Sex Talk
No, not that kind.
I recently had a conversation with a friend where she observed that a lot of LDS are over-squeamish about talking about sex–what works, what doesn’t, and, especially, getting tips. My experience has been that we’re generally okay with referring to it, nudge-nudging and wink-winking each other, and oh wasn’t dear husband or wife unusally frisky the other night, but as far as getting actual advice? Nope. Much too personal and dangerously close to pornography. Hmmm….
The conversation was actually prompted by my recounting highlights of a recent conversation with another friend who is in her first year of marriage and is having some struggles. She came over one night and we talked over some things, woman to woman, and during the course of the conversation, I said something like “Sex isn’t everything. Sex is fun, but….” At which point she jumped in and said, “well, actually, it isn’t for me.” To date, she has never really enjoyed sex, nor been satisfied (ahem) by the experience. (See, I can euphemize as well as anyone else.) She was actually quite relieved when I told her that a lot of women have trouble climaxing–she’d been thinking she was some freak of nature–and I told her, relatively explicitly, some things that work for me, oral techniques being foremost. I also told her some of the magazines actually have some pretty good advice and don’t usually have the embarrassment of TMI photos (as opposed to some of the books out there–yikes!), but she was very hesitant to even pick up those magazines, let alone read the sex advice, because she thought it was pornography. Well, maybe that’s the difference between her and me.
Or maybe it’s not. I mean, my squeamishness with sex pictures is due to my conditioning to avoid porn and I still feel better about things when I avoid the images. Maybe for her, the mental images are just as taboo. But that’s where things change for me. I mean, is checking out my naked husband porn? I don’t think so. Because if all the mental images I have are of us, that’s no different than seeing each other in real life. Besides, we’re not drooling over air-brushed and provocative Other People. And reading little tidbits here and there have given us some great ideas that have brought both of us more pleasure and fun. Why would this be bad?
I went to a youth fireside once when I was 15ish where the speaker contrasted some visual parables for us about sex. First, he compared sex to an orange with the word “Bad” stamped on it like the Sunkist oranges are stamped. We see it, we want it, but it’s Baaad. No touchy. Then it goes on a conveyor belt through some mysterious little “Marriage” tunnel and when it comes out the other side, the label now says “Good.” What the heck happened in the tunnel? Is there some little Oompa Loompa rubbing off the “Bad” and stamping on the “Good”? Then he said that, despite the (sometimes unconcious) cultural conditioning we get in church culture, that was the wrong conception of both sex and marriage. Rather, the oranges start off being stamped “Good” and we’re told we’re not supposed to eat them until we’re married. Then we can enjoy it.
Really, I think this message is getting better conveyed from the pulpits of youth firesides, etc. (though I always hated the BYU-ward chastity sacrament meetings–but that’s a post for another day), but it seems to me that we still cling to this ’sex must happen and be encouraged in euphemistic terms, but we mustn’t talk about it really, nor should we find information beyond our own experience to enhance our sex skills.’
Personally, I like it that my husband and I have skills and that we improve them. It’s so much fun! And sex is about more than multiplying and replenishing the Earth, it’s about building closeness and, yes, having fun. And wouldn’t it help to be able to talk about it and learn new interesting sex things, new skills that help us have that fun? I think so.
Let’s talk about sex.
p.s.
Chocolate Body Frosting, Kama Sutra Honey Dust, Sensua Organics, & Cosmo’s The Kind of Foreplay He Craves
I’m sitting here with my wife, laughing and grinning as we read this.
It took us a few years of practice to develop a good skill set for each other. And we’ve known of Mormon women who never have orgasms. It’s pretty sad. Or the ones who have sex once a month - yikes. That would not be sustainable. (We counted once for a period of several months, and we’re a five-times-a-week couple.)
The biggest single thing is to be comfortable talking with each other. Becoming open. Seeing sex as something that is not threatening or embarrassing. It takes a few years to undo the Mormon conditioning. If you’re not comfortable, if the trust and respect are not there, then nothing will work. And remember, it’s not about skill per se, it’s about skill with each other.
Fun things to do. Hmm, how detailed do you want this, Artemis? I’ll go for greater detail (not in pornographic level); you can clean up as needed, I guess.
Well, first is our little friend the vibrator. Yep, that made a big difference in our sex life. A huge difference. She can be as assured of getting an orgasm as I am. Even if I’m tired or whatever else. And I’ve gotten pretty good at using it, through the usual give and take. Do you like this? Yes? Okay, mental note. Do you like that? Not really? Okay, mental note. And so on.
Get the multiple-speed kind. A moving penis-thingy is optional - we don’t use it so much - but the clit part does very well with multiple speeds. (Her note: The penis part is also great for menstrual cramps - massage those right on out!)
Second, we have a few movies we enjoy watching together, and they always get paused in the middle for a while. They’re not porn, but they’re somewhat steamy, in a way that we both enjoy. Also, they create greate anticipation. If we’re having a movie night and watching Hugh Grant in Sirens, we both know we’re going to be getting some action.
Third, the bed isn’t the only place to have sex. Pretty much every room in the house will do. Or outdoors, at the right time and place. (Be careful!). And definitely in the shower.
Fourth, birth control. It took us a while to find what worked for us. We started out with the pill, which she didn’t like. (Direct quote from her: “It made me a bitch.”) I didn’t like condoms much; they pinched uncomfortably. My advice, go to the store and spend the money and buy several varieties of condoms. They don’t all pinch. It’s about finding the right fit for you.
Fifth, anal sex. Some people go there; some don’t. We’re in favor. It requires a lot of care, and a good deal of lubrication. Start out slowly. Go into the shower, get wet in all the right places, and use conditioner. And be ready to stop if she doesn’t like it, which she might. On the other hand, she may love it.
And make sure to totally clean off before having vaginal sex; she can get a bad infection otherwise.
I’m sure that’s more than enough for one comment. I’ll let others talk now.
–Anonymous Husband and Wife team, married a fair number of years.
Comment by Anonymous Husband and Wife — February 12, 2006 @ 8:44 pm
Hey Steve EM…
Comment by Rusty Clifton — February 12, 2006 @ 9:00 pm
Ahh, what’s kinky for one is not kinky for another. Frankly, some of the things posted by that fabulous couple above wouldn’t do it for me (i.e. ANAL). But it works for them and that’s great.
I have a very close friend who HATES sex. HATES it. Add to that years of infertility and her hatred grew. After long talks with her it’s getting better, but I still wince when I think about how much she disliked it.
I love it. Well, hey, not every sex life is perfect and some days are better than others, but dh and I are pretty darn satisfied with all aspects. My climactic peak is at about 98%. Not bad!
I love what was mentioned about sex bringing a married couple close together.
I distinctly remember, on my wedding night, laying next to my husband (after about the 3rd time), remembering that we had read a fabulous “sex book” (The Act of Marriage –skip the last chapter.. ) which greatly attributed to our success and thinking: “If every Laurel in the world knew and understood how I feel right now they would never do anything –ANYTHING– to destroy their chances for a Temple wedding and being here where I am right now.” I couldn’t believe how wonderful it felt to be lying next to my amazing dh and knowing that we would be together not only for the next day, but forever.
I agree. Sex is good and the youth need to know WHY they are saving it for marriage. Not why they can’t do it now….
Comment by cheryl — February 12, 2006 @ 9:19 pm
I struggle so much with this! The whole “is-this-okay-or-is-it-porn” thing. We got a photographic how-to book as a gag gift when we got engaged and I don’t know what to do with the thing. It probably cost a far bit and is in good shape, but I’m embarrassed to be the one donating it to the used-book store. And I don’t want to risk the kids coming across it because it’s obviously very explicit. But the truth is we have learned things from it.
We’ve also learned very useful things from TV (Sex, Toys, and Chocolate, I think it’s called?) although presented in a less than Christian-way. We don’t have cable anymore. But it’s so hard to get helpful information in real life. Religious types don’t discuss it personally. And it’s not really something to talk about with a Doctor or Bishop. So where are us eager but unsure people to get this stuff from?
I know most LDS people assume that toys, other stuff available from sex-shops, etc. are not allowed. It’s regrettable the places one has to buy this stuff from are such sleaze-pits! Lots of people in LDS circles think anything beyond missionary-position is wicked. So what is the answer? I absolutely don’t know, but I have real-life Mormon friends with kids who have never had orgasms, and that’s a rip-off!
Kerri
Comment by Kerri — February 12, 2006 @ 9:24 pm
I disliked sex as a newlywed and eventually I figured out why–I was deathly afraid of getting pregnant. I married at age 20 and was not ready to be a mother. I was on the pill, but I found it hard to trust that I wouldn’t get pregnant. At age 25, when we actively tried to get pregnant, all of a sudden sex was fun for me. Problem solved. It’s even more solved now that I’ve had my children and my husband has had a vasectomy. Now we screw like bunnies.
Another thing I find enjoyable is The Quickie. Sure, the woman probably will not have an orgasm, but when you’re tired at night but still want to be intimate, a quickie cannot be beat. And honestly, an orgasm isn’t everything. I’ve had very satisfying sex many times without orgasm (not to say it isn’t important).
Comment by Wendy — February 12, 2006 @ 9:25 pm
Well, we’re rather fond of the Doggie.
A good book about not getting (or getting) pregnant without bitchy pills and that has some explanations and advice about physical pleasure is Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler.
Comment by Artemis — February 12, 2006 @ 9:35 pm
I had this same question, and found a few good resources. The first is a book called And They Were Not Ashamed. It’s written by an LDS woman who’s qualifications are listed here.
I also found another website called The Marriage Bed. It is run by Evangelical Christians, and has many links to places to buy lingerie etc without having to wade through smut. Their discussion forums are rather interesting too. I’ll warn those who may want to participate in their forums that many people there are not exactly friendly with Mormons. Other than that, I’ve found it to be frank, forthright, yet not offensive or pornographic.
As a side note of something to be horrified about, there was an older lady in my ward who mentioned in a discussion of BC that she and her husband simply didn’t if they weren’t trying to have kids.
Comment by Starfoxy — February 12, 2006 @ 9:57 pm
There are some good catalog sources for toys that are far less sleazy than your average adult bookstore. Right off the top, try “The Good Vibrations Catalog”- it is geared towards women, and whatever you order comes discreetly packaged and unmarked in the mail.
As a convert, this really wasn’t a huge issue for my DH and I, as we both had previous experience- not saying that was advisable, but it’s a fact. However, based on talking to friends that are lifetime members, I have wondered how kind it is to keep two chaste people completely in the dark until their wedding night. Sex can be quite shocking and even painful if you are unprepared or not sure what to expect. The idea of letting the youth in a little more on what actually transpires- ie: stamping the orange GOOD, but OFF LIMITS, would probably be healthier than making BAD.
There is also a culture of discomfort with talking about sex- many of my adult women friends are embarassed and obviously morified at frank talk about bodies; thus how can they teach their daughters about their bodies and how they work with any authority? This is a good discussion, and one that need to happen, IMHO.
Comment by tracy m — February 12, 2006 @ 10:19 pm
A former Relief Society president I know recently started throwing Passion Parties. I am DYING to go to one, but she lives in another state!
Comment by mom on a wire — February 12, 2006 @ 10:27 pm
I’ve bought the “kama sutra” edition of Cosmo twice in my life (I think it’s the September issue anually??). Very helpful, but even though I’m a grown up with kids of my own, I hide those Cosmos — really HIDE ‘em, when my mom comes over (not like they’re out on the kitchen table or anything to begin with but…).
That’s how shy i am about this subject, and how much I wish we could talk openly about this stuff, but even on-line, I’m afraid to get too graphic, lest it go off into some TMI territory. With that in mind, sucking dh’s fingers while doing it is pleasurable for both of us. I could go on, there’s so much more I want to say, but well, um. Nevermind.
Comment by meems — February 12, 2006 @ 10:59 pm
BTW, my mom’s only advice to me (regarding sex) before I was married was when she cryptically told me in a stern way, “Some people think that just because they’re married, *anything’s* okay. Well it isn’t! :::end conversation:::
Comment by meems — February 12, 2006 @ 11:05 pm
Oh, meems, please, please ask! Do it anonymously if you need to, but ASK!
And “advice” like your mom’s is exactly what I was talking about in my comment! Break the cycle, to steal a phrase from any anti-abuse movement!
Comment by tracy m — February 12, 2006 @ 11:18 pm
My sister’s sister in law is very vocal about how it’s all disgusting. Her poor husband. The woman absolutely refused to use the Nuvaring the doctor prescribed to her for heavy and painful periods because it went INSIDE HER VAGINA and she’d have to use her fingers to place it there and remove it. The only thing that belongs up there, and only on a limited basis, is her husband’s unit. No toys, no fingers, no doctors, no tampons, no medications. Anything up there is dirty and wrong besides the absolute minimum of her husband on the rare occasion.
This same woman also refuses to remove her garment top during sex.
Why she is so vocal about this is beyond me. It’s dirty and wrong to use Nuvaring but it’s not wrong to proclaim to the whole world she won’t let her husband put his hand between her legs.
****
I’ve always been vocal about sexuality. Back when I was in highschool this outspokeness earned me a looser reputation than I merited. I never understood why talking about how the body functions was bad? I don’t talk explicitly about what my husband and I do in bed, which is no one’s business! But I will tell you where your G spot is if you ask me!
I took a human sexuality course at SUU. A third of the class dropped after a couple weeks. It got too dirty for them. The professor had serious complaints after showing how to wear a condom on two of his fingers. They said he was encouraging premarital sex. Sheesh folks, it’s just a rubber. Even married people have been known to use them.
In my adulthood I’ve run into two men that believed women urinated out of their vaginas, one that believed that the clitoris and the urinary opening were the same thing, and one that believed that anal sex was the way to tickle his wife’s prostate. Yar. No wonder their wives aren’t having orgasms. I might have to start carrying around a diagram.
Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — February 13, 2006 @ 12:15 am
Okay, so I’m glad I found this site at this time. My wife and I have been married for over two years, but with all the ‘is it okay to talk about’ and ‘where to find help’ we have had no help, all learned with each other. Our sex life is great, in my opinion, but I’m the guy, so of course it’s great. My wife reaches orgasm, but not all the time. I’m going to be blunt because I would like some help here to help her enjoy it all more.
My wife, so far in two years, only reaches climax with my manual help. I have been trying to think of ways to help her (different positions) to feel something during the act of intercourse. But she feels nothing, like her clit just isn’t getting any stimulation whatsoever. Me on top, her on top, it doesn’t work. So, we always have me help her go off, then proceed to actual intercourse. But she doesn’t have a great record for even reaching orgasm in that way, maybe 80% of the time she does. Is there any one who could help me know how to help her better? Is there some kind of postition that’s best for her to feel while in the act? I have never asked anyone anywhere for help simply because of the ‘is it okay to talk about this’ feeling. I just want answers to help my wife enjoy the whole experience more!
Comment by Hoping for help — February 13, 2006 @ 12:33 am
OK All of these comments and questions are good - I am all about talking about different tecniques and things to improve your time in the bedroom - but i did have one thing to add…if you aren’t sure if something is ok or not ok to do with your mate in the bedroom - there’s always someone to ask… Honestly - just say a prayer. Your Father in Heaven can tell you if something is appropriate or not - he is the best source for any question. He is also the easiest to ask considering how “taboo” it is to talk about these things in the open (which it shouldn’t be!!). And some of you may even feel uncomfortable talking to him about such a subject, but you must remember that making love is a gift given to us from Him. The powers of procreation are holy, and there is nothing wrong with speaking to him about it - he knows more about it than we could ever be taught from any other source.
Comment by Thoughtfull... — February 13, 2006 @ 12:48 am
A good amount of technical knowledge is a gateway condition to a workable relationship. But once you’ve achieved some degree of knowledge and proficiency, I think it’s tremendously important to make sure that the activity is fun. to use an easy (and clean) analogy, how fun would it be to go on a date if you always saw the exact same movie?
Comment by DKL — February 13, 2006 @ 12:49 am
Good idea, Dave. I’m going to go tell my wife I’d like to see a double feature.
Comment by KDW — February 13, 2006 @ 1:21 am
Hoping for Help-
My exact figure are going to be off, but I read something like 90% of women cannot have an orgasm by vaginal sex alone. There must be manual or otherwise stimulation of the clitoris, so don’t necessarily knock yourself out for not being able to find a position that will acheive this- it may not be possible for you and your wife.
There is such a thing as a vaginal orgasm (really, look it up- they’re different) but they are far less common and far less intense than clitoral orgasms.
I’m sure your wife is feeling things during vaginal intercourse, and whatever she is feeling is helping her towards her own orgasm, however you help her get there. Try extra lubrication, try having your orgasm first, then concentrating in a relaxing and devoted way on her body…
Comment by tracy m — February 13, 2006 @ 1:23 am
It’s nice to see an open disscussion about sex in Mormon circles. We need more of it! This sounds silly, but I know of someone who was involved in all kinds of things before marriage, but didn’t have a clue that they were wrong because they didn’t know what petting was! They thought it meant a whole other spot on the body.
Anyway, I count myself to be very lucky. My friends are great, and we have been able to talk about stuff together. I even got a kama sutra book at my wedding shower!
And, I have heard that as long as both partners are comfortable with it, and feel respected, anything goes. It’s just too bad that so many are afraid to explore together.
Comment by Aimee — February 13, 2006 @ 1:25 am
Okay, Tracy, but why let him go first? Because a woman can go more than once. And the second is so much better than the first! (And don’t even get me started on the third, or fourth, or . . . )
So once you’re there, you’re ready to go again. A woman is more likely to have a second, and third, if he gets you there first. Because after a good clitoral orgasm, vaginal sex can often do the trick again, all by itself.
Besides, if the guy hasn’t gotten any yet, he’s more likely to be in the mood to try to help you out, rather than rolling over and going to sleep.
Comment by Mardell — February 13, 2006 @ 1:45 am
To number 13…how do you both feel about masturbation during sex? Sometimes I’ve had orgasms during penetration (although this took years of understanding my rhythms to accomplish) and sometimes my husband has helped me orgasm through oral and manual stimulation. However, a no fail have an orgasm during penetration is possible if I can masturbate while my husband is penetrating (easier when I’m on top). I know some women are squeamish about touching themselves (and many think its a sin) but it can help a woman understand her own rhythms and what she needs in regards to stimulation.
I was lucky. While growing up my family was always open about sex and I’ve never had a problem with it. Why on earth, as LDS, should we think sex is dirty or shameful? Everything in our doctrine points to sex between a married man and woman as a sacrament and joy. I actually have more of a puritan husband who is uncomfortable with certain aspects of sexual practice (because he feels “wrong” about certain things) so we don’t use toys, movies, role play, or explore regions that require washing afterwards. Because I’m so adventurous this used to irritate me but I respect his feelings about sex now. We will never be a 5 times a week couple but when we do have sex it is very enjoyable for both of us. And I think this is the crucial point-enjoyment and love should be the first priority. Respect is one of the most important aspects of a relationship-inside and outside the bedroom.
Comment by anonymous woman — February 13, 2006 @ 1:57 am
Yeah, I’m confused. Unless you’re having sex with a 19 year old (or with someone chemically assisted), once a man climaxes, it takes awhile for the penis to get hard enough again to penetrate. I would not recommend advising men to go first - men should learn some self control (think Frankie Goes to Hollywood). Premature ejaculation is a scourge upon the earth.
Comment by Not done yet — February 13, 2006 @ 2:18 am
Thanks for this information. It’s interesting to hear of other people’s experiences.
Comment by Anon — February 13, 2006 @ 2:23 am
#13, calm down.
Take it from a woman: It doesn’t matter whether she’s getting there from your dick, your toungue, your finger, or a little plastic-and-rubber-and-batteries device. Or some combination. All that matters is she enjoys being intimate together.
Most women can’t always have an orgasm from vaginal sex. It’s not a problem, really. Help her have an orgasm however work, her way.
p.s. If you really want to make things happen vaginally, try moving your body up about 4 or 6 inches. To a point where your hips are not level with hers. Where it’s almost uncomfortable for you, as the guy. Depending on how tall you are, you’ll have your chin on the top of her head. Anyway, you’ll rub her clit more as you come in, that way. A lot more. And use ribbed condoms when you do that. Wow . . . fireworks. (Most of the time).
Comment by no i'm not putting my name for this one — February 13, 2006 @ 2:41 am
Kaimi, As long as she picks the movies, that may work fine.
Comment by DKL — February 13, 2006 @ 7:12 am
Every single person participating on this thread is sick and disgusting, without exception.
I adore you all.
Comment by Sister PcPrude — February 13, 2006 @ 7:45 am
Also to #14 and as a continuation of 24’s advice… try using pillows, lots of pillows, and *after* she’s had an orgasm a different way. Three pillows under the hips makes a huge difference in angle, and if you vary your body as well (propped up on your arms, kneeling, like you are doing pushups… ) you can find something that will work for her. Everyone is different, so what works for me (legs wrapped around hubby’s neck, oh yeah) may not work for her. Ask, ask, ask, ask.
My parents were always very open about sex, and a few months before I got married they sat on me (nearly literally sat on me) and got into *way* too much detail. They stopped short of describing tastes, but only because they knew everyone has a different chemistry. This may have emtionally scarred me *grin* but I’m glad they were open rather than being repressed and freaked out about it. I know when my mother was married the only advice my grandmother gave her was that “it isn’t so bad after a year or two.” Talk about sad.
Comment by LAT — February 13, 2006 @ 8:31 am
I thought The Act of Marriage was good for dispelling the “sex is bad” myth in religious terms (for those who feel they still need convincing), but I disliked how formulaic it was about how sex supposedly should be done and for some of its outdated information about women’s sexual response. Women’s Experience of Sex by Sheila Kitzinger and Women’s Sexual Passages (don’t have the author, it’s currently loaned out :-)) are much better for information about the wide range of normal for women. As for prayer, I agree, but prefer to ask Mom about intimate stuff for the same reason that I wouldn’t ask my earthly father. It’s inappropriate.
Comment by LisaB — February 13, 2006 @ 8:34 am
#12 Break the cycle, to steal a phrase from any anti-abuse movement!
Thanks, tracy m!
I hopefully will break the cycle with my own kids. I’ve got a good start– I’m teaching sex ed right now with my 6th grade science class. (It is not, however, anything like the conversation on this thread, I can assure you)!
Continue people. Let’s be learners (said in my schoolteacher voice). ha ha!
Comment by meems — February 13, 2006 @ 8:46 am
I would like to chime in about oral sex. My husband and I have been married for over a decade, and the whole time I was a bit uncomfortable giving and receiving oral sex. So we didn’t try much. I just wasn’t comfortable receiving it and always gagged when I gave it. I would tell him that any woman that said she liked give a b.j. was simply lying or 15 years old and hoping it would make her popular! As a surprise for my husband, I went on amazon.com and ordered the book “the ultimate guide to cunninglus and fellatio” –there’s one book about cunninglus and one about fellatio by Violet Blue (warning, she’s a former porn star and it might be too racy for many) but it has changed our oral sex life! I seriously love it (giving and receiving) It’s my husband’s dream come true!! It’s added a whole new dimension to our sex life. I have always been able to orgasm when we have sex, but the orgasm from oral sex is much more intense!
The big thing for me was learning techniques so I wasn’t gagging the whole time. There are different positions and things to do to make it a better experience (remembering to breathe through your nose so you don’t feel like you’re suffocating, for example) Little things that make a HUGE difference.
I’m enjoying the tips I’ve read so far! Maybe a vibrator is the perfect gift for valentine’s day?? who knew!!
Comment by another female anon — February 13, 2006 @ 8:53 am
He he. I can imagine the deacons with their um…hand-helds reading this Mormon blog next week before the Sacrament. Let’s hope they wash their hands before…or after.
I think it’s one thing if only married LDS or adult-living-together LDS read this blog and make use of it, but teens and singles trying to keep chaste might find it a little titlating. JMO.
Comment by Donna — February 13, 2006 @ 8:57 am
I realize all vibrators are not created equal. Can those of you who regularly use/enjoy them please share some specifics (size, shape, model/serial number, where and how much) pleez?
[comment about specific position removed]
Tip to the ladies — don’t be afraid to communicate exactly what you want and need. Men (at least this one) really feel more manly when we know we are pleasing you. That is the biggest turn on to me anyway.
Comment by Rich — February 13, 2006 @ 9:10 am
Re #20- I agree that things can be very intense when HE waits, however in his original question, he said he usually takes care of her first, then moves on to vaginal intercourse. My thinking was: Shake things up. If “A” is not working, try “B”. Also, sometimes my DH releases that first pent up energy, then devotes some loving attention to me, by the time I am ready, he is too again.
Rich- re:vibrators. There are almost as many types and styles as there are bodies. Some of them are even made specifically for a man’s body- think prostate stimulation. It is pretty much trial and error with what will work for you and your spouse. Again, I suggest The Good Vibrations Catalog- they are female geared and very discreet in their packages. (completely unmarked)
I’ll second women needing to communicate with their husbands about what works and what doesn’t. Let him know, ladies! Don’t be afraid to tell him what feels great, or to gently lead him away from something that isn’t doing for you. If you have a husband who is genuinely trying to please you, help the guy out!
And, I am of the thought-school that masturbation between two married people is totally fine- Sex is a gift from God, and when you are enjoying it with your spouse, it is not wrong. Sometimes you can find wonderful spots and things about your body that you can then share with your spouse, and both of you have a great time. Go for it.
I hope there are no deacons reading this, too. TMI for adolescent boys, but good stuff for married people trying to love one another better. Yay!
Comment by tracy m — February 13, 2006 @ 9:47 am
Okay, even though I’m in favor of getting good information about sex for the sake of your marriage, I have to admit I’m a bit embarrassed by the details here. How about if you’re gonna be specific, either be anon or be at least a little bit more circumspect about how you say it?
Comment by LisaB — February 13, 2006 @ 10:08 am
yes, for God’s sake be anonymous, people. And an “Adults-Only” disclaimer at the top might be nice.
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 10:19 am
Who the heck is DH? It sounds like he really gets around…
Comment by Christian Y. Cardall — February 13, 2006 @ 10:26 am
That about sums up my sex education, too (unless you count lectures about disease in a high school health class).
While I’ve never been one to think that sex is bad or dirty, I’ve been left with a very confused ambivalence about what’s appropriate for married Mormons and decent folk.
Add to that an adult convert DH with plenty of previous experience but who seems to think that all the “fancy stuff” should be left in the past with his drinking and carousing and you’ve got one very conventional sex life. Not (always) bad — sometimes really good! — but geez, I wonder what I’m missing.
So toys are on the okay list? I’ve always been curious to try a vibrator.
Comment by anon for now — February 13, 2006 @ 10:35 am
Vibrators? Lemme yak about this.
Bigger is not better. I have a very small vibrator that runs on hearing aid batteries. It’s commonly known as a bullet. It’s lovely. [comment edited for a little TMI]
Conair makes a handheld massager that has a cord. You can find it in any dept. store by the hair styling appliances. No batteries is a plus.
Many shy women are buying those inexpensive battery powered toothbrushes and using the unbristled side (or removing the bristles). I suppose you can get a toothbrush with your favorite cartoon character on it. No one looks at you funny when you buy a toothbrush.
Condom makers have recently introduced a vibrating ring that goes over his penis. You can buy these where you buy condoms. They only last for about a half hour then they are done for. This is probably good for experimenting with. If you like it buy a bullet.
Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — February 13, 2006 @ 10:37 am
And what’s with all the mystical oneness of sex? If I’ve never felt that does it mean we’re doing it wrong? Or that we’re not as emotionally close as we ought to be? Or is just the way *some* people experience the big buzz, like it sometimes leaves me crying or giggling hysterically over nothing…?
I sometimes feel that I must not be doing it right (or righteously) if all we get from it is a damn good time and not some mystical union of souls.
Comment by anon for now — February 13, 2006 @ 10:42 am
My husband served a foreign speaking mission (Italy!) and I’ve found that having him whisper a constant stream of Italian during the act is very alluring. Since I don’t know what he is saying it’s very easy to imagine it being terribly romantic poetry, or whatever I’m in the mood for hearing (dirty, sweet, take your pick!). I’m not sure how well it would work in some languages, but it may be worth a try. Convincing him to do it was chore, but well worth it.
Also I think I should point out that when I finally got “selfish” and demanded that we go really slowly and insisted that he pleasure me first, that was when *he* really started to enjoy sex. Seeing me get all worked up was the best stimulant he’d ever had and now he insists on pleasing me because it is so enjoyable for him too. And he stays aroused longer which leads to a more powerful climax for him too.
Comment by Anonymous coward for this comment (per LisaB) — February 13, 2006 @ 10:45 am
“when I finally got “selfish” and demanded that we go really slowly and insisted that he pleasure me first, that was when *he* really started to enjoy sex.”
Somehow, I imagine that your husband may have really enjoyed it even prior to this point in time, but I get your message.
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 10:56 am
#35–”Sex talk” isn’t clear enough? How about “Explicit Sex Talk”?
Comment by LisaB — February 13, 2006 @ 10:57 am
Lisa, there’s a difference between a title and a warning. I’m sure you can see that. But it’s FMHLisa’s blog, so do whatever you like.
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 11:03 am
Well, it’s Artemis’s post, so I’m guessing FMHLisa will let her decide. But I do appreciate the anons.
Christian–I assume you’re joking, but just in case you’re not, that’s “darling husband” or “dear husband” or “d*&% husband”–depending on the tone of the post.
Comment by LisaB — February 13, 2006 @ 11:08 am
What I really like is when DH tells me about dreams or fantasies he has. I like to have a scenario/situation in my mind, as it helps keep me focused and relaxed. Does anyone else have a hard time keeping their mind on the current goings-on? It wasn’t a problem before I have kids, but now it feels like my mind is always reeling with thoughts. It really gets me in the mood when he does this, but he doesn’t do it much.
Something I have struggled with is wondering how much is appropriate to think about sex. I feel like the FSoY mantra, that a “preoccupation with sex” is bad is buried into my subconscious mind. But I find that I am a LOT more interested in sex if I’m reading something (even something tame such as And They Were Not Ashamed) that “reminds” me to think about sex. My daily life is full of kids, and it’s hard to flip the switch at night and turn into a lover. I’d be interested to hear tips from other women, particularly moms.
Comment by another anon — February 13, 2006 @ 11:13 am
Thanks for the clarification, LisaB. I was starting to think “Geez - this is a repercussion of the Designated Hitter rule that no one ever told me about!”
Comment by Kaimi — February 13, 2006 @ 11:14 am
As a husband that is sensitive to his wife’s needs and desires, I need some advice. My wife came from a very repressed family and most sex besides “normal” (penetration) sex she still considers dirty. After well over a decade of marriage I have only now been able to convince her to allow me to pleasure her orally. How do I ontroduce her to other things (like vibrators, etc) without her thinking I am a dirty pervert?
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 11:52 am
LisaB, I thought in the past seeing fmhLisa use it so often that it must be her husband’s initials. (I think in one post on a Bible topic it seemed like “Documentary Hypothesis” fit too: I think it said something like “According to DH this passage should be understood to mean that…”) So it was disorienting at first on this post to see so many different people refer to who I had always thought was fmhLisa’s husband. I finally realized it must be something like “Dear Husband”, but I appreciate your explanation of the range of meanings it can take.
Not bad, Kaimi… Designated Hitter would indeed be a good euphemism for “stud.”
Comment by Christian Y. Cardall — February 13, 2006 @ 12:00 pm
I would argue that most of that sort of rhetoric is aimed at men and boys, and it is unfortunate that girls hear it, and internalize it because it affects them so differently. For boys avoiding a ‘preoccupation with sex’ means just don’t think about it too much, but somehow many girls hear this and think it means “don’t think about sex at all because it’s evil!”
Comment by Starfoxy — February 13, 2006 @ 12:20 pm
Anon, in #47 I know that much of the discomfort with toys etc. often stems from where you have to go to get them. They are so often paired with things that we are explicitly told really are evil and dangerous. I know that if my husband showed up with some sort of sex toy he wanted to use I would question where he got it from, and where he got the idea to use it.
Perhaps your wife would feel more comfortable if it felt like something you found and decided on together. This site is a Christian site that sells these sorts of these in a wholesome, marriage centered format. Maybe inviting her to look at the website with you? Also reassurances from you that you aren’t going to smutty stores and looking at websites without her knowing. (I am *not* saying that you are doing these things, or that she might suspect that you’re doing those things. Reassurances like that increase trust and feelings of safety even if the trust is already there.) Full disclosure and forthrightness often go a long way to dispelling the impression of perversion. I hopw that helps and wish you luck!
Comment by Starfoxy — February 13, 2006 @ 12:48 pm
Rich: The Rabbit–accept no substitutes. Oh. my. gosh. Google rabbit vibrator reviews.
47: It took my husband 15 years of breaching the subject occassionally before I was willing to try vibrators (I was able to orgasm manually and orally). A couple of things he did that helped were explaining (more than once, probably 100 times) that seeing (hearing, feeling, etc.) me enjoying how my body felt was a huge portion of him enjoying lovemaking with me. The other thing was learning our Love Languages (we read The 5 Love Languages) and that his was Physical Touch. Knowing this somehow made me understand how giving and receiving physical touch (non-sexual and sexual) truly spoke “love” the loudest for him. For some reason this key made me more willing to try it for *his* sake, and then after trying The Rabbit, I wished I hadn’t waited for so many years. We tried a few others, but this one is truly the best.
Comment by happy anon LDS wife — February 13, 2006 @ 12:54 pm
Great discussion!! Thanks ladies for bringing this out into the open! Someone should publish helpful guidelines to be handed out to newlyweds on the way out of the temple. Tasteful of course, but with enough detail.
Comment by Katreena — February 13, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
“I feel like the FSoY mantra, that a “preoccupation with sex” is bad is buried into my subconscious mind.”
i agree that sometimes this “preoccupation with sex” thing is taken too far by certain female members of the church. Yesterday I taught the gospel principles lesson to our full class of investigators and new members and several pairs of full-time missionaries. When the sister missionary pair chimed in about lustful thoughts and said that porn is so accessible that it can be found on the Disney channel nowadays, I had to remind the class that everyone’s boundaries are different and that some people don’t see the Disney channel as a conduit for pornography (I, for one, tend to have pretty high tolerance levels). I was aghast that semi-innocent things (I don’t want to go into a discussion of the Disney enterprise) are now being misconstrued as evil and tempting and sinful - no wonder people in the church have messed up ideas about sex!
(When a visitor came up to me after church, he said that what he got out of the lesson was that my husband and I lust after each other! hehe! I told him that I was glad that at least something was getting through to the class.)
Back to topic at hand.
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 1:00 pm
You all say you wish your folks had been more open, but trust me when I say that there’s nothing worse than your mom trying to tell you that she enjoys her nipples being licked during sex. Makes you want to think of anything OTHER than sex for a good long time.
Comment by MarissaS — February 13, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
So I’m on a sort of mini hiatus and I come back and find this. Wonderful!
Just to add my two cents. I think a lot of the discomfort with toys and positions and adventurousness in general comes from that big question at least one person has raised already: what if s/he thinks I’m a pervert??? I bet there are plenty of situations where both partners wanted to try something but were too preoccupied with that worry that no one ever brought it up. Married to a convert with a…colorful past, and being pretty much unshockable myself, this has not be a problem for us, but I have a suggestion/devious plan for those of you who might:
Go to one of the websites (not a store!) mentioned above, with your mate beside you, ostensibly to look for something relatively innocuous, like…say…massage oil. Start clicking around and let the conversation roll. I think it’s easier to bring something up within the context of “wow! look at that! that looks interesting/wacky/fun/hot” than to have to work up the courage to bring it up out of the blue. Besides, shopping/browsing together like that can be fun and funny. Not to mention the fact that your wife might want to choose the color/size/shape/function of her vibrator, and your husband might want to choose the flavor of that massage oil! Give the people what they want!
Comment by EmilyS — February 13, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
Haven’t read any of the comments following the original post.
Where was it on the bloggernacle that someone mentioned a singles’ ward chastity talk where this preciously oblivious and unaware young sister told the congregation about sex before and after marriage by reading, out loud, Green Eggs and Ham.
Would you do it with a fox?
Would you do it in a box?
Gosh, I wish I’d been there.
P.S. The sex-food association never did it for me. Always seemed a little icky.
Comment by Seth R. — February 13, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
#39 anon for now - I wouldn’t worry too much about that mystical union thang. Some people feel it (some people think they need to feel it in order for their activities to be stamped with the Lord’s approval) and some people don’t. I think laughing and romping together and having some really fab orgasms is just as unifying, without all the Sunday School or romance novel rhetoric.
I remember one “chastity” lesson in YW wherein the advisor told us how she felt the Spirit with them on their wedding night, and that totally skeeved me out. I can appreciate that some people like/need/want that feeling, but personally, I wouldn’t want to feel that anyone else was in the room…let alone my (spirit)parents.
Comment by EmilyS — February 13, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
EmilyS: agreed — that’s really creepy, second only to learning that someone conceived their children “through the Garment.”
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 1:30 pm
One of the things that is kind of neat that other people have mentioned is attitude. It does make a difference. For me, foreplay and teasing are a big part of the whole experience. DH once “accidentally” touched my breasts while we were watching a concert, and it was amazing. Of course I saw through it (bless his heart) but the playful courtship was everything.
Comment by Jenn — February 13, 2006 @ 1:37 pm
Christian I found your question about “DH” to be extremely funny.
But then again, I thought you knew what it meant.
Comment by Jesse — February 13, 2006 @ 1:45 pm
Great comments, everyone! I have to keep this short (I’m on a lunch break), but kudos to everyone. I think you’ve discussed all the good details while keeping the right amount of respect. And no trolls yet. (No real trolls–nice to see you Prudence!)
A couple of random thoughts–
I’ve always avoided vibrators on the premise that I don’t want to get a ‘fake high’ or whatever. But I could be persuaded, I suppose.
I second the ribbed condom thing–lovely, with the right brand. We prefer Lifestyles.
Sometimes my husband just doesn’t have enough hands, so I’ll help him out by stimulating an area he’s not working on at that moment. I was slightly guilty/ambivalent about it at first, but DH had no problem with it and I concluded that “WE’RE” still having sex, so it’s not the solo-stimulation that I think is the impetus behind the masturbation taboo–you want to associate sexual feelings with your spouse. So I’m good now.
RE: TMI comments. I’m okay with you sharing personal information about YOUR sex life and your not being anon as long as it doesn’t get outright raunchy. I figure most of the people who don’t approve of this talk will probably not make it past my original post. I like the recommendations of books you like–I can check out the descriptions there, if I need to. And an occasional diagram IS helpful (though I prefer diagrams to photos, as per the original post).
I guess my only question at this point is, any ideas on how to appropriately loosen up our culture so people who think they’re not supposed to enjoy sex, can?
But keep the tips coming.
BTW, I got an interesting email this week from Ideal Bite–if you’re interested in non-PVC vibrators and other green or veg. sex things (no, I’m not kidding) go to Idealbite.com–Romance tips and click on ‘Master of Your Own Doman’. If you don’t find it informational, you might at least find it entertaining.
Comment by Artemis — February 13, 2006 @ 1:53 pm
That wasn’t very short, was it….
Comment by Artemis — February 13, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
My wife and I have been married for just under 13 years. When we were first married, we would experiment with oral sex and manual stimulation a fair amount–going the 69 route and all that. As the years went by, she lost interest in that, and now only allows me to give her oral sex occasionally. Consequently, she rarely climaxes. I don’t think this bothers her; it stands to reason that she’d be happier with a more “exciting” sex life, but considering that she knows what it means to experience orgasm, and yet rarely wants me to go through with actually providing her with one, I have to wonder just how important it is to her. Perhaps her distaste for such “non-traditional” sex outweighs her desire for physical pleasure?
Comment by keeping it anonymous, upon request — February 13, 2006 @ 1:59 pm
I may or may not be in that same category. I enjoy sex, orgasm or no orgasm. Sometimes working for that orgasm is too much due to tiredness or whatever. Also sometimes the stimulation to get there is too much. I prefer sex for sex sake and rarely worry about reaching orgasm. If I make it great, if I don’t…I still have a good time.
Comment by Wendy — February 13, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
I’ve always wondered what is okay and what isn’t. My sister had a teacher at BYU who told the class that, if you had oral sex, you’d go straight to the telestial kingdom. He told the class it was an unpardonable sin. She told this to me, and while I have oral sex (and enjoy it), I always feel guilty, like I’m committing some terrible sin that’s right up there with murder. I thought anal sex, movies, mutual masterbuation, and sex toys, were big no-no’s too. I have had other members tell me that anything that isn’t the missionary position is a sin, and that if it’s not done when a woman is ovulating and might get pregnant it’s a sin, but while I’ve managed to dismiss those myths without much thought, I do have hang-ups on other things. I’ve honestly never considered myself a prude, but reading this post, I just keep thinking, My poor husband! All the things he’s wanted to do, and he’s missed out on, because of me!
So, is it really a matter of anything goes? Can I be more adventurous in the bedroom and not justify my standing in the here-after?
Comment by too chicken — February 13, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
Here’s another pretty un-pornographic resource for interesting shopping sprees: Toys in Babeland was listed as Best Shopping Experience in Zagat’s survey, if that matters to you
Comment by EmilyS — February 13, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
#64 should’ve been jeapordise, not justify
Comment by too chicken — February 13, 2006 @ 2:13 pm
“I was slightly guilty/ambivalent about it at first, but DH had no problem with it and I concluded that “WE’RE” still having sex, so it’s not the solo-stimulation that I think is the impetus behind the masturbation taboo–you want to associate sexual feelings with your spouse.”
This gets me thinking. My wife and I will sometimes go an month or two without sexual intercourse or really any sexual contact whatsoever. She is a beautiful woman, but she is often ill and in pain and otherwise just not in the mood. It has been this way for many years, and I respect her feelings. I occasionally masturbate. I think about my wife while doing so. I believe what I am doing is wrong, but I am not sure it is a greater wrong than would be involved in confessing to the bishop, going into counseling, and bringing great deal of guilt and frustration into our marriage. I have never been unfaithful in any other way. I do believe that she simply assumes men ought to overcome their sex drive, and the thought of trying to explain to her, after years of what has so far been a quite successful marriage, that things arent always like that, is not appealing to me.
I’m ok with the compromise I’ve ended up with–not really happy, but ok. But if discussions like these make it more likely that good boys like our sons will not have to make similar compromises with Mormon girls they end up marrying, than that is even better.
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 2:18 pm
#65 - Many such rumors have been spread by well-meaning but misinformed people over the years. But the first presidency has given specific instructions to bishops and stake presidents at least twice over the last 15 years stating that priesthood leaders should not ask about the intimate relations between a husband and wife and that if a couple have questions about the appropriateness of a particular activity they should seek the guidance of the spirit. Of course there are some things that we have specifically been told to avoid, such as pornography and solo masturbation. But I believe there is nothing wrong with the other things you mentioned.
Comment by yet another anon — February 13, 2006 @ 2:49 pm
Church leaders certainly aren’t shy about proclaiming what is and is not appropriate. I think if oral sex were as greivious a sin as this teacher says it is, we *definitely* would have heard more about it. Also I think that if there were as strict of guidelines as many people think there are, then the leaders would be much more explicit than “not everything goes behind closed doors.”
I think that the levels of “appropriate behavior” vary so widely between every couple that it would be impossible to issue a church-wide guideline that would do more good than harm. As is stands, we are encouraged to work with eachother and the Lord with the understanding that there are some boundaries, but also with the understanding sex and it’s trappings are not inherently bad. I don’t think you’re going to go to hell.
Comment by Starfoxy — February 13, 2006 @ 2:49 pm
I am SOOOO going to use this thread in my next Gospel Doctrine lesson!
Aaron B
Comment by Aaron Brown — February 13, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
I hope this doesn’t make me sound way out there, but I believe there are a wide range of sexual activities that a couple can enjoy together without violating the law of chastity / temple covenants. Something my husband and I found very enjoyable a few years ago when he was travelling a lot for work is phone sex. Many evenings after the kids were in bed, I would call him at his hotel and we would share fantasies and sexy talk while masturbating together. Now if either of us had masturbated alone or with someone else, I feel that would have been very wrong. But doing it together was a wonderful experience. It was very enjoyable, and it helped bond us closer together during a time when we couldn’t spend much time physically together.
Comment by yet another anon — February 13, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
Rusty, #2, you really expect me to add something to this?
The comments about frigid Mormons weren’t my general pre-marriage experience (I found Mormon women to be rather good at it.), but that was a generation ago. The LDS youth chastity police may be more active now. However, my oldest daughter is 23, has been on her own a few years now and has gone through a few serious boyfriends. I’d be amazed if she is still a virgin, and it doesn’t bother me in the least.
Well, that’s my two cents.
Comment by Steve EM — February 13, 2006 @ 3:06 pm
My wife began to loosen up after a pre-Valentine’s Day Enrichment a couple of years ago. It was full of romance (and other *wink-wink*) suggestions for the sisters, and taught by a wonderful couple whom everyone respected, and knew they adored each other.
What was particularly memorable was my wife coming home and telling me what the brother said, asking me if I agreed. He said, “Women like Victoria’s Secret; but men like Fredericks of Hollywood. If you really wear lingerie for your husband, wear the kind that really gets to him!” Of course I agreed. DW and I made one of several trips to Fredericks shortly after that.
Unfortunately, there hasn’t been a similar Enrichment, because the Bishop didn’t want to make the single sisters feel excluded. But the experience helped my wife feel more comfortable talking with me about our intimacy.
Comment by Polly — February 13, 2006 @ 3:17 pm
Sex isn’t inherently bad, but it is inherently bad for women.
There did that get your attention? I’m being deliberately provocative, of course (see, this really isn’t about me hating sex: I don’t, but I’m not at all interested in discussing that in a public, mostly-anonymous forum), but that doesn’t mean I’m wrong. The simple truth is that the costs and benefits of sex are distributed unequally between the sexes: the costs are enormous for women and the benefits much smaller, while the costs are nearly negligible for men and the benefits very, uh, compelling. Consider: the costs for women include pregnancy and its consequences, and a far greater susceptibility to physical and emotional pain or even injury, while the benefits—the gratifying of the sex drive–are relatively small given female anatomy and the cyclical and comparatively weak female libido; in contrast, the physiological and (it appears) emotional costs for men are about nil, while the benefits to the persistent and highly motivating male libido are obvious.
Of course, a stable marriage, birth control, a basic anatomical familiarity, and the wonders of modern technology can go some way in minimizing the costs and maximizing the benefits for women—and I’m (mostly) in favor of all those things. But I’m highly skeptical that frank talk and toys will succeed in changing the nature of what is fundamentally–across entire gendered populations—an assymetrical experience. Women, as a group, will always bear a greater burden for sex than will men, as a group—and thus more sex will always be better for men than it is for women. “Sex strengthens marriage” really means, of course, that marital sex makes marriage more pleasurable for men—and although wives clearly have a lot at stake in their husbands’ willingness to stick around, this is an indirect and instrumental benefit.
So do I think it’s a good idea to “loosen up our culture,” to encourage couples to have more sex, to suggest husbands and wives to relate to each other primarily as sexual partners, to posit sexual fulfillment as a major criterion of a successful marriage, to promise women (and men) that a sexual utopia free from the tragic incompompatibilities of the sexes is just a click away? I don’t know, but I really have my doubts. Have you seen the photographs of women in that “Cosmo” you hide? Do you think it’s a coincidence that the relaxing of sexual modesty is almost always accompanied by an intense and exploitive sexualization of women? I don’t.
Comment by Rosalynde — February 13, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
Talking about lingerie - I remember mentioning to a friend that I wanted to buy some new lingerie and being told by her that it wasn’t appropriate as I wouldn’t be wearing my garments.
I’m not surprised this thread has attracted so much attention (although some of it is a little TMI for me! :)) as it’s never talked about except in negative way. But the fact that it isn’t talked about in church circles tells me your sex life is nothing to do with the church - it’s between a husband and wife.
Comment by Rebecca — February 13, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
Rosalynde,
As much as I would prefer to remain a silent observer of this thread I am compelled to respond. First, I want to know the definition of “assymetrical”, is it the measuring of your partner’s rear end? What kind of experience is that?
Second, you say:
So do I think it’s a good idea to “loosen up our culture,” to encourage couples to have more sex, to suggest husbands and wives to relate to each other primarily as sexual partners, to posit sexual fulfillment as a major criterion of a successful marriage, to promise women (and men) that a sexual utopia free from the tragic incompompatibilities of the sexes is just a click away? I don’t know, but I really have my doubts.
I don’t see anyt of that being suggested here. I’ll admit that I have only read about 50 of the posts so far. I haven’t seen suggestions for more sex, just mutally fulfilling sex. I haven’t seen suggestions that place primary importance on sexuality, or create any false promises of utopia. Most of what I have been reading is a dose of reality on a subject that is generally taboo. Have we been reading the same post? Can a post suggest ways to improve your sex life without suggesting that sex is the be-all and end-all of existence?
Comment by a random John — February 13, 2006 @ 3:44 pm
People have been haivng sex from the beginning of time. I’m no prude, but there’s a reason private relationships are, well…private. In my experience, this adds to the “specialness” and excitement of the sex act(s). No number of gizmos, thingamajigs, apparatuses or indelicate suggestions from friends or strangers could improve what my spouse and I have together. It’s kind of creepy to do/read a play-by-play of people’s “skillz”. That’s what professionals and well-researched books/jourals/educational films are for.
On the other hand, if anyone needs these kinds of expositons, it should be people in singles wards, especially older singles’ wards. It’s sad that sex is such a no-no until age 25, 30, 40 or 50 or whenever they marry, and then they’re just supposed to go at it, having put all sex thoughts out of their heads for decades.
Comment by Anon4 — February 13, 2006 @ 3:53 pm
Starfoxy #7
The They Were Not Ashamed book is amazing. It goes into depth about the Orange described in #0, how we are taught sex is evil one day, wonderful the next. It examines the guilt that might come from this and how to become more comfortable with each other. I can’t recommend it enough, my wife has actually given it as bridal shower gifts to a close friend and a couple of cousins.
Sex for us really changed as soon as my wife decided it as ok to start enjoying it. She was afraid to suggest anything, and a psycho grandmother had told her over and over that sex wasn’t for woman to enjoy. For the first 6 months of marriage it was basically me in the missionary position taking care of myself. As soon as we started taking time manually and orally with each other, talking and discussing what was working for her, it became a totally different experience.
We’ve also tried a few games you can find on any of the sites suggested. Most of them are pretty basic board games with cards for positions and touching. Land on a red square and nibble an earlobe, land on a blue square and tell them a sexy thought, land on a purple square and pick a position card, etc. They are alot of fun and are a good way to try new things without feeling embarrased about suggesting them.
Comment by by request, anonymous husband — February 13, 2006 @ 3:58 pm
I’m actually suprised it took 75 posts for someone to suggest making sex more pleasurable for women is a plot for men to get more sex. An improved sex life hasn’t led to me having much more sex, but it has led to my wife going from almost zero enjoyment, to almost always enjoying it. Sex is a way for couples to enjoy each other and become closer, how exactly is this a bad thing?
Comment by jjohnsen — February 13, 2006 @ 4:06 pm
Rosalynde,
As a woman married to a man with a low libido (not having a physical cause) I find most of your post ridiculous.
I’d love to have more marital sex to make marriage more pleasing for ME, a woman with a NORMAL drive.
As if my urge for sex within marriage was only to satisfy my drive. It’s not. I long for that spiritual closeness that doesn’t compel my husband. I long for him to be healed of the hurts that have affected his views on sexuality.
BTW, I haven’t read a Cosmo for at least ten years. The generalizations in that magazine are much like the generalizations in your post… Interesting conversation fodder for the masses, but of little use to individual couples.
Comment by anonymous chicken — February 13, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
Rosalynde,
Very brave my dear! I personally agree very much with your statement that women bear the burden of sex, unfair, so unfair, but true nonetheless.
But I heartily disagree with your conclusions. Maybe you didn’t mean to, but the structure of your argument tends to imply that more sexual pleasure/enjoyment for women is only actually good for men. And that more sexual plesure for women leads to women being sexually exploited and demeaned. Both conclusion totally disregard that pleasure for it’s own sake is worth while for women (yeah baby!), and the later makes all kinds of false assumptions about the consequesencs of female pleasure.
If those weren’t actually your arguments, I think you should clarify.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 13, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
Rosalynde, two points:
First: I’m not sure why your point about symmetry is relevant to the conversation. The sexual relationship is part and parcel of marriage, and anything that can increase fulfillment of either partner without detracting from the other is to be desired.
Second: I think that the habit of viewing things in terms of symmetry is basically a destructive practice. The very nature of relationships is that they are composed of asymmetries. In many cases, these are complementary, but in many others they are not. We can talk about the net total of these asymmetries, and applaud the ideal that they be equal or decry the fact that they aren’t. But this net total is purely an unquantifiable abstraction, and is largely meaningless in practice.
Comment by DKL — February 13, 2006 @ 4:42 pm
arJ: I am compelling, am I not?
I think it highly possible—nay, probable— that we can have a single thread about sex on FMH and still avoid my doomsday scenario. The question I raised, though, was whether we can meaningfully relax an entire system of cultural mores of sexual modesty—a theme I’ve seen repeated in the comments—without seeing a concommitant (and detrimental) sexualization of women. Maybe we can—and in many way I’d love to see it happen, believe me, I like the idea of a sexual utopia as much as the next gal—but, well, I’ll believe it when I see it, and I haven’t seen it yet.
jjohnsen and anonymous whatever: Not to worry, my dears, I have absolutely nothing to say (and absolutely no desire to say it) about your personal sex lives. As I repeatedly stressed, I’m talking about net effects on entire groups of people—not about the outcomes of individual couples.
fmhLisa: Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify: as I wrote. I’m all in favor of those things that minimize the costs and maximize the benefits of sex for women—in short, I’m all for increasing sexual pleasure for women for its own sake. What I’m skeptical about is the proposition that talking more, more explicitly, and more cheerleaderly about sex will, in fact, have the net effect of increasing women’s sexual fulfillment.
DKL: I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing about, since I take both your points without caveat. My point is that the fantasy of symmetry still remains just that, any amount of cultural tinkering notwithstanding.
Comment by Rosalynde — February 13, 2006 @ 4:56 pm
All of the sudden you are supposed to do it, and worst of all, what about those of us who can’t have intercourse?? That is what happened to me. I was looking forward to it, but due to disease, we can’t do the deed! Luckily our relationship is good enough to try other things, but I am so sad for other women who may have the same issue but believe that you can only do it one way.
It’s sad to me that no one tole me that it could even be an issue, not even my doctor at the time of diagnosis! What a sad way to find out my state. And if I had been more informed and educated, and willing to educate myself before hand (a big no-no in most LDS circles) I would have made some very different choices concerning marriage.
Talking about it openly is not going to cause people to go out and do it! It needs to be done, at the very least, so people can really understand what goes on and so they can feel comfortable talking about it with their spouses!
Comment by Sexy no more — February 13, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
rosalynde, i really enjoyed your comments. i agree that when we, as a society, become more and more explicit in how we talk about sex, the result will be a greater objectification of women (i assume that is what you are saying, please correct me if i’m wrong). i think it is great for couples to find out what works for them and to have a great sex life. but i do wonder how men’s perceptions of women change with when they are exposed to sex toys, suggestive pictures, etc. is it possible that in our quest to have great sex lives ( a good goal by the way) we also are creating an environment where there is greater expectation for women to act a certain way or perform certain acts. i suppose the same could be said for men, but somehow it always seems to wind up at the feet of women. just my two cents.
Comment by ala — February 13, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
I have lurked on this site for a while and haven’t posted. This one calls me to action (although I cannot believe I am posting). I am LDS, married to a WONDERFUL LDS man, with a great relationship. I am more “open minded” than most LDS women and haven’t been to church in a while - that’s another post if I ever get there. Anyway, my thoughts on this subject for anyone who may care or benefit. If you feel loved, respected and “good” with your spouse and never feel pushed to explore beyond what “feels right” I think anything goes. It’s personal between you, your spouse, and heavenly father when guidance is needed. Any teacher in any class who expels certain acts as sinful is creating a larger sin in my opinion. Who put them in charge of discussing sexual appropriateness for the church? Come on, that just perpetuates a lot of the negative stereotypes of LDS people judging those around them instead of working on their own issues. To answer # 14 - the only time I ever have a problem with a vaginal orgasm is when I’m suffering from a yeast infection. Sometimes you have one and don’t know you have one - has your wife been to a doctor recently? That may be the culprit. I would call this an old wives tale but any time I have that issue, I can expect to experience more distinct symptoms of a yeast infection within days - once the treatment has run its course life is GREAT! Also, your wife may feel more feisty (and increase her chances of climax) if she takes charge. I find that if I initiate and take total control, odds are it’s gonna be better for me.
# 26 - way to judge people who have helped me through some issues with mormonism better than most people I know in person. You’re RIGHT - they are horrible for trying to increase the joy of MARITAL sex… hope you catch the distinct sarcasm here, if you’re stil reading this horrible thread!
Comment by no name — February 13, 2006 @ 6:06 pm
Ummm….will someone please give me a substantive reason why this is not laughable? Seriously.
Let’s see…not talking about sex leads people perpetuate their dysfunctionallity. Instead of communicating their needs and realizing satisfying sexual union with their partners, people remain frustrated and turn to objectification to get satisfaction.
This is like bizarro world. The premise that men finding sexual satisfaction in their monogamous relationships through non-traditional means requires their partner be objectified and denigrated is preposterous. It is quite sad.
Comment by Concerned Naclite — February 13, 2006 @ 6:09 pm
let me clarify…..it isn’t talking about sex that is wrong….it is way in which we talk about sex..two very different things.
Comment by ala — February 13, 2006 @ 6:28 pm
Ala, please explain in what ways we can talk about sex the objectify or denigrate women and the mechanism for the abuse.
Comment by Concerned Naclite — February 13, 2006 @ 6:39 pm
CN:
The fact that these kinds of discussion invariably end up with some man asking for advice on how he can convince his wife to do things that she feels uncomfortable doing is proof enough. The feel bad for the wives of the men who’ve read this thread and added it to their arsenal of arguments of why they should get more oral or anal sex.
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
Should be “I feel bad…
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
ok……i’m not sure i follow your request exactly but here goes. couples can and certainly should talk about their needs and desires. such discussions should be open and honest and direct. however, what passes as openness and honesty today often amounts to blunt discussions and explicit images in the media. as a result of media exposure, images and ideas that objectify women can become like a third person in the bedroom, creating barriers in the form of unspoken ideals that break down communication.
Comment by ala — February 13, 2006 @ 6:58 pm
thanks, anon…that is a great example of the kind of thing i had in mind….
Comment by ala — February 13, 2006 @ 7:00 pm
I agree that there are men who use this kind of discussion as ammo for what you describe. I think, however, that there is more wrong with that kind of relationship than the fact that we are talking about sex. It’s almost like saying women shouldn’t be allowed to talk about dyeing their hair because some man who wants a blonde wife will use their words and actions to coerce his unwilling wife to bleach her hair. Men who will act like that don’t have the best interest of their wives at heart.
We’re working from the foundational assumption that most LDS women(and men) have been exposed to all sorts of folk doctrines about sex which are at the root of their *unhealthy* disomfort with sex in general. If their wives aren’t dealing with those issues and still don’t like anal or oral sex then those men have no right to pressure them. Deep down those men know which side of the fence they’re on, and if they don’t then they need to do some soul searching.
Comment by Starfoxy — February 13, 2006 @ 7:29 pm
No, I really disagree with that. To me, “sex strengthens marriage” means that both of us are happier when our sex life is a happy one. I am more willing to overlook those little annoying things when I’ve been made thoroughly happy. Sex makes both of us feel closer together; it reconnects us when life has been dragging us apart. And, sex really relaxes me; it’s one of the few times that I can let go of all my worries and just enjoy my husband. It’s very good for me, as well as for him.
Anyway, on to my question: some of you have recommended ribbed condoms, which I’ve always kind of wanted to try. But there is the problem that my husband is on the large side, and can only wear the Magnums. Which, if you will peruse the condom section of the drugstore, only come in the plain variety. Apparently those of us with well-endowed husbands are supposed to be made so happy by this circumstance that we have no desire for flavored or ribbed condoms or anything. So: does anyone know of such a thing as large ribbed condoms?
Also, I am now thinking of looking into vibrators. That’s a new one for me.
Comment by anon this time — February 13, 2006 @ 7:34 pm
“not talking about sex leads people perpetuate their dysfunctionallity. ”
On the contrary, the very idea of “sexual dysfunction” is only thinkable in a society in which sex is already talked about quite a lot.
Comment by Rosalynde — February 13, 2006 @ 8:13 pm
Thank you for your advice in here! We tried a pillow and me up higher, and she said she started to feel something! So, now we just have to experiment and see what works.
On another note, for those who think I was asking anything to get more sex is wrong! We have two kids, and it’s REALLY hard to find a chance to be intimate together. We used to be 4-5 times a weekers, now we are lucky to get to be together once a week! My whole reason for asking for help is this: I love my wife so much, and she is such a wonderful wife, she deserves more! For the few times we do get together, I want them to be the best for her. We already know it’ll be great for me everytime, now I just want to try and make sure it’s great for her everytime. We aren’t into oral or anything else, nothing beats what God made our bodies to do. I just know that there must be some way to make the whole experience better for both partners, not to make one an ‘object’ for the other’s pleasure. If that happens, love is replaced with lust.
Comment by Hoping for Help — February 13, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
Rosalynde,
So if I have, say cancer, but nobody talks about cancer, then I don’t have cancer?
Comment by a random John — February 13, 2006 @ 8:44 pm
Jenn, I didn’t know you visited this site! Well, congratulations on your marriage. I’m glad it worked out for you!
Comment by meems — February 13, 2006 @ 9:06 pm
So…. I have a husband who is really a prude. No videos (not even R rated movies) no toys, no role play, etc. Even though I am generally “satisfied” by our extremely traditional sex, I am still bored. I personally would really, really, like to try a vibrator, but what should I do if my hubby isn’t willing to go there? Do any of you have any good advice on how to gently persuade my husband that there’s nothng evil about vibrators?
Comment by anony for now — February 13, 2006 @ 9:18 pm
There is a vast difference in attitudes between women who don’t like sex, for various reasons, and those who do.
Women who are asexual have a lot of issues.
What is interesting about asexual women is:
over 75% of women who report they have never had an orgasm actual orgasm regularly and just do not connect with their bodies enough to feel it.
over 50% of women who do not like sex change their attitudes dramatically with very mild amounts of testosterone (usually a skin patch) and/or proper amounts of food and vitamins.
Also of note is that asexual men feel very much about sex like asexual women, they just tend not to be noticed as much.
95% of the people assume that their sexual experiences and perspectives are, or should be, universal.
Finally, most people have continuous shifts (often very modest) in what works for them and what doesn’t. Attentive foreplay is important. The more, the better.
But, even people who really like sex often find that enough is enough and that there is more to life:
The author of this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0446512702 now writes and talks about finding deeper meanngs in life than just sex. Though if you really want to understand what is happening in and with your body, this is the book.
Comment by Anon Always — February 13, 2006 @ 9:20 pm
Oh, go to the link and read the comments.
Comment by Anon Always — February 13, 2006 @ 9:23 pm
Hey Rosalynde! (#75).
Have you seen the photographs of women in that “Cosmo” you hide?
Actually, I don’t look at the pictures. I only read them for the articles.
Comment by meems — February 13, 2006 @ 9:35 pm
Rosalynde’s comment is spot on.
And, in an unrelated point, being feminist and free-thinking is not the same as being coarse and crude. This thread is beneath FMH. Or at least it should be.
Comment by Anon — February 13, 2006 @ 10:03 pm
Rosalynde,
I can’t help but think your comment No. 75 is bad for women. This thread reminds us that Mormon women are often not taught enough about sex and often feel there is no place to get the information they seek. Forums like this are a wonderful resource for those seeking a safe place to ask questions and get advice from others who have our peculiar belief system.
You are a PhD and a feminist, and so in my opinion your comment is uniquely bad for women. Many here find you to be intelligent and hold your comments in high regard. However, your comment is about as repressive a comment as I have heard expressed about sex. And let me tell you: I am a mormon women; I have heard repressive. You insinuate that those here seeking advice on how to make their sex lives better for themselves and their husbands wouldn’t being doing such an ignorant thing if they just knew what it was they were really doing. There need not be any assymetery in individual relationships. I can’t speak for society at large. All I can do is my part and make sure that my relationship is as symmetrical as I would like it to be. It appears to me that that is the goal of nearly everyone on this thread.
Sex is a mighty good thing, made for many women much better with education. Your attitude does a disservice to women everywhere. Heaven forbid someone decide that since you are smart, you must know what you are talking about and then decide that a better sex life is not worth pursuing. Your comment makes it sound, at least to me, like sex is all about the man. Sex is not all about the man–at least not if you are doing it right.
Comment by one more anon — February 13, 2006 @ 10:22 pm
oops, meant to sign #106 as myself
skl (aka dkl’s wife)
Comment by skl — February 13, 2006 @ 10:30 pm
It’s coarse and crude for married people to feel comfortable to anonymously ask questions that might help improve their loving, monogamous sexual relationship? That’s the whole problem with many people’s attitude towards sex, because of their upbringing in the church. They get the the subtle and sometimes blunt message that anything other than missionary position sex is “coarse and crude”. I say if even one woman finds information on this thread that helps her have a more satisfying sexual experience than FMH deserves a standing ovation!
Seriously, stop reading and don’t participate if this is beneath you or makes you feel like women are objectified. I don’t agree with you, Rosalynde. Maybe in broad terms, but not the spirit of this thread.
P.S. I must say I do believe that if people are going to get specific, going anonymous is a must! I don’t talk about sex specifics with anyone, other than my husband. It really is no one’s business but ours. But if I know something that works, I’m happy to post it anonymously– share the joy!!
Comment by another female anon — February 13, 2006 @ 10:39 pm
“over 75% of women who report they have never had an orgasm actual orgasm regularly and just do not connect with their bodies enough to feel it.”
Um….what?
Comment by anon — February 13, 2006 @ 11:58 pm
so what about those of us who can’t have sex?? married folks for whom actual intercourse isn’t possible! we are out there you know, and it’s even more important for us to gain information and knowledge. it is not in anyway crude to improve your most important of all earthly relationships.
you know, sex is much more than intercourse, and both men and women would be so much happier if they realized that the big o isn’t the end all, and that you can be intimate and sexual in so many other ways.
Comment by Sexy no more — February 14, 2006 @ 12:18 am
I enjoy sex with my husband very much, even without orgasm. Being close to him, enjoying one anothers bodies, and the love between us, is quite wonderful. But I might get riled up in a hurry if I didn’t EVER get that blissful release.
The problem isn’t really that we don’t discuss sex enough, it’s that we don’t tell people that it’s okay to discuss it with their spouse. It’s okay to have questions, and it’s natural to want your partner to be pleased. And since many couples feel like they can’t ask their spouse what the problem is, the go places they shouldn’t in order to find out. If you aren’t comfortable enough with your spouse to discuss the incredibly physical and intimate act you share, you have other communication and trust issues to deal with. That doesn’t mean your marriage is a sham, it just means you have some walls left to breach.
There are only 2 things I wouldn’t even consider doing. No, I’m not telling you what they are!! Dirty butts… But I’m willing to give everything else at least a passing thought. Dh read this thread, and my plain vanilla husband totally disappeared!! It’s always the quiet ones who surprise you!
Comment by Sorry, no name this time — February 14, 2006 @ 1:11 am
And the award for most unsexy comment on a “sex talk” thread goes to…
Just teasing, Rosalynde, but the stance you take in your original comment does deserve a prize for most unique position, and on this thread that’s saying a lot.
However, I do understand where you’re coming from on one point. I used to worry a lot about sex being asymmetrical too.
But then I installed a mirror on our bedroom ceiling. Problem solved.
In all seriousness though, remember that time you told everyone who reads FMH that breasts were a lot like beards. I spent the next 72 minutes rubbing my chin. I got nothing out of it but a case of stubble burn on the palm of my hand.
I learned some valuable lessons that day. First, this blog is not the place to turn for useful sex information, and second, even my idols sometimes get things wrong.
It’s okay. I still think you’re cool.
Comment by Brian G — February 14, 2006 @ 5:30 am
I think labeling this discussion “adults only” is just a great big neon sign to the youth that screams READ ME!
Also for the adventurous, check out the remote butterfly. It is absdolutely silent and runs on a remote. Imagine the possibilities…here
Also, a little graphic here WARNING….
Anal stimulation for him. I dont have a prostate but he does. A well placed finger can send him places. It DOES NOT make you gay guys.
Also when I was a very naughty girl, I used to say “show me a guy whose girl aint givin him [oral pleasure] and I’ll show you a guy I can steal” I think the same can go for girls. Oral is very satisfying.
Comment by state the obvious girl — February 14, 2006 @ 7:40 am
Anony for now #101, It sounds like hubby is a control freak and you may be enabling his unrighteous dominion. Take control (a heterosexual man who isn’t turned on my his lover’s sexual aggression has major sexual hang-ups and may need professional help.). But to avoid shock, just tell him when he’s completely unaroused that you have some toys you’d like his help with the next time he’s in the mood. If he objects, say your looking for a shared experience rather than self experimentation. If he threatens to leave you or involve church leaders, etc, I say let him because such contempt for you indicates that your marriage has been over for a long time and in the absence of him repenting, the marriage should be ended for your sake. If you fear violence, again the marriage has been over for a long time, and forgot everything I said and just leave the jerk.
Comment by Steve EM — February 14, 2006 @ 9:17 am
I would just like to politely counter Steve EM and tell #101 that if her husband is not willing to try movies, sex toys etc. doesn’t lead to all the conclusions Steve is making. Steve, mate, we can’t all keep up with you…
Comment by Ronan — February 14, 2006 @ 9:34 am
SteveEM, you advice is, to be blunt, horrible, immature, and grounded in selfishness.
SEM:
How you came to this conclusion from the posters comment that, “I have a husband who is really a prude. No videos (not even R rated movies) no toys, no role play, etc.” says a lot about your view of others in the Church. That comment can describe many faithful brethren I know, who love and cherish their wives and would never do anything to harm them. Your snap judgment of her husband as a “control freak” sounds like your defensiveness kicking into high gear, IMO.
SEM:
Or, perhaps she could help him open up, and communicate his feelings on why he doesn’t want to participate in those activities. Understanding is a process that takes effort by both husband and wife. Or perhaps, you are suggesting that his views are unimportant because they’re “prudish” by her standards.
The beautiful thing in marriage is that husband and wife are different in more than just physical ways; but they are able to overcome these differences. It often takes effort and open and frank communication.
But to say that a marriage should be ended because a husband is upset that his wife wants to introduce something into their marital bedroom that he’s not comfortable with is wrong. Reverse the genders, and ask yourself if you still espouse that viewpoint.
Comment by Polly — February 14, 2006 @ 10:01 am
Brian, I’m pretty sure you’ve made the mirror joke before, on this blog, even. That’s okay. I still think you’re funny.
Seriously, all, you must realize that a thread like this is just begging, *begging* to have the pot stirred up a bit…. Especially if readers are taking it seriously enough to expect to extract good information about sex from it! Any time the pot needs stirring, I’m there with the spatula. And who can blame me, really, with all the body chocolate and honey dust? If I stir, I get to lick the spoon afterward.
skl, you’re killing me—really, you’re killing me! I’d think that my educational career would, in fact, hurt my credibility more than help it, especially on a thread like this—but in any case, I assure you that you’re taking my diploma far more seriously than I do and, I’d bet the house, most readers do.
Listen, the fact that a smart woman like you would misread my comments so strenuously suggests to me that that—first, I’m a bad writer, which I’ve always known—and second, the ways we talk about sex are so conventional (because we talk about it so much) that we’re not even really communicating any more. I said nothing about repression or objectification—and heaven knows I said *nothing* about what anybody should do to improve their individual sex life! I’ve said two or three times now that those measures that will minimize sexual costs and maximize benefits for women are all fine by me—and that includes *good* information, the wonders of consumer sex technology, and, more than anything, a woman’s robust sense of self-confidence, self-possession, and self-efficacy.
I’m making an observation, and then asking two questions. The observation is: as conventions of sexual modesty have loosened in our culture at large—that is, as we’ve started talking more about sex, talking more explicitly about sex, watching and participating in sex more casually, and so on—we’ve witnessed an intensifying, invasive sexualization of women and girls (at younger and younger ages) in popular representations. I’d expect most feminists to agree with me on this. The questions are: are these two phenomena inherently linked? And does an increased sexualization of women—that is, an increased emphasis on women’s sexual nature—in fact result in an improved sexual experience for women? I’m suggesting (in a provocative way, yes, because, you know, I’m sexy like that) that the answer to the first question is yes, and the answer to the second question is no.
I’d welcome challenges to my observation, or alternative answers to the question: like I said, I’m pretty tentative in my conclusions. But suggestions that I’m sexually repressed—not so much.
Comment by Rosalynde — February 14, 2006 @ 10:01 am
I really like Rosalynde’s thoughful questions and responses. They are hellpful in considering the broader picture instead of focusing on the tasteless minutae of the sex lives of strangers.
Thanks, Rosalynde.
Comment by Anony — February 14, 2006 @ 10:32 am
To answer the original point of this thread… I think there is definitely some predisposition of LDS people to not talk about sex - which in many arenas is a good thing. But, I was lucky to have a mom who was good enough to openly and without embarassment discuss some things that were honestly very good to know, helped out with pleasure, and didn’t scar me for life. I try not to speak about my personal sex details because I think it is a very private and wonderful thing between my husband and I. I know without doubt that he doesn’t share in “locker room” talk and that makes me feel valued. However, we are very open with each other. We have been married 6 years and have hit a VERY busy time in our lives and noticed the frequency of sex is going down. So, we scheduled a “sex talk” to discuss it with each other and make sure we keep it as a priority. I also have a wonderful friend who recently got married. She’s like a sister to me and on the day AFTER her wedding night I had the opportunity to talk with her alone for an hour. In that context, there was no embarassment and I thought it was most helpful for her to have a frank conversation (which she initiated). While some of the details in this thread kind of surprised me, it also led me to think about my own sex life in a more open way for a few minutes - and I don’t think that’s such a bad thing.
Comment by always anon — February 14, 2006 @ 11:11 am
To my critics, I point out #101 asked “Do any of you have any good advice on how to gently persuade my husband that there’s nothing evil about vibrators?”
If you have better practical answers for #101, I suggest you offer them. Also it’s clear my critics don’t seem to understand the meaning of the word “if”. My “conclusions” were conditional.
I gave my answer based on my perspective (as a man) that men, in general, don’t need gently persuasion. In general, if you don’t ask a man specifically what you want and when you want it, you don’t have a prayer of getting it. Ronan – you’re a Brit. Your countrymen are the world’s experts at plain speak. Why do you have an issue when an American employs it?
Comment by Steve EM — February 14, 2006 @ 11:12 am
I read through this thread last night, and after a blissful night’s sleep caused by a great round of doggie style with my husband spewing his Swedish (glad someone else likes foreign language sometimes!), I’ve had a little disturbing realization: my husband and I are not as unique in our sexuality as I’d imagined. I have known several of the repressed people we’ve talked about on here, and also several of the well-informed, open with their partner type. But while I’m overjoyed that others are enjoying sex as much as we are, I am suprised and a little let down that so many are doing the same things we are. The first comment talks about anal sex. While not many afterwards mention this, I still kind of thought -hoped?- dh and I were special in both enjoying this. Same with oral sex, though I realize that is less and less taboo. I still don’t like him to perform on me, but I REALLY like to do it to him.
Appearently I like the thrill and excitement of being different from others. This is the same reason I drank my way through BYU and have since become a staunch conservative in a blue state.
Comment by anon — February 14, 2006 @ 11:22 am
Haven’t I seen this movie before? Let’s see: FMH starts a thread that brings in fast-moving comments; Rosalynde shows up and makes deliberately overdrawn statements; moth-to-flame DKL is on them like white on rice; chaos ensues; Rosalynde claims to be a bad writer. It’s like watching Entrapment a few weeks after The Thomas Crown Affair, or perhaps vice versa. Details differ, but all the major plot elements are the same.
Given Ronan’s recent pointers about Zero Point Joe (ZPJ), I think it’s time to draw up some rules for an FMH-reading, ZPJ- drinking game.
How’s this for a start:
1. Every time Rosalynde makes an outrageous assertion, everyone takes a drink.
2. Every time Rosalynde claims to be a bad writer, everyone takes two drinks.
3. If Rosalynde replies to you personally (out of the legions who immediately denounce her for her outrageous assertion), you can make your buddy take a drink.
4. If you comment _between_ Rosalynde’s outrageus assertion and Dave’s patented 1-hour-or-less flirty response — a feat that takes real timing — you can make your buddy take two drinks.
5. If you comment within the first 5 _after_ Dave’s flirty response, take two drinks — you were trying for Rule 4, and you didn’t make it.
Hmm. Still needs work, but it’s a start, no?
Comment by KDW — February 14, 2006 @ 11:27 am
To the person asking about how to convince her hubby that a vibrator is a good thing… just get yourself one. You don’t need to convince him at all, since it is for you. Just get a good one, and use it alone.
You are after all, an adult woman.
Comment by Sexy no more — February 14, 2006 @ 11:47 am
“This is the same reason I drank my way through BYU and have since become a staunch conservative in a blue state. ”
Damn! And I thought I was the only Nacle person like that.
Comment by Steve EM — February 14, 2006 @ 12:00 pm
Steve EM, Thanks for the concern. But just to set the record straight, my hubby is very kind, very holy, total straight arrow, not over sexual - kind of like what we might imagine Jesus to be. He also has a will of iron when it comes to this stuff. The whole time we were dating and engaged I kept trying to get him to make out with me while lying on top of each other. (I don’t see anything wrong with that.) But he steadfastly refused.
I’ve brought up the fact that I would like to use a vibrator, and he’s simply said he’s not comfortable with any toys. So….. my hopes of using that will probably always be unfulfilled.
Thanks to everyone else for your comments too.
Comment by anony for now — February 14, 2006 @ 12:01 pm
Steve…. way to make me feel unspecial yet again…
love the drinking game…
Comment by anon — February 14, 2006 @ 12:04 pm
For [edit: goodness] sake, you guys, is nothing sacred? I so do not want to picture your differing positions. For [goodness] sake, just because it’s a blog doesn’t mean you have to spill your total guts all over the place. For [goodness] sake, I am disgusted.
Comment by annegb — February 14, 2006 @ 12:09 pm
Steve EM- Perhaps the *control freak* husband had been sexually molested and was trying to maintain some control in an arena where at one point he had none.
I love this thread. It has my vote for best of the year.
As bishop I had to too frequently council married couples on sexual matters. One couple were talking around what their problem was, when I point blank asked if the wife regularly had orgasms. Turns out after over 20 years of marriage, she never had any. I suggested sex therapy. Which is much less tramatic than having the bishop tell you how to make your wife’s eyes roll back in her head and scream loud enough that the neighbors get embarassed.
Wives and husbands need to realize that there are occasionally sexual drive mismatches. Sometimes we need to find another way to skin the cat. Masturbation of one’s spouse may be called for at one time or another.
My own beloved has to have manual or oral stimulation. My anniversary is coming up and I think I’ll order a vibrator. Good Vibrations Catalogue, huh?
BTW, my wife loves the sexual side-effects that Prozac had on me. It worked better than thinking about tithing settlement to improve stamina.
Comment by LDS Family Services Stake Rep — February 14, 2006 @ 12:19 pm
It’s hilarious that all of you who find this distasteful and disgusting didn’t stop reading after the first post. It’s so predictable! Didn’t you get what this thread was about after the first comment? Something kept you around. Here we are 125 comments into and YOU’RE STILL HERE….. WHY??! To pass judgment? Seriously, there are some of us that don’t think it’s all icky and yucky…. (coarse, harsh, tasteles….whatever). I happen to think there is value in people with shared (some quirky) beliefs coming together in a (mostly) anonymous “safe” place to ask questions and get information that can actually be helpful and enhancing to a happy marriage relationship. Would you please, pretty please, just stop reading if this is not your cup of tea? Thanks.
p.s. Here is an example of a success from this thread…. I’ve never bought edible underwear. I read about it here. I got some as a surprise for my husband to celebrate Valentines tonight, thanks to reading this thread. If you think that’s icky or tasteless, I’m sorry. But I think it’s going to taste great! ; ) Happy Valentines Day everyone!
Comment by another female anon — February 14, 2006 @ 12:44 pm
#127, something like that might indeed be the control freak’s problem. That’s why I said “a man who isn’t turned on by his lover’s sexual aggression has major sexual hang-ups and may need professional help”.
Hard to believe some would seek a Bishops advice about sex. Why on earth would they think he knew more about it than Joe or Jane on the street? I also note you use the word “masturbation” in an odd way, most peopel would call that sex and think of masturbation as a solo activity.
Comment by Steve EM — February 14, 2006 @ 1:30 pm
We keep coming back to get more pointers.
BTW, don’t get the lime jello with carrot shavings edible underwear.
Comment by LDS Family Services Stake Rep — February 14, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
Heh, when I was eleven or twelve I remember looking for my father’s pocket knife in his closet while he was at work. I was finding the most exciting thing, old Marine medals, some artwork he’s done in college, pictures of him in Vietnam. Then I grabbed a package of something that looked like those old fruit roll-ups (fruit leather), that may not even be around. I was a little confused why he’d have snacks in his closet , when I realized it said “Edible Panties” on it.
Most traumatic day of my childhood. The thought that my dad might be eating underwear, and even worse, that my mom might be wearing them!
Comment by jjohnsen — February 14, 2006 @ 1:42 pm
Honestly, the anal sex talk has been the only thing that really made me blush during this thread. I can’t quit wrap my head around people enjoying this, on either side of the act. I thought my wife and I were fairly adventurous, but neither one of us has even thought to bring this one up.
Also, I had the same thoughts you did. There are other Mormons that do these things, I just assumed everyone else was sticking to missionary position while wearing their garments (ok, a little exaggeration).
Comment by janonymous — February 14, 2006 @ 1:47 pm
SEM:
I’m sorry to belabor this, but you don’t get to dodge the issue.
If a woman refuses to do something sexual because she’s a prude, or for whatever reason, is she a “control freak” and using “unrighteous dominion?” She may have issues, but that’s up to she and her spouse to work out together.
Your post doesn’t demonstrate that your position isn’t hypocritical. Obviously, your situation is different, than the original poster’s. You are willing to engage in something your wife enjoys. But the fact remains that you are willing to do it. Reverse the roles: if you enjoyed anal sex, but your wife flatly refused, is she being a control freak?
My issue is your rush to judgment that someone who’s spouse describes them as a prude, and doesn’t want to bring toys into the marital relationship is a “control freak” and exhibiting “unrighteous dominion.” It really does sound defensive on your part. It’s like you have issues with authority. No?
Comment by Polly — February 14, 2006 @ 2:37 pm
I don’t think this is a good idea. How would she feel if her husband started masturbating in his office and told her to deal with it. I think the wrong approach is to try to force him to accept it. I’d try taking it slow, introducing more foreplay or touching nto the mix. Try to make him comfortable while showing him how he can help you. Then maybe move onto the toys.
Comment by jjohnsen — February 14, 2006 @ 2:47 pm
Polly,
Yes, I’m certainly candid and iconoclastic and with that comes little use for authority, especially bogus authority. If you think it’s acceptable for anony for now to feel she needs hubby’s permission to experiment with toys, let’s just agree to disagree. I think it’s a sign of a very unhealthy relationship and unrighteous dominion on his part for her to feel so constrained.
Comment by Steve EM — February 14, 2006 @ 3:45 pm
SEM:
Agreed.
SEM:
I thought that once, also. I nearly lost all that brought me joy because of where that thought leads. Just to let you know where I’m coming from.
I personally don’t think it is “constraining” to be able to decline doing something he’s not comfortable with. But if you can maintain equilibrium in your marriage with this attitude, who’s to stop you. I would just caution you against suggesting it to others. It can be like poison to weak relationships. This book describes how this attitude can lead to more destructive behaviors.
Comment by Polly — February 14, 2006 @ 4:02 pm
Oh, Rosalynde. I must be the very bad writer indeed if you misunderstood me as saying that you were sexually repressed. I couldn’t possibly know that from your comment. I said your comment itself was repressive (not repressed). There’s a very big difference.
I think that the discussion here is clearly helpful for many women, even if it’s merely a source of book recommendations. I don’t see how it is constructive to assert that sex “is inherently bad for women.” This is what you’ve said, and you haven’t backed down from it. Sex is not inherently bad for women, but your comment and your attitude are. At least for those women participating in this thread.
You say: “The simple truth is that the costs and benefits of sex are distributed unequally between the sexes: the costs are enormous for women and the benefits much smaller, while the costs are nearly negligible for men and the benefits very, uh, compelling.”
The disparity you speak of simply does not exist for the men and women discussing sex in this forum. The costs are not enormous for women, and the costs are not nearly negligible for the men in this forum. This thread was not about relationships or sex in “society at large.” I say in my original comment that I am not speaking about society at large. I am speaking about this forum because this forum is where you chose to make your comment. I think in this forum your comment is bad for women.
You say: “I’ve said two or three times now that those measures that will minimize sexual costs and maximize benefits for women are all fine by meand that includes *good* information, the wonders of consumer sex technology, and, more than anything, a womans robust sense of self-confidence, self-possession, and self-efficacy.”
Am I supposed to disagree with this? This is pretty commonplace, and it’s little more than an aside in your original comment. I’m surprised that this thread seems to fail your test for good information. It appears to me that many people on this forum are doing just what the good Dr. Welch ordered.
This is a thread where many have made it clear they are shy about asking questions and that they feel tentative and self conscious. Your comment is not just attention grabbing, it is unfortunate. It makes the self conscious feel even more so. So I don’t think that I misread you or that I take your diploma far more seriously than you do. Your protestations aside, you have a pretty good idea that people listen to what you say. I stand by what I said, I think your comment is bad for women who are trying to improve their lives by participating on this thread.
My answers to your questions are:
1. They are not inherently linked. The way a society speaks about sex is important. Our society is immoral in its tone, and therefore destructive, in my view. It is conceivable that a society could be open without being immoral, and vice versa.
2. In a statistically significant way? I don’t know. That is an empirical question to be answered by an empirical study. Why don’t you start one and become the Share Hite of the bloggernacle?
Comment by skl — February 14, 2006 @ 4:33 pm
skl,
i agree that the issues rosalynde brings up may be more applicable by nature to “society at large” rather than this specific post. however, the explicit nature of some of the posts i feel warranted a step back and some consideration of the implications beyond just learning some good tips. i am surprised that some feel her comment are repressive. i feel like in many ways they are beneficial to women if only in creating awareness to the broader issues involved.
Comment by ala — February 14, 2006 @ 5:14 pm
If there’s anybody left willing to answer a question–every time my husband gives me oral sex (which I love) I always end up with a bladder infection, no matter how careful we are and how soon I wash afterward. That’s led to none for me because I can’t stand the infections. So, have you got a solution? I wait for your wisdom.
Comment by wants advice — February 14, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
wants advice, if you wash beforehand and urinate immediately afterward and still have infections, talk to your physician about their opinion on using Macrobid (nitrofurantoin) or other urinary tract antibiotic prophylactically (which might only be one-two doses instead of seven days). Good luck.
Comment by Steve EM — February 14, 2006 @ 5:34 pm
Apparently admin can’t handle a married Jesus and deleted my comment.
Comment by Steve EM — February 14, 2006 @ 5:38 pm
The way to even the balance of costs and benefits between men and women on the subject of sex is for women to learn to have multiple orgasms. Trust me, you’ll never think men have it better again; in fact, my husband is actually a bit jealous. After one of those I feel almost high on the endorphins, I even laugh sometimes from feeling so good.
Comment by AnonKJ — February 14, 2006 @ 5:52 pm
I wanted to post a comment here, and started reading through the comments first, but they’re too explicit for me to read while I’m at work, so I’m not sure if I’m repeating something that’s been said before.
I think we need to talk much more about sex than we do, and more explicitly than we do.
When I got married (at 18), I was completely inexperienced about sex - which of course is not a bad thing. However, because of this tendency we have in the church to not talk explicitly about our sex lives, I didn’t realize for nearly 20 years that my husband was not *normal* about sex. When I would object to things he wanted to do, he convinced me over and over again that I was the one with hang-ups, or a lack of libido, or whatever. I had no reference points, so I had no reason not to believe him. And of course, in only speaking in very vague generalities, I had no reason to think that all men weren’t just like him.
It wasn’t until things went very very wrong in our family (we’re now divorced, he’s been excommunicated and is on his 3rd marriage in 6 years) that I realized that he was sick and that things were not normal and never had been between us.
If I’d had someone I could talk to explicitly about what was happening in our bedroom, I would have known what was up years before. I would have insisted that he get help, possibly saving my marriage, keeping my family together, and allowing him to work things out before he lost his membership in the church.
Although I am single now, I talk openly about my experiences with those I am close to, especially my daughters. It’s too important a topic to take chances with.
Comment by Fiona — February 14, 2006 @ 5:58 pm
I am an adult convert to the church, but was sexually abused by my boyfriend as a teen while being told HE was the normal one and that I was just “repressed because of “those uptight Mormon friends you hang out with.” My non-member parents’ idea of sex ed was to hand us a pamphlet explaining the facts, then employing an attitude of “don’t ask/don’t tell” where our personal lives were concerned. I agree with Fiona, as a mother of three little girls of my own, we have to talk about these things openly now or watch our loved ones suffer the consequences later.
Comment by Anon too — February 14, 2006 @ 6:41 pm
I’m very prone to UTIs and a nurse earned my eternal gratitude with her suggestion: cranberry pills. You can get them at the drugstore, usually in 300 or 500 mg doses. I take a couple right after sex, and a couple more before every meal for the next 24 hours or so. I haven’t had a UTI in about 3 years, which is so great; in our first year of marriage I had one *every single month.*
Comment by anon this time — February 14, 2006 @ 8:09 pm
Uh people …
You realize this blog is public right?
Seriously, is there really that big a value in discussing things this explicitly here (just skimming a few of the posts here has told me more than I want to know).
I know that all bloggers have a bit of exhibitionist in em, but …
Were’s the line here? Is it OK to discuss anything you want here, no matter how graphic? If this kind of thing becomes more prevalent, I can say that I for one, will quickly lose interest in participating here.
I don’t come here to lose my lunch thanks.
Comment by Seth R. — February 14, 2006 @ 8:37 pm
I agree with Seth. Time to stop talking about it. Why don’t y’all go DO something about it on this fine fourteenth of Febuary.
Comment by Jack — February 14, 2006 @ 8:55 pm
Unfortunately Jack,
Looking through this discussion has kinda killed the mood for me at the moment. I’m sure I’ll recover though.
Comment by Seth R. — February 14, 2006 @ 9:08 pm
Wants Advice,
Use a dental dam. It’s a thin sheet of latex that you lay over your…uh…area and it serves as a barrier.
The unfortunate aspect of the dental dam is that you have to buy it in an adult shop. Frankly, a sheet of saran wrap might work just as well. Obviously you need gravity to use a dental dam…not good for all positions.
Not as sexy as skin on skin, but then UTIs aren’t sexy either.
Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — February 14, 2006 @ 9:26 pm
RE: UTIs. Maybe brush first. I second the urinating afterwards. And it’s good to know about the cranberry pills. I’d heard about drinking cranberry juice, but concentrated pills sound good too. I’ve heard that dental dams (same as a female condom?) dull the woman’s sensitivity, so ‘twould seem counterproductive if the reason you’re going oral is to increase her pleasure. But, hey, I’ve never tried it. It could work.
And sort of related to that, if the woman’s skin is raw afterwards, a little bit of the Sensua Organics lube linked above or some real aloe vera gel (not your alcohol, water, and a little bit of aloe thrown in) works great.
Ros makes some good points–the unbalanced burden to benefit ratio of sex for women is certainly valid (though I think it can be well-mitigated in most cases, I think) and it’s true it wouldn’t be helpful if more open sex talk increased the women’s burden or became another weapon in the man’s arsenal of reasons why his wife should do his pleasure. If. I think it can happen, but it can happen in societies that are either repressive, quiet, open, or flaunting in their attitudes toward sex. It can happen just because there’s such a thing as a sex drive. The other essential element that makes the openness work is respect, mutual and sincere respect. And I think most, possibly all, commenters here have shown that they have that respect, however they express it and prefer it expressed (or not). I’m in favor of respectful openness that lets women gain the information and confidence they need to have satisfying sexual experiences. And really, that happens best when they have open, respectful partners. I am lucky to have just such a partner.
I realize also that not everybody has the same level of comfort in talking about things. That’s okay with me, though obviously I’d like to have the range shifted in favor of providing women (like the friend I described) the information and moral support they need to be satisfied. And as others have pointed out, if you’re uncomfortable with the level of detail, you had fair warning in the initial post. You don’t have to read it. I for one have found it an interesting, healthy (yes, healthy) and mostly positive thread. I suspect that, naysayers to the contrary, many of the commenters are practicing what they’ve preached and maybe trying a few new things. I hope so.
And if you’re wondering what I’m doing commenting this late on this date–we had our Valentine’s day yesterday.
Who says I’m a slave to the pagan calendar?
Comment by Artemis — February 14, 2006 @ 9:59 pm
I remember coming home from college my freshman year and getting together with all my high school friends. They told me all about the safe sex presentations and public health info that was all over the campus, and required during orientation that fall. I felt not just a bit out of it, but was relieved I didn’t live through the coming home to a sign on the dorm room door not to come in thing, or the roommate having sex in the bed on the other side of the room thing. I wondered what a dental dam was (somehow I figured it was some thing you put -in- your mouth, so thanks to Becky for filling me in (15 years later!)
Comment by claire — February 14, 2006 @ 10:08 pm
I just want to thank Artemis for this post. I don’t understand why some people are so down on it. It has been a safe, comfortable place for people to ask their questions about sex where they know they will recieve supportive answers. What’s more, they know the people answering them share at least most of their values about sex. I have found the answers, book and website recommendations to be wonderful resources. I’m glad I’ve been here for the discussion. Three cheers for Artemis, who has provided us with such a corageous, invaluable post.
Comment by harpingheather — February 14, 2006 @ 10:16 pm
as to rosylande’s argument, my belief is that the sexualization of the female has been pretty constant over time; it just changes its guise. given the choice between both repression and sexualization, and sexualization with less repression, I’ll take the latter.
as to the rest, i applaud the openness and hope this discussion leads to greater intimacy and love (real).
Comment by b. bowen — February 14, 2006 @ 10:46 pm
I meant to put in that the pills are great because they give you huge amounts of cranberry goodness without all the sugar in regular juice. I’m not sure anyone could drink that much cranberry, esp. the sugarless kind which is so hard to drink. I think of them as cranberry bombs!
Comment by anon this time — February 15, 2006 @ 12:00 am
Chlorhexidine oral rinse that you get from your dentist kills bunches of bacteria; you could have your hubby use that. Or, if you want something easier, Listerine does a pretty dang good job of kiiling bacteria, but its results are more temporary.
Comment by Laura — February 15, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
Seth,
You should have seen the deleted comments. Although, I still don’t get why admin couldn’t handle a married Jesus?
Comment by Steve EM — February 15, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
ok Steve EM - you obviously want the attention - you know your comment was NOT just about a ‘married’ Jesus, but quite inappropriate. I felt no qualms in personally deleting it.
Comment by Rebecca — February 15, 2006 @ 1:37 pm
Well Rebecca, it’s your site and you’re free to do as you see fit, but looking at what’s been left up here, I could only think the married Jesus part is what someone felt was out of bounds. I guess it was the church going overboard on the LofC opinion then? Anyway, I respect your judgment in policing your site.
Comment by Steve EM — February 15, 2006 @ 2:28 pm
I think it was calling Jesus a “horndog” that may have done the trick, Steve, although I’m just guessing at Rebecca’s intentions.
Comment by Ronan — February 15, 2006 @ 3:02 pm
Ronan,
So someone caught the deleted comment. For the record, you’re referring to a qualified statement I made. I didn’t say anything declarative to that effect. Maybe I’ll tone it down and repost.
Comment by Steve EM — February 15, 2006 @ 3:54 pm
OK, here’s a toned down attempt:
anony for now, thanks for the addition info. Your hubby sounds like a nice guy. From what you’ve said, just get the toy(s), start using them (preferably with him) and let him deal with it. There is no reason for you to take a back seat in the relationship accommodating his hang-ups.
To the guy who hinted I’m a hypocrite, I’ll give a personal example of accommodation I posted previously over at Open Forum: “…………I’m uncomfortable w/ anal, particularly because my wife wants it w/o a condom, but I participate because my wife says it gives her a very special orgasm. For background, this is something that developed several years into our marriage, in case anyone was thinking “didn’t he know this when he married her?”. Fortunately she doesn’t ask for it often. Sometimes I’m so anxious about it that I fake my pleasure just to induce her pleasure and get it over with . I don’t tell her how I feel because it seems very special to her, and I don’t want to hurt her feelings. She does understand why I wash and urinate immediately afterwards. In any event, most of our sex is incredibly pleasurable, so putting up with that one thing is pretty minor in the big picture.”
BTW, Jesus probably enjoyed sex from his early teens in an arranged marriage. Unlike more orthodox Christians, I don’t see how Jesus gets a pass on the “replenish and multiply” commandment. And the Pharisees would have had a field day with a single Jesus (just how many single healthy thirty-something orthodox Jews do you know?). This brings up a problem with the Mormon overemphasis on the LofC (a backlash to polygamy, IMHO). We take a biblical standard from a time when sex started at puberty within arranged marriages and attempt to enforce it today when people typical marry in their twenties out of love. No surprise to me that some of our people end up with major hang-ups as a result. When I mentioned earlier that Mormon women are generally very good at it, obviously that was a rebellious sampling and, given many of the comments here, perhaps not typical.
Comment by Steve EM — February 15, 2006 @ 4:26 pm
ok there is no way Im gonna read this whole things, I kinda glossed over…my thoughts on why I personally as a women do not enjoy sex (my husband and I rarely have it now and it sucks) We’ve been married over 4 years
1) Self esteem - if I dont feel hot I have trouble geting turned on.
2) PAIN - we are mismatched sizes and it always hurts. ALso, I get UTI pretty much every time and its miserable.
3) No sex drive at all, used to think it was the BC but went off it and no improvement. There is usually like once a year when libido is great for like a week but other thatn that its horrilble.
Comment by Anon — February 15, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
This is my first visit to this site, and am I glad I finally checked it out! I’ve been married for 9 years and for the last 6 (since the birth of our first kid) I have HATED sex with a passion. Part of it was mental, part of it was a side-effect from the mental meds, part of it is being grossly overweight with a stick of a husband, and part of it is I’m just too damn tired after taking care of three VERY ACTIVE boys all day. The comments that have been made for this post have been the best education I’ve recieved yet. I already feel better about finally giving some to my extremely patient husband. Double thanks to the person that gave the link for Book 22!
Comment by Eternally Grateful — February 15, 2006 @ 4:53 pm
I officially want to tell all the people who are disgusted by this thread to stop reading it. It seems like common sense to me, but since you keep popping in to tell us how disgusting and bad we are I’m just letting you know that we’ve heard you, we disagree, now go do something you do enjoy and leave us to an experience that we’re finding educational and useful.
That is all.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 15, 2006 @ 4:56 pm
The sex drive thing I can’t think of a fix, everyone has this issue in some way.
As far as pain goes, my wife’s doctor told her this was pretty common, some women are just tiny. We have to take things pretty slow, she needs to be warmed up before any penetration. Lots of outside stimulation for her before we begin, and usually a little lubricant (some of the sites mentioned above have some great choices). Then we start things out really slow, no quick pushing or anything. After a few minutes we can get to pretty much any position without her being uncomfortable. It’s mostly helping her relax. If you’ve already tried those things, I’m sorry. Also keep in mind that most women, and all men, can have an orgasm and enjoy each other’s bodies without actual vaginal penetration.
The sex drive is another thing I don’t have a alot to offer. Relaxation is another big one, which I know is hard for kids. Another thing my wife says helps her is thinking about it often and early. If she feels anything at all during the day, she’ll focus on that. Then she’ll think about past times she’s had a great time, or times I’ve done something romantic(knowing this has helped encourage me to try to be more romantic). Then we might lay in bed lay in bed watching a movie, just touching each other a little bit. This helps too with the relaxing thing to avoid the pain.
Again, good luck, you sound miserable in the sex department, I feel for you and your husband. Our first 6 months was very similar to what you’ve described.
Comment by anonymouse husband — February 15, 2006 @ 5:59 pm
Ooops, that first sentence should read The self esteem thing I can’t think of a fix, everyone has this issue in some way.
Comment by anonymouse husband — February 15, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
To #163… pain is a libido killer. Why on earth would you even want to do it if it is going to hurt? You may want to get checked for endo, that is the cause of our problems.
To all else… Husbands, us wives appreciate it when you take care of yourselves, and stay in shape, just as much as you like it when we do! If your sex life is lacking and you are fat, that might be part of the cause. This myth that women aren’t visual is just plain untrue. We may not be as visual as you men, but it still matters. And, as cheesy as it is, sex does begin in the kitchen! Help your woman out for petes sake.
Comment by Sexy no more — February 15, 2006 @ 6:01 pm
I’ve always really liked sex, even before I ever had any, but this didn’t stop me from having some serious sex issues.
I was born and raised in a devout LDS home, but the sex emphasis was pretty healthy, as in, sex is good but save it for marriage, and honestly, the idea of it never disgusted me. And when I grew up I loved kissing. It was always the boys I dated that kept me in line rather than the reverse, because I really liked kissing (and I always dated good boys). I was a virgin and so was my husband when we married. I think we both had/have open and healthy attitudes about sex, and fairly reliable ideas about what was going to happen.
And then we got married and had sex and I liked sex, however, I didn’t orgasm. It was a little disappointing, but I’d read enough to know that it happened that way for a lot of women and I figured that it would take some learning for us to figure it out. We were both willing to put in the work.
But it never happened. Never. This went on for years.
We started off hesitantly, which is okay, first we tried to figure it out on our own. Then we read some sex books, but most of the assumptions those books made didn’t apply to us. I didn’t have problems with my body or with letting go or any serious religious/social hang-ups. My husband was very attentive and willing to listen and to please. We had a good relationship outside the bedroom. We were willing to try, you know, whatever. I wasn’t so stressed out about it that I was losing the mood. I wanted orgasms, but I still liked sex, so I figured it would work out, or not, I was just going to enjoy. My husband probably cared more that I did. This was a challenge he was going to conquer.
But even once we’d worked up to direct oral and manual stimulation, I liked it, a lot, but it never built up to anything. (incidentally we were pretty naive, it took up quite a long time to figure out where the clitoris was).
This went on for many years. I think we had a lot of great sex in those years, we enjoyed each other, we had fun, I never stopped liking sex, or resenting it because I wasn’t getting “fulfilled. ” I never stopped wanting to jump my husbands bones pretty much any time I could talk him into it. Sure, I wanted to figure it out, but I wasn’t going to ruin a good thing for it.
And while this was all happening, I started having this little theory that the female orgasm was all a big myth. I didn’t really believe it, but lurking in the back of my mind, I couldn’t shake the sneaking suspicion that it was an Emperor’s New Clothes thing. Little death and worlds crashing and throbbing burning heat? Whatever.
After four or five years, we did eventually decide to buy a vibrator because all the books said this was a good idea. I liked it, but nothing much happened. I figured we’d hit a dead end. It was disappointing.
This was all changed one day by an Oral B Sonic Care toothbrush. I don’t remember if it was his idea or mine. But we tried it and Whoa, that was something.
It didn’t just sorta shimmy like a vibrator, it pulsed in violent powerful little bursts. It changed everything. I still didn’t figure it out for a long time, but we worked on it for a while and things started to build, and I was starting to see that there was a whole new world of possibilities. We got on the internet and tracked down a vibrator that worked on the same principles as this toothbrush, the only vibrator ever endorsed by Dr. Ruth, the Eroscillator. It’s and expensive sex toy, but it’s the best money we’ve ever spent.
Even with this expensive help it took us a while to figure it all out. One thing I eventually learned is that I HAD been having little tiny bitty orgasms all this time. They weren’t any of the burning gloriously world crashing things, in fact there wasn’t much sensation to them at all, just, a bit of . . . release. But once I figured that out, and combined it with the wild crazy burning glorious sensation-soaked world of the eroscillator, I was finally having orgasms. Really intense mind-bending orgasms.
But even then, this wasn’t a magic solution to the world of sex. We’ve gone through a lot of phases since then. It took me years to learn how to have an orgasms without help, and I have learned, I think for me it’s a matter of knowing the destination, and me learning how to hold my uterus and my husband learning how to stimulate my clitoris and vagina and breasts in the right ways and the right times.
And there are still times when I don’t find it, either it’s not worth the effort at the moment, or I don’t have the energy, or I just have a different goal. And that’s okay. It’s about the journey. Sometimes they’re mind-blowing and I think the heat is going to melt me, sometimes they’re just a little tiny release.
And we’ve gone through phases where either one or the other of us just wasn’t interested because of hormone and/or health issues. I especially lost interest for (fairly) brief periods post-partum. Although I tried to hide this from my husband because I was afraid he would think it was something personal toward him, but I think he couldn’t help but notice. And the sex suffered.
But I can honestly say, with all the ups and downs, after a relatively long marriage, and now that our bodies aren’t young and nubile any longer, we are having the best sex of our lives. It took a long time, but we’ve really figured it out.
I’m sure we’ll go through low spells again. I think this is natural. But I do worry about the people who don’t want or like sex for long periods of time. I don’t think it has to be this way. I think there are lots of physical and emotional things that can make sex suffer, But when two people care about each other, almost all problems can be figured out or worked around, with some time and effort and an open mind. There are lots of new and exciting sensations and feelings to be discovered and explored. (If there are deeper problems with the relationships, that’s a whole different issue).
I mean, even if you are a woman who orgasms fairly easily, some toys, like the one I mentioned might open up a whole new world of intensity, and that’s something worth experiencing. In just the last few months, my husband and I have discovered some techniques that I would never have thought would really be pleasurable, but wow. I don’t know if this has been mentioned before on this thread, but pain, just quick little bites in sensitive places at the right moments, and wow.
I guess my point is, though, that I personally would never, never have learned to orgasm without a lot of work, and some kinky experimentation, and I probably would never have learned without sex toys. I guess if a person feels really uncomfortable with them that’s a choice they have to make, but if that means that you or your partner will never learn the range of sensations possible, the intensity of pleasure our precious bodies are capable of providing us, then I think that’s really unfortunate.
And my other point is that we all have our ups and downs, and sex is going to be one of those cycles of life. But we can learn a lot, and wherever you start out, things can improve. Especially over time. In fact things can get freaking fantastic.
Comment by youdonwannaknow — February 15, 2006 @ 6:46 pm
This looks like a reasonable place (since I’m in agreement with the general trend) to venture a question–tangentially related–if anyone is still checking in.
Does anyone have a suggestion for teaching a young (3yo) daughter that masturbation isn’t appropriate? I don’t want to tell her, “No, don’t do that; that’s wrong,” but I also don’t want to tell her, “That’s okay, but we do that in private,” (as most of the parenting sites recommend). She seems a little young for a ‘wait until you’re married’ discussion.
Comment by Euphrasie — February 15, 2006 @ 7:36 pm
Ouch. Sorry to hear about that. Here are my thoughts: have you asked a doctor about the pain? It’s possible that you may have vaginismus or something. If a mismatch is the entire problem, then a lot of that can be overcome by making sure that you’re relaxed, well-lubricated and turned on first, and by keeping in practice. Giving birth would probably take care of it as well. (I was kind of looking forward to that, since my husband is also on the large side, but no, I’ve had to have c-sections. Avoid that if possible.)
And I’m going to push the cranberry pills again (see post 146), because they really are what solved this problem for me. I said that I got a UTI every month our first year of marriage; well, it was in fact every time we had sex. I had this lovely cycle where we could have sex once, I would get a UTI (10 days of antibiotics), which would cause a yeast infection (7 days of cream), and then I’d get my period (8 days). Then we could have sex again and start over. Whee! But you know what, we solved it, and things got so much better, and have kept on getting better.
I really, really hope that you can work on your self-esteem issues and on the other problems. Seriously, you can go to a doctor and to a sex therapist, and it’s not hopeless, and there are things you can do. I’m a bit worried about how well your marriage is standing up to this stress, and I hope you’ll work on it.
Comment by anon this time — February 15, 2006 @ 10:01 pm
Re persistent low libido - get your hormone levels checked. Low testosterone can cause a reduced libido.
Comment by Ann — February 15, 2006 @ 10:18 pm
Here’s a question - Artemis I checked out your link for sensua organic - I am looking for a good lubrication that won’t cause any type of yeast infection (I’m prone). I don’t like the typical KY warming since the warming seems like the precurser to infection burning that sends fear signals to my brain. Is the sensua that great really? Is there any other brand people would recommend highly that you can get from the local drugstore?
Comment by nonamer — February 16, 2006 @ 12:00 am
#170 you are right in your assumption that giving birth can really help sex be more comfortable. I didn’t realize we were mismatched, I just thought sex hurt. Both my husband and I were pleasantly surprised by the change after the birth of our first baby. I’m sorry about the c-sections, I know they are miserable.
Comment by Anon As Well — February 16, 2006 @ 12:42 am
Euphrasie,
After much thought and prayer and consideration, I have come to the conclusion that I simply disagree with the church’s stance on masterbation. I’m not advocating you come to the same conclusion, that is between you and the Lord and your daughter. But the Church has changed its stance on enough things over the years that I’ve come to the conclusion that I have to trust my own judgment and my own beliefs. And this is one of those places where I simply think (and I could be wrong) that we are practicing left-over vestiges of our grandparent’s Victorian era (and older) misguided fear of sex. You’re free to disregard this, but I think it’s been fairly conclusivly shown that masterbation is a healthy normal human function, There is no evidence of harm. Not on future relationships, or moral judgement, or sexual function. Masterbation doesn’t make people sex obssessed, it doen’t make them selfish lovers, it doesn’t make them grow hairy palms or go blind. I’m not saying it can’t be misused, but Everything can be misused.
I am personally going with the mainstream medical advice and advising my children to keep their privates private, and then lettting them have privacy.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 16, 2006 @ 5:00 am
How’s that for opening a can of worms?
And please feel free to disagree with me . . . publically even. . .
Comment by fMhLisa — February 16, 2006 @ 5:02 am
nonamer #172,
the warming is a result of more blood being drawn to the area, a good thing since it helps you acheive orgasm. The Sensua lube is not one of those ‘this will revolutionize your sex life products’, though it’s along those lines. I find that it does make orgasm easier. I also prefer it to others because it’s aloe vera based and has organic ingredients. Many of the others are based on petroleum jelly, which is not so good for your skin and can irritate sensitive skin as well as give an unneeded shove to infections for those already prone to them (it doesn’t let the skin breathe). There are products that can really really intensify your orgasm–or make things come a lot quicker, depending on your goal–but they’re not technically lubes. Somewhat different purpose and medium. Drugstore.com brings up these; and I know there are herbal ones out there as well (check your local natural foods or health store). You’ll probably want to check the ingredients yourself, especially if you have sensitive skin.
Comment by Artemis — February 16, 2006 @ 7:27 am
I think that if a three year old does something (masturbate) and we are taught that young children are not accountable, and are not influenced by satan (thats correct right?) than her actions would have to be considered normal and innocent. I mean she isnt acting out of wickedness, is she?
I’m with Lisa on this one. Tell her to do it in private. Whatever you do dont tell her its “bad”. Man… that would just perpetuating the repression of female sensuality at such a young age, and that would be a bummer.
Comment by state the obvious girl — February 16, 2006 @ 8:07 am
Three, thirty three, sixty-three–isn’t not wrong, period! And yhet the church has damaged countless people by insisting it’s wrong. Even President Kimball said masturbation was a cause of homosexuality!
In one of my old singles wards (average age 30) the bishop told the membership point black that “if (they) masturbate, you need to come to me and talk about it.”/confess. It’s no wonder there are so many messed up singles in the church and so many marrieds who are clueless.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 16, 2006 @ 8:25 am
fhmLisa,
You may want to be careful condoning masterbation with an adolescent boy. Pornography and masterbation go hand in hand. This may not be how you view it as a woman, but it could be a slippery slope for a young man.
Comment by anon male — February 16, 2006 @ 10:24 am
fmhLisa, I concur with your comment, but would add that, IMHO, accept for maybe a few holdout apostles, the church has moved on from that nonsense. I’ve lived in a few places and have two grown children and three still at home. None of them have been asked about self pleasure by any Bishop, SP or MP. My wife and I keep a pulse on this because both of us grew up in the CofJCofLDS of bishops obsessed with masturbation and have made sure our kids know that is a normal, healthy and private behavior and not an appropriate subject for church leaders to inquire about.
Comment by Steve EM — February 16, 2006 @ 11:21 am
But the Church deson’t just rail against masturbation for teens–it condemns it for everyone except when together as married couple. It condemns singles and gays–no matter what their maturity level–to no sexual expression whatsoever. And then people wonder why there is so much sexual dysfunction among church members.
IMO the church should stay out of the bedrooms of EVERY adult–married, single, gay, straight. It’s none of their business, especially when solo.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 16, 2006 @ 11:33 am
Pornography and masterbation go hand in hand.
snort.
But seriously, while it may be true that pornography use increases masterbation, I don’t know of any credible evidence that the opposite is true. I abhor pornography, as a feminist, as a woman, as a Mormon, but I honestly don’t think there is a connection. People were masterbating long before there were sex images carved on cave walls.
And in general I think slippery slope arguments are a slippery slope to silliness.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 16, 2006 @ 11:46 am
#176 - Lisa, I don’t want to disagree with you. In fact I’d very much like to agree with you. But I can’t. This isn’t one of those issues where those we sustain as prophets, seers, and revelators have been silent or where there were only a couple of offhand remarks made many years ago. We have been told many times in just the last few years that masturbation is wrong.
As I said, I don’t want to disagree with you. I very much wish I believed as you do. Frankly, I have a pretty high sex drive and my husband is away a lot. Masturbating would feel good and would relieve some stress. So I’m not trying to challenge your position as much I’m seeking to understand how you reconcile your beliefs with what seems to me to be a clearly settled issue (as opposed to many of the other things discussed in this thread). I hope you understand where I’m coming from and appreciate that I’m not trying to be argumentative or critical.
Comment by yet another anon — February 16, 2006 @ 11:49 am
yet another anon,
You are of course free to follow the dictates of your own conscious. In fact I encourage you to do so.
How do I reconcile? I don’t really. I’ve pretty much given up on the whole notion of reconciling, it’s not logical it’s belief. Life just doesn’t have a bunch of neat-fitting puzzle pieces that all slide together perfectly if only you can see the big picture. There is no formula in which if you stick all the right numbers in you will find a solution to everything.
I don’t reconcile the historicity of the BOM, I don’t reconcile poligamy, I don’t reconcile blacks and the priesthood, I don’t reconcile a lying Joseph Smith and I don’t reconcile my disagreement over masterbation.
I follow my conscious, I listen to the spirit, but I don’t reconcile.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 16, 2006 @ 12:08 pm
Thanks for the explanation, Lisa. I guess my own conscience and perceptions of the whisperings of the spirit won’t let me go where you’ve gone, much as I would like to. But I appreciate your explanation.
Comment by yet another anon — February 16, 2006 @ 12:15 pm
I have to agree with Lisa here. If men(or woman) don’t have access to pornagraphy, does anyone really believe masturbation will completely stop? I imagine the amount someone might masturbate could change, but the imagination combined with hormones is enough for anyone.
Comment by jjohnsen — February 16, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
My wife got the same feeling for KY, the warming reminded her of infectious burning. We tried one of these in the Pina Colada flavor, and it was much more comfortable for her. Plus they are water based with aloe, so they don’t feel as greasy as KY.
Comment by jjohnsen — February 16, 2006 @ 1:21 pm
Thanks Artemis and jjohnson! I’m learning that I have a lot of avenues to explore - this thread is great, plain and simple!!!
Comment by nonamer — February 16, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
fMhLisa, re: masturbation
Thank you for being brave enough to say that. I am whole hearted agreement, and no, I cannot reconcile it either, but I know for my family, it is the right path. I refuse to teach my children that there is anything wrong with their bodies- especially at three. We simply have explained that there are times when you should be private about your body.
And I share you abhorance for pornography, and do not see the link going the other way, especially not with my small children who know nothing of illictness, but are just inocently figuring out their little bodies.
Comment by tracy m — February 16, 2006 @ 2:34 pm
Euphrasie, for a three year old body exploration is not a sin, but if you want to discourage it, you can do so in a positive way by teaching your kids that we respect our bodies and as part of that respect we don’t want to be indiscriminately touching them all the time. Make sure you talk about good touch — for cleaning, medical care, and whatever other information you feel your kids are ready to handle.
Then, don’t get too discouraged when it doesn’t work! This is a phase and will taper off naturally. The more you dwell on it the longer it will go on!
I just wanted to give you an answer in case you are not ready to go where some others here have gone in regards to masturbation being okay or not.
Comment by Ana — February 16, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
I think it’s been fairly conclusivly shown that masterbation is a healthy normal human function, There is no evidence of harm. Not on future relationships, or moral judgement, or sexual function. Masterbation doesn’t make people sex obssessed, it doen’t make them selfish lovers,
Here I go, swimming against the current.
I don’t know where the scientists are getting their “no evidence of harm” or even what criteria they were using in their studies. In my experience, masturbation has done extreme harm. My husband, who is a kind, caring, thoughtful man in all other respects, is having to unlearn all his sexual habits because of masterbation. It’s been hard for him not to find actual intercourse a disappointment because it takes so much more time and effort, whereas before all he needed was vaseline and five minutes.
The danger to the position of “it’s natural honey but that’s somethine we do in private” is that you’re teaching your kids that masterbation doesn’t count as sex. It does. Any deliberate stimulation of the sexual organs for pleasure is a sexual act.
Masterbation is bad for your sexual development. I don’t care what the lab-coats are saying, they’re not looking at it from the right angle. Sex should be between two bpeople and about what turns EACH OTHER on. Masturbation — of the kind at issue here — is a solo activity that when pursued, trains you to expect sex to be something it isn’t nor should be. Sex is such a learned activity for humans. That’s why it sould be learned between a husband and wife. You can’t eat junk food in your youth and expect to grow in to a fit, healthy adult. Masturbation is the junk food of sex. You encourage your kids to be healthy at all times, why should this be any different?
None of this is to say that that concerned monther should be making her child feel dirty or guilty for what she’s doing. She’s too young to understand her actions. She’s also too young to understand explanations. You just distract her. Offer to read a book or do some other activity together, or remind her that she’s supposed to be cleaing up her toys. At that age, just don’t make an issue of it.
Comment by Eh? Nony Mouse — February 16, 2006 @ 5:31 pm
fmhLisa,
Surely you’d agree, then, that the Church has that whole “wait unitl you’re married” thing backwards too. I mean, we have sex drives before we get married, and every study out there says that the physical act of sex is physically normal and healthy. We’d be nuts to ever hold back, really, because it’s just a body function, and body function is normal. And in the end, isn’t our sex before marriage prohibition just a hold-over belief from those repressed Puritans? I mean, Judah had sex with a hooker outside of marriage and didn’t get in trouble, right?
Comment by jimbob — February 16, 2006 @ 6:08 pm
jimbob–I think we already rejected the ’slippery slope’ argument. The hyperbole isn’t going to make your case.
Comment by ken — February 16, 2006 @ 6:28 pm
fmhLisa–I like the idea of depending on DH for sexual pleasure in our marriage, and vice versa, but I also abhor the paranoa surrounding masterbation. Especially for children. My own mother was such an unbelievable prude, and scared me so badly when I was little, that I once spent about 6 months repenting for seeing naked women in the pool dressing room. And I’m a straight girl! I thought nakedness was so sinful that my mere viewing of some woman’s breasts would send me straight to hell. When I was REALLY little, and she gave the whole “don’t touch yourself” lecture, it was with enough vitriol and disgust that I actually feared I would commit sin if I wiped after peeing!!! Just what everyone wants: a 3 year-old who smells of urine.
I think that like most sexual forays, masturbation can harm a marriage if practiced innappropriately–for instance, if someone chooses to masterbate RATHER than ever initiate sexual contact with a spouse, either to alienate/punish that spouse or out of a fear of appearing vulnerable. My “sex strengthens marriage” response to Rosalynde would have to stress that while I think orgasms are great for everyone (and women can have lots–it doesn’t level the male/female playing field entirely, but it is at least ONE area where women are lucker than men), I’m not sure that the actual pleasure is entirely the strengthening aspect. Sure, we like people who give us pleasure. But it’s the total vulnerability that truly uninhibited sex requires which I think bolsters marriage. You are not just physically, but also emotionally and spirituall naked in front of your spouse. Only then can you really be unified with him/her.
So if somebody masterbates to avoid that, I’d say it was a sin. I DON’T think that a little kid who is just curious about his or her own body is doing anything wrong, though. My two cents.
Comment by momentarilyanon — February 16, 2006 @ 6:55 pm
Um jimbob - not speaking for anyone else here but masturbation has no ability to bring life into the world and sex does… how I dfferentiate how one can be ok and premarital sex is still not a good idea…
Comment by nonamer — February 16, 2006 @ 7:34 pm
Um, am I the only one thinking “WTH?” on the whole three-year-old / masturbation thing? A three-year-old cannot masturbate! Not all hand-on-genital behavior is masturbation. Masturbation consists in seeking sexual gratification from the action. Other touching that doesn’t have the same object — including basic figuring-things-out by a young child — isn’t masturbation.
It is possible to be okay with both bahaviors. (Some of the commenter here seem to be this way). But even if one thinks that masturbation by a 16-year-old or a 30-year-old is wrong — which does seem to be standard church teachings — that doesn’t really go to the question of a three-year-old figuring out how his/her body operates. (Which is what started the whole discussion).
Comment by Kaimi — February 16, 2006 @ 7:53 pm
Jimbob,
Check out the last paragraph of #162.
The church needs to change with the times just like it did with family planning. When people had ~10 kids and only two typically lived to adulthood, birth control was indeed a major sin. Today, when almost all kids reach adulthood, family planning isn’t a sin. The church went through a quiet transition on the issue. Likewise, today we delay marriage well into adulthood. Just look at this thread and all the sexual dysfunction generated by applying a biblical standard meant for teens commencing sex in arranged marriages and applying it to adults who where never designed to wait that long for passion. Something has to give for the well being of the saints. Perhaps we go back to teen marriages and three generations living under the same roof, or we allow exploratory safe sex until marriage or compromise by focusing on youth abstinence and “don’t ask, don’t tell” for adults.
Comment by Steve EM — February 16, 2006 @ 9:48 pm
This is just my take on it. Before marriage self love could be a very bad thing, it would give you a taste of something that you couldn’t have yet, and possibly make you weaker in situations with the oppisite sex. However, once you are married, if you are both ok with it, then fine. I see no reason why spouses shouldn’t do some exploring on their own. As long as porn isn’t involved, then what happens in the bedrooms of married saints should be left to the parties involved. If that means solo times, so be it, if you feel that it’s wrong, then don’t do it. It really does need to be between the couple as to what will work for them.
Comment by Aimee — February 16, 2006 @ 11:40 pm
Is it too late for me to jump into this mess? hee hee. I’ll read the thread, and then post. Long thread, so it might be the next millenium. But life sucks when you can’t O.
There, I said it. And it’s not from lack of husbandly attention and care, either. Of course, after a particularly revelatory therapy session, that night proved to be rather . . . fun. Course, then I REALLY knew what I was missing.
Erm. Anyway, it sucks to have stuff not going right, and to have men want u to not talk about it, and to feel like you can’t discuss with other women, for support and stuff.
Anyway, see you in a few days when I’ve read the whole thing.
Comment by sarebear — February 16, 2006 @ 11:57 pm
Oh, and my brother and his wife, well, she told me once that their bishop told them, as they were getting married, that anything they both consent to, that doesn’t harm anyone, and doesn’t involve anyone else, is ok. Porn fitting under the involves other people thing.
Comment by sarebear — February 17, 2006 @ 12:04 am
Okay, Becky Absent Minded Housewife, Where is it? email me. Ha!
Comment by sarebear — February 17, 2006 @ 12:09 am
Jimbob, I’m really glad to see those mind reading lessons are finally paying off!
But seriously, no. I honestly don’t mind that you have a different opinion than me. I’m perfectly willing to consider the possiblility that I’m wrong. However I do not like the tactic you’ve used of putting words in my mouth. It’s not good manners. If you truely want to ask me about what I think, then I’d ask you to rephrase using your very best social skills. Okay.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 17, 2006 @ 12:26 am
My goodness. I can’t believe you guys deleted my post with God’s name in vain and left in all those other words. Not that I read them all. But it does seem rather hypocritical since somebody talked about dicks. And other kind of bad word stuff. I mean, why didn’t you substitute a euphemism for dick. Like “private part.”
I have a good sex life, but you will never hear the details from me. or my husband, either.
Well, I’m up late tonight and I’m surfing the web and I thought I would tell you that we went to see Firewall the other night and I told my husband I was going to the bathroom and I snuck into Brokeback Mountain. And I must say, wherever they filmed it is one of the most beautiful places I’ve ever seen in pictures or real life.
It was only at the beginning and they were just making friends and I watched really closely to see how men look when they are falling in love with other men and I just couldn’t go there.
And I mentioned it to Buttgold today and I was saying I can’t figure out how it could be fun to both men the way I understand things to be done and I couldn’t figure out how men slobbering over each other could be the least bit attractive to another man.
well, my next door neighbor told me that her husband thought the idea of women making love to each other was beautiful because women are beautiful and men are sort of not and I said that sounds like something a man would say.
And I shared my escapade with my visiting teaching ladies tonight and some of them understood and a couple of them looked at me strangely and my newly baptized companion didn’t say anything.
And Buttgold looked at me and said, “Mom, do we need to have a sex talk?” And I said, “no, we’re having one on the blog.”
Also, I don’t think masturbation is such a big deal. I think it’s like anything else which could be no big deal to some people and lead to perversion in a few like Jeffrey Dahmer or something.
Comment by annegb — February 17, 2006 @ 1:33 am
anne,
I don’t think we deliberatly deleted your post, We’ve edited a few words here and there, but as far as I’m aware only two posts have been deleted by us, neither yours.
And to EhNony and other purveyors anticdotal evidence of the ill-effects of masterbation, I’m not convinced. It seems to me much more likely that all of the problems you have listed as being caused by masterbation are much more likely to be deeper problems with the abuse of masterbation as their symptoms.
Just as an antecdotal example to counter yours, the man who prefers masterbation to sex with his wife, (and there’s no reason why he/they can’t enjoy both) chances are that the problem has nothing to do with masterbation. He could just be tired and overscheduled and two minutes alone is easier than two hours in the sack with his wife, this could be solved with some scheduling for intimate time. Or he could have relationship/intimacy issues with his wife, maybe he doesn’t feel emotionally safe in bed with her, or perhaps it’s self-esteem or body issues, or he could be a selfish misanthrope. Regardless, his problems aren’t going to solved by blaming the masterbation. It’s easier to say, if he would only stop masterbating all our sex problems would be solved, when the reality is probably much more complicated and difficult.
As has been said here before, masterbation can be misused and abused, it can be used as a weapon in a relationship, it can be used with porn, but those are just symptoms of larger problems and stopping the masterbation isn’t going to solve anything if those larger problems are never addressed.
Meanwhile, the vast majority is simply a physical release for healthy normal people who can’t have sex with a loving partner at the moment.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 17, 2006 @ 9:22 am
On Shifting Standards
Nonamer:
Then the unmarried can have oral or anal sex or practice mutual masturbation and “be ok?” Personally, I don’t even think that satisfies the spirit of the law.
I agree with Kaimi in that a three-year old’s genital touching is not masturbation and should be handled differently than a 14 year-old genital touching.
Sarebear and Steve EM, I’m not sure what to make of your comments about anything goes as long as its between husband and wife, but porn is out. Can husband and wife make their own movie to watch in private, and it’s okay? After all, no one else is involved.
And for the rhetorical record, fmhLisa, I don’t think Jimbob was “putting words in your mouth.” He was using a rhetorical tactic of creating a conclusion from your comments and asking if you agree. You needn’t be defensive, but can simply state that you don’t agree, and provide a reasoning. Then again, I’m an interloper here, so I may not be aware of an unwritten rule against it.
Comment by Polly — February 17, 2006 @ 9:35 am
There, Sarebear got an email.
If anyone else would like the link to the well written and in depth website about women’s sexual health and happiness that I referred Sarebear to, I will email it to you. Email can be found on my blog profile, link on my name.
Knowledge is power, or so they say.
Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — February 17, 2006 @ 9:42 am
Becky you can link to it from here, the little arrow above the comment box is a link button.
Polly, I’m perfectly aware of what jimbob was trying to do, I just think that it was impolite and I’m not fond of impolite rhetorical tools. I don’t think it’s defensive of me to point this out, nor do I think it’s too much to ask that we use good manners, especially when talking about delicate and important subjects.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 17, 2006 @ 9:49 am
I didn’t know that linking would be appropriate or not.
Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — February 17, 2006 @ 9:52 am
I’m sorry, fmhLisa, to have used a common device to flesh out where your logic takes us. Perhaps you can tone down your hyper-sensitivity and explain to me why everything you said about masturbation doesn’t also apply to premarital sex. Most of the arguments seem the same to me. (And to preempt some arguments above, much of the premarital sex happening these days is incapable of rendering anyone pregnant–i.e., oral, anal. Besides, is the new standard for appropriate sex whether it can render someone pregnant or not?)
Comment by jimbob — February 17, 2006 @ 9:59 am
fMhLisa, I don’t see it as a matter of politeness and manners, but as a way of reframing the argument by trying to display other perspectives of one’s position. If the discussion is dispassionate enough, it can be very useful to all involved.
But, again, I’m a stranger here, so I’ll make sure that I try to follow your rules as I understand them.
Rhetorical tactics: impolitic
Slippery slope: silly
What have I missed?
Comment by Polly — February 17, 2006 @ 10:14 am
Becky, people may be embarrased to email you on the topic, prefering to remain anonymous. And Annegb, it brought smile to my face thinking of you talking to the visiting teachers about sneaking into Brokeback Mountain. You have to be the most interesting person to talk to in their group of sisters.
Comment by jjohnsen — February 17, 2006 @ 11:14 am
oops! :-0
brain dead
Becky, if there’s no Pornography, I’m fine with most any kind of link that addresses a given topic.
jimbob, I do understand that it’s a fairly common rhetorical device, but I still don’t think it’s a great way to open up a respectful dialogue. Thank you for rephrasing your question so beautifully and I’m glad to address it, except I’ve got all these hungry kids demanding lunch right now.
Polly,
being a newcomer is no problem, and I’m aware that figuring out where the lines are drawn can be difficult, you might try reading through our commenting guidelines (though we probably need to update those too), maybe read through some of the archives (although those aren’t always the best examples of what we expect, especially when we have troll problems) but I think you can get a good feel for the tone around here. Yes we do get testy at times, even lose our tempers, but if there is a way that we can avoid some of the meanness and make things respectful I think that’s better. And I think we learn more from each other that way.
Anyway, the kid
Comment by fMhLisa — February 17, 2006 @ 12:18 pm
I was saying . . .
the kids aren’t going to let me blog for a while, but I’ll be back.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 17, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
It’s easier to say, if he would only stop masterbating all our sex problems would be solved, when the reality is probably much more complicated and difficult.
That’s very close to my point, actually. Sex is complicated and difficulet enough as it is; why add behaviours that have to be unlearned? It’s not that my husband is addicted to masturbation or that he prefers it to intercourse with me. It’s that we have enough to learn about phsyical intimacy and communiction without adding this problem. It’s a disappointment for both marriage partners. One learns that sex is more complicated than they’d htought and feels betrayed — by nature, by whatever. The other is left to wonder if it’s their fault somehow — it seems to have been so easy for their partner, maybe they are the problem? Maybe they’re not attractive enough or sexual enough or maybe their body has all its wiring messed up and they should just go along with things enough so that their partner at least can enjoy sex because they never will?
Sexual acts should be reserved for the marriage bed when two people can grow together in this special bond. Real intercourse isn’t about what gets you off, it’s about what gets your parnter off and how is anybody going to learn that if their first experiences with sex have been with themselves? No, it’s not impossible. Just long and painful in a process already difficult for many.
Comment by Eh? Nony Mouse — February 17, 2006 @ 12:23 pm
“Sarebear and Steve EM, I’m not sure what to make of your comments about anything goes as long as its between husband and wife, but porn is out……….”
I never said porn was out between a couple. My wife and I don’t make a habit out of it, but we’re both entertained by the comical aspects of porn. If a couple uses it as erotica (which is more likely soft porn), who are we to get into their bedroom?
Comment by Steve EM — February 17, 2006 @ 12:30 pm
There are erotic fantasies and first time stories on this site, but no outright porn. It’s easy to navigate so you can stay away from personal ramblings. There are also drawings of normal female bodies, some in sexual positions to illustrate a point of topic. In my opinion these are tasteful.
http://www.the-clitoris.com/
There is also a link on this site to a brother site titled the-penis.com. I found a lot more porn imagery and advertising on this site, that you had to muddle through before you got to the useful information. I don’t reccommend that one. The two sites are not run by the same folk.
Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — February 17, 2006 @ 12:39 pm
porn was never mentioned to me specifically by my SIL, or that their bishop had said that, I was just guessing.
For myself and my husband, personally, I would think soft might be ok, especially it’s just acting and no one actually doing the “main” act, I guess. I dunno, I guess it can get hard to draw the lines.
Comment by sarebear — February 17, 2006 @ 12:56 pm
Steve EM, sorry it was Aimee, not you. Your post was above hers, and I blurred the messages when scrolling. Mea culpa. Query what other uses porn has than erotica. Isn’t it all created from prurient purposes?
sarebear, I agree that it can be difficult to draw the lines. I think that’s why there are guidelines established by the Church, although some feel more comfortable coloring outside those than others.
fMhLisa, I guess I was trying to step in as a mediator between jimbob and you. I appreciate your suggestions, and I try to keep it civil.
Comment by Polly — February 17, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
My husband always laughs at me because I get turned on by barbarian movies. But I am a little strange in that way. My dad used to rent those racy movies with lots of boobs and not much else when I was young and he used to make me and my brother put our heads under a blanket if there was ever any nudity. I suppose that just carried over into my adult sexuality…
I also get a little randy after watching blind date. (weird I know) Its a running joke between dh and I that when I initiate the nasty he always says “was blind date on?”.
Oddly enough real porn doesnt have this affect on me. I suppose it has something to do with the victorian ankle concept. its what you dont see that does it for me.
I dont know if I was edited earlier, but I stand by an earlier comment that I think needs saying. Men have prostates, and the sensation that comes from stimulating it is amazing (so I am told). A well placed finger will send him over the moon. A little yucky, but more understandable than putting anything up my bum.
Also nobody has mentioned what my husband and I call the Taint. (ie t’aint his balls and t’aint his ass) Its the spot between the scrotum and anus. DH calls it his G spot.
To me the key to a healthy sex life is yes , knowing what you like, but the amazing stuff is when you can really search for what they like. I get a crazy kick out of watching my hubby become putty in my hand. I know that if I were to ask him for anything in that moment (which of course I never do) I would get it. Thats some pretty potent aphrodisiac for me.
Comment by state the obvious girl — February 17, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
Sorry, my question was “Isn’t it all (porn) created for prurient purposes?”
It’s like my fingers have a mind of their own.
Comment by Polly — February 17, 2006 @ 2:48 pm
At some point are we going to stop talking about how my question was asked and actually start answering the question? I’m beginning to believe the protests to the form are to avoid having to deal with the substance.
I would also point out that there are several ways to be rude, and mine was obviously unintended (I’m really still not sure what all the hub-bub is about–I framed the whole thing in a question; no words were put in people’s mouths). I’m not sure you could make the same claim for comment 203, which was purposefully condescending (”using your very best social skills”). Perhaps someone can explain why one of those is okay, but the other isn’t. I hope it’s not just because I’m disagreeing with someone who runs the board. That would be disappointing.
Comment by jimbob — February 17, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
jimbob.
Lisa’s on her way, she’s just busy with some domestic stuff (you know, kids, etc) at the moment. Have patience!
Comment by EmilyS — February 17, 2006 @ 4:10 pm
OKay Jim, Sorry, violent and angry boy spread crackers all over the house, and I still haven’t vacuumed, and the laundry and well . . . the list is long and it’s not that I mind using you as a tool to procrastinate, because I don’t, but I just wanted enough time to do a thorough answer.
So hopefully this moment of peace will last.
Certainly, the power to make a child plays into it, but I think for me the sex line is crossed when another person becomes involved.
oh shit, sorry the baby’s awake and he’s waking up his sisters!
I’m so sorry, this is just going to have to wait until this evening. I’m not going to get into the detail I’d like with the home drama going on right now.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 17, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
I’m sure this question was asked somewhere else before, but can a YSA be denied a temple recommend for masturbating?
Comment by jane — February 18, 2006 @ 8:51 am
Polly #219 and 221,
other uses porn has than erotica?
You’re correct that the most porn is erotica, be it soft or hard porn. But there’s also a comical aspect (getting right down to business w/o warming up the engine first, no reference to a relationship beyond the sexual encounter, etc). Included in the comical part are activities that wouldn’t please most couples in real life but are done almost in a documentary fashion to authenticate the activity.
The comedy can then descend to the degrading and painful and then further descends into utter debauchery. The intent of these lower genres is clearly degradation and encouraging sick domination of another human being rather than erotica. I think this is why church authorities say stay away from the whole thing. Something that should be pleasant and beautiful can be slowly twisted into comedy and then disgusting depravity.
That said, my wife and I sometimes enjoy porn together and I’m very adverse to church leaders getting into people’s bedrooms.
Where I really have a short fuse is when people start throwing the “addiction” word around when discussing sexual issues. It’s a complete misuse of the word.
Comment by Steve EM — February 18, 2006 @ 11:00 am
I think this topic has been hilarious! Thanks! Well DH was certainly surprised when I came in asking what he thought of a vibrator. I really couldn’t believe it because we are very open about sex and have tried everything else on the board (as far as positions)… but he claimed he was a natural guy and didn’t know… I kept pressing him and he finally confessed that he had only heard gays talk about using it… I guess that was a turn off. I think it is really kinda funny he has this hang up about it. I told him to keep it in mind for our 2 year anniversary (in a couple months)… we’ll see.
Thanks for the topic!
Comment by a new anon — February 18, 2006 @ 11:10 am
Speaking of which, we have now ordered a bullet vibrator as a starting activity, but I must say that remote butterfly looks like a lot of fun!
Comment by anon this time — February 18, 2006 @ 2:03 pm
Re comment 225 (whether single adults can get TRs if they masturbate), it depends (a) on the bishop and (b) on how honest the member is.
(a) Some bishops withhold recommends and others don’t. It’s very inconsistent. I even know a woman whose bishop threatened a church court because she refused to stop using a vibrator.
(b) If a member believes (as has been consistently taught) that masturbation is against the law of chastity, to get a recommend s/he just lies about it or suffes the consequences of not having a recommend if the bishop is strict about it.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 18, 2006 @ 3:03 pm
Jane–
I think it depends on the bishop and the frequency of masterbation. Nobody ever asked me about it when I was single, but I did have a friend who told me she had a “problem” with it (frequency) and the bishop called her to be a temple worker. I know of other bishops, however, who had less tolerant reactions. I don’t think there’s a policy or anything–although elders must “get the problem under control” to go on missions, I think.
Comment by momentarilyanon — February 18, 2006 @ 3:35 pm
I even know a woman whose bishop threatened a church court because she refused to stop using a vibrator.
This blows my mind! How? Wha. . .? Why would anyone get into such intimate specifics with a bishop? Is this normal? The idea of discussing such private details of my life with a man who isn’t my husband (even if he’s my trusted bishop) is unthinkable for me!
Comment by meems — February 19, 2006 @ 8:27 am
Okay Jimbob,
Sorry this has taken so long.
The big (and I suppose obvious) difference between masturbation and other premarital sexual activities is that masturbation is a solo activity. There is no other person involved, with all their emotions, their baggage, their needs, their spiritual self to consider in your actions. As soon as another person becomes involved in our actions, any action, those actions take on a whole new value. This is especially true when sex is involved, and i think, this is especially especially true for women. And not just because of the risk of pregnancy, although that is part of it, and not just because of disease either, although that also should play a role.
I truly can’t see the negative impact of removing the stigma on masturbation. Yes, it should be a private activity. But I see no negative emotional, physical, or (necessary) spiritual effects. (No I do not find the anticdotal evidence that masterbation harms later mariatal sex relationships even remotely compelling, as I’ve stated before)
However, you get another person involved, and the entire meaning of the activity changes. You’re now talking about a relationship between two people, and all the emotion, physical and spiritual fall-out of that is huge. As much as modern culture has tried to take the meaning/emotion/commitment out of sexual activity between people, I just don’t see our human make-up allowing these attitudes to work. Especially for women. Especially especially for girls.
I think even kissing should be taken seriously, as in, only with someone you truly care about, only with someone you respect, someone whose soul you will take care with.
I also think the modern free-sex culture has been primarily of “benefit” to men. Almost all of the immature sexual activity taking place among teenagers these days is about pleasure for boys and valuing/using girls as objects of desire. Not only does this make girls into objects, denies them their full value, their needs and desires, it teaches boys not to really see women as important whole people. It teaches them that they can use women, and give nothing back. Which is why I put “benefit” in quotes. This attitude, of course spills into adulthood.
I don’t think that the sin in sexual activity has much to do with the acts themselves so much as it is tied up in how we treat each other as human beings. What are our goals, our motivations, how much have we loved and respected those around us? If we use each other for sexual fulfillment without regard to the spiritual and emotional fall-out of those decisions, then we are sinning. I think the Lord wants us to commit to marriage before we engage in sexual activity because he knows that without that level of commitment we are likely to take advantage of each other, to use each other, to harm each other. And then we have sinned.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 19, 2006 @ 10:52 am
fmhlisa,
very good comment. let me ask a few questions though::
first, is it true that masturbation has no pitential effect? after all, it is more than just the physical act. masturbation involes some amount of imagination and visualization. if I’m masturbating while thinking of my spouse, that may be harmless. but is it equally harmless if I’m visualizing the next door neighbor? isn’t there some level of potential harm that could come (no pun intended) from that?
Comment by a.non@y.mo.us — February 19, 2006 @ 11:35 am
Re #231–She was a single woman and so she was trying to clarify whether this act was considered breaking the law of chastity.
i.e. She had no husband. Such is the lot of the single people in the Church–if they’re supposed ot live like shiny-faced innocent For the Strength of Youth poster teens for the rest of their lives, they tend to:
1. Remain like innocent children (not healthy)
2. Masturbate and/or fornicate and lie about it so they can get temple recommends.
3. Masturbate and/or fornicate and feel guilty/repent and then associate negative or guilty feelings with sexual pleasure,
4. Tell a near-complete stranger (the bishop) about their sex lives, which according to the church, they shouldn’t even have!
Whether a single/divorced/widowed person is 20 or 60, s/he is supposed to “confess” to breaking the law of Chastity, which for some bishops is anything beyong kissing and including masturbation.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 19, 2006 @ 11:47 am
oops hit post too soon.
I agree completely on many of your points. on kissing being serious, and only for serious committed caring couples. I agree that the benefit for free sex accrues mostly to men. and that the meaning and caring for others is the most important. that is the great problem of polygamy imo.
but your formulation opens cans of worms, lisa. you say that the important thing is to treat others with respect and love, not be selfish, not be about using others for self gratification. and that the marriage rule is because we are more likely to do this in marriage. and more likely to take advantage of others outside of marriage, in a no strings attached environment.
but isn’t it possible to have a loving committed non selfish relationship, outside marriage? does your exception swallow the rule? if I’m being unselfish and careful and loving, is it okay to have a long term relation not with spouse, under your theory? if so, what does that mean? just a question. I like your theory, I think, but I don’t know if I buy it.
Comment by a.non@y.mo.us — February 19, 2006 @ 11:50 am
Setting aside the morality of it all, I wonder how many spouses would be “ok” knowing that their partner was pleasuring him/ herself when the other wasn’t around.
Does anyone feel betrayed by this action when done alone?
Comment by Red — February 19, 2006 @ 5:07 pm
Nobody ever told me that masturbation was against Church standards until I went in to see the bishop for my Melchezidek priesthood interview. He asked specifically about masturbation and I was like “oh @#%$, there goes the fun”. So, I did it for eight months before I ever even thought about stopping. I thought it was a bad thing, but I didn’t feel terrible about it or anything. My masturbation frequency went down because I stopped looking at porn and had vague feelings that it’s wrong.
My take: I actually do think masturbation is a bad thing, but I don’t think it’s nearly the sin that we claim it to be in the Church. My bishop did deny me a recommend and the MP until I went a couple months without masturbating. Seems a little harsh for a standard I was never taught, but that’s just a natural coincidence of making a small sin into a horrible abomination. My bishop is a good man, but I seriously think he’d rather see me beat the hell out of every priest, deacon, and teacher in the stake than masturbate once a week.
Comment by D-Train — February 19, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
I don’t feel betrayed if he’s being with himself…nor does he feel that way of me. This is because we recognize that the singular activity serves a different purpose than marital sex, even though both can end in orgasm. When it becomes a replacement for marital sex, then boy, do we have issues.
I don’t believe I lost the rights to my own body upon marriage. I share willingly.
Besides, we both define masturbation as a solo activity. Touching ourselves with one another present falls into the category of marital sex.
Comment by anonymous married lady — February 19, 2006 @ 7:46 pm
Lisa writes:
I’ve thought about your comment for a bit, Lisa. And I think that I agree (mostly) but there are a lot of things I’m not sure about.
First, I think you’re wrong (comment edited) if your comment in any way implies that people don’t take advantage of each other in marriages. People act selfishly in marriages every day. One hopes it’s not every act, but it happens frequently in every marriage I’ve ever observed.
It then becomes an empirical test. Yes, people act selfishly with their spouses. But are they less likely to do so, than they would with a casual companion? I’m not sure. I’d like to think that you’re right.
I think (hope) that there is a greater likelihood of other-oriented behavior, in a stable, long-term relationship (such as a marriage), than not. Marriage opens up the gates for long-term affection and care. The classic taking-care-of-sick-wife-for-20-years situation. You just don’t get that, outside of a long-term, stable relationship.
However, spouses are famously less likely to make efforts in other areas. Spouses don’t date as often, don’t kiss as much, don’t flirt as much. Spouses are less likely to make efforts. In addition, marriage opens the gates for long-term abuse, emotional dependency, co-dependent spouses, passive-aggressiveness, and all sorts of other fun. So it’s hard to say how the equation balances out. I think you’re right, Lisa, but it’s hard to evaluate.
I do think that quick flings are probably more likely to be selfish, as a whole. I had a co-worker who was always chasing (comment edited for language) co-workers. And yet he clearly did not give a shit about any of them. I’ve known many such people - quick to jump into the sack with co-workers or classmates, and even quicker to tell the details to everyone they know. Completely selfish. (And yet, compare to people who do not give a shit about their wives. Yeah, it’s hard to generalize.)
So I think that your generalization is both overinclusive and underinclusive, Lisa. Overinclusive, because many marriages _are_ selfish. Underinclusive, because it’s possible to have non-selfishness outside marriage.
Given all this, despite its limitations, I think your statement is a pretty good characterization of general rules and trends.
Comment by KDW — February 19, 2006 @ 8:43 pm
Red says: Does anyone feel betrayed by this action when done alone?
Nope.
Comment by meems — February 19, 2006 @ 9:15 pm
I guess I always assumed this would be a problem for most wives.
I still find it hard to believe that most wives would be OK with this practice by their husbands.
Red
Comment by Red — February 19, 2006 @ 9:39 pm
From a liberal female perspective, masturbation is nothing about fantasy/porn. It’s about release, orgasm, relaxation. Orgasm is a physical need sometimes. It’s no substitute for an intimate relationship. And I am not stressed in the least if my husband takes care of himself on occasion, allthough he carries a great deal of guilt over it.
Comment by too scared to say — February 19, 2006 @ 9:50 pm
I thought I’d stop back in, since I asked (one of) the question(s).
To clarify, obviously there is nothing bad about a three-year-old exploring her body. I hope I didn’t imply that. My concern is how to handle it for future purposes.
I do disagree–publicly even
–that masturbation outside of marriage is okay. I have had bishops, men I respect, ask about it. One was very relieved that I even knew what he was talking about so he didn’t have to explain. I’m also hesitant about it inside of marriage (as far as solo is concerned), so you’re not completely off base there Red.
So, I was mainly thinking of future, since I do think that it would be wrong for my daughter to continue when she is older, but right now she is obviously innocent. It’s just more visible now. I kind of doubt I would see as much when she’s a teenager, so I’m trying to figure out how to handle it now when I can see it.
Thanks Ana and Eh?Nony for your suggestions. I have mostly been using the distraction method…and trying to keep clothes on her!
Comment by Euphrasie — February 20, 2006 @ 11:14 am
To the extent I understand your position, it is this [I’m restating here; lest anyone get offended, these are my words as I understand fmhLisa’s]:
The church has masturbation wrong: it is inherently not sinful as no one else is involved and therefore no one else can be harmed. The church has premarital sex right because someone else can be harmed. The church also has premarital sex right because women are frequently the emotional victims of an insensitive and overactive male libido.
Are you suggesting that so long as we don’t interact with others, our acts cannot be sinful? Are you suggesting that the primary impetus for the Lord banning premarital sex is so that women can be treated more fairly? Do you have any non-anecdotal support for these novel contentions?
I think you’re making a case for why we as a society should condone one and not the other. But you aren’t really dealing with the implications of the gospel as such. From a gospel standpoint, I’m pretty confident the Lord cares about what we do, even when we’re alone. And I’m pretty sure that there’s far more at play than just the fact that women become more emotionally attached at sex. At the most basic level, I would like to see some explanation as to why one would be harmful to my soul–not my latent sense of fairness or feminism–while the other would not. Or is you position that the basis for all sexual sin is found in the Lord’s putative liberal feminism?
Comment by jimbob — February 20, 2006 @ 11:15 am
jimbob,
THe church has moved on from this. Everywhere we’ve lived the youth are now asked the same question as adults: “do you live the law of chastity”. The current Strength of Youth booklet omits any discussion of masturbation. Get over it.
Comment by Steve EM — February 21, 2006 @ 10:58 am
Though some of your comments have been enlightening, some even entertaining, I am shocked to hear others who value their own opinions above the revelations of God through his prophets and then claim that “the church” is not up-to-date. How truly ridiculous are the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Do you suppose that the General Authorities of the church are all mislead?
When they speak so boldly in General Conference about staying far away from pornography the Spirit is not going to say, “But all you couples who are married, it’s okay for you to entertain and arouse yourselves by watching naked people other than your spouse, if it turns you on, and it’s okay to watch other people having sex, if it satisfies your lustful appetites.” It’s no wonder that it takes more and more to satisfy sexual desires these days. We have become a desensitised generation.
Why would the Prophet speak against the wrongness of masturbation, if it truly had no adverse effects? When we covenant in the temple to obey the law of chastity, to refrain from sexual relations with anyone except our husband or wife, that includes abstaining from a sexual relation with ones self too. That does not mean that I deny the God-given attribute of sexuality. It doesn’t mean that I cannot touch my spouse in a way that will satisfy him, thereby satisfying me. Nor does it mean that I will never think of sex. It does mean that I will bridle my passions in the absence of my spouse, that I will wait for him to come home to me (as I did before we got married) before I release those passions, it means to overcome the selfish appetites of the flesh, and devote myself and my thoughts to my spouse and to expect the same loyalty and fidelity in return.
The world’s standard, “everything goes” is not the Lord’s standard. And He does not need any up-dates. I believe that the Lord wants us to have all that He has and to enjoy all that He enjoys, truly, in everything. Pro”creation” requires creativity, we’re supposed to have a great time but I cannot for a minute believe that our Father in Heaven who enjoys sex in perfection would ever masturbate or use pornography. I am not going out on a limb in observing and stating such an obvious fact. Anyone offended by the counsel against masturbation ought to take it up with the Lord. He’s not going to condemn them to hell. He’s not going to call anyone a pervert but he isn’t going to tailor his commandments to suit anybodies individual “needs” either. He says repent and change.
The Spirit of the law isn’t ever going to go against the will of the Lord. “The church” doesn’t get into the bedrooms of its members. Don’t think yourself to be such a point of attraction. Certain individuals in leadership positions have, in the past, said things that were merely opinion. We can sort out truth from opinion for ourselves through the Spirit, the same way we do when we come across any piece information. But when direction has been given from the Lord, specifically for our day, He commands His servants to declare it and to do so with conviction.. Those who challenge that direction are simply wrong and even more so for persuading naive individuals to believe that the Lord doesn’t really know what is good for His children.
P.S. A foreign language spoken with a good accent can be very sexy I admit but I don’t know any missionary who ever learned a foreign language fluently enough to be able to talk bedroom talk. He might just be quoting you the fourth discussion! Ooh! Aah!
Comment by Kerik — February 21, 2006 @ 11:10 am
Hear, hear, Kerik! You’ve said exactly what I’ve been thinking all along. I applaud your integrity and courage.
Comment by Bee — February 21, 2006 @ 12:08 pm
Kerik,
Will you please point me to this doctrine, “Father in Heaven who enjoys sex in perfection?” Sounds facinating!
Thank you.
Comment by Carlton — February 21, 2006 @ 12:35 pm
I’d like to take a poll, men v. women:
Who was asked “the question” by their Bishop/SP/MP about the big M while growing up as a youth or as a young adult or as a married person.
My take has always been that boys/men were always/frequently asked, while girls/women rarely if ever. This seems very hypocritical to me, so I am interested in the difference in worthiness interviews for men v. women and why one would be asked the question and another not.
p.s. fMhLISA Hooray for your comments on this issue and this blog topic in general!
Comment by Talon — February 21, 2006 @ 12:52 pm
“THe church has moved on from this. Everywhere we’ve lived the youth are now asked the same question as adults: ‘do you live the law of chastity’. The current Strength of Youth booklet omits any discussion of masturbation. Get over it.”
Thanks for your sage advice Steve. Rest assured, I’ll do my best to “get over it,” whatever it means. In the meantime, you may want to explore the possibility that by asking about chastity and telling our youth to be chaste, the church is still asking and counseling against masturbation. That is, the question has been made broader, rather than more narrow, by asking a blanket question about chastity. So as to help me get over it, do you have something more concrete than a self-serving interpretation of the FTSOTY pamphlet, or should I just take your word for it? I’m willing to change my mind if you can make a better case than your well-worn “the church needs to get with the times” argument.
Comment by jimbob — February 21, 2006 @ 1:12 pm
Carlton, can you point out to me a doctrine that proves otherwise? Common sense tells me that mortals do not enjoy more than the Lord. If I cannot make love with my husband after the resurrection, I think that would be horrible. I am not sure how spirit children are made but I do not think that our body parts become useless when we reach perfection (considering that gender is eternal). When that day comes I conclude that we will have become perfect at everything. That is my hope at least.
Comment by Kerik — February 21, 2006 @ 1:19 pm
This is incorrect. The Sexual Purity section of the Strength of Youth booklet says:
“Before marriage, do not do anything to arouse the powerful emotions that must be expressed only in marriage. Do not participate in passionate kissing, lie on top of another person, or touch the private, sacred parts of another person’s body, with or without clothing. Do not allow anyone to do that with you. Do not arouse those emotions in your own body.”
Kerik, thank you for saying so well (#246) what I’ve been thinking.
Comment by yet another anon — February 21, 2006 @ 1:22 pm
Re: comment #245–
I guess it depends on how honest a person wants to be. If masturbation is not against the law of chastity, someone (a single person or teen) who says they keep the LOC but masturbates is simply lying.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 21, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
oops, make that if it “IS” against the law of chastity. If it’s not, then it should be clearly statesd over the pulpit at General Conference to clarify things for millions of members, especially single members, teens and missionaries.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 21, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
Kerik (#251),
I’m not trying to argue with you. I would like clarification (scriptural would be best) to many of your points, but especially the, “Father in Heaven who enjoys sex in perfection,” doctrine. You state, “Common sense tells me that mortals do not enjoy more than the Lord.” Maybe you’ve extrapolated pseudo-doctrine from your own opinion, members in leadership positions (“Certain individuals in leadership positions have, in the past, said things that were merely opinion”), and/or Mormon lore. Does that mean it is doctrine? Can a modern-day prophet have an incorrect opinion or is that limited only to “Certain individuals in leadership positions.” Please help me understand, your knowledge seems deep and profound.
Comment by Carlton — February 21, 2006 @ 3:45 pm
Wow, 255 posts and counting! Perhaps FMH should change its name to mormonsextalk.com. Apparently sex is all anyone wants to discuss. Frankly, this is all becoming very tedious.
Comment by Jason — February 21, 2006 @ 4:00 pm
So stop reading.
Comment by Carlton — February 21, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
Carlton,
I don’t want to stop. I’m getting so……hot.
Comment by Jason — February 21, 2006 @ 4:09 pm
Oh jason, jason, jason,
I’ve told you this before, and it gets, yes, tedious. If you’re only point in a comment is to tell us how lame we are, then just don’t do it. If we’re so lame that you can’t stand it, then go away. Do something interesting. You have the world at your fingertips and no one but you makes you come HERE.
You know what I think? You’re very interested. Or you would have disappeared months ago.
What does that say about you?
Not that this is the time or place to answer that question, because it’s not. This thread is about SEX. So please only comment if you have something to say about SEX.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 21, 2006 @ 4:13 pm
“Apparently sex is all anyone wants to discuss.”
And all Jason wants to read.
Comment by Kim Siever — February 21, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
fMHLisa,
You caught me. I am very, very interested. This whole thread is like porn for mormons. The mental pictures I get reading about the sexual practices of others is very entertaining. Anal sex, oral sex, its just so…engrosing. And I don’t even have to pay. Wow!
Comment by Jason — February 21, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
Well, I’m glad we could be here for you Jason.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 21, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
Carlton, you have only been asking me about my personal thoughts based on my knowledge thus far and have disregarded the facts. There has been nothing deep or profound about the things I have said nor have I declared my opinion as doctrine. I suppose a few of my reflections were inspired by D&C 130:1-2 (including the footnotes).
But your years “thus far” probably outnumber mine…you’ll have to come to your own conclusions on that specific matter. Whatever that may be, is not really my concern. However you seemed to have missed the point of what I was actually saying.
I said that the Lord has revealed through his servants that pornography and masturbation are wrong and that those who try to convince themselves or others that it doesn’t really matter are in the wrong. On this point our modern day prophet(s) have not been incorrect. D&C 6:28. How can there be any disputations in that?
Now about “Certain individuals in leadership positions.”:
If a teacher in a sunday school class or a stake president for example makes a comment that you should only have sex in order to bring children into the world, for example, I think it is safe to assume that this may be his personal opinion and get on with your life. Just as you may now get on with yours. Trifle with that if you will.
Comment by Kerik — February 21, 2006 @ 4:53 pm
fMhLisa,
Why did you cut my last post? It was about sex. And I was just pointing out that this blog had probably inspired masterbation–another sexual issue. What’s up?
Comment by Jason — February 21, 2006 @ 5:02 pm
I didn’t cut anything . . . sorry. A lot of these comments get plunked into the moderation queue (lots of suspicious words), but I don’t see one there either.
What did you say about sex?
Comment by fMhLisa — February 21, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
Oh, I see, you think we’ve probably inspired masturbation. But we’ve already established I don’t have a problem with that . . . so . . . ? All I can figure is that you’re still just trying to condemn without adding anything to the conversations. This is indeed tiresome.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 21, 2006 @ 5:29 pm
Well, just that the posts have been well written and explicit. They were therefore likely the inspiration for some masterbation sessions. That’s all. Nothing profound.
Although I wonder if some of the posts have been sincere. I think some of the posts have been to titilate and shock. I had written out a long (and very fake post) about how my wife and I enjoyed sex with farm animals. I thought it was very funny but my better judgment prevented me from posting it.
Comment by Jason — February 21, 2006 @ 5:33 pm
okay that made me chuckle, I’m still chuckling. I’m glad you have some better judgement to rely on.
I honestly wasn’t titilated or shocked by anything on this post. I thought most everyone drew the line rather well. I’m really surprised we only had to erase/edit a few posts. I’m quite proud of fMh readers, truth be told.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 21, 2006 @ 5:39 pm
fMhLisa,
I have a hard time believing that you have not been shocked or titilated. Look at the very first post. That is pure adult bookstore material. You could make money off that story.
Comment by Jason — February 21, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
I haven’t been shocked or titillated - I have been amazed that other LDS people think about sex - about ways to make it better with your spouse - that there are people with whom you can actually get some advice on lubrication, positions, etc. I agree that if you don’t like the thread quit piping up to say that - move on already!
Comment by AAA — February 21, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
Sorry Jason,
Just not easily shocked, and this type of thing isn’t my cup’o in the titilation department.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 21, 2006 @ 6:07 pm
First I think that this dialogue has potential for good and bad. President Kimball said that the #1 cause of divorce amongst church members was sexual incompatibility. Maybe having a means to communicate our feelings to our spouse would be the first place to start. Understanding that other “faithful” have had challenges within the bedroom walls would give us courage to hang in there and work patiently together. On the other hand, the masturbation discussion has clearly gone outside of Church doctrine until 246 set the record straight. You can go to LDS.org and look up Elder Packer’s talk in the 70’s on the subject if you want it spelled out for you in detail. It is interesting to note that the earliest public condemnation on masturbation by a general authority was not until 1956 and at that time it was described as “self-abuse.” Prior to the 1960’s society at large considered masturbation as a moral wrong. Maybe it was the introduction of “Playboy” in the 60’s that changed it for everyone.
What I would like to know is that since Elder Oak’s scriptural basis for the evil of pornography is based on “if any man looks on a woman and lusts after her, he has committed adultery with her in his heart.” Is it pornography for me to photograph my eternal companion and lust after her with either my still or video cam? And if it is immoral to exchange sex talk with a non-spouse via the internet, is it having “sexual relations” with my spouse if I IM her and get “off” together?
Comment by Dr. R — February 21, 2006 @ 10:27 pm
Absolutely nothing on this thread has been shocking, and as far as titilating- nope- just informative. If this type of discussion makes you want to masturbate, so would a stiff breeze.
Comment by annonymous — February 21, 2006 @ 10:53 pm
#272
Well, that’s what I would have though too. OTOH, did anyone read the side blog link on Forbidden Technology? There was this very, um, interesting quote in the article:
I’d be curious to know if the church ever condemned these ‘medical proceedures’ that were some common 100 years ago.
N.O.
Comment by not ophelia — February 22, 2006 @ 7:58 am
There’s a huge difference between dispensing advice and exhibitionism/voyeurism/bragging. I’ve enjoyed the posts of the Bloggernackle’s most eloquent posters and see that they recognize the unwritten rule of well-bred society: don’t articulate what happens between your own closed (bedroom and bathroom) doors. Speaking in generalities is fine; naming positions and recounting experiences is fine, but saying what you and your spouse did at what time in what position last night is over the top.
Of course, everyone has a different style of expression, and part of that is the maturity level and education level of the writer. Not everyone went to college or grad school, and not everyone is blessed with a sense of decorum. We should all remember that.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 22, 2006 @ 8:04 am
Kerik,
I know it’s not your concern but the Bloggernacle has had a few good exchanges on the celestial sex subject recently. If you have time check this thread out (it links to other discussions):
http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2005/12/the-larry-king-rule/#more-1619
Wouldn’t it be terrible if there was no celestial sex?
Comment by Carlton — February 22, 2006 @ 12:55 pm
I thought interviews were the same for men and women, but I specifically remember being asked about masturbation as a teeenager, my wife says she was only asked about chastity, never specifics. I don’t remember it being asked after my mission though.
Did these people complaining about the thread read all 240 posts before posting their complaints? Because I’m confused about the titilation aspect, most of it seems educational rather than sexually graphic. Saying anal sex is pleasurable is a whole lot different than graphically describing anal sex.
Comment by jjohnsen — February 22, 2006 @ 1:33 pm
I have never been asked about masturbation in an interview, it’s always been “chasity.” I think that the guidelines about masturbation are just for boys. Maybe I’m being sexist, but women often have trouble becoming comfortable with themselves as sexual beings because of how we are raised and whatnot. So while masturbation may lead to errant behavior and marital problems for young men, I don’t think the same is true of young women. In fact I’d be willing to say that exploration and familiarity with her body would help a young woman increase her enjoyment of marital intercourse. And isn’t *the* talk on masturbation titled *To the young men of the church”?
Comment by Starfoxy — February 22, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
The talk delivered by Elder Packer given in the 70’s in a Priesthood session is in fact entitled, “To the Young Men of the Church.” As a physician who has studied human sexuality from a “world perspective” the “solo sex” activity of young men is about 90% compared to just over 50% for young women. That means that the average worldly young woman is likely to be living the law of chastity without any instruction on the neccessity thereof. This is more likely to explain the difference in emphasis in the interview setting. I find it very unlikely that my Heavenly Father would hold me guilty for something that I’m specifically counseled to avoid while not holdind my sister accountable so that she could “explore and become familiar with” herself so that she could be a better spouse in some future setting.
Comment by Dr. R — February 22, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
No offence Dr. R,
But we don’t know you from a hole in the ground and you setting yourself up as an expert here makes me really twitchy. I’m pretty much uncomfortable with any kind of posturing, and this type particularly. Dr. R.
If you can’t make a solid point without flashing your credentials,
“as a physician” then chances are you don’t have a solid point.
Sorry to be harsh, you really could be the doctor you say you are, but it doen’t really matter in the forum, especially since we don’t know you. It’s just that posturing and elitism are both pet peeves of mine and you’ve brushed them both the wrong way.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 22, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
okay, N.O., you Kill me!
Kill. Me.
I love it when you come up with this stuff. And you do. You always do.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 22, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
I once heard someone say that in boys, 99% do and the other 1% lie about it.
My big concern is that as a boy, masturbation caused me a great deal of guilt and self doubt. I wasn’t aware that anyone else did it, and while my father had talked to me about it, I was convinced it was a TERRIBLE evil. It was a constant struggle in my life as a teen. I also believe that it was a great opportunity for Satan to go to work on me. Guilt may have some redeeming properties, but I think the Adversary uses guilt far more than God.
So, when it’s time to discuss this with my boys, how will I go about it? I’m not sure. I’d like them to practice some self-restraint, but I’m not so dumb as to think that my wishes and a few talks will curb it so much. I don’t want them to beat themselves up over it. It’s a tough call. How do we teach our boys to keep chaste, knowing that they will fail… A LOT!?
Andonanon
Comment by Andonandanon — February 22, 2006 @ 5:28 pm
Maybe I’ll just take my credentials and leave. But if you were the “enlightened individualist” that you claim to be, you might first check my statements in any text on human sexuality for their veracity before slamming someone for telling “the truth.”
Comment by Dr. R — February 22, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
Ok
I am an unconventional mormon fella, My wife got me reading this page, and I have had rather a good laugh, . Number 65, your BYU professor is on crack, and has too many latent issues to discuss here.
So I will tell you my 2 cents worth. I am too unconventional for most people. Shaved head, Tattoos, earrings, and yes I have a temple reccomend. I have had to accept the fact that most members want the world to have a set of rules, that can apply to everything, and not have to think themselves around it. (and I drink Alcohol free beer, never drank the real stuff, and my bishop is totally cool with it, so was my mission president)
I have only seen one place that says oral sex is wrong, that was in Mormon Doctrine, (AKA the stick of Bruce) . Now The Prophets have never endorsed this book as standard and what we all should take as solid fact or follow to the T.. Even the Prophet said women should have one set of peircings, and that is all. Well, I have asked this, will my earrings, and tattoos keep me out of the temple, no, are they considered sins, no. NOWHERE have I found any prophet saying that oral, and anal sex within the confinds of marraige is wrong and a sin. Anyone who says it is, and hangs up on that, is what I call an apostate and living under self imposed doctorine. (and thier wives are really missing out). We just had a baby, and my wife has had little interest in sex. So I went surfing websites to see what I could to to get her interest in it again. The best website, Was not pornographic, had no pics or diagrams taught me the greatest things to do to get my wifes interest back. I thought I was the oral sex master, till this site (probably maintained by a bunch of lesbians) gave me the know all crash course. I love my wife, and she is happy with what I learned. Now, am I breaking any commandments, ? ? ? I dare anyone to say that I am …
Comment by BaldPunkrockDiety — February 22, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
I’m a little confused. We’re not okay with some guy calling himself a doctor and giving his take on masturbation, but we are okay with some link to a publication that gives perhaps the most novel take on women’s health I’ve ever heard of, and does so without citation. That might lead one to believe that it’s less about the lack of ability to double-check credentials, and more about the point being made that makes one “twitchy.”
Furthermore, I’m not sure what N.O.’s post does to further the conversation. Even if all stated there is true, then all we’ve got is a situation where women were never instructed masturbation was in error. That’s not much different from any other transgression in ignorance. That isn’t the fact scenario that has been discussed here, however. Here, the facts are that instruction has been given not to masturbate, and the debate is now whether such instruction is correct. That is, N.O. speaks to sin in ignorance; this thread has been about whether the church is right that it is a sin. Accordingly, I am having a difficult time seeing the correlation. Any help?
Comment by jimbob — February 22, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
Citing a BKP circa 1976 talk is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. So learned Physician, Dr. R, please enlighten us with your esteemed opinion on the more recent popularly reported medical literature that indicates life-long frequent ejaculators are more fertile, potent and have significantly fewer prostate problems in old age that their more restrained counterparts?
To all the masturphobes out there: the boys are also only asked now: “do you live the law of chastity?”, at least in the places we’ve lived. It’s no longer the CofJCofLDS of Bishops obsessed with boy’s self pleasure that I grew up in. I will again point out the most recent Strength of Youth booklet is silent on the subject. The church has moved on from this. Masturbation is not a LofC issue. Get over it! Please!
Oh, and I apologize if someone already brought this up as this thread is pushing towards 300 comments, but some young women with menstrual cramps find masturbation provides very effective rapid relief. If someone is going to rationalize that as sinful, let me bluntly state you’re beneath contempt, at least IMHO.
Why is it we all here belong to a church that has a well established tradition of virtually never refuting a past erroneous teaching, but one of just moving on to improved teachings or practices as more light and knowledge becomes available, and yet many members who prefer the old abandoned way then say that remains policy, doctrine or tradition until the church formally refutes it? That’s just not how this church traditionally operates. Why should your gospel hobby be an exception? You might has well be spouting BY’s embarrassing old Mark of Cain bigotry as gospel.
Comment by Steve EM — February 22, 2006 @ 6:30 pm
oh yeah , In Joseph Smiths day, riding in the same saddle with a woman ye were not wed to, well that was grounds for excomunication…
tradition verses doctorine?
Comment by BaldPunkrockDiety — February 22, 2006 @ 7:59 pm
Ok, I must admit I think we’re snarking in excess at the Doctor. When I offer my opinion on literary matters I often state my credentials, not as a means of intimidating others but rather to show that I have thought seriously about the matter and may have a smidge of ethos. Nothing wrong with ethos, ladies and gentlemen, even if you do agree with the orator’s opinions. He may have been attempting a snotty superiority, but perhaps not. Why not extend the benefit of the doubt we all like to receive when we speak against the norm?
BTW: There are only two groups of people. Those who masterbate and those who sing a little song instead.
What’s that you ask? What song do they sing?
Quess we know which group you’re in.
(Forgive me. DH loves that stupid joke and I’ve never encountered a reason to use it before. ;).
Comment by Janet — February 22, 2006 @ 8:01 pm
Question for those of you condemning masturbation:
My wife has put our sex life on hold for the past year because of her dealing with recovered memory of childhood sexual abuse. She’s seeing a professional counselor who is making progress and helping, and she is feeling so much better about her life and everything, but isn’t quite ready to return to regular sexual expression (and it’s really heart-rending to have her burst into tears when she climaxes and sobs uncontrollably for hours afterwards) — it’s too painful for her, and she doesn’t want to confuse me with her abuser, etc.
In the meantime she has given me the green light to “take care of my own needs”, with only one caveat, asking me to not resort to porn in the process (I agreed).
Given that I have a normal to high male libido (my guess), am I a sinner if I masturbate? Just curious if there’s any gray in your black and white views…?
Comment by AnonyGrayMouse — February 22, 2006 @ 8:04 pm
Honestly, fmhLisa, why is this blog public if you don’t want the opinions of others? I didn’t think Dr. R was setting himself up as an expert–his mentioning that he’s a physician simply indicated (to me at least) that he may have more or different information than has been previously cited, such as the ratio mentioned. He’s no more expert in his opinion than you are in your opinion that masterbation should be accepted as okay church policy.
Why so quick to judge and distrust? He may not be a doctor, but I’m also not a kangaroo. “We don’t know you from a hole in the ground..” Careful, your clique is showing.
Comment by Kanga — February 22, 2006 @ 9:19 pm
So if they don’t ask specifics it’s not against the law of chastity anymore? Huh?
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 23, 2006 @ 1:15 am
Re: #291 — We are also not asked specifics about being honest with our fellow man (anyone download music recently?), living the Word of Wisdom (teriyaki sauce has rice wine as one of its ingredients), or attending meetings (ever skip a meeting just because you didn’t want to go?). The Lord–and bishops–trust us to examine our own conduct and answer truthfully without requiring an inquisition. As a convert, I was always terrified that recommend interviews would be a creepy interrogation, but I have always felt comfortable and supported, even when I did have issues that required repentance.
I do see what you’re getting at, and even I’m not entirely sure that a subtle change in language in the FTSOY brochure necessarily implies a change in policy. But all the same, Mormonism actually does support the exercise of free will in its doctrine, and the whole “slothful is the servant who must be commanded in all things” is part of that.
Comment by Bro. Jones — February 23, 2006 @ 1:46 am
Oh, also I’d like to point out that I’ve appreciated this thread. Folks who find this “titillating” are the types who are incapable of mentioning sex in any form. The anonymity of the Internet has allowed us a frank, respectful (and pretty clean) discussion forum, and that’s all good. I’m positive most of the anons here are regular posters in the ‘nacle, and I think we’ve all enjoyed being able to talk about this stuff in this forum without having to see each other in church on Sunday and recall delicate bits of intimate information.
Comment by Bro. Jones — February 23, 2006 @ 1:50 am
That is not necessarily true. I have avoided reading most of this thread because I find it way too titillating. But I am by no means a prude. I am a single adult trying to live the law of chastity, and if I read things like this I have no outlet for the desires they stir up.
Comment by anonymostly — February 23, 2006 @ 7:32 am
Kanga,
If you can honestly read through my 400 plus posts on this site and say you don’t know me from a hole in the ground, then I’m afraid you’re never going to know me. And I do think we get to konw and trust each other, I’m much more likely to weigh your opinion with seriousness, even if you are a kangaroo, than someone who showed up yesterday. It’s just the way I work. All you have to do to join the clique is spend enough time commenting that I get a feel for who you are.
Janet,
I think the difference between mentioning you study literature in a discussion on books, and Dr. R’s mention that he is a physician is that his being a physician wasn’t particularly relevant to this discussion or the topic on which he posted. I can’t see any insight that he’s provided that any one of us couldn’t have (and did) mention without any formal medical training or experience. Knowing that boys are more likely to masterbate is common knowledge . . . sorry don’t have to be an “expert” to know that. I honestly don’t think I would have minded so much if his pointed attempts to set himself up as a doctor actually did reveal a depth of knowledge or experience or a view into the world that the rest of us aren’t privy too. But none of that happened, we just got some prosaic opinions from “a physician”, and I think putting it your “name” is just snobbery. And I’d think the same about you if you’d chosen “lit phd” as your handle.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 23, 2006 @ 7:45 am
jimbob,
I don’t think N.O. was speaking to anything except the claim that “society” universally condemned masterbation prior to the church breaking silence on the subject.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 23, 2006 @ 7:55 am
Well, Bro. Jones, by that logic, I guess I understand why many of my single friends don’t consider premaritial sex against the law of chastity either. They’re getting on in years and rationalize or justify having sex the same way they do masturbation even though when they were younger they were taught that both were against the law of chastity. I guess since the bishop doesn’t ask specifics, whatever they believe (or want to believe) is true goes.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 23, 2006 @ 8:21 am
fmhLisa,
I think I know enough to realize that you’re sensitive about having or not having letters after your name. If you want people to brush off their educational or professional successes to make yourself feel better, go right ahead. But their is real validity in someone actually knowing more than you do because they studied it at university for 4, 8, or 12+ years. Maybe you should have engaged the Dr. more and asked his clinical opinion about any number of sex topics. Pity, we all might have learned something.
Comment by Kanga — February 23, 2006 @ 8:25 am
Oops, typing too fast. “Their” is of course “there.”
Comment by Kanga — February 23, 2006 @ 8:27 am
#285
I cited to a book review I’d linked to the side blog. But in case anyone missed it:
Here is the cite to the book review Forbidden Technology that I pulled the quote from.
And here is a link to the book itself: The Technology of Orgasm; “Hysteria,” the Vibrator, and Women’s Sexual Satisfaction. By Rachel P. Maines. The Johns Hopkins University Press, 1999.
FWIW, the author won the American Historical Association’s Herbert Feis Prize for her scholarship in this area.
N.O.
Comment by not ophelia — February 23, 2006 @ 8:33 am
Hooray. I did so want to be the 300th comment.
I think everyone is being just a little quick on the draw over this Dr. R business (Lisa included, IMHO, but Lisa can tell me to go hang if she wants to). Can’t we all just get along? Or, barring that, can’t we all just stay on topic?
Emily Summerhays, BA, MA, Peacemaker Extraordinaire
Comment by EmilyS — February 23, 2006 @ 8:34 am
Blast. 301.
Comment by EmilyS — February 23, 2006 @ 8:34 am
Kanga,
It could be that I’m being an oversentive ignorant housewife. But the truth is, I’m generally not put-off by people’s expertise. I am put off by Dr. R. because he’s got the tone of it all wrong, and I think that matters.
I’m all for people being educated, and using that education in any way they see fit, including telling us about it on blogs when it gives us insight into their opinion. I don’t think his expertise was relevant here, as anything other than a status marker. If you can show me any different I’d be glad to consider that I’m wrong.
And if Dr. R wants to give us some real medical insight into sexual issues, I’m all for that too. He has yet to do so. All we know so far is that boys masturbate more than girls, and that he thinks that it’s all bad, and that he’s a doctor.
I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. I mean seriously, look at this thread, all kinds of people don’t agree with me. I’m totally fine with that. And I don’t expect people to hide their areas of expertise or their education. I just expect them to make it relevant to the conversation rather than just dropping it around to make themselves feel important.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 23, 2006 @ 8:55 am
And now I’m off to my job as a pre-school teaching assistant. Where I’m highly expert at wiping noses, die-cutting, and preventing the ingestion of glue.
None of which has anything to do with SEX. . . . which as Emily pointed out, is the topic.
/thread jack
Comment by fMhLisa — February 23, 2006 @ 8:56 am
Steve,
I’m asking for the second time: do you have anything more specific than your unique interpretation of the FSoY pamphlet as evidence of a “policy change”? If that’s the whole of your argument–and it appears to be–I’d say you’re on far shakier ground than someone relying on a 1976 talk by a still-living apostle. Perhaps it’s time you started looking at how far “down the bottom of the barrel” you’re looking for your own support.
Comment by jimbob — February 23, 2006 @ 9:44 am
N.O.,
My problem was less with whether the book was for real, and more about the convenience of the claim of inability to review credentials. In my example, both your book and Dr. R’s comments could only be verified with some extra effort, but Lisa was only concerned with the latter.
As for the book itself, I stand by my original position. If masturbation is truly against the LOC, then the fact that cramps could be ameliorated by through masturbation should be irrelevant to those wishing to obey the LOC. I’m sure my hunger while fasting could also be ameliorated by eating too; that doesn’t change the fact thatI’ve been asked not to eat on fast Sunday. Indeed, I assume that we all have made physical sacrifices in the name of a higher law.
Comment by jimbob — February 23, 2006 @ 9:56 am
Jimbob,
You’re not the first person that I’ve communicated with on this subject through a time displaced wormhole. It’s 2006 and I’m a member of the CofJCofLDS. You’re in the church I grew up in, the CofJCofLDS of the leaders obsessed with youth masturbation. Once BKP has passed on to his reward, that church will be a distant memory. As a teen, I joined the church (was born Catholic) and soon found out about the irrational LDS obsession with youth self pleasure. At 15, after becoming sexually active with my first gf and experimenting with drugs, I even had a Bishop who kept fixating on masturbation, when I had much bigger problems he seemed to ignore. Fortunately, I ended up finding Jesus on my own in spite of him.
For the record, I was never asked by a SP or my second MP, but even had a Bishop ask after my mission. I remember the dork calling me in to discuss allegations that I was banging my gf. I seem to remember some rats reported we often slept in each other’s rooms and condoms where found in the trash, or some BS like that. I just remember saying there was nothing to discuss, when the Bishop switched the subject to masturbation! I did get a laugh out of him when I said “and just why would someone jerk-off with a condom?”
Sometime in the last generation the church moved from having Bishops badger young people about this to the current situation were they are asked the same question as married adults: “Do you live the law of chastity”. So, I say the church has moved on from BKP, based on my experience that none of my kids have ever been asked about it by Bishops, SPs or MPs. If we are in disagreement that that is a huge (and positive) change, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. In any event, I know BKP had nothing to do with the change, but I am most grateful to whoever did, for without it, I would have pulled my family from the church rather than have them subjected to the same harmful nonsense I was. While a believing LDS, protecting my family from psychological abuse comes first.
My wife and I teach our kids that masturbation is normal healthy adolescent and single adult private behavior, part of reproductive health, preparation for a healthy and happy marriage, etc and should only be a concern if it becomes obsessive and they find it interferes with all the other things going on in their lives. We make clear that Bishops are human and make mistakes and if the Bishop or church leader initiates questions or begins to pry into anything they don’t wish to volunteer, they don’t have to. We also specifically use masturbation and sexual orientation as examples of private subjects, that if raised by the Bishop, means a line of respect for them has been crossed and they should leave immediaetly in such an event. So far, none of them have needed to act on that advice.
Things were so bad in the church I grew up in, I remember getting threatened with being sent home by my first MP in our first meeting after he asked me if I masturbate and if I had any homosexual tendencies. I wasn’t a freaking kid anymore, nor a virgin, and was so insulted that I flippantly told him off, “I don’t know you. But if you really want to know, I’ve _____ _____ and ____ and love it, and I now know I need to wait for marriage. And if you ask me those questions again, we’re gonna have a fist fight.” Praise Jesus my kids can participate in the church without that rude and abusive BS.
Comment by Steve EM — February 23, 2006 @ 11:36 am
Need a bit of advice-
My wife and I have been married for almost 5 years, and have a great marriage, but are having a tough time sexually. Things began great, we were both pretty open (oral, positions, agreed on frequency, etc) for the first few years. A couple of years ago, we talked about “spicing things up”, bought a vibrator, and she LOVED it. Whereas before she was having multiple O’s a few times per year, now it was a regular occurance. The problem is that now after a couple of years, she can’t have an orgasm without the “bullet”, and she can only have one in the missionary position. She enjoys other positions less and less, no longer is crazy about oral, etc. It’s really odd. Things were great, we tried something new, and then became dependent upon it. I love my wife and would never say this, but sex is becoming boring- especially compared to what we used to have. She’s also becoming distressed by the fact that she doesn’t like manual or oral stimulation any more, and that we’re only doing it in one position.
Any thoughts?
Comment by super — February 23, 2006 @ 12:19 pm
Steve EM,
This idea you’re promoting that the church’s position on masturbation has become more permissive in recent years is utterly and absolutely false. You’ve claimed twice now that For the Strength of Youth says nothing about masturbation, ignoring my post where I quoted the relevant section. And now you’re trying to claim that Elder Packer’s talk in the 70’s was the last thing said on the subject, which is ridiculous. There have been at least half a dozen talks by apostles in the last few years that have stated that masturbation is wrong (see Elder Scott’s October 1994 address for one example).
It’s one thing to disagree with the position of the church leaders. But it’s another thing to misrepresent their position.
Comment by yet another anon — February 23, 2006 @ 1:06 pm
I think “yet another anon” stated my position clearly, so I’ll leave that where it is, but also want to point out that your logic vis-a-vis your kids and the Bishop is baffling to me. If masturbation is sinful (and so far you’ve only given me some odd and unsupported speculation to the contrary), and a member is doing it, then it would be the Bishop’s business, wouldn’t it? Isn’t helping members overcome sin his job? Would you be equally offended if he specifcally asked your child if s/he had ever stolen from a department store? And if s/he had, would it be psycological abuse for a Bishop to call him or her to repentance?
Perhaps you can have specific conversation with your Bishop. I’d love to hear his reaction to whether he thinks he’s asking about masturbation when he asks your kids about chastity. My guess is that he’s been “physcologically abusing” your kids for years, but you’ve been so excited by your delusion of doctrinal change, you’ve missed it.
But what would I know? I’ve never challenged a priesthood leader to a fist fight.
Comment by jimbob — February 23, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
Sorry “yet another anon”, but at over 300 comments and my not dropping in for a number of days, please forgive me for missing some comments. What comment number has the SofY quote? And is it the most recent version?
I will say words have meaning, and I never claimed BKP’s circa 1976 talk was the last word on the subject. What I did say was citing a talk from 30 years ago was scraping the bottom of the barrel, especially in a church that traditionally doesn’t formally correct past erroneous teachings. If masturbation hasn’t been openly discussed by a GA in twelve years, the church, beyond a few holdout apostles, has indeed moved on from this silly obsession.
I suppose you still advocate BY’s teachings that women shouldn’t color their hair, use Physicians to assist child birth or that people of African descent bear the Mark of Cain? There are all sort of things the church has moved on from, obsession with masturbation is one of them.
Comment by Steve EM — February 23, 2006 @ 1:38 pm
OK jimbob, when did you stop beating your wife?
Some questions are abusive and should be ignored.
Comment by Steve EM — February 23, 2006 @ 1:44 pm
I’ve noticed there are a lot of difficult questions that go unanswered here because of supposed complaints to form. Rephrase it in whatever way makes you least offended but still asks my question and then answer it. It goes to the heart of your contention.
And I’ve never beat my wife. It’s not a particularly difficult question to answer.
Comment by jimbob — February 23, 2006 @ 2:28 pm
Hehe…thanks for the interesting thread. My DH was quite shocked when he sat down to the computer this morning and found the notes I’d written about different vibrators and the Kama Sutra. I’m sure he’ll get over it quickly and be quite grateful that my horizons have been broadened.
Comment by Lori — February 23, 2006 @ 2:30 pm
Wow. Lots of opinions here, and it’s been over a week since the original article! I feel like I’m in an episode of “The Truman Show”, will it ever end?
The first few hundred posts were a great help to DH and me. There’s been a -serious- lack of desire since the first kid was born, six years ago! But now it seems like we’re just arguing back and forth, what’s ok, what’s not ok, you should be exed, follow the prophet but not one from a hundred years ago, etc. IMHO, aside from offering some friendly advice, NONE of us should be spouting what we -think- is (or isn’t) official doctrine.
Our relationship with the Father is very personal, and only through prayer can we find out what we think is best for us. As individuals. Not for everyone else. I think that that’s why so many of the “rules” of the church are extremely vague. I.E., the WoW. It doesn’t say no coffee or Coke, it gives us a guideline and leaves it to us to determine what it means.
Just my 2 cents!
Comment by SalGal — February 23, 2006 @ 3:14 pm
Jimbob and steveem,
Can we please just drop it?
I think we all clearly understand your positions concerning masterbation…
Steve EM for
Jimbob against
got it….I think you both are acting kinda pig headed , and you keep reitterating all your previous argumeents. It is time to agree to disagree and perhaps comment on the posts original subject : married sex.
Anything new y’all would like to add?
Comment by state the obvious girl — February 23, 2006 @ 3:15 pm
OK jimbob,
Not to ignore your question, yes, I would be deeply offended if a church leader asked me if I stole from a department store, and would be outraged if one of my children where asked such an accusatory, disrespectful question out of the blue. Similarly, I was offended by my first dorky MP asking about masturbation in a first meeting like, “How was your flight?”…………….. “Good, do you masturbate?” The offence turned to outrage when he then asked if I was homosexual. It was in the late 70’s and I took it as an affront that I was perhaps less than manly. My reaction to his offensive inquiry was a normal one for a straight, sexually confident, 19-20 male of that era. On thing definitely hasn’t changed: people who tolerate less than courteous behavior from others lack self respect.
I’ll add that I was not offended by the Bishop inquiring about fornication after my mission. He was following up on a specific matter some rat(s) unfortunately dumped on him. Fortunately, for both of us, I was too mature at that point to be bullied by authority and quickly disposed of the problem for both of us. Now, when he asked about masturbation, he was just being silly, and I couldn’t resist tweaking his nose with it.
Comment by Steve EM — February 23, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
Maybe bishops think that members LIKE talking about sex and aren’t squeamish about it (he he)… (just bringing it back to the topic). What’s wrong with answering yes or no? Why is that question more offensive than asking if you smoke crack? The answer to whether you have sex/masturbate and whether you smoke crack should be NO in both cases, for active, temple-worthy Latter-day Saints, especially single ones (in the masturbation case)…
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 23, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
I think both questions are offensive and accusatory.
Comment by Steve EM — February 23, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
Hey jimbob and Steve EM;
Could you take your disagreement off this thread? Maybe this thread has run it’s course, but there could still be some useful discussion if you guys weren’t monopolizing the place.
Comment by Another anon — February 23, 2006 @ 4:52 pm
Well “Another anon”, if someone has advice for “super” #308, for example, or wants to otherwise comment, I wasn’t aware I was hindering them from doing so.
Comment by Steve EM — February 23, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
I agree with Comment #282. I am a mid-40’s man who grew up in a part-member family during the Kimball and BKP era. I too was afflicted with deep guilt over my fairly frequent masturbation. I had read SWK’s The Mircacle of Forgiveness wherein he says that “… no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this heinous habit” or something to that effect. I admit I STILL do this from time to time. What do I tell my 11 year old son about this? I don’t want him to get out of control over this, but it is going to happen, and I’d rather that we two can talk about it and not have him go on the same guilt trip as me.
By the way, our former bishop asked the boys in the ward “When was the last time you masturbated?” which implies and assumes participation in that activity, as opposed to “Do you masturbate?” or “Do you keep the LoC?” which do not. He felt that they all do at one time or another and this at least cracked the ice and made it easier for the boy to be candid with him as feeling such a strong tendancy to not disclose this to the bishop.
Comment by New Guy — February 23, 2006 @ 6:40 pm
New Guy - I think you kind of answered your own question. You said ” I’d rather that we two can talk about it” - and that’s exactly what you should do. I think as part of the ’sex is bad’ mentality that is often taught, and the embaressment that ensues, leads to not really talking at all. Talking with our children is the best thing we can do, in an open and honest way. As to what you tell him - I think that’s your call as his father.
Comment by Rebecca — February 24, 2006 @ 8:15 am
New Guy,
You know my opinion on this. Break the cycle for the sake of your kids, both male and female.
BTW, your former Bishop was abusing his authority with that cute little manipulative, accusatory and presumptive question. But, you’ve given me a theme for my next turn at family home evening: If a church leader makes a “mistake” by asking a disrespectful question, either end the conversation and leave or throw it right back at them with a “well, when was the last time you did?” Anyhow, if a Bishop pulled that crap with my kids, he’d either be apologizing to them promptly, or we’d be attending another ward.
We’re really doing our kids a gross disservice if we teach them to let others, including church leaders, manipulate them like that. People with any self respect won’t tolerate it. Could rogue Bishops be a small part of our retention problem?
Comment by Steve EM — February 24, 2006 @ 8:43 am
Super #308,
I feel like you really deserve an answer to your question, and I’ll do my best to help . . . but take everything I say with a big ol grain of salt because I don’t know you at all, and I’m not a sex therapist or anything, just speaking from my own experience.
This may not apply at all, just throwing out possibilities, but have you taken a really good look at your relationship? For women, sex almost never starts out being about positions, toys, or even orgasms, it’s all about the relationships. If she’s okay with you, if she feels safe with you, if she feels like you love her, if she feels close to you, then she’s going to be a lot more open to trying different things. If there’s a problem then chances are she’s going to want to get from point a to point b as fast and effortlessly as possible.
Also . . . could be . . . kids. I don’t know if you have any but it certainly changed my sex life. Do you guys make time for sex, do you have a safe private place for it? Is she worried about them either finding you or hurting themselves while you’re busy with other stuff? Is she just too tired to put effort into it, is there any postpartum depression or hormone imbalances that are affecting her libedo? She may be fine with you, but her body is not interested in sex, so she’s just “enduring” silently for your sake because she doesn’t want you to feel unloved.
Regardless of what it is . . . it sounds like her goal is to get it over with as quickly as possible, and you both need to figure out why. She may not know herself, explore your options.
you probably need to have a really open dialogue and put forward the possibilities, gnaw on them a while, and if she does admit to some issues in the relationship, you need to own up to your responsiblities and make some changes. Ditto for her.
That’s my best shot. Hope it helps.
Comment by fMhLisa — February 24, 2006 @ 8:48 am
Just a few thoughts and reactions from someone who has been too bashful to participate in this thread until now …
First, I never had much time to read through all of this thread carefully and even today I didn’t — but at least I was able to scroll through for the most part and read some of it. All I can say is wow — just about everything a LDS person could be concerned about or have questions about has come out of the box here. What a wide variety of thoughts and opinions on matters that are difficult for many of us to talk about but that are probably close to our hearts. I have to say that I think frank discussion by mature adults of these questions may have some real positive purposes.
I thought Not Ophelia’s post about women’s hysteria and its medical treatment was amusing to say the least. The use of the name “Chattanooga” for that type of device — hilarious.
One thing I think we LDS people need to beware of is the use of certain traditional phraseology that we ‘Naclers use all the time but that could be kind of funny-sounding when used in the context of a discussion on sex. I think phrases such as “slippery slopes” and “people in leadership positions” should be changed to something else in this kind of discussion. Otherwise it just makes me laugh.
Comment by danithew — February 24, 2006 @ 9:14 am
re: #306
This reminds me of some discussions from my youth about ‘is it OK to drink wine/coffee if your MD said you needed to.’ The answer was inevitably yes. Interesting the deference to the medical community. OTOH, it would also seem if an average modern LDS women were ever faced with a ‘hysteria’ diagnosis, the LDS community would feel her much more justified treating the ‘condition’ with strong, nasty side-effect inducing pharmaceuticals than to self-treat with a vibrator.
What I found interesting about the book review [I haven’t read the actual book] is that until the advent of pornographic films, women’s orgasm seemed to be considered more stress relief and have little to do with sex. Of course men’s orgasm [whether partner or self-induced] is physiologically tied to the sex act. [i.e. to ejaculation] Women’s? There are millions of victims of FGM in Africa and such places who have never/can never have an orgasm and still have sex and children. Female orgasm can certainly be related to sex, but it is neither integral to nor limited to reproduction.
Anyway, it makes me wonder if perhaps in earlier times [i.e. pre-20th century] ‘hysterical paroxisms’ weren’t as culturally tied to sex and therefore did not elicit the same prohibition against masterbation as men’s — assuming such prohibitions existed at all back then.
N.O.
Comment by not ophelia — February 24, 2006 @ 10:49 am
I think the question of whether or not the bishop’s question is inappropriate is whether it’s appropriate AT ALL for church leaders to question our devotion or actions.
There is certainly some inappropriateness for a bishop to ask young teens, unmarried men and women, etc. whether they keep the law of chastity and ALL that implies. It’s notbody’s business whether a youth or young adult or older single adult has any kind of sexual experience, alone or with anyone else (i.e. masturbation or fornication). But it’s not just some rogue bishops who ask this question–whehter in detail or obliquely. The question is supposed to be asked, but should it? It’s simply and utterly inappropriate, more and more that I think of it.
The bishop is sitting behind a desk, hands hidden, talking to little teenage girls and unmarried adults and asking them whether they keep the law of chastity. Some bishops pry and ask for details. Not to mention in church courts, where a bunch of men grill women about their sexual activities. It’s just plain inappropriate.
Comment by Anony (not the same as anony for now) — February 24, 2006 @ 10:56 am
Obviously, some folks are so busy grinding their axes that they haven’t taken a moment to look up from the grindstone and take notice of the fact that the VAST majority of bishops and other leaders who are placed as judges in the church are extremely sensitive when dealing with issue.
Comment by Jack — February 24, 2006 @ 11:42 am
“…with *this* issue”–I meant to say.
Comment by Jack — February 24, 2006 @ 11:44 am
Just a few references:
I was. As recently as 1999, after which, I was no longer single. (And I didn’t find the question at all offensive. And maybe I’m getting defensive, but I find it disturbing to be calling Church leaders offensive names, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.) I’m a girl, by the way.
From For the Strength of Youth (current version–2001, taken straight from the Church website):
(My emphasis added.)
From the Aaronic Priesthood manual (currently being taught from, and revised in 2002):
(My emphasis added.)
From True to the Faith (current version, updated July 2004):
(My emphasis added.)
Comment by Euphrasie — February 24, 2006 @ 11:53 am
Euphrasie, thank you for providing those cites. I think it is good to hear what the official position is (with apologies to danithew for that phrase).
However, I can see the argument that many, possibly including some posters to this venerable forum, will make: masturbation, as a physical action, and doesn’t necessarily “arouse those emotions.”
If anyone wants to take up this viewpoint, I would urge them to study the physiology of human sexual arousal and orgasm. The release of endorphins and other hormones post-orgasm (commonly referred to as the afterglow [which, btw, is why I will never listen to that LDS musical group]) certainly does create an emotional response. How one deals with it is different, but the emotion is certainly aroused.
Comment by Polly — February 24, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
My Kids SofY booklet is more recent, 2004. I’ll have to re-read it. I will note, they’re not bashing the kids over the head with anti self pleasure stuff.
Polly,
But for many of us masturbation doesn’t compare to sex. With sex, the orgasm is longer and much more intense, and the hormonal rush and euphoric feeling only comes with sex. Male masturbation is more about ejaculation and relief of the constrained plumbing feeling. Yes, there is a intimate fantasy aspect to masturbation, but no way is it a substitute for the real thing. Anyway, I wasn’t at all surprised learning that there are health benefits to frequent ejaculation.
Comment by Steve EM — February 24, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
SteveEM, I certainly wasn’t comparing masturbation to sex with a partner for your, and I will politely disagree with you that the “hormonal rush” and accompanying “eupohric feeling” only comes with sex with a partner. It is a physiological response to arousal and orgasm that doesn’t differentiate the source. I granted that how one deals with the afterglow is different from one person to the next. Certainly, for most it is enhanced by sharing concurrent emotional intimacy with ones spouse.
I am also not convinced of your “contrained plumbing” rationale. While there are benefits to the male prostate from regular ejaculation, I highly doubt that it is limited to masturbatory ejaculation. The same benefits could be achieved by sex with a partner, no?
Comment by Polly — February 24, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
Rosalynde,
I’ve been mulling over your comments for the entire week. If I understand what you wrote, you’re saying that discussing sex openly and in group forums, particularly among church members, possibly leads us to focus on people primarily as sexual partners and not eternal companions. It plays into the current popular view that everybody, male and female, can/should pursue sex solely for the sake of sex, and that anything goes as long as either you or your partner or both of you enjoy it. If that’s what you’re saying, then I agree that that is a possibility, IF that becomes the purpose of those discussions, but only IF we also ignore other significant aspects of LDS “culture” such as our common understanding of who should be having sex, and when, and why. Hopefully we have enough checks and balances in place to effectively prevent that from happening among church members.
I don’t think that any of this leads to sexual activity or expectations at younger ages, or earlier stages in relationships, than we consider appropriate. Teenagers and pre-teens aren’t having sex because the girls have decided that’s what they really want, or because the boys are so very good at making them feel any sort of ecstasy. It still comes down to the boys feeling like they have to be having sex in order to be considered manly, and putting pressure on the girls to accomodate them. That’s not a result of frank talk about sex, that’s a result of insecurities and a need to feel powerful. I’ll admit that the fact that the girls are now expected to enjoy it has removed one layer of protection, because to say “I don’t want to” now means you’re frigid, not virtuous. But that thought process never gets carried far enough–the guys don’t feel guilty if the girls didn’t enjoy it, and they should. Because if someone’s going to use the fact that we can and should enjoy it as a justification for having sex, then by golly he’d better make sure I do in fact enjoy it. Unfortunately the very people who use that argument are the kind of people that only care about what they want, when they want it, and don’t care whether it’s a good idea at the time or if anyone else has fun in the process. Changing that mindset won’t come about because we refuse to talk about how to enjoy the experience. On the other hand, discussing how to enjoy sex won’t sexualize us unless we’re already choosing to treat each other only as sex objects.
I think the expectation that both partners should fully enjoy sex, not just the husband, is essential to being true companions. When we aren’t enjoying it as much as the men, there’s an unspoken assumption that the flaw is in us as women. There’s something wrong with our bodies or our emotions or we’re just not loving enough. I think open discussion of how we can improve the experience would imply instead that when we fail to achieve that full enjoyment, it’s just as much his fault (or more) as ours. And that puts the burden back where it belongs, in my opinion.
Comment by Space Chick — February 24, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
ok, I’m new here, and I have been reading this entire thread. There have been a few things that I have wanted to comment on, before I do, here’s a little about me, so you know my POV.
This will actually be my first contribution to any blog. I have been exploring the blog universe, and have been looking for an interesting place to plant my flag, While I’m neither a feminist, (i’m not even female, although that’s not really required to be a feminist… but that’s another discussion) nor am I a housewife (i’m not even married), but I am Mormon, and have been my entire life. Are single males even allowed here? or will I be run out of town on a rail? Anyways, if I’m not welcome, then take my posts with a grain of salt and bid me adieu.
I found this thread extremely interesting. While I did grow up in the church, I spent the better part of my youth in a predominantly liberal mind frame. I loved talking about sex with my non-member friends. At first it was so exciting because it was so taboo, but then I realized that it was actually really interesting. I was so flabergasted when I heard stories about women who cried the night of their honeymoon because their new husband was just a little over anxious and didn’t really take things as slow as he should have. Or listening to my female friend tell me how she had to explain to her 19 year old BYU roommate exactly how sex was going to work when she got married the next week because she was completely clueless (”he’s going to want to put WHAT? WHERE!?!”). Now that I am a little older, my friends have become a little more sophisticated and on occation, we discuss opinions and preferences. I am always amazed that during these discussions is someone, (usually a female) who is noticably uncomforatble. I hope that they can at least learn something from our discussion and that they will eventually warm up to discussing the issue, especially with their spouse.
edit: I started this post when the posts were back in the 200’s. I forgot and left it, so things may be a bit old, but I still would like to express myself.
Thank you whoever asked what DH meant, I was starting to wonder.
ok… i had a bunch of comments for the discussion between jimbob and steveem. For the record. I take Jimbob’s side. I wanted to comment on the opinion that you should teach your children that masturbation is ok, because they are going to do it anyways, and you don’t want them to feel guilty over it. Why couldn’t you have been MY parents? Life would have been so easy growing up. After you noticed that I never cleaned my room, you would have stopped asking me to. When I kept coming in a hour late, you would just move my curfew back an hour, so I wasn’t breaking the rules and wouldnt’ have to feel bad about it. Bottom line… God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil, knowing (truly knowing, not like your assumption that your children won’t be able to restrain which you falsly pass off as “knowing”) that they were going to do it anyways. Guilt is part of learning and it’s part of the repentance process. Everything else I wanted to say was already stated by 316. Thanks obvious girl!
289: I’m currently dating a girl with a similar problem, her counselor has given her the option of confronting her abuse now, or waiting until after we are married. If she decided to do it after we are married, and the same circumstances present themself… I would want to think that I could restrain myself. Or at least that I should. Even if my wife gave me the “green light”. She is going through some pretty intense stuff, and I would hope that I could help her in any way. If I need to go without for a while, I think I should. (I’m not saying I could… but definatly that I should try)
Anyways, just wanted to say hey, and speak my peace.
Comment by Garrelli — February 24, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
Space Chick,
Fantastic post. I agree with almost everything you say except:
I am not sure how it is for girls, but I was a teenage boy and I don’t think your are right, as a general proposition, about boys. I can assure you that my desire to have sex (never consumated) as a teenager had absolutely nothing to do with the desire to “be a man.” It was a very powerful biological drive, nothing else.
As a boy my friends and I never once discussed (and it never even occured to me) that having sex would make me a man. I proved my masculinity through sports and other outlets, not sex. And I doubt sex is a common way to prove one’s manhood.
Comment by Jason — February 24, 2006 @ 4:33 pm
Garrelli–
I just wanted to tell you that as a woman who experienced both child molestation and sexual assault as an adult (X2), some men can really help where other men have hurt. You have a lot of influence–glad to hear you’re taking it seriously. I was very very lucky to have had my first consensual physical relationship (just a lot of making out–I was pretty prudish) with a non-LDS man who COMPLETELY respected my boundaries even though he wasn’t mormon and had been in sexual relationships before. By ALWAYS putting me first, by listening to my anxiety and quietly holding me when I cried in response to to our first kiss, by absolutely earning my trust, he helped me more than I could ever express. Because he always made the physical part of our relationship about US and not about satisfying his own needs, I realized not only that I could feel good, sexually, but that sexuality could deepen and strengthen a relationship way beyond just shared pleasure. I’m not sure I’d have been brave enough to get married had I not dated this man.
I’m not saying this to pressure you, but rather to assure you that your actions DO matter, and they matter immensely. Frankly, if my first boyfriend had been masturbating so that he could lessen his own sexual pressure and then treat me with respect when we were together, I’m grateful. I’m not saying I think masterbation is OK, exactly, but that his dedication to US as opposed to himself still means the world to me, 13 years later.
Comment by Anon-at-present — February 24, 2006 @ 7:36 pm
In all of the FSOY and other citations about masturbation that have been posted here, it seems like there is the qualifier before marriage. But after marriage, is the big M okay if both partners agree, as in cases of work-related travel, etc?
If your point is that all instances of M are immoral, then try to find a citation that doesn’t have the before marriage stipulation.
Comment by Anon Y. Mus — February 25, 2006 @ 12:38 am
Polly #334, Well I know you’re not advocating frequent sex for teens and singles (Even I don’t recommend it). So, for the unmarried boys/men to have the health benefits of frequent ejaculation, that pretty much leaves masturbation, n’est-ce pas?
Comment by Steve EM — February 25, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
#340
Whether masturbation is a big deal or not, you still need to be really careful with you justifications. There are health benefits from many things we aren’t allowed to do. Take the word of wisdom, for example. There are health benefits to drinking tea, and wine. But I don’t think health benefits are a reason to discard that particular commandment, ’cause the Lord could very well have something else in mind besides physical health when he gave it.
N.O.
Comment by not ophelia — February 25, 2006 @ 6:26 pm
Or the wonderful blessing to single men everywhere–the nocturnal emission. I always said a prayer of thanks when I was so blessed on my mission!
Comment by one who never minds doing that laundry — February 25, 2006 @ 7:15 pm
#342 But not everyone gets to have nocturnal emissions. I know. I only had one during my teenage years - even after going weeks or months without masturbating. When BKP talked about how “the little factory” would release excess all by itself, he was ignoring the variability of human physiology.
Comment by non-a-mus — February 25, 2006 @ 8:43 pm
ISPIRED BY THIS POST:
bought = 1 vibrating penis ring with (ahem) elephant clit stimulator
achieved= amazing orgasm for both involved
Thank You
Comment by should I really... — February 25, 2006 @ 8:44 pm
Well why not, Steve? It’s natural, healthy for your prostate, and I haven’t specifically been asked about it in my temple recommend interview ever. Maybe you should get over it.
Comment by jimbob — February 27, 2006 @ 9:15 am
343: Yeah, I know. Just trying to have a little fun.
Comment by one who never minds doing that laundry — February 27, 2006 @ 9:33 am
fmhLisa,
I think you’ve missed enforecement on this one. Or are you only concerned if people put words in your mouth?
Comment by jimbob — February 27, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
jimbob, give me a break. We’re both in agreement that fornication is contrary to the LofC, we disagree on masturbation. While I think the church over emphasizes the LofC, I don’t think fornicators are temple worthy, even though I used to be one.
Comment by Steve EM — February 27, 2006 @ 3:30 pm
I don’t know. I’m really liking the freedom your narrow view of what is and is not doctrine is providing me. And let’s not forget, the commandment (of the ten commandments) prohibits adultery, not fornication. Even if it wasn’t, those ten commandments came along a long time ago and should probably be revisited in light of today’s society.
Comment by jimbob — February 27, 2006 @ 4:30 pm
wow you guys officilaay killed this thread….
good job
Comment by kristi — February 27, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
that women shouldn’t . . . use Physicians to assist child birth back when Physicians did not wash their hand and were the number one cause of the transmission of diseases that caused death in childbirth?
I’m not sure what the point is there. It was good advice for the time, midwives washed their hands and did a better job then. I’d go to a doctor now, though.
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — February 28, 2006 @ 9:40 pm
Wow - I had no idea there was anything like this out here. I thought I was the only mormon woman who owned a vibrator. I’m actually trying to find advice on how to teach my 14/15 year old Sunday School class about the law of chastity without getting calls from parents later. Haha.
Stuff that’s worked for me and my dh … we go on dates to the “sex toys shop” and get something new to try out. New vibrator, game, edible lingirie .. whatever!! I have a huge basket full of stuff in our closet. The best thing that works for us, though, is COMMUNICATION! Women - talk to your husbands (and visa versa) - preferably during sex - tell him what you like and don’t like. How else is he supposed to know what you’re thinking?? If you haven’t figured out by now that he’s not a mind-reader, you need therapy. When we first got married, my husband couldn’t find my clit with a magnifying glass .. until I showed him where it was. It shouldn’t be embarrassing to talk about. You’re married for crying out loud - if you can’t talk about sex with your husband/wife .. you also need therapy.
Our newest trick is using 2 vibrators at the same time. One for the clit and one inside. Seriously .. do it.
Comment by Pleasently Surprised — March 19, 2006 @ 4:03 am
As I continued reading all the posts on here after I finished posting my last post (totally redundent) … when did it stop being about advice and questions and start being a place to argue about masturbation? Sad! Let’s hear more advice and talk more about sex. Stop arguing and start helping!
Comment by Pleasently Surprised — March 19, 2006 @ 4:34 am
I not married, is it ok for me to massterbae? someone please help!!!!!!!!!
Comment by mys987123 — March 31, 2006 @ 12:02 am
No it’s not mys. Sorry. That’s taught in True to the Faith as well as in the For Strength of Youth pamphlet.
Comment by Reese — March 31, 2006 @ 4:58 am
Ay yi yi, I probably should have gone back and read all 350 responses before I tossed off a response. What a can of worms I stepped into.
Let’s just say my reading of True to the Faith and For the Strength of Youth say it’s not. And my understanding is that it is also the way most people I know read it, including all my local ward and stake leadership as I work with the youth and we’ve just hit this subject hard.
Comment by Reese — March 31, 2006 @ 6:33 am
Pleasantly Suprised,
when I taught the Young Women about chastity, I started the lesson out by writing on the chalkboard “SEX IS GOOD.” They were suprised but I think it set the tone for a great conversation!
Comment by Laura — March 31, 2006 @ 7:51 am
I realize this post is very late in coming, but I just wanted to say that I have appreciated this discussion, which I just discovered. It’s been very informative.
This is my first time posting, but I just wanted to comment on a few of the things that have been said here. First off, I am an active LDS husband and father, and I struggle with the same issues that have already been stated. It is nice to know that many of us struggle with the same issues.
In response to #308, posted by Super, I just wanted to say that I have always resisted the idea of getting a vibrator to use with my wife for the reason that you state. Honestly, I think we have a wonderful intimate relationship, and I have always done the best I can to make it better. Luckily for us, things have been great, and after lots of trial and error (which still continues), I think we are both very happy/satisfied with our progress. My wife has no problems achieving multiple orgasms, and I count us as very fortunate. I have always feared adding something to our relationship that is not “me.” I have no doubt that a vibrator would lead to quick orgasms for my wife, and I do not want to deny her any pleasure, but I also don’t want to be “replaced/supplanted” in any way. Maybe this is completely irrational, and I do not think this applies to anyone other than us, but I would not want my wife to become dependent on a vibrator for pleasure.
Although things are good for us now, it has certainly been a lot of work to get where we are, and I’m sure that things will continue to get better. I am glad that we chose to improve our own abilities in pleasing each other instead of resorting to vibrators. If we had gone another route, I fear we would never have gotten to the point we are at now, in which we are able to satisfy each other with nothing other than ourselves.
I want to emphasize that I have no intention of even suggesting what others should do, and I really hope I don’t offend anyone with what I’ve said. In our case, I think we have been extremely lucky, and I would never want to make my wife go without the full pleasures that come with sex just because I was too proud to admit that I can’t satisfy her without a little help. I have read that many women simply cannot achieve orgasm through the means we employ in our relationship, and I think men should do everything in their power to make sure their wives are getting the pleasure/happiness they deserve from sex. However, for me, I am glad we have gone the route we’ve chosen, and I would only go for the vibrator after careful consideration and prayer.
That was very long-winded, and I apologize, but I kind of want to know what the rest of you think about this opinion. Should recourse to vibrators be had immediately (bring one on the honeymoon, for example), or is it better to hold off? I have a comment on the topic of masturbation, but I’ll put that in another post.
Comment by Anon — May 5, 2006 @ 1:27 pm
This is just me (Anon) continuing on from #358.
With respect to the masturbation issue, I would like to bracket the debate over whether the Church considers it to be against the Law of Chastity. I appreciate both sides, but, in my own opinion, I do believe that the Church teaches that it is a sin. However, that is not my point. My question goes to how to deal with teaching our children they shouldn’t do it (assuming you agree) without causing them the same grief I went through over the issue.
I always masturbated as a teenager, and it always caused me great shame. I realized that most young men did it, but I didn’t realize that a overwhelmingly percentage of young men in the Church also did so. I constantly struggled not to masturbate, and I would succeed for months at a time only to fail and feel like I was worthless and give up trying to stop for another few weeks or months. This cycle continued throughout my teenage years.
As an aside, I have never experienced a nocturnal emission, even when I have gone six months without masturbating. In my dreams, I would always feel so guilty about what I was about to do with a girl that it would wake me up. Believe me, I really wanted those dreams to continue. It was more than a little frustrating, to say the least.
I was always afraid to confess the sin to my bishop, although I think I may have once or twice. Usually, I would manage to stop masturbating and tell myself that I had it under control so that I felt justified in saying that I did obey the LOC. Anyway, the fact that I couldn’t ever seem to completely end the behavior was very difficult on me, and it was quite depressing.
Given that experience, I would be happy if it wasn’t considered a sin, but I really can’t convince myself of that fact as much as I would like to. On the other hand, I finally came to realize (at least in my own opinion) that it wasn’t nearly so bad as I had made it out to be. In fact, worrying about it only made it much worse. I finally (maybe in the mission field) adopted the attitude that I should always strive to avoid masturbating, but that if I did it, I should simply tell Heavenly Father I was sorry, agree to keep trying, and go on with my life.
My first mission president never really disapproved of masturbation. I confessed to him that I had a problem with it soon after arriving in the field, and he basically said, “I knew you were going to say that.” He told me to go on with the work, and not to beat myself up about it. It was a huge relief. I continued the cycle of going for months without masturbating only to fail and start over again. I also confessed to my second mission president because I wasn’t sure if he felt the same way about it. He didn’t chastise me or anything. He simply said that learning to control himself was an important part of his life and that it helped him to be a faithful husband later in life. Again, I was happy with his response. In time, I did come to master my desires, and now that I’m married, it is very easy.
I guess my point is I wish the attitude of my mission presidents had been expressed to me as a young man. I would have been spared a lot of heartache. If I had known that almost everyone had the same problem I did and that it didn’t make me a failure, I would have been a lot happier. I have no problem with bishops asking if my boys obey the law of chastity if their attitude is the same as my two mission presidents. If my sons are punished (denied benefits) for it, then I do have a problem with the question being asked. In other words, I have a problem with the punishment, not the fact that it is wrong. As my sons are still very young, I haven’t had to deal with the issue yet, but I struggle with what to teach them. I want to teach them according to the gospel, but I don’t want them to beat themselves up over something that they will undoubtedly do, nor do I think it appropriate that they be punished for doing something that virtually all young men struggle with. Basically, I want them to learn self-control, but I want them to not develop a complex about it (like I did) and feel badly about themselves for it. Basically, I plan on teaching them that all young men do it even though they shouldn’t. I want them to repent each time, decide to keep trying for self-mastery, and go forward with their lives. In my opinion, the fact that they are trying to avoid it is the important thing, not whether they are successful in doing so. Is this a pipedream?
Comment by LC — May 5, 2006 @ 2:01 pm
The Churches attitude to sex is scary.
The mormon divorce rate is the same as the general populus so the Church really isnt as open to sex as it should be. My wife never really enjoyed sex until we got some toys..I bought 4 off the bat, and now she has a favourite one which is great.
Before she would avoid sex, and I ended up masturbating as 99% of men do (I told her that her brothers and her father do it and its natural) and she said I was selfish. Trust me I would have prefered sex! Besides which if I didnt masturbate I would never be able to keep my sex drive under control, and Ild rather my brain be in control of me! Now we have sex toys life is better as we can both get off.
Guys if your wife is timid then buy a toy and just bring it on when she is horniest, thats 3 weeks after she has her period, a week before her next period. Youll notice as she will wear less clothing.
If shes real timid buy the Hitachi Magic wand back massager as a present and use your imagination. Sex is a gift from God, to think my wife only half enjoyed it for 5 years because we were both virgins on our wedding night, and got no advice seams unfair.
Comment by Logan — June 22, 2006 @ 6:34 am