110 Comments

1. Question: why haven’t you been kissed?

   Comment by Anon — December 5, 2006 @ 6:07 pm

2. Anon - that was a rude question.

   Do you think your obsession may have something to do with the fact that the law of chastity is so focused on at church. Don’t get me wrong, I thing chastity is a good thing, but it does seem to me that the lds church focuses on it quite a bit. It’s like a diet. Once you go on a diet, all you can think about is food. I’m not suggesting that the church go the other way and let sex be a free for all, but maybe not focus on it so much?

   Also - masturbation. Why is this so strictly taboo? It could provide a physical release. I would rather my daughter masturbate then rush to marry a man that she doesn’t even know, just to not burn.

   Comment by Beth — December 5, 2006 @ 6:14 pm

3. Once you have sex, you will figure out that its not as important as all that. It sounds like part of your problem is that your sister is saying impure things and impure things are surrounding you all the time. Change your environment and you will help to change your thoughts. Also you should put all that sexual energy into doing good…it really does help to think about other peoples needs sometimes when we get too focused on our own desires.

   Marriage is so much more than sex. Heavenly Father is sparing you a marriage that would be based only on that…be grateful…because that fades a bit after the shine is off and you are left to build a life with someone that you maybe didnt consider too much beforehand.

   Do not allow yourself to be in a situation where you might be tempted since you are so certain that you are temptable. Double date!

   Comment by Lynda — December 5, 2006 @ 6:16 pm

4. Temptation is not a sin. There is nothing wrong with you for desiring sex. Just keep doing what you (haven’t) been doing and don’t feel guilty for being tempted.

   And don’t think kissing, etc. would help–I think most people will tell you that any physical activity will increase your desire, not reduce it.

   Comment by Julie M. Smith — December 5, 2006 @ 6:33 pm

5. Ummm… I’m gonna go on record and say this one is a hoax…

   Comment by Geoff J — December 5, 2006 @ 6:37 pm

6. Lynda,
   No offense, sister, but I think the “sex is no big deal” advice isn’t going to be of much help. First of all, it is a big deal. And second, a sex drive is a normal healthy thing for women to feel. Plus, did you not just read about all her attempts to remove “impure” things from her life. Come on! It sounds like she lives in a nunnery.

   Personally, I think she should find some minimally passable Mormon guy and do the quicky marriage thing. Those things always turn out well.

   I had her edit this post a bit for length, and she removed some masturbation stuff, I was thinking that we’d just had that discussion, plus she feels the big M is not an option for her, and I figured we’d been there done that. So I’m thinking maybe we shouldn’t make this into another masturbation debate. If you all can manage that. Or whatever. (Personally, I totally think she should just take care of things, but hey, we all have to make our own choice eh?)

   The thing I find most interesting in this post is the idea that a Healthy Normal woman with an iron will and strong values . . . and a sex drive . . . feels like a whore. She feels unclean simply because her body is doing exactly what it was made to do. Now that, is worth talking about.

   Comment by fMhLisa — December 5, 2006 @ 6:39 pm

7. Geoff,
   I really don’t think so . . . I’ve been exhanging emails with this poster (I can’t remember if she puts her name on it or not). But judging our exchanges,I really do believe she is who and what she says. But then I tend to give the benefit of the doubt in these online matters. You could be lying about who you are too, but I tend to believe you as well.

   One of the reasons I also believe her is that I felt almost exactly as she did, even several years younger. I never dated much. I’d only really kissed one boy before my dh. And I had a very strong sex drive. To the point where I wanted to scream. I was lucky enough to meet a perfect man and marry young and well.

   Comment by fMhLisa — December 5, 2006 @ 6:45 pm

8. Hehe. Well maybe you are right Lisa. Sure sounds like a dude yanking our chains to me. For instance this line:

   But it’s hard to feel good/pure/clean when I just want to get it on ALL THE TIME

   is a bit over the top don’t you think?

   (Although I must say that every devout single Mormon guy reading this is thinking 1) “Welcome to my world”, and 2) “I hope I can marry a girl like that”.)

   I’m just saying it has a lot of the earmarks of a hoax is all… even if it is an amusing one.

   Comment by Geoff J — December 5, 2006 @ 6:59 pm

9. P.S. I found Lisa’s comment about living in a nunnery to be quite amusing. I did recently graduate from a Catholic university which was founded by nuns. The nuns live right next door to campus. I work for that same Catholic university now. One of my friends just became a nun a couple of months ago and I went to her convent for the weekend to see her off (just got a letter from her yesterday, too!). I associate with nuns on an almost daily basis. So the bit about me living in a nunnery isn’t that far off!

   Comment by I Feel Like a Whore — December 5, 2006 @ 7:30 pm

10. I felt the same way- like a whore- well not really like a whore, but I hated it when I dated a guy who had to slow me down since all you here in church is how guys are the ones that need to be stopped and slowed down and girls just don’t feel the same feelings- but I did big time. I thought I was alone. So I like hearing about other women who have healthy sex drives, there is nothing dirty in it.
    Anyway my advice is exercise. Running is a great sexual release even for only 10 minutes as hard and fast as you can until you feel like puking. Also, sit ups and pilates that work the adominals (like the plank, or male push ups) and other muscles down there also is a good healthy way to get rid of those feelings.

    Comment by cory — December 5, 2006 @ 7:38 pm

11. geoff-
    I hate that you think a man wrote this. why is it so hard to believe women want sex? That is part of the problem. where is the apology? There are real feelings at stake and a comment like that could be really damaging. This is coming from experience. Being told you feel like a dude is just as bad as feeling like a whore since it is saying you are feeling a way you shouldn’t be feelilng.

    Comment by cory — December 5, 2006 @ 7:45 pm

12. oh and btw- I later learned how some women struggle and struggle to find their sex drive so think of it more as a blessing than a curse, honestly.

    Comment by cory — December 5, 2006 @ 7:48 pm

13. I think one point that is being missed here is that single women often have greater sex drives than married women. This is for a variety of reasons. Sometimes the man is just too inexperienced or too selfish to discover what will satisfy his wife. More often, sex is rushed and the woman doesn’t get enough ‘warm up’ time…especially after becoming a mother and the subsequent changes in your body, health, hormones, and lack of time alone combined with sheer exhaustion.

    I am pleased to have found that I have an extremely strong sex drive. Unfortunately, my husband has what I consider a lower than normal drive (for a man). This leads to some frustration on my part, but when it does happen we are great together! After 10 years we are still discovering each other and finding new ways to please each other sexually. Most important, we have open communication with each other.

    I like the suggestion of vigorous exercise. I would also recommend a blessing. You don’t need to tell the person who blesses you what it is for…just tell them you are being tempted to break a commandment and need help and extra strength to overcome your temptations.

    Comment by tongancat — December 5, 2006 @ 8:21 pm

14. Imagine Guest to VT: So, Alice, what do you do when you feel so horny, you think your head might explode?

    I suspect many more women feel this way than you might think. The most important thing you need to know is that you and your feelings are normal. As much as some people like to think that young women don’t or shouldn’t have a sex drive, it is just a stereotype. Some women have a strong drive, some don’t. Some men have a strong drive, some don’t. Even then it changes over time and circumstance. It sounds like you have a remarkable grasp of what you need to do (or not do) and are doing it.

    I believe a healthy sex drive is a gift. To keep it in check is a chore, but you are fine. Keep looking for Mr. Exceptional - never settle.

    Comment by Annastasia — December 5, 2006 @ 8:30 pm

15. First of all, please please please stop referring to yourself as a whore. I know you’re just saying you feel like one, but stop it. You are not a whore. You should not feel like one. You are a woman with high moral convictions and a sex drive. That’s all. Since I’m probably never going to meet anyone here in IRL, I can admit that I had a tremendous sex drive at your age too. I would think about it all the time and was going crazy. People would ask “why don’t you have a boyfriend?” and I couldn’t very well say, “I don’t have a boyfriend because if I did I’d be naked in a about a minute and a half!” I’ve been married for 18 years next week and my DH was my first and only boyfriend. Anyway, all I can say is, I’ve been there, and it isn’t easy. Keep doing what you’re doing and be strong. Your future husband is out there somewhere!

    Comment by meems — December 5, 2006 @ 10:13 pm

16. I certainly agree that it is very troubling that a woman would feel ‘like a whore’ for merely *wanting* to have sex (really wanting is still just wanting). It says something depressing about our culture that we expect women to look sexy but never want sex.

    As far as practical help goes, I’d say to wear yourself out- that’s how most women kill their sex drives, overactive or not. Exercise is probably the easiest way if you are self-motivating. I’m not especially self-motivating so I would need something like an additional job, or to join a sport league or a exercise/dance class, something where someone is expecting me to be there regularly.

    Comment by Starfoxy — December 5, 2006 @ 10:16 pm

17. I agree! Right now, a demanding job, 2 small kids, and a million stressors factoring into my crazy life - I can tell you — this kills the ol’ sex drive pretty effectively!

    Comment by meems — December 5, 2006 @ 10:19 pm

18. You’re absolutely not alone. I had a few boyfriends in college, and many a multi-hour make-out session where they boy was pleading with me to let him go home. Maybe it was different for me b/c the making-out was enough, I didn’t want to go all the way (it seemed scary and wrong).
    And like a previous commentor, I had a greater sex drive than my husband during our first year or so of marriage. (It wasn’t after the kids came that mine dove below his).
    As far as advice, if you think that making-out would relieve your tension, you should find a way to make that happen (I know, easier said than done) maybe an old boyfriend, etc.
    I remember hearing that a young person’s sex drive is much higher than any other person’s for the purpose of getting married. If it wasn’t there, the annoying details might get in the way. . .
    Good luck, and keep us updated on your progress. .
    p.s. I’ve heard that a woman’s sexual peak is in her 40’s, so don’t think that the best of your sex life is passing you by single. There’s plenty of steamy sex to be had later in life.

    Comment by jessawhy — December 5, 2006 @ 10:32 pm

19. This is slightly off topic but I once saw an Oprah on sex issues in couples. I was pleased that they had a couple on there where the woman had the higher sex drive. I was devastated however when the therapist brought on to the show advised that the wife was actually just seeking more attention and affection from her husband. Why couldn’t she just want sex more than her husband? And this was a female therapist. I was furious. Men can want more sex than women, but if women want more sex than men then it must mean they are needy or somehow just emotionally hungry.

    Comment by cory — December 5, 2006 @ 11:21 pm

20. I married in my late thirties–as a virgin–with the same problems.

    I would go to bed screaming, praying, sweating, cursing–whatever it took.

    I had LDS friends in their 30s and 40s who, in moments of weakness, either married poorly (first meeting with creepy internet guy) or just started having sex to have sex.

    The three things I hated most when I was in your situation:

    1. Singles wards’ bishops (or regular ward leaders) who insisted on talking about the law of chastity as though you were:

    (a) fourteen years old and had no idea about your body, safe sex, or anything else

    (b) stupid
    (c) weak and depraved for having a sex drive, let alone a strong one

    2. People who insisted you were lying because either

    (a) women didn’t have a sex drive at all or
    (b) if you were “righteous” enough you’d “feel the spirt all the time” which would mean you “would be able to ‘control yourself’ ”

    3. People who believed that only ugly women didn’t ever get dates or didn’t marry. It’s amazing how many people in the Church think this in this day and age. Positively mind-boggling.

    Comment by AFN — December 6, 2006 @ 12:23 am

21. Sex drives are gifts from God–so long as we keep them inside the boundaries he’s set there’s no reason to feel whorish.

    That said, I can understand your frustration. I never had quite your problem, but once I fell in love with a guy–whoo, things got difficult. I second those who recommend vigorous work-outs. I used to run, hike straight up the sides of cliffs, and swim until I thought my lungs would exlode. I also felt like extremely honest prayer helped. I figured that if God gave me the sex drive and the love for the man I was dating (and i always felt he gave me both) then he wouldn’t be too shocked to hear I was struggling. Just venting to God made me feel better, actually. Dating boys who respecting and/or shared my religious values also helped of course.

    I made it to marriage, and I’m pretty sure God and a lot of workouts really helped. Hang on for the good guys, though–the bad ones won’t be good husbands OR good lovers, in all liklihood.

    Comment by Janet — December 6, 2006 @ 12:35 am

22. Count me as one of those surprised that anyone would think this a likely hoax. I mean, I guess it could be, sure — who knows what sorts of pervy folk are out there — but it’s also 100% normal and reasonable for a woman to feel this way! Particularly a purposely celibate woman! Why is that such a revelation?

    I don’t have many “traumatized by Mormon culture” stories, but I do have one (culture as opposed to doctrine because boy howdy did I internalize a good principle to a bad extreme). When I was 15 I found myself in a NCMO relationship with the brother of one of my friends. It lasted for about two weeks, at which point I broke it off becuase I decided I liked kissing WAY TOO MUCH, and who knows what I’d like next…? *Nudge, nudge, wink, wink!*

    Okay, so it’s probably reasonable for a girl who’s not even allowed to date to stop the NCMOs, lol. What was unreasonable was feeling like a whore (a word I hate, but an appropriate description of my horrible private shame) and going out of my way for the NEXT 10 YEARS to avoid all contact with men. I rarely dated, and when I did (usually blind dates set up by worried relatives) I was so aloof as to push everyone away. And to make some question whether I might prefer girls. Which, uh, I don’t.

    …Not that the avoidance helped alleviate my sex drive any, or improve my self confidence….

    When I did finally break through and start seeing someone seriously (DH), I felt the need to “confess” my sordid past. Which still seemed horrible and whorish to me — but “10 years ago I kissed a boy and liked it and I’ve been consumed by guilt about it ever since” only made him laugh. (In a kind, pitying sort of way, lol.)

    I don’t have any constructive new advice (though the exercise suggestion sounds good!) but I wanted to tell you this embarrassing story about myself so you’d know you’re not alone, either in the healthy sex drive or the shame because of it. I wonder if, knowing that more women (even faithful LDS women!) felt the same way I did, I would have punished myself less, let go of my virgin/whore complex so I could think and behave rationally. I was sooooo consumed by my sinful lustiness because I was sure my feelings went way beyond the norm. They don’t. Yours don’t. I hope acknowledging that helps in some small way to alleviate your anxiety.

    Now go hit the gym, sister.

    Comment by RCH — December 6, 2006 @ 1:01 am

23. I am so sexually frustrated that I could literally scream–and I almost did the other night when I was driving home from work.

    You might try screaming, actually. Sometimes it helps.

    I dated an LDS woman pretty seriously in graduate school. One night driving home from a date, I could tell something was wrong. She was becoming increasingly sullen and unresponsive. I asked what was the matter, and she said she didn’t want to talk about it. But she was obviously unhappy, so I insisted on asking again. She finally burst out, “I’m so sexually frustrated, I could just scream!”

    I thought about that a minute. “Why don’t you?” I said.

    “What?” she said.

    “Scream.”

    So she did — an ear-splitting shriek. It cracked us both completely up. I had to pull over for about half an hour while we both laughed hysterically. It actually made her feel better, and it broke a lot of tension. And, frankly, it probably kept us out of trouble that night.

    Comment by diogenes — December 6, 2006 @ 6:20 am

24. I can assure you all that my story is legitimate. Thanks to fmhLisa for coming to my defense. I have posted on this site before–this is my third guest post–but wanted to stay anonymous for this one.

    Beth–thanks for your response to Anon’s (1) comment. I can see your point with the diet/food analogy (especially since I’ve recently attempted them!). Part of me knows that somewhere down the road of life I’m going to wonder why I was once so obsessed, much the way I now laugh at myself for being ashamed that I didn’t get my driver’s license until the ripe old age of 17. Unlike the desire to drive a car, though, a sex drive is a much harder thing to deny. I failed my driver’s test more than once, but I kept trying, assured that I’d have all these chances. And then I got it. But I can’t reassure myself that I’ll only have a certain amount of waiting when it comes to marriage. Yes, I know every worthy person will have the chance, but what if my chance doesn’t come until the spirit world?

    As for the masturbation bit, as Lisa wrote in a later comment, my original submission contained a lengthy section explaining my history with it. (To make a long story short, I once was a regular masturbator, but quit shortly before graduation from high school and have since been to multiple bishops trying to rid myself of the guilt.) I did read the recent masturbation debate, but I don’t feel it’s something I could resume. I do see your point about masturbation being preferable to rushed marriage, though.

    Lynda–I wish I could look at my life and say, “aha! It’s all that porn I’m watching/it’s all those strip clubs I’m going to/etc. That’s my problem and now I can cut it out.” I am, for the record, BY NO MEANS suggesting that pornography (or anything like unto it) is an easy habit to kick. My point is that if I was a porn addict (or whatever) I think I might stand a better chance of pinning down the source of my problem. My biggest frustration is that I don’t know what I can do. I’ve never watched porn. I don’t go to strip clubs. I don’t watch R rated movies (okay, I’ve seen a couple for classes in college, but I don’t make a point of going to theatres to seek them out). I don’t listen to racy music (and have been butting heads with coworkers recently to get them to turn some of their stuff off). I go to church/church activities several times a week. I don’t know where I can change, but I know I’ve got to do SOMETHING so I don’t go beserk.

    As for the double date suggestion, I wish I could have a date PERIOD. Earlier this year when I tried to set up a group activity, I was told I needed to “grow up” and go for solo dates or nothing.

    Julie–thanks for your comment about temptation not being a sin. Somewhere in my heart of hearts I know that, but in this particular struggle it’s easy to forget. As for the “kissing might not help” bit, I’ve sometimes wondered–half seriously, half jokingly–if the reason I haven’t experienced these things is because God knows that such experiences might just open the floodgates and let me loose. So perhaps my husband will be the first–and only–guy that ever gets a kiss from me.

    Geoff–I’m really surprised that you would say that you think this is a hoax. I would say I’m offended, but I think confused is the better word, honestly. I am a real person dealing with a real struggle, and it wasn’t until I had read this site for several months that I realized that maybe I’m not the only one. That’s why I was willing to spill these most embarassing details to this crowd because I figured it was the best chance I had to get some feedback and be understood.

    As a general note to all, since writing the original post, I talked about my mom about all this as we were on our way home from a bridal shower where the (soon to be temple married) bride received several racy gifts. She was quite shocked, saying she always thought I “would have trouble” which such things. I guess I can console myself with the fact that even my own mother can’t detect this struggle, so I must be hiding it well.

    Comment by I Feel Like a Whore — December 6, 2006 @ 6:23 am

25. I hate that you think a man wrote this. why is it so hard to believe women want sex? That is part of the problem. where is the apology? There are real feelings at stake and a comment like that could be really damaging. This is coming from experience. Being told you feel like a dude is just as bad as feeling like a whore since it is saying you are feeling a way you shouldn’t be feelilng.

    Some men want to think of their wives and other women as virginal, no desires or sexual feelings. I’m not sure why, or if it’s a LDS thing. My wife has told me about church functions she’s been too where the main topic of conversation eventually moves to how much each of the women hate sex, how their husbands always want it, and how gross it is. Then the few women like my wife that peep up to say they enjoy sex are given the “poor you, you’ve been brainwashed” look. Because a woman couldn’t possibly enjoy sex. She thinks their mothers and grandmothers have told them how bad sex is for them, and that men don’t want women that enjoy sex, because they’re sluts.

    I don’t like the way the author is describing herself like a whore. Sexual desire is a normal thing. My wife and I read a great book together, And They Were Not Ashamed. One of the things it describes is the Good Girl Syndrome, which is the negative conditioning, teaching—or lack of teaching—that leads to negative thoughts and feelings about sex and the body, especially with girls. This can make women feel like sluts and whores because of wants and desires, something that is perfectly normal. I highly recommend reading it, but it may be best to wait until you’re married. It definately won’t take your mind of sex.

    Comment by jjohnsen — December 6, 2006 @ 8:52 am

26. As I posted in a much older blog - I had a “screaming” sex drive before marriage, also. It may not help, but having a high sex drive will probably be an asset once you do get married, as long as you don’t make it a focus for guilt.

    When you’re feeling the urges, keep in mind that “this, too, shall pass.” Besides exercise, I diverted my high-hormone moments by writing stories in my head or trying to analyze random things (like the nature of the universe, the motivations behind a snotty comment by a coworker/roommate/friend, or how I could improve the basic recipe for chocolate chip cookies.)

    Comment by UnicornMom — December 6, 2006 @ 8:56 am

27. I feel for ya, sister.

    I think the fact we’re a low-touch society makes this a hard situation too. Getting hugs and having physical contact with family members or friends, though that’s not sexual, seemed to help me.

    I agree the feeling guilty about normal wiring is placing an undue burden on a woman.

    Comment by Johnna Cornett — December 6, 2006 @ 9:44 am

28. You want advice? Here goes:

    Get your mind on other things than sex, and stop feeding your lust. It’s not helping you do anything you really want to do, and it’s just frustrating you with the notion that everybody else is getting something you’re not. Everybody isn’t getting it.

    When something gets you thinking about sex, move away from it, whatever it is, even if it makes you feel silly, and have something else to think about that’s worthwhile. Do this quickly, before your body has a chance to respond to the thought, because that makes it a lot harder to clear the thought from your mind. Even if this is your sister. I’m reminded of the line from Eric Snider’s “Since My Best Friend Got Engaged” that goes “We’re watching a movie that’s been rated G, but there’s an R rated moving going on right next to me.”

    Clearing your mind in a culture that’s as sex-obsessed as this one is difficult. Difficult != impossible. Do the difficult thing — it’s easier than the consequences of doing the easy thing.

    Comment by Blain — December 6, 2006 @ 10:28 am

29. what about the pill? I tried several before finding one that didn’t curb my appetite too much, but I guess you could use it for the side effect. Is it wrong to medicate sexuality? An interesting debate.

    Comment by cory — December 6, 2006 @ 11:04 am

30. The only answer to your question — how can I resist temptation when I don’t want to — is that you must have a living and active relationship with Jesus Christ. Only through the ministration of his Holy Spirit living in you can you have any hope of living the righteous life we are all called to live.

    Perhaps you should consider asking Jesus to live through you and work through you by the power of his indwelling Holy Spirit, and then seek out other like-minded Christians who you respect that can hold you accountable for your actions and thoughts.

    It is not easy. Jesus never said it would be easy. In fact, He said quite the opposite — “If they do these things to me, how much more shall they do to you!” Jesus is perfect man and God in one being — the only Son of God made flesh. We have an impossible task if we think we can be perfect on our own — it is purely by His grace and work that we can ever hope to live a holy and righteous life.

    Best regards,
    Kenneth+

    Comment by Kenneth — December 6, 2006 @ 1:05 pm

31. just ran across a random quote…I offer it by way of suggestion only, and wish you the best. And I should add that sexual frustration is WAY preferrable to the feelings you’d have if you gave in to those desires in an inappropriate way (which would include getting married legally for the purpose of having sex. You wouldn’t be fooling yourself or God if you did that!)

    “If you are single and haven’t identified a solid prospect for celestial marriage, live for it. Pray for it. Expect it in the timetable of the Lord. Do not compromise your standards in any way that would rule out that blessing on this or the other side of the veil.”
    Richard G. Scott

    Comment by anonagain — December 6, 2006 @ 1:08 pm

32. I realize that you are not sinning, but I thought of this passage when I read Kenneth’s comment and I think it can help. A dead man cannot be tempted either. Walk as the new man.

    What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

    Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

    Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

    Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.

    Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Rom 6:15 ¶ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    Comment by Lori — December 6, 2006 @ 1:12 pm

33. At some point you have to ask yourself why you arent getting asked out, then do something about it.

    Comment by David — December 6, 2006 @ 1:23 pm

34. #25 Bronwyn says
    

    The law of chastity makes sense for teens, but at some point single adults need to make adult choices about their sexuality. Lifelong celibacy is not normal or healthy, and not everyone marries.

    So are you saying that people who restrain themselves aren’t “normal”? That once you hit your thirties and beyond, you’ve earned the “right” to stop being chaste? You get an E-Ticket to sate your “needs” by labeling whatever course of action you take as “healthy and normal”? I don’t think that’s what you meant, but your comment betrays an attitude that far too much of our society today has adopted and incorporated as acceptable. It’s one of Satan’s greatest achievements.

    The fact is, the rewards of virtue FAR outweigh the costs…and whether you have a sexually fullfilling life or not, purity matters.
    Sex is not an entitlement. Plenty of married people don’t have rewarding sex lives; by the standards you expressed, that would give any frustrated adult license to have any unmet needs met “on the side”.

    I have a number of active, card-carrying LDS gay friends. They amazed me with their insights and attitude, which is that unless you live righteously, you won’t be happy. And sexual purity is part of that. One of them said, “I could have been born with any numbernever married. I could have had a handicap that would have rendered marriage virtually off-limits to me for my mortal existance. The fact is, sex is NOT an entitlement. And far more important is to take the long view about this life…that by enduring whatever trials we’re called upon in this life to bear, we will become more like Him…and enjoy blessings beyond imagination in the next life.” This from a man who has no hope of ever marrying (he wouldn’t put a woman through that situation) and having a family, but who lives the law of chastity, and enjoys the fruits of the spirit in a variety of ways in his life. He is remarkable and a blessing to myriad people, including me.

    Still, when you are really turned on, it’s hard to keep that perspective. I feel for our original poster…I think in many ways we all can. The best course is to be true to what you feel is right, and follow the spirit on that one so that we don’t fall into the trap of rationalization and justification of behaviors that will only distance us from God and make us lose perspective till it no longer seems wrong.

    Comment by blue — December 6, 2006 @ 1:26 pm

35. oops…glitch. that paragraph should have read:

    One of them said, “I could have been born with any number of trials in my life. I could have been straight and never gotten married. I could have had a handicap that would have rendered marriage virtually off-limits to me for my mortal existance. The fact is, sex is NOT an entitlement. And far more important is to take the long view about this life…that by enduring whatever trials we’re called upon in this life to bear, we will become more like Him…and enjoy blessings beyond imagination in the next life.”

    This from a man who has no hope of ever marrying (he wouldn’t put a woman through that situation) and having a family, but who lives the law of chastity, and enjoys the fruits of the spirit in a variety of ways in his life. He is remarkable and a blessing to myriad people, including me.

    Comment by blue — December 6, 2006 @ 1:31 pm

36. “At some point you have to ask yourself why you arent getting asked out, then do something about it. ”

    Sometimes thre really is no reason, though. It’s NOT my fault, for example, that I get asked out only once a year. Or perhaps it’s only my fault in that I have to have a job in a particular city that doesn’t have that many LDS guys who actually ask ANY girl out. At BYU, I got asked out 4 times in 4 years. I was active in plenty of activities, I am smart and capable and pretty, and even though I may be slightly overweight it’s not like I’m obese–and goodness, nobody’s perfect and girls shouldn’t be expected to be any more than guys.

    It really, really bugs me when people tell me things like that, because don’t you think I’ve been beating myself up about that kind of thing for the 16 years I’ve been old enough to date? Don’t you think I’ve asked my friends whenever I’m feeling low, “What’s wrong with me? Why don’t I get asked out? When I get asked out, why do guys treat me so badly?”

    And I think pretty much every girl in my situation feels the same way. Eventually, our ranks thin because once in a while a truly good guy comes along who knows how to treat a friend right, but in my experience those kinds of guys have been long gone by the time you hit your 30s–or they’re hiding somewhere, afraid of even asking someone out anymore.

    The truth is that I–and most girls I know like me–have done everything in my power to improve myself, from getting rid of prior baggage, to constantly trying to be pretty enough that a guy will take notice, to developing every talent I’ve ever had interest in and some I didn’t, in hopes that I’d have something in common with the right guy.

    And in the midst of all that, I found that I was just living my life, and a good one at that, and that any guy who would reject me is the one missing out. Or perhaps my unique personality and talents match with such a small percentage of the population and the right guy is so rare and wonderful that he just hasn’t made his way into my geography yet.

    So basically, that’s a longwinded answer to say that reinforcing the idea of David’s question is usually useless, and more likely to cause feelings of worthlessness than have any sort of constructive benefit. You might as well ask, what’s wrong with the guys, that they’re not asking her out? and expect a rational answer.

    Even better, admit that NOBODY knows the answer to either of those questions, and perhaps it’s just simply not the right timing.

    Comment by stacer — December 6, 2006 @ 2:47 pm

37. One of my closest girlfriends was recently married at age 32. She was going crazy like you even before she met her husband. I married at age 28–young by worldly standards but old for a virgin. Crazy hormones for me, as well.

    I am with Lynda–maybe she and I are not getting the mind blowing sex of some of the other responders but I have to say that intercourse really isn’t that big of a deal. I was surprised. My husband and I have only been with each other so we have nothing to compare it to but I don’t think the physical part of sex is the most powerful–it is the connection. At least it is for me.

    So, you might be dissapointed if you had random sex or sex with a quickie husband because it’s the intimacy of connecting that makes sex amazing. Although, I HAVE been watching Sex and the City–to see what the cultural significance is, of course–and if sex is always like they describe it, I must be doing something wrong!

    Comment by AngelaM — December 6, 2006 @ 3:47 pm

38. “I have to have a job in a particular city that doesn’t have that many LDS guys who actually ask ANY girl out.”

    That is a reason right there. I didnt say there was anything at all wrong with anyone. But there is usually something you can do to improve your dating situation. I myself quit my job and moved to find more women worth dating.

    If you job is the most important thing to you, thats great. If marriage is, then sometimes some things need to be sacraficed for a while.

    Comment by David — December 6, 2006 @ 4:14 pm

39. So David, how has the
    

    quit my job and moved to find more women worth dating.

    worked for you?

    Comment by jessawhy — December 6, 2006 @ 4:16 pm

40. Lived there for 3 years, met my wife and got married. Then moved somewhere else with her. It worked great for me.

    That being said, I made up my mind - at the age of 32 - that marriage was my number 1 priority, and that I would do whatever it took to achieve it. Until that point, I wasnt ready to sacrafice any other aspect of my lifestyle, and it held me back.

    If its not your first priority, then its easy to let it slip away.

    Comment by David — December 6, 2006 @ 4:24 pm

41. Cory mentioned that maybe you could medicate it away? As a joke, I think, but it made me remember: Prozac KILLED my sex drive, and I’ve read it’s a very common side effect. The effect wore off about six weeks after I stopped.

    Better living through chemistry. Reality is for people who can’t handle drugs.

    Just a thought. I feel for you sister.

    Comment by Ann — December 6, 2006 @ 5:02 pm

42. not a joke. maybe lighthearted, but I’d consider it.

    Comment by cory — December 6, 2006 @ 5:05 pm

43. Not everyone is alike. Some people cannot deal with decades of celibacy. Even God Himself is married.

    Comment by Bronwyn — December 6, 2006 @ 5:46 pm

44. please, please, please! don’t feel like you are a whore. It’s such a dirty word, too, and you are NOT dirty. you’re a strong person (in my mind, you’re stronger than those who haven’t been as tempted and restrained themselves like you) - the stronger the temptation, the stronger the person who resists it. You should feel proud of standing up to your phisycal self and saying “my moral self is stronger!”

    sometimes I’m just as frustrated. I’m also frustrated for my boyfriend: on one hand, he’s a devout mormon (I’m not) taught to be chaste and pure, and on the other, he’s a normal guy in modern america, bombarded with images of ‘real’ men only thinking about sex and making sure they have it. I can tell he’s having a hard time finding his place between both of these cultures he belongs to, and it makes me feel not so ‘up to standard’ when I think that hey, if I wanted to, I could go and procreate with the entire city and my (non-existant) church would think nothing of it! By which I mean that sometimes I too, feel like I have too much sexual liberty (and the desire to use it) for a woman.

    Sometimes when we feel like stepping over the line, we talk about why we’re abstaining, or what chastity means to us, or sometimes something absolutely unrelated. It gets sex into the more theoretical, and really, humor just breaks up the entire atmosphere.

    one last thing before I completely monopolize the comments - I feel your dating dillema. There’s nothing wrong with you - I bet you just haven’t met the person who’s right for you. Or maybe he already found you, but is just afraid to ask. If you’re really involved and confident (or appear confident), that may scare him a little. I’ve been friends with my bf for two years before we started dating (and no, he was over 16 when we met), and his question came completely out of the blue.

    best of luck. you’re in my thoughts.

    Comment by medusa — December 6, 2006 @ 6:38 pm

45. “That is a reason right there. I didnt say there was anything at all wrong with anyone. But there is usually something you can do to improve your dating situation. I myself quit my job and moved to find more women worth dating. ”

    I’m sure it’s nice to have the money to do that sort of thing. Us working slobs, we have to make ends meet, pay off the student loans, and y’know, follow where the Spirit tells us to go. Usually, for me, that means living in places where I don’t date. I don’t think it’s the place. In the last 10 years, I’ve lived in Utah, Chicago, Boston, and now Seattle, and it’s the same all over. There are always more girls than guys. There are always going to be girls more interesting or empty-headed than me. There might be one guy in a million, sometime.

    But it’s not the reason I don’t date.

    Comment by stacer — December 6, 2006 @ 6:45 pm

46. Um, God being married for eternity is a little different than “decades of celibacy.” And I don’t think God would be married because he couldn’t deal with celibacy. And the point is that God is married.

    I just thought I would echo what most people have been saying.
    1) It doesn’t take a skilled dater to get married (my dh was my first boyfriend and my first kiss since I was 16– yep, I got more action before I was “legal” to date than I did after, but that’s life, right?) So, don’t worry that you haven’t even kissed anyone. It only takes one. wasn’t that sappy?
    2) Temptation is not a sin. Even when you are as close to God as is humanly possible, you still face temptation. I had a serious sex drive before I got married that made me wonder how i would ever make it. And even though I got married young, there were times I wanted to scream because I wanted it so bad. So, you’re not alone.
    3) Whether sex is good or not once your married won’t change how you feel now. Like what others have been saying, focus less on how tempted you are– how you “shouldn’t do it.” And realize your sex drive is not only normal, but a blessing! Not so many women are blessed with incredible sex drives. (I know, that does not make it easier now. Just take a deep breath and like er… someone else said– stop calling yourself a whore! That might end up making you feel guilty once you finally can have sex, and believe me, that is not fun. realize that it is a great thing to have and then you will probably have an easier time being uninhibited when you can have sex and that will make it great. (I think that’s one reason why so many women don’t like it– just my opinion though.)
    4) Exercize sounds like a good idea.
    5) I don’t think you need to move in order to find a husband– obviously unless it feels right to you. But all will work out in time. But, yet again, that doesn’t make it any easier now.

    Comment by cmac — December 6, 2006 @ 6:47 pm

47. Hello again all. Per the request of many of you, I have dropped the “Whore” from off the end of my name.

    I do appreciate–very much so–your words of support. I especially appreciate those who have pointed out that a sex drive is a blessing, even if it feels like a curse right now.

    I’m glad most of you picked up on/responded to the whole “I feel like crap because I hardly date” undertone. I do ask myself what I can do to make myself more dateable, and I’d like to think that I’m doing all I can. I do hate to play the blame game, but I’ve gotta say–as Stacer and others have pointed out–there’s only so much I personally can do. We YSA were the subjects of a rather passionate talk given by Dallin H. Oaks last year in which he said rather bluntly that people needed to grow up and start dating. I’m sure many of y’all have heard of it. (Around here it’s known as The Smackdown.) Last month I went to a variety show put on by the area singles wards at which two women performed a song they had written about how The Smackdown has affected our dating scene. It was a funny song even though it was all too true. Basically, they got up there and sang about how women got excited after hearing The Smackdown because they thought it meant they’d actually be asked on dates, but nothing has changed.

    Before anyone states the obvious of “well, ladies can ask for dates, too!” I have. More than once. With several different guys. It still doesn’t get me very far. Last year after The Smackdown I asked a (then) friend to be my date for a family wedding. He not only said no, but he felt the need to say it twice: once on the phone, and again in person (as he was leaving my apartment and had his hand on the door handle). Can you see why I’m so frustrated?!

    Anyways, I’ve got to log off and get back to work. Thanks again for your comments. Please keep ‘em coming!

    Comment by I Feel Like... — December 6, 2006 @ 7:05 pm

48. Hey not a ho–this doesn’t help now but believe me, when (and I hate it when people would say I would find someone someday because who are THEY to tell me my future? Did I pay them to read MY tea leaves?) you DO get married, all this crappy dating crap will make you even more thankful to be married. Take the crap in stride…some day you will look back and see how amazingly strong, resilient and good natured you are. Start writing your best selling collection of personal essays now!

    Oh, and just between you, me and the other gals who got married “later”, I think we who suffered in the dating pool much longer got the really GOOD guys. But don’t tell the ones who married young…we don’t want to start a debate

    Comment by AngelaM — December 6, 2006 @ 7:39 pm

49. This might not help right now, but I went from hardly dating to muengaged and barely knew what hit me. When things DO start to happen, they can happen quickly, and you’re left wondering why you were so worried about it, before. I wouldn’t worry so much about how often you’re dating - but worry more about who you’re dating, when you date.

    Comment by UnicornMom — December 6, 2006 @ 8:47 pm

50. I swear, dating is a crapshoot. I was no where NEAR as pretty or cool as several of my BYU roomies, and I had several dates a week. Maybe the really pretty girls were too intimidating? Plain Jane me = safe? At any rate, I certainly don’t think a lack of dates means you are undesirable. Not at all. Maybe you’re just so amazing the boys are a little scared of you, who knows.

    I’m all for fostering close friendships with men. Of course, if there aren’t a lot of men around to become friends with, things get more difficult. But like Unicorn Mom implies, it only takes one great guy. I hope your paths cross soon. A sex drive may be a huge blessing, but it sure seems like a curse when you’re single! I remember.

    Comment by Janet — December 6, 2006 @ 9:20 pm

51. Being single sucks. I say we adopt the arranged marriage thing so we can all be married at age 18. At least we’d be having sex early.

    Hang in there, take lots of cold showers, exercise, and if you really feel like you need extra help, and you are OK with it, get BC pills. In one of the great ironies of life, they totally kill the sex drive.

    On a side note, it’s nice to know how the pill affects you before you get married. Some women get migraine headaches, some gain weight, some get super irritable, some have it fix their PMS, some women they do nothing, some have it straighten them out, emotionally. And many women go on the pill right before they get married, and it freaks them out, and they don’t know what hit them, and their husband is like “who are you?” and they blame the marriage for the shift in personality instead of the chemicals. So tell your doc you’re having really bad cramps if she won’t prescribe them. That way, when you get married, you’ll know if they’re a viable option for your birth control.

    Comment by The Wiz — December 6, 2006 @ 11:09 pm

52. “I’m sure it’s nice to have the money to do that sort of thing”

    I wouldnt know. I barely had any money then, and I have even less now. I didnt say you should move, I just said that is can be an option.

    Let me just state the obvious that no one seems to want to say:

    There are more decent, inteligent, active, spiritual single women in the church than there are men.

    I dont know how it all balances out in the end, but right now, thats just the way it is

    Comment by David — December 6, 2006 @ 11:31 pm

53. plus with the pill you can just keep taking them to avoid having a period.

    Comment by cory — December 7, 2006 @ 12:09 am

54. Pill did it for me, only now I refuse to be on the pill so that I can enjoy having a sex drive. it’s worth a try.

    Comment by hi — December 7, 2006 @ 1:19 am

55. Be careful if you plan on taking the pill - as Wiz mentioned, there can be some awful side effects, including inability to get pregnant afterwards. Medication should be a last resort, IMO.

    And you CERTAINLY shouldn’t take it differently than the recommended dosage. Taking it constantly, merely to avoid having a period, is not only unnatural, it’s very dangerous.

    Comment by UnicornMom — December 7, 2006 @ 6:51 am

56. Be careful if you plan on taking the pill - as Wiz mentioned, there can be some awful side effects, including inability to get pregnant afterwards.

    Side effects, undoubtedly — it’s a drug, drugs have side effects [like a decrease in sex drive] BUT there is no scientific evidence that the pill causes infertility
    .
    From the link: OCs [the most thoroughly studied drug in history] also have no adverse effect on future fertility, do not defer menopause, nor do they hasten menopause’s onset. Most women ovulate within a couple of weeks of discontinuing OCs. Less than 3 percent of women have a delay in the return to fertility. OCs do not correct any underlying ovarian dysfunction, however, so women can expect to return to the menstrual pattern that existed prior to OC use.

    Women who have used OCs have a 40 percent reduction in the risk of developing endometrial and ovarian cancer, when compared to women who have never used OCs.

    Comment by not ophelia — December 7, 2006 @ 7:45 am

57. Thank you for correcting me on that for instance. Keep in mind, however, that the study that claim was based on looked at permanent infertility, not difficulty getting pregnant. There have been studies that have indicated there may be a delayed fertility when taking oral contraceptives. Source.

    However, none of that changes my point, which was that you should be VERY careful when looking at drug solutions for problems, as there can often be unlooked-for side effects. -No- drug is completely proven safe, and just because a study finds an insignificant number of women are adversely affected, doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t be one of the few. It’s all Russian Rouette, just with varying stakes.

    I was suggesting that she look on medication as a last resort - not a be-all-end-all answer.

    Comment by UnicornMom — December 7, 2006 @ 8:38 am

58. What an interesting and revealing post. Once upon a time (when I was young) men had these urgent sex drives. Now my observation is that it is shifting to women and young men don’t seem to have a sex drive. There is a singles ward in my building full of really attractive (that’s about all I know about them) women. I am told that many have advanced degrees and professions but they have a hard time getting a date. The men all look like clueless little twits cloned out of a Friends episode.

    Very sad “I Feel Like” but hang in there. Generations of men have managed to keep their chastity until the marriage bed. You can do it.

    Comment by Al_Miller — December 7, 2006 @ 8:39 am

59. Re: 36–does the man who was quoted have a blog? Failing that, does anyone know of any blogs by active, believing, LDS SSA folks? I know some people who could probably use the role modeling. (Sorry for the threadjack.)

    Comment by janescott — December 7, 2006 @ 11:42 am

60. Whatever you do, don’t take birth control pills to kill it! It could kill it permanently!

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=35663

    http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/HRT/tb/2423

    Comment by mami — December 7, 2006 @ 11:53 am

61. It seems like you already know this, but I don’t think it hurts to mention again, that God loves you, and loving you means loving everything about you. Also, I agree with some of the previous commentors, PLEASE DON’T SETTLE!! The emotional consequenses - good and bad - are ones you want to enjoy or work out with a beloved and trusted spouse, not with someone you don’t know will be around in the near or distant future. If your goal has always been to wait until you are married to have sex - stick to it.

    I think you are great for realizing you have a temptation and desire to curb what it might lead to. I think you are stronger than you think. Ask Heavenly Father to verify this to you.

    Comment by Nutty — December 7, 2006 @ 11:59 am

62. I hate threadjacking, but I am not happy with the rap the pill is getting:

    “avoid(ing) having a period, is not only unnatural, it’s very dangerous.”

    Let me give you a different way to look at having no period. In the history of humans, fertile females had very few periods. They married young, and were either pregnant or lactating most of their reproductive lives. Both times suppress ovulation (although lactation is not a good form of birth control, many failures). So having few periods is historically quite natural.

    The studies on the effects of the pill that were mentioned do have some limitations. They were retrospective, they did not show what the SBG was in the pill taking women before they started on the pill, and they gave no evidence that the higher SBG actually causes the problems they stated. Testosterone supplementation has been used to treat women’s decreased libido with poor success.

    Comment by cb — December 7, 2006 @ 1:11 pm

63. Absent from this conversation is the idea that sexuality is a gift. Not everyone marries young, and not everyone marries, period. Find ways to be sexual, with or without a partner, toys, etc. Embrace being a sexual creature. Cherish and nurture that gift.

    Comment by Bronwyn — December 7, 2006 @ 1:34 pm

64. Thank you CB. I haven’t read anything to support that fewer periods on birth control is dangerous. I’ve read the opposite.

    Comment by cory — December 7, 2006 @ 2:32 pm

65. I can’t help thinking that the writer’s past history with masturbation may have somehow contributed to the current problem. I know the pamphlet they give young men about that issue discusses that masturbation makes the desires for sex even more problematic. (If you haven’t read it, you should, it creates the metaphor that the penis is a “little factory.” It’s quite hysterical)
    This may be an unpopular comment. I hope it doesn’t sound judgemental, but I wonder if there is a link between the past behavior and the current sexual frustration.

    Comment by Jessawhy — December 7, 2006 @ 3:21 pm

66. I feel like,

    I’m sorry you’re going through that. I don’t want to be-little what you’re going through, but I do want to say that I know what you mean, and I think most women know what you mean. For sure, lots of men know what you mean, too.

    I don’t know– I think the thing that helped me the most thru those trying times (I was married young, and then divorced, and got married again a few years later, and so I had to go thru withdrawal like it sounds like you did at one point) was to engage my mind in something I really enjoyed.

    Like, go see a movie. Read a book that I really like. Buy a new book! (from the used bookstore, if you can’t afford it. Or go to the library).

    Or if you’re a crafty person, do crafts… It won’t always work, but a lot of the time, if your mind is engaged in something you really enjoy, you’ll find you forget for a while. Hugs. (Oh, and that was another good suggestion– make sure that you get other sorts of appropriate physical intimacy from those around you– friends, family. Guy freinds, too.)

    About the pill– If I were to go on the pill, I’d get blood clots. And I’ve had lots of friends with problems related to the pill– on friend developed hypothyrodism, another endometriosis, and several others really struggled to get pregnant for a while. A few had mood swings. One friend had terrible cramps.

    It’s probably different for every woman, but the fact that these things happen to some women renders the pill an option to be considered very carefully, probably prayerfully. It’s not a decision to be treated lightly. So many women just go on it as a matter of course when they get married, or want to go on acutaine, etc. That’s kinda silly. It’s obvious that messing with one’s hormones will cause significant changes. Sometimes these changes are desireable, sometimes they aren’t. (as in the case of reducing sex drive).

    Comment by Sare — December 7, 2006 @ 3:32 pm

67. Quote from #67

    It’s probably different for every woman, but the fact that these things happen to some women renders the pill an option to be considered very carefully, probably prayerfully. . . . It’s obvious that messing with one’s hormones will cause significant changes.

    Thank you. -That- was my point.

    It is rather like the glass-of-wine-per-day debate. You can debate the pros and cons about the pill endlessly, but neither argument supersedes the fact that there COULD be adverse side effects and so one SHOULD exercise caution, and not dive into the Drug Solution willy-nilly. (I love that I could use that word in a sentence.) Prescription drug abuse is a very real problem. The ability to obtain a prescription doesn’t mean you should use that prescription, especially in cases where the desired effect is not the drug’s original, intended purpose.

    I stand by my caution that she should try all other means at her disposal before considering an attempt to drug her problem away.

    Comment by UnicornMom — December 7, 2006 @ 5:43 pm

68. (threadjack warning–but I AM trying to help our poster in a round-a-bout way!)

    Bronwyn’s comment reminds me of a conversation I had a few years ago when I was in the RS presidency. We *really* wanted to have an Enrichment meeting devoted to embracing the gift of sexuality, and we didn’t want to make it a “married woman’s only” thing (because how patronizing and exclusionary is THAT? Plus our pres. was single.) We pondered all sorts of philosophical material on how recognizing your sexuality brings you closer to heaven, but we never constructed a tenable approach for how singles could ACT upon the recognized sexuality in a way consistent with our theology. Since all of us believed in chastity before marriage, we gave up without solving the quandry.

    I’m still convinced that the paradox Bronwyn–and we–created was a false one. Is it really “be married or deny the sexuality God blessed you with?” There must be ways of allowing your identity as a sexual being to augment spirituality without breaking commandments, even if you’re unmarried. I’m just totally at a loss for what those ways would be–and maybe I’m completely off base anyhow. Anyone have any ideas beyond embracing the defenestration of prophetic counsel?

    Comment by Janet — December 7, 2006 @ 6:19 pm

69. Janet-
    I love this threadjack and feel it is absolutely on topic and very helpful for the poster.
    I happen to feel that sexuality is very linked to creativity. Sometimes when working on a particular project or reading something really enlightening, I will feel a sort of electric energy that is not unlike being turned on. The sexual act is a very deep creative process, not only for the obvious procreation but for the exploratory pleasure of creating a moment with your partner. Anyway it sounds hokey, but developing your creativity and connecting the creative part of your mind with how it makes your body feel- to me is experiencing human sexuality.

    Comment by cory — December 7, 2006 @ 8:16 pm

70. Two words: pee orgasm. No dirty thoughts or touching required, just a full bladder and muscle control.

    Comment by Anon today — December 7, 2006 @ 11:30 pm

71. there is something decidedly wrong with insisting that food, exercise, writing, or pills can be viable substitutes or placeholders for sex. They are NOT, and can only lead to repression and dysfunction. Figure out how to have a sex life as a single. Allow yourself to fantasize, explore and enjoy your body. Demystify sex. Remove it from its pedestal, however you can. Learn to see it as something you already have access to and not just something some random, unknown man will give you someday.

    Comment by Bronwyn — December 7, 2006 @ 11:47 pm

72. The problem, Bronwyn, is that the woman that posted this already said this is not a viable option for her. I do not think one needs “fantasize, explore, and enjoy [her] body” as a way to handle being single. Removing it from its pedestal makes it mundane and common, when it is meant to be special and reserved. I do not think exercize or other creative activity lead to dysfunction– saying that sex is something “some random, unknown man will give [her] some day,” is not only sexist (since when does a man give sex to a woman?), but also discounts the purpose of intimacy. This woman is obviously capable of finding a man (no matter when that time will be) who will share a sexual relationship that is not random, they are not unknown to each other, and has every potential and right to be meaningful. Not something “demystified” or made to be common or mundane or even individual.

    Comment by cmac — December 8, 2006 @ 12:51 am

73. I am with Janet on creativity and sexual energy. I think of very expressive dance–not raunchy dancing–just very moving. And music that touches your sould. Sex is expressive, not just a fun thing to play with. Sex isn’t just a crotch thing and I think that channeling that energy into other meaningful expressions will help our friend enjoy her sexuality in a way that fits in with her views of chastity.

    Comment by AngelaM — December 8, 2006 @ 1:42 am

74. I tend to agree with Bronwyn, but then I would. I just feel like we already covered this elsewhere.

    However I did want to address Jessawhy’s question up the queue a bit. (66) I think you have the logic backwards. People who don’t have a strong sex drive don’t tend masturbate much (if at all). She has a strong sex drive, therefore she masturbated. Not the otherway around. She still has a strong sex drive. (Masturbation did not change her physiology, nor does it cause blindness hairy palms nor turn people into crazy sex fiends. If it did, almost everyone would be a crazy hairy blind sex fiend.)

    And while I’m on the subject, which I told everyone else not to be on, (hypocrisy thy name is Lisa). In the name of science I think our poster should perform this experiment. Continue on her present course for another month not changing her habits at all. Start a record keeping system of some sort, rating her level of sex obsessed frustration daily (maybe rating it from 1-10, four times a day, at breakfast, lunch, dinner, and bedtime). Then the next month, she could allow herself to masturbate however much she feels like. Continuing with the same recording system. Maybe for two months because It’ll take a while for honeymoon to wear off. Then she can stop the masturbating and begin an excercise program (and take up knitting?), continuing with the recording system. Then she can come back here in five or so months, with charts, and well see who’s (if anyone’s) solution makes her less sex obsessed. And she is of course forbidden (for the sake of science) from dating during this time period.

    Okay, no I am offically done giving out my zany apostate advice.

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 8, 2006 @ 1:57 am

75. Ah, but sex IS a “crotch thing”. Otherwise, it would just be called “creative dancing”, no?

    Why is it so problematic to suggest or admit that singles should have a sex life, too, as Bronwyn suggests?As squeamish as the Opening Poster might feel, it’s biologicially and emotionally necessary. A rich sexual life can do wonders, and I agree that eating, not eating, taking pills, dancing, running, or pursuing other creative outlets doesn’t help. One should not mask, stuff, or deny one’s sexuality. It only leads to further problems down the road.

    I know many “righteous” single sisters who are getting up in years (40s, 50s, 60s, never married) who have frightengly unrealistic habits, worldviews, and attitudes because of their fear of being sexual/too sexual”immoral.” Some examples:

    1. Old roommate (let’s call her Cindy) at 41 had not been on a date since BYU (she graduated at 26) and explained that since we lived “in the mission field” she couldn’t chance going out with non-LDS men because “they had one thing on their mind” and she “couldn’t forgive herself” if “something happened.”

    2. Friend (let’s call her Julie) also in her 40s will not allow herself to see any movie except those with a G rating, because it “might contain something objectionable”. She doesn’t own a TV, has never seen a man’s bare chest, let alone anything else, has never been kissed, rarely dates, and claims this is all to “keep herself pure.” She is also very fit, is ABD even though as a younger woman she had few ambitions as a scholar, and is very service-oriented. But all of this does not keep her warm at night and doesn’t keep her emotionally or sexually healthy. There is truly a resemblance between these women and the one who posted as “Never Been Kissed…Whore”. I’ts more than sad-It’s tragic!

    Finally, there are some understanding bishops who no longer punish (especially singles) for sexual infractionstions, especially a first or second time. We are not meant to be robots, and it would be a cruel and sadistic God who would say that as long as someone marries you, you finally get to have sex, no matter who you marry, how you marry, etc.

    Comment by AFN — December 8, 2006 @ 2:20 am

76. I am pondering more on Jessawhy’s comment (#66). What are the future effects going to be if the poster does begin to masturbate again, especially if she is now oppossed to it. She will be able to fulfill herself now, but will she always feel left short because she didn’t ‘go all the way’? Will she always feel guilty? Then when she does find someone to share sexual experience with, will she be disappointed? I know coming to terms with personal sexuality would hopefully include overcoming any guilt that may be in the wake of such exploration, but given the current misgivings of the poster, the emotional rollercoaster may not be worth it.

    Perhaps your desire needs to be revisited. Do you only want sexual fulfillment? If so, then I think you have your answer in the comments above. Do you want fulfillment in a meaningful relationship with a partner? If so, then I also think you have your answer. This may be a black and white suggestion, but maybe it’s just a place to start. After starting with this, you can introduce the grayish possibilities that you would feel comfortable with.

    Comment by Nutty — December 8, 2006 @ 10:34 am

77. I was going to make several comments, but it would take forever, and I dont think I could make them fully understandable. It is fascinating reading this post along with the bases post currently going on. One says women are being victimized by guys trying to get off, and this post tells women to go and get off whenever they “really need it”. I am also somewhat amazed that so many women think masturbation is no big deal. If you dont want to go to the temple I suppose its not a big deal.

    I will close with one question that perhaps some of you can answer for me. If simply masturbating is no big deal, then why shouldnt our original poster just let a guy please her that same way? Do you see those two actions as being drastically different?

    Comment by David — December 8, 2006 @ 11:23 am

78. I think it is really sad to call sex a crotch thing. When I posted that creativity is a part of sexuality, I didn’t mean that you just dance and all of a sudden you feel sexually fulfilled (although try doing 30 sautees in a ballet class and you will have an orgasm). I was trying to point out that sex is a full part of the human experience and isn’t just clitoral stimulation. You aren’t going to be fulfilled sexually if you just write or exercise or dance, but if you can feel how your body feels when you do these things and can see yourself as a procreative, sensual being and not be afraid if some of these things “turn you on” or give you sexual feelings- then you are embracing your sexuality.
    If you only see sex as a crotch thing and you want to follow the counsel of the prophet then that is was leads to sexual dysfunction since anything that stimulates that area will be “bad” unless brought on my a married relationship.
    Really anyone who sees sex as only a crotch thing has a really deprived sex life. Sex is a mouth thing, a mind thing, a muscle thing, a hand thing, an imagination thing. etc. It is full body and full being.

    Comment by cory — December 8, 2006 @ 12:34 pm

79. the bases post is not about guys trying to get off and most people on this post aren’t saying to get off anytime you really need it. Don’t post anything unless you really understand what is being discussed.

    Comment by cory — December 8, 2006 @ 12:37 pm

80. David, a few months ago (there is a search button on the sidebar) we had an in depth discussion that should answer all your Masturbation questions. If you read it and have additional questions you’re welcome to ask again, though I never know if I’m going to have time to answer.

    Cory,
    I totally agree with you that sex is not a crotch thing. One small part of sex, sexual intercourse, is a crotch thing, but there’s a lot more to sex than that (though Bill Clinton might disagree).

    That said, I wonder if it would clarify things to seperate the concepts of sensuality and sexuality a bit more. Creative endevors, like say dancing, can be very sensual, very physically pleasurable, with out really being sexual.

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 8, 2006 @ 1:18 pm

81. I understand and can accept that distinction. But what I’m trying to say, and probably not very well, is the idea that the sexual urge is ultimately and fundamentally a creative urge. To procreate. So my point is really that other creative endeavors can be another way to experience the eternal principle of creation, just like sex. But this is something I’ve had an idea of for a long time but I’ve never tried to articulate it before and I’m finding it very difficult.

    Comment by cory — December 8, 2006 @ 1:40 pm

82. I like it . . . and I totally get the difficult to articulate thing. I’m having a totally brain freeze day myself.

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 8, 2006 @ 1:50 pm

83. I have to comment on this one. I never made out with a girl till i was 36. I’m a return missionary and lost plenty of temple recomends due to masturbation. Even though I “failed” often at the masturbation dilema, I suceeded enough to permanently damage my prostate. Come to find out if i had masturbated at least twice a week in my 20’s I would not be in this situation now.
    Having said that now that i’m married i can confirm for you that having sex outside of a marriage will cause you alot of problems. The only thing worse would be for you to marry the wrong guy just to end your pain.
    So first masturbate. Don’t ruin your 20’s like i did.

    Second your holding back to much like i did. Guys see you as non interested in sex. Nothing scares us men more than being married to a woman for eternity who never or rarely wants to have sex.

    Third don’t worry about losing control with a guy. I was so horny that i thought just being kissed, would make me lose my ability to resist going all the way. So i was very stand offish. So the women i dated thought i had no passion. And promptly and correctly dumped me. Unlike when you are alone, when your with another your brain thinks about things like. “am i kissing right?”, “does he really like me?”, “what if someone sees us?” due to your brain working like this. Your hormones remain in check enough that, trust me you will keep your free agency and will be able to stop him where you deem is appropriate.

    Lastly, i loss my virginity to my wife two hours after we were married in the salt lake temple. And it was worth the wait even though we were both 36.

    Keep your hormones in check, with the big M. And you will be able to think clearly enough to look for somone who will become your best friend cause even on your honeymoon it’s 95% talking and 5% sex. If you don’t like him outside of sexual attraction, dump him.

    I will pray for you. I’ve been there. and good luck

    Comment by TRON — December 8, 2006 @ 1:53 pm

84. Ok, I TOTALLY agree with the physiological reasons for masterbating -but I wanted to say, Tron, one of the leading factors for prostate problems is a high-fat diet.

    Comment by Lindsay — December 8, 2006 @ 2:30 pm

85. Sometimes it saddens me that a woman will feel like a whore simply for having sexual desire.

    You are in the PEAK of your fertility, these feelings are hormonally driven and completely normal.

    I wasn’t raised in the church, and well….I have a lot of sins in my past, a lot of promiscuity, ect. I still struggle with impure thoughts even though I am now married. I often beat myself up for it, but you know, my bishop has said that it’s not how perfect you are but weather you are trending in the right direction. I don’t do everything right, but I am *getting there* I had a blessing where I was told the Lord is pleased with me and the changed I have made. It made me feel better about my shortcomings.

    This will pass, eventually you will settle down and get married then you’ll have all the sex you want.

    Comment by Lindsay — December 8, 2006 @ 2:35 pm

86. Maybe I am going through a prudish phase–I generally question things I am “required” to do when it comes to church–but I am a little disturbed that so many of us are encouraging our friend to do something that will most likely lead to her inability to attend the temple. And she already feels guilty about masturbating so why do we think telling her it is okay will make that feeling go away? I am not trying to be snotty here, just concerned.

    Comment by AngelaM — December 8, 2006 @ 2:45 pm

87. Disturbed is too strong. I would say I am more uneasy with our advice than anything.

    Comment by AngelaM — December 8, 2006 @ 3:09 pm

88. Hey, all, I’ve just been reading this post… it definitely hit a spot, and I thought I’d just jump in with my own experiences. Having married young for all the wrong reasons, divorced after having gotten a clue, and being single for the past decade, I’ve faced a few of the same dilemmas. . .

    I really liked the creative energy comments as related to the sex drive, and in noticing the other responses (the exercizing and the other things) there’s a correlation with what I discovered during my own fight with being single and undatable (by choice, in my case, at least mostly). The whole chakra-energy thing, with so much energy based right at the base of the pelvis (okay, someone with a better understanding of eastern medicine will laugh, please correct me!) really helped me to realize that I could channel that energy in other ways. Blocking it sure as heck didn’t work; I’d get to “explode mode”. Channeling it did; not into exercize- I hate sweat, sigh, though I know it’s good for me- but into my own spiritual development (kudos to the gay friend whose statement was so very insightful but I don’t recall the post and don’t have time to look it up)… which led to going back to school, in my case, which reminds me I gotta go teach a bunch of undergrads…
    Thanks for a very interesting discussion!

    Comment by Meee — December 8, 2006 @ 3:42 pm

89. Well, I’ll go with disturbed if you won’t. Because yeah, it is hard and it gets harder. But it’s not impossible. I think the comments saying to go ahead and masturbate are ignoring the great blessing that being able to do as we’re asked, no matter how long and hard the road, can be. I haven’t heard one person in their 30s who is still single and also temple-worthy comment yet, so I’ll go out on a limb and comment myself.

    It’s HARD. It gets harder because the hormones actually get stronger as you approach 30. But it’s still possible.

    I agree with many who are talking about doing something creative or exercising, doing something physical to wear yourself out. And basically, don’t beat yourself up over thoughts. They’re thoughts, not actions. Thoughts, to a certain extent, are unavoidable and even, sure, healthy, but we still are expected to control them. However, I think the Lord is also really very forgiving of such thoughts, and he’ll help us to redirect them if we seek it.

    I’m certainly no prude. I am highly aware of the things my body desires, and I want those things in my life. And being single and LDS in your 30s, it’s really hard sometimes to even be touched, period–the last guy I dated was really touchy and snuggly and it was like the floodgates of relief opened up, because it had been *so long* since someone had wanted to touch me (in appropriate ways, of course). And it’s hard not to daydream about the day when it will be right to have more.

    As someone who has dealt with what you’re going through for about 10 years longer, I can say from experience that I understand completely. There are times when you’re just so frustrated because you want something MORE than what you have–it’s not just sex, it’s connection, it’s creativity, it’s deep emotional intimacy. It’s the ability to have a friend to talk to deep into the night about important things.

    Sex just represents so much more than itself. It’s not about simply fulfilling a physical need–it’s about the need to touch and be touched by another human being in a deep and meaningful way: physically, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually.

    Until the right opportunity comes along for marriage, you just have to find ways to split those things up. Find friends who you connect with spiritually–who might not be the friends who hug you; perhaps even if your family isn’t strong spiritually they’re the ones that hug you.

    Does that make sense? Of course once married, you’ll still need deep friendships and people to discuss intellectual things with, but the best friend of all will be your spouse, and it’s that void that I think she’s talking about missing.

    I think you just have to remember that as with all things, balance. You can find other ways of appropriate contact. If you have nieces or nephews, hug them often. Play with babies. Hug your siblings. Cuddle with a boy if you ever have the opportunity. Take those opportunities and cherish them as they come along, because they’re important.

    Also, if you’re far from home, turn your friends into a surrogate family. Hug them, walk down the street arm in arm, throw your arm around a friend for a picture.

    And concentrate on keeping your friendships connected. Make time for your friends. Throw yourself into service. Like others have said above, distract yourself with good things, creative things.

    It’s most definitely possible.

    Comment by stacer — December 8, 2006 @ 3:53 pm

90. If we’re going to be throwing “disturbed” around, would it be okay for me to say that I’m disturbed by the way Mormons handle sex as a whole and the Masterbations hysteria is an integral part of that. Just saying, Disturbed can go both ways in this war.

    But that said.

    Stacer, you make many many very good points. I know I shouldn’t probably speak on the subject seeing as I married so young. But I do remember those feelings of longing, and they are so much more comlicated than just wanting sex. Just wanting physical contact, a shoulder to cry on, someone who really knows you, someone who really cares. Sex is just one peice in the longing puzzel. And so many of those longings can find outlets in perfectly healthy (by anyone’s standards) ways.

    Fantastic comment.

    You know, I’ve actually thought of the perfect solution to kill anyone’s sex drive. Adopt three kids under the age of three. Make sure that they never sleep through the night, colic would be good too.

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 8, 2006 @ 5:39 pm

91. I know this opinion isn’t the popular one here, and I hesitate to share it because I find it difficult to articulate.

    Although there is some truth in what is being said - that you should not be ashamed for feeling sexual urges, I also think it’s a disservice to encourage you to masturbate to relieve sexual tension. A large part of the gospel is learning to overcome the “natural man” and to become a saint through the Gospel of Christ.

    The argument for releasing sexual urges through self-stimulation sounds very similar to the argument for homosexuals to indulge their urges. They, also, argue that it is natural and nothing of which to be ashamed, and that there is, therefore, nothing wrong with it. The fact remains that, natural or not, it is not in keeping with the counsel of the Gospel to indulge sexual urges outside of legal marriage. To cite a similar example, fasting is not a natural behavior, yet it is commanded of the Lord. To say that something is “natural” and therefore should be explored is not a logical or valid argument.

    On the other hand, resisting these urges before you are married is not going to keep you from the temple, nor will it potentially fill you with guilt or distance you from the Spirit. Indulging in masturbation MAY. If for no other reason - better to be safe than sorry.

    A few good talks that deal with the subject:
    A Self-inflicted Purging

    President Kimball
    For the Strengthening of Youth

    The first one, especially, is directed towards men in the Priesthood session. If he gives this advice to men, should it not also apply to us? The prophets and apostles have spoken on this subject in numerous times and numerous ways. For the Strength of Youth is also very clear, specifically when it states “Do not arouse those emotions in your own body.” I don’t think it can get much more direct than that.

    On a more constructive note, here are a few very good talks that may provide encouragement and support:

    Pollution of the Mind

    Keeping Covenants
    Presidency Message

    You may also want to request a blessing. You don’t have to give the reason to the priesthood holder if you’re not comfortable with it, but hearing from the Lord has often strengthened me through similar situations in the past.

    Comment by UnicornMom — December 8, 2006 @ 5:45 pm

92. there is nothing unethical about sex, and a benevolent god would not give humans a strong natural sex drive and then demand that they ignore it indefinitely–that would be torture. i know how much internet advice is worth, but it seems like reexamining your belief system would be the best way to deal with the problem at its root.

    Comment by vlad — December 8, 2006 @ 6:44 pm

93. Leave. Now. Your religion, like most others, is a tool for social conditioning and control. You feel guilty about natural urges because of this conditioning. Start thinking for yourself, and you’ll rapidly see exactly what religion has done to you and billions of others. (And feeling guilty about wanting to be kissed is hardly the worst of it.) Once you’ve stopped letting your religion control your thoughts, you’ll start to feel like a normal human being.

    This may seem harsh, but god, as presented by every religion I’ve studied, is an illusion. Ask yourself why a being with the power to create the universe won’t communicate with its loyal followers. No, the voice in your head you’ve been conditioned to hear doesn’t count; that’s your own mind inventing answers to your questions.

    It’s really like a dream; pinch yourself, and you’ll wake up. Ask god where he is, and you’ll get no answer. Again, what you need to do is free your mind. Then you can shed the irrational guilt for good.

    Comment by Josh — December 8, 2006 @ 7:00 pm

94. I forgot to mention this:

    How do you feel about a god whose best argument in favor of moral behavior is “do it or I’ll torture you forever”? Hell, it’s not even that. It’s “do what I say or I’ll torture you forever.” Morality doesn’t even come into it; control is the real goal.

    Comment by Josh — December 8, 2006 @ 7:02 pm

95. Josh, Mormons don’t have a conception of hell that at all resembles what you’ve described.

    Comment by RCH — December 8, 2006 @ 7:09 pm

96. Social conditioning is an inevitable fact of life, and religion is not the only source. The ever popular “think for yourself” mantra, IMHO, is an idealistic attempt to deny the all-encompassing nature of social conditioning through the (inaccurate) blaming of a scapegoat. In other words, it is difficult to conclude if anyone ever has the complete freedom to choose anything since humankind is constantly assaulted with agents of conditioning, whether religious or no. The only way I could completely rid myself of social conditioning/influence/call it what you will would be to turn back the clock somehow, stick myself back in the womb, and refuse to come out. Obviously, that’s not an option.

    I wholeheartedly choose my religion and any and all baggage, hangups, heartaches, and/or difficulties that may or may not come with it.

    I am of course aware of the aforementioned phenomenon of projection. (I do have a degree in Sociology.) That is not the issue at hand, though. This post was written to convey my frustration with myself and not with my religious culture as a whole.

    Comment by I Feel Like... — December 8, 2006 @ 7:48 pm

97. My guess is we’ve just been linked to by an anti-mormon site, or at least one full of intolerant trolls.

    Please, don’t feed the troll(s).

    Comment by fMhLisa — December 8, 2006 @ 7:56 pm

98. Mormons don’t have a concept of hell like that? Well this one certainly does! From the original post:

    “And it’s better to marry than to burn.”

    “The only way I could completely rid myself of social conditioning/influence/call it what you will would be to turn back the clock somehow, stick myself back in the womb, and refuse to come out. Obviously, that’s not an option.”

    Obviously not, but I think you’ve constructed a straw-man there. I only advocate resisting negative conditioning, like the kind that’s made you so miserable. Would you feel the way you do if you hadn’t been fed a steady diet of your religion’s guild-inducing idea of morality for your whole life?

    “My guess is we’ve just been linked to by an anti-mormon site, or at least one full of intolerant trolls.”

    Bzzt. Wrong answer. You’ve been linked from reddit, and, personally, I don’t really care what your religious affiliation is. After studying them for a while, they all start to look the same. The religious persecution complex is getting a bit old, though. You should really consider accepting constructive criticism, rather than playing the victim.

    Comment by Josh — December 8, 2006 @ 8:52 pm

99. Preach it sister!! “I Feel Like. . .” you are a strong woman, I think you will be fine.

    Comment by Nutty — December 8, 2006 @ 8:53 pm

100. Have you noticed there are no interesting people in heaven?—Just a hint to the girls as to where they can find their salvation.

     Comment by Nietzsche — December 8, 2006 @ 8:57 pm

101. Lisa, I adore actual dialogic, but the new folks filtering in from reddit or whatever seem to lack actual analytical reasoning skills (well, most of them) in favor of reductive vitriol and patronization. Usually I don’t condone censorship, but this has gotten out of hand. Disagreement is fun and good, but insulting constructions of false dichotomies? Bleagh.

     I will say the Nietzche comment about no interesting people inhabiting heaven made me laugh hysterically, though. That fellow has some wit.

     Comment by Janet — December 8, 2006 @ 11:16 pm

102. Not being a mormon, you may not want to take advice from me. I have a degree in neuroscience and I think that you need to consider the possible consequences of anxiety or depression that you are exposing yourself to. Being that frustrated during long periods of time can cause long term or permanent changes to your mind. I understand that you value your virtues and I respect that. Whether or not you choose to masturbate is up to you but be aware that you may be paying a higher price than the immediate one of frustration. Also, this may affect your future husband and family.

     Comment by chrlr — December 8, 2006 @ 11:20 pm

103. Thanks for being respectful, Chrir–in light of the recent flurry of people lacking respect, your comment comes as quite a breath of fresh air.

     Your comment about neuroscience is interesting–I hadn’t considered the long-term effects of frustration, though the effects of depression certainly have finally received lots of well-needed attention.

     Come back again!

     Comment by Janet — December 8, 2006 @ 11:28 pm

104. In case you want to read the conversation about this on reddit, here s the link:
     http://reddit.com/info/u69m/comments

     I do hope that the people posting here from reddit will show some compassion and stop bashing this woman’s life choices. We don’t all need to agree on what makes life fulfilling because it varies from one person to the next.

     I Feel Like, I hope you meet the man of your dreams soon!

     Comment by A Reddit Reader — December 8, 2006 @ 11:35 pm

105. On second thought, the conversation there is pretty juvenile and inflammatory. You might want to not bother.

     Comment by A Reddit Reader — December 8, 2006 @ 11:39 pm

106. Thanks, Reddit Reader, for asking people to show compassion. That’s really nice of you–you represent the reddit community with integrity.

     Cheers!

     Comment by Janet — December 8, 2006 @ 11:41 pm

107. This is really depressing. I feel like the original poster is being mauled. I don’t suppose you’d consider closing comments for this one, would you Lisa?

     Comment by meems — December 9, 2006 @ 12:45 am

108. closing comments would be good.

     Comment by cory — December 9, 2006 @ 1:14 am

109. Never been kissed—I’m so sorry for the way this degenerated at the end. I’m really, really sorry.

     Comment by Janet — December 9, 2006 @ 1:28 am

110. I wanted to apoligize as well. I wasn’t around last night, so I wasn’t here for all the rest of the fun. I hate closing comments or erasing comments, but since most of them were very simple and thoughtless I went ahead and deleated a bunch. I see no reason why we should store people’s repetative unimaginative ignorant intolerance. I left a few as a reference point (or something) to explain the end drift of the conversation. Maybe I should just erase the whole thing. But like I said, I have a serious knee jerk reaction against erasing stuff.

     For those of you we’ve erased. There are ways to disagree without making yourself into an ugly self-righteous prig. Yes, you can be as much of a prig for saying “you have to have sex” as for saying “sex makes you evil”.

     I welcome comments from (some of) you in the future. But please read our comment policies first. most specifically

     2. As a general matter, (fMh) is a forum for believing members or for others who are willing to respect members’ beliefs. Commenters do not need to believe in the Church, but comments that suggest that all believers are per se unintelligent or uninformed are not welcome.

     3. On the flip side, it is also unacceptable to call into question a commenter’s personal righteousness.

     You break these rules (and most of you did) and you will be erased and banned. No more warnings.

     I have to say I’m a bit disappointed in the quality and intellegence of most of the reddit referalls. I wonder if it’s just the stupids who are making comments or if that is the type reader that reddit attracts.

     Comment by fMhLisa — December 9, 2006 @ 11:59 am

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