months of dating before missions… and then on a stack of letters and tapes sent to each other while serving missions. Maybe it was wise to marry … shoot, I made our foundation sound pretty grounded in comparison to some whirlwind courtships. But getting to really know someone is difficult on paper. People can create anything they want you to believe depending on what they write. Had we been together, we would have had to learn to interact… something that is important in how well a relationship functions. Who knows, maybe now with Skype a new generation will still be able to interact while being separated.

Kim, #189, you’ve done a lot to boost my confidence. It is good to know that great options will exist for my kids when they begin the hunt one day…. big sigh…

Comment by Ahhh... — February 26, 2010 @ 7:21 pm
I, non-religious feminist, perceive marriage as irrelevant.

In my eyes, it’s an archaic relic from man made (man as in male, not as in humankind) socio-economic arrangments when a woman and her reproductive potential were viewed as a man’s personal property. As well as an attempt to placate male anxieties about paternity.

There are too many lingering traces of patriarchy attached to marriage for my liking. To me, it would taint what I treasure most. I want no part of it (unless I have to for immigration purposes!).

Cheery, eh?

Comment by barmy stoat — February 26, 2010 @ 7:41 pm
Not having been raised in an LDS community, I always was an “exclusive” dater in that I only dated one person at a time. Frankly I found that to be comfortable for me. But I have noticed that many of my LDS friends date multiple people up until the day that they announce they are engaged (and sometimes even after). Why is that?

Comment by StillConfused — February 26, 2010 @ 7:52 pm
StillConfused–I’m confused by that, too. Always seems wierd. I’ve actually had friends who were still kissing other girls the week before their wedding. Messed up? Yes. Although that guy is still married.

I was an exclusive dater, if I dated. Didn’t make sense otherwise.

Comment by Kim — February 26, 2010 @ 9:33 pm
This is honestly the first time I have ever commented without reading all of the comments. But I got so behind on fMh this week because of an exceptionally busy work week with much longer hours than usual and I read EVERY last comment on the Blaming the Victim post. So, I hope my comment won’t be a repeat of what someone else already said but I can’t read anymore comments before I fall asleep and this post resonated with me.

I have concerns with very young people getting married when I reflect on the progression of my life. While my personality is. by and large, the same as it was in my late teens and early 20s, I changed DRASTICALLY in many ways during my 20s. We all change continually over the course of our lives but, generally, I see people really coming into themselves and learning about the world in an independent way, in their 20s.

My religious views, my political stance, my outlook on life made huge, material changes in my 20s. And I see this happen a lot. If 2 people are married on the premise that they are united on issues of this magnitude and gravity and then their relative positions in these areas both change, it would be challenging to stay together and get along.

As a 20 year old, I was self-focused and terribly naive (so maybe my perspective is skewed). When I got into the real world, worked full time, went to college, got married and had babies, I had a wealth of experiences which GREATLY changed much of my thinking and many of my long held beliefs and opinions.

In my 30s I was much less selfish and judgmental, more patient, compassionate, tolerant, confident. I understood much better how to meet others’ needs.

In my first marriage, I was a mediocre wife, at best. In my current marriage, I do pretty darn good, if I must say so myself. My husband and I are genuinely best friends. We’re uniquely close and we aren’t saddled with any issues that threaten the foundation of a marriage. But I don’t attribute it to anything special or unique about me. I attribute it to wisdom, maturity and experience - all of which are rare in young people. And perhaps I was more naive and immature than most, so this could be flawed thinking. However, I do think that the more mature we are as, the more prepared we are for handling the pressures of the adult world, including marriage.

One last thought - it really bugs me when people equate longevity of marriage with successful marriage. I’ve known some people who have been married a long, long time. And they are either downright miserable or they lead completely separate lives from their spouse.

Comment by Lawyer Lady — February 26, 2010 @ 11:52 pm
I’ve met Lawyer Lady and her husband. They do truly have a good thing going.

Comment by Stephanie — February 27, 2010 @ 12:31 am
Lawyer Lady #203: Your comment closely parallels my own experiences. And your last paragraph, I couldn’t agree more. A Golden Anniversary (or even Silver) does not necessarily mean the marriage was a success. Occasionally it is just the opposite.

Comment by Numi — February 27, 2010 @ 12:49 am
I thought I would mix up the perspective a little bit here.

I’m 19 and engaged. I don’t live in Utah (and never have, and hopefully never will..) and I attend a non-Church university. I’ve been an active church member my entire life.

I am absolutely crazy about my fiancee. I want to spend all my time with him and can’t imagine being with anyone else. We dated for four months before we got engaged and have five until we’re married. For those of you saying you wished you hadn’t been so young, can you really help when you meet the person you want to be with? Can you remember being so crazy about someone? Of course I’m incredibly physically attracted to my fiancee, but how could I not be? And I know that there is so much more than that that is doesn’t bother me.

I never, ever, ever thought I would be engaged so young. I can be a bit more aggressive that a lot of the Molly Mormons out there and have never made a habit of hiding that I’m fairly or a tad on the liberal side. I always assumed no good Mormon boy would want someone who wasn’t a domestic goddess in training. I’m in school to be a teacher sometimes and it actually annoys me that so many other girls have an education major because I want to teach because I adore literature, not because it’s a good job for mothers. Makes me want to go to law school..sigh…

But I digress, the point of this is that I can’t help that this happened to me now and I know it’s right. It’s not like I planned on being the perfect, married-at-18, SAHM that everyone else in YW did. I wasn’t totally kidding about law school, I wanted to be the glamorous, single career woman for a long time. If I can make my marriage work at 20, then why not?

I honestly believe that every relationship is different. How can we make absolute judgments when even our definitions of maturity differ?

Comment by Lola — February 27, 2010 @ 1:06 am
Lola,

I very carefully worded my comment. I, too, believe that every relationship is different. And every individual is different in their rate of development and maturity. You may be eons ahead of where I was when I was 19. But please consider that you may NOT be, but you may think you are, as I did.

Lola, when I was 19 (and engaged), I was, what I thought, very spiritually mature and proactive. God was on my side, by golly, and if I married a man worthily (i.e. no sex or other sexual play before marriage and other temple recommend requirements), how could i go wrong?

I’m probably not technically qualified to address these issues on this site because I am no longer Mormon. But, I was, during that time, and I was just so darn devout and I am a very ethical, moral person and this is what I think (maybe it is too subjective to be significant to anyone reading):

But we just don’t see things, at age 19, the same as we do when we are 35. The problem is our simple naivtey (sp? - too tired to check) can cause us to make decisions that we wouldn’t if we just had some real life experience. There is no substitute for that. Wisdom and experience can’t be learned in a class and there is nothing that can take its place.

I am not a better spouse now because I live a different lifestyle. My lifestyle is mostly the same as when I was an active Mormon. What has changed between my marriages is my experience, my wisdom and my ability, through maturity, to see others’ needs and not just my own.

While the rate of maturirty may vary amongst individuals, generally speaking, we are much different creatures at age 19 than we are in our early 30s.

You, Lola, may be the exception. But it wouldn’t hurt to consider that the view from a 19 yr old girl’s perspective might be very different from the view of a 35 yr old with college, job, marriage, kids, mortgage, college debt, abuse, betrayal, etc. Life’s challenges and experiences can really, really change us. In ways that effect who we are, fundamentally, and, therfore, change our marriage.

Comment by Lawyer Lady — February 27, 2010 @ 1:54 am
I appreciate your insight and your sensitivity, Lawyer Lady, and I assure you I’ve definitely seen the uglier sides of my parents’ marriage, and it was falling apart for a while. I know that I don’t know everything, and that I won’t for a long time. I think young and inexperienced are both good adjectives to describe me right now, but I don’t think I’m particularly naive.

My question is: what do you suggest we do?

Should we just wait to date until we’re all 23? Should we all be engaged for five years to assure maturity? Should marriage classes be required so we know what we’re getting into? (although considering the Mormon population, that may make things worse…) Should you ignore when you fall in love with someone? What about all of the people who married young who made it happen?

Comment by Lola — February 27, 2010 @ 2:06 am
Lola, #208, I was 22 when I married… and deep down, I knew it was too soon. But I was driven to marry, partly out of fear that I’d pass up a great guy and be alone (forever in my thinking), but also because of the indoctrination that Mormon kids face… that they shouldn’t put marriage off for anything.

While my husband and I were engaged, we had a few serious conversations about how we’d make things work… and I think we both knew it wasn’t the right time… or that maybe we weren’t right for each other… but we would always return to what we’d been told… that we shouldn’t put marriage off for any reason, no matter how valid… or that any two people can successfully marry if they both live the gospel.

So, we threw caution to the wind when those feelings of caution were probably God given, meant to protect and prepare us. We let the reasoning of the combination of hundreds of talks and firesides about the importance of marriage substitute our own reasoning… but in my 22 year old mind, I would have never believed I was doing that.

It wasn’t until I was about 26 that I began to be able to look back and make sense of what happened. Who knows, maybe it was because our brains aren’t fully developed until age 25. At 22, I just had no fear, or no maturity to give that fear a voice. 21 years later, we are still married and “made it work,” but with a lot of unnecessary stress and heartache… not exactly what I thought would be the case… in my 22 year old mind.

Had I had my wits about me and acted on the inspiration I received but refused to acknowledge as inspiration, I would have given the feelings of caution that we both had the respect they deserved. I wouldn’t have ignored them and pretended that we fell under the blanket statements encouraging marriage above all else. I ignored feelings of caution thinking that if I could just ignore them long enough, we wouldn’t have any of the problems those feelings might have been warning me about.

If you have no inklings of caution or feelings you feel like you might be sweeping under a rug to maintain the happiness of engagement, then perhaps you have no cause to do anything different. My advice would be to take any thoughts or impressions you have seriously, because it might be the Holy Ghost warning you to proceed with caution.

In our case, we married anyway and faced a whole host of issues mostly because we were both immature and weren’t ready for marriage. You might well be, and perhaps your guy is utterly fantastic… so ignore everything I say if it would never apply to you. But, make sure you are following any promptings of the Spirit and be willing to question your relationship if you ever feel the need. Acting on those feelings doesn’t mean you have to break up… but conversations addressing them honestly could impact your relationship for the better. Good luck to you, Lola.

Comment by Ahhh... — February 27, 2010 @ 7:10 am
You know, we have a lot of very smart and wise people on this site. I really enjoy all of you.

Comment by Kimberly — February 27, 2010 @ 8:32 am
Lawyer Lady hit the nail on the head. I didn’t get married till I was 31. I didn’t really start feeling like there was something wrong with me until I was about 28. I was engaged at 17. I remember telling my mother that we were going to wait a year. I still had to finish high school. She said, “A lot can happen in a year.” And, a lot did.

I was just so young and shy. We didn’t have much to talk about because I couldn’t think of anything to say. During that time I saw a television drama about a girl who wanted to marry a drifter at 18, her parents discouraged her. At 17 when I first saw it I was completely sympathetic to the girl. When I saw it again a few years later I was surprised to fined I was completely sympathetic with the parents.

With that said, my older sister married at 19. She had ten children and as far as I can see she has had a good life and is still in love with her husband. I have never heard her say she wished she had waited.

Comment by Claudia — February 27, 2010 @ 5:57 pm
Lola:

I was married at 18, come to think of it. Had a baby at 19. It is a bad idea…..no matter how much you think you are in love, no matter how much the church tells you to get married. Finish school, get a career……If it is worth having, it will wait.

I didn’t have the life skills or experience to evaluate my partner, so despite thinking we were madly in love, I was divorced less than 2 years later, having almost been killed and lost my baby daughter. The man was crazy. Sweet, charming, and crazy. Also lethal…..

I changed so much in the next few years, and it took me until my 40’s when the kids were grown to actually catch my breath and figure out what I wanted to do. The kids were the pearls in all of this—the rest was a disaster with fireworks.

You need to negotiate from a position of strength. That means an education, a career, some way to support yourself and your family when things go south…..maybe you do indeed have the perfect love, but injury, illness and death happen….can you see yourself supporting your spouse? What about through a mental illness? Traumatic brain injury, with its concomitant mental effects? Cancer, accidents, and plain damfoolishness strike everyone—in the medical field, I’ve seen it all—and you may yet have to be the breadwinner. Can you do it? With little kids in tow?

Comment by fuzzy — February 27, 2010 @ 8:46 pm
I think it’s a wise idea to pray not just about WHO you are to marry but WHEN. You may be scared to pray for when because you love each other and REALLY want it to be right now…be willing to act on a “wait” answer if that’s what you feel. Just that willingness alone is a sign of maturity.

consider in a rational manner how you are going to afford marriage, what your goals and dreams are and how that is practically going to work…work out a budget and figure out what you can afford and what you can save.

Figure how educaiton is going to practically come in to play…how much schooling does fiancee have left, how much do you have left…what is the potential cost…. what are possible careers that could result? what possible practical skills do you have or could you develop to fall back on?

consider family and in laws-what are the pros and cons of each-how will each function and what affect will this have on your relationship and potential chidlren… how will you and fiance deal with in law conflict? how will you decide where to be for holidays?

consider premarital counseling to work through practical issues such as these as well as the problems you have seen in your parents marriages-when you are under stress you are VERY likely to resort to what you have seen and are familiar with instead of what you know is right.

It may be that 19 is when you get married. If you both go in knowing you will change and knowing there will be a lot of obstacles, it will help.

I married at 23-somewhat young-I had graduated from college and served a mission. I knew it was time to marry this particular guy…You have no idea how many times I have thought back to those moments of revelation that I wrote about in my journal…knowing god wants you where, when and with who…it all helps in how you deal with things.

Comment by britt--the brat — February 27, 2010 @ 9:07 pm
l love how everyone assumes I’m going to drop out of school and start making babies as soon as I get married. I wouldn’t post here if I didn’t consider myself a feminist.

Comment by Lola — February 27, 2010 @ 11:17 pm
Lola,
Your life right now sounds (at least in a short summary) almost exactly like my own history. For all that I was a pretty mature for an 18yo, and even though I took the gospel very seriously, even though I’d heard all the advice to marry young, I still never ever saw myself getting married young, until I met Mr. Wonderful.

And I did get married young, and I’m still married to Mr. Wonderful seventeen years later, and we have a really good marriage. Sounds like a happy ending, right?

In some ways it’s impossible and perhaps fruitless to do what-ifs, but I’m never sure if I could go back if I would have done it the same way. I was mature in some ways, but in others I was totally clueless, and because of that I really made dh miserable for a lot of years, and I didn’t even know I was doing it, because he too was immature and didn’t communicate his needs to me. We loved each other and we meant well, but we didn’t understand each other much at all,

Add to that that I became an entirely different person between the ages of 18 and 25, entirely different person. Eighteen year old me would not have recognized nor understood twenty-five year old me at all. Spiritually, politically, philosophically, socially, emotionally, an entirely different person.

I meant well, I tried, I loved and admired him, but I was in such upheaval, because that is what those years are for, to find out who you are, and that’s hard enough, doing it while expecting someone else to adapt to seismic upheaval, that’s just nuts.

I consider it no small miracle that dh could survive me, continue to love me, still be committed to me. Probably part of that is because dh is a pure saint (which problematically makes me entirely unworthy of him). Add to that he was going through his own growing up process . . .

which sometimes frustrated the holy heck out of me . . .

I guess the things that ultimately saved us, willingness to communicate (eventually after lots of pain and horror), to take responsibility for mistakes (to listen to and accept some ugly things about yourself and try to change them), to give up a lot for each other including things you really really really really really want, constant adaption including totally revising what you thought your life would look/feel/be like (some people call this settling)(hopefully life makes it worth it in some other way), and also really good sex and lots of it. That helped.

So what should you do? Impossible for me to say. But if you are inclined to listen to my opinion, I’d recommend a long, long, long engagement, see how you weather the (to some degree inevitable) upheaval of youth together before the stakes are so high that you end up paying a dear dear price.

Comment by fMhLisa — February 27, 2010 @ 11:57 pm
I’m a little late with commenting, but could you PLEASE provide a link to the study??? I think people are far too willing to listen to some study on the news and then form a bunch of opinions based on that, without a glance at how the study was performed or what assumptions the authors started out with. Including me. But still.

As far as Mormons getting married so early goes, I have no idea. I waited until I was 24, but lots of people I know didn’t and are happy. But holy crap, if I got married when I was 20 I would be so screwed right now. And divorced.

Really, I’d be interested in more studies about Mormons particularly. Are those in the active Mormon community who get married after 25 in happier marriages? If there is a big difference between Mormons and those of other faiths (or none at all), why? It’d be interesting to see.

Comment by Dorothy — February 28, 2010 @ 1:11 am
Lola, I haven’t seen anyone on here accuse you of the things you describe in #214. I see a lot of very caring women, with MORE experience in this matter than you, offering you their stories and their wisdom. It would seem, in #214, that you are not ready to hear it….

Comment by Amanda — February 28, 2010 @ 10:33 am
Of course I don’t want to hear it, thank you Amanda, for pointing out the obvious, but what nineteen year old girl would? I didn’t post here because I wanted advice, I posted here because it seems that no one remembers how they feel when they were nineteen and what I got was a bunch of women telling me the thing I want most in the world is a bad idea. In what world would that make me, or any other girl my age happy?

I’m not getting married because I feel pressure from the church, or I want babies, or I’m afraid no one else will want me, I’m getting married because I love someone else and I want to be with him. I have two years until I graduate from college and my fiancee and I have both watched our parent’s marriages fall apart and are determined to make it work. The reason I tell you all this is because I’m not you. My experiences are different, my personality is different, the way I see the world is different.

Could anyone have changed your mind when you were 19?

There will always be girls that get married young, in and out of the church. Encouraging marriage after 25 won’t change anything and it’s not like you can really schedule the day when you meet that person.

Comment by Lola — February 28, 2010 @ 1:37 pm
Lola, you’re right. No one could have changed my mind. Or my daughters minds (see #142). Some of us are older and have the luxury of looking back and wishing. That doesn’t make us right. Or wrong.

Status:
Married at 17 3/4, became a mother at 13 months later.
Unexpectedly divorced at 29. No education or means to support two daughters. Finished college while single.
Married at 37, still happily married after 18 years.

I have NO regrets about having my daughters early. They are two of my best friends. My life took a different path but eventually lead to right where I want to be. It was hard getting there. My second marriage has certainly been more successful but I believe that is due to many factors including maturity, education, financial security, an empty nest and determination to make it work. Oh, and we knew after two dates that marriage was in our future. Circumstances made us wait for seven months.

Do what feels right. I wish you happiness!

(My only regret is not being a full-fledged hippie in the 70’s, a fact that is hammered home twice a year when I visit Berkeley.)

Comment by Numi — February 28, 2010 @ 2:18 pm
I think, Lola, the very way you are responding in #218 is actually somewhat reinforcing what we are saying here. You’re getting defensive when you have concerned women reaching out and trying to just help. This is the very type of response that won’t be helpful in a marriage where things can get frustrating.

And I am not saying there is anything wrong with you, at all. I am a big proponent of people being allowed to act their age without being criticized. This why I overlook certain behaviors of my nine year old that I don’t of my 15 year old. But this is also why I feel that getting married this young can be, and usually is, problematic. Unless an individual is more mature than the average 19-24 year old, things like defensiveness, inability to listen and evaluate, self-centeredness, selfishness, impatience, short-sitedness, etc. (things that are normal during that age range to some degree) just aren’t the best ingredients for a genuinely happy and successful marriage. And trust me, these are the very things about me at age 19 that made my first marriage so hard. My husband was also this way and we just couldn’t meet each other’s needs because we we so busy feeling frustrated as to why our own needs weren’t being met.

But, you’re right. You are probably going to do what you want no matter what is said and no matter what the source of the advice. But, maybe you could, just maybe, give some thought to the things being said here.

Either way, I wish you well, Lola, and I hope that you are the exception to the rule.

Comment by Lawyer Lady — February 28, 2010 @ 2:42 pm
While I think age is important, I think what is perhaps more important is how well the two people in a relationship know each other and themselves.

Lola, I got married when I was 20, pretty much the same age as you (right after my sophomore year in college). It’s very possible that I was too young, though so far, it has worked out well (coming up on 3 years!). However, the thing that was MOST necessary before we could tie the knot was time.

We dated for 2 years before getting married, which is like a marathon in young Mormon world. In the first 6 months of our relationship, we were madly in love, had pretty much the same opinion about everything, thought about each other every waking moment, and wanted to be together for the rest of our lives. That was puppy love. I vividly remember the first fight we had, about 6 1/2 months in.

The DH I know today is a totally different person than the one I couldn’t keep my hands off when I was 18 1/2. (Though I still can’t control my hands, lol.) In our two years of dating (which is still a relatively short time, in non-church world), we came to know each other in completely different ways. It wasn’t always 100% clear that we were going to end up married. But, after the test of time, after getting to know the ugly and the beautiful, the fun and the hard, we still wanted to be with each other (even though we were both different people than we originally thought). And honestly, it probably wouldn’t have been a bad idea to wait another year or two, though I have no regrets at all about marrying when we did.

I have a little sister now who is 18. If she met someone a year from now, and was engaged 4 months later, I would say this to her:

“That’s great! I’m glad you’re so in love. But, if it is meant to be, it will still be meant to be in another 8 months. I want you to get married to him, but why does it have to be right now?”

The first few months of a relationship are always so wonderful and perfect and romantic! (I wanted to marry the guy I dated when I was 16 for the same reason!) I don’t think any major decision should be made under the influence of those terribly powerful hormones…..

As an aside, I think the Law of Chastity is really the single biggest factor behind LDS quickie marriages. But really, folks, it can be done!!!

Comment by Hammie — February 28, 2010 @ 3:16 pm
One of the upsides of being married young is that you grow up together. Sure it’s hard to be broke and struggling, but it’s been my experience that young couples are usually just very happy to be together.

When you’re older and “know yourself better,” you can be more set in your ways. The crop of available men gets smaller and smaller, and less and less desireable. Ever been to a single adult dance for the over 30 crowd? Ten guys for every 100 women, maybe two of whom are gainfully employed and under 55. And while the available men seem less and less appealing, you become pickier and pickier.

I met my husband when I was 36 and I was lucky to do so. Thank heaven he was an introvert who hated dances, or somebody else would have snagged him years before.

What I think is more important than the age of the people who get married is their character. Selfish, superficial people are not off to a good start together regardless of age.

Comment by Ann — February 28, 2010 @ 4:10 pm
Ann, I think you have some very good points.

And I have to chime in and agree with others that have said the 18-25 range is a time of serious change (which I’m in right now!). This doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t get married until after then, however. It just means that you run the risk of changing in a way that hurts, instead of enhances, your marriage.

If two people are together during that time of change, and are respectful of each other, open to seeing their own flaws, and truly prioritizing the needs of their partner, they can grow together into something beautiful and new. But I think it would also be able to grow apart, which would be really tragic.

Comment by Hammie — February 28, 2010 @ 4:32 pm
There will always be girls that get married young, in and out of the church. Encouraging marriage after 25 won’t change anything and it’s not like you can really schedule the day when you meet that person.

I actually do think that encouraging marriage a little later will make a difference. It doesn’t stop everyone from getting married young, but it sets the norm at a differernt place. If you grow up with the idea that getting married at 25 is a pretty good time, then you’ll tend to not look at every relationship in college as potentially eternal. Kind of like high school relationships–you know that its probably not going anywhere long term, so you can just have fun, learn from it, and not be plannng a wedding. I know that I never planned to get married in college, and so I think I tended to act that way–I dated guys I’d NEVER have dated if I was hoping to get married, We had fun, enjoyed the passion and excitement of the begining of the relationship, and then we broke up. I REALLY liked some of them, and did used to wonder if maybe, someday, I’d want to marry them, but I just wastn’ looking for a spouse and some of them honestly weren’t spouse material..

And yes, all the Law of Chastity reasoning for getting married so quickly, it really is possible to make it to age 25 (and beyond!) and still be chaste. And you can date longer than a few months, even if you can’t keep your hands off of each other. I actually think its a good learning experience–patience and self control come in incredibly useful in a marriage, with kids, and probably in every part of our lives.

I also recognize though that there are plenty of people who are going to fall in love with someone and want to marry them, no matter the age, and no one will convince them otherwise.

(My only regret is not being a full-fledged hippie in the 70’s, a fact that is hammered home twice a year when I visit Berkeley.)

Me, too, Numi! Me, too.

Comment by Kim — February 28, 2010 @ 5:06 pm
I’ve been thinking about the ways my Mister and I have both changed, and we have. For us, in a lot of ways, we’ve grown more alike. There are a few things that have changed in me that have been a struggle for our marriage.

If we had married older, maybe those things wouldn’t have been an issue, or maybe we wouldn’t have gotten married, but I also wouldn’t be the person I am today without him. And he wouldn’t be the person he is.

I think if you’re both dedicated to making it work, even when it gets hard, you’ll probably be okay- that was the biggest thing for me- was knowing that he was as dedicated to making a happy life as I was.

Comment by Alliegator — February 28, 2010 @ 7:15 pm
(and Numi- I wasn’t born until the end of the 70’s, but I have a neighbor who thinks I’m a hippy )

Comment by Alliegator — February 28, 2010 @ 7:16 pm
Kim,

I really like what you said. When you KNOW it is too early to marry, you just don’t view your boyfriends/girlfriends as potential spouses so you just date people you like. When my parents were young (and in the geographical location they were), it was the norm to marry the summer after your senior year of high school (as my parents did). So, many high-schoolers WERE looking at boyfriends/girlfriends as potential spouses.

If that was the expected norm now, both of my teenage daughters would have already had a few boys each that they would have wanted to marry. They were so giddy and in-love and enamored, they just couldn’t see straight. And then 3, 5, 8 months later, either the excitement has worn off or they begin to see things they don’t like etc. Then they are on to the next guy and the whole cycle starts over.

I think Kim is right - when you already have it in your mind that you won’t be getting married before a certain age, you just have fun and you learn. And I just really feel that then you don’t run near the risk of marrying too soon and too young before all of the newness wears off and before the needed maturity sets in.

And so, I do think the emphasis of “hurry up and get married and have babies”, is a bit dangerous. Why can’t the expected norm be pushed up a bit, just like we now see it as a bit unwise to marry right out of high school. I think girls (in the church)especially tend to get nervous that they are going to be old spinsters when they aren’t married at the ripe old age of 23 or 25 or whatever, and that encourages settling. I’ve just seen it happen over and over.

Comment by Lawyer Lady — February 28, 2010 @ 7:24 pm
Alliegator #226: There is a big difference between a hippy and a hippie. On the other hand, I am a hippy hippie!

Comment by Numi — February 28, 2010 @ 8:10 pm
#218 - I certainly wasn’t attacking you with my first comment directed to you. But your response does confuse me. You said, “but what nineteen year old girl would? ” at the same time that you are saying that you are old/mature enough, at 19, to marrry…It seems to me that you are saying on the one hand, your age has little to no bearing on your readiness to get married but on the other hand you blame not wanting to hear good counsel on your age, “what 19 yr old girl would?”
I’m not of the belief that you should call off your marriage yesterday b/c of the experiences shared here…However, I am of the belief that it would be beneficial to ask yourself some questions as to why there seem to be so many women sharing their experiences in favor of being older when married (or having a longer dating/engagement period etc etc). It’s really no bearing on my life or any women who has offered advice here whether or not you get married at 19 or wait longer. I see these very personal experiences (both good and bad) as a sign of care and love and when someone offers that to me, I try to look at that without getting defensive. I certainly am not expert at that (ask my dh!! :))…but I do think that is a part of wisdom and maturity - taking loving counsel without getting defensive.
And Lawyer Lady, I just always love your responses. You are always very kind and very real….

Comment by Amanda — February 28, 2010 @ 9:06 pm
Oh Numi! I can’t believe I spelled hippie wrong. I was taught better than that, I promise.

Blame it on typing without my full brain.

Comment by Alliegator — February 28, 2010 @ 10:10 pm
Alliegator, I had to look it up to see if I had spelled it wrong! Thanks for the chuckle.

Comment by Numi — February 28, 2010 @ 10:37 pm
My brother is serving a mission. He said his companion got an email from an ex-girlfriend who married someone else. She said she misses him and isn’t happy. Uh . . .

Comment by Stephanie — February 28, 2010 @ 10:45 pm
Lola-

No, you can’t control when you will meet the right guy, but (stay with me here) the day you meet him doesn’t determine the day you marry him. You can wait and get a better sense of what you’re getting into, what your marriage will look like, and what challenges you will have to be prepared for. Many have done it before you. I met my guy when I was in high school. I remember it well. After about a year of steady dating, we felt that marriage was in our future, but that conviction didn’t mean that I had to marry him as soon as I was legally able! There were too many variables in our lives, and we knew that, even if we couldn’t see what the challenges would be, it would have been insane for us to get married a that time.

Yes, my husband and I got married relatively young (21), but we waited until we really could honestly say that it wouldn’t be stupid to do so–that we weren’t doing it just because we were in love.

I feel very strongly about this. Love is important to a happy marriage. Most would say it is essential. But it is NOT sufficient to create a happy marriage. There are so many other factors that one is unlikely to foresee when one is still in the “young and in love” stage.

As silly as it sounds, here it is. Being in love (on its own) is a lousy reason to get married.

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Pingback by And They Lived Happily Ever After « Course Correction — March 1, 2010 @ 2:53 am
Lola - maybe it is the right time for you. I think some of the caution is to talk more with your fiancee about what would happen if.

I’m not sure about some of the other posters here, but I had a couple of relationships when I was about your age where I was head over heels. I thought I was so in love. I thought they were the best ever. We seemed to be made for one another.

It turns out they were not the right relationships for me at all. I learned so much about myself from the ending of those relationships - and I learned about other people. How honest they are, what their expectations are.

It was very important for me to go through that. To learn that people’s actions are often much more important than their words. And that I have to look out for my own interests, not anyone else’s (or to make other people happy).

And your future husband may be great. You may have talked about what might happen if you accidentally get pregnant while still in school (it does happen, you know). You may agree on things like careers, number of children, relationship with in laws, whose career you will nuture and grow (if that’s needed).

Maybe some of us just wish we could talk to our 19 year old selves. That’s me, anyway.

Comment by aerin — March 1, 2010 @ 10:29 am
I met my husband at 18, married at 19 (dh was 23), 1st baby at 20, and we are still happily married 30+ years and 5 kids later. That said…

I think being married with children so young warped us in some ways, like a weight we were not yet strong enough to carry. I was a natural-born feminist from the beginning, and have since met my educational and career goals, but sometimes it was hard almost beyond endurance. I am glad to see my children taking longer to marry and waiting to have kids themselves. They will most certainly have fewer children than we had. On the other hand, I am so glad we have each of our children…

People on the thread say that they evolved during their 20s. I would say my husband and I have totally metamorphosized multiple times over the course of our marriage, and not only in our 20s. It has taken patience, forbearance, endurance, and generosity of spirit on the part of both of us–to say nothing of independence–the ability to hold up and hold on to the relationship when the other is going through a bad time. And loyalty.

Thanks for this post and your comments. It is great to reflect on our marriage and its ups and downs. I don’t know what I would advise another person, however. We were lucky not to have the extra challenges of abuse or addiction, which make things even more difficult. My husband remains my best friend, dearest love, and favorite person in the world (most of the time). Looking back, I don’t regret the decision to marry, but I do sometimes wonder about our timing.

Comment by psychedaisy — March 1, 2010 @ 12:29 pm
“When you KNOW it is too early to marry, you just don’t view your boyfriends/girlfriends as potential spouses so you just date people you like.”

That held true for me. I was proposed to at the end of my senior year of high school and I really liked this boy, but also…I knew he really wasn’t a potential spouse. I knew I was in NO WAY ready or interested in marriage…I KNEW I was immature and had alot of growing up to do before I could even THINK of marriage! I think HIS motivation for marriage was for sex since he knew I was ’saving myself’ for marriage. I fully meant to go to college and grow up a little, or a lot if possible. I laughed it off, totally. My parents and grandparents had both married after college and that was my expectation although it was not their teaching to me. I never remember any discussions about this. I certainly wasn’t going to get waylaid that early in the game of my life!

I found the church, seemingly, as a direct result of my deep feeling and expressing to a friend that I would never marry any of the kind of boys I was dating . Where were all the good boys? Were there ANY? I had never met a Mormon. I met one that day. Five minutes after expressing my dismay about the lack of truly good men in my world. A Mormon? What is that? a boy who didn’t smoke, drink , or mess around with girls( at least …not …well, anyway..), AND WAS FUN? Really? is that possible in these times for men like this to be in existence? See how much some of you took for granted!? A man who was willing and eager to talk about his religion and values and beliefs on a first meeting? ( no, he wasn’t a missionary! )

I was eventually engaged to that first Mormon boy I met, while I was NOT a Mormon. In retrospect he wasn’t all that great of a Mormon, but what did I know? He broke our engagement because I was getting converted and he was getting inactive! Thank goodness he cared enough about me to break up! I was so unprepared for marriage, at age 19.

I admit it. I also broke an engagment, later, at BYU. It WAS too fast for me…I had many doubts, and I did NOT feel peace, even though he was AWESOME. I probably didn’t pray enough over that one, because he was so wonderful and I did love him. Wonderful should work, right? Love. It is a part of the equation, but certainly not ALL of it. )

When I did get engaged to my hub , 3 years after my baptism, my dad asked us to wait a year. We had a few semesters left at BYU. We didn’t even give waiting even a moment’s thought. No, we were ready. We knew we could do it, and do it on our own. And we never did have any arguments while engaged. And no doubts, confusion, or second thoughts. ( I don’t even remember any arguments during our first years of marriage, but we did uncover some differences, realized we were not exactly of the same mind or mindset, and had brushes with reality vs expectations, all which we accepted as par for the course of two people becoming one family. We had alot of excitement going on with baby, our graduations, career starting, home buying , baby, ect. )

We knew each other for 18 months. Engaged 5 months. We were 23 and 24. 31 years later, here we are. I still feel SO LUCKY! has it been perfect? decidedly NOT. There have been hard times..hard months…hard years. We are STILL learning how to please each other more, still learning how to love better. Learning how to forgive, apologize, and work together. And we are still growing up. I had no idea it works this way. I was pretty naive…and still am, in some ways. I thought I would be fully developed by now. Now I know that “live and learn, and CHANGE ” is a daily and inevitable process throughout life.

My testimony and determination to hold true to my covenant of baptism helped me more than I can even describe. The gospel and atonement of Jesus Christ is the foundation of our marriage. For myself, I wouldn’t want to navigate marriage without it. Being in sacred covenant with God and my husband makes the difference to me.

I have friends who married at 19 who are still married, and those who divorced. In and out of the church. I have friends who married later, with the same results. I think it depends much more on both INDIVIDUALS and their CHARACTER and their willingness to grow together with COMMON GOALS and standards, and their desire and COMMITMENT to learn together, to repent, FORGIVE and move on to the next day, and to be LOYAL to the marriage itself.

You can be on your own from 19-25, or you can be married, and you will still grow up during those years. I would not have had much to offer a marriage at 19, and I don’t believe I was ready to make a very wise choice, but I believe some people are much more prepared than I was. I also wanted some years on my own, and become independent of my parents, more complete and self-reliant, before I moved to marriage.

A person who marries at 19 will never really know for sure how things might have been different if they would have waited. They will still see the beginnings of marriage through their experience as a 19 year old. And they will usually defend their decision, and I would expect them to.

One thing I do know…I give people the benefit of the doubt, since it is not really my business! I don’t encourage early marriage, but from the moment they ARE married, I am behind them 100%.

(AND I still think they should feel free to break an engagement up to the moment they say I do, or yes, or whatever it is they are expected to utter! )

And psychedaisy…I liked what you said!

Comment by Melissa P. — March 1, 2010 @ 1:40 pm
I liked your comments here, Melissa. I think there is a lot of truth to them.

Comment by Lawyer Lady — March 1, 2010 @ 7:45 pm
Boy, growing up in my household I did feel pressure to marry and reproduce ASAP!
My parents are converts who got married young (as did their parents and so on and so forth) and are now divorced- I honestly believe my dad was just waiting for me, the youngest, to leave home. They had absolutely nothing in common anymore. It was obvious and it was…sad. My mom loved the idea of being married and she fought that divorce as long as she could but you can’t force someone to love or even LIKE you. And the maybe they had common ground at the start of their marriage but by the end I think it was obvious to everyone (with the exception of my mother) that it was a toxic relationship. I think it’s hard to be in the church and to be alone.
With the example of the spectacular failure of our parent’s marriage in front of us, I think my siblings coped in various ways.
My eldest sister, L, married at 19 to a RM. She was a student until she accidentally got pregnant which led to a lot of health drama and expenses. She couldn’t afford school and she was too sick for school. Three children later she was poor, ill, and had a husband who couldn’t keep a job or his fly closed. She didn’t want to seem the doormat that are mother was, so she left. Got a divorce, got an education, and has raised 3 girls alone with no child support. She has no plans to ever remarry either- she lost a lot of respect for the institution of marriage. And I’m not sure that she can ever trust again.
My brother, W, waited the longest to get married. He was about 27, had already graduated from school and is a military officer. His wife is 7 years his junior and reminds me of my mother- she waits on him hand and foot. She’s a housewife who finished college, stays home with their 4 children, and even runs marathons! In truth, they are more like the perfect Mormon marriage- my brother supports the family financially while his wife nurtures the kids and has the spirit of the home kinda deal. I myself am just not comfortable with the thought on depending on someone like that.
My third sister, K, married at 20- she met her husband at Ricks (he is also a RM). He is the most opinionated, self-righteous prig I have ever met…which is great because so is she. And because she is tireless, her opinions always win. She will never have the marriage our parents did because SHE is the boss- she controls everything like how she wants. I almost feel sorry for her husband…until he speaks that is. Then you just kind of get the feeling that they deserve each other.
My fourth sister, D, married at 18. As a matter of fact, he was a RM 7 years her senior that she met at church. They had been dating since she was 17 and by 18 they were engaged- they were married as soon as she graduated high school and immediately started having kids. He supports them and she stays home with the kids but it had it’s drawbacks. We can all see how alike they are to our mom and dad. Her husband often belittles her and she has no opinion of her own. He’s also very controlling. I get sick just being around them. Zhe worships the ground he walks on. And I think she justifies the way he acts by going “he never sleeps on the couch. He promised me that no matter how angry he is with me he will never sleep on the couch.” Our father WILLINGLY slept on the couch since I had been born- he didn’t want to share a bed with my mother. But is that really an assurance? I don’t know.
There were no LDS boys for me to date at my ward- they were always either too young or too old or going on missions. My mother wanted me to go to BYU after high school to find a nice, suitable boy but I chose instead to attend the local community college to be closer to my high school sweetheart. I started dating a Catholic at 17, was engaged to him at 18. But it’s such a volatile time- everything changes always at that age. You’re never sure what you want. So, naturally, I broke it off with my fiance. I dated around and even got somewhat serious with a guy friend of mine who was willing to convert to the church for me. But I just couldn’t do it. I wasn’t ready. He started pressuring me to marry him, even after we broke up, and my mother only made things worse. She kept saying how I needed to settle down, he was a nice boy- she even started to go through my mail and personal belongings to spy on me. I moved out and eloped with my ex-fiance from high school. And the first year was hell on earth. We weren’t ready- I still don’t believe that anyone can be at the age of 20. We had no idea what we wanted to be, we had no idea what we wanted from each other…it was terrible. I’m still married- I’d even go so far as to say that I’m now happily married. Because in some ways, we had to learn to give in and even compromise. My husband and I still have no idea of a lot of things, but we know what we want from each other and from our marriage and that’s beautiful.
I don’t encourage my nieces to marry young- they need to find themselves before they can find “the one”. And I get more than a little ill when I see girls that I went to church camp with who already have a few kids and no education. And I know that they probably get a little ill when looking at me- married to a nonmember with no kids
But I don’t think ours is by any means the only faith that puts on the pressure. My in-laws are devout Catholics and keep asking when I am going to give them a grandkid. They make snide comments about me having fertility problems, etc. And I do my best to put it aside.

Comment by Bethany R. — March 1, 2010 @ 11:02 pm
*gets up on personal soapbox*

I’m 19. I’m working at a financial institution (which is going to look a heck of a lot better on a resume than the fast food places many of my peers are at), I’m going to college, and I’m working on editing my two finished novels so that I can get them published. Suffice to say, my life is going pretty well. I’m definitely progressing. I’m also not dating. I did, briefly, but that’s a whole ‘nother story. Suffice to say I nearly *did* get engaged, right up until the spirit smacked me upside the head and told me to break it off.

I recently found out that one of the members of my bishopric was talking to one of our ward’s laurels. This girl is a senior in high school, and was apparently discussing college options with him. He suggested to her that she goes to a nearby college that has a reputation along the lines of BYU as far as the dating scene goes. He said that she should do this so that she gets married and doesn’t end up like me.

I’m torn between amusement at the fact that I’ve become a cautionary tale and anger that he thinks me a spinster at 19 years old. My parents (married at 26 and 27) seem more amused, while the laurel in question posted a big rant on her facebook about how happy she was to be single.

Overall, living here isn’t too bad as far as such things go. The local institute teacher is constantly trying to pair everyone up, but everyone else seems content to let the YSA do our thing all on our own. Still, I occasionally run across someone who seems to think that I should be desperately searching for a husband.

The way I figure it, if I find a guy, then I find a guy, whether it’s next week or next decade. If I’m at a point in my life where I feel like it’s time to start looking, then I will. Right now, though? I’m way too busy and emotionally unstable to go off and get married.

*gets off soapbox*

And long comment is long. And the first time I’ve been able to look at FMH in months. It’s nice to be back.

Comment by Elina — March 2, 2010 @ 12:41 pm
Elina, you’ll always run into people like that. I was told several times I was going to be “an old spinster” for similar reasons. Laugh it off and wait for someone who appreciates all those wonderful things about you.

Comment by Stephanie — March 2, 2010 @ 1:54 pm
Elina, if I were hearing you say this in person, I’d give you a high five.

Comment by AllieKay — March 2, 2010 @ 2:55 pm
See? Now that takes maturity to take an honest look at yourself and know your limitations. I like your comment, Elina.

Comment by Lawyer Lady — March 2, 2010 @ 4:37 pm
Elina! You are a long way from ‘ending up’ in ANY sense of the word! Sounds like you are right on track and enjoying life in a great way. ( And that story is just so crazy to me. ) Keep working on the things you are passionate about! It is a big world out there and you are enjoying this great time of life and developing talents. I admire that! What a great START you are making to the next phase of your life! Keep your options open!

Comment by Melissa P. — March 2, 2010 @ 6:06 pm
maybe i have been selectively reading/listening, but most of what i remember seeing and hearing (within the church) has said that spouses should ideally be equal partners as far as day to day life is concerned, and that waiting to get married is only seen as troublesome as you approach the age past singleswarddom. that is a good 10 years later than being a teenager, and plenty of time to have gotten an education and a career going.
i see DH’s status as ‘head’ as meaning that if i need it, he is there to help ask or confirm what i’ve been prompted to do. i feel confused a lot of the time, and talking it out and praying about it together usually gives me a MUCH clearer answer than the ones i get on my own when there are positives on both sides. i see it like- God has promised me that i can defer to DH as long as he is being righteous, and he will not mislead our family. same with a bishop. same with the prophet. i see it as a blessing to have another way to ‘check’ what i am supposed to do, in my own house.
as far as cleaning, taking care of the kids kind of stuff, i have always seen the roles we are given as being a rough outline of the minimum that children need, but that that doesn’t mean we cannot do MORE if we want to or need to. (meaning, single parent taking on both roles OR dual parents sharing responsibility)

Comment by pdig — March 2, 2010 @ 7:19 pm
on another tangent, i tend to believe mormon women often take anti-depressants because they tend to not self-medicate (as often)

yes this assumes that a butt load of people are depressed… in and out of the church. i don’t want to open that can of worms!

Comment by pdig — March 2, 2010 @ 7:45 pm
oh Elina, I so remember the cautionary tale stuff…I came home from my mission having already graduated from byu…and apparently some people thought I shoudl just go back to BYU and…. what exactly… hang out in the Engineering building? wink and smile?

Then I mentioned going to grad school on the east coast and the horror.

Comment by britt--the brat — March 2, 2010 @ 8:48 pm
Wink, smile, blow kisses, and twirl your hair around your finger. Dudes dig that.

Comment by AllieKay — March 2, 2010 @ 9:29 pm
pdig - saying that Mormon women tend to take anti-depressants because they tend to not self medicate implies that non-Mormon women tend self medicate. Granted, I have never suffered from depression, but I also don’t self-medicate when times are tough. Besides, who are we to say that taking anti-depressants is the more noble path than self-medicating? I know my aunt drinks a little most nights to “take the edge off”. I’m not sure what that means being a non-drinker, but she doesn’t stumble around drunk or get violent or anything like that. I think she is stressed, has experienced a lot of hurt in her life and is trying to get by. And she sits back and relaxes at night with her drink. She has a long term marriage (who knows if that equals success) of 42 years, children who adore her and a great career. She’s smart. charming, funny and kind. We all cope how we can. Some better tham others but i wouldn’t say that medicating is a more noble route, per se, than self medicating.

Also, what does that even have to do with the post about marriage?

Comment by Lawyer Lady — March 2, 2010 @ 10:25 pm
You cracked me up, in #248, AllieKay.

Comment by Lawyer Lady — March 2, 2010 @ 10:27 pm
I think most of us who marry young (and that is a ridiculous term anyway because nobody is ever ready for the demands of marriage because before you’re married you can never truly understand them) do so because we’ve found a worthy partner and receive personal revelation that this person would be a good choice as a mate. Also sex. And heck, that’s not a bad reason. That’s a fantastic, yummy reason! To declare age as in any way significant to the success of marriage is refuted by historical evaluation. The cultural expectations of marriage plays too significant a role to weed out any other correlating factors. Our society now expects men and women to be a certain age, have a certain degree of education, and a certain “forward thinking” mindset in order to make a successful marriage. What a bunch of hogwash.

Comment by Andrea — March 2, 2010 @ 11:11 pm
Because in some ways, we had to learn to give in and even compromise.

That is the essence of marriage.

A real problem is that too many people do not see that as important, or only one person does.

My DH actually got totally opposite advice from his MP

Mine sat me down and told me not to get worried if turned 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28 … and was not married, to take the time to find the right person. I’m glad I did.

Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — March 3, 2010 @ 8:03 am
Oh, Lawyer Lady, do drop by the Alcoholics Anonymous site and read the literature and decide for yourself whether or not you are describing what looks like it might be a serious problem.

Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — March 3, 2010 @ 8:04 am
To declare age as in any way significant to the success of marriage is refuted by historical evaluation

That can’t be objectively evaluated, Andrea, because times were very different back then. Life span was much shorter, culturally children had a lot more responsibility earlier than the more coddled version of child today. I could even see that in the context of my own challenging childhood, frankly. I was concerned with feeding myself and keeping a roof over my head. My teenage contemporaries were mostly concerned about music, dating and having a good time. We were worlds apart. I’d really have to go with evaluating things on an individual basis, because life circumstances vary greatly between individuals.

I’m thinking of this young girl I had mentioned above and how she shared in F & T meetings repeatedly how difficult her life is. She is the last child of very well-to-do parents. There isn’t a thing in her life she hasn’t obtained without minimal effort, or none at all. Her parents are happily married, she lacks for nothing. The things that reduce her to tears were almost inconsequential- kind of like the issues that concern a child…very real to them, but disproportionate. She would sob simply from discovering she had the same dress at the formal as another girl. She waited an extra two years to get her license because she was afraid to drive- and once, when she was lost, she called her father, who was travelling overseas, crying incoherently by the side of the road. I recall thinking as she wept over the podium while she related these hardships that she was in for a shock when she got married. She’s way too young to even consider it for a while. She could use a dose of reality for a spell and she has to gain some confidence in herself to meet challenges that are far more substantial than what she’s experienced thus far.

Comment by Kimberly — March 3, 2010 @ 8:58 am
FWIW, I do place blame at the parents’ door for not guiding children through challenges rather than providing a life that avoids anything even remotely unpleasant. It keeps them dependent and infantalized…if they don’t have a period of time on their own to gain some reality experience, I think it won’t matter if they married at 40…because growing up is all about learning to stand on your own two feet. Some of these kids never even touch the earth…and it’s even worse when this baby girl transfers over to a husband who is equally ill-equipped to deal with things. Even if he is mature and capable, it’s grossly unfair to saddle him with a child version of a wife.

Comment by Kimberly — March 3, 2010 @ 9:03 am
#253 - I do admit to naivity here. My Dad raised me and just didn’t drink. I was Mormon for most of my adult life and didn’t drink. My husband does not drink. So maybe I don’t understand it. My apologies.

Andrea - age as it relates to marriage is hogwash? Let’s just let our 15 year old teenagers marry, then! Both of mine would have already done so. There defintely is something about a little thing called “maturity” that helps tremendously in a marriage. To deny that is very unwise, IMO.

Comment by Lawyer Lady — March 3, 2010 @ 9:12 am
I agree. Saying that there is absolutely no correlation between marriage age and chances of successful marriage is pretty dangerous.

Saying that it has little to do with it, fine, but saying it has nothing at all to do with it?

Yes, back in the day it was not uncommon for girls of 15 or 16 to be matched up with men quite a bit older, but my impression is that the assumption was that marriage is a technical and economical agreement at the time rather than a relationship, necessarily. Thus, if a woman was past puberty and old enough to handle housework, she was ready to be married.

I would hope that modern women would want to find out who they are before marriage so they can build a good, strong bond with their husbands.

Comment by AllieKay — March 3, 2010 @ 10:44 am
lawyerlady-i was referring to a post someone made above about a lot of utahn women taking antidepressents.

i also did not say anything of judgement about either side, i was just trying to say that when people feel bad, they do what they need to do to feel better, according to their own standards, and i don’t feel like more people on antidepressants proves there are more depressed people.

on the other hand, IF the people on antidepressants are also receiving therapy (as they should be in an ideal world), that is infinitely better than any kind of “medicating”, self or otherwise

Comment by pdig — March 3, 2010 @ 2:23 pm
Argh, pdig. That comment is even worse. How is it not judgemental to say that people do what they need to do “according to their own standards” (which are obviously not your high standards) and

i don’t feel like more people on antidepressants proves there are more depressed people

That is a pure judgement call. You think that there are people who are not depressed taking anti-depressants.

I would say more, but I’ve got ideas related to this in a post I am working on, so I’ll wait. But, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people use the fact that a lot of women in Utah are on anti-depressants as a reason to find fault in the women - that there is something wrong with those low-standard women who are taking anti-depressants when they really don’t need them - that they have a “character flaw” (used multiple times in FW for women who might be anxious or angry or unhappy or depressed). Maybe there’s something wrong with the system.

Comment by Stephanie — March 3, 2010 @ 2:41 pm
#249 & #253 (Lawyer Lady and Stephen) –

I read LL’s post #249, and I do not find anything particularly objectionable in what she presents here (and, as someone who comes from a family of many alcoholics, I have more than a passing familiarity with the disease, its treatement, and AA). While there certainly are many people who self-medicate with alchohol who do so at levels which make them disfunctional, yet there are many, many more (like, apparently, LL’s aunt) who do so at a level which may, in fact, even contribute to their functionality and well-being.

Medical experts have fairly clearly identified proof that, while alcohol consumption carries its risks (as does the consumption of most prescribed pharmaceutical agents, as well), it also can have significant benefits to both physical health and to mental health if practiced in moderation by someone who is not prone to addictive behavior.

AA has a saying, “Our hats are off to him.” It refers to the person who can control his drinking and consume alcohol in a moderate manner on an ongoing basis. A true alcoholic cannot, as a rule, ever learn to do this — the first drink triggers the next and carries the alcoholic into the practice of his disease. But someone who is not an alcoholic may very well have a drink every evening to assist with relaxation and to provide cardiac benefits, and live a very functional life, either in spite of this behavior, or perhaps, at least in part, as a result of this behavior.

To try to tie this back to the original topic, I do not think the routine (but moderate) consumption of EITHER alcohol OR antidepressants is necessarily an indicator of unhealth or dysfunctionality in a population or an individual, but of the two, I’d probably be more concerned about high levels of antidepressant use than moderate alcohol consumption as indicators of psychological issues at the populational level.

Comment by Lorian — March 3, 2010 @ 2:41 pm
Stephanie #259 -

But, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people use the fact that a lot of women in Utah are on anti-depressants as a reason to find fault in the women - that there is something wrong with those low-standard women who are taking anti-depressants when they really don’t need them - that they have a “character flaw” (used multiple times in FW for women who might be anxious or angry or unhappy or depressed). Maybe there’s something wrong with the system.

This. I cannot imagine using the fact that many women in Utah take antidepressants as a means of judging Utah women as having “character flaws.” I would say that such population-wide issues indicate, not a problem with the women themselves, but with something in their environment, either physical, social or psychological (or some combination of these) which creates an atmosphere which is hostile towards or unsupportive of the women who live within it.

Comment by Lorian — March 3, 2010 @ 2:45 pm
ahhhh so haven’t read this in a bit, and forgive me for maybe restating something.

Has anyone considered that oftentimes depression is genetic? Granted environmental things effect it, but (at least in my case) it runs STRONGLY in my family. Could it be that Brigham Young or maybe another prominent LDS figure “back in the day” had a genetic tenancy for depression and then had a load of kids… Therefore spreading the tenancy through a largely confined population (like SLC and surrounding settlements). This could explain the large number of depression meds being handed out in UT and also not implicate anything in the overall environment as highly dysfunctional.

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 2:51 pm
Re 262 - one of my personal opinions on why so many anti-depressants are handed out is that it could be a flaw of the medical establishment. Real things cause depression. I think that one of them is hormonal imbalance - particularly the kind caused by having lots of little kids in a row (sound like Utah, anyone?). I think the medical establishment could do a better job of identifying the biological and chemical causes of depression and treat them instead of giving everyone an anti-depressant. Some people need the anti-depressant - some need a supplemental hormone for a while. But, in my experience, doctors would rather just give you an anti-depressant than work with you to figure out the hormone balance. I consider that to be a failure of medicine.

Comment by Stephanie — March 3, 2010 @ 2:56 pm
re 262 I agree that they are oversubscribed… kinda like the ADHD diagnosis was (is?). My mother is a prime example. She suffers from depression naturally through genetics, but when it kicked into overdrive (around menopause age) the doctor just upped her dosage rather than trying to find out the cause. She switched doctors soon after and found one that was willing to personalize her hormone supplements to what worked for her rather than just making her take the standard combined pills. It has worked wonders (with more than just her mood) and she is now hoping to be free of anti depressants on a somewhat permanent basis.

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 3:02 pm
April #262 - Good point. I think there IS a strong genetic predisposition component to depression, and you could well be right that the somewhat isolated gene pool in some parts of Utah could possibly contribute to an issue of that nature. It’s, of course, a theory which would have to be proven out by more scientific methodologies, but it’s not a bad theory at all.

Comment by Lorian — March 3, 2010 @ 3:07 pm
Yes, April, there is a strong genetic component for depression and that scenario of a relatively small population intermingling certainly could bring about a higher than average incidence of any genetically related condition.

There is also a seasonal component, an endocrine component, situational components (e.g. chronic pain, grief, chronic illness, unemployment). There can be combinations of all of the above. It happens at approximately twice the rate in women.

It has crossed my mind, in the LDS female population, that constantly falling short of some perfected image of womanhood- that “pedestal” that no normal woman can ever live up to, may contribute to some LDS women’s despondency. I’m all for self-improvement, but I’ve met a lot of women who take becoming or at least looking perfect very seriously and they never let up on themselves. Post-partum depression also plays a role in the greater numbers.

Of course, that’s not limited to LDS women- women in the larger universe also do way too much than seems possible sometimes. But I’ll tell you what, some of the events of the last couple of years within the church and my continued questions regarding doctrine and the patriarchal system don’t exactly make me feel like doing the two-step myself.

Comment by Kimberly — March 3, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
Ha Ha. If called upon to chose, which do you think most Utah Mormons would would find more offensive: being called inbred, or someone implicating that cultural/religious climate of Utah is damaging. I’ll stick to the Jello vs Funeral Potato debate!

Comment by Moniker Challenged — March 3, 2010 @ 3:40 pm
Gads… I wasn’t calling Mormons inbred, just saying that many are distantly related to one another…

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 3:44 pm
If the shoes fits….Let’s just say I’m glad that early converts were multi-ethnic. If this early restoration business had happened somewhere with less of a head start on genetic diversity I think we might be in real trouble now. Hazzard Co? Anyway, I know no one meant any harm. May I still be amused?

Comment by Moniker Challenged — March 3, 2010 @ 3:51 pm
It’s true April- when we were dating we found out my Mister has a common ancestor as an aunt. Small mormon world.

Comment by Alliegator — March 3, 2010 @ 3:56 pm
Yes, Moniker. I did not take April’s theory to suggest that Mormons are inbred, nor did I mean to stamp approval to any such theory. The fact is, there was a

relatively

small and isolated gene pool in Utah for many decades, and that the tendency of Mormons to marry other Mormons (along with the state’s history of polygamy) only exacerbates the issue. It’s simple fact that isolated populations can reinforce genetic traits rather quickly (like, in the course of just a few generations).

Again, I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion, by any means, that there is a genetic predisposition to depression among Mormon housewives. But I wouldn’t take the analysis of a population based, upon its shared genetic characteristics, as casting aspersions of being “inbred,” particularly in the most negative, prejudicial usage of that word (i.e., implications of stupidity or insanity).

The fact is that cultural tolerance (or encouragement) of marriages between first cousins, as takes place in some middle-eastern countries, DOES lead to genetic issues, and small, isolated population groups (particularly ones where polygamy has been a factor at some point) do tend to have more intensive histories of such cousin marriages. This isn’t intended as an insult — just a known fact of genetics. How deeply it applies to the population of modern Utah is the question which is not answered in this theoretical analysis.

As far as that goes, Mormons, themselves, with their deep commitment to the tracing of family histories and bloodlines, are probably the best-equipped to study an issues of potential genetic predisposition and either rule it out or confirm it.

Comment by Lorian — March 3, 2010 @ 4:03 pm
Sorry, Moniker. I cross-posted with you.

Comment by Lorian — March 3, 2010 @ 4:04 pm
“Wink, smile, blow kisses, and twirl your hair around your finger. Dudes dig that” I live in an area of many engineers, and in general those particular kinds of dudes decidedly DON’T DIG THAT. Well, maybe civil engineers. ( just kidding about the CE’s) But I do think all Dudes like smiles.
.

Comment by Melissa P. — March 3, 2010 @ 4:10 pm
stephanie

Argh, pdig. That comment is even worse. How is it not judgemental to say that people do what they need to do “according to their own standards” (which are obviously not your high standards)

i did not mean that at all. i mean if a woman is mormon, she is a lot less likely to have a beer, because that would be a decision that could severely negatively impact a lot of aspects of her life, and because she has committed not to. someone who wasn’t raised in/isn’t immersed in the church hasn’t been asked to do that. it is not part of our church that it is bad to drink if you are not mormon!!! we are supposed to follow the word of wisdom as a sign of obedience and faith, not because its a “SIN” in and of itself to drink. that is 100% cultural BS and not doctrine. i was not always mormon, and i don’t judge myself on ANY choices i made before i joined the church. i hadn’t made any covenants, and was not responsible to keep them. that is an almost direct quote of what my bishop and stake president both told me. i would not judge anyone else more harshly than i would judge myself. usually the opposite.
now, i know that when i get stressed out, i can go see a therapist, and if i want, i can take antidepressants. after i had my first baby i had terrible PPD, and if i wasn’t mormon, i know i would have thought about drinking. since i am mormon, that wasn’t even one of the choices i considered. it is not about thinking i am better than other people, and i resent being accused of that. when i had PPD, i did what i needed to do to not kill myself. my standards i had adopted helped form my possible solutions. thats pretty straightforward to me.

also, a sentence that starts with “i feel” IS a judgement call. i’m allowed to think things, and that’s no logical fallacy. i feel like being a mormon woman is not in and of itself depressing, and i feel mad when people use the ‘more antidepressants’ thing to say that it is.

i, however, am 100% on board with you as far as being pissed when people look for reasons to blame women for or accuse them of something. as far as depression rates increasing (not just in utah), i personally like to blame unhealthy food (due to filling the planet with hormonally-acting pesticides), chemicals, pollution… i am as far left as they come in that arena.

Comment by pdig — March 3, 2010 @ 4:58 pm
as far as depression rates increasing (not just in utah), i personally like to blame unhealthy food (due to filling the planet with hormonally-acting pesticides), chemicals, pollution… i am as far left as they come in that arena.

Aha! Common ground, pdig.

Comment by Stephanie — March 3, 2010 @ 5:15 pm
yay! i am usually the only one trying to explain endocrine disruptors to confused faces. xoxo

ps your name has a blank link on the fmh bloggers page. sad!

Comment by pdig — March 3, 2010 @ 5:21 pm
that’s cause she is a NEW perma blogger.

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 5:31 pm
Yeah, sorry, pdig. That’s on my to-do list. I have a feeling I am going to like you.

Comment by Stephanie — March 3, 2010 @ 5:59 pm
i did a getting to know you, and im about to read yours

Comment by pdig — March 3, 2010 @ 6:44 pm
Stephanie is (in gamer terms) LEET!

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 7:59 pm
welcome pdig! i’ll say it here and not over there since this thread needs another hundred comments.

Comment by mfranti — March 3, 2010 @ 8:01 pm
april, what does that mean?

and one day, when i grow up, i hope to be as cool as stephanie. maybe even LEET (once i know what it means)

Comment by mfranti — March 3, 2010 @ 8:04 pm
Thanks, April. (I think?)

Comment by Stephanie — March 3, 2010 @ 8:06 pm
Leet or rather 1337 is short for elite (e-leet). Just FYI.

Comment by Starfoxy — March 3, 2010 @ 8:12 pm
oh, then i guess i’ll have to wait until my next life…

Comment by mfranti — March 3, 2010 @ 8:17 pm
Ack, what? I’m a rookie. Just trying to learn from the masters around here (like mfranti!)

Comment by Stephanie — March 3, 2010 @ 8:33 pm
i can’t tell you the joy that just came into my heart from the 1337 talk. i make lan party jokes at my husband’s expense at least weekly.

Comment by pdig — March 3, 2010 @ 8:52 pm
oh, and thanks mfranti

Comment by pdig — March 3, 2010 @ 8:53 pm
i love how i’m an afterthought to geek speak.

Comment by mfranti — March 3, 2010 @ 8:59 pm
LOL ya think they got the 1337 speak down I guess a synonym would be “Uber” …. too much slang janglin around my head at the moment…. sorry

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 9:04 pm
Oh and Mfranti… you like to Pwn (own) people once in a while when they are acting troll-like… Your kinda OP (Overpowered), but since Stephanie is new and all, I haven’t had a chance to see her totally Pwn someone yet

I’m a geek… what can I say?

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 9:07 pm
BTW that is a total compliment

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 9:07 pm
*shakes head* and this is what I get for allowing my hubby to suck me into the “world o’ warcrack”

Comment by April — March 3, 2010 @ 9:08 pm
..paging Not Ophelia…

Comment by mfranti — March 3, 2010 @ 9:09 pm
From #20: “but every Mormon woman that I personally know that married past age 25 ended up marrying a divorced Mormon man with children. Most of them are happy, so I’m not knocking the choice, but that’s certainly not the fantasy image I had growing up. So, if Mormon culture continues to push young marriage like they did with me, what are my daughter’s chances?”

Your daughter is being influenced not only by the Mormon culture you are trying to help her navigate through, she is also hearing your own “fantasy image” (whether you voice it or not) being played like a broken record (have to go retro cos metaphor doesn’t work with “cd” or “mp3″) in her subconscious. So, your daughter’s chances don’t look super great, it seems, if you don’t want her to be single past the age of 25. For single-after-25 me, I didn’t know who I was at the age of 19 or thereabouts, but I sure thought I did! I was “all dat”–spiritual, happy, and excited about life. Only as I look back, can I really see how little I knew and how little I was. It’s all there inside us, though (from the start)–all we can and will be. How great to nourish that young part of ourselves and allow it to grow and then find someone who will be like Miracle-Gro to us–as we will be to him or her. Ironically, the church TALKS about divine potential, but seems to “look beyond the mark” by emphasizing eternal marriage without encouraging thought and true care for one’s evolving soul, which may result in…(gasp)…waiting, or not marrying at all. Gulp…did I say it? YES! Weeeeeee!!!!!!

Comment by Thoroughly Modern Molly — March 3, 2010 @ 11:13 pm
re: 271

Inbreeding as a result of polygamy is perhaps less likely given the huge influx of new converts (from all over Europe) every year from even before the move from Nauvoo. Though FLDS polygamy has been accused of generating some inbreeding, perhaps the Utah Mormons not so much. I do however wish that someone would do a study on Epigenetics of Pioneer stock, for like the pivotal Swedish study that ignited the field of epigenetics, all pioneer families suffered famine both on the trail and in the early years. I wonder if
the same effects (reduced cardiovascular issues in 2nd generation sons, increased diabetes in third generation sons shorter life spans in the daughters of 2nd generation sons (I think I remember that right)) might be found among the offspring of the Utah pioneers. T’would be an interesting thesis to explore. There appears to be quite a bit of research currently on the impact of Epigenetics on depression and other mood disorders. Environment appears to matter to inheritance across generational lines. (Note: I’m not saying that use of anti-depression medications are common in Utah. I suspect that to be just another urban legend. I’m just saying I’m interested in the multigenerational effects of food shortages in the early years.)

With respect to the original subject of this post, I married very young. In retrospect, I think it pure luck that our marriage survived it’s first decade. I’m so glad, cuz the last 35+ have been great. I have, at the daughter’s requests, told the granddaughters to take their time and not be in such a hurry to marry and have babies. And yet, one thing I admire about the Mormon culture is the expectation that children are actually expected to grow up. I just read another article about “helicopter parents” who hover about their kids even after they go off to college. This article says many universities have created “dean of parent” roles just to deal with the parents who intrude on their grown offspring’s college experience as if they still need a parent arranging play dates. I’m concerned about the infantilization of our children. 17 year old Granddaughter is unique among her friends for working after school. None of her friends even looked for summer work to save for college. Yea, I know that more education is needed in a complex modern society than was necessary in the older days, but still. While our lifespans may be increasing and our society is more complex, kids will be kids forever unless they are, at some point, expected to accept responsibility and make their own decisions. And, it kinda seems like unless they start getting used to doing so when the choices aren’t life changing, how well equipped will they be to make a lifetime journey choice at 20, or 25 or even 30? Might I suggest that the best way for the culture to support future families, is to support, encourage, and expect kids to grow the heck up.

Comment by Betty Jo — March 4, 2010 @ 12:13 am
Might I suggest that the best way for the culture to support future families, is to support, encourage, and expect kids to grow the heck up.

Amen to that!

Comment by Stephanie — March 4, 2010 @ 12:51 am
Amen to that Betty Jo.

Comment by Melissa P. — March 4, 2010 @ 12:51 am
This post has really stuck with me as I’ve been thinking about what constitutes “early marriage”, and while formulating a response, I realized that I went totally off track : ) So thanks for inspiring me to post to my own blog after almost two years to write about the flip side - growing up in a culture where the idea of marrying early is discouraged and then wondering at what point the compromises you all have talked about become appropriate and okay to make for a relationship.

Comment by epi — March 4, 2010 @ 9:36 pm
epi, that was an excellent post.

Comment by Stephanie — March 4, 2010 @ 9:45 pm

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