188 Comments »

1. My advice is simple (and going to be very unpopular round here). Stop feeling guilty. And you can, trust me. I know.

   I’m not even precisely sure where, or what the exact “official” church stance is at the present moment (I’m sure someone will enlighten us), these things are known to change (slowly, subtly, and unacknowledged) through history. And to some degree, I find that irrelevant anyway. I have no interest in justifing my stance through the vagaries of church policy. Though that can be fun too.

   I don’t think masturbating is a sin (a personal belief and one I don’t really care if anyone agrees with), but just for arguments sake, let’s say it is. Here’s my thought on sin. There are big sins and little sins (yeah this doesn’t always work so easy, but still), there is murder and there is speeding. Where the harm is great, the sin is great, where the harm is small, the sin is small. (again, people will disagree, but I maintain that a married couple defrauding the elderly out of their retirement savings are commiting a much graver sin than a gay couple who’ve been having sex for twenty years.)

   What harm do your actions cause? I would say none. Many would disagree. But list them. Add them up. Weigh them. Then see if the level of guilt your feeling lines up with the amount of harm you think you’re doing. I doubt it does.

   I would give the same advice to someone who found themselves constantly driving five miles per hour over the speed limit. You can masturbate, and still be one of the best people on the planet. I doubt it’s going to weigh in very much in the course of your life, in the sum of your actions.

   The amount of guilt you feel for something does not necessarily bear a direct relationship to it’s sin quotient. I feel terribly guilty when my house is messy. I doubt this is going to weigh in much at the last judgement. And I certainly don’t go to the Bishop to confess about my messy house. We get guilt from all kinds of sources that have nothing whatsoever to do with sin/logic/or even the still small voice.

   Most every reliable mental health professional on the planet will tell you:
   Masturbating will not turn you into an unsatiable sex fiend or any other kind of pervert.
   It won’t make you more likely to have sex outside of marriage.
   It isn’t an addiciton.
   It won’t undermine your possible future sexual relationships (just the opposite in my experience).
   It doesn’t devalue or replace sex.
   It doesn’t require nor lead to porn use.

   I’m sure we’ll have all kinds of people commenting on how masturbating ruined their sex lives or their marriage or whatever. And perhaps this is true for them, but it isn’t necessary nor even normative. Again, I’ve found the exact opposite to be true in my life.

   And at risk of a thread jack:
   I do think there is something wrong when a 20something woman thinks she has to talk about masturbating behind closed doors with a male middle-aged stranger. Bad enough if he is well-intentioned and generally inspired. Tragic in the cases when he is not.

   Comment by fMhLisa — October 12, 2006 @ 12:54 am

2. Intersting that this should be brought up here as this was JUST being talked about the other day on Live Journal.

   http://community.livejournal.com/booju_mooju/622049.html

   This is one of the issues I do not agree with the church’s stance on. Perhaps I am just a big sinner or maybe it’s because I’m a convert and wasn’t raised that way, but to be honest, I think there is nothing wrong with masterbation. It actually has pysiological reasons behind it, as stated in the post I linked to (prevents labial adhesions in girls and aids in foreskin retraction in boys).

   I completely agree with Lisa’s comments above. In my experience, masterbation has enhanced my sex life, not taken away from it. I think masterbation is normal and healthy.

   The ONLY exception to this is addiction to masterbation. Just as one can become addicted to sex, food, sugar, the internet, whatever, one can be addicted to masterbation. That doesn’t make the entire act wrong always at all times, however. And those cases really are in the minority.

   Comment by Lindsay — October 12, 2006 @ 1:23 am

3. Lisa and Lindsay, you are ignoring what hairfullofsecrets is saying. She is not asking you to tell her it is OK. She clearly does not think it is OK, and she wants to stop. She feels it is a problem of compulsion. You have to respect what she is saying and what she needs. Telling her she is wrong is not constructive. She is saying she wants to stop engaging in a particular behavior and cannot, you are telling her there is nothing wrong with the behavior. That is not addressing what she is asking. She wants to stop. Respect what she wants if you really want to help her.

   hairfullofsecrets, when people are dealing with problems where they feel like they do not have control over themselves, there is usually some other root cause that needs to be ferreted out and addressed. Whatever is leading you to engage in this behavior is what is causing it, meaning it is not something you are doing because of any benefits in an of itself. A book I recommend is WIllpower is Not Enough by Dean Byrd. It will help you identify the root cause of the behavior, and in eliminating the root cause will result in you stopping the behavior. The root cause probably has little or nothing to do with the behavior. If you can find a therapist or counselor to consult with, someone you can trust and have confidence in, then that might help too. You do not even need to tell the counselor what the behavior is, as your real interest is in discovering the root cause and eliminating it.

   Comment by Anonymous — October 12, 2006 @ 4:54 am

4. Awhile back I came by this thread at Belief Net in the Mormon Women thread that I think you might find interesting because it depicts varied attitutudes and thoughts of many women in the church concerning this issue (and one of the posters even mention FMH! LOL):

   http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?pageID=26&discussionID=395589&messages_per_page=4

   I would also agree with the previous Anonymous and her or his comments. Whether or not I think masturbation is a-okay (and I admit I share most of fmhLisa’s attitudes) does not change the fact that you are still disturbed and struggling with this practice, hairfullofsecrets. Its all well and good to get counsel from “professionals” (and lay clergy) but I would also put a lot of effort in your own personal revelation and prayers. This issue, no matter what others say, is between you and your Heavenly Father and will only be healed when you can come to peace with who you are and how He feels about you.

   For what its worth: I personally know that Heavenly Father loves you immensely. Hang in there and try not to let this struggle drag you into despair. There are far worse sins and far worse things in the world than this.

   Comment by Another Anonymous — October 12, 2006 @ 6:37 am

5. By contending that masturbation is against the Law of Chastity, the Church creates an impossible and unhealthy situation for its singles. many of whom have been through the temple and do not wish to break covenants. For most normal adults, masturbation is a healthy way to address ones sexuality while single.Bishops should not encourage or mandate discussion about a single persons sex life, especially when it is solo sex.

   Comment by jj — October 12, 2006 @ 7:10 am

6. I’m just chiming in to add that I agree with fmhLisa… it’s obvious that hairfullofsecrets is upset by what she perceives or has been taught is sin.

   My advice, just like Lisa, is to step back, forgive yourself and put things into a larger perspective. I’ve experienced what you’re going through and I understand how awful it feels.

   I don’t know if it’s a “sin” per se or not, but like Lisa said, if it is, it’s a VERY SMALL ONE, although it may not seem like it. There are physiological reasons behind it and you can stop feeling horrible about it. Really.

   HUGS. I’m going to email you.

   Comment by Watermelongirl — October 12, 2006 @ 7:37 am

7. More hugs. When you say it’s a problem are we talking about a problem that is a problem because you feel guilty over it on occasion, or a problem that is controlling your life by consuming your thoughts? If it’s the latter, then I concur that you might want to talk with a professional about it in terms of alternative ways you can channel your (natural) sexual energy.

   I also think that the fact you have even discussed this highly personal practice (habit?) in private with a (or five) bishops is really to your credit. You are courageous. I could never admit anything so personal, even to a bishop, because I find it highly improprietous, even though in theory it isn’t supposed to be, in practice, it really is.

   Comment by meems — October 12, 2006 @ 7:52 am

8. I’m actually really surprised at the comments so far, not at all what I expected, but it’s early yet, I suppose we’ll see what happens.

   “Lisa and Lindsay, you are ignoring what hairfullofsecrets is saying. She is not asking you to tell her it is OK. She clearly does not think it is OK, and she wants to stop.”

   I got that, I did. But perhaps it’s more to the point to address her reasons for wanting to stop, the guilt. Perhaps it will be useful for her to find the reasons behind her behavior, as you suggest, but I would think that in 99% of cases the reasons behind masturbation are pretty straight-forward, natural and healthy sexual urges. Just as in 99% of cases the reasons behind water drinking are pretty straight-forward, natural and healthy thirst.

   I suppose there might be a deeper problem, where it is not unnecessary guilt but obsession and compulsion that is the problem, and couseling could help that, but those type of problems are extremely rare.

   Let say you took a devout Muslim woman from her home in Saudi Arabia, put her in what any reasonable Mormon would consider a modest swim suit and took her swimming at the beach. Let’s say she found great pleasure in feeling the sun on her shoulders, in swimming in the waves, lets say she wanted to go to the beach every day, but felt consumed by guilt for exposing her body, her hair so flagrantly. Would you feel that she needs to find a counselor to help her to stop wanting to go to the beach, to teach her to hate swimming. Or would it be a better solution to help her let go of the guilt.

   Comment by fMhLisa — October 12, 2006 @ 9:32 am

9. Yeah, I agree with most everyone. Love yourself and let the guilt and self-loathing go. I also am amazed at your courage in talking to bishops about this. I never would or could if I were you. What was their advice anyway?

   A friend of mine went to an LDS university and had a professor who said that 95% of people masturbate, and the other 5% are lying. Not a very original quote, but interesting that it came from a devout member and he knew he was addressing young LDS people. I think this is one of those things where the church will evolve too.

   Hugs to you! This is obviously a very big deal to you and I hope you can find some peace.

   Kerri

   Comment by Kerri — October 12, 2006 @ 9:50 am

10. I read this and my heart just went out to you. As a teen and young adult I really struggled with masturbation and the extreme guilt that went along with it. The women in my family all have REALLY strong sex drives and seem to be in an almost hormonal frenzy for a period of time. I was not able to find a way to deal with it. It wasn’t controlling my life or anything, but I felt compelled to do it at least once a day.

    What WAS controlling my life was the guilt and despair I felt because of what I’d read in Miracle of Forgiveness - that it was a sin next to murder (or something like that - can’t remember the exact words). I was convinced, convinced, convinced that I was going to hell. CONVINCED. And I let that belief ruin my life. Convinced I was going to hell anyway, I started doing other bad things, secretly - shoplifting, lying to everyone about everything… I really believed that my soul was black. I read the scriptures constantly, trying to find a way out. My life was a mess, although to most people who knew me, I was 200% Molly Mormon, even a bit of a prude.

    I eventually went to the bishop, who shocked me when he told me that masturbation is a habit, not a sin - a habit that we need to keep from becoming destructive, but not a vile sin. Some of you may feel the bishop was wrong to say that, but his words probably saved my life.

    It wasn’t the habit that was destructive to me or my spirit, it was the belief that I was going to hell because of the habit. Once I was released from that guilt, my life changed.

    I don’t do it any longer, mainly because my husband is only too happy to benefit from my lustyness. It’s a happy curse now.

    Masturbation is NOT a sin like murder. To say so is just crazy talk. And to tell impressionable, weak, earnest young people that is horrifying.

    Comment by anon — October 12, 2006 @ 9:54 am

11. As much as everyone wants to say it is not destructive, it is–and can be addictive. I have two extended family members–one is addicted and struggling–the other was so used to masterbating that he can not have sex–he can not get turned on by a woman because he is so used to his own hand and fantasies. It ruined his marriage–he couldn’t have sex without masterbating at all–and prefferred masterbation.

    Lisa–
    I’m not sure your analogy is a good one. Muslim women can do all of those things in private or in the company of women.

    Comment by anon2 — October 12, 2006 @ 10:11 am

12. I struggled with this also. My parents never talked about sex or anything closely resembling it. I don’t think they ever used the word “naked” and bodily functions were termed Number 1 and Number 2. I had no idea what I was doing, and I was very confused about it. I think it is sooo important to have an open dialogue with children about their bodies and about sexual relationships. There’s a really good book (I think it’s called From Diapers to Dating) for parents about teaching their children sex ed, and it emphasizes that sex ed is not all about teaching about intercourse. Sex ed should be about learning about your body and learning to feel comfortable in it.

    The problem I have with masturbation is that, at least in my case, it led to inappropriate thoughts. I never knew why I struggled so much with bad thoughts. But when I stopped masturbating, and I prayed and read my scriptures daily, then the inappropriate thoughts gradually stopped. I was always good about scripture study and prayer, even when I struggled with masturbation, but it was only when I stopped masturbating that the scripture study and prayer really worked to clean my mind.

    Now, as a married woman, it’s kind of interesting. Sometimes if I don’t orgasm, I actually feel physically ill. One option is for me to just masturbate and get it done. But I think it’s important and bonding in a marriage to learn to meet each other’s physical and sexual needs, so we work together on this. My husband and I are both understanding and patient with each other’s sexual needs, and I think that’s part of the interdependence that’s important in a marriage. This sexual relationsip didn’t happen overnight. Rather, it evolved over time, just like other aspects of our marriage. Having a healthy sexual relationship with your spouse is indicative of a healthy relationship in general, I think.

    For children it is developmental to explore their bodies. I have noticed that one of my children rubs himself when he feels badly or left or, or when he is just plain bored. I try to redirect it, but I think that emphasizing it too much will just draw more attention to it. It can be hard to not have a knee-jerk reaction and to just tell him to stop it and get up! As he gets older, we can have more dialogue about his body. I don’t want him to be confused like I was.

    As far as learning to stop, it can be difficult, but it isn’t impossible. Reading your scriptures and praying will help. I think it’s Pres. Benson who said that when you read the Book of Mormon a power flows into your life that will help you to resist temptation. Actually, the primary children are singing a song this year called “Scripture Power” that talks about this power. When you feel physically like you can’t stand it, try taking a cold shower, or maybe going for a run or doing something else physical. Try to change your routine and get rid of things that remind you about it and that put you in the habit. Stephen Covey has written some great books about Highly Effective People and it’s all based on developing habits. i really like his Highly Effective Families book. Also, explore other reasons as to why you are doing it. Is it an addiction? The fact that you have the courage and the willingness to discuss this with a bishop makes me think that it is not an addiction, but that there is another issue here. Is it perhaps an outlet? If it’s an outlet, then finding a new outlet can be the answer. Like someone else said, maybe it would be helpful to talk with a professional couselor who can help you see if there are underlying issues going on. A bishop is great for confessing sins to, and he can give divine assistance, but sometimes a professional counselor is a good person to add to your team.

    Lastly, cast your burden on the Lord. After all you can do, trust that He will help you and that He will carry your burden. He loves you and wants you to be happy. Know that you are not alone. It’s hard to deal with issues that nobody wants to talk about. It just makes it harder to overcome. I don’t like when church becomes a place where people are focused on looking good instead of on reaching out and acknowledging that every life is filled with trials. Trials can be overcome! You can do it! Also, you can come out of your trial a better person as you learn to trust in the Lord and to rely on Him.

    I’ll be praying for you that you will be able to figure out the reason why you haven’t been able to overcome your trial, as you have such a great desire to do so. I’ll be praying that you will be able to cast your burden on the Lord and that, by doing so, you will not only have the strength to overcome your trial, but you will come out of this experience a better person. Remember who gives us our weaknesses: the Lord! Why? So we can learn to trust in Him.

    Ether 12 is a great read. Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

    Comment by Anonymous — October 12, 2006 @ 10:21 am

13. Things that helped me: anti-depression medication and getting married. I think I used masturbation as a way to self-medicate in the harder/sadder parts of my life. It made me feel better. When I was happy with my life, I could control my sexual urges much better and didn’t need that extra high to make it through the day. Now that I’m married I go to hubby for satisfaction, in good times and bad–he is very obliging :).

    Comment by someone — October 12, 2006 @ 10:21 am

14. I don’t know why but I did not have the urge to masturbate until a year or so after my mission. I went through kind of a test of my faith for a while. I was not feeling as close to the spirit as I had for years–it was kind of a dark time in my life. I was even considering taking a “break” from church. That never felt right to me so I stayed active but I was mostly just going through the motions.

    My point is, at least for me, I didn’t think much about self gratification except when I was in that dark time. And self gratification wasn’t what was bringing me down…it was my intellectual side coming to terms with my religious side that was confusing.

    Eventually, I found my comfortable place in the church, feeling the spirit again. Although, I got married not long after that and enjoy a satisfying sex life with my husband so I can’t tell you if I would be thinking about it if I were a 30-something virgin.

    I guess I don’t really have any advice for you but this was my experience. I am not saying masturbation=dark place but that was where my urges were intense.

    Comment by anonymous — October 12, 2006 @ 10:39 am

15. Also, my brother in law that is struggling (the one thing keeping him from being mission worthy is masturbation) has found a great LDS therapist that has helped him tremendously.
    He is also using the He Did Deliver Me from Bondage book for the church 12 step program. He started masturbating at 13, now he is 21. It’s not easy when you’ve had the habit for that long.
    I also have a friend who really struggled with this as a teen. I’m not sure how she ever overcame it, but she did. It is doable.

    For all those who think it is not hurting anyone—I have seen it destroy lives! If someone is addicted to sex in any form it is destructive. (I am not talking about a healthy marital sexual relationship)
    I have thought about this a lot–because obviously this is viewed as normal in the world at large. Certainly it is human, and certainly humans are not biologically monogomous either–but that does not mean being monogamous is not desirable and better for society. Likewise, masturbation while biological does not mean it would be better not to masturbate.

    Comment by anon2 — October 12, 2006 @ 10:54 am

16. For those of you that say it’s not a sin, doesn’t this prohibit you from holding a temple recommend? I have been asked that question in a recommend interview. Just curious.

    Comment by another anon — October 12, 2006 @ 11:18 am

17. Well you shouldn’t have been asked that question in a temple recommend interview! Your bishop was out of line. You should be asked if you are obeying the law of chastity. Period. Any other “probing” into the details is not the job of the ecclesiastical leader.

    Comment by Another Anonymous — October 12, 2006 @ 11:22 am

18. I started reading this blog out of sheer curiosity. I am a man, and like most men, I have enjoyed periods of masturbation as well as felt guilty every occasion. It is not something that I always relish, but it is something that at times has controlled me. I once talked to a bishop about it and his response was that if I felt that I needed to talk to someone about it, I could talk to him anytime. He didn’t condone the practice, but he didn’t make me feel like a complete sinner. My stake president told me in my marriage interview that it would take care of itself in marriage and not to worry about it. The trouble it, I still worry about it. Sometimes masturbation is more satisfying than sex. It may seem strange, but there may be a number of factors for it: time restraints, mess, control, comfort, etc. What is most interesting is that in highly spiritual moments I look at this sexual practice and don’t necessarily feel disgust with myself, but rather I feel as though I can overcome it. I feel as though I can start over and not be subject to its addictive feel. A masturbatory habit is just as addictive as any other drug, since it is a chemical addiction to the wonderful chemical reactions of euphoria. I will not deny the momentary satisfaction, but I think the guilt I feel is more of disappointment with not being able to completely control myself than anything else. When I was younger it led to a lot of pornography which enhanced the occasion, and that even led me to look for it is places I wasn’t supposed to go (I stole it). The trouble it, I understand the habit/addiction for what it is. I know that the underlying reason for it is not only solitude but depression. I don’t have any local friends, and therefore I don’t have anyone to talk to our hang out with. My wife is supportive, but she doesn’t understand the practice and so I don’t discuss it with her. (secrets and bad, I know) Sometimes knowing the underlying cause will not remove the habit.

    I can be controlled. I controlled it on my mission without problem. Problem, however, was that I reentered the real world ill-equiped for the onslaught of internet porn. It hit me like a bus and I found myself lost to it. Masturbation became my only outlet from it. After the euphoria wore off, my desire for it was much less. (who ever though of masturbation as a solution to salacious porn). I don’t think that anybody can really give you the means or strength to overcome this addiction. We have to find something to replace the euphoria we crave: exercise, sporting events, service, etc. I have always noticed that the crave is less when engaged in activities with other people.

    Comment by the man — October 12, 2006 @ 11:51 am

19. it sounds like you have tried to quit and can’t.
    therefore, here are church resources for overcoming addictive and ocmpulsive behaviors.

    the 12-step meetings are listed here, and you can download the manual and go through it on your own. at meetings, you don’t need to say what problem you’re there for.
    http://providentliving.org/content/display/0,11666,6629-1-3414-1,00.html

    take care!

    Comment by cchrissyy — October 12, 2006 @ 12:05 pm

20. I have no advice for hairfullofsecrets (don’t get the movie reference, anyone want to enlighten me?); masturbation was never very satisfying to me and thus not much of a temptation.

    For those who think there’s no harm in it though, I have to object. Strongly. Sex is not something instinctive in primates (which is, scientifically, what we count as) but something learned. When you masterbate you are teaching yourself that this is what sex is like. The sharp learning curve once you are married not only distresses you but your spouse. Intercourse should be about what the other person wants and enjoys, not about “getting off” as fast as you can.

    Comment by Eh? Nony Mouse — October 12, 2006 @ 12:12 pm

21. I’ve got a wierd situation- masterbation is pretty much fine with me, but my husband is a former sex addict and to him it’s a really loaded thing. Becuase of his negative associations, I don’t do it. But I wish I could! We don’t have the type of relationship where I could do it and “save him the pain” by just not telling him.

    Comment by LDS wife 1 — October 12, 2006 @ 12:24 pm

22. Hmmm. Interesting Nonny Mouse. It took my mother 7 years to have an orgasm and she never, ever masturbated before that time. Dad was a virgin and didn’t know what to do to please her. I guess that is a pretty common LDS experience, right? Thats why we have sex therapists in the church.

    Finally she figured out what she needed to have a more pleasant experience when she, ahem, “took matters into her own hands” (so to speak). Is this wrong? It seems like her learning curve WAS pretty steep and definitely unnecessary. Had she known something about her body this might have been completely avoided and their intimacy wouldn’t have gone through such a trial.

    The thing is, not being able to enjoy sex really did impact their marriage and when she found out what she needed to have happen to enjoy it their marriage was much better off. It mattered to my father too because he felt helpless to please her and sex is definitely a give and take kind of thing. The truth is that many women don’t know what they need in this department because of all the “hush, hush” and taboos. She, like you, never liked masturbation but she did eventually use it as a tool to understand her body better and help my father please her. How is this wrong, bad, or evil?

    Yes, my Mom has been very frank with me because she didn’t want me to go through the same thing. So far that hasn’t happened, either.

    But just like any tool masturbation can be misused. As some have pointed out there are those that can become addicted to this behavior. Unfortunate, but any behavior can become a habit or an addiction. If that is the case then what is necessary is not to debate the merits of masturbation but to rather find out the source of the issue that the person is having. IMO masturbation is a very personal affair and between you and God. You can know if you are on the straight and narrow path if you are experiencing the promptings and assistance of the Holy Ghost.

    Also, I think the experience of masturbation for women and men is an entirely different matter and cannot be compared. Most women believe that nice girls “don’t” and many of them do not think it is normal and berate themselves for being freaks. This is unhealthy and I think can cause greater problems in the long run than realizing that these urges ARE normal and natural. Self-Mastery is a life long process and one we should strive for-but not one that can be achieved through guilt and secrecy.

    Comment by anon — October 12, 2006 @ 12:45 pm

23. Jane,

    I am a female in my 20s and I overcame this.. not by guilt or self-loathing by through love. Masturbation in and of itself is not wrong (it’s 100% okay for married people to masturbate together) but as a single person, it does stimulate one’s sexuality at a time when it must set aside.

    Love yourself. Your sex drive and your sexual organs are beautiful and intended parts of you that will be used for amazing purposes (NOT just having kids) at a later time in your life.

    Comment by Anonymous_7 — October 12, 2006 @ 1:09 pm

24. Why is it that for men and women it is so different and cannot be compared?? I think I agree with you, but I don’t know why….
    Is it a double standard, or are you that are okay with it, okay with it for men and women??

    Comment by another anon — October 12, 2006 @ 1:13 pm

25. I think it is a bit of a double standard. Also, a woman doesn’t have it, how to be delicate?, hanging out there. It is definitely more of a discovery process (at least imo). Also I would be willing to bet that the majority of women who do masturbate don’t necessarily imbibe in pornography or other similar behavior. As Dr. Phil has said: “women love through their ears” (and less through their eyes).

    We also have SUCH a high standard for women in the church. Men “need” the priesthood but women don’t because of their special status as mothers in Zion (how many times have I heard this in R.S. meeting? Too many to count). Because of this “perfect” image many of the women who actually have a sex drive feel dirty, unworthy, and ashamed. But for many of the boys this is something they regularly discuss with their fathers in their PPI’s and they know that their peers are involved. This leads me to believe that women feel they are “naughty” if they have these desires or urges and experience a sense of guilt that is all out of porportion to the actual sin.

    Is it sin? I don’t know. It depends on the person involved and what happens with them. I think it can be if it separates that person from God. But I think that this particular sin is often blown WAY out of porportion in our LDS culture and this hysteria can hurt impressionable types who do not have good, trusted counsel (i.e. parents) that they can confide in.

    Comment by anon — October 12, 2006 @ 1:28 pm

26. anon2 wrote:
    “Lisa–
    I’m not sure your analogy is a good one. Muslim women can do all of those things in private or in the company of women”

    You’ve missed the point, rather, this woman could be consumed by guilt for doing something most of us wouldn’t think twice about (wearing a swim suit on a public beach). We certainly wouldn’t think of it as a sin. Thus illustrating that guilt can be a cultural construct rather than a moral one (depending on your POV of course).

    I actually feel about Burkas much the same way I feel about Masterbation. On the one hand, I do feel it’s important to respect the ways that people choose to worship (within reason), so if a person feels that she must cover her hair, or her entire body to show respect to Allah, or if she feels she must stop masturbating, or must never kill a so much as a housefly, those are personal choices, that reflect their own understanding of God and her relationship with the creator. I can respect those choices. But that doesn’t mean I have to agree with them. I think wearing a Burka not only unnecessary but repressive and anti-body (is there a word for that? perhaps miscorporal. I like it.). I think expecting a person to stop masturbating is not only unnecessary but repressive, contrived, and also miscorporal.

    In other words I respect that it makes her feel closer to God, but I just can’t imagine that God cares. I think masturbating as natural and healthy and eating, drinking, and excercise. All of which can be misused, but none of which are inherently wrong.

    I do think there is real harm that derives from miscorporal (now I really want to know if there a real word for that) attitudes, and I think women bear the brunt of those harms. Though perhaps masturbation would be an exception. I do not think that boys are any more harmed than girls by masturbation. And I think that all of the “harms” of masturbation expressed here are in actuality the harms of miscorporal misunderstandings and the guilt and intolerance and frenzy surrounding them.

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 12, 2006 @ 1:56 pm

27. fMhLisa- Amen and Amen!!

    Comment by TracyM — October 12, 2006 @ 2:25 pm

28. But what about the blindness!?

    Comment by Kaimi — October 12, 2006 @ 2:25 pm

29. The Church should take responsibility for past and present teachings that masturbation is against the law of chastity. If it is, indeed, then God is a sadistic tyrant who deserves to be disobeyed.

    Comment by jj — October 12, 2006 @ 2:31 pm

30. Well you shouldn’t have been asked that question in a temple recommend interview! Your bishop was out of line. You should be asked if you are obeying the law of chastity. Period. Any other ‘probing’ into the details is not the job of the ecclesiastical leader.

    Actually, I’d say helping sinners come to repentance is exactly what a bishop is called to do. Moreover, if someone misunderstands a commandment, they can’t obey it, and part of a bishop’s job is to make sure that his congregation knows what the commandments are.

    In other words I respect that it makes her feel closer to God, but I just can’t imagine that God cares.

    Are our prophets incorrect then? What if fornication made her feel closer to God? Or stealing? Do good feelings always extenuate otherwise prohibited behavior? How do you know God doesn’t care? Are all the commandments we can do all by ourselves therefore permissible because they have less of a chance of hurting other peope? That runs contrary to the way I read the scriptures, but I’m willing to change my mind if you can point me to some authority besides Dr. Spock.

    Could the church be wrong on masturbation? Maybe. But I’d sure like to think that if I were in doubt, I’d side with the church.

    The Church should take responsibility for past and present teachings that masturbation is against the law of chastity. If it is, indeed, then God is a sadistic tyrant who deserves to be disobeyed.

    Wow. That’s bordering on blasphemy. Is the rationale that God would never ask us to do something that was really hard and seemingly reflexive? Because my understanding is that not acting on what feels reflexive is “putting off the natural man.” Or is there some special rule for masturbation under the “putting off the natural man” standard?

    Comment by jimbob — October 12, 2006 @ 3:03 pm

31. Truly, this reminds me of a girl in one of my classes which involved a frank discussion on religion and sexuality–she said, “Why wouldn’t God want me to have sex? He wants us to be happy.”

    I think this is getting completely off track. The original poster wanted not to feel alone–clearly now she shouldn’t.

    She wanted help with the problem, and she sees it as such.

    It seems to me that a lot of the issues raised re masturbation have to do with be sexually satisfied–even within marriage. Perhaps that is the problem, women are not being sexually satisfied. I am certain masturbation can lead to this problem, but also protestant thinking that sex is bad can too. Maybe it is just that women should be more frank and demanding with their husbands in finding and reaching orgasm
    But outside of marriage God has been clear that from cradle to grave sexual abstinence should be absolute–this is in all forms.

    Comment by anon2 — October 12, 2006 @ 3:12 pm

32. “It won’t undermine your possible future sexual relationships (just the opposite in my experience).”

    Puhhlease!
    This can’t be measured either way!
    If you have masturbated and then have sex–you don’t know how it would be if you hadn’t! and once you have –you can’t try not doing it.
    And you can’t take someone who has had sex w/o masturbating and then have them masturbate and have sex again, have it turn out better and chalk it up to masturbation!

    Comment by anon2 — October 12, 2006 @ 3:24 pm

33. Just to throw this out - I had a temple recommend interview two weeks ago and my stake pres. asked if I, “…obeyed the law of chastity, including fornication, masturbation, and pornography.” I was taken aback, as I’d never been asked that before in a temple recommend interview and I thought it a little strange. So it’s still happening…as recently as two weeks ago.
    I have nothing to really add to the conversation, except that when I was a teenager and stopped masturbating, I really did just decide one day to stop and never did it again. I’m kind of amazed when I look back at the amount of willpower that took. When I got married ten years later, though, I was glad I knew ‘what to do.’ However, I do think it can be learned about by reading, etc., and I’m still not sure where I stand on this issue.

    Comment by anon3 — October 12, 2006 @ 3:52 pm

34. Again, anon2 and jimbob, I’m perfectly comfortable with you disagreeing with me, I’m not actually aware that the scriptures say anything about masturbation, nor am I more than peripherally familiar with what modern prophets or church manuals say. I’m certainly open to being enlightened should you care to post something. But keep in mind that the scriptures are full of strictures that we do not feel guilty for disregarding, and even with modern prophets and church manuals, old teachings fall out of favor all the time, so the older the reference, the less likely it is to hold much offical water. Digging up old quotes condeming birth control and mixed race marriage aren’t going to change my good opinion of both. The fact is, we all weigh and interpret these things differently. I choose to weigh and interpret differently than you, I think it’s just that simple.

    I find masterbation mostly unimportant, therefore I think all the guilt and angst over it is unnecessary and harmful.

    Certainly I’m not suggesting we all engage in unbridled hedonims nor let our harmful natural instincts rule our choices. I don’t think we should eat cake six times a day if it makes us happy, I don’t think we should have sex with random people because it feels good, I don’t think we should spend millions of dollars on tacky mcmansions because it makes us feel important. Yes let’s all control our unhealthy selfish instincts. But I do not agree that (given basic moderation) masturbation is an instict that must be annihilated.

    I’m all for resisting temptation, if a behavior is harmful or selfish or sinful, or even simply immoderate. I simply disagree that mastrubation meets those criterea. You’re free to disagree.

    And anon2,
    Masterbation does not cause women to be less sexually fulfilled in marriage, the truth is actually just the opposite. There are tons of women who can not learn to be sexually fulfilled any other way. Once a woman figures it out, it’s a much easier thing to teach/share with a husband (who most often knows a lot less about it than she does).

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 12, 2006 @ 4:03 pm

35. I had a really difficult time in the beginning of my marriage because I really didn’t like sex– that’s an understatement. I hated it. Instead of masturbation, I just guided my husband more and we talked and had “sensate focus” sessions. A few weeks later, I had my first orgasm. SO– it is not necessary to masturbate to learn what your body needs to have an orgasm– even if you are having all the difficulty in the world. It takes a lot of open communication and some exploration, but masturbation isn’t necessary.

    When you are sealed in the temple, you are given the authority to perform the rites of marriage (not rights– rites) part of which is sexual intimacy. That’s what the law of chastity entails– only stimulating yourself through mutual sexual intimacy with your spouse. Before you are married it is inappropriate. In my opinion, this include masturbation, which is why it violates the law of chastity according to the church right now. Which means it’s wrong– even if it changes in the future (which I don’t think it will) it is still wrong according to the church.

    Jane/Hairfullofsecrets–
    I am glad someone linked to the 12-step program. My husband was a pornography addict (I know it’s not the same– hang on, I’m getting to the point) and these meetings were the only thing that has helped him truly overcome his addiction. They have separate meetings for men and women and I would go to the women’s meeting to gain support from other wives of addicts. However, there were all sorts of women there who had other addictions too– drug addicts, alcoholics, sex addicts, co-dependents, etc. So, I agree– you should go to those meetings. They are so helpful. And I think the workbook is really, really great. If you feel like you are addicted, the workbook helps you overcome addictive behaviors– it doesn’t have to be pornography even though that is the most common. I went through the steps just to help myself be closer to God– so really anyone can benefit from it.

    I also want to echo some of the other posts– the only way you can overcome this is to realize it’s okay! Once you can accept yourself and stop feeling so horrible, you’ll be able to feel God’s love for you. He doesn’t want you to feel so miserable. I know that’s a lot easier said than done, but it’s impossible to make any progress when you are caught in a guilt cycle. It will be okay!

    Comment by anon just for now — October 12, 2006 @ 4:32 pm

36. Anon2,
    I just read your #32.

    I suppose I was a bit too veiled in my last comment, trying to be sophisticated about all this sex talk and all, but by “sexually fulfilled” what I really meant was “reach orgasm”. Which is something that can be measured, and has been quite sucessfully. (Although, In truth some people can be sexually fulfilled without orgasm and some people can reach orgasm without being sexually fulfilled. So I suppose it is good to be specific.) But from everything I’ve read, and from all the sex talks I’ve had with women (and I probably have them a lot more than the average person, I think I must put off a talk to me about sex vibe), the fact is that reaching orgasm is almost impossible for a lot of women without first learning to self-stimulate.

    As far as the idea that masterbation might somehow make a first sexual encounter with your husband more/less fullfilling is ways other than orgasm . . . I suppose that could be measured too. I wonder if it ever has been. That would certainly be interesting reading.

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 12, 2006 @ 4:34 pm

37. fmhLisa,

    In the sex thread I was kicked off of in February here on FMH, there were at least a dozen citations found in currently published materials by the Church or fairly contemporary prophets specifically speaking out against masturbation. (See this thread at comment 331, for example: http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=490#more-490)

    Assuming those sources are correct, I would tend to agree with you that it probably is a lesser sin. But I don’t think that makes it anything less than a sin, so I think telling people it’s not is more than a little reckless. Putting it in perspective might be useful, as some commenters have said their bishops did. But just dismissing it altogether as sinful (in your comment 1, for example) is going well beyond that.

    I’ll stop commenting now, as this is a thread jack, and you and I danced this exact dance in February, in some places word for word. I have no intrinsic need to repeat it.

    Comment by jimbob — October 12, 2006 @ 4:39 pm

38. I obviously have too much time on my hands today, dh took the kids! The kitchen is clean! I should probably be reading (speaking of God requiring monogamy) In Sacred Loneliness! Just. One. More. Comment.

    Anyhow, just for now,
    I’m glad it all worked out for you, but you shouldn’t make normative assumptions based on your own experience. I’ve known women who worked on becoming orgasmic for YEARs, so its nice that it worked out for you and dh in a couple of weeks, but hardly indicative that what worked out for you will work for everyone. OTOH, I have no problem with someone who truly thinks masterbation is taboo to try to work eveything out with ones spouse, it certainly can be more fun that way (depending on the spouse).

    And again, we obviously view weigh and interpret chastity differently. I’m okay with that.

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 12, 2006 @ 4:47 pm

39. For those who think there’s no harm in it though, I have to object. Strongly. Sex is not something instinctive in primates (which is, scientifically, what we count as) but something learned.

    That is a pretty weird comment…
    My one year old boy started touching his penis because (I imagine) It Felt Good. He learned that by one day reaching down and experiencing a pleasurable feeling, so he did it again and again. Now this did not lead to ejaculation, but one day it will. The act of sexual intercourse may be a learned behavior, but self stimulation, well, I would think that is discovered naturally.

    But isn’t one of the principles of the gospel “overcoming the natural man”? I have a very hard time with this aspect of the gospel in practice. In theory it is beautiful, and I tottally see the point. I would love to leave my base instincts aside and follow a truly and pure higher purpose (Is that enlightenment/perfection?) So (threadjack alert, but relevent to the topic…) Can the natural man (us) overcome the “Natural Man”?

    Comment by just call me Cassandra... — October 12, 2006 @ 5:06 pm

40. I didn’t mean that what happened for me would work for anyone, I meant more that I don’t think it’s right to say “a woman who can’t enjoy sex just needs to explore her own body through masturbation.” That may be true for some, but that doesn’t mean masturbation is the only way to achieve orgasm or the only way to enhance your sexual relationship.

    Really I would never say, “well, you obviously didn’t try hard enough!”

    Comment by anon just for now — October 12, 2006 @ 5:30 pm

41. At some point well into our marriage, my wife and I decided that the details of our sexual intimacy, individually and collectively, were no one else’s business. We also felt it problematic that women had to go through the additional humiliation of confessing to a authority figure of the opposite sex. We’ve also told our children that they should not respond to invasive questions about their sexuality even in ecclesiastical interviews (while they are minors).

    I wholeheartedly agree with fMhLisa. This is a guilt (and a control) issue. Especially for women in our larger society (many of whom struggle with reaching orgasm), masturbation is about loving and respecting one’s self and becoming aware of one’s body. It’s a terrible shame when sexually-repressive cultures, institutions and individuals use their power and influence to inhibit someone else’s pleasure. It’s especially egregious when it is men who are stepping in to control female sexuality.

    Comment by John Remy — October 12, 2006 @ 5:34 pm

42. Masturbation absolutely damaged intercourse for me. I read some studies a while ago about the differences between clitoral and vaginal orgasms and how masturbation affects later marital intimacies. This held true for me. I was so used to receiving almost immediate clitoral satisfaction that actual intercourse with my husband proved to be nothing physically exciting. It’s been years and I still regret ever discovering “self-discovery.”

    Comment by Karenna — October 12, 2006 @ 5:44 pm

43. (figuring your body out with your spouse is all well and good if you have one. But, I think this issue is even more important for those who are single well past their thirties. There comes a point where you NEED sexual release. Seriously.)

    I really struggled with this growing up. I would feel sooooo so guilty and it would cause me the ignore the spirit becaue i felt so unworthy. And that is exactly what satan wanted. For me to feel guilt and despair. Its hard to have faith when you are consumed by guilt. In my twenties, I found myself struggling with it again. I prayed and prayed and one day I was overcome with the feeling that it was ok. I just needed to get up and quit. period. Just stop doing it - easier said then done right? I thought about the circumstances I foudn myself in everytime I did it, and realized the similarties…. And I just avoided those times until I had broken the habit. And when I felt compelled again, I just would jump up and go do something else - sometimes I would just get up adn go to the 7/11 and get a drink or something, sometimes I’d go to the gym. Sometimes just going in another room and turning on the tv and thinking about something else helps. Not to say that its never ever happened since, but I have figured out how to not let it become a compulsion or habit like it was when I was growing up. You cannot obsess over what you did yesterday. Pray, repent, and vow to not do it today. And JUST worry about today.

    But I will say this. If I had never done that, I would not have known anything about my body. And its an understatement to say my husband knew NOTHING about my anatomy when we got married, which Im sure is fairly commen with lds guys. So, if I hadn’t been able to, uh, show him around, it could have been a big problem. And when we are talking about people who have been celibate for 30-40 years, all bets are off. I think thats a whole new world and I cannot really give advice to that, except the lame advice that controlling your sex drive is one of the things we have to learn, and if you have to control it until your 50, well…thats your cross to bear I guess. I have family members in such a predicament and all I can really say is, that sucks.

    But, that being said - I do feel I was doing something wrong by masturbating. Its not major - maybe like swearing or something? Its just, well, when I focused on the big picture things of the gospel…working on my faith and testimony and having charity and a good relationship with the Savior, well…I find those natural man sort-of bad habits I struggle with (swearing, overeating, masturbation, temper)…tend to fall away little by little. We all struggle with such things…ALL OF US, and that is why the Atonement is so amazing. We can repent of these bad habits and start over every single day. Focus on the DO’s of the gospel, and your desire/drive for the don’ts tends to subside.

    sorry for the long comment, hope it helps.

    Comment by another anon — October 12, 2006 @ 5:52 pm

44. My one year old boy started touching his penis because (I imagine) It Felt Good. He learned that by one day reaching down and experiencing a pleasurable feeling, so he did it again and again. Now this did not lead to ejaculation, but one day it will. The act of sexual intercourse may be a learned behavior, but self stimulation, well, I would think that is discovered naturally.

    While I agree that the post you responded to is odd—and goes against all scientific reason–so does your statement. Children are naturally inclined to explore and touch/pull on all their body parts–simply because they are there. It is my understanding that the hormones/nerve reaction for sexual stimulation-hence the good feelings would not be present at this young age–He is just exploring. I don’t think it has anything to do with the way it feels.

    Lisa,
    Really–I agree that we can’t say it will just work—but I still don’t think m. is the answer. I know in my own marriage it took lots of work—and insisting to my DH that really sex was no fun for me if I did not have and orgasm–and made hime work for it. I think if anything we just need to be more open about sex and that men and women both need to know how a woman’s body works to have an orgasm. It bothers me immensely that sex is so taboo that people don’t know how the female body works.

    Comment by anon2 — October 12, 2006 @ 5:53 pm

45. It’s not about repression or control, and it’s not men as a group controlling women as a group, it’s leaders ascertaining the worthiness of the men and women over whom they have stewardship. For people who believe in a loving God that gives us commandments through prophets, directives that require that we (gasp!) deny ourselves pleasure are seen as a means to greater happiness. That which some may see as repressive is actually liberating.

    Nobody has to go to the temple or participate in other church things which require a worthiness interview. If you don’t want to talk about things that Bishops ask in order to ascertain your worthiness, that’s fine. Don’t participate. But if you want to participate in ordinances or receive the priesthood or hold callings or whatever, what otherwise is only your business becomes the business of the Church.

    Comment by Tom — October 12, 2006 @ 5:54 pm

46. Another opportunity to investigate an LDS addiction/recovery 12-step program is http://www.heart-t-heart.org. They may have a local branch near you OR they conduct sessions online for any compulsive behavior including perfectionism, eating disorders, nail-biting, etc. Some stakes sponsor the Heart-t-Heart program instead of the Provident Living one (or maybe they are the same?). The literature used is the same book mentioned earlier–”He Did Deliver Me From Bondage”–plus the codependency workbook by Pia Mellody called “Breaking Free”.

    Comment by Carol — October 12, 2006 @ 6:19 pm

47. The guilt you feel will do real damage, unlike the masturbation itself. Lose the guilt, and all will be well with you again. What Lisa said.

    And once you lose the guilt, you actually will find you don’t need to do it as often as you once did. It’s called maturity.

    Comment by D. Fletcher — October 12, 2006 @ 6:45 pm

48. Anon2 and Call Me Cassandra:
    I don’t understand why that comment is so odd to you. It’s been shown, time and time again, that if a primate is raised in isolation from others of its kind, when they are re-introduced to that society they have no idea how to “go about” things. That’s even part of the problem for pandas, as I understand it (not that they’re primates). Self-stimulation may be easy enough to figure out (especially for males) but actual intercourse is not.

    For the record, my husband was not a virgin when we married and I had tried masturbating as a young woman and neither fact has helped at all. And while my husband is not addicted to masturbating I still blame its ease for him as the reason behind his definition of sex equalling a quickie. He’s a good man and he tries to be considerate of my needs but when years of practice have taught you that orgasm is only moments away, it’s very hard to unlearn that.

    But this is a thread for hairfullofsecret’s question so I’ll stop there.

    Comment by Eh? Nony Mouse — October 12, 2006 @ 6:48 pm

49. ok nony mouse–I misunderstood. Intercourse is taught—it’s true they have seen this with all kinds of animals who didn’t know how to reproduce (ie recently pandas–played a movie of pandas mating to teach them)
    I thought you meant you couldn’t figure out self stimulation–I think that could happen quiet by accident, especially if you are a guy

    Comment by anon2 — October 12, 2006 @ 6:56 pm

50. Such strong opinions supported by so little knowledge in this thread, it’s rather disappointing. There’s little more here than a string of subjective anecdotes without a teaspoon of substantiated science or even authority among them. Well, at least you don’t have to feel alone, Hairfull.

    Also, Lisa, it will sound less like you know you’re wrong and are defensive about it if you use fewer “and I really don’t care what anyone else thinks” phrases in your initial post! It actually made me laugh.

    Comment by Innocentbystander — October 12, 2006 @ 7:37 pm

51. I’m sure we’ll have all kinds of people commenting on how masturbating ruined their sex lives or their marriage or whatever. And perhaps this is true for them, but it isn’t necessary nor even normative.

    I have a huge problem with assigning a particular philosophy regarding this issue to be “normative.” While there are indeed some studies that suggest masturbation is healthy, there are others that find it is NOT. In particular, there’s a body of literature surrounding the issue of “transference,” that there are women who learn to masturbate, but then find they can only have an orgasm through self-stimulation and not with their husband….and so maybe couples therapy, teaching them stimulation together, would be a better approach. And I should hasten that these are not just LDS therapists, we’re talking peer-reviewed stuff.

    There’s also new research about the connection between women and depression and masturbation, which has barely started to be explored.

    So please let’s not declare something to be “normative” just because it worked for you.

    I am happy to post references, but it seems not worth engaging in dueling references, since I am perfectly willing to concede that many sex therapists promote masturbation as healthy as helpful. It’s just that a significant percentage do NOT recommend that approach as most helpful for a women to achieve optimal sexual satisfaction in marriage.

    (And frankly, given how much sex-related crap is out in the world, I don’t know why latter-day saints would care what the world considers “normative.”)

    Comment by Naismith — October 12, 2006 @ 7:51 pm

52. To the general discussion I’d say that there is a certain threshold of awareness that too many women are afraid to cross for fear of it being masturbation. My mom considered wearing tampons masturbation, and I’m pretty sure she would have frowned on taking a mirror and finding out what things actually look like- (something I didn’t even do until after I had a baby.). So I would definitely agree that the fear and guilt associated with private parts and anything that is remotely close to self-stimulation should go out the window– especially for girls because familiarity with our privates isn’t something that ‘just happens.’ As to whether the blanket discouragement should stay or go- I’m not certain. I tend to think that it should still be discouraged because avoiding the risk of addiction is probably worth it.

    To Jane: the only I can think that might help is to cut your popular media consumption, TV, movies, novels, and especially magazines. I read/watch practically none of those things, and have noticed that I’m much more excitable after seeing a movie or reading a love story than I am otherwise. (And these are wholesome things- things I’d recommend to my mom) Obvioulsy your mileage may vary, but it might be worth a try.

    Comment by Starfoxy — October 12, 2006 @ 9:19 pm

53. Where was this discussion 15 years ago? I was plagued horribly with depression & masturbated in my 20’s. I felt super shame and guilt and managed to go to my bishop in a college ward. He looked at me strangely and in the end I felt even more ashamed. I stopped attending church but asked one of the FHE guys for a blessing one time. Felt nothing. I wanted to seriously commit suicide and would have had I had the strength. I later married and now have 3 boys to raise. Something has to change in the way we teach our children about sex and themselves, especially when m. is something everyone will/has done. Are we all meant to feel this kind of shame so we will humble ourselves? Somehow it just seems wrong. I’m not sure how to teach my sons who no doubtedly will m. I couldn’t enjoy sex for years because of all the “it’s bad” I had somehow learned in my years of seminary & YW. I just don’t see a loving God in all of this.

    Comment by anonamom — October 12, 2006 @ 9:28 pm

54. Again, anon2 and billybob, I’m perfectly comfortable with you disagreeing with me, I’m not actually aware that the scriptures say anything about masturbation, nor am I more than peripherally familiar with what modern prophets or church manuals say. I’m certainly open to being enlightened should you care to post something.

    Well, in recent years, the church has mostly gotten rid of the term “masturbation” because research showed that young people did not understand what was being discussed. Instead, the behavior is described in simple terms.

    In the reference guide “True to the Faith,” published in 2004 and available at http://www.lds.org/languages/youthmaterials/trueToThefaith/TrueFaith_000.pdf

    “Determine now that you will never do anything outside of marriage to arouse the powerful emotions that must be expressed only in marriage. Do not arouse those emotions in another person’s body or in your own body.”

    The new “For the Strength of Youth” pamphlet uses similar terminology, although I seem to recall an earlier version using the m-word. I don’t think the church stand about the sinfulness has changed, just that the manuals have been better pre-tested and using techniques for low-literacy adaptation.

    “A Parent’s Guide,” which is written for parents to teach their chidlren at various ages says this in the chapter for adolescents from 12-18 years: “masturbation is considered by many in the world to be the harmless expression of an instinctive sex drive. Teach your children that the prophets have condemned it as a sin throughout the ages and that they can choose not to do it. Throughout childhood, boys and girls have touched their own genitals frequently to wash and to dress. This is a behavior that usually has the same meaning as keeping one’s feet warm in the winter, enjoying a swim on a hot day, or scratching an itch. We ought to be friendly to our bodies and appreciate the body’s marvelous range of senses. This innocent touching is not the kind of behavior warned against by prophets through the ages. The sin of masturbation occurs when a person stimulates his or her own sex organs for the purpose of sexual arousal. It is a perversion of the body’s passions. When we pervert these passions and intentionally use them for selfish, immoral purposes, we become carnal.”

    Comment by Naismith — October 12, 2006 @ 10:16 pm

55. Whoa! Don’t jump to conclusion that everyone has/ will masturbate. Although a large percentage will–it does not mean all will.

    Comment by anon2 — October 12, 2006 @ 10:28 pm

56. Re 52, girls being familiar with their bodies: I’ve had 2 babies, 1 miscarriage/d&c and I still don’t know what I look like down there–too weird & embarrassing.

    possible TMI follows

    I asked dh what he thought of me touching myself, and he was all for it. He said it would really arouse him if I did while he was watching. I had a feel, and everything was mushy. I couldn’t get anywhere close to making it feel like when he does it. After he took over I orgasmed within a minute, with 5 more to follow. In some ways I feel strange that he knows my body better than I do.

    I need to improve in knowing my body. Girls in general need encouragement in that area. I just don’t know how you could explore and learn very much without wanting to masturbate and making it a habit.

    Comment by you don't wanna know — October 12, 2006 @ 10:29 pm

57. Yes–definately too shy about our bodies.

    Comment by anon2 — October 12, 2006 @ 10:40 pm

58. I’m actually surprised by many of the enlightened responses here. It is also interesting that many of those who are “for” masturbation (or at least against the guilt) are using their names or aliases, and those that are “against” masturbation are hiding behind anonymity. For some reason I thought it would be the other way around.

    In any case, fmhLisa, John Remy, Lindsay, and others have basically said what I would say which is, tell your Bishop to mind his own business and let your mind/spirit/heart be your guide. Read some books on the subject. Education is the best way to overcome ignorance and superstition. Also, if you are interested, there are some great “Vagina Monologues” type Sunstone Symposium sessions you can download for free over at http://sunstoneonline.com that feature many intelligent women talking openly (and respectfully) about their sexuality. Many of the talks are about masturbation, and other sexual issues related to Mormon women. Very interesting and enlightening.

    Check out: “SL01172, Sacred Spaces: Mormon Women’s Faith and Sexuality” from the Salt Lake City Symposium in 2001. I think there was another one another year as well.

    Comment by Matt Thurston — October 12, 2006 @ 11:15 pm

59. Jane,
    Guilt is not necessarily a bad thing. If it comes in the form of godly sorry, it can help us make changes that will bring us closer to the Lord. On the other hand, feeling awful about ourselves and like there is no hope is not of the Lord. Godly sorrow motivates. The adversary’s form of guilt paralyzes.

    I agree with those few who have talked about the Church’s standards. They are there for a reason. This is something that can be addictive. You will be happier if you move toward overcoming this. But realize God’s love and desire to help, and don’t let the adversary tell you that you can’t do it, or that it doesn’t matter, or that YOU don’t matter. You can do it and it does matter, and most importantly, YOU matter to God. and so does your happiness. Let Him help you. You can do it! Always remember His love as you work toward your goal.
    hugs to you!

    Comment by amousynon — October 12, 2006 @ 11:30 pm

60. jimbob, you are wrong about what is okay for a bishop or stake president to ask. There are protocols for a temple reccommend interview. Maybe these have changed, I grant you they could have in the past two years, but I know that it is not the place of a lay clergy to go outside of the boundaries they have been given (especially with members of the opposite sex-a potentially dicey situation considering the subject matter). In fact, I know of one Bishop who regularly did “probe” and ask questions that went outside the boundaries during his service who was chastised and removed from his calling. There is such a thing as ecclesiastical abuse and this can start from “innocent” probing to “help” those in trouble. Just because someone is serving in a calling doesn’t necessarily mean they are always inspired or that they have the right to go outside prescribed boundaries (put in place to protect both the interviewer and interviewee).

    Luckily we all have the Holy Ghost and many of us are blessed with discernment. Personally, with something of this nature, I hope my own teenage daughter would come to me and not go to a middle aged man who doesn’t know her. Only the Lord can forgive us and help us change. It is great when a bishop can help in this process but, last time I checked, we don’t believe his sanction is necessary for true repentence to have ocurred. True repentence is turning back to the light and living fully for God. Like another poster said-only Godly sorrow can bring us to that point. Maybe a bishop can help on this journey and maybe he cannot.

    BTW-I have never been asked specific questions about the Law of Chastity in a temple reccommend interview and would be very surprised if I was. However, when I was in the MTC though they did come into our district and read off a laundry list of sins that we should talk to the Branch President about. Masturbation was among them. But, again, they never asked specific questions in our interviews. I think this is a wise practice. True repentence needs to come from the individual and their wish to become clean-not ferreted out in an inquisitorial style.

    Comment by Another Anonymous — October 13, 2006 @ 1:28 am

61. Whether or not the “bishop asks” or “is supposed to ask” a specific question related to the Law of Chastity, if masturbation is against the Law of Chastity, an honest person would say “no” if asked whether s/he keeps the Law of Chastity. A liar would say “yes.”

    Simple as that.

    The Church teaches—sometimes forces—people to lie, especially singles and older singles who have no other option for sexual release but masturbation.

    Comment by Velma — October 13, 2006 @ 5:52 am

62. Velma, nobody is forced to lie.

    Matt, “enlightened” is in the eye of the beholder. Some would consider your position the less enlightened one.

    Comment by Tom — October 13, 2006 @ 6:35 am

63. I really don’t know what I think about this whole subject, but here are a couple of other thoughts:

    From Wickipeda:
    

    The electrically-powered vibrator was invented in the 1880s by doctors, who had been ostensibly treating women for “hysteria” for centuries by performing what we would recognise as masturbation.[1] At the time, however, not only did doctors regard the “vulvular stimulation” required as having nothing to do with sex, they reportedly found it time-consuming and hard work. The vibrator got the job done more quickly and without such efforts, and as such was extremely popular with doctors. Home versions began to appear soon after and became equally popular, with adverts in places like Needlecraft, Woman’s Home Companion, Modern Priscilla and the Sears, Roebuck catalog. These disappeared in the 1920s, apparently because their appearance in pornography made it no longer tenable for polite society to avoid the sexual connotations of the devices.

    And here is a longer article on the history of the vibrator.

    IOW, prior to the 1920’s Masturbation for women seems to have been an oxymoron.

    And finally — I’ve heard & read things in the church to the effect that ‘masturbation really isn’t necessary because our bodies have a ‘natural release system’ , etc. etc. Obviously they are talking about the men here: recognizing a need for this release/natural release system/no guilt for ‘wet dreams’. These assumptions are pretty sexist, IMO. No one thinks [anymore] of those who don’t have a ‘natural release system’ e.g. the ‘hysterical’ women . . .

    NO

    Comment by Not Ophelia — October 13, 2006 @ 7:09 am

64. Karenna,
    I don’t think you should jump to conclusions about orgasm in your marrriage and masturbation—It is quite normal for women to only orgasm with clitoral stimulation regardless–that is just how the female anatomy works.

    Matt Thurston–
    The only reason I am writing anon is because I have mentioned family members.

    All,
    I really do think women perhaps turn to m. after marriage because DHs don’t have a clue- lack of education and lack of openness in marriage about sex

    Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 7:57 am

65. I really do think women perhaps turn to m. after marriage because DHs don’t have a clue- lack of education and lack of openness in marriage about sex

    The sad thing is, this could be so easily fixed. Before my kids get married I plan on making sure they are more educated than I was, whether that involves books, discussion, or crude drawings on the back of Sacrament meeting programs.

    Comment by jjohnsen — October 13, 2006 @ 9:26 am

66. …tell your Bishop to mind his own business and let your mind/spirit/heart be your guide.

    jimbob, you are wrong about what is okay for a bishop or stake president to ask. There are protocols for a temple reccommend interview. Maybe these have changed, I grant you they could have in the past two years, but I know that it is not the place of a lay clergy to go outside of the boundaries they have been given (especially with members of the opposite sex-a potentially dicey situation considering the subject matter). In fact, I know of one Bishop who regularly did “probe” and ask questions that went outside the boundaries during his service who was chastised and removed from his calling. There is such a thing as ecclesiastical abuse and this can start from “innocent” probing to “help” those in trouble. Just because someone is serving in a calling doesn’t necessarily mean they are always inspired or that they have the right to go outside prescribed boundaries (put in place to protect both the interviewer and interviewee).

    Let me state this simply. A bishop is called to call others to repentance. Moreover, when giving an interview, it is the bishop’s job to make sure that someone doesn’t enter the temple (get a calling, receive the priesthood, etc.) unworthily. One commandment that the Church believes should be confessed before you can enter the temple (get a calling, receive the priesthood, etc.) is masturbation. Should the bishop ask about this in an interview, he is doing his job. If you don’t want to talk about it–if you think it’s none of his business–then don’t get a recommend (accept a calling, recieve the priesthood). A bishop cannot force you to be interviewed by him.

    I think some of the confusion surrounding this issue is that occasionally–in the two bishoprics I’ve served in–a letter would come from SLC saying not to add on requirements, such as a bishop interpreting the WoW as also banning Cokes and asking specifically about that in the interview. Or adding 100% HT or VT to the list. But the Church’s stance on masturbation is fairly clear, as per commment 54. And believe me, 99% of bishops believe that they are asking you about masturbation when they ask you about chastity.

    Anecdotally, I have a brother who sees the commandments as guidelines only. For years, he both went to church and slept with various women, but he never saw that as any of the church’s business. Nonetheless, when there was a sealing to be at, he’d go and get a recommend. I asked him once about how he got around chastity and he told me that he’s never broken the law of chastity because his understanding of the term is different from the Church’s. You see, he’s always really loved the women he’s slept with, and who is the church to prohibit love?

    My question to you is this: would a bishop be justified in issuing a recommend if he knew about my brother’s daliances, but took my brother’s answer as okay under the rationale that definitions of the law of chastity should be left to the individual member? Without resorting to the obvious differences between masturbation and fornication, and assuming for a minute that the Church is right about masturbation, please explain to me how a bishop is out of line in one, but not the other?

    Comment by jimbob — October 13, 2006 @ 9:27 am

67. Jane: I am a Bishop in a single adult ward. I am far from an expert in these matters, but I do have some experience counseling people in your situation. Since I don’t you personally, I will tell you some of the things I often tell individuals who come to see me about this issue.

    First, look inside yourself. What kind of person are you? Are you a good sister, daughter and friend? Do you care about other people? I know you could be better, but you really are a good person aren’t you? You love God, you want to do right and you have a good heart. Now, don’t you think that God knows that about you? He knows your heart, he loves you and he understands your struggles. So isn’t now a good time to let go of that guilt? Your failings, weaknesses and bad habits do not define you, and they do not define your relationship with God. Your good heart and your good desires do. That is who you really are. God knows that. That is how he sees you. He loves and accepts you just the way you are. So now is a good time to let go of those feelings of guilt. They will only weigh you down and contribute to the very problem you are trying to solve.

    Now, consider this issue in that context. Is this a habit that has become a consuming addiction to the point that it is interfering with your normal life and relationships? Or is it more sporadic, with the urge coming on you periodically? Or is it even more occasional? If this has become an addiction for you, I suggest you get professional counseling. That is symptomatic of something else in your life or emotional make up.

    It may well be that the feelings of guilt are interfering with your life and spiritual well being more than the masturbation is. That is not unusual. I suspect that you may have some unhealthy attitudes about your own sexuality. One reason I suspect this is your statement that you hate that vile word. Sometimes those unhealthy, repressed feelings can contribute to an unhealthy preoccupation with masturbation or pornography (at least in males). You may want to consider whether this is an issue for you. But do not underestimate the damage that excess, misplaced guilt and unhealthy attitudes can do. These urges are God given. They are normal. Part of learning to control them is accepting them for what they are. I don’t know you well enough to know whether this is an issue for you, but it often is an issue.

    Once you accept yourself and your sexuality, then you can better control it. You will find it more difficult to control urges when you are motivated by the feelings of guilt that come from not measuring up to an externally imposed standard. You should decide what your values should be. You decide what is a healthy expression of your sexuality and what is not. And then act in accordance with those internalized values. Quit trying to measure up to some other standard. When you do that, you will find greater power and self discipline. We are concerned here with you and your feelings about yourself and your relationship with God. If you see masturbation as hurting you and your relationships, then you will have greater power to stop. But if your efforts to cease the practice are really just an effort to assuage your guilt by complying with the standards imposed by the church, you will probably fail, and drive yourself crazy in the process.

    Now, reread my second paragraph. Go look yourself in the mirror, and say “Jane, (or you could use your real name if you prefer!), you are a really good person. You have a good heart. I am proud of you.”

    Comment by Bishop — October 13, 2006 @ 9:36 am

68. N.O. (#63):

    Did you know one glass of wine a day is quite healthy for your heart? I’ll bet I could find a wikipedia article on that too. And did you know that if you fast, you’ll likely be hungry, maybe even painfully so?

    Should I infer from your post that we only obey the commandments that don’t require some physical sacrifice?

    Comment by jimbob — October 13, 2006 @ 9:44 am

69. I was very sexually active from about 16 to 20, until I met my now husband. I have not really ever, to many peoples surprise, felt EXTREME guilt for the sex I had as a teenager.
    I did however surprise myself in the months before my wedding. I had masterbated as a teenager in hopes of finally orgasming. (I still have never orgasmed). My husband was the first mormon I had dated. We were getting married in the temple and we obviously couldn’t have sex before hand. The temptation is something I never avoided and it was new to me to not just have sex. I found myself m. after my then fiance left my apartment, and I am almost convinced that if I hadn’t done so… we might not have been married in the temple.
    The part that suprised me was this, I have never felt so much guilt about touching myself. I’ve never cried so hard as I did after I would m. I hated that I was so upset and I stopped doing it. I made a promise that I would turn off the sexual feelings and I have been married for almost a year now- those feelings still haven’t come back. I am not against m. I am so against the guilt that I felt that made me want to avoid sexual arousal at all. I love my husband but I am still not able to get as turned on as I was when we were dating and I was m.
    I’m now afraid to m. again for fear it will make it worse and I’m angry! I wish almost that I had never come back to the church for all the pain that has come with it. However, I believe it’s true. However, I also agree with others that our level righteousness is between God and oursleves.

    *just my two cents… it’s not supported by fact #50 innocentbystander, but it’s what happened with me.

    Comment by >>> — October 13, 2006 @ 10:21 am

70. Should the bishop ask about this in an interview, he is doing his job.

    Jimbob: you are flatly wrong about this. In a temple recommend interview, the bishop is instructed to ask certain questions. He is also instructed not to extemporize. In addition to instructions in the Handbook and periodic reminders via letter from the First Presidency, I have personally sat in training meetings where apostles have instructed bishops and stake presidents NOT to start adding on to the recommend questions, and most especially NOT to start adding on to the chastity question in the way that you claim is appropriate.

    The question is, “Do you obey the law of chastity?” not “Do you obey the law of chastity with regard to pedophilia, bestiality, autoerotic asphyxiation, masturbation, and polyamory?”; just as the question is “Are you a full tithe payer?” not “Are you a full tithe payer with regard to your capital gains, accrued interest, fringe benefits, self-employment income, and 401(k) annuities?”

    The questions are phrased generally for very good reasons, and those purposes are frustrated when Bishop is deviates from what he has been given by the First Presidency. The member is to report their worthiness and stewardship to the Lord’s representative. It is an interview, not an inquisition.

    Comment by obi-wan — October 13, 2006 @ 10:28 am

71. Tom (#62):

    Enlightenment will always be in the eye of the beholder. It is amazing how many people thought Galileo was unenligtened when he had the temerity to suggest that the Earth was not the center of the universe.

    anonamom (#53):

    Thank you for sharing this story. This level of guilt/depression due to masturbation is fairly common for boys. I wonder how common it is for girls? I’ve thought about sharing my own sometimes comic, sometimes disturbing experiences with masturbation in a blog post. Today, its neither here nor there, but I wonder about what to teach my kids.

    Kareena (#42):

    I agree with anon2’s advice at #64. The fact that you can achieve orgasm via clitoral stimulation is something to celebrate, not feel guilty about. Be grateful, and take advantage of this gift. If you or your husband are not manually stimulating this area during intercourse, then you are both being cheated of a wonderful loving/exciting/bonding experience. It is incredibly ironic that you are unfulfilled by intercourse when fulfillment is literally “within reach.”

    To no one in particular…

    This discussion reminds me of a good friend (and former bishop) and his wife who saw a therapist due to sexual problems in their marriage. The therapist once mentioned to my bishop friend offhand in the hallway following a session that Mormons, as a group, seemed to have more sexual problems than any other religious demographic she had counselled.

    Comment by Matt Thurston — October 13, 2006 @ 10:59 am

72. Incidentally, I would agree with obi-wan. I have received very clear instructions not to deviate from or expand upon the temple recommend questions as they are written.

    Comment by Bishop — October 13, 2006 @ 11:01 am

73. jjohnson,
    AMEN! and Hallelujah!

    Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 11:07 am

74. >>> (#68):

    What does this mean: “I’m now afraid to m. again for fear it will make it worse and I’m angry!”

    What will be worse? Your guilt? Your sex life with your husband?

    Your story saddens me. It is one thing to feel guilt for masturbation when you are single (I disagree of course, but I realize that the Church teaches this), but when you are married?!? If masturbation gives you pleasure, why don’t you talk about it with your husband? You could do it together, to each other… you are married, pretty much “anything goes,” provided, of course, you both agree and neither of you are threatened, hurt, uncomfortable, etc.

    Aaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!

    Comment by Matt Thurston — October 13, 2006 @ 11:09 am

75. #67
    

    Should I infer from your post that we only obey the commandments that don’t require some physical sacrifice?

    No, you should infer from my post what I said in my post: that sexuality and masturbation for women have been moving targets over the years. And that labeling has a lot to do with what is and isn’t allowed. And that some justifications as to why it [masturbation] isn’t necessary come off as sexist.

    I mentioned that I don’t know what I think of the whole thing. Mostly I agree that it isn’t the ‘next to murder’ hysteria I used to hear as a youth [which was, BTW, backed by the earlier writings of our then current prophet] And that that way of looking at it is totally, absolutely and utterly counterproductive.

    FYI — You got banned the last time because we interpretted your continued obtuseness as deliberate, troll-like behavior. I really don’t know how to interpret this new round. Obtuseness? Inability-to-see-another’s-point-of-viewishness? Trollishness? Genuine-desire-for-dialogueishness?

    You tell me.

    NO

    Comment by Not Ophelia — October 13, 2006 @ 11:25 am

76. Matt Thurston, the Galileo of masturbation!

    Comment by Tom — October 13, 2006 @ 11:51 am

77. Anonymous male commenter here, with a serious question.

    So I’ve had, um, intermittent experience with the subject of the post. And in my experience (and I think this is the norm for men), it’s not just about physical self-stimulation. There’s also an element of visualization and imagination involved. This may be supplied in different ways. It may be through actual looking at pictures and such. It may be through simply imagining the cute neighbor. But in any case, there’s more to masturbation than simply self-touching.

    I’m no expert on the topic, but I think that this is more or less normal for men. I’m less certain about whether it’s normal for women. (Are women satisfied by simlpe self-touching, or is mental stimulation needed too? I’m really unsure on that.)

    My question for the various master-of-your-own-domain advocates on this thread (that would be at the very least Lisa, Matt, John, a few anons, Lindsay, who else?) is whether this changes the analysis. Is the argument being made here, that self-touching is okay? Is it that self-touching plus some mental stimulation (porn or fantasizing) is okay?

    It seems to me that it’s easy to argue that simple self-touching is okay. It may be harder to argue that fantasizing about the neighbor, or looking at porn, is okay. Is that really the argument being made here? I mean, I understand, it’s an argument I’ve made to myself more than once. But I also think that when you add mental participation, it may become more objectionable to a lot of people (such as my own wife!).

    Comment by Definitely definitely anonymous — October 13, 2006 @ 11:56 am

78. Tom, I love it!!! Ha! Please put this on my tombstone!!!

    Comment by Matt Thurston — October 13, 2006 @ 12:06 pm

79. I’m not a bad person, really. I just like to play with my telescope every once in a while.

    Comment by Galileo — October 13, 2006 @ 12:13 pm

80. Not Ophelia’s #75 should actually refer to #68, not #67. The advice by “Bishop” in #67 is actually pretty good. If he represented the standard of all Mormon Bishops I’d feel good about my kids talking to their Bishop about issues involving guilt. Well said, Bishop…

    “You decide what is a healthy expression of your sexuality and what is not. And then act in accordance with those internalized values. Quit trying to measure up to some other standard.”

    Comment by Matt Thurston — October 13, 2006 @ 12:14 pm

81. First of all, according to the Handbook of Instruction, The Miracle of Forgiveness, and numerous conference talks, you must only confess sins that could problematize your membership in the church.

    Second, it’s just not a big deal. I can understand if you feel like you shouldn’t do it on the same day you’re visiting the temple. But otherwise, fmhLisa is right on. You shouldn’t consider masturbation to be any worse than (say) playing face cards.

    Comment by DKL — October 13, 2006 @ 12:14 pm

82. Galileo,

    I’ve enjoyed our relationship over the years. You’ve pointed me in directions no one else could have. But when I get that “look,” you know, the one that screams “I’m tired, not tonight,” could you maybe go play with some of your other instruments instead?

    Thanks,

    Your powerful and usually reliable telescope

    Comment by Galileo's Telescope — October 13, 2006 @ 12:19 pm

83. Matt Thurston: All of the above. I’m afraid that I will still feel guilt… and this was guilt and pain to a level I never even felt for the premarital sex. Guilt and tears are a big mood killer! I don’t want to feel guilty for it because I pretty much agree with what has been said along the lines that it’s ok in moderation.

    So for now… I’m just trying to get those feelings back that I had when we were engaged.

    Comment by >>> — October 13, 2006 @ 12:41 pm

84. FYI — You got banned the last time because we interpretted your continued obtuseness as deliberate, troll-like behavior. I really don’t know how to interpret this new round. Obtuseness? Inability-to-see-another’s-point-of-viewishness? Trollishness? Genuine-desire-for-dialogueishness?

    You tell me.

    IThat’s okay. I’ll leave voluntarily. Being here is just not all that big a deal for me. I do think it may be time, however, to turn all those hyphenated adjectives on yourselves to see that maybe this site doesn’t deal with dissent from the party line very well. My experience here is that those who agree with your brand of liberal mormonism (which I’m not criticizing per se)–and other miscellaneous sycophants–are lauded while those who lean even slightly to a conservative-church view are not well tolerated. But if “obtuseness” of the writer is how you choose to describe it, more power to you. It’s your blog. It just seems like a really easy way to avoid the difficult questions, or at least never have them come up. (By the way, what does someone have to do to be obtuse? Would it be making fun of someone’s name on purpose, like in #34? But permabloggers don’t get chided, do they?)

    Incidentally, I would agree with obi-wan. I have received very clear instructions not to deviate from or expand upon the temple recommend questions as they are written.
    

    Bishop (#72): would you give a recommend to someone who said to you in an interview, “Yes, I do live the law of chastity. I masturbate, but that isn’t contrary to the law of chastity.” Or, similarly, would you give a recommend to someone you knew to be unabashedly masturbating, but said that he or she was living the law of chastity? What if they asked you beforehand whether masturbation was contrary to the law of chastity? Would you give a recommend to someone you knew to be drinking on a regular basis if they still said they live the WoW? I guess I’m asking at what point you think a member’s “interpretation” of the commandment crosses the line into unacceptability. Does it ever?

    Comment by jimbob — October 13, 2006 @ 12:56 pm

85. I have to wonder about Galileo’s wife and orgasms–I admit everyone is different, but if I knew I was about to have a great orgasm, there is no way I would say no, or I’m too tired. But if DH was going to be lazy–yah, then I’ll be lazy too.

    Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 1:40 pm

86. FYI - the temple recommend interviews HAVE changed in the past year or so (per SL) to be more specific on certain questions. Mostly regarding physical abuse in the family, but also regarding chastity due to the Church’s focus on the internet pornography explosion. This per my last two bishops when I asked why the questions had changed.

    Also, I do think that there is a difference in masterbation between men and women mainly because the motivation behind masterbation is often different for each. Funny that I feel no guilt for “exploring” on my part (after marriage to figure myself out), but would be totally unnerved (and would be really upset if he continued on a regular basis) if I found my husband doing it.

    However, if I were to masterbate regularly for the sole purpose of self-gratification, I would definitely feel guilty. Mostly because I believe part of the earth experience is to learn control our lusts and not let them control us, and masterbation is one of those things that can get addicting and out of hand. It just seems to me that sex (including masterbation) should have a deeper purpose attatched to it (procreation, developing intimacy w/ our partner, etc.) and not just the “feel-good” national pastime that we try to make it.

    Comment by Anelie — October 13, 2006 @ 2:05 pm

87. Bishop (#72): would you give a recommend to someone who said to you in an interview, “Yes, I do live the law of chastity. I masturbate, but that isn’t contrary to the law of chastity.” Or, similarly, would you give a recommend to someone you knew to be unabashedly masturbating, but said that he or she was living the law of chastity? What if they asked you beforehand whether masturbation was contrary to the law of chastity?

    This is exactly the kind of comment that N.O. seems to be labeling “obtuse” but which pretty much seems to say “troll.” The issue to which both Bishop and I responded was your assertion that bishops should extemporize during temple recommend interviews because it helps people to repent. Neither of us addressed the entirely different question of how to respond if a member volunteers information or requests advice, which obviously has nothing to do with the problem of bishops extemporizing.

    Your comment to Bishop is both argumentative and non-responsive. You substitute a new claim for your old (discredited) one, apparently just to keep an argument going. It could possibly be that you really can’t follow a train of thought, but mostly it just sounds like you are out to pick a fight.

    Comment by obi-wan — October 13, 2006 @ 2:05 pm

88. Fine, obi-wan, here it is. I apoligize my perceived indelicacy; I wasn’t trying to bully the bishop. I meant them as honest, non-argumentative questions. (And by the way, a question can be argumentative, but only an answer can be non-responsive.)

    My questions is this, as delicately as I can put it: Is there ever a point a bishop should assume that a interviewee misunderstands the commandments and should deny that person a recommend/calling/priesthood even though the person is saying that under his interpretation of the commandment, he is living it? I’ve been trying to get at that point for four posts and all I get are objections to form. Can we talk about that question rather than using the word obtuse again?

    Comment by jimbob — October 13, 2006 @ 2:54 pm

89. It could possibly be that you really can’t follow a train of thought, but mostly it just sounds like you are out to pick a fight.

    And I appreciate you showing me how not to be obtuse and argumentative.

    Comment by jimbob — October 13, 2006 @ 2:57 pm

90. Jimbob, I apoligize. I didn’t misuse your name on purpose, I just have a small brain. I often wonder if there’s some weird mis-wiring in my brain, if it’s part of the reason I had such a hard time learning to read and still have such a hard time with spelling, I just don’t see words as phonetic parts, but at sorta individual entities, no entity is much too solid a word, more like individual “jists”. I guess the ‘bob’ jist stuck and the “jim” jist didn’t. I sory if it felt like an insult to you. I actually know a Billybob who is a very very very nice person, and wouldn’t consider it an insult even if it had been intentional.

    But to use this as a teaching moment, and to further illustrate NO’s point (and Obi Wan’s follow-up), it’s certainly not very constructive to assume, then accuse, me of being “intentionally” insulting. For one, it lacks the diplomacy needed in a civil discussion. For two, you can not know intent, so it’s usually better to ask.

    And further, I grow weary (again) of being accused of intolerance by you. There are a whole lot of people on this thread who disagree with me in whole or in part. I haven’t shut them down, attacked them, or banned them. Truth is I’m glad there are all kinds of perspectives expressed because the more views the more likely we are to provide Jane with ideas that will actually make her life better. And I care about that way more than I care about being right or wrong.

    If you truly are interested in this discussion (or others at fMh) then you’re going to have to do some serious work on your approach. You can learn to do better, and frankly I expect you to. I do not want to have this same conversation with you again in six months, or ever.

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 13, 2006 @ 3:04 pm

91. Jimbob–I haven’t been following the whole argument thing too closely and am certainly not attacking you, so please don’t just dismiss me because I’m more liberal than you are. I’m just curious about your contention that the church definately sees masturbation as a sin one must confess to a bishop. I don’t see that stated in #54, which you cite. #54 does a nice job of offering citations showing that the church authorities still consider masterbation sinful, but not necessarily a sin for which one must mandatorily confess.

    I ask why you think people MUST confess it to the bishop in part because I’ve heard two bishops say the opposite–that unless it’s a huge problem (like accompanied by porn, and happening so often it’s disrupting your normal activities) you should work the problem with the Lord like many, many, many–in fact most–sins. Oh–and they both also said that a young man should not be “frequently” masterbating if he’s about to go on a mission.

    Have you heard bishops say the opposite? Do you have a print reference directing bishops that this is a sin which should be confessed? If it’s the former rather than the latter, it seems likely that it’s an area left up to interpretation, and bishops you know have interpreted it differently than the ones I mention.

    Comment by Janet — October 13, 2006 @ 3:14 pm

92. “I’ve been trying to get at that point for four posts and all I get are objections to form. Can we talk about that question rather than using the word obtuse again?”

    I can think of hundreds of commentors who disagree with me on hundresds of topics, but Jimbob, you are the common denominator to almost all our discussions on form at fMh. If you sincerely prefer a discussion of the subject matter as you assert, I suggest you take a look at your form. Then we don’t have to get derailed every time you show up.

    You’re a smart guy, reread your comments carefully, think before you hit enter.

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 13, 2006 @ 3:14 pm

93. …and if it’s the latter, I’m extremely interested in the citation. A friend and I were discussing how to raise kids (she has two; I hope someday to adopt some) and how we’d handle the topic. She thought we should tell them it was as big of a sin as fornication, and definately cause to see the bishop. I totally didn’t agree with her about the fornication comparison and really had no idea if there’d ever been a policy regarding confession.

    My DH has the general handbook memorized (he’s a freak that way–never forgets anything) and said it didn’t say you had to confess the subject. He thinks it’s a nonissue entirely. I am still vacillating–better to avoid masterbation, probably, but it doesn’t strike me as requiring confession.

    Comment by Janet — October 13, 2006 @ 3:20 pm

94. interestingly enough, Jimbob seems to have proven your point in his #89 post . . . . . . .

    I enjoy this site for its open frankness with topics that relatively see little if any light in typical Mormon circles. I grew up in a family not afraid to speak its mind (though my mother still is a bit puritanical in her speech, she nonetheless sits and participates with us in our more colored discussions). My wife grew up in a family that doesn’t discuss things openly. It creates an interesting atmosphere at home where I generally offend her friends and make them uncomfortable with a comment they consider inappropriate or a topic they consider taboo. She laughs. I have a certain knack for ending all talk and receiving the shocked stare of an entire room.

    Jimbob, lighten up. It’s just an opinion, not a change of doctrine.

    Comment by Keith — October 13, 2006 @ 3:25 pm

95. I am a married non-mormon and I find this subject extremely disturbing. That the Mormon church would have an official stand on masturbation is disturbing. That the Mormon church would ask young boys and married couples such a personal question is disturbing and controlling cult like behavior if you ask me. My sexuality is between me and God and now that I am married between me and my spouse and God. As FEMINIST mormon housewives, I cannot believe that any of you would belong to an instituion that would use something as personal as this subject to control and demean you. My stomach has been sick reading all of the responses. You are all grown adults with the mental capacity to determine what God wants and does not want from you. The fact that you actuallythink you would need to discuss masturbation with a third-party scares the crap out of me. Why are you taught to not think for yourselves? Blind obedience leads to so much abuse. If any adult asked my child about his or her sexuality, I would call the police.

    Comment by Sarah — October 13, 2006 @ 3:27 pm

96. Sarah, if we weren’t taught both to respect authority AND to think for ourselves, this conversation wouldn’t be happening at all. I will grant that we a cultural tendency to tout respect over questions, but our entire faith was founded on the idea that, ultimately, it is God and not other religious authorities who you must trust.

    Personally, I think any ecclesiastical leader should talk to parents and not ask a kid sexual questions, either. You’ll be happy to know that technically, an interview with an LDS bishop where he’d be asking an underage person about their sexuality would be initiated by the kid and not the bishop. Unless the bishop was breaking rules, that is.

    Comment by Janet — October 13, 2006 @ 3:34 pm

97. I want to add that when reading the bible, you will see that God gave the law of the old testament to condemn man and show man that it is impossible to keep the law and hence man’s need for Christ. Focusing on thou shalt not masturbate is putting people under the law and the only result is condemnation. Why not focus on Christ’s love and grace? I suspect if one changes their focus, masturbation will cease to be an issue.

    Comment by Sarah — October 13, 2006 @ 3:41 pm

98. Sarah, I think you miss the point of this blog and the Church’s stand on masturbation. The reason the Church focuses so much on sexual issues is because they are a real concern in a world where some values do not seem to be as important (such as premarital sex). I think the Church takes a stand against masturbation simply becasue of the powers it unlocks and the potential it may have for problematic experiences. It may be the same reason why we refrain from alcohol. Alcohol is not, per say, necessarily bad for us, but our abstenance is do to the “weakest of the saints” not really being able to control themselves. It is an advisement they give. Of course some leaders have spoken out in condemnation of the practice, but this post has served a purpose to allow those who either enjoy or who feel trapped by masturbation to discuss their strengths, weaknesses and even frustrations with policy. It is and always will be between us and God about our sexuality. The Church, like most churches, just wants to ensure we are good examples of its organization (especially when in a leadership role). Honestly, I have always been torn on the masturbation issue seeing it in one way an outlet for some stresses of life, but also recognize the Church’s stand on it and why it opposes it. Ultimately we all do what we feel is most appropriat, or if we feel trapped we seek advice on how to escape. Isn’t that what this blog is all about?

    Comment by Keith — October 13, 2006 @ 3:52 pm

99. Sarah,
    It irks me immensely when people who are non-moromons come to this site and tell us what we should and should not believe. We do not tell you what you should believe religiously–which I am sure you would hate–and please don’t tell us.

    Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 4:00 pm

100. Keith, I understand that there is sexual abuse of all sorts in this world. I understand that it is a concern for the church. It’s the church’s approach to dealing with sexual abuse that I have a problem with. I acutally find focusing on it disturbing and a bit pervertive. I think when you focus on Christ’s love and grace, issues of sin become easier to resolve. When Christ himself came in contact with sinners he didn’t rub their sins in their face - he offered them love, and through His love, they were able to make the changes they needed to make themselves.

     Comment by Sarah — October 13, 2006 @ 4:00 pm

101. I think that this is one of the reasons we are given the gift of the spirit. On grey areas like this, I think it is up to you to find out for yourself and not impose your answer on another person, they might or might not have the same answer.
     jimbob- I must confess, I am a conseritive, but I have yet to be tormented or targeted by any of the liberal mormons here. In fact, I think I fit in better here then I do in my own ward! Can we have an on-line branch?
     There is a story in the bible(I have no clue where, I guess I should read it more often) of a prophet who was told to go to a certain city and not turn back for anything. He started off and after awhile sat down to rest. Along comes another prophet and says “Hey, God just told me that you are suposed to come back to the city you just left”. So the first guy turns around and goes back to the city. God asks him what he is doing there and he replies ” Your other prophet told me that you wanted me to come back here” God then tells him that He had already given him his instructions and since he didn’t obey he was killed.
     I guess that is just to illustrate( sorry, can’t spell) my point that God will tell us what is right for us and we don’t have the right to tell others what God wants them to do. We are suposed to lead by example.
     And please, for those of you getting ready to respond that a murderer or rapist might inturpret the commandments differently from me, do you really think they are seeking the Lord’s guidence before they do stuff like that? So don’t take my comment of of context,please.

     Comment by purplesandel — October 13, 2006 @ 4:02 pm

102. Sorry to offend you Annon2. I thought this was a public forum.

     Comment by Sarah — October 13, 2006 @ 4:03 pm

103. Sarah,
     You are assuming that we as a church focus on sexual issues, and so do the bishops. There job is to focus on the love and atonement of grace, and that is what they –by and large– do.

     Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 4:03 pm

104. If you truly are interested in this discussion (or others at fMh) then you’re going to have to do some serious work on your approach. You can learn to do better, and frankly I expect you to. I do not want to have this same conversation with you again in six months, or ever.

     I appreciate it, but so long as no one throws rocks at me after I leave, I’ll just stay gone (I’m quite Hamiltonian in that respect). There’s a lot of animus in my personal direction that seems to be antithetical to any sort of meaningful debate, and I’m tired of defending commonly-used socratic methods.

     To be frank, I’ve never been kicked off of any other blog either, so you’re my “common demoninator.” Perhaps we’re just not meant for one another. Luckily, neither of us has to put up with the other any more than we want to.

     Once again, however, I noticed that all the talk was about how I could improve my form, but no one dealt with my question–even when phrased politely–which may be as germane as any topic discussed so far on this thread. You’d have to agree that all this public castigation is starting to look a little like an avoidance technique.

     Comment by jimbob — October 13, 2006 @ 4:03 pm

105. This is a public forum—but not a mormon bashing forum

     Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 4:04 pm

106. I have to agree with jimbob on this one. I have had the word obtuse thrown at me by fmh permabloggers.

     And reading, I think fmh permabloggers are often intolerant of diverse views.

     Comment by mami — October 13, 2006 @ 4:07 pm

107. I think jimbob raised an important issue, actually. As a judge in Israel, he sometimes has to make hard calls about someone’s worthiness. It does no one any good to participate in covenantal ordinances if he or she is not living up to the standards expected.

     Comment by amousynon — October 13, 2006 @ 4:24 pm

108. Sarah, God’s love and grace is so infinite that it encompasses us. We understand that. We are not questioning the power and influence of His love in our lives. But most of us are not so close to Him that we are enveloped with that love as if we were at His knee and he were shining it upon us. We seek the advise and counsel of our friends. A church is supposed to give us the word of God. If a chruch’s doctrine is not accepted, or the church’s authority questioned (as having the authority to explain to us what the Lord wants) it is probably time to either find another church or reevaluate our thinking. That the church proscribes limits to our behavior is not suprising. All real churches do that. It is not necessarily to deviate the sexual predator as it is to give us greater self control and allow us to be more receptive to the Spirit and thus more able to receive His love and grace. So masturbation may be limited, we may not like it, we may feel guilty or not for participating in its practice, but this forum began as someone wanting to stop the practice, not necessarily justify the action.

     Comment by Keith — October 13, 2006 @ 4:30 pm

109. jimbob: Re #84 above. I do not deviate from the prescribed questions. If a member raises issues with me, we discuss them. Beyond that, I can’ really be very specific, because what I would say to an individual would vary based on the circumstances. Clearly if an individual told me that she observed the law of chastity but she interpreted that law as meaning that sleeping with her boyfriend was ok, we would have a discussion about that issue.

     Clearly there are lines, and if I knew that somebody was lying to me about an issue I would not issue a recommend. But I would never ask about masturbation, just as I never ask about a host of other issues. I ask the prescribed questions, and if people want to talk about other issues, we talk about them. I believe that anything more than this is inappropriate.

     Incidentally, I did not think you were being obtuse to ask me that question.

     Re comment #86 above, it is simply not true that the temple recommend questions have become more specific in the last few years.

     Comment by Bishop — October 13, 2006 @ 4:31 pm

110. The therapist once mentioned to my bishop friend offhand in the hallway following a session that Mormons, as a group, seemed to have more sexual problems than any other religious demographic she had counselled.

     There are two alternative explanations to explain that data point.

     One is that LDS with problems are more likely to seek help than other denominations with the same troubles. Given that Newsweek article a couple years back about how 20% of US married couples have sex no more than 10 times a year, lots of folks do have problems. But those in the church, because our expectations are high and alternatives limited, may actually try harder to make things work.

     The other thing is that if a therapist uses techniques that are acceptable to LDS, they will likely get repeat business due to referrals from bishops, word of mouth, etc. because sometimes it is hard to find someone who will work with us. So those few may end up seeing lots of us (but the therapist in the next suite might not see any).

     Comment by Naismith — October 13, 2006 @ 4:46 pm

111. Jimbob, might I suggest you take a look at Sarah’s #95, decide if you think there might be tone problem there. She’s clearly not a conservative Mormon, and yet I still think she’s got some serious tone issues. I have no problem, with the content of the question she is trying to ask. Just as I do not have a problem with the content of the questions you try to ask. But both of you, from different sides of the isle have some serious social skills issues.

     Again, it’s not the content.

     I did not address the content, because I am not, nor am I ever likely to be, a Bishop. And even if I were a bishop, I’ve already made my stance on masturbation really really clear. I’m not sure what more I could say.

     Comment by fMhLisa — October 13, 2006 @ 4:48 pm

112. Naismith,

     Or maybe it’s the church’s emphasis on sex. For example, if I decide to go on a diet, I am obssessively (sp?) focused on food. Food is all I think about and oh the guilt when I eat something that is not on my diet. Alternatively, if I am happy and focusing on God’s love and His word, I just naturally eat healthier and take better care of myself.

     Comment by Sarah — October 13, 2006 @ 4:55 pm

113. I hope my tone has softened a bit. My first post came straight from the gut and I just wrote exactly what I was feeling.

     Comment by Sarah — October 13, 2006 @ 4:58 pm

114. perhaps, but as focused on God’s love as you may be, Sarah, if you are addicted to chocolate it will be very difficult for you to leave it behind . . . Especially if He asks you to.

     Comment by Keith — October 13, 2006 @ 4:59 pm

115. Sarah, you’re not seeing the context of it all. This is one discussion on one blog. The topic is masturbation so the discussion revolves around that. To conclude from this thread that the LDS Church focuses on controlling people at the expense of teaching about Christ’s grace is to extrapolate too much. If you were to attend your neighborhood Mormon church for six months straight you probably wouldn’t hear masturbation mentioned even once.

     Comment by Tom — October 13, 2006 @ 5:04 pm

116. Sarah–
     Although we are clearly focusing on sex on this thread–the church does not emphasize sex per-se. I am sorry to see you read this thread this way

     Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 5:05 pm

117. and I am not kidding when I say that I have heard the word mentioned once, possibly twice at church, or from anyone in the church context–in my whole mid-thirties life

     Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 5:08 pm

118. Re; whether or not a bishop should take an interviewee at their word when he’s pretty sure that they’re lying- I say yes and here’s why. I don’t think the Bishop’s mantle of authority means that he’s going to take the blame for letting liars and sinners in the Temple and thus is personally responsible for accurately gauging the worthiness of members. I think his mantle of authority means my lie is made much worse because of who I lied to. Lying to your neighbor is bad, lying to Christ, or someone acting on his behalf, is probably the worst lie you can tell.
     If I’m wrong, and the bishop were personally responsible for accurately gauging worthiness then I think that the interview process would be very very different than it is now.

     Comment by Starfoxy — October 13, 2006 @ 5:08 pm

119. We don’t need to take seriously a third hand account of one therapist’s perception of the relative incidence of sexual problems in LDS people compared to people in other denominations. I’ll start wondering why LDS have more sexual problems than people from other denominations when I have a half-decent reason to believe that they do.

     Comment by Tom — October 13, 2006 @ 5:10 pm

120. I have to agree with jimbob on this one. I have had the word obtuse thrown at me by fmh permabloggers.

     And reading, I think fmh permabloggers are often intolerant of diverse views.

     Maybe you were being obtuse and they thought it was nicer than calling you a blockhead? Just because permabloggers may be overusing it as you describe doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

     And the FMH group doesn’t seem any more intolerant than anyone else in the bloggernacle, they are after all human. Is it intolerant to ask you to remember what type of site you are commenting on, as well as asking you to make your points in a civil fashion?

     Comment by jjohnsen — October 13, 2006 @ 5:13 pm

121. I don’t think people who are LDS have more sexual problems–
     I think it is a conservative–protestant type mentality, not mormons per se

     Starfoxy–
     I think the bishop should/has to take their word. It is his job to help people to become/remain worthy to enter the temple.
     If they lie, the sin is on their own heads–not his.

     Comment by anon2 — October 13, 2006 @ 5:13 pm

122. Jimbob, I understand why you’re annoyed when questions you ask go unanswered–so please do me the courtesy of answering my direct question to you. I am honestly, sincerely curious about why you believe masturbation would require confession to a bishop. If that’s just your opinion, that’s fine. But if you have a more specific source than personal raticianation (how do you spell that durned word?) I’d love to know.

     Comment by Janet — October 13, 2006 @ 5:14 pm

123. Re: Tom’s last post:

     Sarah, if you attended a single’s ward, i guarantee you’d hear masturbation mentioned many times in the space of six months. This is for younger singles as well as older–sometimes even divorced–singles.

     My old singles ward bishop said many times from the pulpit that masturbation is against the law of chastity and said, I quote: “If you masturbate, you need to come and talk to me; it’s against the law of chastity, and you need to confess it.”

     These kinds of suggestions/commandments can lead to dysfunction and the very kind of problems that Jane is facing. It’s just wrong.

     Comment by Velma — October 13, 2006 @ 5:14 pm

124. Velma,
     My experience in single’s ward was very different from yours.

     Comment by Tom — October 13, 2006 @ 5:17 pm

125. Re 91

     I ask why you think people MUST confess it to the bishop in part because I’ve heard two bishops say the opposite–that unless it’s a huge problem (like accompanied by porn,

     Why would masturbation accompanied by porn be worse than masturbation without? I thought that one of the dangers of porn was that it leads to masturbation.

     and happening so often it’s disrupting your normal activities) you should work the problem with the Lord like many, many, many–in fact most–sins.

     Apparently you *do* see it as a sin, though, which others in this discussion do not.

     And actually, I don’t see the advice you got from those two bishops as being “opposite,” but rather slightly farther along on a continuum which has NOBODY’S BUSINESS at one end and IMMEDIATE CONFESSION at the other.

     I’ve never gotten the impression that this is a sin of such gravity that you have to run to the bishop to confess, the way one would more clearly need to the morning after committing murder or fornicating.

     But can once answer the temple recommend question about chastity in the affirmative, if you are masturbating and see no harm in it? I think that’s the crux of the matter.

     In April 2005 General Conference, Elder Oaks said, “Some have suggested that pornography should be a separate question in the temple recommend interview. It is already. At least five different questions should elicit a confession and discussion on this subject if the person being interviewed has the spiritual sensitivity and honesty we expect of those who worship in the house of the Lord.”

     That’s pretty much how I see the masturbation issue. Everything I have ever been taught in the church is that masturbation *is* a violation of the law of chastity. Therefore, I couldn’t feel that I was living up to the law of chastity if I was masturbating. I would confess and discuss.

     Comment by Naismith — October 13, 2006 @ 5:26 pm

126. As a permablogger who is, as usual, late to the discussion, and who has never called anyone obtuse (er…I don’t think), I’d like to be the one who entreats you all to just chill, please? Let’s be nice to each other so that we can acutally learn from each other, instead of polarizing and sniping.

     jimbob - I actually thought you did a fab job of rephrasing your question to be more civil, which just goes to show that you do know the difference, and you can do it when you want to…so why not do it all the time? It will save us all some consternation. Anywho…As Lisa has pointed out, we aren’t Bishops and aren’t likely ever to be, but I’ll take a stab at your question.

     I think that a Bishop’s job is not to coerce confessions that the confessor is not yet ready to confess. Therefore, I don’t think adding to the questions is ever appropriate, even when the BIshop senses something is wrong. As others have mentioned, the sin of any witholding/lying will be on the head of the witholder/liar. However, if the interviewee were to bring up the subject on his/her own, I believe that a Bishop is within bounds to deny a reccommend based on attitude. If the person were struggling with addiction and guilt and was truly wrestling with the issue, I would hope that the emphasis of the conversation would be on forgiveness, love, keeping going, and so forth, rather than on condemnation, but I think we have all known leaders who simply don’t function that way. If the person were completely unrepentant and just did not feel that masturbation was in violation of the LoC, then that would be a much more difficult call to make. I essentially agree with fMhLisa’s stance on the subject, so I don’t know what I would do in that case, were I a Bishop. I think that I would probably agree in my heart but feel that the Church had set up rules that as Bishop I was meant to uphold– and would therefore find myself having to deny the recommend. How’s that for letter of the law?

     Comment by EmilyS — October 13, 2006 @ 5:34 pm

127. Maybe that’s because I was in several single’s wards from the age of 18 to 38?

     Comment by Velma — October 13, 2006 @ 5:41 pm

128. Thanks, Naismith, for answering my question. I really appreciate it! I think maybe Jimbob has proverbally left the building, so it’s nice somebody stepped in to answer my query.

     I would disagree that the concern about porn intrinisically must really be about masterbation, however–in fact, that’s the least harm I see coming from porn. Since hardcore porn objectifies women while portraying men solely as sex beasts, I’d think the larger danger would be severaly damaged self-image accompanied by perverted views of the opposite sex (works whichever gender is looking at the porn). Plus, pornography inherently invovles other people in your sexuality–something which seems a bigger deal to me than masterbation (more on the continuim towards fornication). Additionally, the porn consumer winds up economically supporting an industry rife with corruption, violence, and um, grossness. I see all of those things as more problematic than masterbation. Plus–and I know I’m commiting the sin of flawed inductive reasoning here–I know of several instances where a porn consumer has become a porn addict and commenced beating the crap out of, or out right raping, his wife or girlfriend. Bleach.

     Your comments about answering the chastity question in an interview are well-reasoned (if you indeed believe masterbation is a sin, I guess, so others on this thread won’t think so). On the other hand, nobody is ever 100% totally honest with their fellow man (sic), but I think bishops would be shocked if we all said, “Nope” when asked the question. Nobody has perfect familial relationships, either. We rely upon our understanding and good judgment in deciding which sins are “confession worthy,” and we do the same with chastity. I mean, I’ve had an unclean thoughts which I have probably entertained a little too long (when I was dating–not so much a problem now that I’m hitched), but have never confessed to my bishop about it. The poor men would never get a break if we really confessed all of the more minor infractions of the recommend rules.

     You’re right, though–I do think masterbation is a sin. I just wonder if it’s more in the league of a randomly entertained unclean thought rather than the more serious sins. The problem, of course, with unclean thoughts is that they can lead to more serious stuff, and that’s my largest reservation about masterbation as well. Plus, I tend to accept the stuff you posted earlier as authoritative enough. If the church changes its tune later on, well, it would neither shock nor upset me. My DH is a doctor and thinks that from a medical standpoint, obsessing over masterbation causes more harm than the occasional masterbatory incident. It seems like a reasonable argument to me.

     Thanks again for taking the time to respond–in fact, anyone should feel free to pick apart anything I’ve said here as well! I only starting thinking about this topic as we’ve been applying to adopt and I ponder how to teach my future kids about sexuality. This whole thread is quite educational for me.

     Comment by Janet — October 13, 2006 @ 6:08 pm

129. Oh, and my DH’s example works from a spiritual standpoint as well, I think.

     Comment by Janet — October 13, 2006 @ 6:11 pm

130. Sarah,

     Don’t feel bad and please feel welcome around here. I actually completly agree with what you have been saying about focusing on Christ.

     Despite some of the horror stories you have seen from people here, though, I think the church really believes the same. When we focus on the Savior, the Book of Mormon, the Bible - our desire to do things that are harmful to ourselves or our spirits decreases. Our religion is truly the Book of Mormon, which is truly a book testifying of Christ. All this junk we are discussing here is just junk, not our religion. Sometimes, we members forget our religion as we go about the administration of our church and our daily lives.

     And, that is really my advice to Jane - focus on the Savior, on the Atonement, on the Book of Mormon and what it teaches. Repent and forgive yourself, which includes forgetting the transgression and moving on. Good luck to you

     Comment by Vertitas — October 13, 2006 @ 6:33 pm

131. Nicely said, Vertitas. It’s like Matthew 22 says–if you truly learn to love God and your neighbors with your whole heart, everything else falls into place. And all the obsessing in the universe won’t make you feel better about a sin or a habit unless you accept Jesus’ grace.

     Comment by Janet — October 13, 2006 @ 6:41 pm

132. I used the word ‘obtuse’ because I decided my original phrasing ‘inability to think flexibly or see another’s point of view’ was too over the top. Perhaps I should have gone with my first instincts. They were more specific and clear.

     And I agree with Emily — obviously you [Jimbob] can make a point without seeming to want to pick a fight. If you’ll just do it consistently you’ll not get any more flack from me.

     NO

     Comment by not ophelia — October 13, 2006 @ 7:47 pm

133. And then what about women who have few to no orgasms?

     I never did drugs or alcohol, and the one natural high our bodies have built in, and I have this problem!!!!!

     I am being rather daring in leaving my name attached to this, but hey, what the heck.

     Oh, and it is by no means any deficiency on my husband’s part; believe me, I’m happy with him, his body, and all his efforts and love.

     This is actually an issue for the both of us, though. He feels badly, and I went through years of having a hard time getting up the feeling to want intimacy at all; I know it’s about more than just the finish, but it wasn’t a conscious thing; my body I guess just got disgusted with itself at the frustration or something.

     Anyway. I also heard/read that this problem can be related to a pregnancy-related problem: that of not going into labor. They both involve contractions of the uterus . . .

     Believe me, they did everything they could to get me to go into labor, three induced labors that failed, for 36 hours of pain to no purpose (except for possibly knowing what it feels like for next time, if my body will initiate labor, and do it productively whether on its own or induced, unlike last time).

     I think there is a huge problem of being so strict on the issues of sex that when a person gets married, it’s just not easily, or ever, able to switch that all off. I think this is a HUGE disservice to the quality of life of many women, and some men, as well.

     The first Sunday I went to church after getting married . . . it felt so wierd, and I felt SO horrid!

     Anyway, sorry to run so far afield from masturbation . . . trying to figure out how I work, so that I can enjoy/learn to enjoy one aspect of what we were meant for here on earth, well, I don’t see that as a bad thing, although for me I’m speaking within marriage.

     With discussion with my husband, and participation as well.

     I’m blushing! And wondering if all this I’m posting is appropriate . . . BUT I THINK that, and some occasions, there NEEDS TO BE frank discussion between adults, especially when problems like mine can feel so isolating. Any sexual problem could be.

     So . . . I think, Jane, that you should do what you have decided is best; I hope all the advice in this thread has been helpful for you!

     I also hope to receive some support and kindness and stuff from people in response to this post of mine that kind of scares me to post, but . . .

     Comment by sarebear — October 13, 2006 @ 8:01 pm

134. Hi, Sarebear! I’ve actually had a number of friends come to me with the same concer (they figure that I’m really NOT shy, and am married to a doctor, so they can get info without actually talking to their doctors).

     That said, I’m all for talking to your doctor. It sounds like you’ve tried a number of things (unlike the friend who’d never had anything besides regular old missionary position sex), so you might have a structural issue which can be fixed. I think a good manual which treats sexuality respectfully can be helpful–the old standard *The Joy of Sex* is what someone gave me when I got married, and I’ve loaned it out to various friends.

     If sex is actually painful for you, then it could be vagisimus (sp??), a condition that can be treated as well. If your doctor isn’t sure what the deal is, go to one who actually specializes in sexuality–if there is one in your area (Utah, right?).

     You’re totally right–sex is supposed to be an immensely wonderful portion of marriage and there’s nothing wrong with trying to improve your sex life within appropriate boundaries (as in, I wouldn’t recommend having a “key party” ala 1977). NOTHING to be ashamed of.

     I am sick and my brain hurts, so if I think of something later, I’ll put that in here. Some people were talking earlier about how mutual masterbation within marriage, or masterbation specifically to find out what works for you so that your sex life with hubby can be better, isn’t condemned by the church. I’m still sketchy on the whole “severity” of masterbation before marriage issue, but I can’t see why ANYONE would have a problem with you trying to improve your sex life with your husband.

     Your doctor should be able to figure out if there are structural issues or treat vaginismus (sp?? I hope I’m remembering the word right!), so I’d make that a priority if you’ve already explored sexual variety in your marriage.

     Comment by Janet — October 13, 2006 @ 8:58 pm

135. Dear Sarebear,
     I feel your pain….sort of.
     I had years and years of a great sex life with my husband, and than bang one day it was gone. I went into menopause….and EVERYTHING changed. I’m on natural hormones (just like the mother of Jared) and they help, but it doesn’t fix it. I felt like I was dying on the vine….and than my husband and I discovered a wonderful little device called a “vibrator”. I’ve got a new lease on life.
     *Don’t judge until you walk in my shoes. I’m just grateful that I’m married to a great guy who loves me and can “think outside of the box”.
     At this point in my life I could care less what the church thinks of my sex life…..I’m just glad I figured out how to still have one!!!

     Comment by Can't Say — October 13, 2006 @ 9:20 pm

136. I don’t want to join the debate, but I wanted to leave a note of encouragement:

     The Savior is your key in this hardship and any other. He loves you now and always will. His Atonement covers your mistakes: even the mistakes you make after you commit to be better. Don’t drown in the guilt. Lay that burden on the Lord.

     Elder Holland said, “When He says to the poor in spirit, “Come unto me,” He means He knows the way out and He knows the way up. He knows it because He has walked it. He knows the way because He is the way.” (May 2006 Ensign)

     Never give up. Christ always wants you to come to Him.

     I’ll remember you in my prayers,
     The Dead Plant

     Comment by The Dead Plant — October 13, 2006 @ 10:36 pm

137. I’ve been reading for the past few days and It’s been somewhat enlightening for me so I figured I’d add my story to the mix.

     I’ve been masturbating ever since I can remember (maybe 5 years old). I don’t know how I learned or why (believe me I’ve racked my brain. And I’ve never felt the need to seek out proffessional help or talk with my Bishop). Masturbating for me has never required porn or unclean thoughts. It’s just always been a part of me. I’ve have felt guilt, felt dirty, that I was going to hell at times, although after reading this thread I’m probably more at peace than I’ve ever been about it. I also should add, that it’s never been consistent part of my life. Sort of an on again off again thing. And for the most part has been off since I was married.

     I do have to say that I am thankful in part for my masturbating experience in that I know how my body works and sex with my husband (meaning orgasm) has never been a problem. I orgasmed on our first night and am one of the lucky one’s who can say that I can orgasm multiple times. Is this a result of my masturbating all those years? I don’t know, but I tend to think that it made things easier (my heart really goes out to you sarebear and all the others who can’t orgasm). There is nothing in my life that tells me that my masturbating all those years hurt me, other than the guilt that I felt, which I can let go of. I just want to say thanks to everyone who has commented. I never thought I’d ever get into a conversation about this, but it’s been good for me. I hope someone can benefit from my experience.

     Comment by justme — October 14, 2006 @ 12:56 am

138. my masturbation story is a bit amusing.
     I was raised in a home where no sex talk occurred, so I was clueless. I was about 12 when I discovered, purely by accident and quite innocently, that a jet of water gave one quite a sensation! I thought I had discovered something that NO ONE IN THE WORLD knew about! I nearly sent an anon. letter in to a magazine to share the amazing news that “if you just aim some water properly, it will give you a great feeling down there”. I’m sure the editors would have gotten a great laugh over that!

     Anyway, it never occurred to me that this had anything to do with sex, because I had no idea what sex entailed at that point. All I knew was that I liked it, and I took every opportunity to experience it that I could contrive. And I was creative, daring and bold!

     Okay, end of the amusing story.

     It was a some time later when I was thoroughly hooked, that I began to realize that this little activity was probably not okay. Once I learned the M word…I began to really feel awful. I went through the same hellish feelings that Jane experienced (is experiencing), and swore over and over that “this time would be the last time”. It never was, and I hated myself. I already had a self-esteem complex, and this feeling of wretchedness didn’t help.

     I couldn’t imagine describing the particulars of my problem to my bishop, but felt sure that this was an example of the kind of thing I had to confess to him. I waited till the night before I was leaving home to start college at BYU. I made an appointment and told him everything I’d ever done wrong in my life (this was the worst of it) with as little detail as possible. He actually made me feel pretty horrid by telling me I’d tied his hands…that “BYU was a place for people who are living the standards of the church”…and that by waiting till then I’d put him in a terrible position.

     I felt bad as bad. The solution was he called my new BYU bishop and told him the situation and the plan he’d outlined (stop, no sacrament, read Miracle of Forgiveness etc) for me to become worthy again.

     I expected to feel SO relieved after having told the bishop, that I’d be able to never do it again…and I did better, but eventually I caved.

     This really bothered me. I did everything I could to avoid it, but I couldn’t stop showering! It was hell. I begged and begged for God to take away the desire. I wasn’t even sure at that point if what I was experiencing was an orgasm or not…never having had sex.
     Then I married.

     Due to a lousy sex life with my DH (whom I love and he loves me, but he just has major intimacy issues–but that’s another story), I “lost that lovin’ feeling”. I just shut it down entirely. My sexual desire has come and gone in the intervening years…and for a while I decided that it was okay to masturbate because I was married.

     But my thinking has continued to evolve on this matter as I’ve grown. It’s taken a long time, but for me, it’s about purity. I don’t feel pure when I self-stimulate. People tell me “in your situation it’s CRAZY not to!” because I’m trapped in a sexless marriage (No, he’s not gay–we’ve been through that already.) So for a little while there, I got back into masturbation…but as I said, I want to be pure. I won’t be perfect ever in this life, but I can strive for purity in my life and heart, and masturbating just obliterates any sense of purity. Is that Mormon conditioning kicking in? I have thought a LOT about it, and I don’t believe it is. I feel much closer to the spirit when I’m abstaining–it’s a sacrifice I’m trying to make.

     So I keep trying. I am pretty good for a few months at a time…and I feel worthy to participate in every aspect of our faith.

     I think, Jane, you will find that as long as you are TRYING your best, and WANT to do what’s right, that the day-to-day stuff is rather secondary. Just like Bishop commented above, you’re a great girl. You have a great heart, and probably suffer from “perfectionism syndrom” like so many of us. I don’t think you need to report masturbating to the bishop. That’s my opinion…and you just need to follow your own heart on this. I did because as a teen I thought I was supposed to tell him ANYTHING I felt guilty about. But I don’t believe that to be the case. He’s there to guide you to resources that are available to help you overcome problems…he can’t give you absolution from them. You know what those resources are. If it’s become an addiction, that 12 step program mentioned would be useful for you.

     Other wise, just keep trying to do what is right. You’re going to be fine! You already ARE!

     Comment by how many of us anons are there? — October 14, 2006 @ 1:26 am

139. For those who think masturbation is sinful and against the LoC, would you really expect a never married 40 year old to be completely asexual? Would that not contribute to his weirdness factor and unmarriageability?

     Comment by jj — October 14, 2006 @ 7:14 am

140. For those who think masturbation is sinful and against the LoC, would you really expect a never married 40 year old to be completely asexual?

     That’s pretty much what Wendy Watson claimed to be, right up to her marriage in her 50s. (Wendy Watson was a nurse and family therapist on faculty at BYU until she married Elder Nelson last April, and author of Purity and Passion.)

     Comment by Naismith — October 14, 2006 @ 7:26 am

141. Did she really claim to have NEVER masturbated? In any case, the man she finally married is an octogenarian who thinks pillow talk is evil. For all we know, she probably is still a virgin.

     Comment by jj — October 14, 2006 @ 7:51 am

142. Isn’t there a difference between someone who has tried it a few times and one who is a habitual “user”? Until I met my husband, I always assumed that all the men I had dated had at least masterbated a few times.

     My husband swears he never has, and I believe him. He is the kind of guy who changes the channel when a Victoria Secret commercial comes on. He has unbelievable self-control of both thoughts and actions. If you met him, you would know what I’m talking about. He’s a walking anomaly for me. Yet, we have a great, healthy sex life.

     So it is possible to not masterbate and not self-destruct or turn into some kind of repressed deviant.

     Comment by Anelie — October 14, 2006 @ 9:26 am

143. I’m with jj: Anelie, was your husband 40, single and a virgin and never masturbated? There’s a difference between “self-control” at 24 and being completely asexual all one’s single life because of religious reasons. It’s been widely studied. Just ask St. Augustine.

     Comment by Velma — October 14, 2006 @ 9:49 am

144. Sarebear, when my husband was in grad school (25+ years ago), I had a stake calling, and the counselor in the stake presidency who was over my area gently explained that there was one weekend a month when he could not be bothered. He was a professor (full professor) in the psychology department at the major state university in town, and also ran a private family therapy practice, and sex therapy was one of his specialties. His services were in such demand that couples came from several states away, and he had found that doing a concentrated weekend worked well. They would arrive by Friday afternoon, and meet with him and a grad student, then the couple would go back to the hotel with an assignement, and come back that evening for another session, and so on.

     He was LDS, but working in a locality that was not predominately LDS, and yet he was well respected by his colleagues and many graduate students wanted to work with him.

     So there is good help available. Although he happened to be a psychologist, I think he would want you to consider and rule out physical problems first, so Janet’s suggestion of a visit to a physician seems like a very good first step. But a lot of soctors are clueless when it comes to sexual issues, and perhaps a therapist might have the specific skills that are ultimately needed.

     Comment by Naismith — October 14, 2006 @ 10:31 am

145. Sare-
     I seem to recall from your past posts that like myself you deal with mental health issues. Most medications generally prescribed for these problems affect your “sex drive” negatively. I don’t know if this is your problem, but it might be a good thing to talk to your M.D. about.

     Good Luck hon…

     Comment by just call me Cassandra... — October 14, 2006 @ 10:45 am

146. I think 138 hit the nail on the head. M. isn’t a literal breaking of the law of chastity. But it becomes an issue of purity. Purity is about respecting the powers of procreation and all that goes along with it — including the emotions that our leaders tell us to not arouse alone, or with someone else unless married. It’s about recognizing that those emotions have one specific purpose and that any other stimulation of these emotions is to be avoided. And, of course, this is challenging for most people even married folks — for ex. it is why we are encouraged to avoid entertainment that exploits sex — because it degrades it, and also can arouse our emotions inappropriately. (even if married we should avoid arousal that does not include the spouse)
     I was single for quite a while. Never m’d — it is possible.

     141, jj
     that was totally out of line, imo. you misinterpreted E. nelson. purity applies to marriage too.

     Comment by amousynon — October 14, 2006 @ 11:53 am

147. I don’t think jj “misinterpreted” Elder Nelson at all. He definitely said that pillow talk between married couples was wrong–he said “lewd” talk IIRC. This is another good point to underscore that the Church should have NO business in the bedrooms of its married or single members. Does anyone really think Heavenly Father and Jesus care if a married couple is using spicy words when they’re getting busy? Sheesh.

     Comment by Velma — October 14, 2006 @ 12:15 pm

148. In any case, the man she finally married is an octogenarian who thinks pillow talk is evil.

     Actually, that is straight from her book — a book that she wrote while single, with no experience of either marriage or (so we are told) sex. He apparently decided to introduce his new wife’s, shall we say, idiosyncratic views on marital relations into his general conference address.

     If Velma is correct that the Church leadership has no business in the member’s bedrooms (and she is) then it seems to me that their un-called, un-sustained, un-ordained spouses have even less business there.

     Comment by diogenes — October 14, 2006 @ 4:23 pm

149. I have noticed that addictive behaviors are often linked to depression. I have had LDS friend with similar patterns: some people overeat, or go shopping and get into debt, or have promiscuous sex, or have a masterbation problem, or a porn problem. The way you have described your problem (I want to stop, I’ve tried to stop, but I can’t stop and I feel bad that I can’t) is exactly the description of an addiction.
     I think that you need to work on this realizing that it is an overwhelming thing but it can be done one day at a time.
     Check into therapy or anti-depressants. Realize your self-worth as a daughter of God.
     God loves us all even though we are all sinners. Each and every person has daily temptation to sin. We can slowly overcome our struggles.
     It is Satan that makes us feel like we can’t ever change.
     Our “change of heart” is a constant challenge.
     My suggestion is to pray to know how to approach this problem. Expect progress to be slow. Expect to look at all the options (12 step, books, different strategies) before finding the one that the Lord will help you know it will be successful. The Lord will help you. Sometimes you need to change the question you ask in your prayers, sometimes you need to do some research to find the answer.
     Good luck to you.

     Comment by jks — October 14, 2006 @ 4:47 pm

150. Whoa–somehow I missed that GC addresss that mentioned “pillow talk.”

     When DH and I were in the sealing room, all dress in white and holding hands, our sealer actually told us, without so much as a wink, that we should be sure to engage in “pillow talk.” Hehehehe–I wonder if he knew what the term meant.

     Then again, he also told my husband to buy me a washing machine, and when I piped up that I’d rather have a piano, I earned something of a glare.

     Comment by Janet — October 14, 2006 @ 5:10 pm

151. I think lewd talk and pillow talk can be two different things. Really, folks, there must be a reason he said what he said. Sex is supposed to be treated with purity even in marriage. Whatsa big deal about him saying we shouldn’t degrade it with lewd talk? That’s not undermining all pillow talk by any means. Let’s not make it bigger than it needs to be, never mind criticizing a prophet. yikes

     Comment by amousynon — October 14, 2006 @ 6:02 pm

152. I know this is not the subject of this post, but I have some advice from my personal experience for the preorgasmic married women who have posted.

     I was happily married for five years before my husband and I figured out how to get me to orgasm. We were both very innocent virgins. I found sex pleasant enough but both of us became frustrated that we could not figure out my orgasm. It took us a year to work up the courage to read some books on the subject. I would recommend any of those books, the first one most of all. But most of the advice didn’t apply to us or didn’t work for us.

     There were not any physical problems. I felt desire. We have a healthy relationship and slowly grew comfortable talking about intimate things. I overcame most of my guilt feelings by talking frankly with my husband about all the things that were making me feel guilty, and knowing that he still loved me. We tried all kinds of non-missionary positions. We finally overcame shyness and tried a vibrator. I think all of those things are good advice. But my problem was more simple, my body does not orgasm easily and I had to train my body how to do it. I probably would never have had an orgasm without this vibrator. It’s much stronger than a normal vibrator and much higher quality. With a lot of practice I’ve figured my body out and I no longer need this to have an orgasm, though it does make them much more powerful. If anyone else is struggling with this and would like more specific advice, let me know and we can exchange email addresses.

     Comment by I struggled too — October 14, 2006 @ 6:16 pm

153. I’m reading many of your comments and I’m thinking, “This actually makes me glad that I’m not young anymore and hung up on this kind of stuff (not that sex isn’t important to me…see comment #135).”
     I use to feel guilty and “unpure” about so many things that just aren’t important to me anymore. I think I have lived long enough and have waded through a lot of crap that just isn’t important. I just don’t waste a lot of energy on it anymore.
     I’m happy to say that I’ve always been active in the Church, I’m just at a point in my life now that I’m able to live my religion better…by not letting stuff like this drain my spiritual fuel.
     When I stand at the judgement bar before the Lord and It is all layed out there…the good, the bad, and the ugly…I will be able to say that I lived my life the best way I felt it should be lived.

     Comment by Can't Say — October 14, 2006 @ 6:34 pm

154. I think lewd talk and pillow talk can be two different things. Really, folks, there must be a reason he said what he said. Sex is supposed to be treated with purity even in marriage. Whatsa big deal about him saying we shouldn’t degrade it with lewd talk? That’s not undermining all pillow talk by any means.

     This is what was actually said, in April 2006 General Conference:
     Because it is ordained of God, the intimate physical expressions of married love are sacred. Yet all too commonly, these divine gifts are desecrated. If a couple allows lewd language or pornography to corrupt their intimacy, they offend their Creator while they degrade and diminish their own divine gifts. True happiness is predicated upon personal purity. Scripture commands: “Be ye clean.”

     Comment by Naismith — October 15, 2006 @ 6:26 am

155. For people over 50, “pillow talk” means frank conversation in bed. It is definitely not dirty-talk or lewd-talk. See:
     http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pillow+talk

     If there’s anything sex-related to it, it’s merely talk after sex.

     Comment by anonymous — October 15, 2006 @ 5:53 pm

156. Well, its sex talk that the Nelsons are against, not just for themselves, but all married couples inthe Church. They did not use the term pillow talk.

     Comment by jj — October 15, 2006 @ 7:35 pm

157. And even “sex talk” and “lewd talk” can be very, very different things, I think. The latter may always be the former, but the former isn’t always the latter.

     Comment by Janet — October 15, 2006 @ 8:01 pm

158. Lewd means crude and offensive language. I don’t think spicy bedroom conversation is necessarily needs to be crude or offensive in order to be effective.
     I don’t think anyone can restrict words, and the meanings, attitudes and feelings that go with them to just the bedroom. Being called a ‘dirty ho’ in bed may help to heat things up, but being called a ‘dirty ho’ at the the dinner table is out of the question. Eventually such things work their way into all facets of the relationship and can be damaging.

     Comment by Starfoxy — October 15, 2006 @ 8:12 pm

159. This is not something that is controlling my life. At it’s worst it happens every 2 weeks. At my best every few months.

     Question: Are you allowed to go into the temple if self-stimulation is something you engage in? Some of you suggest that this won’t be much of a problem once I get married, but each time this happens I lose my temple recommend status and so I wouldn’t even be able to get married. And I am scared to death that someday I will get engaged and screw up and then lose my temple recommend and throw off my marriage plans and then what will I do.

     Thank you Commenters 10, 19, 35, and 43

     Commenters:
     #9-I also had a BYU bishop who stated that this was a problem with many many singles, and that he estimated there were just as many women as there were men who confessed. I found that very comforting given the fact that the leadership of the church has in no way ever even remotely addressed the idea that this might be a struggle for women as well.

     #12-Thank you. I really like the idea that it is important not to self-stimulate because climaxing during sex with my husband will not always be easy and we need to learn to work together. And I will find a counselor.

     #54-Thank you so much for sharing that information! I really really needed to hear that.

     #67-I cried. You remind me of my last BYU bishop. The singles in your ward are lucky to have you. Thank you for caring.

     #138-Thank you for being so honest.

     This entire thread has been so so helpful! Thank you to the administrators who were willing to fight the nasty comments that I am sure came. Thank you to everyone who expressed their love and shared their stories. I got everything I wanted out of this post. Resources to help me stop, assurance that I wasn’t alone, and a reminder that my Father in Heaven loves me right now. Not after I can go to the temple again, but right now. I am sure I will be re-reading this in times of trouble.

     BTW, I highly support the self-help section idea.

     Comment by hairfullofsecrets — October 15, 2006 @ 9:00 pm

160. It’s important to call masturbation a “sin.” Otherwise, it’d be no fun at all. Let’s not change it.

     Comment by Lynn — October 15, 2006 @ 9:50 pm

161. Sheesh. Sex talk between married couples is outlawed now? I am so going to become an Episcopalian.

     Comment by Kaimi — October 15, 2006 @ 10:16 pm

162. Thanks, ladies. I’ll be looking up an email or two, of someone who offered. Been meaning to get back to you Janet, but I procrastinate ALOT. Too.

     As well, I’m already in therapy for bipolar and anxiety disorders, among other things, and I also hope to work out whatever mental blocks I’m having in the way of “fun”.

     I’ve talked with my doctor before.

     Comment by sarebear — October 15, 2006 @ 11:54 pm

163. It is odd to me that many women here don’t directly link porn and masturbation. What do you think we are doing while we look at porn. We dont just look you know. The vast vast vast majority of men that look at porn on any kind of consistant basis ejaculate during the viewing, or immediately there after. Almost always through masturbation. In my case, masturbation led to porn. Not the other way around. Making yourself orgasm may be a milder act for women, but for men, it is definately a sin and something to be avoided at all costs.

     Comment by Jeff — October 16, 2006 @ 8:49 am

164. Well it’s odd to me that men do link porn and masturbation. It makes no sense. LOL.

     Orgasm is a physical release. A physical response to physical stimulus that relaxes the body. Porn is people doing their job and posing for a camera. And it’s so fake and ugly. They’re two different things entirely.

     So yeah, men and women see things differently. Weird, huh?

     Comment by Kerri — October 16, 2006 @ 1:40 pm

165. “Making yourself orgasm may be a milder act for women, but for men, it is definately a sin and something to be avoided at all costs.”

     That’s why female-dominant is the only acceptable position.

     Comment by Carlton — October 16, 2006 @ 2:36 pm

166. Is anyone else suspicious of “Bishop”s #67 entry?

     “You should decide what your values should be. You decide what is a healthy expression of your sexuality and what is not. And then act in accordance with those internalized values. Quit trying to measure up to some other standard.”

     This really doesn’t sound like the way a Bishop would talk. Or even a man for that matter. Is this one of the fmh permabloggers making up a fake entry? I don’t know of any real Bishop that would make such comments on a feminist site and sign it “Bishop”.

     Maybe it’s just me, but the whole thing sounds strange. Anyone else?
     Also, I think there are alot more offensive comments on this post than jimbobs. Whey was he the only one targeted?

     Comment by Karter M — October 16, 2006 @ 3:39 pm

167. Karter, I had a friend (female) who came to me with this problem and told me our bishop had responded more or less with the content listed in #67. In fact, he called her to be a temple worker (she was confused by the whole thing, which is why she told me–it was the first time I’d seriously considered the issue at all.) “Bishop” didn’t say “masturbation is a great idea, go to it!”; if you look at the full content of his comment rather than taking a snippet out of context, he simply is arguing that a person shouldn’t judge their soul’s entirely in terms of one problem with which they struggle. Not all bishops are the same and some tend towards a bit more leniency. It looks to me like “Bishop” of #67 simply is one of those, like me and my friend’s old bishop.

     Also, I think you seriously misread the personalities of the permabloggers if you genuinely believe one of them would think she needed to invent the comment of a male ecclesiastical leader in order to legitimize her own opinion. That’s just ironic :). But hey, I guess we all have our suspicious days, so you’re allowed to have one.

     Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 4:20 pm

168. This is coming from someone who struggled with masturbation for years, thinks it is a sin, and who is also medicated for depression:

     I am appalled that people have suggested anti-depressants as a solution to the poster’s problem. This idea of just medicating especially women’s problems away is horrid. Oh! This woman is masturbating! What an unwomanly thing to do! She must be unnatural and ill and must therefore be medicated! Heavens.

     Hairfullofsecrets,

     The book that most helped me was a rather horrible book and one that I am hesitant to recommend. My initial reaction was to throw it across the room because I found it male-centric and condescending to women. I was angry angry angry, but a few things in the book just clicked with me on a second look, and I’ve never masturbated since. This was 3 1/2 years ago. The main things I think helped was seeing printed in a book form the very thoughts I’d had many times over (thoughts like “I’ll stop on my next birthday”), realizing these were common thoughts in those suffering from addiction, and thus seeing that I was not unique.

     The other thing that’s helped me is to absolutely ban guilt from my life. Guilt is not from God. End of story.

     And Christ…Christ is key. That’s what this book said anyway. I have had a hard time having this emotional connection with Christ regarding all this, but I never let myself have the thought “I kicked this from my own strength.” That kind of pride always made the behavior return in me back when I was in my cycles of abstinence and transgression. No. It will not be from your own strength. It will only be from God.

     There’s been a lot of talk on this post of how masturbation is not a sin. Ignore that: to you it’s been a sin and to say that it isn’t sort of cheapens the difficulty you’ve gone through. If it’s not a sin, not doing it I think will still enrich your life (plus you’ve already learned a lot about your body that might benefit you in the future!) I will tell you this: I have felt an increase of spirituality in my life since I stopped. I don’t know if it’s a coincidence, but my doubts about God’s existence have gone, which had been persistent since I was about 16. I think we single folks get a special chance to really think and grapple with our sexuality. It’s hard to figure out how to be sexually mature and abstinent at the same time, but I think getting rid of guilt and showing God that we take his wishes for our chastity seriously will make our minds open to knowledge and enlightenment that God is just waiting to pour in. That’s been my experience at any rate…

     Comment by Just this once — October 16, 2006 @ 7:41 pm

169. I get the idea from the comments that part of the problem is that if a woman masturbates, she might enjoy it as much or more than sex with her (present or future) husband, and have something to compare him against. It seems to me that this is a benefit, not a drawback. It puts responsibility on the husband to learn and respond to his wife’s preferences; what does she enjoy about masturbation that he isn’t providing her in their lovemaking, and how can he incorporate it? She can also ask the same question about what she provides him. (The fact that much foreplay is essentially mutual masturbation may mean that adding foreplay to the routine would solve the problem. Another issue is that it’s a solitary activity with no pressure, so preferring that may indicate that the husband/wife has performance anxieties and needs support to be more confident.) I don’t see the value in saying “if you never do this thing that you may or may not enjoy, you’ll never know whether you like it and life will be simpler.”

     Comment by Dana — October 17, 2006 @ 11:31 am

170. re: #166 My husband is President of a University Singles Branch and when I read #67 I asked him if he wrote it. He didn’t, but after 30 years with him I thought he might have. He doesn’t usually read this blog unless I point something out but we had talked about it the evening before.

     Also you wrote, “…Or even a man for that matter” Hello-oh! my husband is usually a lot nicer than I am. Compassion and understanding are not just feminine territory.

     your [still] anonymous sister

     Comment by your anonymous sister — October 17, 2006 @ 5:42 pm

171. re: #170

     “Also you wrote, “…Or even a man for that matter” Hello-oh! my husband is usually a lot nicer than I am. Compassion and understanding are not just feminine territory.”

     I wasn’t referring to the niceness, compassion, or understanding. The choice of words and pattern of speech sounded feminine to me.

     Comment by Karter M — October 18, 2006 @ 7:57 am

172. FWIW I agree with fmhLisa #1 and comments in a similar vein.

     Comment by Kevin Barney — October 18, 2006 @ 11:13 am

173. I am a happily married LDS active woman, I have been married 8 years, I love my husband, we have a wonderful marriage…sometimes when we make love, he is too quick, and I do not orgasm, I have only ever had the little clit org…never an org like m…he doesnt touch me enough to make me aroused, he likes me to oral him..but wont do it to me, he hardly ever touches me “there”…I sometimes feel so let down that I dont have the same sexual experience as he does…I have m a few time in our marriage just to release those pent up feelings…after he has made love to me…but feel sooooooo guilty…that I may be dammed because it is dirty…or so i beleived…I am beginning to think it may be ok between married couples…on the few times I M, my thoughts were on my husband….TRUE…I have never fantasized about another man…I dont know if this is ok…

     Comment by Renay — November 13, 2006 @ 7:08 am

174. As someone else mentioned, someone quoted that 95% of people masturbate, and the other 5% are lying about not masturbating. It’s both good and bad, the good part is that it helps women to learn what satisfies them, and they pass what they learned on to their husbands. The bad side is that it can be addictive, or that a woman’s husband won’t be able to please her through sexual contact. As far as having a normal sex drive, it’s ok as long as it’s controlled and saved for marriage. In that case, sometimes masturbation is the lesser of the two evils.The worst evil would be acting upon the urges as a single adult.

     We humans are sexual creatures, it’s part of what makes us unique in that we enjoy sex for pleasure and not just for procreation like most other animals do. Even then, sex can be bad in that there are STD’s, adultery, pornography, and adultery.

     Comment by Adrienne — December 9, 2006 @ 4:34 pm

175. I left the church because ecclesiastical leaders had such black and white thinking about human sexuality and they made me feel horrible when I confessed to masturbation and having what I now recognize as a normal, healthy sex drive. I had guilt for years because I masturbated as a teen. I was even naive enough to think it caused fertility issues after I got married, as if God as punishing me for not being pure.

     The guilt has left over time, especially since I’ve started to see some fo the evidence from the medical field. Recently, a doctor on PBS even mentioned the importance of sexual release and the harmful physical effects of guilt.

     If I had read posts by people like fmhlisa before I resigned my membership, I might still be a member.

     Comment by please let me stay anon — December 9, 2006 @ 10:25 pm

176. My wife is an active Mormon and she masturbates regularly (at least a couple times a week) both manually and the assistance of a vibrator. In respond to #169, its true. Yes, she will enjoy it more than sex with her husband, and it is a benefit. Why? Because quite frankly intercourse doesn’t stimulate the part of the female anatomy that is responsible for orgasm. Is it a benefit? Yes. I don’t believe it infringes on our relationship and it in fact enhances our sexual relations with one another.

     She has told me that she believes that God gave women a clitoris for a reason, and that’s to diddle themselves. She’s done it since she was old enough to know how, and regularly since she was in her early twenties.

     For singles, and especially young adults, it gives them needed release and keeps them from needing to get sexually involved with a man–a potentially dangerous possibility.

     Historically, female Masturbation was not even recognized for what it is until the Church was well established, so it certainly isn’t a core belief that was considered wrong — to the contrary, early sisters probably went to their doctors for regular treatment of hysteria, just as women all around the country did in the 1860’s or whenever it was.

     The difference in the relationship? Ordinary sexual intercourse, even when it is successful for both partners in my experience gets a soft moan or sigh out of her, whereas masturbation gets literal screams of pleasure. And I mean loud, long, and genuine. Body gyrating and thrashing around. I imagine the pleasure is beyond anything a male ever feels.

     If you haven’t been able to feel this type of pleasure, then the myths propogated by religious society have actually robbed you of one of the sweetest gifts of nature to a woman. Reclaim it. For the men: Appreciating your wife’s pleasure in this activity will only enhance your own pleasure. There’s no better tease or turn-on than this. Encourage her to do it if she pleases, and don’t scare her away from it by making her think its bad or unworthy. Besides, if you do, she’d probably do it anyway when you aren’t around to appreciate it.

     I hope this comment helps some couples.

     Comment by Anonymous- — December 24, 2006 @ 3:16 am

177. I know this is not for 19 year old males generally but I need advice. I’m filling out my papers now to serve a mission in a few months, but I have had a problem with masturbation for 6 years. I have talked to the bishop before and overcame it for a few months, but keep messing up. I really want to serve a mission but need help quitting. How long do you have to be abstinent to go? Any good advice on quitting?

     Comment by Anonymous — December 31, 2006 @ 2:34 am

178. Maserbation is an act that will always be in the picture, and if the church was to punish everyone for doing it, their would be very little numbers remaining active in the church.

     That’s a fact.

     Comment by Ronald — January 6, 2007 @ 3:02 pm

179. Some bishops do punish even adults for masturbation.

     Comment by Bronwyn — January 6, 2007 @ 8:12 pm

180. I am not going to evaluate the Sin or not question. I am looking at this from more of psychological point of view. There is a cause and reason that we even in the church masturbate even though we believe it to be wrong. I appeciate the very astute Bishop’s response as it shows that there usually is an underlying issue that prompts this action and there is a reason that the person (male of female) needs it.
     I believe strongly that looking back on one’s life we may be able to find a reason or reasons that contribute to the need to masturbate (I uses this word as an action, not a condemnation in any way). I believe there are many reasons to the need - self love, self empowerment, attempt to self heal, and sometimes a need to simple distract ones self from serious issues much like taking drugs or drinking “helps” people who use those action for similar reasons. I believe the Lord knows why we do it. I believe He can help us understand the reason why and the issues that caused it or contributed to it. He understands each of us and our true motivations, needs and desires for self fulfillment. Using Masturbation I think is one way we try to release a need that was not fulfilled or we developed in a way that leads to this behavior.
     I prayed last night to know why this is an issue to me, and I recieved an answer, and much of it has to do with the fact the my mother was sexually molested, raped and thus in our home growing up there was zero hugging, affection displayed through touch etc. It was a sterile and almost tense environment. I have longed to be loved and cared for by someone who loves me and will show it through touching and caring for me (not sexually mind you). But this need and the fact that this upbringing also brought on a strong Attachment Disorder which leads me to be avoidant and try to fool myself to think i can do everything on my own, helps contribute to this action. Having a spouse who will not help me in this is saddening at the least.
     Now, I don’t know how to solve the situation, but maybe this is my test to see if I am willing to deny myself of that which i know can help heal me. Don’t know if any of this helps anyone, but I share it as where I am at in my journey to live and love as the Savior did and to enjoy Life as He knows it and can help us, is my prayer.

     Comment by MindStudy — February 3, 2007 @ 3:43 pm

181. Surely even the most rigid liberal feminists will concede
     1. that a woman’s orgasm involves different anatomical, physiological, and psychological processes;
     2. that male church leaders often overemphasize male concerns, and probably did not have women’s masturbation in mind;
     3. that the Brethren tend to lean on Relief Society conference and on the talks of female General Officer to deal with “women’s issues;”
     4. that General Conference talks from female General Officers, and Relief Society conferences do not address the topic of masturbation.

     Some bishops do punish even adults for masturbation.

     Adult *men*, yes, but have you ever heard of an LDS woman disciplined for masturbation? Have you ever seen a talk in General Conference or an address from the First Presidency that specifically referenced female masturbation? There’s a good reason that most talks on masturbation appear in the conference priesthood. A guy usually gets off while thinking inappropriate thoughts about others (particularly while viewing or remembering porn), and this hardly seems like the same thing as a woman discovering how her own body works and what gives her pleasure. Male self-stimulation always comes naturally without any sort of instruction. Some women would never even have an orgasm ever, or come to understand their bodies without some instruction and exploration.

     If the spirit tells you that what you’re doing is wrong, or excessive, then follow your conscience. If there’s pornography or other sexual coveting involved (this seems to be the Brethren’s main concern with male masturbation), then there are other commandments there which apply. Sometimes (particularly with sexual issues) unreasonable and excessive guilt can be part of what traps us. I’m just saying that you should ask yourself whether the guilt that you are feeling might not be like feeling guilty because you haven’t finished building your Ark yet.

     Do the rules on masturbation apply to women, or whether they are exclusively directed towards males? Maybe some sister should ask this to the Relief Society Presidency.

     Comment by Christian — February 3, 2007 @ 5:16 pm

182. I have a huge problem with assigning a particular philosophy regarding this issue to be “normative.” While there are indeed some studies that suggest masturbation is healthy, there are others that find it is NOT. In particular, there’s a body of literature surrounding the issue of “transference,” that there are women who learn to masturbate, but then find they can only have an orgasm through self-stimulation and not with their husband….and so maybe couples therapy, teaching them stimulation together, would be a better approach. And I should hasten that these are not just LDS therapists, we’re talking peer-reviewed stuff.

     Please link! I had not seen or heard of this. In fact, I’ve never seen anything, from the church or from the scientific community, speaking against female masturbation.

     I disagree with Lisa#1 except as applied to women. Male masturbation is often an addiciton, Male masturbation can and often does undermine a man’s possible future sexual relationships, Male masturbation can and often does devalue and replace sex, and when porn is available, Male masturbation often leads to porn use.

     The thread seems to suggest that at least one woman feels that she’s addicted to masturbation. Maybe I’m wrong about things being different for women, but it seems to me that the rush of doing something that you believe is forbidden can itself be addictive, and shame forms a part of many cyclical behaviors.

     Comment by Christian — February 3, 2007 @ 6:53 pm

183. I’m male and would like to comment. First, it would help to know my history very briefly.

     As a child I was sexually abused by a teenage boy, and that caused me some significant problems sexually for many years. Eventually I got into Porn and Masturbation but cleaned up enough to go on a mission. Once back, I had more problems. Cleaning up Porn is much easier for me than Masturbation — the chemical part of the addiction. At any rate, I’m still single and dealing with these issues.

     And, against what MANY people have commented in this blog, many times masturbation for males isn’t just about the impure thoughts. Many times it is just to get the rush.

     Of course, it is wrong in both cases, and is a sin. I have suffered immense guilt every time, and your above comments have helped me realize that *much* of the guilt and feelings like I won’t ever be able to get over it come from satan, and that only some of it is from God (the godly sorrow part).

     As for confession, every time after masturbating and trying to repent with God I felt unable to receive full forgiveness, and so I confessed. However, by far most of the literature of the church that I have read suggests that it isn’t needed for masturbation. The recent pamphlet of the church on pornography talks about how “if you accidently stumble on it, confession to the bishop may not be necessary” and how “if you go looking for it, you do need to confess” (slightly paraphrased).

     In a book on preparing for temple marriage down in Brasil, I read a quote from Spencer W. Kimball that said basically that you need to confess to the bishop when you arouse the emotions in “another’s body”, so not referring to yourself (I wish I’d written down the exact reference).

     Still, I have been unable to feel completely clean from masturbation until after I speak with a bishop. Often this leads my thinking like this: “Well, I haven’t committed a sin worthy of confessing to the Bishop and feel like I need to confess to him, so maybe I’ll get into a little porn so that it is bad enough”. Yeah, horrible thought pattern there. Many times, the fact that I feel like I have to confess masturbation has led me into worse sins indirectly… I’m beginning to see how all of that guilt might not come from God and how if I just repent of the masturbation directly to Him that I don’t need to confess to the bishop… Most of the literature of the church (and thanks for your comments #81 and others including the bishops who posted) doesn’t say you need to confess it to the bishop.

     A good quote that gives me a little comfort in my struggle (and may give it to others):
     Thousands of temptations assail, and you make a miss here and a slip there, and say that you have not lived up to all the knowledge you have. True; but often it is a marvel to me that you have lived up to so much as you have, considering the power of the enemy upon this earth. Few that have ever lived have fully understood that power. I do not fully comprehend that awful power and influence Satan has upon the earth, but I understand enough to know that it is a marvel that the Latter-day Saints are as good as they are.
     
     (Discourses of Brigham Young, p 80)

     It is a sin, but it isn’t the worst of sins.

     That’s a long post, but hopefully it helps someone else.
     -StockMarket-

     Comment by StockMarket — March 8, 2007 @ 2:05 am

184. I really enjoyed reading all these posts, the pros and cons - all of them. I think it a blessing that we can share our challenges, whatever they may be (and we all have them) and find comfort in knowing we are not alone. I believe the Church is about Jesus Christ and his love for us and how we serve others. We will always have our private struggles, always. Topic: I was widowed at the age of 39 and my future marriage prospects are dim at best. I own a vibrator and a dildo which I use occasionally. It makes me feel validated as a functional, vibrant woman, and as a result, happy. No bishop has asked me anything beyond living the LoC, which I know I do. Period. My job is to serve and help others. Any guilt that I may feel would diminish what I feel is my mission here on earth

     Comment by newbie — March 22, 2007 @ 10:37 pm

185. I am in the military and have been called away from my wife for long periods of time. Moreover, she is hitting menopause, which can cause painful intercourse. This combination of circumstances led to great sexual tension in our marriage, and misery and guilt while I was deployed. Our marriage has grown to such a degree that this sexual tension became our single biggest obstacle, notwithstanding the pressures of war and raising a houseful of kids.
     One day I woke up and realized I was feeling immense guilt for my sex drive and the pain it caused my wife and me when I requested sex and got a sigh or a no. I realized how stupid the situation was. Here I am, raising children and serving the nation, and sex is causing the biggest problem in our marriage. I researched the Church’s position anew, and also researched Christian websites and sources. I realized that masturbation without fantasizing about one other than one’s wife, without porn, and in order to relieve sexual tension, was not sinful. Moreover, it was practical. Our marriage has improved dramatically since I began to occasionally relieve my sexual tension, and I can move on to more important things, like working together with my wife to bring her to sexual fulfillment on the occasions when she is so inclined, and raise good and ethical children.
     Some might say that I have failed to control myself. I am sorry. I am done suffering. I have things to DO that are more important than something Boyd K. Packer might have said long ago when we were all stressed about drinking Coke. If something helps me get my work on this planet done and edify those around me, then I will do it. Those that get in my way will have to step aside.

     Comment by gonetowar — April 16, 2007 @ 3:05 pm

186. RE: #’s 176 and 184- Right on!!!!!!

     The only other thing i have to add-The guilt i felt for so many years nearly led to suicidal depression…now i have finally been able to love and accept my body as a gift.

     What goes on in the privacy of my bedroom is MY business.i think its bizarre to discuss my sexuality with my Bishop.

     Comment by EagleLover07 — May 4, 2007 @ 3:37 am

187. Hi everybody! I am a 22 year old women and am a member of the LDS church and just had a question about masturbation in marriage. I’m aware that masturbation outside of marriage is for sure considered something to avoid (regardless of whether a person sees it as a big sin or a negative habit). But what about masturbation when you are married? If you can engage in sexual activity in the bounds of marriage, then can you masturbate as well? I read somewhere that mutual masturbation is acceptable, but what about solo masturbation? By the way, did anyone else know that Utah is one of the top states for at-home girl parties (and I’m not talking about tupperwear - I mean sex toys for anyone who doesn’t know). And while a women can use sex toys with her husband and for purposes other than masturbation, I believe personal vibrators are the big seller. If anybody has any thouhts or answers to my question that would me great.

     Comment by Summer — May 13, 2007 @ 12:56 pm

188. I’m aware that masturbation outside of marriage is for sure considered something to avoid (regardless of whether a person sees it as a big sin or a negative habit). But what about masturbation when you are married?

     The practices you adopt within your marriage are between you and your spouse and the Lord. Consult with the other two and then proceed as seems best to the three of you.

     Comment by obi-wan — May 13, 2007 @ 11:25 pm

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