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1. OH, man. I live in one of those mythical purple wards where blue state/ red state patrons combine and worship together. It is quite lovely.

   But, I am in Provo, Utah for the summer.

   Ugh.

   Let me tell you. There IS a huge difference. But for the quads people are holding, some days you would hardly be able to recognize it as the same denomination.

   Or at the bare minimum… people in my ward would not get away with writing “Problems with America” on the chalk board and listing “The Gays” underlined twice underneath it. (this happened two Sundays ago in ye ol’ Provo ward)

   The problem is distinguishing where culture begins and where doctrine ends. We can all cherry pick our favorite scriptures and random BY quotes to fit our political persuasion… but, whether it’s “culture” or “doctrine… it still makes me sick at times.

   Comment by Kate — June 9, 2010 @ 1:20 pm

2. I remember when I first heard about “New Order Mormons” (i.e. folks who don’t necessarily accept LDS religious tenets but maintain activity for social/family reasons) I was like: “Gag me with a spoon, if you’re not staying in Mormonism for the religious offerings, what in the world would lead you to stay at all?”

   My own insensitivity aside, I’ve been pretty insulated from Church culture for a long time now–although I’m active, I’ve lived outside Utah for 14 years, my wife and I are the only members in our respective families, and we’ve never been terribly social in any of our wards–and I don’t particularly mourn its absence in my life. I don’t cheer it either, but the “dang” and “fetch” and funeral potatoes and so forth were never really the greatest blessings that Church participation brought to me.

   Comment by Bro. Jones — June 9, 2010 @ 1:47 pm

3. Love those blue state wards too! I just visited my old ward in Pittsburgh (I currently live in MT) and wanted to cry I missed it so much. Had the men passing the sacrament without white shirts, including an older black man wearing bright red pants. Not in MT. And the youngish bishopric member who was to give a talk “I had a really late red eye flight last night and my wife just had a baby and so my dad is going to give my talk for me”–loved the willingness to just be himself. And the combined lesson all about the new LDS employment site and LDS family services and a family talked about their interracial adoption–all focused on how the church is to help us with temporal things too.

   Total culture shock when I went to BYU. One of the things that helped was doing a college Honors semester where students came from all around the country. The guys from the midwest and south from privileged families had such similar right wing politics to the privileged men I hat met at BYU that I realized–hey–this is a red state cultural thing, not a mormon cultural thing.

   But it is hard when people do the red state thing at church.

   Comment by cms — June 9, 2010 @ 1:52 pm

4. #1 Last Sunday I was teaching 7/8 yr olds in Provo and class discussion migrated to the persecution of early Christians (it just did, okay!). With the lions and the catacombs, the crucifixions and prison and so on. And one of the kids pipes up- that’s what Obama is doing to America! My how the young have an ear for the crazy talk. I did myself at that age.

   Comment by Moniker Challenged — June 9, 2010 @ 2:00 pm

5. Ahh, the joys of a lay ministry. I do think we have to forgive the ones who perpetuate the nonsense, but I don’t think we should just let it slide either. I don’t know how to change that without being obnoxious at church. How can you call people out without making them feel bad, or getting into an argument. Is it enough to just say to yourself, “That person is full of crap, I don’t believe that for one minute, but I can’t really do anything beyond that”? You do that enough times, and you start to wonder why you are wasting your time at church. I would love a battle plan from experts in the field of psychology or sociology, who could help us formulate a plan. Or whatever field could do that.

   Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 9, 2010 @ 2:01 pm

6. I have a wonderful ward, with many free-thinkers and open-minded folk. I don’t know how I got so lucky, especially considering that we are only a hop, skip or jump (not all three) away from BYU. My last ward was less than a mile away, and BOY was it different. Granted, we still have some of the “standard” Utah Mormon crowd who bear political testimonies, but we have enough of the other where it doesn’t feel too prevalent or overwhelming. I think that often the “bad” culture just speaks louder, and those who don’t like it or support it feel like they are all alone.

   Comment by mindy — June 9, 2010 @ 2:06 pm

7. I have only had one ward so I don’t have a lot of experience of different wards. I wish I did though, because the things said and done in this ward has left me completely uninterested in the church. I think maybe if we move I will try again, but for right now my life is more peaceful if I spend my sundays and weekdays away from mormon culture.

   Comment by LindseyM — June 9, 2010 @ 2:18 pm

8. OMG Lisa you just made me remember this fantastic dream I had last night about accidentally spotting a polygamous wedding in downtown SLC. I grabbed all my friends and was like, “Look! Look! It’s a Utah moment!!”

   Comment by Kerry — June 9, 2010 @ 2:24 pm

9. I was in a ward in semi-rural Arizona that was decidedly backwards. They were all anti-evolution which I thought was absurd because HELLO it’s taught at BYU and it’s a theory!! Some one also compared the space program to the tower of babel — What?!

   A few weeks ago in my current ward the guy teaching our gospel doctrine class implied that it was a bad thing to ask questions. After the time I’ve been spending on this site I couldn’t let that one slide and made a comment to the contrary (and I NEVER comment in class).

   Comment by lowbrow — June 9, 2010 @ 2:28 pm

10. I just returned home (to Montana) from a month on the east coast and in the midwest and it is culture shock all over again. We raised our children in the Seattle area, but moved to MT nine years ago. I would echo IdohoG-ma’s questions? How do we who don’t fit the Intermountain Mormon mold navigate the waters here without offending others and coming off as holier-than-thou? My only strategy has been to withdraw socially from the LDS community, which no one seems to mind, but it’s lonely sometimes.

    Comment by CatherineWO — June 9, 2010 @ 2:29 pm

11. Called out

    I don’t think I necessarily hate ALL Mormon culture. In fact, I’d say some of the things you love Lisa, are what I really loved in my New Hampshire ward. But yes, what I loved most, was the New England culture of acceptance and inclusion itself that even the Utah members had to conform to. It left me free to explore the (few) plain and precious truths that called me back to church in the first place, without worrying about anyone or anything else, or how well I conformed to a cultural norm.

    And I really do feel bad when I rag on Idaho…I think most of my frustration is from my misfortune of moving into a dynamically disfunctional ward. But I’m not really up for moving around the state to see if that’s the only factor or not. In part, I think a lot of it is due to members living on top of each other where I am, and finding myself at odds with such close (and yet spitefully selective) association and hypocrisy. But then I wonder, how would I survive Zion? Would people really be less clueless and excluding then they are now? Hmm…

    The other part is, I was much more conservative politically before I moved here, so I have trouble seeing how politics plays a role (though I don’t doubt it does). I was very happy with the “live free or die” motto of my husband’s home state, so I guess I held on to their autonomous flair in the form of wanting less government interference. I’ve swung liberal on most other areas though, so maybe that’s where some of my discomfort lies. I don’t want everything to boil down to one side or the other. Call me a fence sitter, by I really hate taking sides and staring at anyone else from across a divide, especially if I’m not 100% on board with either side’s definition of their position.

    I’m just so middle-of-the-road on everything right now, including participation in all church “extras” that I just long for the freedom to do things my own way more and not be pushed to the fringe of my congregation for it. Typical Mormon worship styles don’t really jive with me either - but I don’t think they ever have, and that’s part of the problem, so I guess I just hate being stuck by protocol and boundaries, especially when they have no doctrinal significance.

    So what DO I call myself if I want people to know that there are things about this church that I know have truth to them, but that I don’t like all the baggage that years of people living on top of each other has produced, or that my interests and view of the world can be vastly different from those I attend church with?

    Comment by Corktree — June 9, 2010 @ 2:37 pm

12. I live in blue, blue California and our ward is all about the Mormon culture. It drives me nuts, but then I love it too.

    @Idaho Gma - I agree. I do a lot of eye-rolling and shrugging… and leaving my political 2 cents to friends profiles on Facebook. But - then when I do speak my mind — I find a lot of other people who feel the same way - and I want to hug them. I just recently made friends with a new girl (Lindsey… calling you out here because you said you read FMH!) in my ward and it is delightful.

    Comment by Natalie — June 9, 2010 @ 2:42 pm

13. I just try to steer conversations/discussions back with doctrinal statements.

    Man, I miss teaching sometimes.

    Comment by ErinAnn — June 9, 2010 @ 3:01 pm

14. Oh, man. What a great thread. Unfortunately, I’m supposed to be writing a paper.

    I will say that aside from funeral potatoes, I have so much discomfort with the culture. It grates on me. It was always a bit annoying, but then I married a non-member and became so much more aware of the crazy and the random things called doctrine. I think my mom is worried about my membership and finally just told me that it will all get better when I leave the Mormon Corridor. Thankfully, I’m moving to SoCal this summer. Here’s hoping…

    Because a girl can only roll her eyes and make excuses for so long.

    Comment by that1girl — June 9, 2010 @ 3:10 pm

15. I will never live in Utah again.

    Comment by Dan — June 9, 2010 @ 3:13 pm

16. I feel much the same way about Mormon culture as you do Lisa - I hate it, mock it, roll my eyes at it, complain about it…but when it really comes down to it, it’s my home.

    I don’t think I’d last very long in Utah though.

    Comment by Chelsea — June 9, 2010 @ 3:17 pm

17. This is really love hate for me. When I moved to college I really started to question things, but the ward I was in was so small, so closed-minded, that after a while, I just felt really awkward there. I think that the extent of “mormon culture’ really depends on the ward, and the people there in.

    Comment by Jessica @ One Shiny Star — June 9, 2010 @ 3:21 pm

18. This conversation rolls round and round my head daily. I am not LDS, but I have a testimony and I know that this church is true. I love the Book of Mormon, I love Mormon culture, I have met so many incredible people in our ward… but there are some things I dislike and they are so important to me that I just cannot push them aside to follow my heart because my heart is torn!

    I began my investigations right around the time Prop 8 was gaining media coverage and while my heart was saying YES! YES! YES! when I met with the missionaries and read the Book of Mormon, another side of me was upset that this church that I was growing to love was so loudly and publicly against something I feel so strongly about.

    We live right in the middle of a fire engine red state, but my ward is fairly relaxed… although I did overhear someone extolling the virtues of Sarah Palin once and I must admit I gagged a little…

    I’ve heard the arguments about knowing the church to be true and being baptized — the missionaries call me 2+ times per week — but I just cannot do it, not while I am conflicted. I want to be baptized with a clear heart and mind or not at all…

    So I continue to read my Book of Mormon, meet with the missionaries and pray for guidance… or a miracle!

    Comment by Not Quite Mormon — June 9, 2010 @ 3:32 pm

19. I totally know what you mean, Lisa.

    Unfortunately (most of the time anyway), I believe that there is a greater connection between culture and doctrine than we like to think. I actually wrote a post about the Mormon culture war not too long ago.

    Comment by Orwell — June 9, 2010 @ 4:03 pm

20. I grew up in Southern CA and lived in St. George, UT for a few years before relocating back to L.A.

    I remember a bit of culture shock in Utah, but I’ll never forget one day in SS when a sister stood up in class and said, basically, “You know what….I’m all for eternity and families being together forever, but it was tough enough physically for me to have kids here…it was no picnic. So I decided I’m not doing that for eons when I get to the other side. I’ll babysit and help nanny if you need me, but I’m done having kids.” I wanted to go over and kiss her on the forehead….because how many of us are thinking or feeling the same things and we are too afraid to talk about them and share our feelings? We are all so diverse…in how we think and act and react. And that to me is what makes us women (mormon women included) so incredible and incredibly interesting!!

    I’m sure a great deal of us let the whole mormon culture thing work it’s way in to our psyche here and there. I do! I have never made homemade bread, my son doesn’t have his own scrapbook, I have about 5 cans of food storage to my name, I don’t have a garden, I’m not a stay-at-home mom, and I’m just now trying to finish reading the BOM for the first time. I could kick myself over and over about those things but I finally realized that I have to be true to me and who I am, and not worry that I’m not the typical mormon mom that we think of when we talk about mormon culture…and that’s o.k.! I can keep working on things and remember that every day is a chance to do more good, or work on those things that I feel I need to improve. I actually get a kick out of the whole mormon culture thing now and can even smile and laugh about it…instead of beating myself up.

    I struggle myself with some things within the church (Prop 8, plural marriage, etc.) I think a lot of us have or have had questions about different subjects. But ultimately, speaking for myself, I know that the Book of Mormon is true and I know that Joseph saw the Father and the Son; and everything else I just have to take one day at a time. And as I’ve gotten older (42 just around the corner…sheesh!), I’ve come to understand that the Lord and Heavenly Father really do want us to be happy and not bogged down with “Shame on you, you’re not doing this!” and “You should be doing that!” and feelings of inadequacy. I truly believe they just want us to try our best, do our part to help others, and wake up feeling like we are hot mamas in simply trying to endure!

    Best of luck in your journey for answers, NotQuiteMormon. And to the rest of you ladies (and gents)…love yourselves and don’t kick yourselves if you don’t think you’re up to par. You are and we all have to stick together and keep reminding each other of that!!!

    Comment by Perri — June 9, 2010 @ 4:30 pm

21. Not a big fan of mainstream Mormon culture. I had the good fortune to be raised in the Air Force, so I was able to get a different idea of ward/church culture wherever I lived. And we moved every three years. Some places were more conservative, others weren’t. I spent most of my growing-up years in smurf-blue states (I was old enough to remember living in California twice, Washington three times, and Okinawa), but it didn’t seem to matter that much, because we were always pretty close to a base and that usually made the area a bit more conservative.

    We had quite a bit of annoying Mormon culture in my ward in California and my two wards in Washington (one in Tacoma and one in Spokane). Then again we also had some incredibly brilliant people that I continue to look up to, mostly for their brilliance but also for their subtle rejection of cultural norms.

    There’s always going to be a handful of crazies, and a handful of crazy awesomes. Sometimes I got a crazy as my Seminary teacher, which is never fun, but I’ve also had some of the most awesome people as my Mia Maids advisers. Now that I’m in Rexburg, there’s a lot more that annoys me than just ill-researched Sunday School lessons, but I’ve just learned to deal. FMH is my Relief Society.

    Speaking of which: during last month’s Fast and Testimony meeting, a girl my age (19) bore her testimony. I wasn’t really listening until I heard “I know we’re all here to find our eternal companions!” It’s become something of a meme with my roommates and me–whenever we see her, we’re like, “Oh, there goes N. I guess she’s off to find her eternal companion” or something similar.

    Comment by Amanda C — June 9, 2010 @ 4:30 pm

22. I grew up in very blue Oregon. I traveled through a great deal of this country via my husband in the military and got to experience the church in so many wonderful ways. When we moved to Utah two years ago (my first time living here) I was in culture shock and didn’t recognize my own religion. It’s funny, I grew up hearing that the church is the same every where, but quickly learned that was very much not the case. I too experienced testimonies on Obama being the anti-Christ and my visiting teacher stopped visiting after I mentioned I was a feminist. Only two more years here and counting, I do not want my children to raised in the church like this.

    Comment by Flo — June 9, 2010 @ 4:34 pm

23. PS: As for how I was raised, there is some Mormon culture. My mom stays at home, my dad is a big endtimes-preparedness geek, and we do have a wooden board with our family name vinyl’d onto it. We like funeral potatoes and Jell-o with a healthy dose of irony. But my parents raised us to be open-minded, to know that we can do anything we set our minds to, and that we don’t have to be pigeonholed into a prepackaged future based on what everyone else is doing. They raised us according to the church’s teachings, but knew the difference between those and SS hearsay–my dad has been known to scoff about dumb lessons he has heard, and my mom has been known to snark about waste-of-time Enrichment activities.

    Comment by Amanda C — June 9, 2010 @ 4:36 pm

24. One more “Amen” to Idaho G-ma. Sometimes I succeed in subtly begging to differ with the occasional nonsense shared in church meetings while redirecting to doctrine. But lately, I’ve simply been hiding in Primary, where I can focus on the simplest aspects of truth. I’ve been there since before Prop 8, and hope to be there until the conservative backlash is over. I miss Berkeley.

    Comment by Jessica — June 9, 2010 @ 4:46 pm

25. I am reminded of how pervasive mormon culture can be every time I visit our families or friends in Utah. I live in one of those diverse, accepting New England wards and over the past decade have gotten used to the way things are run here. It’s always surprising to visit wards out west where things are so different. In my sister in law’s ward, every single woman in the ward is a stay at home mom (or so they tell me). I can’t even imagine…

    Our ward here encompasses a wide swath of city and suburbs, we have white collar families, blue collar families, multi-generational members, new converts, recent immigrants, and people of many different backgrounds and cultures. My kids learn about diversity and acceptance at church more than anywhere else. If a woman shows up in pants nobody so much as bats an eyelash… By and large the members seem to be wecoming and accepting of anyone who shows up at the door.

    However, most of the utah natives who have moved here have had a very difficult time adjusting. They complain about the lack of similar aged couples with similiar backgrounds, living in similar homes, with similar aged children. It seems that for many Utah mormons, their social structure thrives on the homogeniety that forms in those small, conservative, mormon-dense neighborhoods. If you fit the profile of the perfectish stereotypical mormon housewife, with conservitive political inclinations, then living in the thick of mormon culture could be a satifying experience. For the rest of us, however, it might be a bit stifling.

    Comment by redrider — June 9, 2010 @ 4:55 pm

26. many of God’s beloved children are referred to as ‘the gays’

    I guess I’ve known too many of “the gays” who refer to themselves as “the gays” to understand why this might moniker might be troublesome. Perhaps it was done tongue-in-cheek and I was too slow to note the irony. Certainly it sounds more PC than “the homosexuals.” And it makes more sense than “the SSA’s.” And it’s shorter than more accurate statements, like “those who are sexually attracted to others of the same gender.” Maybe the key is to shorten that last statement to TWSAOSG’s.

    My advice, though, for you, Lisa, is to move away from Meridian and relocate in north or east Boise. Plenty of Mormon democrats over here and I had funeral potatoes just last week at a ward function. Of course, you’ll probably have a bigger calling and smaller primaries and youth programs, but them’s the trade-offs with moving away from strong Mormon communities. (Also the restaurants are better and the people are better looking.)

    Comment by jimbob — June 9, 2010 @ 4:55 pm

27. I’ve only ever lived in the mainstream “mormonville” areas…. maybe THIS (the culture) is what is slowly making it get to the point that I can’t stand church anymore. Then again, I am technically a “cultural mormon” because the main reason I go is for my husband.

    Comment by April — June 9, 2010 @ 5:05 pm

28. I hate sitting in classes at church….but I love being there. I must admit that I find much of the discussion in class rather funny and pathetic most of the time. I knew a man who returned home to Utah after his mission. He let his hair grow long and quit shaving. He then traveled throughout the state, and he told me that he was treated so poorly due to his appearance that he was appalled. Here he was a returned missionary….but I guess people thought he should know better than to NOT look and dress exactly like the GAs. Anyway, he finally ended up in Tucson because he said that was one of the first placed where people didn’t treat him like filth.

    My wife gets on my case every week when I am able to attend for not piping up in class. But I have had my fair share of arguments in class, and they never end well. IdahoG-ma, I don’t think we can have a plan. People tend to be so sensitive about their misconceptions about church doctrine and our cultural as a whole, that they will refute any sort of logic or reason simply because they “feel” that it is incorrect.

    Comment by Keith — June 9, 2010 @ 5:35 pm

29. I’m afraid I can only relate to half of that equation. I can’t think of a single thing about Mormon culture I love. I don’t necessarily hate everything, but none of it do I look fondly upon. Not only do I dislike the conflation of Mormonism with conservative politics, but I’m no fan of any part of Book of Mormon Belt cuisine (my wife is partial to funeral potatoes, but not I), I don’t like the lingo, don’t like the consumerism, etc.

    I’m very fortunate that, though I live in the heart of Mormon Country, my ward is not particularly strong in Mormon culture.

    Comment by Derek — June 9, 2010 @ 5:50 pm

30. I’m curious who cms is because I might possibly know you. And I know exactly how that big difference is, I also used to live in Pittsburgh, and now live in Utah. Huge difference, and I have an incredibly hard time enjoying church like I used to. Freethinking women are considered scary, and everyone preaches about how gays are the worst sinners, and how global warming is not real at all, because God controls the seasons, and people can’t influence the earth. It drives me crazy, and I got all the benefits of my new ward in my old. I’ll get out of Utah soon, so I’m all right for now.

    Comment by Kelpie — June 9, 2010 @ 5:54 pm

31. I wish someone could explain to me why social justice is evil. The whole anti-Obama thing really surprised/shocked/astounded me, because most of what I hear is value-consistant with church, if not with republicanism. Most early church members were democrats, and they believed in governing by material, if not social, equality. I don’t want to threadjack, but I wonder if our consevative brothers and sisters don’t consider Republicanism as the gospel, because it is so darn cultural. I certainly used to.

    Comment by EAH — June 9, 2010 @ 6:10 pm

32. Corktree - I could have written what you said word for word because I identify with you SO MUCH. Thank you for sharing.

    During a Sunday School class, a patriarch commented that its best to stick to the scriptures and literal interpretation rather than personal interpretation and opinion. He said it because a bozo in our ward who was known to say inflammatory statements during Sunday School was yacking off again and I think it kind of pissed off the old Marine.

    I wish I was old so I could say things to people’s faces and not worry about the result like the old patriarch Marine did in my old ward. Maybe the key is that all of us just need to stop caring about what other people think, and just say whats on our minds. Those of us who aren’t Palin lovers and Glen Beckerheads are probably more numerous than we realize. And, maybe the crazi’s won’t sound so loud if we keep talking and drown them out.

    I know thats not a real solution, but man, I am tired of dealing with the culture and I wish there were a simple solution.

    Comment by Emily — June 9, 2010 @ 6:14 pm

33. Your entire first paragraph described my LDS
    life Lisa!! DH and I joined the church in MA while
    I was in my last year of grad school. We then moved to
    Utah for my post doc training. I regret that choice a lot.
    While I can find other liberal friends in my happy science
    world, finding people like that outside of academia has been tough.

    That said, I am not sure the culture you’re describing is wholly Mormon. I have friends who moved to the south after grad school and they feel the same way about life there as I do life here. I think when you have a culture of predominately deeply religious, socially conservative individuals making up the majority, the liberal-bashing, homophobic, racist, unbearable small town mindset is unavoidable.

    Comment by Dancer 007 — June 9, 2010 @ 6:25 pm

34. I like the sense of shared worship.
    I love the music as most of it hails from Celtic / Anglican origins
    I love the emphasis on family and marriage.
    I love reverence and respect for the dead.

    I don’t like the pressure to participate.
    I don’t like the demands it makes on people’s time and resource.
    I don’t like the “exclusive truth” angle.
    I don’t like the biggotry.
    I don’t like the inequality built into the system.
    I’m not wild about the sordid history or the cult of prophet worship….

    I should probably just attend an Anglican church then, aye?

    Comment by PapaKrok — June 9, 2010 @ 7:08 pm

35. I don’t like churches overseas with No possible knowledge of basketball having courts

    I do like our building having a basketball court

    I don’t like gossip

    I do like that within one hour of me leaving church early looking like death warmed over people called with offers for meals and child care and wishes and love

    I don’t like sugar at every possible event

    I do like food at every possible event

    I don’t like some of the organization structure

    I love that we can organize a huge group to serve quickly

    Comment by britt k — June 9, 2010 @ 7:21 pm

36. As one of “the gays,” I’m not fond of the politically-conservative aspects of Mormon culture. But I do love the sense of warm, close family and stability. Of course, it isn’t exclusive to Mormon families, but I do see it very clearly expressed in much of my Mormon extended family.

    Unfortunately, I feel none of that sense of warmth when I look at the homes of Mormons in my neighborhood whom I know to be very hostile to my family, and I feel none of that sense of warmth when the missionaries come to my door and I tell them (AGAIN) that I have no interest in what they are selling because their church has nothing but hostility for me and my family.

    My flag mount out front came out of the wall, so my gay flag is down for the moment, and that seems to be encouraging them to visit my house a bit more often. :sigh:

    There is such an intense contrast between the sense of overwhelming kindliness that I know to be a core value to most Mormons, vs. the intense hostility directed at gay people like myself, and our families. It’s almost like conservative Mormons have no concept of us as being real people at all.

    Comment by Lorian — June 9, 2010 @ 7:33 pm

37. I think I dislike almost everything that generally falls under the umbrella of Mormon culture (carpeted walls, t-shirts under prom dresses, a phobia of bars and people drinking alcohol, etc.). Even the wholesome family focus can make me cringe– I’m a happily single female academic who comes from an abusive home, so talking incessantly about eternal families makes me feel pretty marginalized. I’m not totally averse to any of those things on principle, but as part of a package deal it makes me roll my eyes until my retinas burn. I worry that the very existence of a “Mormon Culture” encourages Latter-Day Saints to be insular and conflate doctrine with traditions. I’m guessing Zion doesn’t look much like Provo, UT, but Provo is practically timeless as places go: how are we ever going to become a radical Zion people if we’re stuck in a comfortable cultural rut that generally espouses conformity, consumerism, and conservatism?

    My east coast ward is no open-minded paradise, but at least people occasionally flinch, argue, or offend each other, which makes Sunday School more bearable and entertaining. Once in a BYU ward, the Bishop’s wife said something about how if we didn’t have men around we’d still be in the Stone Age cooking over fires without the comfort of iPods and dishwashers, and nobody blinked, even when I fell noisily off my chair and started twitching. It would be hard to go back.

    Comment by Stina — June 9, 2010 @ 7:42 pm

38. Oy, Stina. That’s awful. Because no woman EVER invented ANYTHING useful, right??? There goes my dang eye-twitch again.

    Comment by Lorian — June 9, 2010 @ 7:51 pm

39. It’s not a given that Provo wards are going to be red state crazy. My BYU student ward back in the day was fantastic. That was largely due to the influence of John Sorenson, a professor of anthropology and our HC rep, who had a lot of influence over the workings of the ward.

    Then I attended the student ward at the University of Illinois, which was simply fantastic. And the wards I’ve gone to in the Chicago suburbs have also been excellent, if lacking the intellectual firepower of the university-based wards.

    So maybe I’ve just been lucky, or maybe it’s a function of mostly living far away from the intermountain west.

    Comment by Kevin Barney — June 9, 2010 @ 7:58 pm

40. The worst is when you live in a Ward almost as far away from Utah as a Ward can be and still be in the US, and then a large number of Utahns move into your own small, perfectly content ward, and begin to think that they need to band together to totally change things around. It happened to my Maryland ward in the late 80’s. They moved in, almost doubled the ward roster, created havoc, and then all moved away. Fortunately, the most adaptable stayed behind and really added something good to the Ward over the years.

    A wonderful young man from the same MD ward went to BYU. He found a fiancee there amongst the many Utah gals who also attend that school. Her mother called his mother to check into his pedigree! The thought of her daughter marrying only a second generation Mormon was just appalling, apparently.

    Really, I think so many Utahns have no clue about the way they act. No clue at all. They just think they are right, so why even bother to engage in a little self-evaluation.

    Of course, I met many wonderful people in Utah, when I lived there for a while. So you can’t paint with a broad brush. But when Utah Mormons are weird, they are WEIRD.

    Comment by sam — June 9, 2010 @ 8:05 pm

41. Sam
    Really, I think so many Utahns have no clue about the way they act. No clue at all. They just think they are right, so why even bother to engage in a little self-evaluation.

    Of course, I met many wonderful people in Utah, when I lived there for a while. So you can’t paint with a broad brush. But when Utah Mormons are weird, they are WEIRD

    Amen, to that.

    Comment by Keith — June 9, 2010 @ 8:31 pm

42. formatting’s a little off, but the picture is accurrate.

    Comment by Keith — June 9, 2010 @ 8:32 pm

43. and I forgot how to spell accurate.

    Comment by Keith — June 9, 2010 @ 8:32 pm

44. I grew up in South Eastern Idaho. That is more Utah than most of Utah. After college I moved away for 15 or more years. I was pretty much the conservative Utah type Mormon most of that time. I then moved moved back to Utah and saw myself in so much of Utah and I didn’t like it. I used say “How is it that Utahns are so wonderful individually but such jack asses as a group?”

    After five years I moved away again and am pretty much inactive now. I am just happier that way. And though we may think Utah Mormons are different than the rest of the Utah Mormons when it comes to social/political issues it is not true. Many of you may have seen the survey a few months back that pretty much disproved that idea.

    Comment by cyclingred — June 9, 2010 @ 8:33 pm

45. I have to admit, I get defensive when people start bashing on “Utah Mormons” and our culture. Perhaps it’s because I’m apart of it and I don’t like being stereotyped. I don’t care what my life looks like on the outside, you don’t know anything about me I don’t care how many jello salads I bring to ward functions.
    But I also liken it to my feelings on family - I can complain and criticize and make fun, but no one outside of the family is allowed to get away with that. Mormonism is like my family. I’m well aware of it’s quirks and faults and weirdness, but it’s mine and I get uncomfortable when others want to find fault.
    Maybe that’s silly, but it’s how I feel. Plus, I just haven’t run into many of the examples I’ve read about here so it’s not horribly weird to me. I mean, Stina, t-shirts under prom dresses? Wow, not in my part of Utah.

    Comment by Bewitched — June 9, 2010 @ 8:55 pm

46. re: 35
    Because they don’t, Lorian. It seems like some (many?) Mormons live in a very insular subculture where true friendships with people who are different are rare. That’s a two-way street, though.

    Comment by MikeInWeHo — June 9, 2010 @ 8:57 pm

47. T-shirts under nice dresses is something I’ve run into on the east coast, although I (cough) might have worn a shirt under my prom dress when I lived in California. One of the great things about Utah is you can actually find stores that sell prom dresses with sleeves.

    Comment by Stina — June 9, 2010 @ 9:40 pm

48. The biggest thing that I don’t like about the church is how it preaches that it is a world wide church, yet it gears most of its’ conference talks to an American audience. A big turn off

    The second thing is I don’t like the concept of the male leadership always being right.

    Comment by Diane — June 9, 2010 @ 9:40 pm

49. Another thing I don’t like is how everyone asks weather or not your a convert or not. This is the only religion that does that. I was raised Catholic and I can tell you one thing, no one cared if one was a convert or not. Once you were baptized, you a member and it didn’t matter if you had family members who went back to the crusades.

    Comment by Diane — June 9, 2010 @ 9:42 pm

50. I live in a small ward in France. These tensions don’t seem to exist here. The sense of joy and shared heritage overwhelms any political or cultural differences. Several families here have visited Utah, and politics don’t come up when they talk about their experience there. At the same time, no members can understand why anyone could vote republican. To them Obama is still a right wing guy, but one less likely to cause the death of innocent people and the suffering of the poor. The social costs for being a member are high enough that they feel a strong sense of unity with Utah and any non-political aspects of Mormon culture.

    Comment by Paul — June 9, 2010 @ 9:58 pm

51. Thank you, Bewitched (#44), particularly for your analogy to family. That’s very much how I feel about Utah, which is, after all, my home.

    I was really taken aback at BYU by how many out-of-state students took it upon themselves to enlighten poor benighted me about the larger world beyond Utah they took great pleasure in assuming I knew nothing of. Utah bashing can be just another cheap form of self-superiority. Certainly some Utahns move to other states and behave obnoxiously, but it’s equally true that some denizens of other states come to BYU firm in the determination that they will not succomb to the local culture–which they’ve never encountered, but they already know is beneath them.

    (The most delicious irony of all is that BYU culture _isn’t_ Utah culture. Most BYU students don’t come from Utah, and therefore they bring the very culture they disdain with them.)

    Comment by ZD Eve — June 9, 2010 @ 10:02 pm

52. Lorian,

    What on earth is the “gay flag”?

    Comment by ErinAnn — June 9, 2010 @ 10:23 pm

53. All that said, I’m very sympathetic to your ambivalence, Lisa. There are aspects of Mormon culture I adore, and aspects that make me crazy. However, unlike Stina, I’ve come to a peculiar and deep adoration of bar and drinking-phobia, after living for twelve years in a Midwest culture of binge-drinking and fraternity parties and drunk driving and all the delightful side effects of this culture, like date rape, and alcohol poisoning, for example.

    I’m always uncomfortable when Mormons start bashing their own harmless but deeply unfashionable Mormon practices, like Jell-o and funeral potatoes and shirts under prom dresses and denim jumpers and cultural-hall wedding receptions and alcohol-free living. Our embarrassment about them seems to boil down to a shame at our lack of sophistication.

    Let’s be ashamed of our sins, by all means, and let’s be ashamed of importing partisan rancor into Sunday school. But let’s not be ashamed of being unfashionable. On the contrary, according to the Book of Mormon we should be ashamed of our very fashion-consciousness and especially of our finger-pointing at the less fashionable (oh, those embarrassing unwashed masses who wear denim jumpers and T-shirts under their prom dress and, horror of horrors!, _leggings_), a sin which gets lots more play time than, say, the law of chastity.

    (For the record, I’m a big fan of the law of chastity.)

    Comment by ZD Eve — June 9, 2010 @ 10:27 pm

54. I grew up in a stake in Salt Lake that I swear was a direct conduit for SP’s to become GA’s. We had mayors and senators from our stake, too. But members of the democratic party were suspect, even if they were bishops. I have lived in great wards in southern California that were apolitical and nonjudgemental as people struggled to live the gospel as best they could. I’ve also lived in wards in So Cal that were so conservative and judgmental that they are the reason I am a feminist and a liberal. As a young married woman in the ’80’s, I was asked if I needed the name of a good doctor as I was not yet pregnant, I replied, “I have a good doctor, that’s why I’m not pregnant.” I’ve lived in Nevada for 20 years and I can say that my ward here is more uber mormony than any place I’ve lived. The social bubble that many here choose to live inside shocks me… Entire families are so insulated from the real world that when my daughters went out of state to attend college (not to BYU) it was a shock to people in my ward, that my girls are still active, not married and graduated with honors and living a great life. It’s getting to me though as I drag myself to Sunday school and Relief Society and have to hear my brand of politics branded as causing the constitution ” to hang by a thread.” My infernal companion converted to the church in a conservative ward in Los Angeles within our first year of marriage and I feared that he would be turned off completely by the lack of intellectual freedom there… but it was the right place for him to gain a testimony. I know the church is true and I know that I’m so flawed… If only I could let other people be crazy and not have my eye twitch or have to take a walk around the building when they say strange things…

    Comment by Black Sheep's Gray Lamb — June 9, 2010 @ 10:32 pm

55. and, horror of horrors!, _leggings_

    wait! i thought leggings were in?!?!

    Comment by Enna — June 9, 2010 @ 11:17 pm

56. Enna, as far as I can tell, they are! But awhile ago I ran across a Mormon blog post denouncing them in fairly unkind terms.

    I tend to think that in the Mormon world at least the denunciation is generational. Middle-aged women (among whom I must now count myself) remember the last time they were in with a certain shame and can’t quite fathom their return–in the timeless way that the old can never quite fathom the young.

    Comment by ZD Eve — June 9, 2010 @ 11:29 pm

57. I’m afraid I must count myself among those that remember those shameful times

    Luckily I have a super hip sister in law that can point out all the ways I’m not keeping up with fashion trends. She wears leggings, or at least did recently (ish… is my memory going, too? I’m not THAT old) so i figured they must be in fashion!

    Comment by Enna — June 9, 2010 @ 11:38 pm

58. Luckily I have a super hip sister in law that can point out all the ways I’m not keeping up with fashion trends.

    Enna, you’re a lucky woman indeed.

    Comment by ZD Eve — June 9, 2010 @ 11:43 pm

59. While I sometimes regret the distance from Utah that makes participating in snackers impossible, when I read this thread, I am happy to be far away!

    Comment by Chibbylick — June 10, 2010 @ 12:19 am

60. ErinAnn:

    rainbows!

    this:

    http://sporeflections.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/gaypride_flag_1251120c.jpg

    Comment by hero — June 10, 2010 @ 12:33 am

61. Can someone explain the Funeral potato thing to me?

    I’m only up to comment 20 so forgive me if someone has already explained it.

    Comment by bikinimaureen — June 10, 2010 @ 12:55 am

62. @bikinimaureen: Funeral potatoes are a potato casserole dish that is prepared often at LDS funerals, mainly because it’s an inexpensive yet tasty way to feed many people.

    http://www.grouprecipes.com/12808/funeral-potatoes.html

    I remember the day I escaped Utah after my last exam at BYU. I headed to the airport and flew home with giddy laughter the entire way.

    Comment by Molly — June 10, 2010 @ 1:15 am

63. Regarding the comments on clothing in Utah and modesty. Since I am a man it didn’t mean much to me but my wife and daughters constantly complained about styles in Utah. They said Utah carried two types of women’s clothing. Skanchy and old lady.

    One of the terms that really bugged me that a person who has never lived away from Utah wouldn’t understand is “the church”. I think in many ways Utah is harder on Mormons with a more liberal view than on Non-Mormons. Many of my Non-Mormon friends enjoyed it. They said they could do things on Sunday and avoid a lot of crowds.

    I have plank on my platform for when I am King of World in regards to Utah. That is every Mormon who has never lived outside of the area would be required to move away for 5-10 years. The same thing would apply to non-Mos who have never lived away from Utah. Missionary, college and military service does not count. That is not the real world. After that they can all come back. Mormons would learn that a person who drinks now and then is not a social deviant and may not be appalled and even the sight of liquor. The Nons would learn that Utah isn’t the only place that has some quirky liquor laws and laws regarding liquor are not necessarily a Mormon consipiracy.

    I have lived in many states they all have their quirks but Utah does seem to be the quirkiest. The state legislature and politics is the nastiest of all the states where I have lived.

    Comment by cyclingred — June 10, 2010 @ 4:42 am

64. Fascinating and very touching post and comments. Might as well add my own to the mix.

    Mom was born in SLC and attended the Y in the very early ’50s. She met my dad (a non-member) while on a summer internship in Oregon, dropped out of school and eloped to the state capital. (Her father was a bishop — which may, or may not, be surprising!)

    Anyway, my point is that when I was a little boy growing up in Portland (I should add that we were very active in the church my entire childhood and youth), I once asked Mom why we didn’t live in Utah with the other Mormons. She told me (with a forcefulness that surprised me) that she’d vowed to herself that she would never, ever raise a family in Utah.

    I only came to understand her reasoning many years later, when I went off to school at BYU; but, at the same time, it also began to dawn on me that Mom was in many ways a closet feminist.

    Me? I parted ways with the church many years ago — but there are some things I confess to missing about active participation.

    I love how relentlessly nice Mormons are, I love how family focused we are, I think funeral potatoes are God’s true and everlasting food. I like our innocence and relentless hopiness. I love our dedication and our willingness to work hard at stuff. I love the instant sense of community that very often (but not always) greets you upon entering a new ward.

    That sums it up nicely — except for the funeral potatoes, which I never tasted until college. Thanks, fMhLisa, for the post, and thanks to all the commenters!

    Comment by SLK in SF — June 10, 2010 @ 6:45 am

65. I am in one of those glorious East Coast wards, and at least once a quarter, on Fast Sunday, a (different) sweet little old lady will stand up and bear her testimony about the holiness of President Obama.

    *amused*

    I prefer the gospel stripped of as much baggage as possible, and maybe it’s just easier to distinguish the boat from the barnacles outside the Wasatch Front.

    Comment by Katie P. — June 10, 2010 @ 6:59 am

66. I enjoyed you post. I found the made up words a bit distracting. Hopiness, What we that? Does it have something to do with the Hopi Tribe.

    Out here in the diaspora,it is safe to say that the majority of members in most congregations do not have Utah/Mormon corridor roots. Members with pioneer ancestry are not in the majority.

    We joke some about green jello and mushroom soup, but it is not a staple in anyone’s pantry. Funeral potatoes, with all that sour cream and cheese are not particularly healthful . Still there are a few ultra conservative people who believe they represent to “official” church viewpoint. They are the only ones who make a habit of bringing up political subjects.

    The isolation of the Wasatch front makes for a kind of society that encourages people to mix culture with doctrine. This kind of homogeneous culture is not conducive to tolerance or objectivity and is certainly not to a realistic view of the outside world.

    Comment by Claudia — June 10, 2010 @ 8:36 am

67. #40 — My family’s ward in the “mission field” had the same experience!!

    Let me just say this: If I had never gone to college at BYU, I would probably still be a member of the church.

    I guess you could say it was the culture that turned me off so profoundly, but for someone who had never been west of the Mississippi, it seemed more like I was for the first time seeing the ugly underbelly of the beast, the true and undiluted nature of the church in which I had so innocently been raised. I ended up leaving the church shortly after I left the Y.

    I realize the Y is in no way representative of larger Utah, but for the many members for whom the Y is their only experience of the Mormon corridor, it leaves a lasting impression.

    Comment by certainlyuncertain — June 10, 2010 @ 8:52 am

68. I seem to have had a bit of a different experience. I grew up in Houston, with very few LDS my age. I was often the only child in my Primary class, the only girl my age in YW, the only in my grade at school, 6 LDS in my high school (3 of those my sisters). I loved being at BYU and saying “testimony” or “prophet” and knowing the people around me knew what I was talking about. I feel like I got a very good education and met some wonderful people (most notably my husband, who grew up in small UT farming community and gets super tired of Utah bashing). However, when further education took us away right after our graduations, I assumed I would never live there, and said I would never pick Utah as a place to live and raise a family. When the possibility loomed large of just such thing happening, I had to examine why. I realized that some of my reasons had some validity, but some really were rather snobbish. The self-examination was good, and though we ended up staying where we are, I knew some of my prejudices had broken down, and that’s always a good thing.

    Comment by Txgirl — June 10, 2010 @ 8:52 am

69. Txgirl — Your post made me realize, I should have been more complete in mine. I know lots of folks have a great experience at BYU. Mine, unfortunately, was not great. I made some good friends, and took some good classes, but the several bad experiences were so unbelievably bad that they really colored my whole impression of the place, and of the church. I won’t go into detail here, because I’m not a member anymore and I know the primary purpose of this website is to support members who are feminists, so I don’t want to be disrespectful. I just wanted to provide another data point for this discussion.

    Comment by certainlyuncertain — June 10, 2010 @ 9:03 am

70. What bugs me about mormon culture/religion (in no particular order):

    1. The mixing of politics and religion (counting 3 times the SS teacher had brought up healthcare while teaching the lesson)

    2. Cultural Hall receptions with balloons in the basketball nets

    3. Cheesy and poorly composed music

    4. The idea that a “dance” is the best way to meet someone and the most creative and fun thing to do for a singles activity

    5. People who say “fetch”, “flip”, etc… Once I had roommates at BYU that wouldn’t swear and would say the first letter of the swear word instead. So I would hear things like, “What the s f you stupid b! Oh my h!” ANNOYING!

    6. The “competion” that exists among young people within the realm of creative dating

    7. Not referring to the RS, YW, and Primany Presidents as “President” but as “Sister”

    8. Really bad and embarrassing movies made by mormons about mormons and all our mormon wierdness

    9. Lace tablecoths in RS and lifesavers with a paper attached that says “Be a lifesaver: Do your visiting teaching.”

    10. People who think it is okay to be late and start the meeting a half hour later than scheduled. I am an early person and I HATE it when people are late. To me that is soooooo disrespectful.

    I’m sure I will think of more. I echo many of the sentiments already shared.

    Things I love about mormon culture/religion (again in no particular order):

    1. We are service oriented (helping with moves, meals, disaster clean up, etc…)

    2. We believe in education

    3. Conference

    4. Families can be together forever

    5. We are spread all over the globe and will get the same lesson no matter where I go (okay, this can be debated but you know what I mean)

    6. The attention to details when constructing Temples

    7. That women and men pray and speak in meetings and can give lessons and instruction

    8. Revelation is PERSONAL and I can get the answer that is best for me and my circumstances and you can get the answer that is best for you

    9. Donny and Marie ( I admit it - I had the Marie doll when I was a kid)

    10. Home and Visiting Teaching (of course getting it done without “lifesaver” reminders)

    Comment by Hillary — June 10, 2010 @ 9:22 am

71. “So what DO I call myself if I want people to know that there are things about this church that I know have truth to them, but that I don’t like all the baggage that years of people living on top of each other has produced, or that my interests and view of the world can be vastly different from those I attend church with?”
    Oh, I am so with you! I live in Canada, and my most recent battle has been over Scouts. Now, we live in the midst of what is quite literally classified as a jungle, and my son’s cub leaders have him make tinfoil footprints at a cost to me of $90/year. This is, apparently, to help people find him if he gets lost. Well, I took no time to tell him that was not going to work. Anyhow, not only that, but Scout Canada administration is absolutely a gong show to surpass all gong shows…and the fact that I’ve even noticed is, apparently, apostate. My big gripe is the “don’t question it and you’ll be better off” attitude. There is a big difference between the CHURCH and the GOSPEL. We shouldn’t be mistaking our church for our god. So, I don’t know what we call ourselves…but whatever it is, I’m it, too.

    Comment by WoahNellie — June 10, 2010 @ 9:25 am

72. Hillary — RE: #8 on your “Things That Bug Me” list — I hope you’re not talking about the likes of “Singles Ward” — I LOVED that movie!!

    Comment by certainlyuncertain — June 10, 2010 @ 9:49 am

73. I grew up in a small ward where I just didn’t fit in (not in Utah). I love the gospel, but my youth did not revolve around church activities. Also, I would consider everyone in my family a feminist. Maybe I’m crazy, but I always got the sense that I was being judged. It felt as though everyone was trying to save my family, but we were happy. When I moved to another part of the country it was wonderful. I felt like people respected my boundaries and were not constantly pushing their way of life on me. I grew closer to the church and I’m a lot more active.I love my ward. Its nice to be respected and accepted how you are.

    Comment by Ana — June 10, 2010 @ 9:56 am

74. 61: here is my famous (if I do say so myself) recipe for funeral potatoes: http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1335

    66: I make up words a lot, humor, har.

    and on the general subject of Utah bashing, I have to admit, despite this post, I am not a big fan myself. I grew up in Utah, and Idaho isn’t much different. And like I said, I love it here, really love it. I’ve been lucky to have pretty good wards throughout my life, I think. And I have my moments. But for all that I’m a liberal feminist n’ stuff, I am still a Utah Mormon to the bone, I’m cheesy, unsophisticated, often uncomfortable around alcohol, totally naive about many things. Yeah we Utah Mormons have our faults, boy howdy do we, and sometimes the group dynamics are ugly, but mostly we’re good people trying our best, just like everyone else in the world.

    Comment by fMhLisa — June 10, 2010 @ 10:05 am

75. I’ve loved reading about everyone’s experiences. I’ve laughed, I’ve cried…but I can relate to just about everything I’ve read here.

    I think that Mormon culture is everywhere - not just in Utah, but in every single ward we may encounter. As I mentioned in a previous post, I did feel a sense of culture shock when I moved from L.A. to Southern UT for a few years, but there’s no mistaking that I’ve had that same feeling now that I’m back here in Southern CA. I’ve had periods of inactivity and being the “less-active” and I could go on for days about the experiences I’ve had in relation to that. But someone earlier said it best…we’re going to find it in any ward we attend.

    I feel bad, Lorian, that your experience with some if not all Mormons has been a negative one. I myself have many gay friends that I adore and our friendships are really open and trusting. We may have very similar or wildly different views on things but we accept each other for who we are and there’s a great level of respect there. A female couple that used to live next door to me cracked up that i wore “Mormon underwear” and would always point out “my peeps on the street” (aka Missionaries) but would be the first to put people in their place if someone said anything negative about Mormons. If I had one wish for this planet (how cliche’ is this going to sound??) it would be that we could accept each other’s viewpoints and have a great discussion about our differences regardless of if we came to an agreement on the issue or not. How much nicer it would be if we could walk away from meetings or experiences feeling enlightened or educated, instead of angry or frustrated because we haven’t all come to the same conclusions about life and love, etc.

    Speaking for myself, there are always going to be people who are over the top; whether it’s with religion, politics, sports, etc. I could get riled up daily over things I see and hear between people, but I have to remember to “Don’t sweat the small stuff cause it’s all small stuff” so to speak and just worry about me Am I the kind of woman my mom would be proud of? Growing up, she would be the first to tell me…”Remember who you are and what you stand for.” That doesn’t just mean as a Mormon, but as a human being. Do I really love and appreciate people for who they truly are, without judgement? Am I making a difference to someone or something? I sure hope so, or Cassie would be so disappointed.

    Comment by Perri — June 10, 2010 @ 10:07 am

76. I’m going to go way out there and agree with Paul (#50), as well. It seems weird to me to have anyone think that Obama is a liberal, although he is much more so than the alternative…I cannot even count the number of times I have been belittled by a “well-intending” American Mormon on the absolute sinfulness of socialism (ugh).(And it’s true-the majority of them were from Utah…but it seems that most of the move-in’s from the States are from Utah, so that’s not really a fair representation.)
    I think that the church would be able to hold a lot more of its converts if it didn’t insist that we all act classicly and conservatively american. It’s what pushes us “weirdos” into the blog closet and makes us feel like outsiders in what should be the most tolerant church on earth.

    Comment by WoahNellie — June 10, 2010 @ 10:09 am

77. also Hillary — RE: #8 on your “Things That Bug Me” list — I loved the version of Pride and Prejudice set at BYU, I think I had every one of those girls as roommates and I have several times wanted to stand up in fast & testimony meeting and throw my scriptures at the person speaking!

    Comment by lowbrow — June 10, 2010 @ 10:12 am

78. Those Mormon movies wouldn’t be so bad if they weren’t sold in drug stores where non-Mormons might accidentally get their hands on them! And alright, alright, to all you denim-jumper aficionados out there: my thrift store wardrobe doesn’t really give me much latitude to point a mocking finger at tacky LDS fashion trends, which certainly don’t constitute sins against God.

    I think the more important concern of a “culture” is that being surrounded by Mormons– anywhere, not just in Utah– might actually impair one’s ability to live the gospel according to the scriptures. You’re surrounded by good people, so you figure that on average their lives must represent a Cliff Notes version of ideal gospel living. Even though there are scriptures about eating meat sparingly, caring for the earth, and taking care of the needy as much as our means allow, when people look around and see ubiquitous EQ BBQs, a lack of recycling bins in church buildings, and the stake president’s giant vacation home. It’s easy to conclude that the scriptures must not REALLY be requiring any serious efforts to eat healthfully, recycle, live modestly or give to the poor.

    (That last point is a personal peeve! Last year we had a Sunday School lesson on service, and everyone was talking about how church gives us such great opportunities for service through church callings, etc., which sets us apart from other churches. When somebody finally mentioned helping the poor since we live in a really urban area, most people agreed that it was better to donate money to fast offerings and let the church deal with it, since beggars on the street might misuse it. My friends of other faiths regularly volunteer at local homeless and refugee shelters as a major part of their church membership. Let’s stop pretending we have nothing to learn from anybody.)

    Comment by Stina — June 10, 2010 @ 10:29 am

79. “….in what should be the most tolerant church on earth.” Amen, WhoaNellie, amen.

    And Stina, great point re: the “beggars on the street.” I remember being in SS one day and the subject came up on helping the poor and needy. I can’t believe how heated it got - one sister commented that she never gave to the homeless because “They will just spend it on drugs and alcohol.” Just when I was about to stand up and pitch a fit, my friend Craig got up and said, “You know what…the Savior himself walked among sinners of all kinds. Do you think for one second he stifled himself because of preconceived ideas about people he came into contact with? He always extended love and compassion and complete kindness and goodness to every creature he encountered.” He went on to say how we could use the spirit to guide us (i.e. if it was a dangerous situation, etc.) but his point was that you give - and any action done with what has been given is on the receiver, and that we would all be better people if we just tried to be more like Christ…period. Hallelujah, Craig!
    There’s room for improvement everywhere…and heaven knows I gots to start with myself.

    Comment by Perri — June 10, 2010 @ 10:48 am

80. Soooo I’ll play.

    Grew up in the ghetto. When the KC school district had its infamous/disastrous desegregation busing plan, my (very strict and controlling) parents scrimped to send me to a private school.

    Southern Baptist. Nine years.

    So I always say, if it weren’t for the Baptists, I’d have left the church. When *I* went to BYU, it was The Most Liberal place I’d ever been. It was culture shock of the pretty awesome kind, actually. Pants! To class! OMG! OMG you have MARTIAL ARTS as a PE class?!?! *GASP* YOU TEACH THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION???

    /squee

    And here I am now *koff42koff* and my affection for church culture knows no bounds because I’ve lived in another religious culture (which actually is comprised of several subtypes).

    I live in one ward, but go to another because of intraward politics, not because of whatever political teachings may or may not go on in Sunday School. Frankly, I don’t pay much attention. I’m usually in the back with a pen and paper chasing down plot bunnies.

    I guess my only point is…

    It could be worse.

    Comment by Moriah Jovan — June 10, 2010 @ 10:52 am

81. RE #72 & #78

    I will admit that the first “Singles Ward” movie made me laugh quite a bit because really, we must laugh at ourselves and all our quirks and the thought, “that is soooo true”, entered my mind numerous times while watching it. But I remember seeing it a few years after I had seen it the first time and found that it just wasn’t as funny as I had originally thought. The Pride and Prejudice movie was okay I guess - better than a lot of the other crap that has been produced. The best part was the hot, Mr. Darcy character who I would be willing to make out with at any time. But pay no mind to my movie opinions because I am really picky when it comes to what I will watch and tend to enjoy more serious and dramatic films.

    Oh, and add the whole “People who think Polygamy is okay and constantly defend it” thing to my list of things that bug me. I realize there are many members whose ancestors were a part of that in the past and so it is an important thing for them but I personally have never been able to accept that the practice was acceptable and HF and I will have a long chat about it someday.

    Comment by Hillary — June 10, 2010 @ 11:01 am

82. Moriah — Certainly, it could be a LOT worse…!! I guess what it comes down to is that how you will respond to BYU, Utah, or any other culture depends on the context created by your past experiences. There are lots of things I love about Utah and church culture, which is why I really enjoy watching “The RM,” “Singles Ward” and other such movies; I think it’s very healthy for any “peculiar” group to be able to laugh at themselves, but to do it in celebration of their uniqueness, as well.

    Comment by certainlyuncertain — June 10, 2010 @ 11:05 am

83. Side note about “The Singles Ward” - I always thought it was ironic that in a movie that is ALL ABOUT making fun of Mormon culture, the main character’s pivotal moment is when he realizes that it’s not OK to make fun of Mormon culture and he repents of all his mocking.

    I am not a fan of Utah bashing either, although I kinda sorta understand where it comes from. I’ve known members from Utah who move into the “mission field” who bring with them a sense of superiority and actually say things like “I don’t know how can anyone raise a family outside of Zion.” They aren’t the norm, but they exist. Our feelings get hurt too when we’re reminded that the center of the church is not where we live. So we strike back by making fun of Jello and denim jumpers and poofy bangs.

    Comment by Chelsea — June 10, 2010 @ 11:12 am

84. Lisa, I love the op! I feel so similar sometimes.

    I don’t really consider myself Mormon right now but I still go to church meetings fairly often with my best friend. I get slightly annoyed to rather angry nearly every time from the comments that people make.

    Most recently, a guy was giving a talk about virtue. He blamed all of our (America’s I think? not sure who he was talking about) non-virtuous behavior for natural and human cuased disasters, then proceded to include — and I quote — “the invasion of America by Mexico” in his list of disasters plagueing the earth.

    UGHHH. In sacrament meeting!!

    Comment by Theolina — June 10, 2010 @ 11:15 am

85. Yes, you can love it and hate it. I know I do. It’s probably why I’m so screwed up. I should sue. I should sue Utah and the church and take you all to the Bahamas.

    Comment by annegb — June 10, 2010 @ 11:17 am

86. I love to visit Utah. I am ambivalent about BYU. So much good. So much that doesn’t matter that parades as good. One of my married daughters stayed in Utah Valley. I attend her ward a time or two each year. DH and I usually come out with a pretty funny culture clash story. Last year our granddaughter told him his knee shorts were immodest.
    I cite King Benjamin to the haters of the poor. They sometimes get red faced, but there is no comeback for anyone who claims to believe the BoM. I am on foot in the hood every day because I am too cheap to pay triple for close parking. I am on speaking terms with some scary looking guys who know I see them as people. I never carry money. I always carry McDonalds gift certificates for them. They know I want to help them. I budget $25 a week for them and I consider it a better buy than parking.

    Comment by Karen — June 10, 2010 @ 11:38 am

87. Right there with you, Hillary, on the whole polygamy thing!

    Comment by Perri — June 10, 2010 @ 11:43 am

88. I think the denim jumpers are a direct result of not being able to wear pants to church, especailly, RS meetings not on Sunday, and for VT, which I’m pretty sure violates the torture statutes set by the Geneva Convention. I think every male leader should prepare and serve a funeral meal while wearing a nice church dress and shoes. Let us wear pants, and the jumpers would disappear in a heart beat. Just sayin’!

    Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 10, 2010 @ 11:50 am

89. Another thing I don’t like is how people can use Fast and testimony meeting and make it into a political campaign speech. I swear, If I ever go back on a fast and testimony and someone uses it a means to lecture me on what my politics should be I will get up and specifically state. that Politics are not for fast and testimony meetings.

    Comment by Diane — June 10, 2010 @ 11:53 am

90. annegb (#85), I think you could make that a class-action suit and include all of us love-it-and-hate-it-but-can’t-leave-it Mormons. The Bahamas, ahhh–does sound lovely.

    Comment by CatherineWO — June 10, 2010 @ 12:16 pm

91. I hope I am not guilty of threadjacking but I would like to state that I did enjoy the movie “The Best Two Years” and I liked “Saints and Soldiers” for the most part too.

    @ Perri -

    Regarding Utah bashing - I am slightly guilty of it. And not all of Utah is bad - it is pretty, clean, and I sure could go for a Cafe Rio chicken burrito served Enchilada Style right now or even a Kneaders Turkey Sandwhich. But hey, I don’t have to live anywhere I don’t want to and what works for some people doesn’t work for me and vice versa. I loved my BYU experience but after that was anxious to get back to my beloved blue state roots in Oregon. Now I have ended up in very red Texas and I don’t know if anyone else on fmh is in the Houston area but I find it to be a fairly purple city which I like quite a bit.

    Comment by Hillary — June 10, 2010 @ 12:17 pm

92. IdahoG-ma….still laughing after reading your “Geneva Convention” comment. Priceless!

    Oh my word, thank-heaven for fMh.org. Where have you been all my life?!

    Comment by Perri — June 10, 2010 @ 12:26 pm

93. Oh, and Diane (#89) I hear you sister! F&T Meeting shouldn’t be about someone’s hernia surgery either. giggle Again, all comes with this whole Mormon culture thing, right? Funny.

    Gotta get back to work - crud!

    Comment by Perri — June 10, 2010 @ 12:28 pm

94. I am with the poster who said all the good Utah LDS should be required to come out into the other areas , help us out for a few substantial years, and see the other side or ONE of the other sides of Mormonism. We need you!

    I loved BYU, pretty much all the way( as a convert of 1 1/2 years). I got a great education with people all over the world pitching in their tithing pennies to subsidize me. I don’t take that lightly. I told my own kids I would love for them to go, but only if they really wanted it, and honored the opportunity.. I sort of resent people who take a sacred spot at the Y ( yes, I mean that! ) when they really don’t have the heart for it, when so many others whose lives it would really bless cannot come… Whose only years in Utah are the Y years. ( And to me, BYU culture is NOT Utah culture..although they have overlap) It is a great training ground with many gifts to take with you .

    My kids went. They thrived. Met their spouses there. They were surprised at some of what they saw from those who obviously…didn’t appreciate it.

    I did love that I felt that most of the students were validating me in my new found faith. Coming from attending a state party school…to feeling a part of the sober and faithful crowd was so fun and comforting and sustaining for me. I think many of my friends loved the fact I was a convert, and ’sacrificed’ for a gospel they often took for granted. I won’t go into what all that meant. I had a blast.

    However, though I love to visit Utah, and often toy with the idea of ‘winding up back there’ as too many do…when I am there for about 2 weeks…I need to get back out.

    BUT that doesn’t mean it is not amazing, and also we are so grateful for the strength there…the cream of the crop folks that truly are still the backbone and worker bees and good good valiant smart giving folks…and that they send their sons and daughters out as missionaries ( and themselves too! ) Obviously Utah is a garden spot for producing amazing Mormons! And I believe it IS a wonderful place to grow up and live out your life as well. Some of my favorite people ( and in-law families) are there.

    For myself, and I actually think it is a weakness of mine…after awhile I just feel…I might not have to defend my faith there enough to keep me strong…I won’t stand out and then I might not stand up for things the way I MUST do out here …I might get complacent. I might get jaded. I might get critical. I might get lazy.I might get frustrated and out of patience.

    I might definitely take it all for granted.

    ( And there are things said in church classes there that …well…I have to speak up…while we might be making generalizations in this post, that , I think it what is very easy in the Valley. I guess we all do it. WAIT, that is a generalization! I guess most people? some people? make them. Anyway, they bug me. )

    And sometimes I want to shake some people from the Valley and say “DON’T YOU KNOW WHAT GREAT OPPORTUNITY YOU HAVE HERE!?! ” Such easy access to so many amazing things…everything a mormon could want, RIGHT THERE! ( I am talking genealogy, food storage, workshops, service ops, …and ok, walking down the street to do the 3 ladies on your vt route! ) I think BYU TV has been salve to me though. I can now hear all kinds of offerings that before only people closer to the center spot could hear. I feel closer with the ability to have that if or when I want it.

    Active members from Utah who have moved into our ward for any period of time have , for the most part, been a big blessing. They know how to participate and help and take on HT and VT routes, although they are surprised how many we have to have and how far we go to visit. Many of them have expressed that their time away from Utah was the strengthening of their families. some have probably been a little exasperated with some things we LACK. When we are a bit boiled down to basics. Too few people do too much of the work here. I don’t like that difference AT ALL. I could list many things I don’t particularly like about being in the mission field, too, I am sure.

    I am sure some who come here from more lds populated areas were disappointed in our lack of overscheduling. We don’t have ALL THAT going on all the time.

    anyway. I love the culture…but some of the things some people call out as the culture , I don’t think ARE the TRUE culture. Some things are an individual’s expression of the culture, or their understanding or misunderstanding…..but I would try to just keep that tied to the individual and not the whole group. Still…one bad apple…can make for an untasty pie.

    OK, I gotta go. I am making funeral food. ( none of the cultural Mormon ones, I am afraid…)

    Comment by Melissa P. — June 10, 2010 @ 12:42 pm

95. As a fairly new move-in to our part of the Mormon corridor, I received a phone call asking if I had registered to vote. In all of our moving craziness, I hadn’t taken the time to do that yet. I was brought over the papers and looked down, surprised to see that “Republican” was already checked. She noticed my surprise and said “The Republican box is already checked. I just assumed that everyone around here is Republican.” I think she was a bit stunned when I said “Yeah, I’m going to need some white out.”

    As I told my husband, at least THAT conversation is over with.

    Comment by On the outside looking in — June 10, 2010 @ 1:02 pm

96. Outside…see , that is just crazy. And I don’t know quite know who to attribute it to, because it would definitely NOT be condoned by THE church.

    Comment by Melissa P. — June 10, 2010 @ 1:12 pm

97. re: warmth/friendliness

    I wonder if the warmth and friendliness which some appreciate in the Mormon culture can accurately be considered part of Mormon culture? In my (admittedly fairly limited) experience, people everywhere tend to be friendly, regardless of region, religion. I think that’s a general trait of humanity, not something specific to Mormon culture.

    And Lorian raises an important point (re: 36). To the extent that friendliness is part of our culture, it is very conditional.

    (Sadly, Lorian, I think there are many within the Mormon community who don’t think of “the gays” as real people. Gays have been so used as political and social boogiemen that they are now almost completely dehumanized for many who don’t personally know any homosexuals–or at least, don’t know that they know any homosexuals.)

    re: 45

    But I also liken it to my feelings on family - I can complain and criticize and make fun, but no one outside of the family is allowed to get away with that.

    I get that. But most of us here are “family.” So we get to complain and criticize, right?

    And what if someone converts just for the material?
    

    re: 53

    I’m always uncomfortable when Mormons start bashing their own harmless but deeply unfashionable Mormon practices…[snip]…Our embarrassment about them seems to boil down to a shame at our lack of sophistication.

    For me, it is more a reaction to the ethnocentrism of our culture. Loving funeral potatoes is fine; looking down upon any dinner which is not based on meat-and-potatoes is a bit silly. Being clean shaven, well-shorn, and dressed in a white shirt is fine; assuming anyone who is not so groomed is of questionable character is a bit presumptuous. Having a reception in the cultural hall is fine; not even considering other options or presuming receptions elsewhere are pretentious is less so. Loving life in the BofM Belt (which, as several have suggested, is not restricted to Utah, but is also firmly in S Idaho, parts of Nevada, some of So Cal, parts of W Wyoming, etc) is great; calling Utah “Zion” and elsewhere “The World” or “The Mission Field” is a bit myopic. It’s that insular, self-congratulatory nature to so much of Mormon culture that I dislike.

    re: 54

    “infernal companion…” LOL! love that!

    re: 65

    I prefer the gospel stripped of as much baggage as possible, and maybe it’s just easier to distinguish the boat from the barnacles outside the Wasatch Front.

    Great metaphor, Katie, and so true. It’s much less easy to take those cultural things for granted or to blend culture and Gospel when there is a more diverse blend of culture in the community.

    Comment by Derek — June 10, 2010 @ 1:16 pm

98. ” I think she was a bit stunned when I said “Yeah, I’m going to need some white out.”

    Hilarious!

    Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 10, 2010 @ 1:41 pm

99. We need a Like button (like facebook) for comments like the one in #95!!

    Comment by lowbrow — June 10, 2010 @ 1:52 pm

100. #99~like.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 10, 2010 @ 2:08 pm

101. I too experienced testimonies on Obama being the anti-Christ..

     Then, why Have LDS General Authorities met with him or his wife on several occasions?

     Gays have been so used as political and social boogiemen that they are now almost completely dehumanized for many who don’t personally know any homosexuals

     Also a good point. It’s interesting that some of the Politicians that some LDS members hold almost as divine beings, like Bush & Cheney, are not as against the LGBT community in private conversations that have come to light as what their public image is made to be. Go figure.

     Then, what about the LDS statement supporting the non-discrimination ordinance in Salt Lake some months ago? Why aren’t the anti-gay types in Utah calling LDS Leaders to repentance for favoring that ordinance?

     Comment by Mike H. — June 10, 2010 @ 2:17 pm

102. My current Book of Mormon class consists mostly of my teacher 1) implying that society as we know it will collapse if gays have the right to get married, 2) demonizing gays while assuring us that he is a tolerant person, 3) saying in no uncertain terms that women should not work outside the home, and 4) saying “Now, I don’t want to get too political…”

     I kind of signed up for this class so I could, you know, learn about the Book of Mormon.

     Shockingly, though, he is the exception to the rule here–most of my school, church, and social experiences since coming to Rexburg have been overwhelmingly positive. I figure I can deal with one crazy and come out with my testimony intact… especially because my AWESOME American Foundations class keeps me sane. I wouldn’t want to live here for the rest of my life (Washington calls to me) but I don’t hate it as much as some. I don’t even hate it as much as I thought I would before.

     Comment by Amanda C — June 10, 2010 @ 2:55 pm

103. It’s too bad we all don’t live on the same block. Can you imagine how fun “Bunco Night” would be?!! hehe

     Comment by Perri — June 10, 2010 @ 3:15 pm

104. @40

     Sam my brother experienced the same thing only in Scotland. His mother-in-law couldn’t understand why any mother would name her son Louis.

     Comment by Diane — June 10, 2010 @ 3:38 pm

105. Perri #102 -
     

     1) implying that society as we know it will collapse if gays have the right to get married,

     You can tell him that my wife and I have been married now for 2 years (together for almost 20), and society as we know it still exists. Ticking right along, even.

     Comment by Lorian — June 10, 2010 @ 3:41 pm

106. New fMh tagline:

     And you thought Relief Society was judgmental.

     It’s hard to take this post seriously about “judgyness” when there is so much negativity and judgment of others on this site. A double standard? Yes.

     Comment by Nancy — June 10, 2010 @ 3:44 pm

107. Derek #97 -
     

     (Sadly, Lorian, I think there are many within the Mormon community who don’t think of “the gays” as real people. Gays have been so used as political and social boogiemen that they are now almost completely dehumanized for many who don’t personally know any homosexuals–or at least, don’t know that they know any homosexuals.)

     Exactly true, Derek. And of course, it’s important for us gay people to remember that the only way (conservative) LDS, as well as other conservative people CAN know that they know any gay people is by us taking the risk and putting ourselves out there to “get known” (hopefully not in the Biblical sense…).

     It’s scary when you live in an environment which is heavily hostile towards you (as I found out I did when Prop 8 came around), but it’s kind of like getting in a cold swimming pool. You just have to jump in and get it over with.

     I don’t know that I changed any of my neighbors’ minds when I went to their doors and introduced myself and offered to talk with them about their opinions and beliefs about gay people and equal marriage, but at least I gave them something to think about and took away their right to believe that “the gays” are a bunch of disco-dancing fornicators who live far, far away, and that no one they know is gay.

     Comment by Lorian — June 10, 2010 @ 3:50 pm

108. Nancy #106 - Are you feeling judged for some reason? Why?

     Comment by Lorian — June 10, 2010 @ 3:50 pm

109. Corktree

     Where in new hampshire are you from? I bet you might know her, I can imagine that there would be to many Mormons in New Hampshire.

     Comment by Diane — June 10, 2010 @ 3:56 pm

110. Hey Lorian! I wasn’t the one who experienced the teacher mentioned in #102, but if I was and in his class, I’d be in trouble as I (a) work outside the home and (b) love my gays. LOL Oooh, I’d be in twuuuuble with him, I think. With that being said, though, I do love the church…I just keep reminding myself that there’s always “one in every class” who stirs things up a bit (insert eye roll) and gives me a chance to take a deep breath and practice patience. Heaven knows I too need a lot of work….I’m constantly kicking my own butt to stay in gear.

     I am a firm believer in everyone being able to have their own ideals, beliefs, and pursuits and being able to express them….sheesh, it’s what this country was built on, right? It’s a shame that we get so tied up in too many of the particulars. I wonder why that is? Is it Mormon culture? Is it nature/nurture? Or a combination of those things?

     Some of my most enriching relationships have been with non-members, but also with Mormons…the ones knee deep in Mormon culture, even. I think the ones that are the most rewarding are those where each of us can just be ourselves, agree to disagree on certain things, and where each of us feels that we have each other’s backs, so to speak. It’s that simple. Can I call you in the middle of the night if I’m feeling too fat (but bring over a pint of Ben and Jerry’s anyway)? Do you know you can count on me if you need something, anytime, anyplace? Those kinds of things.

     And so happy to have you in our society, Lorian! Let’s all keep on ticking…

     Comment by Perri — June 10, 2010 @ 4:03 pm

111. Whoops! Sorry, Perri. I meant Amanda. Just got back from the gym and I’m a little loopy from exhaustion.

     Comment by Lorian — June 10, 2010 @ 4:09 pm

112. My Mum came up with the solution. She says, “We’re LDS. Mormons are weird.”

     Comment by C. — June 10, 2010 @ 4:10 pm

113. #112~like.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 10, 2010 @ 4:22 pm

114. Personally, I find the attempt to get rid of “Mormon” (and the weird) in us problematic. For instance, when the church does cultural and charity work as “LDS”, many people don’t associate that work as having been done by “Mormons”. I’ve heard of more than one instance of people saying things like, you LDS are so helpful, not like those weird Jehovah’s Witnesses or those crazy Mormons.

     Plus, I feel like it’s just one more attempt to distance ourselves from our history. Yeah, our ancestors were weird polygs, but we’re not doing ourselves any favors stuffing it under the covers. And we’re not doing our ancestors any favors either, especially not our foremothers who sacrificed their lives to Mormonism, only to be written out of our history. I think it sucks that we try to hide them because we want to be seen as more mainstream. We need to get over ourselves.

     Comment by fMhLisa — June 10, 2010 @ 4:34 pm

115. Great points, Lisa. It is what it is. We can’t escape the culture and all of those little idiosyncrasies that give us something to chat or giggle about here and there (and we all need that)!

     And we sure need to remember those who truly did suffer and were horribly persecuted to give us what we now have; every bit of green jello, big bangs, crazy F&T meetings, funeral potato and life-saver quote filled RS lessons…all of it. When I think of the pioneers who sacrificed everything to build what we now have (as crazy as it can be sometimes), it brings tears to my eyes. I don’t have pioneer history in my family, but you can best believe when I get to “the other side” that I will kneel in reverence for those who have paved the way before me.

     Comment by Perri — June 10, 2010 @ 4:53 pm

116. We need to get over ourselves.

     The church apparently has, at least to some extent, because the website one goes to get basic doctrinal information is mormon.org. I think they’ve/we’ve thrown in the towel on that one. It was, as Lisa points out, a bad idea in the first place.

     It is healthy for me to read these comments. I have much to be grateful for. I’ve lived in the same place for 30 years (what passes for inner city in Denver), the ward boundaries have been sliced and diced a few times, but it is still the same people living in the same places, however chopped. We’ve always had a very wide spectrum of political beliefs in the ward (a real socialist for a while) and, out of respect and courtesy for each other, for many years, we are sensitive about it and almost never bring it up anything political. It isn’t that hard to avoid. No reason, really, to touch the hot stove. We still talk about lots of pointless stuff, but it isn’t political.

     One could get a flavor for our ward by just walking through the parking lot and seeing the rough parity in bumper stickers. I get to go to church without all the garbage that many of you are dealing with. It’s really nice.

     Our ward area also include the most concentrated obvious area of gay residents in the city, so nearly everybody in the ward has gay neighbors, friends, and coworkers. It is just part of life where we live and so it is never raised in a political sense and there is no hostility. In fact, those in leadership are all aware of several inactive gay members in the ward with whom we try to at least stay on friendly terms.

     Comment by Jim Donaldson — June 10, 2010 @ 5:10 pm

117. I live in a newly developed area (in Utah), and I know there are some women who don’t feel comfortable coming to RS, because they feel like they don’t fit it with “all the other women”.

     This bothers me in the same way that comments about Utah mormon’s bothers me.

     Not all women in RS are the same. Not all Utah Mormon’s are the same. The more I get to know my neighbors, the more I can see that even if they look similar on the outside, there are a lot of people who don’t “fit the mold”.

     There are things I struggle with about mormon culture, but sometimes I think we make it seem worse than it is, by assuming that people are a certain way when we haven’t bothered to get to know them.

     Comment by Alliegator — June 10, 2010 @ 5:31 pm

118. Certainly some Utahns move to other states and behave obnoxiously, but it’s equally true that some denizens of other states come to BYU firm in the determination that they will not succumb to the local culture–which they’ve never encountered, but they already know is beneath them.

     Amen. I heard this from my much more highly sophisticated California and New York roommates. I also saw the other end of the spectrum where students arrived at BYU from out of state and were shocked to discover that not only are there bars in Zion, most retail establishments are open on Sunday. They would then proceed to call the entire state to repentance via The Daily Universe.

     I’m a proud Utah native, but happy in my current home in Colorado. And I would never choose to move back, but not for the reasons expressed here. What was just too hard and painful for me was the constant tension between extremists in the Mormon and Non-Mormon populations. I remain convinced that most Utah residents are generally tolerant of each others’ beliefs, but the noisy few make life extra difficult for everyone else. If it’s not the hyper self righteous Mormons smugly proclaiming their absolute certainty that they have a corner on all truth, it’s the enormous-chip-on-the-shoulder non-Mormons ranting about how every possible inconvenience in their lives is directly attributable to a meddling Church conspiracy. I am so glad to be away from that.

     Still, I remember fondly the many kind people, the funny cultural quirks and the beautiful landscapes. So am I proud of my heritage? Oh my heck, you betcha I am.

     Comment by Sheila — June 10, 2010 @ 5:35 pm

119. @ Lorian 105:

     Haha, I totally should. I can imagine how his eyes would start to bulge!

     I didn’t have the guts to call him out on the “women not working” thing, but someone else did. I wanted to give her a big hug right in the middle of class.

     Comment by Amanda C — June 10, 2010 @ 5:57 pm

120. fmhLisa (#114): I totally agree. While I am totally opposed to polygamy and think it a totally misguided practice, I am horrified and ashamed at how many in the church treat them. Those who sacrificed so much to live ‘the practice’ have been thrown under the figurative bus– we try to ignore them, make light of them, shuffle them under the run, and make fun of them when all else fails. We have trivialized the enormous sacrifices they made to do what they felt was commanded of them by God. And now all we can do is pretend they were some small weird group that we don’t want to own? Shameful.

     Comment by LuluBelle — June 10, 2010 @ 6:37 pm

121. @ 109, Diane - are you referring to your bro’s MIL? We lived in Merrimack, right down near the southern border to Mass.

     Comment by Corktree — June 10, 2010 @ 7:06 pm

122. @121, yes my brothers’ mother-in- law, mostly because the bathroom in Scotland/ England is referred to as the Lou and his name is Louis and we were of all things (gasP) Italian roman catholic.

     My friend lives in Northfield, I think that’s north of you so, its’ probably out of your stake

     Comment by Diane — June 10, 2010 @ 7:27 pm

123. Sheila said, “it’s the enormous-chip-on-the-shoulder non-Mormons ranting about how every possible inconvenience in their lives is directly attributable to a meddling Church conspiracy. I am so glad to be away from that”.

     That makes me very uncomfortable too, when I am in Utah…so much contention and controversy and anti stuff going on…and I start to think…well, the Mormons made that place bloom as a rose and it has attracted many people there, and then the people fuss, while benefiting from all the rosiness and bloomingness .

     Confusing. And then you have the Mormons in the area fussing about the other Mormons…and some of us out of area folks fussing about it all. OK, I am ready to stand down.

     Our funeral today was for a black sister’s mom. The funeral was at one black church, and the dinner that a very few of us RS sisters served to them, was in another black church’s cultural hall. It was awesome. Very few had any idea why we were there and who we are, and that is quite alright. The sermon was enjoyed by all.

     The one man did mention that the big cooler we were serving ice water out of -they use for tea. Whoops.

     Comment by Melissa P. — June 10, 2010 @ 7:35 pm

124. oh, and Karen, you are one of my new heroines. I like your priorities.

     Comment by Melissa P. — June 10, 2010 @ 7:40 pm

125. Our funeral today was for a black sister’s mom. The funeral was at one black church, and the dinner that a very few of us RS sisters served to them, was in another black church’s cultural hall. It was awesome. Very few had any idea why we were there and who we are, and that is quite alright. The sermon was enjoyed by all.

     Now I’ve got those goosebumps that the gospel inspires.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 10, 2010 @ 8:37 pm

126. The one man did mention that the big cooler we were serving ice water out of -they use for tea. Whoops.

     Comment from a LDS coworker at one place:”If I made the coffee here, I’d probably ruin it”. I ruined the coffee at one place I worked, where I was asked to make it once.

     Along this line, I do know there’s some Wasatchites(tm), who feel there are no good people outside of the Church. Ouch. Then, they wonder why non-LDS types get a chip on their shoulder.

     Comment by Mike H. — June 10, 2010 @ 8:59 pm

127. “I do know there’s some Wasatchites(tm), who feel there are no good people outside of the Church. ”

     I don’t know Mike….that sounds so extreme. So SO SO extreme…because everyone has seen many good people in history, society, ect. I have a hard time that anyone would really feel they say that. No matter what kind of ‘ite’ they are.
     ( you know…Helen Keller’s teacher, Meip Gies, Ty on TV that fixes houses up for people, Mother Teresa…)

     the CHURCH certainly doesn’t teach that, and sooooo…well..I don’t know. I just have a hard time taking that statement as a fact.

     By the way, I had heard though that in Katrina aftermath someone did say, ” Well there are two groups that were there for us…The Mormons AND the Latter-day Saints. This would have been the kind of confusion I had before I knew stuff.

     And I know plenty of other churches that were sending people down there, but I do think we have one of the best organizational plans and we are READY TO GO. It is nice.

     Comment by Melissa P. — June 10, 2010 @ 10:37 pm

128. Melissa: I believe that there are many good people outside of the Church. I wish some members who feel they have the corner on being “good” could attend things like our local RACES Meeting I went to last month. People from a variety of back rounds, who’s only thing in common was Ham radio & the desire to serve in a disaster.

     Yes, I see some nut cases around here as well, like those who feel voting Conservative was MUCH more important than missionary or humanitarian work.

     It’s just I kept dealing with some who think that way when I was living in Utah who felt that way, but some of that thinking is seen in other places. Yes, the Church may not teach those things, but many ignored Pres. Hinckley’s comment not to be “Holier than thou”. He made comment that after one LDS youth tore a religious emblem off of a non-member at a school.

     Comment by Mike H. — June 10, 2010 @ 10:57 pm

129. Hey, Hillary in Houston! So glad to learn the Houston area is purple! I am moving to the East Texas area, after 16 years in CO in wards that look and FEEL scarily more and more like Utah-cultural wards every day!

     I am so excited to get out of the expanding-to-CO Utah-Mormon culture, I am beside myself.

     I have struggled/questioned/debated with self about the culture or the gospel for so many years, I have lost track. I do my best to live the gospel as I understand it, and ignore the parts of the culture that I find intolerable.

     It gets tricky when culture and doctrine and institutional church get so intertwined, such as with the gender bias and inequality, and I have spent many long hours in prayer, in the temple searching for answers and God’s light on the subject. Still do.

     In the meantime, I am so grateful for fMh and the freedom and sisterhood here! I am so glad to know that I am not alone with these questions and observations!

     Comment by Debra — June 11, 2010 @ 12:25 am

130. thanks Molly and fMh Lisa.

     So, funeral potatoes.. wow, not sure if I’m game …

     Comment by bikinimaureen — June 11, 2010 @ 12:26 am

131. There is such an intense contrast between the sense of overwhelming kindliness that I know to be a core value to most Mormons, vs. the intense hostility directed at gay people like myself, and our families. It’s almost like conservative Mormons have no concept of us as being real people at all.

     True, and this is the other side of Mormonism, the side that people try not to see, or don’t want to see. When Mormons talk about what they value in Mormon culture, they mention the emphasis on families, the strong work ethic, and the focus on community service. They don’t think about the insularity and myopia which makes people who are “different” - i.e, gay people, feminists, Zion residents who are “gentiles” — almost invisible people who value conformity and homogeneity at all costs.

     Comment by Wonderment — June 11, 2010 @ 12:42 am

132. Us them
     Them bad
     Them us bad
     Us bad

     Comment by eric — June 11, 2010 @ 3:14 am

133. Just reading all of this, I wonder how much of this is Mormon culture and how much of it is American Mormon culture. I can relate to some of these issues having lived in Utah for a time– a place where the church seemed to be runned like a business, or a playground where people took turns being bishop, etc. …to Australia where the Bishop’s son and the son’s girlfriend lived together in the Bishop’s home. And the Bishop indulged in wine on occasssion. The culture of judgement is different– Americans (IMHO) like to judge each other (and themselves)- therefore, conservative verbage and related judgement is a part of the American aspect of the culture, rather than actual church or spiritual culture.

     Comment by spunky — June 11, 2010 @ 3:38 am

134. It takes a long time to read 133 comments! I have a love hate relationship with the Mormon culture - not the little quirks, fashion and such, but the political culture. The far right wingnuts that think my demo/left soul will inherit outer darkness are probably right since they make it so hard to love and forgive them. I’m working on it.

     The Lord is not about conformity; after all, He did not live His life to please myriad cultures that will be footnotes in eternity.

     Please understand my desire for self preservation and sanity when I say I will never live in Utah again… though I love to visit! The whited walls and “only 4 generations or more” Mormons are just a part of our strange little peculiarity. Don’t let your mind “stay in Utah”, see the world through the Lord’s eyes.

     Comment by Kathy — June 11, 2010 @ 10:22 am

135. Derek, Spunky, and many others hit the nail on the head, I think. It is easy to get fed up with all of the cultural aspects of the church that may be repulsive, but I think it is also easy to forget that these are real people we are talking about.

     I am a little sensitive about this because in all the outward ways I fit the mold many people are so turned-off of. I got married (to someone I met at BYU) at 19. I am in my early twenties with three children. I didn’t finish my bachelor’s degree. I am a stay-at-home mom with no current job prospects. I like sewing and crafts. I regularly wear pantyhose and I don’t mind wearing skirts or dresses to church.

     But I am a feminist, I love to study social issues, I love to meet people who are different than me, I love to build things, and I can make repairs and put things together faster than my husband. I am about to learn how to fix cars. I run the family budget. I hope to someday work with impoverished women, children, and teenagers.

     I am so much more than my appearance. I believe that almost everyone is.

     It is easy, by assuming that people who look like they are blindly conforming most certainly are doing just that, to avoid making friendships with and getting to know who those people really are.

     There are many things about mormon culture that bother me (not the least of which is the perception that the word of wisdom has nothing to do with the avoidance of excessive sugar, processed foods, and (heaven forbid) cream-of-anything soups).

     I just wish people would see me for who I really am rather than the stereotype I fit.

     Comment by Novice — June 11, 2010 @ 11:17 am

136. I don’t really know how purple houston is. I have a friend who had to go into hiding because of the KKK simply because she became active in setting up equal housing opportunities in her neighborhood. They not only came after her but her granddaughter who is bi-racial. She has had to move at least 7 times and have had to pay things in cash so as not to leave a trail behind her, yet they still find her.

     Comment by Diane — June 11, 2010 @ 11:23 am

137. as so-cal mormon convert that moved to utah…yeah– I suffered some culture shock.

     but here i am, ten years later and i love utah. there’s so much to do here. the skies are blue most of the time and the mountains…stunning.

     and our downtown scene?!!? yeah. i love utah.

     BUT,

     i don’t like the politics in this state, but i wouldn’t like the politics anywhere in the US. Our Legislature (which is full of some of the biggest dumb-asses you’ll ever get acquainted with) is constantly on a mission to prove just how ‘conservative’ *coughs* religious they are to the rest of the country.

     so here’s what i’ve learned or how i survive living in the Mo corridor (and keep in mind that if I lived in rural wisconsin (just back from a visit) i’d have to live the same way)

     1. don’t get too involved with the mormons. go to church, be neighborly and serve when possible but avoid the socializing with large groups.

     2. if you hear stupid crap in SS, speak up. People will never ever change if their opinions go unchallenged. especially, in church settings. think of your comments as a filter. plus, you’ll feel better.

     3. live an active life. get out and do things. some of the best geography in this country is found within a few hundred miles of salt lake city. Enjoy it.

     4. avoid the mormons.

     Comment by mfranti — June 11, 2010 @ 11:25 am

138. I say YAHOO for girls every where who respect their bodies and modesty enough to put something over or under a revealing prom dress! And shame on anyone who mocks them or calls them weird or peculiar. I rather thought that part of being Mormon is being a peculiar people. How dare you call yourselves Mormons and mock the very people you call brother or sister.

     This is feminism at it’s worst. I expected better, something more noble I suppose. I see I was wrong. Call me judgmental, I don’t really give a rip, just calling it like I see it.

     You sit on your little perch thinking yourself better than the rest of the world, or at least the Utah Mormons and do exactly what you accuse them of doing.

     How narrow minded can a group of people be? You preach acceptance on one hand, and dish out insults and rejection with the other. I feel sorry and sad for you who can’t see outside your blinders and realize you are just as unaccepting as you accuse the right wing crazies of being.

     Comment by Natalie — June 11, 2010 @ 11:38 am

139. I say YAHOO for girls every where who respect their bodies and modesty enough to put something over or under a revealing prom dress! And shame on anyone who mocks them or calls them weird or peculiar. I rather thought that part of being Mormon is being a peculiar people. How dare you call yourselves Mormons and mock the very people you call brother or sister.

     natalie, my 16 year old wore a prom dress that exposed her shoulders, clavicles and a small part of her cleavage (poor dear, she’s blessed that way). i even picked out the dress.

     why? because it was age appropriate, she looked nice and she felt pretty. she didn’t look trashy or slutty or immodest.

     so…take your shining example of what we’re talking about home for now.

     come back later when you’ve stepped down off your soap box. we’ll all be looking forward to what you have to say.

     thanks,

     Comment by mfranti — June 11, 2010 @ 11:43 am

140. @137

     Your comments made me laugh out loud

     Comment by Diane — June 11, 2010 @ 11:45 am

141. insults?

     where? i want to get in on that.

     Comment by mfranti — June 11, 2010 @ 11:45 am

142. Natalie #138 - You seem awfully hostile. Did something in particular touch a nerve? I didn’t hear anyone criticizing the girls who wore the t-shirt under the dress — just questioning the rulebound attitudes with which they are are surrounded, which made it seem necessary to them. It’s not the people that I hear being criticized, but the cultural expectations.

     Comment by Lorian — June 11, 2010 @ 12:04 pm

143. mfranti

     I don’t have a clue if your daughter’s dress was appropriate or not. I didn’t even say DON’T let your daughters wear inappropriate dresses. I said don’t mock the culture that preaches appropriate behavior, or the girls who choose to cover up their bodies.

     Comment by Natalie — June 11, 2010 @ 12:06 pm

144. natalie, your comment suggested that dresses with spaghetti straps or strapless dresses are immodest and girls that wear them sans t-shirt don’t have respect for their bodies or modesty.

     nothing will get you taken less seriously around here than coming on, out of nowhere, and telling us where we wrong without provide specific examples.

     if you have a counter argument or you’d like to call some specific ‘insults’ into question, do so. but you have to do them without hostility.

     hostility is the domain of lisa and myself.

     Comment by mfranti — June 11, 2010 @ 12:18 pm

145. I for one, am deeply, deeply offended by the irreverence show to Green Jello.
     You sit on your large perch for your wide butts, and have the audacity to criticize the one true jello.
     I not saying don’t eat other inappropriate colors of jello, but don’t mock the Lords choice of jello.

     Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — June 11, 2010 @ 12:31 pm

146. Yes, I would personally find spaghettis traps and strapless dresses immodest, and yes, I would say that wearing clothing that is that revealing is a lack of respect for modesty. That is my opinion though, I don’t expect you to agree with it.

     The problem I have is that when that was thrown into the whole “Mormon culture” argument, it annoyed me, even made me angry. Why, because if that is part of the mormon culture, as implied, then if a girl chooses to do that, it shouldn’t be mocked, and sorry, but from my point looking in this whole thread, excepting a few comments, is about mocking that culture.

     For the record, I don’t live in salt lake, or even in the mormon corridor, so it’s not me personally you’re insulting. So if I take exception to it as a mormon from outside that corridor, it’s likely other may to.

     ANyway, I’m sure you won’t see my point of view, just as I don’t see yours.

     I’d love to stay and play, but I’m sure I need to make jello or funeral potatoes or something - isn’t that what we conservative LDS mormon women do all day anyway?

     Comment by Natalie — June 11, 2010 @ 12:50 pm

147. I don’t have a clue if your daughter’s dress was appropriate or not. I didn’t even say DON’T let your daughters wear inappropriate dresses.

     and

     Yes, I would personally find spaghettis traps and strapless dresses immodest, and yes, I would say that wearing clothing that is that revealing is a lack of respect for modesty.

     you’ve got to be careful how you phrase things in the online world.

     you made a judgement about sleeveless dresses (and those that wear them), then tried to take it back when i shared my story and then went back to make judgments on those that wear spaghetti straps.

     just sayin’.

     I’d love to stay and play, but I’m sure I need to make jello or funeral potatoes or something - isn’t that what we conservative LDS mormon women do all day anyway?

     uggh…

     apparently you don’t know us very well and you haven’t read the OP or the comments.(or the countless number of posts on homemaking)

     lisa loves funeral potatoes. she makes them all the time for our snackers. in fact, the post that receives the most visits is lisa’s funeral potatoes post.

     we don’t have anything against conservative lds woman. many of our long time commenters are conservative. it’s how you comment (tone and attitude) that causes problems.

     so. stop attempting to appear the victim and acting like you’re not welcome here because you’re a conservative mormon woman. it’s how you stated your opinions that isn’t welcome.

     p.s. we’re all (mostly) mormon here. i think it’s fine, even healthy, to poke fun at our own peculiar family.

     and tshirts under prom dresses. tsk.tsk. there are other ways to ‘cover up’

     Comment by mfranti — June 11, 2010 @ 1:05 pm

148. Amen, Suzanne. I testify that there is only one true and living color of Jello, and yay, it be-eth green.

     Comment by Chelsea — June 11, 2010 @ 1:11 pm

149. Suzanne Neilsen ~ priceless. That’s going in my favorite quotes. You’re a genius.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 11, 2010 @ 1:20 pm

150. Hmph. Well, I don’t believe in jello, unless it’s made with agar. So there.

     Comment by Lorian — June 11, 2010 @ 1:25 pm

151. You are all apostates!!!

     Return to belief in the One True Spaghetti Monster.

     Blessed are you among sauces, and blessed is the spice from your shaker.

     RAmen

     Comment by JWalton — June 11, 2010 @ 1:42 pm

152. Been touched by his noodly appendage, have you, JWalton?

     Comment by Lorian — June 11, 2010 @ 1:55 pm

153. I’m not LDS, but my brother’s family is. And the little girls (well, not so little now, good heavens) wear t-shirts under sundresses in the summer. They also live in the Pacific Northwest, so it’s not like they exactly NEED sundresses.

     But this habit spawned one of our favorite family stories of little kid cuteness.

     9 years ago, when I was going to get married, my two little nieces were in the wedding as flower girls (8 and 5 at the time). I was showing them pictures in wedding magazines of what non-Temple weddings looked like, so they would know what was going on. The 5-year-old looked at me with big eyes and said “Aunt Beth, these dresses are really pretty, but you’d have to wear a t-shirt under them.”

     From a 5-year-old, it was really cute, because a t-shirt under a formal dress is silly, not because people are making fun of modesty, but because the t-shirt is incongruous. When we laugh at this story, we’re not laughing at young women who dress modestly. We are mocking the particular mode of dressing modestly that thinks that a t-shirt is a panacea that will cure all prom dresses. Shrug? Bolero jacket? Shawl? All of these are things that I frequently wear at formal events if I want something covering my shoulders. But a t-shirt? Not appropriate as an adjunct to formal wear.

     Comment by Beth — June 11, 2010 @ 1:57 pm

154. A t-shirt under a prom dress is just silly. A bolero would be far more appropriate for the occasion. And just as modest. You can be modest and still have basic fashion sense. Isn’t that a better lesson than that looking stupid is worth it cause at least you are modest?

     Comment by Tami — June 11, 2010 @ 1:57 pm

155. And a t-shirt under a prom dress doesn’t necessarily make it modest; it may actually draw attention to all the ways that the dress is immodest by outlining them in stark white cotton.

     Comment by Beth — June 11, 2010 @ 1:58 pm

156. In awe of his supreme meatiness, I have embraced the Moomon Church of His Spaghettiness, finding solace in the spoon of justice, and reject the heretical seduction of including pirates and ninjas (although not evil, as is claimed by the Reformed Church of Alfredo) within his saucy mercies.

     Comment by JWalton — June 11, 2010 @ 2:08 pm

157. Thanks for the nod, Lorian

     …we can carry on now. Nothing to see here….

     Comment by JWalton — June 11, 2010 @ 2:09 pm

158. My last visit to Utah was in mid May for the Ogden Marathon. We went to church with my parents and I was struck by all the little girls in pretty summer dresses– with a white T-shirt underneath them. It was awful. And there were my daughters in those same pretty dresses sans the T-shirt. Really, please someone tell me, is there really anything immodest about showing a SHOULDER? Much less a SHOULDER on a 4 year old??? I know I’m hardly an Orthodox Mormon here but my 10 year old gets Friend magazine and the last issue had a modesty check list with one of the boxes saying “are your sholders covered?” My blood started to boil. Since WHEN IS A SHOULDER immodest?? And then “stop trying to give my young child body issues at 10 years old!!” I’m all about not looking like a harlot but, really, a SHOULDER???

     Comment by LuluBelle — June 11, 2010 @ 2:13 pm

159. LuluBelle- I am opposed to the sexualization of children and I do think that the obsession over modesty at a young age actually contributes to that. It also trains boys to view girl’s bodies as sexual objects that must be covered. Though, within reason, i’ll probably let my daughter wear most things even as a teenager. I don’t think how much skin is showing is what makes modesty- it is more the attitude of the clothes. Do they say come hither or do they say it’s dang hot outside?

     Comment by Tami — June 11, 2010 @ 2:23 pm

160. I agree with Tami. Aren’t we getting into form over function here?

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 11, 2010 @ 2:26 pm

161. I have to admit that I’ve put a t-shirt under my little girls’ sundresses before, but mostly because I have sunburn-phobia where they are concerned. I’d dress them in long sleeves and long pants in the middle of July if they would tolerate it. :paranoid-mom:

     Comment by Lorian — June 11, 2010 @ 2:41 pm

162. I also think that it is the girls who can think for themselves who are the most likely to have the smarts to figure out that they have a right to say no, and to have a plan for themselves so they don’t have to spend their time impressing boys. Do we really think we need to spend our energy, time and resources
     

     programing

     our girls? Giving them confidence is going to be harder if they are confused about the implied power of non issues like shoulders. We need their power to come from their brains. I’m sure the practice of the tie shirts was started because someone thought it would make it easier for the kids to understand modesty, but I think the kids are smarter than that. I think it is the very nature of finding fault with some of this stuff that will ultimately strengthen our Mormon culture. So sorry if we hurt some feelings now and then. Change can be healthy, if a bit painful.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 11, 2010 @ 2:47 pm

163. oops, I did blockquotes instead of italics. I am going back out the garden now before I cause any more trouble.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 11, 2010 @ 2:49 pm

164. And Lorain if you used the t-shirt for sun protection that is function first so no foul.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 11, 2010 @ 2:52 pm

165. I’m gone for a few hours and look what I missed!

     Suzanne #145 - still laughing. Fabulous. I wholy embrace the green jello goodness….as long as shredded carrots are not invited (but by all means, bring on the whipped topping).

     And someone’s gotta fill me in on the whole Spaghetti Monster thing (newbie here)…

     Comment by Perri — June 11, 2010 @ 2:58 pm

166. Perri, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a tongue-in-cheek response to fundamentalist nonsense. Here’s a link:

     http://www.venganza.org/

     Comment by Lorian — June 11, 2010 @ 3:04 pm

167. Headed over there right now…thanks, Lorian. Muah!

     Comment by Perri — June 11, 2010 @ 3:06 pm

168. All hail, FSM! (and fMh)

     Perri, you can’t be a ‘Cafeteria Jell-O Eater.’ Without the shredded carrots, the One True Jello cannot be worthy of the Celestial Kingdom.

     Come to the Idaho snacker at the end of the month, where we will serve the One True and Living Jello, and teach you the “Funeral Potatoes Round.” Plus Buffy, making the Holy Trinity of the fMh godhead.

     Comment by Idahospud — June 11, 2010 @ 4:12 pm

169. Idahospud, repenting as we speak. And I’ll start practicing for the Round…(clears throat…”mee, mee, meee….”)

     Comment by Perri — June 11, 2010 @ 4:14 pm

170. yea, verily!

     Comment by mfranti — June 11, 2010 @ 4:17 pm

171. Perri and I will be having the vegan agar jello salad mold, btw. Does that mean we’ll have to be lowly servants in the celestial kingdom?

     /Lorian passes the popcorn bucket over to Perri…

     Comment by Lorian — June 11, 2010 @ 4:23 pm

172. Father in Heaven, thank-you for agar agar and for fMh which has brought forth the most heavenly group of peeps that enricheth my workday. Continue to bless us lowly servants….

     Comment by Perri — June 11, 2010 @ 4:30 pm

173. I love you all.

     Comment by Amanda C — June 11, 2010 @ 4:49 pm

174. Heading out to girl scout camp with my girls for the weekend. See y’all later.

     Comment by Lorian — June 11, 2010 @ 4:53 pm

175. Initial response…ewww Lorian! You make jello type salads with agar?! When I think of agar, thoughts of petri dishes and what grows in them comes to mind….and the smells! Memories from the microbiology lab. Your salads are probably great…I just have those *other* experiences with agar.

     Comment by Lera — June 11, 2010 @ 5:08 pm

176. Lorian, as long as the green jello cleaves unto the carrots, it mattereth not whence the gelatin comes, whether from the cloven hoof or the algea of the sea, The net gathereth of every kind.

     Comment by Idahospud — June 11, 2010 @ 5:12 pm

177. re: 172

     What makes you think Father has anything to do with this gathering?

     

     Comment by Derek — June 11, 2010 @ 5:20 pm

178. 176 - Idahospud - You are SO right. I thought about the origins of jello after I posted my comment, and KNEW someone would call me on it. It’s just that I was used to eating jello before I EVER knew where it came from! I try not to think about it.

     Comment by Lera — June 11, 2010 @ 5:32 pm

179. re: 176 - I pretty much blew Diet Coke outta my nose over that one

     re: 177 - Derek we can leave Father to attend to other duties during said gathering which would only mean more algae of the sea type jello for everyone else to partake wink wink

     Comment by Perri — June 11, 2010 @ 5:39 pm

180. Lera, I never saw your comment before I posted mine (I was interrupted while I was writing so it took some time to post), so I wasn’t calling you on it. But that is pretty funny! Jello is one of those things (like marshmallows and cheetos) that is so unlike any recognizable item we might eat that they kinda become a category of their own.

     Comment by Idahospud — June 11, 2010 @ 5:41 pm

181. You folks crack me up…it’s too bad I’m sick right now, because I’ve lost my voice so all that laughing entails is a rather vicious kicked dog noise.

     It’s a shame I’m on the wrong side of Idaho for that snacker!

     Comment by JWalton — June 11, 2010 @ 6:36 pm

182. I love ground horse hooves, what are all ya complain about?

     Comment by Diane — June 11, 2010 @ 8:07 pm

183. I’d like to think that here in North Texas, we’re winning the war against Intermountain Mormon Culture (IMC is my term for it). I know of several Utah families who move and then leave after a few years back to Utah because “it’s just not the same here.”

     Exactly. Here the BYU fanatics are looked on with a bit of pity.

     You do have some intermingling of Confederacy and Republic of Texas-ism with the Church culture, but that’s not as bad as you might think.

     Comment by queuno — June 11, 2010 @ 8:19 pm

184. Time for me to stop lurking.
     ‘course it’s way down on a busy thread so it may not matter.
     Hi, I’m RJ and I’m a Feminist Mormon Housewife.

     Feminist and Mormon anyway. Not a wife exactly. But since I’m the one who quit, moved out of state for my spouse’s school, and stayed home with the kids until they were in school, I’m counting it.

     I lived in a ward with a bishop who managed to make it through high school in the early 70s without knowing who Paul McCartney was because he avoided evil rock and roll. He had ten kids and their family never ate white bread for word of wisdom reasons. He loved Prop8.

     I’m pretty liberal. I like socialized medicine, punk rock, and diet pepsi. And bringing up the uncomfortable Old Testament scriptures in Sunday school. I hated this guy at first sight.

     Except I was wrong. he was a terrific bishop. He always had a hug for the girl with the pierced nose and tattoos, and had her close to mission papers last I saw her. He took a major cut in pay to change his job to one where he helped poor and homeless people. And he taught me more than I ever thought possible about personal revelation. And I’m sure we never voted for the same political candidate ever.

     I realized something else from him. I was upset when a liberal Mormon like me wasn’t accepted. And people said things I found appalling. BUT, if I wanted to be accepted, saducee e I that I am,I needed to treat the people I saw as pharisees with the same way I wanted them to treat me.

     That’s my answer to IdahoG-ma up above. She seems to have so far never said anything that isn’t both correct AND clever. So I want to at least try to answer her.

     An ultra-mo friend once asked (fairly politlely, I thought) for a scripture to back up an opinion he disagreed with in a lesson. I thought that was nicely done. And I’ve used that one myself. And the King Benjamin beggar scripture. But I try to keep it mellow. I’ve been questioned on something I said, and sometimes I’ve backed down somewhat, and sometimes I haven’t.
     But I’ve decided I want to be accepted in church with my unorthodox opinions, so I at least try to be nice to the people who are right-wing nut jobs. (they’re still nuts, I’m just doing my best to let Jesus be the one to smack them down for it)

     btw, I kind of like jello and cheesy potatoes. I hate fry sauce and Glen Beck (trying to forgive). And my dad still spits on the byu alumnus magazine before he throws it out. I never applied there

     Comment by RJ — June 11, 2010 @ 10:02 pm

185. RE 129 &136 - The downtown Houston area from my observations the last 7 years I have been here are that it is fairly purple. The outer areas and suburbs are much more conservative for sure and unfortunately there still exists quite a bit of hate and backwardness in places. My first teaching job in TX was in a really small town full of people that were pretty closed minded and I don’t think hardly any of them had even been out of the state. I moved to a larger district closer to the city and it was a HUGE difference - more open mindedness and acceptance of others. People seemed to be more well-rounded. My experience here has been pretty positive and 136 I am sooo sorry your family has had to face such an ugly situation. That is terrible and I hope they can find peace soon.

     RE 183 - BYU fans are pitied here because really, when you compare BYU fans to UT fans or A&M fans, the BYU fans are pretty lame (sidenote - attended the A&M bonfire once and will never go again). And although this thread is about the love/hate relationship of mormon culture, I am sure we could have a similar one regarding TX. There are things I love about it, but things I hate as well. Then again, the same could be said by anyone of just about anyplace I suppose.

     Regarding the whole clothes-modesty-formal dress issue: I had a HORRIBLE experience shopping for a formal dress last year to wear to a special event. I don’t want to take up a ton of room to tell my story but it was the most frustrating shopping experience I have had and it really challenged my testimony (I still don’t think I am over the whole thing) and I have never cried so much over a piece of clothing before. I’ll share all when there is a modesty thread in the future. Next time I need a modest gown, I’ll just try tacking green jell-o onto my body because I’m sure it will be easier and less expensive.

     Comment by Hillary — June 11, 2010 @ 10:15 pm

186. 184 RJ - Loved your post. So glad to have you here.

     185 Hillary - been there/done that. Shopping for the last 3 Christmas work functions have been, well, interesting. I feel your pain.

     Speaking of Mormon culture (has this thread ever discussed the “think before you speak Mormon culture aspect??”), I go to a ward function tonight because my son begged me. I do love people, but I’m not a huge “let’s socialize at church” kind of gal. So I’m talking my friend Tina ( who’s about my age….42, gasp) and another woman comes up and says, “I’ve never met you before. Who are you?” So, I introduce myself and she says, “Oh, are you Tina’s mother?” I wanted to die. I was praying her next question wasn’t if I was preggo because I do have a few extra l-b’s on me right now. And there was no green jello (agar or cloven hoof) or funeral potatoes in sight. Crud.

     Comment by Perri — June 11, 2010 @ 11:56 pm

187. #184, welcome. hope you comment more. you sound like my kind of people.

     Comment by spunky — June 12, 2010 @ 12:40 am

188. “I realized something else from him. I was upset when a liberal Mormon like me wasn’t accepted. And people said things I found appalling. BUT, if I wanted to be accepted, saducee e I that I am,I needed to treat the people I saw as pharisees with the same way I wanted them to treat me.”

     Amen and seconded. Pride and charity goes both ways.

     It isn’t fair to upset when charity isn’t extended to us and then refuse to extend charity to other people.

     And making fun of people’s clothes is really low. And stupid. It’s fulfilling the worst stereotypes of women. No one is forcing me to wear a t-shirt under a formal dress, so what can I complain about, and I refuse to be that kind of person that mocks people when they think they look nice. I don’t want to be that kind of person, and it disturbs me to be around people who do. We are better than that.

     Comment by Katie P. — June 12, 2010 @ 7:47 am

189. RJ~thank you, for the compliment and especially for the answer. I think you are spot on. Yikes, it hearkens back to my “I want to be classy” idea. So that means I knew the answer all along? Go figure!

     Hope you keep commenting. Wisdom is always welcome.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 12, 2010 @ 10:28 am

190. (they’re still nuts, I’m just doing my best to let Jesus be the one to smack them down for it)

     This will get me through the hard times.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 12, 2010 @ 10:36 am

191. “How dare you call yourselves Mormons and mock the very people you call brother or sister…”

     Natalie, I call myself whatever I want. Its called free agency. Sorry, I can’t be classy like IdahoG-ma…

     “This is feminism at it’s worst…Call me judgmental, I don’t really give a rip, just calling it like I see it.”

     You obviously never have been to a luncheon with a bunch of non-member feminist on the east coast. Its good times! BTW, you can be judgemental as long as I can be opinionated.

     “You sit on your little perch thinking yourself better than the rest of the world, or at least the Utah Mormons and do exactly what you accuse them of doing.”

     Nope, I know I am not better than the rest of the world. I try to keep an open mind.

     “How narrow minded can a group of people be?”
     I didn’t post my opinion at a Glen Beck blog. Here at FMH I am pretty much a conservative lurker that enjoys different points of view which are usually valid. I am an old hippie first wave feminist that joined the Church in 1973. Read my intro to see how narrow minded I really am.

     “You preach acceptance on one hand, and dish out insults and rejection with the other.”

     Mea culpa… sorry for insulting you. Blame it on my narrow mind and blinders.

     “I feel sorry and sad for you… and realize you are just as unaccepting as you accuse the right wing crazies of being.”

     I have a BIL in Georgia that is pretty right winger, he thinks that I am a Liberal Obama Lover (i am!); not at all like the other Mormons he knows. Why do you have to be so hostile. You need to have a cuppa and chill… and keep on reading!

     Comment by Kathy — June 12, 2010 @ 2:07 pm

192. Kathy~what you talkin’ ’bout, girl. That was as classy as you can get under the circumstances. Somethings do need to be said, and “everything’s relative”, as us old hippies used to say back in the day.

     Comment by IdahoG-ma — June 12, 2010 @ 2:29 pm

193. I’d just like to say first of all that I’m a guy…

     I also wanted to say I find it very impressive that you can post what looks like its going to be over 200 comments on a single post, thats perseverance!

     Comment by LoganM — June 12, 2010 @ 7:36 pm

194. I now attend my husband’s ward in Provo. Even the difference between Sandy and Provo is amazing. We had the most condescending jerk come into our home Friday night and start to tell my husband off for how he did not approve of our marriage. I let him rant for a while until I just couldn’t take it anymore. I went out there and told him that we are a Christian home and his unChristian spirit was not welcome here. I told him that he needed to pray before he came to our house. He kept asking my husband about how we were handling personal matters. My husband replied “I will not tell you that.”

     Am I going to run? Oh he!! no. I am going to stay right here and teach these people to be Christian if it kills them. (which may not necessarily be the worst thing in the world).

     Comment by StillConfused — June 13, 2010 @ 10:00 am

195. #190’s quote (Sorry I am reading this backwards) = best quote ever!

     Comment by StillConfused — June 13, 2010 @ 10:03 am

196. How could someone not approve of your marriage? That makes me curious…or am I just nosey? Maybe both…Still, sounds like someone forgot to cast our their own beam before they looked in your eye, huh?

     Comment by WoahNellie — June 13, 2010 @ 5:16 pm

197. #145 (green jello ie the Lord’s jello ) had me laugh-snorting pretty hard.

     Comment by Mamamia — June 13, 2010 @ 9:19 pm

198. 194 Wow… is this guy your HT? “How are you handling personal matters…” I would have popped my cork and beamed this brother with my large print quad. Or give him a sample of your cooking via airmail. (I’m not doing so well on the Celestial Material Packet…) Green jello with grapes and shredded carrots would make a fun projectile, though it makes for a big clean-up. And why waste it.

     Comment by Kathy — June 13, 2010 @ 10:24 pm

199. Catching up here after getting back from girl scout camp, and I had to add one more big :snort:

     Comment by Lorian — June 13, 2010 @ 11:00 pm

200. After reading most of this thread….I think what bothers me most about Mormon culture is its American-ness. I don’t care about American politics. I don’t care about Obama or red or blue states. I don’t care about the Republicans or Democrats. I don’t care if you are from Utah or a liberal eastern state. I don’t care if your hate Sarah Palin.

     Some of us on this thread aren’t Americans so I think the American terms of reference used constantly on here are what annoy me the most. If we start thinking as members of a global church rather than about American politics being played out in SS this blog would benefit.

     Comment by Right Wing Feminist — June 14, 2010 @ 7:16 am

201. 194 - Still Confused…I’m so very sorry about your experience with your HT. I myself have had a few similar experiences that left much to be desired, but good for you that you spoke up. My mother always says that in instances like the one you described that if we don’t say anything, we aren’t helping anyone else who may be the future target for that person’s innapropriate words or behavior. Sometimes all it takes is a gentle nudge (or a firmer push) to let someone know that they’ve been hurtful for them to think and hopefully watch what they say (or do) in the future. And when all else fails, we can let Jesus do the major “smack downs” as another poster so fantastically put it. But I am sorry for you having to go through that….and for the others on here who have had to deal with someone who was less than Christlike.

     199 - Lorian, hope girl camp was fun!

     And with that, hope everyone has a great week!

     Comment by Perri — June 14, 2010 @ 11:17 am

202. 198 - Kathy

     “beamed this brother with my large print quad”

     Awesome, you go, sister!!

     Comment by Perri — June 14, 2010 @ 11:37 am

203. 200 - Right Wing Feminist

     I think what bothers me most about Mormon culture is its American-ness……Some of us on this thread aren’t Americans so I think the American terms of reference used constantly on here are what annoy me the most. If we start thinking as members of a global church rather than about American politics being played out in SS this blog would benefit.

     I’m not American, and some of the excessively American things about the Church niggle me.

     However, I don’t understand why you are singling out fMh as your own American political bug-bear. There have been some political debates on here, but that is because the consequences affect them. If you aren’t interested, don’t read those posts.

     Comment by Lulu — June 21, 2010 @ 9:38 am

204. As a non-Mormon, I believe that the family friendly nature of the church is a draw card to bring good family minded people into a religion that is man-made, and leading people astray.

     Comment by Jay — June 24, 2010 @ 7:49 am

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