Why I Believe
Over on the Exponent II discussion group, someone posed the question “What keeps you going to church?” I’ve already fessed up here about my most recent crisis of faith. But my spiritual struggle preceded this most recent crisis. Perhaps we really are all wandering in the desert–throughout our lives, not just during the moments when it seems most obvious. There have been a few things that have kept me active in spite of my doubts and concerns throughout my life, and that gradually got me back to full activity (though this was more of an internal than external shift) and I now I feel really richly rewarded spiritually for having come back. I posted this list of some contributing factors to my staying/ returning to church. These are not all the greatest reasons, but I don’t think they’re all bad, either. And each has played a role for me at some time or another:
Church is one of the few times I have to just sit.
To give your kids something to believe in in contrast to all the crap that’s out there in the world.
Fairmindedness: I want to give as much room for faith as for doubt. I want to read as much from apologists and apostles as I do from murmurers and critics of the church. (Hence my beginning to read some fair-lds.org stuff and even some bloggernacle stuff in addition to the critical stuff I was reading.) Otherwise, how can I even pretend to give it a balanced appraisal/ a fair shake?
Fate. This is the religion I was born into, so that’s where God wants me to be, or this is the religion I stumbled onto so this is where God wants me to be.
For marital/ family/ household harmony.
I like (and believe) some of the unique and deep doctrines of the church.
Where else could I find so many instant (and decent) friends? (The social support network)
Covenants and integrity.
Hedging ones’ bet. I mean, come on–what is the church doing that is so bad? It’s trying to help people be more honest, more productive, more Christian, more godly. Even if they’re wrong (but I don’t think they are) it’s not like they’re asking us to sell our children into slavery or support porn or gambling or the drug industry!
Else where should we go? As a friend asked me, “You’re going to become Episcopalian?” (you know, the women & priesthood issue)
I feel good when I go (read my scriptures/ wear my garments/ pray/ etc.). I feel bad when I don’t. Sure, that could just be ingrained psychology and the result of formative years of browbeating. But I don’t think so.
I’m a sinner. Sacrament is a good reminder to keep trying to be a better person.
I like having a source of guidance more concrete than a God I don’t see with my eyes. (scriptures, apostles & prophets)
I deserve answers. So I’m gonna keep seeking them.
Serendipity. Instances of Grace from the Universe that are clearly more than mere coincidence.
In spite of my questions and concerns, I’ve had too many positive, church or ordinance-specific spiritual experiences to just walk away. (Like being filled with the Holy Ghost when I was baptized.)
By their fruits–I’ve been turned off by the underhanded tactics I’ve seen used by many ex and/or anti-mormons.
Ministering angels.
I love the temple. I don’t want to lose the opportunity to use it as a place of refuge, learning, meditation, peace.
Social pressure. Especially when compounded with not knowing for sure. I’d rather not broadcast my doubts and cause all sorts of grief in the process before that’s even necessary if there is any chance that they might be resolved down the road.
For hope. That there is some purpose for all the garbage we go through.
I like the idea that God does not behave the way the world does (controlling, violent, prideful, vengeful…). That seems right to me.
Guilt.
I’ve recognized my tendency to care to much what other people think about me and that sometimes I have turned away because of the ridicule of the world (great & spacious make-up kit). I don’t want to “be ashamed of the gospel” or be “offended in” Christ.
Cause I’ve sometimes received answers or guidance about how to find them when I’ve prayed for them. I’m not a put-it-on-the-shelf type person. I’m too obsessive for that. So for me instead I really focus on an issue that bugs me til I can make some headway on it/ get some new understanding. Read everything in the scriptures, conference talks, etc. that I can about it, pray about it, even yell at God about it if I have to.
Because I have experienced the reality of evil, and been delivered by and only in the name of Jesus Christ.
Because I have experienced the love and help of God even at times when my prayers have been curses (I don’t recommend the cursing God route. It’s a painful road back. But “mine arm is outstretched still”).
Fear of eternal death, damnation, hurt, separation from God, separation from family, Satan, unhappiness… Lack of desire to be drunk with my own blood as with wine.
Women and children are treated better by individuals living the precepts of the gospel than individuals who are not. The condition of women in the supposedly liberated world is really pretty sucky.
Because I’ve had enough experiences in which I’ve been shown how completely totally wrong/ misguided/ ignorant I was to believe that I could be sure enough about the church being problematic enough to walk away. And often God’s plans for my life have worked out MUCH better than my own plans for my life (even though sometimes it hasn’t seemed that way in process).
Because I’ve felt the balm of forgiveness and the strength of grace and renewal through Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Because history is all constructed/ mediated/ based on perspective & emphasis etc. anyway and supposed fact-gathering isn’t even the point of “church history” to begin with.
Those swelling emotions I feel about the gospel, the sacrifices of my pioneer ancestors, even some cheesy Mormon art and music that from the view of a critic I absolutely HATE, etc.
Because of been reminded (only after going back to the fountain) of so many things I have been given knowledge of throughout my life, here a little, there a little.
Given the gravity of spiritual decisions, I’d better be sure.
Because I have a nearly palpable relationship with God that overrides the errors, shortcomings, and misunderstandings we get from the scriptures and church leaders. I don’t want anything to separate me from the Love of God.
Clearly some of these won’t work for others or even at certain times for me. For example, when I was upset with the content of some Primary lessons and sharing times, the doing it for my kids reason didn’t work. When my spouse was also struggling, the “for marital harmony” thing didn’t work. Someone who has had negative temple experiences is not going to stay in church for that reason. Someone dealing with a church leader who is full of balony on a particular issue is not going to be appreciating “church guidance and direction” at that particular time, etc. But as I said, each of these has played a role at various times.
Fabulous post!
Comment by Julie in Austin — October 5, 2005 @ 1:33 pm
Wow, Lisa that was really amazing. You always do wonderful thought provoking posts but that was by far the best of the best.
Comment by fMhLisa — October 5, 2005 @ 3:22 pm
Yes, Lisa, I agree with Lisa and Julie. I really want to respond, but I have to start my lovely looooonnnggg commute. I’ll be back to this thread later! Well done!
Comment by Athena — October 5, 2005 @ 3:28 pm
Your words capture many of the feelings, thoughts, struggles, and tentative conclusions that I’ve been contemplating over the past year or so. I haven’t yet put together a summative statement about my experiences as you have about yours. I probably won’t for a little while. I’m not really at a summative stage yet. I’m still deeply engaged in the “investigation” process, but I’m also simultaneously deeply engaged in the “active church member” process, and have no intentions of becoming anything else, despite the cognitive dissonance.
Like you, I know (not just believe, but know) that there is much too much good in this church, in this gospel, in this community of believers, to leave it all behind. I went to the temple last week and basked in the peace that is found no where else. And yet my questions persist. My doubts do not disappear, and my curisoity is not satisfied.
Searching from within the bounds of my faith, even as I stretch beyond them, is unquestionably an “anchor to my soul” and I cannot progress any other way without risking un-grounded relativism and insincere posturing. I am a child of the covenant, and I am deeply indebted to that heritage.
Some days I feel I should speak out more–especially in church gatherings–and twist the thorn in my side a little more, in an effort to perhaps dislodge it. But usually I keep quiet. I keep quiet not to deny the existence of the thorn, but in recognition that the thorn belongs to me, and I want to respect the faith of those who may have other thorns, but do not share my own. Faith is organic, tender and vulnerable. Sometimes I want to hack of the roots of what I consider the false or incomplete faith of others, but I don’t know that I would accomplish much that way, or at least I don’t know that what I would accomplish would be “virtuous, lovely, or of good report.” On a very basic and important level, faith is worthy of respect. I will respect it.
In the process, I trust, hope, and believe that my own faith will guide me, if not inerrantly, at least genuinely, down the path that I should follow … as long as I live honestly with myself and God.
Comment by Sublime Curiosity — October 5, 2005 @ 3:58 pm
Amen, Lisa! I have questions and concerns, and in some ways I think the church is not always in the right. (But what institution on this planet is?) But all the things you list are the other side of that. Well said!
Comment by RoastedTomatoes — October 5, 2005 @ 4:14 pm
Hey, LisaB, thank you for sharing.
I am quite emotional right now, because…there are a variety of reasons. I guess I’m feeling a little beat up after having posted a few things in the Conference blog.
I don’t question like I use to. Is that a bad thing? I know how my heart feels, I know what my spirit feels. I know how I feel about my husband, my marriage, my kids. I know what I feel about the priesthood. The Lord has had His hand in too many important things in my life for me to ever deny Him or His church.
I know the church isn’t perfect, that men (and woman) are not perfect. I will not live in Utah for that reason. (I was born and raised in Utah, and lived there until my husband got a job out of state; I won’t go back. Too much clickishness, too much backstabbing, too many “Sunday Mormons”.)
But, I have felt the arms of God surround me and hold me…the most spiritual experience of my life…as my husband gave me a blessing I had asked for and had so desperately needed. (Forgive me if my words are misspelled, I can’t see the screen through my tears.) I can’t deny it, I can’t deny Him.
Can I truly explain it to others? No. Will others really believe me? Probably not. I just know, I just know…
I have struggled, I have cried, I have prayed. I have felt His love surround me more than once. Words cannot describe how I know and how I feel. I have had a personal witness of God, and His Son, Jesus Christ. In reference to Joseph Smith, he could never deny what he had beheld, no matter what others said, or did. I cannot either.
I am not a huge religious zealot; I yell at my kids, I hate to do dishes and laundry, I hate to cook and would rather be out playing soccer or volleyball than doing most anything else. But for whatever reason, the Lord saw fit to manifest Himself to me. (I actually think I know why…I couldn’t go on living…I hated myself…I hated who I was…I felt so screwed up and that I couldn’t go on, that I was just hurting the people in my life more by being here. I never had, true, parental love. My mother had betrayed me (another long story) and both my father and mother had emotionally abandoned me.) The Lord coming to me was………….He loves me……..and I matter to Him……….He put His Arms around me and I felt Him……I am a Child of God…..that was the first time in my life that I felt that I had a father who truly loved and cared about me. (tears, tears, and more tears)
I know my earthly parents love me, but they are both messed up emotionally and can’t express love. But the child in me was dying….at 28, the child in me was dying and needed to feel that everything okay, that I was loved and protected….the Lord rescued me.
I was able to let go of a lot of hurt and anger towards my parents that day.
I God lives, and that the Church of Jesus Christ is true. I just know.
Comment by princessleah_mom — October 5, 2005 @ 6:06 pm
A beautiful post! Thank you.
Comment by Loryienne — October 5, 2005 @ 11:27 pm
Fate. This is the religion I was born into, so that’s where God wants me to be, or this is the religion I stumbled onto so this is where God wants me to be.
The problem with this one is that if we hold to that then we might as well cancel the missionary program.
Comment by Frank the Fish n' Chip Man — October 6, 2005 @ 9:19 am
Sublime–
Thanks for your post. It mirrors my own experience over the last year and a half as well. I take the good, admire those who can (in what I can only consider to be immense faith) swallow or stomach the bad, and hold to the hope that my personal answers will come. In the meantime, I’m trying not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Because for some, the bathwater isn’t as murky as mine and who am I to muck it up for them with all my irritation?
Comment by Kanga — October 6, 2005 @ 10:56 am
I’ve found that “why I believe” is a different statement for me than “why I stay.” Some of the solutions in the opening post better answer “why I stay.” This is why I think it’s so important to research, expound and know the doctrine of the Church. It’s one thing to stay because your visiting teacher is wonderful and the familiarity of the ward is comforting. It’s another to affirm and forward beliefs that are unique to the gospel. I also like to study the early doctrines of the Church that teach about our eternal destiny, as well as more current teachings about how to live our lives day-to-day.
Comment by Cynthia — October 6, 2005 @ 11:35 am
Thank you for your thoughts. I wonder sometimes if my wife shares these…
Ok, I am new to blogging and have used a ton of time at work jumping around links and reading the last couple of days and I decided I would post my first here. I have debated about giving my wife this website link to read along with you all, I know she would never stumble upon it because she doesn’t use the computer, although very capable.
I sometimes joke with my wife about being a femi-nazi when things like you have brought up here in this site surface in our lives. She, if not quite yet, is a feminist.
She minored in women’s studies when she got her BA. Has had a career, that when I was between jobs supported us, and allowed me to be a househusband for a few months. (I would let my wife be breadwinner and stay at home if I could, work, yes, unrewarding, yes, felt unappreciated, yes, but it was not the corporate world.) I loved it.
I (and we) am pretty typical, think I know church doctrine, served a mission, keep our temple covenants (except a few speaking evil of the lords anointed and consecration issues), have three beautiful children, go to church regularly, pick through the Ensign, say prayers at large family meals, let the Boy Scouts put up a flag in the front yard, pay a full tithe, deep notable pioneer heritage to be proud of, refer to the world in five categories (members, less actives, the ex’s, the anti’s, and all the rest), you know, all the usual crap…
We have callings, otherwise we would be inactive. We just absolutely hate Mormon Pop-Culture, Utah and Arizona Mormon think, and all that goes along with this…
I didn’t do church in high school until the last minute repent before you go mission and have a pretty colorful past, no big deal. I loved my mission.
She didn’t do church through high school or college, we dated, and because I intended on the temple she made some slight changes. She started wearing a bra (which is kind of bitter sweet, but deep inside I think more bitter), and all the regular stuff you do to get active so a bishop will let you go to the temple. She kept her maiden name, and it was a difficult discussion, that I lost, for our first child to share my six generation old middle name. She said I was fortunate that the children even got my last name (or were blessed in church), since she got to fill out the birth certificate.
I am really trying to grip life and the church and do it right. I have read enough to know that our church has a tainted past and that there is probably a lot of things that we do currently that God would change, if he could, without destroying people’s agency, and undermining a lot of mistakes of past General Authorities when they thought it was right (the millennium has to be at least 1000 years to clean up some of the mess in the Church).
With all that is laid out and the assumptions and everything else we know now, here is my question. Why shouldn’t I be afraid of her and feminism?
Sometimes I actually don’t like having the priesthood because she thinks of it as some emblem of inequality. I don’t offer blessings to her or my own family, because she doesn’t jive. I give them to her siblings and participate in both our extended family’s ordinations and other such, even with her father, when asked, but nothing personal. We don’t even talk about it because it seems to make her livid. I can’t help it, I am just trying to do what is right, and I have had some powerful experiences.
I hate it when she asks why questions, as though I am some authority, about some duty or quote or basically anything that has to do with men in the Church and doesn’t equally include every woman. Damn, I don’t know these things?? I didn’t write the rules. I am not going to discuss it with the Bishop, either, she won’t, it is none of his business and my wife definitely would not approve of that. She has not spoken to the Bishop or his counselors except twice (when they met, and when she needed her recommend renewed for her sister’s sealing). I don’t know any of the reasons, and yet I am seen as the indirect antagonist and it creates friction, if I don’t explain it as gender neutral as possible, or disagree. I definitely NEVER say, because that is the way God set it up, or that the Prophet said it, or that is just how it is. I cringe when people talk about it in Sacrament Meeting or some talk is the subject. If some poor women knew how she blasted them for being so blind or oppressed because they are sheep (you know, the RS president types). So I hope it never comes up, and we never intimately talk about the Gospel.
Then, I feel like I have not done God justice, to witness what I have learned about the priesthood, as His emissary and witness, with His power to serve. I would like to feel that I have a special responsibility as a bearer, but not too special or it pisses off the really wonderful, capable, intelligent woman I am fortunate enough to have for my wife. She is a better person than I am.
I don’t know why women have slightly different covenants, or the temple experience is different for women than men. What do I care about veils over faces? I know she can do anything I can, and some things better, but why does it always have to be an issue? I would like to have some things that I am, and get to do, “just because.” It doesn’t need to turn into a gender issue all the time.
I love to know empowered women, they are remarkable, but our species would not survive without both sexes. There has to be some way that God intended us to coexist. Is the Church really so off base?
Again, why shouldn’t I be afraid of feminism? How do I truly show my wife that I see her as my equal, and more, and still be a faithful, obedient, Elder that honors his Priesthood? She won’t go to the temple, and so I can’t go. Amidst many other issues that could be listed that everyone has covered before…
Comment by no one in particular — October 6, 2005 @ 3:00 pm
Brother,
You are in deep trouble long term with your marriage if your side of the story is accurate. My prayers are with you. You can take any idealogy to an extreme. Your case seems to be a good example of that. Also she does not seem from your side of the story to be in a 50-50 partnership with you. You need to make decisions together out of love not the idealogy of one partner.
One day she will need to decide. Militant feminism or LDS? The two do not mix well.
There is room for Feminism in the church just not the type that you are experieincing. Lisab is a good example of the good feminism.
Comment by Leonard — October 6, 2005 @ 3:39 pm
No one,
First of all Leonard is full of crap. We love him, but he doesn’t know the first thing about your marriage (in trouble or not) or if your wife has taken anything to an extreme.
I think it sounds like you are both very good people who love each other and want to be the best people you can be without denying important parts of yourself.
Why not be afraid of feminism?
My best advice is that if you are afraid, if you try to force your wife to see things your way instead of trying to understand her, you’ll probably lose that connection with your wife, and all those things about her that you love so much.
You can not change who she is. You can only change how you react to her, how you view her, how hard you try to understand her.
This doesn’t mean you have to agree with her, and it certainly doesn’t mean that she has to agree with you. It’d be nice if marriage created one big brain, but alas you have two, and you both have the right to use them and come to whatever conclusions you will. But you can respectfully disagree about things and still love each other and have a happy marriage and a happy life.
However, you being afraid of her opinions isn’t going to get you very far toward “respectful” disagreement.
My husband and I went through this too. A decade ago, He was very uncomfortable with my feminism. He hated hearing my questions, he would get very upset with me for not seeing things his way. We didn’t talk about a lot of things, it was just too hard.
We’ve grown out of that phase. We still don’t agree on all kinds of things. But we can talk about it and we certainly don’t “fear” each other.
You sound like an awesome guy to me (you sound a lot like my husband and so I’ve got a big ol’ soft spot for you already). And you’re wife sounds like my kind of gal. Send her on over, it sounds like she could use some faithful feminist fellowshipping. You can’t imagine how much peace I’ve found here, I’m sure you’d like the same thing for your wife.
Comment by fMhLisa — October 6, 2005 @ 4:12 pm
Cynthia–I agree that it’s two different questions. I think some of the reasons listed capply to “staying” and some cover “belief” and some apply to both. But for me, if I believe, I stay. Also, I’ve found that “staying” at church/ being active has coincided for me with increase in belief (most of the time, not always). I think there are situations in which people need a sabbatical (from church–I know ironic use of the term sabbatical since it has the same root as Sabbath) and that taking that needed break helps increase their belief.
Leonard–What the heck?
Someone in Particular–You asked “Why shouldn’t I be afraid of her and feminism?” I ask “Why SHOULD you be afraid of her or feminism?” Would losing the fear mean embracing your own feminism? (One possible read.)
You know, some of us believe that the way it is (priesthood) is not actually the way it ultimately will be, nor the way God (ideally) “wants” it to be. We are in the fallen world. Men ruling over women is a condition of the fallen world, not the ideal. Marriage in the Holy Order (the highest order of priesthood) is a hint of what the ideal is. Did you listen to conference? Endowed and sealed couples administer and lead their homes jointly, or do so unrighteously. Just an idea.
Comment by LisaB — October 6, 2005 @ 4:51 pm
Someone in Particular (I like that LisaB),
I know that it has meant a lot to me that my husband does not fear or worry about or deride my feminism, and it has meant even more to me that he freely and unashamedly admits that he doesn’t know why things are the way they are, and doesn’t feel the need to try to explain or apologize for those things. It’s even better that he doesn’t feel the need to defend those things.
I think from your post that you have tried to explain to your wife that you don’t know why things are as they are, but I hope that when you express that, it comes out as loving commiseration rather than as defensiveness or exasperated frustration. (Not that you aren’t allowed to be frustrated, we all are–and she clearly is, it’s just that you asked how you can help her to understand that you truly see her as an equal, and in my mind, taking her questions seriously goes a long way.)
At the same time, I think it is sad if she is truly denying herself the blessings of the Priesthood. I can certainly understand how anything to do with presiding and patriarchy can be painful to her, but I still think it’s sad to distance herself from you and from blessings when it’s not your fault you have the keys to give the blessings while she is denied them.
I don’t know that I have anything wise to say, but I sympathize with both of you and join Lisa in urging you to send her our way. This is a community of women (and some men) who certainly understand her questions and I know I have benefited very much from my participation here.
Comment by Athena — October 6, 2005 @ 5:54 pm
LisaB, an interesting way to look at it the whole priesthood/patriarch hang up. I guess I had never really looked at it from that perspective; you make a great point that we are in a fallen world, and men are men, no matter how spiritual they are, and that the priesthood as it is now is not necessarily how it will be.
Another thought: because the people of the world, and that includes members of church, have not be ready or willing for some of the changes that take place (women having rights, even basic rights as seen in Afgahnastan (sp?) blacks and people of color having equal rights and being able to hold the priesthood) that some, if not many commandments and covenants have had to be withheld? We have come a long way as a world and as a church, but if you think about those in the church that were against “every worthy male” receiving the priesthood, it shows that even as a church we are not always ready for what will be.
I also want to say, that even though I think this is not the “ideal” and that things will change in the hereafter, I feel that my husband and I have…I don’t exactly know how…but for us, there is no confusion on how I can be equal with him, and he be the patriarch. I am not submissive, and he doesn’t believe I should be. I honor the priesthood he holds and his title and presence of patriarch; I am not intimidated by it, and he doesn’t abuse it. I feel we share equally in all things. He actually is the more compassionate and patient one; he actually does the dishes (I hate them) and has potty-trained 3 of our 5 children (I am hoping he will train the twins, too). He has a full time job and studies for professional exams. (I’m just lazy and hate domestic work. I sit around and eat bon-bons all day. JK, I do feed the kids sometimes. Wink!) Anyway, I have a great husband, whose mom raised him to be a great man and respect woman. He learned well from his mom. (Mom’s (and woman) have a bigger influence in this world than we sometimes give ourselves credit for.)
Comment by princessleah_mom — October 6, 2005 @ 6:01 pm
(sorry continuation) and that as we, as women of this church and world, continues to mold our young men into great men who truly honor, respect and love women, then that can go a long way. My mom-in-law did a great job raising her boys, and I hope I can do the same.
Comment by princessleah_mom — October 6, 2005 @ 6:03 pm
Someone,
Your wife sounds a lot like me in many ways. I also have an extremely hard time asking for blessings from my husband. I think I’ve done it twice since we’ve been married, and it’s only been when I’ve had food poisoning so bad I thought I was going to die and was willing to do anything to stop the pain.
It just makes me really uncomfortable and upset to put him in any kind of position of ecclesiastical authority over me, and that’s what I feel a blessing does. I do have extremely liberated Mormon women friends who lay hands on and bless their husbands and families in turn, and I really admire that. I think I’d be ok with him blessing me, if I could bless him too sometimes. But I haven’t tried that yet.
I found your ideas about priesthood interesting. I personally have come to the point where I reject the idea that having the priesthood means a person has special responsibility. It just doesn’t make sense to me that a father would be any more responsible for his family than a mother. I wonder if others have also questioned whether priesthood equates to ultimate or special responsibility….
Comment by Caroline — October 6, 2005 @ 8:16 pm
Lisa, thank you for this post. I know I’ve had a lot of spiritual tug o’ war about the church and my own beliefs and sometimes I wonder (fleetingly), what if it’s all a load of fantasy and I’m putting myself through this hell for nothing? But all my frustrations, anguish, and occasional anger seem unable to shake my attachment to, 1, God & Christ, 2, Their gospel, and, 3, this church. I know the first two are perfect. I also know I and everyone else, including the church, are not. And I guess that believing that God will make it all right in the end is what really keeps me going. God is what keeps me going. I think he gave me (or let me recognize and struggle with) my concerns for a reason–for lots of reasons, not the least of which is that by struggling with my faith, my faith can grow stronger. I know more. I consciously choose more. And wasn’t there something about this life being a learning experience, an opportunity for us to use and develop our agency?
My husband doesn’t understand all the points of my concerns, but he’s been very loving, very un-pushy, and very committed to US, come what may, and that has helped me a lot. We don’t often go to the temple or have him give me blessings either, partly because he’s a convert and never got into the habit of it in the first place. I did ask him for a blessing shortly after our honeymoon, because the traumas of our wedding had brought a lot of my issues to the surface. We didn’t have any great spiritual experience from it, but it was certainly an expression of faith for both of us, though more along the lines of ‘believing in spite of the gap’ faith, vs. pure comfort for unquestioning faith.
I have a returned missionary, wild-child friend who confessed to me that she had tried to lose her testimony because of her issues (not the same as mine), but she just couldn’t do it. Even though she wanted it not to be true, she knew deep down that it was. I think I have a similar conviction, though I’ve never actively tried to dislodge it. I think that’s how I’m still able to feel peace along with the frustration.
Someone, I think Caroline, Athena, and the Lisas have given you some very good counsel, so I won’t belabor this, but my two cents are that it’s important for you and your wife to be able to talk about your feelings and concerns, even knowing that you disagree. She needs to know that she’s completely, emotionally and spiritually safe with you and you need to know that you’re completely, emotionally and spiritually safe with her; and if you’re hiding from the issues that you both know are there, holding back some deeply-felt feelings, it will inhibit the peace and comfort that your relationship can give you about those very issues and feelings. This is one of the things I love about my relationship with my husband, that even at the extremes of my frustrations and sorrows, I can always trust him to be there for me. That couldn’t happen if we thought we couldn’t talk about the hard stuff.
Please let your wife know about this site. I know it has been very healing for me to be able to discuss my these things with people who understand and relate, and I think it would be for your wife as well.
Comment by Artemis — October 6, 2005 @ 10:03 pm
Someone,
I too went through a difficult period of communicating with my spouse about the church. For us it wasn’t about feminist issues, but I remember being very afraid of the way he talked about the church. I was not in the habit of questioning authority at the time and worried that I would lose blessings by doubting them or the validity of every part of the church and it’s history. Although I still acknowledge the wonderful and unique parts of the church, I have come to understand through my experience that the church has a lot of deeply rooted problems as well. I feel God has helped me many times to understand that my path as a member of the church is no where near as important as the path I travel with my eternal companion and my children. I have learned to never put church council and policy or even doctrine above the inspiration I feel to keep my family united in love.
What would have been my greatest fear in the past has become my reality in that my husband no longer wants to be a part of the church. By the Grace of a loving God, however, I have come to appreciate and respect his path as one that he needs to travel. I love and respect him with all of my heart and reject any notion that I should do anything less, for I know that God is love, not fear.
Comment by river stone — October 6, 2005 @ 10:03 pm
I agree with your list and have experienced many of them myself.
Another one to add: Mormonism “works”. For the majority of people, the restored gospel and current church practices deliver on their promises of helping people live more productive and fulfilled lives. The teachings about alcohol and drugs, and the emphasis on fidelity in marriage have spared lots of people lots of heartache.
In addition, I am a better person when I participate. As much as I kvetch about pointless, last day of the month HT visits, I am happy when I do it. I like to think of myself as the kind of person who would look out for others and love his neighbor without being called, but the evidence doesn’t sustain that assumption.
Comment by Mark IV — October 7, 2005 @ 6:34 am
Wow. What a great outpouring of love and support. I’m glad sharing a bit of what I’ve gone through has been helpful.
Great addidtion Mark. I was hoping we’d hear some more.
Yeah, Frank, that fate reason is perhaps the lamest, particularly given our beliefs about free will & personal accountability. But it did work for me at one time (in combination with some of the others). Perhaps it would be better described as faith in God’s plan for my life (including the circumstances I was born into, etc.)
Comment by LisaB — October 7, 2005 @ 7:30 am
Oh, and river–thank you for sharing your peace, faith, love. What an example you are to me.
Comment by LisaB — October 7, 2005 @ 7:32 am
I hesitate to use the label feminist, because it is such a loaded word. Being a feminist doesn’t mean I want to be a man, it’s only that I want to be respected for being who I am. I use yin and yang a lot to express this difference. When you look at the yin and yang symbol, the yin has a spot of yang and the yang has a spot of yin. You need both to achieve the balance. I don’t want the priesthood, I have enough to do already. My husband is not a member so we don’t have that power struggle others describe. I don’t have to be a man or equal to a man because being a man is not going to help me do what I have to do. It’s not about who is in charge, or who thinks they are in charge, because we all have a common goal and to achieve this higher level of the Celestial Kingdom you can’t do it alone. God set it up that way for a reason. You have to overcome your pride, and it requires some humility to get to that point in a marriage where you are interdependent. We need Christ to overcome our sin and we need each other to achieve the greater “afterlife goals” so to speak. You can’t do this thing of ours alone.
Comment by Josette — October 7, 2005 @ 9:08 am
Yep, that’s it for me. Also, I agree with your “to whom [else] shall we go, Lord?” thought. Honestly, many days these two things are ALL that keep me in the Church–I’ve had it with the pervasiveness of Utah-style Pharisaic thought, and I’m through with trying to reconcile history, but where else will I find what I’m looking for. Better to look through a glass darkly than to just have a towel over your head.
Besides, I had a deeply personal and life-changing spiritual communication with my Heavenly Father some 12 years ago that both initially converted me and keeps me (mostly) in my place today. So, I’m still here and anticipate being so for the rest of my days. Now to see if I can keep my kids interested in this (when I have kids)…
Oh, and princessleah_mom, thanks for sharing.
Comment by Akash — October 7, 2005 @ 11:53 am
Second post to add: my wife believes because the Gospel makes her strong. She doesn’t blather with history and complaining like I do, since she’s a scientist by training. She goes with “by [its] fruits shall ye know [its truth]” and that does it for her. Can’t believe I’m married to such a great woman: praise God!
Comment by Akash — October 7, 2005 @ 12:26 pm
It’s interesting how all of us seem to have the chance to struggle with belief, to make that choice, but that the subjects over which we struggle differ. For me, personally, certain things like the existence of God, His awareness of and love for us, the reality of our spirits and the spirit world are things that are not ever worth wasting time discussing. It would be tantamount to arguing over whether or not my leg is attached to my body and anyone who wants to dispute it is just being silly.
But with other things, I am the one being silly, in others’ eyes. It makes me wonder if maybe the process of coming to trust God, to believe without coercive proof is somehow very important. That this processs itself, and going through it, is tremendously valuable, not simply for the knowledge we arrive at which seems to be our goal at the outset, but for what we learn about ourselves and our relationship with God in the process of going through. And maybe it has a great deal to do with God’s respect for our agency.
I mean, how often do we all say, “Lord I believe, help thou mine unbelief”? We want to believe, but God doesn’t seem to be in the business of providing overwhelming proof. In the past few years, I have come to appreciate the respect for my own choice that is involved in this process and somehow, in ways that I’m not really able to express very well, it makes my ignorance and lack of understanding more bearable.
Comment by Jesse — October 7, 2005 @ 2:26 pm