Where is “the church”?
I had a lot of fun yesterday reading everyone’s comments to my first post here. (On a more unfortunate note, I wasn’t very productive in OTHER areas of my life yesterday, but . . .)
So I thought since my post from yesterday was critical, I’d post today about a talk that I love. I was cleaning out my church bag a couple weeks ago and came across my kids’ junk, crumpled-up Friend magazines, gum wrappers, and old ward bulletins, and came across an article called “Where is the church? by James E. Faust. You can read the talk here.
It’s a great read, and I think it’s applicable to the struggle(s) through which I am going as a member of the church.
In answer to the question, “Where is the church?,” he first discusses whether “the church” is in our buildings. Although he praises the buildings, he ultimately answers that no, “the church” is not in our buildings. Then he asks whether the church is in our families and says that “we are getting close to the correct answer here.” He defines “family” broadly (includes traditional families, single-parent families, and ward families), which I really appreciated. Then he says that “the family is and must always be an important part of the church. But the Lord’s kingdom ultimately must be found in our own hearts before it can be anywhere else.” He tells the story of David (1 Samuel 16) and what we learn from this study about how the Lord judges by what is in our hearts. He says: “Like Daniel of old, what we do and do not do in life originates in our hearts.”
OK - sorry if that was longwinded. When I read this, it occurred to me that I ought not blame “the church” for anything. The church is an institution, run by individuals–all of whom are volunteers. They make mistakes. We all make mistakes. I was really annoyed by (and so judgmental towards) the woman from Utah who was telling me over dinner that people in the Bountiful area are rich because Heavenly Father blesses them for being so valiant/righteous (I’m still cringing). Wow, what does that say about the people in Haiti?? But then a week later, she offered to take care of my kids so I could go to work on a day when school had been cancelled because of bad weather. I was ashamed that I had spoken unkindly of her. And sometimes when my husband and I talk, I could swear that we were not even raised in the same church. But we were. So it can’t be “the church.” It’s the people that attend it—and who also run it—who are either to blame for what’s wrong or to praise for what’s right.
Faust ends by saying: “So The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is in our heart of hearts, and, when it is in our hearts as individuals, it will also be in our great buildings of worship, in our great educational institutions, in our magnificent temples, and it will also be in our homes and families.”
Reading this talk made me ask: 1) What’s in my heart? What parts of “the church” (=the gospel of Christ) are in my heart? And what parts aren’t? Are there some that are missing that should be there? I’m sure there are. And 2) How can I communicate to my children the good parts (I’m trying to skip over the bad parts . . .)? It’s my responsibility to communicate those things. Like Faust said, what we do and do not do in life originates in our hearts.
This struggle of trying to find the really good things from the “church” that you want to share with your children with as much passion and enthusiasm as you do when things or people start that fire of criticism has been an obstacle that I have yet over come. With my DD who is six, when I find something I really like that I hear, see or feel, I just keep it simple and let her know that whatever it was really touched me. But that does not seems to not compare with the over the injustices that I see and complain about with in our organization.
So if you find the solution, let me know because I would like her to have a good grasp of “the good stuff” and in the same breath not be ignorant of the problems.
Comment by LindseyM — March 12, 2010 @ 9:15 am
Thanks for this post, hkobeal. I have been working on trying to soften my hard heart lately (particularly after yesterday’s post). I found these two talks from the last conference helpful: Preserving the Heart’s Mighty Change and An Easiness and Willingness to Believe.
I think it is so, so essential to be praying and reading scriptures regularly and living the gospel to be in tune with the spirit to be able to discern and receive personal revelation. And to let stuff go. I feel like I have to work hard to keep my heart soft.
Also, I really liked the stuff President Faust said about families in the talk you linked to.
Comment by Stephanie — March 12, 2010 @ 9:38 am
Oh, I really miss James E. Faust.
Comment by Hammie — March 12, 2010 @ 11:06 am
Amen, Hammie. He was good people.
Comment by Reese Dixon — March 12, 2010 @ 11:13 am
I do believe that the Kingdom of God is within us, that my heart is where Zion resides and begins, but why is the religious Structure wherein I reside so faulty? I appreciate mistakes, my own and others’, and how they inspire repentance and growth, truly, but wonder why it’s so dang hard for Christ’s church to not be structured more compassionately? Why isn’t it always “right the first time?” We counter with statements like, “It’s run by people, and people aren’t perfect.” I know that that statement is singularly true. Or, “The Lord’s people weren’t or aren’t ready for such and such a change.” But, still, it’s Christ’s church. I don’t get it. I cling to Christ with the deepest part of my heart and will continue to work hard for that softness and to keep the Structure where it belongs–which I’m still figuring out.
Comment by Thoroughly Modern Molly — March 12, 2010 @ 11:22 am
Thoroughly Modern Molly–good questions all. I used to buy the explanation that “we weren’t ready for this or that,” but that just doesn’t resonate with me anymore. When Christ was on earth, he certainly didn’t wait around for people to “be ready” for his message.
I think there are structural problems within our church that are not the way Heavenly Father and Christ want them to be. I see a lot of inequality, and the kind of god I cling to would not abide that and would want to root that out. Would want to set up a structure where those kinds of structural inequities would not be present.
So then what? Where to go from there?
Comment by hkobeal — March 12, 2010 @ 11:27 am
Keep swimming.
Comment by Stephanie — March 12, 2010 @ 11:30 am
Just keep on keeping on, Stephanie? That’s what I do, mostly, but sometimes I get impatient. Truly the only place in my life where I feel marginalized as a woman is at church. Nowhere else. And I just don’t think that’s the way Heavenly Father and Mother and Christ intend it to be. I can’t think that.
But wait–that’s not what we’re supposed to be talking about. Is it possible to threadjack your own thread??
Comment by hkobeal — March 12, 2010 @ 11:32 am
This really helped me relax… It’s a pretty well written paper on what makes doctrine and reminds us that we aren’t bound to bad ideas regardless of the source. I basically could post this under any topic because that’s a major theme here, but I feel like it fits pretty well here and if it helps anyone else like it did me I’m a happy lady. It’s from John Dehlin’s staylds site.
http://www.staylds.com/docs/WhatIsOfficialMormonDoctrine.html
Ps threadjack but when are the Phoenix peeps gonna get together? Don’t forget us down here in the valley of the furnace
Comment by pdig — March 12, 2010 @ 11:34 am
Good stuff, pdig. Obviously I didn’t speed read the whole thing, but for now (because I’m late for work), I think I get the gist. I think it’s great to raise awareness of what is “official doctrine” and what’s not, but on the other hand, in terms of what happens day to day with average church members, a LOT more stuff gets thrown into the “doctrine” basket, doesn’t it?
Here’s a silly example. It’s not official doctrine that women can’t wear pants to church. It’s just not. I pretty much wear business attire (pants, button up shirt) to church every Sunday. I feel better and look better in pants. And frankly, I look nicer (in terms of dress) than many of the women there wearing t-shirts, denim skirts, and flip-flops.
So what to do when the executive secretary approaches my husband one Sunday with a print-out of an article regarding “modest dress” for women in it?? That kinda crap poisons the well for me. No, it’s not doctrine, and yeah, I can blow it off, but it sure makes it more difficult to enjoy being at church.
And we’re supposed to enjoy being at church, right??
Comment by hkobeal — March 12, 2010 @ 11:44 am
Yes, I know what you mean. I hate feeling hate lol!
On the other hand, my husband says we get extra special blessings for tolerating horrible people
Comment by pdig — March 12, 2010 @ 11:49 am
Pdig, I like the extra blessings idea. So I’ll get extra blessings for tolerating the man at church monitoring my dress (not to me directly, of course, but through my husband). I’ll remember that next time.
Comment by hkobeal — March 12, 2010 @ 11:53 am
I like that blessings idea, too. It’s a way to be optimistic, which leads to a soft heart.
Comment by Stephanie — March 12, 2010 @ 11:54 am
Yes Stephanie! I really feel like a soft heart, being like a child… Those are totally noble wonderful goals, and any tips and tricks I find that make it easier on me (I have been called an a- b- c- and if there was a d I probably would have qualified). It is my natural woman nature to be brash, crass, and stubborn. Although I wish I could make the jump to ’soft’ more easily, I will work on what I can as I figure it out… What else can a person do?
So i be a little selfish, be understanding to douchebags because i feel like it’s better for me, but once I’ve taken the first step it becomes easier and more natural to be patient. Then everyone is a little blessed!
I’m not saying we can never confront people, but that it is way more effective and kind to do it with tact and a little Christ-like love
Comment by pdig — March 12, 2010 @ 12:02 pm
Incomplete sentence. Excuse me.
Comment by pdig — March 12, 2010 @ 12:03 pm
Hey, there’s a d word! It doesn’t have the same implications as the first 3 though
Comment by pdig — March 12, 2010 @ 12:04 pm
Thoroughly Modern Molly-
I just want to say I love the name. Very clever.
Comment by Zaissa — March 12, 2010 @ 12:37 pm
I like the concept of not feeling bound to certain ideas… and defining doctrine over philosophy and what not.
Comment by Bobby Pin Natalie — March 12, 2010 @ 12:45 pm
#10 “And we’re supposed to enjoy being at church, right??”
This has been on my mind a lot lately. We went through a ward division/realignment a couple of months ago, and the resulting changes have left us in a ward that is very different from the previous (large, friendly, supportive) ward.
My children no longer have the strong youth program. There are very few active youth, and there seems to be infighting amongst the leaders. People are butting heads all over the place, and quite frankly, church isn’t much fun anymore. For any of us.
I want to quit. I want to move. I want to run and hide. And it has made me really think hard about the reasons why I go to church. Because realistically, I won’t quit, and I won’t move. Though I might occasionally hide. I go to church because I know that this is the Savior’s church. Even if it doesn’t look or feel like it sometimes. I go because I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and in saving ordinances, and in the importance of the sacrament. I go because I want my children to know that this IS Christ’s church, whether or not it’s members are behaving in a Christlike manner. And I know that right now it is more important than ever that the church is in my home, that the gospel is in my heart, so that my children can learn that God’s plan is a plan of happiness even if the 3 hour block is a time of unhappiness.
Comment by meggle — March 12, 2010 @ 2:05 pm
When I’m irritated with “the Church,” I look at its official name: “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” It’s the Church of Jesus Christ, yes, in that Jesus Christ stands at its head, in that it brings us closer to Him, in that it teaches His Gospel and His Plan of Salvation.
But there is another side of the coin–it is the “Church of…Latter-day Saints.” It’s out church. It’s made up of individual people who are imperfectly trying to understand and worship God and follow His plan. Those imperfect people make up the leadership and the membership of a Church that the Lord says He is “well-pleased” with. We all have to be patient with each other, because we’re collectively responsible for the Church. We have to remember that while the Church bears the name of the God we worship, it also bears the name of each of us.
Comment by Amy — March 12, 2010 @ 2:47 pm
I guess I think of church as a place to learn about Jesus and learn to love. It’d be easy to love if everyone at church were perfect and always enjoyable. what makes our families (as he defines them) so powerful is that to love our time, energy and money are needed but much more than that…we have to be really charitable-kind, patient, slow to take offense…that sort of thing
Comment by britt--and the brat — March 12, 2010 @ 2:54 pm
Amy (#20) - Nothing to add. Just wanted to say Bravo for your comment. I never thought of it that way before. Thanks.
Comment by Cordelia — March 12, 2010 @ 3:27 pm
#19–I can appreciate and relate to your commitment. I also agree that many times we need to stick with things that are hard. And I of course think that usually it is best to be patient and long-suffering.
But sometimes we gotta stand up either for ourselves or for our kids. Part of me wishes that I would have calmly approached the man who handed that article to my husband and said (again, calmly) something like: “In the future, if you are concerned about my clothes, please come talk to me directly.” And then gone back to primary where all the good stuff in church happens, anyway.
My daughters and I were all asked to participate in a fashion show that, unbelievably, was being put on by and for the RS sisters in our stake. I’m one of those people who likes to say “yes” to everyone, but this was something I couldn’t abide, so I just no and explained why we would not be participating in a women’s fashion show.
And then when I caught wind that someone was going to come to Activity Days to “teach the girls how to walk down the runway,” I politely called the AD leader and told her that I didn’t think 8-11 year old girls needed lessons on how to walk down a runway and said we wouldn’t be coming. Several other moms agreed that it was ridiculous and they didn’t end up doing it.
So even though I like to be a team player, sometimes I think you gotta go with your gut and speak your mind.
Comment by hkobeal — March 12, 2010 @ 3:36 pm
Yay for you, hkobeal.
Comment by Thoroughly Modern Molly — March 12, 2010 @ 4:38 pm
I don’t view it as God holding out on us until we’re ready for something, but more like, we as people are not willing to grasp onto what God is holding out to us waiting for us to take.
I figure Christ could do a lot more to get people to reach out for things than we can do on our own.
That’s not to say we can’t help nudge people in the right direction when they seem off base. (If someone handed my husband an article suggesting I change how I dress, I really hope my husband would tell them that if they have an issue, they ought to bring it up with me. That’s kind of cowardly to go through your husband…)
Comment by Alliegator — March 12, 2010 @ 5:16 pm
“Nudging”–good word choice, Alliegator.
Believe me, I was bugged that my husband didn’t take the guy to task, but he was so flabbergasted, he didn’t know what to say!
Comment by hkobeal — March 12, 2010 @ 5:22 pm
I think my husband would have been the same way. Maybe someone ought to let the bishop know that his executive secretary is taking it upon himself to direct ward members in personal habits.
Comment by Alliegator — March 12, 2010 @ 6:10 pm
Strongly agree with you ! I was very inspired by the essay you wrote, and I thought you expressed your point of view extremely well ! It’s my opinion that Christ was “ahead of the curve”, or in front of society in many things, such as tolerance, love, compassion, and understanding. He was the Wayshower, a leader of social and cultural values, as Heavenly Father meant Christ to be.
In comparison, I think that church officials are behind the curve, behind the times in regards to women’s rights and women’s self-determination, ( as pointed out in the “don’t let anything harden your divine nature devotional). As more freedom and equality are granted to women, the church officials lage a bit, ( in my opinion), and that is why you may feel marginalized at church. Sometimes, it feels as if women are stuck in the late 1940’s-early 1950’s.
Thank you so much for your excellent essays. I hope you will continue to contribute, as your thoughts and ideas are very edifying.
Comment by Wonderment — March 12, 2010 @ 7:08 pm
Here’s something I wanted to add ( without turning this thread into a “fashion police” discussion
) I think that Christ is overjoyed when people show up at church to celebrate His grace and forgiveness; and it doesn’t concern him very much whether or not women wear pantsuits or men wear colored shirts. I what is in our hearts matters to Christ more than fashions.
I used to work in a very upscale company, in a very upscale area, with a very strict dress code. It was so strict, that the president of the company used to walk around each day and see if employees were wearing the correct type of shoes ( no flip-flops, sandals, sneakers, or crocs). And even with the very strict dress code, women were allowed to wear professional business attire pantsuits. They needed to have a jacket that matched the pants, or a coordinated blazer that matched the pants, as well as a button up shirt. My thought is — if women attend church neatly groomed, in a dressy pant suit that fully covers them, with button up shirt, and dress shoes, that should certainly display enough reverence and modesty to keep HF happy. And if HF is happy, then church officials should be happy. It’s the same thing with men who choose to wear colored shirts. The Lord knows us by what is in our hearts and our desire to serve Him — not by the cut of our clothes or the color of our shirts. ( Just my opinion).
Comment by Wonderment — March 12, 2010 @ 7:27 pm
Christ certainly didn’t wait around for people to be ready for HIS message, but there seems to be a lot of inequality and social ills he didn’t choose to tackle head on. He didn’t make 50% of the apostles women, he didn’t try to free the slaves, and he certainly didn’t try to throw off the shackles of the Roman Empire. Except for the leaders of the Jews, he didn’t tackle “the system” head on. People weren’t ready for that. So, He advocated change in the most subversive way possible: His message was to change people from the inside. Matches up with Faust’s message, I think.
Comment by Martin — March 12, 2010 @ 8:10 pm
2nd Martin
Comment by pdig — March 12, 2010 @ 8:12 pm
Hmmm . . . I’m gonna have to chew on that one, Martin. I get what you’re saying, but it doesn’t help me feel less frustrated and impatient. After all, I’m not Christ, right? I’m just a regular middle-aged Mormon mom/wife/professor, trying to do my best.
Comment by hkobeal — March 12, 2010 @ 9:21 pm
Oh I dunno. Christ was magnificent in the case of the adulteress being stoned…not shy about being in everybody’s face on that one and a public stoning was a big deal. I think he chose his moments wisely. Attacking established practices within Judaism was tackling the established system that concerned him. Through his example, he repeatedly demonstrated adjustments in practices that were considered taboo- healing on Sunday, ministering to a Canaanite, refuting dietary restrictions. All these things had become cultural practices attached to religion and Christ challenged these practices openly and caused people to really think about the rationale behind the things they were purportedly doing in the name of righteousness…basically emphasizing that they had nothing to do with righteousness by ignoring all these petty man-made rules.
A PH member running to a woman’s husband and tipping him off on the inappropriateness of her wearing pants to church is exactly the kind of busy-bodiness that needs to go.
BTW- I don’t think he didn’t speak directly to the woman out of cowardliness at all. He was simply rebuking the husband for not presiding over his wife properly. Either that or he was simply extending the courtesy of not circumnavigating the husband’s authority over his own wife. I guess the two are kind of the same thing…
Comment by Kimberly — March 12, 2010 @ 10:21 pm
Oh boy…. I think I prefer to imagine the guy was being cowardly.
Comment by Alliegator — March 12, 2010 @ 10:31 pm
mmmm… that makes me want to smack someone….
Comment by April — March 12, 2010 @ 10:45 pm
#33 & #34 - re: whether he is cowardly or not. He most definitely is not cowardly, although I do wonder why he didn’t give the article directly to me. It’s sort of his thing. When he sees something or someone that bugs him, he goes home and finds articles from church magazines and conference talks to show the person how/why their belief or behavior is wrong and then brings them to church the next Sunday. Boy, was he busy during that last presidential election season. My husband was the proud recipient of many such print-outs.
Comment by hkobeal — March 12, 2010 @ 10:45 pm
I just wanted to say how much fun it is to have you around hko. I’m totally digging you.
Comment by Reese Dixon — March 12, 2010 @ 11:41 pm
Well, maybe we can give the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he gave your husband the print out because you weren’t handy.
Maybe you ought to find a talk about minding your own business or judging others, and give that to him next sunday.
Comment by Alliegator — March 12, 2010 @ 11:43 pm
oooo I like that idea Alliegator. Preferably one that is by Elder Faust
But make sure and do it with a spirit of love and with the intention to keep others from being harmed by similar actions.
Comment by April — March 13, 2010 @ 12:12 am
@Reese Dixon, aw . . . thanks. This has been so much fun (even if a few people have accused me of being an angry, unhappy person, which I’m totally not!).
#38-39–would love to find a talk about minding your own business. Or maybe just some NT scriptures about the Pharisees . . .??
Comment by hkobeal — March 13, 2010 @ 1:17 am
hkobeal, that is hilarious! It really makes you wonder about someone who is so intent on calling others to repentance.
I’ve been called an angry, unhappy person, too, so you’re in good company (although in my case, it might be true)
Comment by Stephanie — March 13, 2010 @ 10:07 am
(everyone is angry and unhappy at some point or another- are we supposed to be happy and smiling all the time?)
Maybe I need a talk on that.
Comment by Alliegator — March 13, 2010 @ 10:22 am
LDS.org Search
Hopefully that link works- there was a whole list of talks that looked like they might be useful. If it doesn’t, I’ll post some of the best ones individually.
Comment by Alliegator — March 13, 2010 @ 10:25 am
#42–Yeah, I don’t think we’re supposed to be happy and smiling all the time. And aren’t blogs a place to vent/talk/whine/discuss? I’ve never written anything on a blog before, so maybe someone needs to educate me.
Comment by hkobeal — March 13, 2010 @ 10:25 am
#43, Alliegator–awesome! Maybe I should keep one–just one tiny copy–in my bag. Call it emergency preparedness!
Comment by hkobeal — March 13, 2010 @ 10:28 am
#2 looks like the most useful one…
Comment by Alliegator — March 13, 2010 @ 10:31 am
Gulp–from the looks of the title, it looks like I could use its message as well . . .
Comment by hkobeal — March 13, 2010 @ 10:33 am
Well, considering the reason I was looking for it, so could I.
(It actually was a really good article)
Comment by Alliegator — March 13, 2010 @ 10:34 am
#2 was great! Thanks Alliegator! We should all carry one around.
Comment by Melissa P. — March 14, 2010 @ 5:54 pm
@42
I think my mother appreciates the Book of Job for this very reason.
Comment by Portia — March 17, 2010 @ 4:39 am