Pain
So, being 7 months + pregnant with my first child, I have been both busier and tireder lately, both in preparation for and as a result of our impending arrival. My apologies for being so scarce–though for many of you, it was probably a welcome break. 
One of the things I’ve been up to is attending a 12 week Bradley natural childbirth course with DH in preparation for my planned unmedicated birth at a freestanding (not hospital-attached) birthing center with a CNM. As this is not yet the norm in Utah (or the U.S. for that matter), DH and I’ve had to do a lot of explaining to various people about why we’re doing things this way, and one of the most frequent conversations we have is approximately this: “You mean, you’re (she’s) NOT going to have an epidural??” “No… (begin descriptions of the benefits of unmedicated birth to both mother and child, usually to be heard politely, but not really listened to).” “Well, I don’t know about that. Will they at least have an epidural on hand, in case you (she) need(s) it?” And then, usually to DH, “I just don’t know if she’ll be able to handle the pain…”
Sigh….
I know childbirth will be no picnic. I know it won’t be fun. I know it will hurt. But I am confident that I can handle it (and at this point, I know I’m stubborn enough to refuse childbirth drugs just because I said I would). But I think the comments I’ve gotten that fear otherwise are just a manifestation of a larger phenomenon. It seems to me that our culture has an almost pathological fear of pain. We seriously have drugs for every little thing to every big thing, and while I am definitely a fan of whatever cocktail it was that let me sink into blissful oblivion during my appendicitis, I don’t think we need or even ought to be shielded from every little prick of pain. Even last week, while on vacation, I mentioned I had a slight headache and the first thing out of my SIL’s mouth (before I could explain I suspected it was a mild dehydration headache–pass me a bottle please) was, “I have some Excedrin in my bag–do you want some?” Besides the fact that Excedrin is not on the list of approved pregnancy medicines that my midwife gave me… why do we, as a society, jump so quickly to drugs? Why must we obliterate pain? Why is our life not ‘working’ or going as it should if we run into the slightest bump to our happiness?
Hollywood is partly to blame, I think, with its portrayals of life generally being happily ever after and if it’s not, move on to the next love interest or flash of money, beauty or fame delivery on life’s silver platter. But really, Hollywood merely perpetuates (and exacerbates) an existing societal outlook.
To be sure, pain is not fun. We recoil from it, whether physical, emotional, spiritual, or whatever. But it does not necessarily follow that experiencing pain is bad for us. Indeed, as LDS, we profess that pain or “opposition” is not only ubiquitous in mortal, fallen life, but is a necessary step in our progression. We even honor Mother Eve for choosing the more difficult and painful, but more valuable path. But we LDS also often recoil from digging into doctrinal or spiritual conflicts because we fear (sometimes too much) the pain that we know or suspect we’ll find there and I think it’s because we don’t think we’ll be able to handle it. To whatever degree–and, yes, it varies by individual–we’ve bought into this larger social fear of pain and its consequence of (often) just not either knowing how to handle pain or trusting that we CAN handle it and can learn from it and be healthier for it.
Someone on another thread differentiated between pain and suffering (or maybe it was the different kinds of suffering…) and I think that applies here–pain for the sake of pain has little redemptive or educational value. But experiencing pain, coping with pain, learning from pain–these can be good things. And if pain is a cost we pay in pursuit of a higher, positive goal, then why can we not see that some pain, certain pain, can be healthy pain?
Examples include, of course, the childbirth example I mentioned above–in a normal pregnancy and birth, foregoing the medication/epidurals/whathaveyou provides many physical benefits to both mom and baby, and makes both more alert and aware of each other after the birth, which only promotes bonding and the specialness of the experience. As my midwife pointed out, instead of directing emotional gushing toward the physician who took away your pain, you can direct it toward the newly arrived child (whose arrival has taken away your pain). Another example could be a spiritual issue that causes pain and questioning and crisis of faith. By confronting it, exploring it, coping with it, you are able to better heal than if you ignored it, hid it, or immediately jumped away from it. There couldn’t be real spiritual growth if you did.
No pain, no gain.
“For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink–Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.”
As I say, I’m not saying all pain is good, or ‘the more pain, the more gain’, or whatever. But can we not acknowledge that some pain is healthy pain and that we don’t need to be rescued from every sling, arrow, and mighty whirlwind that may come our way?
I had each of my four kids without an epidural. Ordinarily, I am a wuss. But I’m glad I had natural births. They were painful–good holy hell they were painful–but they were also empowering. I’m really grateful for the experience. I don’t know how to put it except that afterwards, I thought, “Man, I just gave birth. I am powerful! I can freaking do anything!”
I think it’s a personal decision, though. My labors were neither prolonged nor complicated. Two were ten hours, start to finish. The other two were significantly shorter (but very intense). Under worse circumstances, I imagine I might have made a different choice re pain meds. But yes, you tell people you didn’t have an epidural, and they get very defensive and ask if you’re crazy. I’ve also noticed that when you mention the word “midwife,” people automatically assume that you’re going to deliver in the woods with a crazy lady sacrificing a chicken over your belly. Very, very odd.
Good luck with your birth!
Comment by rebecca — June 14, 2006 @ 6:05 pm
Should I even comment here . . .
I had an unintended non-medicated birth [my first]. Unintended because, well, I planned to ask for an epidural when I needed one. It never got that bad.
OTOH, I know people who’ve had excrutiating, wish-I-could-die pain during childbirth. For days. So I ususally keep pretty quiet about my own experiences for many reasons, including the fact there is a sort of weird badge-of-virtuous motherhood associated w/ non-medicated births. There was really nothing virtuous about my non-medicated births. I just got lucky with the genetics.
But yes, recovery is faster w/o drugs. You are more present/mindful of the whole process [at least in my case where the pain wasn’t too bad.]
Bottom line is, I guess, until you’ve given birth you just never know. I’d keep my options open, just in case.
N.O.
Comment by not ophelia — June 14, 2006 @ 6:07 pm
Take note: FMH treats birth and adoption both in one day. Never let it be said that you will not find a balanced treatment of issues here!
Comment by Ana — June 14, 2006 @ 6:08 pm
I used CNMs for my first and last (of three) births. WAY more relaxing and fun than the Dr. birth. (Which he didn’t really participate in anyway.)
I am a big fan of drugs, just ask Ana. Unintentionally, I wasn’t able to have an epidural with my last one and deep down inside, I was so glad! Not at the time, of course, but man… like #1 said, “I can freaking do anything!!!” And although I probably shouldn’t, I personally feel like more of a woman for having done so.
Drugs/no drugs, whatever. Enjoy the baby when it’s over!
Comment by SalGal — June 14, 2006 @ 6:23 pm
I think that whatever choice a woman makes should be supported (within reason, of course, but to me ‘within reason’ includes everything from homebirths to planned c-sections). If you find something redemptive in the experience of pain, more power to ya, sister. I do hope that you are equally supportive of those who choose differently:
http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2777
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 14, 2006 @ 6:25 pm
I didn’t mean to sound like I look down on women who have pain meds during childbirth–nope. Definitely not. My appendicitis is the closest experience I’ve had yet to what I imagine the prolonged and excruciating pain that childbirth might be like (I’ll have to tell you later if I think it was worse) and I was happy to take the meds then. And I think the better-than-you valor, macho (macha?) mommy badge thing is wrong too.
I think NO’s and Rebecca’s comments nicely filled in the gap that I left in my post. I do think that in a _normal_ pregnancy and birth, that unmedicated is just healthier, but I know not everybody has the same experience or sees things the way I do. And I respect that.
But really, the childbirth example is just an example. Do you think that we as a society are too quick to avoid any and all pain (including, but definitely not limited to labor pains)? Do you think we take an awful lot of drugs when other coping methods would work as well or better? And, if so, what do you see as the underlying reasons for this? What would be an appropriate response or correction? If not, why not?
Comment by Artemis — June 14, 2006 @ 6:36 pm
No pain, no gain.
Well, no, not necessarily
Comment by obi-wan — June 14, 2006 @ 6:43 pm
My mother is a doula (basically, a family labor support). She is the queen of Mormon feminists. She is basically a patient advocate. For my first baby, I wanted an epidural. She dragged the nurse in to give me drugs. For my other two, my mom asked what I wanted to do. I wanted to see how tough I could be. She knows all the right places to push on the back, how and when to stand or walk. She justs cheer you on in your moment of triumph. THAT is what we should do for eachother. Not mock whether a woman wants and duelly deserves drugs, or whether she chooses to prove that she can be a pioneer woman. It is each woman’s moment of ultimate selflessness. I have started a new tradition with each woman that I visit just after she’s had a baby. I stand and applaud her. After all, she deserves it. Then on each birthday of the child, I call the mother and tell her that she’s doing a great job just by choosing to be a mother for another year.
Comment by Esther — June 14, 2006 @ 6:45 pm
And there’s this bit of wisdom, too.
Comment by obi-wan — June 14, 2006 @ 6:45 pm
I think part of the reason society as a whole avoids pain is because of marketing. After all, our economy exists to sell us stuff. So advertisers tell us that all pain is bad, and they have just the thing to fix it. We believe it; we buy the product. It takes a unique sort of person to swim upstream and choose the headache over the pills.
Comment by Melinda — June 14, 2006 @ 7:06 pm
obi-wan, RE: #7, yes, I agree with you. I tried to convey exactly that in the initial post. I invoked the saying going after the sense of, if we have zero pain in life, then we really have zero gain. Opposition in all things, if we didn’t know the bitter, we couldn’t know the sweet, etc. That doesn’t mean I’m saying that all pain is good. I’m just saying I think we need some. But we shouldn’t seek pain for the sake of pain, or to prove macho-ness, or when we know it’s detrimental to our well-being. In fact, I don’t think we should exactly “seek” pain at all. I just think we shouldn’t fear it and avoid it to the degree that we do.
I think I’m talking myself in circles here and am apparently still not able to effectively communicate what I mean.
Comment by Artemis — June 14, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
“Do you think that we as a society are too quick to avoid any and all pain (including, but definitely not limited to labor pains)?”
Well, if there were no costs to pain avoidance, then I cannot think of why we would hesitate to medicate (ha!). But there is always a cost to pain avoidance and people don’t seem to consider that. For example, if one of my kids has a fever, we generally do not medicate because the body may be using the fever to fight the illness. (I also think it makes the kid want to slow down, which is useful for healing.) However, if the fever is bad enough to interfere with sleep, then we medicate, because I think sleep is necessary to healing. That’s just a small example.
But in a world where pain avoidance was risk-free, I think one gets just a teeny-tiny bit too close to mocking the atonement if you choose to take on pain that you could avoid. (I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT WOMEN WHO BIRTH NATURALLY DO THIS! THIS IS ONLY IN A SITUATION WHERE THE PAIN HAD NO BENEFIT AT ALL WHICH IS NOT TRUE OF BIRTH.) He suffered so you wouldn’t have to.
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 14, 2006 @ 7:13 pm
No, Artemis, I think #11 was good: seeking pain is wrong, desiring pain is wrong, fearing pain is wrong, expecting to avoid all pain is wrong, thinking the products will end all pain is wrong.
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 14, 2006 @ 7:14 pm
Historically, a good birth meant one in which everyone survived. It is a testament to advances in health care that people talk about choosing particular childbirth experiences.
It may or may not turn out the way you want it to. Sometimes childbirth is a premonition of the one constant in motherhood: i.e. no matter how beautifully you plan it, you are no longer the one in charge: the baby is. Meaning, that you can plan beautifully, and things might not work out. the emergency c-section; the colicky baby; the willful child; the rebellious adolescent, and so on.
This is a tough lesson for independent moms.
Comment by Jenna — June 14, 2006 @ 7:18 pm
My mother always claimed I had a high pain tolerance. That said, there are definite reasons to medicate pain.
1. To function
2. To be your best self
There are many people with chronic pain. I admire them greatly. The people I know with chronic pain have done their best to manage that pain. Sometimes, modern (or non-traditional) medicine cannot take away that pain. Yes, they can become stronger people for their challenges, but that hasn’t stopped them from trying to end their challenge.
I took the Bradley Method class. Perhaps she was a poor teacher, but it was definitely a poor manual but my husband and I still laugh at our inside jokes about that class. Needless to say, I was not impressed.
The point is that sometimes pain medication can bring more positive experiences than no pain medication. I can tell you about my birth experiences, but I’ll just say that I believe medications are necessary for my births.
Labor and childbirth is so varied and so different for each woman. Isn’t it wonderful that we now have control over our birth experiences? My mother went to the hospital in 1967 and was “put under” without her knowledge or consent. She woke up disoriented and shocked that it was over. Isn’t it great that that doesn’t happen anymore? We can make our own decisions based on what is actually happening. We can have our spouses with us during this time.
We are pretty lucky.
I have to admit that my third birth experience was the best because the doctor did absolutely everything exactly my way, and since I knew exactly what to expect from my body (whereas he didn’t) I could manage my birth experience perfectly. (To be fair I should give him credit for his no-tearing birth preparation method. He’s a genius.)
Comment by jks — June 14, 2006 @ 7:30 pm
I remember right before I had my epidural, I was leaning over one of those hospital rolling tables, absolutely absorbed in more pain than I have ever experienced. I had to be induced (10 days overdue, and my placenta was no longer producing amniotic fluid), and the pitocin made the contractions unbelievable. It’s kinda weird, really, to be in that much pain–you almost have to go outside yourself to handle it. The anesthiologist came in, and I heard him say, “How’s she doing?” The nurse, who was leaning over me and stroking my arms, said “She’s ok. She’s breathing through them. She’s really doing fine.”
If I hadn’t been in so much pain, I would have laughed. The fact that I was completely silent meant, to her, that I was fine. I had never been so NOT fine in my life!
But I was grateful, in a way, to have felt that pain, because then I could know blissful relief when it came. If I had started with the epidural, the relief would not have been so sweet. Opposition in all things, indeed.
Does society in general avoid pain? I think largely yes, and that’s human nature. Why would we seek a painful situation if we could avoid it? But certainly feeling pain, feeling suffering, feeling cold, feeling hot, feeling uncomfortable, whatever, makes us appreciate the relief all the better. I dunno, maybe pain is necessary to teach us gratitude. Effective teacher, no doubt, but sometimes I wish there was an easier way!
Comment by Heather O — June 14, 2006 @ 7:34 pm
I think the immediate turning to drugs for childbirth is because several generations have passed since the old coping methods were used, those methods having been replaced by ’science’ during the years where man-made means better. We’ve been raised by women (or grandmothers) who were unconcious during their own birthing experiences, and so have no realistic idea of what it is like.
Being knocked-out is normally reserved for dangerous and life-threatening surgeries, so childbirth has a place in the cultural psyche right up there with brain, open-heart, and triple bypass surgeries. Combine that with the general knowledge that complications during pregnancy used to be a common cause of death before medical interventions were widely available. So people have this chimera of an idea that childbirth is accompanied by a life-ending mind-numbing pain that cannot ever be recovered from.
My grandma in-law (?) was terrified for me when I had my baby and told me that I should have a c-section under general anesthesia because the other way is “just too painful.”
Comment by Starfoxy — June 14, 2006 @ 7:35 pm
I was once told that if you experience pain during childbirth you will love your child more. I don’t buy it. Think of all the illogical places you could go with that one, especially in regards to adoption.
So I am a little cautious of 1)dismissing those who opt out of the pain as misguided [i.e. too enamored of science, not enamored enough of the natural experience] 2)ennobling the choice to go at it natural. I mean, if that is what you want to do, more power to you, sister. But it doesn’t make you a better mother or a better person.
I’m not saying that people here are suggesting this. However, whenever natural childbirth gets discussed, those who are its advocates tend to dismiss the opinions of the rest.
Again, childbirth can be seen of as similar to motherhood in that there are many ways to do it well. Not just one.
Comment by Jenna — June 14, 2006 @ 8:16 pm
For me, the dread and loss of control is often the worst. My dentist knows that I do pretty well, if I know ahead of time what he’s going to do, and how long it will take. For me, childbirth was much easier because I had gone to childbirth classes, and knew about what to expect, than it would have been if I hadn’t been well-informed. For me, while childbirth was painful, it wasn’t all that bad. I’m sure that it is more painful for some people, but I think that it’s unfortunate that the memorable childbirth stories are the ones that involved pain and trauma. I think that leads us to overmedicate, to get back to your question. For me, I’d much rather do child birth again, than major dental work, or boob surgery, etc, even with pain meds for those.
Comment by pjj — June 14, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
I was a determined all natural granola when I had Téa in 1977…but it ended up being a long, horrible, protracted labor. I probably did some major damage to myself for long term (at least some of the female issues I had later were attributed to hard labor issues.)
By the time I had Heather in 1980 I was prepared for the worst, but it was a very short, very easy labor and birth. I think it’s a crapshoot which one you end up with, for the most part. Your odds are pretty good, Artemis, and you seem to have a good attitude.
I live with daily strong pain (I have a condition that causes severe edema of the legs/feet, my left calf is 19″ around, and I can’t wear shoes, only slippers.) Everyone asks me why I don’t take pain meds…but since they would have to be a daily thing, and I’m not willing to be zonked on a regular basis, I have learned to live with the pain. I do have to alter my activities a bit, can’t exercise without crying and so I gain weight because I’m a slug.
But the pain is mine to deal with, and I just have to do it. The problem is that I find myself being judgmental with the ‘If I can do it, why can’t you?’ mindset, and I have to watch for that and understand that not everyone has the strengths or skills that I have…there are plenty of things others do much better than I do.
I go through bouts of ‘don’t mess with it, take tylenol for the headache and get it over with’ which alternate with ‘tough it out, don’t give in, and it will go away in its own time.’ I’m not consistent with these approaches. But I do reach for the water bottle first because I do allow myself to get dehydrated (don’t want to add more fluids to the legs!)
I guess I have a high tolerance for pain. I’m pretty stubborn that it not control me, but I don’t always win.
Good luck to you on your birthing choices, I hope everything comes out wonderfully! = )
Comment by Darlene — June 14, 2006 @ 8:31 pm
Pain is just so subjective. Everyone has different pain tolerance levels. People have different sensitivities in different parts of their body. Some people fly right through the pain of childbirth. They give birth and even if you felt tremendous pain and fought your way through it, you still have no way of knowing if you felt the same level of pain as another person. Even if you felt great pain, you aren’t qualified to judge what level of pain someone else is feeling (not that anyone was, just thinking random thoughts).
I’ve had several kidney stones and that’s painful, but they were NOTHING compared to the agony I went through when I had my wisdom teeth out a few years ago. Holy crap, I wanted to die. Worse than the kidney stones, worse than c-sections, worse than anything I’ve felt before or since, and it went on for days. Now my husband sailed right through it when he had his wisdom teeth out - no pain, nothing. Does that mean I was a wimp or my pain wasn’t real? Nope. Just means we had different experiences. My sister-in-law had a c-section and went through agony post-op, was in bed for weeks and weeks. After mine, I was up and around as soon as they would let me up. Does that mean SHE was a wimp or her pain wasn’t real? No. Since our procedures were simliar, can I compare my experience or motivations to hers and make a judgment about what is better? It would be silly to do that.
Childbirth isn’t even painful for some - like my mom who popped each of her children out in about an hour, with almost no pain at all (her description). She never had more than a tylenol and was the type that was up and around a few hours later, vacuuming the living room or whatever. But for others it’s an incredibly long, incredibly agonizing experience. No matter what your own experience was, you can’t really know what kind of pain someone else is experiencing even if the situations appear similar on the surface, so to judge them based on whether or not YOU were able to endure pain is sort of silly (not that you were doing that).
I had three (medically necessary) c-sections and three spinals and no pain at all, even post-op, so obviously I’m not really qualified to make judgements about what women do when going through vaginal child birth, but I’ve never really understood the mindset of going through incredibly horrendous pain when there is no real reason to do it, but hey, to each their own. Whatever makes you feel good about your birthing experience (as long as it’s safe for you and baby of course) is a good thing. I personally don’t think there is redemptive power in physical pain itself. I think that’s a very granola idea.
If someone had suggested to me that I remain medication free in order to experience the reality of the pain after I had my wisdom teeth out, I would have gone for my husband’s rifle.
Comment by Sue — June 14, 2006 @ 8:41 pm
My wife, the great LF, has commented before that since God helped inspire the great technology, we should use it (or something to that effect, I’m paraphrasing).
She also sagely observes that if she had natural, unmedicated childbirths, both she and our first child would have died (and so there wouldn’t have been a second or third, either). So, in her case, she feels extremely close and bonded to all of our children and thankful for being alive.
And when someone tells her of the great sacrifices of pioneer women, she reminds them of her ancestors who joined the Church and crossed the plains to Utah transporting their family with a pinto and a wagon — of course, in her story, it’s her convert parents, a station wagon and a Ford Pinto. In 1972.
Comment by queuno — June 14, 2006 @ 8:54 pm
We don’t become stronger because we are constantly in pain, we become stronger (or weaker) based on what we turn to overcome the pain.
Opposition tests what we will do when we are faced with pain, disappointment, and hardship. I don’t think withstanding pain until tides turn from no effort of our own is a gospel principle, nor do I think I will necessarily make us stronger. When faced with pain, everyone tries to suppress it, be it with drugs, with the justification that enduring it will make one stronger, or with some other outlet. The true test is in how we suppress our pain, not if we do. When a person is unhappy, enduring the unhappiness provides no gain – but overcoming the unhappiness will. Avoiding pain isn’t necessarily a bad thing, if the outlet is healthy, productive or uplifting. It is when avoiding pain is destructive, or even simply unconstructive that the avoidance of it is a bad thing.
Comment by Meg — June 14, 2006 @ 10:30 pm
Artemis,
I think it’s wonderful there are lots of different options, because there are so many different situations, from woman to woman and from birth to birth. We all probably know those who would be dead or w/o a child without the blessings of medicine. We also know those who have had wonderful natural experiences (I have a homebirther in my family who swears by that. I would no more birth outside a hospital than shoot myself in the head). To swing to one side or the other and say “this is the ONLY way” is simply wrong. The trick is balance. I think medicine (and Pres. Hinckley has said as much) is a huge blessing from God. BUT (and Pres. Packer has said as much) we shouldn’t turn to medication for every little thing. I think it’s important to employ our spiritual decision-making skills and use the guidance of the Spirit to figure out where that balance lies in each situation. Sometimes I think we are supposed to tough things out; sometimes God provides a way for relief. Always, He wants us to find the Atonement’s power. That’s all a tricky balancing act, indeed.
I think the concept you are discussing is interesting. I think our society wants us to avoid pain like the plague, but I don’t think living with it stoically is always the answer, either. I think balance is the answer.
I have chronic health issues. Pain is part of my life. Sometimes I medicate, sometimes I don’t. I live with a lot of it. I tire of doctors only wanting to mask what’s wrong (when what I want is to KNOW what is wrong (we still don’t have those answers)) by just getting rid of the pain.
There are no absolutes in this issue, or at least there shouldn’t be. To live completely without pain relief is foolish. To always avoid pain is as well. And there is no one-size-fits-all answer for everyone. (This issue of childbirth is a perfect example, although probably an example that is perhaps a touch too charged (which is probably why you have felt a little misunderstood, Artemis — because childbirth brings out the deeply held feelings and experiences that are so personal and so intense); I’ll use it anyway.
P.S. Best wishes to you, Artemis. I hope you have the birth experience you hope for. But stay open to the Spirit. The most important thing is that you and baby are healthy and well. It really is a miracle regardless of the method.
Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — June 14, 2006 @ 11:45 pm
p.s. As a clarification: “I would no more birth outside a hospital than shoot myself in the head” because I am a cautious person by nature, and want all the backups in case something goes wrong (cuz I’ve known too many people for whom it has). But my family member who is passionate about homebirth has the personality to take things as they come, not to try to anticipate all that could come (which is what I do). That is why I am glad there are options for the both of us.
(My body is also very different in terms of labor, etc.) Different strokes for different folks….
Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — June 14, 2006 @ 11:58 pm
I have always thought of myself as the biggest wuss in the world until I was told by a physical therapist that I had a very high pain tolerance. So I agree that it is all in what kind of pain and where. My terror comes when someone is doing something to me…I can handle just about anything if it is coming from my own body and not being induced. I had a dentist as a kid who didnt’ give us novacaine so I am still battling that. It comes and goes. I actually smacked my new dentist when he hurt me…my arm just flew up. I let them give me the happy gas stuff now and it really helps. I think the problem with childbirth is our big mouths. There is something about women that makes us want to blab about the worst parts of childbirth. I had heard so much that I was so terrified that I was relieved when I was told I had to have a C-section. That was one unpleasant recovery but if I’m hurting in my own room I’m fine with it. My suggestion is to tell women to SHUT UP when they start up the horror stories around women who have never birthed. (I saw this done once at a baby shower by an older women who just shushed the offender)
Comment by Juliann — June 15, 2006 @ 12:38 am
I just love the natural childbirth vs. medicated childbirth discussions. They are so much fun! I love to just shake my head and roll my eyes at what people say. No one is posting that I should go to the dentist and turn down the numbing to get my teeth fixed. Yet childbirth pain is glorified.
I’m so grateful for my mother who had 3 natural (and 3 medicated) and she said the labor was short and the pain was bad, but she never acted like it was the greatest accomplishment of her life.
But I am quite grateful to all the wacko natural childbirth people of the past 30 years who made changes in the system and made it possible for me to have choices.
Comment by jks — June 15, 2006 @ 12:42 am
Bradley method rocks! It’s like the She ra approach-it’s all about “going into the pain” instead of distracting yourself with focusing on some focal point and what have you. Mind you, I have a healthy set of hips though, so my going into the pain isn’t the same some little gal with 32″ hips…..
YES! The point of this thread is onto something-we do tend to basically shut down pain in ways that I don’t think is helpful(and this has nothing to do with child birth mind, I’m talking about in general).
The problem with shutting down any sort of pain for instance is that alot of times, the pain is a signal to us. If we keep dulling the signals, we may miss out on what the signal is trying to tell us.
Part of this comes from the fact that we as a culture don’t really stress being intuned with our bodies. We just like a quick fix-it deal so we can be off running.
This isn’t about judging people cause we all are coming at things differently with different stories, but I do think our culture tends to simply treat things in a compartmentalized manner instead of in a more whole, bigger picture way , sorta how Eastern medicine does.
Comment by Karina — June 15, 2006 @ 1:16 am
Hello, Eastern medicine. Next time, if there be one, I’m checking into getting acupuncture during labor. I’ve heard a few needles can really help things. I’m also going to look back into the Medicine Woman’s bag, because, lo and behold, I have discovered that prior to our mechanized Western birth system, there were organic ways to cope with the pain.
Good for you for doing Bradley, Artemis. I did Bradley. Sorry, not cheering (part of me doesn’t like to think of myself like a horse or cow in labor. Don’t know why.) I can see why, theoretically, it’s important to give women power over their bodies, and good old dr. bradley gave that authority back to women. In my experience, however, guys re-discovering women’s wisdom sometimes get things a litte wrong, and you can end up feeling man-handled or glad-handed through labor. I didn’t like the idea of having my own “coach” because sports is hardly relevant during labor. That was my experience, anyway, but I’m sort of fussy. Personally, I would rather not have any fellas in the room (GASP I know this isn’t cool), and have a gathering of women who would annoint and lay their hands on me. If Mormons reinstated the RS in this manner, as being an equal complement to the Priesthood, and women were dispatched to assist with labor, I’d sign up and jump in the baptismal water faster than you could scream for an epidural.
Bradley, however, calls us to really accept the pain, and doesn’t give us tricks to avoid it. This is cool, theoretically.
But then, I had that labor pain where I desperately wanted out of my body, and I realized that next time, I’m gonna say spells or smoke peyote or somthin’ I know my “coach” husband was a little overwhelmed, especially when I told him to shut up. I will stick with the homebirth or birth center (yep, one Certified Wacko Natural Chilbirth person here). I also did an underwater birth, which probably took off just enough edge, and saved both of our lives. (Note: In no way should anyone be scared by my story. I experience, according to an anestheseologist, way more pain than a normal person. I don’t know how he knew this, or measured this, but I’m one of those people who could definitely use some distraction.)
As for our cultural perception of pain in general, I think we’re pretty screwed up about our bodies, given our judeo-christian paradigm which tends to mortify the body. Pain, like sexual desire, is one of those things which the body uses to say “hey there. You’re physical.” I think, in our mortification of the body, pain and sex become taboo, and we want to codify and dull their presence.
Hello, women’s wisdom and Eastern Medicine, again, which sees the living system for what it is, a garden of sorts. I can go to my acupuncturist, tell her that “I’m gassy, my nose is dry, and I have a headache on the right side of my head.” This will make sense to her, and she will treat me for excess Wind in the spleen or something. Not only does the physical treatment alleviate pain, but all sorts of mental and emotional things clear up as well. It’s a garden, baby, and pain is a message. So praise the Lord, and pass the black cohosh. (Note: in no way do I trivialize those with chronic conditions of pain. I’m speaking to cultural conditions which are way general, and not mean to specifically deride anyone’s personal experience).
Comment by pele — June 15, 2006 @ 1:57 am
.
This is a weird comment to me. I have had one baby with and one without an epidural, and I gotta say that they were both the same to me in the emotional aftermath. I never felt closer to the doctor than I did the baby, The doctor is an afterthought, a non-entity at that point. I never thanked him or felt anything toward him immeadiatly after my boys birth. It was all about me and my baby. Even my husband at that point drifted into the background of my conscience. All that mattered was me and my baby, and no epidural could change that.
Comment by kristi — June 15, 2006 @ 8:30 am
I am glad I read this discussion. I am 6months pregnant, and I have no idea yet what I want to do. I just moved from NYC back to Utah, so have had to switch doctors mid-pregnancy. In NY I was seeing on OB/GYN, and here I will see a mid-wife. She is a good family friend, and she works with a DR in case something goes wrong. My DR in NYC was very happy to hear I was going to a midwife, because she advocates for midwife births. Anyway, I have been told medicine will be there if I need it. I do not like pain. I am a wimp. However, I also rarely break down and take a tylenol when I have a headache. I hear so much horror about child birth that I sometimes think I will not get through it, but it is a little late now! So I am not sure yet what I want to do. I admire those who can go with out medicine, but I also admire those who can admit that medicine is completely neccesary. Mostly, I am happy to hear those who say both decisions are fine, and one does not make you a better person than another.
Comment by Maren — June 15, 2006 @ 8:37 am
We did it just six weeks ago
I bet you’re taking from the same bradley teacher I did– Rebecca? If you’re in my part of Utah that is.
Don’t worry about what people say– do what you know is best. I personally can attest that natural was a better experience– I have experienced both.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
Comment by sare — June 15, 2006 @ 9:35 am
I have 4 kids. 1 natural, one with an epidural, and 2 via c section. My mom had 5 kids naturally as well.
My wife says the natural one was easiest and the fastest recovery.
One thing to note is that sometimes nature and current medical conditions conspire against the best laid plans of the pregnant mom and can end with a birth type that was not anticipated.
From #2 NO: “Bottom line is, I guess, until you’ve given birth you just never know. I’d keep my options open, just in case.”
This is probably the reality. I would approach this with an open mind hoping to be able to use your preffered birth method but open to medically required modifications as needed. USUALLY (80%?) moms can use their preferred method. But do not try and force a method against competent medical advice. I had a friend lose a baby this way and another life-flighted from her home to the nearest hospital.
Comment by bbell — June 15, 2006 @ 9:47 am
I did Bradley with all four of my births! It is the BEST natural childbirth method. My second child was born in a Birth Center and it was by far my easiest delivery, although he was 11 pounds.
One of the the things I enjoyed most about Bradley was that it taught you how to be in control of your birth environment.
I wish you the best with your impending delivery.
Comment by Lianne — June 15, 2006 @ 9:57 am
Jumping in for a quick second (then back to work!)–
Sare–we’re taking the class from Adrianna, but I know there are a few good instructors around. Adrianna seems to incorporate flavors of a few different approaches–mainly Bradley, but with other stuff mixed in. She’s set up our pain management exercises to help us figure out for ourselves how we best deal with it–for example, the visualization and focusing you do may work better if it distracts you from the pain or it may work better if it centers you to it. It’s been fascinating. (I could do a whole post on what I love about my class, but… enh… don’t think I should torture y’all with that.
And, for the record, our birth plan includes contingency plans–if I develop a high risk condition in the next few weeks, we’ll move the birthplace to a hospital. If it becomes apparent that I’ll need an emergency c-section, we’ll transfer to a hospital. In any case, my midwife will come along to midwife and doula me as much as circumstances allow. It’s not that we’re averse to modern medicine, we’re just averse to using it when it’s (to us) not needed. All the comments about varying pain tolerances are taken and agreed with, too. I was really lumping all the extenuating circumstances into my comment about “normal” childbirth. If you don’t have such-or-such condition, if you don’t have risk factors, etc., THEN my philosophy applies (but I do not insist that you apply it). Which is what Bradley teaches anyway–avoid routine and/or unneccessary intervention to actually AVOID complications.
Congrats Maren! Best of luck to you. I agree with whoever commented that the most important thing is being informed about what’s going to happen, what could happen, and the pros and cons of all the interventions or lack thereof are. That way YOU stay in control, you make the choices. If you just go to the hospital with no prior education, the doctors and staff will essentially make the decisions for you and THAT is the main problem I have with mainstream labor. You give up control because you don’t know the alternatives or effects, or (sometimes) that there are alternatives. I highly recommend some sort of birth class–knowing what I’m getting into has really helped feel prepared to handle labor when it comes. Obviously Bradley is my top pick, but find something that appeals to you.
I like how people are exploring the pain issue (vs. the childbirth issue)–most everything seems to fit together. I guess pain is a rather vague sort of topic–defining it and dealing with it are both very subjective. But it’s interesting to see this collage of it emerging.
Comment by Artemis — June 15, 2006 @ 10:01 am
Artemis,
yu’re right, there’s something intersting about society where we have adapted to not accepting any painn now that we don’t need to. I wonder what the experiecne is like in remote areas whithout the luxery o fthis adjustment.. is pain felt diferently then?
see, i have nothing real to add to that topic
but I did bradley classes, and an unmedicated birth, and chose the epidural the second time, and I have fewer regrets for the 2nd. Oh, and I left the birht center faster after the epidual- I felt awesome and energetic, took a rest and was home just 12 hours after the birth- with the first, it took about a day and I was weak from hemoraging and exaustion.
But I’m all for midwives. even with hospitals and epidurals, I insist on having midwives. But I can’t stand birth story competitions- there is no way to fail childbirth. I don’t know why women feel the need to tear apart others’ choices.
Comment by cchrissyy — June 15, 2006 @ 10:12 am
I think you raise some great issues, Artemis. I, for one, think that when I eventually get to the point in my life where I’m having children, I will choose to go the epidural route. Physical pain is a huge trigger for my depression (i.e. if I’m in pain, my body goes haywire and I completely lose it emotionally).
I do find myself asking the questions you ask on a broader, level, however. Depression is emotional pain, and while I acknowledge that I do much better on medication than off, I’ve had to learn how to endure and deal with emotional pain in order to improve my emotional health (I can’t just medicate it away, etc).
Accepting and dealing with pain is a necessary part of life, but as other commenters have pointed out, there are times when pain is unnecessary, avoidable, something to be treated, etc. I don’t know where to draw the line–I guess part of life is figuring out how to discern these kinds of things!
Comment by S — June 15, 2006 @ 10:50 am
Artemis — i’m feeling guilty about ranking on Bradley, so I’ll jump in and second your observations. (Sounds like you have a more well-rounded teacher than I did. Mine actually taught us that Bradley people don’t scream during labor pain, because they’re so relaxed. I actually felt a little betrayed when that didn’t happen for me).
The best thing I got from Bradley was the idea that my body knew how to grow and birth a baby. And, there is thankfully enough backup in case something does go wrong.
So, gals on the fence, Bradley’s great, & as far as I know, it’s the only alternative, and a step in the right direction.
Comment by pele — June 15, 2006 @ 10:51 am
S — I just read your post and I feel your pain. Really. My childbirth pain threw me into a tailspin which lasted for…oh…I don’t want to say. For the longest time, I thought I had to live with it, and look at all the deep issues I was uncovering.
Then, I found a good acupuncturist. Chinese medicine believes that emotional pain is a symptom of other imbalances. Imbalances come about due to a lot of things, physical trauma being one. I finally came to the conclusion that my emotional pain was part spiritual emergency, and part physical imbalance. This realization took that feeling of resonsibility off my shoulders. Yes, there were external issues going on, but acupuncture gave me back my protective power, so I can deal with the pain of life with a much clearer head.
Emotional pain and depression is one of those things I’ve never been thankful for. If you can get relief, do. Drugs are ok, I’m still on mine — but do, if you can, go see the acupuncturist.
Comment by pele — June 15, 2006 @ 11:04 am
Let me rememphasize that while I loved the Bradley method, I think there are ssooo many factors to consider when choosing your labor method. FOr instance, I didn’t do Bradley with my second kid, because the doctor and hospital I was stuck going to(blasted HMOS) were VERY unsupportive of such an approach,and therefore the experience would have been very negative I think.
When considering a Bradley approach, I think you need a good deal of preparation(physical/mental), BUT also you need the whole team(doctor, hospital, nurses,etc) on board with you to make it an approach for you. One of the BIGGEST helpers with my bradley approach was that I labored in teh hospital spa and had a midwife/doctor team that rocked! And seriously, if my hips were smaller, I think I wouldn’t have been as ecstatic with the whole experience ~!
Pele-you know, I had a pretty mellow Bradley instructor, and I’m glad cause I couldn’t do the whole amazonian way. Like for instance, pain free birth? YEah right, it hurt like heck still! But what I valued about the approach I was given by this instructor AND reading Dr. Sears’ book Childbirth(I think that’s the name), is that I learned to understand what the “pain” was telling me-I realized what was happening and was able to respond appropriately. That was very empowering for me personally.
But yeah, th coach deal? Holy crap, I basically told my husband to shut and just be ready to go get me a burger and fries the minute the baby was born! He got demoted from coach to food-getter basically, so we weren’t into the coach deal either….
Comment by Karina — June 15, 2006 @ 12:01 pm
I think maybe since I live in Northern California, land of granola, I get a little different perspective on the childbirth/pain thing; most of the people I know aim for a natural birth and are unhappy when they have to get an epidural or a c-section. I knew one woman who labored for a week, refusing to have a c-section because ‘it would be the end of the world.’ (Having survived childbirth by means of a c-section, I could think of worse things, myself.)
Anyway, I wish we argued less and supported each other more. There’s so much guilt associated with having a ‘correct’ birth! So many of us feel that we’ve failed somehow when we have to have a c-section, and that is so wrong. Or others tell us we’re crazy for trying to give birth without drugs–that’s wrong too.
Artemis, I hope you have the birth you want. But your body might not cooperate with your vision, so don’t feel bad if you wind up going a different way.
Comment by dangermom — June 15, 2006 @ 12:40 pm
Responding to the original post,
You can tell your tormentors that there’s really no point in having an epidural on hand “just in case.” It takes a while for the thing to kick-in and you’d likely have had your baby by the time it does any good.
My wife had epidurals for both kids. Worked for us. We’re not really big on symbolic gestures and my wife tends to take a practical, no-nonsense approach to most things. Why be in pain if you don’t have to? Simple.
Comment by Seth R. — June 15, 2006 @ 2:04 pm
I don’t think that wanting to avoid medication is a symbolic gesture for most women who have that goal wrt childbirth. I’ve had epidurals with both my kids but I still really want to experience a medication-free birth. There are risks and side effects with any meds you take. I also want the experience of actually feeling my child be born which I haven’t had yet. I guess that’s weird to some people.
jks (#15)–one area where women are losing their right to choose how their babies are born in the US is VBAC. There is a lot of talk about patient choice c/sections these days and if people want to do that *and* are truly fully informed then that’s ok by me but a big side effect of the rising c/section rate in this country is that people who want to give birth vaginally after a c/section are being denied that in many hospitals across the country. Even though I’ve had one VBAC, there are places where the hospitals would require me to have a c/section with a future birth since I’ve had a c/section as well. We are looking into moving closer to our parents sometime in the next year but will have to consider and research hospital birth policies or be open to having homebirths for our future children, something dh and I are both not comfortable with at this point.
Comment by Vicki — June 15, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
Well, not weird to me really. It’s all above my head in any case. But it doesn’t resonate with us, that’s all.
As far as what drug-free childbirth feels like … my wife here says “it hurts.”
So there you are.
(although I suspect you knew that already …)
Comment by Seth R. — June 15, 2006 @ 4:34 pm
Sorry to post again, but my wife says I should throw in my dad’s take on this.
He delivered our first daughter and has been doing OBGYN work since the 1970s (just quit doing it recently).
He is a decisive vote YES on having an epidural. He says it makes it vastly easier for him to do his job without having a distressed woman screaming and swearing at him (this is in Utah too, FYI). Not to mention the freaked-out husband.
I’ll also let you know that the nursing staff at the hospital routinely roll their eyes every time they get a woman who wants to “go-natural.” Of course, they do it out of eyesight of the patients…
So the medical professionals will like you if you “just take the stupid epidural!” Not that you should give-in to peer pressure or anything, but it might matter to some of you. =)
Comment by Seth R. — June 15, 2006 @ 4:46 pm
Yah, but Seth, is it more important to make things easier for the doc or for the mother to have the choice of avoiding the risks (both for herself & her child) that come with the epidural or other meds? The dr. convenience argument really falls flat with me. And the fact that the nursing staff routinely rolls their eyes at such requests just makes me angry–it’s uneducated, for one, despite all their training, and disrespectful of the laboring woman and her wishes. Even if out of sight. I’d hate to be working with that crew.
Meanwhile, one of the main points of methods like Bradley is that the husband being just as informed as the wife about what is happening, as well as the pros & cons of drugs and interventions, etc., AND being the primary support person for the woman giving birth. With that kind of training and education (and it doesn’t have to be super extensive, just enough), you likely won’t have a freaked-out husband. And the woman will be more in pain than “distressed”, which I read to mean panicked or freaked-out as well–but she will have other ways of coping with the pain while still achieving her goal of unmedicated birth. In other words, if ye are prepared, ye shall not fear (even though you may hurt like hell).
Comment by Artemis — June 15, 2006 @ 4:56 pm
It also makes it easier on the current Church establishment if I just get the !@# epidural to my spirit and passion, so I don’t get distressed when I see how they’re trying to numb me from who I am….
Comment by pele — June 15, 2006 @ 5:04 pm
Artemis, I’m a little concerned about the idealized vision of Bradley birth you present. I think I told this story in the post that I linked to, but just in case:
I was at a party with a Bradley educator. She was describing having her 4th (5th? something like that) baby at home. She said that the pain was so bad that she was convinced she was literally going to die. Now, if someone who (1) teaches that method and (2) has birthed several times before felt that the pain was that bad, it leads me to believe that your description may be a little rosy–at least for some cases.
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 15, 2006 @ 5:04 pm
I’ve been lurking on this for a while, and guess I’ll throw in my two cents… I am really glad (and releived) to see so many people being suportive of medicated and un-medicated births. It seems like this is such a polarizing and divissive issue much of the time. Get the baby out with mom and baby healthy, it’s a good birth.
With my first baby, I worried endlessly about this, and was determined to have a natural, unmedicated birth, and listened to all the rhetoric form the “natural” side (not at all saying rhetoric isn’t coming from both sides- but the natural was the side I was listening to at the time). I wrote a detailed birth plan, took the classes, read the books, all the things you do. And then the baby had other ideas. First rule of parenting- be flexible!! You are no longer in control!!
Having now done it both ways, and unmedicated only just 7 weeks ago, (fresh in my memory) there really isn’t a right or wrong way. Each of my children entered the world differently, even though they all came out the same body. And I have to second what #30 said- never, medicated or natural, did my attention focus on the doctor- that’s just weird! What did change was my awareness of others AT ALL when having a baby natural. It is so intense, my vision narrowed to the point where it was just me- but with the epi with other children, I was aware of my husband and mother and happy they were there.
Comment by tracy m — June 15, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
By the way, I also learned with subsequent babies, that no matter where I had them, I was in charge of what happened to my body and what (and whom) went on in my room.
And by the way, congratulation on your baby Atremis- You will be head over heels in love no matter how s(he) enters the world!
Comment by tracy m — June 15, 2006 @ 5:13 pm
I don’t believe I’m being overly rosy or evangelical about the way I’ve decided to do this. I’ve had to bascially give a back-tracked explanation of my approach to this because the point of the post was not supposed to be about Bradley or childbirth, so I didn’t bother giving a complete explication of why I’m doing what I’m doing and how that affects/doesn’t affect how I look at other approaches or choices. The post was supposed to be about the question of whether we are too shy or afraid of pain in general. But I feel what I’ve subsequently filled in (because that’s what everybody’s focused on) is pretty balanced and open-minded. Sure, I have my preferred opinion, but I respect the others. I accept that my body and others’ bodies may need or want more than the au natural approach and I am NOT condemning those who choose other options.
I’m sorry that I sound so defensive about this–I thought I’d explained my balanced approach pretty well (I even said I’d get a c-section if I needed one–I’m flexible dammit!
), but… apparently not. Ah well.
Comment by Artemis — June 15, 2006 @ 5:47 pm
Actually Artemis, it does matter at least a little, what the doctor prefers. I think the risks of a doctor not being able to run the pregnancy smoothly may be even greater than the risks of modern medication to the baby.
But I’m not disagreeing with you.
Don’t know why you’re getting so mad about the behavior of the nursing staff though.
Anyone who has worked at a McDonalds knows that the staff talks about the customers. They also know that the staff tend to see things from their own perspective. This is pure human nature.
Of course the staff is going to make fun of that patient who yelled at the on-duty nurse about the lack of good channels of TV.
Of course they are going to have the goal of making their own system work as smoothly, quickly, and problem free as possible.
Of course they are going to commiserate about how difficult it was to get that needle into that last expecting mother because she was in so much pain she wouldn’t hold still long enough.
Of course if a mother shrieks louder than most patients in the maternity ward there’s going to be commentary.
They are breathing people after all. I don’t see why the fact that they act like real people comes as such a shocker.
Comment by Seth R. — June 15, 2006 @ 5:52 pm
OK, flexible.
Got it.
Comment by Seth R. — June 15, 2006 @ 5:53 pm
Artemis, I may not have explained myself well. It isn’t that I think your *decision* is rosy (it is a perfectly reasonable one). It is that I think your expectations for what will and will not happen might be a little too rosy. (But since everyone’s experience is different–this might not be a problem. I’m just concerned about the possibility.)
My concern was the effects that you attribute to the Bradley method in the last paragraph of #46. In my story, the woman didn’t stop advocating (even teaching) Bradley after her experience, but it also didn’t, as you say, help her cope with the pain, not fear, not be freaked out, not panicked, etc, since she was completely convinced that she was–literally–dying.
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 15, 2006 @ 6:54 pm
Seth-I get what you are saying, and I agree that epidurals have their BENEFITS!(I’ve done it both ways).
But I do think it’s a shame when hospitals and doctors(NOT your dad/inlaw?) basically make it impossible for a women to choose a drug free birth for efficieny’s sake and that’s what happened to me with my second child.
I mentioned I wanted a drug free birth, the doctor was sorta like “well, we’ll see…” Now, he wasn’t the biggest obstacle even-when I got to the hospital, they basically didn’t let me out of the bed because they wanted me to keep the monitor on the whole time(you are suppossed to walk around alot, try to shower/get into a spa when you are doing Bradley). They insisted I be given a catheter even though I didn’t want one-for efficiency’s sake. They wouldn’t let me use some of my juices I made for energy(didn’t want me throwing up). I couldn’t even really change positions like how I did with the Bradley method cause my stupid monitor would move and then they’d come in and scold me!
Basically they had alot of babies to be delivered, and efficiency ruled how they approached my birth-I was to basically suppossed to just sit there and it’s very hard to labor like that. So, I ended up getting the epidural. It wasn’t a big deal regarding the epidural for me personally–it’s just sucked that I was not given more leeway with what I had planned.
As for Bradley–there’s a WHOLE lot of ways people can interpret the approach. I was very lucky to have midwives and instructors who realized I would tailor the approach in a way that would fit my personal nature and preferences. Basically I took what I liked from the method, and then improvised in other places, which was great.
Comment by Karina — June 15, 2006 @ 6:58 pm
pele, sorry to hear about your experiences, and thanks for the suggestions. I think I’m going to start doing yoga or Tai Chi sometime in the near future (I did Tai Chi a little in college, and I felt a lot calmer and balanced when I was doing it). I haven’t ever looked into acupuncture.
Comment by s — June 15, 2006 @ 7:09 pm
I gave birth to both of my children without an epidural using the Bradley method. I didn’t scream, or curse, or cry, or yell at my husband. My midwives were extremely supportive of my decision and my husband was a wonderful birth partner to me.
I was in labor with my son for 6 hours (he was rotated backwards so I had horrid back pain and had to push for over 90 minutes). With my daughter, I was only in labor for 3 hours. I arrived at the hospital 20 minutes before she was born. Both experiences were very peaceful and powerful.
Everyone, including my own family, rolled their eyes when I told them I did not want an epidural. My own mother told me after I gave birth to my son that she was shocked I didn’t end up getting one - she didn’t think I had it in me to have a natural childbirth.
Later on, my husband told me that watching me give birth, he saw a strength he never knew I had. And I felt empowered by the experience. It was one of the most amazing things I have ever done. It was painful, but it was worth it.
Comment by liseysmom — June 15, 2006 @ 8:05 pm
I haven’t read through all of this, so sorry if I reiterate someone else’s comments, but I have to say the thought of having an epidural gives me the heebie-jeebies, especially with all the other stories about efficiency-minded doctors and nurses around. My mom had all four of us kids cesearean and they put her under completely for the first one (me) I think because she had pre-eclampsia and the doctors were worried about getting both of us out alive. For my second sister she had an epidural, and for the third she also planned on having an epidural. Unfortunately, she reacted badly to the medication, the doctor didn’t listen to her when she told him to stop, and the reaction nearly killed her. Just to add a horror story about epidurals to the mix. I completely understand wanting to avoid an epidural for health reasons.
That said, I’ve heard there are genes that determine how stoic or sensitive anybody is in the face of pain. Some people with the “stoic” genes can withstand just about anything you throw at them, while those with only one copy or with no copies are relatively more sensitive to pain. I know (and am related to) any number of hypochondiracs who are just like your SIL, Artemis, will take pain killers at the first twinges of pain. There’s certainly a lot available for those types nowadays, and I watch people dumping gobbs of money into pharmaseutical companies’ pockets in their pursuit of a pain-free and illness-free life.
At the same time, I know a lot of people who choose to take on pain of one form or another. Almost anyone who has been involved in sports at a high level can tell horror stories of torn tendons, stress fractures, and myriad other afflictions. While I’m sure none of them choose the pain, many of them ignore it, playing through the pain, not infrequently against the advise of doctors, because success is more important to them than pain.
when I was in college we had a recruiting weekend. Every year I remember telling the prefrosh about how hellish college was–the bi- or tri-weekly all nighers just to get homework in on time; the constant spectre of failure; the sometimes paralyzing feelings of inadequacy brough on by physics homework; the weekly cry-fest after everything was turned in at the end of the week and you realized it still wasn’t over–and every year, they lapped it up, like kittens drinking antifreeze. The always though the pain was so cooool. We would scream to them, “run away! save yourselves!” and every year they came anyway. stupid frosh.
Then again, I was attracted by exactly the same promise of intellectual pain, so I guess I’m a stupid frosh too
Comment by kristine N. — June 15, 2006 @ 8:23 pm
I remember having my first baby. I remember being so utterly exhausted after 30 hours of labor, two nights of no sleep, 5 hours of an epidural and enough pain to have wanted to up the dosage right before they said it was time to push so I didn’t up the dosage and I only pushed because I heard my husband telling me to. His voice was the only thing that kept me going. I really had to reach deep down and give everything I had to push but I did it because my husband told me to (my brain had ceased to function).
I also remember giving birth to her and then they took care of her for a little while and then they actually expected me to hold her (how insensitive of them)! I was in a lot of pain (ouch, I’m getting stiched up and yes, I’d love a local thank you very much since I can feel you stitching me up) and had no energy left and told them to give her to my husband, for goodness sakes, I’m not in any condition to hold a baby.
I also remember lots of pain after childbirth. Breast and nipple pain. Postpartum depression. Pain during intercourse. In the years of being a mother I have pushed myself as hard as I can possibly push myself. I am quite impressed with myself because of many of my actions as a mother. And my husband is too.
I guess if natural childbirth is a goal someone has (like running a marathon), they should be proud of themselves for accomplishing it. It just seems like life has handed me plenty of other less optional challenges that have caused extreme amounts of pain and extreme amounts of sacrifice and dedication and hard work and endurance.
Comment by jks — June 15, 2006 @ 8:42 pm
Sounds like a bad hospital karina.
We were fortunate enough to get really good hospitals for both births. The first was Orem Community Hospital under the advice of my dad (MY dad, not Misty’s). For one thing, his clinic is attached to the hospital which was convenient for him (he could catch some sleep in his office and be in better form). Secondly, the staff there is really disciplined and top-notch. My dad hates doing deliveries at Utah Valley Regional Medical Center. He says that the fact that they have an intensive care unit (ICU) on-site has made the staff sloppy. He said that at Orem, he could show up, and, like clockwork, when it was time for things to happen, an entire support network of staff would just come out of the woodwork to help out. The anesthesiologist is there right on time, there’ll typically be about three or four nurses who show up to assist. Everything goes smoothly, and that’s exactly how it happened for us.
Dad got a hoot out of the look on my face when my daughter came out. He started laughing and remarked “Look at that grin! Like a skunk eating bumblebees!”
The second delivery was also with a very competent doctor and a good hospital. Laramie, Wyoming has an excellent hospital and things went well there (although with one or two delays we didn’t have at Orem). Cheyenne’s hospital isn’t very good from all reports.
Maybe we got lucky, but I definitely think it depends on the hospital.
Comment by Seth R. — June 15, 2006 @ 8:49 pm
I couldn’t give a damn what the medical professionals like and don’t like. And it was a key reason I decided to have #2 at home, with supportive, encouraging people. People who roll their eyes about my decision with what to do with MY body can go stick a pineapple up their butt, and kindly stay away from me when I’m giving birth.
And yes, let’s all make the OBGYN’s job easier because they aren’t making enough money to have to deal with any inconvenience. Heaven forbid they miss their tee time.
Comment by mindy — June 15, 2006 @ 8:50 pm
And Artemis, I must add that I think you are brave to invite people to share their birth experiences with you (even though you really wanted to talk about pain). When I was pregnant with #1, I tried to run away from people trying to tell me their horror stories. I read positive ones from books that gave information and ideas, but steered clear of women trying to scare me. I also stayed away from anyone who didn’t support my goal to have a natural childbirth. Who needs it?
Comment by mindy — June 15, 2006 @ 9:00 pm
I was in labor with my son for 6 hours (he was rotated backwards so I had horrid back pain and had to push for over 90 minutes). With my daughter, I was only in labor for 3 hours. I arrived at the hospital 20 minutes before she was born.
This is a perfect example of someone who is a good candidate for natural childbirth.
I remember being so utterly exhausted after 30 hours of labor, two nights of no sleep…
And this is a perfect example of one who is not. (My first was a nightmare experience as well.)
Hence the reason it’s great there are options out there.
Each person’s body, baby, laboring, etc. are soo different!
Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — June 15, 2006 @ 9:00 pm
I’m also due in August. I suppose home birth, using a doula, having a ‘plan’ never even crossed my mind- I never researched ANY birthing methods before I got pregnant because honestly, I wasn’t quite ready to get pregnant and having kids was never something I thought about much (I’m in my late 20s and I feel too young for it.) Sometimes reading threads like this make me feel like a bad future parent because I don’t have a plan nor did it ever even occur to me to develop a plan. I’m really laid back about the whole thing. I figure that the baby will come out, hopefully quickly, and as long as my insurance covers it, I’m good. Perhaps this is a common attitude? (On a side note, back in the 70s, my mom tried to have me natural after my sis was born c/s. I decided that I wanted to go back up after I started to come down, and voila, I was born via c/s as well. I’m very stubborn!)
Although it is not ideal, I’m currently on meds for depression - emotional pain. After talking to a psychiatrist, a therapist, a midwife, and an OB/GYN, as well as doing extensive research, we all decided it was best for me and for my baby (and I demanded a particular drug over the one that was originally prescribed.) I tried to cope, I tried all sorts of methods; I just couldn’t function normally. I think that big pharmecutical corporations wants us all to be ill so that they can sell us more and more drugs. But reality is that I can’t cope without these meds, as I’ve been off of them twice in the last five years and always had to go back both at my own premonition and the urging of my family. Sometimes we do jump too quickly to drugs - I think that many medications are prescribed with little or no investigation into the patient’s illness. However, when used properly, they fulfill a purpose. My medication gives me the room I need to heal by allowing me a distance from my ‘illness’ to survey my problems with a clearer focus; the assumption that medication simply masks pain is unfounded in some cases. Perhaps it is the very thing that allows one to confront the pain in an objective way.
Comment by Anonymous for now — June 15, 2006 @ 9:01 pm
SEth-yes, the hospital we went to was very safe and efficient and well liked by the community, but it was definitely not the right fit for us though(and my doctor wasn’t very supportive either).
Your hospital sounds great in terms of how they give women more options on how to deliver. My first hospital was in the boondocks out in Oahu-a little country hospital with not alot of outward bling to it! But it my awesome doctor had rights there, it had a laboring spa, I was able to walk around all I wanted, move around drink, whatever, and the nurses were just very supportive.
The hospital approach makes ALL the difference the world, I agree.
Comment by Karina — June 15, 2006 @ 9:06 pm
I would also add that with my first son (epidural) there were ZERO complications, and with my second (no epidural) he spent time in NICU and I was beat afterward…
As for pain… I don’t like it, and I will do just about anything to avoid it. I have no problem popping a pill to nix a migraine. I have, however; experienced emotional pain that is not due to depression, and feel that to experience it makes you grow. I have not always delt with my problems this way.
You see I was a drug addict for years and I did it numb various “pains” in my life. It didn’t work very well. They say that when you take asprin to treat a headache you get what they call “rebound headaches”. The same goes for emotional pain. You see, you stop developing emotionally when you self medicate with illegal narcotics, so in my case, when I stopped using at 25 I had the emotional maturity of a 17 year old. I had to deal with the “pain” that I had been numbing for 8 years. No fun.
So maybe there is something to be said for going with the pain instead of against it. At least, thats what my mother says, and she has been living with fibromyalgia for 15 years. I think thats pretty wise. Mother Eve said the same thing essentially. “I see that this must be…”
So it must be. Pain in alot of ways is growth, but I think it is sorrow and emotional pain that we are talking about (excluding clinical deppression and other mental illnesses), not the pain of child birth or a headache or a toothache, but good ol’ growin’ pains. They are called that for a reason.
Comment by kristi — June 15, 2006 @ 9:26 pm
seth \
sorry this says alot about me, but… wasn’t it weird having your dad looking at your wife “hoowee”? I mean I would like my father-in-law getting a good look at me “down there”.
Comment by kristi — June 15, 2006 @ 9:35 pm
I have a 3-yr old son, and am due with #2 in 3 weeks. Before the birth of my son, I had the idea that I could go for natural childbirth, but my husband sincerely pleaded with me to have an epideral for his sake and I agreed.
It turned out that I developed preeclampsia and that our son had to be delivered by urgent C-section at 31 weeks. I literally did not see or hear him until the 3rd day after he was born. He spent 5 weeks in the hospital, the first three weeks of which I could only hold him a 1/2 hour a day.
He just turned 3 and is healthy, and happy, and amazing. Even though I consider him my own personal side-kick, it is too bad that I will never be as close to him because we were not more aware of each other at the moment of birth.
If you want to pass out badges of courage to yourselves, try a near-death experience for yourself and your baby. It’s amazing that we’ve achieved such a high level of comfort in our society that we now need to glory in pain.
Comment by AudreyTX — June 15, 2006 @ 9:38 pm
FWIW, flexibity, laid-backness and the abllity to roll with the punches/change when needed are much more important virtues than well-laid plans. Your kid woud not follow your plan for him/her anyway; no matter how well-researched and detailed that plan might be.
Kids are really, really good at deflating the control freak within us.
N.O.
Comment by not ophelia — June 15, 2006 @ 9:39 pm
I had a 37 hour labor, I went the first 20 with nothing at all… then I got so exhausted they put me out…but none the less…
If I…who is scared of everything can do that for 20 hours…anyone can. Don’t let anyone dissuade you,
many feel guilty that they didn’t do it. And adding to the health benefits to the child…adds to their guilt as does bottle feeding.
I have absolutely no respect for modern medicine ( aside from ER and Trauma ) and I think it is awesome that you are doing it the natural way, the way god intended, not the way MAN intended.
I have ALOT of information to back up my feelings on this…
Comment by Roman ( yes I am female ) — June 15, 2006 @ 9:46 pm
Artemis,
What was the point of your post again?
Seriously, this is a lesson for me - if I have a point to make, don’t try to make it using childbirth as an example.
(My b-i-l, a doctor, said there is NOTHING that brings out more emotion in the medical world than the topic of childbirth!)
64 - This is a perfect example of how medicine is a blessing. Good luck to you, btw, with the birth of your baby. You will be fine. Laid-backness will come in handy when you are a parent.
Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — June 15, 2006 @ 9:49 pm
67 — That said, it doesn’t HURT to at least know what options there are. I wish I had been a little more informed going in so I could have known when my dumb doc was just being dumb.
Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — June 15, 2006 @ 9:53 pm
m&m (#69),
Amen!
Everyone–really, I don’t want this to turn into a debate over which childbirth approach is “The Best”. If the gloves keep coming off, I’m either going to start deleting comments or turning off the comment option. Or both. Please be respectful and avoid polarizing comments.
Comment by Artemis — June 15, 2006 @ 9:58 pm
Artemis, if your pediatrician suggests that your baby has reflux—and it seems to me that more and more babies are getting this diagnosis for fussiness and spitting up—will you medicate? Not being snarky at all, just genuinely curious.
In a situation like this, where women are comparing birth stories, I always take the party line: whatever works for you. The truth is, though, that going natural—or going as natural as they can—feels like an achievement for the women who do it, so they will always deep down feel a shade of superiority.
Comment by Rosalynde — June 15, 2006 @ 9:59 pm
Oops—just saw your comment above, A; sorry if my #72 seems polarizing. Like I said: whatever works for you!
Comment by Rosalynde — June 15, 2006 @ 10:00 pm
“it is too bad that I will never be as close to him because we were not more aware of each other at the moment of birth”
Whoa! I hope this was sarcasm. If you were serious, you should know that the always-debatable evidence of needing to ‘bond’ at birth has been debunked as applied to humans. (It was based on animal studies.) For more, see the adoption thread!!
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 15, 2006 @ 10:03 pm
Mindy,
I never even saw my dad most evenings growing up throughout elementary school. I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who put in more hours and worked as hard as he did. In the early days, he used to take a lot of baby delivery work. I don’t think he got much sleep in those days. He was regularly being woken at 2:00am and called off to the hospital to help some woman deliver her baby. Day, night, weekends, Sundays (he was the only man in our rural Utah ward, for whom a pager in Sacrament Meeting was socially acceptable), holidays. Didn’t matter.
OBGYN work didn’t really pay that well comparatively. The malpractice insurance rates on OBGYN work are through the roof these days and it’s becoming harder and harder to find a private practitioner willing to deliver babies and risk one of the most lawsuit-prone clientele in medicine: parents of a new baby. But he still took it. My father always felt the calling of his profession very deeply and was completely devoted to serving the people of the community.
He loved golf. Used to work as a caddy as a boy to get spending money. But he rarely golfed during my childhood. Just too busy.
Being a doctor is hardly an easy way to make money. You want money, get an MBA or MPA. Doctors put in an insane amout of work and don’t make half as much money as the sterotypes portray them making. That goes double for OBGYN work - a largely thankless, nerve-wracking, demanding practice area that just doesn’t financially pay off.
“Line their pockets …”
Good grief. Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?
Just because the woman is the one experiencing labor doesn’t mean that she’s exempt from excersising a little common human decency and maybe a modicum of gratitude.
I suggested in my first post that perhaps the well being of the medical personell might be considered as a factor in the pregnancy. It’s nice to them, it makes the pregnancy go smoother … And that isn’t just a benefit for the staff, it’s a benefit for your baby as well to allow the doctor to work under conditions where they are at their best. That minimizes mistakes. That optimizes the pregnancy. These things ought to be considered.
And I don’t think that is a very controversial suggestion. The anger here is baffling to me.
I never suggested that you ought to value the hospital/doctor/staff’s needs more highly than your own.
I mean, I’m generally a big fan of putting others’ needs first … But even I’m not ridiculous enough to advocate putting anyone but the pregnant woman first in a pregnancy.
But let’s consider the other important people in this pregnancy, OK? They’re often overlooked and taken for granted and they do a really important job for people. And few of them (except maybe the anesthesiologist) really make much of a profit from it. A little more thanks and less venom is possibly in order.
Comment by Seth R. — June 15, 2006 @ 10:12 pm
I’m also frustrated because I admire the medical profession a great deal and I feel that I’ve somehow failed to convey that here.
Comment by Seth R. — June 15, 2006 @ 10:26 pm
Haven’t read the whole thread yet, but wanted to throw 2 cents in. As someone who lives with chronic pain, I offer the following: pain sucks. It makes it difficult to think clearly, to be as useful as I’d like to be. It reminds me of my limitations.
Which is to say, pain isn’t so terrible. The first time I realized that my body was ***me**, that my soul was body and spirit alike, was about 8 hours after essentially having my head cut off and then sewn back on (ah, the glories of spinal surgery). I had to breathe deeply to sit up in the bed, concentrate to brush my tangled hair. Every action required concentration, and it was the best meditation–ironically–I’ve ever had. I was on painkillers at the time, but nothing totally kills that type of pain. And I’m bizarrely glad. I hate pain, but I like what I learn from it. I like that it makes me feel more alive. It reminds me why we want our bodies back again after we die—because it’s altogether too alarming NOT to feel the cool of ice cream on your throat or the ache of a stubbed toe. It’s alienating, and terrifying.
I take pain pills with some regularity and on doctors orders, but it frightens me that as a society we so readily quell our bodies’ alarm systems, go trudging up into the avalanche by pretending it isn’t there. (OH my, pardon th mixed metaphor!) I think it’s extremely cool of you to have natural chilbrith, Artemis. Your body remembers sort of like your mind does, and working through physical pain for a beneficial reason offers immense satisfaction. And you get to stay in touch with your whole soul, the whole time.
Comment by Janet — June 15, 2006 @ 11:17 pm
Are you kidding, Seth? The OB is NOT NOT NOT NOT an “important person in the pregnancy” - he is a professional HIRED to do a job by the parents. I am a similar professional myself, and I can honestly tell you that though it is hard being on call, it sucks to be woken up at 4 am when you just got home at 2 am, and it really stinks to miss family events like birthdays, I knew full well going into this job what it would entail. I was willing, or I wouldn’t have taken on the job. And I would NEVER expect a woman to base her medical decisions based on *my* convenience. Ever. My professional opinion should be considered, certainly, that’s why they hire me. But even then they can choose something other than what I would recommend. They have the legal and moral right to CONSENT (or not consent) to any treatment prescribed. And when it comes to pain medications (which truly are an OPTION) I wouldn’t even try to influence that decision the way I might push medication for high blood pressure or antibiotics for an infection.
The only “important people” in a pregnancy are the mom, dad and baby. No one else has the right to impose their convenience on the truly “important people”. No matter how many years of medical school they have. To think otherwise is just wrong.
Comment by Anon birth professional — June 15, 2006 @ 11:35 pm
Artemis, thanks for a fascinating post. I’m about halfway through Elaine Scarry’s _The Body in Pain_ so I’ve been thinking about this issue more than usual lately.
Since I don’t have any experience or even any opinions about childbirth (:>), I’m going to take this in a different direction. What, if anything, is the religious or spiritual significance of pain?
On the one hand, I’m uncomfortable with _seeking_ pain as a spriritual act, although most religions have ascetic traditions, and Christianity has had a pretty hopping one. As a Mormon who worships an embodied God, I can’t go along with the extreme revulsion for the physical in some ascetic traditions.
On the other hand, I’m equally uncomfortable with what Artemis and Janet and others have mentioned about our proclivity to suppress all pain immediately, with what I’ve seen referred to elsewhere as the American medical system’s fundamentally anti-tragic view of life, the expectation that everything can or should be treated or cured.
Does pain have inherent meaning? Does God inflict pain on us to teach us? (Not crazy about that idea.) Or is it up to us to make meaning of our suffering? In some ways I’m attracted to that idea, and in other ways, I’m repulsed. I particularly resist others’ attempts to make meaning out of my own painful experiences for me. I think that just as we, as a culture, tend to race to the medicine cabinet, we also can’t wait to tell suffering people why it’s God’s will that they suffer. (As if God is going to reveal the meaning of your pain not to you but to…your busybody neighbor who just can’t control her impulse to spin amateur theodicies in her garage.) It drives me nuts.
Comment by Eve — June 15, 2006 @ 11:41 pm
Yes, some apology for my snarky comment (#66) above. I was being extremely sarcastic. I don’t feel any less bonded to my son because I didn’t get to see or hold him for a few days.
I have to ask in all sincerity though, and a little more on the topic of the thread, why is it that labor pain is a better form of pain to suffer through than say, passing a kidney stone without any pain-killer?
My mom had four of us naturally then had to have an epideral for an emergency c-section for the fifth and final child. She was cracking jokes with the doctor, relieved to suddenly be free from the pain, and said she would never go back to natural childbirth after that.
So, is it all just an attitude on how each individual deals with the pain they go through? One woman’s amazing childbirth experience is just something that another (say in a mud-hut in Africa) endured?
And, do you who advocate natural childbirth also shun any pain-killer for menstrual cramps or discomforts due to the fact that menstruation is also a “God’s plan for women” type of pain? Is there something holy, character building, and refining about bloating and cramps?
Comment by AudreyTX — June 16, 2006 @ 12:40 am
Wow, some of this thread reminds me of how working and stay at home moms can be so suspicious of eachother’s motives! Sometime people get excited about a birth method not because they want to be superior but because they found something that works for them and of course, they can’t wait to tell a mother to be. Because it’s just an exciting time. My love for the Bradley method is not meant to mean to take away anything from another woman’s experience-it’s not suppossed to be personalized in that way whatsoever.
Pain does have meaning in certain contexts too, and that’s when it’s helpful. Child birth for instance-knowing why you are feeling certain sensations at different stages of labor have meaning.
But it’s very hard to talk about pain in general, because pain in a limited space of time like child birth is one thing-pain like my friend who feels it keenly every day from a horrible accident she had at the age of 12, is something totally different. It’s so apples and oranges, I can’t speak to anything like that and would simiply like to hear other’s experiences to better understand where they are coming from.
Comment by Karina — June 16, 2006 @ 12:54 am
So, back to the pain.
I think pain, in both spiritual and feminine perceptions, should be seen as birth pangs of a new creation. In all instances, and not simply childbirth. Pain is a signal something new is unearthing in us or through us.
I don’t think this makes the earth or the universe masochistic. It just seems natural. Springtime, for example, always seems painful and angry to me. The flowers are the brightest and sweetest smelling of the year. but they are volatile, and don’t last long. Springtime weather is uneven, and human tempers can often flare. But when things settle down, summer comes through.
Thus, I think childbirth is the perfect venue for discussing pain. Every single one of us has experienced birth, whether it’s childbirth, or not. Pain seems to be a part of that.
And no, no, no I don’t think people in chronic physical or emotional pain should shun relief — I think relief is a specialty of MiH, and our chronic pain sufferers are closer to Her comfort. I know I’ve felt strange, warm, loving presence when deep in muck. I wonder if we’re not feeling more emotional and physical chronic pain these days, because we’re longing for our MiH.
Comment by pele — June 16, 2006 @ 1:38 am
#78
So …
Exactly where do we disagree? I don’t get it.
Comment by Seth R. — June 16, 2006 @ 3:34 am
Ok I will say this again since it was apparently deleted or did not make it to the board.
I do not hate all doctors, tho I beleive them to be inherently dangerous. I beleive modern medicine is only mans medicine.
A good book to read on the establishment of modern medicine is by a renouned and respected doctor named Robert Mendelssohn. He exposes the truth -as only a true doctor could…in these three books. Read if you dare.
Confessions of a Medical Heretic
Male Practice how doctors manipulate women
and last but not least…
How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of your Doctor
these are real books and i have read all three.
These explain my rather reluctance to embrace anything medical or modern..
Comment by Roman ( yes I am female ) — June 16, 2006 @ 3:41 am
Eve–maybe the way we react to pain says something about who we are as people? I’ve seen everything from courage in the face of excrutiating chronic pain to constant complaining and eventual sumbission to said pain. I’ve known people who tough it out, and people who hurt themselves by being too tough. there are people who avoid even minor pain, or use pain as an excuse for not doing things, and others who don’t and probably should. I’ve seen each of these characters in myself at different times and in dealing with different kinds of pain.
Intellectual pain I resent, but I go back for it, expecting that the lessons are more important than the discomfort (I’m defining intellectual pain as a struggle with difficult concepts that I’m never quite sure I’m going to understand). Physical pain I’m okay with, to a point. If I loose the capacity to function or if it impedes sleep I start taking medication, but I always feel weird about it. I can tell I should hurt, and that’s almost as distracting as the pain.
But emotional pain is crippling for me. I am the whiniest, most annoying person on the planet if I feel bad. I think all of those responses show a lot about me as a person, and, when I’m thinking about it, show me where I should be working to improve myself. That’s my personal, maybe abstract way of finding a lesson in pain, and I don’t know that it’s a terribly spiritual response.
Comment by kristine N. — June 16, 2006 @ 4:20 am
Artemis,
I enjoyed your post and it seems the classic discussion ensued about pain versus non pain.
Personally I think you might enjoy reading “Birth as an American Rite of Passage” if or when you get a spare minute. The point is that the medicalization of birthing has a lot to do with a reflection of our our cultural values in general and less to do with pain. You are spot on when you mentioned Hollywood and the classic portrayel of a woman in duress.
I have had three children so far and am now 17 weeks pregnant with twins. My first was born in Europe without meds. It was tough but wonderful and uncomplicated. Midwives run the show in many European countries and I learned so much from that experience. I did have the baby in the hospital but midwives (CNM) did everything. A doctor did not even attend me but was waiting in the wings “in case.” It was such a cool experience and my view of birth changed forever.
My second I had in LDS hospital in Utah and an OB attended the last 3 minutes of the birth. It was a 24 hour painful back labor and I got the epidural after a bunch of pressure from my mom and the nurses. Not that it wasn’t a relief from the pain! But, as a result of getting the epidural, I fell off the birth curve, ran a fever, and was pumped with antibiotics in addition to being threatened with a section if I didn’t deliver on time. But all that aside I was thrilled with our daughter and that is what really matters imo.
However, I vowed “never again” and I found and independent CNM at St. Marks for our third birth. My CNM has been practicing in Utah for 30 years and was incredible and so supportive. I had a two hour labor, massages, and went to a 9 cm in the jacuzzi tub. I laughed and cracked jokes through most of the labor. I really had no real pain until I pushed but the pushing did not last long. Because it was Christmas Eve most of the nurses were there and it was really a joyous even.
We are back in Europe now and I am pregnant with twins. Before I found out we were having twins I wanted to birth at home but now that I know I would feel safer in a University hospital. I may even have a section, who knows? In a lot of ways this is a much scarier idea for me than birth without drugs.
My point is, when giving birth women should try to remain flexible and not worry too much. I think personal revelation is very important in this area. You never know what a situation will demand. And as for pain…I think how we deal with pain is a personal journey and will be different for everyone.
Comment by Krista — June 16, 2006 @ 7:34 am
I was thinking about this last night–I didn’t know there was a free-standing birth center in Utah. I think it’s cool that you are birthing there, Artemis, and I wish you the best with your upcoming birth.
Comment by Vicki — June 16, 2006 @ 8:29 am
I’ve had three unmedicated. I didn’t do that to be superwoman…I did that because I have a fear of needles and there was no way in hell anyone was putting an epidural needle in my back. I had a lot less fear of the pain of labor. I could handle the blood draws and them starting IVs ok, because I could see the stick. I was never professed by any of my Utah medical professionals to go one way or the other because I had normal pregnancies. Everyone around me was pleasant.
The more you inform yourself the better off you’ll be. This is true of anyone about to give birth with any level of medication or intervention. It’s so true when it comes to labor and childbirth that knowledge is power. (My first it was 23 hours with lamaze, my second was a one hour emergency with self taught bradley, my third took the better parts of bradley with a great big dose self learned self hypnosis, lasted six hours.)
While I’ve been called “pioneer woman” for choosing unmedicated labors, which I found less painful than I expected, I have been the subject of disgust for not making my husband be present during the birth. While I fear big big needles he has an outright phobia of childbirth. He once panicked and passed out during a viewing of “The Miracle of Life”. He gets green during ultrasounds. He steps out of the room during pushing and delivery. After the baby is born there isn’t a thing I have to do besides rest…he takes care of everything else.
We all handle birth differently, men and women. Some of us know where are limits are before we get there…some of us learn our limits while we are there.
My first two labor stories are in the February archives of my blog. My last will be posted in a couple days.
Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — June 16, 2006 @ 9:32 am
AudreyTX (#80)
Here’s my take on why labor pain might be viewed as “better form of pain to suffer.” Most pain is a sign that something is wrong. Headaches commonly mean that you’re a little dehydrated. Stomach pains can mean any assortment of things, but always indicate a problem of some sort. Even the bloating and cramps you mention could be considered a sign of something wrong, (I’ve read that women with ‘better nutrition,’ especially water intake and calcium, tend to have less or no bloating and cramps. But that could be wrong, I don’t know for sure). With *most* (not all) labor pains it is a sign of something going right. It means the baby is coming.
At the same time anyone who will decry a woman for seeking pain medication is out of line in my book. It smacks of early medical professionals saying that labor pains were the punishment of women placed upon them by God for Eve’s actions in the garden.
The reason I prefer a natural birth is this: Catheters terrify me. At the same time my baby came in an hour and a half start to finish. So in my mind not being cathetered is reason enough to bear with the (little) pain I had.
Comment by Starfoxy — June 16, 2006 @ 9:58 am
Eve, I was so excited when I saw a mention of Scarry (I wrote an entire question about her on my Ph.D. comprehensive exams). I find the book immensely fascinating, though I have a number of complaints with how she formulates things. Have you ever read “On Being Ill” by Virginia Woolf? In some ways, it’s like a miniature version of Scarry’s book.
As for your thoughts and questions on the spiritual significance of pain, I like your focus on finding meaning in suffering, though I think there is a certain extent to which pain is perhaps not meaningless, but still impossible to justify or explain. Pain is part of this mortal experience, it sucks a lot of the time, and sometimes there’s no good reason for it. Which is not to say that we can’t grow and find meaning from painful experiences. But pain sometimes just is.
Comment by S — June 16, 2006 @ 10:08 am
Starfoxy, I think you raise some interesting issues when it comes to pain and childbirth. Feminists often criticize the medical establishment based on points similar to the ones you are making. Because Western medical practices have traditionally been focused on treating diseased bodies, eliminating illness, etc., it’s been standard to accept the attitude that if you’re going to the doctor, it’s because your ill. The problem is that women (more than men) see doctors in order to check up on natural processes of their bodies (childbirth being the most prominent). However, because the medical establishment has been so focused on treating bodies as things that are diseased, natural processes of the body such as childbirth (and labor pains) have been painted as signs of illness or, more generally, bodily ill. Things are slowly changing, but I think these are cultural assumptions that are difficult to escape sometimes. _Women and the Body_ by Emily Martin is a good book that gives an overview of this issue.
And to add a caveat–I’m not anti-medicine or anti-doctor. I think doctors are good people who do good things much of the time. I just think the cultural assumptions that are part of Western medical practice have been (and continue to be) troubling at times.
Comment by S — June 16, 2006 @ 10:21 am
I have heard this debate for the past four years. You know what?? Who cares!! I get epidurals because it makes my delivery more relaxing and pushing time shorter so I can see my baby quicker. I endure the pain as long as I can. But when I see my husband and mother’s faces look at me with pity, I get the epidural so we can all enjoy the experience together. I love that right before birth, I can tell jokes, laugh, and talk about the news. The pushing time is short, I still feel a little bit of pain and pressure so that I know when to push, and everyone is happy. An epidural birth is still considered natural, by the way. I never judge because there are mothers out there who had to have c- sections and felt so guilty about it and others who adopted their children. They are good mothers, as good as the ones who give birth, at home, in front of their children, video taping blood and private parts and all. (Is that more natural?) Traditionally, husbands were not even around when the woman gave birth, and a lot of women and babies died, so I don’t want to hear about traditional births either. In a lot of third world countries, they give out c-sections like nothing, so I don’t want to hear about the weak American woman either. Just love your baby, tell your cool stories about being a mother, and stop the judgements already!!
Comment by atalee — June 16, 2006 @ 10:35 am
I didn’t read all the comments, but I just wanted to say to Artemis, “You go!” I am also 7+ months pregnant with my first, and I pretty much expect to get an epidural. But I really admire people who do the natural childbirth thing, and I am especially attracted to the idea of a midwife. Maybe next time around when I know a bit more of what I’m in for…
Comment by Caroline — June 16, 2006 @ 10:51 am
So…pain…. I have skimmed through most of the comments, but forgive me if I repeat what anyone else has said, it’s just that my experiences with pain are many and varied, and it’s something that I think about a lot these days, now that I have a chronic illness that makes most days relatively painful, in one way or another. But I used to relate to pain in a totally different way.
I was a very athletic child/young girl/teenager, and during those years pain was related to a sort of joyous testing of the limits of my body. Deep down, I actually enjoyed those workouts that led to burning lungs and lactid acid, and I remember feeling a great sense of accomplishment the time I worked out so hard that I nearly blacked out (er…not a smart thing to do in a swimming pool, btw). Sore muscles then meant I was using my body up to (and a little beyond) its potential, and those knots all felt like little badges of courage. Those aches and twinges reminded me that I was living life to the fullest.
Now, aches and twinges don’t tell me such glad tidings, but they still do tell me things. I have become so attuned to the protestations of my body under duress that I often know now what I’m doing wrong and right for myself, and in small ways I can manage it naturally. It would be easy to mask pain daily, popping a pill even before I know what level of discomfort that individual day might bring. (Such is the nature of chronic illness–you know something is coming, even if you don’t know what.) But then I’d miss the messages my body is sending me, and I’d miss the chance to learn from these experiences. Don’t get me wrong, once the message is received, and it’s a familiar and strong one (”oh yeah, this pain, I know where you come from”), I don’t really mind knocking back somethin’ nice and checking out for a few hours, but most of the time, I’d rather feel those twinges than feel numb. I guess in a way they still remind me I’m living life. And of course, if I automatically medicated every day, I’d miss the wonder of those rare experiences when I wake up in the morning, and my feet hit the floor, and….nothing. Normalcy. Remembrance. And that feeling is worth it.
I think, as this question relates to childbirth, that I’d want to go unmedicated at least once, to know what living in my body is like at that moment, to fully experience what my body can (or cannot) do. My desire to fully feel that experience is in no way related to other people’s choices, only the desire to know myself.
Comment by EmilyS — June 16, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
Maybe fear of pain isn’t the pathology at work here. It’s the fear of judgment. Fear of the pain of judgment, perhaps.
Comment by rebecca — June 16, 2006 @ 3:06 pm
S, cognitive poetics is pretty new to me, and I’d love to hear your thoughts on Scarry–maybe a ZD post when you have the time? I find her fascinating, but there are things about her formulation I would question (and I have to say I think it’s odd that a woman could write a whole book on pain without devoting a section to childbirth!).
Comment by Eve — June 16, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
I should point out that one of the possible drawbacks to an epidural is actually an increase in “pushing time.” Because the pain is less, an epidural can actually cause some women to take longer in getting the baby out because there isn’t as much “painful motivation” to just get it over with.
Increased pushing time has a risk of stressing the baby (if it spends too much time in the birth canal).
Of course, others have pointed out that epidurals can also decrease push time. So I guess it depends on the woman.
Comment by Seth R. — June 16, 2006 @ 4:43 pm
Eve– Sure! I can make a Scarry post at ZD sometime. It would be fun to write about academic stuff I’m interested in knowing there’s someone out there who will read it! As for Scarry, I find the omission of gender-specific concerns odd as well, especially since in addition to pain, she’s really interested in issues of subjectivity, objectivity, and embodiment. How can you not talk about those things without addressing the problematics of gender?
Comment by s — June 16, 2006 @ 4:59 pm
Nothing bring out the claws like the medicated/unmedicated discussion!
When I told people I was planning an unmedicated birth, I got the same thing– everybody jumped on me to have the epidural. I got the distinct impression from a lot of women that they felt like *I* felt I was better than them for even attempting it. I was terribly disheartened by the lack of support from my fellow women. I wasn’t trying to say I was better… I wasn’t even trying to push my “brand” of birthing on anyone. I was simply answering their question of what my birthing plan was– A very personal question that for some reason everyone feels entitled to ask.
The worst part was, the minute my plans left my lips, EVERYONE within earshot had to jump in with their horror stories. I did a program called Hypnobabies. It taught that you don’t *have* to feel pain, if you can program your mind that it won’t be there. As part of that, I was supposed to avoid all negative images and stories of childbirth. No one could respect me enough to help me with that. I stopped telling people my plans.
It’s almost like telling your childbirth horror stories is a badge of honor or a rite of passage among women. How much better would it be if our rite of passage could be telling each other, our daughters, our sisters, about how beautiful and peaceful childbirth can be? Instead of scaring the next generation of unsuspecting mother-to-be, why don’t we support them and encourage them? I know not everyone has ideal birth stories. Some of them truly ARE “horror” stories. But does a nervous mother-to-be *really* need to hear that?
At any rate, even though I HAD a wonderful birthing experience–3 hours, no medication, easy recovery and hard work but NOT pain– I don’t feel free to share my story because all the women around have to jump in and discount anything I say by saying I’m NOT the norm, and “childbirth is REALLY like *this*…”
The reason I chose to go unmedicated, by the way, is because I’m a genealogist. Strange, huh? I have done a lot of research on my great-great grandmother, and I feel a wonderful closeness to her. She had 8 kids at home with a midwife. I wanted to do something that I felt would bring me closer to her. It worked! I know she was there with me, helping me. Thanks, Grandma Lillian.
BTW, I’d like to know more about the birthing center in Utah. If I had known there was one here, I would have checked into it. What’s it called?
Comment by Beck — June 17, 2006 @ 12:59 am
I would like to add that “Birthing from Within” is a wonderful book for women considering having a baby. It focuses on the emotional and physical aspects of bearing children. We attended classes by the same name, and I can not say enough good things about them. It also helped my husband feel included and useful.
I have had 2 babies without any medications, and it couldn’t have been too bad because I am currently pregnant with baby #3! I think it is all about frame of mind. The pain has a purpose! My second labor was INTENSE, but it was all motivation to get the baby out quickly!
It is just like any pain in life, we do with it what we choose - it can either help us or debilitate us.
Comment by hapok — June 17, 2006 @ 11:36 am
Utah’s one and only freestanding birth center is:
The Birth and Family Place
2180 East 4500 South, Suite 150
Holladay, Utah 84117
Phone: 801.278.3102
Fax: 801.278.3112
Email: info@birthandfamilyplace.com
Accredited by the Commission for the Accreditation of Birth Centers (CABC)
Member of the National Association for Childbearing Centers (NACC)
www.birthandfamilyplace.com
Comment by Artemis — June 17, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
Ah, Artemis, you knew I couldn’t pass up a birth discussion without coming out of the woodwork, eh?
Particularly mentioning pain vs suffering.
Something that seems to be often overlooked in these discussions is that malpresentations and complications are not so random nor entirely left to genetics as people seem to believe. Mothers can usually help their baby get in the right position for birth ahead of time. Mother’s bodies are designed to stretch and flex (muscles AND ligaments) and baby’s head compresses/ plates overlap) IF the right mix of hormones are present (induction and epidurals screw that up right out the gate). Good nutrition and exercise, avoiding drugs, junk food, and other harmful substances during pregnancy and birth, and avoiding interventions actually improves your chances of avoiding a host of complications (including prolonged or stalled labor) for yourself and your baby. No, it’s not an iron-clad guaranatee (tell that to my client, a midwife in excellent health who had 17 hours of excruciating back labor before delivering a sunny-side up baby, or to another client who also happened to be a midwife who had 3 days of labor), but I am always surprised when I talk to moms about how little they know about how much a choice to labor supine or stay mobile (as just one example) can have on labor, and how much of the improvements in maternal and infant health have to do with better nutrition and cleanliness, not drugs and surgery.
Laboring in bed with a monitor and IV strapped to you is more painful and increases your chances of complications. Induction is particularly problematic. Induction is what makes VBAC dangerous, not birth itself. Induction even makes first-time birth more dangerous–doubling your chance of cesarean surgery. And in the current climate, that limits your future options, not only in terms of mode of delivery, but also increasing risks of other complications (like uterine rupture and placental problems) but also potentially limiting family size as well. In the short term, it makse breastfeeding more difficult, bonding more difficult, recovery more difficult, parenting children one already has more difficult…
Surgery is great when needed. Not so great when iratogenic (the fault of the doctor–failed induction, etc.) Most parents in the US are also unaware that the more C-sections we do as a nation, the more our infant death rate rises–and it is on the rise. And our rates are already worse than a score of other industrialized nations–and a few non-industrialized ones! Yes, socialized medicine is part of the reason, but not all of it.
Oh, I’m sorry, were we talking about pain? I’ll just go ahead and disappear into the woodwork again. Great post, Artemis.
Comment by LisaB — June 17, 2006 @ 4:30 pm
Holy cow…amen to that. I also was pitied, feared, worried over, and gossipped about when I mentioned out loud that I was planning a homebirth. I think people assume that you’ve hired a witch to come and sacrifice chickens at your house, and you’re mildly satanic.
However, Beck, your point about the pain being a “badge of honor” reminds me of how a lot of society carries pain. I think it is a language of woundology, grounded in a paradigm of Original Sin.
Interestingly enough, LDS has no doctrine of Original Sin (which is very much in your favor), and I wish you would advertise that paradigm more. Original Sin, unfortunately, is still believed and practiced by a significant portion of the population.
Original Goodness prompts one to listen to the pain, and work with it to see what it tells you. It prompts one to go within, instead of pop pills. Popping pills is part of the woundology badge of honor, too. Invasive treatments are horror stories which make for good conversation at church potlucks, filled with the sugary, refined baked goods and junk which probably made you sick in the first place…it’s like, why bother being healthy, when the world is sinful.
Now, the disclaimer: in no way am I judging any of you. I am judging the people I grew up with. I realize I have a lot of forgiveness work to do in this area. So, I’ll go work on that now.
Comment by pele — June 18, 2006 @ 1:12 am
shouild be my fave topic but there are so many posts on here already!!
go with your instincts and stick to your guns. i have just retired as a childbirth eduactor for the uK’s www.national childbirth trust.org.uk
we encourage women to be empowered by informed choice, many want to feel in control , in classes i taught a lot about active birth relaxarion etc but as our c section rate is 25% locally the chances of intervention are high so we have to be realistic. couples report that knowing what was happening and why helped them to make decisons and go with their instincts to obtain a happy outcome for all
good luck and i’m sure all will be fine as for pain i have also had 3 high tech births because of complications and very long labours..but when i had an ovarian cyst that burst last year that was far far worse!! i delayed calling the doctor till i realised that breathing out the pain was doing no good whatsoever and this required help!! however when i broke my leg in october they kept offering me morphine and i declined i really wasn’t in that much pain!!!
but stub my toe on the door….ouch!!
Debra
Debra UK
Comment by debra — June 18, 2006 @ 7:48 am
I wonder if our readiness to medicate also comes from our standard of living- perhaps we take comfort in the fact that, with every little ache and pain, we can be assuaged, we can afford to buy the twelve dollar bottle of Excedrin, or go to the doctor. Maybe it has to do with a pain free life equaling an affluent life. Pain is something that happens in third world countries, it doesn’t need to be experienced here in our glossy, clean, we-have-something-for-everything society.
I would also say that, the difference between childbirth pain and other types of pain is that it involves a natural process, and it involves two people, and the process (*when it goes well*) is designed to be effective and beneficial to both parties, whereas a cavity is a problem, and involves only you and your infected tooth, for example- I think someone may have already said this. Also, I think the problem many childbirth activists have is not that people choose pain relief, but that pain relief is chosen for them, and many people have no idea what kind of side effects that can have. For many people it is the only major hospital experience they may have, and yet they go into it so blindly, not by their own fault.
As far as people saying that “wanting to experience childbirth pain seems to come awfully close to saying that you should experience Eve’s Punishment” I take the complete opposite viewpoint. I think that the way we currently deal with childbirth makes it a much more negative pain than it in all truth is- when it goes well, it is a wonderfully intricate, and perfect system for mother and baby. By lumping it in with pinched nerves, and toothaches, headaches and hernias, “annoying” “pointless” pain I think the power behind it’s function is lost.
Comment by sophia*rising — June 18, 2006 @ 8:31 am
LisaB:
Good to see you again!
I’ve missed your presence in the bloggernacle and it almost pains me to make the usualy disclaimer that I make when you comment on birth issues:
If there is anyone out there that hasn’t already seen LisaB and I go ten rounds on this, you should know that I think that virtually no statement in her post is an accurate reflection of current scientific knowledge on the topic and I would strongly encourage you to research for yourself every claim that she (or anyone else for that matter) has made on this post.
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 18, 2006 @ 12:00 pm
I had no medication whatsoever and my 18 hours of labor were excruciating.
Hollywood and the Lamaze proponents led me to believe that breathing exercises would help me control the pain of childbirth. It did nothing for me, besides giving me something to do besides shriek and moan-and that seems to have been more of a benefit to my husband and the hospital staff than to me.
If I have a second child–I would have a serious discussion with my obstetrician about pain management during childbirth. There is no way I would ever advise any woman to rule out the option-especially when this is your first child.
Aside from any value judgements–pain is to be avoided. At least keep your options open.
Comment by A.S. — June 18, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
Here are two possibly interesting articles on the topic. http://www.webmd.com/content/Article/120/113807.htm?pagenumber=2
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/97/104130.htm
I love this quote from this link:
“There is no scientific data that supports one method of delivery unequivocally over another,” he says. “Women should be told about the advantages and disadvantages of both, and should be trusted to make the right decision for them.”
http://www.webmd.com/content/article/61/71438.htm
I think it is ridiculous Julie, to say what everyone else has said is based on speculation and not science. Your orininal blog is based on one study done in 2003 and on one doctor’s personal opinion.
I am not saying you don’t have the right to choose–in fact I think everyone who is under 5′ 2″ should absolutely have the option (don’t know how tall you are)–but don’t say there is not science to back up the other view–because there is plenty–I won’t bother writing every single other study I know of.
Comment by Em — June 18, 2006 @ 9:16 pm
I had a midwife (at the hospital) for baby #2. My friend told me how she was there for so much of her birth…..Just my luck though that she was busy because someone else went into labor (or something, who knows). She didn’t spend one extra moment with me than my OBs for my other births. She barely made it for the birth. She had JUST left and told my husband it was ok to go get dinner when suddenly, I insisted it was time to push and I had to talk a nurse to into checking me–I was a 10.
In the days before my husband had a cell phone.
Comment by jks — June 18, 2006 @ 9:17 pm
Em, I’m still trying to process you quoting a study that says there is no data to support one over the other and then calling me ridiculous for stating that none of LisaB’s absolutist claims are warranted. Can you unpack that contradiction for me?
And: I didn’t say that what everyone said was based on speculation. I said (1) virtually nothing that LisaB said is based on indisputable scientific fact, although she presents it that way, so (2) anyone interested in this topic should do their own research and (3) that applies to every claim that has been made on this thread, not just LisaB’s.
(I’m five foot even.)
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 18, 2006 @ 9:33 pm
I guess I don’t think LisaB is being absolutist about anything.
“you should know that I think that virtually no statement in her post is an accurate reflection of current scientific knowledge on the topic,”
You said yourself that you don’t think her claims accurate. Just because you think that, doesn’t make it so. There is plenty of evidence to back up her claims. Perhaps she fails to post links because you seem to skip over them flippantly.
Frankly, I think from reading your T&S post you are a bit too sensitive about the subject and ignore any other scientific info other people give. Just because someone says a natural birth i better does not mean they are saying you are wrong to have a C-Section. For instance, I do not think you were wrong–but I think natural birth is better for both mother in better. But that is in an ideal world. I myself have had 3 children–none of them have been medication/intervention free. But I still think natural child birth is better. The science shows it.I just couldn’t have one. I have lots of friends on both sides of the issue and have never felt judged about it.
It seems to me that you are saying a C-section was/is the best medical choice for you (especially at 5′!).
I think everyone else that is saying natural child birth is better is just saying that in general terms.
I don’t think anyone thinks mothers in your situation are wrong.
I don’t think it is bad for moms to talk about their birth stories all the time either. It may be dull to some—but it is unique to womanhood and women from all walks of life can find something in common quickly that way.
I’m sorry you had a traumatic first birth–and feel ostercized by other moms–but I think you are taking that upon yourself–and people aren’t really judging you like you think they are.
Comment by Em — June 19, 2006 @ 12:02 am
Hey Julie! Yeah, let’s not have our first conversation in months be about this.
One area in which Julie and I completely agree is in fully informed consent. We agree on lots of other things, too.
Comment by LisaB — June 19, 2006 @ 6:18 am
“Perhaps she fails to post links because you seem to skip over them flippantly.”
Em, this is really funny. Apparently you don’t know the history that I have with LisaB. We went for MONTHS on the ExII listserv batting studies back and forth. I would estimate that I have followed, read, and responded to about 40+ links that LisaB has sent me. (Is that a fair estimate, LisaB? I never really counted.)
Em, I don’t feel judged or ostracized by anyone. (If someone here was trying to do that, they should know that, having throroughly researched my decision, I just don’t care what anyone else thinks about it.) I do sense that you want to dismiss my viewpoint because of my personal experience. I suppose that would be OK in a world where we dismissed the pro-natural-birth viewpoints of homebirthers because of their own positive experiences. Like them, I bring personal experience but also some knowledge of medical realities to the table.
The reason I responded to LisaB as I did is that I have noted a tendency among natural birth advocates to make statements that simply are not supported by scientific evidence (or: some evidence supports the claim, but other, equally compelling evidence, does not). Because these get batted around so often and with such certainty and casualness, I am afraid that moms-to-be might accept them at face value. All I did in my original comment to LisaB was to suggest that people investigate her claims because there is another side to all of them.
I absolutely am not going to rehash the citation war here (anyone curious should be able to get into the ExII archive), but 1/3 of British female OBs said that they would choose elective c/s for themselves. Some will dismiss them as mindless obediacs to the medicial system, but people who have a different view of doctors will at least want to explore what would lead them to make that decision.
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 19, 2006 @ 11:46 am
OK–I have obviously misread or read too much into many posts. I’ll just go for the middle of the road and stick with this doctor again:
“There is no scientific data that supports one method of delivery unequivocally over another,” he says. “Women should be told about the advantages and disadvantages of both, and should be trusted to make the right decision for them.”
Julie I really appreciate you voicing your opinion on this. I really wish more people would research this. It is more dangerous to be in labor for several hours and then have to have a C-section–it they would have rearched, maybe they would choose differently.
I guess it comes down to choice (what you’ve said all along). We should be able to make an informed decision.
Comment by Em — June 19, 2006 @ 12:34 pm
Em, I agree 100% with your last post.
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 19, 2006 @ 12:54 pm
I think it’s useful to note that intuition and personal revelation are also not scientifically based, and neither is the practice of laying on of hands or annointing. A woman’s body often picks up on and conveys non-scientific knowledge. The relatively recent debate on childbirth comes from a nexus where pain, creation, and women’s spirituality meet.
Women’s bodies are a connection to the divine, plain and simple, because we are born as divine vessels of creative power (I think this applies whether or not you can physically have children). As such, giving birth to babies is only a small, but significant part of our creative power — both intellectual and intuitive.
It’s interesting to consider that pain, in terms of childbirth, is associated with the birth of new creation. When a woman chooses to feel the pain of new birth full on, she is making a non-cognitive statement to the divine that she is fully present.
I think that’s what’s really behind this drugs vs. no drugs argument. It’s not about medicine or science, or which type of birth is statistically safest. It’s about realigning with the collective acceptance of women’s healing and creative power.
Not much has gone on with the study discussion, but it would be interesting to go back and see just when women gave over the power of laying on of hands and anointing.
Comment by pele — June 19, 2006 @ 2:52 pm
what does being under 5′2″ have to do with childbirth? did I miss something?
Comment by kristine N. — June 19, 2006 @ 3:35 pm
women who are under 5′2″ have a 50% chance of having an emergency C-section while in labor–given the odds–I think she ought to get to choose
Comment by Em — June 19, 2006 @ 5:51 pm
Em, do you have a citation for that? That’s one I haven’t heard before!
Comment by Julie M. Smith — June 19, 2006 @ 6:45 pm
I’d like to address the US infant mortality issue. Part of the reason why it is higher is that we can keep premies alive when their chance of ultimate survival is poor. Other countries categorize them as miscarriages or stillborns.
http://www.drudge.com/news/81213/us-has-second-worst-infant-mortality
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2006/05/22/regarding-the-uss-high-infant-mortality-rate/
Comment by jks — June 19, 2006 @ 8:31 pm
“Ruby! Them durn godless Europeans has been miscountin’ the eggs in the henhouse agin! Where’s ma shotgun?”
Comment by Seth R. — June 19, 2006 @ 10:24 pm
jks,
your 2nd link is better, but it still shows the U.S. has a much worse infant mortality rate even when the stillborn definitions and racial factors are accounted for. Besides, most other industrialized nations have the same technologies and skilled personnel to attempt to keep preemies alive. Unless there was some documented evidence to suggest that those countries tried less to keep preemies alive (which I doubt), then the poor ranking still stands.
Personally, I think the answer (apart from the acknowledged economic & racial disparity in access to care) is well-articulated in this blog entry. (Big surprise.)
Comment by Artemis — June 19, 2006 @ 11:14 pm
Julie,
http://www.ivanhoe.com/channels/p_printStory.cfm?storyid=12119
http://www.healthnet.org.np/thesis/gynaecology/rani/review.PDF
http://forums.obgyn.net/forums/ob-gyn-l/OBGYNL.9707/0340.html
http://www.greenjournal.org/cgi/reprint/107/6/1386
The last link you have to pay for–I have it in print though.
Also, I had two other studies I can’t for the life of me find.
I’d spend time googling them, but have decided to resign myself from this and that other mommywars discussion. People get really heated about it all (including myself), and few people seem to learn anything–so I am not posting on these topics anymore. It’s not a civil discussion–and things get really convoluted in email and blogs. Whereas you might not agree with someone-maybe in person you could see more eye to eye.
Comment by Em — June 20, 2006 @ 12:17 am
I had all my children without drugs, but not on purpose. I wish I hadn’t had any pain at all, but I must say, I am a short woman and I had short labors and quick recoveries. Horrible pain and degradation and a total loss of dignity, but still. . .
Comment by annegb — June 20, 2006 @ 6:10 am
http://www.overpopulation.com/articles/2002/000019.html
Artemis, try this one. It isn’t that other countries with technology don’t try to save the premie. It is that they don’t record the BIRTH of babies that small.
“In the United States about 1.3 percent of all live births are very low birth weight — less than 1,500 grams.”
“It is odd if both Cuba and the U.S. have similar birth weight distributions that the U.S. has more than 3 times the number of births under 1,500g, unless there is a marked discrepancy in the way that very low birth weight births are recorded. Cuba probably does much the same thing that many other countries do and does not register births under 1000g. In fact, this is precisely what the World Health Organization itself recommends that for official record keeping purposes, only live births of greater than 1,000g should be included.”
One article said that even including stillborns our baby death rate is higher. But it is the very low weight births that are recorded differently in the US. Other countries can count those as miscarriages.
Definition of miscarriage from medicinenet.com
“Miscarriage: Inadvertent loss of a pregnancy before the fetus is viable. A considerable proportion of pregnancies end in a miscarriage. Also called a spontaneous abortion.”
Comment by jks — June 20, 2006 @ 7:56 pm
Yah, I knew that was what you were saying, but I thought the report on your 2nd link accounted for those differences in reporting. Perhaps I mis-read it.
Comment by Artemis — June 20, 2006 @ 8:14 pm
Off topic a bit-
I was inspired by Ida May Gaskin’s “Guide to Childbirth” and “Spiritual Midwifery”. I highly recommend them.
On other matters, I was thinking about LDS women and history and their once very strong role as midwives AND doctors (remember the 1st female, Dr. Shipp, was LDS?- as were other pioneer women like Dr. Cannon, etc.)
Here are some ramblings on the early vision of LDS RS and medicine as well as contemporary applications of LDS RS values.
*BTW, it opens other aspects of maternity and neo-natal health care such as circumcision. (Which is another interesting tangent on ‘pain’.)
Comment by J.A.T. — June 22, 2006 @ 1:08 pm
Let’s see if that link will come through:
http://correctprinciples.blogspot.com/2006/02/circumcision-debates-and-covenants.html
Comment by J.A.T. — June 22, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
re: Bradley method
This discussion is fascinating.
I had my first two children with epidurals. Was determined to feel what childbirth felt like, so I went with the Bradley method for my third child.
I read the book — could not afford the lessons. My husband was at the birth but really didn’t do anything except be there, silently supportive. My doula, also, didn’t really do anything until the transition/pushing phases, when she proved to be INVALUABLE. Wonderful women, doulas. Highly recommend them. She interceded for me with the hospital nursing staff and let them know what I wanted and what I didn’t want.
I got through it. Relaxing through the contractions to get to full dilation was the “easy” part. For me — yes, I did cry out a number of times during the later parts of labor.
But regardless of how your particular birth goes — how long it takes, whatever — you will never, ever forget that glorious moment when that baby comes sliding out — after the head and shoulders are delivered, and the baby comes slipping on out, ready to be loved. It’s a glorious moment — sorry to be so emotional.
I remember the feeling of the baby moving down the birth canal inside me. It is worth it! Do it!!!
Catherine
Comment by Catherine — June 26, 2006 @ 12:16 pm