Dear fmh: Why are some members so preachy?
Petunia is a 16 year old Laurel that lives in Salt Lake City. She’s a convert to the Church, reader of sci fi/fantasy (she didn’t get it from me), lover of shoes and budding feminist. She is loved by EVERYONE (seriously, the fMh permas like her more than me) and she’s also my daughter.
/begin momma bear mode
I would ask that your comments take into consideration that Petunia is not able to argue at the level you are accustomed to. That means, if you take issue with her opinions, find a polite and age appropriate way to do it. If you’d like, you can direct any and all nastiness my way.
/end momma bear mode
By: Petunia
While I’m away from home visiting family, I’ve quickly developed a new morning ritual of coffee and facebook (my mom is a computer hog and never lets me use her laptop). Within a few minutes of being online, a friend hopped on, asked me what I’m up to and I responded with: “ I’m drinking my coffee and checking face book”.
He started to say, “ you know coffee is… nevermind”.
I then finished the sentence and typed, “against our religion?”
I told him I’m aware of the Mormon rules, but to be provocative, asked why it’s so much worse, if other members drink coke or other caffeinated beverages?
He said that coffee has way more caffeine than coke, so I just had to ask how drinking a little coffee every once in a while is worse than those who drink gobs of coke everyday.
He went on to preach to me from certain scriptures and the Word of Wisdom. I asked him if the Word of Wisdom is so important, (which it is, but in this context is obviously going into the gray area) why is it okay for members to drink caffeinated drinks and watch the “unholy, non-spirit lifting” crap on T.V. ?
I told him that I don’t want to drink liquefied, high-fructose corn syrup and that drinking coffee, in moderation, like all things, can have health benefits such as: Reduced Gall Stones, Reduced Risk for Alzheimer’s Disease, Reduced Risk for Parkinson’s Disease, Antioxidants and Cancer-Fighting Properties, Increased Cognitive Ability, Bowel Stimulation, and Reduced Risk for Gout (citation needed-admin).
I explained to him that I understand where he is coming from and that I respect his views on the subject, but I would appreciate the same courtesy in return. He apologized and said that he got into “Spirit mode” and was “carried away“, but said “ my Duty as a Priest in the Church is to watch over it always. My duty is to invite all to come unto Christ and to be perfected in him. But Ya I understand”
I reassured him that his faith in the church is good, but it’s just different from mine.
So aside from the obvious questions about the Word of Wisdom and caffeine, why do some members feel that its their duty to police the actions of other members? Why do some of the more strident believers feel compelled to preach their beliefs in such an annoying and disrespectful way? Honestly, as someone that is just figuring out how I want to live or not live my religion, attitudes like my friends are not helpful and actually make me feel unwelcome in the Church.
p.s. Go easy on me. It’s my first time ever doing a blog post. My mom made me do it. 
The problem with coffee, Petunia, is that it tends to push you towards more addictive and harmful kinds of drugs . . . like blogging.
Comment by Kaimi — July 12, 2010 @ 7:00 pm
Shouldn’t friends express concern over your decisions? If you were having your “occassional cigarette” shouldn’t he also be worried? Both substances are habit forming, both are spoken against by church leaders, the WoW, and both are obstacles of baptism.
Comment by ErinAnn — July 12, 2010 @ 7:04 pm
because they are jealous we drink the good stuff!
But, all joking aside, it could be because they honestly believe their happiness is contingent upon keeping the WoW, and other things in the mormon realm like getting married in the temple, abstinence before marriage, and the like. And, since they believe so much that doing these things makes them happy, they have to try to convince you that it will make you happy and such.
Or, you could be like my mother, and other people here in Utah, and really like to pass judgment upon others because it makes them feel like what they are doing is right, and that they are a better person than you.
I tend to believe the latter more than the former.
but, great job on your first post!
Comment by opal — July 12, 2010 @ 7:08 pm
Hi Petunia! I think we would be friends if we knew each other.
I think a lot of it is because we’re told to make “righteous judgments,” but people take it to mean “you are allowed to judge others because you’re so righteous.” We’re told to be a righteous influence on one’s friends by being a good example, but people take that to mean that they should explicitly TELL people when they’re doing something that they think is wrong.
I think the preachiness also comes from the fact that we’re given a lot of rules. Because we’re told to “be good,” some people think that anyone who doesn’t do those “good” things is “bad” and needs correction.
It’s just hypocrisy. Some people just think that because they’re so awesome and perfect and they never do anything wrong, that they have the responsibility to bring others back into the fold.
Comment by Amanda C — July 12, 2010 @ 7:08 pm
They think they’re doing you a favor.
Comment by Kix — July 12, 2010 @ 7:18 pm
Petunia, you are very brave. And I have a hard time believing your mom could force you to do anything. Doesn’t seem like her style.
I think ErinAnn nailed it. Sure, there are always the self-righteous who get a kick out of telling everyone else how they’ve got a one-way ticket to the celestial kingdom and to be sure and send them postcards from Hell. BUT, usually, it’s well-meaning (your friend sounds pretty nice, non-threatening–did you really get annoyed at his comments? I thought his response defining his role as a Priest was actually quite thoughtful).
I would encourage you as you do your figuring out (very important btw and something we all do sooner or later–kudos for doing it sooner) to learn to practice charity in your responses to your friends. Don’t bother with any chips on your shoulder, not that you have them but it’s pretty hard not to put them up there, esp. when you feel like your beliefs are being challenged.
And just remember, the church doesn’t have a corner on annoying and disrespectful people
Some people don’t have a great grasp of why they do do the things they do and can come off as super irritating when they bumble through their explanations.
Comment by Lupita — July 12, 2010 @ 7:29 pm
but begging …i’m not beneath begging.
i was helping petunia navigate through the conversation in the post this morning and i discovered (kinda always knew) that the poor dear has a debating streak (read: low threshold for b.s.) in her. don’t know where she gets it from….
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 7:41 pm
Nice first post, Petunia! I see blogging in your future. (I wonder whether FMH has a nepotism policy? If so, momma might need to retire…)
Just between you and me, my wife drinks iced coffee drinks. She was an adult convert and loves the taste of coffee, and while I can’t relate (as I grew up LDS), it’s fine by me. In the universe of “sins,” I think drinking coffee is probably just about at the bottom of the list.
But as you’ve discovered your coffee drinking is going to make your LDS friends twitchy. Even though in and of itself it’s a trifle, the WoW has come to function as a boundary maintenance device in our church culture. Living it means you’re on the team; not living it means, maybe, that you don’t consider yourself part of team Mormon. And that’s gonna make some folks nervous.
I know it seems kind of silly that we elevate a trifle like coffee drinking above, say, the seven deadly sins. But whether one drinks coffee or not is a pretty bright line thing, whereas whether you have, say, improper pride is way more subjective and difficult for an outsider to discern.
So I hope you’ll be patient with your LDS friends who express concerns to you about your coffee drinking. I’m sure those sentiments are coming from a place of genuine concern, and it’s nice that they care enough to broach the issue with you.
Comment by Kevin Barney — July 12, 2010 @ 7:41 pm
Great post, Petunia.
I think that many religions encourage members to police one another, because it helps to keep people “in line” and loyal to the church. I think that many of the more “nit-picky” rules are developed for just this purpose — they set members apart from those around them and develop a strong group identity (witness groups such as the Amish and Old Order Mennonites). Making each member his “brother’s keeper” keeps the organization as a whole more interdependent and insular and helps keep members from assimilating into surrounding culture.
I think the approach is very closely related to codependency, in which individuals attempt to control the behavior of those around them for their own comfort. Seeing others engaging in behaviors which one has decided to believe are proscribed challenges one’s beliefs and one’s position. It is uncomfortable. It can disturb one’s satisfaction with the personal decision to accept those proscriptions. Criticizing and challenging those who do not similarly follow the church’s proscriptions is a way of dealing with that anxiety and reinforcing one’s position and beliefs.
If your friend was to simply accept your choice to drink coffee and not challenge it, he might come to question his own adherence to the principle. He may be attempting to reinforce his own beliefs in the importance of avoiding coffee by criticizing your decision to drink it.
Comment by Lorian — July 12, 2010 @ 7:41 pm
I think you’re fine being a good member of the church and a coffee drinker, as long as you haven’t made any covenants against drinking coffee specifically. As a 16 y.o., you haven’t made temple covenants to keep the WofW. You’re not likely to be a current student at BYU, with its honor code barring coffee consumption. In other words, you haven’t promised to obey that word of counsel. If you become addicted to coffee, it may be harder to make those covenants later, and that’s probably where the concern lies.
You could also answer back that you do keep most of the counsel in the WofW; eating fruit in the season thereof and eating meat sparingly. It’s too bad we as a church don’t focus more on the positive advice. We should all discuss Michael Pollan for the 5th Sunday meeting.
And the pioneers definitely drank coffee and tea. There’s a great story in Wallace Stegner’s The Gathering of Zion about a woman who brought tea:
“Just before they left, a friendly neighbor gave Jane Richards a pound of tea, and that small gift probably did more than anything else except her faith to keep her alive for the next months.” (86)
Although I believe that each person should strive to keep the commitments they have made, I recognize that the rules we follow are flexible and have changed over time.
Good luck!
Comment by reader Rachel — July 12, 2010 @ 7:43 pm
I have the same problem with my dad, but I am okay with it because I know he’s genuinely concerned about my eternal salvation. He’s a pain in the behind out of love, so I can deal with that. With others, it’s a harder call. Some are genuinely concerned. Others are genuinely nosy or even snippy. When it comes right down to it, we’re all responsible for our own salvation, though, so I feel perfectly comfortable either not talking about it or telling people I’m comfortable with my choices and confident that I’m okay with God. I’m sure they often then go off and pray frantically either for me or to remove the taint from them for having talked to me, but that’s okay.
Comment by Paula — July 12, 2010 @ 7:43 pm
and the pride can come from both ends of the debate.
as i told you this morning, it’s very important that you respect your friend’s view of the WoW and not suggest that he is wrong just because it doesn’t make sense to you.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 7:45 pm
And I must admit I’m slightly jealous, especially since my favorite coffee substitute, Postem, has bee discontinued. Sigh…
Comment by reader Rachel — July 12, 2010 @ 7:45 pm
Not to quibble with specifics, but I am assuming by your introduction that your friend is of a similar age to yourself. So I may caution against using 16-18 year old males as an examplar of maturity. Nevertheless, I think your friend initially showed great restraint, when he said “ you know coffee is… nevermind”. He realized that his comment may be condescending and stopped before he started. (I am assuming that he did not intentionally leave the beginning of his comment, but did so in haste).
It seems that your response and comment then prompted him into a defense of his beliefs. I don’t believe that you necessarily made a comment intending to be provocative, or derisive, or antagonistic. Nevertheless, his response is understandable (at least from someone who at one point was an easily excitable 16 year old boy).
you mentioned
I would respond that some members feel that it is their duty to police the actions of others because they feel that they have a responsibility to watch out for others, and protect them from spiritual harm. Soldier on the watch tower, catcher in the rye. Why do some of the strong believer feel compelled to preach their beliefs? For the same reason. They feel they have something that will make others happy. Its understandable.
Why are some people strident, annoying and disrespectful? Cause they don’t know any better. Or they have an inferiority complex. Cause they have a headache. And for a variety of reasons, many of which I am still learning, even though I am more than twice your age.
And upon refreshing, I must say that I second what Lupita and Kevin Barney mentioned.
Comment by ola senor — July 12, 2010 @ 7:49 pm
Petunia~ahh..a cyber g-granddaughter. Wow! A cool one, too. All, I can say is, if your faith is based on Christ, then you have all you need to make the decisions you need to make. Ask and it shall be given. But, Petunia, you should know I believe way more in Christ, than the church. I personally live the WoW, but I think it is up for interpretation on the caffeine thing, and you will want to take into consideration the recommend thing, other than that, learning to live by the spirit is something I highly recommend. You have a really awesome Mom and I would listen to her advise, ’cause I happen to know she loves you more than anything. I like what the others have said about judgmental people. And yes, they are everywhere, not just the LDS faith, maybe even more so in some. Learn to trust yourself and God. And Mom.:D
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 12, 2010 @ 7:52 pm
Hi, Petunia. I teach junior high, so I will talk to you as if you were a former student coming to me with this question.
First, I’m no fan of coffee, but you seem fairly informed about risks and benefits, so the teacher in me would praise you for your research. However, do be careful of anything (including the favorite Mormon sinful indulgence, Diet Coke) which can be overdone and therefore harmful. Moderation is the key with lots of things.
Secondly, to answer your actual question about why lots of Mormons get so preachy. I think that for a lot (not all, of course) of these folks feel the need to justify themselves, and they do this by trying to force their views on others. Should you, for example, decide to have a small family instead of a larger one in the future, be prepared that mothers of large, church-endorsed, full-quiver families will likely be telling you to make more babies. This will help them justify the sacrifices they have made in order to have big families when they might have chosen other benefits that are equally satisfying. Should you decide that RS is dull beyond words to anyone younger than 65 and start attending less frequently than every single week, you will be preached at by those who will either say or imply that you are not spiritually in tune if you do not love every single second of RS. This will help them justify their own attendance and lack of doing anything to make it more interesting. Get the picture?
Really, if you’re informed (including about how people at church will view you) and your parents and doctor are okay with your drinking coffee, it shouldn’t be any big deal. But someone will always make it a big deal in order to justify their own decisions. Ideally, you — and the rest of us — can learn to live and let live when it’s something that really doesn’t matter that much (e.g. your drinking a cup of coffee is not the same thing to me as if you were drunk driving and putting lots of people at risk).
Practice will help you learn how to respond to these people. Best of luck to you!
Comment by A Paperback Writer — July 12, 2010 @ 7:53 pm
Because they’ve forgotten that, when Cain said that he was not his brother’s keeper, he was right.
I’m not a zoo animal, a bee, or a book; I don’t need a keeper. I need friends, partners, fellow-travelers, and so forth. I don’t need a nag or a fishwife.
A keeper is always above what is kept, but all are alike unto God. Therefore, why does anyone need a keeper?
Comment by Goldarn — July 12, 2010 @ 7:56 pm
“We should all discuss Michael Pollan for the 5th Sunday meeting.”
Amen, sister.
“Living it means you’re on the team; not living it means, maybe, that you don’t consider yourself part of team Mormon. And that’s gonna make some folks nervous.”
Well put, Kevin. Especially if they’re seriously invested in the team. Many people have a hard time believing that there is a place on the team for all of those in the outfield, as well as those on the bench. It can be stifling when there are so many willing to tell you exactly how the game is to be played.
Comment by Lupita — July 12, 2010 @ 7:58 pm
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the WoW is an easy thing to pinpoint and judge. If someone you know might be having an affair, yes, that is a more serious offense, but you’ll have a hard time proving it, and it’s much more risky trying to pry into stuff like that.
Why we feel the need to judge one another is beyond me, but it is a particular feature in our culture. Maybe it’s because members, and especially the youth, receive SO many lessons on standards over everything else. And maybe that’s for a good reason–adult members are afraid that teens, in this unstable stage of life, will go astray, and they want to prevent that in any way they can. If that means drilling the WoW and kissing rules into you, as far as they are concerned, so be it. This, unfortunately, causes a lot of young members to mistake standards for the gospel, and therefore, coffee seems like a much bigger deal than, I dunno, big things like forgiveness.
Once these members are a little older, people stop worrying about them so much, and they start actually talking about the gospel like Jesus has something to do with it. Once you’re in your mid-twenties or so, most people will probably let it go, but the ones that don’t just can’t shake the instinct to “protect” you.
Comment by AllieKay — July 12, 2010 @ 8:02 pm
It might make you feel better to know that most of us have to endure this sort of “policing” crap in some form of another. I don’t drink coffee, but I do eat tirimisu which has coffee in it, and I’ve gotten chewed out for it more than once, mostly by my older sister.
Imagine the horror if they found out that I loved the movie “Inglourious Basterds”!
Comment by AllieKay — July 12, 2010 @ 8:06 pm
Threadjack~then right back to the subject. Ola senior…Ola Idaho?
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 12, 2010 @ 8:10 pm
Good post! Now you know how to get at your mom’s laptop…just mention you have a post idea!
I think some people are more judgemental, some are just learning how to show concern, others are trying to help, some are rude, some are figuring out what really matters…it’s a learning process.
It does sound like your friend really cares…and you both have some to learn about being defensive and sharing your feelings…both of which included valid insights. Coffee isn’t critical…yet it is something we use as an indicator…some people are more addicted to FB than others are to their coffee.
enjoy blogging and debating (which you obviously got from your father because your mom still has hers
)
Comment by britt k — July 12, 2010 @ 8:10 pm
I got a case of beer in my food storage that I use for baking bread and adding to chili. But I’m highly unlikely to mention that at church, even if I am asked specifically what I’m storing. I know it would just make them feel uncomfortable to have to call me out.
Comment by reader Rachel — July 12, 2010 @ 8:11 pm
Petunia,
A delightful and insightful post.
I think some preach about coffee and tea in particular because it is low hanging fruit. It’s too easy for one who abstains and who wants to convert another, “help” another, or keep the members clean and true to feel qualified to preach on that subject. Were the subject “loving your neighbor as yourself,” or something equally important and difficult, they have to acknowledge their own failings and forgo opportunities to correct you.
I also think medical data indicating good properties of coffee and tea and destructive properties of sodas threaten testimonies too dependent on the smaller issues and not dependent enough on the big picture issues (love, for instance). The big picture issues of the gospel are true and tough and faith in them should not be reliant on the smaller issues which can change over time.
Comment by Molly Bennion — July 12, 2010 @ 8:12 pm
you know, when petunia told me what the young man had said about being a priest, my little red lights went off.
I think I would have just rolled my eyes if he said, well, my “Duty as a Member of the Church is to watch over it always” instead stating his office.
and let it be known that the P-hood is not my thing within the Church, but for some reason, I saw the potential for it to become an issue for the kid.
How many times does she have to hear something along the lines of, ” because I hold this [fill in the blank] office, i’m responsible for…” and think, hey, he’s go the p-hood, he’s the boss?
but that’s just my take.
Erin Ann, one day we agree and the next we dont…
ciggarettes and coffee are not even in the same ballpark as far as badness is concerned.
let’s not confuse the two and make the kid (and anyone else that loves their morning brew) feel like they are getting involved with some really yucky stuff.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 8:13 pm
Petunia~interesting subject since I am seriously thinking about adding green tea to my diet. I think it tastes gross. So, that might be more of the problem than the fact that we shouldn’t drink tea. Hmmm, now I realizing that health is the objective, right?
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 12, 2010 @ 8:21 pm
or she could assume that power and responsibility from God is not to be taken lightly and she will be prepared how to respect her own power and responsibility as a priestess…
Comment by britt k — July 12, 2010 @ 8:33 pm
LOL #26 Have you ever tried the flavored green tea with some Splenda?
Yeah, the excuse that it was his “job” because of the Phood kinda bugged me as well Mfranti. If it had been me talking to him I might have said something along the lines of “so… because you have the priesthood you would think it was out of line for a sister to bring up this same issue with me?” Then again, I’ve become a total butt lately with things like this lol
I think people feel the need to correct each other because of the LDS focus on “Works” and the lack of focus on “Grace”. Some forget that it isn’t works alone that save us and think that if you do one little thing “wrong” (because they see the world in terms of black and white) that you are tempting eternal punishment.
Many LDS people (at least that I know) seem to see the world with very little grey… they think automatically “tea/coffee = bad” just like they think “making out/having sex = bad” even though they are no where NEAR the same thing. I drink Green Tea due to a doctors recommendation, but (I have to admit) also because I like the stuff, but because my doctor recommends it for medical reasons it magically makes it “okay”. Are my doctors words publicized in the church…. nope! Nor do I want them to be. But it’s hard for some people to see that there are exceptions to EVERY rule.
Sometimes things are not in black and white and for some people to admit that means that their whole view on the world has to adjust. That’s a tough thing to deal with and many people just choose not to…I really can’t blame them for that.
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 8:46 pm
Ummm can I ask what this has to do with anything so far?
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 8:48 pm
Sorry that should have been qualified… that “making out/having premarital sex = bad” … even then, both those things in context do have exceptions.
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 8:50 pm
Petunia, I often feel the same way at church. But I think it is important to note that these interactions happen outside church as well. It is human nature to want others to see the world the way we do. It is safer for us. My non-religious friends react the same way to things they care about (for example, a friend voted for a Republican & they were all horrified & then tried to teach him the error of his ways). I think it is more frustrating at church because people play the God-card to support whatever view they hold. What is important is for you to figure out your relationship with God - once you’ve done that, it is much easier to let these things go by without really caring about others’ opinions.
Comment by bh — July 12, 2010 @ 9:04 pm
1. It isn’t just Mormons. It’s a human thing.
2. Not drinking coffee is a very bright line, and choosing to break that and flaunt it is a decision in itself. Since you know that crossing it that would make your friend uncomfortable, asking him to be comfortable with it seems a little worse than his marvelously restrained reply.
Comment by Katie P. — July 12, 2010 @ 9:08 pm
re #32 I don’t think she was flaunting anything… he asked what she was doing, she told him. I think that is just basic honesty. Editing yourself for others comfort can be damaging in and of itself…
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 9:16 pm
While I generally think it is good to think about why you do things, when it comes to commandments I think it is important to ultimately be willing to obey a commandment simply because God says so. I know that God knows and understands things that I can’t begin to understand in my mortal, unperfected state. Something like coffee is not something so horrible that it makes someone a bad person, yet he’s asked us to refrain. It is something so simple and almost meaningless. If we can’t be bothered to turn down a drink and choose something else, are we really willing to give God our whole hearts? If a drink of coffee is higher on our list of priorities, what else is?
Be kind to your young friends about this. They, like you, are trying to figure out their feelings about their religion. I felt quite isolated as a Mormon when I was a teenager, and so it was important to me to know that other Mormon teenagers were having a similar experience. People need to find others like themselves. It was heartbreaking to me when other Mormon teenagers didn’t treat “our” religion as a priority in their life. They may come off as preachy to you which hurts your feelings, but your decisions in how you live your religion may hurt the feelings of other kids in your Mormon community so try to see it from that perspective.
You may always notice that sometimes a Mormon won’t go swimming on Sunday but they’ll tell a white lie over the phone. Everyone is going to have different commandments that they are currently making a priority and other commandments that they are currently letting slide. However, don’t let that be a justification for your decisions about what commandments you decide to live or break.
To be fair to your friend, you did say he switched to “nevermind” and it was you who decided you DID want to engage him about the subject. And he did apologize that he got carried away. So, I think you two managed to discuss it and share your views in a pretty healthy way.
Comment by jks — July 12, 2010 @ 9:18 pm
Maybe it’s just because I’m a little annoyed from a lesson in RS on the priesthood yesterday but what the heck does he even mean to say “my Duty as a Priest in the Church is to watch over it always”?
I don’t have really any logical reason why people are so preachy, I’m try to figure that out because I’m living with a MIL that is. I guess from her perspective she just wants her family to be with her for eternity and in her mind, I won’t be able to go to the celestial kingdom if I drink green tea everyday. I do think it is easy for people to point out other people’s weaknesses than to admit their own.
Comment by ssj — July 12, 2010 @ 9:20 pm
Just to generalize the discussion a bit. Petunia, I agree completely with those that have pointed out that the WoW is currently about creating a bright line of group membership. Given its history it is pretty clear that it switched from primarily a counsel for health to one of obedience designed to remind members daily not so much of giving up physical pleasures but as a symbol of your membership compared to the world at large. If you think about it between alcohol, coffee and tea almost every society in the world has very ingrained social rituals regarding one of the three substances. The WoW is probably among the most high profile things that people know about us and we know about each other. We ask people to give up this social currency as a symbol of membership. As a plus it also emphasizes a key doctrine of the Church, that is that the body and spirit together make the soul.
One other thing I would like you to consider is that this process of creating group cohesion through such practices as what you eat, wear, say or do is not Mormon at all. Most religions have some form of these practices that indicate membership. Some ask you to be vegetarian. Some ask you to wear certain clothes. Some ask you to fast for a month. Even more generally, every group you belong to has such boundaries in place. Think of your friends or teams you have been a member of. Think about any company you might have worked for. Think about being an American or French. Think long enough and you can find something as silly as “drinking coffee” that acts to place you either more to the center or on the periphery of the group.
Creating group identity and that is a universal human activity. You will never get away from it. Any group you decide you want to be a part of will require some sign of membership from you. It is up to you to decide whether being included is worth the price. It tends to be that the stronger the cohesion of the group the more clear the boundaries are. The Mormon church has a remarkable amount of social cohesion which is one of its biggest strengths as well as one of its biggest difficulties.
The tension that many of us here on this website regarding our membership in the church revolves around the question of what we perceived is required to be “in”. For me some things like following the Word of Wisdom feel like they have relatively little cost for what the church in various ways brings me. Others, such as believing the move on Prop 8 or the idea that ban on Blacks having the priesthood was a God-driven idea are things would be too costly for me as it violates my sense of right and wrong. I don’t accept those and am willing to pay the price in where it places me relative to the center or periphery of the church. Being a feminist is the same. At this moment in time it puts us more on the periphery in some locales more than others. Again I am fine with that.
Best to you in figuring out how to navigate your own way through the thicket.
Comment by RAH — July 12, 2010 @ 9:21 pm
Somehow I see the statement “you know coffee is… nevermind” was thought out. Most IM’s etc have you hit “enter” when you are ready to send a message.
Him hitting enter nullified the “nevermind” part of it. To me, the inclusion of the “nevermind” was in part to diffuse looking preachy, however, it didn’t really work did it?
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 9:22 pm
April…it’s referring to Mfranti not appreciating his mention of being a priest. It could be that he is developing some sort of unrighteous dominion,…but it seems more likely that he just takes it seriously.
does that make sense?
Comment by britt k — July 12, 2010 @ 9:24 pm
re 38 Britt k what does that have to do with her taking the “power and responsibility from God is not to be taken lightly”?
That has nothing to do with his Priesthood…. nothing at all except maybe to tell her that because he has the Phood she has to listen to him, which in my book is a bunch of crap.
It also has nothing to do with her being “prepared how to respect her own power and responsibility as a priestess…”
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 9:28 pm
I think members like to police each other because it makes them feel special inside, a little bit of a power trip. It’s so easy to fall prey to this habit because we assume it’s the right thing to do. It goes to the question of just how much are we each others’ brother’s keeper. Personally I’m a fan of as little brother keeping as possible, but only because I’ve been burned by people doing a wee bit too much brother keeping. It also tends to get into Pharisaical territory. Just kindly tell them to butt off.
Comment by Dan — July 12, 2010 @ 9:29 pm
Connecting the two seems disingenuous to me… but I will agree to disagree.
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 9:31 pm
as for coffee and caffeine in general, the problem is that caffeine is an addictive chemical. I drink Dr. Pepper right now, and I probably drink about as much caffeine in my Dr. Pepper as you do in your coffee. If you were to stop drinking coffee right now, you’ll go through a withdrawal period lasting a few days of bad headaches and general malaise. That’s because your body has become used to having caffeine in the system, and when it lacks it, there is a negative response to not keeping that same level of caffeine in the system. Caffeine is generally a mild chemical and doesn’t do any real lasting harm to the body. But it does tether you down.
Comment by Dan — July 12, 2010 @ 9:31 pm
Your friend said ‘never mind’ but you asking him to finish his question. That does not sound very preachy. Are you sure you were not trying to teach him something? Like good manners, or not judging?
How much time do we (including me) spend talking about the sins of others, alive or dead?
if you can figure out why we do that, you will have answered your own question.
Comment by Pnut — July 12, 2010 @ 9:31 pm
She didn’t ask him to finish his sentence… she finished it for him because it was obvious what he was trying to say….
I think if she was trying to teach him manners or not judging, she did well, too few people have those qualities anymore.
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 9:34 pm
I am wondering if drinking coffee would make it so you couldn’t get a temple recommend?
Comment by wistfulblue — July 12, 2010 @ 9:38 pm
It could definitely be an age thing. I’m assuming based on your age and him mentioning that he’s a priest that your friend is around 16/17.
I was that policing friend when I was 16. I’m not that policing person at 24, I promise. Would you believe I actually went up to a guy in our ward during the Homecoming Dance, which happened to be scheduled during Priesthood Session of Conference (I grew up in Illinois, so school dances weren’t arranged around Church events like they are in Utah) and offered to drive him to the stake center- 45 minutes away- to make sure he went to Conference because that’s where he was “supposed to be,” of course.
Why did I do it? I was very Molly Mormon. My parents had groomed me into a policing person- because that’s what they did themselves. It was lots of self-righteousness. It was lots of high horse-ness. Policing makes you feel better about yourself- your own sins look lesser because they aren’t as obvious as others’. Plus you can always justify it as “righteous anger.”
I shouldn’t have done it. I’ve apologized to that young man since, but it was still an A-hole thing to have done in the first place.
But sometimes people grow up and realize that their parents weren’t right and that the person they were becoming was heinous. He may figure it out. Unfortunately, they don’t always- since my parents are still like that in their 40s. But maybe they will eventually. After all, having me as a child is testing their limits.
Comment by TopHat — July 12, 2010 @ 9:39 pm
#30, No, April, I think you got it right the first time. You wouldn’t believe how many of my friends have serious hangups from their pre-marriage days affecting their relationship with their spouse.
Petunia, to me, there’s a big difference between making a personal choice, and flaunting it. If someone does something to rebel, then they’re still being controlled by those who they are rebelling against.
I could get into all sorts of reasons why I personally think that the Word of Wisdom was always intended to be simply good advice “for the weak and weakest of all saints”. For starters, it was trendy among churches at that point to be teetotalers, so it wasn’t exactly a novel thought. The real change happened, though, over tobacco. When the brotheren started meeting in the room above Emma’s kitchen, which meant that their chewing tobacco juice would run down the walls, into the kitchen, not to mention the disgusting mess upstairs. Emma kvetched (understandably) until Joseph went to God about it.
For the early members of the church, it was most definitely a suggestion. During the pioneer days, Orren Porter Rockwell founded the first of several breweries, and the area around Toquerville was filled with vineyards, the products of which were sold in ZCMI. My grandmother, a dyed-in-the-wool product of the Mexican colonies kept a box of black tea in her cupboard until the day she died for bellyaches and headaches. Her mother kept a bottle of whiskey next to her tea.
To answer your end question, I would say that a huge part of the reason why members get so determined to preach is because we hide from our own history. We dust off a handful of “feel good” stories,and neglect the true diversity experienced in the early church. As long as we insist on telling the fairy-tail version of events, the church be full of individuals who are trying to continue an image that does not really exist.
This is why we have so many families up to their ears in debt, why the misuse of antidepressants and prescription drugs(and even some illegal ones) is reaching epidemic proportions in some parts of Utah, and why people will insist on keeping a white-knuckle death grip on tiny details. It’s modern pharisees…and 9 times out of 10, they’re horribly unhappy people, for all the show. To me, and I’m fairly sure to God, it doesn’t matter if you don’t drink coffee, attend every last meeting, or wear garments every moment of every day, if you don’t treat your fellow human beings with respect and love(and don’t even get me started on the fact that this young man tried to pull priesthood authority on you).
/rant
Comment by JWalton — July 12, 2010 @ 9:46 pm
The answer would be ‘absolutely’.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 12, 2010 @ 9:50 pm
What a great post, having not gone through the YW program or having any influence from the church in my teens, I really appreciate your perspective.
For some people preaching to you may make them feel better. I get an attitude of “I’m being good, so why aren’t you?” from some people when they see me doing things I shouldn’t. For some the concept that you are just as happy, but not being righteous outright annoys them, since, you know the only way to be happy is to be exactly like them.
In general I think that people mean well when they get all uppity over a principle. But most members forget that the only agency they have the right to monitor, judge, or govern is their own. I share your prerogative, and I can say, that you responded well to your friend. Not caring what others think, I also, would have given him what for, for trying to preach to me on a public forum. Your mama raised ya well : )
Comment by Andiep — July 12, 2010 @ 9:55 pm
The answer to that would be ‘absolutely’.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 12, 2010 @ 9:56 pm
#44, I agree she did it well. She exercised righteous judgment, looked out for the church, tried to save her brother from the sin of preachiness. good for her.
Comment by Pnut — July 12, 2010 @ 9:57 pm
I still think these two kids did a pretty good job at discussing their views. Her friend used “nevermind” to indicate that he wasn’t going to push it or discuss it if she didn’t want to. If Petunia didn’t want to discuss it it could have gone like this:
“you know that coffee is……never mind”
“yeah, I know, thanks. what are you doing today? I’m supposed to go with my aunt and cousins to the science center”
or maybe
“you know that coffee is….never mind”
“lol, let’s leave it at nevermind. did you go to church on sunday? what’s everyone doing these days?”
Comment by jks — July 12, 2010 @ 9:59 pm
yes, april I tried both splenda and truvia. I’m thinking it’s an acquired taste?
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 12, 2010 @ 10:04 pm
reader Rachel (13) have you tried Pero? Same as Postum.
I have to say, when I read the part about him saying he was doing his duty as a priest, I thought that was going to be the main topic of the post and discussion. Red flag indeed. Hopefully it really is more benign than it sounded and he is just a concerned friend.
As to the coffee issue. I agree with it being a way to be more visible in your outward adherence to church standards, but I have to say, it really bugs me for the reasons you mention Petunia. It is MUCH healthier than any soda, and I firmly believe that Diet Coke is more addictive and harmful many times over. I’ve had periods of my life where I drank coffee, and times where I drank Diet Coke. And it was much harder to get off the Coke. It’s not just the caffeine that is addictive. Phenylalanine is a neurotoxin! I’m sorry to any that this may offend, but I’ve had my share of being made to feel guilty over certain health choices that I make from people in the church (none against the WoW - I was even once interrogated by a missionary over my choice to be vegetarian at one point in my life) but when I try to share my opinion of the danger of Coke, I get shut down so fast my head spins.
I’m not the type to call people out on their choices, but when mine don’t get the same respect, I get a little irked. Recently, when I was sitting around a lunch with extended family on vacation (all members) I watched, as a passive observer, a lengthy conversation they had about Diet Coke. Not ABOUT it per se, but about who was drinking it, who could have a taste of who’s, who’s last bottle was in the fridge, whether the teenagers could have a sip of their parents, and on and on. And no one really noticed how singular the conversation had become. It was fascinating and horrifying, because if you didn’t know that they were talking about Diet Coke, you could easily have wondered whether they all had some horrible addiction to some terrible drug.
Preachiness is only tolerated when it is about approved subjects IMO, and not necessarily about when something is actually harmful or truly concerning. Yes, coffee and cigarettes are not the same things. And yes, I enjoy coffee flavored ice cream on occasion, green tea with a greasy asian meal, and I’ll cook with alcohol without apologies. And I don’t feel guilty or that I need to confess such things. I understand the need for lines in the sand with membership in the church, but my adherence to the spirit of the WoW and not the interpreted letter of the law is between me and God and how well I take care of the body I have been given.
Rant over.
Comment by Corktree — July 12, 2010 @ 10:18 pm
Isn’t the question to enter the temple “Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?” If you don’t think green tea or coffee qualify under the direct words used in the scriptures, then couldn’t you answer “yes” to this question?
All the WOW says is “And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.” It doesn’t list coffee. If we are going on the premise that scripture is law, and not one of the prophets opinions, than you could validate the use of coffee in your life and still be worthy of the temple.
Thats what I love about the temple questions. They ask you what you think about your worthiness. You don’t have to spell it all out, and a lot of it is left to your own personal interpretation.
Thats part of the reason why I sympathize with this post so much. The guy friend had the best intentions, yet at the same time, our culture is so frickin bossy and uptight about things. We are preachy and nosy. Its part of our culture.
Comment by Emily A. — July 12, 2010 @ 10:20 pm
Corktree–Amen.
Comment by JWalton — July 12, 2010 @ 10:20 pm
huh?
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 10:21 pm
#52, true, jks. Asking a friend if she wants your opinion is not ve dr y preachy or intrusive.
I was accused of preaching when I tried to tell a friend whose bf was degrading and beating her thst she had rights. Guilty as charged.
Comment by Pnut — July 12, 2010 @ 10:21 pm
ME TOO!!!
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 10:22 pm
When I read the “his duty as a priest” part, I just thought he had a pretty idealized notion of what it means to “watch over the church always.” In a teenage world of black and white, I suppose he thought he was being her “savior” and the churches “savior” at the same time.
Nothing like a teenage night in shining armor ready to draw his opinionated sword to save the church by smiting down the sinner with his words. Bah.
Comment by Emily A. — July 12, 2010 @ 10:29 pm
Yeah, the priesthood thing is what really got to me too. Lots of people in and out of the church get preachy, but things reach a more serious level with the weight of institutional authority over them. In my experience, the secular, atheist-types I know are a lot less preachy because their opinions are only their opinions. In the church, such things are not just one person’s choice but are instead often seen as God’s absolute will.
And maybe it’s just because I’m cynical right now, but I wonder if he’d've pulled the priesthood if he wasn’t talking to a girl.
Comment by ChrisKay — July 12, 2010 @ 10:30 pm
great point!
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 10:32 pm
Ok, I’ll bite.
This was what really got me. Having never been really acquainted with the programs of the Priesthood and having a convert husband, this is a head scratcher. Do they have to memorize this stuff? Why did he think this was relevant to coffee drinking? Major guilt inducer. I wouldn’t take kindly to a “friend” telling me something like that, but I can understand an overzealous youth.
It’s whether or not he’s being told to go around policing his friends based on this that is the problem, no? Isn’t this where the preachiness gets out of control - because someone feels they HAVE to, or it’s their duty, and not just out of concern and love? It’s hard to judge this kid’s intentions, but I have to wonder if this is representative of something else. I don’t really know. And isn’t it EVERY members job to help people come to Christ? Bleh.
Comment by Corktree — July 12, 2010 @ 10:35 pm
RE 25
Mfranti, my point is his concern as a friend. Let’s see if I can write out a logical train of thought here…
People who regret large mistakes can often trace those back to small ones. What if she started with occasional coffees, and decided that champagne on New Year’s was a good thing to try, or a glass of red wine on her first trip to Paris. I know, I know. The “slippery slope” thing. Bear with me.
What if her friends had never questioned her decisions that they were wary of? What if she found herself in an ugly spot and wondered why her friends had never been friends to her? Any person on the street can be civil and cordial and “respect privacy”, but aren’t friends (and by extension your community, ie. neighborhood and ward) supposed to have more concern for one another than the person who scans your food at the grocery store has for you?
The friendships that I value are with those who will voice concerns (or straight up call me out) when they see something that seems wrong.
Comment by ErinAnn — July 12, 2010 @ 10:37 pm
corktree, you adressed everything that went on in my head when those red lights were flashing.
great comment.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 10:37 pm
Has anyone else noticed what a F’d up “shame cycle” is prevalent in the church? Corktree, your comment was right on the mark and i feel angry when I realize that I was guilt-ed into obedience and compliance for years when almost none of it was doctrine that pertained to my salvation. I was guilt-ed by members throughout my whole childhood.
This young man’s comments reminds me of what I really hate about this culture. We need to love instead of preaching things we think are important and stroking our own ego. In the BoM it says
Apparently he thought he was calling her to repentance, but my whole beef (and apparently unresolved issues from my past) lean towards the fact that its none of his business. His job as a priest is to preach repentance and faith, and that means repentance for real sins listed in the scriptures, not petty opinions that don’t really matter. *SIGH* I have to stop ranting now. Sorry. Time to go back to food therapy.
Comment by Emily A. — July 12, 2010 @ 10:47 pm
Erin, I suppose if she were sneaking out of the house until 3am or slamming vodka shots after a party or having unprotected sex while totally shitfaced, I might expect her friends to remind her that she’s out of control (though, that’s a tall order).
Petunia is the type of friend to remind her own friends (lds and non) that those types of behaviors are not good for a young person.
But she doesn’t invoke religion.
It’s usually from the standpoint that (real case study here) the young person’s parents are really good to them and it hurts the parents when they do those things. she’s reminding them that their actions are hurting other people.
or that they’re just being douchebags (tools)
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 10:51 pm
The Word of Wisdom has always been a bone of contention for the church members. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were both fond of beer and wine. It wasn’t until the early 20th century that the WoW was widely enforced and made necessary for entrance to the temple.
It’s also interesting to me that the way the WoW is interpreted is so far off from what it actually says. The WoW bans hot drinks, which is interpreted as tea and coffee… but herbal tea and hot chocolate are ok? They’re both hot drinks too, aren’t they? What about iced coffee and tea?
It also says to eat meat sparingly, but most of the Mormons I know eat meat daily.
Adherence to the WoW doesn’t make you a good person, but it’s easier to judge somebody by whether or not they smoke than it is to take a good look at their character.
Comment by Andrea — July 12, 2010 @ 10:56 pm
What is the point of mortality if we aren’t allowed to make mistakes? Agency is the law, and no one is perfect. Who doesn’t trace large mistakes back to smaller ones? Drinking coffee doesn’t make anyone more likely to drink alcohol unless you are implying that drinking coffee IS breaking the WOW.
If it Is breaking the WOW, then it might be used as an excuse to participate in other things and abandon your control over your lust for alcohol simply out of the principle that you aren’t going to live the WOW. Personally, I don’t think drinking coffee occasionally is breaking the WOW. And no, I don’t drink coffee. Never had a sip in my life.
This is exactly the mentality of church members that bothers me. Just because someone choses to live their life differently does not mean they need to fear that they will lose control and do something horrible later on. That is the fear mentality and it is grounded in shame. Drinking coffee does not lead to other illicit addictions anymore than drinking diet coke does.
Comment by Emily A. — July 12, 2010 @ 10:57 pm
dunno why but this comment made me think, what’s worse? a cocktail every Saturday night with your spouse or a gambling addiction? but many, many, many a temple recommend holders play poker and place all manner of bets (to the point that it’s an addiction) and nobody blinks.
but if someone admitted they had a couple of margarits with their hunny, there’d be all sorts of awkward silence.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:02 pm
Drinking diet coke leads to blogging and commenting which we all know destroys lives.
Comment by Travis — July 12, 2010 @ 11:04 pm
Now, I know that my tone can come across as super holy here, so try and read this in a relaxed voice, ‘kay?
Mel, you sound like you’re in your usual take-no-prisoners bloging form.
I would hope that Petunia’s friends would say something before she was having drunk sex with the football team.
My friends in HS nearly always invoked my religion when I did something outside of church standards. They would even discuss parties in front of me then say, “Oh, we didn’t invite you because you’re Mormon.” She has chosen (I’m assuming from her short post) to be a member of the LDS church and as such people within and without the church have expectations of her behavior.
I find it sadly amusing when people cry, “Don’t tell me how to live my religion!”, when that religion has a very clear set of expectations.
Sometimes people will swear in meetings at my husband’s work (well, they swear frequently), but sometimes they will give a little apology to him immediately before or after, or someone will ask another person to “tone it down” for his sake.
Petunia’s a Mormon. That gives people expectations of her behavior. When I don’t go to church on Sunday, my neighbors downstairs ask me why I didn’t.
Comment by ErinAnn — July 12, 2010 @ 11:05 pm
I’ll take your point, ErinAnn, that expressing concern for a friend is important, and often neglected. I know of far too many women who have been hurt or sexually abused by men whom their friends knew to be trouble and never did anything to stop it. But coffee is quite far from self-destructive behavior. I know of no serious health risks from coffee–nowhere near the level of alcohol or cigarettes or even fatty foods. I don’t know Petunia or her friend, but given the situation, it strikes me more like he was policing the boundaries of Mormon normalcy than expressing genuine concern for her well-being.
Also, having been a long-time reader of fMh, I’ve developed a serious distaste for having scripture quoted at me. I don’t know if this is what happened (as opposed to referring to scripture to make a point), but that’s what it sounds like.
Comment by ChrisKay — July 12, 2010 @ 11:06 pm
below the belt
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:08 pm
I think a big part of the problem is that some things in the church are easy to quantify (like don’t drink coffee) and some things are very hard to quantify (like get enough sleep, eat fruits in their season, help the poor, mourn with those that mourn, etc). When there’s a “requirement” of the gospel that’s easy to draw a nice neat little line around, people really fixate on it and sometimes elevate it to a level of much more importance than it was ever meant to have. Most of the nice neat little line things, like not drinking coffee, also happen to be very minor things. But because it’s so obvious to figure out whether you’re doing those things or not, some people think they are really important. And because they think those things are so important, they really worry when other people do them because they’ve elevated them to the level of Major Sins in their minds, and they’re honestly worried about your eternal salvation.
Drinking or not drinking coffee is a pretty minor thing, in my opinion. If you know in your heart that you’re doing the big things of the gospel, those things that are hard to define and hard to neatly package up, then I think you’re living the gospel, coffee or no coffee. If I were you, I would tell your friend that you appreciate his concern, that you know you aren’t perfect, but that you’re doing your best to live your religion as you feel directed by the spirit, and that you actually are trying to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him, even if it looks like you’re going about it in a different way than he is.
Comment by Kathleen — July 12, 2010 @ 11:09 pm
Andrea — I love WoW discussions — especially if I get to teach the lesson! It’s amusing to watch the class start to squirm with discomfort when you start quoting it. Food and drink is SOOO touchy with us humans, eh? As soon as I start discussing things like soda, “eat meat sparingly”, frequent desserts… I lose eye contact with half the class as they start to mutter and squirm. It’s pretty fascinating.
Don’t mess with the vices. haha.
Comment by ErinAnn — July 12, 2010 @ 11:10 pm
Man, this really surprises me. Maybe I’m just feeling magnanimous today but this is a kid, right?
Petunia, did you really take your friend’s comments as some blowhard guy trying to shove his priesthood authority in your face? In your experience with him, is the guy a jerk who tries to make you feel bad or would you take something that he said at face value?
Are we really holding it against this guy (presumably a friend, right?) that he has an inkling about what a priest actually is? I mean, he didn’t pull that out of thin air and I think the caricature of him as some total zealot is a tad unfair.
“that “making out/having premarital sex = bad” … even then, both those things in context do have exceptions.” LOL Am I missing something? Making out obviously doesn’t equate premarital sex. And, I’m at a loss when premarital sex is okay in the eyes of God. Maybe I’m reading this wrong.
I neglected to mention that for every purported health benefit in wine, certain teas, etc. there are usually other foods/beverages that give comparable results. And, don’t believe every health report you read. It’s great to take all this info with a healthy dose of cynicism. But, if you’re drinking coffee because you just plain want to do it, that’s a different story.
Comment by Lupita — July 12, 2010 @ 11:11 pm
ok, i’ll bite (and i won’t take prisoners. promise)
then why aren’t the other parts of the WoW strictly enforced ? Good grief, I’m driving around the valley Saturday and noticed a bunch of new burger shops.
obviously, there’s a demand for burgers (meat) in Utah or else there wouldn’t be so many new Burger joints opening up.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:12 pm
54–Pero, Roma, Roast-a-Roma (Celestial Seasonings herbal tea).
Sadly, none as good as Postum.
Perhaps we get so worked up about WofW issues because they are one of the key Mormon identifiers. Most people outside of the church vaguely know that we don’t drink and smoke as a rule. It sets us apart, like keeping a kosher kitchen (but much less work). If someone else who we perceive to be in our group does not conform to our imagined group characteristics, we feel our own identity threatened.
Comment by reader Rachel — July 12, 2010 @ 11:13 pm
ChrisKay,
You also have to keep the environment of the conversation in perspective: Two active, LDS teenagers in Utah. (Am I right, Mel? Petunia?) This boy is prepping for his mission — he is about to SAVE people! He’s got to start at home!
Of course, perhaps he has the hots for Petunia and wants to make sure she’s “temple material” when he gets home.
Comment by ErinAnn — July 12, 2010 @ 11:14 pm
I think a lot of preachiness comes from a need to justify one’s own choices, and it’s not just among Mormons.
I have a coworker (A) who does not plan to ever have children. I have another coworker (B, not LDS) who frequently tries to convert A to Team Kids. I think when others choose something that is contrary to our belief system (WoW, kids or none, Dem or Rep) we take it as a critique of our own choices and become defensive. Often, the bluster is just cover for one’s own doubts, and the preaching is as much to convince one’s self as it is to change another person’s mind.
Or it could be concern. Or self-righteousness.
Just know it’s not only LDS people.
Comment by Vieve — July 12, 2010 @ 11:16 pm
ugh, lets assume he’s being all peter prieshoody for htose reasons, he really could use some humility.
and this:
below the belt again! (i will gladly admit that i’m NOT ready to think about my kid goin’ to the temple)
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:17 pm
78 - Mfranti, see my comment on WoW discussions in #76. And, as Emily A. said in #55, people are pretty good about justifying their way through the WoW question.
Comment by ErinAnn — July 12, 2010 @ 11:17 pm
I think that it’s very possible that the young man, however misguided or awkward in his attempts to discuss the issue, was being completely sincere and Christ-like in his response. He saw himself as a priesthood holder charged with watching over the church and attending to its members. He felt that he had a responsibility to expound on her query “against our religion?” Although he initiated the debate/discussion when he said “you know coffee is . . . nevermind” I think that she clearly escalated the debate with appeals to medical science, logic, and rationalizing her habit by comparing/contrasting coffee with Coke.
Interestingly, I wonder what her reaction would be if rather than a young male church friend it was a bishop or a counselor who said those words. Or a stake president. Or the prophet. It sounds like she was taking issue with the message more than the messenger. Perhaps a prophet preaches his beliefs “in an annoying and disrespectful way.” Maybe the General Authorities “police the actions of other members.” So, I guess my question is, are you more annoyed by the message that coffee is against the Word of Wisdom, or by the style or manner in which the young men discussed the issue with you, or by the fact that he was a young man and not a church leader, or a combination of the above?
Just curious.
Great post, by the way! Very impressive. I’ve also enjoyed many of the comments.
Comment by Mark — July 12, 2010 @ 11:20 pm
Yeah, ErinAnn, there’s a good chance he’s excited about priesthood and the chance to use it to save people, and I suppose there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. I’m probably projecting my own concerns and frustrations here.
Comment by ChrisKay — July 12, 2010 @ 11:21 pm
I’m sure if he hadn’t pulled the “I’m a Priesthood holder” card on you and quoted scriptures you would not have felt so “slighted”. Misogyny stings even when covered by supposed goodwill, and that is what it was he felt he had a right to police you.
Plus this isn’t about the coffee and Mormons, but Mormons chide none-Mormons on this subject too. Even people they know who have never been Mormon. It’s a weird thing to get up in arms about when there are so many big issues in Utah, and Mormon life.
There are condescending people everywhere, one day you might not have a house big enough, a car good enough, and your kids will look funny. Dealing with why these judgmental people get under your skin now will save you a load of debt and your credit rating.
Comment by Sydni — July 12, 2010 @ 11:22 pm
Ah Mark, good point.
Petunia, would this have been an entirely different conversation if this was a girl friend? Or are we making much ado about your friend’s church office?
Comment by Lupita — July 12, 2010 @ 11:24 pm
re #77… it was an example pulled out of the air. Maybe not the best one, but still… there are instances when God wouldn’t hold it against you if you had premarital sex ie when it wasn’t your choice… you know, that thing called rape that so many victims blame themselves for? And while I know that making out isn’t anywhere near the same level as sex the LDS church seems to think it is.
And the fact that a doctor recommended Green Tea to help with the Insulin Resistance… sorry, I’m going to take my doctors recommendation rather than choke down a concentrated pill every day TYVM. Besides, who are we to judge each other?
THIS is what gets me… the fact that so many seem so eager to condemn when they don’t know the background or the reasons for a decision. Even then, it really is none of their business… I could see the friend asking her why she drank coffee… I don’t see moving religion into the discussion especially when the friend knows she already knows the stance of the church on it.
The preachy-ness is very off-putting for anyone (including my own parents) if they want to have a real effect they start a tactful conversation about what they are concerned about and then gently ask me my reasoning. That way I know it was done with nothing but love and concern. Lectures don’t get too far after a certain age, and I’m sure that a lecture from a friend in the teen years goes even less far. At least with me it did.
In the end, there is genuine concern and then there is everything else. Everything else needs to go jump off a cliff in my book… but that is only my opinion.
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 11:27 pm
I can’t wait until the day when a 12 year old Deacon tells me that drinking Mountain Dew is wrong and it’s his duty as a priesthood holder to tell me that. Because I’ll tell him that as a mother in Zion (it’s just as important as holding the priesthood, right? Thats what they tell us) to shut the hell up and respect his elders.
And I agree….Petunia’s friend wouldn’t have brought up being a Priest if he was talking to another boy.
Comment by Risa — July 12, 2010 @ 11:30 pm
Thank you! I knew there was something else about this exchange that got to me. Of course a young Mormon living in Utah knows that coffee goes against church norms. Entering the conversation this way made it a bit condescending and lecture-y. Asking her why she drinks coffee could have led to a discussion of faith, religious norms, etc. where he could have made his point and respected hers more easily.
Comment by ChrisKay — July 12, 2010 @ 11:32 pm
Love it!
Comment by ChrisKay — July 12, 2010 @ 11:32 pm
HA HA! Excellent.
Comment by Emily A. — July 12, 2010 @ 11:34 pm
I think this is the heart of the issue.
Comment by Stephanie — July 12, 2010 @ 11:34 pm
She repeatedly encouraged him to share his thoughts. At least four times.
This story inspires me. Next time I go to my AA group, I’m gonna ask them why they are so into each other’s business, why they don’t respect boundaries. They should all just chill and have a drink. But that’s just my opinion.
Comment by Pnut — July 12, 2010 @ 11:37 pm
at AA people go specifically for help and moral support in overcoming something…
if Petunia were his friend with expressly this purpose and they had a verbal agreement on it I would see no problem with the exchange.
Comment by April — July 12, 2010 @ 11:39 pm
Pnut, I’m sorry, I missed your point. Please clarify.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:41 pm
Nice post, Petunia! It’s good to see you’ve got your mom’s blogging skill.
Kathleen (#75), I think you really nailed the point (also mentioned by others) that we tend to focus on what’s easy to see and measure in our line drawing as to who’s in and who’s out rather than on what’s most important.
Sydni (#86), I agree with Stephanie that this seems central. It’s the misogyny. Like Mark’s first point (#84), I kinda feel bad for him; he probably just sat through some lessons about how important it is for him to take seriously the bit about “watching over the church always” in the D&C. But that probably doesn’t take any of the sting out of it.
Petunia, I wish I had a good answer for you. The lesson I take from this as someone who might be in your friend’s position is that before trying to comment on someone else’s behavior, I need to be a truly good friend and show clear evidence that I’m not trying to preach just to satisfy my own desire to be more correct. And as others have mentioned earlier (can’t find the comment), and as you experienced, it’s a big turnoff to be preached at with scriptures.
Comment by Ziff — July 12, 2010 @ 11:45 pm
RE 34 and 36 - I’m with you. Well said, both of you. I don’t know why we are commanded to abstain from coffee and tea really but I do it because I have faith there is a reason for it. I definitely see reasons for alcohol being prohibited in the WOW.
RE 45 - drinking coffee can keep you from getting a temple recommend. If anyone knows of a Bishop or Stake President who would say otherwise, I’d love to know what he said regarding the situation.
RE 55 - The missionary discussions and church lesson manuals teach that coffee is against the WOW. Coffee, tea, and tabacco are the three items specifically listed. The word coffee is not in the scripture in D&C but there is plenty out there mentioned by numerous prophets and leaders that indicate that it is against the WOW.
I don’t determine my frienships by what people drink or eat. While the church hasn’t been clear on the caffeineted soda issue, I don’t personally don’t have a problem with indulging in a pepsi every now and then and I don’t mind cooking with alcohol either. My friend who is an active member, drinks non-alcoholic beer and he is fine with it and I don’t have a problem with it either and if I did, is it really my place to say anything? No.
I think your friend was well meaning. He may not have a member friend who has said they were drinking coffee before he just said and did what he thought he should. He’s young and figuring things out too.
Comment by Hillary — July 12, 2010 @ 11:48 pm
I think this is a good guideline for us to remember, Ziff. It would make disagreements and conversations a lot more respectful.
Comment by ChrisKay — July 12, 2010 @ 11:48 pm
Ugh - It’s late and I can’t type. It should read:
I don’t personally have a problem with indulging in a pepsi…
Comment by Hillary — July 12, 2010 @ 11:49 pm
This is something else that bothers me about the view that members take on WoW issues. There is an inherent “badness” about going against one person’s view of it because it goes against what we hold collectively as acceptable, yes, , but I really dislike it when that judgment is extended to people outSIDE of the membership requirements (non members). It bothers me when my children (not taking any cues from ME) assume that someone that they see drinking coffee or wine is bad. It’s doubly hard to help them understand why their non-member grandmother drinks it, but from their comments about it, I know that they are getting their opinions from PRIMARY! It’s a lot of work to undo that kind of teaching.
Comment by Corktree — July 12, 2010 @ 11:49 pm
88 Whew, thanks for clarifying. I knew I must’ve read it wrong. I will say that I have never heard of rape ever being uttered in the same sentence as breaking the law of chastity. That would be horrifying.
Hey, do we get to hear from Petunia again?
Comment by Lupita — July 12, 2010 @ 11:49 pm
y’all know I edited the post a little bit, right? it’s hers with a little buffing from mom. she originally went with the coffee vs coke thing but I persuaded her to go with the her original question to me this morning: Why are [some religious people] Mormons so preachy? Because that’s what our conversation was about.
and just so you all know, I treated her guest post no different than I do other guest posts. If there’s a better angle to take a post, I suggest the author go with it.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:50 pm
and ziff, I can’t blog. someone reminded me of it today. yeah, me ego is tender right now.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:51 pm
Actually Emily, that may not be what you meant, but it’s what I was thinking about as I read that.
Comment by Corktree — July 12, 2010 @ 11:52 pm
Please let me know if I crossed any lines, mfranti. I nelieve I stayed within the lines you perscibed, I wrote nothing I would not want seen by my own precocius teenager, but you are the mom here so I submit to your judgment and dont want to continue this line without your *express* approval.
Comment by Pnut — July 12, 2010 @ 11:54 pm
#104 - mfranti - screw ‘em. People don’t know jack.
Comment by Risa — July 12, 2010 @ 11:55 pm
She’s lurking but it’s a lot to take in for a kid. We’ve been chatting about it all night.
She is formulating a comment but she’s new so it might take her until morning.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:56 pm
101 I completely agree, Corktree. Ds made a comment to me that his teacher drinks a lot of Starbucks so must not be Christian (he didn’t get that from me, dadgum Primary
We had a good discussion about it. I made sure he knew only those who drink Pepsi aren’t Christian
Comment by Lupita — July 12, 2010 @ 11:56 pm
And all irony aside, I am actually a recovering lush, and in AA, taking things one day at a time.
Comment by Pnut — July 12, 2010 @ 11:57 pm
no seriously, i missed your point.
Comment by mfranti — July 12, 2010 @ 11:57 pm
Someone’s dissing mfranti? What is the world coming to? Everyone knows we need more posts from the woman!
Thanks, Petunia. You’ve obviously given us all a lot to think about, which is what a great post usually does. Wasn’t this your best FHE ever?
Comment by Lupita — July 13, 2010 @ 12:01 am
But Dr Pepper is cool right? We’re cool? Okay cool.
Also, this
Is why Risa is awesome
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 12:03 am
You know, I disagree on the whole “misogyny” thing. I think if this boy had been having this conversation with another young priest he would have still brought up religion, specifically his priesthood office. More of a, “But you’re a Priest! You are supposed to be bringing souls to Christ. How can you do that when you don’t follow the Word of Wisdom??” To me he came across as genuinely concerned, and using the tools that he had been given.
Comment by ErinAnn — July 13, 2010 @ 12:04 am
My point is that I than God for psome people who annoyed and continue to offend my pride with their preaching. I might be dead without them.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 12:04 am
re 104 Mfranti…. do I need to beat the tar out of someone…? Whomever says you can’t blog apparently has ego issues they are dealing with. You write wonderful posts!
Comment by April — July 13, 2010 @ 12:04 am
#104 Mel WTH Let me at ‘em.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 12:05 am
mfranti, re: #104, I’m sorry you got negative feedback. I think I’ve seen a mountain of evidence to the contrary, though.
Comment by Ziff — July 13, 2010 @ 12:05 am
“But Dr Pepper is cool right? We’re cool? Okay cool.”
Like I’d tell him his dad isn’t a Christian! (note–Travis is not ds’s father lest anyone start judging me
Comment by Lupita — July 13, 2010 @ 12:06 am
Aw, thanks Travis
I’m glad somebody is finally recognizing my awesomeness around here. Totally kidding.
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 12:06 am
you guys are sweet. I know my place. it’s not as a poster but as a commenter/moderator.
it’s why y’all don’t hear from me except when I have something to say about the kid or, in this case, the kid has something to say.
got lots of ideas though…
let this be the last comment on this subject. i’m getting twitchy.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 12:06 am
And that if a tacit agreement is good enough for AA then it should be good enough between two Mormon friends.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 12:07 am
Hey, you’re the only facebook friend I have here in Utah i’m not related to. Need UT snacker!
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 12:08 am
Pnut, I think this is a great point. Is it too preachy if I wish you the best of luck?
Comment by Lupita — July 13, 2010 @ 12:08 am
she’s totally NOT kidding. she’s eating it all up.
yum!
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 12:09 am
Travis~lol and I so needed that.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 12:09 am
Travis, are you new here? because we just had a mini utah snacker and le grande Idasnacker.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 12:10 am
That’s what I do. I have no serious point to make (yet) I’m just here to make jokes and make cookies.
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 12:11 am
Yes I am new. I just moved to Ogden at the end of last month.
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 12:11 am
re 122 I think the difference is while support is appreciated between friends just as it is in AA, in AA the support is for a specific thing. With friends it’s more of a shot gun approach to support due to not knowing exactly what each of your friends needs support in… therefore before becoming preachy, you need to make sure that the reception would be beneficial to them and not just make you look like you are trying to change your friend into what you want them to be.
Comment by April — July 13, 2010 @ 12:12 am
Next UT SLC snacker… I’ll be there, whenever it is!
Comment by April — July 13, 2010 @ 12:14 am
Love the jokes, could use a cookie or two.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 12:14 am
if my best mormon friend, lisa, questioned my use of coffee, tea or the occasional cocktail or insert any proscribed item here (except hard drugs), i’d prolly tell her to, politely of course, stow-it.
it’s a good thing my friends are grown ups and have a healthy understanding of choices grown up make.
now, if i was abusing alcohol, credit cards, card games, et al., i would be grateful for their concern and take it to heart because it means i have a problem that is hurting other people.
and as one who has received painful feedback from lisa (not for using proscribed items, of course) , i can honestly say that.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 12:14 am
Darn Risa and thinking she can visit her BBF instead of going to the idasnacker
Comment by April — July 13, 2010 @ 12:14 am
MY COOKIES! Sorry… only child syndrome. You can have one. One cookie. And it’s a coconut one. /not really that selfish
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 12:16 am
We need to have a Bear Lake snacker so that us Utah fMhers and the Idaho fMhers can get together in a central (and fun) location. Anyone have a cabin up/down there? I’ll totally volunteer you to invite us.
mfranti - you know it!
Tell Petunia that people are judgmental by nature but Mormon judgers are particularly annoying because they think they are backed up by God, therefore always right. My advice is to isolate the a-holes with your free spirit nature and the true Christians will always accept you as is.
At least that’s what I’ve done for the last 31 years!
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 12:18 am
Ahhh….I love coconut cookies.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 12:19 am
risa, i agree though i would modfiy your statement a bit
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 12:20 am
Ahhhh…I also love Bear Lake, and - weird - I was thinking about those raspberry milkshakes just today.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 12:21 am
My great aunt has a saying… something to the effect of “Never do men do evil with so much joy and vigor as when they think God supports them” …
Comment by April — July 13, 2010 @ 12:22 am
123, good poimt.
i did that too, mf, until I was ready to listen. And when I did listen, I listenend to those who had offered advice before, but then stowed it when I asked them to.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 12:23 am
#134 - Hey! I had that trip planned for 6 months! How long was the IDsnacker planned? I would have loved to do both. However, since I haven’t perfected cloning myself yet, I could only do one.
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 12:25 am
#142 Bah! excuses, excuses
Comment by April — July 13, 2010 @ 12:27 am
Pnut, are seriously equating the occasional coffee (or even straight up caffeine addiction) with alcohol abuse?
because the two are not the same. not even similar, though they may have things in common.
***
but i do admire your willingness to treat your addiction.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 12:29 am
#138 - I like your re-write mfranti. I’ve known a lot of No-Mo religious zealous that were equally as judgmental. However, we were talking about why Mormons are so judgmental so that’s why I just mentioned the Mos.
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 12:31 am
Sorry, Petunia, we are not ignoring you, we are a bunch of adults with attention issues. Actually, I hear coffee is good for that. Hmmmm. Didn’t you mention that?
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 12:33 am
Petunia, look at the discussion your post has sparked! You should be very proud.
I have a few ideas to share (as I drink my diet coke). Understanding how IMing works, the boys response of “you know coffee is…nevermind” was a very calculated response. He definitely opened the door, but Petunia did then ask why he thought coffee was worse than drinking a lot of diet coke, so expressing his opinion about coffee after that point was not unsolicited. I do think he got out of line when he said that as a priest he has a responsibility to look after the church, but not so much because I think he was trying to communicate Petunia, as a woman, should listen to him, a priesthood holder. He is a teenage boy trying to figure out how to carry out his responsibilities as a priesthood holder, and hopefully strong women like Petunia will help set him straight about playing the P-hood card. However, I do think he was out of line to imply that your choice to drink coffee was harmful to the church in whole, and therefore under his “jurisdiction.” I don’t think I would have been able to let that one slide, but Petunia must have more self control than me.
I think we should be careful, though, in justifying our own sins with “Well, other people sin, too.” Sorry Petunia, but I think the argument of coffee being no worse than diet coke was a weak one, only because you were using other people’s behaviors as a way to evaluate your own (I’m thinking along the lines of D&C 10:28). We all do it thought. I think that is why members of the church can be so judgmental towards other members. We are each aware of our own weaknesses and sins, and we feel better when we find sins and weaknesses in others. It is actually a very malicious way of boosting our own ego. That is why I enjoy s.s and r.s. teachers who can be so honest about their struggles. Not really because it makes me feel better than them, but it makes me think “I am just like you, trying to be a better person, but totally falling on my face sometimes in that effort.”
Comment by KS — July 13, 2010 @ 12:35 am
Re: undoing Primary lessons
This is a big concern for me. I’m the only Mormon in my family, and so everyone in my family drinks coffee and alcohol. As for myself, I don’t fit in with Mormon norms in a ton of ways. I’m a bit terrified of what my future kids will be taught. I never went through the youth programs, but I’ve heard enough stories to make me want to introduce my kids to the church at 18.
Comment by ChrisKay — July 13, 2010 @ 12:36 am
Not at all, Lupita. I get by on others’ well wishes and prayers. Thank you.
’nuff about me. Back to Petunia…
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 12:36 am
Good stuff, KS.
Comment by ErinAnn — July 13, 2010 @ 12:37 am
K.S.
are you new here?
great comments!
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 12:38 am
The thought hit as I read this:
Why are so many members worried when someone does something that seems to go against the WoW, but don’t worry when fellow members are financially burdened to the point not having enough food, or or don’t worry if if a members is dealing with something like depression??
I’m not a coffee fan, but I think alcohol, tobacco, and many illegal drugs are much worse for you.
But, I’ve pointed out here & at my Ward that there are members who loudly proclaim they don’t drink coffee, but can gossip up a storm.
And, Pres. Benson said it is wrong when youth in the Church won’t touch a cigarette but freely engage in petting.
Uh oh, Petunia has been reading posts here? Yikes! I’ve probably corrupted the poor girl!
Emily A: Hyrum SMith said that coffe & tea is what hot drinks meant.
A good post, especially the first time around. If you’re ever in San Jose, I can set you up with a blind date with one of my sons…
Actually, they’d kill me for doing that.
Comment by Mike H. — July 13, 2010 @ 12:42 am
It’s true, ChrisKay….people told me all the time that my Dad was a bad person because he drank coffee and the occasional beer. And I wondered why they would hold someone who was not a member of the Church up to their standards.
Can I just quote Salt ‘n Pepa and say “opinions are like assholes and everybody’s got one”? Because it’s true. No matter what you do, people will have something to say about it.
Just today my friend was telling me that everyone in their ward stopped talking to them the minute they stopped going to church regularly. How is that Christian? And a 6 year old boy told her daughter that her mother was a bad person for drinking Coke. Great things he’s learning from his parents. And just yesterday my 9 year old daughter put on a tank top because we were outside and it was flipping 90+ degrees and her little friend looked at me and said, “you let her wear tank tops?” Um yes, because she’s not wearing garments and shoulders are not immodest. A while later I heard her mother talking about modesty and how unbelievable it is what parents let their children wear. Walking by I said, “I’d rather my daughter wear tank tops than judge other people.”
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 12:43 am
144. No. I still drink coffee and dont plan to repent until I have dealt with my more serious sins, like overblogging.
I am saying that the habits that make our Mormon friends annoying, also make many of them amazingly helpful in a pinch. Maybe its a good thing we have friends like that. Maybe we should not try to change them.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 12:43 am
136 Risa
Awesome. Amen!
And Petunia, I will add just a bit to that. I have so much learning and growing to do (still!), but I have gathered a few bits of wisdom in my 42 years. One of them being true friends will love you no matter what. They will help you in your darkest moments, always keep your secrets, listen without judgment, and will kick your bum a bit when you need it (followed by a hug, an “I love you,” and some dessert).
Keep that great spirit you have, Petunia. You’re following in your wonderful mama’s footsteps. She should be so proud.
Oh, and when can we have an L.A. snacker, people??
Comment by Perri — July 13, 2010 @ 12:45 am
My husband’s family was all camping together for a reunion once and his non-Mormon uncle was drinking his morning coffee. My 8 year old nephew asked him what was in the cup and was totally shocked when he told him. Later when all of the kids were around, he told his mom about what uncle c did and his mom loudly discussed with him how some people make bad choices and we should do our best not to be like them. I was so mad but didn’t say anything there. I talked to my girls about it later and they seemed to understand that his mom was wrong. We talked about how Mormons have some things that we are asked not to do, but that others are not asked to do the same thing and it is our choice. Thank goodness for daycare providers who drink coffee and elementary teachers with tattoos because my kids were able to learn really early on that just because other people make different choices, it doesn’t mean that they are bad people or even that they are bad choices. The frustrating thing for me is that most of the time, it isn’t primary that’s teaching them to be judgmental, it’s extended family and friends, and it is during reunions and visits that I have to counter all the teachings I disagree with. My daughters so far seem to be pretty accepting of differences though and I love that they have had the opportunity to be exposed to so many different people. I didn’t get that until after I was married.
Comment by jen — July 13, 2010 @ 12:47 am
I really think though he might not have realized he was being misogynist his actions were. He might not have known that her mother at least is ok with her drinking coffee but once he realized that she took offense he should have backed off. He might not have understood her boundaries, but that he didn’t consider she had any was misogynistic. He might not have realized that she has the right to make decisions that do not match up with his, but she does. I would worry about the boundary issue of someone that doesn’t realize that he does not need to parent, or teach someone.
Comment by Sydni — July 13, 2010 @ 12:51 am
I meant that part for Petunia, not Emily…
But, if only they knew how many High Councilors drank Coke & other caffeine laden drinks.
In 90 degree weather, what’s the deal if they don’t show too much? Should we go back to the days when Garments were to the ankles & wrists?
Some people need to get a life there, Risa.
Comment by Mike H. — July 13, 2010 @ 12:51 am
#78, mfranti, why aren’t the other parts of Section 89 enforced? You might also ask, why have we added beer to the naughty list?
If you read section 89 carefully, you may notice that not all alcohol is prohibited. Just wine and “strong drinks,” i.e. lichor. Beer, as a weak barley drink, is actually in the recommended category.
Or was, I should say. That was then, this is now. The commandments that we erroneously call the word of wisdom are actually a similar but distinct set of rules. And the Church actually accepted them through the common consent process. Right or wrong, we’ve convenated to abstain from certain things. And right or wrong, excessive meat wasn’t part of that covenant.
It’s not all about health, either. An anthropologist that studies the list will notice that all the prohibited stuff is social. This rule-set is designed to impose certain social constraints on us, to keep us from making friends that would drag us down. Anyone who won’t be friends with a nonsmoker, or a nondrinker, will probably not respect other more important values.
Comment by Christian — July 13, 2010 @ 12:55 am
If people don’t have bigger things to worry about than kids wearing tank tops and other’s caffeine intake then they’re doing life wrong. IMO…
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 12:57 am
Welcome to Utah, Travis! People don’t have anything better to do than judge others.
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 1:01 am
nuuh, some of us have things to do and places to go and people to ignore.
i love utah!
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 1:02 am
This is why I brought my doc martens. Good boots for putting to other’s behinds.
And this same judging is why i’m not looking forward to the gong show that seems to be singles wards, though I’m hoping it’s better than seeing 50 young married couples in my current ward.
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 1:05 am
That’s because you’re not a native, mfranti. If you grew up here you wouldn’t be nearly as cool. Just think how much cooler I could have been if my parents had stayed in D.C.?
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 1:05 am
the married wards are the best./endsarcasm
if you need some sanity, lots of us are in the area!
Comment by opal — July 13, 2010 @ 1:06 am
Not saying one is better or worse, just hearing lots of horror stories is all. I’m hoping that it’s just relaxed though…
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 1:09 am
I went to a singles ward in Ogden for a hot minute back in 1998. It was after that I decided I wasn’t going to marry a Mormon man. And then I did. I’m such a hypocrite! Eh, he’s cute though.
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 1:11 am
Funny Risa, that comment seems very judgmental. There are great members and struggling members in every state.
Comment by Tina — July 13, 2010 @ 1:12 am
Haha. That’s why i’m just going to stick to my typical MO. Just sit in back and not talk to anyone. Not there for the meat market. Someday I’ll do the married thing again, hopefully someone minded like the ladies here and opposed to a Relief Society pre-modern style of design
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 1:14 am
I ended up marrying a member, didn’t I? So I couldn’t have been too judgmental. I grew up in a very egalitarian household and it seemed like all the Mormon guys I dated wanted to do the whole “preside” thing we me as the little “helpmeet.” When I found a Mormon man who wasn’t like that, I swooped him up just as fast as I could.
I realize there are great and struggling members in every state and my comment was mostly said in jest as a knock on singles wards.
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 1:16 am
You obviously missed the wit & sarcasm that is Risa.
Comment by opal — July 13, 2010 @ 1:16 am
151- Thanks! I am pretty new to fMh, but very much enjoying it!
Comment by KS — July 13, 2010 @ 1:16 am
welcome! now, go tell us a little bit about yourself here.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 1:22 am
Thanks Opal. But not everyone is able to understand my coolness
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 1:22 am
Sorry Risa! When I moved to Utah from Arizona years ago several people told me how judgmental and self-righteous everyone in Utah was going to be. The ward I moved into was just the opposite. I was very kindly welcomed and befriended and made friends that literally saved me from a bad direction I was taking. So I am sensitive about defending the good people that are here (and elsewhere too). Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Comment by Tina — July 13, 2010 @ 1:25 am
I just moved from Arizona too!
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 1:27 am
you too, tina.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 1:27 am
Agreed — very true.
Petunia, you wrote many excellent points in your message. You’re very articulate, and I hope you come back and visit FMH on a regular basis. I really enjoyed reading your post. — Wndr.
Comment by Wonderment — July 13, 2010 @ 1:40 am
Coffee protects against colon cancer, diabetes, Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimers–all proven and peer-reviewed. Coffee reduces your risk of Parkinsons by 80%. That is not a typo. Parkinson’s runs in my family. The word of wisdom is for health, so for me Coffee is a healthy beverage. Plus, Coffee was part of the food given to the pioneers–I’ve reviewed the supply lists. What’s good enough for them should be good enough for me. Besides, as humans we live and learn. Drink up!
Comment by djinn — July 13, 2010 @ 1:45 am
What, is no one here going to defend smoking?
the set of recommendations in section 89 was not just for health.
Nor was the similar bur distinct set of ruled imposed later during the MR.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 1:54 am
Petunia, I think we have all experienced feeling judged or preached at, but I would agree with those who say this is a human thing, not a Mormon thing. (There are plenty of non-Mormon people who are strident and preachy about a whole boatload of topics.)
But I just wanted to suggest that you imagine if your friend read this post. I think he might feel that people were being preachy, annoying, and disrespectful toward him. KWIM?
To me, the reality is that it’s hard not come across too strong when you believe you are right, and also hard not to take offense on the receiving end of someone’s strong feelings. I think it takes a lot of practice on “both sides” to learn to be more kind and respectful.
I imagine there are things you are passionate about that may come across preachy to others, but I doubt you would mean to come across that way.
I think we all do this to others at times. But I wonder how often we really mean to be offensive. I think more often than not, we’re all just doing our best to sort through our own thoughts, feelings, and choices and try to both be true to ourselves in that process while also being be respectful of others, particularly of those who may disagree.
Comment by Michelle — July 13, 2010 @ 2:09 am
I haven’t believed in God or gone to church in years, but this post still manages to rub me the wrong way.
If you want to be a Mormon, be a Mormon. If you don’t want to be a Mormon, don’t be a Mormon. I happen to believe the rules are silly, but they are also relatively straightforward.
Comment by Matt — July 13, 2010 @ 2:11 am
Matt 182 we come at this post very similarly as non-believers. I read this site because it is not a fundamentalist Mormon site, people here think there is shades of gray in their religion and not just black and white. Nothing is just cut and dry, rules are never straight forward especially in religion. Maybe expound upon what is it that rubs you the wrong way, people drinking coffee and still being Mormon? Life choices should never be judged without first finding out why that choice was made. Also last time I checked not drinking coffee isn’t even a cornerstone of the beliefs of the Mormon religion, just a quirk.
Comment by Sydni — July 13, 2010 @ 2:45 am
Wow! You sound WAY older than 16 in this post, and you are a very good writer, Petunia.
I’m not even going to try and read all the comments above before I hit the hay for the night. But as far as your question goes - I think the young man is probably feeling a lot of pressure to fill a certain role. His answer, that he’s a Priest and “has a duty” to do something as big and important as “bring people to Christ” makes me think that he’s been trained to judge and critique other people. And that he feels a big obligation to do those things. If he feels like the eternal salvation of other people is in his hands, because he’s a Priest, he’s probably under immense pressure.
He might be acting out of a sense of guilt. He’s probably acting out of a place of friendship for you, because he really does believe being close to Christ is important, and that drinking coffee will stand in the way of that. It’s relieving to me to hear that a young man like him gets to be around a young woman like you, who is confident and non-apologetic about her beliefs, and who can be a real life demonstration to him of the reality that people live their faiths differently.
Basically, you’re awesome. Like your mom.
Comment by nat kelly — July 13, 2010 @ 2:51 am
Thank you Risa, for quoting Salt ‘n’ Pepa! “None of your business” was truly an obra maestra.
What’s the matter with your life, why you gotta mess with mine? Don’t be sweatin’ what I do cuz I’m gonna be just fine!
I think we get hassled about WoW or modesty stuff because it’s what people see. That’s why you’re unlikely to hear, “Hey, you’re not being kind enough!” or “You’re not as generous as you should or could be.” And sadly, the stuff that people see is the stuff that has very little to do with whether you’re actually a good person.
And Petunia, you sound awesome. I have a dog named Petunia, who is also awesome. Keep on keeping on, and post again soon!
Comment by Andrea — July 13, 2010 @ 4:56 am
I think the Word of Wisdeom is sort of like the “fences” the Jews in Jesus’s time created around actual sins. The problem is that we become so obsessed with the fences that we forget about the really important things Jesus emphasized, like charity, caring for others, and “judging not.” The fact that some on this thread actually referred to coffee as if it were a gateway drug (!) kind of blows my mind.
There is a lot of emphasis placed on WoW in Primary, and if your friend grew up in the church, he probably grew up coloring little worksheets with “coffee” and “tea” crossed out in red as bad things. It probably shocked him to learn you don’t feel the same way. His attitude does smack of the one the Pharisees had, though, don’t you think? Regardless of what lessons may have been ingrained in his head for years, to cite it as a Priesthood duty to preach to a friend about it is…obnoxious.
Comment by Sofia — July 13, 2010 @ 5:34 am
You know…it’s late…and I am probably going to come across as rude or obnoxious…but really…oh forget it, it probably is my intent.
To start, men and young men use the priesthood qualifier against each other all the time. But generally, and I really think this applies in Petunia’s friend’s case, it is a stinky load of poo. They don’t mean what they are saying, and in fact do not really even know what they are saying. Even when adults do it, they are simply reacting to an ingrained mechanism of panic. The priesthood happens to be the go-to authority for a lot of people.
Off the horse, and on with the show. I think that the reason a lot of mormons bag so heavily upon each other and even others is that they either 1. don’t have a testimony of their own, 2. they have forgotten how they acquired their testimony through years and years of searching, pondering, praying, LIVING, trial/error, etc, or 3. they really think these seemingly small issued will save the world and they must FORCE people to see their viewpoint. #3 is commonly used in the mission field, and instead of delicately allowing people to grow into the newfound life they have accepted as a Mormon, the members try and force feed their testimonies down their throats.
Mostly I think it is #2, and they don’t remember that they had an entire life to learn certain things and become accustomed to them. I read a story related by a GA once that told about a women addicted to cigarettes who was baptized and continued to smoke a few cigs a day even after baptism. She was trying to quit, but it was difficult. Years upon years piled up with success then slip, then success then slip until she finally kicked the habit and was smokefree. The point of the story was that this woman attended the temple throughout all this time because she was trying to be the best she could, and not deliberately attempting to usurp authority or behave against the standards of the church. The story can be taken various ways, but I always took it as a GA telling us to BACK OFF each other and allow each other to grow at our own pace. Like tithing, a lot of things in this church take time to understand and acquire a testimony.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 5:57 am
As humans, we’re always justifying ourselves in our positions. There is a constant need for reassurance and fulfilment, therefore we tend to ‘convert’ everyone to our particular point of view. That enables us to have a ‘better social standing’ as the alpha members. Someone who can influence others makes better chief of the tribe sort of thing. Although we try to ‘empathise’, rarely does this occur. Discussions on any topic, from food, clothes, politics, religion, etc. will be generally trying to make the opposing person to agree. Rarely can a true debate be held without any negative feelings, be it politely refusing to hear the other’s argument to some sort of physical response (shouting, shoving, etc).
From my understanding, the only things prohibited in the Word of Wisdom are coffee and tea. Why? I have yet to find a specific answer. Chocolate has certainly more caffeine than coffee itself. Some members do not have it. There has not been an official response to what substances are we prohibited in the Word of Wisdom. My take is that the prophet said tea and coffee, and that’s all it has been said. Some, like Bruce R. McConkie, have gone into the caffeine/Coke argument. This, however has not been an official position. Some will try and quote a ‘priesthood bulletin’ of 1972, however it has no official backing.
The most addictive substance known to man to date is sugar. Research has shown the effects of sugar on the brain, rating the response from humans to be far greater than cocaine. However, you don’t see any statements on that. In general, the Word of Wisdom was given for a counsel, to take care of your body which, as Paul says, is the temple of God. My take is that the Word of Wisdom is a preparatory law for a greater experience in this law. The promises at the end are the part I typically tend to focus on.
It is interesting, to be a bit provocative, that members generally focus on the DON’Ts, but never on the DOs. You could argue that if someone has a barbecue in the summer, they are essentially going against the Word of Wisdom. Or if they don’t eat enough grains. I believe that the Word of Wisdom allows LDS to appease our inner-Pharisee.
Members can be preachy, or lengthy in responses to you. But it is up to you how you filter all the information and what you make of it. Personally, I always try to look on the positive note of any interactions with fellow members. Even criticisms have allowed me to grow or to take approaches or ideas I would not have considered.
Comment by Alex — July 13, 2010 @ 6:20 am
70:
Nonsense. The men of the church get lectured on gambling almost as much as pornography.
82:
And who better to teach it to him than some unrelated busybody, right?
157:
I suppose it’s progress that the sin is being separated from the sinner, but who would have known that “preach[ing] to me from certain scriptures and the Word of Wisdom” = hating women?
161:
Like, for example, people who live in Utah.
184:
A lot of posters here have speculated about the young man’s motivations–how about mfranti invites him to speak for himself?
Comment by Peter LLC — July 13, 2010 @ 6:29 am
Someone may have already pointed this out, but I am leaving for the day.
I noticed that some have said that by saying “nevermind” he was leaving the issue alone. Being 17 myself, I don’t think that’s right. It’s a way of being passive aggressive online. If we really wanted to say nevermind, we would not type it and send it, or we would type it, delete it, and pretend we never wrote it. By saying nevermind and sending it, we’re saying we are talking about it, but not really, and it’s all your fault if you keep going. Like I said, passive aggressive.
(social media commentary over)
Comment by Megs — July 13, 2010 @ 6:44 am
mfranti when I said you still have yours…that a light (maybe only my family does this?) way of saying you stil like blogging and debating…you still have that..so she must have gotten that from Mr Mfranti…does that make sense? It’s not an insult or this major commentary.
If any of my children can spell they must have gotten it from me…because I can’t—they took that skill get it?…sigh
Comment by britt k — July 13, 2010 @ 7:05 am
for the record..it’s not like I think he handled it great…he handled the situation like he still has a lot to learn..I just go assuming his hearts in the right place..just like I’m assuming petunia’s heart is in the right place…they just both set out to “help and teach each other”. He could have gracefully said nothing, she could have gracefully given him the out with nevermind. It’s coffee not axe murders
Comment by britt k — July 13, 2010 @ 7:38 am
I’ve never been tempted to drink coffee (the flavor tastes like burnt dirt to me, the few times I’ve tasted mocha or coffee beans), but I know most people disagree with me.
There are no temple covenants to keep the Word of Wisdom that I’m aware of. However, keeping the Word of Wisdom is a part of temple recommend interviews . . . and baptismal interviews. As a member, it is part of the promises you’ve made when you joined the Church. Even though it does not have a covenant weight, you have prepared to make those covenants by changing your lifestyle this way. All the arguments in the world don’t really matter in light of that. I like to think of it in terms of not choosing whether or not to drink coffee, but choosing whether or not to give up those token offerings to show (myself and others, but mostly myself) I’m prepared to give up more in the service of Christ.
Now that I’ve preached, I’ll tackle the real question: why people have such an inclination to preach, particularly about certain “easy” topics like the Word of Wisdom, chastity, church attendance, etc.
Firstly, they are easy, black-and-white measurements. It’s easy to drink coffee or not. Less easy to measure whether or not a person has been charitable. They are sort of minimum requirements. Benchmarks, if you will, in LDS membership and Christ’s service.
Secondly, people really do care. Because these points are benchmarks, people who care about your spiritual welfare (whether you think they have a right to care or not) are going to find it hard to keep their mouths shut when they see you not following them. Your mom, from what little I know of her, is good at not preaching, especially when it comes to you. Most people don’t have that kind of practice. They tend to open mouth first, insert foot later.
Thirdly, and this is making a huge assumption that people are like me, some people are constantly measuring and remeasuring their moral stances. By preaching to you, they are inviting arguments in return in order to create more thought process in your mind and in their mind. Even if they are not consciously inviting argument, they may still be subconsciously asking you “why are you doing this?” with a genuine desire to know. If you reinterpret any such preaching that way, you will either give those who truly want discussion what they may not realize they want, or you will shock the socks off of people who never thought to question. Only good can come of that, so long as you present mature, well-reasoned and calm answers.
Fourthly, whether or not you have issues with the priesthood, this is part of what priesthood ordination entails. The priesthood is supposed to direct men in service of others, especially other members. They may not always know how best to serve, but remember too that serving you might not always mean making you comfortable.
For an exaggerated example, let’s say you were depressive. He saw you doing things like cutting yourself, overusing medications, or similar things. He realized that these things were not good for you, and could potentially lead to your suicide. As your friend, if you were in your right mind and not depressive, you would want him to stop you. Does that mean you would appreciate his “meddling”? No more than you appreciate it now. Yet, he sees this as a similar symptom, only a spiritual depression rather than a physical one. As your friend, he then perceives a duty to speak up, even more so as a person given the task of taking care of others. Is he graceful in executing that duty? Obviously not. Yet, the good sentiment is there.
So you have two choices. You can focus on the preachiness and “how dare they step into my territory and tell me what to do!” or you can focus on their good intentions, and either make sure you have good reasons to present to them when the opportunity arises, or decide you’re not going to bother and graciously thank them for their concern.
Comment by SilverRain — July 13, 2010 @ 8:37 am
Which means that drinking coffee means a choice to step outside the boundary, to separate yourself.
Drinking coffee is kind of like becoming a furry.
As to What, is no one here going to defend smoking? — people used to.
Anyway, we talked about this a fair amount after the end of high priests group this Sunday, including how there is a song verse about children eating very little meat …
But seriously, it is a marker for whether or not you choose to be part of the LDS church or not. People interpret it that way and it functions that way.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — July 13, 2010 @ 8:43 am
Hark! Hark! Hark! tis children’s music, children’s voices, oh how sweet…
and because I can’t fogive you for putting that dreadful song in my head, I wil put it in yours.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 8:47 am
Sorry Tina, I got confused. I thought your comment #168 was addressing my comment in #167 because you didn’t specify. As I thought about it last night, and was too tired to write back, I realized you were addressing my comments #161 and #164. I was so obviously kidding, but probably not obvious enough. I’m a native Utahn so basically I was insulting myself, right? I know there are good and struggling members in all states, heck, even in all countries. If I really thought Utah was full of judgmental jerks I would have moved out of the state at 18 instead of staying here 14 more years, marrying a man from here, and raising my children here. I always tell people there are jerks everywhere and there are kind people everywhere and just because you’re a member of the church doesn’t make you a good person, nor does it make you a bad person. I have loved almost all the wards I have lived in my life and in each ward I encountered some of the best people God has put on this planet, and I have also encountered some of the most self-righteous judgmental jerks I’ve ever met. Just like life, the Church is a cross-section of all different kinds of people and personalities.
Okay, I probably over explained myself.
Lest anyone be confused, I love Utah! Although I’ve read plenty people state on other threads how bad living in the jello bowel sucks and I have never been personally offended by it.
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 8:59 am
A woman once asked President Lee if drinking a cup of coffee a day would keep her out of the celestial kingdom. His response was quite interesting.
Paraphrasing he said:
“The actual drinking of one cup of coffee a day probably will not keep you out of the celestial kingdom. The problem is that you already know that the Lord has asked us not to do that. Your intentionally drinking a cup of coffee every morning when you know you have been asked not to is essentially open rebellion against God. While drinking coffee will not keep you out of the Celestial kingdom, open rebellion against God will”
It’s not what we do, it is how and why we do it. Knowing better and doing something anyway turns out not to be all that great in the eyes of the people upstairs.
Comment by Davis — July 13, 2010 @ 9:03 am
#182 - Matt, even though you have left the church, your thinking is still very black and white. Just because Petunia has the occasional cup of coffee doesn’t mean she should take her name off the membership rolls. The rules and requirements of a church member are very strict and someone with a free spirit (raising my hand) can often times buck up against the cage because we yearn to fly. That doesn’t mean we’ve lost our testimonies. There is a lot of gray in life and in the church.
Comment by Risa — July 13, 2010 @ 9:05 am
If you advertise yourself as doing something contrary to teachings of the prophets, and still consider yourself in good standing of the church it’s reasonable for someone to point out, “you know that’s not what we/you should be doing…”
If you want to do whatever you want in private and justify it to yourself go for it. But no member should be expected to sit and listen in silence while another advertises their own actions.
Drinking coffee is not immoral. Drinking coke is not immoral. My take on it would be, all your reasoning about perceived moderate benefits may be true (of course they may not be, consider cigarettes which were advertised by some medical professionals as good for your lungs, heart, brain for a time). But regardless, identifying a potential benefit of wine, does not provide licensed justification to go contrary to the words of the prophets.
Note, I’m not condemning anyone here. Use your agency as you desire. But don’t demand that others shrug their shoulders when you suggest it’s appropriate (in a church sense) to do and advertise yourself as doing.
Plenty of great people in and out of the church are drinking coffee, smoking, etc. and trying to be better. But once you cross over into “it’s not so bad, look at that beam in your own eye” territory you’ve stopped progressing and (im)proving yourself as far as that particular principle is concerned.
Comment by eric — July 13, 2010 @ 9:11 am
You know, several people on here, SilverRain most recently, have argued that these sorts of details are part of what show us to be in the same in-group, and are important from a social perspective because of it. I understand that, and I except that whatever group(or groups) I choose to belong to in my life, there will be certain things that are social requirements for that group that I need to weigh as being worth following or not. I plan on teaching my children this as they grow up, too.
It’s got me thinking, though: When do those sorts of indicators become to much, or taken too rigidly? Shouldn’t there be some sort of wiggle room on the basis of personal needs and experiences?
When every action becomes a commandment, you start to run into trouble, and that’s where the rebellious ones like myself start really running into problems. There has to be a place where we draw the line between commandment and advice or suggestion…instead of layering layer after layer of advice turned into commandments. *sigh* It’s frustrating.
Comment by JWalton — July 13, 2010 @ 9:15 am
Peter, anyone that has the balls to answer the question in the same way for all of her friends is an example of honesty and integrity.
i’m not advocating that my daughter challenge people on their religious beliefs, but if someone brings up her worthiness and invokes god and the p-hood, she should ask more questions.
what she did by asking him to expand on his thoughts is nothing more than what we do on this blog everyday. he attempted to question her worthiness and she challenged him to explain the rule, with logic.
seems like i’ve done my job well. *
so, why do i allow her to drink coffee? well, i’ve made it clear that if she wants to be temple worthy and wants to pass her interviews with the bishop and feel like she’s a part of team Mormon, she has to abstain.
I think this is her way of feeling her way through one of those logics vs leaps of faith things that we all have to deal with if we remain in the church.
if I forbid the use of coffee or sex or cigarettes (until 18 and never in my home) or alcohol (until the age of 21 and never in my house), i’m just asking for her to either rebel hard at 16 or when she goes off to college.
Our family dynamic isn’t like a lot of what you are familiar with. It’s hard to explain why I’m so seemingly lax about this stuff unless you understand that there’s a fair amount of baggage that kid carries around. my job is to lighten the load, not add to it.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 9:19 am
Funny, I don’t remember saying that. Apparently, I need to clarify.
The practice of offering tokens to symbolize a covenant is a well-established one. Baptism itself is an obvious example.
There is a deep spiritual significance to these seemingly trivial, outward manifestations, not just a “lookit me, I wear the same color bandanna as you, now we’re friends dohohah!”
I would go into it, but it’s not really the purpose of this post.
Comment by SilverRain — July 13, 2010 @ 9:20 am
I’m aware that I was paraphrasing, SilverRain, and I’m not trying to single out or attack your post in any way! It was a good post, it just played directly into a theme I’m noticing.
On a fundamental level, though, I disagree with your conclusion.
My personal relationship with deity requires that I love my Heavenly Parents, and offer to them two things: a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Some of the ways that I make that offering follow church beliefs, others are unique to my relationship with God. I have yet to find, in any of my prayers or study, that our Heavenly Parents really, honestly care about the clutter of mental tchotchkies that are accruing in Mormonism.
I could be totally wrong. There are probably many people who find those tokens a very fulfilling and intimate link to God. For me, though…the cultural connotations and expectations make them a stumbling block instead of a ladder. At their worst, they have actively kept me from a link with my Parents before. I will continue to cultivate a personal relationship with my God. If that means that I feel that something that is considered important in Mormonism is not part of my personal progression, then I chose to trust my intuition and personal inspiration over the church, wherever it may take me.
Comment by JWalton — July 13, 2010 @ 9:37 am
JWalton—don’t worry, I wasn’t feeling attacked. I just saw that some clarification of my point might be needed. I’m not really the wear-the-same-color-of-bandanna type, so I really didn’t want to leave the impression that I was advocating doing something just to fit in.
And your opinion about temporal tokens of spiritual things is increasingly a very common one.
Comment by SilverRain — July 13, 2010 @ 9:42 am
mfranti,
Oh, that horrible, horrible song!!
Comment by AllieKay — July 13, 2010 @ 9:47 am
So aside from the obvious questions about the Word of Wisdom and caffeine, why do some members feel that its their duty to police the actions of other members?
Looking from the Strength of Youth pamphlet that most leaders see as scriptures (although if you think about it: everything in there is opinion), it distinctively says that one becomes like their friends. Which makes sense since most people flock to those they have things in common with. Personally, I always think that if someone is ‘policing’ others, it’s simply because they view another person’s sins might pass on to them (total baloney but it seems to hold merit). The idea that if one teens drinks coffee the others will too, is mainly because you’re a girl.
If you look on teen pregnancy cases (which are rare, and likely will not be your case–even if some say otherwise due to the coffee) in the church you’ll find the reaction seems to be along the lines of this:
1) Help the boy
2) Shame the girl
Pretty much what is believed is that women have influence on social behavior, and as men–they need to ensure the influence women have on them is kept to a minimal to ensure the priesthood is honored. If a girl is giving advances, the guy will follow. If a girl drinks coffee, the guy will follow. If a girl jumps off a bridge, the guy will follow. If a couple divorces, their married friends will follow. The last one does have some merit to it, but relates more to ‘non-church’ marriages than anything else.
Simply being, some strongly believe the behaviors of others will have a direct influence on them.
As for the ‘Peter- Preacher-y’, people lack common courtesy. I think it’s also because that young boy’s family has raised him in a nutshell causing him to ignore the realities of the world. Which, the reality is the majority of Americans do not attend church. The reality also is, more than not you’ll find a few adult coffee drinkers in any given congregation. Whether or not they hold a temple recommend depends on their bishop/stake president’s opinion.
Comment by Newly Housewife — July 13, 2010 @ 9:59 am
I like this and it probably mirrors the way that I feel about my relationship with God lately. But really, don’t most of the people on this site do this in some way to reconcile the things that they disagree with in the church?
Comment by Corktree — July 13, 2010 @ 10:02 am
Petunia, great post, you and my oldest daughter would love each other. For me the coffee isn’t the issue it’s the fact it can be addictive. I’m not throwing stones here I use to down 2 -52oz. Dr Peppers a day to keep going, I haven’t had one in 5 years because if I have 1 it starts all over and I have learned that for myself. I used to be very self-rightous about coffee drinkers, smokers, overeaters…I was pretty proud that I hadn’t taken up a “bad” habit then I finally put the two together I was filling my “big mug” with cold caffine no difference!! I wish I could say I quit that day but I finally chose to not drink it anymore.
The people who judge will one day be judged. We will be judged on our intent as well, if your friend was trully trying to help that will be how it’s viewed, if it was unrightous dominion that’s how it will be judged (luckily the Lord knows which it was). If you are concerned about what you are doing pray about it, you’ll get an answer then choose what you feel best. In our church there are good and bad examples, in the WoW its says moderation in ALL things, we have a huge (no pun intended) problem with obesity in the church I think your paying attention to garbage that is put in our drinks, food…shows that you will figure it out and make the best decision for you.
I wish you the best, life is a journey and we pick and choose along the way what works for us, The Lord knows our intent!!
Comment by Cindy — July 13, 2010 @ 10:04 am
don’t most people in the church…?
i’ll admit, i don’t believe that noah actually built and ark and loaded it with 2 & 2.
Nor do I believe the garden of eden is in the Midwest.
and i definitely think that having a cup of coffee every morning is better for my health than eating factory meat and cheeseburgers everyday.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 10:06 am
Petunia.
You are very brave for posting. I have not read through all of the previous comments, but I do have some thoughts.
1) Whatever the origins and history, and whatever the reasoning, there is really no debate that coffee-drinking violates the Word of Wisdom as it has long been interpreted by Church leaders (who are, after all, responsible for interpreting such things).
2) Nowhere in the temple recommend interview (which, I presume, you have undergone at some point) is coffee expresssly mentioned. But the WoW is. And it includes coffee (see 1).
3) I have no idea where drinking coffee ranks on the “list of grave do-nots.” It seems to me that not drinking coffee is a pretty easy commandment to keep, comparatively speaking. It may be (and probably is) true that it is a “boundary marking” commandment. But I would be hesistant to infer from that assumption that the restriction is any less important from the Lord’s perspective.
4) You said you were trying to be “provocative” with your friend, which suggests to me that you probably knew what his response/reaction would be (just as I suspect you know how most of your LDS friends would react to a statement that you were sipping your morning joe.)
5) Go easy on your friend. My sense is he really was reaching out in love and genuine concern. There have been comments about his invocation of the priesthood …. But to the extent he was attempting to help his friend in her journey in the gospel, I think his actions were entirely consistent (and probably demanded by) the covenants he made when he received the priesthood. He may not have done it perfectly, but who does? You may find that you are increasingly grateful for friends like him.
6) We are all making our way along the path. We are all doing our best to try to bring ourselves and others to Christ (as we have been commanded). As you have experienced, this can be tricky at times. I hope and pray for all the best for you and your mum.
Comment by Pan — July 13, 2010 @ 10:15 am
Like most groups, the Mormon Church asks its members to jump through certain hoops in order to demonstrate their good standing. Hoop jumping functions not only as a test of loyalty but also as a means to draw convenient demarcation lines which distinguish those within the group from those without. If you choose to drink coffee regularly and also to be a churchgoing Mormon, that’s fine. But please don’t act surprised when that choice flusters and confuses other Mormons, because you’re sending a mixed signal. You’re claiming residence within the group while flouting a basic group norm.
If free-spiritedness is a characteristic you value, I would humbly suggest that Mormonism is perhaps not the best fit for you. I know of very few groups which frown on free-spiritedness more sternly and consistently than the Mormon Church.
Comment by Matt — July 13, 2010 @ 10:49 am
Personally I feel like less of a free spirit since I started drinking coffee.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 10:55 am
#204, SilverRain, I’m glad you weren’t feeling attacked. I’m not always sure how my “voice” is taken on here, since you ladies can’t hear me in person, and I tend to use quit a bit of sarcasm and humor in real life, neither of which translate to script well.
I find your choice of a quote from Screwtape Letters interesting. There’s a fascinating juxtaposition for me between your declaration and your use of that quote. To put it in the context of the OP, do you believe that Petunia is doing the former or the latter? Many of the women on here would see it as her personal choice, something that can have an impact on her standing within the church, but honestly might have little or no impact on her personal relationship with God, in keeping with your wearing the same bandanna concept.
On the other hand, by using that quote from Screwtape, you seem to imply that her choice places her soul at risk, by negating the importance of physical tokens.
As a side note, there seems to be an assumption that just because I disagree with certain symbols of Mormonism, that I throw out all physical tokens. That’s not so, and I’d like to clarify. I hold the physical tokens tied to the temple as sacred. Not agreeing with some of our other “trademark” physical signs of being LDS does not mean that I push it in the faces of other people(it is, in fact, something I rarely discuss outside of conversations with my spouse or on this board).
What is to say, too, that I haven’t had other things which I have been prompted to do as a symbol of my faith, whether they are readily visible to others or not? , Talking about the how’s and why’s of religious observance, Christ said that we should fast quietly, and not loudly or dramatically like the Pharisees. I find that to be true for other aspects of my belief as well: my personal, inward relationship, the delicate things that are purely between myself and God, are far more important then an outward symbol that others can judge me worthy by.
Comment by JWalton — July 13, 2010 @ 11:03 am
Mfranti, do you realize who wrote that song?
Eliza R Snow.
Lets also not forget Emma’s role in the WoW.
It aint just the Patriarchy
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 11:04 am
#213, but why do we have to be so dang loud about not judging others?
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 11:07 am
201:
Actually, what many on this blog did was make assumptions about his motivations [including you: “lets assume he’s being all peter prieshoody for those reasons”] and then attack the strawman they created.
Again, I’d like to see him write a guest post in which he could speak for himself.
Comment by Peter LLC — July 13, 2010 @ 11:08 am
#215, Heh…good question…we sure can get judgemental about whether others are judging sometimes can’t we? I know I do.
Personally, though, I don’t care if others view me as a sinner. We are all sinners and beggars. Whether I’m a sinner who helps her brothers and sisters is a far more important question
Comment by JWalton — July 13, 2010 @ 11:12 am
This is a threadjack, but it relates to the WoW. I am reading the OT, and last night I read about Samson. He was a Nazarite from the time he was conceived. According to the Bible dictionary, a Nazarite was a “consecrated man”, or a man who had made covenants with God to abstain from wine, cutting hair and contact with the dead. The vow could either be for a short period of time or for life. (Nazarites are outlined in Numbers 6). Here are a few verses:
Obviously it’s not exactly the same as being Mormon, but I found the similarities interesting. Both Nazarites and Mormons make covenants with God and abstain from “wine and strong drink”. Both “separate themselves” to an extent (the whole idea of being a peculiar people, or of living in the world and not “of the world”). I wonder what the significance of these similarities are.
Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2010 @ 11:24 am
Oh crap, go to bed and get a chance to sleep in and now I have missed a whole truckload of comments! Time to go back and read em!
Comment by April — July 13, 2010 @ 11:34 am
Reminds me of the day I realize how prejudiced I was against people who were prejudice.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 11:36 am
We all make judgments on our “friends” or they wouldn’t be our friends. The point you’ll have to decide as you also judge your friend is whether you want to stay friends with him, just as he have to judge whether he wants to stay your friend.
That’s not to say that our friends care about every choice we make but there is a line, and that line is different for everyone, where you will no longer be friends with someone.
If your friend liked to beat up little girls would still want to hang around him? If your friend got involved in heavy drugs and robbed banks would want to be his friend? If your friend had an issue with your use of Coffee do you want to be his friend? The answers to first few are obvious but they rely on the same principle as the last one, so if your asking why people make judgments its because that’s how human beings are — its what allows us to feel connected and loved.
Comment by Carey — July 13, 2010 @ 11:51 am
Pnut,
no disrespect to Eliza R. Snow. Awesome people produce crappy stuff now and then. I mean, Paul McCartney wrote “Ebony and Ivory” for cryin’ out loud!
Comment by AllieKay — July 13, 2010 @ 11:54 am
I pooped out around comment 147, but wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
“why he thought coffee was worse than drinking a lot of diet coke”
It’s not any worse, morally speaking. My view is that caffeine has nothing to do with it. Health has nothing to do with it. I hang out in coffee shops all the time here in NY. My wife’s done professional industrial research on the health benefits of coffee. But anyone who’s been baptized has covenanted not to drink it. Since I’ve been baptized, even though it smells good and likely has some health benefits, I refrain, and for me that’s the end of story.
(If anyone wonders, this question is supposed to be part of the baptismal interview, from “Preach My Gospel.” “What do you understand of the Word of Wisdom? Are you willing to obey this law [before your baptism]?” If you aren’t willing to abide by it, then you don’t get baptized.)
Comment by Ben S — July 13, 2010 @ 11:58 am
I really don’t know why people are so preachy. It bugs me too. Especially the things they preach about: I don’t get to the temple as often as they do (they have non-member spouses who can always babysit while they take the day to attend); I don’t have a spotless clean house (I’m not a SAHM- which brings on more judgment) etc… the list “just goes on and on my friend”….
There are a lot of sermons about Jesus and the 99 and the lost sheep. We are taught that to be like Jesus, we need to not forget about anyone (much easier said than done). Mormons that there are certain things that will bring us greater happiness. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think that a lot of times people are really trying to be a friend and are acting on their desire for us to be as happy as they are. They don’t know how to express their concern without being preachy because they’ve been preached to their entire lives, and they haven’t yet learned that people find their own happiness on their own paths. We can’t assume that your friend’s interpretation of his duty is to the church as an institution, or a patriarchal power grab; it may be a devotion to his duties and a real concern for individual members. Like you, he is probably navigating his way through life, still learning who he is and the reasons behind the things he does or does not do.
It’s good that you are discovering how you want to live your life and the reasons supporting your choices. Hopefully you are as accepting to others’ choices as well. It is not realistic however to openly flout an accepted tenet of a religion you have adopted as your own and not expect some sort of reaction. Granted, that reaction should not be a call to repentance and warning of fire and brimstone (unless perhaps you are considering mass murder or some such), but to expect tacit approval and support of your choice is somewhat naive.
Comment by JC — July 13, 2010 @ 12:09 pm
Oops, that second sentence second paragraph should read:
“Mormons are taught that there are certain things…..”
Comment by JC — July 13, 2010 @ 12:11 pm
Hi Petunia,
Everyone can make their own choices. You cannot always choose the consequences. I haven’t read all the comments, so I’m sure someone else already covered this.
If you drink coffee, you need to prepare yourself for the possibility you will be denied a temple recommend. That’s simply the chance you take. How important is going to the temple to you? Is that a risk you want to take?
You also run the chance of being passed up to serve in callings. You might be an excellent Laurel Class President or something else in the future, but I find it doubtful that a bishop would issue a calling to a young woman that he knows drinks coffee. That would be a loss to you and to those you would serve.
I also think worst of all, people would disregard things you have to say if they knew you drank coffee. I just think that’s the reality of the situation, whether that’s right or wrong. In the church, I think it’s a lot easier to get a point across, especially if it’s unconventional or controversial, when people know you are trying to be obedient, and not trying to be rebellious.
Is it worth it? I think that’s the question you need to ask yourself.
Comment by HeidiAnn — July 13, 2010 @ 12:19 pm
Lets not forget the conspiring men part of the wow. Iirc at times people have starve bc local farmland eent to grow coffee for foreigners who pay more than hungry locals.
lets not forget the opium silver tea triangle, either. China hasnt forgotten.
Has the tobacco industry ever engaged in evil conspiracy? Hmm. Have to think about that.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 12:24 pm
not to mention the meat industry!!!
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 12:27 pm
I think it is telling that during an online chat, not a phone call or face to face that he wrote out “you know coffee is… nevermind”. If he truly meant the nevermind than he shouldn’t have typed in the 1st place. Reading before #190 nailed it.
Comment by StarieNite — July 13, 2010 @ 12:38 pm
I have to say the vitriol that the topic of coffee has spewed makes it seem that it is akin to meth, pill popping, or very heavy drugs. Maybe just maybe Its not that big of a deal that a 16 year old is testing her boundaries and decided not to make the decisions that others choice to do. She doesn’t need anyone here to explain why its bad, I believe I read that her mother talked to her about it. Her mother lets her drink it, she isn’t breaking the law, and the post wasn’t about WoW.
Lets talk about what the question was: is it ok for someone to tell you how to live your life based on their personal values?
Leave the girl alone, and stop trying to correct her behavior, she identifies with being Mormon and if she doesn’t practice the same way that you do that really doesn’t matter. She is finding her truth, and I remember being taught that free will was much more important then the WoW. If you want to force people to follow the rules exactly without testing them or seeing if they work for her why the hell did God not send Satin to save everyone? Because I was taught Jesus wanted to give us free will, so be like Christ and let her choice her own way.
Comment by Sydni — July 13, 2010 @ 12:48 pm
I’ve gone through a similar experience with a friend at church who loves tattoos. She’s not a convert - she enjoys body art. Now, tattoos are permanent, so I don’t know if it is a good comparison, but it has been an excellent lesson to me of “you do what you want and I’ll do what I want.”
Accepting that mindset has allowed us to become close friends.
And there are plenty of things that I do that she strengthens my faith in — if I only looked at the tatts, I wouldn’t see that.
Best of luck Petunia, you’re mature beyond your years, I think.
Comment by Natalie — July 13, 2010 @ 12:52 pm
Why coffee and nothing on red meat? I was in priesthood opening exercises last October when the EQ announced a special pre-priesthood session bbq, with NOTHING but red meat. October wasn’t a time of famine, nor was it winter.
It’s annoying to be called on the carpet for having a cup, when there are church sanctioned luau’s which seem inconsistent with the same “code of health.”
Comment by Aaron — July 13, 2010 @ 1:02 pm
Wow Petunia! I’m impressed!
My take has been illustrated beautifully by some of the comments to your post:
I believe that some people are preachy because that are attempting to justify, to themselves, the reasons they have abstained from so many really good things for so long.
Some of these substances, like alcohol, tea and coffee, have some very well researched health benefits. There is even some evidence for the use of THC, extacy and mushrooms in treating physical and psychological conditions. I’m not condoning that, BTW.
I tend to rely more on research and tangible evidence rather than ideology…
Anyone that has enjoyed a great cafe mocha on a cold winter morning, a great, heady ale with a killer pub sandwich, a great fruity wine with cheese or a long, peaceful spring evening under the stars with a solid, quality pipe and some cherry infused tobacco straight from the reservations of the four corners area will have no need to preach.
Sometimes enjoying the bounty of the earth in these areas is actually a testament to a higher power. It ADDS to the quality of life and it nurishes appreciation for the material aspects of creation. We learn to really live, connect and participate in the human legacy. I have never been more at peace, or connected to my friends, nature, etc. as in some of these moments…
Seeing this can’t be easy for those that are dead set against the expression of it…
Abstinance breeds indignation. It breeds judgement. It breeds jealousy, frankly. It doesn’t feel good to see others enjoying that which we feel is “sin” and we have to tell ourselves that they aren’t really happy, healthy, reighteous, etc. in order to feel good about our decisions to not participate. I know many church members that were quite rigid and judgemental in their thinking that “came around’ after actually experiencing some of the forbidden fruits and evolved into more loving, open, accepting adults. (I will extend that abstinance to “chastity” as well, with some very stern age and maturity related warnings. All things have their prescribed times, some are actually laws, and should be entered into wisely and slowly. It really is a matter of personal choice and perception. Probably a good idea not to get into this until you are MUCH older, right mom?).
Interestingly enough, in the absence of rules and mores regulating these bad behaviors, guilt withers and dies and the activities themselves lose their power over us. We master them. Use doesn’t equate to addiction. Moderation in all things is the key to enjoyment. That is a thinking error within the church, that we will all become addicts if we allow even a drop to touch us. That, to me, means we allow others to make and inforce the rules for us instead of taking that responsibility upon ourselves.
Leaving those choices up to others makes us mistrust our own judgement. It makes us afraid and nervous about walking in the world. It makes us think we are weak and need some kind of protection from the evil world…
None of that is true. I know. I’m kinda old. I’ve seen a lot of stuff.
Maybe that makes people preachy too. Maybe they are afraid to take responsibility for themselves and actually experience life, so they can’t allow other to experiment.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 1:26 pm
I have been reading some interesting things about our church. I was interested about church policies from the past, because I remember a time when we were asked to be watchdogs for the church so to speak. The church was going through a time when a lot of they were trying to figure out how to manage the size and rapid growth of the church. Criticism for our past history became a issue and in an effort to stop the damage being done, it was decided that some things needed to be handled, such as members joining polygamist groups.The reason I know this is because I have a couple of Uncles that ended up caught in this little drama. One was a church employee and in the Stake Presidency, the other, his brother, was a polygamist, trying to live below the radar. Faithful brother was expected to tattle on Polygamy brother, and so he did, but it put him in a horrible position, that bothered his soul. He still loved his brother and felt disloyal and used by having to ‘turn’ in his own kin. Have you read about Nazi Germany? At this same time in the church they actually had watch groups that kept an eye on academia and their published works. Remember all the excommunications in the 90’s? I believe it has died down now, fMh is still here right? But the legacy remains. The choices they made to enact these policies was an attempt to keep control of a large group, to keep the religion pure, as they interpreted it. Again, poor judgment, that has lead to more baggage to deal with as members.
What I take away from this is that we do have a legacy of ‘watchdog’ behavior, so keep that in mind. Just another, part of our history we need to live down. It probably isn’t going away any time soon so learning to deal with it at a young age will just put you at that much more of an advantage.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 1:37 pm
211- Matt, I disagree with some of what you said. I think there needs to be some distinction between the Mormon Church and its members. I agree that there are plenty of people in the church who are very orthodox and openly criticize other people for not being the same. You may have had some significant experience along those lines to give you just cause for forming that opinion. However, I would like to point out this blog as evidence that free-spirits can be faithful members of the church. IMO, church doctrine does not rule out free-spiritedness. On the contrary, my experience was encouragement from my parents and church leaders to study the teachings and history of the church and form my own opinions. I have always resented the attitude that some people display of, “Of course you feel that way, you’re Mormon,” or “You only feel that way because that is how you were raised.” I have the same ability to critically think about teachings and practices of the church and make my own decisions as anyone else, “despite” being raised in the church.
I do think you are right on target though, that when we choose to act in a way that strays from the expected, we shouldn’t be surprised when other members disagree or are confused by our actions. I don’t think that is so very unique to the church, but a general cost of membership in any group.
Comment by KS — July 13, 2010 @ 1:43 pm
G-ma,
There is an interesting article in City Weekly about this very subject!
http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-11647-gay-students-vs-byu-honor-code.html
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 1:45 pm
AllieKay- Don’t forget the musical torture that is “Simple Having a Wonderful Christmas Time.”
Comment by KS — July 13, 2010 @ 1:50 pm
Thanks Papakrok….that was interesting. Sometimes the church reminds me of my beautiful, mentally ill, aspergers’ daughter. Paranoid, fixated on rules, and always paying for the choices those things enforce on her life, but unable to make any better decisions because of the make-up of her being.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 1:57 pm
Here’s the really weird thing:
I am pagan, tarot reading, drum circle frequenting, pierced, tatooed, liberal, cohabitating, coffee, tea and alcohol drinking budding vegetarian with occasional “Whopper” cravings, ….
BUT
My two boys are clean cut, conservative, anti drug, alcohol, tea, tobacco, relationship wary, soft spoken straight A student intellectuals. Despite my best efforts. Despite daily access to beer and coffee, internet porn and an inordinate lack of parental supervision (they are 19 and 20 and I am a single Dad that works a lot). I asked them “why not” many times and they simply tell me thay have no interest in any of it. They choos not to, even without external rules and regulations. That is very authentic, and empowered, in my view and I have a great deal of respect for their decision. That said, I occasionally attempt to drag them to the tatoo studio for a starter tat, alas to no avail…
WTF?
I suppose every child finds a way to rebel against Dad, right?
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 2:01 pm
Me too G-ma, me too.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 2:03 pm
PapaKrok, so the condensed version of your comment is: Mormons don’t want other Mormons to drink coffee, alcohol (or even have sex outside of marriage) because they are so miserable from abstaining that they want everyone else to be miserable, too.
[This is me rolling my eyes]
Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2010 @ 2:30 pm
Interesting article, PapaKrok, slanted, but interesting and a bit sad. I really wonder if the self-righteousness and sometimes condescending attitude taken by our administrators, school officials, stake leaders, etc. perpetuate the attitude that we must focus on the faults and failures, the differences in attitude and behavior, and judge people harshly because of perceived infractions. It’s almost as if our individual worth and value has become hinged on our ability to correct or redirect other people’s behavior.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 2:37 pm
Petunia,
I really liked your post. It is annoying when people get preachy. Don’t be too hard on your friend. He’s likely reacting the way he is because he’s been taught to.
Comment by Hemi — July 13, 2010 @ 2:38 pm
PapaKrok, this statement is wrong, if you are trying to apply it to the purpose behind the WoW. I will accept, however, if you meant this to refer to the thought patterns of much of the membership….and not to the actual reason the church holds so strongly to the WoW.
And your wrong about
What breed indignation is dissatisfaction, regardless of what you are doing. It is not abstinence. Abstinence cannot breed jealousy, envy, or even disgust. It is merely a personal choice. It is the weakness of personal character that allows jealousy, envy and disgust in what others do.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 2:48 pm
These threads always remind me of a quote I read not long ago.
“Raising my eyebrow and opening my mouth are two different things”
There are some things we need to speak out against and there are some things that we may not approve of but aren’t our business. It is a trick to figure out which of those things is which and with whom. I have stewardship over my children so I’d say a lot more about their choices then I would to my friends or ward members or people in general. BUT there are times when something needs to be said either by way of teaching or as a concern or offer of help. In those situations though you really have to tread carefully and I think be pretty clear with yourself why you feel the need to speak up.
As for your friend…I could see him trying to be diligent in what he understands his position in the church to be. I just looked over the new Duty to God book and they seem to be pushing learn your duty and act on it. He may have felt he was doing his duty and acting. He may see it as no different than a person in a calling acting on it…but it will take him time and experience to learn which things to act on and which not to and what a great opportunity for you to remind him to beware of being judgemental.
Comment by jpwllms — July 13, 2010 @ 2:53 pm
Keith,
I have a lot of ExMo friends that went absolutely hog wild when they left the church because thay had repressed their natural urges and could not self regulate. Moderation seems almost impossible for someone leaping from the church, though it does return with time. They often find themselves unable to have just one drink and they drink till they pass out in the bathroom. They smoke a pack a day right out of the chute, or they get very premiscious and dangerous with their sexual ecounters, often mixed with alcohol… there doesn’t seem to be a middle ground for many as “dipping a toe” equates to “diving in”. Drinking coffee means setting up shop on North Temple and hooking…to them. The comparison between WoW violations and sexual sin is everywhere…there doesn’t seem to be a delineation. As if a beer unlocks the inner demon. It does disinhibit, but only amplifies what is already there to begin with.
That is my point. Those that abstain may not feel totally in control of themselves and are angry, or resentful, of those that are able to exercise a measure of control over themselves in the absence of external structure…
I agree with the dissatisfaction piece though. In the LDS context, this is integral to abstnance. Part and parcel.
PS “You are wrong” is a fear based statement…what’s up with that? “I don’t agree” is more empowered.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 3:02 pm
Petunia,
Great first post. I think people are so preachy because human nature is to judge. I think, as some people have said, that judging others can help one feel more righteous and justified in their actions/opinions. Whats sad is that those actions are in direct contradiction to what is in the scriptures.
As for the WoW, I’m not quite clear on it myself. It says “hot drinks”. I know Brigham Young interpreted that to be coffee and tea. But why are herbal teas okay? Or how about hot chocolate? They are hot. Chocolate also naturally contains caffeine. So does Diet Coke and for most Mormons in Utah you’d have to pry it out of their cold, dead hands before they’d give it up.
I also find that most Mormons don’t adhere to the command to eat meat sparingly. Also, what is the difference between a “mild” drink and a “strong” drink?
The biggest issue I have with Mormons who would judge you on your drinking of coffee (and I’m right there with you girl) is that they are picking and choosing which parts of the scriptures to obey. I hated that kind of hypocrisy as a Catholic and I still don’t find it palatable.
Comment by Dancer 007 — July 13, 2010 @ 3:04 pm
thank you Papakrok and G-ma. I get what you are saying….I hope no one will take offense but read the posts a little more carefully. Being LDS doesn’t mean we can’t think freely and open-mindedly if we wish……,. I too, hate being told that I think a certain way because of my faith.
RQ
Comment by RQ — July 13, 2010 @ 3:05 pm
Fear based? Nah,….I was just being bold and decisive.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 3:06 pm
PapaKrok, I think that the Church asks its members to abstain because they know how difficult it is to control particular urges. Most of the people I know are almost addicted to drinking on weekends. Without it they do not know what to do with their time. They never feel free without alcohol in their system. I work with people who drink coffee as if it were food. They depend on coffee to keep them awake and neglect the ever wonderful idea of just going to bed and getting some sleep. I work with people who deceive their spouses and who fool around on their relationships. Now, I could never live as a monk. To give up so much of what this body can enjoy would drive me crazy. Having tasted the fruits of passion, I’m hooked. But like you said in your post…right time, right place.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
Keith,
Truth is relative and cannot be proven empirically.
Therefore “You are wrong” is not really a valid viewpoint, thought that is exactly what one would expect from someone adhering to a structure that claims “absolute truth”. That is exactly the kind of mindset that Petunia is questioning here.
What is good for me is right for me regardless of what you may think or feel. Your judgement is irrelvant and is based on your own subjective interpretation of what you feel to be right for you. It doesn’t apply, in many cases, beyong the end of your own nose. My opinions is borne out by personal observation and history, as well as a great deal of case study. Is it truth. Nope, just a significant trend… and a belief based on empirical evidence.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
Keith,
It still looks like fear to me. I know good church members that exibit the same behaviors BTW…what about an unhealthy addiction to prayer, church activities, scripture reading, etc as a means to deal with external stressors???
I mean, seriously, how healthy is it to interject every conversation with scripture or docterine, or to have to pray about even the most mundane choices before one can be made. I work with OCD inmates that exibit the same symptoms.. wondering if unseen minions are observing their every move or worried that they may make a wrong decision…looking for signs or symbols to validate their course of action…Addiction is a funny creature, it will dissapear in one area and appear in another unless there is room for expression….
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 3:17 pm
I was just rereading Petunia’s post to see if we were actually answering her questions, then came back to the comments and found RC’s. Petunia mentioned feeling unwelcome at church. Then RC mentioned free spirits and open-mindedness. I think that is why we are all here. I believe we can’t let them drive us out or there won’t be any free spirits in church, and that would be tragic IMO. So, I would say to Petunia and all the others, just don’t let them intimidate you if you want to be in or at church. I think Petunia handled her friend very well, and maybe gave him a chance to think about being a little more of an open-minded person. That’s about the best we can hope for.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 3:22 pm
That is a great insight. Thanks Keith!
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
PapaKrok…I agree that many church members are addicted to a lot of behaviors…Sort of like the bible-carrying guy at school. Nothing could be said to him that he would attempt to respond by reading something out of the “good book.” He knew no other way…and that was sad. I think too many members do not think for themselves, and therefore they dish out or regurgitate those things they have been fed without thinking or attempting to figure things out for themselves.
And I don’t accept that truth is relative and cannot be proven empirically. Just because we don’t understand all the particulars of a given situation does not change the fact that everything we do produced a specific result. Things change, circumstances change, situations change, but the effects of cause will always be the same. That is why posts like this exist. Petunia is questioning the logic of a boy’s arguments because of a tremendous amount of inconsistency among members in areas that are similar to what her friend condemned. When judgment is passed, we need to take into account everything that is part of it…and as difficult as that is, it is really the only way, I think, that any of us can refrain from becoming lost in the atrocity of intellectual and emotional blindness.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 3:28 pm
Hmm. Are you the same PapaKrok who just said:
All this judgement aimed at those who abstain. The most judgemental comments I have read on this thread are yours, Papakrok. Maybe you should just take a dose of your own medicine, so I’ll tell you: What is good for me is right for me regardless of what you may think or feel. Your judgement is irrelvant and is based on your own subjective interpretation of what you feel to be right for you. It doesn’t apply, in many cases, beyong the end of your own nose
Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2010 @ 3:33 pm
Stephanie makes me laugh….a lot. (in a good way)
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 3:36 pm
We set those rules, and we didn’t have a rebellion. But, it’s hard to make that call for all households, since the dynamics & people vary. One family in my Ward had to let their daughter live under their roof with her boyfriend, since she was pregnant, & they didn’t want her to run away again. They later got married, but then divorced after about 5 years.
Comment by Mike H. — July 13, 2010 @ 3:38 pm
You know, I wonder if the problems we have with chastity and WoW are exacerbated by the fear a lot of members have in speaking about them. At home, I was taught that sex is wonderful, it feels good, and it is difficult to control so the Lord asked us to refrain until marriage. At church (by my teachers and not the church), I was taught that sex is wrong, that it stops being wrong when you are married, and that all forms of alcohol are wrong. None of that ever made sense to me. If I have a fever or the flu and all I have is a bit of whiskey around, damn it if I am not going to heat it up, throw in some honey and drink down a shot medicinally. I have that control, and I have abstained from recreational use of alcohol all my life. I am not bitter towards those who drink…it’s their choice. I have never tasted an alcoholic beverage..but so what? Personally, I pride myself in that fact. Socially, what in the world does it matter? I went to parties in high school and college, and even afterwards for work. I was never tempted, because I never cared. The cost did not outweigh the benefits. That was my choice, and I have never attempted to push it onto other people. So don’t bag abstinence just because a lot of people who abstain are crap.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 3:45 pm
Absolutely they are. If they’re spoken about with reason and in a non-confrontational or condemning way there’s a total difference in how the message is received. Not only that but it lessens the guilt that builds up later when people fall. For example. Someone has a few drinks, that becomes more then they feel guilty about drinking which makes them drink more etc. Or the frequently talked about sex side you mention where many don’t receive the more reasoned approach at home that you did and can’t flip the switch directly from NO NO NO NO to oh, it’s okay because you’re married now. Then even what should be spiritual, and guilt free just still feels wrong.
The instruction tends to be so negative and begins from such a young age that it can set people up for failure instead of strengthening them against those outside forces if it doesn’t get more balanced at home.
Comment by Travis — July 13, 2010 @ 4:05 pm
Keith, I think you make a very good point there. It’s not that teaching abstinence is wrong, but that there are wrong ways to teach why you should be abstinent.
I think your example about how your parents taught you about sex, and how the church taught you about sex. Same with alcohol. I think the goal should be to give people all the information they need to come to the right conclusion for them. However, I think some people withhold some of that information out of fear of what people will do with it, and that they might make different choices, leading them to question their own actions.
Comment by Dancer 007 — July 13, 2010 @ 4:07 pm
#152
AMEN AND AMEN!
We had a period of time when we needed help with food, and rather than having to jump through all of the hoops and beg for assistance from our ward, we turned to the state. It kind of bothered me that the bishop is responsible for the material physical welfare of his members, but we were not offered any help even while my husband was unemployed for over a year. We asked him about it more than once, but he didn’t follow up with us. In the meantime, we ate a lot of unhealthy cheap food.
We also had medications to buy out of pocket for mental health and if we could have gotten help paying for them it would have been a huge relief and de-stresser. According to the handbook of instructions, we should be proactively taking care of these needs, and too often, we aren’t.
Comment by Emily A. — July 13, 2010 @ 4:07 pm
Aaron (232) (and others):
I guess I don’t understand the “but we’re allowed to eat red meat and drink soda” argument. If you believe the Lord forbids us to consume red meat and/or soda, then, please, don’t do it. Certainly (outside of Aaron’s admittedly bizarre example) the Church doesn’t force anyone to eat red meat or drink soda.
So … are we pining for even more rules … or are we arguing that because some baddish things aren’t prohibited, other baddish things shouldn’t be prohibited? Or, are we being judgmental of those who don’t drink coffee because they are not standard-bearers of good health in other regards?
Comment by Pan — July 13, 2010 @ 4:08 pm
Sorry, should have said “IMO”…oh, that’s right. I did…can’t see the words “you are wrong” anywhere…hmmm….
Don’t worry Stephanie. That was actually pretty insightful
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 4:08 pm
Wow, the first sentence of my second paragraph should read “I think your example about how your parents taught you about sex, and how the church taught you about sex really sums up that distinction”.
Comment by Dancer 007 — July 13, 2010 @ 4:08 pm
Pan (262),
My reason for voicing the meat argument is because limiting the consumption of animal flesh is written right under the guidelines against hot beverages and strong drink in the WoW. I don’t understand how you can claim I am not temple worthy because I had a cup of coffee, while you have your sixth hamburger of the week in your hand. Both of us are in violation of the WoW. Plain and simple.
Unless I missed something and Mormons are like Catholics and have venial and mortal sins, and coffee is a mortal sin and meat is a venial sin. Otherwise, I don’t think people should be allowed to pick and choose the scriptures to fit their need/condemnation of the moment.
Comment by Dancer 007 — July 13, 2010 @ 4:13 pm
KS #147 - loved your thoughts. Thank you.
Comment by Emily A. — July 13, 2010 @ 4:13 pm
To those that abstain…I don’t think I’ve ever based my decision to associate with anyone on what they choose to eat or drink. maybe that’s the difference.
You rarely have anyone say “I’m not going to lunch with so and so because they won’t drink coffee…” but there seems to be a great deal of the reverse going around. Admittedly, abstainers are sometimes left off the guest list because they have appeared to be quite uncomfortable in the past around the forbidden beverages, especially when they have been vocal about it… but I feel the decision was more for their benefit in an attempt to save them from obsessing over the open bar rather than to remove them from the friendlist in general. Sometimes its easier, for them, to see them in a less threatening context that doesn’t pressure them to “walk into the smokehouse”. IMO.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 4:19 pm
My regular disclaimer applies….all I know for sure about parenting is what not to do…..Out of my five kids, one became an alcoholic. While he was in a facility, getting better, his therapist,an active Mormon, prior Bishop, and all around good guy, told us that Mormon’s have a harder time because if they start drinking, the guilt causes an additional layer of problems. Do we let the kids just drink because of that fact? No! We teach them more about repentance, unconditional love, more how to think for themselves, maybe let them drink coffee so they can see the the world doesn’t end when they break the word of wisdom, and teach all of our kids that do follow the WoW to back off and not be so damn judgmental towards those that don’t, that way, they can be less judgmental of themselves.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 4:20 pm
“Abstinance breeds indignation (in certain people). It breeds judgement (in certain people). It breeds jealousy (in certain people), frankly. It doesn’t feel good (to certain people) to see others enjoying that which we feel is “sin” and we have to tell ourselves that they aren’t really happy, healthy, reighteous, etc. in order to feel good about our decisions to not participate.
Oh, okay. Certain people, sure. But, that’s a pretty wide brush you’re using.
When I was a kid, on Sunday we would frequently pass people with their boats on the way to fun. And you know what? They looked pretty damn happy. So, I must’ve figured out at a relatively early age that others’ happiness had nothing to do with my own choices.
I’m an adult. I’m choosing team Mormon. I’m not secretly or openly pissed at everyone else who isn’t. Not jealous, indignant, or even all that interested (except for those who drink and drive. Stop it now!!)
Comment by Lupita — July 13, 2010 @ 4:20 pm
How about we just take the WOW out of discussion for temple recommend interviews? I think that would solve a lot of the judgmental behavior. Maybe then we can set it aside as its intended format, which is a guideline, not a commandment. It says in the scriptures that:
Tell me if I’m wrong, but I think that pretty clearly states that its not a commandment and that it is a guideline. I don’t think its fair to start listing off the ways we approve or disapprove of parts of the WOW when it was only intended as a guideline that would bring promises of blessings from the Lord.
Modern prophets of the recent past have interpreted “hot drinks” to mean coffee, but I am still not convinced that whether or not I chose to drink coffee should keep me out of the temple when the Lord gave it to Joseph as a guideline.
Comment by Emily A. — July 13, 2010 @ 4:23 pm
Uh, nope, that can’t be it either, PapaKrok, because I never have either. What exactly are you trying to prove here?
Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2010 @ 4:23 pm
I drink coffee… I just don’t tell any one. I also love a big cup of $1 sweet tea from McDonalds on hot days when I have to drive hours in my car with broken air conditioning. When I was 22 I went out and bought myself a pack of Mike’s Hard Lemonade. I hated it, and couldn’t imagine why any one would drink that stuff. lol. I’ve also have champeign at weddings (still yuck) and a plastic cup with some white wine after a graduation party with my best friend’s parents (umm… that was good).
Why are we supposed to say no to these things? Because some people CAN’T say no. Like my uncle who has been in jail most of his adult life because he had a drug addiction, or my grandmother who is a mean alcoholic. They can’t say no. I think the point of our rules is to prevent us from having to TRY and say no, when we can’t. Because breaking addiction is hard, and it does terrible things to our bodies.
I noticed you listed those benefits, but if this is your “routine” there are negative side affects you need to consider too - like… my pretty white teeth that I paid for are now… yellow again. Darn coffee. lol. But that’s my own fault.
Really… I’ve tried everything I wanted to try, despite what the church told me. I wanted to be doing things because I felt they were right, and not just because some one to me so. Turns out I can’t make a decent cup of coffee on my own, I’m too poor to go by it every day, and I hate the taste of alcohol. lol. I think it’s okay to do things, as long as you are still in control of your decisions and your body. Once you feel like you can’t get through the day with out it, you may want to reconsider.
Your friends care about you, and they’re showing that in the best way they know how… even though it seems stupid. People do stupid things. That doesn’t ever change.
Comment by J-Dub — July 13, 2010 @ 4:23 pm
IdahoGma 268, beautiful comment.
Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2010 @ 4:25 pm
#268 - IdahoG-ma. I would love to hear more about how you parent your kids. This rings so true to my desired parenting style.
Comment by Emily A. — July 13, 2010 @ 4:27 pm
Emily A. (270)
I second your idea of taking the WoW out of temple recommend interviews. Now if only we could actually get that implemented!
Comment by Dancer 007 — July 13, 2010 @ 4:28 pm
265:
So it’s a “fairness” issue?
Comment by Pan — July 13, 2010 @ 4:34 pm
Exactly what button is being pushed here Stephanie?
I was giving my opinion on why I THINK, as it is an opinion piece, people are so preachy about the WoW. Read that agin…OPINION PIECE…
MY OPINION as stated above, with words like might, may, maybe, perhaps…never said “wrong” or “truth” or “gospel” or “god said” anywhere in the post..this is a BLOG, isn’t it? Should I review the whole stream and adjust my OPINION to match the rest, or are you actually allowing for some out-of-the-LDS-box thinking here? Cmon.
That is what I am talking about when I say “judgement”. Thinking isn’t a crime…yet. Would you allow me to bring beer to your BBQ? I would allow you to not bring it to mine. That’s all I’m saying.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 4:34 pm
Wow, good question and topic. There’s no way I could read through all these responses but hopefully I’m not repeating somebody else.
The core of your question isn’t actually about drinking coffee, it’s about obedience and knowing what you really believe.
We don’t generally obey things we don’t believe. We won’t believe things without some kind of proof or reason. And with God, we don’t get proof or reason until we exercise faith.
Why? Because the exercise of faith is the only way to “KNOW” God, to have a meaningful relationship with him, and that is the end reason why we are here, to know God.
So the question isn’t really “why should I obey the word of wisdom when there are coke drinking mormons and hi fructose corn syrup chuggin saints?” the question is, what kind of relationship do you want to have with God? Do YOU believe He gave us the Word of Wisdom knowing all the things that you know? And if not, are you willing to exercise some faith to know for sure?
That’s the answer to your question, it’s not about them preaching, it’s about you challenging yourself to know what you truly believe. A sincere and honest effort to know God will always yield results. If you really want to know why you shouldn’t drink coffee, challenge yourself by being obedient, then pray for an answer that you can know for yourself.
The challenge is yours. The experience and answer will be yours. And the closeness to God will be yours. Those are treasures that will resonate throughout this life and the next.
Do not take this challenge to what you do as “preaching”, take it for the opportunity it really is, a chance to dig deeper into who you are and what you believe.
Good luck.
To address the subject of preaching:
I think we (people in general) do go into preach mode too easily, especially about commandments that are easily identifiable as being “broken”. My council to your friend and anybody else is that the road to obedience is littered with lessons we learn from disobedience. It’s unavoidable. Friendships make those lessons easier, and is the essence of the long suffering and patience that define charity. Don’t be so quick to point out others faults. Enjoy their lives, their quirks, and pray that you can appreciate them as much as the Lord does.
Be a true friend. Eventually, they will either learn from your example, ask you your advice or if you are really concerned, the spirit will direct you what to do. Either way, any lesson you teach will have 100 times the effect uninvited/unprompted preaching would and you will have had a valued and treasured friendship in the meantime.
Comment by Luis — July 13, 2010 @ 4:34 pm
That’s not under debate, projecting that belief on others is, especially in the form of social sanction or verbal derission…
Even a venti non fat soy latte.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 4:38 pm
Pan (276):
It’s not a “fairness” issue by a long shot.
Fact: We are advised to use animal flesh “sparingly” in the WoW
Fact: We are advised to abstain from hot beverages and strong drink in the WoW
Those are both facts. They are both written in D&C 89. And in D&C 89, neither is given more importance over the other.
So, if I have a “hot beverage” and you do not eat animal flesh sparingly, then we are BOTH in violation of the WoW. Someone who eats beef 5 nights a week is not more righteous than I am, even though I have coffee.
As I said, its not a fairness issue, it’s an issue with using the scriptures to suit your purposes and bring someone else down, while lifting yourself up.
Comment by Dancer 007 — July 13, 2010 @ 4:40 pm
“Even a venti non fat soy latte.”
Nope, that ain’t coffee. If you’re gonna do it, you gotta take it black, straight up.
Comment by Lupita — July 13, 2010 @ 4:43 pm
283. You are hardcore. I salute you.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 4:45 pm
PapaKrok, the button where you come on here and think it is your right to start slamming Mormons. Saying I think that all Mormons who abstain are “angry, or resentful, etc.” does not change the fact that you are calling abstaining Mormons angry and resentful.
Would it be okay if I started saying, “I think black people are [some derogatory opinion]” or “I think all Catholics are [some other derogatory opinion]” NO! Thoughtful discussion is one thing. Using the thoughtful discussion to just bag on Mormons is not welcome.
I didn’t want to do this, but let me drag out the comment policy again for you:
That would include comments that suggest that all believers who abstain (per Mormon “rules”) are judgemental, indignant, jealous, preachy, lack self control, angry, resentful, etc. just for the fact that they are abstaining Mormons (even if it is your opinion).
Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2010 @ 4:53 pm
Okay. Minor threadjack. Sorry, Petunia.
I wasn’t going to share this but I will. Hold onto your testimonies.
I have a copy of part of a dissertation given me by one of my professors. The title of the dissertation is “The Historical Development of the Doctrine and Covenants Volume II”. Verse thirteen of section 89. According to the author’s research, prior to the 1921 edition of the D&C, there was no comma after the word “used”. The author goes on to state that “according to T. Edgar Lyons, Joseph Fielding Smith, when shown this addition to the text, said” “Who put that in there?”
I’m not defending the eat meat at every meal folk. But, I’m not willing to cast stones at them either.
Comment by Lupita — July 13, 2010 @ 4:54 pm
285 Stephanie, you pull out that same thing everytime you get mad. Reread the posts. you are projecting. Apples and oranges. Chill out. Have a beer.
Maybe it should read:
As a general matter, (fMh) is a forum for believing members or for others who are willing to respect members’ beliefs. Commenters do not need to believe in the Church, but comments that suggest that all believers are per se unintelligent or uninformed or disagree in any way, shape or form, or present opinions that may be considered offensive to any member of the faith in anyway are not welcome.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 5:00 pm
PapaKrok
The use of “We” & “our” in the 11th article of faith refers to the church organization and those that belong to it. “Allowing all men the same privilege…” is a reference to those not belonging to the church.
So yes, if you are not a member of the church and want a “venti non fat soy latte”, that is your privilege.
Asking our members to consider the words of our prophets and be obedient to them is no different than the ten commandments. It is given to us and it is our privilege to obey, or disobey.
But it is not up to us to CHANGE the commandments for our own sense of self. The desire to reason around the limit of commandment, council, and advice is not something new.
You say that the debate isn’t about obedience & what you believe, I say it cannot be about anything else. Until that is answered, there is no foundation for reasoning.
Comment by Luis — July 13, 2010 @ 5:07 pm
You must not be very familiar with FMH.
I am putting you in moderation, PapaKrok. That means that you are welcome to comment, but your comments will need to be approved by a moderator before appearing.
Comment by Stephanie — July 13, 2010 @ 5:08 pm
PapaK:
you know you’ve really screwed up as a parent when they come out to you as….Republican!
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 5:10 pm
Lupita,
I don’t think that makes much sense, considering the overall message of those verses. The phrase in verse 15 which goes “only in times of famine and excess of hunger” makes a fairly strong case for the insertion of the comma. Seems like someone was doing some pretty wishful thinking about that one comma.
Comment by ClaudiaHen — July 13, 2010 @ 5:14 pm
#285 Lupita - I was taught this in a D&C class at BYU and debated whether or not to share it. I am glad you did because you have the source whereas I just have a memory.
If you remove the comma as you stated, it changes the whole context of the sentence about meat. We should eat meat sparingly, but use it whenever we want throughout the year, and then grains are for the use of man in times of famine.
Our teacher told us that they didn’t remove the comma in the corrected version of the BOM because it would cause too much controversy. Now I wish they did.
Comment by Emily A. — July 13, 2010 @ 5:23 pm
I have a drinking problem? F&$* you, Peck, you’re a Mormon. Compared to you we ALL have a drinking problem!
I find it interesting that on a post asking why mormons gotta be so preachy, at least half the comments are pretty heavy-handed preaching.
Comment by julie — July 13, 2010 @ 5:29 pm
i’d say you need to meet some new people.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 5:32 pm
I don’t think it’s so much preaching as it is discussion. When we share ideas or our views of things around us, it is common for those who want to justify thing they do to call it “preachy.” But really, in preachy there is judgment…and in most of the comments here that I have read, I see discussion about viewpoints….not heavy-handed preaching (except perhaps against those who actually are being preachy
)
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 5:37 pm
and can i just say that if the people you know are waiting until the weekend to drink, they’re pretty dang responsible. it’s when they CAN’T wait that you should begin to worry.
having a couple drinks over the weekend with friends doesn’t mean a person has a drinking problem.
/sigh.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 5:39 pm
293…I agree, but mostly I am recluse. Most of the people I know bore me, but I used to try…I really did. So most of the people I know are at work and they are young, weekend binge drinkers and partiers. It’s what they do….I not condemning them, just mentioning a trend around me.
And meeting new people is precisely why I spend my spare time here!
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 5:40 pm
I’m not talking a couple drinks…I’m talking flat out drunk at least 2 to 3 days out of the week…coming in to work with hang-overs.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 5:41 pm
Besides, I’m not again the occasional use of alcohol as a beverage…I just choose not to do it. It’s not the alcohol, but what it does to you in large quantities that I don’t like. I also hate how it smells.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 5:42 pm
Caffeine is not specifically mentioned in the WoW and by the late 80’s when I graduated from BYU the first presidency was very specific it was not forbidden. Since then a little more of a mixed signal. But it isn’t just Mormons that do this anything that people think is out like riding a motorcycle get a lecture from people that think it is too dangerous. So do riding bicycles without helmets and so on.
I also do not believe Mormons follow any or of much of what is written in the D&C. The WoW that we live isn’t there in any real form.
Comment by Jerry — July 13, 2010 @ 5:51 pm
#292
I loved that part of that movie. I got the giggles something fierce and my sister (whose only exposure to the church is me) just didn’t get it. Which is odd I guess, you think it would be the opposite.
Comment by Emma — July 13, 2010 @ 5:55 pm
Keith sounds like my friends. Or even me. I might not do that every week, but you know, sometimes there is just a lot of partys goin on. But to everything there is a season, in my opinion.
For example, they might get pregnant and have stop drinking alcohol (and coffee, just to be on the safe side) all at once (ahem, like I did two weeks ago). (And of course, once the kid has arrived, I don’t think we will be going out as much as we do now. But it sure was fun while it lasted.)
And you know wonder of wonders, I didn’t have horrible withdrawal or anything else that many people (who not surprisingly have never drunk either alcohol or coffee) think is going to happen. It ain’t not thang. Because I didn’t have a latte every morning because I am horribly addicted to coffee anymore than i had a vodka tonic (or 3) on a wednesday night when out with friends because I am addicted.
It may surprise you to realize some people drink like this because…gasp…its fun. They aren’t addicted. They just like it. I come from a family of addicts. Drinking socially, even heavily, does not an alcoholic make.
I mean, whats it to you that people come to work hungover? Do you even know what its like to be hungover? Or to be drunk? So how on earth can you judge? Are these people somehow infringing on you because they like to go out and drink? I just don’t have any idea why you would even care at all. It kinda makes me think PapaKrok has a point.
Comment by julie — July 13, 2010 @ 5:57 pm
It’s a movie quote. Its from “Burn After Reading”. I don’t think it was meant to be disrespectful. It was actually kinda funny in context within the flick.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0887883/
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 6:03 pm
I thought I was in time out. (Sneaks away quietly).
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 6:07 pm
I know! Totally shocked me!!
Where did I go wrong I wonder? I console myself by thinking that they must have been born that way.
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 6:10 pm
Totally!
Comment by PapaKrok — July 13, 2010 @ 6:11 pm
290 Makes sense to me. Glad it didn’t shake anyone’s testimony.
Emily A., dang, and I was feeling all special and stuff. Glad to hear that you had, imo, an excellent D&C teacher.
Comment by Lupita — July 13, 2010 @ 6:32 pm
300 comments–have we scared off Petunia? I know I usually give up after 150 if I haven’t commented yet. I can’t imagine the strain of getting my head around this much discussion on the first blog I ever wrote.
Good luck. This really is a fabulous beginning.
Comment by ChrisKay — July 13, 2010 @ 6:36 pm
“The biggest issue I have with Mormons who would judge you on your drinking of coffee (and I’m right there with you girl) is that they are picking and choosing which parts of the scriptures to obey. ”
This misses the point, generally speaking.
There are two related principles that are generally being left out of this discussion. One is the principle of historical development, the second is the idea of sola scriptura.
Put otherwise, many here seem to think that whatever Joseph Smith did, however it was in his day, we should do, end of story. However it was in Joseph’s day, that’s how it should be today.What about line upon line? What about revelation and prophets? What about changed circumstances? How many of you are ready to line up to live Joseph’s revelation on polygamy? Or are you glad for revelation that ended it? We have to recognize that there is change in the Church, whether we like it (polygamy) or not (WoW becoming binding in the 1930’s).
The related issue is that unlike Protestants, but like Catholics and Jews, we are not scripture-based. We have an intermediary of authoritative interpreters (prophets and apostles), similar to the Pope/magesterium for the Catholics and the rabbis (ancient and modern) for the Jews. No, we don’t follow D&C 89 as its written, nor any other scripture. We follow the collective interpretation(s) of the prophets and apostles. They’re the ones who decide (presumably under inspiration) the temple recommend questions and standards. Nate Oman spells this out best in a Dialogue article “the living oracles” but it’s all over the teachings of JS, BY and others on down to the present.
To act otherwise renders us into de facto sola scriptura protestants, believing in a static Bible-based (or scripture-based) Church.
Comment by Ben S — July 13, 2010 @ 7:17 pm
Ben S…thank you for reminding me. Every once in a while I ask myself, why am I having trouble with my faith in the Mormon church, then I remember that many in the faith believe we are not a Bible-based (or scripture-based) Church. So, I give my forehead a smack and say “Oh, yeah, I believe that Christ had it right the first time.”
I have heard many truths from the prophets and apostles, all of those truths that I buy into, (because I have prayed about them and been given confirmation), are the ones that can be substantiated by the original gospel as was taught by Christ himself, but then I consider myself a Christ centered Mormon. What can I tell ya? As far as believing JS - I was with the boy right up till polygamy. Then I had to start asking those pesky questions again. He and I parted ways, pretty much like I think he did with the inspiration at that point. And then there was BY. Hooohhhh, boy. That’s another kettle of fish. But the bottom line is I do believe in modern day revelation and inspiration, I just am really, really careful who I believe is being given it. And the litmus test is…. does it coincide with the Gospel according to Christ.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 7:46 pm
282, 284 286
P krok, you are wrong about fmh and about Stephanie. Try reading this thread or the plig civil war thread when you are sober and you will see that.
But I sympathize, bc I gave up sobriety for Lent and when I came off the bender I found I had been banned or moderated from some of my favorite blogs.
never had a dui, but i’ve paid a price for posting under the influence.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 8:08 pm
Ok, so, I cant read all of these and then respond to you all, but i’m reading a lot of simiiar things, but I promise to read them all eventually. First things first, I do not drink coffee every morning, I fully put that one on my mama, sorry mom. Also, i wasn’t trying to ask why just mormons are preachy or anything like that, and the whole he said nevermind thing, as to be “reaspectful” or “responsible’ isnt really that way, the previous night we had discussed another matter, and i really believe he wasnt saying anything this time to not offend me, but im not afraid to discuss certain topics and he knows that, also sometimes teenagers say “nevermind” to get you to say something else, like bait. So, in reality, he didnt have to say anything at all.
what i am reading is a whole lot of ” people/ mormons” like to “police” each other, and i see a lot of you policiing each other. Which i suppose is bound to happen, but is sort of ironic in its way.
i do not drink coffee in large quanties or often, so I am fairly sure i wont have withdrawal. its not heroin or some other crazy hardcore drug, or alcohol. also if you wnat to discuss the addictive qualites of coffee, you should know that the high-fructose corn syrup in soda and chips and all other products that contain it, tend to be addictive, too. That is why it is hard to stop eating junk food and because a lot has been injested, all the fattening ingredients help your body to gain weight.
Im sorry, but what in the world does green tea and splenda and acquired taste have to do with this? i mean i understand tea being relevant, but I feel this whole thing has been “threadjacked”, which i was told was bound to happen.
i appreciate you all commenting and for your opinions. I must say though that I wasn’t trying to push my views upon him, I know that I am no one to tell him what he is to like and dislike, and I understand that he may have been looking out for me, we were just discussing more of why i drink coffee and I was just trying to understand why it is okay to drink caffeinated beverages but not coffee/tea. I believe we had both been provacative that day and no one is to blame. I was curious as to why soda is ok but not coffee and that is about it.
once agian thanks for the comments, it was really unexpected.
Comment by petunia — July 13, 2010 @ 8:13 pm
did you catch that announcement up there? julie d is having a baby!
she was kinda stealthy about it. lil sucker.
and P, I know all these comments are overwhelming and you didn’t have time today to respond like you planned. thanks for giving us the only 20 free minutes you had.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 8:31 pm
#303 Ben S.
I appreciated your comment. Thank you for your thoughts.
The thing I don’t understand is how we are supposed to keep track of what doctrines the church supports and which ones they don’t if we can’t use the scriptures as the final say. For example: the church supports some of what Brigham Young said and doesn’t support other things that he said. Yet, he is a prophet so he is quoted all the time at church along with McConkie.
Are we supposed to drop anything a prophet says if it isn’t modern? If that is true then every time someone drops a quote that was written before I was born in 1977 will get a big shrug off from me. And, if this is the one true church, then how could doctrines taught in the past not be valid today as they were 200 years ago?
My point is that the brethren are not infallible, although at times they are inspired. In my mind, the scriptures are the only source we have besides the promptings of the Holy Ghost that tells us what is true. The Holy Ghost hasn’t confirmed to me that drinking coffee will effect my eternal salvation.
I don’t picture a grandiose vision every time the apostles meet in the upper rooms of the temple, and I don’t believe they would reveal something greater than what is found in the scriptures. We are a scripture based church and the modern prophets enhance our belief in the scriptures. They do not supersede them.
#306 Petunia. You are awesome.
You are dead on about corn syrup.
Comment by Emily A. — July 13, 2010 @ 8:40 pm
Petunia, you are his friend. From what you said, I suspect that he respects and cares about your opiniom and so do we.
Thank you foe an interesting thread.
If you meant to only talk about coffee rather than the wow and judgment in general , then please let us know.
Comment by Pnut — July 13, 2010 @ 8:45 pm
President Benson said to take take your eyes off the prize, exaltation. This calls in large part, for members to reject worldly doctrines. Be in the world but not of the world. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord. If members come across as preachy, what can you do?
Comment by Winifred — July 13, 2010 @ 8:46 pm
Bah..sorry for the tread jacking…I’m rantin again.
Comment by Emily A. — July 13, 2010 @ 8:51 pm
see comment 103.
she’s on the defense because a lot of you act like she’s gonna become a heroine addict because she has the occasional coffee.
…live and learn,live and learn.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 8:54 pm
Bless her heart.
232 — we talked about meat last Sunday, it is how I got that song in people’s head (”and the children but they eat, but a very little meat …”). Of course I eat a lot of yogurt, some eggs (someone has to, we have pet chickens), more yogurt.
Stephanie —
Which was a phrase used by the temperance movement. Joseph Smith opposed it, Emma Smith had sympathies for it, the brethren asked Joseph to seek a revelation to put Emma and others in their place. God agreed with Emma.
However, the real focus came on it when tobacco changed the way it was cured for cigarettes.
Though it is fun that we now have a poster pushing the joys and virtues of smoking …
then we are BOTH in violation of the WoW — but your sins don’t excuse my sins (or infractions if you prefer that term for this issue).
285/ Lupita — yes, you have hit the alternate reading, which states that meat is not to be limited only to times of scarcity or famine or such.
Which is why though I eat less meat than many, I won’t feel bad at all providing it for guests this Saturday.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — July 13, 2010 @ 9:08 pm
I’m two years older than you, so maybe I’m a little more cynical and jaded, but the message at the beginning would have driven me crazy (even at 16). Just because you’re a little bit younger than most, doesn’t mean your not just as intelligent or ready to argue the issues.
Any time you’re not living exactly within the bounds set, some people within the church feel like it is their job to save your soul
On the bright side, they have good intentions, they’re just trying to help
Comment by Julia — July 13, 2010 @ 9:25 pm
Sorry if this is a repeat, I didn’t read all the posts. I think people (especially in the church, but it can be applied elsewhere) like to preach/police/nag/judge/look out for others in their culture/community because it helps them to know who is with them and who is against them. If a person believes that there is one right way to live (as in following the one true LDS church rules), it can cause internal conflict when that person starts seeing alternatives to the single way they were taught is right/good/superior. In order to keep the illusion that one way is best for ALL (not just themselves), they have to keep enough people around them doing/saying similar things, to make the illusion seem real (if you live in a place where LDS are minorities, you might often point out how you are extra strong against the odds, that you must be super righteous when surrounded by unbelievers, but it’s already clear who the “others” are and how you might bring them to the one true church). If you live around lots of LDS the sheer numbers might make you think that you must be on the right track if everyone else is “doing” their part in creating the illusion of ONE WAY. Seeing alternatives/rule breaking puts a crack in the illusion, so we try to know who might be introducing those cracks and how we can prevent them. The system has a built-in way to keep everyone on track–we “looking out for” others on simple things like what they eat/drink or how long their skirts are, or if they have acceptable facial hair/hair lengths–things you can bring up casually or notice visually. If people can’t do these small things, then what is to say that they will truly listen to the one true prophet of God? That they will always choose the church over their non-member relatives? That they will vote a certain way at the polls? That they will give 10% of their income to supporting the church? What is to say they won’t break our illusion of the one true church being supreme to all other abominations called “religions”? Being preachy is really just necessary preservation.
Comment by BigSister — July 13, 2010 @ 9:45 pm
BigSis….I buy that.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 10:38 pm
Petunia, thanks for your thoughtful comments. The fact that you even attempt to follow some of our meandering opinions is laudable. You are so wise to realize the typical American diet is unhealthful. Hope you enjoy the rest of your summer!
Stephen M–Sure wish I could be at the snacker and share some meat (or not) with all you Texans.
Comment by Lupita — July 13, 2010 @ 10:55 pm
So they can’t tell you anything that hasn’t already been said? God can’t reveal anything that hasn’t already been revealed? What kind of prophets are those? What about the 9th article of faith? “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”
Agreed that there’s some ambiguity and difficulty in the general question, but not with the Word of Wisdom. The interpretation has been remarkably monolithic for many decades now. Flout it if you want, but don’t be surprised when your Bishop or SP taking their cues from SLC don’t agree with your personal interpretation.
Nor does ambiguity free us from any and all responsibility.
Comment by Ben S — July 13, 2010 @ 10:58 pm
REally? Tell that to Peter about the Law of Moses.
Comment by Ben S — July 13, 2010 @ 11:00 pm
Ben S…Peter was corrected about his belief of the Law of Moses not being fulfilled with Christ. Scripture is scripture, however, and just because ancient scripture exists, doesn’t mean that the current prophet or the ones in the past could add to it. Their interpretation is what led to the blacks not having the priesthood, but their interpretation was racially biased. Interpretation is not doctrine. It is only an attempt at understanding. We are now and always have been a church based in scripture….else JS would never have bothered trying to restore lost parts of the bible, and the BofM would never have been necessary.
Comment by Keith — July 13, 2010 @ 11:06 pm
BenS….in reply, I started to explain to you what I meant, then I realized how badly you twisted my meaning and decided it was a waste of time. I said it as plain as I could and that will have to do. Your interpretation of what I said was way off. I think you just didn’t like what I had to say, and I can’t do anything about that.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 11:16 pm
Anyway, Keith nailed it.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 11:18 pm
Wow, got through all of them. Interesting conversation.
In the end Coffee vs caffeinated beverages…. there really is not a rule of thumb for what we are allowed to eat/drink and what we are not (speaking from the angle of the Church). Some say it’s the caffiene, but if so why are energy drinks okay? Some say it the temperature, but if so why is sugar chokes hot chocolate okay?
In the end it comes down to a “because the leaders of the Church say so”.
If you think those leaders are inspired in this area, great! Then don’t drink it. If you think those leaders aren’t inspired in this area, great! Do what you think is best.
Either way it’s a fully personal decision, but alas it too has effects, even if they are only a friends disapproval.
Comment by April — July 13, 2010 @ 11:30 pm
April…good job, I think you did it. I’d say it is answered for me any way.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 11:45 pm
PS: mfranti… don’t hate me lol–I know you just don’t want idiotic trolls to go after your daughter’s post.. My goal is *not* to corrupt your daughter, just saying that, from the comments of hers I’ve read before and from this post, she seems more intelligent than most adults in the world
Comment by Julia — July 13, 2010 @ 11:50 pm
April and Keith thank you. I appreciated your comments and smile in agreement.
Comment by Emily A. — July 13, 2010 @ 11:51 pm
One more thing Petunia, something I learned during a couple of weeks of guest posting. The titles the clincher. Whatever is in the title rules the post, no matter what you mean or say. If its in the title that is the perceived main topic.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 13, 2010 @ 11:52 pm
Julia
hate you? for what? is there some hidden insult in your comment?
i read it as a compliment.
though, i don’t think she’s ever commented before.
Comment by mfranti — July 13, 2010 @ 11:55 pm
323-
We have scriptures that are considered our standard works, as in the standard by which we judge other things. The scriptures in the standard works do not change. We can count on those. We have modern day prophets to help us with understanding some of the scriptures, modern-day applications of the scriptures, and of course to act as God’s current mouthpiece. Our current prophet trumps all past prophets (i.e. when President Monson teaches something we don’t go back and say “But B.Y. said something else!”). Of course it is important to remember that the prophet is not always speaking as “The Prophet,” but sometimes he is speaking as just another member of the church (which admittedly can be difficult to determine which is which)
So it goes: 1. Standard works 2. Current prophet 3. Past prophets.
Or at least that is how I understand it.
Comment by KS — July 13, 2010 @ 11:55 pm
take two seconds to google “factory farming” and then please (anyone) explain how drinking coffee, alcohol, or anything else that is prohibited in the word of wisdom is worse than what the vast majority of people justify eating every day.
Comment by anonymous — July 14, 2010 @ 12:02 am
KC…I like it, Add prayer and the thing is that we aren’t on our own. We can know the will of the Lord.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 12:07 am
good point.
if we want to set up boundaries to maintain our peculiarity as a people and still reap the health benefits, we would have commandments that direct us to limit our meat intake, eat mostly grains and vegetables and only purchased foods that use sustainable agricultural practices, in season and locally or regionally grown.
we would also be commanded to grow as much of our own food as possible (pesticide free!) and using the most efficient of watering systems because being wasteful is not charitable.
we would aslo be commanded dramatically limit our sugar, salt and fat intakes because they have addictive qualities and cause health issues! (darn. no more green jello, ice cream and diet soda)
does anyone really believe the WoW is for our health and well being?
Comment by mfranti — July 14, 2010 @ 12:07 am
anonymous…you are not wrong!
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 12:09 am
I am behind that. Furthermore, I can do that.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 12:13 am
I am with Corktree (and mfranti) way back at the beginning of the discussion. This is what I keep thinking about. I don’t think it’s that big of a deal that he “preached” the WoW and scriptures after Petunia asked him for his opinion. I see two problems:
1. When she told him she was drinking coffee, he felt the need to remind her that it is “against our religion” (her words). Why would he feel that need?
2. He said that it is his duty as a priest. I just read the upcoming RS/EQ lesson from the Gospel Principles manual on Priesthood Authority. It outlines the responsibilities of each office. It sounds like he was actually citing the responsibilities of a teacher (which he would also have as a priest):
Here are the scriptures related to that:
I think that’s really interesting, particularly since teachers are 14 and 15 year old boys. I can understand how home teaching helps a boy fulfill the responsibility to “watch over the church, and be with and strengthen them”. But, I puzzle over the part about teachers being responsible to see that there is no iniquity in the church. What does that really mean? “warn, expound, exhort, and teach and invite all to come unto Christ” How does a 14 year old boy do that? And why?
I guess my point is that I think this boy ought to be cut some slack. It sounds like he was doing exactly what he was taught he should do (if the teachings are taken literally): helping church members live the commandments.
My bigger questions are these:
1. Why are teachers given this assignment?
2. Practically, how is it expected to be fulfilled?
3. How is it being taught to them?
Comment by Stephanie — July 14, 2010 @ 12:19 am
as to why the teachers are given this assignment… I think it’s a good thing to keep in mind that for a very long time teachers were no ordained as such until they were older. It’s different now, but not too long ago a teacher what older than 14 and 15 years old. I think that having an older leader in the church told to try to remind people of how they should be living is understandable, if annoying.
Comment by April — July 14, 2010 @ 12:25 am
wow typos, I need to go to bed. you get my drift though.
Comment by April — July 14, 2010 @ 12:26 am
The lesson for the YM on teacher responsibilities clarifies/downplays the language. Here is how it suggests fulfilling those responsibilities:
That’s much more what I would expect is appropriate for a 14 year old boy. But, I can see how a boy would read “Teachers in the Aaronic Priesthood are to help Church members live the commandments” and think it is his responsibility to call people to repentance.
Comment by Stephanie — July 14, 2010 @ 12:30 am
That’s a good point, April.
Comment by Stephanie — July 14, 2010 @ 12:30 am
#337, mfranti,
Why do you think that God should have to command us to stuff do common sense should tell us to do?
Comment by Pnut — July 14, 2010 @ 12:50 am
re 345 maybe because so many people lack common sense anymore and that common sense is not a requirement to be a member of the Church… as much as I wish more people had it, I know they don’t and I try not to talk myself into the delusion of thinking that even most people have common sense.
Comment by April — July 14, 2010 @ 1:01 am
Besides, isn’t “thou shalt not kill” kind of common sense too?
Comment by April — July 14, 2010 @ 1:02 am
My sister is visiting from Salt Lake for my mother’s eye surgery. I brought up how I have gravitated to fmh. My sister also thought the idea that coffee & caffeinated drink are a gateway drug is over the top.
I’ve had some relatives struggle with coffee. The WoW became more strict in the time of Heber J. Grant.
A good point, Ben. So, what if the whole Church is commanded to live the United Order? How many would accept, and how many would rebel? Revelation is a 2 edged sword.
As a side for this board, my sister mentioned that when my grandmother was small, that, yes, my grandmother knew that women went to the Temple when pregnant to get a special blessing for that condition, per another post here at fmh. I also mentioned the CLP snacker in Walnut Creek I went to. My sister had not heard of No More Goodbyes.
So, fmh may have another “convert” soon.
Side threadjack over.
Comment by Mike H. — July 14, 2010 @ 1:08 am
hmmm this is a really interesting topic, I am currently in medical school and have often wondered the same thing… as a nice cup of Joe sounds too good to be true… especially without the loads of sugar the one other cafeine beverage has.
But, I guess in my gut I have just learned that sometimes many of the “rules” of the church aren’t necessarily because coffee is from the devil, it really is for the majority of us who cannot just drink it occasionally. Just from my pewny experience thus far I can tell you that of 39 students in my class 37 are horribly addicted to the beverage and have to have it at least 2-3 times a day. They also have noticed such a dependance on it that without it, they cannot function or think clearly and also end up spending lots of money on it, since here in San Fran a cup of Joe costs about $3.75. So I guess, these “rules” I think are just to keep us far from that edge… so that we never even get to the point of “no return” or have it be a long arduous process.
I agree with that “preachy” attitude especially with returned missionaries, but be nice to him, because so many people especially if they only grew up and lived in Mormon culture don’t know how to respectfully approach it or ignore it. Hopefully he just wants the best for you and wants to see you have as many blessings as you could possibly have, versus even just one tiny one less.
If anything I really do believe when it comes to the word of wisdom, every day I learn more and more about our bodies in med school, and I am more and more convinced it is very inspired and not all of it is yet to be proven scientifically. but, most of it is… it’s just not as evident with coffee until you walk into a graduate classroom, or a graveyard nursing unit. But, don’t let others make decisions for you, but don’t make these decisions just to stand out, do it because you feel it is the right decision for yourself and your family (if you have one, which because you are 16, you probably don’t have a hubby etc… I hope
Hope that helped with my little insight, good luck with your questions and quest!
Comment by KWar — July 14, 2010 @ 2:01 am
Stephanie, I really think, having been a YM president in the past, that the church has become a little bit too culture oriented when it comes to the priesthood. When a boy turns 12, 14, and 16 he expects to be given the higher ordination of priesthood office. It is an expectation, regardless of how well he actually is ready for it. Bishop interviews generally border only on the young man’s moral worthiness for the priesthood, not his intellectual, emotional, or psychological worthiness for it. It is treated like a birthday gift, and though I have heard it argued that they church leaders do this to help ensure the young men stay worthy, it really doesn’t help that much and the young men have little respect for what the priesthood actually is.
Anyway, didn’t mean to threadjack (if I am), but I really think anybody who received any priesthood ordination should at least be fulfilling the previous priesthood office. That a 14 year old boy could or should call people to repentance? I don’t see any problem so long as it is done in the manner described in DC 121.
Comment by Keith — July 14, 2010 @ 2:21 am
Like it or not, the word of wisdom is a collective norm, a standard by which members of the church agree or expect to be judged upon joining. This doesn’t mean that members always comply nor does it mean that they even accept the premises upon which it is based.
The reality of inconsistent behavior doesn’t change the normative force of the word of wisdom, however. In The Anarchical Society Hedley Bull writes “if there were no possibility that actual behavior would differ from prescribed behavior, there would be no point in having the rule.”
Recognizing the gap between norms and behavior is just the beginning of understanding how norms work. The word of wisdom was neither created nor is it “enforced” (however haphazardly) in a vacuum. Rather than argue that since other members of the church consume unhealthy quantities of corn syrup, they can stuff it when it comes to coffee, it might be more productive, not to mention interesting, to examine how and why certain substances acquired such salience in certain Mormon contexts but not in others.
Comment by Peter LLC — July 14, 2010 @ 5:02 am
Keith, this just doesn’t sit well with me. I think this falls under aspects of priesthood authority in church administration that I don’t understand.
Comment by Stephanie — July 14, 2010 @ 8:18 am
Conversations like this always leave me slightly bemused. It can get hair-pulling with trying to draw lines.
But the point isn’t the lines, it’s the obedience. We should be looking for ways to better follow the Word of Wisdom in each of our lives (ie, more grains, less meat, more locally/seasonally grown foods, less junk food, for some cutting out hot/strong drinks and tobacco, etc.), not nitpicking over who isn’t following it and where the exact line is that shouldn’t be crossed.
Leave the minimal requirements where they are and move beyond the minimum where you can.
Comment by SilverRain — July 14, 2010 @ 9:11 am
Interesting topic. A few little observations, in no particular order.
1. Surely it’s been noted by now somewhere in other comments…expecting others to be okay with you doing something that is clearly outside the norm is expecting a lot (note that I’m not saying the behavior as you’ve outlined it is wrong - just against the norm). I’m a full grown man. A member friend of mine got coffee the other day when he’d ordered hot chocolate. He drank it anyway, right in front of me. I was okay with that, but I’ll admit to being very mildly shocked. I’m nearly 40, in a very sparsely Mormon populated area. So it’s not like I’ve never seen coffee drinking members before. A sixteen year old boy is not going to be able to deal with the same situation with any degree of aplomb. That’s a simple fact. He only has about three responses he can draw from in the first place, priesthood holder or not.
2. You’re dealing in negatives here. Do you think you would have gotten the same reaction if you were dealing in degrees of righteousness, rather than degrees of unrighteousness? Your argument is based around what other people do that is bad for their health. That’s a valid point of view, but it limits what you get out of it. What would have been more interesting and more fruitful would be to examine YOU more deeply, not others. I find it interesting that you were open and willing to admit what you were doing, but unwilling to take total ownership of it. Much like point #1, that’s probably something that age affects somewhat…though the world is full of adults that haven’t developed that capability. Your response was likely the best you had, too.
And that’s okay. You’re both young. You both dealt with the question in fairly effective ways. Nobody died. Nobody was permanently scarred. I always tell the kids that if we can get them to 21 or so without getting pregnant and without getting killed themselves, the rest will sort itself out with the onset of adulthood. Expecting either of you to handle this perfectly is just not rational. You both could have handled it better - his preachiness, as you put it, isn’t the only issue.
3. I’m very encouraged by your attempts to justify your behavior. That may sound odd after I’ve just called you to task over it - but it’s really the start of deeper thought. Over the years, I’ve learned several things that are “against the norm” of expected church behaviors - and they’re more correct ways anyway, without regard to what anyone else expects. The point being, turn your desires to justify things inward. Ask yourself harder questions.
Comment by Persimmon — July 14, 2010 @ 9:56 am
Just read the comments by #279, Luis. He and I have made the same points - and he did so more eloquently. Worth a read.
Comment by Persimmon — July 14, 2010 @ 10:09 am
I was at work. Haven’t had alcohol since last week.
PS
I’m just sayin, Pnut. Rules, if they apply at all, should apply to everyone on this forum…
Comment by PapaKrok — July 14, 2010 @ 10:44 am
Petunia,
As I read the conversation you’ve posted, it sounds like you did most of the preaching, not him. Since you are a convert, he may have really thought you didn’t know coffee was “against our religion.” And he tried to drop it anyway by saying, “never mind.” Then you challenged him to explain why he thought it mattered.
So, I don’t know why some members feel the need to police the actions of others in all cases, but I think in your case, you asked for it.
Comment by Robert — July 14, 2010 @ 10:53 am
Keith
If a 14 year old boy is in my house and calls me to repentance, my fingers are gonna be around his throat and his head is going through the drywall. Then the twerp is going to repair the damage his head caused.
Then maybe, If He’s ever allowed in to my house again, He’ll show proper respect and proper behavior.
Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — July 14, 2010 @ 11:12 am
Suzanne -
That’s a very ugly thing to express. We’re talking about a fourteen year old kid. Even if it’s only hyperbole, it shows that any view outside of your own in your house should be responded to with violence.
Comment by Persimmon — July 14, 2010 @ 11:34 am
Well, I know parents who would definitely take that as encouragement for her to rebel and, uhm.. think she doesn’t need her mom’s protection? I dunno, things can come across oddly online lol
Comment by Julia — July 14, 2010 @ 11:43 am
And I could have sworn I’ve seen a Petunia post comments before… hmm, probably someone else. She still gets credit ^.^
Comment by Julia — July 14, 2010 @ 11:44 am
Persimmon
I call it boundary maintenance.
What I find ugly, is people who believe it is their duty to trespass against others boundaries and actually assault their autonomy in order to enforce an outside code of righteousness.
If someone assaults me, I will defend myself.
And to skip the hyperbole, I have never been arrested. But I have pressed charges against others. If you have a problem with that, don’t come on my property. I will not force myself upon yours.
Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — July 14, 2010 @ 12:07 pm
Petunia, humans in their natural state are judgmental. Most of us try to keep it to ourselves, but when we think we are absolutely 1000% right its hard to keep our opinions from jumping out of our mouths or off the keyboard because “its for your own good”. Your friend wouldn’t be your friend if he didn’t express his concern to you. Ask yourself if drinking coffee is something you really like to do, or if you are doing it for the shock factor.
I’d rather spend my money on books… which are also addictive, but at least you can buy them second hand. My sons love reading xovers, but I think those are addictive also. Its all in what you really think is important and how you and your Heavenly Parents feel about it.
ps your Mom is nice, I would have at first popped a cork about the coffee.
Comment by Kathy — July 14, 2010 @ 12:09 pm
ps… nope, didn’t read all of the comments. Gave up at #54! Sorry if I overposted!
Comment by Kathy — July 14, 2010 @ 12:11 pm
Persimmon, I’m hoping she is venting, not promising criminal assault on a child. That really leads to an entire new thread, about what is appropriate in disciplining another person’s child (vs what sort of peer to peer encouragement and norming is proper).
Lupita, we will have another bloggersnacker, probably later this year, to give you a chance to join in.
Alternatively, I’ll be in Salt Lake for a session of Sunstone I’m helping present on, and have offerred to take the other panel members out to dinner afterwards. If you are in that area, maybe you can join us.
I’m curious, by the way, did anyone change their opinion? I’m watching a guy give a presentation on how to determine if you have an alcohol or substance abuse problem. It brings to mind the “withdrawel” test — do you have problems if you skip “x” (alcohol, coffee, etc.) for a day?
I’ve seen a number of people with problems that they could not acknowledge, some who lost employment, could not get their children medical support they needed, and similar things.
I doubt coffee creates those problems, but I sure see it with other substances.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — July 14, 2010 @ 12:17 pm
I guess I’m going to have to be lumped in with SN cause I could not stop laughing. I am not a violent person, but I sure related to the sentiment.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 12:22 pm
Me too, G-ma! I thought SN was hilarious. she could be one my friends anytime.
When I was newly baptised, I was at church for a sewing day. It was announced by one of the women there that we could not stay in the church without “priesthood” in attendance. A gangly, pimply, smirking 12-13 year old was then produced for the protection of 20 women all well over the age of 30…LOL.
love you guys!!!
RQ
Comment by RQ — July 14, 2010 @ 12:57 pm
let me clarify something about suzanne’s comments
THAT’S HER STYLE of writing. If you’re new here, you might not know that her humor is as dry as it comes.
Comment by mfranti — July 14, 2010 @ 1:05 pm
Stephen, I want in on that lunch date.
Comment by mfranti — July 14, 2010 @ 1:08 pm
RQ..thank you. Laughing again.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 1:45 pm
I too see a lot of the “preachy” mormons or self righteous ones. My husband gets so much crap from “good mormons” for remarrying after his first wife died. People attempt to give me crap for all sorts of things. My husband’s sister is getting loads of crap for getting a divorce.
My husband and I had a huge discussion about this last night. He feels very strongly that people who are preachy/judgey like that are not following basic Christian principles. I agree. There is no way that you can be all preachy and judgmental and have the love of Christ at the same time.
As far as the coffee goes, I am not a huge fan of young women drinking caffeine irrespective of the form it comes in. I just worry if it will have a negative impact on a growing body and a woman’s reproductive system. But that is my personal opinion and not based on any perceived religious dogma.
Comment by StillConfused — July 14, 2010 @ 1:47 pm
mfranti…I think it’s just sad you have to explain a dry sense of humor. Sigh. I must ask, do they really know joy?
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 1:49 pm
Kevin Barney covered it in comment 8.
Comment by TrevorM — July 14, 2010 @ 3:07 pm
356,
I said nothing about rules, pk. You confused me with someone else. I did that a lot when posting during my benders.
I did not say you were posting under the influece. just that reading some things you say remind me of my own posts when blotto.
Comment by Pnut — July 14, 2010 @ 3:11 pm
#356
Aside from this being a pretty nasty attitude even if you were right (which I don’t believe you were), I disagree with your comment Robert on the following grounds:
1. “Nevermind” said over the internet is meant to provoke a response, so it was actually him who was asking for it. If he really meant that “never mind” to let go of the issue, he would have seen it as he was typing and then thought “nevermind, I’ll just drop it” and not posted anything. At least that’s what someone who is trying to diffuse a situation would do.
2. Being a convert doesn’t justify someone treating you like a primary student, and trying to exercise priesthood dominion over you.
Comment by Andiep — July 14, 2010 @ 3:11 pm
Whoops that was meant for 357!
Comment by Andiep — July 14, 2010 @ 3:13 pm
# 347,
It is now, to us. Maybe not so clear to the people it was given to.
Comment by Pnut — July 14, 2010 @ 3:14 pm
SN….what I referred to, when speaking about a 14 yo boy calling someone to repentance was the part of DC 121 that states that
A lot of times I think the people who hold the priesthood forget all the above and move solely onto the next verse that states
and then forget the showering of love required afterwards. If a 14 yo were in my house and he called me to repentance by persuasion and gentleness, it seems that it would be more of a question/answer period or a discussion on what he didn’t understand about my behavior. I just don’t see anything wrong with that. Teenagers call into question adult’s behavior all the time, and so long as they are not being self-righteous, rude, preachy, or any other sort of holier-than-thou attitude I don’t see the problem
However, you illustration actually fits the scripture in that you are assisting that poor teacher to enjoy the benefits of “long-suffering” for his actions. If a 14 yo came to my house and solely called me to repentance in a preachy way, let’s just say that he would probably feel 1 inch tall before he left the house.
Comment by Keith — July 14, 2010 @ 3:24 pm
Interesting and thoughtful points Petunia. I am new FMH. Can I just mention a few things in response?
First off, you sound like a very smart young woman. You also have a very good friend.
You make really good points about someone consuming lots of soda as well. Eating right should be emphasized more in our faith. Sometimes I laugh when I go to church potlucks and most of the stuff their has been saturated in cream of_____ soup or is some kind of dessert
Here is my response to your question about Coffee:
While moderate coffee consumption does have health benefits. Coffee (as well as other caffeine products) is highly addictive.
Coffee has also been shown to exacerbate mood disorders in adults and children. Studies have also shown it can increase stress, accelerate bone loss, aging, and cardiac health.
While moderate coffee consumption has been shown to have some health benefits. Those health benefits may also come through eating a well rounded diet, getting enough sleep and avoiding substances harmful to ones health or addictive.
I think coffee, tea, tobacco, illegal drugs and alcohol are often the most talked about, because they are generally the easiest to follow.
Lastly, I just wanted to say we are all trying to do our best. You will find a lot of different people in the church. Each with their own unique set of struggles and circumstances. I would be very careful when using someone else’s habit or choice to justify my own.
I hope this is an okay response:)
Comment by Crystal — July 14, 2010 @ 3:39 pm
I wonder if this would answer Petunia’s actual intended question. Members who want to use caffeine, and I am one, choose the colas because it uncomplicates the temple recommend problem. It is that simple. Is it a good idea from a health standpoint? No! Not even close and for all the reasons you mentioned to your friend. Also, I appologize for the threadjack, I need caffeine to stay focused and hadn’t had a diet DP for a while.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 3:58 pm
The threadjack I was referring to was the one about the green tea and acquired tastes. My bad.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 4:01 pm
#375 - Andiep - Great post.
And you’re absolutely right. The way the responder to petunia’s FB post phrased his initial response:
…is called “passive/aggressive.” It’s a way of saying something you know will be offensive or abrasive, while maintainging “deniability.” Instead of simply coming out and speaking his mind honestly and openly, he leaves it to his reader to “fill in the blank” and read his reproof in the “…nevermind.” It’s rude. And it’s cowardly.
I have a favorite saying: “Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Don’t say it mean.” Mr. Young Priesthood-holder could perhaps learn something from that concept.
Comment by Lorian — July 14, 2010 @ 4:01 pm
Let me see if I get this right:
A minor male who “preaches from certain scriptures and the Word of Wisdom” and then “apologizes” for getting into “Spirit mode” is a misogynist.
An adult female who vows to wrap her “fingers around his throat” and force “his head through the drywall” is a dry wit.
FMH FTW!
Comment by Peter LLC — July 14, 2010 @ 4:40 pm
#378 -
Keith, I think that’s because most folks don’t understand that “sharpness” means “with clarity”. Changes the approach a bit, eh?
Comment by ErinAnn — July 14, 2010 @ 4:45 pm
…and I’m a bit suprised that this is still being discussed.
Time for a new post!
Comment by ErinAnn — July 14, 2010 @ 4:47 pm
After over 20 years with no caffeine at all and with my metabolism slowing down a bit, I decided to try a little caffeine. I went with a white tea that has 10mg of caffeine per serving (which is about 1/10th a cup of coffee). I never considered a soda because carbonation is extremely hard on my body. I didn’t consider coffee because the caffeine content is too high and I didn’t want to have to mask the taste with sugars or fats.
As between coffee and soda, I wonder which is really worse for the body.
Comment by StillConfused — July 14, 2010 @ 4:52 pm
I am an woman, nevermind the female nonsense. If some 14 year old twerp comes into my home and presumes to tell me how to behave, regardless of what authority he may think he has been given so to do, I will also put his head through my drywall.
At 49, I don’t have to put up with kids telling me anything. If I wanted his opinion, I’d tell it to him.
Comment by fuzzy — July 14, 2010 @ 5:05 pm
Sazanne should put up a sign, warning that ‘mormon teachres that do their scriptural duty will be strangled.
Comment by Pnut — July 14, 2010 @ 5:08 pm
“As between coffee and soda, I wonder which is really worse for the body.”
Let’s call it a tie
Comment by Lupita — July 14, 2010 @ 5:27 pm
My point is, in part, that no matter who in hell thought that given authority as a “teacher” to a child who isn’t even considered old enough to drive was a good idea, it isn’t.
I will cheerfully discuss things with someone old enough to have both experience and perspective.
Comment by fuzzy — July 14, 2010 @ 5:32 pm
Do the benefits of coffee or tea really outweigh the detrimental effects of them? Can’t we find other ways to receive the same benefits? Same with soda…Yeah, they might tastesgood (though I think coffee is nasty), almost heavenly at times, but what’s the ultimate point? Enjoyment. That’s it. Enjoyment….and daggonit, we are supposed to have joy here, right? That Lehi…smart guy.
And now that my sarcasm is over, I don’t advocate the drinking of coffee or tea leaf drinks, but I don’t condemn them either. Everything has its purpose, and just because we might choose to stay away from them, doesn’t mean that they are in and of themselves an evil practice.
Comment by Keith — July 14, 2010 @ 5:37 pm
390…and everyone else advocating against teenagers and children recognizing things and mentioning things that they see as aberrations to a correct way of doing things…you’re being silly. That is what children do: they question things that don’t make sense or that seem out of whack. Now the self-righteous denunciation of behavior is what would cause me to kick the little sucker’s can out the door. But even 14 year olds care about older people…just as a six year old will ask why their parent is using swear words when they have been taught that they shouldn’t swear. I do not way that Teachers should walk around as preachers calling people to repentance for all their faults, but they need to be trained how to recognize sin and how to confront it. It is just too bad that the church leaders don’t teach them better methods of confrontation. I hate how the church leadership leave the YM to themselves to try and figure out their own callings. Same with the MP.
Comment by Keith — July 14, 2010 @ 5:43 pm
#36, RAH, excellent point about group identity and social cohesion. I especially related to your point,
Although I certainly value the social cohesion that is found in the church, I also struggle against it–it seems as if the areas where I diverge from the mainstream of the church cause me to feel a bit defensive and then interpret the strong sense of group identity/social cohesion with social control and social monitoring. Some of my interpretations are projections, some are based on experience, but a lot of my inner struggles seem to stem from the fact that I consider myself the “other” in a faith group that is so remarkably united.
Comment by Felicity — July 14, 2010 @ 5:54 pm
mfranti — if too many people join in I’m not paying for everyone’s dinner. Otherwise, I’m only at Sunstone to be part of the panel, take the other panel members (and my daughter) out to dinner after wards and then fly back home the next day. If you attend that session, you are probably welcome to join everyone.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — July 14, 2010 @ 6:30 pm
Stephen, I wasn’t expecting no free lunch.
Peter, I don’t recall you ever being so cranky ’round here.
suzanne was not being serious. i don’t know how else to say it. she was being her usual self and using hyperbole and sarcasm to make a point. not a big deal.
i’m sorry.
Comment by mfranti — July 14, 2010 @ 6:54 pm
@Keith/392 - completely agree with the sentiment in your last sentence. One of my biggest peeves as I have a teenage son. The flip side is that if you don’t like it as a parent, being more involved is the quickest way to change it.
Regarding Suzanne’s humor…sorry, don’t get it. Teh funney is missing. If you have to know someone to “get them” and know their violent humor is only a joke…eh. The same joke made with a woman’s head through the drywall by her offended husband wouldn’t be very funny, no matter who made it.
Comment by Persimmon — July 14, 2010 @ 8:42 pm
Persimmon,
when you put it that way, i can see what you mean.
Comment by mfranti — July 14, 2010 @ 8:47 pm
I think it also has to do with the fact of not understanding where some of the ‘rules’ came from. If people truly understood how the word of wisdom came about, maybe they wouldn’t be so harsh to judge how others interpret it? It’s all about how strong a belief is ingrained, and if the belief ingrained is that we are damned if we drink coffee, and you are a friend, then it might be a duty to talk to you about it…can get annoying, but I just shrug it off mostly because I think about where they’re thoughts might be…
Comment by INeedACanoe — July 14, 2010 @ 8:49 pm
I believe the fault is mine. Perhaps, when I said: I think it’s just sad you have to explain a dry sense of humor. Sigh. I must ask, do they really know joy? I pushed the line of good taste over all the way past dry to snarky and rude, so accept my apologies. I do think it was funny, but I have been accursed of a bit of a dry wit of my own on occasion. I know very well there are those who do not share my tastes.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 9:08 pm
Holy Cow! 399 comments on your first post! Lets make it an even 400!
Comment by wistfulblue — July 14, 2010 @ 9:10 pm
Wistfulblue needs a prize…..
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 9:12 pm
INeedACanoe….she could have, but then we wouldn’t have had this great dialogue.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 9:14 pm
Are they true and living prophets speaking the will of God who say not to drink coffee? Nobody on this earth, nor anybody on this blog can answer that question. Only God.
Comment by Josh — July 14, 2010 @ 9:19 pm
I personally choose to believe that a being who would create such a wondrous thing as coffee and then tell me not to touch is far too mean to be worshipped……
Comment by fuzzy — July 14, 2010 @ 9:23 pm
fuzzy…funny, and you have a point, or he has one dry sense of humor.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 9:30 pm
Comment by Keith — July 14, 2010 @ 9:31 pm
To those of you offended by Suzanne’s humor in her comment about putting an obnoxious kid’s head through dry wall, please, do not ever, ever, ever hang out near a junior high school. Your offense-o-meters will overheat and send you into a coma within the first half an hour.
Now, one of the first things I do with my new students each year is teach them how to correct or challenge an adult politely. They learn that, “Excuse me, are you sure you didn’t leave something out when you wrote that on the board?” is much more likely to get a positive response than, “Yo! Teacher, you screwed up!” Thus, although I am fairly careful to practice what I preach with my students, if a kid politely questioned apparent inconsistencies, then s/he would be likely to get a thoughtful response/explanation from me. However, if some self-righteous boy “called me to repentance,” he would find himself called to his senses immediately by a severe tongue-lashing that would (I hope) cause severe and immediate bleeding to his pompous and overblown sense of self-importance.
There now. Let’s see who is offended by mere metaphorical violence.
Comment by A Paperback Writer — July 14, 2010 @ 9:31 pm
I don’t care what kind of sense of humor you have, that’s funny.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 9:36 pm
Keith…you are so cool!
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 9:37 pm
An aside here, coffee stains your teeth. See how nice and white they are now and what an attractive smile you have? It will turn your teeth tan and then you’ll have to spend $400 at the dentist
annually or biannually to get them whitened.
Comment by msg — July 14, 2010 @ 9:44 pm
P.S. Try Pero instead. I love it.
Comment by msg — July 14, 2010 @ 9:48 pm
Pero is good. But I need the pick-me-up of caffiene. That is my big problem. I like Stillconfused white tea choice. Not enough caffiene to get addicted, but some focus and insulin help.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 9:54 pm
For some people, the further AWAY from Mormon Corridor, the more it may seem like they follow church teachings/counsel/standards because they WANT to use their agency in obedience. Being surrounded by non-members and choosing to set themselves apart as DIFFERENT by doing things like being modest or living the word of wisdom….feels like a choice they are making even though it might feel a little like a sacrifice, it is something they feel proud of. They may feel like others are pressuring them to GIVE UP their gospel standards, and follow theirs, which may be more liberal, or even freeing. As these persons persist in living gospel standards , and NOT “following the crowd”, it can make them feel more strong and good and more powerful. They may enjoy standing out as different, and feel they have strong individuality.
The same person, perhaps, living IN the Corridor, ( or even in a large LDS family ) may feel like following church teachings/counsel/standards is “following the crowd”, bowing to pressure, and living in a bubble, being like everyone else….it can feel more and more like …they don’t do it by choice , but by force, somehow, as they feel everyone ( other followers) EXPECTS it of them, and will look down on them, if they don’t. They may feel like others are pressuring them to live UP to THEIR ( church or family or community) standards, and follow them. For some persons, who choose certain gospel principles or standards NOT to follow, therefore, again, NOT following the crowd, they feel , perhaps more strong and more powerful, and enjoy feeling that difference. That individuality.
For some people , NOT giving in to peer pressure, whether it be it positive or negative, is something that makes them feel more strong in themselves.
For some, setting themselves apart from others by “being good”, feels good. In a situation, where the same behavior “being good” now makes them blend into the crowd of others ‘being good’ , doesn’t feel that great, or even feels bad. They may feel they are sort of bland and disappearing.
In the first case, the person using their agency to NOT follow the crowd feels enjoyment, or joy, and in the second, using their agency TO follow the crowd is NOT enjoyable.
There is a fine line, and I think it has to do with ego and pride, on some level. The only way I know to rise above ego, is to forget about the crowd, and determine that it is between an individual and God, only, and it is Him only who is to be followed. It is to Him I want to give my will . For me, since I have a testimony of the restoration, of the prophet, and the importance of following my local leaders….then prayerfully following them, or scriptures is following God, and coming closer to Christ. Then I am independent of thinking of myself in relation to the crowd. I think it can be a struggle. I enjoy standing out as an individual. I guess we have to realize that God only sees us as individual and we individually make and keep our covenants, and we individually are judged by Him.
If people bug me…what they do that bugs me MIGHT be their problem, but how I perceive it all and react to MIGHT be MY problem.
I remember a song called “I’m IN with the OUT crowd”. Some people like it that way, I guess. I think I sort of do, too.
As far as people being preachy or judgmental…that is ALL of us. Just look at these posts. We can be the preachy people or we can be the people judging the preachy people. Or we can be the people judging the people who are judging the preachy people. It is all beams and motes, motes and beams. Just my observations, over time. We could have either one, and be unaware of it.
Joseph Smith was 14. Alot of the folks around didn’t want to hear what he had to say. But he had some good things to say.
I had some time on my hands. I have been dealing with some heavy issues where people used their agency, and are now in some sad ‘confining’ circumstances…and I am decompressing. Spending a few days in the courtroom always gives me new ideas on agency.
Comment by Melissa P. — July 14, 2010 @ 9:55 pm
And it’s just wise to stay away from anything addicting.
Comment by msg — July 14, 2010 @ 9:59 pm
But not because I think it is sinful, just to be clear. I am not making a judgment on others, I am addicted to diet cola right now and I do not think I am sinning.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 11:07 pm
Oh, crap, I posted again. Now, there is my worst addiction. I may have to go cold turkey.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 11:09 pm
IdahoG-ma, when you find a cure for FMH addiction, let me know. I have been battling it for years.
Comment by Stephanie — July 14, 2010 @ 11:30 pm
We could start our own online AA type meeting, but we would have to blog to communicate. I think we are out of luck.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 14, 2010 @ 11:35 pm
LOL
Comment by Stephanie — July 14, 2010 @ 11:41 pm
Great comment, Melissa P.
Comment by jks — July 14, 2010 @ 11:46 pm
Petunia - Your original question was “why are some members so preachy?” And you’ve gotten a lot of answers that have nothing to do with your question and a whole lot of discussion about the Word of Wisdom.
#1. I want to apologize for not answering your question the first time I posted on this thread. I got sidetracked into WOW talk.
#2. I think the answer to your question is that some members of the church are busy bodies and conformists. Sometimes conformists have narrow points of view because of their limited exposure to life’s experiences and/or sheltered lifestyle.
It sounds like you are not a conformist and you do what you feel is right rather than simply conforming just to keep the peace. I like that about you. Keep up the good work.
Comment by Emily A. — July 14, 2010 @ 11:59 pm
#418 - Don’t stop blogging because of addiction to FMH. This is the healthiest I’ve been in years since I started reading FMH a couple weeks ago. You guys have helped me through one of the most difficult testimony struggles I’ve had in years.
LOL! An AA meeting? Why don’t we just call it “Relief Society Online” and IM each other?
Comment by Emily A. — July 15, 2010 @ 12:02 am
I have no idea why people find me a violent person. I remember the last hometeachers I ever had, and their look of horror as they fled my home.
Perhaps it was because I set boundaries.
I also want to say that the depiction of violence is not the same as the advocation of violence. I personally do not approve of physical abuse or emotional abuse.
Not respecting a person and their right to make decisions regarding their life can lead to emotional abuse.
Geez, what’s next? We gonna start going on about how many earrings a person has?
Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — July 15, 2010 @ 12:04 am
hahaha….SN, I would love to be your home teacher. I might actually enjoy doing home teaching if that were the case. Plus, if I had a son (which I most likely never will) or if I had a young man companion it would be a wonderful and worthwhile experience…I think.
Comment by Keith — July 15, 2010 @ 12:17 am
Suzanne- Don’t be silly. Nobody on this blog wears more than one pair of earrings…RIGHT?!
Comment by KS — July 15, 2010 @ 12:31 am
I think that what Peter said is a better fit for “dry wit.”
Comment by Christian — July 15, 2010 @ 1:00 am
i just absolutely love the way this has all turned out, i cannot remember who said this, forgive me, but i must also say i have come to be ” bemused” post-post. is that too redundant? i suppose that was actually really stupid of me to say, and i promise no pun intended but, it seemed to work well. anyway, im very amused and bemsued, this is all so entertaining, and i can see much more clearly now why my mother laughs aloud so often.
. . . i suppose i just threadjacked my own post, oh well, haha.
Comment by petunia — July 15, 2010 @ 1:01 am
Wow. That’s way more comments than my add will allow. I just wanted to plug my favorite coffee substitute that keeps me and my brother temple worthy. It’s an Italian product called cafe orzo. It’s a roasted barley beverage that is brewed just like coffee. I use a French press to brew it espresso strength and make lattes and cappuccinos. It has a much deeper flavor than postum or pero. You can order it from two leaves and and a bud online. Highly recommended. For those who need a little caffeine, my wife drinks yerba mate, which has a very mild level of a caffeine like substance. It gives her a little lift, but she can quit after daily use with no withdrawal symptoms. Plus it has not been wow prohibited, or we’d lose all the members in Argentina, Uruguay, and Paraguay.
Comment by brian — July 15, 2010 @ 1:30 am
Lorian: You’re a gem.
I seem to be allergic to that. But, a non-LDS coworker got intestinal problems when drinks coffee, so, the coffee pot was off at night at that work place.
And, for those of you who know Bridget Jack Jeffries, she had a surprise from her daughter on this subject:
http://www.clobberblog.com/?p=3830
Comment by Mike H. — July 15, 2010 @ 3:07 am
Love starting the day with laughs. I’ve missed Ms. Jacks comments.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 15, 2010 @ 9:08 am
Blain…thanks, I actually have tried yerba mate, it has other benefits, too. Your coffee substitute sounds good, bet my Hubs would love it.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 15, 2010 @ 9:27 am
404 - God also created wonderful cliffs. Does that mean we should jump off of them?
Comment by Josh — July 15, 2010 @ 9:43 am
Josh, was that your attempt at dry wit, or were you serious?
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 15, 2010 @ 9:52 am
My quota for comments is up. I leave to live real life.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 15, 2010 @ 9:53 am
My mom does the yerba mate thing, and she’s as strict and conservative as they come. (She is firmly against caffinated soda.) I think she justifies it because she served a mission in Argentina and so she sees it as a harmless cultural thing that she picked up.
It makes me laugh.
Comment by AllieKay — July 15, 2010 @ 10:04 am
”
Oh my hilarious. I needed that this morning.
As to the Coffee-non-coffee thing… I’ll admit that I feel a bit threatened by the idea of a member cooly sipping coffee, because it challenges my orthodox mormon beliefs. Coke, etc, has been placed firmly into that “gray area” you describe but for some reason, Coffees and teas have been relegated to orthodox mormon dont’s.
Don’t ask me why.
And I agree that there are so many things that are orthodox mormon dont’s (judging others, lying, gossipping etc) that are not followed. I think people cling to things like “no coffee” because it’s a visual, easy reminder that “we’re following the rules.” It’s a don’t that’s easier to follow than the ones i just listed, for instance.
Have you ever read “the slave”, by Issak Singer? Great story. One of the points Singer makes with this story is that the Orthodox Jewish people he was describing only follow “half the torah.” They explicitly follow all the little physical and lifestyle rules–like, don’t marry a Christian, don’t walk more than a certain distance on sunday, don’t eat certain foods. But they forget the other half about loving your neighbor. It’s a very powerful story, you should go read it if you haven’t already.
This is a problem that plagues every religion, I’d say.
Not just Mormonism.
Comment by sare — July 15, 2010 @ 10:18 am
Josh
As to jumping off cliffs, you should meet some BASE jumpers.
And there’s absolutely no way, I’m joining them.
Although I use to do a bit of rock climbing. Cliffs are fun.
Comment by Suzanne Neilsen — July 15, 2010 @ 10:19 am
sIare…I would comment and tell you how much I liked your comment, but I can’t because of my quota.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 15, 2010 @ 10:21 am
Oh, no I can’t even apology for mangling you name.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 15, 2010 @ 10:24 am
Out of curiosity, is there any evidence at all that drinking something hot (as in coffee hot or tea hot) does our body any good? OTOH there’s still the common consent thing to get around. And coffee and tea rally do fit the conspiring men issue in section 89.
Comment by Christian — July 15, 2010 @ 10:25 am
Comment by sare — July 15, 2010 @ 10:50 am
I am active LDS and drink the occasional coffee. I believe in the spirit of the WOW, not the letter. Because are you telling me that my occasional coffee (BTW, I work out and eat healthy), is any worse than the gallons and gallons of Diet Coke that members drink? And don’t even get me started on the obesity epidimic in our church. How are the Diet Coke drinkers or the morbidly obese keeping the WOW any more than I am??? Doesn’t make any sense to me. Also - I really don’t think that HF looks down at us and says - well, they were a good person, served others, paid their tithing, and tried their best, but drank a little coffee - sorry - you’re not getting in! I don’t think he is like that. Just my two cents. BTW, Petunia, what a mature, free thinking young lady you are.
Comment by Emmie — July 15, 2010 @ 10:55 am
I think what shocks most LDSaints into chastising fellows members is that not drinking coffee is so easy. If you didn’t grow up drinking it, why start? Because you like the taste? Because it’s edgy? I agree that drinking coffee is a little sin, but not only does it keep you out of the temple, but it’s so easy to obey.
Comment by Nicole — July 15, 2010 @ 12:11 pm
Mfranti,just wanted to say that I get why we have to go easy on our kids sometimes.Parenting is a long game.
Darling Petunia,all I can say is it’s a small price to pay,and an easy habit not to get.You will need all the freedom from habit you can get in your long and fruitful life.
Bon voyage.
Comment by wayfarer — July 15, 2010 @ 12:40 pm
I hope this doesn’t offend but I always find the spirit of the law discussion interesting when brought up. I sometimes wonder what that actually means..isn’t the spirit of the law the true jest or meaning of the law? Wouldn’t following the spirit of the law mean that following it as it is written and then following the true meaning of the law (even things that are unwritten but common sense?)
What I am getting at is…isn’t the spirit of the law stricter than what is written most time? Doesn’t it require a greater commitment of discipleship? Kind of like when the Jews thought that by not committing adultery was being obedient…that was the letter of the law, but Jesus taught that if you really wanted to follow the law..you needed to not even fantasize or lust. A lot of people walked away from that thinking it was too hard…but in reality wasn’t he teaching the real meaning or “the spirit” of the law???
Would the spirit of the law when referring to the WoW…be not only would someone refrain from what is written but refrain from thing knowingly harmful to their bodies that isn’t spelled out??? Just a thought..I am in no way perfect at following the WoW to a T, but I am finding the conversation interesting.
Comment by Crystal — July 15, 2010 @ 12:45 pm
445 - good comment. As an example of what you are saying, I don’t know how someone can break law of adultery, but still keep the spirit of it.
Paul is the first who mentioned the spirit and the letter, but he didn’t mean they could be divided. It just meant that there are always two things, spiritual and physical. There is the body and then there is the spirit. A person can’t break a law physically without also breaking it spiritually. That is impossible. Unless a person can find a way to divide their spirit from their body.
But, a person can break the law spiritually without breaking it physically. That means a person may not drink coffee, but they lust after it in their heart.
Comment by Josh — July 15, 2010 @ 5:12 pm
Oh no. I am a hot drink adulterer!
Comment by brian — July 15, 2010 @ 6:22 pm
447 - That was an example an the letter and the spirit. Don’t flatter yourself in to thinking you were being condemned.
Comment by Josh — July 15, 2010 @ 8:19 pm
Brian…please note, I got your name right. Brian…I thought you were funny.
Comment by IdahoG-ma — July 15, 2010 @ 8:35 pm
thankyou #420- jks…I think that means at least one person was willing to hang on through and with my kind-of-confusing post!
Comment by Melissa P. — July 15, 2010 @ 9:57 pm
I think the best thing written on this post was written by Melissa P. Here is what she wrote:
“As far as people being preachy or judgmental…that is ALL of us. Just look at these posts. We can be the preachy people or we can be the people judging the preachy people. Or we can be the people judging the people who are judging the preachy people. It is all beams and motes, motes and beams. Just my observations, over time. We could have either one, and be unaware of it. ”
I would say Amen to that. We are ALL sinners. We have ALL come short of the glory of God. We can’t go around hating judgmental people because in that we become a judgmental person.
Maybe we should not get so wound up when someone judges us, maybe we should stop pretending it can be stopped and maybe we should accept each other as human and forgive it. Christ was surrounded by judgmental people, but never once complained. He went on. Maybe we should all press on with a faith in God that things will work out.
Comment by Josh — July 15, 2010 @ 10:43 pm
Nicely said, Josh. Here’s another hymn by Eliza R. Snow — one of my favorites, and on the theme:
Text: Eliza R. Snow, 1807–1887
Comment by Christian — July 15, 2010 @ 11:04 pm
Well, Petunia, I would say not too shabby, with 453 comments on your first post! Really, though, I am just happy that your first reaction was a questioning one, and that you had the confidence to do so. It is encouraging to us “older” chicks that younger women trust their own judgment. It makes me feel so much better about the world, and especially for the young women coming up in it. It also says a lot about how you have been brought up, and good on your mama for encouraging you to do so. I say keep on keeping on. Your friend will be a better person for having been presented a different perspective…and hopefully your friendship will just grow stronger. This is my desire for young folks. I believe you all have the potential for being “less preachy” because your depth of understanding is so much more informed than mine was at your age. It is fantastic!
Comment by Soul Sister — July 16, 2010 @ 2:26 am
Interesting threads move all too quickly for this old girl. That’ll teach me to stop by so infequently!
Having read through the first 50 posts, let me add kudos to petunia, to her mother, for gifting importance to ‘being gently comfortable in one’s own skin’ with choices, with voices.
Brava.
Comment by Debbie Too — July 17, 2010 @ 1:36 am
I always thought the coffee and tea rule was because of tannic acid, not caffeine. And that herbal tea isn’t tea because it doesn’t come from the tea plant (which black, white, and green tea does).
Comment by Elizabeth — July 18, 2010 @ 11:20 pm
Oh, and I did know one Bishop who allowed a woman to have a temple recommend though she drank a cup of coffee each day. Her doctor had recommended it for (?) and she was much sicker when she didn’t drink it. It helps that she was his mother so he understood her situation. My mother drank green tea for menopause but this was still when the definition of tea was even more unclear than it is now. It’s actually illegal to call herbal tea “tea” in some places because it’s not from the tea plant- something random I picked up in biology class. It’s an “infusion.” We have a bad habit in the U.S. of calling it herbal “tea.” Same for red tea which isn’t tea, either.
My doctor is experimenting (!) to find a prescription regimen that controls my sleep disorder (I can only sleep every other night at best… and then sleep for a day straight). Coffee is on the list of recommendations (for alertness on the 2nd and 3rd days without sleep) but I’d rather not try it. Instead, I get a limited amount of caffeine from other sources. Right now it’s a small Diet Coke (which I despise) until I find something that works better. (NoDoz = vomit). I consider it part of my prescription, though, and don’t drink it for fun… because caffeine IS a drug. What has helped is that I don’t buy caffeinated soda that I enjoy… which would be Dr. Pepper. Because if I enjoyed my morning caffeine- I would forget how dangerous it can be- and that it’s only to be used for medicinal purposes.
Someone mentioned red meat and only eating meat in times of cold and famine. I adhered to this practice before I was married and ate vegetarian 99% of the time- the 1% being when I was a guest. Now that I’m married to a carnivore, I substitute for meat whenever possible… and when I DO buy meat (very very rarely)- it’s poultry or fish- and always cage free/wild caught. My husband knows he has to go out for red meat because it’s not coming into our kitchen, as per our compromise. I guess I eat meat MAYBE a few times a month- if that. Being married makes it more difficult because I’m cooking for two. I’d like to go back to being a D&C Vegetarian as soon as possible- it’ll be a lot easier when we’re not in school and can afford eggplant and tempeh on a regular basis… or if I had a garden plot. *sigh*
Points being:
1. As far as I know- you can SOMETIMES get a medical pass for coffee.
2. I hate my morning caffeine.
3. There are some Mormons who do ascribe to D&C vegetarianism on varying levels.
Comment by Elizabeth — July 19, 2010 @ 12:14 am
Ok. This is how I feel about this. Petunia is just being a normal 16 year old, easily offended and her Mom is being a typical Mom of a normal 16 year old jumping to her defense.
I feel sorry for that boy. He’s 16 for heaven’s sake but some people here have managed to turn him into a woman hating priesthood preacher. Please don’t give feminism a bad name by being an embarrassment .
I don’t feel the boy was preaching. I think he was being nice. Is he still your friend? If so, that tells you that he couldn’t care less if you drink coffee or not. If he’s not, well maybe it’s because someone told him how his reputation has been ravished.
Drop the whole “the kid was pulling the priesthood card” nonsense. What would you say if one of Petunia’s girlfriends had responded the same way?
If he were my son, I would be warning him to be VERY CAREFUL what he said around Petunia and her Mom. Such hard work trying to have a convo where he won’t be judged.
I gather Petunia is a convert. Perhaps he wondered if she was aware of coffee as part of the WoW.
I hate preachers too but we all do it. No one has ever died from being preached at, as far as I know. In this case though I would call this a discussion, not a preaching session.
Comment by non american — July 19, 2010 @ 8:46 am
FWIW: Kids & coffee at NBC Today:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/38306333#38306333
Comment by Mike H. — July 19, 2010 @ 1:52 pm
Hi Petunia-
Recently we had some individuals go through our neighborhood and post signs that said “Smoking is a dead road” or ” You die from smoking!”. One of their lovely signs was posted on our property and our children ran up to read it and promptly ripped it down. We don’t smoke, but I found the poster highly judgmental to those that do.
Christ taught through love and example. I think active members as well as inactive or non-active members are all guilty of judging each other. Whether it’s your drink of choice or the way you choose to vote. What really matters is how we treat one another. You are amazing, and we hope you are enjoying your summer!!!
Comment by Desirae — July 20, 2010 @ 10:21 am
If I were obeying all of the other commandments 100% and drank coffee, would God keep me out of heaven? Seems to me a silly hypo. I think I would find that I had too much pride to throw away that one sin (pride, not coffee), not to be too redundant. It’s not the coffee, it’s the refusal to submit one’s will. If I had so much pride that I was unwilling to give away that one sin, the odds are that coffee isn’t my only problem.
Comment by It's Not Me — July 20, 2010 @ 11:40 pm