Infertility: growing pains suck.

By: Janet - October 16, 2006

Before the world was created, in heavenly councils the pattern and role of women were prescribed. You were elected by God to be wives and mothers in Zion . . . Since the beginning, a woman’s first and most important role has been ushering into mortality spirit sons and daughters of our Father in Heaven.–Ezra Taft Benson, “The Honored Place of women” Ensign (November 1981): 105.

The body and the spirit are the soul of man–D&C 88:15

When the prophets speak of the exalted place of motherhood, I do not growl. I agree. And then I grieve.

Many people have noted the problematic nature of the analogy which partners motherhood with priesthood as the respective female and male responsibilities in this life, usually by noting that fatherhood functions as the companion to motherhood. For me the crux of the problem lies with the fact that since 1978, all worthy men can hold the priesthood. All worthy women, however, cannot be mothers. Someday perhaps a social worker will bestow the title “Mama” upon me (at least I desperately, desperately hope so!), but my body won’t be ushering any spirits into the world. Thus, President Benson’s qoutation causes me pain because it implies that, as a childless woman, I have failed my “first and most important role” in this terrestrial realm.

I have meant to write this post since Lisa first asked me to do a guest stint. I wanted to write something academic, something intellectually and spiritually stimulating. It turns out I can no more write about infertility in an intellectually detached fashion than I could stand naked in front of a room full of people while teaching an anatomy lesson. Of all the trials in my life, this is the only one which renders my soul naked.

I use the term “soul” for specific doctrinal–rather than dramatic–purposes. Quite obviously infertility creates a problem for women embedded in a culture which legitimizes feminity almost entirely through motherhood. In the time since my husband and I discovered that we would likely have no biological children, I’ve become the embodied locus of this cultural struggle. Some women apologize to me when they get pregnant; others avoid me altogether. Some offer charming opinions on what sins I may have committed such that God would rescind from me the blessings of motherhood. (For the record, these are usually the same folks who imply that adoption is a merely a consolation prize, that somehow my future adopted kids won’t be “really” mine–so obviosly I should ignore them entirely.) Some say this happened to me, and not to them, because I am “so much stronger.” I’m sympathetic to their difficulties in placing people like me into a convenient cosmology. Certainly we could parse out these cultural tensions in any number of useful ways. Still, it is not my abundantly fecund culture which most troubles barren old me. It is the violent divorce of my soul.

LDS doctrine strays from the rest of Christianity with its renegade contention that the soul is composed of both spirit and body. One half of my soul, my spirit, desperately wants to fulfill the promise I made in the temple to multiply and replenish the earth–in fact, my spiritual desire to be a mommy has always run second only to my desire to know God. I am laughably, ridiculously, hyperbolically maternal. Yet the flesh and blood portion of my soul renders the desires of the spirit impossible. And while I’m grateful for medical advancement, the endless rounds of drugs–specifically intended to disconnect brain/ovarian body communication–disrupt my ability to “read” my own body. The stirrups, the scans, the needles, the countless time spent staring at the tiles in the doctor’s office all remind me that I control almost nothing. Should my body ever bear a child, the pregnancy will result from third and fourth party knowledge and manipulation of my body rather than from an act of love between me and my husband. I have ceded control of my corporeal self to a bunch of men in white coats. I learned a long time ago that my body is me, that Joseph Smith’s prophetic utterance about the soul jived spot-on with my experiences. My blood carries the heat of my passions and my limbs carry out the choices I make in spirit, both working together to build whoever it is I am. I have a testimony of that doctrine–I even love it, and that’s no small thing for a woman who suffers from several incurable autoimmune diseases.

But when it comes to infertility, my soul cannot work in concert. It remains bifurcated, and I am learning to hate half of my own soul. And when I don’t feel hatred towards my bodily half, I don’t feel that it is mine at all–then it’s just a lab rat which brilliant scientists have taken from me in their sincere desire to mend what nature made wrong. Now, I believe Paul’s words that “all things work together for good to them that love God”; I have to believe it in order to avoid becoming bitter towards a God whom I utterly adore. But I can’t see how my soul will reconcile. I don’t know how to “feel like a woman” not just because a prophet located the center of womanhood in a place I cannot go, but because the woman I am has been ripped in half. When we are broken, we are open to God. What grace will come to this cracked place where the two halves of my soul used to join?

That is the question of my current life. That and whether or not I will ever hear a tiny little voice call me “mama.”

127 Comments »

  1. Thank you for your words. While I don’t know if I do or don’t have any fertility issues, I wonder the same thing. I’m 29 and unmarried. Once a month my body announces loudly “Another one bites the dust!” I want to be a mother so bad it hurts.
    I took care of my nephew for seven months and at the end I felt like my own child was being taken from me and there was nothing I could do about it. The most beautiful part of my day was when he would see me for the first time in the morning. I find myself hating teenage mothers who seem to have no idea how blessed they are.
    Whether through adoption or your own biology I pray you will be blessed to have a child. Who knows why neither you or I have had that opportunity yet, but when it happens I know a child knows who his mother is by who loves him the best whether that child comes from our own DNA or someone else’s.
    Even though I don’t know you, from your words I believe that when you do have a little one who calls you “mama,” that little child will be the luckiest child in the whole world!

    Comment by Heidi — October 16, 2006 @ 1:50 am

  2. Heidi, you are incredibly sweet and I thank you for your kind, kind words. I worry that I might be “losing my touch” with kiddos as I get older without having any. But like you, when I end a stint of child care my heart really hurts. (Last year I cared for the most lovely and adorable little girls from Africa when their mom, a friend of mine, was in the hospital–they called me “Mama Auntie” and how cute is that???) I also hear the monthly timer buzz loudly in my ears. Men are so spoiled with that regeneration of sperm thing!

    I know a child knows who his mother is by who loves him the best whether that child comes from our own DNA or someone else’s.

    Thanks for that. I suffer from a fear my kids won’t like me and will spend their entire lives wishing their birth parents hadn’t placed them for adoption. Paranoid I know!

    I hope you get to be a mommy (and a wife–it’s fun) soon. You sound like you’d be a wonderful mama.

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 2:02 am

  3. Just a word from an adoptee…. I
    have only one mother of my soul.
    We met when I was 18 months old.
    I will forever be thankful for her and
    for the gift of a good life that adoption brought to both our lives.

    Comment by remembrancer — October 16, 2006 @ 2:30 am

  4. There was a lady in one of my previous wards whose teenage daughter became pregnant. She wnted to keep the baby and so did the rest of the family. They fasted and prayed about it for a long time. The answer that they got was that this was not their child. This child belonged to someone else who couldn’t have children. Anyway, I thought it was a beautiful testimony of adoption and that God is aware of our pains and trials and how he often uses other people as answers to our prayers. Adoption is a beautiful thing and Janet, you sound like you would be a wonderful mother. Lood luck to you and your husband!

    Comment by purplesandel — October 16, 2006 @ 5:49 am

  5. I’ve dealt with a lot of those same issues. I’ve felt a lot of those same feelings. Even though I am now a mother (through adoption) those feelings haven’t entirely gone away. I’m still infertile. But, I just know it’s one of those things I have to deal with. I don’t want this comment to be a downer. Getting our children has been one of the greatest blessings in our lives and I really know and feel that I am their mother. I guess I’m just saying that you can probably not expect the feelings you’re having about infertility to go away.

    Comment by Christy — October 16, 2006 @ 6:29 am

  6. Janet, thanks for making me cry first thing in the morning! Last night I had a dream that my mother died in a fire and that I could see her and not be near her or soothe her pain. Despite our drama-filled relationship, I love her more than I know how to express. I have always wanted children and to be part of that special secret “club” of mothers, but it looks like it won’t happen for me.
    To see my dh hold a new baby during Sacrement Meeting (this happens just about every Sunday-we have a young ward and he loves the babies) just breaks my heart because I know that I can’t give that to him. We still play the game of “what we want our children to be like” but my enthusiasm for pretend time is starting to wane.
    I don’t even have a monthly reminder (it’s synthetic when I do have one) to make me feel like a woman. When people find out that I don’t have periods, they feign jealousy but that just hurts me even more. I don’t understand why doctors have discovered the magic little blue pill for men, but have no clue about women’s health. Every single docter I go to tells me that they don’t know what’s wrong and gives me that “you have too many hormones and need to calm down” look. All I want is answers, not a looming cloud of darkness hanging over my head. It’s good to know that someone else understands this pain.

    Comment by Arya — October 16, 2006 @ 7:09 am

  7. Thank you for this poignant post.

    I had two miscarriages before my first live birth (and two more miscarriages following), in a married student ward. While I only had four years to contemplate what options we might have should I be unable to carry a baby to term (compared with many years for those struggling with infertility), I remember it changed me into a recluse for a while–I had a hard time coping with all the new babies being born into our ward, seemingly every week. Worse, though, were the assumptions by the ignorant that we weren’t following prophetic counsel to not delay a family. I’m generally pretty stoic, but thoughtless comments and questions could reduce me to tears, and so I avoided a lot of contact with ward members when I could help it. For all our talk of bearing one another’s burdens and mourning with those that mourn, our emphatic (and sometimes myopic) emphasis on marriage and children often alienates those who need comforting the most.

    Comment by Idahospud — October 16, 2006 @ 8:37 am

  8. My heart aches for you as it did for me when I was in similar shoes. Shortly after the birth of my son (now 22), I made the decision to make permanent my choice for no more children. Years later my husband and I realized that someone one was missing from our family and set about to reverse my surgery. In the end, nothing could be done and I too grieved - odd since the choice had been mine - but no less painful.

    Six year ago we adopted a newborn through LDS Services and he is no less my spiritual son than is my “natural” born son. Yes, all worthy men can hold the priesthood, but so can all worthy women be mothers. The route and circumstances may vary for us, but the blessings yielded are that much richer.

    You have failed at nothing. You want the righteous desires of your heart granted. That they have not yet been does not imply failure, which you likely recognize.

    I know this is little consolation when your arms ache for a little one. You deserve to mother a child. My prayers will include you today - you are not alone.

    Comment by Annastasia — October 16, 2006 @ 8:39 am

  9. Janet, thanks for writing this. I know there is no way to ease the ache right now but I hope it helps to know you are not alone, and I testify to you that God does not see infertility as a failure. This is a trial given to the daughters (and sons, but so often it strikes deeper at the mother heart) who have the specific personality or talents required to do the deep digging required to get through it and emerge stronger.

    For me: I think IF is what it took to teach me that the gospel is not really all about families. It is about Jesus Christ - about atonement, repentance, healing and salvation. Power and grace beyond my own. It took that earthquake in my life to get me focused on Him. Because of that I would not change it.

    Arya, have you seen a reproductive endocrinologist? That is the kind of doctor you need to see. Forget about getting answers from anyone else, even many OB/GYNs. (You couldn’t pay me enough to go into an OB/GYN’s office during the dark years. All those pregnant women! Torture!)

    For all the infertile people reading this, I have just one thing to say. You are going to get there. When parenthood is really in your heart, it is so rare to get off the train before the destination. Adoption can be a miracle and an adoption sealing in the temple makes up for an awful lot of nights of crying yourself to sleep. I hope you find your baby soon.

    Comment by Ana — October 16, 2006 @ 8:41 am

  10. Do people really equate your infertility as a consequence of sin and further their ignorance with actually giving you their opinion?

    Wow…that has just floored me. How do you keep from smacking them?

    If I’m not overstepping my boundaries, have you considered foster parenting? It’s such a needed service. My husband and I are considering it when my youngest gets into school.

    Comment by Becky..Absent Minded Housewife — October 16, 2006 @ 9:06 am

  11. Re: #10: Can’t speak for janet, but on my mission, my companion told me of a very spiritual experience she’d had with an investigator couple. She felt strongly prompted to tell them that God was witholding their children (their were infertile) until they decided to be baptized. This companion couldn’t understand why the couple quit seeing the missionaries. I couldn’t understand why I didn’t clobber my companion on their behalf.

    I had my own experience with not having kids. I knew I was too messed up emotionally to have kids, so I postponed having them until I felt ready. For some people, this might not be a good choice, but I needed time (and the lifelearning that comes with time) to get my crap together. Finally, at 32, I felt I’d learned enough about patience, empathy, unconditional love, caretaking, etc. that I felt ready. However, my body didn’t know I needed that extra time, and reacted like a 32-year old body–first pregnancy ended in miscarriage, then a baby at age 34, then another miscarriage, then my last baby at age 37.

    I wish I could have had more kids. I feel like I should have. I don’t know if the feelings are due to cultural pressure or spiritual pressure. But I know I am too old–physically and emotionally, and financially it would be too hard. But I had my days of avoiding the baby sections of supermarkets–there’s something about the smell of fresh pampers. And I too hated, hated, hated teenage moms–as a therapist, it was right after my first D&C that I decided I could no longer work with bad parents. I remember saying that to get pregnant, maybe I too should start doing crack–it seemed to work for my clients!

    Comment by janescott — October 16, 2006 @ 9:53 am

  12. I don’t think the longing children/ more children ever goes away.
    It’s hard when people assume that just because you have some, you can have more.

    Comment by mami — October 16, 2006 @ 11:47 am

  13. I worried a little about my comment about hating teenage moms, but I really do. I’m glad someone else feels the same way. thanks.

    Comment by Heidi — October 16, 2006 @ 11:53 am

  14. I feel like a foreigner who just doesn’ t get it. I have been married for 5 years, am 27 years old, and have no desire or longing at all for kids. None. I feel like its one of those things on my ‘to do’ list cause its what I am supposed to do, but I don’t really want to. My husband is the same way. Everyone always chides us telling us to have kids now anyways cause we’ll regret it. But, I’ve prayed about it alot, and I always get the feeling I just need to chill out and every thing will work out in time. That I don’t need to rush it. Thats it. But, I feel like something is wrong with me for not wanting kids (and it generally doesn’t help when family/ward members assume you want them and think you are weird for not wanting to babysit).

    I have always had the impression ever since I was a teenager that I would adopt kids. I never knew if this would be because that was the only option I had or because thats what I wanted to do. But we truly feel like there are kids meant for us that will not be born to us. Just not…now. And I am glad its not now (even besides the fact that adopting is very expensive). Hows that for not fitting into my religious culture.

    I wish I could just ‘trade’ you fertility…I would gladly give you mine…but, that probably just frustrates those dealing with this even more.

    Comment by Vertitas — October 16, 2006 @ 12:15 pm

  15. The intensity of my saddness and desperation keeps growing. When I was 25, I started to have severe troubles with my reproductive system. I had a surgery then and thought I was cured. When I got married at 28, the problem returned (stupid me for trying birth control–totally messed up my hormones). I had a couple more surgeries that didn’t help. I ended up in the hospital for 3 days receiving 2 blood transfusions. We tried fertility treatments but the cycle of anemia hasn’t stopped long enough to try again.

    DH and I are considering adoption. I fear that the young women working with LDS Social Services are not going to want to give their child to an obese couple in their 30s living in an apartment in LA. And I worry about the open adoption trend–my parents adopted me as a newborn and I have never met my birth mother. Maybe some day I will but I am so glad I didn’t have a special “aunt” in my life. We have looked at some foreign adoptions. Russia, for instance, requires parents to own a home. Not likely to happen until we can move out of LA.

    I guess I should feel lucky that DH and I are happy to be together, even if a child doesn’t come along.

    Thank you for letting me share this.

    Comment by AngelaM — October 16, 2006 @ 12:20 pm

  16. This is beautifully written. God bless you for sharing it.

    As a person who *hasn’t* struggled with infertility, I feel that I have little or nothing to add to the discussion. I just want to honor your struggle by listening. (In the reading sense, I mean. :)

    Comment by madhousewife — October 16, 2006 @ 12:48 pm

  17. Excellent post, though I’m bothered by the notion (#9) that infertility doesn’t wreak havoc on the hearts of God’s sons to the same extent as is does to his daughters. Maybe all the centuries of blaming infertility on the “barrenness” of women is to blame for this mindset.

    My wife and I (both RMs) have extremely detailed patriarchal blessings. Both blessings have large portions speaking of our “children, born under the covenant,” due to my wife’s “fruitful loins.” The wording is eloquent and inspirational, but sadly, has failed the test. The same could be said of temple rites and failed priesthood blessings.

    Here’s the kicker, our infertility is my fault, not hers. My urologist is convinced my over-exposure to harmful insecticides altered my body’s ability to make viable sperm for reproduction. You ask, “How was I exposed to the insecticides?” Here’s how, in order to fund a mission my bishop hooked me up with a high-paying job (for an eighteen year old). The job was with a local Mormon-owned pest-control company. I worked long days (sometime 14 hrs. +) spraying all kinds of powerful chemicals. In the course of a regular day I would get covered in the stuff, which in the high-heat summer, got absorbed into my blood stream, and now is the likely culprit of our “barrenness.” So my choice to earn sufficient money to serve a mission directly affected my ability to be a father. Isn’t that a cool story?

    How did my patriarch not receive revelation on this? Is God a jokester? Priesthood blessings haven’t healed me, are they even legit? How does one reconcile failed temple blessings in a situation like ours? Should I apply the “by their fruits ye shall know them” test to my religion in this situation? (Maybe it’s time to hit the door and drop religion; I’d receive an instant ten percent raise.) The church leaders try to quell our questions with words like “just adopt,” or “maybe it’s not God’s will.” The big-gun leaders seem to be out of touch on this subject and/or don’t really care, which makes sense because infertile couples are really no more useful to the growth of the church as singles or homosexuals, except that we’re counseled to adopt via the incompetent LDS family services. In other words, we like the gays and the singles are the freaks, and the general membership/leaders don’t want to see us or honestly deal with us.

    Also, I contend that in the Mormon world, being a childless male is just as reviled as being a childless female. We frustrate the plan, the families-together-forever ideal. Though my wife and I are both in our thirties, we are treated like psuedo-adults. Oh well, a lot of my married friends with children seem to not like them or each other much. Maybe being childless is the ultimate blessing because I actually love my wife and can’t stand not being with her. Most men/women in the church seem to adore extra meetings (PEC, welfare, etc.) that separate them from their spouse/kids.

    Read this post:
    http://ldsliberationfront.net/?p=158

    Comment by Carlton — October 16, 2006 @ 1:20 pm

  18. Vertitas,
    You shouldn’t feel alone. I know many women who never got “baby-hungry”. One friend of mine had 5 children–because she felt like it was a commandment to have children. She says it was the hardest commandment for her to keep.

    To all those who want to adopt and think it is not free–it is. There are agencies–specifically in CA that you can adopt young children for free from-and you don’t have to own a house. But it won’t be a newborn.

    I think a lot of times people think a foreign adoption will solve everthing, it won’t.

    Comment by mami — October 16, 2006 @ 1:22 pm

  19. Oh Janet, this is just the most beautifully painful post. I just wish I could make it better for you. Being helpless stinks.

    Annastasia,
    Please think things through before you say things like this: “Yes, all worthy men can hold the priesthood, but so can all worthy women be mothers.” It’s just not true. As has been mentioned here, single women with in Church are discouraged from adopting. And women who do not have the financial means to invest in fertility treatments or adoption, both of which are very expensive. Or Women with chronic illness or mental/phyical disabilities that make motherhood impossible.

    And there is one more subject that I really want to address, and that being the hating of teenaged mothers. I realize that neither of you were probably truly serious, but as you did not qualify your statements at all . . . perhaps I should address it. While I do totally “get” the emotions, and I thinks its natural and understandable to feel that way. I also think one of the most noble things we can learn as human beings is that there are all kinds of trials in this life, and all kinds of pain. Comparing or dismissing the pain/trials of others is a grave error. I do see how painfully ironic the agony of teenaged motherhood must feel to a woman who’s soul feels torn to shreads for wanting exactly what is causing that girl’s pain. But her pain is real. Her trials are often severe. Her pain does not make yours any less real or less important, and it is pain worthy of empathy, just as yours is.

    Which brings me to a question. How do we, as women, as sisters, negotiate these painfully unfair disparities of fertility (and life) in our actions and in our conversations. It makes my heart ache for Janet to hear the reactions she gets from the lucky mothers-to-be around her. And I myself have been sick every time I’ve had to tell my sister (who’s been struggling with infertility for ten years) that I’m pregnant, again. She’s been so generous and happy for me, and yet, I want to be able to say something, to do something, for her, and yet I can’t think of what.

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 16, 2006 @ 1:38 pm

  20. Mami,
    I’ve never heard of free adoption. My sister and bil have been trying to adopt almost as long as they’ve been struggling with infertility. They can not afford infertility treatments. They don’t care if they get a beautiful perfect white baby. But they are also blue collar and scrapping to get by finacially, and they always will be. So far they’ve dumped thousands they do not have into the state, and LDS social services and have not seen so much as an adoption nibble. Perhaps there is more they could do, but one of the problems of limited resources is that err. . . well you have limited resources, and that means that when money is in short supply, time and energy usually are too.

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 16, 2006 @ 1:53 pm

  21. Lisa,
    My friend is going through the process right now, and I hope to someday.
    I can send you the info if you want–really, it is free.

    Comment by mami — October 16, 2006 @ 2:17 pm

  22. Yes Mami, please do.

    Carlton,
    That story seriously sucks. I would agree that the pain of infertility isn’t a gender based problem. As Veritas and you yourself make so clear. I suppose that’s one of the (many) reasons why I’m having such a hard time figuring out the purpose of all this gender proscription within church culture/doctrine.

    Comment by fMhLisa — October 16, 2006 @ 2:38 pm

  23. It is true that men are heartbroken over infertility as much as women. I am a 29 yr old newlywed and I have had menstrual issues my whole life and am unsure as to whether I could even get pregnant. My husband had a horrible incident happen when he was a teenager that left him virtually “shooting blanks”, doctors say maybe if he lost some weight there is a possibility he could produce some healthy sperm but that is looking like false hope at this time. He is devistated, he wants to be a father as much as I want to be a mother but we have both come to terms with our issues and cannot wait to adopt.

    We have seen the blessings and miracles of adoption first hand in several instances. There is no doubt in my mind that the children that are adopted are meant for these families. My brother just adopted his fiancee’s little baby and no lie, the baby looks just like him and our grandfather but he is not my brother’s biological son. I have an adopted uncle whom my younger brother is the spitting image of. Heavenly Father knows us, I believe we were families in the premortal world and we were all meant to be together and if we can’t make it to this earth through the body of one mother we make it through another.

    I am so gratful for the temple ordinances through which these little ones can be sealed to us for time and all eternity, making them our children spiritually which I feel is even more important than physically. I have always grown up feeling that I would adopt children someday and I am looking foward to that day in the near future.

    Comment by newlywedcndn — October 16, 2006 @ 2:51 pm

  24. I personally think it can feel like more of a personal failure for men to not be able to procreate than for women. I don’t think it is a church thing–but a cultural thing–maybe the whole world culture. In our culture it is often, in my opinion, to open when discussing fertility. Women are always talking about fertility it seems, even in mixed company, but have you ever heard a man say in open he has a problem?
    In some cultures it is so taboo for a man to have a problem it is not even discussed as a possibility.
    Even now the fertility of men is barely being studied–and the recent suggestions that autism and other ailments are linked to paternal age at conception, whereas for women birth defects and late materal conception have been studied and acknowledged for decades. We have a long way to go in gender equality, don’t we.

    Comment by mami — October 16, 2006 @ 3:06 pm

  25. I’m glad so many people understand that the grief over not being able to have children biologically is different from the grief of not having a child in your home–they really are extremely different causes of pain. I’ve always felt that I’d adopt, and if fact used to argue vehemently with DH about it (it took IF to get him on the adoption train); I just thought I’d have biological children as well.

    Many of us IF women will experience most aspects of motherhood eventually, and I’m sure we’re all IMMENSELY grateful for the adoption option (although, as fmhLisa notes, it’s not always possible–a history of mental illness or potentially fatal disease can prevent a couple from adopting. I thank God every day that my ailments aren’t actually life-threatening, or we’d be childless forever). Still, I won’t ever feel a baby move inside of me for the first time. I will never see a little foot on an ultrasound screen. I will never feel a baby hiccup in my tummy. A dear friend once commented to me how sad she was when her baby first started taking food that wasn’t from her, because for the first time that baby wasn’t just composed of her cells. I’ll never have that, either.

    I understand not liking pregnant teens, but I will say this: the only thing more painful than not having the experience I list above would be having them, and then giving the baby up. My heart breaks for those girls and I think Heavenly Father must consider them heroic.

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 3:55 pm

  26. Carlton, thanks for your comments. I wish I had answers for your questions–that’s the sort of experience that would land me in an asylum. You’re quite the guy to still be struggling rather than throwing in the proverbial towel ages ago, I’d say. You have my sympathy and a good measure of empathy as well. Perhaps the largest reason I posted about IF was becuase we’re culturally silent on the issue, and enough other women have sobbed on my shoulder to convince me that this cultural silence is slowly killing IF couples throughout the church.

    I’d always assumed IF was harder for women because men were never going to be pregnant anyhow, but now I realize that’s radically oversimplifying things. General American culture equates masculinity and virility, and that as difficult to negotiate as the womanhood = mothehrhood construct in Mormonism. Plus, the marital guilt would be the same regardless of gender. I actually feel better in some ways now that I know both me and my DH have IF issues–I don’t feel quite so much like I’m destroying his life by virtue of my brokenness.

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 4:01 pm

  27. fmhLisa asks THE question for the church–how should we deal with IF as a community? My best friends have, for the most part, treated me exactly as I want to be treated–as their friend, who will therefore rejoice with them when happiness (including pregnancies) come their way and expect them to mourn with me in my grief. These friends don’t tippytoe around the topic ‘cuz they know I’m not the sort of person who prefers silence to speech. They adjudicate how to interact with me with their knowledge of who I am rather than with a generalized notion of “infertile women.” IN fact, my BF is pregnant and has been recently bedridden. It meant the world to me that she’d bitch and moan about morning sickness and let me cook for her, because it meant she trusted me to recognize the validity of her trial and knew me well enough to realize I didn’t think it invalidated my own. Fertile people should mostly just be sensitive and figure out how each infertile friend wants to be treated rather than assuming there’s one magic solution.

    And as a church, we need to talk about it WAY more often. One in seven couples will experience infertility, yet only a tiny handful of articles have ever appeared in the Ensign (6, I think). They’ve been good personal essays, but some doctrinal treatment of the subject would be refreshing. A general cultural openness would be a Godsend. Which is why I started this thread :) I think we generally feel discomfort in the presence of another person’s pain, yet paradoxically one of the main obligations of taking on Christ’s name is to bear each other’s burdens. We have to recognize pain–not just to try and fix it (a response which only works for certain things), but simply to offer witness. That sort of sisterhood helps everyone in the scenerio come closer to each other and to Jesus Christ.

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 4:12 pm


  28. To all those who want to adopt and think it is not free–it is. There are agencies–specifically in CA that you can adopt young children for free from-and you don’t have to own a house. But it won’t be a newborn.

    Mami–do share this information!

    Also, what do all of you think of surrogacy? A friend I grew up with has had 7 children with 6 different fathers, and was only married to one of them (don’t judge too harshly!) When she was pregnant a couple of years ago, she told me she had considered asking if we would adopt the baby. She, DH and I didn’t feel right about it. She has offered to be a surrogate for us, however.

    Does anyone know the church’s stance on this?

    Comment by AngelaM — October 16, 2006 @ 5:34 pm

  29. I spent several years thinking I’d never be a mother, and I always hated reading the Ensign. It seemed like there was an article in almost every issue about the importance of having children - and I would (quite literally) scream at the magazine, saying, “Don’t you think I’m trying, you moron?!?” (Except my language was a bit more colorful than that. Sometimes I think I should be a sailor; I have the mouth to match it.) It always surprised me when I reacted like that, because in other ways, I saw it as a blessing - surely God wouldn’t hold me accountable for something that wasn’t my fault, and think of how much more money we’d have for fun things!

    When I got pregnant, I spent pretty much the entire pregnancy feeling guilty. Why me? Why not my sister, who was married in the temple (I wasn’t), who has gone through all the fertility treatments (I didn’t), who has a mother personality (I don’t)? Sometimes I look at my child - who has my sister’s eyes and my sister’s nose - and I think, I was given her baby. God made some fundamental mistake here; she was intended for my sister.

    I don’t know why I was blessed. I am so grateful for it; but I still feel guilty that it happened to me.

    Comment by Quimby — October 16, 2006 @ 5:36 pm

  30. Janet,

    Excellent! My wife and I are in total agreement with the words you’ve written. Sadly, our leaders seem to be reaction-al, not revelation-al these days. For example, only recently they’ve tried to doctrinally address, and poorly at that, the plight of homosexual members in our church culture. I ran into quite a few gay church members way back in 1991, in SLC, on my mission. The timing of the lift of the priesthood ban could be interpreted in like manner. If the leaders can’t foresee maybe they are really out of touch. I hate to say that but the evidence is mounting in support of that idea.

    I too would hope that the Prophets would address the IF subject doctrinally. It seems that they are unaware that worthy-married members really exist and that, through no fault of their own, can’t procreate. Maybe they’ve never read the Gospel According to St. Luke, chapter 1.

    Anyway, “do what is right, let the consequence follow,” (choosing missionary service) literally cost me the ultimate earthly gift. Honestly, the only real reason I stay is because I hope that it is true. I can’t imagine an eternity without my wife and she reminds me of that often.

    Maybe if the number of infertile couples hits one in four, our reactional leadership will inquire of the Lord, as to WHY? Until then, thank you for the post and your edifying words.

    Comment by Carlton — October 16, 2006 @ 5:54 pm

  31. AngelaM,

    According the GHI, the church strongly discourages it. Additionally, they strongly discourage using any other person’s sperm or eggs, other than your spouse, for procreating. It’s either you and your husband’s stuff, or adoption. Or disobedience and hell fire.

    Comment by Carlton — October 16, 2006 @ 6:01 pm

  32. Carlton, I too lost the ability to have children because of a mission. My mission president — a gynecologist yet! — refused to let me see a doctor when I became ill, because mission insurance wouldn’t cover it. I didn’t know enough to ask to go home. He actually laughed at me and said most girls would be glad not to have their periods. I did see a doctor within a week of coming home, but by then it was too late. I can’t be sure that’s the reason I haven’t married, but I’m sure it is part: the man I wanted would have wanted a family, so he wouldn’t have wanted me.

    Until reading the comments here, I honestly had no idea — NONE! — that I wasn’t entirely alone. Like Janet, I struggle with appreciating my body. Like Arya, it’s hard to feel like a woman. But until this evening, I didn’t know there was anyone else who could understand.

    You know one of the hardest Church teachings to hear? The one about “no blessing being withheld in the eternities” — I *know* speakers always mean well when they say that, mean it kindly and lovingly and as a comfort, but it comes across as a dismissal: “You’ve failed in this life; go sit in the corner and wait until the next one. You have no place here.” I don’t wish the pain on anyone else, but the next time I hear that, I’ll remember that I’m not alone.

    Comment by No longer alone — October 16, 2006 @ 6:57 pm

  33. Janet,
    et al,
    Although I can understand your personal need/desire for more openness about infertility, I think it is important to understand that not everyone in your situation feels that way and would plead for more privacy.

    Warning: long story ahead—
    A couple of months ago I was at a RS activity with many women in the ward. One of the ladies has a son conceived through IVF, has been trying to conceive a second time for over a year through IVF, belongs to several fertility support groups, and is very open. Everyone knows the troubles she is having and what drugs she can and can’t use, how many tries she’s gone through, etc. She is very open and everyone likes her. We’ll call her Abbi.
    Mother number 2 had 2 boys easily but has been struggling for 6 years for a third. We will call her Betty. She didn’t want everyone to know but everyone does.
    Mother number 3 has 1 very young daughter with health problems, recently moved here from an Asian country where people have usually one or no children, is well over 40 but looks barely 30. She was pleasantly surprised to have one child, and can’t have anymore. She is in emotional turmoil. I am one of the very few people who know this. Let’s call her Calli.
    Mother 4 is the mother of 5. She’ll be Dina.
    There were lots of mothers there, at least 20, we were all making cinnamon rolls while the kids played. Suddenly, Dina says, “So I was looking around the ward and I was thinking we are due for some babies. Is anyone planning on having more soon?”
    I laughed, “Are you volunteering?”
    Abbi chimed in, “Ya, me and my husband were going over the ward list Sunday trying to guess who would have a baby next. We said yes…” Here she named several families by name in the ward of who she thinks should be ready to have a baby. Most of us (she named me too) were in the room. Besides being shocked, I tried to change the subject. She was relentless. She turned to Betty, “Well I know you are trying Betty, but you are having fertility problems.”
    Betty blushed and giggled uncomfortably, “Yes, when you are having fertility problems, everyone knows you are trying to get pregnant.” I muttered things like, “Doesn’t it matter how old they are, if they can have more, if they even want more?” inaudibly except to my friend across the table from me as we roll out dough looking at each other with that look of mutual understanding.
    Somehow, to my horror, all of the attention was suddenly, and acutely turned to Calli. “Hey Calli, why don’t you have another baby?” Many women joined these sentiments. In broken English she tried to explain that she is not going to have anymore. I wished I could rescue her, and take her out of this wretched place from these wretchedly misplaced sentiments. But I couldn’t. (We would cry about it later.) It is such close quarters in this tiny kitchen and everyone was listening intently. I was so upset I would have just made a scene if I opened my mouth at all, and have humiliated her even more.
    She finally stumbled out, “I am too old.” My gut was wrenching. But Abbi kept going.
    “Sure you can! Just do it!” She said enthusiastically, as if she could have had another child like rolling out another batch of cinnamon rolls. “How old are you?”
    She is shocked when Calli told her. But nevertheless continued offering alternative methods of conception.
    Eventually the subject changed, kind of. Fragments of fertility kept lingering on everyone’s tongues the whole time. I felt physically ill and angry when I left.
    I went home and called my sister who is trying to adopt a child to vent. She isn’t sad she will never be pregnant. She really just wants a baby—and part of her is glad she won’t have to go through pregnancy. She really just hates being on the LDS family web site to compete –and advertise herself like a well-packaged product to teenage girls who often look at name-brand clothes and house size to decide whether or not their baby should go to her home.
    It appears I can’t have more children either. But it always comes up and well meaning but invasive people ask when or if I am going to have more–often non-members who assume that because I am Mormon I will be having 50 children. . People assume because I have some, I can. I don’t care to talk about it with anyone but my closest friends (and obviously on a blog where everyone and their dog can read about it—but no one knows me).My sister feels the same way, and so does Calli, and Betty is ambivalent since she has decided it is inevitable that everyone will talk about it.
    I’ll mention two more friends who were there. One has no children, I’ll call her Eve. Everyone assumes, perhaps with her high fashion sense and adventuresome personality, she isn’t ready for children. She is quiet about it—and is starting to be a little more open in close-knit circles. But certainly not in this one (RS activity), despite perhaps finding someone who could relate. She is about to undergo IVF. My other friend, we find out some weeks later, is adopting a little girl around 6 years old to add to her 4 boys. She is open about the adoption. (She is the one that is doing it for free.)
    Obviously one size doesn’t fit all. I think everyone needs someone to cry with, and hope with, and share with. But I think by and large we are open about fertility, at least women’s. I don’t think talking about it more in this context would help. My friend Eve has told me on long walks how talking about it just reminds her there is a problem. She would rather not dwell on it. She appreciates support, but has expressed how intensely personal this long road is for her and her husband, especially for her husband. Part of being sensitive to others about fertility is respecting privacy, and assuming that everyone wants it. I think being open is great, if you invite it. I just really wish this woman, Abbi, had understood that—and would understand that.

    So when we talk about talking about it , I’m not sure what everyone is expecting. SImply to say it is a problem? I think that is known. I think talking about it takes away from the fact that why people do or don’t have children and how many is nobody’s business!

    Comment by mami — October 16, 2006 @ 7:12 pm

  34. Oh Mami, I didnt’ mean that people should be required to volunteer personal info they don’t feel like sharing, or that fertile people should be snoopy. That cinnamon roll thing sounds ***dreadafu****l! In fact, just last week I was taking a woman to welfare square–a woman I had never before met–and she decided to grill me on my childlessness and whether or not DH and I had “really” tried. It was unnerving, and I’m as open as people come. Some people don’t ever want to talk about IF’s personal toll, others need to. Everyone’s individual needs should be respected.

    What I meant is that think our CULTURE needs to be more open, whereas individuals should feel the right to keep their trial as private as they like. In other words, I’d like more of a public aknowledgement from the church itself that infertility exists and comprises a real trial for many couples–I’d like more Ensign articles, maybe a talk in conference or the RS meeting. I’d like the topic to become less taboo if women DO want to share. It’s just like divorce–an individual divorced person should be able to discuss his or her trial if he or she wants, but certainly not forced to. The fact that the institutional church finally talks about divorce and publishes articles dealing with it, aknowledges that it can be devastating and doesn’t mean someone is being punished for sinful behavior–those things make a divorced person’s life easier, I imagine, whether or not they feel like sharing their personal experiences. The validation can ease personal struggles in private as well as in public.

    Sadly, there will always be insensitive people who feel the need to interrogate singles about why they aren’t married or couples about why they have no/so few children. My husband has come up with a series of comments to stop such people in their tracks. It’s pretty funny to witness, actually.

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 7:30 pm

  35. Carlton said,

    “Though my wife and I are both in our thirties, we are treated like psuedo-adults.”

    Amen.

    Comment by Eve — October 16, 2006 @ 7:35 pm

  36. Amen squared.

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 7:39 pm

  37. Janet, I could use some of those lines. Is my not treating my PCOS making it so I can’t have any more even if I start treating again?

    Eeeeek!! I hope not.

    Currently I have one child, turning 8 this month.

    I haven’t really processed or thought about my fertility issues much. Partly I feel guilty because who am I to feel bad when I have one, but . . .

    And then I feel bad when someone gets pregnant (not bad for them, or me), I feel bad like I’m an awkward reminder of a problem that might make em feel awkward about being very happy about it. Almost like I need to apologize for my situation or something.

    Then again, I can see that my anxiety disorders are taking that to a distorted, extreme level.

    Comment by Sarebear, Centerville, Utah — October 16, 2006 @ 9:32 pm

  38. I used to hate it when people asked when we were going to have a child. Finally I came up with a stock line, which I used to great effect on my husband’s grandma: “Do you know how babies are made? That’s disgusting!” REALLY shuts them up!

    Comment by Quimby — October 16, 2006 @ 9:38 pm

  39. Janet,
    Thank you for sharing your feelings here. I think the best way for our “culture to change” is for more people who feel comfortable to be open and to share their stories. Ensign articles on these types of subjects are usually written by those who experience them. I hope more people will be willing to share their stories as you have here and how they found peace and comfort in spite of their struggles.

    I don’t have fertility issues per se, but we have not been able to add to our family because of health issues. There has hardly been a day in the past three years that I haven’t thought about it. I have wept many tears. I have felt guilt. I have wondered if it’s my fault that all of this is happening. I have felt like I’m failing somehow.

    Perhaps my pain seems ungrateful to those who struggle with fertility, but, on the other hand, perhaps it helps to know that there are some of us who struggle with heartache over these types of things, even if our life belies that fact because we have children.

    It helps me to remember that in a way, broken dreams are broken dreams, and almost all of us has them. Sometimes I wish we could recognize that at a general level and maybe perhaps we wouldn’t feel so isolated by the specifics of our broken dreams. I know sometimes I isolate myself by feeling that I’m the only one whose heart and life and dreams feel broken.

    I guess I should say that it helps me to remember that so many of us have such broken dreams. Even though most people around me don’t understand the sometimes heart-wrenching trials I have (some are ones that hardly anyone knows about), I feel that they can relate in their own way because they have their own pain (children or spouses who aren’t in the Church, death of loved ones, divorce, mentally ill children, false accusations leading to lengthy and costly legal battles…). I believe in the end that the answers are really the same for all of us, regardless of the specifics of our trials. That may sound weird, but that is what I have found as I talk with those around me. We all hurt, we struggle, we wonder, we wish things were different — and yet, we can find comfort in the same kinds of ways.

    Since struggling with chronic illness issues and all that goes with it (in addition to other things that tear at my heart strings), I have noticed how often our leaders speak of our trials. They reach out in love. They do acknowledge many specific trials that we face. They testify of the Atonement, reminding us constantly that all that is broken now can be made whole in the next life if we are faithful here. Such promises are about relegating anyone to a corner — since we all have need to rely on those promises in one way or another! — it’s about relishing the Atonement and really learning to trust in what that means. For me, that means a body that is whole, a heart that is whole, and a family that feels complete and whole.

    Hugs to those of you who face this trial. Perhaps I’m not the type of person from whom a sort of empathy means as much, but my heart does hurt in a knowing kind of way even if I can’t fully understand your pain.

    Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — October 16, 2006 @ 10:25 pm

  40. Vertitas-

    If you do not feel the urgency to have children, please don’t. My mother never wanted children but had three anyway. She always resented us and has told me that there have been many times she wished she’d never had kids.

    Comment by Marianna — October 16, 2006 @ 10:30 pm

  41. I think all the people suggesting Ensign articles should write them. Seriously. That is the only way they get in there. Maybe that is the only reason there aren’t more.

    And yes–that RS thing was dreadful. And that is an understatement–and really I want to know all the funny things your DH says–I’m sick of people asking. All I say is “Hopefully someday.” And hope they shut up.

    Comment by mami — October 16, 2006 @ 10:39 pm

  42. Also, as far as the church policy on sperm donation etc, it seems to me by the wording in the general handbook that it is highly advised against because it is an emotional issue. A man may feel bad the kid has his wife’s genes and not his, etc. That is the only reason for couples, although a big one. It is not like breaking a commandment and there is not church discipline–I think they just want you to think about it. Although if I remember correctly, single women undergoing sperm donation are subject to church discipline. However I have never heard anything official about asking single women not to adopt. I won’t believe it until I see it sourced.
    I have a friend who’s cousin called her and wanted her to donate her eggs for his wife–or some extended family. She did. The church had no problem with it, of course she didn’t discuss it with them–no reason to. I think these things are left up to individuals–like most things of such a personal and sacred nature.

    Comment by mami — October 16, 2006 @ 10:46 pm

  43. Mullingandmusing, of course your kind words hold meaning. None of us ever entirely understand another’s pain (except Jesus, of course); the very effort itself, however, touches me deeply.

    One of the things I’ve noticed–and the way I think the Romans 8 verse has worked in my life–is that my worst trials always make me a kinder and more compassionate person in the long haul. Just last month I was pondering the way I’ve sat on my bum and done pretty much nothing but feel terrible for a solid year. It occurred to me that while not everyone has a period of bone-crushing sadness, most of us do have days like that. And most of us aren’t as open about it as I am. I decided that if I spend the rest of my life simply trying to bring joy (as in Happy Sappy II) or at least offer sympathetic company during someone else’s sorrow, my life will not be wasted. I still want to be a mom, but this realization was a big deal for me.

    I don’t think I was an insensitive lout before, exactly, but I had my internal radar mor attuned to recognizing and validating others’ joys than in witnessing their pain. To be Christlike, we have to do both. Which is pretty much what you said :)

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 10:47 pm

  44. Regarding egg/sperm donation and surrogacy: Two LDS reproductive endocrinologists here in SLC are currently writing a book about advanced reproductive technology and LDS doctrine. They were nice enough to show me drafts, since I am writing a book about dealing with infertility from an LDS perspective. Their conclusions–based on meeting with various leaders (though no GAs, I don’t think) and the general handbook–are that sperm/egg donation is OK while surrogacy is not. They offer reasoning as to why, but I don’t want to misrepresent or oversimplify. At any rate, I actually talked to both my bishop and an extremely close friend (who happens to be highly conservative) tabout egg donation about a year ago, and they had the same thought I did–if you pray earnestly about it and God seems to confirm your decision to go that direction, then do it. The policy doesn’t ban it; it just discourages it.

    I think the opposition to surrogacy has to do with legal issues, although I am not positive.

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 10:53 pm

  45. I don’t want to sound corny but this thread has been something of a catalyst for me today. I have been feeling very down the last few weeks because of my health issues, which are a significant factor in our infertility.

    Suddenly I am very ready to pursue adoption. DH and I discussed it and we are going for it. We have been holding out hope that we will some day have a miracle pregnancy but that just leads to me feeling very sorry for myself because I am helpless. We CAN proactively pursue adoption, though. I don’t know any of you and this is a fairly annonymous blog but I have–we have–reached a major turning point.

    I talked to my mom about it tonight. My parents adopted me as a newborn and she told me how very lucky they were to get me. A bishop who was also our family member intercepted an adoption that would have gone through LDS Social Services. My dad was too old to adopt at the time but this family member essentially bent the rules for my parents. Not that I am hoping someone will bend the rules for us, it is just a testament that a child will find his or her home.

    Comment by AngelaM — October 16, 2006 @ 10:57 pm

  46. Angela,
    Awesome for you. Hope it all goes well!

    Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — October 16, 2006 @ 11:30 pm

  47. Angela,
    Although adoption is not at all a difficult decision for me, and we agreed that if this should ever happen before we were married that this is what we would do, I know it is a very difficult decision for others (although DH is having doubts currently). I have heard so many miraculous stories from friends about the adoption of their children, I am happy you have been able to come to a decision and hope it will be a good experience for you. The best of luck,

    Comment by mami — October 16, 2006 @ 11:44 pm

  48. Angela, that’s great! The process does take a while, but then again so does a pregnancy :). Good luck! May you be “paper pregnant” soon.

    Comment by Janet — October 16, 2006 @ 11:58 pm

  49. 43
    Janet, Thanks for your thoughts. I once heard a definition of charity as “an educated heart.” There’s no other way to have such a heart without experiencing some significant pain. I have found my heart is much more tender now than it has ever been, and I hope my radar is more attuned as well.

    Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — October 17, 2006 @ 12:08 am

  50. Yes, Mami, can you get more info about the free adoption option and post it here? I’d really appreciate it.

    Carlton–I’m sorry to hear your situation right now. It’s not hard to read between the lines, and guess at where you are right now in regards to your beliefs and questioning everything and feeling ready to toss it all out the window. I think I’ve been there. Probably a lot of people on this list have been. I can’t advise you on what to do (you probably have plenty of people doing that anyway), but I can tell you that when I was at that point, I tried not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My perspective was so clouded that I didn’t know my perspective was clouded. I barely hung in there, but I did. By and by things started to change. I started to change. I am in a much better place than before. We all go through seasons where our faith and values and everything else is tested. Sounds like you’re about there. Hang on! You must be being groomed for something significant, because God doesn’t let us struggle just to be capricious.

    Comment by Blue — October 17, 2006 @ 12:09 am

  51. M&M, can I just say that you routinely write the most beautiful thoughts. Your comments have a healing balm effect to them, and I just wanted to thank you for always taking such thoughtful time to buoy us up! Thank you.

    Comment by Blue — October 17, 2006 @ 12:30 am

  52. i had a YW pres in the 70’s who was desperate for a baby but every month nothing happened. the whole ward knew of her depserate situation and how upset she was becoming 9 this was before IVF etc) one day the bishop called her to nursery…the hrardest thing for her she hated it but served with relucatcne.

    met her a few years ago divorced remarried toddler in tow

    not saying this is the soluitoion by the way but i always wondered how she was doing.
    another couple adpoted a baby with downs fostered another child think she had some miscarriages and then breast cancer and then became very unexpectedly pregnant.
    their faithfulness shone but no one saw their heartache behind closed doors.

    when i was newly married (all of 9 weeks) a member came up and said so are you 9 weeks pregnant then?? we’d actually decided to wait a little while which shocked her….

    years later dh sat in bishopric meeting, bishop mentioned that ther were no babies coming up into primary that year and joked that we’d better get our wives pregnant agin…3rd son we call the bishops assignmentn( all though we were planning on another one anyway - turned out afer him i couldn’t have anymore anyway) but lookng back i am so glad that the sisters weren’t in that meeting!!!

    good luck with your adoption decision - there are lots of children out there waiting for you!!

    Debra UK

    Comment by debra uk — October 17, 2006 @ 4:15 am

  53. Wanting children, wanting to be pregnant is a righteous desire. I have two daughters. My oldest daughter was placed in our home by a loving birth mother. My second daughter I was priviledged to carry myself. There is no difference in my love for my daughters. I have given my lifes blood for both… I have cleaned up their vomit, sang them lullabyes, and kissed their sweet sticky fingers. They are mine.

    In regards to feeling less than a woman… It was my paradigm. I was in my box and this was what I was choosing to feel. Less than a woman for not having a regular cycle and not being able to ovulate. I had to come to my own resolution.

    NO matter what I am being tested in , infertility, illness, divorce …..I have but one choice to make. Do I remain a friend to God? Do I prove myself faithful?

    I do NOT believe God gave me infertility to punish me. I had mercury fillings in my teeth. I chose that…rather my parents did. I chose to seek alternative medicine for answers Mayo Clinic could not give me. I chose to take bitter tasting herbs to detoxify my body.
    Even though I had mercury poisoning in my uterus causing infertility, God did do this for me: HE was able to use this as an instrument to see if I would still love HIM.
    All of these upsets in our lives are not due to a hateful God. We live in this world to be tried and tested.
    I have come to appreciate Elder Neal A. Maxwells outlook on trials….This is what I now pray…”Okay Heavenly Father I am being humbled by my pain and longing to have a third child, please do not let this pain be in vain. Teach me something that I need to know , to be a better person”.

    I wish peace for you all. It has taken me a long difficult path to get to this point… but I have peace. Oh, I cry when my period comes. But I just pray “Help thou my unbelief in Thy will for me.”

    Comment by Shana Ha — October 17, 2006 @ 2:29 pm

  54. Debra - your story about your YW leader makes me sad, especially if she divorced primarily so she could have a child.

    Comment by Quimby — October 17, 2006 @ 5:04 pm

  55. Carlton - I agree with you - my husband and I can’t stand to not spend time with each other, and therein lies another blessing in our infertility. Not only am I infertile, but my husband is too. There are blessing as well as pain in it. Our only option is adoption, and we will pursue it in time, but we are blessed with a very close friendship, for which I would not take anything in exchange.

    Comment by Nicole — October 17, 2006 @ 5:12 pm

  56. Here’s a question: anybody else experience the bizarre irony of having infertility strengthen your marriage? Carlton and Nicole’s comments about adoring their spouses reminded me of this.

    I have some in-laws who seem to view husbands as sperm banks and nothing more. It has always saddened me that they seem so NOT in love with their husbands. But DH and I have been married nearly 10 years, and maybe we’d started to take each other for granted. Then a year ago our doctors told us the long-standing infertility problems were not going to go away, we’d never have children. It’s been a horrid, indescribibly painful year for me…..but I appreciate my husband so much more.

    In fact, we spend more quality time together, talk about our true feelings more, and generally just have a better marriage. As much as infertility sucks, I am grateful for this interesting development. It’s preparing us to be better parents via adoption as well.

    Comment by Janet — October 17, 2006 @ 5:38 pm

  57. Janet,

    I would suspect that perhaps it’s not just infertility that can bring a couple together. My health issues have done the same, in different ways. Of necessity — either our heartaches will bring us together or pull us apart. I’m so glad to hear that this has brought you together.

    Blue,
    51 - I’m grateful that something I have said has been helpful. Thank you for your kind words…they were a balm to ME today.

    Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — October 17, 2006 @ 6:10 pm

  58. Janet,

    Nearly 10 years, eh? Same here, 4 June 1997.

    Comment by Carlton — October 17, 2006 @ 6:26 pm

  59. I wouldn’t necessarily say that it was infertility alone that really sealed the deal, but it is all of our challenges and honesty and openness that really brought us together. Not to mention that we just were like two kindred spirits when we met, and we have never let any of our challenges bring us down. We have each other for always, and there is noone that I would rather spend my time with, and noone else that I can tell EVERYTHING to. He has stood by me through everything - and gone with me to every docs appt… I can’t imagine that I would have had that experience with anyone else. I agree that I see a lot of people whose marriages aren’t like that and I am sad for them because I love the closeness that we have with each other.

    In 6 years we will have been married and best friends for as long as you Carlton, and Janet… for now it’s just 4 years and counting that have flown by SO fast!!! In that way infertility is a blessing because it just gives us so much more time to have fun and go places etc… together!!

    Comment by Nicole — October 17, 2006 @ 6:39 pm

  60. Heh heh, Nicole–your last sentence remind me of my BF’s reaction to the news that I wanted to go to Bora Bora for my 10 year anniversary. She looked at her two kids and her prego belly and sighed, then said, “I think we’ll sit on the couch for ours. Maybe, if we’re lucky, we’ll have sex.”

    Certainly there are *some* perks of childlessness, and as much as I want babies, I plan on cramming in as much travel as possible until the babies arrive!

    I love reading your and Carlton’s comments about marriage. They make me happy and remind me that it is my union with hubby, and not the kids (who would grow up and probably get spouses of their own) which will remain central in the eternities.

    My anniversary is on Dec. 23, but we probably won’t take the trip until around Carlton’s anniversary. Hmmm, time to get in swimsuit shape!

    Comment by Janet — October 17, 2006 @ 6:46 pm

  61. Oh–MullingandMusing, I’m always going to picture you surrounded by candy, due to the T&S Halloween treats thread. You’re sweet in several ways, it would seem :)

    Comment by Janet — October 17, 2006 @ 6:47 pm

  62. Even if we adopt kids we aren’t going to stop travelling. They will be trekked all over, however we need to do it. My friend reminded me once that we are sealed to our spouses, but then when we have kids, and they get married they are sealed to their spouses and therefore start their own eternal family… and therefore you ultimately are responsible for the success of your marriage only, as it is central to your own eternity.

    Sitting on the couch is a choice - there is nothing stopping them from finding a way to celebrate beyond the couch. I think that sounds more like martyrdom than marriage.

    I am glad to know that there are others as happily married in friendship as my husband and I are.

    Comment by Nicole — October 18, 2006 @ 9:29 am

  63. Nicole,

    It is good to hear. Until this thread, I wondered if any other married people in the church actually liked each other. My wife will be glad to know there are others like us :-)

    Comment by Carlton — October 18, 2006 @ 11:26 am

  64. Carlton and Nicole,
    you are implying most people, if not all, who are married and have children don’t like each other. That is simply not true.
    You are also saying that you can only spend time together if you don’t have kids, and that people who choose different activities than you (ie travel) don’t do it because they have kids.
    You are taking comments you have heard from couples and putting them in a very negative context. Some people sit on the couch because they like it.

    As much as I have travelled with kids and think it is possible–I think you are wholly unrealistic about how easy it is to travel with small children.
    I love to hear people like you who don’t have children put your ideals from your non-parenthood existence on to people when you simply do not know. Perhaps that is what is at the heart of this whole thread–people who don’t have children feel grief from people with children, etc–but really if you were always putting you expectations, and judging other peoples marraiges and families by how you think it should be–it would explain a lot of the tension.
    And however much you like to say people are martyrs for putting their children first, parenthood, by its very nature is sacrifice. That is just reality. Of course that does not mean you have to sacrifice your marriage–but don’t assume everyone else is.

    Comment by mami — October 18, 2006 @ 12:02 pm

  65. First off, a disclaimer, I am not infertile. But reading the comments about marriage and loving your spouse makes me want to comment.
    I love my husband of 21 years. When I married him I did so because I wanted to be with him, not because I wanted to have kids. I really hadn’t given a lot of thought to kids beside that I would probably have some. Well, I have had some kids. And I don’t get to go away with my husband often but we do love to be together and try to go out every week, sit together at church when possible, hold hands, talk about our day and everything else.

    We’ve had some health issues with a couple of kids that has brought us closer together also.

    So yes Carlton, there are other married people in the church who like each other! :)

    Comment by marmee8 — October 18, 2006 @ 12:24 pm

  66. Carlton–I get what you are saying and that you are not making judgments about all couples with children. From the outside, it is easy to think that the only thing parents have in common with each other is the children.

    Maybe couples need a “project” to work on together to be happy. DH and I planned our wedding together. The next project was working on our young careers, then getting through a major health concern, then moving to California, then dealing with my father’s death and my mom’s widowhood, now trying to move out of CA and trying to become parents.

    We get along and enjoy each other daily even when we aren’t focused on our goals but maybe working on goals together bonds us to each other. I can see that if couples forget how to be couples when they are busy parenting, it might be difficult when the kids are gone. Perhaps working on side couple things (travel, etc) reminds us that our spousal relationships are the most important to nurture.

    Comment by AngelaM — October 18, 2006 @ 12:40 pm

  67. Marmee8,
    Excellent news!

    Mami,
    You seem angry. Do you know what the little smiley face implies? :-)

    Comment by Carlton — October 18, 2006 @ 12:41 pm

  68. 57- “I would suspect that perhaps it’s not just infertility that can bring a couple together. My health issues have done the same, in different ways. Of necessity — either our heartaches will bring us together or pull us apart.”

    Very much true here as well. clinging to eachother in our trials has strengthened our marriage to an incredible degree of love, fun, and honesty exatcly as described by the other happy couples above.
    If a couple with kids views eachother as “sperm bank” and life as just kids and couches… man, i don’t know what to say. I’m sorry for them. Your marriage is suposed to be your primary relationship, and perfect unity as spouses is your eternal destiny.

    Comment by cchrissyy — October 18, 2006 @ 1:22 pm

  69. Perhaps that is what is at the heart of this whole thread–people who don’t have children feel grief from people with children, etc–but really if you were always putting you expectations, and judging other peoples marraiges and families by how you think it should be–it would explain a lot of the tension.

    I heartily disagree, Mami. In fact, if you read my original post carefully you’ll notice I don’t feel any bitterness towards the folks who say weird things to me, nor do the other commenters say snarky things about them. We all understand, I think, that we don’t “fit in” as easily as the married couples with kids. We’re even sympathetic to their discomfort regarding us. But the central tension of the thread–and the original post–concerns the internal tension of people who want children but are at odds with bodies which won’t do them the favor. It’s not an externalized blame game at all. We feel bad because we wanted kids and we didn’t get them.

    I didn’t mean to start a conversation about who does or doesn’t love their spouse–I just think it’s great that infertility (a problem which results in a lot of divorce, if you believe the statistics) has made my (and apparently the marriages of others) stronger. As others say, lots of trials can do this if you rely on each other and on God. No need to feel defensive.

    Comment by Janet — October 18, 2006 @ 2:11 pm

  70. Oh yeah–I’ve got to agree with Mami on the travel thing. My best friend in the entire world moved to Germany with great visions of taking her children about the countryside. She noticed that 3 children under 5 don’t care if they’re in Europe or in the “boring” old states–they still need regular naps and snacks and the opportunity to throw occasional tantrums. Especially if dragged through overtly sedate places such as museums.

    I know it can be done, but I’m all for cramming in as much as possible before my much coveted mama status arrives. No 2 year old is going to want to hang out in the reading room of the British Museum. Backpacking in the alps might work, though–I could teach them how to yodel :)

    Comment by Janet — October 18, 2006 @ 2:15 pm

  71. And not just kids under 5! I lived in Europe when I 13, my brother 16, my sister 10, and we all hated the museums, the endless trips through European countrysides and cities . . . My poor parents probably thought we would appreciate it, but we just wanted to go back home to London and watch tv.
    On that note, my oldest sister backpacked through South America with her 1 year-old and her husband, and had a great time. I have a very agreeable niece. The envy of mothers everywhere. :) (I’m not biased, I swear.) Most parents wouldn’t be so lucky to have a one-year old just sit happily in a baby-back-pack for three weeks.

    Comment by cmac — October 18, 2006 @ 3:03 pm

  72. Yes! I admit–I am defensive and, obtuse. Ouch! Admittedly, I do not know all the smiley face signs and what they mean. Do you have to go to school for that?

    Here is the long awaited adoption info. It is for California–but I know there are programs like it everywhere. My sister knows a couple in her ward who almost instantly adopted 3 siblings–a 6, 3 and baby.

    www.adoptaspecialkid.org.
    phone number 510-553-1748

    I am not sure if it is what everyone is hoping for, but there it is.

    Janet, you always have a beautiful way of smoothing things over in just about every conversation. I’m sure it will be of great benefit as a mother.

    Comment by obtuse — October 18, 2006 @ 3:11 pm

  73. Thanks for the info, Mami–and your “name” on the last post made me laugh out loud. Nothing diffuses tension better than a touch of self-mockery, so touche’! If it makes you feel better, it took me a while to get a hang of “netiquette” and the seemingly endless amount of emoticons (I think that’s the name for the little faces). And I appreciate your kind words as well–I try. And I hope it does come in handy as a mama; I learned the skill from being a middle child :) :) :). Liminal space is sort of my natural home.

    I had a friend tell me that you could do the free adoption thing in Washington as well–I’ll try and get more specific info on it. We’re on the que for adoption via LDS Social Services, and if we adopted elsewhere we’d have to pull our LDSSS application (yaargh) until the kid had been in our home a year. We felt good about pursuing our kiddos through them, but maybe the next one will come via the state. This is great information to have and I’m so, so grateful to you for sharing it. Even though LDSSS is extremely inexpensive compared to the 20 grand tag on most adoptions, I have a few friends who can’t come up with 4 grand for LDSS. I’ll pass the info along.

    Comment by Janet — October 18, 2006 @ 4:50 pm

  74. cmac–DH lived in Holland when he was 13 along with his parents and 10 yo brother. His mom took him all over Europe and DH LOVED it. Brother HATED every second of it. DH has always been the perfect son so he would have been happy living on the prarie with the coyotes!

    Comment by AngelaM — October 18, 2006 @ 5:01 pm

  75. Janet, I have felt your pain. “Back in the saddle again…” Oh the joys of feeling insane on clomid… having a pharmacist who was in a former ward who’d remark how his wife got pg on 150mg and then watching his optimism stop when I climbed to 250. The tests… the tests… the tests… the poking, prodding, temping, the wemusthavesexfor3daysstraight and don’tyoudarelosethaterectionoriwillcry, the overanalyzing every single twinge. Ugh. Exhausting isn’t it?

    I’m not going to tell you to fill the void in other ways. I’ve been there. I got sick of hearing it all. I knew people meant well. I knew all those were options and I was still pursuing it with my own body for my own reasons. I will tell you to look into acupuncture and meeting with someone with a degree in TCM (traditional chinese medicine). My acu. worked with Randine Lewis and had good success with aiding those both going the ART route and natural.

    What really sucks, even more than trying, was sitting through all those gawd awful mothers day meeting blocks. My last 2 years as a member I didn’t go that day at all. Trying to get pg w/o success in the lds church is like a special hell which I’m sure gets you a get out of the telestial kingdom free card, no matter what else you do or don’t do in life. ;)

    Comment by cg — October 18, 2006 @ 6:37 pm

  76. cg, I skipped mothers day this year. The past three years or so, whoever is in charge of handing out flowers freaks out upon seeing me, and then feels compelled to make a speech about how I mother all the children I come in contact with. And other women just avoid me on that day. I decided my friends should have a guilt free day to celebrate their fecundity while I deserved an extra morning to sleep in :).

    I’ve done some research on Randine Lewis. Unfortunately, we’d need IVF with ICSI even if I get my FSH down or am magically cured of autoimmune disease. I’m just glad adoption doesn’t require needles, ‘cuz I’ve had about enough of those being poked into my belly! Clomid, btw, makes me far far bitchier than do the heftier fertility drugs. DH refers to them as “bitch pills,” but only when I’m not on them. I outweigh him after all–especially the clomid water-retention months–and could squash him like a bug :)

    Comment by Janet — October 18, 2006 @ 10:30 pm

  77. Becky of Absent Minded Huswifery fame–I realized I never answered your questions from the beginning of this thread (a moot point perhaps, since it’s likely the thread is nearly dead!)

    1) i keep from smacking people who postulate on my sinfulness by smuggly reminding myself that they are, while speaking, committing a sin :). Honestly, I feel a certain amount of condescending pity for anyone who feels the need to run about telling others that heaven is smiting them. How sad to think the universe is so facile, that we can read people’s hearts simply by looking in their bellies (ok, uteruses. uteri?) or their bank accounts. I’d rather be infertile than think God was that petty.

    2)Foster care–yep, thought about and researched it. Researched it quite a bit. Told my husband I wanted to try it. He looked utterly stricken and reminded me that the kids would likely get taken away from me. He asked if I could emotionally handle knowing that my little darlings were likely being returned to less than ideal circumstances. In a moment of painful self-honesty, I had to admit that I’d fall apart like a cheap pinata. I hate it when the babies I babysit go home. Basically, it’s the same reason I didn’t pursue the desire to become a social worker–I don’t have the emotional backbone for it. I’ve got the heart, but you have to have more than that.

    Comment by Janet — October 19, 2006 @ 12:02 am

  78. I can’t believe all the people who’ve said (on this and other posts) they’ve been treated like children just because they don’t have kids yet. Well, I can believe it, but I still find it very depressing. I love having friends who don’t have kids yet, ’cause it’s generally easier for us to do things with them (i.e. they can come over to our house and play games in the evenings when others can’t because their kids are in bed and they can’t get a babysitter that late on a school night). Of course, I’m not always as good at making friends with those who don’t have kids yet, because I’m not forced into it so much. (With other parents my kids might want to play with their kids, so I go up and introduce myself and plan a time to get together so our kids can play. I’m an introvert and this is harder to do just because I want to get to know someone myself than it is because my kids want to make friends.) Still, I don’t think I ever treat them as less than an adult.

    As a woman who is perhaps overly-fertile (I have regular periods even when nursing and on birth control), I’ve really appreciated the recent posts on infertility, IVF, adoption, etc. These are issues that I don’t know much about, and it’s great to get some insight into them. Thanks, everyone, for sharing your experiences.

    And Janet, you said you’re “on the que for adoption via LDS Social Services, and if we adopted elsewhere we’d have to pull our LDSSS application.” What exactly does this mean, being “on the queue?” Do you mind sharing? I’m curious how the process works. And congratulations on being “on the queue,” whatever it means, because I know it means that you’re pursuing becoming a mother, and I think you’ll be a great one.

    Comment by Vada — October 19, 2006 @ 1:29 am

  79. Janet- it sounds like you and I are in the same infertility boat? It would see the only difference is that my FSH is 119 (gasp!) and therefore there is no drug that would help us. We need ICSI too. Blah.

    Mami - sorry if I upset you with my comments. My personal observation, and even comments that married people have made to me make it seem that once you have kids you tend to grow apart from your spouse. My husband’s parents seem to be prime examples of this. My inlaws just built a HAYUGE house in Northern Utah because my mother in law told me she has no idea how she can spend a whole day with him in the same house because he will just drive her crazy and she doesn’t know what to do with him. Therefore by having the big house they can avoid each other from one days end to the other. However, I think I was certainly indicating, more than anything though, that even if we can’t have kids at least we have each other as best friends, and that is one blessing in our infertility. Perhaps it is only in my ward where I have observed families where the parents seem to be two disparate people raising kids together, being cross with each other more often than not, where they would prefer to spend more time with RS people than with their husband or with whatever PH committee than go home with their family. (My sis in law’s family) Nevertheless I do believe that you can have kids and still be the best of friends - my parents are prime examples of that.

    And I understand about people making sacrifices for their kids, but I think that if you really wanted to go out you could find a way. Everyone should still find a way to keep the romance alive even with kids. Completely sacrificing that just because you have kids IS martyrdom.

    Comment by Nicole — October 19, 2006 @ 6:42 am

  80. Nicole, do you ever participate in the high FSH support forum online? There are a few cases where women with numbers similar to yours have gotten pregnant. It’s rare, obviously, but not completely impossible. What with the whole ICSI thing as well, I completely understand if you’re too sick of the merry-go-round to deal with it anymore, but I thought I’d refer you to the site if you haven’t been there already. If you type “high fsh” into the yahoo search page, it’s the first one that comes up.

    Also, doctors in the research fields aren’t sure POF is the only reason for elevated FSH. In my case, for instance: I’ve got totally normally-sized ovaries (if you’re truly running out of eggs, they shrivel), so the docs think it probably has something to do with my autoimmune ailments. Theoretically if they can get those under control and address the nutso brain/ovary chemistry I’ve got going on, they might be able to help. I don’t think that will happen within a reasonable fertility window for a 34 year old like me, but if you’re younger you’ve got a decent shot since there’s some great research being done. Oh–and if by any chance you take cimetadine, stop. It artificially shoots fsh through the roof and kills fertility (but it does such wonders on tummy acid!)

    Anyhow, you probably know all of this. If you want to chat mono y mono, my email is GARRARJL@deletethispartidon’twantspamSLU.EDU

    Cheers!

    Comment by Janet — October 19, 2006 @ 9:58 am

  81. e-mailing you…

    Comment by Nicole — October 19, 2006 @ 10:30 am

  82. Hello everyone. I know I’m very late to the party, but here goes…

    First my credentials. 13 years of marriage, 3 conceptions, all lost in the first few weeks. I now have a wonderful son we gained by adoption when he was one month old. We are a sealed family.

    As I read the original post I thought of an analog. I often have to drive to our Stake Center to attend meetings connected to my calling. I am promised blessings if I magnify my calling.

    If traffic is good at that hour and I get on the Interstate at the exit by my office I only have to change freeways once and eventually drive about a mile on a surface street to get to that chapel. It is the both the most direct route and the quickest.

    Alas, many times traffic is not kind to me. Sometimes I listen to the traffic reports and know in advance that there are holdups. Sometimes I get absorbed in my 80s CDs and don’t have any idea why it’s bumper-to-bumper.

    I’ve found two or three alternate routes for getting to the chapel. Sometimes I take Interstate A to the junction with Interstate B then take a surface street the final 8 miles. If Interstate A is the problem, I can take C boulevard to a on-ramp of Interstate B that is usually past the place where traffic bottlenecks. I can even take surface streets the whole way.

    Sometimes I decide the best answer is just to stick with the main route and hope that eventually I’ll make it to my meeting.

    Here’s my point. The blessings I seek are not based on the route I take to the church, rather on getting there and serving. As I read the quote you post from Pres. Benson, I read nothing about the blessings of motherhood being intrinsically tied solely to the process of conception and giving birth. I think you’re conflating the method and the outcome.

    It is easy to understand why this might happen. The pregnancy process is indeed glorious and beautiful but it is not the only way to achieve your goal of being a mother. There are plenty of children here on this planet who, through no fault of their own, need loving parents. They may well be the means of achieving the outcome you seek. If fertility were based on worthiness I suspect there’d be a lot fewer unwanted pregnancies in this world!

    Your infertility is not a punishment. It’s part of being an imperfect being in an imperfect world. Neither you nor your spouse have sinned to bring this onto yourselves. It is my holding that God is much less interested in whether or not your are a fertile couple as he is in how you choose to face and overcome this challenge.

    Please don’t think of adoption or foster-parenting as first- and second-runners up. It is the blessing of the priesthood as adminstered through the sealing ordinances of the temple that tie us to each other for eternity. There are plenty of blood-related families that will not gain that blessing in this life.

    My recommendation is to not get so tied up in the method (conception and birth) that you forget that the desired outcome is an eternal family. Based on my understanding of the scriptures, whether or not you share common blood is less important than whether or not you are sealed by covenant.

    Regardless of the route, the blessing comes in a loving family.

    My $0.02.
    Chad

    Comment by Chad too — October 20, 2006 @ 12:42 pm

  83. Thanks for your comments, Chad. It’s very nice to hear from people who’ve made it through the adoptive process. As I noted earlier, I always planned on adopting. It’s a far more stressful process than I anticipated, however, inasmuch as my husband and I have zero control over it at the moment. It’s all birthmoms and social workers. Which is fine–I understand why that is and even respect it. But it’s demoralizing, too.

    I think the bit about “ushering” children into the world is the portion of the quotation that got me. Sure, we can argue that adoptive parents “usher” children into life experiences and certainly into the familial life, but we don’t literally usher their bodies into existence. I’m pretty sure President Bensen was talking about giving birth as at least a portion of women’s roles. And hey, that’s fine–women do give birth and it’s pretty danged cool.

    As I also said (later down the thread) the grief of not having children is different than the grief of not being able to have them biologically. I’m sure I do conflate the two to a degree, since at the moment I’ve got both types of grief going on. But I appreciate the difference. So, mourning over my inability to give birth isn’t all about the same destination (an analogy which works very well so far as the destination portion of the equation goes). The process itself held great value for me–not tied in any way to how I’ll feel about my children, but rather how I feel about myself.

    On the flip side, biological parents don’t get to experience the miracles that often attend adoption. I doubt they realize they’ve missed anything though. Still, they probably do.

    Comment by Janet — October 20, 2006 @ 4:22 pm

  84. The process itself held great value for me–not tied in any way to how I’ll feel about my children, but rather how I feel about myself.

    Thanks for sharing the tender feelings of your heart. This pulled at my heart strings.

    Comment by mullingandmusing (m&m) — October 20, 2006 @ 5:01 pm

  85. Hey Janet, no sweat at all. I truly understand the grieving process that comes with realizing that one will never have the experience of conceiving a child. I remember many nights of the two of us holding each other tightly and mourning over the results of yet another failed pregnancy test or the spooting of a miscarriage. I use the word “mourning” deliberately… it was as though we had had a child die everytime.

    I was (not so well, apparently) trying to offer some hope. You will be a mother and share in the joy and blessing of parenthood. You’re just having to take the surface streets, that’s all. You’ll get there.

    Comment by Chad Too — October 20, 2006 @ 8:29 pm

  86. Oh, Chad–even hearing that someone managed to get through the adoption process *does* offer hope! We’re at the interminable waiting stage of the game, where we wonder whether or not it’s a sin to pray for some kid to spike the punch at prom so all the teens get a little frisky :). In some ways the lack of control offers valuable space for self-reflection on our own tendencies towards micro-management–space the interie infertility journey has given us.

    The street analogy actually makes me giggle, since I’ve always preferred surface streets to my husband’s overt fondness for the freeway. If you don’t mind my asking, how long did you have to wait after you applied to adopt? I know the wait is quite long w/LDSS, which we are using, but I’m hoping their whole “three years” speech existed simply to keep us from getting impatient :). Any other advice you have to offer on the adoption process will be recieved with great gratitude. I’m a woman finishing a PhD who was brought to tears by the task of making a photo collage, because how do I know what the birthmoms want to see? It’s really pretty funny, in retrospect.

    Sometimes I think that, in 20 years, we’ll realize the places our lives will have gone they never could have had our lives followed the “plan” we had at our marriage. I talk about moving to West Africa to run an orphanage (DH is a doctor, and I’m a teacher, and we have friends who know the area well). Or we talk about adopting 10 kids from all over the world and having a United Nations home. Who knows–current trauma will most likely pale in comparison to whatever it’s preparing us for. For me, anything pales in comparison to the peach fuzz on a baby cheek nestled in my neck. I’m such a stereotype, but babies and me, we go together like peas and carrots.

    I even like teenagers :)!

    Comment by Janet — October 20, 2006 @ 8:48 pm

  87. Well, I can share the timetable quickly, but understand that this was not a typical experience.

    Sept 8: Wife miscarries. This was our third miscarriage with three conceptions in all our years of marriage.

    Sept. 14: Set up appt. to meet with LDS Social (now Family) Services.

    Sept 27: Message on answering machine from a family member. She’d been contacted by a friend of a friend of a friend about a 16-year-old girl that was looking for a home to place her baby when it was born. We call back to get more info.

    Oct 7: Local airline offers a cheap e-saver to the birth mother’s town in the upper midwest. We fly up to get to know her, her mother, and the birth father (just turned 18). They all agree to place the baby with us as soon as they can after it is born. They aren’t sure exactly when the date of conception was, could be one of many days. Best guess on due date is between Thanksgiving and Christmas. (we find out later that the teens had hidden the pregnancy from everyone as long as they could) We cancel the appointment with LDS Social Services until we see how this all goes.

    Oct 9 - Nov. 19 All the preps for an interstate private adoption. We ordered criminal background checks on ourselves, got physicals, hired a social worker to conduct our home study, and arranged for the lawyers necessary to handle the adoption in both states.

    Nov. 20 Everything is ready, just waiting on the birth.

    waiting…
    waiting…
    waiting…

    Dec 16: If the baby doesn’t come by Dec. 19 the doctor says she’ll induce.

    Dec. 19: on the way to the induction labor starts. A boy is born just before 1pm. Ten fingers, Ten toes. I Fed-Ex a camera to the hospital so they can take pictures and send them back to me. The birth mom gives him the name we told her we had chosen as a first name, our last name as his middle name, and her last name.

    Dec 21: Everyone checks out of the hospital. The birth mother goes home and the baby goes to a foster family — one that care just for babies waiting for the adoption process to put them in their new home.

    Dec. 22: A clerk of court in the birth mother’s state says that the judge insists on their being at least a full week post-hospital before appearing in court to terminate parental rights. WIth the holidays, that mean the baby will be in foster care until mid January.

    Jan 15: The birth mother, her attorney, the birth father (representing himself since he had turned 18 during the pregnancy) and the attorney hired as guardian ad-litem all appear in court. The judge goes through all the options available to the young couple were they to change their minds and choose to keep the baby. He also informs them that, having appeared before a judge who instructed them properly, it would be next-to-impossible to change things once he makes his ruling. All agree that terminating parental rights in favor of placing the baby for adoption is the best idea.

    Jan 16: The paperwork clears the state office up north

    Jan 17: The paperwork clears the state office down south. We can go take custody. Spent $1500 at Baby Superstore in 90 minutes (after months of looking but not buying, you could do it too).

    Jan 18: We fly north again, this time to pick up the baby. We get some strange looks flying with all this baby equipment but no baby, but the explanation brings lots of smiles.

    We invited the birth parents to be there when we picked the baby up. Several think it is a bad idea but it we felt it was important to allow them closure. Birth mom and grandma show up. We all hug, allow them to say their goodbyes, and we head back to our hotel 30 miles away near the airport

    About 3 miles into our return trip, a truck pulls up behind us and starts flashing its brights and waving us down It’s the birth-dad. He had gotten stuck at work and almost missed us. We let him say his goodbyes. He hands the baby back and, with a tear in his eye, says, “Make sure he behaves.”

    Jan 19: We arrive back at home to start our new life as a family.

    Aug 15: Our local court finalizes the adoption.

    It still just seems like yesterday. Now I’m baby-hungry again ;-)
    Chad
    Aug 30: We are sealed as a family in the Temple

    Comment by Chad Too — October 20, 2006 @ 9:43 pm

  88. Chad, wow. I don’t know what to say. But for some reason the detail about the birth-father tracking you down, saying goodbye to his and your son, and telling you to make sure he behaved has got me all choked up. I’m so glad you were able to able to adopt. And I’m awed at the sacrifice those birth parents made. I can’t even imagine.

    Comment by Eve — October 20, 2006 @ 10:06 pm

  89. Oh my, the birthdad flagging you down on the freeway makes me cry. My only real reservation about adoption is that I’m just not sure I have the backbone to take a baby from a brokenhearted birthparent–even knowing that it’s what is best for all involved. It must have really torn you guys up.

    We had a couple in our ward with a similar story–five miscarriages and then a week after they decide to pursue adoption they find out about an available baby. 3 weeks later they are parents, even though my BF (an adoption attorney) warned them that these things “almost never work out on the first try.” We’ve had about 5 possible private adoptions fall through, but I never felt good about any of them so it wasn’t too hard to deal with. The only one that really hurt was when a birthmom decided to reject us because we are Mormon….as is she. She didn’t want the kid to be raised like she was, in an abusive home. I felt so bad for this teenager that I wound up wanting to adopt both her baby AND her :).

    I LOVE the story about spending all that money rapidly!!!! I have never been pregnant, mind you, (well, possibly one early miscarriage) but I own an expensive backpack for toting baby through the mountains, a baby swing, a baby bouncer, a baby bathtub, and boxes upon boxes of baby clothes. And a portacrib. It sounds pathetic, but all that stuff actually comes quite in handy. We’ve watched friends’ kids during emergencies and I babysit a lot. It’s nice to already have the stuff :).

    Congratulations on everything–it’s sooo nice to read experiences of those who have actually gotten a child. I keep thinking DH and I need makeovers and a pony in order for anyone to choose us :)

    Comment by Janet — October 20, 2006 @ 10:13 pm

  90. This reminds me of the story my parents told me about how they got me. I was born in December–3 weeks early. Also an interstate private adoption. They took me home the day after Christmas…I was 10 days old.

    We got an email from someone at LDSFS today. We called the number but the office was closed already (at 1:30 on a Friday??). I am nervous and scared. I talked to a friend who wrote a recommendation letter for a couple who is adopting through LDSFS. She told me about how quickly they were chosen and that they get together with other couples hoping to adopt for a monthly family home evening. We laughed about how competitive that could become. She said there was a couple there who have been waiting forever. I asked if they were ugly. Yes. DH and I are both very overweight and in our thirties. I worry that a 16 year old won’t want to give her child to a couple of tubbies.

    And all the hoops! What if our financial situation isn’t desirable enough? What if my health becomes an issue? Our ages? Putting together pictures—we just figured out what was wrong with the digital camera we got 2 years ago! We don’t have a lot of interesting pictures of us. Some Disneyland photos (which I hear will be a great selling point—most couples stress their fun lifestyles along with photos of them at the Grand Canyon or the beach).

    It takes me back to the time I was so frustrated when the pretty 19 year olds were receiving the blessing of eternal marriage mostly because they were attractive enough to catch a handsome young RM (I have since learned that they are often good catches for other reasons). At close to 30 I married a good catholic boy who got baptized shortly after we were married and sealed a year later.

    It just seems unfair that so many around us keep accidentally getting pregnant. DH’s brother had 2 “accidents”, a friend of mine has had a few, DH’s cousin and one of his employees are preparing for their happy “accident” to arrive. We will have to be at the mercy of a young girl and promise to let her keep in contact, even if we would rather just be the only parents in our child’s life, so she will choose us.

    This is my rant and I am going to post it :(

    Comment by AngelaM — October 20, 2006 @ 10:24 pm

  91. I really should edit one more time before I post. DH’s Cousin and DH’s employee are having separate babies. The way it is worded above is almost scandalous and reduces the number of actual pregnancies I am feeling bittersweet about.

    Comment by AngelaM — October 20, 2006 @ 10:32 pm

  92. Janet, I love it! THat must be the key. Get a pony in the picture! (Do we put the pony in the middle of us? Maybe a long shot of the pony featuring its ridability?) We have extremely boring lifestyles. We could offer a child…books books books? Musical instruments and a few camping trips too, I guess, but we’re anything but glamorous and exciting.

    I admire you for buying baby stuff (as you say, comes in handy, and I really need to buy some toys for babysitting). I just couldn’t buy the baby stuff, though. Can’t even look at it.

    Angela, I’m sorry. It sounds even worse than dating.

    Comment by Eve — October 20, 2006 @ 10:44 pm

  93. Oh Angela, of course I can relate to your angst! I’ve gained 30 pounds as a result of fertility treatments and feel the maniacal need to add the following to our “dear birthparents” letter: “Look, if you think I am too chubby then please realize that all that cellulite serves as solid (or wobbly, depending on how you look at) testimony to how desperately I want a baby!” I tell myself to just chill, that God can direct these things. But LDSS has all this stuff that basically adds up to telling us how to best prostitute ourselves, so its hard not to get a little obsessed. In fact, I just spent a half hour looking at *other people’s* online profiles and cursing the one couple that was so cute and filled with fun that I swear I want them to adopt me!!!!

    Eve, I must admit it. The shame. In our photo collage I have prominantly placed a photo of me, riding a pony. We do not own a pony. But hey, all those couples with Disneyland in their photos don’t exactly own the magic kingdom now either :) :). I also included photos of my younger and thus cuter and skinnier self. I rationalize that I am provided a full spectrum of DH and my lovely marriage. DH, being the irritatingly freakish guy that he is, still looks about 22 and hasn’t gained an ounce in 10 years. He has to grow a beard just so his patients don’t call him “Doogie” and run away.

    Comment by Janet — October 20, 2006 @ 10:57 pm

  94. Janet, I love it! I want to see you on a pony!!! And hey, what the heck–maybe I’ll skip adopting myself and start begging these people to adopt me, too.

    It’s almost un-American, but I’ve never been to Disneyland. It just doesn’t sound very appealing. I’m one of these wander in the woods and think about the clouds types. Only an introvert would pick me ;)

    Comment by Eve — October 20, 2006 @ 11:00 pm

  95. Never been to disneyland either–and fear that if I went now I’d drive poor DH crazy by interogating the cultural significance of the rotating motion of the tea cups :). Also, my extreeeeemly introverted DH would probably melt down in the middle of the food court.

    I actually have justified recent travels to Europe partially with the rationale that they will render me more attractive to birthparents. How’s that for ratiocination of the pretzel variety?

    Maybe I’ll upload the pony photo tomorrow….

    Comment by Janet — October 20, 2006 @ 11:10 pm

  96. LOL at the cultural analysis !! My extremely practical husband is always wondering aloud, provacatively, about the market value of this head-in-the-clouds humanities stuff and then hopefully whispering the words “law school” in my ear every now and then.

    And I too would have a meltdown in the food court. No doubt about it. But trips to Europe sound good. Whatever justification does the trick, I say.

    Yet another tangent alert: Just this afternoon my husband called me from work and we were discussing the Myers-Briggs, which he periodically tells me is meaningless but which he evidently had just taken in some staff workshop or other. He came out slightly extraverted. (I’m very introverted.) Interesting the couple oppositions on that. We know a Mormon couple where she’s the extravert, he’s the introvert and often when we get together we break gender ranks: I talk to him while my husband talks to her.

    Comment by Eve — October 20, 2006 @ 11:20 pm

  97. Me and DH had to take the Myers-Briggs when we were Writing Fellows at the Y (and DH will go on and on about how it illustrates why social science is soft and mushy and thus unreliable). We come out as exactly opposites. As were me and my then roomie (and still close friend). In fact, when DH and were engaged and I would baffle him, he’d call the roomie to beg explination.

    AS for law school? Well, those two words can motivate me back to my dissertation like nothing else on the planet. I dated a law student for a while, and reading his torte book (is it spelled like the dessert?) was like ingesting cardboard.

    DH is holding out hope I’ll write a best-seller. I remind him that I don’t like most best-sellers and he insists I don’t have to like them, I just need to write them :)

    Comment by Janet — October 20, 2006 @ 11:28 pm

  98. Nice grammar error in that first sentence, eh? Also, I couldn’t remember if it was “dessert” or “desert” that I wanted, so I looked it up. I think that despite my usual bedtime of 3 a.m., the strep throat is mandating that I retire. My IQ is down around my ankles at the moment.

    Comment by Janet — October 20, 2006 @ 11:30 pm

  99. DH is holding out hope I’ll write a best-seller. I remind him that I don’t like most best-sellers and he insists I don’t have to like them, I just need to write them :)

    I love it! My DH has said almost exactly those words to me. I keep trying to explain that arcane analyses of poetry do not, under any circumstances, become best sellers.

    My IQ does that too (falls down around my ankles, that is, and I can’t blame it on illness). But IQ is no more meaningful than the Myers-Briggs, right? Probably less.

    Comment by Eve — October 20, 2006 @ 11:51 pm

  100. Janet and Eve up late chatting, I see. Thanks for not making the Smile-nicely-until-she-goes-away look :)

    Disneyland. I had no desire to ever go to the Happiest Place on Earth. It is just one cog in the giant Disney Marketing Machine and they expect me to pay HOW MUCH to be indoctrinated?!? But, I fell in love with a big kid who has been going to DL his whole life. I went with him a few months before we were married. I was sucked in. We have purchased annual passes every year since we moved to Southern California so we really ARE as nutso about DL as our collage will suggest!

    It is still a big marketing tool but it really IS happy! Everything is clean. It smells nice. All the park employees smile (probably fake smiles but I don’t care). And, Pirates of the Caribbean is pretty darned cool. I try to maintain my cynicism by mocking the princesses and embracing Alice in Wonderland. She is the curious girl who got herself into a fun pickle.

    Is there a blog for women who are taking their sweet time to finish one degree (“MA Thesis Pending” Has been on my resume for 3 years) while pondering law school? DH keeps hoping I will do it. Or that I will write a best-selling smut novel.

    I should probably be looking for an adoptive parents blog instead of rambling on this thread!

    Comment by AngelaM — October 21, 2006 @ 8:14 am

  101. How many husbands are there out there who expect their wives to write a best-selling novel? I didn’t know the situation was so prevalent. My husband tells me I’m going to be the next JK Rowling (at least he picks the right genre, but really, she’s the only best-selling fantasy novelist out there, so how likely is it?). Maybe they just all dream of having their wives take care of the kids and make the money. Not that I can blame them… I could get behind my husband doing both…

    Comment by Vada — October 21, 2006 @ 11:38 pm

  102. OK, Vada, it’s our commission! Let’s you and me and Janet write best-selling novel. We’ll pass it around and take turns writing the chapters, like that parlor game. It’s SURE to be a hit ;)

    Comment by Eve — October 22, 2006 @ 12:13 am

  103. You know, that sounds rather fun. Count me in!

    Comment by Janet — October 23, 2006 @ 3:12 pm

  104. So the first step is to pick a genre. If we’re going to make the bestseller list we probably ought to pick thriller, mystery or romance. Or possibly an angst-filled real-life melodrama. Or a combination of the above.

    Comment by Vada — October 24, 2006 @ 10:59 pm

  105. Hey- not to change the subject, but I have no desire to be a writer, only a mother and I have read the posts above and as an LDS woman who was been married almost 10 years, with no kids I can completely identify with you all. My hubby and I are posted on the LDSFS website and are waiting for a birthmom to choose us and often wonder why someone would choose 2 special education teachers who both need to loose some weight. But the real reason I am posting this is to ask about surrogacy. Recently, my older sis and I attended Deseret Book’s Time Out for Women (TOFW). After TOFW, my sis sent me a lengthy email stating that she felt impresssed to offer to be my surrogate and that her husband had also had the same impression a week earlier. For my fertility issues, her being a surroagte would require that she used her egg and be inseminated with my husband’s sperm. I am totally confused because the few things I can find about the church’s stance on surrogacy say that is not encouraged, but, why would my sis have this prompting, if this was the case? Any thoughts on this?

    Comment by Emily — November 1, 2006 @ 12:43 pm

  106. Seek your own confirmation. And go with the spirit.

    Comment by not ophelia — November 1, 2006 @ 2:22 pm

  107. Hey, Emily–

    It’s true the church disgourages surrogacy as well as egg and sperm donation, but it’s not considered a sin or anything (or at least I haven’t seen anything indicating that, and I’m researching the subject). I imagine the concerns are more centered upon legal complications.

    I agree with Not Ophelia. General counsel has exceptions, and a strong spiritual confirmation can let you know if your family falls into that latter category.

    I feel your pain on the LDSS wait! I keep thinking DH and I aren’t “cute enough” as well, but then I hear stories of inspired birthmoms and tell myself that they are, after all, entitled to revelation as to where their biological children should be raised. Certainly the spirit doesn’t care if I’m a bit chubby, so I hope they listen to the spirit when a kid “meant for us” arrives rather than focusing on our photos.

    Comment by Janet — November 1, 2006 @ 3:25 pm

  108. Emily,

    I would argue that the GHI comments about this matter can be taken as general advice and that choosing surrogacy would not be considered a sin.

    There really may be some legal issues that you may want to consult an attorney about.

    Janet,

    In my ward two unattractive people managed to adopt two wonderful kids thru LDSSS. I cannot imagine that they photographed well. They put their names in the hat and got a random phone call one night to be in a certain city in 2 days. They also made the trip to the store and dropped a couple of G on baby stuff.

    Comment by bbell — November 1, 2006 @ 4:22 pm

  109. Thank you. A good book to read about adoption and birthmom’s having revelation about the families whom should raise their kids is the book For the Love of a Child- The Journey of Adoption by Monica L Blume and Gideon O. Burton isbn #1590384407. If you havent read, it, read it. I got it at the LDS Book store.

    My hubby and I are praying to decide if we should allow my sis to carry our baby, but dont know, yet. So much to figure out. In some ways, it seems better than adoption because I know my sis’ medical history, etc.. We just dont know. I also dont want to be going against church, however, the thing that troubles me most is why my sis and her hunny would both feel prompted to offer that if it is discouraged by the church.

    Comment by Emily — November 1, 2006 @ 4:42 pm

  110. Emily, I don’t think you’d be “going against the church” if all parties involved truly felt the surrogacy was God’s will. The church has some policies with a bit of “give” to them depending on the exact situation involved. I do understand your trepidation since I’ve considered egg donation. If you feel anxious after receiving confirmation, you could try talking to your bishop (assuming he’s a good guy with whom you have a decent relationship). i spoke with a good friend who is a bishop about egg donation, and all he did was remind me that the church’s opposition is general rather than specific. It was even his sister offering to donate for us, so if he thought it was all out wrong I’m sure he would’ve said so. Then again, I have no problem presenting “my case” to church authorities and never have. Still, with only one exception, the leaders have listened to and respected what I had to say, engaging me in counsel and conversation rather than hardline sermons.

    Still, experiences may vary. Not all ecclesiastical leaders feel inclined to look beyond generalities. Ultimately, you’ve got the right to God’s direction as concerning your family.

    Comment by Janet — November 1, 2006 @ 4:51 pm

  111. I think we are going to go see the bishop this week. My sis only brought this up to us on Monday, before that, we had thought that our only way to becoming parents was through adoption. Although, we are still not opposed to adoption, it is somewhat disheartining when you log on to the LDSFS website and see all the postings of all the people who are waiting for babies. There cant be that many babies waiting for a family. It could take a really long time.

    I have always felt a strong connection with my sis and her 3 children. When she was pregnant with each I felt partically connected to all of them. I am now beginning to wonder if this connection means more than previously thought as if we allowed her to carry our baby, the baby would be a half sibling of her kids.

    In some ways the whole thing kind of weirds me out though, my sister would be carrying my hubby’s baby.

    I have tried to find pieces of advice on where the church stands on it, etc, all week.

    There is a babyshower tonight for woman in my ward who already has 4 children. I was invited, but cannot bring myself to go. In recent years, my sisters sowers have been the only ones I have attended.

    I try to stay positive and know that heavenly father loves me and that he knows the struggle that all of us on this page are feeling, but there are days that it is too hard.

    It would be so much easier if Heavenly Father would just give me a clear cut answer of what He wants me to do.

    Sorry for rambling and thanks Janet for starting this post. Thanks to all of you for your comments. I look forward to chatting with you all more.

    Comment by Emily — November 1, 2006 @ 5:06 pm

  112. I thought I’d add my two cents as someone on the other side of this issue (someone who could potentially be a surrogate motheror egg donor, rather than someone who needs one).

    I can understand why the church discourages surrogates, and not just because of legal issues, but because of emotional ones. Pregnancy is a lot of work, and a rather miserable experience (at least it is for me), and when the baby finally gets here, it’s mine. I can’t imagine giving it up then. (Yes, I know birth mothers do it all the time, but it’s heartbreaking, and I certainly can’t imagine planning a pregnancy, and knowing from the beginning I was going to give the baby up.) But if both your sister and her husband feel strongly that they want to do this for you, then hopefully that won’t be an issue.

    I don’t see egg donation having the same issues (at least for me). I actually think it would be kind of cool to be able to donate an egg so a friend or family member could have a baby. I’d feel a special connection to the baby, but wouldn’t feel like it was mine — just that it shared some of my genes, like a niece or nephew does.

    Anyway, just my two cents. And like everyone else said, the only people who can determine what options are right for you are you, your husband and Heavenly Father.

    Comment by Vada — November 1, 2006 @ 5:08 pm

  113. I had a friend [a non-member and a hippy/vegan/liberal type] who was a surrogate. She had a son and felt like she wanted to help someone else. She had no regrets, only joy that she could be involved.

    I believe she set her own terms for the pregnancy, etc. Home delivery even. She even insisted on breast-feeding the little girl for the first few days so she could get the immune benefits of her colostrum.

    I don’t think she has much contact now — but her son knows about his half-sister and has the option of someday forging a relationship there.

    NO

    Comment by not ophelia — November 1, 2006 @ 5:23 pm

  114. the thing that troubles me most is why my sis and her hunny would both feel prompted to offer that if it is discouraged by the church.

    I think there are two steps here. They might have feelings about what they want to offer, but that in and of itself doesn’t mean it will be right. They obviously love you and care about you and want to help you. But as has been said, the key is finding out how YOU and your husband feel about it all.

    To me it’s a little like the stories of young men who feel inspired to propose to a young woman, but the young woman doesn’t feel inspired to accept. Don’t assume that because they feel prompted to offer this that you are bound to accept. Study it out in your own mind and heart and pray pray pray. Things that are right tend to flow and unfold and settle. Give it time if you need to. There are enough issues to consider (which, as has been said, is surely why the Church doesn’t encourage this option) that you want to be sure this is the right decision for you.

    I will offer a prayer for you that you will be guided as to what to do.

    Comment by m&m — November 1, 2006 @ 5:26 pm

  115. Oooh! Vada has a link on her name. Double oooh - she’s writing! (Short stories? a book?). Fun!

    Sorry, I’m easily distracted. And it’s a little late to tell Chad that his comment was really cool, and congratulations.

    Comment by Kaimi — November 1, 2006 @ 5:41 pm

  116. Cool! A Vada blog! I must go check it out!

    Comment by Janet — November 1, 2006 @ 6:05 pm

  117. Thank you NO and M&M . It help just to be able to ask questions of someone besides the 4 of us who are considering this. We are all still diong as the primary song so simply states “search(ing) ponder(ing) and pray(ing)”.

    Comment by Emily — November 1, 2006 @ 7:35 pm

  118. I’m curious to know if there are sealing issues as well as legal issues behind the Church’s discouragement of surrogacy. If Emily’s sister and her husband were married in the temple, would the baby be considered Born in the Covenant to them instead of Emily? And then they’d have to go through the process of breaking that sealing (can you even DO that?) to have the baby sealed to Emily & her DH? Anyone know?

    Comment by Bee — November 1, 2006 @ 10:19 pm

  119. I asked my reproductive endocrinologist the same questions, Bee, since he’s an LDS guy writing a book about this stuff. Surrogacy is so much trickier than egg or sperm donation where sealings are concerned. If I find an answer anywhere I’ll let you know. Heck, maybe I’ll call the Church Office Building tomorrow and ask, just for kicks :)

    Comment by Janet — November 1, 2006 @ 11:17 pm

  120. Thanks Bee for aking that. My sister and her hubby are sealed in the temple as are my hubby and I. So, we were wondering the same thing. We all have appts to see our bishops, but this is something that the bishops may not even know. We found the church handbook online (I dont even think it is supposed to be on line) and it talks about artificial insemination and selaing, but nothing about surrogacy and sealing. ai am glad I am not the only one wondering about that.

    Comment by Emily — November 2, 2006 @ 10:42 am

  121. I have never seen any doctrine specifically prohibiting artificial insemination or surrogacy. I was actually surprised to see so many people under that impression. My feeling on this echoes that of many others–pray about it. While that may sound like a rather trite answer, the couple who is so desperately and prayerfully seeking a solution in their lives that will allow them to have children should be prepared to accept whatever answer they are given. It is possible that one of your tests in life is to know the pain of not being able to have children. It is not an indicator of whether you have sinned or not or your worthiness to be parents. Sometimes it’s simply one of your challenges you must face. Of course it’s painful. So is facing the knowledge that, despite all your best efforts, you married a monster who was highly skilled at deception and is now abusing you. So is being born blind. So is losing a leg in war and having to wake up every night in a cold sweat because you can’t sleep. The point isn’t where to lay the blame, it’s in how you deal with your challenges. Meet them faithfully. If the solution in your case is a donated egg or surrogacy and you’ve prayed about it and feel strongly it’s the right decision, go with it.
    I myself have seen the pain that infertility causes couples who wish to be parents, and have strongly considered offering to either donate or be a surrogate since my body seems to be healthy and fertile. My only concern is an emotional one, so I would wish to meet and know the potential parents prior to giving them a piece of me–but I would gladly do it. That egg is just getting flushed every month anyway. I would love to see it go to use granting a parent their deepest wish.
    The church for the most part seems to stay out of decisions like this, and for good reason. This, like whom you wish to marry or whether to serve a mission are personal decisions and should be done with the guidance of the spirit.

    Comment by Julianna — January 19, 2007 @ 9:35 pm

  122. Through my tears, these words resound. Amen.

    Comment by Angie — February 27, 2007 @ 1:48 pm

  123. I have been TTC for almost ten years. I have done 12 infertility treatments. I have had 3 babies die of MC.. I did get pregnant with IVF but only went to 24 weeks. I spent a month in hell in the hospital trying to keep them in. My boys were born premature and died with in week. My body has been through so much. I just had a failed frozen embryo transfer. I am banned from doing any fresh cycles because I hyper stim so easily and have permenant damage because of OHSS.

    I have tried to adopt through LDSFS. Everyone just says “Adopt” like you can just go pick out a baby like at a grocery store. It costs money, it is invassive. We live in a state with tough adoption laws. LDSFS is not very helpful and seems to misplace things. Our photo spread was bashed. We weren’t fun, happy, active enough. They suggested we get shots of us mountain climbing or at Disney World. Why would I want to go to Disney World and see all those children? Of course I don’t look super happy in my photo spread. I’ve been TTC for the past ten years. I am either drugged up prepping, in a cycle, recovering from one or stuck in the hospital. We also don’t have any vacation shots because we have blown every spare dollar we can on infertility treatments. It is so competetive and frankly a lot of the birthmoms (not all) are rather shallow about why the select. They claim it is all done by the spirit but the cute couples with lots of money get picked a lot more then the plain couples with average incomes. It is a popularity contest no matter how they want to deny it.

    I have been told I need to repent, that I don’t have enough faith, that I must of sinned in the pre-exisitance. I was almost denied a temple recommend because I had been married so long and still hadn’t followed the prophets council to have children.He wanted to know why I was disobeying my temple covenants. I was even told by a Bishop that the reason I couldn’t have kids was a sign that I needed to divorce my husband!

    I am sick of going to the baby factory ward and watching the belly parade. I am very open about my infertility issues and still people at church make rude comments about how “I am not trying hard enough” or “I just need more faith” or “Haven’t you and your husband figured out how to make a baby yet.” Ha ha so funny.

    I’ve lost 3 babies to MC and buried two others. I have ruined my health with treatments. I hate my body. I feel worthless in the eyes of God. I feel like I am nothing. Everything anyone says to try to comfort me sounds so canned. If one more person tells me about how God remembered Rachel I think I will hit them. Guess what? God didn’t remember me and I have to live with that knowledge every day of my life.

    Comment by Elizabeth — March 12, 2008 @ 1:10 am

  124. Well that totally made me cry. Ohhh, Elizabeth, that just sucks the biggest rocks ever. I’m so, so sorry. I’d have a baby for you if I were young enough.

    Sometimes I seriously don’t know what God is thinking.

    Comment by hero — March 12, 2008 @ 7:32 am

  125. Yes I have a deep and growing concern about carrying a baby. Our insurance doesn’t cover even “trying” to have a baby. It would cost us over 10 thousand dollars to get implanted with my husbands semen. We would be in debt before we could afford to buy diapers. My husband and I have been trying, seriously it’s an every day event. And nothing happens. The fertility doctor doesn’t see anything wrong with me, or my husband, it’s one of those things that nobody can explain. It throws me into a serious depression everytime I can feel PMS coming on because it’s a reminder that we failed again. I have prayed so hard for this to happen. I actually started surfing the internet this morning just looking for a “fertility prayer”. I feel like I’m being punished and I don’t know what I did. Why is it that crack using teenagers can have babies, and I can’t? I’m not a bad person, all my nieces and nephews love me. My step son loves me. I’m a great “mom”. So what did I do to offend Father in Heaven that he would deny me this one thing that any woman can do. I agree that I’ve felt offended when I understood that my job in the church is to have babies,while my husband gets the priesthood. I almost feel like Heavenly Father feels I’m not worthy to have that calling. In the meantime my un-wed, non-member younger sister has just had her 2nd baby. I just don’t know what I did. And pullease don’t tell me having a step son is a great blessing. He is 12 years old and I hate the fact that I have to share this child with this horrible woman that is his mother.

    Comment by Sherri — August 1, 2008 @ 4:49 am

  126. If you’ve read through all of the posts so far, you’ll likely agree that the topic of infertility and the church gets pretty heated. Over the last few months, after I was diagnosed with PCOS, I think I’ve felt just about all of the feelings expressed here at some time or another.

    Here’s my story. It’s long, but you’ll like it.

    I suspected I had PCOS for a year before I mustered the courage to go to the doctor and confirm it. After all, my husband and I had been trying for years with no luck (not even a “scare”) and I had all the classic PCOS symptoms: irregular periods, weight around the mid-section, hair growth in odd places, dandruff, acne. You know, the stuff every woman dreams of.

    So I visited the doctor, told her that I was sure I had PCOS (although my periods were regular now that I was on the South Beach Diet), and then scheduled a pelvic ultrasound and a blood test. Well, I had the ultrasound done and the nurse who did it said everything looked normal, but the doctor would look at the results and get back to me.

    And then I missed my period. Yay! But wait, why are all ten pregnancy tests showing up negative? I missed my period again the next month, and still no positive result. I couldn’t get the bloodwork to confirm my PCOS without starting my period, so I finally paid the doctor another visit to figure out what was going on. Maybe her pregnancy tests are more accurate than all twenty of mine? (Don’t even ask me about how much money I’ve wasted on them.) Maybe her test would show up positive for me?

    That’s when the doctor “strongly suspected” that I have PCOS (the nurse who conducted the ultrasound must have missed the many small cysts that cover both my ovaries….). And, no, I wasn’t pregnant. I most likely wasn’t even ovulating.

    I felt like my face had been splashed with cold water. But, just like that, I I turned off my emotions and felt fine. I was in the zone: “Okay, that’s a problem, now tell me the solution. Let’s get on this thing.” The doctor told me I’d take progesterone pills for two weeks to jump-start my cycle and then I’d take my bloodtest to confirm the PCOS and check me out for diabetes and other weirdo things (she added more tests to the lists when I told her I’d been having severe bloody noses the previous few months….could be completely unrelated; we dont know). So I left the appointment thinking about how I need to lose 15 more pounds and adopt. A simple plan, right?

    Well, the moment I pulled out of the parking lot and headed home, I couldn’t stop the tears from streaming down my cheeks. I hated feeling emotional. In fact, I remember admonishing myself out-loud: “Would you just knock it off?” But I cried for four days straight: partially because I most likely wouldn’t have kids (or if I did, either I’d be really sick or my kids would likely be miscarried or unhealthy) and partially because of the long list of illnesses I’m likely to acquire before I reach forty: diabetes, heart disease, etc.

    So I took the progesterone pills and started “shopping” for kids on the adoption photolisting sites. Let me tell you, that is a strange experience at first. I felt guilty for passing over kids for one reason or another. But I soon fell in love with a sibling group of three: ages 4, 3 and 2. I was so excited to adopt them; I shared their photos with my mom and sisters and even put their pictures on my computer desktop so I could look at their cute faces all of the time. But I wasn’t ready to tell my in-laws about our situation; I don’t like admitting any faults to them. I don’t know why.

    So the next week was Thanksgiving, and we visited my in-laws. My company happens to be headquartered in their city, as well, and I was scheduled to meet some very important business people during my trip there.

    And then my period came, a week early, and I had to choose whetehr to (1) go to work and wait another 1 - 3 months to get the test results or (2) ditch all of my “responsibilities” and take care of myself. You might have been inclined to do the first option, but not me. I’m a #2 kind of gal.

    So as my pregnant sister-in-law moaned about her morning sickness in the other room, I broke down and hid myself in the guest room. From there, I emailed my boss and explained the situation (thank goodness she’s an understanding woman!) and scheduled an appointment at the nearest blood test place. There was only one complication: I was to get my blood taken at the very hospital my mother-in-law works at, and she knew nothing of my disease. And I didn’t want her to find out about it by running into me with a siringe in my arm and blood flowing out.

    So I got to the blood test place and after ten phone calls between the front-desk and my doctor’s office ten states away, they finally took my blood. Eight vials worth. You don’t know me, but I’m a huge wimp when it comes to needles and medical junk. I made my husband talk to me the whole time they sucked out my blood and then fetch me water while I lay down during the next 30 minutes to recooperate.

    I told you I was a wimp.

    When we finally got home, everything was back to normal. His family thought I went to work, his mom never saw me at the hospital and all was well with the world. Then my pregnant sister-in-law teased us about when we’d finally have kids. “After all, you’ve been married almost six years now.”

    Gently, my husband broke the news to her and the rest of his family. His dad, a great bishop who feels a lot of patriarchal responsibility for his family, looked at me with the most sorrowful eyes I’d ever seen. He was feeling very compassionate. I actually felt more sorry for him than for me at that point (that’s my defensive “I’m fine, but you look like you need help” side kicking in). But I was good. I showed them the pictures of my kids and told them to watch out, because we’d be a party of five the next time we came to visit.

    Well, what do you know but two weeks later I learned that: (1) yes, I have PCOS for sure (2) no, I don’t YET have diabetes but it’s coming (3) “my” three Florida kids have been adopted, as have my “runner up” set of kids (doesn’t that sound awful, to have a runner up set of kids to adopt?) (4) one of my sisters was pregnant for the third time and it was a big surprise to her; they weren’t even trying (5) my 4-year-old neice from a different sister was diagnosed with Stage 2 Melanoma (6) my company wasn’t doing so well in the economy so I had to take a substantial pay cut (7) my husband’s job was on the line (8) and we couldn’t refinance our house to get the new great rates because our home has lost value since we bought it last summer. Merry Christmas to me!

    Naturally for me, I distracted myself as much as possible, but I admit I had a few melt downs late at night when my husband was sleeping or during long lonely car-rides across town.

    Christmas eventually came, and my family came to town (all except the pregnant sister; she was too sick to fly). It was great. I got the iPod shuffle I wanted, and I met my youngest sister’s boyfriend (fiance-to-be, I call him). Things were happy.

    So why was I so angry during last week’s Relief Society lesson: Joy in the Journey? Is it because the “wicked” take the truth to be hard? No. I’m not wicked. I was just overwhelmed, emotionally exhausted and ticked. I didn’t want to even THINK about my journey, much less having joy in it.

    So once the lesson was over and the prayer was said, I rushed out of there, found my husband and grabbed his keys. “The missionaries need a ride,” he said. I told him I’d wait in the car until they were ready to leave. He could tell I was feeling edgy so he let me go without a word. He knows I don’t like to talk about my feelings until I’ve phased back into a normal set of emotions. When in the midst of the emotional well, talking about it just makes me feel worse.

    It took just an hour or two for me to completely calm down and be normal again. And then, the next day, I got a call from my sister, who has the daughter with menaloma. “Do you want the good news, or the good news?” she said. Turns out, her daughter does NOT have melanoma after all! She has a benign tumor (which was surgically removed just this morning!). AND, the other good news is that they, too, are expecting a baby!

    I congratulated her, genuinely happy. Although she has three kids (an 8-year old and 4-year-old twins), she too has trouble getting pregnant. So she got two big miracles in one day.

    The first thing I thought when I hung up the phone was “Where’s my miracle?” The second thought: “Maybe it’ll come next year.”

    Well, perhaps a big miracle isn’t in store for me just yet. Or, perhaps all the mini miracles–that I could at least get my blood tested in another state, that my husband and I still have jobs and a nice home, that we can adopt and be sealed in the temple, that my PCOS doesn’t cause me physical pain, that my neice is healthy and will soon be a big sister, that her brothers are upstairs in my house tonight sleeping so she can get some rest and that my husband finally put them to bed–will add up to form a life full of daily miracles.

    Now here’s the question. Since I have a habit of distracting myself to feel better, would you say I’m I just distracting myself with faith?

    Yeah, well, it works. While crying in the Wal-Mart bathroom (of all places!) the other day, I decided that I have a choice: I can either live by fear or by faith. A life of faith has got to be better than a life of fear, so that’s the road I’m slugging along. In other words, my body may be jacked up, but I can do my best and blame the rest on humanity. It’s all good.

    Okay, fine. I won’t end it like that. My true case in point is this: The atonement is the best medicine for our physical and emotional trials. So take a sip of that sacrament water on Sunday and have faith that it’ll work for you. And then it will.

    Comment by Crystal — January 3, 2009 @ 2:19 am

  127. I haven’t had time yet to read through all of the comments, but this one really caught me: “For all the infertile people reading this, I have just one thing to say. You are going to get there. When parenthood is really in your heart, it is so rare to get off the train before the destination.”

    One of the most hurtful things to tell a women struggling with infertility is “you are going to get there” or “it wil lhappen one day.” There is no guarantee of that.

    “When parenthood is really in your heart, it is so rare to get off the train before the destination.” Is not helpful either. We have been trying to have a baby for 18 years. We’ve done everything from temperature mapping to IVF (twice) without success. We’ve prayed about adoption, and had to face the painful answer that we are not to adopt. I LOVE adoption. I am adopted myself and every day am thankful for the wonderful women who placed my needs above her own and placed me in a wonderful home.

    The sad, and difficult, truth is that motherhood is not the plan for all of us, no matter how hard we want it. Luckily the Lord knew I would never have the true desire of my heart, so he paved the way for me to become a Neonatal Clinical Nurse Specialist. I have had the opportunity to care for thousands of newborns. And while my soul continues to earn for motherhood, I take comfort in the path that has been placed before me.

    But . . . I still dread Mother’s Day.

    Comment by Constance — May 6, 2009 @ 5:24 pm

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