Dear fMh: Mixed member families.
We are not LDS. We moved to Utah (Salt Lake City) 7 years ago and love it. We can’t imagine living anywhere else.
Immediately upon moving here we noticed the Mormon / non-Mormon riff.
At the same time, most of our close friends here are Mormons.
Perhaps even more interesting, my husband is now investigating the church and meeting with missionaries…where I have no interest in the LDS faith, I’m Episcopal – This will be the biggest test of our marriage.
Has anyone been there? Mixed marriage couples when it comes to religion.
east coast girl
I’m there myself. I’m LDS but my husband is Catholic. My take on things: it doesn’t have to be a test of your marriage. Draw no lines in the sand. Respect each other’s beliefs. That last one most of all. Both of you need to keep in mind that you are each faithful and serving God in the way you understand. Neither of you is necessarily better than the other.
You also need to be willing to cut each other slack. If he joins, he may well end up with a calling — perhaps to be a Scout leader or a Sunday School teacher. Those things are going to take some of his time and effort. You don’t have to pitch in and help (though of course you may) but if you find yourself resenting any time taken away from you you guys need to have a calm, quiet discussion about it.
Speaking of discussion, communication is very, very key. If you have children, or plan on having children, the sooner you talk about your plans for them, the better. In the LDS faith, children aren’t baptized until the age of eight. Would you be okay with waiting that long? How does he feel about infant baptism? Also, what will you do about attending church? Trade off weeks? Attend LDS services in the morning and a later Episcopalian Mass (assuming such a thing is possible)?
Love, communication and a willingness to compromise are the things needed to keep an inter-faith marriage working.
Comment by Proud Daughter of Eve — November 4, 2006 @ 11:06 am
This can be a very touchy topic. There is no reason in theory that “interfaith marriage” should be a problem for Mormons, but in practice it often is. Mormon boards (which cater to a different clientele than blogs, it seems) abound with tales of marital difficulties which posters associate with interfaith marriages, but it is difficult to judge how reliable those reports are, given how comfortable many board posters are quite with “rhetorical dishonesty” when it comes to the Church. You know the type: if their dog bites the postman, somehow it’s the Church’s fault. IMHO, marital difficulties have their own inertia which often has nothing to do with religion.
I think the whole issue is much more likely to be a problem with a couple that comes from a Mormon culture background, then one of the couple moves away from standard Mormon beliefs and activity. It is much less likely to be an issue when one-half of a not-LDS couple comes into the LDS Church, unless the other half is an Evangelical or grew up not-LDS in Utah or Idaho. That’s my take on it, anyway.
Comment by Dave — November 4, 2006 @ 11:35 am
I`ve never commented on this site before because no one in my family is LDS — I read it to learn, not to contribute.
But this post resonates with me, because our family is interfaith. I met and married my husband in Japan. He`s a (mostly secular) Buddhist, and I was raised Catholic, though for many years I didn`t go to church.
Two years ago, when we were living in Tokyo, I started going to church again, and had our three kids baptized. I realized then that my husband is not merely indfferent to Western religon — he`s actually deeply suspicous of Christianity, due to some bad experiences with missionaries in his youth (who told him he would go to hell unless he converted, etc.). He was very worried about why I felt the need to go to church.
Then we moved to San Francisco last year, and I told him I wanted to put the kids in a Catholic school, and he was even more concerned. Some of my friends were concerned, too — I should say, I`m not the best Catholic (and I may in fact be the worst) because some of my social views go against some church teachings — the best I am likely to be in my lifetime is a dissenting Catholic, in my non-convalidated marriage. Was it worth risking peace in my household for this? I decided — yes, and I accept the challenge day-by-day.
I agree with Proud Daughter of Eve, above: love, communication and a willingness to compromise are the things needed to keep an inter-faith marriage working. I convinced my husband that my religion doesn`t threaten him or our marriage, and anything that makes my life more meaningful and me more contemplative and charitable can`t be a bad thing. I do not expect him to ever come to mass with me (though he has, once or twice), and most of the time, I go alone — I let him stay with the kids. Of course, they would rather stay home with their father and watch TV, but I still set an example by going to mass, and someday I hope they decide to join me (and even if they don`t, they are learning about Catholicism at school, where I registered them as “non-parish members”). Some interfaith families might find our compromise to be unacceptable, but so far, it`s working for us.
Comment by L. — November 4, 2006 @ 12:14 pm
There are online support groups for people in marriages where only one spouse is LDS. New Order Mormons supports people who are married to an LDS spouse. The LDS half of the mixed-marriage couple can get support at Faces East.
Comment by Beijing — November 4, 2006 @ 12:36 pm
There are many reasons for this issue to be problematic “in theory”. Many teachings of the Church have softened over the years, especially since more and more people are marrying outside of the Church, remaining less active, and joining the church without their spouses.
Until as late as a couple of decades ago, Mormon women who married outside of the church could not even go to the temples for their own personal endowment work–the greatest work of all and the work through which all faithful Mormons are intented to do on earth, if possible. I believe this was an effort to discourage interfaith marriages.
The ertswhile Prophet, Spencer W. Kimball, also was VERY strong in his preaching against marrying non-members and marrying outside of the temple. He went as far as to say that the “heavens would be closed” to couples who willingly married outside of the temple and (in my opinion, using scare tactics) said that they would not be able to be sealed in the next life if they wilfully chose to be marry outside of the temple. This is pretty heavy and straightforward. It should be clear to any Mormon who studies and follows his/her religion that the church frowns on interfaith marriages.
Comment by Would rather not say today — November 4, 2006 @ 1:46 pm
I come from an old LDS family, and I married a devout Buddhist. We don’t have children and I am not active. This saves us from many issues, I’m sure. DH adores my family ( and they him), but not the entire LDS thing. He doesn’t understand why I can’t go to my cousins’ temple weddings, never mind that I am not upset and that I understand. Plus, someone told him “Your wife’s family has made you Mormon, just ask her!” Well, you know what I had to tell him… Anyway, yes you will certainly face challenges and problems, especially if/when you have children or there is pressure for one spouse to convert.. It is extremely important to figure out your families religious guidelines/rules for children BEFORE you have them, if you don’t have children. The most troubles have erupted among couples that I know when there are children and no agreement was in place or a spouse changes his/her mind and wants to change the agreed upon plan. As was said before love, patience and communication will help and may carry you through, but as this site shows, there are many people to help you or just act as a sounding board. A wonderful marriage doesn’t mean an easy one, working together makes you stronger and brings you closer.
Comment by Missus Lisa — November 4, 2006 @ 2:20 pm
Would Rather Not Say Today; your words are not helpful. You’re addressing people going into inter-faith marriages. East Coast Girl is asking for help and advice with her marriage which may be about to become an interfaith marriage. Yes, the church feels strongly about temple marriage. And yes, that’s going to be very clear to her husband as he investigates. It does not however mean that either of them are going to be “punished.”
And as you mentioned, that ban on women married to non-members doing endowment work was ended decades ago. My own mother, who also married a non-member, not only took out her endowments but also did the work to have my grandparents sealed after their deaths. So far as I know, no one is denied anything now and I highly doubt a spouse would be denied anything because they stayed faithful to a spouse they married before they’d even learned about temple sealings.
Comment by Proud Daughter of Eve — November 4, 2006 @ 2:32 pm
Sorry to “not be helpful.” Actually, I think I was being quite helpful, because an earlier poster said there was no reason “in theory” that interfaith marriages should be problematic. I gave some examples in history and context that clearly show how or why the Church responds negatively to interfaith marriage.
It’s a disservice to a an ernest questioner to insist that since LDS are nice folks all will be well with interfaith pairings. Of all relgions, this is among the most thorny because of our belief in what happens with marriages in the aferlife.
Comment by Would rather not say today — November 4, 2006 @ 3:12 pm
Further, while the practice and rhetoric from Church leaders have softened and changed, the doctrine remains the same.
East Coast Girl, many people in the Church have gone that route. It’s not impossible. Just be aware of the likelihood that if your husband is baptized, he:
1. May feel compelled (internally or externally) to try and get you converted also, because of the emphasis on eternal family, being “equally yoked”, etc. WHILE THIS IS NOT THE NORM, I’m aware of missionaries or bishops advising investigating members to delay their baptisms until the spouse is also on the same page or in one worst-case scenario of which I’m aware, divorcing and finding a spouse in the Church.
2. May feel like the odd man out at Church because most LDS men of a certain age are married with children, and their spouses usually accompany them to church.
3. May feel like he is held back in Church callings or opprtunities because his spouse is not a member. There are very few leadership callings available to men whose spouses are not members of the Church, although it’s not unheard of in a branch or smaller ward for bishop’s counselors, Quorum counselors, etc. to have inactive or non-member spouses.
There’s some very, very, very good advice here from other posters. I’m just “keepin’ it real.”
Comment by Would rather not say today — November 4, 2006 @ 3:25 pm
To: Would rather not say (#8)
From: Dave (#2)
Like I said, it’s a touchy topic, but I think you’re misquoting me. I didn’t say interfaith marriage isn’t a problem; I specifically said “in practice it often is.” But I think it is largely a function of culture (it’s worse for those raised LDS or who grow up in Utah or Idaho) and personalities (some people are just going to have marriage problems — if it’s not a difference of religious beliefs, it will be something else). I understand that Mormons or ex-Mormons who have a bad experience on this issue would rather blame the Church than their own families, their own spouse, or themselves. But they are naive if they think that I or anyone else should agree with their attempt to shift the blame.
And I think you’re really on the wrong track if you’re digging up Spencer W. Kimball quotes as a basis for suggesting the LDS Church in 2006 “in theory” will create a problem for an interfaith marriage resulting from conversion. Most denominations want their youth to marry within the faith — including Protestants. I really think what you are portraying as a Mormon concern is actually a general issue that exists in all denominations. It’s an aspect of human nature expressed through families and family affiliations, not some quirk of LDS doctrine, that generally drives the issue.
Comment by Dave — November 4, 2006 @ 3:44 pm
I have started several responses on this site before, but always deleted them before sending them. This one is close enough to my own situation that I felt compelled to write. Please excuse me if I make any blogging faux pas.
East Coast Girl -
My situation is a bit different than yours and my experience may not help you very much, but I hope it will. My husband and I were married in the temple 6 1/2 years go. Less than 2 years later he decided he no longer believed it was true.
I am not sure that anything I will suggest will be anything more than what most couples would find helpful in marriage in general, but here goes. Over the last 5 years we have learned that communication, understanding, compassion, compromise, humor, and giving each other room to vent (when needed) without taking it personally were essential in our marriage survival. And, before bringing up an issue, it was very important for me to think about what I was saying and how I would feel if I were my husband hearing these things from my wife. That often changed the way I worded discussions or the tone of voice I used (though probably not often enough!).
If you have kids, it is important to talk about changes in raising them before the moment of decision (they can go to this church activity; no they can’t) because often feelings are tender or flying around the room at those moments.
Your concern about the subject shows that you realize the significance of possible changes and that you love your husband and family enough to make it work. This same outlook and attitude is another thing which helped to keep us together.
Also, find out what he is investigating and talk to him about why he believes it. Not so you can convert, but so you will understand him better and who he has become. He will/may go through many changes and you may lose some/a lot of closeness if you do not understand who he is. I was afraid to talk to my husband about so many (most) things (I was afraid of losing my testimony of the gospel) and so we ended up talking about “nothing” for a year. That was a large pit to try and climb out of.
Anyway, I hope something I said helps you. Again, I know of lot of this isn’t specific to your situation, mostly just good marriage advice in general, but these are the things that I can think of which helped us. Many of them we learned the hard way because we realized we weren’t doing them. Sometimes I am surprised that we are still together, but we are, and we are happy.
Good luck to you!
Newcomer
Comment by Stacy — November 4, 2006 @ 4:10 pm
Ha! Well, I definitely showed that I have no idea what I am doing. I wanted to sign my name as Newcomer.
Comment by Stacy — November 4, 2006 @ 4:12 pm
I do think it’s mostly a Mormon, concern. It’s true that most denominations want their youth to marry within the faith, but is this because they also preach that unless a marriage is sealed in the temple it is not eternal and will not survive as a marriage after death?
What other doctrine from a(nother, for argument’s sake) Protestant church would forbid a spouse/mother from attending her Mormon daughter’s temple wedding?
These are very real concerns, not to be lumped with other religions’ doctrines and policies. The doctrine of sealing is what sets the Church apart. It is simply disingenuous to imply that “oh well, all other religions are the same.” It’s disingenuous to do so IMO.
Comment by Would rather not say today — November 4, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
I am an active mormon, my husband was raised Lutheran and doesn’t really believe in a God anymore( I don’t know if he ever did). We have lived in 3 different wards since getting married and have had pretty much the same reaction in all three. First the ” Hooray, a part member family we can convert!” and the missionaries come over all the time and I get winks and thumbs up and “I’m so glad you got him to come” every time he came to church with me. Then they realized that he just wasn’t that interested and start asking what they could do to get him to come to church more often. (uh, he’s not even a member!)
Expect to meet the missionaries lots but don’t be too offended, they mean well! And not everyone in the ward will be out to convert you. Some of our closest friends are lds and they really respect my husband and his choice of not being a mormon. I don’t know if it will be as difficult since you have a marriage before becoming a mixed member family. You already know each other and (hopefully)respect each others opinions and feelings.
My husband is very supportive of me and I usally take the kids with me to church. He will come every once in a while and it does get frusterating sometimes because I would like to discuss stuff I have learned at church and he is not really interested. Maybe that would be my advice is to listen and discuss what each of you have learned in your studies and in your church. Please don’t let either church come between you and your husband. Churches are there to help stregthen marriages and families and not to break them apart. good Luck!
Comment by purplesandel — November 4, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
My dh and I (not lds) had a similar experience, and it was a rough time for us.
I don’t want to go into details, so I’ll just say that we were together on a spiritual path, and suddenly we were not. Our sweet, open exchange was gone for a while. It wasn’t at all like him, and almost felt like he was having an affair.
That was us, our marriage, and our issue. You may have different ones. Best luck east coast gal. If your dh pursues this, it could be a potential testing ground for your relationship, as any religious/political/work/academic committment can be.
Comment by pele — November 4, 2006 @ 7:54 pm
This is a question about expectations in marriage. People change over time. When does change cross into “this isn’t what I signed up for” territory? At what point should someone forego their interests because it requires too much compromise from the other person?
There was a couple in my old ward in their 50s. Their son joined in college and not long after the husband joined. The wife came with him every week and was baptized a few years later. They were socially active, party hosting sort of people and boom, she suddenly has a husband who won’t drink, doesn’t want people drinking in their home, and a year later is wearing strange underclothing day and night. Their whole way of life shifted, not just his. That’s just the temporal stuff. What he now believed about life and its purpose had changed. That’s huge. That sort of paradigm shift affects how you live and everything you do (at least it should). In order to keep that marriage going, she had to compromise quite a bit.
So the questions are 1) Is it fair to the spouse when that’s not what they signed up for? 2) Is it fair to the spouse who comes to believe new things to expect them to forsake them? Where the heck is the balance?
I have known several couples who faced this from the other side. They married in the temple and had a spouse come to disavow the church. That’s utterly tragic for the one left behind at church. Yet you can’t force people to believe something or pretend to believe in what they don’t.
Sorry, east coast girl, I don’t have the answers. I will say what you already know living in an lds area - it’s not just a religion; it is a culture and way of life. If you haven’t already, study the religion and learn what the core beliefs are. Maybe you’ll want to join. Maybe you won’t. At a minimum you need to know what the crux is of your husband’s beliefs. It is an “inclusive” religion but that the inclusiveness means everyone goes through the temple - either in person or via proxy after they die. Are you alright with that? Families are the core unit you may end up feeling pressured or alienated or both. You’ll have to decide how much you compromise to accomodate this shift.
Good luck.
Comment by cg — November 4, 2006 @ 8:53 pm
I feel very sympatico to purplesandel. I’m an active chucrch member and my husband was raised Lutheran but is now pretty much agnostic. The way we work it is that I don’t pressure him and he doesn’t pressure me. He’s never come to church with me because he’s not interested. Sure, that makes it lonely for me sometimes, but I love him, I married him, and we generally take the attitude that we support each other in our interests and life. I have to echo Proud Daughter of Eve and say cut each other some slack and respect each other’s beliefs. Our kids come to church with me, but when I am ill or unable to attend my husband doesn’t take them. On one level it bothers me, but then I have to realize that just as he supports my taking them to church each week, I have to let them have some Dad-time too on Sundays without getting too annoyed by it. I know this is from the perspective of the lds side of the equation, but I hope it helps. Just be willing to love and support and communicate with your husband as always, and it will work out.
Comment by meems — November 4, 2006 @ 9:20 pm
Would Rather Not Say: One reason why you are *not helpful* is that you apparently didn’t read the original post very closely. The question is not about a Latter-day Saint marrying a non-member; it is about a marriage involving two non-members, one of whom may soon become LDS. Would you think it better that someone not convert at all because he is thereby creating a mixed marriage?
east coast girl: My parents had a mixed LDS/Protestant marriage at first (my father later became LDS too). I don’t really know what struggles they might have faced because of it; my parents believed that many issues concerning adults shouldn’t be imposed on young children. What I do remember, very fondly, is that my Protestant father spent many, many evenings helping my LDS mother prepare teaching aids for her Primary classes. There are probably many things that each spouse can do to support the other in faith and activity, which may even strengthen the marriage bond. I hope such things outweigh the natural difficulties. You certainly have the best wishes of a lot of us as you enter this new territory.
Comment by Ardis — November 4, 2006 @ 11:45 pm
I was in an interfaith marriage. I solved the “problem” by joining the church (although it took literally two years of study and prayer, since it’s not a decision to made lightly).
It depends almost entirely on the couple whether an interfaith marriage is going to work. It takes a great deal of respect as much as anything else.
Comment by Eric — November 5, 2006 @ 12:07 am
I’m in Stacy’s situation. My husband and I married in the temple more than ten years ago, and within a couple of years, he encountered serious doubts that have kept him on the fringes of activity ever since. He considers himself an agonstic cultural Mormon and finds value in the community but subscribes to few, if any, of the Church’s beliefs.
For years I felt a crushing sense of guilt about his doubts. When we married I was the liberal skeptic; I introduced him to all kinds of questions he had never entertained. The only other serious boyfriend I ever had also left the church over similar issues, which was one reason I didn’t marry him (oh, the bitter irony, to watch my temple-wedded husband going off to the same liberal Protestant church to which my former boyfriend had converted). I have long struggled over complex questions of influence and agency. I have no answers to the difficult question of how responsible we are for the permutations of our questions and doubts in others’ lives, for the conclusions they reach from our premises, but I have at last come to some measure of peace very much beyond understanding on this issue.
I’ve finally come to realize what I suppose every spouse eventually has to realize, that marriage, like every human relationship, is the paradox of complete love and devotion and absolute surrender of control over the other person. Of course my husband’s spiritual choices affect me profoundly. But there’s also a sense in which his choices are not mine, in which it’s deeply unfair of me to attempt to impose my own will on those choices. (Who am I to arrogate to myself a control over others that not even God would assume?) Strangely, recognizing that has brought me a great deal of peace. My work is not to sacrifice the real and complex flesh-and-blood human being he is to some idol of ideal LDS life or marriage in my head. My work is to love him more than I love my ideas of how my life should be.
I’ve been slow in learning all of this, and I’m still trying to learn it.
Comment by Eve — November 5, 2006 @ 12:09 am
Ardis, did you read my posts? Obviously I know the OP’s situation, since I (especially in comment #9) told her what she could expect if or when her husband joins the Church.
I’m not the one with the comprehension issues.
Comment by Would rather not say today — November 5, 2006 @ 12:17 am
love, communication and a willingness to compromise are the things needed to keep an[y] marriage working
Comment by Stephen M (Ethesis) — November 5, 2006 @ 6:44 am
I’m a product of a part member family where my mother converted about six years after my parents were married. They lived in Idaho for a few years and she joined shortly thereafter. My father did not, and being an atheist probably never will.
There was a lot of give and take on both sides. Like many have said, learn some of what is going on, it’ll will help you know where he is coming from. If he is talking to the missionaries, it might not be a bad idea to sit in on a discussion to see what is being taught. If he does join, do know there will be missionaries that will want to convert you, but if you let them know where you stand, they will back off(I know, I served a mission in Utah). My dad had fun with the missionaries, took them bike riding, had fun talking to them, etc, but we also helped by making it clear he wasn’t interested. That would be a place where your husband could support you in your decision. Any relationship is give and take, but having your husband willing to act as a insulator at times will be important.
Some people are really gung-ho about converting everyone(a.k.a. you), know they mean well, but don’t always have the social grace to seem so. Please be forgiving and understanding.
And once again, communication! I’m very glad to have had a parent on each side so to speak. It forced me to learn and know for myself what I believe in. While their marriage didn’t last(not because of the religion issue, so please don’t get scared), they’ve produced two very strong children, who know what they want and believe in. It has also made me, hopefully, more sensitive and understanding of those not of my faith. This could be a very good learning and growing experience, if you both choose to make it so. Good Luck!
Comment by soybeanlover — November 5, 2006 @ 7:07 am
we have a lovely enthusiastic member here in our branch whose wife chose not to be baptised she comes to some of our activites and has helped her dh to orgainse them. and she has formed good fiendships with some of us. it isn’t an issue. we would of course desperately love her to become one of us but she already feel part of us in many ways already she doesn’t feel ostracised etc and reached out to us when she had a recent bereavenment. DH has been endowed and served on the branch presidency and she ahs been fully supportive with that.
Debra uk
Comment by debrauk — November 5, 2006 @ 9:05 am
The best thing about this situation and other like it is that there’s always time to join the Church:
If your husband wants to wait to join, you both can be baptized into the Church posthumously (vicarious baptisms for the dead) and you can completely avoid any thorny interfaith marriage issues on earth.
If your husband joins and you don’t yet want to convert, after your death the ordinances of baptism, endowment and sealing can be performed for you.
Or–best case scenario–you could both join the Church together when you are ready.
Comment by Mary Alice — November 5, 2006 @ 10:06 am
There was a really lovely article in *Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Though* a while back on the topic of making interfaith marriages work. Annoyingly I haven’t been able to get the Dialogue page to work for two days, but when I get it to come up I’ll give you the link, East Coast Girl.
I don’t know if this is relevant, but my parents seem to have two slightly different types of Mormonism by which they abide, and it works out OK. My Dad gives my mother’s very conservative brand of faith the respect it deserves and she returns the favor. It’s not as complex as having two different religions, obviously, but their negotiation of theological difference united by a shared love for Jesus Christ seems quite workable to me.
Comment by Janet — November 5, 2006 @ 11:04 am
#25 “The best thing about this situation and other like it is that there’s always time to join the Church”
WHy is joining the church the best option?
“If your husband wants to wait to join, you both can be baptized into the Church posthumously (vicarious baptisms for the dead) and you can completely avoid any thorny interfaith marriage issues on earth.”
WHen I was investigating, I asked the missionaries why I couldn’t live life here as I wanted and just wait to be baptized mormon in the next life”. He said words to the effect of if you have a chance on earth and don’t take it, you’ve blown it and have no chance in the hereafter. I understand now that is not doctrinal, but it scared me into being baptized.
“Or–best case scenario–you could both join the Church together when you are ready”
Again, why is that the best case scenario for this couple?
Comment by Phouchg — November 5, 2006 @ 11:15 am
BTW, My wfe is a faithful member, but I have been losing my faith for years whereas now I am simply a member in name only. I haven’t been to church in 2 years and I probably won’t return. She wishes I were there with her, but she loves me for so much more than where I park my butt on Sundays.
Comment by Phouchg — November 5, 2006 @ 11:16 am
I was in a brief mixed marriage, he was LDS, I’m still Episcopalian. One reason the marriage failed was the intense pressure to convert, so I eventually filed for divorce because it was better that he marry among his own kind. No offense, I just understand why the LDS church has frowned on marrying non-members in the past, it causes too much conflict in the marriage. There were other issues in the marriage, but religion was the biggest one.
Comment by Adrienne — November 5, 2006 @ 1:29 pm
What is it about a pair of teenage missionaries that could trick someone into a now or never situation?
Comment by Bronwyn — November 5, 2006 @ 1:38 pm
My situation is different. I was born into an LDS home and married a non-LDS man. Before we married, everyone told me the marriage was doomed to fail because of the religious differences. We’ve been married for 7 years this month, and we have a very strong, healthy, happy marriage. He is supportive of my church callings. I pay tithing on the money I earn, though not on the money he earns (obviously). He drinks coffee and tea and sometimes he’ll have a beer, and that’s fine with me; after all it’s his choice. We love each other through thick and thin; religious difference is nothing.
Culturally, I’ve gone through a lot of crap. One of my sisters disowned me for marrying him. Members constantly ask me why he doesn’t come to church, which annoys me because it implies I’m somehow answerable for his choices. Sometimes we’ll get a zealous pair of missionaries who is sure they can convert him; they usually give up after one or two visits. My husband is happy to have them over for dinner but he really has no interest in joining, and sadly, most missionaries decide they don’t want to persue a friendship once they realise that’s how he feels. (That bugs me. One of the huge reasons my husband isn’t interested in the church is because he feels there’s a lot of phoniness there, and this sort of attitude, not just in missionaries but also in home teachers and other members, just reinforces that.)
The situation would definitely be more difficult if he had strong religious beliefs himself - if he felt strongly that my church was wrong and his was right, for instance. But he’s a happy agnostic, and I’m a disgruntled Mormon, so it works well.
Comment by Quimby — November 5, 2006 @ 4:19 pm
A couple of comments, one perhaps more relevant than the other.
First, regarding weddings (and the inevitable moaning about how a non-member mother can’t attend a faithful Mormon daughter’s temple wedding). I believe, to my core, that the parents have no inherent, default invitation to their children’s wedding. I don’t buy the whole “it’s customary”, “it’s my right to give her away” blarney. Your mission as a parent is to prepare your children for marriage, not ensure you get an invitation.
Second, I just want to recount my SIL’s life as in a mixed-marriage. (DW’s sister) married a non-member. SIL was raised LDS in SLC. She did the Mormon things. She graduated from seminary. She did all the typical 80s SLC YW things. Then she went off to Big Scary Overrated East Coast School and promptly started dating a non-member and married him a few years later.
Today, she and her husband are the richest among my wife’s siblings. They live in SLC, and they occasionally attend Church (although SIL’s DH hides out in the nursery). She doesn’t want anyone in the family talking to him about religion, as if she’s afraid we’ll turn him off from all religion. She is mildly antagonistic about the Church wherever it seems to “encroach” on her own circumstance. Like, it’s so offensive that she can’t attend her siblings’ weddings (actually, she could, but she has chosen not to receive her own endowments, even though her DH has said he has no problem). Like, it’s so offensive that her children learn in primary that they need to be sealed to their parents one day. Like, it’s so offensive for Mormons to continue to believe Joseph Smith was a good man even though “Rough Stone Rolling” “exposed” him. Like, how horrible it was she wasn’t hired — on the sole basis of her pedigree — to teach at a certain LDS institution when she finished grad school. Like, it’s so horrible the Church isn’t pro-life and pro-gay like her — because of who she is, of *course* she’s more capable of speaking on how the Church should be.
My SIL’s issues with the Church are mostly of her own creation. What she, and a lot of part-member families fail to remember, is that there is, and always will be, an inherent culture in the Church that favors the homogenous Mormon marriage unit. That will never change. I think my SIL would fare better in the Church if she didn’t live in Utah, but lived in California, Texas, or Washington, DC. (Then again, she might find her “big dog in small park” shtick wouldn’t fly outside SLC).
I think her biggest “issue” with the Church and her mixed-marriage circumstance is that she thinks that people look at her as being different from other two-parent-same-faith LDS families. The thing is, she *is* different. She professes to believe in a belief system that teaches, for one, that you should be sealed in the temple in order to achieve a certain level of reward in the hereafter — and then she deliberately and systematically chose to act in opposition to that belief system. My MIL cries when she considers that her favorite grandchildren (no joke) aren’t sealed to her.
I think that on a certain level (and this gets back to my first point about weddings and parents), my SIL has a belief that because she is talented and smart and good, all good things will automatically happen to her, just because she’s fated to receive them. That, if she just continues to set a lukewarm example, her husband will magically join the Church one day. I don’t think she has ever realized that sometimes, wishing doesn’t make it so.
In the meantime, she continues to try to position herself as the best Mormon among the children in the family, and my DW and her siblings have slowly started to ostracize her.
So what’s this mean? Not much - it’s just anecdotal. But my advice to the non-member spouse whose husband is investigating membership in the Church is this: Encourage your husband to fully embrace the gospel. Don’t let your non-member status affect his participation or mindset. Let him know that if he chooses this path, you’ll support him. That he should throw himself into it. That, sure, you’ll have differences of opinion, but that’s OK. That his life isn’t over because you haven’t joined him in membership, and that your life isn’t over because he’s gone that way.
Comment by queuno — November 5, 2006 @ 5:02 pm
Queno: It sounds like you feel a substantial amount of anger toward your sister-in-law. I hope you do not bring this resentment to others of us who are in mixed-faith marriages, for I found myself surprisingly stung by your comment.
“She professes to believe in a belief system that teaches, for one, that you should be sealed in the temple in order to achieve a certain level of reward in the hereafter — and then she deliberately and systematically chose to act in opposition to that belief system.”
I did not grow up intending to marry outside my faith, but my husband was undeniably placed in my path. Did I deliberatly “choose” him after I “found” him? Absolutely, and prayerfully. I have had a few hurtful comments fly my way, but mostly love and understanding — which we mixed faith families need if we are to stay. There have been times, however, when a comment such as the one above would have reduced me to tears — it’s damning. Please be watchful. You don’t know who’s lurking who needs to know that they can find refuge with the saints, no matter their personal journey.
And East Coast Girl — the most important baseline in our marriage (beyond love and communication): No expectation that the other will “change.” Because of course we *will* in the course of a lifetime together — in unexpected ways. That’s the leap of faith of any marriage. Journeying together, knowing that we are also journeying separately. Good luck with the next bend in the road.
Comment by Deborah — November 5, 2006 @ 9:05 pm
Quimby, regarding your husband, missionaries aren’t on missions to make friends. I learned that lesson after getting baptised. It was a learning curve for me to cut the apron strings, so to speak, and transition over to looking to the local members for support and friendship instead of the sister missionaries. I empathize with your husband’s position and I have a friend who’s non-member husband feels the same way - that there is phoniness. However, in the case of the missionaries, that’s not the case. A plumber is not going to keep coming over to talk about your pipes when you’ve made it clear you don’t need his services. So it is with the missionaries. It’s a job, and one with strict rules at that.
queno, that’s a hella long anecdote. Have you considered starting a blog?
Comment by cg — November 5, 2006 @ 9:20 pm
My work is to love him more than I love my ideas of how my life should be.
Eve, in some ways that could be a statement about marriage in general.
Comment by m&m — November 5, 2006 @ 10:04 pm
I think we should be compassionate about the “moaning” that non-members go through when they learn that when their loved ones join the church, they will in many cases be shut out of their emotional, spiritual and even physical spaces.
It’s not uncommon for even members of the Church to wonder why their loved ones can’t witness their temple sealings, or why they (the members) have to wait a year to be sealed if they don’t follow that pattern. It’s not a self-explanatory rule, and in most cases it’s never explained to non-members or investigators that upon joining the church and making certain covenants they will have to start wearing near full-body underwear, not invite their relatives to the actual weddings of their member children, and so forth.
It’s a big deal to some people, even if it’s not a big deal to you, queuno. Let’s not make fun of those it hurts.
Comment by Would rather not say today — November 5, 2006 @ 11:11 pm
M&M, I know only my own marriage, of course, but I suspect that in in all marriages some cherished ideas of how things are supposed to be (ideas which can be a kind of idolatry) have to be surrendered for the love of the other person. I don’t want to minimize the particular challenges that interfaith marriages face, but as I think Janet and others have said, no two spiritual lives or faiths coincide perfectly, even when both spouses are active members of the same religion, and so love and respect of difference are vital to any marriage, whatever the religions or lack of religions of the people involved. (And of course, temple marriage is no guarantee of anything.) I’ve found it very helpful to realize that my situation isn’t at all unique, and that the challenge I face in letting go of my expectations and loving and accepting my husband without reservation is really a universal one that we all face to some degree in all of our relationships (because no one is exactly who we might like them to be). Only the specific terms in which it plays out vary.
Comment by Eve — November 6, 2006 @ 12:32 am
My family is not LDS. I joined the Church after being married to my practicing Buddhist husband for just over three years. He personified what Eve wrote:
And I was able to be free to explore my spirituality all that I needed- it was a tremendous blessing and only made me love him all the more
It can be done, and done well. Good luck to you.
Comment by TracyM — November 6, 2006 @ 1:02 am
Yes, Eve, I really liked the idea of being willing to leave behind unhealthy expectations and notions of what a marriage “should” be like. Religion aside, that is an important principle, IMO (not to allow abuse or truly wrong and unhealthy behavior, of course, but to leave behind “but this is the way MY parents did it” or “this is the way I always dreamed marriage would be.”) Such scripts can create a perfect breeding ground for disappointment, disillusionment and frustration. Better to come with a sort of clean slate and work together to allow the marriage to be a union and institution that exists for the happiness and well-being of both spouses, and that is created uniquely by them, according to their shared hopes, goals, values, etc. (In a marriage with shared religious beliefs, of course those would likely come into play as well.) These are things I have been thinking a lot about lately, so I appreciated what you said. And I think the principles are valuable for east coast girl or anyone in a situation where marriage dynamics are changing. Marriage is a constant negotiation, not a static entity.
Comment by m&m — November 6, 2006 @ 1:03 am
I can’t imagine how hard something like that must be. Especially living in SLC. Seems like a situation like that would put the importance of communication between you and your spouse at a whole new level. You seem very open and understanding though, which is a really good thing.
Comment by Jenn — November 7, 2006 @ 8:23 pm
This is totally off topic, and everyone seems to have moved on anyway, but this idea that Mormons will posthumously baptize (by proxy) every person they’ve ever known has been mentioned repeatedly. I don’t understand this at all. My stepmother is not LDS and she has specifically told me that she does NOT want to “have her work done” after she passes on. She doesn’t want to be a Mormon in this life, and it’s not like she’s never had the opportunity to seriously consider it (being married to my LDS father and all), so why would I bother having her baptized after she’s dead? I would consider that a waste of time at best. Or am I just a bad Mormon? That’s also a possibility.
Comment by madhousewife — November 8, 2006 @ 12:45 pm
Madhousewife, I look at it this way: believing what we do about the after-life, how can we NOT do the work for the people we know? They’re still free to accept or reject it but when they have passed on and posthumous work is the only way for them to recieve the blessings that we believe in and we CAN help them but choose not to… it’s just wrong. Like saying “Look, you had all your life to learn how to swim and now you’re drowning and it’s not my job to help you; you should have done it yourself sooner.” (I’m sorry if that example seems a little extreme; it’s all I can come up with just now to express what I’m thinking. In no way do I mean to cast aspersions on others who don’t think that way.)
Comment by Proud Daughter of Eve — November 8, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
madhousewife - my husband jokes that everyone is sitting merrily up in heaven, and then suddenly some Mormon comes along and does their proxy work, and they are sucked into this vortex . . .
If your stepmother has specifically asked you not to do her temple work, I would respect her wishes. That doesn’t mean her work won’t be done at some later date by some other descendant. And it doesn’t mean she’ll always feel that way. This is going to sound kooky but I believe our loved ones can, sometimes, communicate to us from beyond. I’m not a John Edwards fan or anything like that - I don’t think it happens like that - but I’ve had a couple of experiences where I’m sure someone I know who has passed over was passing on an important message to me.
Comment by Quimby — November 8, 2006 @ 8:50 pm
The ordinances of temple work bring up more questions than they can answer, such as:
1. Why is it assumed that the dead spouse would even WANT to be sealed to the person she was marriedd to or had kids with while alive? Most people who have ever lived have NOT been in a romantic relationship with their spouses as we understand love and romance, and even if they were at some point in their lives, that doesn’t mean they would want to . Why bother do the work when they most likely will be given (or choose) another spouse in the next life anyway?
2. Millions of people (billions?) have not been “married” the way we now understand it to be. And there have been clandestine extra-marital straight and gay relationships since time immemorial. Why should we on earth be expecting to be moralizing busybodies, sealing everyone to everyone else just because some justice of the peace record or old journal says they belong together?
Comment by Would rather not say today — November 9, 2006 @ 7:30 am
Question. Don’t you have to be sealed here on Earth (the work done here) in order to even have a spouse in the next life? If that is the case then it is worth doing the work for them so they can actually have a choice. Otherwise there is no choice for them to make.
Comment by Jenn — November 9, 2006 @ 10:27 am
Both you and your husband might consider reading (along with his studies of the LDS faith) “The Refiner’s Fire, The making of Mormon Cosmology,1644-1844″ written by John L. Brooke who was or still is a professor at Tufts University. This book was a winner of the Bancroft Prize in American History, the Book Prize of the Society of Historians of the Early American Republic, and the New England Historical Associations Annual Book Award. It is fascinating and well written and provides the historical background in which Joseph Smith was born and raised. It presents many facts and yet manages to make no conclusions. It is one of the most fascinating and important books I have ever read. I suggest it to anyone who is or is thinking of becoming a Mormon.
Comment by Belinda — November 10, 2006 @ 5:48 pm
I think that if your husband does convert, a lot of how things go in your marriage will depend on how involved he wants to become in the Church, and how intense that involvement becomes. And it will depend on the attitudes of the other people in his ward. Sadly, some marriages between Mormons and non-Mormons don’t withstand the differences in the belief systems. It’s something to think about. You have the huge benefit of this board, and the excellent posters here are spelling out some of the aspects of the situation. You are becoming informed. I hope your husband, should be choose to convert, will continue to be the loving, supportive, and non-demanding person with you that he no doubt already is. He can pursue his beliefs and allow you the freedom to choose another path. Too many times, the Church and its practices can encroach on “mixed” couples’ ability to do this. All the best — I hope things turn out well for you.
Comment by Catherine — November 10, 2006 @ 9:56 pm
Hi all!
I know posting here more than a month after is rather late, then I just found this place and have been reading the posts daily to catch up with all that has been written here (and I am not nearly done).
I live in Germany and have been raised roman catholic. Now as far as inter-religion marriages go I can contribute from my own life experiences as a daughter spawned from such a match and as a wife living in such.
I am not trying to give advice since many of what has been said before is advice enough. I just want to tell a story to show how an inter-religious marriage can work out even if it was made hard for the couple to start.
My parents nearly did not get the permission to marry in church. The priests would not give them the blessing since my father is protestant and my mother is roman catholic. They lived in a part of Bavaria (Germany) where catholicism is rather strict (being the arch-bishop’s seat). Lo and behold! they found a priest who would marry them under the condition that the children would be educated in the mother’s religion, since the conection of the child to the mother is a special one; this was a protestant. So this person would be advising to raise a child rather in the religion which was not his own for the well-being of the child and its relationship with the mother.
So my parents match was made (in heaven).
They have been married for over thirty years now and have (not to my knowledge) never had a squabble about religion and how spirituality should be conducted.
How did they do it? My guess is that they simply followed one thing: they are both christians. They both believe in the goodness of man and to be kind to “thy neighbor”. The exposed me to all sorts of religions and knew to let me choose myself, giving me nudges along the way and showing me how they would cope with distress. I went to the protestant service as well as the roman catholic services (nevermind my preference now).
Now I am not a practicing catholic anymore. I am disturbed by the teachings of this church, by the way they seem to treat (especially women) like children without a mind of their own. I believe in the teaching of Jesus Christ and try to be a good human being where possible ( but ah, the flesh is weak sometimes). My husband is agnostic. He is spiritual, mind you, but does not find any religion really meets a human’s needs. He does not think lowly of me (as I am sure many agnostic/atheist people would do) for believing the way I do, for having the need to attend mass once in a while and just feel the spiritual connection that you can find in religion. He loves the person I am even when I have the quirky thing “religion”. I intend to have our children baptised and have the whole roman catholic upbringing. And this might sound surprising since I quit the church. Yet, I still see the good things that have been given to me by the up-bringing this way. I will teach my children about the teachings minus the guilt that rc instills in the people. I do not want to force my children to believe I want them to find for themselves wha tis good for them. I know about the rc the most so this is where I want to show them the first steps. They will learn about the others in time (and there is many a religion out there….)
East cost girl:
I hope a glimpse into somebody else’s life has given you something. I was just wanting to share that (as I have experienced with my parents) inter-religious marriages can work out for decades if both do want it. Tolerance and love will make it work. In the case of Episcopal and Latter Day Saints just remember: The most important thing is Jesus Christ for the both of you…and love.
Comment by Verena — December 11, 2006 @ 4:03 am
Whether or not a marriage of a Mormon to a non-Mormon will also depend on the ward the member will attend. In my case, I was the non-member and my ex was a member. The bishop and RS sisters made sure to make her feel that her marriage was inferior and wrong on at least a bi-weekly basis. That started a rift between us. From there on out, nothing I could do was good enough to prove to her that our marriage was valid and right. The bishop kept on driving that wedge until she could no longer remain married to me unless I joined and we were sealed in a temple. I couldn’t honestly believe in the church’s doctrines, so our marriage ended after three and a half years. I do miss her terribly, and she’s not handling things well at all. Her family and ward do all they can to keep reassuring her that she made the correct decision, however I doubt she agrees. Her health is suffering. Last time I saw her she’d lost a lot of weight, too much to be healthy, she looks anorexic. She was also shaking uncontrollably. I fear for her mental and physical health. I can’t pin all of her health problems squarely on the church, but I can say that if that bishop would have just let us be happy and not stuck his nose so far into our marriage, we’d have had much better chances.
Please tell your husband to be careful, and realize that the missionaries will not always answer his questions truthfully. He needs to investigate the church beyond the baptismal font. He needs to realize how the church’s doctrines can impact his family, both positively and negatively. Heh, family. Isn’t it about time? Only if both spouses and your children believe 110%.
Comment by anon — December 11, 2006 @ 10:48 am
I don’t know much about being part of a part-member family. Although my husband was converted to the gospel over a year before we were married, we are both active (though struggling in some ways). However, I feel safe to say that the actions of the ward in splitting your family apart (#49) were not in keeping with either the doctrine or the policies of the Church. Although part-member marriages are discouraged (for obvious reasons) it has never been Church policy to separate spouses.
Sometimes well-meaning but misguided people wreak far more damage than they realize. Bishops, missionaries and Relief Society presidencies are all human and fallible. I think that is one thing that is hard to come to terms with - whether one is not a member, a “convert” or born in the Church.
Comment by UnicornMom — December 11, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
(to unicorn mom) True, it doesn’t seem doctrinal, or in order with the teachings of Christ to split up a marriage, but that was the result of the situation. Celestial Marriage is a major part of LDS doctrine, and it *will* become an issue at some point if the OP’s husband takes the church very seriously. I fully understand and agree that nobody is perfect, but the bishop’s actions were far from accidental. I’m just giving the OP fair warning…. misguided administration can be found in *any* organization, and that can be dangerous in religious organizations, especially one that takes unification of familial religious belief as seriously as the LDS church.
Comment by anon — December 11, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
I’m a young woman from a nondenominational church of Christ background who is considering marriage with an LDS man… I do not understand Mormon beliefs and I am very strong in my own, yet I am so concerned about the situation that I came looking for answers on this site… He will not marry outside the religion and even though I would have an interfaith marriage I am not going to convert.
Comment by COCgirl — January 2, 2007 @ 12:24 pm
I am not sure why you are asking this question. If you are not going to convert–and he therefore he won’t marry you, what is the question? It seems clear this marriage isn’t going to happen. There is nothing to consider.
Comment by mami — January 2, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
i am lds mormon and have been dor 28 years. my husband went inactive and it is like living in hell as he apposes everything about the lord and it upsets me so much and i feel alone in my battle to get back home to Heavenly father.
But I do know if I am faithful and make exaltation i shall be given to another man who is far worthy of my love and devotion.
Jesus states in the D&C be not equally yoked with unbeleivers.
For this comment it is dangerous as the other party may hve a huge influence on the LDS partner.
Comment by Susan — August 10, 2008 @ 7:04 am
Oh by the way I forgot to mention that the church is true and i love the Lord with all of my heart and i put him above anyone or anything else in my life.
He sacrificed his life for all of us, so don’t you all think that we should show him the same appreciation and respect that he so richly deserves, I DO
Comment by Susan — August 10, 2008 @ 7:07 am
Dear cco girl you are so lucky to have this man in your life, but why he decided to look out of his faith for a wife is beyond me. If you were to join us you would find true last eternal happiness only found in Jesus Christs church and your marriage goes beyond this life, but if you 2 decide to get married your marriage to him will end at death and he will be given to another woem in the eternities. so why take the chance of losing the man you truly love because of ignorance and lack of knowledge which i am sure he would teach you only if you would let him
Comment by Susan — August 10, 2008 @ 7:15 am
Susan, this is largely the struggle that I am currently dealing with. My wife told me, today, after 6 1/2 years of marriage 5 1/2 in the temple and 4 kids later that she does not think that she can live the LDS life anymore. I was raised LDS in a very conservative family and have really never known any other religion with any intelligence. When I first met my wife she was an inactive member, raised in an inactive family. We started dating and became serious very quickly and I told her that unless we would get sealed in the temple 1 year after we got married that I would not marry her. She completely changed her life for me, which is something that I thought no one would ever really do. We got married and sure enough a year later went through the temple and were sealed together. She fell right in to the LDS life and seemed to enjoy church and began getting callings, and even served in the primary presidency of our ward. Then within the past 6 months she started drastically falling away from the church. Today she told me that she wished she had been stronger 6 and 1/2 years ago and told me that she didn’t want to live her life in the church and that she is tired of living her life for everyone else. Yet she doesn’t want to divorce me, and I don’t want to divorce her. I love her with all the love that I possess and desire more than anything to be with her for all eternity. I do not have any desire to be with any other woman now or in the hereafter. I do not take comfort or joy in the thought of being “placed” with another women after I die. I also know that the church teaches that divorce is only acceptable for adultery or fornication. Not apostacy. I made an eternal commitment to love and honor and cherish my wife and I intend to do so. I do not believe that Christ expects us to leave those we hold dearest because they leave the church nor would he seperate us in the next life. Progression is eternal and that includes people like me and my wife who decided within the last few hours to not practice the churches teachings. I hold faith deep within my heart that even if she doesn’t ever live the life we should in this life that she will still be taught in the next and I will be able to be with her for eternity. I have to hold on to this because right now it’s all I have, and I abhorre the thought of not having her with me. Our feelings and thoughts and emotions do not change when we cross through the veil, this is why continued education even beyond death is so important. I know that I am not perfect and not living all of the principles the church teaches right now, but I believe that God still loves me and my wife, and desires to see our bond as an eternal one once again. He desires this happiness for all of us, and perhaps in my stubborness I have faulted in this life, but the education in the next might just straighten me and my wife around. Because no comfort is provided at the thought of suffering through this life, while the one true joy is my spouse, and then ending up with someone else in the next. Christ forgave those whom no one else would, and loved those whom no one else desired too. I hold my faith in him for my spouse, myself, my family, and our eternity.
Comment by struggling — March 17, 2009 @ 8:35 pm
Struggling,
My heart really goes out to you. I can’t tell you how much I applaud you for wanting to do what it takes to make your marriage work in spite of your wife’s loss of faith. I’ve often heard Mormons say that they consider apostasy valid grounds for divorce. I don’t know if that’s church policy, but I don’t think it’s right. The Bible says to stay with your spouse even if he or she is an unbeliever.
I am an active evangelical Christian and my husband is an active Latter-day Saint, and that was what we were when we got married. I have blogged about my interfaith marriage story here:
My Mormon-Evangelical Interfaith Marriage
I include links to other LDS interfaith marriage articles on Part 3: Engagement. Marriages between people of different faiths can work.
Good luck to you.
Comment by Bridget Jack Meyers — March 18, 2009 @ 1:44 am