Guest Post: Women Married to Porn Users
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Jenna writes:
In the 1980s feminists such as Andrea Dworkin got in bed (figuratively, I’m pretty sure about that) with Christian conservatives to denounce pornography. To be sure, each denounced the porn trade for different reasons Dworkin and her cohorts believed that porn taught men to objectify women and thus directly led to violence against women. Christian conservatives believed that it was unholy. And Christian feminists probably thought it was bad for both reasons. Although anti-porn groups were very vocal, they were not particuarly successful.
20 years later, porn is uber-ubiquitous–it is an increasingly visible part of pop culture, due to DVDs, video games, and the Internet. And it is pretty widely accepted too. Even regular television nods and winks to what used to be a marginal porn culture. There is a wide variety out there and a market for almost any fetish or speciality. There is even porn marketed for women. However, it’s mostly the same stuff as before, and it is still mostly aimed at men. Although women can be involved in porn, the addiction is a primarily male problem.
Use of porn by LDS men is very common. If you doubt this, just reference the last few years of conference talks and Ensign articles. Church-affiliated 12 step porn groups are popping up all around the US to address the issue. But it’s a very difficult addiction to beat, and 12-step programs, though useful, don’t “cure” anyone.
So, how does a porn use affect a marriage–more specifically, a Mormon marriage? how does it feel to be the wife of someone who gets his sexual satisfaction from a magazine or movie? how do the constant availability of perfect, but pretend, playmates affect a man’s understanding of the female sexual drive? or his understanding of his own sex drive? what about a woman who is married to a porn user–does knowledge of his use affect her sexual drive? is she better off not knowing? how does an addiction, and the subterfuge that often accompanies it, affect trust? how does it feel to have to deal on a daily basis with an addiction that is imbued with shame, and that is almost a taboo topic? what about women who think that they shouldn’t be upset about it–and who intellectually, at least, see it as a healthy outlet–but who emotionally feel betrayed by it? what about a mormon feminist–how does she bring together the different parts of her world–feminist, religious, and other–to understand and deal with the problem? What can friends do to support people struggling with porn?
I have no personal experience with struggling with porn addiction in myself or my husband. And I feel so lucky because I know LOTS of friends who have this big issue looming over their marriages.
Intellectually I can see it as an outlet, but I think it becomes personal when it’s YOUR husband logging on every night to fantasize about being in other circumstances. It’s something that’s very shameful to admit in real life, but as you said, pop culture makes out like it’s very normal and common and fun. So I don’t know. On one hand, we can’t support people unless we acknowledge it. But on the other, it’s a very private battle.
I’m okay with consensual use (with your husband/wife) on occasion, but who’s to know if they’re going to be someone who develops a Problem? It seems risky, and maybe that’s part of the attraction? Porn interests me from a feminist and social perspective, and it’s interesting to me to see interviews with porn stars and they’re regular people too. But it’s all so fake. I’m just too realistic!
Kerri
Comment by Kerri — May 17, 2006 @ 7:32 pm
No one has posted yet, I see. In the past year, I have seen a few porn discussions on the bloggernacle. I think many posters have not treated the subject with sensitivity. Many posters have not understood that:
1. Porn is “easy” to fall into and many porn addicts were young or naive when they started down the path, and perhaps their first experiences were not sought after
2. It is addictive
3. It is difficult to stop like other addictions
4. Porn warps the sexual psyche and affects future and present sexual relationships
5. There is looking at porn, and then there is masterbation to porn
6. There are various levels of porn, and porn does always try to push the envelope so every year it gets a little more deviant.
I think an LDS wife who has to deal with this problem with her spouse should consider it just like an alcoholic problem.
1. Does he realize it is wrong?
2. Is he willing to try to stop?
3. Is he fulfilling his responsibilities?
I think that any LDS wife is completely justified in feeling betrayed and angry. I think it is wrong. It is in violation of marriage vows. But since no one is perfect, I would expect any LDS friend of mine to expect change from her husband. If he tried to change, then you work on the marriage. You get rid of the internet. You go from there. I would expect it would take years to get back the trust.
If he is unwilling to change? Or if he can’t? That is a different situation.
Comment by jks — May 17, 2006 @ 8:32 pm
I have strong feelings about this subject, although I’d have to write a book to tell the whole story. First, I’d recommend a recent book, “Pornified”. It does have some fairly graphic descriptions of porn however, so be forewarned. My FIL was addicted to porn, for at least the last 10 years of his life. And he was 79 when he died. He had a friend who encouraged him in the habit, and between the two of them, they wasted a lot of money, time, and their dignity. My FIL had been a member of the bishopric, a member of the military, and well-respected in his town. I suspect that he probably had been going to adult stores etc, while he was in the military, and got sucked in that way. After his wife died, he apparently did nothing but hang around with his friend surfing the net for porn, watching porn videos, etc. By the time he died five years later, the house was a wreck, he’d barely left the house to talk to anyone in that five years, and he’d almost quit talking to his children who were trying to intervene. We were left to haul out bags of porn, not to mention, um, sticky underwear. I can’t tell you if this is because he had an addictive personality. I can tell you that it seemed totally against his earlier values, but perhaps that was all just a front. But maybe this kind of stuff is that addictive. I just don’t know.
Comment by anon — May 17, 2006 @ 10:02 pm
It’s funny, but the more time I spend reading LDS blogs, the more I realize I’m very liberal, potentially to the point of not being such a good mormon. Nothing brings out that feeling quite like sex.
I actully think we overstate the porn problem in our society at large. Sexual urges are natural and feel good, which is probably a good thing. I’m somewhat of the opinion that calling sex an addiction is a bit like calling chocolate an addiction (only sex is much more addictive
I came across an interesting blog from a woman caught up in a controversy because she posted some pictures on her website of herself topless. she’s a prof at USC, middle aged, and while her pictures were revealing, and even shot in somewhat suggestive poses, I’m not sure I’d call them porn. Nevertheless, she’s been in the news for it, and posted her somewhat amused response.
An excerpt:
The Puritans loathed the body and tried to exert strict controls on sexuality, particularly female–read The Scarlet Letter for all you’ll ever need to know about this. We continue to have their reactionary discomfort with the body, and so we too find it an object of obsessive fascination. Basically, by making nudity taboo, we’ve guaranteed its centrality. As Feminist Scholar Susan Griffin notes, the priest and the pornographer operate on the same value system–both mark human sexuality as disgusting, and then one says “turn your eyes away,” while the other says, “look here, look here!”
for the whole blog see:
http://www.dianablaine.com/2006/05/boring_lecture_from_the_naked.html
I’m in agreement here that by simply saying “porn BAD” we give more power to pornographers. There has to be a better way of dealing with porn than stigmatizing its use, and I’d love to see us find it. The problem for me with porn is that it seems like when we denounce porn we denounce sexuality with it, and that ultimately undermines any effort we may take to inhibit porn use.
My husband didn’t grow up in this church. I know he’s looked at porn because we’ve talked about it and he’s told me so. That use hasn’t continued into our marriage. At some point he found real, living, breathing women are far more interesting than pictures, and he abandoned his porn use. I don’t know how I’d feel if he was still using porn–probably pretty hurt and inadequate. Actually, I take that back–he’s telling me now he still occasionally looks, but he doesn’t get much out of it (making me feel good :). When he was younger he masturbated to porn, and as he says it, “all [he] got was off.” I don’t think his past porn use negatively impacted his sexual development or any aspect of our married life.
Is porn the real problem here, or is it perhaps symptomatic of a more insidious disrespect for women, or a need to control? Are men who have respect for women less susceptible to porn addiction (not just use)?
Comment by kristine N. — May 17, 2006 @ 10:40 pm
Kerri,
You sound pretty ok with porn “intellectually.” I am not ok with it in any way. Porn shows increasingly more behavior that isn’t normal, but makes it part of the sexual thoughts of mainstream people.
So, even if my son doesn’t watch porn, he is surrounded by a culture that is shaped by porn. There are things that porn says a man should enjoy (or women should enjoy) or that a man should think is sexy. Comments are now made all the time that will affect my son even if he never watches porn.
He will be told by comments and jokes and other references that two women together is considered sexy by men. Why does America currently think this is sexy? I’m blaming porn. Group sex is becoming more mainstream amoung older and younger crowds, and you can guess what I’m blaming for that.
There are more examples that I would prefer not discussing, and some I probably don’t even know about yet.
I believe this will hurt our next generation even more than us.
Comment by jks — May 17, 2006 @ 11:20 pm
Its not just a male issue. Female porn addicts generally read very graphic novels, and the numbers are large and still growing. Somehow society (especially lds society) does not view reading in graphic detail exactly how a man penetrates a woman with the same shame as viewing a picture of if. The majority of porn problems are still male however. Someone mentioned:
“There is looking at porn, and then there is masturbation to porn”
No there isnt. Any man that tells you he only looks is lying. I would guess 99.9 percent masturbate at some point after (or during) viewing it.
A porn addiction is exactly like a drug addiction. Viewing it actually changes your body chemistry - just like getting erect and ejaculating during real sex changes endorphin levels. It needs to be treated just exactly like a substance abuse issue.
Personally, I think any woman that would allow any kind of porn into her relationship - even hard R rated movies that many couples say “get them in the mood” - is a fool and will pay the price in time.
Comment by James — May 18, 2006 @ 12:26 am
I am addicted to pornography, occasionally accompanied by masturbation.
The latter started innocently when I was about 10. The former started in lingerie ads and comic books to augment my fantasies. Then came the internet.
If you want an indepth description of some of the effects of looking at porn on the individual, read the first chapter of Philip Harrison’s “Clean Hands, Pure Heart.” His experiences with guilt, feeling out of control, self-loathing, secrecy, and success punctuated by relapses are similar to my own. My mission was a wonderful break, with few relapses.
I thought marriage would help me get better. Nope. Add more guilt because it’s not just me anymore. Now I’m hurting two, no three, make it four people (we have 2 lovely children). When I told her how bad it really was she was CRUSHED. It’s been 3.5+ years and only in the last 6 months or so has she really had success getting rid of the depression she entered into.
(jks, I loved your comment. Thank you. You mentioned the years it could take to reestablish trust in a porn-infected marriage. If only you weren’t spot on with that, as well as your list of Things Everyone Should Know About The Porn Addict They Love)
She felt (appropriately) as if I were having an affair. I didn’t understand (believe?) that until only a couple of months ago, when one night she was talking seriously of divorce. That word had never ever been heard in our home. She told me that she didn’t know if she had anything to hope for. If I was always going to relapse, why should she bother waiting for me?
I went to my first meeting of the Church-run Addiction Recovery Program (the 12-step thing) that week. I cannot emphasize enough how much of a turning point that was. The Lord gave me a sacred gift the following day. I knew I’d been walking on air all day, but it wasn’t until around noon that I realized what exactly was different: I hadn’t noticed a single female body part. I saw people (particularly women) for what they were. I saw beautiful, wonderful children of God. I experienced one day as someone free from addiction.
The next day was back to normal, and I’m sorry to say I’ve not been relapse-free since. However, now I’m definitely in Recovery, whereas I’d spent the preceding 15+ years in a different state: denial. I HIGHLY recommend the Church’s ARP meetings and Harrison’s book. These are the tools I’ve always needed to help me make my journey back to the Savior.
Kerri, if you think it’s okay now and then for a couple to indulge in porn together, you are foolishly mistaken. It’s NO LESS destructive than occasional crack, cutting, or swinging. You are also misled about porn “stars.” They are not “regular people.” They are addicts just as much as I am. The same self-loathing, numbness, and other wonderful addiction-related experiences are there. Read an interview not published by Playboy, and you’ll see what I mean.
I will add is a few observations:
1) Most who have never had trouble in this arena (including too many priesthood leaders) are INCREDIBLY ignorant about the nature of porn, especially that it is addictive. See jks’ list in #2 above.
2) Latter-day Saint men with this problem are in a tight spot. If they tell other members of the Church they may hear gems like “Just stop” or “Those are normal urges” or “You’re a freak.” If they tell other people they may hear similar lines or even “Alright bro! My favorite site is …”
3) This topic is too taboo. Few who aren’t personally affected seek any understanding of pornography and its effects.
My suggestions:
1) Please do your homework. Learn about the effects of this poison from talks and articles by GAs, Victor Cline, Dean Belnap, other doctors, other ministers/pastors, etc.
2) With your new understanding, gain a little empathy for those of us trapped by these particular chains. Exercise Christlike compassion and love upon hearing someone you know suffers with this (or any other) addiction. The last thing they need to hear is how bad porn is and how they really shouldn’t be looking at it. Believe me, they already know.
3) MOST IMPORTANT: Prevent current curiosity or habits from becoming tomorrow’s habits or addictions. Talk to you kids (especially the boys). Make sure they can approach you about it, and encourage them do so when they see any devilish images. Start with lewd billboards or commercials that you KNOW they see. Then they’ll know what to do when they see something you DON’T know about.
Comment by anonymous — May 18, 2006 @ 1:40 am
Speaking of a porn star’s point of view, I thought this was interesting. This is from a woman who was making porn movies and is now a religious, practicing Christian. She says:
[Pornography is] one of the greatest deceptions of all time. Trust me, I know. I did it all the time, and I did it for the lust of power and the love of money. I never liked [men or] sex… In fact I was more apt to spend time with Jack Daniels than [any other man of my choosing. Who wouldn’t] hate being touched by strangers who care nothing about [you. Who wouldn’t] hate being degraded… Some women hate it so much you can hear them vomiting in the bathroom between scenes… One of my friends went home after a long night of numbing her pain and put a pistol to her head and pulled the trigger. That was her way out.
The truth is there is no fantasy in porn. It’s all a lie. A closer look into the scenes of a porn star’s life will show you a movie [that] industry doesn’t want you to see. The real truth is [if] actresses want to end the shame and trauma of our lives [in that world] we can’t do it alone. We need you… to fight for our freedom and give us back our honor.
We [need] you to throw out our movies and help [us] piece together the shattered fragments of our lives. We need you to pray for us… so God will hear and repair our ruined lives (Shelley Lubben, www.blazingrace.org/thetruth.htm).
Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — May 18, 2006 @ 1:47 am
I’m a man, and one year I had a season of porn use than I hate to admit, but I never got addicted. I think it’s because I sought out healthy relationships and as I developed those, my desire for porn diminished until it wasn’t a struggle anymore. I haven’t had anything but a fleeting desire for porn in a long time; it’s just not a big temptation for me anymore.
On the other hand, I do know other guys who have gotten addicted, and it can be a nightmare. It puts women in a difficult situation because the stronger a woman’s reaction to a man’s porn use, the more a man will loathe himself and turn to porn to anesthetize himself from those feelings.
I think the tendency among women and Church leaders is to show a horrifying picture of the results of porn, and I understand why that needs to be done, but I wish there were more emphasis placed on healthy male development. Scouting used to fulfill that function, but nowadays, Scouting is where a lot of us learn about porn in the first place. But I think parents can do a lot to reinforce healthy habits and interests in their kids so they’re not as susceptible when they eventually get exposed to porn (which they inevitably will).
Comment by a male perspective — May 18, 2006 @ 6:43 am
allow me to be the first anon
I’ve been married 5 years.
My husband was a true addict, a hopeless, self-hating, depressed guy, physically sick from his actions but unable to stop himself. and I had NO clue. We were happy. sure, we bickered, sure he pressured me for sex, nagging, begging, faking pain to get what Pn taught he was entitled to get, but I thought this was all normal marriage stuff. He was loving, sensitive, repsonsible in every other way.
He didn’t tell me about his problem to any degree becuase he “knew” I’d leave. and there were no clues. I’m not naive, I’m no comptuer dummy, he just hid it that well.
Well, when he confessed, it was because he was SO repentant and SO broken that he didn’t care anymore if it did cost our marriage, he had to get healed for himself, and that meant confessing first to me.
that moment changed everything. Instantly, seeing his pain, how disapointed and frustrated he was with his failing to stop by himself, I wans’t angry, I wasn’t hurt, I was just tender for him and willign to be the rock and supporter and help him get help. And he learned he can always count on me and tell me anything.
The next days and weeks were hard, with flashes of painful relaizations all the time. That’s what he was doing when I went to bed early. that’s why he wanted to see me do X. Realizations that the girls were real people, and the men being paid to abuse them on camera are real men too, living in my world. Realizing that the Pn I’d seen- nude magazine photos- was worlds away from modern video he’d seen- live, with sex sounds, with swearing, with groups, with violence. Relaizing I’d never again be able to comfortably do anything sexual that reminds me of Pn (being near a mirror to be watched, in water, certain sex acts and positions)
man, this is too long. I’ll hurry.
He spoke to the bishop, ocne or twice. He attends men’s 12-step LDs groups specific to Pn addiction. He journals the 12 steps and the questions of an awesome book, “clean hand, pure heart”. He called me imediately to confess every slip, to talk through every temptation or obessive thought, on a commitment neither of us would suffer alone or keep secrets anymore. We strengthened our marriage and trust amazingly, and he learned what it truly is to be humble and surrender to the Lord.
he is a new man. He’s been not just clean, not just abstinant, but changed in his thoughts, and heart. He’s been healed on the core sisues- being unlovable, not coping with stress, avoiding feleings by medicating them (with Pn), but now he feels his feelings, he’s not scared to embrace his pain, we talk about how he grew up feeling unloved, we talk about the abuse he received and gave among other chidlren growing up.
He is re-made in Christ. He is so joyful, constantly talking about the atonement and how it can help me too.
It is amazing. it is the miracle of healing. and in order to happen, he had to be broken enough to get truly HUMBLE, to beg for Christ to come in and to quit trying to manage it on his own strength. This trial is now the greatest blessing in our lives.
I meet other wives in much worse places. thier husbands aren’t sorry. They confess partially and try to hide the whole truth. their husbands “wish they could stop” but haven’t hit bottom yet. I don’t know what t say. I have no advice, I’m glad my burden wasn’t to live with an active addict, I don’t know what I’d do.
It’s not about sex, though. Thinking of him viewing, it doens’t bug me to think he’d masterbate, or be excited naturally by seeing sex. Until I think about the girl being called names pretending to like it when multiple men abuse her and make a mess on her body. I think that watching this, day by day, teaching that women are objects of pleasure, the stranger he meets is first a set of breasts or a good f* or has a nice butt, and she probably wants it, too. And a man who starts to see ladies that way is not 50-50 about having sex with his wife. It’s more about him, about lust, about satisfying cravings, not a demonstrations of soul-deep giving intimacy.
just yesterday i found a site I’d recomend on this stuff, except for the bad language. Recomend meaning, it will make you angry and see how Pn is never harmless to self or society. it was www.oneangrygirl.net/antiporn.html
for LDS support, the email lists for men and women here are good.
http://www.ldsr.org/clean/
oh, how did Pn effect me? unlike most women, I wasn’t racked with guilt for not putting out enough, for not being pretty or thin enough. Most people don’t undertsand it’s all about HIS life-long pain and issues, and think it’s a reaction to the wife’s failings. It’s not her fault, but he should have withstood her lackings more vlaiently. I never thought that. He was an addict as a newlywed, he was an addict for 3 non-mormon years of hot, daily premarital sex. And why hot? because of what Porn had taught me back as a teen- How to be a woman! how to look sexy! how to move and sound! what guys wsnt! the way porn most diretcly effected my life was that a few maagzinzes I curiosuly saw at 15 shaped my whole view of what to be, what guys want me to be, and what sex is. we’ve found healthy, loving sexuality now, but I still battle the lust in my mind or actions.
i don’t mind being cntacted if it could help somebody else. my anonymous adress is
penguin0101@go.com
Comment by LDS wife #1 — May 18, 2006 @ 9:42 am
I’m at the beginning of this process. What I know is that I have a husband who realizes he is wrong and is willing to try to stop and is fulfilling his responsibilities. What I don’t know is if I have the faith, hope, and charity required to endure the process–the lifetime process. This isn’t about everybody having imperfections, it feels more like being diagnosed with a terminal illness. I know the survival rate is not high. Get rid of the internet, sure, but he still goes to work. Our initial approach is to treat it like a disease and to seek treatment, but with the initial post’s reminder that “12 step programs don’t ‘cure’ anybody,” I’m not sure I’m brave enough to last. And what about my son?
How does porn affect a Mormon marriage? It shames one’s spouse into a lack of self esteem. It makes his brain so cluttered and noisy that a wife’s way of being–sexual and non-sexual–cannot be recognized or sufficient. It takes the most sacred thing my spouse and I can have together and profanes it, makes our sexual union common. It makes us not need each other. Since we no longer exist in a realm where physical desire is celebrated and satiated within marital boundaries, pornography makes it clear that my spouse and can take care of those needs on our own. It obliterates trust. I have found it easier to forgive my spouse than to even begin thinking of trusting him again. It brings fear into your home, into your relationship–sexual and non-sexual, into the individual lives of both partners.
I thank God that my husband has been forthright with me so we can continue the dialogue that we began while dating and foolishly discontinued after our temple marriage. However, I also implore God to tell me how to make it through the rest of our life. And I implore God to tell me how to spare my son from this inevitable evil.
Comment by alc — May 18, 2006 @ 10:44 am
I took the advise from a stake leader to regularly ask my husband not “if” he looks at porn but “WHEN was the LAST time he looked at porn”. A regular Q and A session can prevent giving in to tempation if a spontaneous discussion is someday around the corner. My husban is not a porn user, but I still check up on a regular basis so he knows I’m not naive.
Comment by anonymous — May 18, 2006 @ 10:56 am
FYI, most of these comments were caught in the moderation queue all morning so they did not see each other’s comments before making their own.
Comment by fMhLisa — May 18, 2006 @ 1:46 pm
I am not addicted to porn. However, I have struggled with an addiction to drugs and alcohol and have found the church’s twelve-step program to be very helpful. If worked properly, it can heal, not only the addicted individual, but the family members and loved ones involved.
alc, I can understand the betrayal you feel and the fear that your trust might never return. The fact that he started and if he continues is NOT your fault, at all. He is spiritually sick and can only recover through a spiritual remedy. The foundation of the twelve steps centers on the idea that a truly addicted individual can only be healed through a higher power mediated by spiritual experience. Know that there is always hope. It’s been my experience that the path to recovery can lead to even more meaningful, honest and loving relationships. As a loved one, the best thing you can do for him is to take care of yourself.
In addition to the books already recommended, I would add “The Worth of a Soul” by Steven Cramer. It chronicles his lifelong addiction to porn, excommunication and reconciliation with God and his family. Good stuff.
Comment by anon — May 18, 2006 @ 1:59 pm
How can it affect a marriage? In my case it ended it. I was a newly wed who didn’t think much about the time that my husband spent on his computer. I knew that he had looked at porn in the past, but I thought that now that he was married it no longer happened. (boy, am I naive.) One day my computer was acting up and I asked to use his to check something on line…he started to act wired…and so I made a joke about checking his history. And when I followed through with that joke I was shocked to see what I found. I couldn’t stand the thought of him being with another woman mentally. I felt so betrayed and couldn’t get the images that I had seen out of my head.
I went a little crazy. I didn’t think that I could trust him at all. I found myself compulsively searching his email accounts, cookies, and internet history. As I got better at finding it, he got better at hiding it. Some how he made me feel responsible for his problem. I kept thinking if I were sexier he wouldn’t have to turn else where. I kept trying to be what I thought he wanted and nothing worked. We stopped having sex, i couldn’t do it…I kept wondering if he was thinking of one of his porn girls. I hated that the girls he looked like didn’t resemble me. I stopped believing that he still found me attractive. He wasn’t willing to be honest about the issue, and because we couldn’t communicate about it I never felt like I could trust him. After two painful years of marriage, with little self esteem intake we divorced. I hate that we couldn’t over come his addiction, and I still for some reason feel like I have failed.
The healing process is slow and painful, and i am left wondering if the scars from his addiction and the loss of the marriage that I thought was eternal will ever heal.
Comment by Single Again — May 18, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
I get tired of the complaint that porn is bad because it exploits women–as though gay porn is just fine. I don’t even know what “exploit” means when its used in this sense.
What really bugs me is that porn is always talked about in such damned solemn tones. If you didn’t know any better, you’d think that folks were talking about snuff films. And it’s too bad, because there’s actually a lot of funny things to say about porn–if you’re open minded. For example, I knew a good looking, athletic fellow in college who used to proudly declare in his booming, deep voice with his chest out and his chin up, “When I get tired of a woman, I turn the page!”
This same guy was the head of the Wabash Adult Cinema Association–WACA. In fact, his actual title was “Head WACA Officer.” His dorm room was called, “The WACA Office.” And when he and his friends would slip out to go to the local strip club, they called it, “A WACA Off Campus Activity.” And–well, you get the idea.
So we happen to believe that this isn’t a good idea, and there is certainly no place for this among priesthood holders. But let’s not kid ourselves–this is normal, red-blooded, American male interest in sex. It’s not a disease or a plague.
Comment by DKL — May 18, 2006 @ 3:05 pm
This is big for me. I’ve never understood the porn thing that much, because a picture of a naked woman isn’t enough. The excitement to me is the togetherness, reaction to each others touches, and being able to share what is working with each other. Pictures just to do it. Which leads me to the one exception. . .
Just a picture of two attractive women kissing is very exciting to me. I don’t think porn has anything to do with it. Women are soft, unhairy, have breasts, etc. Now double all of that. When talking about SSM, I’ve joked to my wife that I side with homosexuals, because I myself am a lesbian at heart. You can blame porn for what people find sexy, but I’m pretty sure I’d find redheads sexy without ever seeing pornography with redheads in it.
Comment by jjohnsen — May 18, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
This is so true. I have cousin who is a huge Howard Stern fan. Besides interviewing musicians and actors, a large part of his show is interviewing porn actresses. My cousin says the big joke for Howard is to 1. ask if they were abused or abandoned as a child and 2. what kind of drugs do they do no. A large majority of the time the actress has been abused as a child and is currently doing some type of drug.
If I remember correctly, my first exposure to a Playboy (or whatever was popular in the 80’s) was at scout camp.
Comment by anonymouse husband — May 18, 2006 @ 3:27 pm
took the advise from a stake leader to regularly ask my husband not “if” he looks at porn but “WHEN was the LAST time he looked at porn”.
I find this more than a little troubling.
Did the stake leader also advise husbands to regularly ask their wives WHEN was the LAST time they slept with the delivery man?
I cannot think that periodically accusing one’s spouse of misconduct is in any way healthy for or helpful to the relationship. If no misconduct has occurred, accusations can only breed resentment. And if the spouse is caught in the kind of addictive/compulsive behaviors described by other posters, repeated accusations seem to me unlikely to encourage the truthful introspection that is necessary to change the compulsive behavior.
Comment by obi-wan — May 18, 2006 @ 3:59 pm
16 — I’m sorry if you get tired of hearing that porn is exploitive of everybody involved. Tough — it is.
I found porn for the first time when I was 7. I didn’t tell my bishop about it when I was baptized, and felt bad about that for years. When I was 11, I followed some of the lies of porn (everybody does sex, everybody likes sex, there’s nothing wrong with sex, and sexualizing children is doing them a favor), and helped sexualize a little boy that lived close to me (not a rape, nothing violent, but it wasn’t good). I didn’t talk to a bishop about this until I was 16 and had a testimony, having lied to every bishop in every interview up to that age. I tried quitting many times, and failed every time. I hated myself most of the time. I destroyed immense amounts of porn in moments of guilt, thinking that the ritualized destruction might show that I was really done with it. This didn’t work either.
I stopped masturbating for about two months prior to meeting a girl I was interested in, and we got married (having given up my virginity with her about three weeks before the wedding). I masturbated once during our life together, when she was away for a weekend, and I was looking into some of the cool “consensual” porn we’d picked up together. I didn’t need to masturbate, because I had a wife to masturbate into.
After she left me (not because of sexual addiction), I made it about three years before I started looking into porn again. That was when I started looking into internet porn (which took about ten seconds to find) and that has been a huge problem ever since. I’ve had one romantic relationship since then, which I was unable to keep sex out of (not that I tried all that hard) that ended with something less than consensual on my part and I was disfellowshipped for three years because of it.
I’ve found stuff that works in finding sexual sobriety. It’s hard stuff. It takes a lot of honesty, and it takes humbling yourself before God. And it takes doing both of those at times when you really don’t want to.
To those who don’t like to hear sexual addiction called an addiction, I honestly don’t give a flying fig if you don’t like it. Until you’ve tried fighting it, you’ve got no idea how hard it is to face. That some folks can take it or leave it doesn’t mean that other folks don’t have that option. I don’t. If this gets into my head, I have to get rid of it quickly or it’s going to wear me down and I’m going to take the ten seconds it takes to find more porn.
I’ve got a couple of months of sexual sobriety now. It’s been tough sometimes, but I’m sticking with it. I’m working at it one day at a time, and I hope that this will be the time I can get sobriety measured in years again.
Comment by anonymous — May 18, 2006 @ 4:44 pm
anonymouse husband: A large majority of the time the actress has been abused as a child and is currently doing some type of drug.
This may be accurate, but the point that you make from it is a terrible one. What if a large majority of female construction workers were abused as children or used drugs? Would you avoid houses or buildings that used female labor? It may well be that a large majority female rock stars or of female actresses on TV or on PG/R rated films use drugs. Does that mean that you won’t listen to them?
Some people deduce that there is something wrong with porn actors and actresses because they are in porn. That’s circular. You seem to want to deduce that there’s something wrong with porn because there’s something wrong with the actors and actresses. That’s pernicious.
Comment by DKL — May 18, 2006 @ 5:01 pm
On the one hand, I do tend to get pretty tense when the nudity police start getting uptight about what women do or don’t wear and how it conforms to their particular ideal of modisty. I also have very little patience when people start calling beach volleyball, and art, and romance novels porn. Puh-lease.
I’m certainly not anti-nudity nor am I even remotely anti-sex. However I am very much anti-porn. For a lot of reasons.
Porn does exploit women (and men but to a lesser extent). That exploitation is about those individual women, the Porn stars who were abused children and who now use drugs to dull the pain,
But in the larger picture it’s just about a culture in which women are viewed as objects of (red-blooded American) sexual desire, rather than as complex individuals with hopes and dreams and brains and breasts. A culture in which men are allowed and encouraged to focus their sexual desires not on real women with whom they share affection, and to take mutual pleasure in sex, but to simply take sexual pleasure from soulless bodies.
As though the women inside those long legs and curves doesn’t matter, if she exists at all. Porn encourages us all to see women first as an object of male sexual needs, and not at all as a human being. How often does Porn encourage men to wonder about the woman’s political beliefs or literary tastes or artistic talent? When does it show you her capacity to love with complexity?
To me it’s not about the nudity, not really even about the sex. It’s about the willingness to rob each other of our humanity, to treat each other as valueless objects, less even than an animal.
Sure men are always going to look at their favorite nubile body parts and feel desire, and I don’t think that’s bad, as long as they make an effort to push past the animal drive and recognize that a real and important person is attached to those nubile parts and value her as a whole and complex person. Porn encourages the exact opposite behavior. To never attach importance or affection to the women you desire.
Comment by fMhLisa — May 18, 2006 @ 5:29 pm
Some of the folks here who are defending porn or saying that it’s not that bad seem to be talking about nudie photos or films of couples having sex, perhaps a bit more explicitly than in an R-rated movie. But that’s not what porn is like now. I’m the one who cleaned out my FIL’s porn collection, and it’s much much kinkier than that, and very demeaning to many of the people involved. Playboy is quaint and demure alongside this stuff– would describe more here, but it probably wouldn’t be appropriate.
Comment by anon — May 18, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
I’m glad that DKL has put in his two cents. I’m glad that you are always there reminding us how normal porn really is and how we’re all kidding ourselves. Well, so it goes, right?
Yeah, I’m one of those women whose husband has a problem with using pornography. It’s not just recreational folks, it’s the real deal. Comments like DKL’s frustrate me so much because he makes it sound like the women and men who are dealing with these issues in their lives don’t know what they are talking about. Hey, I know what I am talking about. I’ve done my research–I know what is happening in my life. My husband is an addict, I’m a co-addict. Right now I am in in Recovery for my codependence and my co-addiction. I will no longer lie for my husband, cover up, protect, or control his behavior. For the past five years, I have made it my issue, my problem. But, his addiction is his problem, my codependency is my problem. That is one wonderful thing that I have learned in recovery is that, I only need to take responsibility for MY actions, thoughts, etc.
How can you begrudge someone for feeling outraged about something that has had such a detrimental effect on her life? I HATE pornography. And that’s okay. To make matters even worse or more pathetic, when I was a small child, pornography was used as a tool of abuse on me by someone who sexually abused me. Yeah, I hate the stuff. I have every right to and no matter, how normal, how okay, how red-blooded male, it may be, I can still hate it. It’s like someone who lost a loved one in a drunk driving accident. A perosn might join M.A.D.D., promote drunk driving legislation, tell people about his experiences, etc. Would you tell that person to “get a grip” because drinking alcohol is normal and most everybody does it so stop worrying?
I think one reason that pron addiction is getting so much attention is because, because of the Word of Wisdom, many Mormons, especially “born into covenant” Mormons, have been able to avoid addictions to alcohol and drugs. Many families first experiences with addiction tend to be these less defined addictions like, bulimia, pron/sex, overeating, etc. Mormonism doesn’t have a Recovery culture, I would even go so far as to say that it promotes codependency. People are freaking out about pron because we don’t have history of dealing with addictions. Now the Church is trying to get out their own 12-step programs to help in recovery but it will take awhile.
My husband and I are standing at the edge of a canyon right now, we’re deciding if we can continue on in our relationship. It’s not just because he looks at pron, it’s because of what the addiction had done to our relationship. I’m sure if his addiction was heroin, alcohol, or speed, we’d be in much the same situation.
Comment by M — May 18, 2006 @ 6:04 pm
I’m bulimic. And I realize that not everyone who eats develops this disorder, nor do I see eating as an inherently unhealthy behavior. Nonetheless, I suffer from a real addiction. It would be ridiculous for someone to say to me, “oh come on, eating is a perfectly normal behavior, so there’s nothing wrong with what you’re doing.”
As others have said, it’s very, very hard to explain what it’s like to deal with addiction if you haven’t been there. And I don’t even have to sit through lots of talks about how what I’m doing is a horrible thing. I do think porn is immoral (I completely agree with what fmhLisa said about how it objectifies people), but I also sometimes wonder how helpful it is really to keep giving talks about how sinful it is.
Comment by some Mormon out there — May 18, 2006 @ 7:21 pm
“You seem to want to deduce that there’s something wrong with porn because there’s something wrong with the actors and actresses.”
I don’t think they were deducing that pron is wrong because of the shady pasts of the actresses. The wrongness of pron there is a given. I think he was saying that the history of abuse and drug use indicate the limited accountability these women have for their career choices. If the only options they have are to work in the sex trade, then you can’t argue that the choice to be a pron star was completely their own. They feel comfort in abusive situations because that is all they know.
I agree that DKL is being rather flippant. I will not deny that the average red-blooded American male enjoys looking at attractive women. Heck, I like looking at anything that is attractive. But the thing is, 99% of pron isn’t about looking at something that is attractive, or even something that is sexually attractive. It’s about fetishizing subjugation. Even gay pron will have obvious power differentials between the subjects.
The reason I’m willing to decry pron as a plague and a disease is because it shapes the cultural psyche. It teaches men and women what sex should be like. And it invariably teaches them that sex is all about male pleasure, power, and control. The more hard core it gets the more female pleasure is decreased, and the more helpless the female becomes. The quaint harmless pron of red-blooded American tradition is a hop skip and a jump away from ch!ld pron, and other very obviously wrong activities.
From this website (warning lots of profanity)
Comment by Starfoxy — May 18, 2006 @ 8:03 pm
This is scary and offensive. I’m glad my wife doesn’t treat me like a child that is trying to sneak around her back. We’re adults, so we discuss things openly instead of accusing each other of misbehavior we may or may not be planning to do. Shame on that stake leader for asking wives to treat their husbands like they know they’ll fail.
Comment by jjohnsen — May 18, 2006 @ 8:59 pm
M, I can understand where your response is coming from, but it’s misguided. I know people who have died from complications relating to tobacco consumption, but I still laugh at Dennis Leary–he’s is funny. And he makes jokes about heroin addiction, too.
The problem with “the problem with pornography” is that it results from the way that the problem is defined (basically, if you look at it and can’t stop, then you’re an addict even if it doesn’t cause you to commit crimes to satisfy your desire like real addictions to real addictive substances like heroin or alcohol), and the only justification for the definition is the irrational taboo associated with it. Of course masturbating and seeking visual sexual stimuli can be a compulsive behavior that are very nearly impossible to stop. But compulsive behaviors are a dime a dozen. I know people who compulsively configure and reconfigure their Linux installations. I know people who do compulsive gardening (30+ hours per week). I know a guy who is a compulsive bicycler (he’s a single guy who spends 30 to 60 hours a week biking–basically, most waking hours where he’s not at work or eating). I’ll grant that in some sense they aren’t well balanced, but are they addicted?
You’re right that pornography can be a part of sexual abuse, but can a lot of other sexual practices–even the kind that are the very pinnacle of intimacy between a married couple. The fact that they are used during abuse doesn’t make it bad per se.
Comment by DKL — May 18, 2006 @ 9:17 pm
I’m straight and female. I see far more porn in my day to day life than my husband does. I’m a member of an online community that posts Victorian porn pictures of mostly naked women. I love the history, the black and white photography, the old-fashioned backdrops and the women with natural curves and body types. It makes me feel good about my own body and boosts my libido. I see no downside to my interest in vintage porn and certainly feel no shame.
Comment by anonasperrequested — May 18, 2006 @ 10:36 pm
Porn has the same potential for addiction and destruction as anything else, to be sure. But unlike heroin, not everyone that looks at porn (when I say “porn” I’m including Playboy, stripclubs, as well as the harder stuff) becomes addicted. In this way, it may be more like alcohol. For some it is a marginal part of life, and for others it is all consuming. I think this may be along the lines of what DKL was trying to point out.
Comment by matt — May 18, 2006 @ 11:15 pm
M,
I also want you to know that I hope the best for you and can understand why you would hate porn. Good luck with everything. I’ve seen the church’s 12 step work miracles. A close friend of mine has been working through his addiction to porn and has a fabulous marriage now. When I went to my first meeting, I had just come out of the hospital after a drug overdose. I thank the Lord when I say that my life is better today. I know that this isn’t always the case, but it can happen.
Comment by matt — May 18, 2006 @ 11:27 pm
This topic hits very close to home for me, but first a little background. I am a nonmember married to an inactive member. Many of his friends and most of his family are very devote followers of the LDS faith. Recently, my husband and I were having lunch with a few of his friends and the topic of playboy came up. I started to talk about my uncle who for as long as I have known has been a subscriber to the magazine. Without missing a beat his friend asked me if my uncle cheats on his wife. I was offended and quickly answered no. How does him looking at the monthly issues of playboy mean that he is carrying on an affair? After all was said and done with I started to think about this subject.
My husband and I have had problems with porn in our relationship. I didn’t even realize that there was a problem until it was seriously affecting our sex life. It was very subtle though. We work opposite shifts from one another, so our love making is a well deserved treat at the end of the week. First it started that we would skip a week, then two, and then it would become a month. I can remember a time I just sat on the kitchen floor and cried because he had denied me. I felt like there was something physically wrong with me, and I was somehow inadequate. I swore up and down that he was having an affair. It was at this point that I started to look into his internet usage. I went through all of his email, and downloaded files. I even found some very disturbing websites that he was a member of. He was not carrying on a physical relationship, but I still felt betrayed. He was getting more satisfaction from a machine that from me, his wonderful, beautiful, breathing, feeling wife.
So what did I do? I put my foot down; I told him that I would not compete with a machine. His problem almost led to the demise of our marriage. Since then he has had one lapse in judgment, and I found out that he was surfing the porn pages again. We have had to go to counseling, but I will not give up on us and what we have. Since he as stopped our relationship has improved by leaps and bounds, and if I may say our intimate life has become very fulfilling.
This is very personal for me. I never thought porn to be destructive. I can even admit to watching it a little when I was single… masturbation is the safest sex. But now that it has affected me and my relationship I have to say that it should have no place in any household. I surf this blog frequently, but have never really posted. I guess I surf to understand my family’s beliefs better and I find this blog to be a good place to see many attitudes of both LDS and non LDS people. I appreciate being able to share my story with others, because it is not something I talk about openly. There is a sort of shame with our problem, and it has taken me quite some time to heal from this. Porn addiction is very real; I was naive to think that it could never happen to me. And even more naive to think that it was not a real problem and only perverts get addicted to porn. I could go on with how I feel on this subject, but I will end here. Thank you for letting me share my story, I hope it helps.
Comment by anonymouse — May 18, 2006 @ 11:50 pm
DKL’s comments should frustrate you.
DKL, are you arguing that porn is normal, harmless, healthy, or just common? If you want to argue that it’s common among the general male population, I’ll agree with you. But so are visits to strip bars, where men give women money to perform sexual acts on them. In high school, as soon as our junior/senior year came around and everyone turned 18, guys flooded the strip bars nearby. And among the guys I have worked with on both coasts, there is nothing wrong with going to strip bars and having a sexual experience there. So strip bars are a very common indulgence; does the fact that they are common mean they are healthy, let alone acceptable in the eyes of God?
DKL, academic discussions are sometimes interesting, but this post is asking for experiential knowledge, not gadfly ping pong about semantics or pornography’s broader cultural context. Do you have any experiential knowledge (in other words, anything useful) to contribute?
Comment by a male perspective — May 19, 2006 @ 2:58 am
What if your husband is just a foot fetishist? Is that the same as being into porn?
Comment by Lifexpert — May 19, 2006 @ 3:14 am
Maybe what DKL was saying is that everyone is exposed to ertoic stimuli (Hell, just a woman’s walkin by is erotic stimuli, alwyas has been, always will!), yet only some exhibit the so-called signs of addiction. With alcohol, if you’re having gin with breakfast, it’s probably a tale tale sign. And if, instead of a pretty woman’s turniung a single man’s head, he’s — well, you know, fill in the picture (I don’t know: breaking into dormrooms to steal underwear?), that too might be a sign there’s a problem? Yes, there’s always gonna be girls running the gamut from merely pushing the boundaries of propriety in dress to their tending to cross it — in an also-addictive cycle co-dependence that can even provide a livelihood. And so I wish all of us luck as we wrangle with this issue of es - e - ex & pray we can channel our interests in it in ways we ought. (Note: Here in New Jersey, /ought/ I think is pronounced oowat. lol.)
(Very good blog/ essay and comments here. thanks.)
Comment by Kimball L. Hunt — May 19, 2006 @ 4:54 am
I said in comment 24 that the Church doesn’t have a Recovery culture, I want to clarify and modify that a bit. Of course the Church has a recovery culture, we believe in the Atonement of the Savior and the Plan of Salvation. That is a perfect plan of recovery. The Savior can and will heal us if we let Him. The problem with addiction is, it is fueled by secrets. An addiction will survive if no one knows about it. You need to stop the secrets.
Comment by M — May 19, 2006 @ 5:57 am
For some reason, my comments in this thread keep going into the mod queue.
Comment by DKL — May 19, 2006 @ 6:41 am
DKL and others - some words are picked up by wordpress and put into moderation, so just be a little patient - thanks!!
Comment by Rebecca — May 19, 2006 @ 7:49 am
obi-wan (#19)
its definately in the way it is approached. i agree that it can sound accusational, so we had a discussion about the importance of avoiding porn vs. the tempatation factor and then agree that it would be alright if i occasionaly checked up on him by asking him. perhaps he could check up on me as well. i wouldn’t feel accused because we have the understanding of WHY we are asking eachother this question. in fact if he started to at defensively when i was checking up on him, THAT is what would make me suspicious.
Comment by anonymous — May 19, 2006 @ 8:04 am
a male perspective, if porn is causing real, palpable problems in your relationship, then take action. A car, a job, or any hobby at all can cause similar problems. So if you’re husband spends too much time at work, too much time with his friends, or too much time fishing, take a stand and save your marriage. Likewise, with porn.
But let’s get a few things straight:
First, a wife is no more entitled to tell her husband how often they should be having sex than a husband is entitle to dictate such terms to his wife.
Second, the question of whether it is right in the eyes of God is off the table. It isn’t, and I’ve said so from the start.
Third, just looking at porn does not cause marital problems. I’ve read of LDS women who have left their husbands because they looked at porn a few times a month and they otherwise had a normal relationship–this is freakishly bizarre to me. Would they have left their husbands if they had decided to start drinking coffee?
Fourth, cloaking discussions about compulsive masturbation in the terms of addiction is like cloaking talk about the IQ of different ethnicities in the language of science. It’s nothing more than a way of trying to import legitimacy into mere cultural bias.
Comment by DKL — May 19, 2006 @ 10:04 am
I have to disagree with the comment that romance novels aren’t like pron. Pron and romance novels both depict the act of intercourse in ways that are unrealistic. Even when they aren’t degrading and seem to be showing the loving actions of a married couple it’s still very heavily biased towards one gender’s preferences. Romance novels and pron both teach the reader to expect nearly impossible things from their experiences that lead only to frustration and disappointment when real life fails — as it must — to live up to the fantastic (in both senses of the term) experiences we’ve imagined.
This was recently posted in a forum I frequent and I think it helps to illustrate my point:
I have asked dragonwarrior_keltyr to post this in hopes that I might warn you to the a certain danger which has affected me. My problem began many years ago when I became involved in unchaste activities. I will not go into the nature of them, but it dealt with self degradation. Those problems have been somewhat overcome but still plague me. I will also say that I am in my older teens, though age is not overly relevant.
I have always known that what I did was wrong but the significant impact was shown to me as of late. For a short time now I have been happily in love with a good friend - my boyfriend. Despite my unchaste behavior - and contrary to what you may think- nothing unchaste has happened between us. But here is the story. One day, a short while ago, after driving me home, he gave me a kiss. Now, I had been waiting for this, looking forward even. But, I was disappointed. I am somewhat of a romantic and thought that, with my strong feelings for him, that it would more. I thought on this for a while and realized why. A kiss no longer has significance to me. While in my romantic mind in may, the act of kissing does not feel special. It has been misused as a tool or thought for sexual self pleasure and not as something special. It made me sad. A kiss was something I would want to be something special to share with my boyfriend. It makes me feel a fraud. What is worse is that I believe he knows that I did not feel anything with that kiss. The act was misused and the significance lost. I experience more happiness at holding his hand than a kiss because of what I have done. Now think on this. If a brief kiss does not make me feel, what about when I marry? Shall I feel little in my relationship with my husband? I know myself and that it is likely. I have corrupted the sacred nature of intimacy and I am terrified that when or if I marry I shall not fully experience the joys of it. Even though he is just a boyfriend, I feel that I have betrayed him and I know that I have let my future husband down. It has just hit me how much the sharing of something special - whether a kiss or full intimacy - means to me. The feelings you receive from those acts will not be special, will not be something that I share with my husband alone. I have defiled them and defiled myself.
I hope that this will not be ignored but if it reaches just one person, or makes one individual think, I will be satisfied. I have perhaps wrecked my married life before I have reached adulthood and before it has started. I cannot say how much I am sorry and yet I still dwell in sin. Please hold closer to the gospel and it’s teachings than I have. I pray that you will.
Comment by Proud Daughter of Eve — May 19, 2006 @ 10:47 am
DKL — I second the motion that you bring something real and experiencial to the table. I did (in #20). I put a lot of personal and painful right there, and it was apparently real enough that nobody wants to talk about it. So now it’s your turn. You have a lot to say about this topic, but none of it is about you. You can criticize those who disagree with you, but you’re not going to ante up with your own actual experience?
I think you’re trying, badly, to describe a “social porn user” as an analog to a social drinker — someone who can have a glass of wine with dinner, or a beer at a party, leave it at that, and walk away. I think you’re trying to create this kind of porn user as a legitimate thing, I’m guessing because that’s the role you see yourself in.
Here’s the problem with that role — it doesn’t exist in a Mormon context, any more than the social drinker does. For a non-member to be a social drinker is a morally appropriate situation to be in — they’ve never covenanted to do otherwise, and, if they’re not hurting someone else, there’s not really a problem (aside from a bit of low-level shared responsibility for supporting the alcoholic culture that creates cover for those who abuse alcohol).
For a Mormon to be a social drinker is to set themselves outside the bounds of behavior for the community of Saints. Their drinking is not the problem it would be for an active alcoholic, and I’m likely to be the guy facing such real people who will be telling the other Mormons around to shut up and back off because it’s not that big of a deal and it’s not their business anyhow. The Church is here for sinners, not the nigh-perfect, so I would welcome them in the door. But I wouldn’t pretend that there is any level of drinking of alcohol that’s acceptable in the context of someone who wants to be part of this Church, the morality of the drinking being a slightly different question. There is nothing inherently immoral about growing, picking, and/or squashing grapes, nor is there anything inherently immoral about allowing the juice of those grapes to be bottled and fermented, nor in selling the product.
That is not the case with porn. The production of porn is, inherently, sinful. Sexuality between husband and wife, within some boundaries, is not sinful, and is, in fact, an elevated and holy thing. However, those boundaries are violated when the behavior is recorded for later use. Then it is no longer respectful, elevated and holy — it is about lust and selfishness. And recording of nudity and sexual behavior that would not otherwise be sanctioned (outside of marriage) is also immoral, as is the behavior itself.
And the “social user” doesn’t work within a Mormon context, because we are a people led by prophets, and there has been nothing equivocal from any of the prophets on the morality of the use of porn. There is no “if you’re married, with your spouse” exemption to the “porn is evil, stay away from it” counsel, nor to the Savior’s statement that looking upon someone to lust after them is adultery of the heart. There is *no* justification for *any* use of porn by a Latter-day Saint.
Now, my conjecture that you’re trying to create this little bubble of legitimacy in the filthy world of porn is just that, and, if I am wrong in that conjecture, I apologize. Perhaps it is just an intellectual exercise on your part, or perhaps you’d like to see a little less hysteria in dealing with this issue. I wouldn’t mind seeing the hysteria level go down a bit myself, because I find the hysteria just makes it harder to get people to admit to and face the problems that this causes in their lives.
Comment by anonymous — May 19, 2006 @ 10:48 am
its definately in the way it is approached. i agree that it can sound accusational, so we had a discussion about the importance of avoiding porn vs. the tempatation factor and then agree that it would be alright if i occasionaly checked up on him by asking him. perhaps he could check up on me as well. i wouldn’t feel accused because we have the understanding of WHY we are asking eachother this question. in fact if he started to at defensively when i was checking up on him, THAT is what would make me suspicious.
I’m glad it works for you, but I agree with jjohnsen that an assumption of guilty until proven innocent is probably not, in general, a viable way to maintain a healthy spousal relationship. What else would you check up on? “Honey, when was the last time you hit the slot machines? Shot any smack lately? Are you embezzling your boss? Are you molesting the children? Have you kicked the dog?”
Comment by obi-wan — May 19, 2006 @ 10:51 am
I became addicted to pornography when I was around 14 or 15. It was the masturbation to porn which hooked me. It became a phsyical craving that I couldn’t deny.
I’ve now dealt with that addiction for over twenty years. I have worked on and off with bishops (including church discipline) and counsellors on it; I’ve also hidden it. Sometimes I go months and months without viewing any pornography and sometimes I can’t even go a week without seeking some out. My wife didn’t know when we married and I didn’t tell her. She found out after we’d been married five years and our first child was 2 years old. The days that followed were probably the darkest and most desperate I have ever endured.
It would be a lie, though, to say that changed everything. We became more honest with one another; we fought less. But I still struggled. Sometimes I have been candid with her about my struggles and other times (like during her long illness, or when she has been pregnant again) I’ve withheld my backsliding from her. Part of this is genuine concern at saving her pain; after all these years I know my wife pretty well. But I also know that a lot of it is selfish. (I want to thank LDS wife #1 for comment #10. I too don’t always talk to my wife because I “know” she will leave me; she has said so. But we have never come to the point you ane your husband came to and I was touched to read about how it worked out for you.)
My wife has a low sex drive and we rarely have intercourse more than once or twice a month. It was this way from the first day of our marriage, and was not a result of our crisis when she first learned about my secret. I am not saying this to justify myself, it is not an excuse. It is just one of those things that has become part of this deep ongoing struggle I have with myself. I no longer expect to be cured; I figure I will struggle–sometimes for a long time successfully, sometimes not–with this until the day I die.
My cravings have never been for anything other than straight adult female sexual images and heterosexual sex, and while I have sometimes asked, I have never ever pushed my wife into sexual positions or activities she is uncomfortable with. Again I am not saying this to justify myself. On the contrary it is something I have actually thanked God for; I’m grateful that the demons I struggle with are not as perverse as they easy could have been.
I am a good husband and father to our several children but am far from what I could be. Sometimes my mind is consumed with dirty thoughts and I cannot bring the Spirit into our home the way I ought to. But there have also been a couple of times when God has used my weakness to do good, like in reaching out to others in the church who have similar problems. I have been blessed in some special ways. But I would give all of those blessings away in an instant if it have never been my fate to become an addict and bring a shadow which will probably never really leave entirely into my life and the lives of my wife and children.
I wish everyone who goes on about First Amendment rights would wake up to the reality and help fight for a pornography free world. An impossible goal I guess, but worthy fighting for. There will always be people who will produce it and seek it out but away from the extremes, I think you may find a lot of people like me: a decent person would could have been a much better and more honest and stronger person if those magazines hadnt been laying around in plain site one day long ago.
Comment by anonymous — May 19, 2006 @ 11:21 am
i just wanted to write and add my thoughts and experiences to the mix. first, i want to disagree with DKL when he says that ‘just looking at porn does not cause marital problems.’ HA! that’s possibly one of the most misguided statements i’ve read on these boards. it has caused marital problems for my dear husband and i; he and his previous wife divorced because the marital problems were so severe. this was all because he was ‘just’ looking at porn.
i believe strongly that pornography is inherently evil. however, some people will not have the pull to it that other men do, and will be able to take it or leave it. many men grow more and more entangled into it, and can’t walk away. especially those who start the habit as a young boy, as my husband did. by the time anyone told him it was wrong in church, he had been viewing pornography for years. he is addicted to it. thankfully, he has spent much time with 12 step groups and therapists working to improve. however, there are still times that he relapses and finds himself in the clutches of pornography again. it is very much an addiction, just as tobacco or alcohol can be addictive. as one writer said above,
“To those who don’t like to hear sexual addiction called an addiction, I honestly don’t give a flying fig if you don’t like it. Until you’ve tried fighting it, you’ve got no idea how hard it is to face.”
i don’t claim to know how hard it is from a first person perspective. but it is also hard to be the wife of one who struggles with this addiction. even when you realize that this is about him and not you - it’s about pain and not sex, you still feel devalued and hurt by the betrayal. i think it’s important to work together on overcoming addiction and to be accountable to each other. if there is lying or covering up of pornography relapses, i don’t know how a couple could make it. but i know it’s possible to have a happy and successful marriage while still dealing with a pornography addiction. the ideas mentioned by jks in comment #2 are CRUCIAL.
i’m sure that the many talks given by our LDS general authorities are intended to help those who are viewing pornography but not totally intrenched in it yet. for one who is addicted and working at recovery (my husband), these words are too late for him. i am hopeful that young boys will hear them and never fall into the same trap. it most definitely causes marital problems, including trust issues, emotional safety, and sexual relationships.
Comment by anon mormon wife — May 19, 2006 @ 11:54 am
This still sounds very unhealthy to me. Two grown adults are not having conversations about something that affects both of them. Instead, they are checking up on each other to make sure a path is being followed. How would my wife feel if I decided she ate too much ice cream, (she does, we both have an unhealthy obsession with Breyers Oreo ice cream) and shouldn’t eat it anymore? We could sit down as a couple and talk to each other about the ice cream habit, deciding how often we should eat ice cream, and maybe stop buying it less. Or I could accusingly as her, “When was the last time you ate ice cream?” A silly example of course, but treating anything, including porn, like that is silly. What other ways do you try to scare your spouse into doing the right thing? Again, the stake leader that told you that should be talked too. At a time that marriages have such a low success rate, is the answer to pit one spouse against the other to find fault, or teach them to work together as adults?
If I walked over to my wife right now and said “When was the last time you (looked at porn, smoked crack, drank beer, slept with another man)?” how is this preventing her from doing it, and making our relationship stronger?
My wife accusing me of looking at porn every few weeks isn’t the reason I don’t look at porn, and I doubt it’s the reason for the spouses of those people counseled in your stake.
Comment by jjohnsen — May 19, 2006 @ 12:17 pm
“There is *no* justification for *any* use of porn by a Latter-day Saint.”
Unless, of course, you’re under doctor’s supervision.
Comment by Carlton — May 19, 2006 @ 12:19 pm
I don’t get it. Legs, butts, eyes, neck, breasts, stomachs, hair, lips. These are all things I can understand finding attractive and possibly obsessing over, but feet?
Comment by jjohnsen — May 19, 2006 @ 12:20 pm
of course porn use does not equal addiction. In my husband’s case, it was true, deserpate addiction. but by no means does that describe all people’s cases espcielly among “regular guys” outside the church who think porn is alright, their use is probably less likely to be compulsive. Among LDS guys, they know they shoudln’t be doing it, so in my opinion, the ones who persist in doign it are more likely to be trapped. In other words, if they could stop, they would!
The problem with non-addicted, common porn use, the kind that 90% of americans under 40 use at least sometimes, is that it does portray sex as a one-sided, using and abusing activity. It portrays women as objects to be pushed around, sworn at, make them scream and then ejactulate on their faces. Same for gay men porn- it’s not the feminist thing that gets me, it’s the DEHUMANIZATION of every actor involved, but it’s women on the whole who are portrayed that way,a dn then I go out in society, I buy my groceries and fill up my gas tank and almsot every man I can see is a man who has ENJOYED watching that scene.
Every buddy my son will ever have is likely to have not just been exposed to that dehuminizing message, but to have personally gotten off from it. Like myself, seeing this stuff even once could powerfully teach my daughter what women are supposed to do- and want- during sex.
I hate living in a society where this is true. I love living in a marriage where my husband is one in a million who actually conquered this, praise to the Lord for saving him!
Comment by LDS wife #1 — May 19, 2006 @ 12:20 pm
I wish everyone who goes on about First Amendment rights would wake up to the reality and help fight for a pornography free world. An impossible goal I guess, but worthy fighting for.
Um, no, sorry. I’m very sympathetic to your struggles, and I’m perfectly happy to fight for a pornography free world, but leave the First Amendment out of it.
The way to fight for a pornography free world is to convince people that it’s a bad influence and that they volutarily don’t want or need it — and the way NOT to fight for a pornography free world is to involve the government in eroding freedom of speech.
I don’t like pornographic speech, but there are plenty of people around who don’t like gospel speech or other forms of speech that are important to me. Latter-Day Saints, of all people, should know that what starts as an attempt to use the coercive power of the state to secure a pornography free world could easily end in somebody securing a Book of Mormon free world. That’s not an acceptable trade. If we want the benefits of the one, we have to endure the detriments of the other. Sorry.
Comment by obi-wan — May 19, 2006 @ 12:23 pm
anon #44
I’m glad my story may have helped you. I urge you to find a men’s 12 step meeting, they are amazing. go to providentliving.org, it’s under “social and emotional health”.
If you’d like to talk with my husband, email me and I’ll forward it to him.
that goes to any man presently trapped in that darkness. we’ve been there, and my husband has a strong and joyous testimony of how he got out. you don’t have to live feeling sick and unworthy forever.
Comment by LDS wife #1 — May 19, 2006 @ 12:28 pm
I know this thread is supposed to be for the women, but I want to voice my views as a husband. I’ve been addicted to p**n since before I can remember; it probalby started around when I was 8 (definitely before then, but I don’t remember how long), with lingerie adds and whatever I could find (Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, the more risque magazines, etc.). I’m currently 26, which means I’ve had this problem persistently for over 18 years, with the most amount of time I’ve been able to be clean being 6 months inlcuding a few two monthers and more one monthers, but usually it was something I struggled with every week.
From this I’ve learned a number of things, but the most important (which is very often misunderstood) is this–it is not about the p**nography, the sex, or the illicit material; that is merely the means to the end. P**nography addiction, like every other addiction, is based on a person’s inability to cope well with life. As I look back through all the struggles I’ve had I see a consistent pattern of stress >> temptation >> give in for temporary relief (as another poster said, those endorphines) >> rinse >> repeat. It is not, as DKL has tried to say, a “normal, red-blooded, American male interest in sex”; it is using sex for temporary relief from life’s difficulties, like being intoxicated or high is for the alcoholic or drug addict. It is an escape that solves nothing because, inevitably, escape will be needed again.
It is because of this that I think the “just stop doing it” train of thought is incredibly naive and damaging: stopping the activity does not help deal with the stresses of life, the feelings of insecurity, etc. Yes, our goal is to stop, but we need to do it by looking at the underlying causes, not the surface symptoms. It’s like chipping away at the tip of the iceberg, thinking that if we can wear it down enough we will conquer the whole thing (I don’t like the metaphor, by the way).
Let me say in addition that I would suggest Patrick Carnes’ work; it has helped me quite a bit.
Oh, and for the record, I still struggle with p**nography and mast**bation on an almost daily basis and many days I just want to scream and give in because it is incredibly difficult; sometimes I even get cold sweats and my body trembles, my mind races and I can’t think of anything else. That is why I do not appreciate DKL’s characterization (or caricature) of the situation–it is not true to my experience, nor to the many other addicts that I have spoken to.
Comment by Mormon Male Addict — May 19, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
For those who are struggling with this issue, whether as strugglers or spouses of strugglers, one of the best resources on the net is Latter-day Sexual Recovery. This has both online forums for addicts, spouses, and others interested in supporting recovery and mail lists for both strugglers and spouses. There is a great deal of experience, strength and hope to be found here.
There is also Heart-t-Heart, which has both in-person meetings and on-line forums for dealing with many addictive/compulsive behaviors from an LDS perspective.
Comment by anonymous — May 19, 2006 @ 1:25 pm
anonymous: I think you’re trying to create this kind of porn user as a legitimate thing, I’m guessing because that’s the role you see yourself in
Guess again. I’ve got no personal stake in the issue. Here’s the poop: I looked at porn when I was inactive for a decade, and I never tried to hide it. When I became active, I quit. I also quit smoking and drinking when I became active. To me, it’s never been that big of a deal.
anonymous: Perhaps it is just an intellectual exercise on your part, or perhaps you’d like to see a little less hysteria in dealing with this issue. I wouldn’t mind seeing the hysteria level go down a bit myself, because I find the hysteria just makes it harder to get people to admit to and face the problems that this causes in their lives.
This is exactly it. The sad fact is that most Mormon women just don’t understand the bull-in-a-china-shop that we know as male sexuality.
What I see is a lot of mal-adjusted mormons blowing everything out of proportion. Specifically, a bunch of guys who plagued with guilt and feelings of inadequacy over this “addiction” thing, and a bunch of mormon women with huge hang-ups over the porn issue because their neo-Victorian lacks perspective on the issue.
This “inherently sinful” thing is just silly. I understand that simple, categorical moral judgments like that can make us feel good, but it’s not nearly so cut and dry as that. Is it inherently sinful for a husband and a wife to film their own sex? Is it voyeurism or exhibitionism inherently sinful? All sex outside of marriage is inherently sinful, so should we resurrect the enforcement of adultery laws?
Forgery is inherently sinful, too, but there’s not half so much shame in forging a parent’s signature for a school pass in high school as there is in being caught masturbating. People freak out about masturbation because they don’t understand male sexuality, and they do the same thing about porn by extension.
Sin has nothing to do with it, and all this talk of addiction to porn and damage” is just trying legitimate this creepy tendency that women have to totally dominate the sexual interests of their husbands.
Comment by DKL — May 19, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
“I wish everyone who goes on about First Amendment rights would wake up to the reality and help fight for a pornography free world. An impossible goal I guess, but worthy fighting for.” Borrowed from #50s post.
I took a class in college, it was called psychology of human sexual behavior. It was probably one of the most profound classes I have ever gone through. This class made me see myself as a sexual being, and embrace that. One part of the class had to do with the darker side of human sexuality, mostly fetishes that were not normal in mainstream culture. Part of the class also had to do with porn. Our professor put various images of pornography on the projector, proceeded to ask the class who was offended by this. Images with homosexual content offended many of the class members, where as images of naked females offended a lesser number of students. Mind you, this was a college course, and we were given fair warning as to the nature of that days lecture. Thoes who did not want to attend were told not to.
Here is my point. Reguarless of how people feel about porn, and how it has negatively affected thier lives there is a fine line between what people deem offensive. Some people on this blog have stated that romance novels are offensive, others images of naked females, and yet others two people having sex. That is why there is very little that government can do about pornography. What is grosly offensive to one person, is not to another. Unfortunate, isn’t it?
Comment by anonymous — May 19, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
I wish LDSs could see the obvious answer, it is polygamy. God created most men with a freaked out sex drive, women, not so. Polygamy is the obvious answer, the men should get enough to make them hate sex, and have no need, or capacity, to masturbate. Of course, then we’re back to the women being victims of some sort
Comment by Carlton — May 19, 2006 @ 2:25 pm
DKL,
Obviously nothing will change your mind, even pointing out that nearly all my information on pornography addiction, past personal experience, comes from non-Mormon male psychologists. Of course, you’ll probably find some way to discount them as well…maybe they’re also under some neo-Victorian illusion, or they’re just men who don’t understand their own sex drives as you so obviously do…or something…
Comment by Mormon Male Addict — May 19, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
The first time my sons saw a Victoria’s Secret commercial on TV, I told them to turn away because they didn’t need to see ladies in their underwear. My sons were 3 and 5 at the time. This may sound extreme, except I see a few of the male posters recognize that their struggle with porn started as young as the age of 7. Children are innocent and don’t know what porn is. But a day will come when they realize, “Hey… this makes me feel good!”, and that is not good.
I’m not proud of the fact that I told them that, I’m sad. Sure, the desires that arise with viewing or reading material of an erotic nature are natural. But we are not to be natural men (or women!).
There is no “casual porn user”. There is no “casual masturbation”. I feel sorrow for the people that struggle with this addiction. The fact that people’s souls are harrowed and marriages are broken over this subject is proof enough that the use of pornography is wrong.
We are taught that our bodies are a temple. Why on earth would you want to put something like this in it? If you don’t feel comfortable reporting the behavior/habit/addiction, whatever it is to the Savior… you shouldn’t do it. There are no exceptions.
This comment was meant for the persons reading who have the idea in their heads that porn of any kind, of the slightest amount is ok. It’s not. And for those who struggle, my prayers are with you.
Comment by SalGal — May 19, 2006 @ 3:46 pm
Am I falling into your sarcasm, or is there a time that doctors prescribe it?
Comment by jjohnsen — May 19, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
I think it is really sad to hear women say that they would/have divorced their husbands for watching porn. I am not an advocate for porn, but I am an advocate for forgiveness (even when it is not necessarily earned - which I know might be difficult for a Mormon to accept given Mormon doctorine.) What I mean is I love my husband - no matter what. Just as I am not perfect and am apt to sin (one way or another) on a daily basis, neither is he. If my husband were to watch porn, I would not be happy about it and I would want him to stop, but I would never, ever consider leaving him.
Comment by beht — May 19, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
The blade cuts both ways, Mormon Male Addict. Nothing appears to be able to change your mind either.
In medicine, the virologist defines the disease and the physician diagnoses it and treats it. In psychology, the psychologist defines the disease and diagnoses it and treats it. Since psychologists make their real money diagnosing and treating, the fact that they can define the disease creates a tremendous incentive to define new ones and diagnose people with them and then treat them.
And lets not treat psychology as hard science either. Psychology is no more methodical than Judaism: Ask 10 psychologist a question about some field of research, and you’ll get 10 answers.
The plain truth is that the term “addiction” has become a synonym for compulsive behavior, but it still retains the rhetorical impact of when it meant something different.
That said, neo-puritanism and neo-Victorianism are both strong influences in our society and they are much larger than Mormonism. The anti-smoking crusade is an example of the former. The anti-porn crusade and anti-abortion crusade are examples of the latter. Mormons tend to be more neo-Victorian than neo-puritan in their moral outlook, since most of us are prone to take a live and let live, egalitarian attitude about matters not relating to sex.
Comment by DKL — May 19, 2006 @ 4:21 pm
LOL Carlton… you’re very brave, considering the forum.
(I must confess, however, that the same thought had occured to me. Not all polygamous marriages in that period of the church’s history were consumated sexually, however, nor would I be willing to maintain that mens sex drive would be the most significant reason that plural marriage is an eternal principle. I wouldn’t write it out completely, though.)
The “greatest sins” as we have been taught in LDS theology, are murder and sexual immorality.
Underlying those areas of transgression are the principles of life– the giving or taking thereof. The eternal laws of the universe, it seems, frown greatly upon the abuse of the powers to create or end life. Actually, they seem to frown upon most self-seeking behavior, and you can’t get more self-serving (but ironically self-destructive) than p*rn and m*sturbation (they usually come together.)
Whether or not this comes across as condecending, I’ve always thought that men are inherrently more subject to “the natural man” in those areas than women; therefore I’ve always viewed the Priesthood as a form of necessary spiritual discipline for men that is generally less- or un-necessary for women.
P*rnography and m*sterbation rot the very core of character, discipline, and positive self-image, and the loss of these can negatively affect all other aspects of one’s life.
(And incidentally, all are important traits in the progression toward exaltation.)
For me, I will always wonder what I could have accomplished in the most formative years of my life if my self-image had not been tarnished by guilt, self-doubt, and eroded character that this destructive combination wrought for more than 20 years.
Comment by anonmale — May 19, 2006 @ 4:22 pm
I won’t be participating in this discussion anymore. This is not a safe place. The post asked for our experiences, our thoughts, etc. but once we started doing that, others came out to tell us that we are wrong. This is not a safe place. I feel shamed for sharing, shamed for opening up to be told that I’m part of a “bunch of mormon women with huge hang-ups over the porn issue because their neo-Victorian lacks perspective on the issue.”
This is a trigger for me and I will no longer participate in posts about pronography addiction in the Bloggernacle. Safe places do exist for talking about this, 12-step fellowships for co-addicts, COSA, Al-Anon, etc. I strongly suggest that partners of addicts seek out help in their co-addiction. It is one of the only things that has helped me get “sane.”
This discussion is why no one gets real about this at Church.
Comment by M — May 19, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
Interestingly enough the medieval folk felt it was the women who had the freaked out sex drive; oversexed temptresses who given half a chance, would drag poor innocent men down to hell.
Cultural preconceptions differ widly, no?
I was at Barnes and Noble today and thumbed through a rather sobering book of eunuchism. Did you know that polygamy and eunuchism are often found in the same society? Not surprizing really; there weren’t enough women to go around. Plus the rich and powerful needed someone ’safe’ to guard their ‘property.’
Now days polygamous societies solve the excess male problem by creating ‘lost boys’.
And the leftover men as well . . .
N.O.
Comment by not ophelia — May 19, 2006 @ 7:21 pm
#47 –
Under doctor’s orders?
Sorry, but you don’t need porn for a sample. Have your wife go in there with you. Worked for us…
Comment by anon mormon woman — May 19, 2006 @ 7:22 pm
I was very glad to come accross this discussion. It is refreshing to see people out their with high moral standards, a live conscious and logical discusion of an issue.
The irony is that I stumbled accross this page while doing a porn related search.
I am a 39 year old married male from a different culture and a different religion (Moslem). I could not help but post my views here as I was struck by the amount of similarity in problems and views people have even with such a distance apart.
I have a problem with porn addiction myself (Internet). I am usually on and off where I pursue it for short intense periods and then get sick of my behavior, pray for forgiveness and quit. And I get week again. But giving up on this is not on my agenda. One of the reasons I decided to write is to supply my male perspective and experience. My view on this is as follows:
1. It is an addictive behavior. When I’m on I stay late, sometimes till 4:00 AM and wake up exhausted at 6:30 for work. If this is not addiction, I do not know what is addiction. It is even worse than smoking.
2. Erotic/Romantic novels are porn too. This is how I started when I was young. When someone is young the mind is sharp and the senses are pure. The written word is even more powerful than the visual material. Probably ladies who I think are emotionaly sharper and more sensetive than men are more suspectable to written material.
3. This behavior is wrong by all standards, religous, ethical or logical. Those who have the same problem as I do should never allow themselves to bend the principle and logic so that they can have a comfort zone to live with it. We must try to apply this over all ethical and religious matters that we come accross. People like to be consistent. Unfortounately, I see this day after day where people reject religion, laws, principles and ethics just so that they have a comfort zone and can maintain consistency in order not to be challenged by themselves or others. We should strive to be honset with ourselves, seek the truth and work on improving our behavior and not demolishing the principles which protect us knowing deep in our hearts and minds they are true just for the sake of defending a wrong action from our side or justifying a wrong source of pleasure. Demolishing those values will most probably lead the person to other negative behavior and lower ethical standards. At worst, doing this knowing its wrong is better then demolishing the whole framework.
4. From my experience I found that there are three main problems with porn:
- For people who get hooked on porn early, it raises their expectations when they come to the real thing. This could lead them to disappointment with their first experiences or lead to a faulty line of thought that they or their spouses are not normal or not loved. This needs to be highlighted to people so that it does not impact their relationships.
- Pursuing it for extended periods could be very harmful to health and relationships as it impacts sleep patterns, mode and may impact expenditure in extreme cases. In my case it was the sleep. The faster internet connection subscription is the expenditure, but very negligible in my case.
- It can alter the person’s sexual triggers and reactions. People can develop fetishes. Porn users sensations also become ‘numb’ over time and they will need harder and harder material. I noticed the porn industry is getting more extreme and more fetish over time. A Porn flick from the 70s might not even register as porn the todays user. People should also be made aware of this in order to protect themselves from harming their natural impulses.
To the ladies out there, on the positive side, porn does not make men look to ladies in a degraded manner. I look at women as sex objects? yes I do, but this is natural and healthy. This never impacted my respect for them in any shape or form. I do not expected other males to be any different here. I think that respect for women is not correlated to porn but to the character of the individual male. I also have been happily married for over ten years. My wife is a dream, in fact I love the whole ladies population bcause of her. We never even raised voices or had loud arguments over any matter so far and -except for this porn thing- every now and then I’ve never been unfaithful to her in any shape or form and by God’s will, never will be. I think the main reasons for the no loud disagreements between us is whenever I feel angry with an action she does I remind my self of how many times she did put up with the 1000 bad character sides of me. I never asked her, but I feel also she thinks the same way when she is angry with me. If you catch your husband with porn, try to remember this.
For any lady who catches her husband with porn this is my advice:
If he already loves you, you already know it and feel it. This does not change the fact that he loves you or mean that he is not commited to you. You need to express distress, disappointment and dissapproval to him but never overblow the situation or go into yelling or insults. You also should never approve this behavior. Also be careful not to put him in a corner where he has to defend his action as he might try to look for the wrong excuse and try to adjust the ethical frame of reference to justify this to you and himself. And do not try to monitor his actions afterwards just to try to catch him again. Most probably at worst cases this will greatly modify his behavior. Also try to take more care of him if you feel that he might have been asking and you were not in the mode lately. I notice that this is what usually kicks me back into the habit, or probably this is the justification that I use with myself when I start again.
As the gentelmen pointed out earlier, most men need more sex and for him the way he feels it is similar to his feeling of hunger for food. It is more tangible and physical than in the case of ladies. This is why this action from his side is not related to a decrease in love or commitment to you.
And as commented by Carlton earlier, I think his view is right. Men do need more sex than women. I watched many many talk shows and read many statistics about the relationship between spouses. Most of them point out that the man needs more. In in all cases the poor guy is being advised to introduce more feelings into his marriage. To put it plainly, this is like just talking someone for the rest of his life that one meal a day is enough and his request for more is not normal. Why do people insist on denying the obvious is beyond me. Please do not undertand me wrong. I am speaking about the nature and do not approve any means on pornography or unfaithfulness. I look so negatively on people who are not faithful to their spouses. Still, we need to deal with the truth.
Polygamy is the obvious answer to tidy up this situation for some men. But whenever this get suggested, you can’t immagine the backlash for some reason.
For Moslims Polygamy is legal in most countries. A man can marry up to four ladies. I lived among the Saudi comunity where this was very common until mid 80s. As contrary to most common beliefs, Polygamy is power for women. This is simple supply and demand economics. Men found it harder to find ladies, so they were very content with what they got, ladies were secure as they were in high demand, she is never worried of a divorce or of getting widowed. Even in her 60’s, a lady who got divorced or widowed could easily marry if she wanted to. This is simply because she will have a line of applicants to chose from. Now although legal over there, the practice is very uncommon. The ladies are happier, but a new set of problems started emerging, that there are scores of unmarried ladies, especially divorced ladies. Many of them will simply be alone for the rest of their lifes. Those are humans with needs, what do we expect the result will be?
As hated as it is by ladies, Polygamy does solve many problems and is a viable solution. By the way, you can not stop men from polygamy. Those who want the ladies, and get free from the religic and ethical barrier will simply go from one affair to another with no restraints, whether he was married or unmarried makes no difference for him.
I hope there is somthing useful in all the rambling I went through and wish you all rewarding relationships and happy families.
Comment by Nathan — May 19, 2006 @ 8:36 pm
M, I’m sorry that my comments have offended you. I’m saddened to learn that my comments have pushed you out of this discussion. I realize that this is a terribly important topic for you and many others, and I understand that you might be making life changing decisions based on your understanding of it. You should make the decision that you feel right about no matter what I say or what anyone else says, and no matter what decision you make there will be people who disagree with it.
I’ll try this from another point of view: If my daughter had the choice of marrying a man who couldn’t hold down a job, a man with a gambling problem, or a man with a porn problem (and none of the others), I’d chose the man with the porn problem. I think that it’s a huge mistake to take children away from a loving father because he looks at porn in private but is otherwise a great guy.
Anyway, I’m not just trying to be controversial here. If the admins felt that it was appropriate, they could delete all my comments and I wouldn’t mind at all.
Comment by DKL — May 19, 2006 @ 9:57 pm
DKL can be maddening as hell, and he is breaking records on this thread. Sometimes he should listen more and talk less. I try to tell him, but he doesn’t hear me…
M, I am sorry that you no longer think this thread is a safe place to post. No matter what, don’t let DKL get to you. He just doesn’t get it sometimes. He was distraught when he read your reaction to his comments. He can be a real jerk, but he never means to hurt anybody’s feelings. I am not making excuses for him. He should have stayed out of this discussion unless he wanted to share his personal experiences and talk about how it has impacted our marriage.
Go ahead DKL…
Comment by skl — May 19, 2006 @ 10:15 pm
Oh, the pain and the disgust I’m reading on this thread, along with differing degrees of earnestness and even some hysteria. I found I recognized some written styles (can’t take the teacher out of the man) so as my style is also known I decided not to post anonymously.
It’s true that the taboo is different to each of us, the line in the sand is drawn at a different spot for every one of us. Yet, few seem to understand that, and feel threatened by others’ points of view as if those ideas directly indict their own personal worthiness. My daughter calls this the zero sum game, I believe it’s also known by Covey in a different name.
My own experience: I have viewed / read / rented / bought / prurient things. I have no problem with much of what I was exposed to. Yet, even I have a line in the sand over which I will not cross…things that do not appeal to me and even disgust and horrify me. But I recognize that it’s my own issue and I feel I’m pretty even keeled.
I started reading my dad’s books and mags, hidden in his top drawer, and the writing was so vivid in the books that I can recall some of it to this day. I was about 7 when I saw my first underworld cartoon book, long ago in the early 60-s.
I am one of those females who very much enjoys two men together. I have no idea why this is, that I like gay material more, it just is, and has always been this way.
My husband is not threatened by it, as I am not threatened by his occasional viewings of things that he enjoys. (Notice I’m trying to word things to avoid the web marshall !)
We subscribe to the ubiquitous men’s mag, it has mild pictures and usually some great libertarian articles. I read it, he looks at it.
I’m incredibly fat but even when I was a ‘babe’ I wasn’t threatened by the looking that my husband did. I also couldn’t tell you why it doesn’t bother me, except that those things are not real, and I am. He loves me. He only looks at those things.
I don’t mean to downplay the dangers of addictive compulsive behaviors. But I do not believe this issue to be more dangerous than many other compulsions, just more of a hot button emotional issue for some people, who can’t have a reasonable discussion because they can’t change how they react to the mere thought of it…such as M, who feels it isn’t safe here and seemed to feel attacked. Even though I don’t have the same reaction, I respect M’s right to feel that way. M is different from me and has a different line in the sand.
However, I really think DKL was trying to communicate the same compulsion concepts as I am. Maybe neither of us are very successful in our efforts, which is a civil way to express this. Disagreeing with others can be done without being disagreeable.
Hmm. Not very direct, again, am I ???
Comment by Darlene — May 19, 2006 @ 11:07 pm
I should also add that my sister in law was very threatened by her husband’s compulsive usage of his favorite type of material. It kept him up for hours, and he caused huge phone bills to those numbers we all recognize the prefix for.
It didn’t destroy their marriage, but it took him all his strength to stop the usage, and start being active in the church again and my understanding is that he is no longer giving in to his compulsions.
I believe the church activities deserve much credit for his strength in stopping the habit.
So while I said before that I do not have this issue with my own husband, I do know someone who did.
And as I said, it’s a difference of the tolerable line in the sand.
Comment by Darlene — May 19, 2006 @ 11:19 pm
I tend to agree with the general line of reasoning going on here that there is far too much hysteria in our culture in regards to sex in general and masterbation and pron specifically.
Which is NOT to say that women who find out their husbands have been viewing pron and feel betrayed are hysterical. (a word often used to dismiss the importance of women’s opinions). I’m not sure how I’d react if I found out my husband used porn. I suppose it would depend on the circumstances, these things generally are complex like that. But I’m sure there are all kinds of circumstance where upset is more than justified, and hysterical even, perfectly understandable. There is a lot of really vile stuff out there.
I tend to agree that we throw the word addiction around far too much, in fact the original submitted title of this post was “addicts” instead of “users” and I changed it because I think we way over-use the word addict, and thus undermine its meaning. I do think you can be addicted to porn, and even to sex, but I think we’re far too eager to tag the term onto anyone who uses porn. If we call everyone who uses porn an addict, then “addict” doesn’t really mean much of anything powerful.
Which isn’t to say I approve of people using pron casually, because I don’t think it’s healthy, period.
I also agree that “pornography” is going to be different in every culture. In fact the legal definiton of pron is tied directly to the culture, pron is what the majority of people find offensive. For me, the line is crossed not with nudity or even sexual content, there are lots of things with nudity and sexual content that most of us would agree is not pron, but a big part of what makes it cross the porn line for me is the dehumanization. But that’s just my opinion, and it’s obvious many of you would disagree with me.
I hate pron, on so many levels I don’t even know where to begin. But still, I start to get twitchy when when people go on rants about Victoria’s Secret and the like.
It’s a two-edged sword, ya know,
I’m not a fan of Victoria Secret, women’s bodies are being used to sell stuff, and set impossible narrow stupid standards of female beauty. I wouldn’t shed a tear if every beauty magazine dropped off the face of the planet, But it cuts the other way too, hide our bodies, cover our faces, hide us in the back room . . . We’re Still Being Objectified. And I fear that those rants about Victoria’s Secret aren’t about valueing women’s souls, but about COVERING our BODIES, rather than EXPOSING them. Which in my opinion cuts just as deeply and with as much damage.
Pron is never going to disappear, and our cultural consensus as to what it *is*, is never going to be static or particularly clear. But I like to think that if we ever manage to truly value women, see women as fully human and deserving of dignity (and I do think we make slow progress in this direction), then pron could lose much of its broad appeal. How very appallingly optimistic of me.
Comment by fMhLisa — May 20, 2006 @ 1:29 am
obi-wan and jjohnson,
i’m talking about a DISCUSSION that naturally happens TWICE a year (if that often) when the topic comes up. i believe women are naive and don’t realize the ease of access and the huge temptation that is there. wives should ask their husbands. perhaps you are different and have no interest, but for most men who are not even porn users, it’s still a temptatation that occurs periodically through out a lifetime. Perhaps your right that it should not be advice given to everybody by a church leader. Personally I feel it has helped my relationship because its NOT taboo for us to discuss the issue together and my trust increases everytime the topic closes for the season.
The stake leader you are “shaming” asks this question in every temple reccomend interview. It’s obviously a problem, and he feels it neccesarry.
lets ask, LADIES? Do you ask (in a respectful disscussion) your husband about potential porn use? Or do you feel it would be accusatory and rather not?If you don’t, have you not thought to ask? Or would you rather not know? Do you think they might lie or feel accused?
Comment by anonymous — May 20, 2006 @ 5:32 am
Or do you search internet history and hard drives secretly?
Comment by t — May 20, 2006 @ 5:45 am
The stake leader you are “shaming” asks this question in every temple reccomend interview.
Yes, I’ve had stake leaders ask that kind of question — in fact I’ve had stake leaders ask all kinds of questions, some of them quite graphic and some bordering on appalling. Fortunately this is rare, but over the years I’ve had various stake leaders decide that they really need to ask all the members about bestiality or pedophilia or whatever.
My answer always is: you have in front of you a set of questions that I am required to answer to report my worthiness for a temple recommend. After I’ve answered those questions, I’d be happy to talk about whatever you want to talk about. But let’s finish let’s the questions that the First Presidency wanted answered before you start free-styling.
Usually they are smart enough to drop their pet topic at that point. Once or twice I’ve had someone raise their pet question again after the standard questions and I tell them “no” and ask them if there are any other fringe topics they want to discuss, and they look sheepish. It’s nice when authoritarianism occasionally works in your favor.
I could also go into detail about the incredibly bad and sexist marital advice I’ve gotten from stake leaders over the years, but that is a different thread, I think.
Comment by obi-wan — May 20, 2006 @ 12:27 pm
#28.
Haha!!! My husband does that!!!
#41.
Do you think that it’s theoretically possible for explicit images and stories to present a realistic imageof sexuality?
(I mean this as a serious question, and not rhetorical or facteious.)
Comment by C.L. Hanson — May 20, 2006 @ 1:13 pm
obi-wan is right. In fact, priesthood leaders are specifically directed NOT to ask other questions than the one that are written in front of them. It says this in recommend book, right above the questions themselves. When your bishop or stake president starts freelancing, he is acting against the established order of the church, and members should not hesitate to point that out.
Comment by been there — May 20, 2006 @ 2:15 pm
Sex addiction is like food addiction, because we all need “some.” And for those of us who are single, when we do do our regular “falling from grace,” we’re gonna imagine images of sexy women — whether the girls next door or professionally “erotic” models of whatever level of decency.
Comment by Kimball L. Hunt — May 20, 2006 @ 7:30 pm
#78…”Do you think that it’s theoretically possible for explicit images and stories to present a realistic image of sexuality? ”
I’m not sure what you’re asking. Are you wondering if the material is realistic with regards to physical looks & activity presented, and the written stuff with regards to storyline?
I think the answer is YES, and NO. I believe the bodice rippers that pass for romance novels present an UNREALISTIC image of romance itself, giving some ‘virtuous’ women their naughty material in the guise of a ‘love story’.
Some non romance fiction novelists toss in the raw and horrible stuff because they are pretending they must do this to be realistic… wasn’t there some scandal over fiction with purient material written by a recent pseudo conservative administration insider?
And the physical perfection of most of the images is not realistic (let’s face it, I would not be approached to model unless it was for fetish purposes of those who enjoy fat ugly old women) for the majority of the viewers. (In the 70-s I was alternately revolted and amused by the chutzpah of Larry Flynt for his devotion to the neighborhood average-looking woman’s pics in his mag. No airbrushes there!)
But as to realistically portraying the actual activities some folks (or many folks) engage in, yes, I think both forms can be considered realistic much of the time.
The sad thing is that SOMEONE wants the weird stuff that I would characterize as well over my own line in the sand, or it wouldn’t be commercially viable.
Comment by Darlene — May 20, 2006 @ 7:39 pm
obi wan, point taken.
Comment by anonymous — May 20, 2006 @ 11:51 pm
My problem wasn’t Stake leaders and spouses asking about porn use, my problem was a Stake leader suggesting spouses accuse their husbands of porn use.
Comment by jjohnsen — May 21, 2006 @ 8:01 am
I don’t watch television. At all. But this blurb from Salon.com’s arts and entertainment editor caught my eye:
Never seen the show, but for those that do watch it, what do you think?
Just wondering.
N.O.
Comment by not ophelia — May 21, 2006 @ 4:06 pm
I’m a man and the show almost makes me gag but a woman friend I often watch the show with really loves it. It’s all about female pining. Of course all those glossy coffee table mags featuring the insides of beautiful, expensive houses and all those bridal mags are I think what’s REALLY “pornography for women”! lol
Comment by Kimball L. Hunt — May 21, 2006 @ 7:24 pm
How does porn use affect a Mormon marriage?
The obvious place is in the husband and wife’s sexual relationship. The respect levels of both spouses are shot. Sometimes I would try to join in viewing or reading the materials, but it didn’t make things better. When the unrealistic expectations that porn promulgates are unmet, there will be some sort of abuse. Maybe it will only be verbal or emotional, some rude remarks about not living up to the spouses’ end of the bargain… Maybe it will turn physical, anger manifested against property or worse, against the partner.I know some people may believe that sex between a married couple cannot be rape, but believe me, it can be and it’s devestating. Waking up in the middle of the night, being tackled as I’m walking out of the shower… The more graphic the material involved the greater the sexual deviancy the harder it is to put that genie back in the bottle. Mutually beneficial intimacy becomes boring to the porn user, nigh impossible to achieve any degree of closeness. Eventually I asked for it to stop, and he accused me of trying to ruin our marriage. Sexual relations were his right, and I was treating him poorly to cut him off like that. If I wouldn’t treat him right, someone else would, you know. The Gin Blossoms have a song “You can’t call it cheating, cause she reminds me of you” He would claim that he was doing it for us, because all the ideas and gleaned fantasties were about him and me, even if we weren’t ourselves. When we could not be togethether (I was visiting family out of state, or when I was on bedrest) the self-gratification increased. He was repeatedly sexually abused as a young child, taught to develop a sexual appetite, and had been feeding on a steady stream of porn thanks to that family member. The “norms” he was taught about sex still affect our marriage, his self image, our romantic sex life, and ultimately how I will act/react to his problems. I could go on with more examples, but I think this may be graphic enough for this explanation.
No self-respecting woman could be a participant in or a party to the consumption of pornographic materials. I repeat, no self-respecting woman could allow it
DKL, I believe that you were one who said that you couldn’t see how porn could end a marriage? It damn near killed ours. It has been through the God’s grace that I don’t hate the man and everything to do with our bodies. and myself for not speaking up sooner. When confronted with the end of the marriage or continued porn use, My husband chose me in that ultimatum, and it’s been hell trying to get back to any sort of properly functional sex life. 10 years… Hell that could have been avoided without a porn user. I’d tell DKL’s daughter to run screaming into the night rather than enter into a porn filled relationship. Those good boys can’t help but be tainted and twisted and contaminated by the sleaze, and ulitmately DKLdaughter, you and your little family would be too.
I don’t know if this was what you were looking for Jenna, but it’s my incoherent experience.
Comment by weary wifey — May 22, 2006 @ 2:04 am
#65 –
“Sorry, but you don’t need porn for a sample. Have your wife go in there with you. Worked for us…”
Really? That’s amazing, do you live in Happy Valley by chance?
I have never heard of a fertility clinic, Midwest USA, that allows the wife to participate in the sample collection. Because (according to infertilitytutorials.com):
“The collection of the sample is important. Basic instructions include:
Call the office to schedule the semen analysis to avoid delays in evaluating the sample.
-Sexual abstinence for at least 2 days but not longer than 7 days before obtaining the sample.
-Obtain the sample by manual masturbation only. There should be no vaginal, oral or anal contact with the penis since this may result in a poor result. Avoid using lubricants since they may be toxic to sperm.
-Collect the entire semen specimen in a warm, clean, wide mouthed, plastic or glass container. It is very important to obtain the whole specimen. Also, please check to be sure the top is properly fastened to prevent spillage.
-Label the specimen with both names (of partners), the period of abstinence, the date, and the time of collection.
-The specimen must arrive at the lab within about 1 hour of collection and should be protected from temperature extremes (cold or warm).”
With all those controls in place it’s a miracle that a man could even get it up. Porn seems like the logical stimulant, in such circumstances. Maybe the clinics should supply romance novels instead?
Comment by Carlton — May 22, 2006 @ 10:53 am
While it’s shown that a great majority of sexual deviants have used pornography it’s not in the least bit factual that all or even most pornography users will become sexual deviants.
Deviancy and sexual abuses would happen if porn existed or not. Anyone with abusive behaviors, addictive behaviors, selfish narcissistic behaviors, is going to have a difficult time sustaining a marriage. All these behaviors can go hand in hand with anything we use to excess, be it work, alcohol, online gaming, drugs, gambling, sports, food, overparenting, religious zealousness. You can stick any behavior in the avoiding intimacy and personal accountability slot. It’s all the same…though the side effects of some are more insidious than others.
I’ve never cared if my spouse viewed porn. He knows where my line is. (Not that I’m his boss, or his keeper.) He’s never crossed it nor does he wish to.
Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — May 22, 2006 @ 11:23 am
Did you know that only about 25% of people who try heroin get addicted, and that’s about the highest addiction rate of any drug. Maybe it’s the same with porn. Growing up in Southern California, I saw Playboys and Penthouses left out on the coffee table in my friends’ homes, and I did get a strange, magical kick out of those. But fortunately I did not get addicted.
More recently, my wife and I did some fertility work, and I had to sit in a clinical room and produce samples on several occasions. I did not feel comfortable having my wife come in and help, so I opened the drawer and looked at the mags. I had to hurry though, because the initial rush soon gave way to a really sleazy, disgusting sense. I haven’t had any desire to keep looking at those mags since we finished our fertility work, but they did help at that time to get me over the initial hump in that clinic. I wonder how many males have developed a problem with porn because of fertility work? By the way, I did not feel at all guilty looking at the porn in the clinic setting.
Most recently, I’ve had to stop blog surfing because once in a while I came across a pornographic blog, and at one point I found myself blog surfing more and more often with the hope that a porn blog would randomly come up. Fortunately, this has not been difficult to stop. I’m grateful not to have an addictive personality and hope I never do stumble across some form of porn that does break through my addiction barrier. I have friends and family members who carry porn addictions…
Comment by Christopher Bigelow — May 22, 2006 @ 11:49 am
Sorry to hear that Christopher, but you’re obviously a lost cause. You knowingly chose to look at it while you masturbated, and more than once. You’re an addict!
Comment by Carlton — May 22, 2006 @ 12:23 pm
Since comment #41 was mine:
Do you think that it’s theoretically possible for explicit images and stories to present a realistic imageof sexuality?
I think it’s theoretically possible, sure. It wouldn’t sell however (which means that nobody would make it) and it still runs into the fact that anything imagined– no matter how realistically portrayed it may be in the original media– is still imbued with all kinds of attributes and expectations that we ourselves may not even be aware of. It’s the nature of the life of the mind.
Comment by Proud Daughter of Eve — May 22, 2006 @ 1:02 pm
I am married to a recovering addict and I have to say, dealing with his addiction was the hardest thing I have ever gone through. I knew about his addiction before we were married, but he had basically been clean since before we started dating, so I wasn’t really worried. I think it was always in the back of my mind though. Once we got married, I always had a really difficult time with sex… I think I always wondered whether he was thinking about porn or me. About 6 months into our marriage he told me he had been looking at porn 4-5 times a week for the past month and I was devastated. Honestly, I cannot express the darkness and devastation I felt. I considered leaving him, but honestly, I couldn’t face the embarassment of my marriage only lasting 6 months. I was completely incapacitated for the first 2 weeks– I didn’t go to school or work. I just cried all day. I have never felt such betrayal. How could he look at porn and then come home and have sex with me and not tell me? Needless to say, it killed our sex life. Even though he told me he didn’t think of porn when we were together, he experienced the same physiological reactions. It did not make sense to me. After a couple weeks I realized it wasn’t my fault. I hadn’t done something to cause it, but I wondered what I hadn’t done in order to prevent it. I have never experienced anything more horrible.
Luckily we started going to the Church sponsored 12-step group meetings which have basically saved me, my husband, and our marriage. I have never felt so alone. My husband wasn’t worthy to give me a blessing, he couldn’t go to the temple with me, and our bishop was a little weird. He told me that I needed to not make myself the victim because I had already forgiven him in the pre-existence. He was full of speculation, false doctrine, etc.
Now, three months later, my husband has been “sober” (as they call it in the 12-step meetings) for 90 days on Friday. I am still trying to re-build trust. I have serious fears that he will relapse again. I worry that he will relapse and not tell me– again. It will take a long time to get over this. However, our marriage is so much stronger. I feel so much closer to him and it certainly kicked my butt into gear to be a more spiritual person.
Regarding my feminism, porn makes me so angry… sometimes my husband doesn’t take my passion for feminism very seriously and I wonder how much it is because of his family (very traditional) and how much it is because of the porn. I don’t know… it’s hard to reconcile sometimes. That’s an entirely different topic I think… has my feminism lessened since getting married? Is that bad?
Anyway, pornography addiction is one of the most evil things on this earth. To say a little here, a little there does no harm… nothing could be more wrong. I am terrified to have children– sons really– for fear they will be come addicted to this horrible filth.
Comment by c — May 23, 2006 @ 7:30 pm
“It shames one’s spouse into a lack of self esteem. It makes his brain so cluttered and noisy that a wife’s way of being–sexual and non-sexual–cannot be recognized or sufficient. It takes the most sacred thing my spouse and I can have together and profanes it, makes our sexual union common. It makes us not need each other. Since we no longer exist in a realm where physical desire is celebrated and satiated within marital boundaries, pornography makes it clear that my spouse and can take care of those needs on our own. It obliterates trust.”
Those words could have come from the mouths of many of my dear friends. You can’t take “sacred” out of “sacred union” and still expect me to believe it’s the same thing. It DOES cause unrealistic expectations, ask men who are trapped by a compulsive need for porn in order to satisfy themselves. Blurring one line makes it a lot easier to blur the next line, and the next. Abuse, anger…these are very real things that come from porn. It was hard for me to reconcile that people I consider family were doing horrible things in their lives. But they are people who make mistakes, just like I do. I’m not punished because I crave a Jack and Coke, I am rewarded because I don’t give in. Isn’t that why we are here, to be tested?
You can shoot the “open-minded” and “intellectual” at me all day. I know as well as anyone that if you really want to do something you can find a reason that makes it “okay”. I can talk myself into or out of anything, that’s why I am so grateful to have the Gospel, it is steadfast and unchanging when I am not.
Romance novels can easily be a womans version of porn. A close friend read them with such vigor and obsession that she began to wonder why her life wasn’t like the books. They sounded so much better than what she had to deal with every day. She cheated on her husband repeatedly and has destroyed her family and others as well, all because she wanted to continue that elated feeling of “romance” beyond the time when she closed the book. Blurred lines can become a very dangerous thing.
Comment by MarissaS — May 23, 2006 @ 11:51 pm
Carlton,
when I was utlra-conservative Catholic, my friends who had fertllity testing would get their semen smaples through regular intercourse, catching the semen in a special perforated condom.
I supose most medical guidelines can be flexible to allow for religious needs, if you make your needs known to them.
Comment by cchrissyy — May 24, 2006 @ 4:10 pm
Cchrissy,
I noticed at Spendidsun you mentioned the perforated condom technique, “perforated because in the RCC you can’t use condoms. It lets some through, theoretically, but still catches enough for testing.” I found that info a little amusing; people do funny things to live the letter of the law.
I’m sure there are many techniques to analyze the sample, but the in-the-office method is obviously the most efficient. Other techniques include the condom technique you mentioned and onanism (coitus interruptus), spilling the seed into a special collection container. (Of course the coitus interruptus may create another morally unacceptable situation for the over-the-top orthodox religionist). Those unfamiliar with sperm analysis may wonder why any Mormon would opt for the in-the-office method, especially because of the porn involved. It is because the sperm should be analyzed in a timely manner (i.e. within one hour). So for those living far from their clinic, it may be impossible to get the sample to the lab in time.
I appreciate your information, but for some it is not a viable option. That is, if they’re really serious about procreating within the parameters the Church has outlined in the GHI.
Comment by Carlton — May 25, 2006 @ 8:55 am
Pornography is, I think, a symptom of a deeper soul-sickness in our religious society.
At the MTC, there were people telling us that open-mouthed kissing was a horrifying sin (even in marriage). That the only music worth listening to was from the hymn book. And so forth. Male missionaries where not even allowed to baptize female missionaries at the temple when doing work for the dead - so as to avoid possible misconduct. Everywhere around, there is a feeling that it is grossly immoral to even notice a beautiful body at the beach.
I grew-up in a family where my grandmother would say that every woman who was showing any part of her body, was “asking to get raped”.
People in the church are made to feel that their bodies exist for the sole purpose of popping-out children as many and as fast as possible, regardless of financial or health concerns.
With food, being pretty-much the only enjoyment that one does not get in trouble for, many in the church gain massive amounts of weight.
So picture a man in the church (or woman perhaps) who has spent their life keeping a huge, plethora of rules for the sake of either fitting in, or not being sent to hell. This person marries, and before they even have the slightest taste of the life of marriage, that they have worked so hard to have, there is a baby on the way. Soon there is a second. There is no money to do anything as a couple, no time, etc. Waistlines begin to expand. Debts increase, and there is, all the while, a massive pressure to be ‘happy’. If in the midst of all of this, one could simply click a button, and experience an simple, uncomplicated sexual emotion, there would certainly be a lot temptation to revisit this.
We are spiritual being sent here to have physical experiences!
When I was in college, I was terrified of taking a required life-drawing class, because I might be corrupted! You know what? It was probably one of my healing experiences of my life. If we, as a group, were not under such guilt complexes and were permitted to take life just a little bit easier, there would not be the interest in quick-fixes (be them porn, overeating, gambling etc). The trick is to help people do what is right because it IS right, not because they ’should’. If a boy sees a beautiful woman, he should not feel bad because he sees her as beautiful, he should see her as somebody’s wife, daughter or sister, and see that beauty in the context of a deeper spiritual beauty.
In wartime, there are sacrifices that must be made, but when the sacrifice becomes an end in itself (without cause), there is a warping of the emotions that results in bad behaviors that are very hard to stop without fixing the internal problems that caused them.
Comment by ava — May 25, 2006 @ 10:00 am
“People in the church are made to feel that their bodies exist for the sole purpose of popping-out children as many and as fast as possible, regardless of financial or health concerns. ”
I’ve always heard about how “the church” does that to people, but I’ve never actually seen it in practice anywhere. Quite the opposite actually. Does this really happen in the majority or is it one of those Mormon culture perceptions? Either way, I think it’s still a poor justification for a persons use of porn in place of a healthy relationship.
Comment by MarissaS — May 26, 2006 @ 1:58 pm
I think a misconception that a lot of women have regarding their husband’s porn use, or their husband’s affair with another woman for that matter, is that it’s all about how he sees her.
Usually this isn’t descriptive of the whole problem.
Many cheated-on women were actually surprised at how plain the “other woman” was.
I just want to say to these women - your husband’s sexual deviancy really isn’t about you or your inadequacies. It’s about him.
And that’s a big part of the problem. He’s creating an inward reality. It’s primarily an emotional and mental state that occurs almost independently of actual reality surrounding him. The details are incredibly confused and complex.
I agree with c’s comment that this can be very destructive (and not just for the woman). But her comment about wondering whether “he is thinking about porn when he’s with me” got me thinking.
Is it really about the images?
Or is it that you are wondering whether he really loves you?
That question can only partially be answered by where he’s getting sexual satisfaction.
Despite popular stereotypes, sex for a man is not primarily visually motivated. It’s an emotional experience. The addict is creating an internal emotional state where he can get some of the emotional connection he needs.
I don’t think stopping at the outward behaviors and literature really addresses what is going on. Pavlovian theories are completely inadequate to fully understand this.
End point: it’s all really complex.
It’s unrealistic for the woman to think (a) if I was more sexy, he wouldn’t need this; (b) if he’d just stop the behavior, everything would be fine; (c) he loves those porn stars more than me; (d) it’s all my fault; or (e) it’s not my fault at all. These are all superficial reactions to an internal problem. The problem is primarily in his head.
Any response that focuses solely on you (the wife) or focuses only on outward symptoms (behaviors) misses the main point.
I also believe that a really violent reaction from the wife to the revelation that he’s “looking around” reflects not just problems with the husband, but also the possibility of real insecurities the wife has about the whole relationship (which might not even be primarily about his porn use).
Comment by Seth R. — May 26, 2006 @ 3:26 pm
Carlton 92:)
sorry, I didnt’ remember ever eentioning it onliene before.
but let my point be clear: If the super-Catholics can do that, than an LDS couple could ask for more mainstream acomodations, such as catching the sample during standard intercourse with a standard condom, coitus interuptus, or by manual stimualtion by the wife in the office.
your “doctor’s orders” excuse for an occassion of pn or masterbation rings unture to me. We can always refuse medical tretaments if they offend our ethical boundries. I’m glad to know people do ask for the ethical acomodations they need, but then have the backbone to refuse the tests and procedures that cross their line.
Comment by cchrissyy — May 29, 2006 @ 11:36 am
There are many truths about this but here’s part of mine. It is about MY problem, not my wife’s. I am a cup with no bottom. No amount of love or stimulation can satisfy until I am whole enough to retain it. But I did learn that the atonement makes us whole. In overcoming the fall it equalizes our life, bringing us before God without any of the scars that aren’t our choices. I want my wife to know that she can be healed of what happened to her that my addiction has only compounded. He wants our will and makes up for all that isn’t US.
Comment by recovering — May 30, 2006 @ 9:43 pm
Dear Friends: Though I did not take the time to read all the above posts I wish to leave a very pertinent comment. In the course of our very long marriage I became gradually aware of my husband’s addiction to porn. He has REFUSED to have any sexual rapport with me since the conception of our last child (over 30 years ago), refuses to speak about it or about anything else concerning our private life. In case you wonder what kind of an indiote I am, let me tell you without going into deep details at this time that after all my soul searching deep analysis of my own situation, I needed to stay in order to better protect my children (it did work, they are terrific). The comment I wish to make and did not notice it mentioned is this: If he is that deep into porn, he is using prostitutes, perhaps an occational emotional affair at the same time as the prostitutes; and then maybe he is also involved in secret molestations of younger people. If he has money, you’d be surprised what a successfully anonymous industry this is. As we speak I am trying to investigate a relationshipe that smaks of just that! If porn is a problem in your household ANYTHING becomes possible and you should actively search the clues. If he is in charge of the family finances (as my husband is) start finding the passed records and analyze them. Is the proportion of your debts greater that what you see materializing in your home? The money is being “pissed” away somewhere else…believe me! Young women who are dating young men from dysfunctonal families should watch the behavior of the MOTHER. If the mother is dysfunctional…or doesn’t feel quite right, RUN. Chances are good that her children are scarred for life. If one wishes to still go ahead with that relationship, then please be realistic and start goinginto counseling now, before marriage. I have now lived a rather long life and I speak with the knowledge of personal experience, observation and all this out of love and concern that others will hopefullly find more peace and happiness than I have. Best wishes to all.
Comment by Frannie Zuller — May 31, 2006 @ 2:37 am
Cchrissyy,
You got me pegged, no backbone and excuses. Your hyper-religiosity approach to dealing with life (infertility in this case) is troubling to me. You seem to be in the “black and white” mode of thinking. Instead of addressing my comments about efficiency and viability of the sample you attack my integrity and prop yourself and “others” up as “ethical.” No worries though, my wife and I have been dealing with members (not leadership) like you in our Branch for over three years. One couple claims that God blessed them because they refused to have their sperm analyzed (an obvious stiff-jab at our spritual standing). Of course, it was later discovered that the source of the infertility was not sperm related.
So tell me, how did you personally deal with the “doctor’s orders,” since it “rings untrue to you?” Or, have you personally dealt with infertility? If so, sorry, and glad you can sympathize with our situation.
CTR! Do what is right, let the consequence follow!
Comment by Carlton — May 31, 2006 @ 8:04 am
so sweet of you to ask.
We didn’t need semen testing, all 3 of our babies died after normal conceptions.
the story is completely inaporopriate and insensitive to the topic at hand.
I only engaged you on the idea of “medical orders” to masterbate and/or veiw Pn. Doctors orders don’t ever trump God’s.
Comment by cchrissyy — May 31, 2006 @ 9:23 pm
shoot, I didn’t mean to say “all 3″. we lost 3 in the last 4 years. but we do have 2 alive as well.
Comment by cchrissyy — May 31, 2006 @ 9:25 pm
Cchrissyy,
I’m terribly saddened to hear of your losses. My heart is broken trying to fathom the pain it must have caused you.
So, do God’s orders (promptings) ever trump commandments (the law)? Of course the answer is yes. Otherwise Nephi was a murderer, and Christ a blasphemer. The scriptures are filled with examples of commandments being trumped by the Spirit’s promptings, especially when the greater good is at stake (that was Nephi’s “excuse”). And that’s one of the reasons I find the “black and white” approach to life’s difficult questions troubling. The approach is often employed by orthodox religionist to demonstrate their spiritual superiority.
My original post was simply meant to address the notion of “no justification by a Latter-day Saint.” That statement is simply not true otherwise I’d be facing some sort of church discipline. With mysterious infertility problems on the rise, you may someday face the horrible dilemma of not sustaining a Priesthood leader who donated an in-the-clinic sperm sample. What will you do? Will you stand and proclaim, “He’s a porn using masturbator, stone him!!!! and his pregnant wife!!!”
Also, your experience with fertility demonstrates your inability to empathize with those suffering in hopes to fulfill the “multiply” commandment. Therefore, I no longer find fault in your assertion (#96) that I and my wife are unethical and have no backbone. You’re simply ignorant of the various details.
Finally, unlike you, I have no interest in being like the “super-Catholics.” Besides, aren’t the super-Catholics the Priests and Nuns?
Comment by Carlton — June 1, 2006 @ 11:58 am
My husband admitted he was looking at porn about a year into our marriage. I was 20 years old and very niave. I didn’t know what porn even was before – I was just really stupid. When he told me, he said that I was too clingy to him and he couldn’t handle it so he turned to porn.
So he never forced me to try any new positions or anything to satisfy him. But because of the way this was all presented to me, I believed that if I didn’t do everything in my power to satisfy him, he would go back to porn. I felt like it was my responsibility to keep him satisfied or he would revert back to porn. There was a place where he felt satisfied. And I was just trying to keep up with that. So while he never physically forced me to have sex with him or do it in a certain way, I definitely felt like I had no choice in the matter, that is if I wanted him to only look at me. Especially after he told me that I didn’t fulfill his wifely expectations.
He admitted to a porn problem again recently and this time, it was because I wasn’t fulfilling his needs. He wanted me to love him like a lesbian. I left. Because when it comes down to it, I can never love him like a lesbian. And maybe he meant that in an innocent way somehow – I don’t know. What bothers me is that he wants my love for him to match what he feels off these images. And I can never match that and be real. He attempted to go through the 12-step (through the book on his own) but then later got mad at me for “forcing” him to do it and thus tell my family about his problems instead of just keeping it between the two of us.
The porn wasn’t the whole reason why I left. But his reaction to it and blaming me for it is a bigger part of why I left. But if I would have stayed, it would have taken an enormous amount of time and effort to get over feeling “cheated” on. Maybe porn is a pure-blooded American male past time. All I know for sure is that for me, it hurt and if this is a normal male activity, I will chose a single life from here on out. It’s not worth the pain of being second rate to some image on a computer screen.
Just a thought from one woman affected by porn.
Comment by Sarah — June 2, 2006 @ 9:53 am
My husband has been dealing with a porn addiction for much of his life.
I first found out about it 4 years ago when I woke up in the night. He had the lap top in bed. I won’t go into detail.
We have been through the rounds three times now. It has been horrible. I love him, and I told him that as long as he was trying to overcome it, I would be there to help him.
It is an addiction. It is not okay. There are two purposes to sex….procreation and bringing a couple closer together. Porn accomplishes neither, so I don’t understand how LDS people, with testimonies of the truthfulness of the gospel could somehow think it wasn’t a big deal.
Heavenly Father has given us commandments or “rules” to follow so that we can avoid pain. Too many people think that commandments limit our choices in life.
It is a fight that we deal with every day. Probably for the rest of our lives. It’s not fun, and it’s not sexy. It hurts, and it demeans.
We’ve had 9 good days now, and it feels good. But the fear of the future and temptations it will bring may never completely go away.
Listen to the prophet and stay away from porn. It does nothing good. If you have made it this far with out any scars (at least that you can see) you are lucky.
Comment by Sophie — June 14, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
Sophie,
I just wanted to say that I feel for you! I am so sorry you have had to go through this. I’ve been through it to and I have never felt so alone. So even if this doesn’t help so much, everytime I find out about a wife going through this, I just want them to know they aren’t alone, even though it feels like it.
Has your husband tried the 12-step program? It has really helped my husband immensely. And depending on where you live, at least in Utah, they have support groups for the wives of addicts too.
Anyway, I like what you said about the reasons for sex: procreation and bringing a couple closer together. Porn doesn’t fit into that definition in anyway. I guess you just put into words what I have been thinking this whole time.
The pornography industry makes me so furious. I wish there were something I could do to make it go away. Americans– humans, whatever, just don’t understand that porn is EVIL! Why is that?
Comment by cmac — June 15, 2006 @ 4:45 pm
On of the important things were supposed to learn in this life is to leave the “natural man” behind. Whether its smoking, porn, eating too much, watching too much tv, hunting too much, exercising too much (to an extreme) etc. you have to be able to control your addictions, control your passions, control your impulses.
We must transcend our impulses. This does not make those impulses inherently bad. But once you give up your agency and willing act on whatever whim comes your way you have left the iron rod far behind.
Polygamy is clearly not the answer to an over active sex drive. That has absolutely no basis in scripture or doctrine. If you crave sex all the time (like I and many men do) you need to attempt to exercise some self control. That’s a lot easier said than done, but remember we’re not here to do it all on our own, and we should never think we are.
It is NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE otherwise. You have a loving Father in Heaven and the Holy Spirit to turn to for guidance. A Savior to pay for your sins when you fall. No body is perfect. Remember you’re not alone in this struggle.
Comment by Saddened — June 16, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
I am just curious…how do the husbands get a hold of this stuff? And when is it that they are looking at it? My husband works labor intensive construction all day, he comes straight home and spends the whole evening with me, he also goes to bed several hours before me ( i tend to stay up all night ).
Im just curious how are they doing it without your knowlege? And for such a long time. My husband has never really used it , not even as an adolescent. But I can’t even imagine going through this…WHAT HELL! I don’t know how I could ever be intimate with someone like that …ughhh. I mean forgive me for being so condescending but. Gosh I admire you women’s bravery. Sometimes I really think we are the stronger sex, but never given the credit.
Roman
The Surf Goddess
Comment by Roman ( yes I am female ) — June 16, 2006 @ 6:35 pm
…Sarah I am truly touched by all you said in your last post. It is heart wrenching to read all of this stuff…I still don’t understand tho, how was it that you weren’t fulfilling his wifely expectations? Reading that seriously made me want to vommit. And I concur, if this is the way men are, I would rather be single and celibate ( and much happier btw ) than deal with the horrible pain you have felt.
I dated a guy with this problem, and although I don’t know if its much different if your married I will say this, it warps the mind and it turns men into women hating/objectifying freaks.
I tried to have compassion on him but all i felt and saw was pure evil and no desire to change…(the 3 years wasted on him ). So I do know the pain. Luckily I found a sweet sensitive guy ( childhood friend ) who was never really into that.
Good luck to you.
With love
Roman
Comment by Roman ( yes I am female ) — June 16, 2006 @ 6:43 pm
TO ADDICTS AND VICTIMS ALIKE
Ok I am assuming this list is dead…however I would like to make a confession that I think might help some of you ( or rather disgust you )
I used to be a stripper and a prostitute-I even dabbled in the movies a bit. Now before you condemn me to hell let me speak. I have already posted twice before condemning this practice that I helped to promote.
I was 20 when I first got my job as a dancer, I was naive, poor, and young. My first day at work was very disturbing…but I blocked it out for a time. There was alot of pressure to be the best looking girl there ( hence money and attention ) so I did everything that I could. I was an object of desire, and it made me feel good -temporarily.
After months went by I began to drink, although I had been clean before, and not addicted to anything. And for those of you who think the girls that work in these places are normal…realit check they are not. Every girl I knew ( and I have worked at 6 different clubs and in different cities ) had major problems. Usually she was a single mother, and drug addict, usually very promiscuous, and violent. There where others who were serious drug addicts, getting infections from numerous abortions, some appeared to be normal at first.
I was one of those, i was pretty normal and didnt really fit in, I made good money and thats all I cared about. When I turned 21 I moved to a topless club ( so that I could drink while I worked ) I ignored what was happening to me, I lost friends due to my identity crisis. I was no longer me I was the dancer, the fantasy that I had to portray. Nevermind the fact after giving a lap dance or dancing on stage and collecting the money from all the eager young males, I would go in the back and get high and drink. And I would drink because I hated it. I didnt want to feel anymore. All the women there drank many drank enough by the end of the night to get alcohol poisoning.
I have had men say the most horrible things to me, many of them married with children. I often wondered if their wife knew or not. And the single guys i probably hated the most, very pompous trying to act cool and whatnot, all thinking that I was so lucky not to have to dance for some ugly old fart. But it got much worse as I went along.
Something sexually wrong…at first i became very promiscuous ( very common of strippers, and porn actresses ) not caring for the people just using them as things, like I was being used. my drinking got worse , to numb the feelings of humilation and objectification I felt. Most of the girls would get drunk together back stage and gossip about how revolting men where and how they loved their new-found ‘lesbian ‘ relationships. And I fell into that a little.
I no longer found men attractive no matter who they where, they where disgusting. Being surrounded by their cat calls, suggestive language, rubbing up on me. Everything came together to repulse me.
I became homeless for a while, and needed more money to support my addiction to alcohol, and spending money that I had acquired as a stripper. A friend suggested I become an escort. I was stupid but what did I care I was already damaged goods. I also had a couple friends who worked in porno…what a nightmare, most of these girls had eating disorders and where addicted to plastic surgery. Most lesbians disgusted by men, some sex addicts…and then there was me…
All of the things I did after this I wont get graphical…if anyone wants more information they can contact me…however. To this day tho I love my husband I cannot get those images out of my mind. It has taken several years of recovery to start to feel normal. The sex industry took away my sexuality…to where I was no longer able to be intimate with anyone, not even women, I became a robot, having sex, but not wanting it ever. I became asexual completely, Seeing a psychologist didnt help, i had completely lost my desire for human contact, all people revolted me. I would throw up and cry between clients , I would get high every night, and sleep in my car at odd ours of the night.
I wanted to die eventually and almost killed myself. If it werent for my husband i dont know where I would be. The thing is the damage is still there, and i cry sometimes durring sex from all the horrid experiences ive had. Now I have gone on long enough i dont know if anyone wil read this or if I will have to post it again at another time. Buyer beware, we are suffering while you are getting off. And trust me this IS the norm.
Roman
Comment by Roman ( yes I am female ) — June 16, 2006 @ 7:48 pm
Who the hell keeps deleting my posts??
Comment by Roman ( Ex-Stripper Please Read ) — June 16, 2006 @ 8:02 pm
No one. Certain words automatically send a comment to the moderation queue. It doesn’t get out until one of us [the moderators] logs on and sees it there.
N.O.
Comment by Not Ophelia — June 16, 2006 @ 9:59 pm
where/when do they get access? I’l answer for my own husband and the other people I know from extensive recovery/support work
for free internet prn
1) work computers, including during work hours but also before and after the workday, when the office is empty.
2) on internet-enabled cell phones, PDA’s and blackberries
3) univeristy computer lab (when he was a student)
4) wireless internet on a laptop on school grounds
for phsyical items (DVDs, magazines)
5) drop by a store on lunch hour, or after work (traffic again?!)
6) given by a friend.
and as for using then, most men stay up after their wives go to bed- it seems always “for video games” but as soon as she’s asleep, or their will wears out, the activity switches over. with my husband, if it wasn’t a video game, he may say he wasn’t tired and wanted to just surf, or chat with his buddies. but seriously, it seems all the hubands I know also have video game issues (tuning out of life and responiblities and pain in another form)
He also would do this at home when I was out on errands, and at work, in the bathroom.
again, having talked with many men and wives, these are the classic ways that come to mind.
Comment by LDS wife 1 — June 19, 2006 @ 10:03 pm
Roman,
I sincerely hope you will keep working towards healing and can someday get past all that pain and all the emotional and sexual baggage. Thank goodness you have a loving husband, but I hope you can get a good councelor too and someday know peace and freedom where there was pain. take care!
Comment by LDS wife 1 — June 19, 2006 @ 10:06 pm
It was suggested earlier that you might just want to get rid of the internet..has this been even tried..i would get the computer the hell out of the house. I know this doesnt solve the “work ” issue, but seriously, like i would keep a close eye on him…i mean either stay up with him or sleep in the office. I doubt it would be happening a s much. of course this is easier to to say because my husband doesnt have a problem , what do you think about the thinks i ve suggested?
Comment by Roman ( Ex-Stripper Please Read ) — June 20, 2006 @ 3:12 am
Also the generalization that men will go from one mistress to the next is wrong, or that they have to have the sexual outlet. My husband hates porn and is fully satisfied with me. He is also digusted by the thought of polygamy and says he would never want to do it. I guess my husband is a rare breed of man! I got lucky!
Comment by Roman ( Ex-Stripper ) — June 20, 2006 @ 5:36 am
Roman, these guys don’t delete posts on purpose. They’re pretty cool about censorship. I get regularly grossed out myself. Not today, but sometimes.
I’m curious, though, your last post was at 3:12 am. Unless you have two computers, your husband isn’t doing porn in the middle of the night, but he might be worried what you’re doing.
I’ve heard that thing, there are no victims in prostitution, both consenting adults. If you take your story, if it’s true, it would multiply the victims exponentially into generations. Perhaps you are a generation victimized. This isn’t something I haven’t had much to do with but I’m currently dealing with a terrible situation that may or may not have started with porn.
Really sad, all the way around.
Comment by annegb — June 20, 2006 @ 6:20 am
I have to get up for work (extra job) every morning at 3:30am and sometimes I’ll shoot off a quick response when no one is looking. =)
Comment by Seth R. — June 20, 2006 @ 10:46 am
Anne, i’m not 100% sure what you mean, I am a generation victimized?
-And yes I believe all the stripping and prostitution was evil, it almost drove me to my own self destruction.
Im a night owl my husband knows it, i show him these message boards all the time and read him my posts. Dont worry everything is out in the open.
Comment by Roman ( Ex-Stripper ) — June 21, 2006 @ 5:33 am
Roman,
while some wives find security in knowing the computer is out of the home, or in polciing his every behavior, the fact is that such actions quickly become unhealthy obsessions, and don’t solve nay of the true problems, because the only real change has to come from inside himself. It is not posisble to keep a person free from sin by watching them hard enough. Especially not a free adult.
Many wives find themselve sin need of counceling and 12-step help to overcome their own addictive cycles of “checking up” and trying to control others.
now, some boudnries are necesary. but they ought to be wisely amd prayerfully determined for each individual woman. and when a husband wants recovery help, let HIM initiate changes in computer access, filtering, attending groups or doing recovery work. such tools are fabulous when used willingly but rather useless if a person is internally determined to sneak around them.
In our begining recovery days, I was glad to implenment many “safety meassures” as requested by my husband. but had I done it in a parent-child, policing way, and before he was ready to change *for himself*, it would have been quite the oposite experience.
Comment by LDS wife 1 — June 22, 2006 @ 12:34 pm
almost all of the wives in my 12-step program have problems with co-dependence– largely due to the pornography problem.
how to access it? my husband is a student and used to take our laptop to school. he would access porn in between classes (empty classrooms, stairwells, bathrooms…) and after class when he told me he was staying on campus to work on homework.
He got into it when he was a teenager– his parents had cable and he would stay up late at night to watch movies. Also at his friends’ houses there were movies, magazines, etc.
Comment by cmac — June 22, 2006 @ 12:57 pm
I was making a little joke, Roman, about you being up late. I also am up late, but not on porn.
What I meant was that you are not the only victim of what you personally experienced. It cannot help but affect your children, your spouse, those around you. I literally meant the generations affected. And I wondered, with empathy, if you came from a family that experienced these types of dysfunctions and your past actions were a reflection of that.
I sort of had an epiphany about prostitution being a victimless crime, if both are consenting adults. It’s not. I’ve always been slightly swayed by that argument, but no longer because of your sharing.
Hope that clears it up.
Comment by annegb — June 23, 2006 @ 9:10 pm
I dont know if you will see this anne, because this subject is dead and burried. However It probably will effect some people around me, namely my husband, he is a sweet man but I have dealt with sexual dysfunction because of this…ei crying, nightmares etc.
My daughter is very young, so far it hasnt come up because she is still technicallly a baby. I think it will cause me to very over protective of her, in fact i have chosen to home school her for that reason in part. No my family was a good wholesome and non-dysfunctional. However I was molested repeatedly as a child by friends. And was introduced to some twisted sexual practices no child at the age of 10 should ever see.
I have acted out my corruption on others for most of my life, and they have done the same to me. I am much much healthier in my mind now…in fact sometimes i cant believe it all happened because it seems like a hollywood movie.
My life is very dull now, repetitive and largely predictible.
Just the way i like it. And I am blessed with a husband who was my best friend through it all. He rescued me and I am
alive today because of it.
I am a victim, i caused my own victims
I will try my best to protect my daughter
from the horror that is corrupt sexuality
Roman
Comment by Roman ( Ex-Stripper ) — June 29, 2006 @ 3:55 am
i am doing some research on how to confront my husband on
his porn. He s a priestholder. I need to know how to confront the issue. humbly and in a way of not attacking him.
Any suggestions?
Amanda
Comment by Amanda — July 17, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
Amanda, ECS reviewed an item not too long ago that might interest you.
Comment by J. Stapley — July 17, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
God bless you, Roman. Abuse happened in my family and we all suffer for it. I don’t concern myself with what happened to me, but I feel really badly for my little sisters. Long story.
I was over-protective and controlling with my kids. We all do the best we can. Things work out. You’ll be okay.
Comment by annegb — July 17, 2006 @ 8:33 pm
Regarding porn actresses - books that I’ve read estimate that anywhere from half to 80% of all porn actresses have a history of childhood sexual abuse. Father-daughter incest is particularly prevelant. I work as a therapist and can tell you can childhood sexual abuse is a very traumatic experience with lasting repercussions.
According the _The Courage to Heal_, which is one of the leading books on recovering from childhood sexual abuse, a woman cannot heal from childhood sexual abuse as long as she works in the sex industry.
I’m not a Mormon, but I am a Christian. I think that Christians of any stripe can’t endorse something that would impede the spiritual and emotional healing of another human being.
Comment by Kate — May 25, 2008 @ 8:35 pm
This as been a fascinating post for a number of reasons… Let me just start off saying that I was one of “those husbands”. I had developed a problem with pornography when I was a teen and battled with it for several years — sometimes I did GREAT and seemed free from its pull, and then out of nowhere I’d relapse. It was a very scary, dark, depressing and humiliating time in my life. Even after my wife and I were married I had an occasional relapse for the first two years of our marriage. I’m happy (and proud) to say that nearly 4 years have passed and I’m “clean and sober”… it hasn’t been easy, but I’ve done it and I’m doing it! So… here’s where the story flips. Last week I came home late from work. The kids were in bed and my wife was already in bed, sound asleep. After my “wind-down” ritual of changing into my PJs, brushing my teeth and going through the house to turn off the lights and lock the doors, I slid into bed next to my beautiful wife and flipped the TV on. I was shocked (to say the least), when the first image to appear on the screen was very graphic encounter between 2 women and one man… This was a pay-per-view porn movie! My wife had ordered a PORNO!?!? I quickly shut off the tv, my heart pounding, and feeling quite light-headed. It had been YEARS since I’d seen anything like that, and I couldn’t believe that my WIFE had been watching this! I had a hard time sleeping (no pun) that night, and have still not mentioned anything to my wife about having seen this… I just don’t know what to do! On the one hand I am shocked and disappointed… even hurt (I know that sounds so hypocritical after the first couple years of our marriage with ME sneaking a peek at porn) a little bit. On the other hand, I am wildly arroused! I feel so guilty for this! What do I DO!?!? Do I confront her about it? Is this “normal”? Do other mormon housewives “dabble” in the x-rated realm? I’m flabbergasted. PLEASE HELP!!!!
Comment by ShockedStupid — August 3, 2009 @ 10:21 am
I think it is useless to make someone as dkl of j johnson or johnsen understand what we are trying to say when we talk about how hurtful porn is to some woman or how degrading it is to a person b/c people or especially males dont understand. i myself found my self steem go down significantly being married to a porn user and would not ever in my agree with porn freaks, it makes me feel disgustied and i still cant get the images of my head of what he saw, i am not a bad looking woman but im still struggling to survive what his addiction cause on me i do not feel atractted anymore and i had never had that problem before meeting that sorry ass man who believe it or not i feel ruined our marriage and therefore my life!
Comment by alma — August 5, 2009 @ 10:50 pm
I recommend, every person read, “Transforming a Rape Culture” by Emilie Buchwald, Pamela R Fletcher, Martha Roth.
It is a book of essays, speeches, articles that make aware, and presents proposals for changing a society thea accepts and fosters sexual violence. one of the articles is about unmasking the pornography industry. The book is eye opening, informative, and causes one to be reflective. hopefully it will also enrage you, and help be a catalyst for change.
Comment by Nurse Day — August 6, 2009 @ 9:49 am
I’ve never posted before but have on occasion read through some of the postings on this board. I like this board because it is mostly from the views of women and as a man who doesn’t regularly hear from a diversity of women (only from my wife, sisters, and a few others) I find it refreshing and intriguing.
I wish to remark to posting #127 as it is a little different in that it was the woman who apparently was recently viewing the porn. I heard (and it fits my experience) that both men and woman can be visually stimulated by porn though men tend to be more visual oriented and women more feeling oriented (not always though). My wife likes visual stimulation some but likes to read stories even more. She doesn’t do it very much but on occasion has viewed porn. Her favorites tend to be ones with erotic stories not so much hardcord graphic visuals mostly just simply nudes. She doesn’t try to hide it - she sometimes even mentions it to me. We’ve talked about this openly. She recently enjoyed reading this book called The Reader that tells of an older woman who seduces a teenage boy. She thought it was real steamy and loved it so much she talked me into watching the movie with her. Well I told her I found nothing stimulating about it because of the age difference but I did find the plot very good. I don’t mind my wife reading erotica or viewing nude pictures. (Sometimes, it even turns me on). She is a great woman, very spiritual, nicest person I know, doesn’t seem obsessed with it, is a great mother to our kids and frankly, it revs her up which benefits me. Is it wrong, yes, but so are a lot of things and there are far worse things - porn can be a stepping stone though to some of those worse things. Over the years we’ve progressed in our communication to the point where we can talk about things that earlier on I would have been too embarrassed to discuss with anyone. Well, I’ve told her a while back when I first read some of this thread that it seemed as though some had quite strong feelings due to experiences with a spouse using pornography. This led to a discussion of people we know who have split up and others who haven’t because one or the other of the spouses had an affair. In the few cases we know of, sometimes pornography was the stepping stone. I told her that I believed it over-reactionary for a wife or husband to dump their spouse if he or she cheated on their relationship. I think marriage should be like how it is with the Lord, he doesn’t dump us when we screw up. He sticks with us. Only after repeated indescretions and a pattern of not repenting would I feel the relationship unsalvageable. This is all theoretical for me, however, as neither my wife nor I have not even gotten close to cheating on each other. So maybe I would feel differently if it actually happened. Where am I going with all of this? Well, I wish to say to the poster of comment #127 that while I can’t recommend what you should do in terms of confronting your wife and such since I don’t know you and the situation from only a few paragraphs. I can say though that when my wife and I have open conversations about things that bother one or the other, we sometimes might get defensive, sometimes might get ugly at first, but in the end it has always been best to get it out in the open. It allows us to move forward in our communcation and we get to know each other more deeply. I also find to my surprise often that what I thought was a mountain, after discussing it was really just a mole hill.
And by the way, in fairness, I’ve looked at porn before, too, at times before and during our marriage, also. I’ve on occasion seen a sexily dressed woman and lusted. I’ve confessed this to my wife on occasion. She is a very loving and accepting person. She seems to recognize that we’re all human. While we need to accept that we sometimes fail - even miserably, we should never stop trying to improve. That’s when things go downhill real fast.
Comment by agga — August 11, 2009 @ 9:50 pm
My husband suffers with porn addiction and it has weighted on our marriage for 5 years now. He would fall in the cyclical of regret self loathing and withdrawal from me. He would always begin steps to recovery but never see anything throw. I no longer think he truly care for me or at least not enough. He has lost his job and we have started a new business together. (Big mistake) one of our arguments he became physical and it got ugly I left and he begged for forgiveness and said all the right things. But then I asked Have you look at porn or masturbated since I’ve been gone (a hole of 2 days). He said yes that doesn’t sound like a man that wants me back… I truly believe because of his porn use he hit me. He has become a different person. Do I divorce him? Or give him the chance to get his eternal family back. By saying finish a twelve step program and you can come home. With two kids invalid it is not an easy decision.
Comment by MC — September 25, 2009 @ 1:28 pm
My wife and I have taken naked photos of ourselves and given them to each other while we are in different countries. Also when we chat on webcams we show our private parts to each other.
We are considering making our own videos as we do “our thing”, we are sure it will encourage us at times that we don’t feel like doing “our thing”.
I wonder if some of the couples here would try this? It is a good way to spice up your “special times”, and it may help the porn addicts to satisfy their need for such things, and at the same time, keeping it within their marriage, where such things can only serve to strengthen a marriage…. Just look at the romantic Song of Solomon, and even some Psalms of David… these kind of things are declarations of love and the desire we all feel at some time in our lives to be close to our spouses…
In this age we have digital cameras and what not… so use these to enhance your physical desires for your spouse.
There is nothing wrong with this kind of behaviour inside a marriage. If it brings my wife and I closer together, perhaps you other couples can give it a try?
Comment by DJR — October 21, 2009 @ 1:20 am
Yesterday in stake conference a speaker said that many male priesthood members were accessing porn and that this was sapping the strength of the power of the priesthood. He then at least acknowledged that there were women, particularly young women, who “might” be using porn as well but that it was more dangerous for the Church if priesthood holders were doing it.
Now I know there are a lot of issues here that could be dealth with but I would rather say that this is a talk that I do not expect, but would welcome it from any leader:
“Dear brothers and sisters. It has come to the attention of the bretheren the incidious epidemic of porn usage. This scurge has, in large part, been facilitated by the internet — a devise that can be used for good and evil but in this case has made it possible for anyone in the privacy of their own homes to access anything imaginable.
I would say that we have to battle this threat to the family. How, might we ask? Perhaps it is time for us to draw closer as couples — to rekindle feelings of love and physical intimacy between husband and wife — and not allow any influence from others to threaten that bond. We must avoid the attitude that physical intimacy is something that should only take place when both people find time in their busy schedules to feel the same way at the same time. We must avoid using headaches as an excuse, avoid putting entertainment ahead of bonding and strive to make time for each other — to try to capture those moments we had when first married that we could not live without each other’s company and intimacy.
Brothers and sisters, if we draw closer to one another there will be less tempation to involve other influences in our lives. I leave you with this testimony….”
Well, that is a talk I would like to hear rather than one that is jumping on people for finding substitution when the real thing might not be so available. Wonder how a Relief Society would react to such a talk though.
Comment by Mike — November 9, 2009 @ 2:44 am
I recently started going to group and so has my husband. Pornography has wrecked our marriage, broken my heart and trust in him. We’re working on it, hoping the pain will go away and the trust will be restored after a few years. For those of you who don’t think it’s a big deal, you’re fooling yourselves or don’t have LDS standards.
Pornography is evil. It is the biggest tool Satan has to destroy our families and our priesthood holders. This is what the true to the faith booklet has to say about it:
It is like unto adultery. It is to be avoided. It is to be fought against.
Comment by LDS Wife blogger — January 15, 2010 @ 9:17 am
Good luck to you and your husband, LDS Wife Blogger. (I know that sounds lame) I have a close family member and his spouse struggling with the same thing. It is so hard.
Comment by Stephanie — January 15, 2010 @ 10:50 am
Thanks Stephanie. I’m hoping for things to turn out well, only time will tell though.
Comment by LDS Wife blogger — January 16, 2010 @ 7:04 pm